July 2, 2025 • 55 mins
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Miranda Cowley Heller's father was a book editor; her grandfather edited Jack Kerouac and was friends with Hemingway. That legacy, while inspiring, left her frozen when it came to pursuing her own writing.
Instead, she built a thriving career in publishing and TV, eventually heading up drama series at HBO. Then, in her 50s, she wrote the novel she’d been carrying around for years, The Paper Palace, which became a New York Times #1 bestseller and a Reese’s Book Club pick.
Now, she's returned to her first creative love—poetry—with a stunning new collection: The Deep Water Knows. “Poetry is almost like putting snapshots of your soul into the world,” she tells me.
In this episode, Miranda gets real about the myth of getting wiser with age, the vulnerability of releasing creative work into the world, and why your voice is never too late to matter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Okay, everybody, welcome back.
I am so delighted today to bejoined by the magnificent
Miranda Cowley Heller.
I have been waiting to do thisinterview, miranda, on like pins
and needles.
You just said that you aresweltering, but you're in the UK
and I am sweltering and I'm inPhoenix, so I want to know which
one of us has it worse.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I think possibly you, but I don't know which one of
us has it worse.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I think possibly you, but I don't know Phoenix very
well, to be honest, tell me whatthe temperature is and you're
going to need to convert it toFahrenheit because I don't know.
Good news.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I have no idea.
Bad news somebody is knockingat my front door, so I'm going
to ignore them.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
You can go get it.
I can pause it.
Pause for one second.
Yeah, tell them to go away.
Yeah, go tell them to go away.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Tell everyone to go away, I'll be right back, so
sorry, nope.
That was not.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It never is, miranda, it never is All right.
I might leave that in becauseyou know, no, like the whole
basis for this podcast is whatreally goes on.
It's usually what really goeson in the book writing world,
but I feel like it's alsobecoming what really goes on
just in life.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Okay, well, that was a pair of Adidas being delivered
and then the guy knocking atthe door and then walking away
with them.
So that's what goes on in mylife, by the way.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Very, very exciting.
I didn't need those anywaybecause I'm not going outside
because it's sweltering.
Do you have humidity over there?
Yeah, it's England, so it rainsall the time.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Okay, fair, I've not been to England.
It's very humid.
I honestly don't know thetemperature because I don't
understand the differencebetween Fahrenheit and Celsius,
and so they put it out there andI just go.
It's really hot.
He's knocking again.
It's unbelievable.
The guy does not get it.
I can't.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I'm not going to get my sneakers.
Do you want to go get?
Can you just scream?
Leave it at the door.
Like will he?
I?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
asked him to leave it at the door.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Well, feel free to go back and deal with that because
, okay, this is so awful, butthis is what goes on in
Miranda's life, guys.
Like it's not all roses.
I really was going to pausethis, but I think this is real.
This is the real deal she's gotto get her Adidas.
I always thought it was Adidasand now I feel like it's Adidas.
I'm going to ask her about that.
We're going to get to the books, don't worry.
(02:31):
Here she comes, here she comeswith.
Do you have the shoes?
Oh my god.
Just to prove this is so fun.
Now do you say adidas or adidas?
I say adidas and here they sayadidas.
So for so long people are, ifyou're listening and you're like
isn, are we going to talk aboutbooks?
We are.
For so long.
I said Adidas as a joke.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
That's British.
You're very British.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Oh my God, I also say garage.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Garage is also.
You're obviously British,Obviously.
What are you doing in?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Phoenix, I don't believe me right now.
I don't freaking, know.
I ask myself that on the daily,what am?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I doing here?
What is the temperature?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
there.
Well, today it's supposed to be115.
Oh gosh, right.
Okay, Not like that here, buthere is super humid.
So that's what I was going tosay and if I had to, pick one,
I'd honestly pick this Desert.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, and also, they don't really have air
conditioning in England.
Oh, no.
Oh, no, no, I don't have ACright now.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
So no On my daily gratitude.
Like my mental gratitude listright now is air conditioning.
My air conditioning went out inmy car last week and I was like
why does the universe like?
I know the universe doesn'thate me, but in this moment I
feel like it might be angry withme, like, really, it might be,
(03:43):
it might be All right.
So here, okay, your first book.
Can we talk about the PaperPalace for a moment?
Of course we're going to talkabout the Paper Palace.
We're going to talk about thisdelightful gem.
This gem, by the way, so forpeople who are listening and not
watching, miranda's justreleased, or is about to release
(04:03):
, has this come out yet In theUK last month and not watching
Miranda's just released or isabout to release.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Has this come out yet In the UK last month, but
tomorrow is my pup date.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
It is.
This is so delightfully timed.
Okay, excellent timing.
It's your first book of poetryand I want to talk to you about
poetry after I ask you aboutsomething, about the Paper
Palace, because this is a.
What's the word I'm looking for?
I, you know we don't have wordshere.
It's.
It's a misleadingly small.
The word I want is notmisleadingly, but I can't think
(04:33):
of it right now.
It's.
It looks small, it's like it'sa small little book, but it is.
It is rich in all the thingslike okay, we're going to talk
about that in a minute.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So, before I lose my train of thought, the only thing
I would just add quickly isthat one reviewer critic called
it a novel written in verse andI thought, well, novella, but in
terms of, just like the size ofthe story, in a way that you
can combine poetry and fictionin a certain way.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Also to play off of that critic, although I heard
critic and I got nervous.
I was ready to go fightsomebody, but then we have this
one.
Which is the difference betweenthem.
I want I'm going to ask youabout this but the what would we
call this?
The pentameter?
I don't know poetic terms atall, but this is written almost
(05:23):
like an essay, not like a poem,which I loved and want to ask
you about.
Okay, so let's go back to PaperPalace.
So you are one of theseunicorns who the exception, not
the norm, but the exception.
We all want to be where yourdebut is.
Just because Paper Palace wasthe debut, right, okay, the way
(05:46):
you're looking at me right now,all of a sudden I thought, oh my
God, is she like?
No, no, no, no, no.
Okay, the debut does so well,it's a New York Times bestseller
, it's a Reese's book pick, it'sall the things.
So I have a couple of questions.
Number one how long did it takefor you to get like?
Was that the first book thatyou wrote?
Pitched, all the things?
(06:07):
Yes, okay, so you really are aunicorn, okay, how long did it
take?
How long was that process ofwriting the book and all that?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Well, writing the book was a kind of on-again,
off-again process, because youknow, oh, am I going to try to
write a novel?
Okay, I'll try, and then maybeI'll fail, but nobody has to
know.
And you know, I remember when Igot to like but I didn't even
know, like we talked about wordcount in those days, I was like
you know, oh, I just wrote page100.
(06:37):
Maybe it will turn into a novel, like it was.
You know, I was just, and thenI would go for sort of swathes
of time and not write at allbecause I was busy doing other
things for work or whatever, andwriting poetry.
Actually, because poetryprecedes the novel.
It just happens to be publishedafter the novel.
Okay, and in fact some of itended up in the novel almost
(07:00):
verbatim, almost verbatim, butin any event.
So, yeah, so the process ofgetting from point A to a first
draft was probably like four,four, four years or something,
maybe five.
I mean, you know, because Ireally wasn't doing it all the
time.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
You know what's funny about that is, you said only
four or five years, as oh Ithink I said almost, but I.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Or maybe I said oh, I think I said almost, but I.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Or maybe I said I don't actually know, okay, okay,
well, I mean, let's clarify.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Cause?
I certainly don't want to putwords in anybody's mouth, but I
just fast, I'm not slow, I'm avery fast writer, but I am very,
let's say, like very ADD.
So I went up.
So I either I'm doing it or I'mgoing to a flea market and
looking for old pottery orsomething, somehow or other I'm
you know they have that.
I remember there's a term likeyou know, ass in chair writers,
(07:51):
and that's what you know everymorning or da, da, da, da.
I am quite literally theopposite, thank you.
So there's that, and we cantalk about all that later if you
(08:16):
want to.
So that happened.
And then I was in a wonderfulwriting group and I had a mentor
in that who ran that, and sothen I'd gotten an agent who I
love passionately.
Was that?
You know, we put it out thereinto the world on a Friday, and
I thought she said, well, itcould take a few.
I said, well, I'm supposed togo to London next Friday and
(08:37):
this and that.
And she said, well, just staynimble.
She said I don't know what'sgoing to happen, and she'd sent
it submitted on Friday.
On Monday she already had like10 meetings for me set for
Thursday and Friday, and then Iflew to New York on the
Wednesday.
I'd never met her, you know,had meeting, all these amazing
meetings, which was incrediblyfun.
And then got on a plane on theFriday to London because a
(08:59):
friend of mine was very ill andthat's why I had to go.
And then on the on the auctionwas Tuesday and that was like it
was the craziest thing and itwas just beyond.
I mean, that part was soexciting.
I was actually in a pub withfriends in London and I'd have
kept.
You know, go out to the outside, I don't have good, I'm sorry,
(09:21):
my terrible.
You know it was so exciting.
And then so that happened and,um, I went with riverhead,
obviously, and sarah, and thenthen british auction was the was
the day I was flying back.
The week later was flying backwas the.
So that week in london I metall the british people.
So it was just incredibly,incredibly exciting.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Of course, duh, so yeah, Okay, so I have two
questions related to that.
I feel like we're going downthis Are you of the?
When you were in younger, likeelementary school, did you have
to do the diagramming of thesentences where it was like the
noun, and then you have the?
I don't even remember, but theverb came down on a diagonal
(10:02):
line and then the subject.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Okay, I'm clearly much older than you are.
No, I think I'm too old forthat.
I'm much older.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I think it's like when I people have a visceral
reaction I mean I'd place money,I'll take that bet when people
have a visceral reaction to thatmemory of the diagramming.
So if anyone's ever done it,they know what I'm talking about
.
If they are confused, they'venever had to do it, so I'm not
going to use that as an example.
(10:29):
But the point is I'm seeingmyself going down multiple
different paths here.
The first one is you always, orhad you always, wanted to be a
writer?
Had you been writing poetry orsomething for so long?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Well, I mean as a very tiny child.
First of all, I come from afamily of writers and editors,
and so the whole concept ofliterature was always very, very
present.
My father was a book editor andhe's also a writer.
My grandfather was a poet, awriter, a book editor.
He was Kerouac's editor, he was, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Oh my gosh Really.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, so he was a sort of a literary you know
giant among the, among theeditorial world or the world of
people chronicling writers.
He was best friends withHemingway, blah, blah, blah.
So that whole world was verymuch a background noise all the
time.
And I spent an enormous amountof time with my grandparents in
(11:22):
Connecticut because my parentshad gotten divorced very young
and lots of new marriages andthe original kids get happily
left with the grandparents.
So I was very, very influencedby that.
