July 9, 2025 • 23 mins
Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!
If you’ve been chasing the magical marketing strategy that will finally make your book “take off,” welcome to the club. In this episode, I’m addressing the question nearly every author eventually asks: What does it actually take to make a book successful?
Spoiler: there’s no guaranteed formula. Even authors with six-figure advances, NYT bestsellers, or celebrity blurbs still worry their latest book won’t sell.
So what are we really buying when we shell out thousands for a publicist? Often, it’s access and visibility, not actual sales. You can land your book in front of all the right people, and still... crickets. Why? Because readers are human. Think about how long you’ve let a book sit in your online cart before clicking “buy,” even if you really wanted to read it.
Success usually requires a mix of good writing, staying power, and yes, a little luck. But maybe it’s time we stop defining success only by sales numbers. What if it’s about writing something you’re proud of? Or connecting deeply with a few readers who say, “Your book changed me”?
Marketing will always involve experimentation. And when it starts to feel like a full-time job you didn’t apply for, you have every right to pause, pivot, or try something wildly different. Your book might find its audience next week—or three years from now—in a way you never expected.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Write the Damn Book Already
podcast.
My name is Elizabeth Lyons.
I'm an author and book editorand I help people write and
publish thought-provoking,wildly entertaining books
without any more overthinking,second-guessing or overwhelm
than absolutely necessary.
Because, let's face it, someoverthinking, second-guessing
and overwhelm is going to comewith the territory if you're
(00:23):
anything like me guessing, andoverwhelm is going to come with
the territory if you're anythinglike me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe ingimmicks, magic bullets and
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in.
Be sure to reveal that a resulttook eight years or required a
(00:43):
$30,000 investment in ads,because those details are just
as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing tips and
solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
at Elizabeth Lyons Author.
Over on Instagram at ElizabethLyons Author.
(01:08):
Hi everybody and welcome back.
So today we're going to do a bitof a solo episode.
I haven't done one of these ina while and I like to do Q&A
stuff where I can just do aroundup of the cues and do my
best to provide the A's when itcomes to book writing and
publishing.
And in the last couple ofmonths I've received several
emails from authors with whom Iwork, asking questions about I
(01:32):
mean to boil it like way down orbring it way up marketing.
And the gist of it is how do Imake this book go or take off or
launch whatever the terminologyis that people want to use?
And I got another one a coupleof days ago and while I won't,
without permission, reveal whosent it to me, the gist of the
(01:54):
email was Elizabeth, can yourecommend someone who I could
hire?
I don't want someone to run mysocial media necessarily.
I've done some bookstagramstuff.
Admittedly, there are peoplewith low numbers of followers
and I've said many times, it'snot necessarily the number of
(02:15):
followers but the quality offollowers that seems to matter
most.
Keep in mind that, no matterhow many followers you have,
social media is a very flightything and their posts are not
showing up in all of theirfollowers' feeds at all times,
and some of them post aboutsomething more than once and
some of them post in a varietyof ways and some of those posts
(02:37):
get traction and some don't.
But anyway, this author said Idon't want someone to run my
social media.
I've done these books togrammar things.
I don't want to hire apublicist, necessarily, who?
Well, I don't want to hire apublicist to whom I have to pay
my whole monthly salary, but Ijust want to find someone who
(02:58):
can help the book take off.
And those were the words thatwere used help the book take off
.
And that will that.
Those were the words that wereused help the book take off.
And so what I realized inthinking I knew how to respond
to this person who I I editedthis book.
It's a wonderful book.
It deeply resonated with me.
(03:19):
I have no doubt that it willdeeply resonate with the readers
that it's meant to touch andresonate with.
And still, I know that manytimes the expectation and the
perspective in this author spaceof what's going to happen, how
(03:40):
it's going to happen and whenit's going to happen, and what
it's going to take to make makeit happen and what life looks
like for people for whom it'salready happened, or so we think
, is something that ismisunderstood.
People write specificallynonfiction and memoir and
(04:02):
getting out of their own headand helping them get the stories
out of their head and helpingthem decide really what are they
comfortable sharing and notsharing, and what flow and form
it like, what feels good to them.
And then I'm very comfortablehelping people navigate the
indie publishing world, whetherit's through self-publishing or
hybrid publishing.
An area that I have admittedlybeen uncomfortable with is the
(04:24):
marketing side, because it is along game in this space and, as
Jane Friedman very accuratelystated, many episodes like maybe
six, seven, eight episodes ago.
