June 11, 2025 • 62 mins
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This week, I’m joined by publicist Emily Florence, and we’re talking about how to set publicity goals before you start chasing them, why a Today Show appearance might not sell nearly as many books as you think, and how to make your marketing feel less like shouting into the void and more like having conversations that matter.
Here’s what we get into:
- Why knowing your goals (career author? credibility? visibility?) makes all the difference
- The surprising truth about big media hits (and what works better)
- Building an author platform that doesn’t rely on hacking the algorithm or pretending to be someone you’re not
- How to build a real-deal, supportive author community (no fake “collabs” required)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in.
Be sure to reveal that a resulttook eight years or required a
$30,000 investment in ads,because those details are just
as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game, is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing tips and
solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody and welcome tothis next episode of Write the
Damn Book Already.
When Emily Florence reached outto me about coming on the
podcast, she well, she had mefrom the first paragraph, but
she definitely had me when shementioned that she had worked on
Gilmore Girls as a publicistback in the day.
(01:26):
That is a show.
I'm almost borderline obsessedwith it every fall.
She's the author of Even Better, easier Ways to a Happier Life,
which was noted as thefeel-good book of 2024 by Yahoo
Finance, and you're going tounderstand why when you have
this conversation.
I was just so happy when Iunderstand why when you have
this conversation I was just sohappy when I got through the end
(01:47):
of this conversation.
I think, as typically happenswith this podcast and with the
book space in general, I found anew friend and it's definitely
safe to say that this will notbe my last conversation with
Emily when it comes to bookpublicity.
Much like my beloved Jen HansenDePaula, emily is such a
(02:09):
go-with-the-flow, no-pressure,no-drama person when it comes to
author publicity and I know youare just going to love
everything she has to say.
So let's just get on with theconversation.
First of all, I can't wait totalk about all things publicity,
(02:31):
because it's such a it's like aminefield to talk about this
and I feel like when we starttalking about it, people get
excited and then they get very.
It.
People get excited and thenthey get very.
It's like it's trepidatious,because I think people wonder
what am I going to have to do?
(02:51):
And my motto, which you may ormay not know, is you don't have
to do anything.
I think that's so important toremind people maybe just myself
of we don't have to do anything,and yet if we don't do anything
.
We don't get to come back andgo.
(03:11):
Nothing's selling, no one'sbuying it and I feel like and
this is a little bit of a longersegue or intro than I was
anticipating here, but I don'tknow if you talk to, so I'm
asking you do you talk to a lotof people who tend to lead with?
I don't really care if my bookmakes any money.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I have.
So okay, so I work with, I meanI work with publishing houses
and I host workshops for them,for their authors and then I
work independently.
I do, like I have a DIY PRcourse which is just self-study,
I have group coaching, I havefull service publicity and then
I also have consulting, which iskind of the sweet spot.
(03:56):
So I'll tell you and you and Iare kind of alike, because I
think we work with a lot ofwomen entrepreneurs too.
So to answer your questiondirectly, it's yes and no.
Like I have a client right now,lisa, who's like just she
considers her book like aglorified business card, so she
doesn't really care about allthese book sales.
It was more to give her kind ofcredibility.
(04:17):
She also wanted to be on morestages and things like that.
Right, readers, she definitely.
And things like that, thereaders, she definitely.
It wasn't.
Like that wasn't her topobjective, right.
And then I have other otherclients or people I work with
who are like 100% they want to,you know, make it their author
(04:40):
career.
They want to sell enough copies.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
That that's all they have to do.
Yeah, well, and I think youraise a really good and
interesting point.
So last week I was talking toMelissa de la Cruz, who is, you
know, was written 80, 80 booksnow Crazy, right.
And her thing was you've got toknow what your goal is.
Yes, and I completely agreewith that, and it's one of the
(05:05):
first things that I talk topeople about is what is your
goal?
So, in line with that, whensomeone says, well, I'm using my
book as a glorified businesscard which I've talked about how
much I hate that phrase I haveI have a right.
I'd see it in your face.
But we, we both know whateverybody means when they write,
when they say that if I sayright, one more time, I'm going
(05:25):
to lose it.
Knowing that your book isintended to be the entry point
for people to find out moreabout you, to connect with you
more, is a great.
That's what a lot of peoplemean.
When they say, I don't care ifthe book makes money, what
they're saying is they don'tcare if they make a full-time
living off sales of their book,which, as we all either know or
(05:49):
will now know, isextraordinarily difficult to do
Extraordinarily.
Then there's the other side ofit, where I hear people say well
, I truly don't care if I makemoney, I just want to help
people, which I think is solovely, so, so lovely.
Either they have another sourceof income or and they truly
don't care if I make money, Ijust want to help people, which
(06:10):
I think is so lovely, so, solovely.
Either they have another sourceof income or and they truly
don't care.
There's somewhere in the middle, though, where I think people
say it because they're trying toprotect themselves, because
they're afraid.
They know that they feelnervous about doing the
publicity, and by tellingthemselves, I don't really care
if it doesn't, it's protectingthemselves from needing to go
(06:30):
out and do something that theydon't necessarily want to do.
So I'm really excited to getyour thoughts on what's and see
the air quotes working, what'snot working, what are some new
things that people are trying?
And first, I need to ask youwhat you did with the Gilmore
Girls, because so good right.
When you sent me your email, Imean you had me from the first
(06:53):
paragraph.
But when we got to the GilmoreGirls and you said you had
worked on the Gilmore Girls andAmerican Idol but the Gilmore
Girls, I was like we're donehere.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I know it's just like my heart.
Um, yeah, so I I did mymaster's in broadcast journalism
from Emerson and then I wasworking in the news in um,
producing Okay, and then Iswitched over.
I wanted to come back toCalifornia.
I went to LA and and startedworking as a publicist just the
other side, you know, and at aphenomenal agency top in Beverly
(07:29):
Hills.
And so I was a publicist for inthe TV department for American
Idol, gilmore Girls, so youThink you Can Dance, just tons,
a lot of shows.
Gilmore Girls has a specialplace in my heart because
sometimes you representsomething and you absolutely
love it, and sometimes yourepresent something and it's
(07:49):
more just a job.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
That's a great point.
Yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
It's so great and I can't believe like they left us,
kind of like I am not.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I'm still very displeased, I know.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I'm like I know they've moved on and done all
these other great shows, but I'mlike can you just circle back?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
please Like, who leaves us off with I'm pregnant?
Well, they did.
I know I still love them.
I mean it's I've watched itwith both my daughters mostly my
older daughter and we justwatch it over and over.
There's like a time of yearwhen we always put it on.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
It's always in the fall, coming like I was just
about to say, elizabeth, it'ssuch a fall, yeah, it's a fall
show Like it's so great.
I know, I do too, I'm the sameway I want to live there.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I'm like, where is that?
I know me too.
Okay, I swear if I lived thereI'd do a lot more book publicity
.
So tell me Hollywood.
But bingo, bingo.
So tell me, first of all, do you, do you know Jen Hanson DePaula
?
No, I don't.
Okay, I need to connect the twoof you.
(08:53):
So Jen is my dear friend whoI'm realizing you guys are
extremely similar.
She is, has been in bookpublicity for a long, long time,
and before that she was inmusic publicity from you know,
in the in Nashville for the along long time, and before that
she was in music publicity inNashville in the music industry
oh, fantastic.
And so she has been for yearsmy go-to for books, which is the
(09:15):
other reason I was reallyexcited to hear from you,
because there just aren't manypeople in the space, I find, who
authentically know what they'retalking about, meaning they're
willing to say I don't know,they're willing to admit this is
a very odd, it's just kind ofan odd space.
(09:38):
There are no guarantees, we'reall throwing darts at the wall
and I think that even that,coming from an industry expert,
professional, is so reassuringto authors.
So just tell me, what do youlove about book publicity?
What do you feel like on theauthor side?
(10:00):
What do you feel like isavailable now for authors that
should excite and I don't likethe word should, but should
excite authors.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah, I mean I'm just because I'm so passionate about
helping authors andentrepreneurs, because I that's
that's me too.
You know, I have a book out andI've been on the journey and oh
my gosh, and we have tochampion each other and I am all
about that, like I absolutelylove connecting people too and
(10:30):
helping them like share theirbooks, and just let's all do
this together.
We're all in it together.
So I'm a big believer in thatand I just have always had a
special passion for authors andfor entrepreneurs and I think
putting yourself out there issuch a big deal and I commend
every single person.
It is not easy, but I reallyjust connect with authors and
(10:57):
entrepreneurs.
That's why I kind of you know Ileft the entertainment world to
say I want to really helppeople and then I also want to
help people help themselves.
So what was your question again, elizabeth?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
That's the best moment.
So where were we going?
Like, what do you find exciting, my brother?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
would be like land the plane.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Listen, if we don't keep this reined in Emily, we're
both going to go.
The whole audience is going tobe like are they ever going to
come back to center?
Will they ever land the plane?
And the answer is I don't.
I don't know.
My original question was whatis exciting to you about?
You know, for authors I mean,let me just say really quickly,
(11:38):
because you said something andif I don't say it I'll forget it
.
I have talked to a lot ofauthors at this point in the
traditional indie hybrid, itdoesn't matter how they're
published, and one thing I havecome to really rest assured with
is that, even though the bookindustry is very windy and it's
(12:03):
turbulent and it's unpredictableand, as Jane Friedman said,
it's the one area that she canthink of and I can't think of
one either, another one eitherwhere there are no guarantees,
you know it's not like well, ifyou stick with this for 10 years
, you are assured to fill in theblank.
You're not assured to anythingbeyond finish the next book,
(12:24):
because that's the only thingover which you have control.
We've certainly heard and seenthe cattiness that can happen in
this industry, sadly,especially among women in the
Goodreads community, et cetera.
That being said, I find this tobe one of the most supportive,
lovely communities.
(12:46):
I have met some of my dearestfriends.
Like people like I'm already, Ican already tell you you're not
we're, you're not rid of mewhen we get off this interview.
I find that it's such awonderful space where people
don't feel like it's my book oryour book so I've got to be
cutthroat.
(13:06):
It could be both.
Let's figure out how someonewho likes my book will also
benefit from your book and let'ssee how we could do this
together, which also createsthis sense of I'm not alone in
this.
I'm doing it with someone else.
So if we win, we both win.
If we air quote fail, we bothfail, we do it together.
(13:26):
And it feels a little safer.
Absolutely.
I agree 100%.
When you work with authors,because you do it in a whole
bunch of different capacities.
When you get started withsomeone who says and this is
even a hard question becauseit's going to depend on genre
(13:46):
but, like, I want to get my bookout there to as many people who
will enjoy it as possible, doyou have a a first step?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yes, I do and I have a first step for everybody too,
and it's like it's kind of whatyou were mentioning too goals.
I always kind of start withobjectives same thing, different
, different.
And I find that authors that Iwork with it's one of three
things.
For the most part, it's eithernumber one they want an author
career and they want to sellbooks.
I mean, this is like something.
(14:21):
It's not just that they pouredtheir heart into one project,
they want a future for thisAnother, you know.
Then also there's the otherpeople who are like you know
what this is just like we talkedabout the business card.
They're like I want this bookto build credibility.
So many people I meet,especially in the nonfiction
(14:42):
genre, especially people who arecoaches or they have, you know,
some sort of practices.
They want to see themselves aslike the go-to on CNN or the
go-to on the Today Show or being, you know, speaking on stages.
It's not like they reallypoured their heart.
They're not like me who want tolike, enjoy, like sitting in a
room for seven hours alonetyping, like I love that, right?
(15:04):
Not everybody is like, right.
So and then there's otherpeople who really just, they're
like I just want visibility.
They're like I just want to beout there and kind of with any
campaign there is a little bitof you know, throwing something
against the wall and seeing whatsticks.
