July 16, 2025 • 36 mins
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In this episode, I sit down with Tiffany Graham Charkosky to talk about her forthcoming memoir, Living Proof (October 21, Little A), a book written and shaped over years of writing and rewriting.
At just 11 years old, Tiffany lost her mother. For decades, she believed it was an unexplainable tragedy, until a DNA test unearthed information that changed everything. That discovery didn’t just reshape her understanding of her mother’s death; it also made her question what she might unknowingly pass on to her own children.
INSIDE THE EPISODE
- The emotional (and editorial) decision-making around what belongs in a book
- How long it took for her story to find its true shape (and why)
- The surprising speed of her publishing deal once it all came together
- How do we process loss as kids versus adults? And what happens when new information forces us to reinterpret our past?
Tiffany’s story is as deeply personal as it is universally relatable.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am so excited to be joined today by Tiffany
Graham-Czarkowski, whose novelalthough this is really a memoir
, right Memoir Living Proof, isit?
It's not out yet.
No, october 31st, 21st, 21stOkay, I had one number right
October 21st which just feelsit's July for point of reference
(00:20):
.
Where in the world are you,tiffany?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm in just outside Cleveland Ohio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Okay, all right, so you're dealing with some
humidity.
I'm in Phoenix where it feelslike it will never be October.
I was quite delighted to getthis memoir in the mail.
Don't spoil anything for meplease, cause I'm just I've just
broached it.
I think I'm at like chapterfour.
What I love about it so far isand this is me, this is a
(00:50):
subjective thing, so I don'twant anyone listening who's
working on memoir to think thisis the way it has to be your
chapter so far quick, and what Ifind happening for me with that
is I think I'll just readanother chapter and then I get
through it so quickly that I'mlike I'm going to read another
chapter.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I'll read one more, because it's just a couple pages
.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Exactly, and before I know it, it's 2.30 in the
morning and I'm at the end ofthe book.
So, memoir is?
You use the word fascinating somuch I'm trying to find a
substitute word.
I'm not doing a good job, sowe'll just use fascinating for
today.
It's a fascinating genre for meto talk to people about because
(01:31):
, number one, it's notoriouslychallenging to sell.
Yes, and you sold this tolittle.
Is it little a?
I know it's an.
Amazon, yep, and so I'm.
I'd love to ask you about yourprocess there.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
First, yeah, so I think that I had a pretty
untraditional acquisitionprocess, so I'll just start out
with that out the gate.
Um, I got my literary agent,lori Dennison, with Creative
Media Agency.
I got her last spring, sospring of 2024.
And we were going through, wedid two rounds of edits so that
(02:13):
we were kind of deep in thethroes of my second edit last
summer with the intention ofgoing on submission last fall
and Lori called me and saiddon't be mad, I soft pitched
this, your project, to an editorwho lost a memoir for 2025.
So can you work really quicklyto pull your book proposal
(02:37):
together, which I'd submitted aproposal, you know, when I was
querying and she's like just,you know, work on the first 50
pages, just focus on getting thefirst 50 pages as good as you
can get them.
And so I sent those off toSelena at Little A and they
interviewed a couple weeks laterand then a couple months later
(02:57):
I had a book offer.
So it was amazing and it wascrazy because you do see, all
the time memoir is so hard tosell and so I had been sort of
gearing up for this like reallylong process and you know how
would we do that, and it was along process to get to the part
of finding an agent and writingthe book, of course, but
(03:18):
actually moving into thepublication stage has been a
little bit of a whirlwind, inthe best way.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
And I enjoy that because I talk to authors who
say I was working on the bookfor 27 years and then it took me
37 years to find an agent andthen another 47 years, and
obviously I'm being dramatic foreffect.
I love the opposite side ofthat as well and I'm trying to
think right now.
Julie Chavez everyone butmyself.
When I spoke with her aboutthis same thing really fast like
(03:48):
she didn't even necessarilyCorey she actually got her deal
with Zibi Publishing before shehad an agent.
So she went out and got anagent and I enjoy having all
things are possible, right.
So what did you ever consider?
Self-publishing or hybridpublishing, or for you was it
(04:09):
kind of always a?
I want to go traditional, andhere's why.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I think I wanted to see how far I could take it and
sort of where it might land.
So it wasn't like I need tohave this, you know,
traditionally published oranything like that.
But I think I just kept workingand trying and you know,
querying is exhausting.
I think I queried about 60agents over the course of two
(04:36):
years, so it wasn't like aconstant barrage or something,
but sort of noticed like, oh,nobody's biting at this, is it
the query or is it the pages,like so just continually trying
to make both better and so yeah,so I wasn't dead set on you
know either road.
I think I just wanted to seehow how far can I take this
(04:59):
story.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
And then make a decision.
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And I don't have like a ton of money to, you know,
self-publish something.
So I was thinking about that,you know side of things, that
aspect as well.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, how long did it take you to get the draft?
Another reason memoir is sointeresting and it's tricky is
that it can take a while to getthat first draft to the point
where you feel comfortablesharing it with anyone, let
alone quarrying it, because it'sso personal.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, well, it took me.
I started working on this about10-ish years ago and it doesn't
mean I was working on it allday, every day.
It was like I did a first draftin about a year.
That was like so bad that Ididn't know what to do with,
like I was just like I don'teven know what to make of this
material.
And then it was probably, youknow, around the beginning of
(05:49):
the pandemic, when I had nowhereelse to go and nowhere else to
be and I thought, if I can'tlike really carve out a time to
do this now, then when else willI do it?
So I spent maybe two years,about two years, between that
and, like, working on it, thenstarted sending it out and I did
have one lovely agent respondand say the story is.
(06:13):
I think it's a lovely story, Idon't see how I can position it
and I don't see a narrative archere.
And I was like what is anarrative arc?
I don't know what that means.
I don't have an MFA.
So then I had to go back and,like you know, you read all
these craft books and takewriting classes and sort of like
muscled it into a structurethat gave it, like you know the
(06:36):
story arc and so that wasprobably the most helpful
feedback that I got through.
The whole process was like findthe story and then when I was
going through revisions with myagent, she was like ruthless in
saying what is this about?
What is this about?
And it's amazing.
I mean you've written so manybooks like how much you have to
cut away and then how much moreyou add back in in order to make
(06:57):
the book about what it is about.
So there's a lot of stuff youwrite through that feels like
it's critical and then yourealize it's actually not part
of the story.
It was just part of getting tothe story.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
We talk about that all the time.
I talk about that in my writinggroup and with on this podcast,
about how much we're writingour way through and into and out
of the story and into ourunderstanding of the story.
And one of the things that Iask people often when I'm
editing memoir is why does thismatter?
And I am not challenging themas though I'm saying like this
(07:34):
doesn't matter.
I'm legitimately asking whydoes this matter?
Yeah, because sometimes and Ilove it when an author can come
back and say this mattersbecause, and then I go, yeah,
yeah, because sometimes and Ilove it when an author can come
back and say this mattersbecause, and then I go, yeah,
okay, I get that, but that's notcoming through in the words Yep
(07:55):
, and other times an author willsay maybe it doesn't like,
maybe I just needed to vent that.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, it's really interesting and going through
the editorial process which issomething I wish for every
writer I know like find aneditor who can help you answer
those questions of saying whydoes this matter?
