June 4, 2025 • 43 mins
Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!
Bestselling author Melissa de la Cruz has published nearly 80 books (yes, 80), and in this episode, she shares what it really takes to build and sustain a long-term writing career. From surviving the shifting tides of publishing to protecting what gets you "in the mood" to write, she shares the kind of wisdom every author loves hearing.
INSIDE THE EPISODE:
• Melissa's advice: Don’t quit your day job until the math says you can
• Success is wonderful; it also resets with every new book
• How to protect your creative hours (8am–1pm, in her case)
• Books are logic puzzles, not lightning strikes (I love this analogy!)
• If social media isn’t fun, don’t do it. Period. (Who's cheering?)
• The final sprint before deadline is where the magic (and panic) often happen
Whether you're writing book 1 or book 71, this episode's packed with truths you'll be grateful for.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game, is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:09):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody and welcome to thisepisode of Write the Damn Book.
Already, melissa de la Cruztruly needs no introduction.
The woman has written almost 80books, 80.
Eight, zero, like eight timesten.
I can't even, I can't even.
And still she has some of thesame thoughts and concerns and
(01:33):
worries that she had way backwhen she was writing the first.
If you're not familiar withMelissa, she's the number one
New York Times, number onePublishers Weekly and number
number one indie boundbestselling, author of many
critically acclaimed andaward-winning novels for readers
of all ages.
Her novel the Isle of the Lost,which is the prequel to the
(01:53):
Disney Channel original movieDescendants, spent more than 50
weeks on the New York Timesbestseller list 15 at number one
and has over a million copiesin print.
She's also known for the BlueBlood series, with 3 million
copies in print, and the Witchesof East End series.
She's also the founder andprincipal of Melissa de la Cruz
Studio at Disney Publishing,which will create and package
(02:16):
books in every genre and agerange, but with a focus on
middle grade and young adult,from a diverse group of new and
established writers that willappeal to all platforms across
the Disney company for a globalaudience.
If you go to her website, whichI've included in the list, she
needs a navigation menu just forall the books and all the
(02:37):
series.
Her latest novel, when StarsAlign I recently started and am,
of course, loving it.
It was published by Mindy'sBook Studio Mindy being Mindy
Kaling, which is an Amazonpublishing imprint.
And, oh my God, I just don'tneed to say any more.
Let's just, let's get on withthis conversation, shall we?
You know, I feel like.
(03:00):
I feel like we're meant to knoweach other now, you and I and
Jordan and I, jordan is, I loveher.
I meant to know each other.
Now, you and I and Jordan and I, jordan is, I love her.
My God, jordan's the best, sheis absolutely the best.
And she said you have to talkto Melissa.
And the funniest thing was aboutmaybe a day later I was
stretching, because when I'm notrolling myself to the
refrigerator, I'm stretching.
(03:20):
That's my version of workingout.
Melissa is stretching, I loveit.
Yeah, so stretching.
And I look over and I see thereis your name on right.
Uh it, it's one of thedescendants.
Rise of the aisle of the lostis sitting right there.
Did I get that title Right?
Cause there's four of them?
So okay, and I thought Irecognize the book, but I it
(03:42):
wasn't for me, it was for myyoungest daughter, who's now 17.
And she was obsessed with theDescendants.
And then I actually learnedyesterday that my ex-husband who
I don't he's my partner inparenting, as I call him because
we're good friends, but he wasobsessed with Descendants and I
thought, oh, there she is.
And then, would you know, justa few days after that, I logged
(04:07):
in and I got my Amazon email forthe first reads and there was
when stars align.
Oh, yay.
Anyway, jordan said you'vewritten 9 million books, and I
don't think she wasn't far off,because what are we at now?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
80 million uh, I know , um, I so I believe stars align
might be my 77th book, becauseI know my 80th book is coming
out this September.
So, um, and it might be my 79th.
I'm trying, I always wonder ifI'm missing something.
We are in May, I believe.
(04:49):
Uh, it might be 79, and thenSeptember is the 80th.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So like it would be fair if you, what do you even do
when people say, um, if theyaren't familiar with you, and
they say so, what have youwritten do?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
you usually say uh, you know, I write for kids
because that's kind of the bulkof you know what I'm known for
and I write for.
Disney is usually, you know, aneasy thing.
And Descendants although atfirst when you say Descendants
you know they were like oh, theGeorge Clooney movie.
So now I say Disney'sDescendants.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Disney's Descendants Two very differentcendants, two
very different vibes there Twovery different, yeah.
So when I was thinking aboutthis this morning, because I
thought, oh my gosh, I could askso many questions, having been
doing this for so long andhaving written so many books,
what if someone were at the verybeginning of their career and
(05:44):
just feeling terrified andconfused and not knowing Like
what?
What would you say?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I would say you know what is your goal.
You know, like do you want toget published?
Do you want to get published?
Do you want to?
You know, is it something whereyou want to make your art and
you want it to be recognized,but you don't necessarily want
or you don't want to compromise,so you know you don't need to
(06:16):
live on it.
Do you want books to be yourmain source of income?
I guess I would say so.
If you want books to be yourmain source of income, I would
say keep your day job for aslong as you can until you know,
um, the writing pays you enoughthat you can live on it.
And I would also say, be veryfrugal.
You know, um, I decided Iwanted to be a full-time writer
(06:39):
and that I could live on much,much less.
So I I was actually a computerconsultant for Morgan Stanley.
I was a computer programmer for10 years and at one point I
actually don't think I actuallyquit my job I think I got laid
off during the recession of 2000.
You know, when print magazineswere dying and and everything
(07:02):
was being laid off, I actuallyjumped from computers to Allure.
So I was at Condé Nast forabout a year.
And then I actually went backto computers, when, you know, I
was going to get a job atMademoiselle but then they
closed the magazine.
So I was like, okay, I'll justgo back to my day job.
And then Morgan Stanley did around of layoffs but by then I'd
(07:23):
sold my first novel and I saidyou know what I can live on this
?
You know, my husband and I wereboth artists.
You know, he was an architect.
And I said let's just do whatwe want to do and not care about
money.
And you know.
So you know you have to careabout money, a little bit, sure,
sure, but you know.
(07:47):
But you know, but you know itwas enough for us to live and to
pursue our dreams.
And I think that you know thatis what I will tell people.
You know, either you have apatron, you know, I think I saw
an interview with BrettDeSanellis and they said what's
your advice for writers?
And he said Mary Rich, you knowhe's hilarious, he's one of my
idols.
So you know, I would say youknow, finances is certainly
something, but I think you knowit's one of my idols.
So you know, I would say youknow, finances is certainly
something, but I think, you know, it's kind of like where are
(08:09):
they in their career, are they?
You know, have they publishedsome things you know, online?
Have they been getting paid towrite?
You know, I would say start offsmall, try to build the
following.
You know, I think Substack is agreat way.
You know, there's just so manyways now that you can publish
yourself and get yourself outthere.
You know, I only sadly know thetraditional route.
(08:31):
I don't really know how writers, you know, make money outside
of that.
You know.
So to me the goal has alwaysbeen you know, a book, a book
contract with one of the bigtraditional publishers, a book
contract with one of the bigtraditional publishers.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
But even that when you first got started, right was
it?
You said you learned or decidedto live frugally.
But was it less than what youthought?
Because what I hear oftentimesand I don't come from the
traditional world, I come fromthe self-publishing world but a
lot of my friends who aretraditionally published will say
yeah, I got a five-figure, high, five, mid to high five figures
(09:05):
, even a low six figure deal,but it was paid out over four
years, minus 15% to my agent,minus taxes, and then all of a
sudden that wasn't really thatmuch.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, you know, it really isn't.
And I was a magazine writer fora long time, so I supplemented
my income that way and then,when I decided that I actually
did want to, you know, justfocus on books, you know, and
the reason I've published 80books this year is because I,
you know, it is the main sourceof my income.
(09:36):
So you actually have to hustle,you know, and that is what you
have to do if you're going to bea full-time writer is that
you're constantly hustling.