Having said that, I recentlyfound last Christmas, actually
on Cape Cobb, I found apparentlymy first published piece of
(11:43):
writing which was written out bymy stepfather, who's a painter,
but in one of his sketch pads Ifound in pencil he'd written a
poem out with my name at thebottom and the date from when I
was five years old.
So that was like the firstright.
And then I also found this, notat that point but at a
different point, I guess I wouldcall it my first book I
(12:06):
published, which was a book ofnature poems that I wrote when I
was eight for my grandfather'sbirthday present, on like little
construction paper, theselittle pieces of paper.
And I saw, you know, I put mylike Miranda Cowley, you know
with the author.
I mean I really took myself fartoo seriously.
One of my favorite things isthat the five-year-old poem at
(12:29):
five, then the title was thePath is Long and the main poem
in my first book was called Life.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Talk about foreshadowing.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Well, by the way, the Path is long.
So I wasn't completely wrong.
If you're lucky, the path islong.
But yeah, I was like this ishilarious.
When I saw that I just couldn'tbelieve it.
So the answer is yes.
I always thought literature,literary world, always, you know
, big, huge reader, wanted to bea writer, you know, went off
(13:05):
and ended up being in theeditorial side of things instead
, you know, and I was too scaredactually, Really, I got really
really overwhelmed with thecritiquing of my family.
I remember my father I was, youknow, he was it was my first
like big, actual school paper orwhatever, and I'd done it on
(13:25):
Dutch painters and I had soproud of it I was probably 11.
And I brought it out to youknow, wherever he and his wife
were living, and the firstsentence was the Dutch painters
were the greatest painters whoever lived.
And he literally just looked upand went.
I'm sorry you can't say that,you have to say they were among
the greatest painters who everlived.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So that was what I was dealing with.
My mom is an editor.
She was not a book editor, butshe is.
I mean, she's still with us,thank God she is a well, she's
an editor, and what she edited,though, was like corporate, very
corporate stuff.
So, from the time that I couldspeak and I could say, me and
(14:10):
Katie my sister, you know wantto be the president of the
United States, she'd say Katieand I Katie and I right, and so
I'm so grateful for it now.
At the time it did give me thatsometimes I was almost afraid
to speak, and did you have, I'mcurious, if your family's
immersion in the literary worlddid that?
(14:33):
Did it feel almost like toomuch pressure, and or did it
make you feel like, well, thisisn't hard?
I have all these people whohave done it, and they have
connections and fill in theblank.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
No, it was absolutely too much pressure.
My grandfather said constantlyyou have to get your name in
print, you have to get your namein print.
When I was in high school, whenI was in college, you know, and
you have to try out for thepaper and you have to do this
and you have to do that.
And as a result, I was like adeer in the headlights.
I couldn't do anything becauseI was so afraid of failing.
I mean, that's the reason Ididn't publish a novel until I
(15:06):
was in my fifties is because Iwas so in my own head All I
could do was like get likeabsolute panic oh gosh, it won't
be good enough, I'll get creditRight.
So that is, I had to reallylearn to get out of my own way,
and that clearly took a while.
(15:26):
I had a lot of divergent pathsalong the way, but I did start
out my quote unquote careerafter college as a well, first
as an assistant and then as abook editor magazine editor, but
book editor.
So I went straight into thatworld.
Then I fell madly in love acouple of years after I'd been
made editor and moved to Italyfor love.
(15:47):
But I was living with thispainter and my idea was 100%
this will work, because I'mgoing to write the great
American novel and it just wascrap.
I just couldn't do anything.
I was just so self-conscious.
The writing was not coming atall from an organic place and
poetry is actually what got meback.
(16:08):
Going back to poetry is whatgot me back to the organic place
and freedom and like loving theblank page, because with a poem
, you have nothing in your headwhen you start.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
All right, Before I get to the poetry, because I
don't want to forget to ask youthis question when the Paper
Palace, just in this sort ofwhirlwind way, it sold quickly,
it hit New York Times quicklythen the Reese's book, Did that
give you a sense of well, Idon't want to even lead you.
What was your reaction to that?
(16:43):
What was it?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I mean unbelievable thrill.
I will say this and I think thiscomes from having been an
editor for many, many years aswell, and I did some
ghostwriting and so on.
I'm very lucky that I have theability to write something and
then go back to it as if I'm notme and read it as an editor, as
(17:13):
if I'm somebody else, and seethe weaknesses and see the flaws
.
And I think part of why it tookme so long to write the book I
write fast, but it was because Iwould go back and go, oh, that
needs to be filled out or thisneeds to happen here and that
hasn't happened and because Icould see it right.
I could hear it throughsomebody else's ears in a way,
(17:34):
and I think that's justsomething.
I'm very, very lucky to havebeen raised, you know, with that
sort of editing gene.
Yes, yes.
So I will say this that when Iput it out into the world, like
even just to get an agent and Ididn't use any connections is
(17:54):
that I knew that it was good.
What I didn't know was ifanyone would get it, because it
was to me so sort of odd andspecific and it's a literary
novel but it has a pulse and youknow I just thought you know
and obviously has an oddstructure and I thought you know
it is possible that this willnot sell at all and I will be
crestfallen, but I know that I'mputting something good into the
(18:17):
world and that's like.
That maybe sounds egotisticalor something.
I mean, it took me a very longtime to get to that place, but I
did know that.
Having said that, the rest wasjust unbelievable, of course,
and the most amazing was thatthe week that it was published,
they had said at Riverhead likeit seems like there's a
(18:39):
possibility that you might makethe New York Times bestseller
list, like there's a possibility, we don't know, don't get your
hopes up, and so on.
And I was on Cape Cod actually,and I was on the phone with my
shrink and call waiting, and Isaw it was my editor, and so I
answered the phone and, sarah, Iwas like all nervous and she
said so, you just debuted atnumber one on the New York Times
(19:00):
bestseller list.
And I became hysterical intears.
I'm talking to my shrink.
I went back.
Well, I have to go.
I got to call and I called myfather.
He started weeping, he yelleddown to my sisters.
Then I call my mother and shegoes I'm having a martini with
Flossie, it's just on the pond.
And I told her and she wentwell, why are you crying?
(19:22):
That's good news.
And I went, uh, and she went,anyway, my teeny's going to get.
You know, I can't let it getwarm, bye-bye, you know so,
right, but it was cool.
I like the fact.
I mean, it was just such a goodclassic.
You know the two.
So that was one of the like,unbelievable moments.
(19:42):
That was one of the like,unbelievable moments.
The funniest thing is that themy first sale.
Actually it was, uh, in Croatia, I believe, before it sold in
America.
I'm pretty sure it was Croatia.
It might have been Serbia.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Anyway, that was my first Like sale to a reader.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
No sale to a publisher.
Yeah, okay, Like before theauction, they'd gotten an offer
from.
Anyway, they'd gotten an offer.
I'm probably getting thisembarrassingly wrong, but anyway
, cut it out if I'm getting itwrong, but anyway, that was
really hilarious to me.
Now it's been life-changing, Tobe honest.
(20:23):
It's been life-changing in many, many ways.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Tell me what those are, if you would, because one
of the things I really do loveto do and it's not because I'm a
negative person, I mean I havea sign.
I show it with frequency.
Right up there it sayseverything is possible.
I firmly believe that I'm ahuge optimist and I'm also a
realist, and one of the thingsthat I love to do is to just
clarify people's expectations,because I think sometimes people
(20:48):
think, oh my gosh, if I hitnumber one on the New York or if
I get on the list or whatevermy life is made Like, I am in
the machine, every book I writefrom this point forward will be
accepted.
I'm financially secure forever.
No one can touch me.
And again, it's not to negatethe beautiful moments and the
(21:09):
beautiful things that happen asa result of that kind of and see
the air quote, but success,because everybody has to define
that for themselves.
What for you was maybe itdidn't.
It did work and didn't work theway that you thought it might.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
That's a really interesting question because I
think part of it does have to dowith age.
And, by the way, you can tellanybody you know it doesn't make
you financially secure forever.
Just sell a book, just FYI.
Not that that's an issue here.
But the expectations are sohigh, of course, for me, because
I'd spent so much of my life onthe other side.
(21:45):
I'd spent my career even when Iwas in television, when I was
in producing, when I was alwaysbeing the editor, the critic,
the person who's correcting, notthe artist, as it were, and for
me I had defined myself youngas a writer and then I just
wasn't.
(22:05):
And I spent so many yearsthinking, you know, and sort of
making little attempts at notwriting a novel, and when I
finally decided to do it, it waslike a last gasp.
I'd gone back to get a graduatedegree in art history, all
sorts of things that happenedthat are now, in retrospect,
incredibly lucky With myhusband's work.
(22:26):
He was going to be transferredto New York and I had been
accepted to a PhD thing inCalifornia and then the New York
thing got shifted back and I'dblah, blah, blah and one of my
best friends said you've beentalking about this writing and
that you feel like a failure.
As long as I have known you,you've just said I had this one
year and I don't know what to donow, because I said yes and no
(22:49):
to two different things.
She said why don't you make thedecision?
You're going to try to write it, you're going to give yourself
this year and if you don't do itor don't start something,
that's it.
I went okay and that's kind ofhow I started right.
(23:22):
But I think more specifically toyour question.
I always have been the personbehind the person.
I always have been the personbehind the person and that is a
great role in many ways.
To have a dream and write to meout of the blue from all these
different countries and talkabout something that's become so
meaningful to them.
That makes me feel whole, likethere's this whole community of
(23:49):
people out there who share afeeling with me and it's a
really wild feeling that for meis by far like the best part,
but also obviously like thenhaving the confidence, and it
made me much more independent asa person because also I was
going through my marriage, wasbreaking up, sort of during it
and after, really, although I'mstill married, as it happens, I
(24:14):
mean technically, but anyway,you know.
But so then, having to, like, goout into the world and reinvent
myself, yeah, yeah, uh, youknow the book had started while
I was married for a long time,you know.
But and the two things don'thave anything to do with each
other, much that people love toalways think, you know, fiction
is memoir, but the thing ofbeing suddenly alone for the
(24:37):
first time and empty nested atthe same time for the first time
, and having this book, was likeit's like having a third child,
but it was also like I couldstand on my feet and go.
I did it, and that is a ifanybody, you know, that's the
main thing I would say to putout there is that if you do the
(25:00):
thing you always wanted to do,no matter how old you are,
there's nothing like that.
It's better than having like forme.
For me, that experience had Iwritten 20, like medianly, this
was what I wanted was to write aliterary novel.
That experience had I written20, like medianly, this was what
I wanted was to write aliterary novel that would speak
to people.
(25:20):
That's what I wanted, that'swhat I dreamt of.
So it has really changed mylife.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Definitely I mean working on the Sopranos.
For God's sake, how did it feelto suddenly and very quickly
almost jarringly so perhaps bethe not the target, but the?
You know, all the reviews startcoming and with good reviews
come.