Or say this exists in yourbrain, but this isn't showing up
here and I need you to do morework for that.
Like it's just an amazing giftto work with an editor who can
(08:22):
help you do that.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That's another great point.
We have stuff in our brain thatis not on the page.
Everyone, it doesn't matter.
You could have written 80 books, you could be Melissa de la
Cruz with your 80th book comingout in September, and it's in
your brain.
So you think it's on the page.
It's not on the page.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
No, or maybe it's in like an old draft and you cut it
and you're like did I leavethis?
Did I cut it?
Where am I in this story?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yes, I was working on a book yesterday and I had a
note in one chapter that saidsomething I'm paraphrasing.
But remember, back in chapterfour we talked about X and I
messaged the author and I saidwhere the hell is this?
I said it's back in chapterfour.
It's not in chapter four.
Did it get cut Like?
Where is it?
(09:10):
So that happens, we get crazywith version control and where
did it go?
And is it in the parking lot oris it in the trash?
Or when you said that yourfirst draft was I don't remember
your exact words, but not good.
It was some version of not good.
What was it that kept pullingyou back to keep, as opposed to
saying screw this?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Well, I think that if you have a story inside of you
that just doesn't leave you, Ifeel like that your creativity
talks to you and it's like whatare these things that I need to
express?
Or I haven't seen expressed inother ways, and I know that
you're early in my book so Iwon't spoil anything for you.
But I did go through genetictesting and I was sort of
(09:54):
desperate to find books thattalked about this process and
where I was.
And I'm like the kind of personwho, like I want to read a book
about everything.
If I start cooking a new food,I want to go find books on it.
Yeah, I want to read.
I want to read books aboutwhatever, wherever I am in my
life, and I was like I can'tfind the book that I need to
(10:17):
read right now.
And I had a wonderful likegenetic counselor and I have a
wonderful medical team, but Iwas like I don't have anyone to
talk about this with and I don'thave any.
There were, you know, like chatrooms on Facebook and things
like that, but like that feelingthat I think you get from
reading a memoir is like I'm notalone or like our experiences
(10:40):
aren't exactly the same, butlike I have felt that way before
and I'm not crazy for feelingthat way, I'm not a bad person
because this is how I'm feelingin this moment and so for me it
was just like if I can makesomething positive out of this
experience and like help peoplefeel seen in this, like in this
(11:02):
moment.
And I think the other thing islike genetics are always
advancing, like and I have notraining in the world of
genetics, I'm not a geneticist,I'm not a medical professional
but it's this feeling thatthere's all this information out
there, like you can take a swabof your you know saliva, send
it off to the universe, find outyou have family members you
didn't know I did, you did, yeah, find out.
(11:26):
You like carry a geneticcondition that you should be
getting surveyed, like, screenedfor, but there's nothing in
that that says like here's theemotional pathways that you can
follow to sort of, like you know, navigate this experience.
So for me, it was this feelingthat like I was going through
something that I'm certain otherpeople are going through or
(11:47):
have gone through, but I wasn'tfinding that story that I needed
to relate to.
And so I wake up every morning,I have a full-time job.
I have two kids and it was likeit motivated me to wake up out
of bed and I think if you have athing that you're working on
that's like come on, tiffany,come hang out with me, we've got
work to do.
It kind of felt like that.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
That's delightful that you just said that, because
I, as I've made no secret of,and working on my first novel, I
feel like Tiffany, I'm going tobe saying that at episode 672,
like I'm still working on it,I'm still working on my first
novel too, are you really Okay?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So we're going to enjoy this together.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yesterday morning I had a conversation and I want to
come back to a bunch of stuffyou just said but I had a
conversation with someonerecently and I think it was
Audrey Ingram.
I'm not 100 percent sure, iteasily could be her, even if
it's not, because she's justbrilliant.
But she said something aboutsort of becoming one with your
(12:47):
characters and even if you'rewriting memoir, right, you're
becoming sort of one withyourself and with your reader
and why you're doing it.
And I thought yesterday morning, as I was surveying my closet
and all the gray t-shirtsbecause that's all I have are
gray t-shirts I thought, youknow, maybe I'm letting Hallie,
my main character, down becauseI'm not with her every day, and
(13:12):
so maybe that's what will bekind of the motivation.
Maybe I need to sort of feelthis pull of my main character
saying Liz, let's just go havecoffee.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I have a main character in my novel and I love
the feeling of being like I'mgoing to go hang out with my
novel characters for a littlewhile and it's something like
only somebody who writes thatcan know that feeling.
But of like, or you know, Ikind of had to put the novel
away as I was deep in therevisions of this book and I
(13:46):
find myself saying to my maincharacter's name is Gwen, I'm
like I'll be back, I'll be back,Don't go anywhere.
Because I don't know if you'veread the Big Magic by Elizabeth
Gilbert.
She talks about ideas, havingthese, looking for places that
they can land, and she's like Iwrote this book and then Ann
Patchett wrote this book andbecause I wasn't giving it
(14:06):
attention.
And so I find myself liketalking to my characters, where
I'm like I'm coming back for you.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Well, that's the thing is, I'm I'm such a like
recovering people pleaser.
I say recovering, I think, justto make myself feel better, to
people please myself.
But I'm such a recoveringpeople pleaser that I think of
it like this is a real personand she feels left, left alone,
and so I can't do that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I can't leave this fake real person alone, and so
all right.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So coming back to some stuff that you just said
about memoir writing and helpingpeople feel that they're not
alone and the emotions that areinvolved in genetic discoveries
and such, you know I people aredrawn to books for a variety of
reasons.
I am not drawn to your bookbecause I have a similar
scenario.
(14:54):
I wasn't drawn to Breathtakingby Jesse Fine because I have a
child with.
She had a child who passed acouple of years ago.
There's something that you'reso.
There's the group of people whowill read it because they
identify in some way verydirectly.
Then there are people who willread it because they just want
(15:14):
to know how you navigatedsomething like that and they
will still glean something fromthat.
And one of my very best friends'moms passed of ALS and my
friend was young, I think around17, when that happened, and so
through her I understand thediscomfort, the fear, insert
(15:36):
whatever word anybody wouldchoose of oh my gosh, do I carry
this?
Am I passing this along?
That sort of a thing.
And so just my relationshipwith her even intrigues me to
want to understand more yourjourney, because I have a
feeling that people listening orwatching are thinking well,
what the hell is this book about?
Can you give kind of a?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah.
So my mom died when I was 11.
For most of my adult life Ithought that it was just bad
luck she was dead, it was over.
Now I'm living my life.
We all work really hard whensomebody we love dies, I mean
whether it's a mother, a father,a grandparent, child.
You do a lot of work to figureout how to live in the world
(16:22):
without somebody who you love,and so I think for me, I had
reached this point where I feltlike I have this great life, I
have this husband, I have thisson who I love, I have this job.
And then it was like oh, by theway, like your mom died, it was
bad luck, but like it was morelike a coin toss and, by the way
, like you might have it too.