But it is so important thatpeople at least have an idea of
(15:25):
their number one, number two,number three objectives, because
it's going to it's changes thewhole way that you're going to
go about things.
Like if I want like, for yourexample, if somebody says I want
to get this book in the handsof as many readers as possible
who are also going to appreciateit and get value from it.
Right, which is so importantyou pour your heart into
(15:49):
something.
You want other people, you wantto have a positive impact on
others.
Books change lives in the bestway.
So in that kind of situationyou would be like okay, we want
to target, you want to be really, really clear on who your
audience is, and then you wantto get in the media that are
going to be serving thataudience.
(16:10):
So that's not necessarily thesame situation for somebody who
says, hey, I want to buildcredibility.
Now, credibility is alwaysgoing to be about media logos
that are very recognizable.
Now, they don't have to berecognizable across like
national media, as far as thetoday show or a GMA or or
whatever, or NPR or entrepreneurForbes, it can also be in that
(16:35):
genre, you know.
So I have a client right nowthat I'm working with and she's
a mom of four and she wrote thisincredible book about, you know
, doing less in motherhood, likekind of modern motherhood, and
her credibility.
While she does, you know it isone of her, you know, targets to
objectives.
She does want to be, you know,at some point at the GMA couch,
(16:57):
so we're working on pitches foryou know, figuring that out, but
also a lot of the mom podcastblogs, media.
They might not be recognizableto everyone, but when she has
those logos on her website orsomebody says she's been here,
it's credibility for her in thatgenre Right.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Right.
So question about that howreasonable do you feel it is
anymore to shoot for, say, todayShow, good Morning America,
beyond it being a bucket listitem?
Yeah, Right, so I know that alot of people that you know.
When Oprah was on, that was thedream I want to be on Oprah, so
(17:43):
many people would say that.
What people don't, what a lot ofpeople don't realize, is that
the reality of, and especiallytoday, but the reality of
getting on the Today Show isyou're going to move fewer than
300 books by being on the TodayShow, and that was even maybe a
decade ago.
Like, I don't even know what itis today because people don't
(18:04):
have cable anymore.
And so how many people areactually watching the Today Show
?
Now to your point.
If you can say I was on theToday Show for even 30 seconds,
yes, it absolutely gives youcredibility, because the Today
Show will not bring on someonewho is not credible.
As far as the moving books, asfar as the moving books, right,
(18:37):
I often have to reset people'sexpectations with that because,
number one, it doesn't do insomeone such as yourself to help
them craft the pitch to getthem on the show and all those
sorts of things.
So I think it really is aboutassessing what are your goals in
doing this.
Same with New York Timesbestseller list, same with all
(18:58):
of that there are people payingsix figures to get on the
bestseller list, just to say Igot on.
So how do you set people'sexpectations?
Because, coming from theHollywood side of it, right, I
certainly understand yourpotential position of look,
there is validity to thosethings too, so just tell me your
perspective on that.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah so, and I and I love to manage people's
expectations and also I'm a bigoptimist and I've seen the big
things happen, right Likethere's magic everywhere.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I mean, look at my, I don't know if people, if
they're not watching, but I havea whole thing that says
everything is possible.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
So yeah, I'm also it's like the optimist, with a
side of heavy, side dose ofrealism A hundred percent, a
hundred percent, with a side aheavy side dose of realism A
hundred percent, a hundredpercent, and I also, I always
tell people who I, you know,work with um and even just
talking to you know you reallyhave to have patience and
tenacity, absolutely Like youreally really have to.
(20:00):
And I remember I don't want togo on a tangent, so let me go
back.
So how do I manage thoseexpectations?
I mean, I'm a big believer inif you have a calling like if
you're like I want to be on GMA,like one of my clients, that is
her goal, like that is whereshe's seen herself and all the
things I'm all about.
Let's swing for the fences andalso let's create a strategy
(20:24):
that you're also going to seeother results, because there's
all, there's momentum in all ofthis stuff.
You can talk about it from amindset, energetic, perspective,
where it's just reallyunhealthy to hear no all the
time.
As somebody who's also, you know, worked with like the American
idols, like the media coaching,you know you have people coming
from all over the country andthey're like Ryan Seacrest, like
(20:46):
welcome to Hollywood, andsuddenly they're being
interviewed by, you know,national media, walking red
carpets.
They're like what do I say?
What do I do?
There is this element, too, oflike get your feet wet, get
really comfortable with yoursound bites, with your talking
points, just you know.
So I like to do a little bit ofboth.
(21:07):
I like to encourage people inwhatever strategy we ultimately
or they create or I create withthem co-create.
I like to have them.
You know you want to havedreams.
I mean that's so important, ofcourse.
And also you need to kind of bea realistic.
And I mean personally and Iknow you asked this earlier,
(21:27):
elizabeth, and I didn't reallyanswer it Like where I find
people are having the mostsuccess right now and the
definition of success meaningthey're connecting with actual
readers and people who arereally interested in their books
are podcasts, and podcaststhere's so many reasons.
It's like, number one, theylive on forever or for a long
(21:51):
time.
And number two, like booksdon't get old.
Books have a long tail.
You know, I can hear about abook that was out five years ago
.
I don't care that it launchedfive years ago, I'm going to go
buy it.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
It's not it's you know, I'm going to, I'm
interrupting you again because Iwill forget.
Do you know what I heard theother day?
That I didn't know what TaylorJenkins read?
Um, seven wives of Evelyn Hugo.
Have you read this?
Uh-uh?
Okay, I need you to.
I don't know what genre youlike, but it doesn't matter.
I need you to put this on yourlist.
This was my first TaylorJenkins read that I got my hands
(22:26):
on and it blew my mind.
That was a.
I believe she released it.
I might be missing, like 2017,but it was a COVID breakthrough.
It did not go berserk untilCOVID, for some reason right.
So, three years later, and thesame can be said that the other
(22:47):
example I've given for years isyou are a badass.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yes, Jen Sincero.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I talk about that all the time.
It was like four years and itwas not expected.
Yes, it was traditionallypublished.
It was like four years and itwas not expected.
Yes, it was traditionallypublished, it was not expected.
Never she does what I do.
She was a book coach, a littledifferently, but same thing.
And then I don't know, rightplace, right time, right cover,
right who knows what, and off itgoes.
(23:13):
So it does have a very longtail, especially today, and even
traditionally published authorstoday are given a little bit
more leeway by their publisher.
It used to be like three weeksIf you don't get this baby
moving in three weeks, we'redone.
Now they've got months, if notsometimes even a year or so.
(23:35):
They give them because theyknow there's always something
new they can try, totally Right.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
So podcasts are absolutely and books are very
word of mouth.
It's like somebody says you gotto read this book, emily, I'm
going to buy it.
Like you, I'm like, okay,putting that in my little cart
right now.
Like I'm like putting in that,putting that in my little cart
right now, um.
(24:03):
But, but yeah, podcasts.
I I steer clients towards andmy coaching students towards at
least exploring podcasts, forthose reasons that they live for
a long time.
Um, you also get um, you knowSEO, that you know if they,
oftentimes you'll ask the hostto link to your website in the
show notes and so you have somesearch engine optimization going
(24:26):
on, which is always lovely.
And you also, you know most,you know ones that are recorded.
You can say to the host youknow, can I get a copy?
And then go and have your VA,your virtual assistant, or do it
yourself.
You make clips so you can have,like, out of an hour podcast
interview, you could have fouror five clips that you can
(24:47):
repurpose on social media.
You know, it's just, it's, it's.
I find it's the gift that keepson giving.
Yes, it's the gift that keepson giving, yes, and also,
podcasts are rare in the sensethat they allow you to go deep
and to really connect withpeople, where even you know I
have people.
I just booked somebody theother day on an NPR and that's
(25:09):
great.
Npr can go a little bit morelike 10, 15 minutes versus like
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
You just go so deep with podcasts, well, that's a
great point because with news,you know if you're on a local
you've got two minutes.
It can feel like the longestand shortest two minutes of your
life.
That's it.
There's no depth to that, it'sjust.
Hey, I was on this news channelthis morning from uh, if we
(25:37):
pull it back to a verygrassroots keeping with the
podcast theme, but a verygrassroots look, I'm a new
author.
I'm not really comfortable withthis.
Yet I don't have a hugeplatform.
You know I'm trying to get out.
There Would podcasts and socialmedia.
What are some ways that youencourage people that are like
(26:02):
bang for your buck, so to speak?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because Ithink people hear oh, you've got
to post three times a day and Ican't even maintain, I can't
and I you know with podcasts togo back to that for two seconds.
One, well, a little more thantwo seconds.
But the thing is that'ssomewhere that some people might
hate it when I say this.
That's a great place to useChatGPT because you can have it,
(26:25):
help you come up with ideas forhow to parse out a podcast clip
or podcast show notes orwhatever into multiple different
types of content, and chat GPTcan also be a great way to help.
You can't I don't believe youshould copy paste.
You got to make it sound likeyou, but come up with ideas.
(26:47):
So how do you help people startwho are like I don't have the
ability or the desire to dothree posts a day?
Show my face.
What valuable content am Igoing to provide?
I've written romanticism, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
No, it's such a great question After so many years of
doing workshops and helpingpeople.
That's when I created this DIYPR course, because I don't like
to break people's banks andeverybody, every author has a
different.
If anybody's listening and theydon't know.
Like, if you're going to hire adecent, good publicist for
(27:27):
three months, which is usually aminimum, it's going to be from
$10,000 to $15,000.
Thank you, it is not cheap,it's not, it's not at all.
It's a huge investment and it'swonderful for people that it's
wonderful for.
And also, there are so manypeople I started meeting, so
(27:50):
many people who were like Ican't, that's just not you know,
and it's not that it's notpossible for me personally, like
I want.
I want us all to do the bestthat we can and I also believe
there's so many people who Iwork with clients, I teach them,
I coach them.
They can do it themselves.
Elizabeth, they're not going todo it all, but they don't have
(28:11):
to.
Like we kind of started out inthe beginning.
You don't have to do it all.
You can do a little bit here, alittle bit there, a little bit
there and watch the momentumkind of build.
I'm also a big believer in likestrategy and I know that's kind
of like a word that can appealto people and also be like.
But I like it because I like tohelp people like put.
(28:32):
You know, I was playingdominoes with my niece the other
day and it was like I like tohelp them put dominoes in a row
and flick the one that's goingto have everything come into
alignment, like I'm all aboutlike let's take the overwhelm
and the stress out of it as muchas possible and be smart about
it.
But to answer your question,like I have a DIY PR course.
(28:54):
I also have group coachingstudents and then I offer like
single sessions to give thosepeople like some one-on-one,
because everyone needs someone-on-one at a rate.
That's, you know, much moreaffordable than investing in a
publicist.
And I would say get started withsome sort of roadmap.
You know, of course I want totell everybody come join my DIY
(29:15):
PR course.
I'll take great care of you,I'll give you all the
information, but you don't haveto do that.
There's so many resources outthere, but you really do have to
have an.
You need to start with what doI want, just like we started
with.
Like what do I want?
You also have to give yourselfsome time.
You have to be realistic of,like, what's a three month plan?
And I'm going to commit to it?
(29:36):
Right, and hey, why not askchat GPT to help you with that?
Right, you know.
But I, every person isdifferent, but, and how much
time they have in their day, oror whatnot?
This one client of mine who Imentioned earlier, she's a
mother of four and, uh, she'sdoing incredible and she also
(29:57):
has she doesn't have five hoursa day to work on pitches and
whatnot.
But I would say decide what youwant, get really clear on what
you want, give yourself atimeline three, six months a
year and I would say go afterpodcasts.
You need to.
The most important thing youneed to do, after identifying
what you want, is who.
The most important thing youneed to do after identifying
(30:17):
what you want is who you'retrying to attract.
Who are your readers?
Because it is so pointless tospend all this time pitching to
a podcast where, let's say, yourideal reader is a woman who's
30 years old.