You know, of course, people whodon't like the book or who are
(25:51):
just having a bad day andthey're taking that out or
they're envious of who knows whythey do what they do.
But how did you navigate thatwithout having a lot of years to
slowly acclimate to what itwould be like to be not behind
the person or, but not behindthe camera, but in front of the
camera?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I mean I think that it said what I was saying
earlier is almost the sameanswer, which is two things.
One is I was, I knew that itwas good, like I knew the
writing was good.
And when you, when you can feelconfident in something, and
also, having been an editor inso many different iterations,
(26:34):
one of the things I learnedreally early on when I was
working for I worked as a bookdoctor for all these different
literary agents at a certainpoint in my life and whatever is
there's really I hate to say it, but there's no such thing as
the great unpublished novelunless you haven't actually
submitted it anywhere.
When you're a reader lookingthrough that pile, anybody,
you're desperate for somethingreally good, and so you know all
(26:56):
you want is to open somethingand go, oh yeah, oh my God, this
could be something.
That's you know what you want.
And, of course, a lot of peopledon't have the courage actually
to put their work out there, andthat's really sad.
What I'm, I guess what I'mtrying to say is what I had was
this sort of I can be veryinsecure, so it's not that, it's
(27:17):
just that I didn't have aparticular kind of doubt that
I'd always had.
It was like, if you know, likeyou've given, I was a musician,
like I knew when I'd flubbedsomething and I knew when I'd
done the in the orchestra, donemy part.
What did you play?
Flute Me too.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Really, I mean not in the orchestra, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
No well, I mean high school, please you know school,
I was in the marching band wayback when.
So when you know, I think it'slike that, that when you know
it's not like an ego thing going, oh I'm so good.
That's not what I'm saying atall.
What I'm saying is that whenyou are doing anything like that
, particularly with music, yougo, oh, that tone, that was, I
did it and you also know whenyou didn't.
(28:04):
So on that level I was like, ifpeople don't like it, they
don't like it.
Not everybody's going to likeanything.
That part I have been, I'm oldenough and have been around
enough.
Do you like it when somebodyhates your work?
Of course not.
It's hoppable, right, and theyou know the personal attacks,
(28:25):
of which there are a lot.
That's really a different issue.
And I and I really do take issuewith people assuming something
about you or saying, oh, you,you know, I had people on the
craziest responses, peoplecalling me names, calling it
sickening, pornography, whatever, but like.
(28:46):
But then not even just sayingthat, but then saying, like you
know I was a whatever, like itwas just horrible, yeah, that I
really think is upsetting.
So then I just stopped readinganything, did you?
Yeah, I just stopped.
I mean, you can't.
After a certain point you'relike you know what doesn't help
to read any of that stuff andeverybody always says don't you
(29:06):
read when you're first time, any, I mean please.
I was like, of course, ofcourse I mean please.
But then after a while I'm likethere's nothing to be done here
and people, people are going to, there's going to be haters and
I think you feel about anythingis people are going to like
something or hate it, but whenthey attack you personally that
hurts for most people the line.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
it's almost like it starts to infuse into your cells
in a way that you kind of can't, you try to block it, but it's
like there's no logical way toblock that, because our initial
reaction is to try to defendourselves and say like wait, I'm
not that.
And then we worry why wouldthey think I am that?
And so it can start to, really,if we're not careful and we
don't have good people around ustherapists and friends and et
(30:00):
cetera, right, god bless thetherapist to bounce things off
of and kind of assess well, whyam I feeling this way?
Could there be a piece of truth?
Certainly not to the reallyhorrible stuff, but yeah, that's
.
And I find that an interestingand almost not enjoyable in a
masochistic way, but Ianticipate or maybe I don't know
(30:23):
, I anticipate it and so I'mkind of fascinated by it when it
happens Certainly not whenpeople are just piling on, it's
just being shoveled, but I thinkit's when people don't
anticipate that and they're likewhy is this happening?
What is this going to do to mycareer?
She's like just let it be forfive minutes.
There'll be another drama oranother pile on.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
unfortunately, that will happen, but it is.
I mean, it's sort of like thosepeople who decide to go
personal.
In that sense it's almost likereally mean girls in high school
or grade school, you know, whoare turning people, trying to
turn people against you and likemark you as the loser, whatever
.
It's kind of that same feelingand, like you're saying, it can
(31:06):
be very destructive even thoughyou're a grown-up and you go
this, whatever it's likesomebody out there is trying to
hurt me, or doesn't you know,and or you know and it gets in
under your skin.
Yeah Well, you just stop, likestop thinking about it and, like
you said, people around you.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
And I think for people and I'm just thinking
this right now, but for peoplewho did experience that kind of
mean girl, I'm outside the coolclique, the popular clique.
If you did experience that inhigh school, elementary school,
middle school, it startsbringing it all back.
Because I've often said, aswomen specifically, I feel like
we never really leave highschool, those cliques and the
(31:47):
jabbing.
We try to stay away from it.
As adults we can recognize itmore and say that's not for me,
but it's still out there.
It's still out there.
You want to go find a MeanGirls clique?
It's easier to find thanthey're everywhere still they're
everywhere.
They're still everywhere, I know.
Okay, so this gem, let us talkabout what the deep water knows.
(32:10):
My question really is thisbecause there's just deceptively
that's the word I was lookingfor, miranda.
It's deceptively small, becauseyou start reading it and all of
a sudden I found myself beingtaken back to like it was
reminding me of things that Ididn't remember, that I
remembered about my own life,whether it was marriage, growing
(32:35):
up, being a parent, any ofthose sorts of things.
Poetry is such and I'm going touse this word, it's not meant
to be negative, but it's such aweird thing to me, because it's
really like there really are norules.
It feels like.
But are there rules?
I won't edit poetry for themost, unless we're talking about
(32:55):
well, there are certaininstances, but the majority no
because I just don't feel like Ifully understand the rules
around it.
How?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
do you?
I know, yeah, it's a verythat's a good question.
I think it's more like if youwere going to like paint on
somebody else's painting.
You can't really do that, canyou?
Yes, so it's a much more.
It comes from a much moreunconscious or subconscious
place.
You write from a kind ofdreaming brain, if that makes
(33:25):
sense.
You know it comes.
You know you just open up andyou don't know what you're going
to write Rules.
I don't you know, unless you'redoing like iambic, pentameter or
whatever you know there arerules if you're doing, if you're
writing a sonnet, there arerules in terms of if you are
writing form or meter, or youknow poetry.
In that sense, of course, Ithink you're saying something
(33:46):
that I say a lot, which is thatpoetry, which used to be like
the main and most accessible,you know, when it was Keats,
shelley or whoever form ofwriting for everybody and sort
of emotional writing it becamesomething that people think is
somehow either over their heads,out of their grasp you know
it's an insular, it's also.
(34:07):
Poets are almost like academics.
There's a lot of them, not allobviously, but there's a very
like of course you're not goingto get it kind of a thing.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Do you think it's an elitist kind of sometimes space?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I mean, it's not an elitist space or medium, but I
think that there is.
That is a piece of, you know,this little world where to get
recognized in any way as a poetis incredibly difficult to be
heard above anything, forstarters.
So poets kind of hate everyother poet.
So there's that, you know,there's enormous amounts of
(34:41):
jealousy and envy, which is youknow which I get, by the way,
and uh, and also it's completelya personal.
You know, all poetry ispersonal, right, there's no,
that does not mean it's aboutyou or that it's memoir.
What I mean is you don't writea poem about a gentleman I don't
even know what, a gentleman inMoscow, a spy in wherever, china
(35:03):
.
You're not going to write.
That's not a poem that you'regoing to write, right, right,
it's about transmuting feelingor experience or something into
words, and the words in thatsense are much more like musical
notes.
Actually, it's about, often,it's just about creating feeling
, right, yes, but it's.
(35:24):
I think if there's anything forme, it's that you write into,
you write with nothing in yourhead and out of it emerges
something, and then you can goand go.
Oh, I want to dig into that,but it comes very much from one
sort of dreaming brain, and soit's really a funny, amazingly
(35:46):
freeing medium.
In a way, it's also terrifyingto put it out there.
I mean, I would say it's likeputting out poems is like, to a
certain extent, it's likeputting out sort of snapshots of
your soul, and you know it'sreally much more difficult than
putting out a novel, honestly.
But I do feel very stronglythat poetry is, and should be,
(36:09):
one of the most importantmediums for people.
And I mean I'm going to justtalk about women, but obviously
men and women, right, but youread somebody that really speaks
to you and it is a punch in thegut.
It's so incredibly important.
And there's amazing poets, likea Mary Oliver who is so popular
(36:33):
that people start to go, oh,but she's so popular, she's an
amazing poet, right, and I'llread something of hers and just
go, god, like, and you just wantto carry it with you.
You know you want to carry thatthing, that image, that like
you know.
So I feel like one of the thingsI really wanted was to not to
(36:55):
write poetry that's accessiblein any way that's not what
you're thinking but to likewrite something that somebody
else can feel, you know, becauseyou can share it.
You know it's very similar.
I mean, I think fiction andpoetry are, for me, incredibly
similar.
But that notion of you justwrite from this place and then
if somebody else is like movedor touched by it, that's what
(37:16):
you want.
And, by the way, it's likecomparing you know you're a
musician.
It's like saying you knowStrindberg is better than Brahms
.
Well, just because you know youcan feel Brahms, you know,
doesn't mean Brahms is acommercial writer, right.
It's not about level of quality, right.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
But there's no reason that something should feel like
it's so dependent upon whatmoves you as the writer when
it's coming out and what movessomeone who would read it.
One book of poetry that I didwork on as an editor recently is
Lindsay Shigemoto wrote a bookcalled Revenge of Love Letters
of Hope, and she doesn't evenreally like to and I don't mean
(38:22):
to put words in her mouth, butshe doesn't like to call it
poetry.
She calls them letters, andI'll have to ask her if that's
because she feels uncomfortablecalling herself a poet.
I'm not.
I'll have to ask her that.
I don't know.
But what's interesting is inworking on it from an editing
standpoint, I wasn't looking atit like, okay, this doesn't work
(38:47):
from a narrative arc.
It was more like there was aconsistency issue or something
felt.
It felt like she could godeeper on something, like I
could feel it's all on feel.
I could feel her hovering on anarea and then it was up to her
to decide do I want to go deeperwith that or not, which is sort
of true with fiction or memoiras well, but it's just.
(39:09):
It's such a more digestible.
I can get more in a two-linepiece of poetry than I might get
from an entire hundred thousandword book.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, by the way, that's sort of what I was saying
earlier.
That's why that's one of themost important things, ps, you
know, particularly as ourchildren are growing up with
shorter and shorter attentionspans, you know, by the way, and
me and me.
But that's for me it's.
But you know, truly it's a formthat I think is well, I think
(39:43):
it's really important.