And I just had lunch with, youknow, three friends and we all
kind of started I think I, meand Sarah Malinowski probably
started, you know, the oldestlike we both started in the
nineties and, you know, theseother writers probably started
(09:56):
in the two thousands or the2010s, you know, but we've all
been in the game for 15 years ormore and it is just a
continuous hustle, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
I don't love that you're saying that, but I love
that you're saying that.
I think the idea is once I getX number of books or et cetera
under my belt, it's like I'm inthe machine and it just works
for me.
Do you find that you still areout having to do as much
publicity as either you ever did, or more than you would have
thought?
80 books in.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You know it goes up and down.
You have a big hit.
You can kind of coast, you know, which is kind of nice, you
know, and I've had several hitsin my career.
So those, those years are like,oh, you can kind of exhale, you
know, and then it goes away andI, you know, I always tell
writers, you know, especiallypeople who come out of the gate
with these big deals and thisbig publicity and these big
(10:49):
sales, and it kind of goesthrough their head.
I'm like at some point they stopselling and they always do,
especially if you're in thechildren's book world and the YA
world, because turnover is soquick.
Because turnover is so quick,you know.
And but God bless, you knowpeople like Gordon Corman, who's
(11:15):
been publishing since he was 12and he's still publishing and
you know, and he's, you knowhe's hustling out there and you
know.
But I think that's theexception and not the rule.
I think people do think themachine works for them, but
that's not true.
You will have to work for themachine.
There is no rest, really.
There is no rest for the weary.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Does it feel at this point like it's and I use this
word there are so many airquotes, but easy to get the next
deal.
Or do you feel as though everytime you're kind of starting
over, I have a new concept?
You know, when I was talking toJordan about TV and she said it
really doesn't matter how manythings you've done, you've got a
new concept and now you've gotto sell that concept and if it's
(11:54):
not right or wrong place, wrongtime, wrong people, wrong
everything, it just isn't goingto go.
It doesn't necessarily meanit's not a great concept.
Do you feel that way every timeyou have a new concept to
present?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
You're only as good as your last hit.
So if your book was a hit,everybody wants to take your
meeting.
Everybody's excited to see you.
You know I didn't understandthat, especially in Hollywood,
when I first had my big hit andyou know I was offered to show a
Nickelodeon which I turned downbecause my daughter was just
born.
I was like I don't really wantto go to Vancouver, thinking, oh
(12:28):
my God, you know this happensall the time.
I'll get another show and itreally does not happen like that
at all.
You know, strike when the ironis hot and when you're on top of
the world and everybody wantsto take your meeting and buy
your book.
You know it's the time to sell.
Other than that, they're goingto bring up all those sales
figures and they will show you,you know, how much you have cost
(12:49):
them and you know so it is adance, it's a game, but I would
say the easier you are to workwith, the more dependable you
are.
I mean all these kinds of boringthings at any job.
You know showing up for when.
You know I've gone to festivalsand I've been there with my
publicist and she had anotherauthor she was publicizing and
(13:10):
the author just said shecouldn't make it, didn't get on
her plane, I don't know, hadsome kind of.
And the publicist said here Iam at 500 books.
This is so unprofessional.
And I said, yeah, you know, andI've seen that, I've seen
authors, you know, just flakeout on a lot of things.
And I think maybe they thinkthat because either it's like
(13:32):
your part time job or it's a jobthat you do on the weekends
because promotions are usuallyon the weekends for book
festivals that it's not takenseriously.
But it actually is.
You know, people come out, theyhave sent your book there, your
publicist is there.
So you know, I think that youknow, being very dependable and
being very easy to work with haskept me in this career, when,
(13:58):
when you know, let's say,there's like a little bit of a
fallow period between hits, butyou, you always need to hit if
you want to stay in the game,100%.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Well, and it sounds like to stay humble too.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
You know that definitely helps.
I mean, it doesn't hurt to behumble, it doesn't hurt to know
everybody's name, it doesn'thurt to remember that this is
the job.
They don't work for you, theywork for the company.
I think that you know, but Ithink it does go to your head.
I mean, certainly, the firsttime I had a huge hit, my head
(14:31):
was humongous Really.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Which one was that what?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
was the first when Blue Bloods, during the vampire
you know the vampire years whenTwilight was big and Blue Bloods
was big and you know I justremember being so haughty and my
husband said, yeah, you werekind of terrible and I thought
we were gonna have this huge TVshow.
And it's so funny because wewere in competition.
(14:58):
Not in competition they do alot of parallel development
which I did not know.
I didn't know that WarnerBrothers was actually developing
two vampire shows at the sametime.
One was Blue Bloods and one wasthe Vampire Diaries.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I was just going to say was it the Vampire?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Diaries and they chose the Vampire Diaries
because Kevin Williamson was theshowrunner.
And I always say, if KevinWilliamson was our showrunner,
blue Bloods would be on TV andwhoever wrote the Vampire
Diaries would be right hereright now.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
That show was dead to me.
That was my time.
We will not talk about that.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
We will not mention that.
But you know it's all good.
You can't let it get to yourhead and you can't define
yourself by your career.
Like that weighs madness.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Do you the?
The YA in the children's spaceis notoriously challenging for
the.
What do you think are thebiggest reasons for that,
besides what you've already said, which is high turnover, and is
there anything else that makesthat it?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
actually was not.
Ya when I started was a lotmore dependable and adult, so
much more cutthroat.
I think what's happened is thatYA is now like adult.
So when I started in YA in 2002, it was one bookshelf at the
bookstore and so there were veryfew books that were being
(16:17):
published.
So when you published your YAor children's book, it would
stay on the shelves for a verylong time and, you know, it just
gave you a lot more.
You know you just got morechances for it to find an
audience, whereas when Ipublished my adult book my first
book was actually for adultsyou got two weeks on that shelf
and if it did not move you wereout.
You know, and YA now being sucha huge genre also being read by
(16:41):
adults, it is now just like theadult market, which is, you
know, a lot more cutthroat forsure.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Was there a turning point with that?
Do you think?
Like was Harry Potter?
Perhaps?
Absolutely like was HarryPotter, perhaps absolutely okay.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Harry Potter is the reason we all have jobs.
You know, we all get thoseadvances.
I I mean you know, I, whateveryou know has happened, uh, with
JK Rowling.
You have to acknowledge that.
You know she created this, uh,this genre, this space, this
kind of you know, financiallyand in the readers for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Well, I just don't.
From what I can remember, noone expected Harry Potter to be
beloved by 90 year olds as wellas nine year olds.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, I mean it was rejected by like 30 publishers,
right.
I mean that's why it's likenobody really knows what makes a
hit.
You know it's the same thing inbooks as it is in movies and TV
shows.
You know everybody works reallyhard and either it hits or it
doesn't.
You just kind of get lucky.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Did you ever have, or do you ever have, what I call a
should book where someone says,ok, melissa, you should do this
, because if you just did thisit would go really really well?
And try to move you.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
You're shaking your head, but no, I would say that
I've done everything.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I don't have a book that's not written.
Never say never's.
Just curious to me.
When people have that kind ofsuccess, it's a business, right?
So if someone, you strike me asa pretty strong personality and
in the sense that you know whatyou want to do and that's what
(18:32):
you want to do.
So how do you keep coming upwith concepts?
Are you incredibly?
You're obviously incrediblyimaginative, but how do you come
up with the next?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
concept.
I like novelty and I liketrends and I like what people
are into.
I think I like you know, I likebestsellers people are into.
I think I like you know, I likebestsellers.
I think a lot of artists seethemselves as kind of outsiders,
or you know, and I always saythat, you know, if you want to
write and I always wanted towrite commercial fiction because
(19:04):
I love commercial fiction, Ilove.
But I love literary fiction too.
I mean, without a doubt, youknow what's the difference for
you, how do you define it?
I mean, I guess you knowliterary and literary fiction is
a genre.
You know what's the differencefor you.
How do you define it?
I mean, I guess you knowliterary and literary fiction is
a genre.
You know now in like thecontemporary.
But you know, like I grew uploving, you know my favorite
(19:25):
book is war and peace.
You know that is my absolutefavorite book.
I'm like very much inspired by,you know, the characters in it,
the romance in it.
You know it got me out of ahuge depression.