That's pretty vague, that's noteven very specific, but let's
(30:41):
just go with that.
You're going to have so muchmore success.
You're going to feel so muchbetter and see the results when
you pitch to podcasts.
Who that's their target.
That's their listeners, even ifit's a smaller podcast 100%,
Elizabeth, 100%.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So many times people will say to me well, I want to
get Gary V or um, I don't knowwhy I always use that example,
but it's funny because, you know, I used to.
You know, maybe five years ago,I had a lot more male clients
than, like you know, and I I'veswitched a little bit.
I work with far more women atthis point than men.
(31:16):
I still work with men, but farmore women, and at the time,
though, it was the reverse, andso, for some reason, Gary Vee
was the.
He was the blurb du jour.
That's what everybody wanted,and what was interesting about
it was, I said look, Gary, yes,has millions of people following
him and listening to him anddoing whatever he says.
(31:37):
If your book is a romance novel,I'm guessing there are like 17
people in his audience thatwould run and grab that.
On the flip side, you can getyourself on a smaller podcast
that maybe has it's newer, which, by the way, is a lot easier to
get yourself on.
It's not.
(31:57):
You can't even make contactwith Call Her Daddy.
I mean, you know, hello, likethat's.
Probably my dream at this pointis to be on Call Her Daddy, but
you can't even reach thosehosts directly.
You know there's a wholeprocess for that and it's very
much like in the traditionalpublishing world.
A lot of the editors, theacquisitions editors, will only
(32:21):
talk to agents.
In the podcasting world, a lotof those booking folks will only
talk to publicists.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And so sometimes the gatekeepers, yeah, the
gatekeepers.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
And sometimes, when you're paying that 1010,000 to
$15,000 to $25,000 for athree-month retainer with a
publicist, that is what you'repaying for is the fact that they
have not just a list but theyhave a personal.
The more personal relationshipsthey have, the more you are
understandably and reasonablygoing to be asked to pay for
(32:56):
that.
That.
Just to me, that makes totalsense.
So if you can find a smallerpodcast that's just getting its
legs and you can reach out tothe host directly, but their
listeners are exactly yourmarket, yes, you are going to
have more traction with thatthan you will going to talk to
(33:16):
the Gary Vee folks.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Exactly.
And then it kind of like wekind of mentioned earlier, it's
snowball, somebody will hear youon that podcast and they'll be
like, oh, I want her to be on myshow or I want to follow this
person and now I'm going toconnect.
It's just wild, like visibility, it it is you really.
Once you get in there, it justhappens.
(33:40):
It's beautiful.
I love it.
And, again, I think podcastsare the gift that keep on keeps
on giving.
Granted, there are some peoplewho are like I don't want to be
on camera because podcasts youknow now, like 90% of or 80, I
don't know the percentage, but alot of them I don't either.
But right, and I'm always like,okay, let's do a little media
(34:01):
co-chair, let's get your feetwet, you know cause you do have
to push yourself and not all ofthem are on camera and not all
of them.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
This one, for example , isn't.
I mean, I do clips, but I haveyet to put this on YouTube as
video, because I truly have tohire someone for that.
I don't have another thing.
And then some people just don'teven want it.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
They're like I don't know how to show up or whatever
but that's where you know youcan also.
there's so many.
I was just working withsomebody recently who we just
got a blog post of hers.
Like, honestly, we repurposedone of her sub stack newsletters
or emails or articles, I shouldsay, on CNBC their Sunday
(34:37):
edition.
Now I don't know how manyreaders she you know how many
book sales she gets from that,but I do like that there's a
direct link to her website.
I do like that there's thesedirect links for ease and also
for search engine optimizationand then you get some
credibility with that media logoas well.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
There are other ways that I say right, this second
I'm like dive into podcast.
Do it, you won't regret it.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I think what a lot of people in this space don't
recognize, because unfortunately, the loudest voices are often
the ones that are saying I canteach you in five minutes how to
make 17 good trillion dollarsand it's only going to cost you
seven dollars.
But I can, you know I can dothat, or it's going to cost you
70,000.
Who knows.
What a lot of people don'trealize is how long of a game
(35:31):
this is, and I take greatcomfort in that, because if I
feel like, oh my gosh, I havefive minutes to figure this out
and if I don't, I'm dead in thewater, that gives me great
anxiety.
I love the idea that it's justkind of it's its own story pun
intended being told.
(35:51):
One of my sons the other dayactually asked me because I got
two more books in the mail.
One was from the new book ofpoems by Miranda Cowley Heller,
who is from Paper Palace, andthe other was Jane Hamilton's
new one.
But they're both arcs and I wasjust so excited I just thought
I can't believe that these arejust showing up on my doorstep.
(36:13):
And my son said how are yougetting these people on the
podcast?
And I said you know what?
I'm a hundred.
And not only am I 128 episodesin, but this is my fourth
podcast and I've been doing thisfor nine years the book, the
book coaching thing, not thepodcast.
The podcast has only been abouta year, but in that time I've
(36:35):
met people who have said oh, letme, you need to have Jordan.
Roeder was on, you know,several weeks ago and she said
you've got to have Melissa De LaCruz.
That's how Melissa and Iconnected.
And so once Jordan who'sfriends with Melissa reaches out
and says, hey, melissa, you'vegot to go on this podcast,
melissa's like okay, but thosethings take time and I don't
(36:59):
look at things as beingtransactional.
I'm never having someone onthis podcast so that I can then
go back to them and say hey, soI had you on my podcast, can you
introduce me to someone?
I've never done that and Ithink there might be people who
would tell me that I've missedan opportunity there.
That just never felt good to me.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, and I and I think the whole thing and I love
that, I love what you're sayingso much because it is the
author community is so embracingand it is so wonderful.
You just have to connect withthe right people.
Wonderful, you just have toconnect with the right people.
Put your heart into honestly.
something else I do because whenI was working in the
(37:42):
entertainment world especially,you have you know so many people
doing trying to get productplacement or this and that, like
I, send out mailers toinfluencers all the time.
Now, influencer is a veryinteresting word.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
It really is, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I don't even really gravitate.
I'm not a big fan of that word.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Me either.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I don't know how else to say it, but let me say I
will send out to people.
It could be a femaleentrepreneur who I've taken one
of her programs, or it could bean author who I respect, or
Kristen Davis.
Recently she's the actress onCharlotte on Sex and City.
And I never worked with her inperson, but I remember when I
was living in LA after HurricaneKatrina, I volunteered with a
(38:28):
rescue organization calledRescue for Refugees and they
brought in, you know, hundredsof dogs and cats who were like
abandoned in New Orleans, andshe was part of it and we all
just took.
I ended up fostering a dog forlike four months.
She was just absolutely solovely, and when my book came
(38:48):
out, I felt that she wouldreally like it, and so, you know
, I sent her a copy with youknow, just a mailer that has
some QR codes and stuff likethat, but a heartfelt letter and
I guess like to land the planeon this one.
I think that it's all aboutbeing authentic, doing what
feels good in your heart, beingon those shows that you actually
(39:11):
like and respect, like I justadore you, I'm like, I love
Elizabeth, I just think you'refantastic on so many levels, but
I think that the more that youconnect with people not try to
make it transactional, butreally like genuinely like.
I want to know you and I want tobe in your world and I want to
support you.
I write reviews for people allthe time.
(39:33):
Yes, you know, I share shelfieslike I'll get a book.
It doesn't even have to be aclient and I'll take a picture
and you know a little selfieposted on Instagram.
I'll do everything to support.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You know, you, you do kind of get like.
This past week I was inPortland and so my oldest
daughter and I went to Powell'sand, by the way, no one like I
would have really appreciated alittle warning, meaning, get a
plan for like five hours, take asuitcase, buy an extra suitcase
(40:04):
, like all the things, okay.
And so we go into Powell's andif anyone's been to anyone who
has been to Powell's who'slistening, knows exactly what I
mean.
It's four floors, you're in amaze, it's just, it's
unbelievable.
And I found I was looking forI'm always looking for my
(40:24):
friend's books in there.
I have a local group of writersthat I've become really close
to and I'm always looking atokay, are there books here?
Are there books here?
And my friend, neely ChobatiAlexander, just launched her
newest one, courtroom Drama.
So I was looking for that, andwhenever I see them, I take
pictures and I post them tosocial media.
And then we went to um, wherewere we?
(40:45):
Cannon beach, and there wasthis darling bookstore, cannon
beach books company.
It was so I can't even.
They had one copy of every bookthat they sold, just one, which
made me think of Ryan Holiday'sstore in, I think, austin, the
Red Porch, I think it's calledBecause he too, I believe they
(41:06):
only stock one copy of each book, so they can have.
It's not a huge store, and so Iwas like, oh my God, this is I
don't even know.
It was great, though, and one ofthe first books I saw was Super
Bloom by Meg Tatey, who I love,and I just was like, oh my God,
like she's here, you know.
(41:26):
And then I discovered anotherbook called Libby Lost and Found
, and when I was growing up, mynickname was Libby until eighth
grade, and you never see thatand so I immediately bought that
.
It's by Stephanie Booth, if I'mnot mistaken.
I'll put it in the show notes.
And then I posted that andStephanie replied, and that's
how I connected with Stephanie.
(41:47):
Like it's not abouttransactions, it's really about
just.
So, even if you're an authorand you're not sure how to
promote your own book, here's anidea Just start promoting other
people's books.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yes, yes, how often?
Because I know people do liketactical.
They're like oh, this soundsgreat and everything, but what
can I do?
So if someone's just gettinggoing on Instagram or the?
So what is your recommendation?
Is it pick one platform?
Is it pick three platforms?
Is it post five times a day?
(42:26):
Is it be?
How do you?
If someone is really unsure andI know we're giving general
advice here and you'd give muchmore specific advice if you were
working with someone one-on-onebut how do you kind of what's
some general guidance you canprovide?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Okay, it's so, so important, such a great question
I am.
I like to be very strategicabout everything.
I mean, don't get me wrong,I'll throw a story up there.
That's just my silly dog.
If there's not an intentionbehind it, it's just fine, you
know.
But but when?
When it comes to efforts, Idon't like to waste my time, I
like to um, I'd rather bewriting, right, you know.
(43:01):
So I'm not a big social mediaperson.
I'm not a big fan of it.
Um, it's not good for, like, mybrain and stuff.
However, I understand theimportance of it.
So I'm a big believer in goingdeep versus wide, and I also
believe that.
Yes, I know, I know we're likeso, we're so aligned, we're so
(43:24):
in sync.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
So aligned, but I am.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I'm like let's go deep versus wide, you can't be
everywhere.
You can't do all the things, andjust because somebody told you
you should be on this platform,if it doesn't speak to you, if
it gives you a headache whenyou're there, go somewhere else.
You know there's plenty ofplaces to go.
So the number the first thingthat I always recommend people
to do for, let's say, an authorplatform, because it's what
everyone talks about, right?
(43:46):
So I have.
I've always recommended clientsto have a newsletter of some
sort.
Now I don't anymore,necessarily because Substack has
become so big, but I still do.
But for people it can I mean upto, I think, depending on who
like MailChimp, I think is up to500 contacts free, but when you
(44:09):
start paying money, Iunderstand my list is very large
.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
So it's it's as an author.
Is your last list very large,or as a?
Or?
Do you have two separate lists?
No, they're all the sameSelfish question.
Okay, I'm in the same boat, soI have.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay, and I only send out a newsletter now monthly,
the first Friday of every month,and then when there's like
special announcements and stuff.
But I used to be weekly, but Idon't do that anymore.
As far as, so, let's talk abouthaving somewhere that they can
put in their email address, likehaving something where you can
reach them in some way, whereit's written content I believe
(44:46):
is important because it's alonger form.
You can also get them to yourInstagram through that email or
the newsletter, like, oh my God,I just posted this.