This is one area the author areaspecifically where there are no
guarantees.
The author area specifically,where there are no guarantees
(04:49):
you can spend 10 years writingand studying and writing and
honing and studying andnetworking and there is no
guarantee that you will ever geta deal, that your book will
break out or take off.
The only guarantee is that youwill finish the next book if you
keep writing it, and one wouldargue that you'll become better
air quote at being a writer bycontinuing to write books and
(05:11):
you'll learn and you'll bewilling to write different types
of books that maybe in thebeginning you wouldn't have been
comfortable writing fromdifferent points of view or
multiple points of view.
Or perhaps you started as aromance author and now you're
working your way into thrilleror a dystopian novel or
something that those are theonly real guarantees that there
(05:32):
are.
So for people who are certainlyworking on their first book or
have just released their firstbook and feeling like, okay,
it's not going anywhere, what Ilike to do because I think this
is actually the most helpfulthing is, instead of saying,
well then you need to go do this, or you should go do this, or
you must do this, or this iswhat you're doing wrong,
(05:54):
continue to remind authors thatthis is a long game for all of
us.
And that's not meant to be atall negative.
It's not meant to be wellpessimistic.
It's meant to say most authorsstill have another main job,
including traditionallypublished authors with big, big
(06:17):
advances, including authorswhose first book or second book
or third book did very, verywell by comparative standards.
It hit the New York Timesbestseller list, or they were
shouted out by Oprah, or theywere part of Reese's Book Club
or Jenna's Book Club orsomething like that.
And even Melissa de la Cruz,many weeks ago here on the
(06:42):
podcast, said look, you're onlyas good as your last book.
And this is a woman who'swritten 80 books.
Now Her 80th book comes out inSeptember of 2025.
You can ride that for a periodof time.
(07:02):
That period of time differs foreveryone.
It's dependent on so manythings.
It's dependent upon how big theadvance was, how good sales are
after the advance has beenearned out, whether or not you
have a trust fund or a massivesavings account or a life
partner who is helping to paythe bills so that you can focus
on writing, marketing and doingall the things.
Where do you live in thecountry?
(07:22):
What is your lifestyle?
How much money do you need tohave every single month in order
to maintain that lifestyle?
All of those factors come intoplay.
So when this particular authorsaid, is there someone I can
hire that you can recommend tohelp me really get this book to
get legs?
My answer was no and I don'tthink that there's anybody
(07:44):
anybody could recommend.
Because here's the thing it'snot about finding someone who
has a large contact list.
A lot of publicists today willsay, for mid-four figures, so
$5,000 on average a month with athree month retainer.
So we're talking $15,000investment.
(08:06):
We can put you in front of thislist that we have this contact
list of X number of people andthat can be really appealing to
authors and they can get somegood expectations and some high
expectations based on that.
You know, some goodexpectations and some high
expectations based on that.
However, when that publicist isjust mass mailing all those
(08:27):
people and following up in avery you know, hey, I just
wanted to push this to the topof your inbox, hey, I just want.
They're not getting a lot back,and so more often than not, what
I hear from that is the authoris disappointed because they get
to the end of that three-monthstretch and maybe they've sold,
let's call it, 50 books, butthat doesn't even touch the
(08:48):
investment that they've made.
Which is not to say don't makethat investment.
It's to say make thatinvestment with the knowledge of
what your goal is with theinvestment, and I would argue
that the goal should never be toprofit off of your investment.
(09:10):
So if you invest 15,000, I'mgonna make it back with at least
$15,000 and $1 in sales.
That's what happens in thecorporate commercial world.
If you have a shoe company andyou invest $100,000 in marketing
, the idea is we want to atleast make $100,000 and $1.
(09:33):
I don.
You want to have a net profit.
That's the goal, unless yourgoal is visibility.
So for many authors who hirepublicity individuals or
agencies, their goal is notincome, it's visibility, it's
(09:58):
credibility, it's getting themin front of people who are
either readers or other writersin their genre.
It's getting them to eventswhere they can make connections
and they can meet people andthey can then nurture those.
Hire a publicist or an agencywho has those kinds of it's not
(10:23):
connections, but relationships.
I mean, maybe this is the wrongway of thinking about this, but
what I can say is, if I am amarket publicist and I'm not,
definitely not.