(16:43):
And so I think the thing that Ireally had to work through was
that.
And so there's a couple ofpieces to this.
One is that like you lose yourchild, your mother.
As a child, it's one type ofloss I felt like suddenly I was
losing her.
As an adult, I was losing, youknow, a different version of my
(17:03):
mother in a different time in mylife, and I had to look at like
, what does that mean for me asa mother?
Like, how am I, what is thelegacy I'm leaving for my
children?
How do I, how do I do this?
And so I hope there's a coupleof layers to that, which is,
like, you know, not everybody isgoing to get genetic testing
(17:24):
and I think that's like my pathinto this.
But like when I read, forexample, cheryl Strayed's story
the Love of my Life, like I havenever been like gutted like I
was when I read that story.
I read, for example, cherylStrayed's story the Love of my
Life, like I have never beenlike gutted like I was when I
read that story.
I read it standing up in aBarnes and Noble the year the
best American essays came out.
I bought it.
I was like other people feelthis, like I cannot keep living,
(17:48):
I'm blowing my life up, like itwas this feeling of like this
is kind of a big deal and like Ithink that, like when you're a
kid, you're sort of just likeI'm just gonna like keep going,
I'm just gonna keep living.
And that can mean a lot ofdifferent things.
It can mean you know you go toget good grades, which was like
the route.
Now's the time, you know,almost 20 years later now,
(18:16):
you're really going to like dealwith this, and so I feel like
that is a universal feeling.
That isn't just about like, oh,and I had my blood drawn and
whatever.
It's more like my world isdifferent, oh, and the whole
world I thought I'd lived isalso different.
So I think that like that sortof for me, where this story is
(18:38):
not just about, like you know,genetic testing which of course
it is but it's sort of like youknow, when you know more about
yourself, how do you build thelife that you want to have, how
do you love the people in yourlife and carve out that space
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Well, and does it?
Did it create for you and I'mcurious if it creates for other
a different lens through whichyou start to look at everything
that has transpired, or manythings that have transpired,
between the time that, when thatthing happened, and today.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Oh, I mean 100%, 100% .
And like I, you know, my momwas 11.
I have two sons.
They're now 16 and one will be13 next week.
My dad was younger than I waswhen this happened, like my dad
was.
My mom was 30 when she passedaway.
My dad was 33.
So I'm 43 now.
(19:32):
Like I'm looking at these things, it's like I can look back in
time and be like this is whatteenage Tiffany was feeling like
at this moment.
But, by the way, like here'sthe age that my dad was and it's
all of a sudden I can startlike forgiving these things.
That like when you're young youdon't understand, but you can
go back with like wisdom andtime and be like, okay, we're
(19:53):
all actually just like humanstrying to do our best with what
we know at that moment and live.
You know our lives, and so Ithink like a hundred percent it
has done that for me.
Like, and I think part of theamazing thing of writing a
memoir is like you are forced tofind the narrative in your life
.
You don't get to just like livein the confusing messiness.
(20:15):
Like, all of a sudden it's likeoh yeah, tiffany, why are you
like that?
And you can kind of see it laidout on the page right in front
of you.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So what did you find to be the narrative arc, that
arc that that delightful agentcalled your attention to?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, so my book's broken down into three parts and
sort of the first part is itgoes forward and backwards in
time.
The scenes alternate between mebeing a child and me being an
adult going through the genetictesting process and then so
that's sort of end of phase.
The end of part one is, likeyou know, you've gone through
(20:55):
the testing and then phase twois sort of you know, the middle
part of the book.
That messy middle part is, likeyou know, 13 years have passed
since I've done that.
Like I've had a couplesurgeries.
Like I have another child.
I had to make some big decisionslike health wise and you know
navigate, you know what are myfamily relationships?
(21:15):
Like Like not everybody in myfamily has this mutation, it's
50 50.
Like I don't have really, youknow, there's a lot of you know
kind of the middle part.
And then getting to the partwhere it's like and I kept
saying this to my agent, youknow and then my editor, I was
like I'm real scared about howwe write this ending, because I
don't feel like there's noguarantees in anybody's life.
(21:38):
So I don't feel like I can saylike, and now I have beat this
thing because you will never dothat and so and I'm like it's
jinxy to even think about so youknow, I think about that.
But then I think about likewell, what have I learned?
And like, what is myrelationship with my children
look like in my relationshipwith my husband and my
relationship to myself?
(21:59):
Like those are big things.
And I think you know,ultimately, when you go through
anything like that, you end upsaying like I have one life,
like what am I doing in thislife and how am I spending my
days in the way that, you know,bring me the most fulfillment
and, you know, help me be thevery best version of whatever I
(22:19):
am.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
So and I think that's such a what I hear, because I
haven't really well, I haven'twritten straight memoir.
It's memoir-ish, like there'sstory and my but my stuff is
really more strictly nonfictionto this point.
I think when people are writingmemoir there's often this sense
of can I end Like I'm stilllearning, I'm still figuring out
(22:40):
who I am?
And then there's this fear ofbut what if I publish it?
And then I realize three monthslater that this epiphany I had
on page 74, I disagree with Yep,and you know my guidance is
typically you are where you arewhere you are.
(23:00):
It's always going to beevolving, yeah.
And so you finished the bookwith that knowledge and that
sense of this is where I am now.
How did you decide ultimatelythat?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, that was really hard.
I think I ultimately had toland and this was another thing
I said is I don't want anybodyto think that I'm trying to tell
them what they should do or I'min no place to be like dishing
out life advice to people and solike really, you know, trying
to find that voice or that, youknow ending that feels like it
was worth the journey.
(23:33):
I think is one of the thingsthat's hard in memoir,
especially because you know mybook ended I finished writing it
in 2024 and it's been a ofediting and I've kept living and
all of that.
So I think it was like tryingto find a moment that feels like
emblematic of like somethingbigger.
So it's, you know I ended up,you know, having close, you know
(23:56):
, with scenes of, you know, myhusband and my children and sort
of where we are.
And I think the thing with I wasjoking with another writer
because we are, you know, bothlaunching books and you know
when you're working on memoirs,like you want to say like
congratulations on your book.
Also, I'm so sorry you had tolive through that to get to this
.
So it's this weird place whereI wanted to kind of end with
(24:17):
like this is what my life is andI'm ultimately, like, really
happy with my life.
I still am.
And so I think trying to end itwith like this was the road that
you have to take in order tosort of get here, and mine is
different than yours, isdifferent than anybody else's,
and I hope, as we get older, wecan sort of forgive ourselves of
whatever mistakes we've made orfeelings we've had or, you know
(24:40):
, things we've done, and say,well, if that wouldn't have
happened, then there's thiswhole other domino of things
that wouldn't have happened, andso if you can kind of feel like
, well, where I am, is it aplace that I'm, like in this
moment, content with, then, likethat was sort of what I ended
up working towards.
So, yeah, it is.
It is really hard.
The ending is so scary, and thelonger it takes to finish the
(25:04):
book, the more you're like, ohgosh, do I have to add this?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Do I have to add this , exactly, exactly, and like
you're driving down the road andthen you call your editor and
you're like I think I have toadd in this other story and your
editor is lying and saying,nope, it's been, it's off to
print, it's gone, we're done.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
You do have to say like I'm are you good with
letting this thing go?