But I also grew up loving, youknow, stephen King.
He was like my favorite authorgrowing up.
I mean, who's more commercialthan Stephen King?
(19:47):
You know Right.
So I think I'm just interestedin a lot of things and I'm
interested in what people areinterested in and I think when
you're open to that, you know,and also I'm kind of allowed,
because I'm in YA, to be able towrite several different genres.
You know I've written thrillers, I've written natural, I've
written fantasy, portal fantasy,second world fantasy.
(20:10):
You know I've writtenchildren's books.
So so I think being in inchildren's allowed me to do a
lot of different genres and sowhen I do that in adult, it's
not like, oh, you've never donethat.
I was like well, I did that inYA, why can't I do it for adults
?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You said War and Peace got you out of a
depression.
Oh, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
I was like I read War and Peace at one point just to
say I had read it and I was like, okay, I think I need to read
(20:50):
it again Because there was war,then there was peace and there
was war, like it, the most aptlytitled book, possibly.
Possibly it was how he talkedabout families and how he talked
about the love between siblings, like you know, like really, um
, uh, katerina and her brotherNikolai, like that relationship
and that book is so wonderfuland even like how wise it was
about, um, you know, kind ofabout people in the world.
(21:11):
You know, my favorite characteris Katerina, katya, and
something about her.
She's, you know, it's like towhom much is given, more is
given, you know, because she wasso privileged and she was so
beloved and so she was so loving, whereas, you know, contrast
that with Sonia, who was alwayskind of, you know, you know like
(21:33):
, oh, the poor girl, the poorrelative, and we were supposed
to feel bad for her.
It was it kind of turned out onthe on its head, like because
Sonia always felt lesser thanshe was, lesser, you know, in
her own mind also.
And Nikolai doesn't end up withher spoiler, you know, he ends
up right, yeah, um and uh, andyou know, and Katerina says
something about that.
(21:54):
You know, she always thoughtless and so I just wanted that
abundance.
I think it is also that likekind of you know thinking of
abundantly.
So I actually named.
My daughter is named mateakatherine after katarina.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So no kidding my.
So one of my favorite books isanna karenina and'm starting to
think right, so it's.
I have three favorites I, andthat's one of them.
And my grandfather, who passedaway, gosh, I want to say about
15 years ago, had a leatherbound edition of Anna Karenina
(22:26):
and it just sits.
I'm almost afraid to open itbecause I just it's beloved to
me, but I want to read it againfrom there.
Because it's beloved to me, butI want to read it again from
there.
And now you've got me thinkingabout whether or not there are
sort of subconscious reasons whyI loved that book that I don't
realize.
Have you read the Covenant ofWater?
Okay, Abraham Verghese, so it'snewer, I mean it's in the last
(22:53):
couple of years.
But when I think literaryfiction, for some reason that's
the book that first pops into mymind.
And I have to read literaryfiction very slowly.
Yeah, Do you read things in adifferent way?
Do you immerse yourself in itin different genres, in
different ways?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I think that it has to be something that keeps me
turning the pages, so boring Iput it down, you know.
You know, certainly someliterary fiction is very
compelling and easy to read andfun, you know, fun to get into
it.
I've not read that book, youknow, if it looks too boring I'm
not going to read it.
But okay, I'm trying to get youit.
Um, I've not read that book,you know, if it looks too boring
I'm not gonna read it.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
But okay, um, trying to think yet you are in war and
peace, because I think that'sthe funny thing about that is.
I think so many people wouldsay I was so bored yeah, no,
it's not boring at all.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Well, it's like the war stuff is boring.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I mean you can well, that agreed.
And I had to keep going back tothat damn map.
Yeah, I was like where are we?
Like, thank God there's anindex of characters and a map at
the beginning, like now we haveto have maps in books that have
world building.
But we, I legit needed the map.
Yeah, and the map of characters, like who is whom?
I cannot, I cannot, I justcannot.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
It's easy to keep track of Andre, katya, you know,
pierre and Nikolai, it's toomuch.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Well, I took a Russian lit class, which was
strange, in college and it wasone of my favorite classes.
It was strange because whosigns up for a Russian lit class
?
But I did and I can still seemy professor.
I mean, we won't talk about howmany years ago it was, but I
can't remember her name, but Ican see her and it was the most
fascinating class because shewas so passionate about Russian
(24:41):
literature and about Russianauthors.
It was just incredibly.
What's your favorite thing toread?
Do you have one?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Cooking memoirs.
I love cooking.
Stop it Because I I mean, I kindof cook.
You know, my daughter kind oflike shamed me into cooking, you
know, and she wantedhome-cooked meals instead of
Postmates.
I think, uh, one of theKardashians showed her Postmates
bill and think ours was higher,so it was like, oh my god, you
(25:07):
know, um, so I, but I love thefantasy of cooking, you you know
, and I love about, you know,ruth Reichel or MFK Fisher, or
you know, I mean any cookingmemoir I will read.
You know, restaurant memoirs,wine memoirs, you know anything
with food, people making them,you know, and all the drama
(25:29):
behind it, you know, it'sdefinitely even the recipes you
know.
So great, so great to thinkI'll do it one day.
I never do.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Okay.
Well, I feel I I'm like a bigold Pinterest fail waiting to
happen with every, every recipeon the planet, cause I see it
and I think okay let's go, let'sdo it, and I just am not.
I'm not terribly good at it, asall of my children will attest
(25:58):
to that fact.
I'm also just.
I don't love it.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
I find it relaxing, but I don't like the prep for it
.
You know, because you actuallyhave to go to the grocery store
and you have to cut it all upand then you know, and then you
actually have to cook it.
I told my daughter I was likeI'm going to have a dinner party
and maybe I'll cook becauseI've been cooking for the family
.
And my daughter was likehorrified.
She was like you can cook forme and daddy, but not for other
(26:24):
people.
Mom, why would you subject themto your cooking?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I was like okay, I guess we won't do that, I, I.
It makes me question, like thesous chef, the guy or gal who's
in there just choppingeverything, I think what, if
I've cut one carrot, I'm done,that's exactly right, I don't.
And when they say cut thecarrot like matchsticks.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Oh yeah, no, that's not going to happen.
I'm out.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Now, if you bring it to me and it's already cut like
matchsticks, I could get into it.
Yeah, but is there?
So is there a favorite cookingmemoir that you just you read
and you just thought oh man.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Um, I loved, uh, giuliana Malucci's I loved I
lost, I made spaghetti becauseit's about it's kind of like a
sex in the city dating memoir,um, but also about her mom and
actually the recipes areactually really easy.
Um, it's like italian uhrecipes.
So, yeah, I loved I lost, Imade spaghetti one of my
(27:23):
favorites and the recipes aregreat.
I've made the meatballs.
I actually was able to makethem and it actually turned out
well.
I think I made them twice in mylife.
Yeah, but anything Ruth Reichelwrites come for me with apples
is amazing.
I'm always-.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I've heard of none of these, I think.
Clearly I stay away from therecipe section of the bookstore.
That is not for me, I guessMaybe I I don't know.
Do you think I'd get more intoit if I read the backstory?
Do you like watching it on TV?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yes, I also like watching it, for sure.
Yes, I love the food channel.
I love any kind of cooking show.
I love is it cake when you knowon Netflix, where the host cuts
it is it cake and my husbandand I were like it's cake or
it's not cake a cake and myhusband and I were like it's
cake or it's not cake.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
So it's very clear that the cakes I bake are in
fact cake and shouldn't be.
That's kind of how.
There's a new one I just saw.
I can't remember what streamingservice it's on, but it's like
a documentary of four different,and one of them is Alice Waters
, who I'm, or is it Alice?
Is that?
Am I saying that right, becauseI feel like it's.
Is she a chef?
Okay, I feel like I'm.
Isn't there an author namedAlice?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I think there is an author also, but I don't know
Right Chez Panisse Alice Waters.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yes, yes, okay With the salads.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, with the salad, the fancy, we went to Chez
Panisse when did we go Justrecently actually.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
It was.
Did we go just recently?
Actually it was cool.