But if I were a publicist and Ihave a relationship, definitely
(10:43):
not.
But if I were a publicist and Ihave a relationship with Reese
Witherspoon and I know that Ican call up Reese and say, hey,
I'm sending you this book,you're going to love it.
I'm charging a lot of money forthat because that is a
relationship that I've built,that I have credit.
There's a credibility factor,there's a credibility fact, like
there's a whole thing there.
(11:04):
That's not going to be somebodywho's charging a hundred
dollars or a thousand dollars orand this isn't meant to get
into the nuts and bolts of isthat ethical, and should you do
that, and shouldn't you just bea kind person and introduce your
friends to Reese Witherspoon?
That's another conversation.
But professionally speaking, ifthat were, and that's why those
people who do have thoserelationships are charging.
(11:27):
That's one of the reasons thatthey're charging that level of
fee, and even with that, itcomes with no guarantee.
So it might be, hey, I can putthis book in front of Reese, but
there's no guarantee that Reesewill make it part of her book
club or put it on her website orher Instagram.
And even if she does, maybeit's a heavy news day and nobody
(11:50):
sees it.
Or a hundred thousand peoplesee it and three people buy it.
It's important to think asconsumers too.
When you're on Instagram, youknow how many times you get
shown the same ad for a product.
Right now, I am being inundatedwith ads for this product
(12:10):
called Quasi, or Quasi it'sQ-U-A-S-I.
It's some sort of a mask thatyou put on your face, a glycogen
, it's some sort of an oligenthat you put on your face and
then it dries clear and you takeit off and your skin looks like
glass.
I am being absolutely inundatedwith it because they know that
I've looked at it, that I'vespent more than seven seconds
looking at the ad.
(12:31):
So they just keep coming back.
And they'll keep coming back,probably until I buy it and if
we're being honest, I probablywill at some point.
But when we get the idea thatsomeone is going to see a post
about our book and justimmediately leave social media,
go to Amazon or bookshoporg orour local indie bookseller and
(12:51):
buy the book, we're not.
We're thinking with hope, we'renot thinking with realism
because we don't even do that.
So my one of my dearest writingfriends, neely Tubati Alexander,
released a few weeks ago herfourth novel, courtroom drama.
I am so wildly excited to readthis book because I was able to
(13:13):
read the first couple ofchapters before it launched and
it's wonderful and it's beingwidely like it's.
It's came out to wide acclaim.
Everyone's saying it's her bestone.
Yet it doesn't shock me at all.
I cannot wait to read it.
It has been sitting in my Amazoncart for three weeks.
I just haven't checked and Ihaven't bought it.
(13:33):
Like you should, see the Amazoncart.
That's a whole separateconversation.
But there are about 37 items inthere and I don't want to buy
all 37 at once because thatwould be expensive and feel
irresponsible and other things.
So I just go in and I clicklike which one?
I have.
Yet, since I started, since Iput her book in my Amazon cart,
haven't placed an order.
So the next time I placed anorder, sure, I'll check it and
(13:55):
it'll show up.
But she's one of my dearestwriting friends and she's become
, frankly, a dear friend, friend.
And I still don't have it.
So we really do.
It's important to a couple ofthings.
Number one remember thatthere's no magic bullet for
anyone in the creative space.
(14:17):
A lot of it is luck, a lot ofit is writing, putting your all
into something.
A lot of it is persistence,patience, being willing to try
something different, and I thinkthere's a lot of freedom that
comes with that.
There's no pressure that says,if this book doesn't especially
if you're indie published ifthis book doesn't take off in a
(14:40):
month, it's done.
Books come out of the woodworkas long as they're not out of
print, sometimes years afterthey were initially published,
and we just don't know when, why, how or through what outfit or
Instagrammer or word of mouth orwhatever that's going to happen
.
We just don't know.
(15:01):
So can we get curious aboutstaying focused on what we love
to do, which is right and can westay focused on?
Well, what's something else Icould try that feels fun?
So if something has stoppedfeeling fun and has started
feeling heavy and overwhelming,I'm like, oh my God, I am not
the girl who's going to say,well, you got to just keep at it
(15:23):
.
I am the girl who, because Iwill go try something else, will
encourage you to try somethingelse.
Take a break, take a break fromInstagram, Take a break from
Facebook, take a break from book, from touring, if you, if
you've self-financed some sortof a tour, take a break, like,
take a break from everything Ifyou want.