And you know you have to.
You know, at some point andthat's the phase it's in right
now is like arcs are going outthere.
You have it like it's out thereand you know learning to live
with, like hey, this thing thatwas like really tiny and
precious to me, and only to me,is now this thing that other
(25:42):
people are engaging with and youjust like really hope that it
does what you hope it does.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Well, and it makes me think actually that you're you
know, we talk so often about themessy middle of writing there's
also the messy middle ofpublishing, where it's done and
it's.
The arcs are traveling and allthat is starting to happen and
you're starting to do press andwhatnot but it's not out yet.
Yeah, and so it's.
I don't.
How does that feel?
(26:08):
Like does that feel?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
how does that feel?
It feels really weird.
It feels strange, I think,because you know, when you're
somebody who's you know drawn towriting, I think that you're
sort of not like trying to putyourself out there all the time,
like you want to sort of likeyou've been very private and
like you're writing somethingthat's a very, you know, a very
curated version of a story.
(26:32):
And so it's this, I think,feeling of like hey guys, this
whole time we've known eachother, I've been like doing this
thing, and that feels weird too.
So I think it's theself-promotion part of it that
is always challenging and I just, you know, to prepare for today
.
I was listening to yourinterview with Emily that you
(26:54):
just had.
Who's like amazing, and so I dothink, you know, trying to
figure out those ways of like,how can I be like true to myself
and true to the story?
And you know, trying to figureout those ways of like, how can
I be like true to myself andtrue to the story?
And, and you know, I would loveto write another book.
So how do I like do this?
Well enough that, like they,the elusive they in the world
will let me keep doing this.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Well, and I'm curious , you know, when you release the
novel because you will, andsurely you'll do it before I do
You'll have to come back ifyou'll be willing and talk about
the difference.
When people have written memoirand fiction, what's so
interesting is to ask them aboutthe promotion difference
between the two, because when inwriting nonfiction and memoir,
(27:41):
it's like you're promotingyourself and you're still
promoting yourself with fictionbecause it's your book.
But sometimes I feel like it'sa little bit easier to lean on,
like I'm promoting my, I'msupporting my characters again,
as though they're people.
It's like, and I'm so good atlike I can hold your book which,
(28:01):
by the way, in love with thiscover, thank you.
In love with this.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
If people are watching it on the we're now on
YouTube, so if you're watchingthis.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Oh, look you have it there too.
We'll show it twice.
You know, I could stand on thecorner with this all day and be
like buy it, buy it, buy it, buyit.
But put me on a corner holdingmy own book and I'll be like so
hey, I know.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I know and I work in the arts, so I'm like always
promoting other artists, likeprograms that are happening, and
it's easy and natural to likecheer for other people and it's
flexing a completely differentmuscle to say, oh hey, like I
did this thing over here, andalso can you, you know, share
(28:46):
your time or your money or yourresources, like you know,
consuming this like it's a big.
It's a big thing, yes, yeah,and it is a completely different
muscle.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I mean, it is a, and I think it's something that we
all just have to sort of leaninto and go at our own pace on
whatever's comfortable.
And, as I always say, trulythere are no shoulds, musts,
need to have to, none of that.
It's just what feels.
If it feels a littleuncomfortable, can you
(29:17):
acknowledge that it feels alittle uncomfortable and just
dip your toe in and see how itfeels and then maybe dip your
toes in and then or maybe say,oh hell, no Right, Like, if it's
, if it's the Arctic icy,whatever, like I'm not, I'm not
a cold plunger, Tiffany, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah.
But then I mean you getmessages from people who say
things like I am going throughsomething so similar or my
daughter's going through this,and you, things like I am going
through something so similar ormy daughter's going through this
, and you're like, oh okay, likeI, this is why I did it.
So I think, like you know, withall art you're looking for that
connection, you want it to, youknow, strike a chord inside
somebody else and have this likeshared human experience.
(29:56):
And so when I tell myself, likeit's for those things and like
try to think of it as likefinding my readers, like who are
they, like it's finding readersnot selling books, so I think
that those are some differentways of doing the same thing,
but like it's the mental framingof it.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yes, as Jen Hansen DePaula, and I love her.
She's an author marketing Idon't even use the word
marketing.
It's like she's a connectionexpert and she's always saying
marketing is just like.
Are you comfortable?
And Emily said the same thingAre you comfortable having
conversations?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
comfortable just making new.
That's really what it is.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It's not sales.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
We're not selling Volvos over here, right, thank
God, right, right, so all right.
Last question I always ask iswhat are you reading or what
have you read recently that youreally loved?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, I'm almost always reading two books, one
fiction and one nonfiction.
It just depends on my mood.
So right now, I'm currentlyreading no One Gets to Fall
Apart by Sarah Labrie.
Have you heard of this?
No, is that nonfiction orfiction?
Yeah, it's a memoir.
It's a story about Sarahdiscovers that her mother has
(31:12):
schizophrenia.
Okay, so she's Sarah's in heradult life, but it feels like
similar in that she's able tolook similar to the book I had
you know finished, in that she'sable to look similar to the
book I finished, in that she'slooking back on her childhood
and it's like all these piecesof her childhood are making
sense as to like, oh, my motherhas this disease and I'm scared
(31:34):
that something will happen in myworld and I will also have it,
and so it's also just reallybeautifully written.
So I'm working on that.
And then I'm reading thePhoenix Pencil Company by Alison
King, which it's Reese's BookClub 2025.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I haven't even heard of it, yeah, so here I'll show
you I have covers for both.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Okay, let's see no one gets to fall apart.
That's a beautiful coverbeautiful cover.
And then the phoenix pencilcompany, allison king.
Yes, I did just see that where.
Yes, so I am.
I'm lucky I work at a library.
The woman who runs our populardepartment keeps me in new books
(32:19):
and she's like you have to readthis one by allison king.
It's like no book I've everread and I started it and I like
I actually can't wait to justkeep reading it.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So I hope to finish it this week.
I feel like it was in like abookshoporg email or something.
I've absolutely seen that coverand for some reason anything,
any book with the word pencil orlibrary in it the Midnight
Library, the anything I'm done,paris Bookshop, little Paris
Bookshop, bookshop, library orBookstore I'm done, so I'll grab
(32:52):
a copy of that for sure.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, so they're both great.
And you know I'm always readingmany things and then I'm also I
have to read.
After the Phoenix PencilCompany the summer we ran, so
you were talking about AudreyIngram and so I'm like, well, I
have that next it's so good, Ijust finished it.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
and I finished it maybe a week or two ago and I
messaged her on Instagrambecause I could not go to sleep.
I had to keep reading.
It was just and it's funnybecause when she was on the show
and I knew about the book and Ihad received the book, I
initially heard or saw thesummer we ran.
I thought it was about runningand I was like I'm going to hate
(33:32):
this because I hate running.
And then when I found out itwas about politics, for some
reason I was in.
I hate politics, but I was inbecause I love the drama behind
it, it is so well done.