Obviously, I don't know how Imean.
I know how I feel if somethingis working or isn't, or it
speaks to me or doesn't.
You know and a lot of that isif you want to go back and
reread it a lot you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
If it stands the test of time, right, yes, and so
there's that.
But then you come acrosssomething and you just it takes
like a long, it's something,let's say, so simple.
And then it's like there's amoment where it hits you,
because that is one of the funthings about poetry is it's
almost, it's mysterious, becausethey'll when you unpack it.
(40:21):
That's why they kind of makeyou learn how to unpack it in
school.
Right, each metaphor, eachpiece.
It's not purposeful, but itsomehow comes out.
Does that make sense?
It's like people go what wasthe theme of your book?
And you're like, well, I didn'tgo, like, oh, I'm going to
write a book with a theme.
You write a book and then thetheme comes out, because if you
try to write a theme, it's goingto be a kind of shitty book,
(40:43):
let's face it right.
Right, because you're writingto a theme.
You're writing it, oh my God,yeah, and you don't write to the
metaphor.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
It comes out, and then you're like oh, that's
interesting.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
You know that interests me.
Where the hell did that comefrom, you know?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Well, and also a poem might not reach you in one
moment.
And then fast forward a coupleof years.
You pick up the book again andyou read a poem and all of a
sudden you're like, oh God,because of stuff you've gone
through.
I've told this story before I'mlooking at it, but it's too far
for me to be able to see it.
It's this book of essays.
(41:18):
You're going to know exactlywhat this is.
I'm trying to read it from here, but you could make this place
beautiful.
Maggie Smith, oh yeah, okay.
I had heard someone veryliterary, we'll say say at one
point I read this book, I didn'tlike it, it didn't speak to me.
Put it back down, fast forwardsix months, I believe this
(41:40):
individual's either husband orpartner had left or she had left
.
Something had happened.
She picked up the book againand fell madly in love with the
words, because now they just hitdifferently.
And so I think that's true ofbooks period.
But I think that's part oftheir magic is that something
(42:03):
won't work, and then it willwork, and then it won't work,
and then it will work.
And poetry is so easilydigestible and yet so.
So again, it's like deceptivelyeasy, because people think,
well, how hard can this be?
You know, I've got this likelike milk and salt is a.
It's not a good example becausethat's a longer one, but in the
very beginning you have, youknow, the yew tree or 16, kind
(42:25):
of these little shorter poemsthat were vertigo.
I loved vertigo.
Wow, like for me and I'msomeone who's not to take it too
literally, but people also takeit how they take it, and I
battle vertigo like a lot andjust the way that you you
weren't really writing aboutvertigo, but it felt vertigo,
(42:45):
like I was, like this is how Iwould describe vertigo, right?
So if someone if I didn't, if Imet someone and they're like
I've never had vertigo, like Iwas like this is how I would
describe vertigo, right?
So if someone if I didn't, if Imet someone and they're like
I've never had vertigo, I don'tknow, I'd say, read this and
tell me if you understand thisRight, and if this feels
familiar, now you understandvertigo.
You just didn't know how to puta name with a feeling yeah,
right, so what are you?
Speaker 2 (43:21):
second to last question what are you excited
about with the launch of thisone?
How did it does it feel?
Sort of like a coming home,because you started with poetry
and it kind of made its way intothe Paper Palace.
Of course it's like pieces youknow out of God knows how much
work I had to boil down.
Boil down to what.
And the best part of the sortof discovery for me was that
when I printed out the ones I'dfinally chosen to give to my
(43:41):
editor, who would, then I knewthat you know they'd want to get
rid of some and keep some andwent okay, what's the book?
That's when I switched gearsinto like an editor head and
went oh, wait, a second, thoseare da-da-da-da.
And if I arrange them in achronology of a woman's life,
and not necessarily my life,it's always really important to
(44:03):
say there's lots of mothers inthere, there's lots of women and
narrators, and some of it iscompletely, but it's all
personal, it's just not literal,of course.
Having said that that, when Isaw that there was this arc,
what really interested me wasthat it's about point of view,
that when I was writing from thepoint of view of myself now, or
(44:23):
an older me, the narrator is amore evolved character, evolved
person.
The relationship between thenarrator and her mother is
completely different by the endof the book, right, and it's so
(44:44):
interesting that that, likeyou're writing so viscerally, so
when you're writing somethingand you're writing from a point
of view of a child, that pointof view is so different and the
feelings are different, and sothat was really interesting to
me.
Like I feel like the narrator,you know, develops like a more
of a sense of humor about thingsas well.
(45:04):
You know, in places, and butalso you know panic, and also
also you know panic, and alsoyou know all of the things that
we all you know some somewherein there.
I think there's something thateveryone has gone through.
You know, not in every part ofit, but you know whether it's
heartbreak, betrayal, falling inlove.
(45:25):
You know fear for one'schildren, love for one's
children, childhood stuffbeautiful stuff too.
You know.
Fear for one's children, lovefor one's children, childhood
stuff beautiful stuff too, youknow.
And aging, coming to terms withthings.
It's the story, it's.
I just feel like I hope it's asort of it's a more transcendent
arc in it and maybe, and Ithink when you say it's
deceptively small, it's becauseI think it has a.
(45:46):
It has a big arc.
Because I think it has a bigarc.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
You just made me think of something.
Do you think that with poetry,when you're doing it in this way
, where it's like the way youjust described?
So you start at an earlierpoint in your life, maybe your
childhood, and you're writingfrom that perspective and then
by the end you're writing fromyour current self or maybe even
your future self?
It's when we read fiction wesee the arc of the main
(46:15):
character and her or his growth,but when we read poetry, in
many ways not in every instancewe see the growth of the author.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, I mean.
I think.
What's interesting, though, isthat it's not.
I mean that a poem that I willwrite right now about a child,
about childhood, let's say thatwe'll have.
We'll even written at this age,because so many of those were.
Whatever is it still has,because you're still you're
accessing something.
(46:47):
You're accessing a truth, anemotional truth that you're
trying to transmute intosomething, and that emotional
truth is what evolves.
Your relationships with peopleevolve.
But if I'm writing about somewoman in her twenties, say I
don't know what, but like I will, that character is going to
come out as a differentcharacter, right, exactly, yeah,
(47:09):
like she's still up in there.
I don't know if I've evolved atall, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
No.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
I have that whole idea of being wise.
That was always one of my thingswith Paper Palace.
I was like, you know, there'sthis whole.
The only characters like wherethere's a sexy older woman, you
know a woman in her fifties, islike it's never that.
It was always like you knowthat she's the mother who knows
everything and she's foundsomehow wisdom.
And I'm like I get less andless wise.
(47:33):
I knew the path was long when Iwas five and all I can tell you
now is like that, the shoesjust arrived and I won't go for
a run.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
You know, these are the things I can tell you today
I am wearing workout clothesjust because I'm tricking myself
for the 30,000th day in a rowthat I'm going to go work out.
And I'm not.
It's too hot, see.
(48:05):
Like 50s as, oh my God, youknow, those people are so well,
a old and B wise.
And now I see posts on thesocials and people will say, oh,
I'm having my 50th birthday andI think, god, you're so old.
And then I go well, shit, likeI, I'm there.
(48:28):
And then I think, why am I notwiser?
Like well, I really thoughtthat came with this.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Yeah, well, there's that.
By the way, there's a line inone of the, in the one that's
called shrink wrap, which isbasically you know exactly that
where the character is sayingyou know, I don't want to spend
the rest of my life feeling withlike a child, and you know he
says but you're going to die achild, you're always going to be
your mother's child.
You're going to always be yourfather's child, like guess what?
That never changes.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
That never changes, which I kind of like.
Yeah, you know, you know, Ikind of like that I'll always be
younger than someone.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
That's the way I look at it, okay last question what
are you reading now or what haveyou read recently that you just
really loved?
You know I.
Finally, one of the things Iloved most recently that I read
was a memoir by this author,peter Godwin.
It's called Exit, wounds andGod.
He's a good writer.
Highly recommend it.
(49:21):
It's about his whole life in away, but it's also about the
year of his divorce and hismother dying.
And he's a British writer wholives in New York and has been
writing for years and years andyears.
But this he's really funny and Iwas so moved and so many
moments, like you say, I don'tknow if at any other time in my
(49:42):
life I would have felt the exactsame way.
But I'm reading, going, oh myGod, that's me.
That was me as a mother, that'sexactly, you know, doing his
kid's homework, you know likeyou know, oh damn it.
My son's, you know, now takinga course on Egyptian history.
I'm going to have to learnabout all that to help him write
the paper.
You know you're just going, ohmy God, but there was stuff like
that and I was just like, Irecognize that.
(50:03):
I recognize that it's.
I couldn't, you know, I can'trecommend it more more highly.
One of the problems right nowwhich is, you know, a good
problem to have, but is that I'mI can't really talk about a lot
of the things I'm reading rightnow, because I'm reading a lot
of books that haven't come outyet.
Yes, uh-huh, but um, that oneis one that I just finished and
(50:24):
then I, like, as I say, I reallyloved.
Like, as I say, I really loved,I have so much on my pile, but
you know, when you just suddenlycome out of something, you go
everybody has to read this.
That's how I felt when I, whenI got to the end of that.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Really yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Well then, I'll add that to my pile.
It's getting bad.
It's getting bad, miranda.
Like you know, my mom remindedme a couple of weeks ago of
something my grandfather used todo when he would finish reading
a book, he would put hisinitials and the date at the
beginning of the book, so hewould remember that he had read
it.
Because in the, in the vein of,like, forgetfulness, I keep
pulling books off my shelf andI'm like did I have?
(51:01):
I?
I feel like I've read this.
I mean, I do the same thingwith movies on Netflix and stuff
.
I started.
I think this is feelingfamiliar, but I don't remember
this scene.
So I'm going to start doingthat now.
It's just putting my initials,because I have so many.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
I have so many, there's just not enough time.
Yeah, by the way, there's notenough time.
And then, of course, I end upkind of like rereading you know
comfort books and all that stuff.
And then you're like I know Ishould be, you know, delving
into you know whatever.
And then, and then no, I'm like, oh, I think I'm just going to
go back and read Pride andPrejudice again.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
I'm just going to ask you will you tell me one of
your comfort books that you goback and reread?
Pride and Prejudice.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
I mean just ridiculously so so yeah, how
about you?
Speaker 1 (51:53):
Well, I am a little cliche in this world.
I reread the alchemist withfrequency, um, and I love Anna
Karenina.
Wow, well, that's yeah thoseare not that.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
I think those are pretty big books that are very
impressive to keep.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Well, the alchemist is a simple read, but it's just
so profound and I get somethingdifferent from it every time.
Anna Karenina is not a simpleread, but I just I.
It's a connection to mygrandfather and I just
absolutely I just love it.
I cannot thank you enough, ohthis was so fun, thank you.