It was hilarious, did you seeit?
You know?
Yeah, whatever, but also forsocial media, choose one or two
(45:06):
and go deep versus wide.
So for me personally, do I havea LinkedIn?
Of course I do.
Am I on it?
No, I have so many people whoshould be on LinkedIn.
I'm like eh, you know, I also,um, I have um.
Instagram is kind of my go-to,I guess.
Uh and I post usually two tothree times a week.
(45:28):
I try to do one reel times aweek.
I try to do one reel and then Ialso do usually two static
posts and I do stories usuallyabout five times a week.
Okay, this is so refreshing.
I also am very intentional.
Once a week, like I have awhole list of things that I want
to promote.
So, like once a week, like I'llpost in a story a review of the
(45:53):
week for my book, right Like a,either create it in Canva or
take a screenshot of somethingand just be like oh, it's a
review.
Thank you so much to everyonewho's reviewed.
If you read it and you haven't,I would really appreciate it.
Blah, blah, blah.
Or here's my book.
It's on sale this week or youknow.
So it's.
It's kind of like it'sInstagram with intention.
(46:15):
Ooh, look at you creating a buzzphrase, but it's also, but it's
also to connect with peopleLike I really want to provide
them value.
I'm I'm like.
The world is dark on socialmedia, so I like to provide
inspiration and light.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Well, it's never ending too.
You know, and I think we, whenI talked to Jane Friedman a
couple of weeks ago so a fewepisodes back, if anyone wants
to go listen to it we talked alot about Substack, because Jane
has a successful Substack.
Jane also has an enormousaudience.
Yes, and I think a lot ofpeople at this point will feel
like, oh my gosh is Substack.
The new thing Is that where Ineed to be Much like is
(46:50):
Periscope.
I always joke about Periscopebecause I feel like it was
around for about 45 seconds.
For those 45 seconds, everymajor influencer and guru and
everybody was like go, go, go.
Same thing, sort of same thingwith threads, although threads
has held on.
I haven't held on to threads,I've let go of threads, but it
(47:12):
as a platform has stayed fairly.
And now there's blue sky andthere's just so many and I think
it can be so easy to think, oh,the magic is over there and
it's like no, the magic is whereyou take the time to deeply
build community, get youralgorithm work.
I hate the word so much, but Irecently reset mine and finally
(47:36):
I'm seeing books and not clipsfrom white Lotus, which I was.
I mean, listen, the algorithmworks, if nothing else, because
all I was talking about andwatching at that time it was the
when the last season came outof white Lotus was was White
Lotus.
It knows what you're into.
(47:57):
So your Discover page is veryindicative of not only what
Instagram specifically isshowing you, but who Instagram
is showing your stuff to.
The author space is just trickybecause it's and this is a
whole podcast in and of itself.
Maybe we'll do another one onthis like just instagram, how to
(48:19):
?
Maybe you, jen and I can allget on a three-way podcast,
right and and like, becausethat's not, that's you guys all
day.
I'm over here justpredominantly experimenting, but
I've never been a person whodoes great with a schedule, and
I'm following someone right nowwho I really enjoy.
(48:42):
She's not an author, but she isa social media content creator
person and her thing is you'vegot to post at exactly to the
minute, the same time every day,so that Instagram learns that
you are reliable.
And I thought well, I'm notreliable.
Right, you can rely on the factthat I am not reliable.
(49:04):
I don't even know what day itis, emily, and you want me to
remember to post at 9.07?
Speaker 2 (49:15):
want me to remember to post at nine, oh seven, like
I, well, and I'm all aboutinspired action, because I
believe in energy behind everysingle thing.
I know it sounds woo woo butlike it's just, it is what it is
.
But there's also schedulingtools.
You know, like later, whereit'll post it for you.
And see, I don't like to doscheduling tools, I don't mind,
um, and I've done it for clients, I've done it for people like
the back end of the schedulingtool, but instead of posting it,
(49:38):
you want to say send me analert and I'll post it myself,
because, my goodness, you don'twant to post, like the happiest
thing in the world, unbeknownstto you, five minutes.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
That's my greatest fear.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Totally so, 100%.
And also, I tell people you canchange your mind, like Glennon
Doyle was all over Instagram fora long time with her podcast
and everything and then all of asudden she was like I'm not
going to be on social mediaanymore.
It's not good for me.
She created with MailChimp,just a newsletter, just a
(50:11):
general newsletter.
Then she I think becauseElizabeth Gilbert is such a just
a general newsletter.
Then she, I think becauseElizabeth Gilbert is such a like
a fan of Substack.
She's like now I'm coming outwith Substack and you're like
okay.
And then, like the next day orthree days later, it's like you
know what?
I didn't really like Substack.
So now I'm back to thenewsletter.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
And you're like all right, and you know what, that's
okay, as long as, in my world,as long as you're not jumping
just to jump and you're justjumping all.
Sometimes you have to make amove and then in order to say, I
like this or I don't, or Iliked this and now I don't, and
you don't know.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
You don't always know what it's like until you get in
there.
You know that's the thing too.
It's just everything in life,right?
Speaker 1 (50:50):
And I love scheduling .
I use later.
For a long time Now I useTailwind occasionally, only
occasionally.
But then people will come tothe forefront and say, well, if
you use a scheduling tool,instagram deprioritizes it.
So then you're like what do Ido?
And I think what it comes downto is know what your goal is,
(51:14):
know who you are, know whatyou're capable of and know that
it can change.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
And it does, and it changes all the time and you'll
never master the rules of thealgorithms, because when you do,
it'll change Correct, or youknow.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Instagram used to be just a picture, now it's reels
and stories and this and that,so it's sort of like Now it's
four by five and not one to oneand I think that, whether you're
an author or another type ofcreator, or even just a business
owner, an entrepreneur,whatever, you get caught up
because we want to be able tocontrol it.
(51:48):
We don't want to feel like we'rewasting time.
Nobody wants to feel likethey're wasting time.
No one wants to feel likethey're shouting into the void,
which is what so much of thisoften feels like, and I think
the knowledge and thereassurance that that's what
everyone's doing and you're notbehind because you're in that
(52:09):
space.
You're just one of us in thatspace, you're.
You're just one, you're justone of us.
Yeah, Um, there are people whohave hundreds and hundreds of
thousands of followers with noengagement.
There are people who have verysmall numbers of followers with
massive off platform businessesand engagement.
There are people who eschewsocial media altogether and do
(52:30):
just fine, but it's you know,and so, okay, we're going to do
another episode where I'm goingto call Jen.
We're going to do like a threething.
That would be really, I think,with some really tactical,
practical stuff.
I would love that.
Wouldn't that be fun?
Speaker 2 (52:46):
So fun It'd be so helpful because this is the
number one thing.
It doesn't matter who I'mworking with or if I'm doing a
workshop for a publishing houseor whatever.
The number one thing people areso overwhelmed they keep
hearing authors are like I haveto have a platform, I have to do
this, I have to do that.
(53:06):
I want people to buy my books.
Wait, and it's so overwhelmingand anything that we can do to
simplify, take the stress awayand have.
I think it's so important forpeople to celebrate their work,
like have fun with it too.
Like you know, it's there's somuch to be proud of and not to
(53:27):
get caught up in like all thethat.
I have to do this and I have todo it that way.
Throw that out the window, doit your way.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
It's such an accomplishment just to release
the book.
Yes, and what's interesting is,I find that author's launch day
is often the most anticlimacticday, because it's just, I don't
know what we expect, but it justthat happens and we're like
okay, and then what it feelslike is and I'm just kind of
realizing this right now, andwe're like okay, and then what
it feels like is and I'm justkind of realizing this right now
it feels like you've reachedthe top of the mountain, because
(53:56):
you published the book thatyou've been working on or
thinking about or dreaming aboutfor so long, and then in an
instant, you're at the bottom ofthe new mountain which is now
how do I get this to be seen?
So sometimes I tell people thatthe writing of it, if you're
looking at it as a long journey,if you look at it as one huge
(54:21):
mountain, the writing of it isthe first third, the editing of
it is the second third and thepromo of it.
In fact, you could even divideit into quarters, where it's
like the writing is the firstquarter, the editing is the
second quarter, the launchingand the promo is the hat is the
final half.
It's like summits, right,absolutely, absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Instead, because I think it's very I like that.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
Well, I think it feels not good for people when
they launch and then they'relike, oh God, like, are we there
yet?
And so if your perspective isswitched right from the jump of,
first of all, there is nosummit, really, unless you have
a self-defined one.
If your self-defined summit isI launched the book, then you're
(55:04):
not even listening to thisepisode because you don't care
about any of this, right?
If your self-defined summit isI want to be on the New York
Times list, then that's yourNorth star.
That's what you're shooting for, and for each book it can be
different as well.
So, okay, we're going to doanother one.
I always ask people what areyou reading now?
Speaker 2 (55:22):
Oh, my gosh, it's such a great question and it's
so funny.
Okay, so I?
I am one of those people thathas a couple of books that I
reread one or two times a year.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
What are they here?
That's a lot, you know, okay,but what are they Cause if?
If it's one of the ones that Iread, I don't know what I'm
gonna do.
Oh my gosh, okay Well one ofthem.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
It's one of my favorite books in the whole
entire world.
It's the alchemist by PaoloCoelho.
No really, we're like twinning.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
It's so good, right?
Every time I read it, I getsomething different Every time
and it's such a good thing.
Would you believe, Emily, thatI interviewed someone and I
would call her out by name?
But I'm not going to try to gethate thrown her way because
she's lovely, she was lovely andshe hated the Alchemist Really,
yes, but I'm okay with it.
(56:10):
I told her that I said listen,this is, I mean, I accept you.
I'm judging you a little bit,but I like, for every incredible
book that someone's like thisis the best thing I've ever,
ever, ever read, there will besomeone who's like this sucks, I
hated this.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
Oh no, and that's so true, it's 100%.
But I mean Palakwa paula, likewhen you think about the
alchemist.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
It was, wasn't it like years until people even
knew about it the story is and Idon't know if it's true,
because I got to get paulo onthe.
Oh my god, mr coelho.
Um, as the story goes, he soldone copy to someone in the first
year.
That person lost their copy andbought another copy, so he sold
two copies, but it was to thesame person, and then it went
(56:54):
out of print and he knocked onevery door, like not every house
door, but the door of everypublishing house in whatever
country he was in, and they allsaid no.
And then look at it now.
And then look at it now.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
And also talking about a long tail books.
I believe it was last year, itcould have been, let's just say,
in the last 18 months.
Will Smith was coming out witha big movie or something.
He was being interviewed orsomebody said what was your
favorite book growing up?
Or whatever.
He said oh the alchemist.
And he talks about Santiago andthe journey.
And the next thing you know,number one, you know again,
(57:29):
right Again.
And then it's got like a hundred, because I follow him on
Instagram and he usually postslike just a couple of he doesn't
do anything fancy and itdoesn't but anyways and he did
like a thank you to Will Smithlike on his Instagram he usually
just posts his morning walk butI was like this is the magic of
books.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
You know the point.
I want to get to Emily, where Ijust post my morning walk and
people care or don't.
Speaker 2 (57:53):
I don't care, and that's it.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
That's it, okay.
What's the second book you readevery year?
Speaker 2 (57:59):
Um, I also read, not necessarily every year, but a
lot.
I revisit the four agreements,a lot by Don McGill.
I just think it's really good,um, especially kind of when I
feel like the world gets alittle chaotic or something like
.
I just feel like it grounds meand it's just it's packed with
really important principles.
I think, and you know, I kindof I tend to rotate between a
(58:24):
novel and some sort of personalgrowth, like something that'll
kind of like or a bio orsomething you know, just
something.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
Something you could, and I learn a lot from fiction
as much as I learned fromnon-fiction.
It's so interesting, but I do.