You will absolutely love it.
Good, you will absolutely loveit.
Awesome Well thank you forhaving me oh thank you so much,
and I everybody, October 21st,grab a copy of Living Proof.
(33:58):
I'm so excited to keep goingthrough it and I hope we can
stay in touch and do this novelwriting thing.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yes, I'll be your accountability partner.
Thank you, and vice versa.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I need all the help I can get.
Thank you so much.
I am so excited to be joined today by Tiffany
Graham-Czarkowski, whose novelalthough this is really a memoir
, right Memoir Living Proof, isit?
It's not out yet.
No, october 31st, 21st, 21stOkay, I had one number right
October 21st which just feelsit's July for point of reference
(00:20):
.
Where in the world are you,tiffany?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm in just outside Cleveland Ohio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Okay, all right, so you're dealing with some
humidity.
I'm in Phoenix where it feelslike it will never be October.
I was quite delighted to getthis memoir in the mail.
Don't spoil anything for meplease, cause I'm just I've just
broached it.
I think I'm at like chapterfour.
What I love about it so far isand this is me, this is a
(00:50):
subjective thing, so I don'twant anyone listening who's
working on memoir to think thisis the way it has to be your
chapter so far quick, and what Ifind happening for me with that
is I think I'll just readanother chapter and then I get
through it so quickly that I'mlike I'm going to read another
chapter.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I'll read one more, because it's just a couple pages
.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Exactly, and before I know it, it's 2.30 in the
morning and I'm at the end ofthe book.
So, memoir is?
You use the word fascinating somuch I'm trying to find a
substitute word.
I'm not doing a good job, sowe'll just use fascinating for
today.
It's a fascinating genre for meto talk to people about because
(01:31):
, number one, it's notoriouslychallenging to sell.
Yes, and you sold this tolittle.
Is it little a?
I know it's an.
Amazon, yep, and so I'm.
I'd love to ask you about yourprocess there.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
First, yeah, so I think that I had a pretty
untraditional acquisitionprocess, so I'll just start out
with that out the gate.
Um, I got my literary agent,lori Dennison, with Creative
Media Agency.
I got her last spring, sospring of 2024.
And we were going through, wedid two rounds of edits so that
(02:13):
we were kind of deep in thethroes of my second edit last
summer with the intention ofgoing on submission last fall
and Lori called me and saiddon't be mad, I soft pitched
this, your project, to an editorwho lost a memoir for 2025.
So can you work really quicklyto pull your book proposal
(02:37):
together, which I'd submitted aproposal, you know, when I was
querying and she's like just,you know, work on the first 50
pages, just focus on getting thefirst 50 pages as good as you
can get them.
And so I sent those off toSelena at Little A and they
interviewed a couple weeks laterand then a couple months later
(02:57):
I had a book offer.
So it was amazing and it wascrazy because you do see, all
the time memoir is so hard tosell and so I had been sort of
gearing up for this like reallylong process and you know how
would we do that, and it was along process to get to the part
of finding an agent and writingthe book, of course, but
(03:18):
actually moving into thepublication stage has been a
little bit of a whirlwind, inthe best way.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
And I enjoy that because I talk to authors who
say I was working on the bookfor 27 years and then it took me
37 years to find an agent andthen another 47 years, and
obviously I'm being dramatic foreffect.
I love the opposite side ofthat as well and I'm trying to
think right now.
Julie Chavez everyone butmyself.
When I spoke with her aboutthis same thing really fast like
(03:48):
she didn't even necessarilyCorey she actually got her deal
with Zibi Publishing before shehad an agent.
So she went out and got anagent and I enjoy having all
things are possible, right.
So what did you ever consider?
Self-publishing or hybridpublishing, or for you was it
(04:09):
kind of always a?
I want to go traditional, andhere's why.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I think I wanted to see how far I could take it and
sort of where it might land.
So it wasn't like I need tohave this, you know,
traditionally published oranything like that.
But I think I just kept workingand trying and you know,
querying is exhausting.
I think I queried about 60agents over the course of two
(04:36):
years, so it wasn't like aconstant barrage or something,
but sort of noticed like, oh,nobody's biting at this, is it
the query or is it the pages,like so just continually trying
to make both better and so yeah,so I wasn't dead set on you
know either road.
I think I just wanted to seehow how far can I take this
(04:59):
story.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
And then make a decision.
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And I don't have like a ton of money to, you know,
self-publish something.
So I was thinking about that,you know side of things, that
aspect as well.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, how long did it take you to get the draft?
Another reason memoir is sointeresting and it's tricky is
that it can take a while to getthat first draft to the point
where you feel comfortablesharing it with anyone, let
alone quarrying it, because it'sso personal.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, well, it took me.
I started working on this about10-ish years ago and it doesn't
mean I was working on it allday, every day.
It was like I did a first draftin about a year.
That was like so bad that Ididn't know what to do with,
like I was just like I don'teven know what to make of this
material.
And then it was probably, youknow, around the beginning of
(05:49):
the pandemic, when I had nowhereelse to go and nowhere else to
be and I thought, if I can'tlike really carve out a time to
do this now, then when else willI do it?
So I spent maybe two years,about two years, between that
and, like, working on it, thenstarted sending it out and I did
have one lovely agent respondand say the story is.
(06:13):
I think it's a lovely story, Idon't see how I can position it
and I don't see a narrative archere.
And I was like what is anarrative arc?
I don't know what that means.
I don't have an MFA.
So then I had to go back and,like you know, you read all
these craft books and takewriting classes and sort of like
muscled it into a structurethat gave it, like you know the
(06:36):
story arc and so that wasprobably the most helpful
feedback that I got through.
The whole process was like findthe story and then when I was
going through revisions with myagent, she was like ruthless in
saying what is this about?
What is this about?
And it's amazing.
I mean you've written so manybooks like how much you have to
cut away and then how much moreyou add back in in order to make
(06:57):
the book about what it is about.
So there's a lot of stuff youwrite through that feels like
it's critical and then yourealize it's actually not part
of the story.
It was just part of getting tothe story.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
We talk about that all the time.
I talk about that in my writinggroup and with on this podcast,
about how much we're writingour way through and into and out
of the story and into ourunderstanding of the story.
And one of the things that Iask people often when I'm
editing memoir is why does thismatter?
And I am not challenging themas though I'm saying like this
(07:34):
doesn't matter.
I'm legitimately asking whydoes this matter?
Yeah, because sometimes and Ilove it when an author can come
back and say this mattersbecause, and then I go, yeah,
yeah, because sometimes and Ilove it when an author can come
back and say this mattersbecause, and then I go, yeah,
okay, I get that, but that's notcoming through in the words Yep
(07:55):
, and other times an author willsay maybe it doesn't like,
maybe I just needed to vent that.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, it's really interesting and going through
the editorial process which issomething I wish for every
writer I know like find aneditor who can help you answer
those questions of saying whydoes this matter?
Or say this exists in yourbrain, but this isn't showing up
here and I need you to do morework for that.
Like it's just an amazing giftto work with an editor who can
(08:22):
help you do that.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That's another great point.
We have stuff in our brain thatis not on the page.