Everybody will be here when youcome back and you can come back
(15:45):
and try different things.
There is not.
I think that we it's alsoimportant and I'm so included in
this to change our expectationof what, of what success means,
meaning, what are we expectingfrom a specific thing.
If a bookstagrammer or a booktour, we join some sort of a
virtual book tour and we expectthis is going to sell thousands
(16:08):
of books, we're probably goingto be disappointed.
If, on the other hand, I mean,I'm all here for being
pleasantly surprised, by the way, but we're probably not going
to be pleasantly surprised If wesay gosh, I hope this gets the
book in the hands of one or twoor three people who will really
love it.
That's a, that's a win.
And so focusing on the salesnumbers as opposed to focusing
(16:32):
on how can I better immersemyself in this world, how can I
better understand how this worldworks, how can I accept that
I'm just like I'm one of this.
Now I'm part of this crew ofpeople who loves stories and who
loves words and who has wordsthat she wants to share.
(16:56):
Not so that I can fund mylifestyle, because that
typically takes, if it everhappens, a quite some time and B
it's a mountain.
So one book may hold you overfor three months or four months
or even 12 months if you'rereally lucky, depending on a
variety of factors.
Again, because your bookadvance doesn't necessarily take
(17:19):
into account your life.
Well, it doesn't take intoaccount your lifestyle.
So, if you live in the middleof nowhere and you get a multi
six-figure book advance thatmight hold you over for a couple
of years.
If you live in the heart of NewYork City or San Francisco and
you get a six-figure bookadvance that might hold you over
for five minutes, so, and thenyou, and then you're back like
you're back to having to figureit out again, write another book
(17:40):
or get, get, find a newaudience for this book or
whatever it is.
And I encourage all of us to beinspired by and encouraged by
the authors who have breakoutdebuts, traditionally published,
and they get picked up by anagent and then a house and the
whole thing, and also the indieauthors who have a breakout.
(18:04):
Somehow.
They do incredible upfrontmarketing, it goes wild on book
talk or whatever, and then maybea traditional house picks them
up for their next deal or theyjust choose to stay indie and
they write another book and italso does.
Well, I encourage because it'slike the lottery Somebody wins.
But to think that we're doingsomething wrong because we
(18:26):
didn't win the lottery is arecipe for people to stop like
to self what's the word?
Like to self-remove right Toexit on purpose the space.
And I hate that.
I don't want it to happen to me, I don't want it to happen to
(18:47):
you, I don't want it to happento the authors who right now are
writing whose book I'm going toabsolutely fall in love with,
and yet they're thinking well,should I even continue promoting
, should I continue writing itand then should I continue
promoting it, because a lot ofpeople aren't buying it?
Please do, because I haven'tfound it yet.
And I discover new books everyweek on this show through the
(19:07):
authors I interview.
Almost every time I've neverheard of them.
These are Pulitzer Prizewinning novels, they are New
York Times bestselling novels.
They are indie published novels.
It runs the gamut and I'venever heard of them.
And I read them and I love them, or I don't, because books are
a subjective thing and theyresonate with me, or they don't,
(19:29):
and that's usually reflectiveof me and not the author and not
the book.
Reflective of me and not theauthor and not the book.
But that's the message I reallywanted to get out there today,
and I think it's the messagethat I'm most passionate about
sharing is this isn't a spacewhere I have ever been
comfortable saying if you dothis, you will sell this many
(19:52):
books.
This is why I don't talk aboutdollars when it comes to my own
books, because no matter what Ido in a month, the next month
will very likely be completelydifferent.
I don't talk about salesnumbers with frequency because
and when I do, I'm very clearabout the fact that those
numbers are over 20 years.
It's not a month, it's not ayear, it's 20 years, and I've
(20:17):
written six books.
So if you do the math and youdivide that out, you realize
that I am not sustaining myselfoff of book sales alone, and I
don't consider that a failure.
I found another way to pay mybills that I enjoy dearly and
(20:39):
that allows me to stay in itsbook adjacent, its author
adjacent.
It keeps me attached to andconnected to and learning from
writers all day, every day, andnone of those things has been a
magic bullet, for, oh my gosh,you just had this person on your
podcast.
(20:59):
Now your book is going to gohuge.
I've had a couple not many, buta couple people say that to me
and I just laugh because it'sabsolutely ridiculous and it has
never been the basis for why Ido what I do.