And okay, well, I adore you andwe are going to do another one
with Jen DePaula.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
I would love that.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
She doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to tell her
in about five minutes and thankyou so much.
I will put all of your links inthe notes and we're going to do
this again.
Thank you, elizabeth, I can'twait.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
(59:07):
someone you know has a greatstory or message, but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
Thank you.
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in.
Be sure to reveal that a resulttook eight years or required a
$30,000 investment in ads,because those details are just
as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game, is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing tips and
solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody and welcome tothis next episode of Write the
Damn Book Already.
When Emily Florence reached outto me about coming on the
podcast, she well, she had mefrom the first paragraph, but
she definitely had me when shementioned that she had worked on
Gilmore Girls as a publicistback in the day.
(01:26):
That is a show.
I'm almost borderline obsessedwith it every fall.
She's the author of Even Better, easier Ways to a Happier Life,
which was noted as thefeel-good book of 2024 by Yahoo
Finance, and you're going tounderstand why when you have
this conversation.
I was just so happy when Iunderstand why when you have
this conversation I was just sohappy when I got through the end
(01:47):
of this conversation.
I think, as typically happenswith this podcast and with the
book space in general, I found anew friend and it's definitely
safe to say that this will notbe my last conversation with
Emily when it comes to bookpublicity.
Much like my beloved Jen HansenDePaula, emily is such a
(02:09):
go-with-the-flow, no-pressure,no-drama person when it comes to
author publicity and I know youare just going to love
everything she has to say.
So let's just get on with theconversation.
First of all, I can't wait totalk about all things publicity,
(02:31):
because it's such a it's like aminefield to talk about this
and I feel like when we starttalking about it, people get
excited and then they get very.
It.
People get excited and thenthey get very.
It's like it's trepidatious,because I think people wonder
what am I going to have to do?
(02:51):
And my motto, which you may ormay not know, is you don't have
to do anything.
I think that's so important toremind people maybe just myself
of we don't have to do anything,and yet if we don't do anything
.
We don't get to come back andgo.
(03:11):
Nothing's selling, no one'sbuying it and I feel like and
this is a little bit of a longersegue or intro than I was
anticipating here, but I don'tknow if you talk to, so I'm
asking you do you talk to a lotof people who tend to lead with?
I don't really care if my bookmakes any money.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I have.
So okay, so I work with, I meanI work with publishing houses
and I host workshops for them,for their authors and then I
work independently.
I do, like I have a DIY PRcourse which is just self-study,
I have group coaching, I havefull service publicity and then
I also have consulting, which iskind of the sweet spot.
(03:56):
So I'll tell you and you and Iare kind of alike, because I
think we work with a lot ofwomen entrepreneurs too.
So to answer your questiondirectly, it's yes and no.
Like I have a client right now,lisa, who's like just she
considers her book like aglorified business card, so she
doesn't really care about allthese book sales.
It was more to give her kind ofcredibility.
(04:17):
She also wanted to be on morestages and things like that.
Right, readers, she definitely.
And things like that, thereaders, she definitely.
It wasn't.
Like that wasn't her topobjective, right.
And then I have other otherclients or people I work with
who are like 100% they want to,you know, make it their author
(04:40):
career.
They want to sell enough copies.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
That that's all they have to do.
Yeah, well, and I think youraise a really good and
interesting point.
So last week I was talking toMelissa de la Cruz, who is, you
know, was written 80, 80 booksnow Crazy, right.
And her thing was you've got toknow what your goal is.
Yes, and I completely agreewith that, and it's one of the
(05:05):
first things that I talk topeople about is what is your
goal?
So, in line with that, whensomeone says, well, I'm using my
book as a glorified businesscard which I've talked about how
much I hate that phrase I haveI have a right.
I'd see it in your face.
But we, we both know whateverybody means when they write,
when they say that if I sayright, one more time, I'm going
(05:25):
to lose it.
Knowing that your book isintended to be the entry point
for people to find out moreabout you, to connect with you
more, is a great.
That's what a lot of peoplemean.
When they say, I don't care ifthe book makes money, what
they're saying is they don'tcare if they make a full-time
living off sales of their book,which, as we all either know or
(05:49):
will now know, isextraordinarily difficult to do
Extraordinarily.
Then there's the other side ofit, where I hear people say well
, I truly don't care if I makemoney, I just want to help
people, which I think is solovely, so, so lovely.
Either they have another sourceof income or and they truly
don't care if I make money, Ijust want to help people, which
(06:10):
I think is so lovely, so, solovely.
Either they have another sourceof income or and they truly
don't care.
There's somewhere in the middle, though, where I think people
say it because they're trying toprotect themselves, because
they're afraid.
They know that they feelnervous about doing the
publicity, and by tellingthemselves, I don't really care
if it doesn't, it's protectingthemselves from needing to go
(06:30):
out and do something that theydon't necessarily want to do.
So I'm really excited to getyour thoughts on what's and see
the air quotes working, what'snot working, what are some new
things that people are trying?
And first, I need to ask youwhat you did with the Gilmore
Girls, because so good right.
When you sent me your email, Imean you had me from the first
(06:53):
paragraph.
But when we got to the GilmoreGirls and you said you had
worked on the Gilmore Girls andAmerican Idol but the Gilmore
Girls, I was like we're donehere.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I know it's just like my heart.
Um, yeah, so I I did mymaster's in broadcast journalism
from Emerson and then I wasworking in the news in um,
producing Okay, and then Iswitched over.
I wanted to come back toCalifornia.
I went to LA and and startedworking as a publicist just the
other side, you know, and at aphenomenal agency top in Beverly
(07:29):
Hills.
And so I was a publicist for inthe TV department for American
Idol, gilmore Girls, so youThink you Can Dance, just tons,
a lot of shows.
Gilmore Girls has a specialplace in my heart because
sometimes you representsomething and you absolutely
love it, and sometimes yourepresent something and it's
(07:49):
more just a job.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
That's a great point.
Yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
It's so great and I can't believe like they left us,
kind of like I am not.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I'm still very displeased, I know.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I'm like I know they've moved on and done all
these other great shows, but I'mlike can you just circle back?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
please Like, who leaves us off with I'm pregnant?
Well, they did.
I know I still love them.
I mean it's I've watched itwith both my daughters mostly my
older daughter and we justwatch it over and over.
There's like a time of yearwhen we always put it on.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
It's always in the fall, coming like I was just
about to say, elizabeth, it'ssuch a fall, yeah, it's a fall
show Like it's so great.
I know, I do too, I'm the sameway I want to live there.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I'm like, where is that?
I know me too.
Okay, I swear if I lived thereI'd do a lot more book publicity
.
So tell me Hollywood.
But bingo, bingo.
So tell me, first of all, do you, do you know Jen Hanson DePaula
?
No, I don't.
Okay, I need to connect the twoof you.
(08:53):
So Jen is my dear friend whoI'm realizing you guys are
extremely similar.
She is, has been in bookpublicity for a long, long time,
and before that she was inmusic publicity from you know,
in the in Nashville for the along long time, and before that
she was in music publicity inNashville in the music industry
oh, fantastic.
And so she has been for yearsmy go-to for books, which is the
(09:15):
other reason I was reallyexcited to hear from you,
because there just aren't manypeople in the space, I find, who
authentically know what they'retalking about, meaning they're
willing to say I don't know,they're willing to admit this is
a very odd, it's just kind ofan odd space.
(09:38):
There are no guarantees, we'reall throwing darts at the wall
and I think that even that,coming from an industry expert,
professional, is so reassuringto authors.
So just tell me, what do youlove about book publicity?
What do you feel like on theauthor side?
(10:00):
What do you feel like isavailable now for authors that
should excite and I don't likethe word should, but should
excite authors.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah, I mean I'm just because I'm so passionate about
helping authors andentrepreneurs, because I that's
that's me too.
You know, I have a book out andI've been on the journey and oh
my gosh, and we have tochampion each other and I am all
about that, like I absolutelylove connecting people too and
(10:30):
helping them like share theirbooks, and just let's all do
this together.
We're all in it together.
So I'm a big believer in thatand I just have always had a
special passion for authors andfor entrepreneurs and I think
putting yourself out there issuch a big deal and I commend
every single person.
It is not easy, but I reallyjust connect with authors and
(10:57):
entrepreneurs.
That's why I kind of you know Ileft the entertainment world to
say I want to really helppeople and then I also want to
help people help themselves.
So what was your question again, elizabeth?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
That's the best moment.
So where were we going?
Like, what do you find exciting, my brother?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
would be like land the plane.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Listen, if we don't keep this reined in Emily, we're
both going to go.
The whole audience is going tobe like are they ever going to
come back to center?
Will they ever land the plane?
And the answer is I don't.
I don't know.
My original question was whatis exciting to you about?
You know, for authors I mean,let me just say really quickly,
(11:38):
because you said something andif I don't say it I'll forget it
.
I have talked to a lot ofauthors at this point in the
traditional indie hybrid, itdoesn't matter how they're
published, and one thing I havecome to really rest assured with
is that, even though the bookindustry is very windy and it's
(12:03):
turbulent and it's unpredictableand, as Jane Friedman said,
it's the one area that she canthink of and I can't think of
one either, another one eitherwhere there are no guarantees,
you know it's not like well, ifyou stick with this for 10 years
, you are assured to fill in theblank.
You're not assured to anythingbeyond finish the next book,
(12:24):
because that's the only thingover which you have control.
We've certainly heard and seenthe cattiness that can happen in
this industry, sadly,especially among women in the
Goodreads community, et cetera.
That being said, I find this tobe one of the most supportive,
lovely communities.
(12:46):
I have met some of my dearestfriends.
Like people like I'm already, Ican already tell you you're not
we're, you're not rid of mewhen we get off this interview.
I find that it's such awonderful space where people
don't feel like it's my book oryour book so I've got to be
cutthroat.
(13:06):
It could be both.
Let's figure out how someonewho likes my book will also
benefit from your book and let'ssee how we could do this
together, which also createsthis sense of I'm not alone in
this.
I'm doing it with someone else.
So if we win, we both win.
If we air quote fail, we bothfail, we do it together.
(13:26):
And it feels a little safer.
Absolutely.
I agree 100%.
When you work with authors,because you do it in a whole
bunch of different capacities.
When you get started withsomeone who says and this is
even a hard question becauseit's going to depend on genre
(13:46):
but, like, I want to get my bookout there to as many people who
will enjoy it as possible, doyou have a a first step?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yes, I do and I have a first step for everybody too,
and it's like it's kind of whatyou were mentioning too goals.
I always kind of start withobjectives same thing, different
, different.
And I find that authors that Iwork with it's one of three
things.
For the most part, it's eithernumber one they want an author
career and they want to sellbooks.
I mean, this is like something.
(14:21):
It's not just that they pouredtheir heart into one project,
they want a future for thisAnother, you know.
Then also there's the otherpeople who are like you know
what this is just like we talkedabout the business card.
They're like I want this bookto build credibility.
So many people I meet,especially in the nonfiction
(14:42):
genre, especially people who arecoaches or they have, you know,
some sort of practices.
They want to see themselves aslike the go-to on CNN or the
go-to on the Today Show or being, you know, speaking on stages.
It's not like they reallypoured their heart.
They're not like me who want tolike, enjoy, like sitting in a
room for seven hours alonetyping, like I love that, right?
(15:04):
Not everybody is like, right.
So and then there's otherpeople who really just, they're
like I just want visibility.
They're like I just want to beout there and kind of with any
campaign there is a little bitof you know, throwing something
against the wall and seeing whatsticks.
But it is so important thatpeople at least have an idea of
(15:25):
their number one, number two,number three objectives, because
it's going to it's changes thewhole way that you're going to
go about things.
Like if I want like, for yourexample, if somebody says I want
to get this book in the handsof as many readers as possible
who are also going to appreciateit and get value from it.
Right, which is so importantyou pour your heart into
(15:49):
something.