Everyone, it doesn't matter.
You could have written 80 books, you could be Melissa de la
Cruz with your 80th book comingout in September, and it's in
your brain.
So you think it's on the page.
It's not on the page.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
No, or maybe it's in like an old draft and you cut it
and you're like did I leavethis?
Did I cut it?
Where am I in this story?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yes, I was working on a book yesterday and I had a
note in one chapter that saidsomething I'm paraphrasing.
But remember, back in chapterfour we talked about X and I
messaged the author and I saidwhere the hell is this?
I said it's back in chapterfour.
It's not in chapter four.
Did it get cut Like?
Where is it?
(09:10):
So that happens, we get crazywith version control and where
did it go?
And is it in the parking lot oris it in the trash?
Or when you said that yourfirst draft was I don't remember
your exact words, but not good.
It was some version of not good.
What was it that kept pullingyou back to keep, as opposed to
saying screw this?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Well, I think that if you have a story inside of you
that just doesn't leave you, Ifeel like that your creativity
talks to you and it's like whatare these things that I need to
express?
Or I haven't seen expressed inother ways, and I know that
you're early in my book so Iwon't spoil anything for you.
But I did go through genetictesting and I was sort of
(09:54):
desperate to find books thattalked about this process and
where I was.
And I'm like the kind of personwho, like I want to read a book
about everything.
If I start cooking a new food,I want to go find books on it.
Yeah, I want to read.
I want to read books aboutwhatever, wherever I am in my
life, and I was like I can'tfind the book that I need to
(10:17):
read right now.
And I had a wonderful likegenetic counselor and I have a
wonderful medical team, but Iwas like I don't have anyone to
talk about this with and I don'thave any.
There were, you know, like chatrooms on Facebook and things
like that, but like that feelingthat I think you get from
reading a memoir is like I'm notalone or like our experiences
(10:40):
aren't exactly the same, butlike I have felt that way before
and I'm not crazy for feelingthat way, I'm not a bad person
because this is how I'm feelingin this moment and so for me it
was just like if I can makesomething positive out of this
experience and like help peoplefeel seen in this, like in this
(11:02):
moment.
And I think the other thing islike genetics are always
advancing, like and I have notraining in the world of
genetics, I'm not a geneticist,I'm not a medical professional
but it's this feeling thatthere's all this information out
there, like you can take a swabof your you know saliva, send
it off to the universe, find outyou have family members you
didn't know I did, you did, yeah, find out.
(11:26):
You like carry a geneticcondition that you should be
getting surveyed, like, screenedfor, but there's nothing in
that that says like here's theemotional pathways that you can
follow to sort of, like you know, navigate this experience.
So for me, it was this feelingthat like I was going through
something that I'm certain otherpeople are going through or
(11:47):
have gone through, but I wasn'tfinding that story that I needed
to relate to.
And so I wake up every morning,I have a full-time job.
I have two kids and it was likeit motivated me to wake up out
of bed and I think if you have athing that you're working on
that's like come on, tiffany,come hang out with me, we've got
work to do.
It kind of felt like that.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
That's delightful that you just said that, because
I, as I've made no secret of,and working on my first novel, I
feel like Tiffany, I'm going tobe saying that at episode 672,
like I'm still working on it,I'm still working on my first
novel too, are you really Okay?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So we're going to enjoy this together.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yesterday morning I had a conversation and I want to
come back to a bunch of stuffyou just said but I had a
conversation with someonerecently and I think it was
Audrey Ingram.
I'm not 100 percent sure, iteasily could be her, even if
it's not, because she's justbrilliant.
But she said something aboutsort of becoming one with your
(12:47):
characters and even if you'rewriting memoir, right, you're
becoming sort of one withyourself and with your reader
and why you're doing it.
And I thought yesterday morning, as I was surveying my closet
and all the gray t-shirtsbecause that's all I have are
gray t-shirts I thought, youknow, maybe I'm letting Hallie,
my main character, down becauseI'm not with her every day, and
(13:12):
so maybe that's what will bekind of the motivation.
Maybe I need to sort of feelthis pull of my main character
saying Liz, let's just go havecoffee.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I have a main character in my novel and I love
the feeling of being like I'mgoing to go hang out with my
novel characters for a littlewhile and it's something like
only somebody who writes thatcan know that feeling.
But of like, or you know, Ikind of had to put the novel
away as I was deep in therevisions of this book and I
(13:46):
find myself saying to my maincharacter's name is Gwen, I'm
like I'll be back, I'll be back,Don't go anywhere.
Because I don't know if you'veread the Big Magic by Elizabeth
Gilbert.
She talks about ideas, havingthese, looking for places that
they can land, and she's like Iwrote this book and then Ann
Patchett wrote this book andbecause I wasn't giving it
(14:06):
attention.
And so I find myself liketalking to my characters, where
I'm like I'm coming back for you.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Well, that's the thing is, I'm I'm such a like
recovering people pleaser.
I say recovering, I think, justto make myself feel better, to
people please myself.
But I'm such a recoveringpeople pleaser that I think of
it like this is a real personand she feels left, left alone,
and so I can't do that.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I can't leave this fake real person alone, and so
all right.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So coming back to some stuff that you just said
about memoir writing and helpingpeople feel that they're not
alone and the emotions that areinvolved in genetic discoveries
and such, you know I people aredrawn to books for a variety of
reasons.
I am not drawn to your bookbecause I have a similar
scenario.
(14:54):
I wasn't drawn to Breathtakingby Jesse Fine because I have a
child with.
She had a child who passed acouple of years ago.
There's something that you'reso.
There's the group of people whowill read it because they
identify in some way verydirectly.
Then there are people who willread it because they just want
(15:14):
to know how you navigatedsomething like that and they
will still glean something fromthat.
And one of my very best friends'moms passed of ALS and my
friend was young, I think around17, when that happened, and so
through her I understand thediscomfort, the fear, insert
(15:36):
whatever word anybody wouldchoose of oh my gosh, do I carry
this?
Am I passing this along?
That sort of a thing.
And so just my relationshipwith her even intrigues me to
want to understand more yourjourney, because I have a
feeling that people listening orwatching are thinking well,
what the hell is this book about?
Can you give kind of a?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah.
So my mom died when I was 11.
For most of my adult life Ithought that it was just bad
luck she was dead, it was over.
Now I'm living my life.
We all work really hard whensomebody we love dies, I mean
whether it's a mother, a father,a grandparent, child.
You do a lot of work to figureout how to live in the world
(16:22):
without somebody who you love,and so I think for me, I had
reached this point where I feltlike I have this great life, I
have this husband, I have thisson who I love, I have this job.
And then it was like oh, by theway, like your mom died, it was
bad luck, but like it was morelike a coin toss and, by the way
, like you might have it too.
(16:43):
And so I think the thing that Ireally had to work through was
that.
And so there's a couple ofpieces to this.
One is that like you lose yourchild, your mother.
As a child, it's one type ofloss I felt like suddenly I was
losing her.
As an adult, I was losing, youknow, a different version of my
(17:03):
mother in a different time in mylife, and I had to look at like
, what does that mean for me asa mother?