This was so fun.
I will put all of your info inthe show notes.
(52:25):
So excited, so manycongratulations for your launch
tomorrow.
Thank you Well.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
I hope people read it .
I you know it's poetry.
I know people are scared, butit's not scary, I don't think
it's not scary.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
I can attest to this.
It's not scary.
Yeah, it's not scary, it's notlight, but it's not scary.
Okay, everybody, welcome back.
I am so delighted today to bejoined by the magnificent
Miranda Cowley Heller.
I have been waiting to do thisinterview, miranda, on like pins
and needles.
You just said that you aresweltering, but you're in the UK
and I am sweltering and I'm inPhoenix, so I want to know which
one of us has it worse.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I think possibly you, but I don't know which one of
us has it worse.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I think possibly you, but I don't know Phoenix very
well, to be honest, tell me whatthe temperature is and you're
going to need to convert it toFahrenheit because I don't know.
Good news.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I have no idea.
Bad news somebody is knockingat my front door, so I'm going
to ignore them.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
You can go get it.
I can pause it.
Pause for one second.
Yeah, tell them to go away.
Yeah, go tell them to go away.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Tell everyone to go away, I'll be right back, so
sorry, nope.
That was not.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It never is, miranda, it never is All right.
I might leave that in becauseyou know, no, like the whole
basis for this podcast is whatreally goes on.
It's usually what really goeson in the book writing world,
but I feel like it's alsobecoming what really goes on
just in life.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Okay, well, that was a pair of Adidas being delivered
and then the guy knocking atthe door and then walking away
with them.
So that's what goes on in mylife, by the way.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Very, very exciting.
I didn't need those anywaybecause I'm not going outside
because it's sweltering.
Do you have humidity over there?
Yeah, it's England, so it rainsall the time.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Okay, fair, I've not been to England.
It's very humid.
I honestly don't know thetemperature because I don't
understand the differencebetween Fahrenheit and Celsius,
and so they put it out there andI just go.
It's really hot.
He's knocking again.
It's unbelievable.
The guy does not get it.
I can't.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I'm not going to get my sneakers.
Do you want to go get?
Can you just scream?
Leave it at the door.
Like will he?
I?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
asked him to leave it at the door.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Well, feel free to go back and deal with that because
, okay, this is so awful, butthis is what goes on in
Miranda's life, guys.
Like it's not all roses.
I really was going to pausethis, but I think this is real.
This is the real deal she's gotto get her Adidas.
I always thought it was Adidasand now I feel like it's Adidas.
I'm going to ask her about that.
We're going to get to the books, don't worry.
(02:31):
Here she comes, here she comeswith.
Do you have the shoes?
Oh my god.
Just to prove this is so fun.
Now do you say adidas or adidas?
I say adidas and here they sayadidas.
So for so long people are, ifyou're listening and you're like
isn, are we going to talk aboutbooks?
We are.
For so long.
I said Adidas as a joke.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
That's British.
You're very British.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Oh my God, I also say garage.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Garage is also.
You're obviously British,Obviously.
What are you doing in?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Phoenix, I don't believe me right now.
I don't freaking, know.
I ask myself that on the daily,what am?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I doing here?
What is the temperature?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
there.
Well, today it's supposed to be115.
Oh gosh, right.
Okay, Not like that here, buthere is super humid.
So that's what I was going tosay and if I had to, pick one,
I'd honestly pick this Desert.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, and also, they don't really have air
conditioning in England.
Oh, no.
Oh, no, no, I don't have ACright now.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
So no On my daily gratitude.
Like my mental gratitude listright now is air conditioning.
My air conditioning went out inmy car last week and I was like
why does the universe like?
I know the universe doesn'thate me, but in this moment I
feel like it might be angry withme, like, really, it might be,
(03:43):
it might be All right.
So here, okay, your first book.
Can we talk about the PaperPalace for a moment?
Of course we're going to talkabout the Paper Palace.
We're going to talk about thisdelightful gem.
This gem, by the way, so forpeople who are listening and not
watching, miranda's justreleased, or is about to release
(04:03):
, has this come out yet In theUK last month and not watching
Miranda's just released or isabout to release.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Has this come out yet In the UK last month, but
tomorrow is my pup date.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
It is.
This is so delightfully timed.
Okay, excellent timing.
It's your first book of poetryand I want to talk to you about
poetry after I ask you aboutsomething, about the Paper
Palace, because this is a.
What's the word I'm looking for?
I, you know we don't have wordshere.
It's.
It's a misleadingly small.
The word I want is notmisleadingly, but I can't think
(04:33):
of it right now.
It's.
It looks small, it's like it'sa small little book, but it is.
It is rich in all the thingslike okay, we're going to talk
about that in a minute.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So, before I lose my train of thought, the only thing
I would just add quickly isthat one reviewer critic called
it a novel written in verse andI thought, well, novella, but in
terms of, just like the size ofthe story, in a way that you
can combine poetry and fictionin a certain way.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Also to play off of that critic, although I heard
critic and I got nervous.
I was ready to go fightsomebody, but then we have this
one.
Which is the difference betweenthem.
I want I'm going to ask youabout this but the what would we
call this?
The pentameter?
I don't know poetic terms atall, but this is written almost
(05:23):
like an essay, not like a poem,which I loved and want to ask
you about.
Okay, so let's go back to PaperPalace.
So you are one of theseunicorns who the exception, not
the norm, but the exception.
We all want to be where yourdebut is.
Just because Paper Palace wasthe debut, right, okay, the way
(05:46):
you're looking at me right now,all of a sudden I thought, oh my
God, is she like?
No, no, no, no, no.
Okay, the debut does so well,it's a New York Times bestseller
, it's a Reese's book pick, it'sall the things.
So I have a couple of questions.
Number one how long did it takefor you to get like?
Was that the first book thatyou wrote?
Pitched, all the things?
(06:07):
Yes, okay, so you really are aunicorn, okay, how long did it
take?
How long was that process ofwriting the book and all that?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Well, writing the book was a kind of on-again,
off-again process, because youknow, oh, am I going to try to
write a novel?
Okay, I'll try, and then maybeI'll fail, but nobody has to
know.
And you know, I remember when Igot to like but I didn't even
know, like we talked about wordcount in those days, I was like
you know, oh, I just wrote page100.
(06:37):
Maybe it will turn into a novel, like it was.
You know, I was just, and thenI would go for sort of swathes
of time and not write at allbecause I was busy doing other
things for work or whatever, andwriting poetry.
Actually, because poetryprecedes the novel.
It just happens to be publishedafter the novel.
Okay, and in fact some of itended up in the novel almost
(07:00):
verbatim, almost verbatim, butin any event.
So, yeah, so the process ofgetting from point A to a first
draft was probably like four,four, four years or something,
maybe five.
I mean, you know, because Ireally wasn't doing it all the
time.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
You know what's funny about that is, you said only
four or five years, as oh Ithink I said almost, but I.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Or maybe I said oh, I think I said almost, but I.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Or maybe I said I don't actually know, okay, okay,
well, I mean, let's clarify.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Cause?
I certainly don't want to putwords in anybody's mouth, but I
just fast, I'm not slow, I'm avery fast writer, but I am very,
let's say, like very ADD.
So I went up.
So I either I'm doing it or I'mgoing to a flea market and
looking for old pottery orsomething, somehow or other I'm
you know they have that.
I remember there's a term likeyou know, ass in chair writers,
(07:51):
and that's what you know everymorning or da, da, da, da.
I am quite literally theopposite, thank you.
So there's that, and we cantalk about all that later if you
(08:16):
want to.
So that happened.
And then I was in a wonderfulwriting group and I had a mentor
in that who ran that, and sothen I'd gotten an agent who I
love passionately.
Was that?
You know, we put it out thereinto the world on a Friday, and
I thought she said, well, itcould take a few.
I said, well, I'm supposed togo to London next Friday and
(08:37):
this and that.
And she said, well, just staynimble.
She said I don't know what'sgoing to happen, and she'd sent
it submitted on Friday.
On Monday she already had like10 meetings for me set for
Thursday and Friday, and then Iflew to New York on the
Wednesday.
I'd never met her, you know,had meeting, all these amazing
meetings, which was incrediblyfun.
And then got on a plane on theFriday to London because a
(08:59):
friend of mine was very ill andthat's why I had to go.
And then on the on the auctionwas Tuesday and that was like it
was the craziest thing and itwas just beyond.
I mean, that part was soexciting.
I was actually in a pub withfriends in London and I'd have
kept.
You know, go out to the outside, I don't have good, I'm sorry,
(09:21):
my terrible.
You know it was so exciting.
And then so that happened and,um, I went with riverhead,
obviously, and sarah, and thenthen british auction was the was
the day I was flying back.
The week later was flying backwas the.
So that week in london I metall the british people.
So it was just incredibly,incredibly exciting.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Of course, duh, so yeah, Okay, so I have two
questions related to that.
I feel like we're going downthis Are you of the?
When you were in younger, likeelementary school, did you have
to do the diagramming of thesentences where it was like the
noun, and then you have the?
I don't even remember, but theverb came down on a diagonal
(10:02):
line and then the subject.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Okay, I'm clearly much older than you are.
No, I think I'm too old forthat.
I'm much older.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I think it's like when I people have a visceral
reaction I mean I'd place money,I'll take that bet when people
have a visceral reaction to thatmemory of the diagramming.
So if anyone's ever done it,they know what I'm talking about
.
If they are confused, they'venever had to do it, so I'm not
going to use that as an example.
(10:29):
But the point is I'm seeingmyself going down multiple
different paths here.
The first one is you always, orhad you always, wanted to be a
writer?
Had you been writing poetry orsomething for so long?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Well, I mean as a very tiny child.
First of all, I come from afamily of writers and editors,
and so the whole concept ofliterature was always very, very
present.
My father was a book editor andhe's also a writer.
My grandfather was a poet, awriter, a book editor.
He was Kerouac's editor, he was, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Oh my gosh Really.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, so he was a sort of a literary you know
giant among the, among theeditorial world or the world of
people chronicling writers.
He was best friends withHemingway, blah, blah, blah.
So that whole world was verymuch a background noise all the
time.
And I spent an enormous amountof time with my grandparents in
(11:22):
Connecticut because my parentshad gotten divorced very young
and lots of new marriages andthe original kids get happily
left with the grandparents.
So I was very, very influencedby that.
Having said that, I recentlyfound last Christmas, actually
on Cape Cobb, I found apparentlymy first published piece of
(11:43):
writing which was written out bymy stepfather, who's a painter,
but in one of his sketch pads Ifound in pencil he'd written a
poem out with my name at thebottom and the date from when I
was five years old.
So that was like the firstright.
And then I also found this, notat that point but at a
different point, I guess I wouldcall it my first book I
(12:06):
published, which was a book ofnature poems that I wrote when I
was eight for my grandfather'sbirthday present, on like little
construction paper, theselittle pieces of paper.