Well, the way she talks aboutsalad and then I, I go and I
make my salad and I maybe I justit's because Alice needs to
make my salad.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I think Alice needs to make all of our you know all
of our salads.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I feel like I would eat so much better if someone
like that.
Okay, I digress.
So what keeps you?
Is it your love of writing thatkeeps you in the space and
keeps you producing more andmore?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
like what keeps you here yeah, I, you know, even
though you know it's so funny,you always have to remember
you're living your dream right.
And you know, seeing my author,friends we were all like why
the f do we do this?
It's's so hard, it's sostressful, I mean.
And then the hustle and grindof it all, and then you realize,
you know, when you're writing astory, it is really fun.
(29:45):
And what would I do?
I mean, I just entertain myself.
You know, I like being alone, Ilike making up things, I like
figuring out puzzles, you know,because a book is like a logic
puzzle and if you have no storycoherence, nobody understands it
.
And then if you do it right,people take it for granted.
But it's actually one of thehardest things to do.
(30:06):
So I think I like the mentalchallenge of it and then I like
just being left alone with myimagination.
So yeah, I actually do likethat with my imagination.
So yeah, I actually do likethat, you know.
And I think I didn't realizethat being an author means also
being promoting and traveling.
And I love talking to readers,I love meeting my readers.
(30:28):
That is really really fun andactually makes me feel better
about what I'm doing, becauseyou remember that there's
actually people reading it.
I think, you know, book toursare really exhausting so I don't
look forward to them.
So it's kind of like I justkind of get through them and you
know, and then I come home andbe like thank God, but you know,
(30:49):
but yeah, you know, and also Ihave my mortgage and you know I
send the kid to college and youknow it was a job.
So there's that.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
What a great point that when you read a great book,
it's easy to think how hard canthis be?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Right, without recognizing that that person
9000 drafts later.
That's where they ended up.
Yeah, what's your process for?
Do you write it quickly andthen have people review it beta
readers or what's your processnow?
How has that evolved?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
So my husband and I work together.
You know my name is on them,but you know we actually work on
the books pretty, I mean prettycollaborative, I mean it's like
50, 50, 50.
So, uh, we usually come up withthe concepts together, um,
sometimes it's his concept,sometimes it's mine.
He's also published seven booksunder his own name.
(31:47):
We've published three underboth of our names and then the
majority is under my name.
But we, we work on all of themtogether.
So we kind of talk it out andthen I'll write the first kind
of like you know kind ofproposal that we sell, and then,
um, and then usually he and Iwrite the outline together.
Sometimes he writes the wholeoutline, sometimes I write the
(32:08):
whole outline, and then we justkind of trade it back and forth.
You know, he's usually um, agreat you know idea generator,
and I'm usually the one who sayswhether the marketplace will
buy it.
I'll be like, oh, I can usethat and I think I can sell it
here, you know.
And then I'm usually the end,I'm like the polisher and the
one who kind of takes it intoproduction.
So so, yeah, so that's how wework and you know, it's kind of
(32:33):
it's easy and difficult becauseyou know we're business partners
writing partners and's kind of.
It's easy and difficult becauseyou know we're business
partners writing partners andwe're married and we're parents.
So you know sometimes it's liketoo much.
You know we have a lot of timetogether.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Right.
So I'm hearing plotter.
Are you more of a plot?
You guys are plotting, oryou're plotting Absolutely
Before you're writing?
Are you right every day?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Not every day.
You know my Tuesdays are myzoom days Every day if the
deadline is there.
So if the deadline is about twoweeks out, you know, that's
kind of when I started cancelingall my plans.
We I start just staying at home.
You know it is the writing cave, got to get that book into
production and and that's whenyou know those really long
(33:26):
writing writing hours aresometimes that's actually when
the book really happens.
You know, I think MaggieStiefvater has talked about that
.
She's like you can write, write, write.
But like that last, you knowtwo weeks, that last month is
really kind of when the bookcomes alive and it's really
exciting because you've kind offigured it out and then you're
just right, you know you're noteven counting words anymore
because you actually know thestory, so you're just trying to
get it down.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, Are you someone who does?
Can you do 15 minute incrementsor do you need four hours?
Does it vary?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I usually work from like 8am to about 1pm creatively
, which means like I try not toanswer emails, I try not to
answer the phone, I try not todo any non writing work.
So I just have that block oftime to really focus.
So I think that you know isreally you know really getting
into the flow and kind of thedeep work of it.
(34:17):
And then after lunch is when Ianswer emails and do all the
admin and kind of work ondomestic, what's for dinner and
all that.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And who's going to put the carrots into matchsticks
?
Exactly, not me.
Yeah, not me.
Do you spend a lot of time onsocial media?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
uh, not really.
I mean yes and no.
You know I I always tellauthors like to do it if it's
fun, so I'll do it if it's fun,you know, and you know like, oh,
I look cute there.
Or like, oh, this is a photo ofmy friends and we'll post this,
oh, we should promote, shouldpromote the book.
I don't know, maybe as a GenXer I just that whole, like
(35:04):
blasting the sound of your owntrumpet, is just really hard.
But I actually think youactually do have to do it.
So I'm trying to do a lot morenow.
I used to have a lot moreassistants before COVID.
So I had, and I still have, asocial media assistant.
But I had somebody who wouldcome here and kind of help me
with the admin and help run.
(35:24):
You know all the fan lettersand all that.
And now it's just me and youknow, so it's kind of random.
So I always say this newsletteryou'll get randomly when I have
something to say, I'll let youknow.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, last question I always ask is what are you
reading now, or what have youread recently, besides War and
Peace, that you really loved?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Oh, that I really loved.
I really loved Legends andLattes by Travis I can't
remember his last name, I canlook it up uh, legends and
Lattes which is a cozy fantasyabout a female orc who, uh,
retires and opens a coffee shopand it is so fun.
(36:10):
You know I'm a fantasy junkie.
Uh, you know I love Lord of theRings, so it's basically, you
know, kind of in that world of,like, orcs and wizards and all
that, but it's really just aboutopening a coffee shop and it's
so great.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
I loved it.
You said you've now said ittwice, so you confirmed it.
But I was like did she just sayorc and orc opened a coffee
shop?
You can write anything?
Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I love anything about acoffee shop, so anything else,
any other books that you've?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
What else have I read lately?
I've been reading a lot ofromance I read.
So I have a big adultromanticist which is coming out
in September called Rings ofFate, and it's my first adult
romanticist.
It's uh, it's Lord of the Ringswith sex, so check it out.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
So I've never been into really Lord of the Rings,
but if you add in the set likelet's, let's go.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
It's a well, my publisher is is calling it the
princess.
Bride means time, so it's kindof a bantering couple.
So, uh, and I was reading a lotof romance.
Anyway, I was reading a lot ofBridgerton.
So the Bridgeton, theBridgerton series is amazing.
It's so fun, it is so much funto read.
Um, it is just a, you know,reading pleasure.
(37:32):
I haven't really read anythingthat I would love.
I read things that I was likekind of may about, so I'm not
going to talk about those books.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Right, sure we can.
Yeah, we can keep that on thedown low.
What did you say?
Your publisher, princess Bride,meets what?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
A Wheel of Time which is like a Lord of the Rings.
I guess they didn't want to useLord of the Rings, so it's
Princess Bride meets Wheel ofTime.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Okay that, and is it a series or is it a standalone?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
It is a series it is a series.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Okay, oh, I'm excited .
I never thought I'd say I'mexcited for something that, but
I am.
I'm excited, Melissa.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
It is fun.
It's about a snarky barmaid who, you know, doesn't think she'll
ever fall in love or was everworthy of love, and a handsome
prince with a terrible secret.
And it's just so fun to watchthem fall in love.
It was so fun to write.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I can't wait.
Well, thank you so much forcreating the time and being.
You've inspired me.
I feel like I want to gowallpaper something.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Oh yes, this is the.
I think it's actually zebras,oh it is.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Oh, I can see it now, okay.
Yes, it's the zebras.
Oh it is.
Oh, I can see it now, okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
It's the Maasai wallpaper from Scalabandra
Scalabandra.
Okay, I will look, oh my gosh,the Royal Tenenbaums.