You want other people, you wantto have a positive impact on
others.
Books change lives in the bestway.
So in that kind of situationyou would be like okay, we want
to target, you want to be really, really clear on who your
audience is, and then you wantto get in the media that are
going to be serving thataudience.
(16:10):
So that's not necessarily thesame situation for somebody who
says, hey, I want to buildcredibility.
Now, credibility is alwaysgoing to be about media logos
that are very recognizable.
Now, they don't have to berecognizable across like
national media, as far as thetoday show or a GMA or or
whatever, or NPR or entrepreneurForbes, it can also be in that
(16:35):
genre, you know.
So I have a client right nowthat I'm working with and she's
a mom of four and she wrote thisincredible book about, you know
, doing less in motherhood, likekind of modern motherhood, and
her credibility.
While she does, you know it isone of her, you know, targets to
objectives.
She does want to be, you know,at some point at the GMA couch,
(16:57):
so we're working on pitches foryou know, figuring that out, but
also a lot of the mom podcastblogs, media.
They might not be recognizableto everyone, but when she has
those logos on her website orsomebody says she's been here,
it's credibility for her in thatgenre Right.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Right.
So question about that howreasonable do you feel it is
anymore to shoot for, say, todayShow, good Morning America,
beyond it being a bucket listitem?
Yeah, Right, so I know that alot of people that you know.
When Oprah was on, that was thedream I want to be on Oprah, so
(17:43):
many people would say that.
What people don't, what a lot ofpeople don't realize, is that
the reality of, and especiallytoday, but the reality of
getting on the Today Show isyou're going to move fewer than
300 books by being on the TodayShow, and that was even maybe a
decade ago.
Like, I don't even know what itis today because people don't
(18:04):
have cable anymore.
And so how many people areactually watching the Today Show
?
Now to your point.
If you can say I was on theToday Show for even 30 seconds,
yes, it absolutely gives youcredibility, because the Today
Show will not bring on someonewho is not credible.
As far as the moving books, asfar as the moving books, right,
(18:37):
I often have to reset people'sexpectations with that because,
number one, it doesn't do insomeone such as yourself to help
them craft the pitch to getthem on the show and all those
sorts of things.
So I think it really is aboutassessing what are your goals in
doing this.
Same with New York Timesbestseller list, same with all
(18:58):
of that there are people payingsix figures to get on the
bestseller list, just to say Igot on.
So how do you set people'sexpectations?
Because, coming from theHollywood side of it, right, I
certainly understand yourpotential position of look,
there is validity to thosethings too, so just tell me your
perspective on that.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah so, and I and I love to manage people's
expectations and also I'm a bigoptimist and I've seen the big
things happen, right Likethere's magic everywhere.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I mean, look at my, I don't know if people, if
they're not watching, but I havea whole thing that says
everything is possible.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
So yeah, I'm also it's like the optimist, with a
side of heavy, side dose ofrealism A hundred percent, a
hundred percent, with a side aheavy side dose of realism A
hundred percent, a hundredpercent, and I also, I always
tell people who I, you know,work with um and even just
talking to you know you reallyhave to have patience and
tenacity, absolutely Like youreally really have to.
(20:00):
And I remember I don't want togo on a tangent, so let me go
back.
So how do I manage thoseexpectations?
I mean, I'm a big believer inif you have a calling like if
you're like I want to be on GMA,like one of my clients, that is
her goal, like that is whereshe's seen herself and all the
things I'm all about.
Let's swing for the fences andalso let's create a strategy
(20:24):
that you're also going to seeother results, because there's
all, there's momentum in all ofthis stuff.
You can talk about it from amindset, energetic, perspective,
where it's just reallyunhealthy to hear no all the
time.
As somebody who's also, you know, worked with like the American
idols, like the media coaching,you know you have people coming
from all over the country andthey're like Ryan Seacrest, like
(20:46):
welcome to Hollywood, andsuddenly they're being
interviewed by, you know,national media, walking red
carpets.
They're like what do I say?
What do I do?
There is this element, too, oflike get your feet wet, get
really comfortable with yoursound bites, with your talking
points, just you know.
So I like to do a little bit ofboth.
(21:07):
I like to encourage people inwhatever strategy we ultimately
or they create or I create withthem co-create.
I like to have them.
You know you want to havedreams.
I mean that's so important, ofcourse.
And also you need to kind of bea realistic.
And I mean personally and Iknow you asked this earlier,
(21:27):
elizabeth, and I didn't reallyanswer it Like where I find
people are having the mostsuccess right now and the
definition of success meaningthey're connecting with actual
readers and people who arereally interested in their books
are podcasts, and podcaststhere's so many reasons.
It's like, number one, theylive on forever or for a long
(21:51):
time.
And number two, like booksdon't get old.
Books have a long tail.
You know, I can hear about abook that was out five years ago
.
I don't care that it launchedfive years ago, I'm going to go
buy it.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
It's not it's you know, I'm going to, I'm
interrupting you again because Iwill forget.
Do you know what I heard theother day?
That I didn't know what TaylorJenkins read?
Um, seven wives of Evelyn Hugo.
Have you read this?
Uh-uh?
Okay, I need you to.
I don't know what genre youlike, but it doesn't matter.
I need you to put this on yourlist.
This was my first TaylorJenkins read that I got my hands
(22:26):
on and it blew my mind.
That was a.
I believe she released it.
I might be missing, like 2017,but it was a COVID breakthrough.
It did not go berserk untilCOVID, for some reason right.
So, three years later, and thesame can be said that the other
(22:47):
example I've given for years isyou are a badass.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yes, Jen Sincero.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I talk about that all the time.
It was like four years and itwas not expected.
Yes, it was traditionallypublished.
It was like four years and itwas not expected.
Yes, it was traditionallypublished, it was not expected.
Never she does what I do.
She was a book coach, a littledifferently, but same thing.
And then I don't know, rightplace, right time, right cover,
right who knows what, and off itgoes.
(23:13):
So it does have a very longtail, especially today, and even
traditionally published authorstoday are given a little bit
more leeway by their publisher.
It used to be like three weeksIf you don't get this baby
moving in three weeks, we'redone.
Now they've got months, if notsometimes even a year or so.
(23:35):
They give them because theyknow there's always something
new they can try, totally Right.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
So podcasts are absolutely and books are very
word of mouth.
It's like somebody says you gotto read this book, emily, I'm
going to buy it.
Like you, I'm like, okay,putting that in my little cart
right now.
Like I'm like putting in that,putting that in my little cart
right now, um.
(24:03):
But, but yeah, podcasts.
I I steer clients towards andmy coaching students towards at
least exploring podcasts, forthose reasons that they live for
a long time.
Um, you also get um, you knowSEO, that you know if they,
oftentimes you'll ask the hostto link to your website in the
show notes and so you have somesearch engine optimization going
(24:26):
on, which is always lovely.
And you also, you know most,you know ones that are recorded.
You can say to the host youknow, can I get a copy?
And then go and have your VA,your virtual assistant, or do it
yourself.
You make clips so you can have,like, out of an hour podcast
interview, you could have fouror five clips that you can
(24:47):
repurpose on social media.
You know, it's just, it's, it's.
I find it's the gift that keepson giving.
Yes, it's the gift that keepson giving, yes, and also,
podcasts are rare in the sensethat they allow you to go deep
and to really connect withpeople, where even you know I
have people.
I just booked somebody theother day on an NPR and that's
(25:09):
great.
Npr can go a little bit morelike 10, 15 minutes versus like
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
You just go so deep with podcasts, well, that's a
great point because with news,you know if you're on a local
you've got two minutes.
It can feel like the longestand shortest two minutes of your
life.
That's it.
There's no depth to that, it'sjust.
Hey, I was on this news channelthis morning from uh, if we
(25:37):
pull it back to a verygrassroots keeping with the
podcast theme, but a verygrassroots look, I'm a new
author.
I'm not really comfortable withthis.
Yet I don't have a hugeplatform.
You know I'm trying to get out.
There Would podcasts and socialmedia.
What are some ways that youencourage people that are like
(26:02):
bang for your buck, so to speak?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because Ithink people hear oh, you've got
to post three times a day and Ican't even maintain, I can't
and I you know with podcasts togo back to that for two seconds.
One, well, a little more thantwo seconds.
But the thing is that'ssomewhere that some people might
hate it when I say this.
That's a great place to useChatGPT because you can have it,
(26:25):
help you come up with ideas forhow to parse out a podcast clip
or podcast show notes orwhatever into multiple different
types of content, and chat GPTcan also be a great way to help.
You can't I don't believe youshould copy paste.
You got to make it sound likeyou, but come up with ideas.
(26:47):
So how do you help people startwho are like I don't have the
ability or the desire to dothree posts a day?
Show my face.
What valuable content am Igoing to provide?
I've written romanticism, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
No, it's such a great question After so many years of
doing workshops and helpingpeople.
That's when I created this DIYPR course, because I don't like
to break people's banks andeverybody, every author has a
different.
If anybody's listening and theydon't know.
Like, if you're going to hire adecent, good publicist for
(27:27):
three months, which is usually aminimum, it's going to be from
$10,000 to $15,000.
Thank you, it is not cheap,it's not, it's not at all.
It's a huge investment and it'swonderful for people that it's
wonderful for.
And also, there are so manypeople I started meeting, so
(27:50):
many people who were like Ican't, that's just not you know,
and it's not that it's notpossible for me personally, like
I want.
I want us all to do the bestthat we can and I also believe
there's so many people who Iwork with clients, I teach them,
I coach them.
They can do it themselves.
Elizabeth, they're not going todo it all, but they don't have
(28:11):
to.
Like we kind of started out inthe beginning.
You don't have to do it all.
You can do a little bit here, alittle bit there, a little bit
there and watch the momentumkind of build.
I'm also a big believer in likestrategy and I know that's kind
of like a word that can appealto people and also be like.
But I like it because I like tohelp people like put.
(28:32):
You know, I was playingdominoes with my niece the other
day and it was like I like tohelp them put dominoes in a row
and flick the one that's goingto have everything come into
alignment, like I'm all aboutlike let's take the overwhelm
and the stress out of it as muchas possible and be smart about
it.
But to answer your question,like I have a DIY PR course.
(28:54):
I also have group coachingstudents and then I offer like
single sessions to give thosepeople like some one-on-one,
because everyone needs someone-on-one at a rate.
That's, you know, much moreaffordable than investing in a
publicist.
And I would say get started withsome sort of roadmap.
You know, of course I want totell everybody come join my DIY
(29:15):
PR course.
I'll take great care of you,I'll give you all the
information, but you don't haveto do that.
There's so many resources outthere, but you really do have to
have an.
You need to start with what doI want, just like we started
with.
Like what do I want?
You also have to give yourselfsome time.
You have to be realistic of,like, what's a three month plan?
And I'm going to commit to it?
(29:36):
Right, and hey, why not askchat GPT to help you with that?
Right, you know.
But I, every person isdifferent, but, and how much
time they have in their day, oror whatnot?
This one client of mine who Imentioned earlier, she's a
mother of four and, uh, she'sdoing incredible and she also
(29:57):
has she doesn't have five hoursa day to work on pitches and
whatnot.
But I would say decide what youwant, get really clear on what
you want, give yourself atimeline three, six months a
year and I would say go afterpodcasts.
You need to.
The most important thing youneed to do, after identifying
what you want, is who.
The most important thing youneed to do after identifying
(30:17):
what you want is who you'retrying to attract.
Who are your readers?
Because it is so pointless tospend all this time pitching to
a podcast where, let's say, yourideal reader is a woman who's
30 years old.
That's pretty vague, that's noteven very specific, but let's
(30:41):
just go with that.
You're going to have so muchmore success.
You're going to feel so muchbetter and see the results when
you pitch to podcasts.
Who that's their target.