Like, how am I, what is thelegacy I'm leaving for my
children?
How do I, how do I do this?
And so I hope there's a coupleof layers to that, which is,
like, you know, not everybody isgoing to get genetic testing
(17:24):
and I think that's like my pathinto this.
But like when I read, forexample, cheryl Strayed's story
the Love of my Life, like I havenever been like gutted like I
was when I read that story.
I read, for example, cherylStrayed's story the Love of my
Life, like I have never beenlike gutted like I was when I
read that story.
I read it standing up in aBarnes and Noble the year the
best American essays came out.
I bought it.
I was like other people feelthis, like I cannot keep living,
(17:48):
I'm blowing my life up, like itwas this feeling of like this
is kind of a big deal and like Ithink that, like when you're a
kid, you're sort of just likeI'm just gonna like keep going,
I'm just gonna keep living.
And that can mean a lot ofdifferent things.
It can mean you know you go toget good grades, which was like
the route.
Now's the time, you know,almost 20 years later now,
(18:16):
you're really going to like dealwith this, and so I feel like
that is a universal feeling.
That isn't just about like, oh,and I had my blood drawn and
whatever.
It's more like my world isdifferent, oh, and the whole
world I thought I'd lived isalso different.
So I think that like that sortof for me, where this story is
(18:38):
not just about, like you know,genetic testing which of course
it is but it's sort of like youknow, when you know more about
yourself, how do you build thelife that you want to have, how
do you love the people in yourlife and carve out that space
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Well, and does it?
Did it create for you and I'mcurious if it creates for other
a different lens through whichyou start to look at everything
that has transpired, or manythings that have transpired,
between the time that, when thatthing happened, and today.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Oh, I mean 100%, 100% .
And like I, you know, my momwas 11.
I have two sons.
They're now 16 and one will be13 next week.
My dad was younger than I waswhen this happened, like my dad
was.
My mom was 30 when she passedaway.
My dad was 33.
So I'm 43 now.
(19:32):
Like I'm looking at these things, it's like I can look back in
time and be like this is whatteenage Tiffany was feeling like
at this moment.
But, by the way, like here'sthe age that my dad was and it's
all of a sudden I can startlike forgiving these things.
That like when you're young youdon't understand, but you can
go back with like wisdom andtime and be like, okay, we're
(19:53):
all actually just like humanstrying to do our best with what
we know at that moment and live.
You know our lives, and so Ithink like a hundred percent it
has done that for me.
Like, and I think part of theamazing thing of writing a
memoir is like you are forced tofind the narrative in your life
.
You don't get to just like livein the confusing messiness.
(20:15):
Like, all of a sudden it's likeoh yeah, tiffany, why are you
like that?
And you can kind of see it laidout on the page right in front
of you.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So what did you find to be the narrative arc, that
arc that that delightful agentcalled your attention to?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, so my book's broken down into three parts and
sort of the first part is itgoes forward and backwards in
time.
The scenes alternate between mebeing a child and me being an
adult going through the genetictesting process and then so
that's sort of end of phase.
The end of part one is, likeyou know, you've gone through
(20:55):
the testing and then phase twois sort of you know, the middle
part of the book.
That messy middle part is, likeyou know, 13 years have passed
since I've done that.
Like I've had a couplesurgeries.
Like I have another child.
I had to make some big decisionslike health wise and you know
navigate, you know what are myfamily relationships?
(21:15):
Like Like not everybody in myfamily has this mutation, it's
50 50.
Like I don't have really, youknow, there's a lot of you know
kind of the middle part.
And then getting to the partwhere it's like and I kept
saying this to my agent, youknow and then my editor, I was
like I'm real scared about howwe write this ending, because I
don't feel like there's noguarantees in anybody's life.
(21:38):
So I don't feel like I can saylike, and now I have beat this
thing because you will never dothat and so and I'm like it's
jinxy to even think about so youknow, I think about that.
But then I think about likewell, what have I learned?
And like, what is myrelationship with my children
look like in my relationshipwith my husband and my
relationship to myself?
(21:59):
Like those are big things.
And I think you know,ultimately, when you go through
anything like that, you end upsaying like I have one life,
like what am I doing in thislife and how am I spending my
days in the way that, you know,bring me the most fulfillment
and, you know, help me be thevery best version of whatever I
(22:19):
am.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
So and I think that's such a what I hear, because I
haven't really well, I haven'twritten straight memoir.
It's memoir-ish, like there'sstory and my but my stuff is
really more strictly nonfictionto this point.
I think when people are writingmemoir there's often this sense
of can I end Like I'm stilllearning, I'm still figuring out
(22:40):
who I am?
And then there's this fear ofbut what if I publish it?
And then I realize three monthslater that this epiphany I had
on page 74, I disagree with Yep,and you know my guidance is
typically you are where you arewhere you are.
(23:00):
It's always going to beevolving, yeah.
And so you finished the bookwith that knowledge and that
sense of this is where I am now.
How did you decide ultimatelythat?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, that was really hard.
I think I ultimately had toland and this was another thing
I said is I don't want anybodyto think that I'm trying to tell
them what they should do or I'min no place to be like dishing
out life advice to people and solike really, you know, trying
to find that voice or that, youknow ending that feels like it
was worth the journey.
(23:33):
I think is one of the thingsthat's hard in memoir,
especially because you know mybook ended I finished writing it
in 2024 and it's been a ofediting and I've kept living and
all of that.
So I think it was like tryingto find a moment that feels like
emblematic of like somethingbigger.
So it's, you know I ended up,you know, having close, you know
(23:56):
, with scenes of, you know, myhusband and my children and sort
of where we are.
And I think the thing with I wasjoking with another writer
because we are, you know, bothlaunching books and you know
when you're working on memoirs,like you want to say like
congratulations on your book.
Also, I'm so sorry you had tolive through that to get to this
.
So it's this weird place whereI wanted to kind of end with
(24:17):
like this is what my life is andI'm ultimately, like, really
happy with my life.
I still am.
And so I think trying to end itwith like this was the road that
you have to take in order tosort of get here, and mine is
different than yours, isdifferent than anybody else's,
and I hope, as we get older, wecan sort of forgive ourselves of
whatever mistakes we've made orfeelings we've had or, you know
(24:40):
, things we've done, and say,well, if that wouldn't have
happened, then there's thiswhole other domino of things
that wouldn't have happened, andso if you can kind of feel like
, well, where I am, is it aplace that I'm, like in this
moment, content with, then, likethat was sort of what I ended
up working towards.
So, yeah, it is.
It is really hard.
The ending is so scary, and thelonger it takes to finish the
(25:04):
book, the more you're like, ohgosh, do I have to add this?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Do I have to add this , exactly, exactly, and like
you're driving down the road andthen you call your editor and
you're like I think I have toadd in this other story and your
editor is lying and saying,nope, it's been, it's off to
print, it's gone, we're done.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
You do have to say like I'm are you good with
letting this thing go?
And you know you have to.
You know, at some point andthat's the phase it's in right
now is like arcs are going outthere.