I think had like the red zebras, so it comes in red green.
I went with the gold.
It's a black and gold office.
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I went with the gold.
It's a black and gold office.
Yeah, I love it.
It's great, like I'm reallyfeeling inspired.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thank you so much.
I wish we had renovateddownstairs so my closet could be
out of here.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Well, in time, in time, oh, my gosh Thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Thank you so much for having me.
This was so much fun.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
(39:36):
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game, is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:09):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody and welcome to thisepisode of Write the Damn Book.
Already, melissa de la Cruztruly needs no introduction.
The woman has written almost 80books, 80.
Eight, zero, like eight timesten.
I can't even, I can't even.
And still she has some of thesame thoughts and concerns and
(01:33):
worries that she had way backwhen she was writing the first.
If you're not familiar withMelissa, she's the number one
New York Times, number onePublishers Weekly and number
number one indie boundbestselling, author of many
critically acclaimed andaward-winning novels for readers
of all ages.
Her novel the Isle of the Lost,which is the prequel to the
(01:53):
Disney Channel original movieDescendants, spent more than 50
weeks on the New York Timesbestseller list 15 at number one
and has over a million copiesin print.
She's also known for the BlueBlood series, with 3 million
copies in print, and the Witchesof East End series.
She's also the founder andprincipal of Melissa de la Cruz
Studio at Disney Publishing,which will create and package
(02:16):
books in every genre and agerange, but with a focus on
middle grade and young adult,from a diverse group of new and
established writers that willappeal to all platforms across
the Disney company for a globalaudience.
If you go to her website, whichI've included in the list, she
needs a navigation menu just forall the books and all the
(02:37):
series.
Her latest novel, when StarsAlign I recently started and am,
of course, loving it.
It was published by Mindy'sBook Studio Mindy being Mindy
Kaling, which is an Amazonpublishing imprint.
And, oh my God, I just don'tneed to say any more.
Let's just, let's get on withthis conversation, shall we?
You know, I feel like.
(03:00):
I feel like we're meant to knoweach other now, you and I and
Jordan and I, jordan is, I loveher.
I meant to know each other.
Now, you and I and Jordan and I, jordan is, I love her.
My God, jordan's the best, sheis absolutely the best.
And she said you have to talkto Melissa.
And the funniest thing was aboutmaybe a day later I was
stretching, because when I'm notrolling myself to the
refrigerator, I'm stretching.
(03:20):
That's my version of workingout.
Melissa is stretching, I loveit.
Yeah, so stretching.
And I look over and I see thereis your name on right.
Uh it, it's one of thedescendants.
Rise of the aisle of the lostis sitting right there.
Did I get that title Right?
Cause there's four of them?
So okay, and I thought Irecognize the book, but I it
(03:42):
wasn't for me, it was for myyoungest daughter, who's now 17.
And she was obsessed with theDescendants.
And then I actually learnedyesterday that my ex-husband who
I don't he's my partner inparenting, as I call him because
we're good friends, but he wasobsessed with Descendants and I
thought, oh, there she is.
And then, would you know, justa few days after that, I logged
(04:07):
in and I got my Amazon email forthe first reads and there was
when stars align.
Oh, yay.
Anyway, jordan said you'vewritten 9 million books, and I
don't think she wasn't far off,because what are we at now?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
80 million uh, I know , um, I so I believe stars align
might be my 77th book, becauseI know my 80th book is coming
out this September.
So, um, and it might be my 79th.
I'm trying, I always wonder ifI'm missing something.
We are in May, I believe.
(04:49):
Uh, it might be 79, and thenSeptember is the 80th.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So like it would be fair if you, what do you even do
when people say, um, if theyaren't familiar with you, and
they say so, what have youwritten do?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
you usually say uh, you know, I write for kids
because that's kind of the bulkof you know what I'm known for
and I write for.
Disney is usually, you know, aneasy thing.
And Descendants although atfirst when you say Descendants
you know they were like oh, theGeorge Clooney movie.
So now I say Disney'sDescendants.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Disney's Descendants Two very differentcendants, two
very different vibes there Twovery different, yeah.
So when I was thinking aboutthis this morning, because I
thought, oh my gosh, I could askso many questions, having been
doing this for so long andhaving written so many books,
what if someone were at the verybeginning of their career and
(05:44):
just feeling terrified andconfused and not knowing Like
what?
What would you say?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I would say you know what is your goal.
You know, like do you want toget published?
Do you want to get published?
Do you want to?
You know, is it something whereyou want to make your art and
you want it to be recognized,but you don't necessarily want
or you don't want to compromise,so you know you don't need to
(06:16):
live on it.
Do you want books to be yourmain source of income?
I guess I would say so.
If you want books to be yourmain source of income, I would
say keep your day job for aslong as you can until you know,
um, the writing pays you enoughthat you can live on it.
And I would also say, be veryfrugal.
You know, um, I decided Iwanted to be a full-time writer
(06:39):
and that I could live on much,much less.
So I I was actually a computerconsultant for Morgan Stanley.
I was a computer programmer for10 years and at one point I
actually don't think I actuallyquit my job I think I got laid
off during the recession of 2000.
You know, when print magazineswere dying and and everything
(07:02):
was being laid off, I actuallyjumped from computers to Allure.
So I was at Condé Nast forabout a year.
And then I actually went backto computers, when, you know, I
was going to get a job atMademoiselle but then they
closed the magazine.
So I was like, okay, I'll justgo back to my day job.
And then Morgan Stanley did around of layoffs but by then I'd
(07:23):
sold my first novel and I saidyou know what I can live on this
?
You know, my husband and I wereboth artists.
You know, he was an architect.
And I said let's just do whatwe want to do and not care about
money.
And you know.
So you know you have to careabout money, a little bit, sure,
sure, but you know.
(07:47):
But you know, but you know itwas enough for us to live and to
pursue our dreams.
And I think that you know thatis what I will tell people.
You know, either you have apatron, you know, I think I saw
an interview with BrettDeSanellis and they said what's
your advice for writers?
And he said Mary Rich, you knowhe's hilarious, he's one of my
idols.
So you know, I would say youknow, finances is certainly
something, but I think you knowit's one of my idols.
So you know, I would say youknow, finances is certainly
something, but I think, you know, it's kind of like where are
(08:09):
they in their career, are they?
You know, have they publishedsome things you know, online?
Have they been getting paid towrite?
You know, I would say start offsmall, try to build the
following.
You know, I think Substack is agreat way.
You know, there's just so manyways now that you can publish
yourself and get yourself outthere.
You know, I only sadly know thetraditional route.
(08:31):
I don't really know how writers, you know, make money outside
of that.
You know.
So to me the goal has alwaysbeen you know, a book, a book
contract with one of the bigtraditional publishers, a book
contract with one of the bigtraditional publishers.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
But even that when you first got started, right was
it?
You said you learned or decidedto live frugally.
But was it less than what youthought?
Because what I hear oftentimesand I don't come from the
traditional world, I come fromthe self-publishing world but a
lot of my friends who aretraditionally published will say
yeah, I got a five-figure, high, five, mid to high five figures
(09:05):
, even a low six figure deal,but it was paid out over four
years, minus 15% to my agent,minus taxes, and then all of a
sudden that wasn't really thatmuch.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, you know, it really isn't.
And I was a magazine writer fora long time, so I supplemented
my income that way and then,when I decided that I actually
did want to, you know, justfocus on books, you know, and
the reason I've published 80books this year is because I,
you know, it is the main sourceof my income.
(09:36):
So you actually have to hustle,you know, and that is what you
have to do if you're going to bea full-time writer is that
you're constantly hustling.
And I just had lunch with, youknow, three friends and we all
kind of started I think I, meand Sarah Malinowski probably
started, you know, the oldestlike we both started in the
nineties and, you know, theseother writers probably started
(09:56):
in the two thousands or the2010s, you know, but we've all
been in the game for 15 years ormore and it is just a
continuous hustle, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
I don't love that you're saying that, but I love
that you're saying that.
I think the idea is once I getX number of books or et cetera
under my belt, it's like I'm inthe machine and it just works
for me.