So this is just yourencouragement today to keep
writing, keep talking about yourbook, keep connecting with
(21:21):
other writers, connect withreaders, take a break when you
need to, as, for as long as youkeep feeling the pull, or come
back to feeling the pull, tobeing in this space, it's where
you're meant to be, regardlessof what it may look like or feel
like, based on yourexpectations.
(21:41):
I hope that is helpful, and Iwill see you next week for
another fantastic interviewconversation, rather, with an
author who will almostundoubtedly tell you the exact
same thing.
Hello and welcome to the Write the Damn Book Already
podcast.
My name is Elizabeth Lyons.
I'm an author and book editorand I help people write and
publish thought-provoking,wildly entertaining books
without any more overthinking,second-guessing or overwhelm
than absolutely necessary.
Because, let's face it, someoverthinking, second-guessing
and overwhelm is going to comewith the territory if you're
(00:23):
anything like me guessing, andoverwhelm is going to come with
the territory if you're anythinglike me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe ingimmicks, magic bullets and
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in.
Be sure to reveal that a resulttook eight years or required a
(00:43):
$30,000 investment in ads,because those details are just
as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing tips and
solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
at Elizabeth Lyons Author.
Over on Instagram at ElizabethLyons Author.
(01:08):
Hi everybody and welcome back.
So today we're going to do a bitof a solo episode.
I haven't done one of these ina while and I like to do Q&A
stuff where I can just do aroundup of the cues and do my
best to provide the A's when itcomes to book writing and
publishing.
And in the last couple ofmonths I've received several
emails from authors with whom Iwork, asking questions about I
(01:32):
mean to boil it like way down orbring it way up marketing.
And the gist of it is how do Imake this book go or take off or
launch whatever the terminologyis that people want to use?
And I got another one a coupleof days ago and while I won't,
without permission, reveal whosent it to me, the gist of the
(01:54):
email was Elizabeth, can yourecommend someone who I could
hire?
I don't want someone to run mysocial media necessarily.
I've done some bookstagramstuff.
Admittedly, there are peoplewith low numbers of followers
and I've said many times, it'snot necessarily the number of
(02:15):
followers but the quality offollowers that seems to matter
most.
Keep in mind that, no matterhow many followers you have,
social media is a very flightything and their posts are not
showing up in all of theirfollowers' feeds at all times,
and some of them post aboutsomething more than once and
some of them post in a varietyof ways and some of those posts
(02:37):
get traction and some don't.
But anyway, this author said Idon't want someone to run my
social media.
I've done these books togrammar things.
I don't want to hire apublicist, necessarily, who?
Well, I don't want to hire apublicist to whom I have to pay
my whole monthly salary, but Ijust want to find someone who
(02:58):
can help the book take off.
And those were the words thatwere used help the book take off
.
And that will that.
Those were the words that wereused help the book take off.
And so what I realized inthinking I knew how to respond
to this person who I I editedthis book.
It's a wonderful book.
It deeply resonated with me.
(03:19):
I have no doubt that it willdeeply resonate with the readers
that it's meant to touch andresonate with.
And still, I know that manytimes the expectation and the
perspective in this author spaceof what's going to happen, how
(03:40):
it's going to happen and whenit's going to happen, and what
it's going to take to make makeit happen and what life looks
like for people for whom it'salready happened, or so we think
, is something that ismisunderstood.
People write specificallynonfiction and memoir and
(04:02):
getting out of their own headand helping them get the stories
out of their head and helpingthem decide really what are they
comfortable sharing and notsharing, and what flow and form
it like, what feels good to them.
And then I'm very comfortablehelping people navigate the
indie publishing world, whetherit's through self-publishing or
hybrid publishing.
An area that I have admittedlybeen uncomfortable with is the
(04:24):
marketing side, because it is along game in this space and, as
Jane Friedman very accuratelystated, many episodes like maybe
six, seven, eight episodes ago.
This is one area the author areaspecifically where there are no
guarantees.
The author area specifically,where there are no guarantees
(04:49):
you can spend 10 years writingand studying and writing and
honing and studying andnetworking and there is no
guarantee that you will ever geta deal, that your book will
break out or take off.
The only guarantee is that youwill finish the next book if you
keep writing it, and one wouldargue that you'll become better
air quote at being a writer bycontinuing to write books and
(05:11):
you'll learn and you'll bewilling to write different types
of books that maybe in thebeginning you wouldn't have been
comfortable writing fromdifferent points of view or
multiple points of view.