That's their listeners, even ifit's a smaller podcast 100%,
Elizabeth, 100%.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So many times people will say to me well, I want to
get Gary V or um, I don't knowwhy I always use that example,
but it's funny because, you know, I used to.
You know, maybe five years ago,I had a lot more male clients
than, like you know, and I I'veswitched a little bit.
I work with far more women atthis point than men.
(31:16):
I still work with men, but farmore women, and at the time,
though, it was the reverse, andso, for some reason, Gary Vee
was the.
He was the blurb du jour.
That's what everybody wanted,and what was interesting about
it was, I said look, Gary, yes,has millions of people following
him and listening to him anddoing whatever he says.
(31:37):
If your book is a romance novel,I'm guessing there are like 17
people in his audience thatwould run and grab that.
On the flip side, you can getyourself on a smaller podcast
that maybe has it's newer, which, by the way, is a lot easier to
get yourself on.
It's not.
(31:57):
You can't even make contactwith Call Her Daddy.
I mean, you know, hello, likethat's.
Probably my dream at this pointis to be on Call Her Daddy, but
you can't even reach thosehosts directly.
You know there's a wholeprocess for that and it's very
much like in the traditionalpublishing world.
A lot of the editors, theacquisitions editors, will only
(32:21):
talk to agents.
In the podcasting world, a lotof those booking folks will only
talk to publicists.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And so sometimes the gatekeepers, yeah, the
gatekeepers.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
And sometimes, when you're paying that 1010,000 to
$15,000 to $25,000 for athree-month retainer with a
publicist, that is what you'repaying for is the fact that they
have not just a list but theyhave a personal.
The more personal relationshipsthey have, the more you are
understandably and reasonablygoing to be asked to pay for
(32:56):
that.
That.
Just to me, that makes totalsense.
So if you can find a smallerpodcast that's just getting its
legs and you can reach out tothe host directly, but their
listeners are exactly yourmarket, yes, you are going to
have more traction with thatthan you will going to talk to
(33:16):
the Gary Vee folks.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Exactly.
And then it kind of like wekind of mentioned earlier, it's
snowball, somebody will hear youon that podcast and they'll be
like, oh, I want her to be on myshow or I want to follow this
person and now I'm going toconnect.
It's just wild, like visibility, it it is you really.
Once you get in there, it justhappens.
(33:40):
It's beautiful.
I love it.
And, again, I think podcastsare the gift that keep on keeps
on giving.
Granted, there are some peoplewho are like I don't want to be
on camera because podcasts youknow now, like 90% of or 80, I
don't know the percentage, but alot of them I don't either.
But right, and I'm always like,okay, let's do a little media
(34:01):
co-chair, let's get your feetwet, you know cause you do have
to push yourself and not all ofthem are on camera and not all
of them.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
This one, for example , isn't.
I mean, I do clips, but I haveyet to put this on YouTube as
video, because I truly have tohire someone for that.
I don't have another thing.
And then some people just don'teven want it.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
They're like I don't know how to show up or whatever
but that's where you know youcan also.
there's so many.
I was just working withsomebody recently who we just
got a blog post of hers.
Like, honestly, we repurposedone of her sub stack newsletters
or emails or articles, I shouldsay, on CNBC their Sunday
(34:37):
edition.
Now I don't know how manyreaders she you know how many
book sales she gets from that,but I do like that there's a
direct link to her website.
I do like that there's thesedirect links for ease and also
for search engine optimizationand then you get some
credibility with that media logoas well.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
There are other ways that I say right, this second
I'm like dive into podcast.
Do it, you won't regret it.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I think what a lot of people in this space don't
recognize, because unfortunately, the loudest voices are often
the ones that are saying I canteach you in five minutes how to
make 17 good trillion dollarsand it's only going to cost you
seven dollars.
But I can, you know I can dothat, or it's going to cost you
70,000.
Who knows.
What a lot of people don'trealize is how long of a game
(35:31):
this is, and I take greatcomfort in that, because if I
feel like, oh my gosh, I havefive minutes to figure this out
and if I don't, I'm dead in thewater, that gives me great
anxiety.
I love the idea that it's justkind of it's its own story pun
intended being told.
(35:51):
One of my sons the other dayactually asked me because I got
two more books in the mail.
One was from the new book ofpoems by Miranda Cowley Heller,
who is from Paper Palace, andthe other was Jane Hamilton's
new one.
But they're both arcs and I wasjust so excited I just thought
I can't believe that these arejust showing up on my doorstep.
(36:13):
And my son said how are yougetting these people on the
podcast?
And I said you know what?
I'm a hundred.
And not only am I 128 episodesin, but this is my fourth
podcast and I've been doing thisfor nine years the book, the
book coaching thing, not thepodcast.
The podcast has only been abouta year, but in that time I've
(36:35):
met people who have said oh, letme, you need to have Jordan.
Roeder was on, you know,several weeks ago and she said
you've got to have Melissa De LaCruz.
That's how Melissa and Iconnected.
And so once Jordan who'sfriends with Melissa reaches out
and says, hey, melissa, you'vegot to go on this podcast,
melissa's like okay, but thosethings take time and I don't
(36:59):
look at things as beingtransactional.
I'm never having someone onthis podcast so that I can then
go back to them and say hey, soI had you on my podcast, can you
introduce me to someone?
I've never done that and Ithink there might be people who
would tell me that I've missedan opportunity there.
That just never felt good to me.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, and I and I think the whole thing and I love
that, I love what you're sayingso much because it is the
author community is so embracingand it is so wonderful.
You just have to connect withthe right people.
Wonderful, you just have toconnect with the right people.
Put your heart into honestly.
something else I do because whenI was working in the
(37:42):
entertainment world especially,you have you know so many people
doing trying to get productplacement or this and that, like
I, send out mailers toinfluencers all the time.
Now, influencer is a veryinteresting word.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
It really is, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I don't even really gravitate.
I'm not a big fan of that word.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Me either.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I don't know how else to say it, but let me say I
will send out to people.
It could be a femaleentrepreneur who I've taken one
of her programs, or it could bean author who I respect, or
Kristen Davis.
Recently she's the actress onCharlotte on Sex and City.
And I never worked with her inperson, but I remember when I
was living in LA after HurricaneKatrina, I volunteered with a
(38:28):
rescue organization calledRescue for Refugees and they
brought in, you know, hundredsof dogs and cats who were like
abandoned in New Orleans, andshe was part of it and we all
just took.
I ended up fostering a dog forlike four months.
She was just absolutely solovely, and when my book came
(38:48):
out, I felt that she wouldreally like it, and so, you know
, I sent her a copy with youknow, just a mailer that has
some QR codes and stuff likethat, but a heartfelt letter and
I guess like to land the planeon this one.
I think that it's all aboutbeing authentic, doing what
feels good in your heart, beingon those shows that you actually
(39:11):
like and respect, like I justadore you, I'm like, I love
Elizabeth, I just think you'refantastic on so many levels, but
I think that the more that youconnect with people not try to
make it transactional, butreally like genuinely like.
I want to know you and I want tobe in your world and I want to
support you.
I write reviews for people allthe time.
(39:33):
Yes, you know, I share shelfieslike I'll get a book.
It doesn't even have to be aclient and I'll take a picture
and you know a little selfieposted on Instagram.
I'll do everything to support.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You know, you, you do kind of get like.
This past week I was inPortland and so my oldest
daughter and I went to Powell'sand, by the way, no one like I
would have really appreciated alittle warning, meaning, get a
plan for like five hours, take asuitcase, buy an extra suitcase
(40:04):
, like all the things, okay.
And so we go into Powell's andif anyone's been to anyone who
has been to Powell's who'slistening, knows exactly what I
mean.
It's four floors, you're in amaze, it's just, it's
unbelievable.
And I found I was looking forI'm always looking for my
(40:24):
friend's books in there.
I have a local group of writersthat I've become really close
to and I'm always looking atokay, are there books here?
Are there books here?
And my friend, neely ChobatiAlexander, just launched her
newest one, courtroom Drama.
So I was looking for that, andwhenever I see them, I take
pictures and I post them tosocial media.
And then we went to um, wherewere we?
(40:45):
Cannon beach, and there wasthis darling bookstore, cannon
beach books company.
It was so I can't even.
They had one copy of every bookthat they sold, just one, which
made me think of Ryan Holiday'sstore in, I think, austin, the
Red Porch, I think it's calledBecause he too, I believe they
(41:06):
only stock one copy of each book, so they can have.
It's not a huge store, and so Iwas like, oh my God, this is I
don't even know.
It was great, though, and one ofthe first books I saw was Super
Bloom by Meg Tatey, who I love,and I just was like, oh my God,
like she's here, you know.
(41:26):
And then I discovered anotherbook called Libby Lost and Found
, and when I was growing up, mynickname was Libby until eighth
grade, and you never see thatand so I immediately bought that
.
It's by Stephanie Booth, if I'mnot mistaken.
I'll put it in the show notes.
And then I posted that andStephanie replied, and that's
how I connected with Stephanie.
(41:47):
Like it's not abouttransactions, it's really about
just.
So, even if you're an authorand you're not sure how to
promote your own book, here's anidea Just start promoting other
people's books.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yes, yes, how often?
Because I know people do liketactical.
They're like oh, this soundsgreat and everything, but what
can I do?
So if someone's just gettinggoing on Instagram or the?
So what is your recommendation?
Is it pick one platform?
Is it pick three platforms?
Is it post five times a day?
(42:26):
Is it be?
How do you?
If someone is really unsure andI know we're giving general
advice here and you'd give muchmore specific advice if you were
working with someone one-on-onebut how do you kind of what's
some general guidance you canprovide?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Okay, it's so, so important, such a great question
I am.
I like to be very strategicabout everything.
I mean, don't get me wrong,I'll throw a story up there.
That's just my silly dog.
If there's not an intentionbehind it, it's just fine, you
know.
But but when?
When it comes to efforts, Idon't like to waste my time, I
like to um, I'd rather bewriting, right, you know.
(43:01):
So I'm not a big social mediaperson.
I'm not a big fan of it.
Um, it's not good for, like, mybrain and stuff.
However, I understand theimportance of it.
So I'm a big believer in goingdeep versus wide, and I also
believe that.
Yes, I know, I know we're likeso, we're so aligned, we're so
(43:24):
in sync.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
So aligned, but I am.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I'm like let's go deep versus wide, you can't be
everywhere.
You can't do all the things, andjust because somebody told you
you should be on this platform,if it doesn't speak to you, if
it gives you a headache whenyou're there, go somewhere else.
You know there's plenty ofplaces to go.
So the number the first thingthat I always recommend people
to do for, let's say, an authorplatform, because it's what
everyone talks about, right?
(43:46):
So I have.
I've always recommended clientsto have a newsletter of some
sort.
Now I don't anymore,necessarily because Substack has
become so big, but I still do.
But for people it can I mean upto, I think, depending on who
like MailChimp, I think is up to500 contacts free, but when you
(44:09):
start paying money, Iunderstand my list is very large
.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
So it's it's as an author.
Is your last list very large,or as a?
Or?
Do you have two separate lists?
No, they're all the sameSelfish question.
Okay, I'm in the same boat, soI have.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay, and I only send out a newsletter now monthly,
the first Friday of every month,and then when there's like
special announcements and stuff.
But I used to be weekly, but Idon't do that anymore.
As far as, so, let's talk abouthaving somewhere that they can
put in their email address, likehaving something where you can
reach them in some way, whereit's written content I believe
(44:46):
is important because it's alonger form.
You can also get them to yourInstagram through that email or
the newsletter, like, oh my God,I just posted this.
It was hilarious, did you seeit?
You know?
Yeah, whatever, but also forsocial media, choose one or two
(45:06):
and go deep versus wide.
So for me personally, do I havea LinkedIn?
Of course I do.
Am I on it?
No, I have so many people whoshould be on LinkedIn.