Do you find that you still areout having to do as much
publicity as either you ever did, or more than you would have
thought?
80 books in.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
You know it goes up and down.
You have a big hit.
You can kind of coast, you know, which is kind of nice, you
know, and I've had several hitsin my career.
So those, those years are like,oh, you can kind of exhale, you
know, and then it goes away andI, you know, I always tell
writers, you know, especiallypeople who come out of the gate
with these big deals and thisbig publicity and these big
(10:49):
sales, and it kind of goesthrough their head.
I'm like at some point they stopselling and they always do,
especially if you're in thechildren's book world and the YA
world, because turnover is soquick.
Because turnover is so quick,you know.
And but God bless, you knowpeople like Gordon Corman, who's
(11:15):
been publishing since he was 12and he's still publishing and
you know, and he's, you knowhe's hustling out there and you
know.
But I think that's theexception and not the rule.
I think people do think themachine works for them, but
that's not true.
You will have to work for themachine.
There is no rest, really.
There is no rest for the weary.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Does it feel at this point like it's and I use this
word there are so many airquotes, but easy to get the next
deal.
Or do you feel as though everytime you're kind of starting
over, I have a new concept?
You know, when I was talking toJordan about TV and she said it
really doesn't matter how manythings you've done, you've got a
new concept and now you've gotto sell that concept and if it's
(11:54):
not right or wrong place, wrongtime, wrong people, wrong
everything, it just isn't goingto go.
It doesn't necessarily meanit's not a great concept.
Do you feel that way every timeyou have a new concept to
present?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
You're only as good as your last hit.
So if your book was a hit,everybody wants to take your
meeting.
Everybody's excited to see you.
You know I didn't understandthat, especially in Hollywood,
when I first had my big hit andyou know I was offered to show a
Nickelodeon which I turned downbecause my daughter was just
born.
I was like I don't really wantto go to Vancouver, thinking, oh
(12:28):
my God, you know this happensall the time.
I'll get another show and itreally does not happen like that
at all.
You know, strike when the ironis hot and when you're on top of
the world and everybody wantsto take your meeting and buy
your book.
You know it's the time to sell.
Other than that, they're goingto bring up all those sales
figures and they will show you,you know, how much you have cost
(12:49):
them and you know so it is adance, it's a game, but I would
say the easier you are to workwith, the more dependable you
are.
I mean all these kinds of boringthings at any job.
You know showing up for when.
You know I've gone to festivalsand I've been there with my
publicist and she had anotherauthor she was publicizing and
(13:10):
the author just said shecouldn't make it, didn't get on
her plane, I don't know, hadsome kind of.
And the publicist said here Iam at 500 books.
This is so unprofessional.
And I said, yeah, you know, andI've seen that, I've seen
authors, you know, just flakeout on a lot of things.
And I think maybe they thinkthat because either it's like
(13:32):
your part time job or it's a jobthat you do on the weekends
because promotions are usuallyon the weekends for book
festivals that it's not takenseriously.
But it actually is.
You know, people come out, theyhave sent your book there, your
publicist is there.
So you know, I think that youknow, being very dependable and
being very easy to work with haskept me in this career, when,
(13:58):
when you know, let's say,there's like a little bit of a
fallow period between hits, butyou, you always need to hit if
you want to stay in the game,100%.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Well, and it sounds like to stay humble too.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
You know that definitely helps.
I mean, it doesn't hurt to behumble, it doesn't hurt to know
everybody's name, it doesn'thurt to remember that this is
the job.
They don't work for you, theywork for the company.
I think that you know, but Ithink it does go to your head.
I mean, certainly, the firsttime I had a huge hit, my head
(14:31):
was humongous Really.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Which one was that what?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
was the first when Blue Bloods, during the vampire
you know the vampire years whenTwilight was big and Blue Bloods
was big and you know I justremember being so haughty and my
husband said, yeah, you werekind of terrible and I thought
we were gonna have this huge TVshow.
And it's so funny because wewere in competition.
(14:58):
Not in competition they do alot of parallel development
which I did not know.
I didn't know that WarnerBrothers was actually developing
two vampire shows at the sametime.
One was Blue Bloods and one wasthe Vampire Diaries.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I was just going to say was it the Vampire?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Diaries and they chose the Vampire Diaries
because Kevin Williamson was theshowrunner.
And I always say, if KevinWilliamson was our showrunner,
blue Bloods would be on TV andwhoever wrote the Vampire
Diaries would be right hereright now.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
That show was dead to me.
That was my time.
We will not talk about that.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
We will not mention that.
But you know it's all good.
You can't let it get to yourhead and you can't define
yourself by your career.
Like that weighs madness.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Do you the?
The YA in the children's spaceis notoriously challenging for
the.
What do you think are thebiggest reasons for that,
besides what you've already said, which is high turnover, and is
there anything else that makesthat it?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
actually was not.
Ya when I started was a lotmore dependable and adult, so
much more cutthroat.
I think what's happened is thatYA is now like adult.
So when I started in YA in 2002, it was one bookshelf at the
bookstore and so there were veryfew books that were being
(16:17):
published.
So when you published your YAor children's book, it would
stay on the shelves for a verylong time and, you know, it just
gave you a lot more.
You know you just got morechances for it to find an
audience, whereas when Ipublished my adult book my first
book was actually for adultsyou got two weeks on that shelf
and if it did not move you wereout.
You know, and YA now being sucha huge genre also being read by
(16:41):
adults, it is now just like theadult market, which is, you
know, a lot more cutthroat forsure.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Was there a turning point with that?
Do you think?
Like was Harry Potter?
Perhaps?
Absolutely like was HarryPotter, perhaps absolutely okay.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Harry Potter is the reason we all have jobs.
You know, we all get thoseadvances.
I I mean you know, I, whateveryou know has happened, uh, with
JK Rowling.
You have to acknowledge that.
You know she created this, uh,this genre, this space, this
kind of you know, financiallyand in the readers for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Well, I just don't.
From what I can remember, noone expected Harry Potter to be
beloved by 90 year olds as wellas nine year olds.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, I mean it was rejected by like 30 publishers,
right.
I mean that's why it's likenobody really knows what makes a
hit.
You know it's the same thing inbooks as it is in movies and TV
shows.
You know everybody works reallyhard and either it hits or it
doesn't.
You just kind of get lucky.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Did you ever have, or do you ever have, what I call a
should book where someone says,ok, melissa, you should do this
, because if you just did thisit would go really really well?
And try to move you.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
You're shaking your head, but no, I would say that
I've done everything.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I don't have a book that's not written.
Never say never's.
Just curious to me.
When people have that kind ofsuccess, it's a business, right?
So if someone, you strike me asa pretty strong personality and
in the sense that you know whatyou want to do and that's what
(18:32):
you want to do.
So how do you keep coming upwith concepts?
Are you incredibly?
You're obviously incrediblyimaginative, but how do you come
up with the next?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
concept.
I like novelty and I liketrends and I like what people
are into.
I think I like you know, I likebestsellers people are into.
I think I like you know, I likebestsellers.
I think a lot of artists seethemselves as kind of outsiders,
or you know, and I always saythat, you know, if you want to
write and I always wanted towrite commercial fiction because
(19:04):
I love commercial fiction, Ilove.
But I love literary fiction too.
I mean, without a doubt, youknow what's the difference for
you, how do you define it?
I mean, I guess you knowliterary and literary fiction is
a genre.
You know what's the differencefor you.
How do you define it?
I mean, I guess you knowliterary and literary fiction is
a genre.
You know now in like thecontemporary.
But you know, like I grew uploving, you know my favorite
(19:25):
book is war and peace.
You know that is my absolutefavorite book.
I'm like very much inspired by,you know, the characters in it,
the romance in it.
You know it got me out of ahuge depression.
But I also grew up loving, youknow, stephen King.
He was like my favorite authorgrowing up.
I mean, who's more commercialthan Stephen King?
(19:47):
You know Right.
So I think I'm just interestedin a lot of things and I'm
interested in what people areinterested in and I think when
you're open to that, you know,and also I'm kind of allowed,
because I'm in YA, to be able towrite several different genres.