Or perhaps you started as aromance author and now you're
working your way into thrilleror a dystopian novel or
something that those are theonly real guarantees that there
(05:32):
are.
So for people who are certainlyworking on their first book or
have just released their firstbook and feeling like, okay,
it's not going anywhere, what Ilike to do because I think this
is actually the most helpfulthing is, instead of saying,
well then you need to go do this, or you should go do this, or
you must do this, or this iswhat you're doing wrong,
(05:54):
continue to remind authors thatthis is a long game for all of
us.
And that's not meant to be atall negative.
It's not meant to be wellpessimistic.
It's meant to say most authorsstill have another main job,
including traditionallypublished authors with big, big
(06:17):
advances, including authorswhose first book or second book
or third book did very, verywell by comparative standards.
It hit the New York Timesbestseller list, or they were
shouted out by Oprah, or theywere part of Reese's Book Club
or Jenna's Book Club orsomething like that.
And even Melissa de la Cruz,many weeks ago here on the
(06:42):
podcast, said look, you're onlyas good as your last book.
And this is a woman who'swritten 80 books.
Now Her 80th book comes out inSeptember of 2025.
You can ride that for a periodof time.
(07:02):
That period of time differs foreveryone.
It's dependent on so manythings.
It's dependent upon how big theadvance was, how good sales are
after the advance has beenearned out, whether or not you
have a trust fund or a massivesavings account or a life
partner who is helping to paythe bills so that you can focus
on writing, marketing and doingall the things.
Where do you live in thecountry?
(07:22):
What is your lifestyle?
How much money do you need tohave every single month in order
to maintain that lifestyle?
All of those factors come intoplay.
So when this particular authorsaid, is there someone I can
hire that you can recommend tohelp me really get this book to
get legs?
My answer was no and I don'tthink that there's anybody
(07:44):
anybody could recommend.
Because here's the thing it'snot about finding someone who
has a large contact list.
A lot of publicists today willsay, for mid-four figures, so
$5,000 on average a month with athree month retainer.
So we're talking $15,000investment.
(08:06):
We can put you in front of thislist that we have this contact
list of X number of people andthat can be really appealing to
authors and they can get somegood expectations and some high
expectations based on that.
You know, some goodexpectations and some high
expectations based on that.
However, when that publicist isjust mass mailing all those
(08:27):
people and following up in avery you know, hey, I just
wanted to push this to the topof your inbox, hey, I just want.
They're not getting a lot back,and so more often than not, what
I hear from that is the authoris disappointed because they get
to the end of that three-monthstretch and maybe they've sold,
let's call it, 50 books, butthat doesn't even touch the
(08:48):
investment that they've made.
Which is not to say don't makethat investment.
It's to say make thatinvestment with the knowledge of
what your goal is with theinvestment, and I would argue
that the goal should never be toprofit off of your investment.
(09:10):
So if you invest 15,000, I'mgonna make it back with at least
$15,000 and $1 in sales.
That's what happens in thecorporate commercial world.
If you have a shoe company andyou invest $100,000 in marketing
, the idea is we want to atleast make $100,000 and $1.
(09:33):
I don.
You want to have a net profit.
That's the goal, unless yourgoal is visibility.
So for many authors who hirepublicity individuals or
agencies, their goal is notincome, it's visibility, it's
(09:58):
credibility, it's getting themin front of people who are
either readers or other writersin their genre.
It's getting them to eventswhere they can make connections
and they can meet people andthey can then nurture those.
Hire a publicist or an agencywho has those kinds of it's not
(10:23):
connections, but relationships.
I mean, maybe this is the wrongway of thinking about this, but
what I can say is, if I am amarket publicist and I'm not,
definitely not.
But if I were a publicist and Ihave a relationship, definitely
(10:43):
not.
But if I were a publicist and Ihave a relationship with Reese
Witherspoon and I know that Ican call up Reese and say, hey,
I'm sending you this book,you're going to love it.
I'm charging a lot of money forthat because that is a
relationship that I've built,that I have credit.
There's a credibility factor,there's a credibility fact, like
there's a whole thing there.
(11:04):
That's not going to be somebodywho's charging a hundred
dollars or a thousand dollars orand this isn't meant to get
into the nuts and bolts of isthat ethical, and should you do
that, and shouldn't you just bea kind person and introduce your
friends to Reese Witherspoon?