And I saw, you know, I put mylike Miranda Cowley, you know
with the author.
I mean I really took myself fartoo seriously.
One of my favorite things isthat the five-year-old poem at
(12:29):
five, then the title was thePath is Long and the main poem
in my first book was called Life.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Talk about foreshadowing.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Well, by the way, the Path is long.
So I wasn't completely wrong.
If you're lucky, the path islong.
But yeah, I was like this ishilarious.
When I saw that I just couldn'tbelieve it.
So the answer is yes.
I always thought literature,literary world, always, you know
, big, huge reader, wanted to bea writer, you know, went off
(13:05):
and ended up being in theeditorial side of things instead
, you know, and I was too scaredactually, Really, I got really
really overwhelmed with thecritiquing of my family.
I remember my father I was, youknow, he was it was my first
like big, actual school paper orwhatever, and I'd done it on
(13:25):
Dutch painters and I had soproud of it I was probably 11.
And I brought it out to youknow, wherever he and his wife
were living, and the firstsentence was the Dutch painters
were the greatest painters whoever lived.
And he literally just looked upand went.
I'm sorry you can't say that,you have to say they were among
the greatest painters who everlived.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So that was what I was dealing with.
My mom is an editor.
She was not a book editor, butshe is.
I mean, she's still with us,thank God she is a well, she's
an editor, and what she edited,though, was like corporate, very
corporate stuff.
So, from the time that I couldspeak and I could say, me and
(14:10):
Katie my sister, you know wantto be the president of the
United States, she'd say Katieand I Katie and I right, and so
I'm so grateful for it now.
At the time it did give me thatsometimes I was almost afraid
to speak, and did you have, I'mcurious, if your family's
immersion in the literary worlddid that?
(14:33):
Did it feel almost like toomuch pressure, and or did it
make you feel like, well, thisisn't hard?
I have all these people whohave done it, and they have
connections and fill in theblank.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
No, it was absolutely too much pressure.
My grandfather said constantlyyou have to get your name in
print, you have to get your namein print.
When I was in high school, whenI was in college, you know, and
you have to try out for thepaper and you have to do this
and you have to do that.
And as a result, I was like adeer in the headlights.
I couldn't do anything becauseI was so afraid of failing.
I mean, that's the reason Ididn't publish a novel until I
(15:06):
was in my fifties is because Iwas so in my own head All I
could do was like get likeabsolute panic oh gosh, it won't
be good enough, I'll get creditRight.
So that is, I had to reallylearn to get out of my own way,
and that clearly took a while.
(15:26):
I had a lot of divergent pathsalong the way, but I did start
out my quote unquote careerafter college as a well, first
as an assistant and then as abook editor magazine editor, but
book editor.
So I went straight into thatworld.
Then I fell madly in love acouple of years after I'd been
made editor and moved to Italyfor love.
(15:47):
But I was living with thispainter and my idea was 100%
this will work, because I'mgoing to write the great
American novel and it just wascrap.
I just couldn't do anything.
I was just so self-conscious.
The writing was not coming atall from an organic place and
poetry is actually what got meback.
(16:08):
Going back to poetry is whatgot me back to the organic place
and freedom and like loving theblank page, because with a poem
, you have nothing in your headwhen you start.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
All right, Before I get to the poetry, because I
don't want to forget to ask youthis question when the Paper
Palace, just in this sort ofwhirlwind way, it sold quickly,
it hit New York Times quicklythen the Reese's book, Did that
give you a sense of well, Idon't want to even lead you.
What was your reaction to that?
(16:43):
What was it?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I mean unbelievable thrill.
I will say this and I think thiscomes from having been an
editor for many, many years aswell, and I did some
ghostwriting and so on.
I'm very lucky that I have theability to write something and
then go back to it as if I'm notme and read it as an editor, as
(17:13):
if I'm somebody else, and seethe weaknesses and see the flaws
.
And I think part of why it tookme so long to write the book I
write fast, but it was because Iwould go back and go, oh, that
needs to be filled out or thisneeds to happen here and that
hasn't happened and because Icould see it right.
I could hear it throughsomebody else's ears in a way,
(17:34):
and I think that's justsomething.
I'm very, very lucky to havebeen raised, you know, with that
sort of editing gene.
Yes, yes.
So I will say this that when Iput it out into the world, like
even just to get an agent and Ididn't use any connections is
(17:54):
that I knew that it was good.
What I didn't know was ifanyone would get it, because it
was to me so sort of odd andspecific and it's a literary
novel but it has a pulse and youknow I just thought you know
and obviously has an oddstructure and I thought you know
it is possible that this willnot sell at all and I will be
crestfallen, but I know that I'mputting something good into the
(18:17):
world and that's like.
That maybe sounds egotisticalor something.
I mean, it took me a very longtime to get to that place, but I
did know that.
Having said that, the rest wasjust unbelievable, of course,
and the most amazing was thatthe week that it was published,
they had said at Riverhead likeit seems like there's a
(18:39):
possibility that you might makethe New York Times bestseller
list, like there's a possibility, we don't know, don't get your
hopes up, and so on.
And I was on Cape Cod actually,and I was on the phone with my
shrink and call waiting, and Isaw it was my editor, and so I
answered the phone and, sarah, Iwas like all nervous and she
said so, you just debuted atnumber one on the New York Times
(19:00):
bestseller list.
And I became hysterical intears.
I'm talking to my shrink.
I went back.
Well, I have to go.
I got to call and I called myfather.
He started weeping, he yelleddown to my sisters.
Then I call my mother and shegoes I'm having a martini with
Flossie, it's just on the pond.
And I told her and she wentwell, why are you crying?
(19:22):
That's good news.
And I went, uh, and she went,anyway, my teeny's going to get.
You know, I can't let it getwarm, bye-bye, you know so,
right, but it was cool.
I like the fact.
I mean, it was just such a goodclassic.
You know the two.
So that was one of the like,unbelievable moments.
(19:42):
That was one of the like,unbelievable moments.
The funniest thing is that themy first sale.
Actually it was, uh, in Croatia, I believe, before it sold in
America.
I'm pretty sure it was Croatia.
It might have been Serbia.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Anyway, that was my first Like sale to a reader.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
No sale to a publisher.
Yeah, okay, Like before theauction, they'd gotten an offer
from.
Anyway, they'd gotten an offer.
I'm probably getting thisembarrassingly wrong, but anyway
, cut it out if I'm getting itwrong, but anyway, that was
really hilarious to me.
Now it's been life-changing, Tobe honest.
(20:23):
It's been life-changing in many, many ways.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Tell me what those are, if you would, because one
of the things I really do loveto do and it's not because I'm a
negative person, I mean I havea sign.
I show it with frequency.
Right up there it sayseverything is possible.
I firmly believe that I'm ahuge optimist and I'm also a
realist, and one of the thingsthat I love to do is to just
clarify people's expectations,because I think sometimes people
(20:48):
think, oh my gosh, if I hitnumber one on the New York or if
I get on the list or whatevermy life is made Like, I am in
the machine, every book I writefrom this point forward will be
accepted.
I'm financially secure forever.
No one can touch me.
And again, it's not to negatethe beautiful moments and the
(21:09):
beautiful things that happen asa result of that kind of and see
the air quote, but success,because everybody has to define
that for themselves.
What for you was maybe itdidn't.
It did work and didn't work theway that you thought it might.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
That's a really interesting question because I
think part of it does have to dowith age.
And, by the way, you can tellanybody you know it doesn't make
you financially secure forever.
Just sell a book, just FYI.
Not that that's an issue here.
But the expectations are sohigh, of course, for me, because
I'd spent so much of my life onthe other side.
(21:45):
I'd spent my career even when Iwas in television, when I was
in producing, when I was alwaysbeing the editor, the critic,
the person who's correcting, notthe artist, as it were, and for
me I had defined myself youngas a writer and then I just
wasn't.
(22:05):
And I spent so many yearsthinking, you know, and sort of
making little attempts at notwriting a novel, and when I
finally decided to do it, it waslike a last gasp.
I'd gone back to get a graduatedegree in art history, all
sorts of things that happenedthat are now, in retrospect,
incredibly lucky With myhusband's work.
(22:26):
He was going to be transferredto New York and I had been
accepted to a PhD thing inCalifornia and then the New York
thing got shifted back and I'dblah, blah, blah and one of my
best friends said you've beentalking about this writing and
that you feel like a failure.
As long as I have known you,you've just said I had this one
year and I don't know what to donow, because I said yes and no
(22:49):
to two different things.
She said why don't you make thedecision?
You're going to try to write it, you're going to give yourself
this year and if you don't do itor don't start something,
that's it.
I went okay and that's kind ofhow I started right.
(23:22):
But I think more specifically toyour question.
I always have been the personbehind the person.
I always have been the personbehind the person and that is a
great role in many ways.
To have a dream and write to meout of the blue from all these
different countries and talkabout something that's become so
meaningful to them.
That makes me feel whole, likethere's this whole community of
(23:49):
people out there who share afeeling with me and it's a
really wild feeling that for meis by far like the best part,
but also obviously like thenhaving the confidence, and it
made me much more independent asa person because also I was
going through my marriage, wasbreaking up, sort of during it
and after, really, although I'mstill married, as it happens, I
(24:14):
mean technically, but anyway,you know.
But so then, having to, like, goout into the world and reinvent
myself, yeah, yeah, uh, youknow the book had started while
I was married for a long time,you know.
But and the two things don'thave anything to do with each
other, much that people love toalways think, you know, fiction
is memoir, but the thing ofbeing suddenly alone for the
(24:37):
first time and empty nested atthe same time for the first time
, and having this book, was likeit's like having a third child,
but it was also like I couldstand on my feet and go.
I did it, and that is a ifanybody, you know, that's the
main thing I would say to putout there is that if you do the
(25:00):
thing you always wanted to do,no matter how old you are,
there's nothing like that.
It's better than having like forme.
For me, that experience had Iwritten 20, like medianly, this
was what I wanted was to write aliterary novel.
That experience had I written20, like medianly, this was what
I wanted was to write aliterary novel that would speak
to people.
(25:20):
That's what I wanted, that'swhat I dreamt of.
So it has really changed mylife.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Definitely I mean working on the Sopranos.
For God's sake, how did it feelto suddenly and very quickly
almost jarringly so perhaps bethe not the target, but the?
You know, all the reviews startcoming and with good reviews
come.
You know, of course, people whodon't like the book or who are
(25:51):
just having a bad day andthey're taking that out or
they're envious of who knows whythey do what they do.
But how did you navigate thatwithout having a lot of years to
slowly acclimate to what itwould be like to be not behind
the person or, but not behindthe camera, but in front of the
camera?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I mean I think that it said what I was saying
earlier is almost the sameanswer, which is two things.