You know I've written thrillers, I've written natural, I've
written fantasy, portal fantasy,second world fantasy.
(20:10):
You know I've writtenchildren's books.
So so I think being in inchildren's allowed me to do a
lot of different genres and sowhen I do that in adult, it's
not like, oh, you've never donethat.
I was like well, I did that inYA, why can't I do it for adults
?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You said War and Peace got you out of a
depression.
Oh, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
I was like I read War and Peace at one point just to
say I had read it and I was like, okay, I think I need to read
(20:50):
it again Because there was war,then there was peace and there
was war, like it, the most aptlytitled book, possibly.
Possibly it was how he talkedabout families and how he talked
about the love between siblings, like you know, like really, um
, uh, katerina and her brotherNikolai, like that relationship
and that book is so wonderfuland even like how wise it was
about, um, you know, kind ofabout people in the world.
(21:11):
You know, my favorite characteris Katerina, katya, and
something about her.
She's, you know, it's like towhom much is given, more is
given, you know, because she wasso privileged and she was so
beloved and so she was so loving, whereas, you know, contrast
that with Sonia, who was alwayskind of, you know, you know like
(21:33):
, oh, the poor girl, the poorrelative, and we were supposed
to feel bad for her.
It was it kind of turned out onthe on its head, like because
Sonia always felt lesser thanshe was, lesser, you know, in
her own mind also.
And Nikolai doesn't end up withher spoiler, you know, he ends
up right, yeah, um and uh, andyou know, and Katerina says
something about that.
(21:54):
You know, she always thoughtless and so I just wanted that
abundance.
I think it is also that likekind of you know thinking of
abundantly.
So I actually named.
My daughter is named mateakatherine after katarina.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So no kidding my.
So one of my favorite books isanna karenina and'm starting to
think right, so it's.
I have three favorites I, andthat's one of them.
And my grandfather, who passedaway, gosh, I want to say about
15 years ago, had a leatherbound edition of Anna Karenina
(22:26):
and it just sits.
I'm almost afraid to open itbecause I just it's beloved to
me, but I want to read it againfrom there.
Because it's beloved to me, butI want to read it again from
there.
And now you've got me thinkingabout whether or not there are
sort of subconscious reasons whyI loved that book that I don't
realize.
Have you read the Covenant ofWater?
Okay, Abraham Verghese, so it'snewer, I mean it's in the last
(22:53):
couple of years.
But when I think literaryfiction, for some reason that's
the book that first pops into mymind.
And I have to read literaryfiction very slowly.
Yeah, Do you read things in adifferent way?
Do you immerse yourself in itin different genres, in
different ways?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I think that it has to be something that keeps me
turning the pages, so boring Iput it down, you know.
You know, certainly someliterary fiction is very
compelling and easy to read andfun, you know, fun to get into
it.
I've not read that book, youknow, if it looks too boring I'm
not going to read it.
But okay, I'm trying to get youit.
Um, I've not read that book,you know, if it looks too boring
I'm not gonna read it.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
But okay, um, trying to think yet you are in war and
peace, because I think that'sthe funny thing about that is.
I think so many people wouldsay I was so bored yeah, no,
it's not boring at all.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Well, it's like the war stuff is boring.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I mean you can well, that agreed.
And I had to keep going back tothat damn map.
Yeah, I was like where are we?
Like, thank God there's anindex of characters and a map at
the beginning, like now we haveto have maps in books that have
world building.
But we, I legit needed the map.
Yeah, and the map of characters, like who is whom?
I cannot, I cannot, I justcannot.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
It's easy to keep track of Andre, katya, you know,
pierre and Nikolai, it's toomuch.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Well, I took a Russian lit class, which was
strange, in college and it wasone of my favorite classes.
It was strange because whosigns up for a Russian lit class
?
But I did and I can still seemy professor.
I mean, we won't talk about howmany years ago it was, but I
can't remember her name, but Ican see her and it was the most
fascinating class because shewas so passionate about Russian
(24:41):
literature and about Russianauthors.
It was just incredibly.
What's your favorite thing toread?
Do you have one?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Cooking memoirs.
I love cooking.
Stop it Because I I mean, I kindof cook.
You know, my daughter kind oflike shamed me into cooking, you
know, and she wantedhome-cooked meals instead of
Postmates.
I think, uh, one of theKardashians showed her Postmates
bill and think ours was higher,so it was like, oh my god, you
(25:07):
know, um, so I, but I love thefantasy of cooking, you you know
, and I love about, you know,ruth Reichel or MFK Fisher, or
you know, I mean any cookingmemoir I will read.
You know, restaurant memoirs,wine memoirs, you know anything
with food, people making them,you know, and all the drama
(25:29):
behind it, you know, it'sdefinitely even the recipes you
know.
So great, so great to thinkI'll do it one day.
I never do.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Okay.
Well, I feel I I'm like a bigold Pinterest fail waiting to
happen with every, every recipeon the planet, cause I see it
and I think okay let's go, let'sdo it, and I just am not.
I'm not terribly good at it, asall of my children will attest
(25:58):
to that fact.
I'm also just.
I don't love it.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
I find it relaxing, but I don't like the prep for it
.
You know, because you actuallyhave to go to the grocery store
and you have to cut it all upand then you know, and then you
actually have to cook it.
I told my daughter I was likeI'm going to have a dinner party
and maybe I'll cook becauseI've been cooking for the family
.
And my daughter was likehorrified.
She was like you can cook forme and daddy, but not for other
(26:24):
people.
Mom, why would you subject themto your cooking?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I was like okay, I guess we won't do that, I, I.
It makes me question, like thesous chef, the guy or gal who's
in there just choppingeverything, I think what, if
I've cut one carrot, I'm done,that's exactly right, I don't.
And when they say cut thecarrot like matchsticks.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Oh yeah, no, that's not going to happen.
I'm out.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Now, if you bring it to me and it's already cut like
matchsticks, I could get into it.
Yeah, but is there?
So is there a favorite cookingmemoir that you just you read
and you just thought oh man.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Um, I loved, uh, giuliana Malucci's I loved I
lost, I made spaghetti becauseit's about it's kind of like a
sex in the city dating memoir,um, but also about her mom and
actually the recipes areactually really easy.
Um, it's like italian uhrecipes.
So, yeah, I loved I lost, Imade spaghetti one of my
(27:23):
favorites and the recipes aregreat.
I've made the meatballs.
I actually was able to makethem and it actually turned out
well.
I think I made them twice in mylife.
Yeah, but anything Ruth Reichelwrites come for me with apples
is amazing.
I'm always-.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I've heard of none of these, I think.
Clearly I stay away from therecipe section of the bookstore.
That is not for me, I guessMaybe I I don't know.
Do you think I'd get more intoit if I read the backstory?
Do you like watching it on TV?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yes, I also like watching it, for sure.
Yes, I love the food channel.
I love any kind of cooking show.
I love is it cake when you knowon Netflix, where the host cuts
it is it cake and my husbandand I were like it's cake or
it's not cake a cake and myhusband and I were like it's
cake or it's not cake.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
So it's very clear that the cakes I bake are in
fact cake and shouldn't be.
That's kind of how.
There's a new one I just saw.
I can't remember what streamingservice it's on, but it's like
a documentary of four different,and one of them is Alice Waters
, who I'm, or is it Alice?
Is that?
Am I saying that right, becauseI feel like it's.
Is she a chef?
Okay, I feel like I'm.
Isn't there an author namedAlice?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I think there is an author also, but I don't know
Right Chez Panisse Alice Waters.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yes, yes, okay With the salads.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, with the salad, the fancy, we went to Chez
Panisse when did we go Justrecently actually.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
It was.
Did we go just recently?
Actually it was cool.
Well, the way she talks aboutsalad and then I, I go and I
make my salad and I maybe I justit's because Alice needs to
make my salad.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
I think Alice needs to make all of our you know all
of our salads.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I feel like I would eat so much better if someone
like that.
Okay, I digress.
So what keeps you?
Is it your love of writing thatkeeps you in the space and
keeps you producing more andmore?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
like what keeps you here yeah, I, you know, even
though you know it's so funny,you always have to remember
you're living your dream right.