You have it like it's out thereand you know learning to live
with, like hey, this thing thatwas like really tiny and
precious to me, and only to me,is now this thing that other
(25:42):
people are engaging with and youjust like really hope that it
does what you hope it does.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Well, and it makes me think actually that you're you
know, we talk so often about themessy middle of writing there's
also the messy middle ofpublishing, where it's done and
it's.
The arcs are traveling and allthat is starting to happen and
you're starting to do press andwhatnot but it's not out yet.
Yeah, and so it's.
I don't.
How does that feel?
(26:08):
Like does that feel?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
how does that feel?
It feels really weird.
It feels strange, I think,because you know, when you're
somebody who's you know drawn towriting, I think that you're
sort of not like trying to putyourself out there all the time,
like you want to sort of likeyou've been very private and
like you're writing somethingthat's a very, you know, a very
curated version of a story.
(26:32):
And so it's this, I think,feeling of like hey guys, this
whole time we've known eachother, I've been like doing this
thing, and that feels weird too.
So I think it's theself-promotion part of it that
is always challenging and I just, you know, to prepare for today
.
I was listening to yourinterview with Emily that you
(26:54):
just had.
Who's like amazing, and so I dothink, you know, trying to
figure out those ways of like,how can I be like true to myself
and true to the story?
And you know, trying to figureout those ways of like, how can
I be like true to myself andtrue to the story?
And, and you know, I would loveto write another book.
So how do I like do this?
Well enough that, like they,the elusive they in the world
will let me keep doing this.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Well, and I'm curious , you know, when you release the
novel because you will, andsurely you'll do it before I do
You'll have to come back ifyou'll be willing and talk about
the difference.
When people have written memoirand fiction, what's so
interesting is to ask them aboutthe promotion difference
between the two, because when inwriting nonfiction and memoir,
(27:41):
it's like you're promotingyourself and you're still
promoting yourself with fictionbecause it's your book.
But sometimes I feel like it'sa little bit easier to lean on,
like I'm promoting my, I'msupporting my characters again,
as though they're people.
It's like, and I'm so good atlike I can hold your book which,
(28:01):
by the way, in love with thiscover, thank you.
In love with this.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
If people are watching it on the we're now on
YouTube, so if you're watchingthis.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Oh, look you have it there too.
We'll show it twice.
You know, I could stand on thecorner with this all day and be
like buy it, buy it, buy it, buyit.
But put me on a corner holdingmy own book and I'll be like so
hey, I know.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I know and I work in the arts, so I'm like always
promoting other artists, likeprograms that are happening, and
it's easy and natural to likecheer for other people and it's
flexing a completely differentmuscle to say, oh hey, like I
did this thing over here, andalso can you, you know, share
(28:46):
your time or your money or yourresources, like you know,
consuming this like it's a big.
It's a big thing, yes, yeah,and it is a completely different
muscle.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I mean, it is a, and I think it's something that we
all just have to sort of leaninto and go at our own pace on
whatever's comfortable.
And, as I always say, trulythere are no shoulds, musts,
need to have to, none of that.
It's just what feels.
If it feels a littleuncomfortable, can you
(29:17):
acknowledge that it feels alittle uncomfortable and just
dip your toe in and see how itfeels and then maybe dip your
toes in and then or maybe say,oh hell, no Right, Like, if it's
, if it's the Arctic icy,whatever, like I'm not, I'm not
a cold plunger, Tiffany, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah.
But then I mean you getmessages from people who say
things like I am going throughsomething so similar or my
daughter's going through this,and you, things like I am going
through something so similar ormy daughter's going through this
, and you're like, oh okay, likeI, this is why I did it.
So I think, like you know, withall art you're looking for that
connection, you want it to, youknow, strike a chord inside
somebody else and have this likeshared human experience.
(29:56):
And so when I tell myself, likeit's for those things and like
try to think of it as likefinding my readers, like who are
they, like it's finding readersnot selling books, so I think
that those are some differentways of doing the same thing,
but like it's the mental framingof it.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yes, as Jen Hansen DePaula, and I love her.
She's an author marketing Idon't even use the word
marketing.
It's like she's a connectionexpert and she's always saying
marketing is just like.
Are you comfortable?
And Emily said the same thingAre you comfortable having
conversations?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
comfortable just making new.
That's really what it is.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It's not sales.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
We're not selling Volvos over here, right, thank
God, right, right, so all right.
Last question I always ask iswhat are you reading or what
have you read recently that youreally loved?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, I'm almost always reading two books, one
fiction and one nonfiction.
It just depends on my mood.
So right now, I'm currentlyreading no One Gets to Fall
Apart by Sarah Labrie.
Have you heard of this?
No, is that nonfiction orfiction?
Yeah, it's a memoir.
It's a story about Sarahdiscovers that her mother has
(31:12):
schizophrenia.
Okay, so she's Sarah's in heradult life, but it feels like
similar in that she's able tolook similar to the book I had
you know finished, in that she'sable to look similar to the
book I finished, in that she'slooking back on her childhood
and it's like all these piecesof her childhood are making
sense as to like, oh, my motherhas this disease and I'm scared
(31:34):
that something will happen in myworld and I will also have it,
and so it's also just reallybeautifully written.
So I'm working on that.
And then I'm reading thePhoenix Pencil Company by Alison
King, which it's Reese's BookClub 2025.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I haven't even heard of it, yeah, so here I'll show
you I have covers for both.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Okay, let's see no one gets to fall apart.
That's a beautiful coverbeautiful cover.
And then the phoenix pencilcompany, allison king.
Yes, I did just see that where.
Yes, so I am.
I'm lucky I work at a library.
The woman who runs our populardepartment keeps me in new books
(32:19):
and she's like you have to readthis one by allison king.
It's like no book I've everread and I started it and I like
I actually can't wait to justkeep reading it.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So I hope to finish it this week.
I feel like it was in like abookshoporg email or something.
I've absolutely seen that coverand for some reason anything,
any book with the word pencil orlibrary in it the Midnight
Library, the anything I'm done,paris Bookshop, little Paris
Bookshop, bookshop, library orBookstore I'm done, so I'll grab
(32:52):
a copy of that for sure.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, so they're both great.
And you know I'm always readingmany things and then I'm also I
have to read.
After the Phoenix PencilCompany the summer we ran, so
you were talking about AudreyIngram and so I'm like, well, I
have that next it's so good, Ijust finished it.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
and I finished it maybe a week or two ago and I
messaged her on Instagrambecause I could not go to sleep.
I had to keep reading.
It was just and it's funnybecause when she was on the show
and I knew about the book and Ihad received the book, I
initially heard or saw thesummer we ran.
I thought it was about runningand I was like I'm going to hate
(33:32):
this because I hate running.
And then when I found out itwas about politics, for some
reason I was in.
I hate politics, but I was inbecause I love the drama behind
it, it is so well done.
You will absolutely love it.
Good, you will absolutely loveit.
Awesome Well thank you forhaving me oh thank you so much,
and I everybody, October 21st,grab a copy of Living Proof.
(33:58):
I'm so excited to keep goingthrough it and I hope we can
stay in touch and do this novelwriting thing.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yes, I'll be your accountability partner.
Thank you, and vice versa.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I need all the help I can get.
Thank you so much.
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