That's another conversation.
But professionally speaking, ifthat were, and that's why those
people who do have thoserelationships are charging.
(11:27):
That's one of the reasons thatthey're charging that level of
fee, and even with that, itcomes with no guarantee.
So it might be, hey, I can putthis book in front of Reese, but
there's no guarantee that Reesewill make it part of her book
club or put it on her website orher Instagram.
And even if she does, maybeit's a heavy news day and nobody
(11:50):
sees it.
Or a hundred thousand peoplesee it and three people buy it.
It's important to think asconsumers too.
When you're on Instagram, youknow how many times you get
shown the same ad for a product.
Right now, I am being inundatedwith ads for this product
(12:10):
called Quasi, or Quasi it'sQ-U-A-S-I.
It's some sort of a mask thatyou put on your face, a glycogen
, it's some sort of an oligenthat you put on your face and
then it dries clear and you takeit off and your skin looks like
glass.
I am being absolutely inundatedwith it because they know that
I've looked at it, that I'vespent more than seven seconds
looking at the ad.
(12:31):
So they just keep coming back.
And they'll keep coming back,probably until I buy it and if
we're being honest, I probablywill at some point.
But when we get the idea thatsomeone is going to see a post
about our book and justimmediately leave social media,
go to Amazon or bookshoporg orour local indie bookseller and
(12:51):
buy the book, we're not.
We're thinking with hope, we'renot thinking with realism
because we don't even do that.
So my one of my dearest writingfriends, neely Tubati Alexander,
released a few weeks ago herfourth novel, courtroom drama.
I am so wildly excited to readthis book because I was able to
(13:13):
read the first couple ofchapters before it launched and
it's wonderful and it's beingwidely like it's.
It's came out to wide acclaim.
Everyone's saying it's her bestone.
Yet it doesn't shock me at all.
I cannot wait to read it.
It has been sitting in my Amazoncart for three weeks.
I just haven't checked and Ihaven't bought it.
(13:33):
Like you should, see the Amazoncart.
That's a whole separateconversation.
But there are about 37 items inthere and I don't want to buy
all 37 at once because thatwould be expensive and feel
irresponsible and other things.
So I just go in and I clicklike which one?
I have.
Yet, since I started, since Iput her book in my Amazon cart,
haven't placed an order.
So the next time I placed anorder, sure, I'll check it and
(13:55):
it'll show up.
But she's one of my dearestwriting friends and she's become
, frankly, a dear friend, friend.
And I still don't have it.
So we really do.
It's important to a couple ofthings.
Number one remember thatthere's no magic bullet for
anyone in the creative space.
(14:17):
A lot of it is luck, a lot ofit is writing, putting your all
into something.
A lot of it is persistence,patience, being willing to try
something different, and I thinkthere's a lot of freedom that
comes with that.
There's no pressure that says,if this book doesn't especially
if you're indie published ifthis book doesn't take off in a
(14:40):
month, it's done.
Books come out of the woodworkas long as they're not out of
print, sometimes years afterthey were initially published,
and we just don't know when, why, how or through what outfit or
Instagrammer or word of mouth orwhatever that's going to happen
.
We just don't know.
(15:01):
So can we get curious aboutstaying focused on what we love
to do, which is right and can westay focused on?
Well, what's something else Icould try that feels fun?
So if something has stoppedfeeling fun and has started
feeling heavy and overwhelming,I'm like, oh my God, I am not
the girl who's going to say,well, you got to just keep at it
(15:23):
.
I am the girl who, because Iwill go try something else, will
encourage you to try somethingelse.
Take a break, take a break fromInstagram, Take a break from
Facebook, take a break from book, from touring, if you, if
you've self-financed some sortof a tour, take a break, like,
take a break from everything Ifyou want.
Everybody will be here when youcome back and you can come back
(15:45):
and try different things.
There is not.
I think that we it's alsoimportant and I'm so included in
this to change our expectationof what, of what success means,
meaning, what are we expectingfrom a specific thing.
If a bookstagrammer or a booktour, we join some sort of a
virtual book tour and we expectthis is going to sell thousands
(16:08):
of books, we're probably goingto be disappointed.
If, on the other hand, I mean,I'm all here for being
pleasantly surprised, by the way, but we're probably not going
to be pleasantly surprised If wesay gosh, I hope this gets the
book in the hands of one or twoor three people who will really
love it.