One is I was, I knew that itwas good, like I knew the
writing was good.
And when you, when you can feelconfident in something, and
also, having been an editor inso many different iterations,
(26:34):
one of the things I learnedreally early on when I was
working for I worked as a bookdoctor for all these different
literary agents at a certainpoint in my life and whatever is
there's really I hate to say it, but there's no such thing as
the great unpublished novelunless you haven't actually
submitted it anywhere.
When you're a reader lookingthrough that pile, anybody,
you're desperate for somethingreally good, and so you know all
(26:56):
you want is to open somethingand go, oh yeah, oh my God, this
could be something.
That's you know what you want.
And, of course, a lot of peopledon't have the courage actually
to put their work out there, andthat's really sad.
What I'm, I guess what I'mtrying to say is what I had was
this sort of I can be veryinsecure, so it's not that, it's
(27:17):
just that I didn't have aparticular kind of doubt that
I'd always had.
It was like, if you know, likeyou've given, I was a musician,
like I knew when I'd flubbedsomething and I knew when I'd
done the in the orchestra, donemy part.
What did you play?
Flute Me too.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Really, I mean not in the orchestra, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
No well, I mean high school, please you know school,
I was in the marching band wayback when.
So when you know, I think it'slike that, that when you know
it's not like an ego thing going, oh I'm so good.
That's not what I'm saying atall.
What I'm saying is that whenyou are doing anything like that
, particularly with music, yougo, oh, that tone, that was, I
did it and you also know whenyou didn't.
(28:04):
So on that level I was like, ifpeople don't like it, they
don't like it.
Not everybody's going to likeanything.
That part I have been, I'm oldenough and have been around
enough.
Do you like it when somebodyhates your work?
Of course not.
It's hoppable, right, and theyou know the personal attacks,
(28:25):
of which there are a lot.
That's really a different issue.
And I and I really do take issuewith people assuming something
about you or saying, oh, you,you know, I had people on the
craziest responses, peoplecalling me names, calling it
sickening, pornography, whatever, but like.
(28:46):
But then not even just sayingthat, but then saying, like you
know I was a whatever, like itwas just horrible, yeah, that I
really think is upsetting.
So then I just stopped readinganything, did you?
Yeah, I just stopped.
I mean, you can't.
After a certain point you'relike you know what doesn't help
to read any of that stuff andeverybody always says don't you
(29:06):
read when you're first time, any, I mean please.
I was like, of course, ofcourse I mean please.
But then after a while I'm likethere's nothing to be done here
and people, people are going to, there's going to be haters and
I think you feel about anythingis people are going to like
something or hate it, but whenthey attack you personally that
hurts for most people the line.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
it's almost like it starts to infuse into your cells
in a way that you kind of can't, you try to block it, but it's
like there's no logical way toblock that, because our initial
reaction is to try to defendourselves and say like wait, I'm
not that.
And then we worry why wouldthey think I am that?
And so it can start to, really,if we're not careful and we
don't have good people around ustherapists and friends and et
(30:00):
cetera, right, god bless thetherapist to bounce things off
of and kind of assess well, whyam I feeling this way?
Could there be a piece of truth?
Certainly not to the reallyhorrible stuff, but yeah, that's
.
And I find that an interestingand almost not enjoyable in a
masochistic way, but Ianticipate or maybe I don't know
(30:23):
, I anticipate it and so I'mkind of fascinated by it when it
happens Certainly not whenpeople are just piling on, it's
just being shoveled, but I thinkit's when people don't
anticipate that and they're likewhy is this happening?
What is this going to do to mycareer?
She's like just let it be forfive minutes.
There'll be another drama oranother pile on.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
unfortunately, that will happen, but it is.
I mean, it's sort of like thosepeople who decide to go
personal.
In that sense it's almost likereally mean girls in high school
or grade school, you know, whoare turning people, trying to
turn people against you and likemark you as the loser, whatever
.
It's kind of that same feelingand, like you're saying, it can
(31:06):
be very destructive even thoughyou're a grown-up and you go
this, whatever it's likesomebody out there is trying to
hurt me, or doesn't you know,and or you know and it gets in
under your skin.
Yeah Well, you just stop, likestop thinking about it and, like
you said, people around you.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
And I think for people and I'm just thinking
this right now, but for peoplewho did experience that kind of
mean girl, I'm outside the coolclique, the popular clique.
If you did experience that inhigh school, elementary school,
middle school, it startsbringing it all back.
Because I've often said, aswomen specifically, I feel like
we never really leave highschool, those cliques and the
(31:47):
jabbing.
We try to stay away from it.
As adults we can recognize itmore and say that's not for me,
but it's still out there.
It's still out there.
You want to go find a MeanGirls clique?
It's easier to find thanthey're everywhere still they're
everywhere.
They're still everywhere, I know.
Okay, so this gem, let us talkabout what the deep water knows.
(32:10):
My question really is thisbecause there's just deceptively
that's the word I was lookingfor, miranda.
It's deceptively small, becauseyou start reading it and all of
a sudden I found myself beingtaken back to like it was
reminding me of things that Ididn't remember, that I
remembered about my own life,whether it was marriage, growing
(32:35):
up, being a parent, any ofthose sorts of things.
Poetry is such and I'm going touse this word, it's not meant
to be negative, but it's such aweird thing to me, because it's
really like there really are norules.
It feels like.
But are there rules?
I won't edit poetry for themost, unless we're talking about
(32:55):
well, there are certaininstances, but the majority no
because I just don't feel like Ifully understand the rules
around it.
How?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
do you?
I know, yeah, it's a verythat's a good question.
I think it's more like if youwere going to like paint on
somebody else's painting.
You can't really do that, canyou?
Yes, so it's a much more.
It comes from a much moreunconscious or subconscious
place.
You write from a kind ofdreaming brain, if that makes
(33:25):
sense.
You know it comes.
You know you just open up andyou don't know what you're going
to write Rules.
I don't you know, unless you'redoing like iambic, pentameter or
whatever you know there arerules if you're doing, if you're
writing a sonnet, there arerules in terms of if you are
writing form or meter, or youknow poetry.
In that sense, of course, Ithink you're saying something
(33:46):
that I say a lot, which is thatpoetry, which used to be like
the main and most accessible,you know, when it was Keats,
shelley or whoever form ofwriting for everybody and sort
of emotional writing it becamesomething that people think is
somehow either over their heads,out of their grasp you know
it's an insular, it's also.
(34:07):
Poets are almost like academics.
There's a lot of them, not allobviously, but there's a very
like of course you're not goingto get it kind of a thing.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Do you think it's an elitist kind of sometimes space?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I mean, it's not an elitist space or medium, but I
think that there is.
That is a piece of, you know,this little world where to get
recognized in any way as a poetis incredibly difficult to be
heard above anything, forstarters.
So poets kind of hate everyother poet.
So there's that, you know,there's enormous amounts of
(34:41):
jealousy and envy, which is youknow which I get, by the way,
and uh, and also it's completelya personal.
You know, all poetry ispersonal, right, there's no,
that does not mean it's aboutyou or that it's memoir.
What I mean is you don't writea poem about a gentleman I don't
even know what, a gentleman inMoscow, a spy in wherever, china
(35:03):
.
You're not going to write.
That's not a poem that you'regoing to write, right, right,
it's about transmuting feelingor experience or something into
words, and the words in thatsense are much more like musical
notes.
Actually, it's about, often,it's just about creating feeling
, right, yes, but it's.
(35:24):
I think if there's anything forme, it's that you write into,
you write with nothing in yourhead and out of it emerges
something, and then you can goand go.
Oh, I want to dig into that,but it comes very much from one
sort of dreaming brain, and soit's really a funny, amazingly
(35:46):
freeing medium.
In a way, it's also terrifyingto put it out there.
I mean, I would say it's likeputting out poems is like, to a
certain extent, it's likeputting out sort of snapshots of
your soul, and you know it'sreally much more difficult than
putting out a novel, honestly.
But I do feel very stronglythat poetry is, and should be,
(36:09):
one of the most importantmediums for people.
And I mean I'm going to justtalk about women, but obviously
men and women, right, but youread somebody that really speaks
to you and it is a punch in thegut.
It's so incredibly important.
And there's amazing poets, likea Mary Oliver who is so popular
(36:33):
that people start to go, oh,but she's so popular, she's an
amazing poet, right, and I'llread something of hers and just
go, god, like, and you just wantto carry it with you.
You know you want to carry thatthing, that image, that like
you know.
So I feel like one of the thingsI really wanted was to not to
(36:55):
write poetry that's accessiblein any way that's not what
you're thinking but to likewrite something that somebody
else can feel, you know, becauseyou can share it.
You know it's very similar.
I mean, I think fiction andpoetry are, for me, incredibly
similar.
But that notion of you justwrite from this place and then
if somebody else is like movedor touched by it, that's what
(37:16):
you want.
And, by the way, it's likecomparing you know you're a
musician.
It's like saying you knowStrindberg is better than Brahms
.
Well, just because you know youcan feel Brahms, you know,
doesn't mean Brahms is acommercial writer, right.
It's not about level of quality, right.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
But there's no reason that something should feel like
it's so dependent upon whatmoves you as the writer when
it's coming out and what movessomeone who would read it.
One book of poetry that I didwork on as an editor recently is
Lindsay Shigemoto wrote a bookcalled Revenge of Love Letters
of Hope, and she doesn't evenreally like to and I don't mean
(38:22):
to put words in her mouth, butshe doesn't like to call it
poetry.
She calls them letters, andI'll have to ask her if that's
because she feels uncomfortablecalling herself a poet.
I'm not.
I'll have to ask her that.
I don't know.
But what's interesting is inworking on it from an editing
standpoint, I wasn't looking atit like, okay, this doesn't work
(38:47):
from a narrative arc.
It was more like there was aconsistency issue or something
felt.
It felt like she could godeeper on something, like I
could feel it's all on feel.
I could feel her hovering on anarea and then it was up to her
to decide do I want to go deeperwith that or not, which is sort
of true with fiction or memoiras well, but it's just.
(39:09):
It's such a more digestible.
I can get more in a two-linepiece of poetry than I might get
from an entire hundred thousandword book.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, by the way, that's sort of what I was saying
earlier.
That's why that's one of themost important things, ps, you
know, particularly as ourchildren are growing up with
shorter and shorter attentionspans, you know, by the way, and
me and me.
But that's for me it's.
But you know, truly it's a formthat I think is well, I think
(39:43):
it's really important.
Obviously, I don't know how Imean.
I know how I feel if somethingis working or isn't, or it
speaks to me or doesn't.
You know and a lot of that isif you want to go back and
reread it a lot you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
If it stands the test of time, right, yes, and so
there's that.
But then you come acrosssomething and you just it takes
like a long, it's something,let's say, so simple.