And you know, seeing my author,friends we were all like why
the f do we do this?
It's's so hard, it's sostressful, I mean.
And then the hustle and grindof it all, and then you realize,
you know, when you're writing astory, it is really fun.
(29:45):
And what would I do?
I mean, I just entertain myself.
You know, I like being alone, Ilike making up things, I like
figuring out puzzles, you know,because a book is like a logic
puzzle and if you have no storycoherence, nobody understands it
.
And then if you do it right,people take it for granted.
But it's actually one of thehardest things to do.
(30:06):
So I think I like the mentalchallenge of it and then I like
just being left alone with myimagination.
So yeah, I actually do likethat with my imagination.
So yeah, I actually do likethat, you know.
And I think I didn't realizethat being an author means also
being promoting and traveling.
And I love talking to readers,I love meeting my readers.
(30:28):
That is really really fun andactually makes me feel better
about what I'm doing, becauseyou remember that there's
actually people reading it.
I think, you know, book toursare really exhausting so I don't
look forward to them.
So it's kind of like I justkind of get through them and you
know, and then I come home andbe like thank God, but you know,
(30:49):
but yeah, you know, and also Ihave my mortgage and you know I
send the kid to college and youknow it was a job.
So there's that.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
What a great point that when you read a great book,
it's easy to think how hard canthis be?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Right, without recognizing that that person
9000 drafts later.
That's where they ended up.
Yeah, what's your process for?
Do you write it quickly andthen have people review it beta
readers or what's your processnow?
How has that evolved?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
So my husband and I work together.
You know my name is on them,but you know we actually work on
the books pretty, I mean prettycollaborative, I mean it's like
50, 50, 50.
So, uh, we usually come up withthe concepts together, um,
sometimes it's his concept,sometimes it's mine.
He's also published seven booksunder his own name.
(31:47):
We've published three underboth of our names and then the
majority is under my name.
But we, we work on all of themtogether.
So we kind of talk it out andthen I'll write the first kind
of like you know kind ofproposal that we sell, and then,
um, and then usually he and Iwrite the outline together.
Sometimes he writes the wholeoutline, sometimes I write the
(32:08):
whole outline, and then we justkind of trade it back and forth.
You know, he's usually um, agreat you know idea generator,
and I'm usually the one who sayswhether the marketplace will
buy it.
I'll be like, oh, I can usethat and I think I can sell it
here, you know.
And then I'm usually the end,I'm like the polisher and the
one who kind of takes it intoproduction.
So so, yeah, so that's how wework and you know, it's kind of
(32:33):
it's easy and difficult becauseyou know we're business partners
writing partners and's kind of.
It's easy and difficult becauseyou know we're business
partners writing partners andwe're married and we're parents.
So you know sometimes it's liketoo much.
You know we have a lot of timetogether.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Right.
So I'm hearing plotter.
Are you more of a plot?
You guys are plotting, oryou're plotting Absolutely
Before you're writing?
Are you right every day?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Not every day.
You know my Tuesdays are myzoom days Every day if the
deadline is there.
So if the deadline is about twoweeks out, you know, that's
kind of when I started cancelingall my plans.
We I start just staying at home.
You know it is the writing cave, got to get that book into
production and and that's whenyou know those really long
(33:26):
writing writing hours aresometimes that's actually when
the book really happens.
You know, I think MaggieStiefvater has talked about that
.
She's like you can write, write, write.
But like that last, you knowtwo weeks, that last month is
really kind of when the bookcomes alive and it's really
exciting because you've kind offigured it out and then you're
just right, you know you're noteven counting words anymore
because you actually know thestory, so you're just trying to
get it down.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, Are you someone who does?
Can you do 15 minute incrementsor do you need four hours?
Does it vary?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I usually work from like 8am to about 1pm creatively
, which means like I try not toanswer emails, I try not to
answer the phone, I try not todo any non writing work.
So I just have that block oftime to really focus.
So I think that you know isreally you know really getting
into the flow and kind of thedeep work of it.
(34:17):
And then after lunch is when Ianswer emails and do all the
admin and kind of work ondomestic, what's for dinner and
all that.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And who's going to put the carrots into matchsticks
?
Exactly, not me.
Yeah, not me.
Do you spend a lot of time onsocial media?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
uh, not really.
I mean yes and no.
You know I I always tellauthors like to do it if it's
fun, so I'll do it if it's fun,you know, and you know like, oh,
I look cute there.
Or like, oh, this is a photo ofmy friends and we'll post this,
oh, we should promote, shouldpromote the book.
I don't know, maybe as a GenXer I just that whole, like
(35:04):
blasting the sound of your owntrumpet, is just really hard.
But I actually think youactually do have to do it.
So I'm trying to do a lot morenow.
I used to have a lot moreassistants before COVID.
So I had, and I still have, asocial media assistant.
But I had somebody who wouldcome here and kind of help me
with the admin and help run.
(35:24):
You know all the fan lettersand all that.
And now it's just me and youknow, so it's kind of random.
So I always say this newsletteryou'll get randomly when I have
something to say, I'll let youknow.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, last question I always ask is what are you
reading now, or what have youread recently, besides War and
Peace, that you really loved?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Oh, that I really loved.
I really loved Legends andLattes by Travis I can't
remember his last name, I canlook it up uh, legends and
Lattes which is a cozy fantasyabout a female orc who, uh,
retires and opens a coffee shopand it is so fun.
(36:10):
You know I'm a fantasy junkie.
Uh, you know I love Lord of theRings, so it's basically, you
know, kind of in that world of,like, orcs and wizards and all
that, but it's really just aboutopening a coffee shop and it's
so great.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
I loved it.
You said you've now said ittwice, so you confirmed it.
But I was like did she just sayorc and orc opened a coffee
shop?
You can write anything?
Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I love anything about acoffee shop, so anything else,
any other books that you've?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
What else have I read lately?
I've been reading a lot ofromance I read.
So I have a big adultromanticist which is coming out
in September called Rings ofFate, and it's my first adult
romanticist.
It's uh, it's Lord of the Ringswith sex, so check it out.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
So I've never been into really Lord of the Rings,
but if you add in the set likelet's, let's go.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
It's a well, my publisher is is calling it the
princess.
Bride means time, so it's kindof a bantering couple.
So, uh, and I was reading a lotof romance.
Anyway, I was reading a lot ofBridgerton.
So the Bridgeton, theBridgerton series is amazing.
It's so fun, it is so much funto read.
Um, it is just a, you know,reading pleasure.
(37:32):
I haven't really read anythingthat I would love.
I read things that I was likekind of may about, so I'm not
going to talk about those books.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Right, sure we can.
Yeah, we can keep that on thedown low.
What did you say?
Your publisher, princess Bride,meets what?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
A Wheel of Time which is like a Lord of the Rings.
I guess they didn't want to useLord of the Rings, so it's
Princess Bride meets Wheel ofTime.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Okay that, and is it a series or is it a standalone?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
It is a series it is a series.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Okay, oh, I'm excited .
I never thought I'd say I'mexcited for something that, but
I am.
I'm excited, Melissa.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
It is fun.
It's about a snarky barmaid who, you know, doesn't think she'll
ever fall in love or was everworthy of love, and a handsome
prince with a terrible secret.
And it's just so fun to watchthem fall in love.
It was so fun to write.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I can't wait.
Well, thank you so much forcreating the time and being.
You've inspired me.
I feel like I want to gowallpaper something.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Oh yes, this is the.
I think it's actually zebras,oh it is.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Oh, I can see it now, okay.
Yes, it's the zebras.
Oh it is.
Oh, I can see it now, okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
It's the Maasai wallpaper from Scalabandra
Scalabandra.
Okay, I will look, oh my gosh,the Royal Tenenbaums.
I think had like the red zebras, so it comes in red green.
I went with the gold.
It's a black and gold office.
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I went with the gold.
It's a black and gold office.
Yeah, I love it.
It's great, like I'm reallyfeeling inspired.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thank you so much.
I wish we had renovateddownstairs so my closet could be
out of here.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Well, in time, in time, oh, my gosh Thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Thank you so much for having me.
This was so much fun.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
(39:36):
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
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