That's a, that's a win.
And so focusing on the salesnumbers as opposed to focusing
(16:32):
on how can I better immersemyself in this world, how can I
better understand how this worldworks, how can I accept that
I'm just like I'm one of this.
Now I'm part of this crew ofpeople who loves stories and who
loves words and who has wordsthat she wants to share.
(16:56):
Not so that I can fund mylifestyle, because that
typically takes, if it everhappens, a quite some time and B
it's a mountain.
So one book may hold you overfor three months or four months
or even 12 months if you'rereally lucky, depending on a
variety of factors.
Again, because your bookadvance doesn't necessarily take
(17:19):
into account your life.
Well, it doesn't take intoaccount your lifestyle.
So, if you live in the middleof nowhere and you get a multi
six-figure book advance thatmight hold you over for a couple
of years.
If you live in the heart of NewYork City or San Francisco and
you get a six-figure bookadvance that might hold you over
for five minutes, so, and thenyou, and then you're back like
you're back to having to figureit out again, write another book
(17:40):
or get, get, find a newaudience for this book or
whatever it is.
And I encourage all of us to beinspired by and encouraged by
the authors who have breakoutdebuts, traditionally published,
and they get picked up by anagent and then a house and the
whole thing, and also the indieauthors who have a breakout.
(18:04):
Somehow.
They do incredible upfrontmarketing, it goes wild on book
talk or whatever, and then maybea traditional house picks them
up for their next deal or theyjust choose to stay indie and
they write another book and italso does.
Well, I encourage because it'slike the lottery Somebody wins.
But to think that we're doingsomething wrong because we
(18:26):
didn't win the lottery is arecipe for people to stop like
to self what's the word?
Like to self-remove right Toexit on purpose the space.
And I hate that.
I don't want it to happen to me, I don't want it to happen to
(18:47):
you, I don't want it to happento the authors who right now are
writing whose book I'm going toabsolutely fall in love with,
and yet they're thinking well,should I even continue promoting
, should I continue writing itand then should I continue
promoting it, because a lot ofpeople aren't buying it?
Please do, because I haven'tfound it yet.
And I discover new books everyweek on this show through the
(19:07):
authors I interview.
Almost every time I've neverheard of them.
These are Pulitzer Prizewinning novels, they are New
York Times bestselling novels.
They are indie published novels.
It runs the gamut and I'venever heard of them.
And I read them and I love them, or I don't, because books are
a subjective thing and theyresonate with me, or they don't,
(19:29):
and that's usually reflectiveof me and not the author and not
the book.
Reflective of me and not theauthor and not the book.
But that's the message I reallywanted to get out there today,
and I think it's the messagethat I'm most passionate about
sharing is this isn't a spacewhere I have ever been
comfortable saying if you dothis, you will sell this many
(19:52):
books.
This is why I don't talk aboutdollars when it comes to my own
books, because no matter what Ido in a month, the next month
will very likely be completelydifferent.
I don't talk about salesnumbers with frequency because
and when I do, I'm very clearabout the fact that those
numbers are over 20 years.
It's not a month, it's not ayear, it's 20 years, and I've
(20:17):
written six books.
So if you do the math and youdivide that out, you realize
that I am not sustaining myselfoff of book sales alone, and I
don't consider that a failure.
I found another way to pay mybills that I enjoy dearly and
(20:39):
that allows me to stay in itsbook adjacent, its author
adjacent.
It keeps me attached to andconnected to and learning from
writers all day, every day, andnone of those things has been a
magic bullet, for, oh my gosh,you just had this person on your
podcast.
(20:59):
Now your book is going to gohuge.
I've had a couple not many, buta couple people say that to me
and I just laugh because it'sabsolutely ridiculous and it has
never been the basis for why Ido what I do.
So this is just yourencouragement today to keep
writing, keep talking about yourbook, keep connecting with
(21:21):
other writers, connect withreaders, take a break when you
need to, as, for as long as youkeep feeling the pull, or come
back to feeling the pull, tobeing in this space, it's where
you're meant to be, regardlessof what it may look like or feel
like, based on yourexpectations.
(21:41):
I hope that is helpful, and Iwill see you next week for
another fantastic interviewconversation, rather, with an
author who will almostundoubtedly tell you the exact
same thing.
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