And then it's like there's amoment where it hits you,
because that is one of the funthings about poetry is it's
almost, it's mysterious, becausethey'll when you unpack it.
(40:21):
That's why they kind of makeyou learn how to unpack it in
school.
Right, each metaphor, eachpiece.
It's not purposeful, but itsomehow comes out.
Does that make sense?
It's like people go what wasthe theme of your book?
And you're like, well, I didn'tgo, like, oh, I'm going to
write a book with a theme.
You write a book and then thetheme comes out, because if you
try to write a theme, it's goingto be a kind of shitty book,
(40:43):
let's face it right.
Right, because you're writingto a theme.
You're writing it, oh my God,yeah, and you don't write to the
metaphor.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
It comes out, and then you're like oh, that's
interesting.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
You know that interests me.
Where the hell did that comefrom, you know?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Well, and also a poem might not reach you in one
moment.
And then fast forward a coupleof years.
You pick up the book again andyou read a poem and all of a
sudden you're like, oh God,because of stuff you've gone
through.
I've told this story before I'mlooking at it, but it's too far
for me to be able to see it.
It's this book of essays.
(41:18):
You're going to know exactlywhat this is.
I'm trying to read it from here, but you could make this place
beautiful.
Maggie Smith, oh yeah, okay.
I had heard someone veryliterary, we'll say say at one
point I read this book, I didn'tlike it, it didn't speak to me.
Put it back down, fast forwardsix months, I believe this
(41:40):
individual's either husband orpartner had left or she had left
.
Something had happened.
She picked up the book againand fell madly in love with the
words, because now they just hitdifferently.
And so I think that's true ofbooks period.
But I think that's part oftheir magic is that something
(42:03):
won't work, and then it willwork, and then it won't work,
and then it will work.
And poetry is so easilydigestible and yet so.
So again, it's like deceptivelyeasy, because people think,
well, how hard can this be?
You know, I've got this likelike milk and salt is a.
It's not a good example becausethat's a longer one, but in the
very beginning you have, youknow, the yew tree or 16, kind
(42:25):
of these little shorter poemsthat were vertigo.
I loved vertigo.
Wow, like for me and I'msomeone who's not to take it too
literally, but people also takeit how they take it, and I
battle vertigo like a lot andjust the way that you you
weren't really writing aboutvertigo, but it felt vertigo,
(42:45):
like I was, like this is how Iwould describe vertigo, right?
So if someone if I didn't, if Imet someone and they're like
I've never had vertigo, like Iwas like this is how I would
describe vertigo, right?
So if someone if I didn't, if Imet someone and they're like
I've never had vertigo, I don'tknow, I'd say, read this and
tell me if you understand thisRight, and if this feels
familiar, now you understandvertigo.
You just didn't know how to puta name with a feeling yeah,
right, so what are you?
Speaker 2 (43:21):
second to last question what are you excited
about with the launch of thisone?
How did it does it feel?
Sort of like a coming home,because you started with poetry
and it kind of made its way intothe Paper Palace.
Of course it's like pieces youknow out of God knows how much
work I had to boil down.
Boil down to what.
And the best part of the sortof discovery for me was that
when I printed out the ones I'dfinally chosen to give to my
(43:41):
editor, who would, then I knewthat you know they'd want to get
rid of some and keep some andwent okay, what's the book?
That's when I switched gearsinto like an editor head and
went oh, wait, a second, thoseare da-da-da-da.
And if I arrange them in achronology of a woman's life,
and not necessarily my life,it's always really important to
(44:03):
say there's lots of mothers inthere, there's lots of women and
narrators, and some of it iscompletely, but it's all
personal, it's just not literal,of course.
Having said that that, when Isaw that there was this arc,
what really interested me wasthat it's about point of view,
that when I was writing from thepoint of view of myself now, or
(44:23):
an older me, the narrator is amore evolved character, evolved
person.
The relationship between thenarrator and her mother is
completely different by the endof the book, right, and it's so
(44:44):
interesting that that, likeyou're writing so viscerally, so
when you're writing somethingand you're writing from a point
of view of a child, that pointof view is so different and the
feelings are different, and sothat was really interesting to
me.
Like I feel like the narrator,you know, develops like a more
of a sense of humor about thingsas well.
(45:04):
You know, in places, and butalso you know panic, and also
also you know panic, and alsoyou know all of the things that
we all you know some somewherein there.
I think there's something thateveryone has gone through.
You know, not in every part ofit, but you know whether it's
heartbreak, betrayal, falling inlove.
(45:25):
You know fear for one'schildren, love for one's
children, childhood stuffbeautiful stuff too.
You know.
Fear for one's children, lovefor one's children, childhood
stuff beautiful stuff too, youknow.
And aging, coming to terms withthings.
It's the story, it's.
I just feel like I hope it's asort of it's a more transcendent
arc in it and maybe, and Ithink when you say it's
deceptively small, it's becauseI think it has a.
(45:46):
It has a big arc.
Because I think it has a bigarc.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
You just made me think of something.
Do you think that with poetry,when you're doing it in this way
, where it's like the way youjust described?
So you start at an earlierpoint in your life, maybe your
childhood, and you're writingfrom that perspective and then
by the end you're writing fromyour current self or maybe even
your future self?
It's when we read fiction wesee the arc of the main
(46:15):
character and her or his growth,but when we read poetry, in
many ways not in every instancewe see the growth of the author.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, I mean.
I think.
What's interesting, though, isthat it's not.
I mean that a poem that I willwrite right now about a child,
about childhood, let's say thatwe'll have.
We'll even written at this age,because so many of those were.
Whatever is it still has,because you're still you're
accessing something.
(46:47):
You're accessing a truth, anemotional truth that you're
trying to transmute intosomething, and that emotional
truth is what evolves.
Your relationships with peopleevolve.
But if I'm writing about somewoman in her twenties, say I
don't know what, but like I will, that character is going to
come out as a differentcharacter, right, exactly, yeah,
(47:09):
like she's still up in there.
I don't know if I've evolved atall, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
No.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
I have that whole idea of being wise.
That was always one of my thingswith Paper Palace.
I was like, you know, there'sthis whole.
The only characters like wherethere's a sexy older woman, you
know a woman in her fifties, islike it's never that.
It was always like you knowthat she's the mother who knows
everything and she's foundsomehow wisdom.
And I'm like I get less andless wise.
(47:33):
I knew the path was long when Iwas five and all I can tell you
now is like that, the shoesjust arrived and I won't go for
a run.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
You know, these are the things I can tell you today
I am wearing workout clothesjust because I'm tricking myself
for the 30,000th day in a rowthat I'm going to go work out.
And I'm not.
It's too hot, see.
(48:05):
Like 50s as, oh my God, youknow, those people are so well,
a old and B wise.
And now I see posts on thesocials and people will say, oh,
I'm having my 50th birthday andI think, god, you're so old.
And then I go well, shit, likeI, I'm there.
(48:28):
And then I think, why am I notwiser?
Like well, I really thoughtthat came with this.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Yeah, well, there's that.
By the way, there's a line inone of the, in the one that's
called shrink wrap, which isbasically you know exactly that
where the character is sayingyou know, I don't want to spend
the rest of my life feeling withlike a child, and you know he
says but you're going to die achild, you're always going to be
your mother's child.
You're going to always be yourfather's child, like guess what?
That never changes.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
That never changes, which I kind of like.
Yeah, you know, you know, Ikind of like that I'll always be
younger than someone.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
That's the way I look at it, okay last question what
are you reading now or what haveyou read recently that you just
really loved?
You know I.
Finally, one of the things Iloved most recently that I read
was a memoir by this author,peter Godwin.
It's called Exit, wounds andGod.
He's a good writer.
Highly recommend it.
(49:21):
It's about his whole life in away, but it's also about the
year of his divorce and hismother dying.
And he's a British writer wholives in New York and has been
writing for years and years andyears.
But this he's really funny and Iwas so moved and so many
moments, like you say, I don'tknow if at any other time in my
(49:42):
life I would have felt the exactsame way.
But I'm reading, going, oh myGod, that's me.
That was me as a mother, that'sexactly, you know, doing his
kid's homework, you know likeyou know, oh damn it.
My son's, you know, now takinga course on Egyptian history.
I'm going to have to learnabout all that to help him write
the paper.
You know you're just going, ohmy God, but there was stuff like
that and I was just like, Irecognize that.
(50:03):
I recognize that it's.
I couldn't, you know, I can'trecommend it more more highly.
One of the problems right nowwhich is, you know, a good
problem to have, but is that I'mI can't really talk about a lot
of the things I'm reading rightnow, because I'm reading a lot
of books that haven't come outyet.
Yes, uh-huh, but um, that oneis one that I just finished and
(50:24):
then I, like, as I say, I reallyloved.
Like, as I say, I really loved,I have so much on my pile, but
you know, when you just suddenlycome out of something, you go
everybody has to read this.
That's how I felt when I, whenI got to the end of that.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Really yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Well then, I'll add that to my pile.
It's getting bad.
It's getting bad, miranda.
Like you know, my mom remindedme a couple of weeks ago of
something my grandfather used todo when he would finish reading
a book, he would put hisinitials and the date at the
beginning of the book, so hewould remember that he had read
it.
Because in the, in the vein of,like, forgetfulness, I keep
pulling books off my shelf andI'm like did I have?
(51:01):
I?
I feel like I've read this.
I mean, I do the same thingwith movies on Netflix and stuff
.
I started.
I think this is feelingfamiliar, but I don't remember
this scene.
So I'm going to start doingthat now.
It's just putting my initials,because I have so many.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
I have so many, there's just not enough time.
Yeah, by the way, there's notenough time.
And then, of course, I end upkind of like rereading you know
comfort books and all that stuff.
And then you're like I know Ishould be, you know, delving
into you know whatever.
And then, and then no, I'm like, oh, I think I'm just going to
go back and read Pride andPrejudice again.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
I'm just going to ask you will you tell me one of
your comfort books that you goback and reread?
Pride and Prejudice.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
I mean just ridiculously so so yeah, how
about you?
Speaker 1 (51:53):
Well, I am a little cliche in this world.
I reread the alchemist withfrequency, um, and I love Anna
Karenina.
Wow, well, that's yeah thoseare not that.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
I think those are pretty big books that are very
impressive to keep.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Well, the alchemist is a simple read, but it's just
so profound and I get somethingdifferent from it every time.
Anna Karenina is not a simpleread, but I just I.
It's a connection to mygrandfather and I just
absolutely I just love it.
I cannot thank you enough, ohthis was so fun, thank you.
This was so fun.
I will put all of your info inthe show notes.
(52:25):
So excited, so manycongratulations for your launch
tomorrow.
Thank you Well.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
I hope people read it .
I you know it's poetry.
I know people are scared, butit's not scary, I don't think
it's not scary.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
I can attest to this.
It's not scary.
Yeah, it's not scary, it's notlight, but it's not scary.
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