I'm like eh, you know, I also,um, I have um.
Instagram is kind of my go-to,I guess.
Uh and I post usually two tothree times a week.
(45:28):
I try to do one reel times aweek.
I try to do one reel and then Ialso do usually two static
posts and I do stories usuallyabout five times a week.
Okay, this is so refreshing.
I also am very intentional.
Once a week, like I have awhole list of things that I want
to promote.
So, like once a week, like I'llpost in a story a review of the
(45:53):
week for my book, right Like a,either create it in Canva or
take a screenshot of somethingand just be like oh, it's a
review.
Thank you so much to everyonewho's reviewed.
If you read it and you haven't,I would really appreciate it.
Blah, blah, blah.
Or here's my book.
It's on sale this week or youknow.
So it's.
It's kind of like it'sInstagram with intention.
(46:15):
Ooh, look at you creating a buzzphrase, but it's also, but it's
also to connect with peopleLike I really want to provide
them value.
I'm I'm like.
The world is dark on socialmedia, so I like to provide
inspiration and light.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Well, it's never ending too.
You know, and I think we, whenI talked to Jane Friedman a
couple of weeks ago so a fewepisodes back, if anyone wants
to go listen to it we talked alot about Substack, because Jane
has a successful Substack.
Jane also has an enormousaudience.
Yes, and I think a lot ofpeople at this point will feel
like, oh my gosh is Substack.
The new thing Is that where Ineed to be Much like is
(46:50):
Periscope.
I always joke about Periscopebecause I feel like it was
around for about 45 seconds.
For those 45 seconds, everymajor influencer and guru and
everybody was like go, go, go.
Same thing, sort of same thingwith threads, although threads
has held on.
I haven't held on to threads,I've let go of threads, but it
(47:12):
as a platform has stayed fairly.
And now there's blue sky andthere's just so many and I think
it can be so easy to think, oh,the magic is over there and
it's like no, the magic is whereyou take the time to deeply
build community, get youralgorithm work.
I hate the word so much, but Irecently reset mine and finally
(47:36):
I'm seeing books and not clipsfrom white Lotus, which I was.
I mean, listen, the algorithmworks, if nothing else, because
all I was talking about andwatching at that time it was the
when the last season came outof white Lotus was was White
Lotus.
It knows what you're into.
(47:57):
So your Discover page is veryindicative of not only what
Instagram specifically isshowing you, but who Instagram
is showing your stuff to.
The author space is just trickybecause it's and this is a
whole podcast in and of itself.
Maybe we'll do another one onthis like just instagram, how to
(48:19):
?
Maybe you, jen and I can allget on a three-way podcast,
right and and like, becausethat's not, that's you guys all
day.
I'm over here justpredominantly experimenting, but
I've never been a person whodoes great with a schedule, and
I'm following someone right nowwho I really enjoy.
(48:42):
She's not an author, but she isa social media content creator
person and her thing is you'vegot to post at exactly to the
minute, the same time every day,so that Instagram learns that
you are reliable.
And I thought well, I'm notreliable.
Right, you can rely on the factthat I am not reliable.
(49:04):
I don't even know what day itis, emily, and you want me to
remember to post at 9.07?
Speaker 2 (49:15):
want me to remember to post at nine, oh seven, like
I, well, and I'm all aboutinspired action, because I
believe in energy behind everysingle thing.
I know it sounds woo woo butlike it's just, it is what it is
.
But there's also schedulingtools.
You know, like later, whereit'll post it for you.
And see, I don't like to doscheduling tools, I don't mind,
um, and I've done it for clients, I've done it for people like
the back end of the schedulingtool, but instead of posting it,
(49:38):
you want to say send me analert and I'll post it myself,
because, my goodness, you don'twant to post, like the happiest
thing in the world, unbeknownstto you, five minutes.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
That's my greatest fear.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Totally so, 100%.
And also, I tell people you canchange your mind, like Glennon
Doyle was all over Instagram fora long time with her podcast
and everything and then all of asudden she was like I'm not
going to be on social mediaanymore.
It's not good for me.
She created with MailChimp,just a newsletter, just a
(50:11):
general newsletter.
Then she I think becauseElizabeth Gilbert is such a just
a general newsletter.
Then she, I think becauseElizabeth Gilbert is such a like
a fan of Substack.
She's like now I'm coming outwith Substack and you're like
okay.
And then, like the next day orthree days later, it's like you
know what?
I didn't really like Substack.
So now I'm back to thenewsletter.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
And you're like all right, and you know what, that's
okay, as long as, in my world,as long as you're not jumping
just to jump and you're justjumping all.
Sometimes you have to make amove and then in order to say, I
like this or I don't, or Iliked this and now I don't, and
you don't know.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
You don't always know what it's like until you get in
there.
You know that's the thing too.
It's just everything in life,right?
Speaker 1 (50:50):
And I love scheduling .
I use later.
For a long time Now I useTailwind occasionally, only
occasionally.
But then people will come tothe forefront and say, well, if
you use a scheduling tool,instagram deprioritizes it.
So then you're like what do Ido?
And I think what it comes downto is know what your goal is,
(51:14):
know who you are, know whatyou're capable of and know that
it can change.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
And it does, and it changes all the time and you'll
never master the rules of thealgorithms, because when you do,
it'll change Correct, or youknow.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Instagram used to be just a picture, now it's reels
and stories and this and that,so it's sort of like Now it's
four by five and not one to oneand I think that, whether you're
an author or another type ofcreator, or even just a business
owner, an entrepreneur,whatever, you get caught up
because we want to be able tocontrol it.
(51:48):
We don't want to feel like we'rewasting time.
Nobody wants to feel likethey're wasting time.
No one wants to feel likethey're shouting into the void,
which is what so much of thisoften feels like, and I think
the knowledge and thereassurance that that's what
everyone's doing and you're notbehind because you're in that
(52:09):
space.
You're just one of us in thatspace, you're.
You're just one, you're justone of us.
Yeah, Um, there are people whohave hundreds and hundreds of
thousands of followers with noengagement.
There are people who have verysmall numbers of followers with
massive off platform businessesand engagement.
There are people who eschewsocial media altogether and do
(52:30):
just fine, but it's you know,and so, okay, we're going to do
another episode where I'm goingto call Jen.
We're going to do like a threething.
That would be really, I think,with some really tactical,
practical stuff.
I would love that.
Wouldn't that be fun?
Speaker 2 (52:46):
So fun It'd be so helpful because this is the
number one thing.
It doesn't matter who I'mworking with or if I'm doing a
workshop for a publishing houseor whatever.
The number one thing people areso overwhelmed they keep
hearing authors are like I haveto have a platform, I have to do
this, I have to do that.
(53:06):
I want people to buy my books.
Wait, and it's so overwhelmingand anything that we can do to
simplify, take the stress awayand have.
I think it's so important forpeople to celebrate their work,
like have fun with it too.
Like you know, it's there's somuch to be proud of and not to
(53:27):
get caught up in like all thethat.
I have to do this and I have todo it that way.
Throw that out the window, doit your way.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
It's such an accomplishment just to release
the book.
Yes, and what's interesting is,I find that author's launch day
is often the most anticlimacticday, because it's just, I don't
know what we expect, but it justthat happens and we're like
okay, and then what it feelslike is and I'm just kind of
realizing this right now, andwe're like okay, and then what
it feels like is and I'm justkind of realizing this right now
it feels like you've reachedthe top of the mountain, because
(53:56):
you published the book thatyou've been working on or
thinking about or dreaming aboutfor so long, and then in an
instant, you're at the bottom ofthe new mountain which is now
how do I get this to be seen?
So sometimes I tell people thatthe writing of it, if you're
looking at it as a long journey,if you look at it as one huge
(54:21):
mountain, the writing of it isthe first third, the editing of
it is the second third and thepromo of it.
In fact, you could even divideit into quarters, where it's
like the writing is the firstquarter, the editing is the
second quarter, the launchingand the promo is the hat is the
final half.
It's like summits, right,absolutely, absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Instead, because I think it's very I like that.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
Well, I think it feels not good for people when
they launch and then they'relike, oh God, like, are we there
yet?
And so if your perspective isswitched right from the jump of,
first of all, there is nosummit, really, unless you have
a self-defined one.
If your self-defined summit isI launched the book, then you're
(55:04):
not even listening to thisepisode because you don't care
about any of this, right?
If your self-defined summit isI want to be on the New York
Times list, then that's yourNorth star.
That's what you're shooting for, and for each book it can be
different as well.
So, okay, we're going to doanother one.
I always ask people what areyou reading now?
Speaker 2 (55:22):
Oh, my gosh, it's such a great question and it's
so funny.
Okay, so I?
I am one of those people thathas a couple of books that I
reread one or two times a year.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
What are they here?
That's a lot, you know, okay,but what are they Cause if?
If it's one of the ones that Iread, I don't know what I'm
gonna do.
Oh my gosh, okay Well one ofthem.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
It's one of my favorite books in the whole
entire world.
It's the alchemist by PaoloCoelho.
No really, we're like twinning.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
It's so good, right?
Every time I read it, I getsomething different Every time
and it's such a good thing.
Would you believe, Emily, thatI interviewed someone and I
would call her out by name?
But I'm not going to try to gethate thrown her way because
she's lovely, she was lovely andshe hated the Alchemist Really,
yes, but I'm okay with it.
(56:10):
I told her that I said listen,this is, I mean, I accept you.
I'm judging you a little bit,but I like, for every incredible
book that someone's like thisis the best thing I've ever,
ever, ever read, there will besomeone who's like this sucks, I
hated this.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
Oh no, and that's so true, it's 100%.
But I mean Palakwa paula, likewhen you think about the
alchemist.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
It was, wasn't it like years until people even
knew about it the story is and Idon't know if it's true,
because I got to get paulo onthe.
Oh my god, mr coelho.
Um, as the story goes, he soldone copy to someone in the first
year.
That person lost their copy andbought another copy, so he sold
two copies, but it was to thesame person, and then it went
(56:54):
out of print and he knocked onevery door, like not every house
door, but the door of everypublishing house in whatever
country he was in, and they allsaid no.
And then look at it now.
And then look at it now.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
And also talking about a long tail books.
I believe it was last year, itcould have been, let's just say,
in the last 18 months.
Will Smith was coming out witha big movie or something.
He was being interviewed orsomebody said what was your
favorite book growing up?
Or whatever.
He said oh the alchemist.
And he talks about Santiago andthe journey.
And the next thing you know,number one, you know again,
(57:29):
right Again.
And then it's got like a hundred, because I follow him on
Instagram and he usually postslike just a couple of he doesn't
do anything fancy and itdoesn't but anyways and he did
like a thank you to Will Smithlike on his Instagram he usually
just posts his morning walk butI was like this is the magic of
books.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
You know the point.
I want to get to Emily, where Ijust post my morning walk and
people care or don't.
Speaker 2 (57:53):
I don't care, and that's it.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
That's it, okay.
What's the second book you readevery year?
Speaker 2 (57:59):
Um, I also read, not necessarily every year, but a
lot.
I revisit the four agreements,a lot by Don McGill.
I just think it's really good,um, especially kind of when I
feel like the world gets alittle chaotic or something like
.
I just feel like it grounds meand it's just it's packed with
really important principles.
I think, and you know, I kindof I tend to rotate between a
(58:24):
novel and some sort of personalgrowth, like something that'll
kind of like or a bio orsomething you know, just
something.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
Something you could, and I learn a lot from fiction
as much as I learned fromnon-fiction.
It's so interesting, but I do.
And okay, well, I adore you andwe are going to do another one
with Jen DePaula.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
I would love that.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
She doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to tell her
in about five minutes and thankyou so much.
I will put all of your links inthe notes and we're going to do
this again.
Thank you, elizabeth, I can'twait.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
(59:07):
someone you know has a greatstory or message, but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
Thank you.
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