August 6, 2025 • 30 mins
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Writers dream of the day they’ll hold their finished book, but few warn you about how intense the editing phase can be. In this episode, debut novelist Jill Beissel gets real about the messy, magical process of turning a rough draft into a polished novel readers will love.
Jill’s upcoming book, Glitter and Gold (out October 7!), went through what she calls “color-coded chaos”—a DIY system using highlighters, sticky notes, and sheer persistence to untangle plot issues and deepen character arcs.
She also shares what it’s like to write while raising two young kids and working full-time. Some nights she wrote 500 words, others just 50, but she kept showing up. Her writing sprints, “progress over perfection” mindset, and decision to celebrate any words written (instead of beating herself up for what she didn’t write) are what more of us need to hear.
We talk about dual timelines, beta readers, and why sometimes, the bravest thing a writer can do is shelve a manuscript after 100+ rejections and start fresh.
And if you’re near Phoenix, join her for the launch of Glitter and Gold at Changing Hands Bookstore on October 17. Come for the celebration and stay for the reminder that persistence and patience really do pay off.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everybody and welcome back.
All right.
I am very excited today to havemy friend, jill Beisel, whose
debut novel, glitter and Gold,comes out October 7th, which is
very easy for me to rememberbecause it's my twins' 24th
birthday, even though that isincredibly, that is wild to say.
(00:22):
But, jill, here's my biggestmemory of Jill.
Well, there's two.
Well, I say as though I'm notlooking right at you and I am
here's my biggest memory of you,jill.
There are two.
Number one is and actually theywere both on the same day.
Okay, so we had met to likewrite together.
Yes, because, as everyone nowknows, I am writing this novel
(00:46):
that may never come to fruition.
And so you were one of thefirst people to live in that
hell with me, as I sat there andjust stared at the screen like
what do I do?
What do I do?
What do I do?
What do I do?
And so you had turned me on tothis software.
I think it Plotter.
Is that what it was?
Yeah, right.
Me on to this software.
(01:06):
I think it Plotter, is thatwhat it was?
Yeah, right.
And then I spent the next Idon't know 45 minutes it
probably felt like 10 hours toyou, being like, well, do I do
this?
And then do I like, how do Iuse Plotter correctly?
And then I plotted the wholething in Plotter and I never
opened Plotter again.
Did I ever tell you that?
You did not.
I never opened Plotter again,nope.
But the other thing from thatday that was even more memorable
(01:28):
, that I want to ask you about,because I'm on this editing kick
right now.
Not, I'm on an let's talk aboutediting kick.
That's the kick I'm on Great.
You pulled out this tome, itfelt like, because it was your
novel fully printed.
So how many pages was it fullyprinted?
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I would say probably, you know at least 350.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Right, right, exactly .
And these are eight and a halfby 11.
So, and was it double spaced?
Just so everyone can have itFor my sanity, okay, so double
spaced, or one and a half,whatever Right.
And you pulled this out and youset it on the table and I just
stared at it and I was soexcited and overwhelmed.
I was excited as an editor andI was overwhelmed as an author
(02:15):
because you had it all.
Can we just, can you just talkabout what was going on with
this?
It was, it had just come back.
From what round of edits?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
going on with this.
It had just come back from whatround of edits?
Okay, so I had stunned Liz herewith this giant thick printout
of my manuscript after my devedits.
So it's like you're fixing allthe bones and the scaffolding.
And so I decided to embark on acolor-coded system, which is so
not like me.
Actually.
Really I'm pretty type B, gowith the flow, but with this I
(02:51):
was like this is my first debutnovel, I'm going to do it this
way.
And so I color-coded for wheresections needed character work
or setting or interiority.
Another color was, you know,plot hole, and so I just kind of
it.
It helped me just kind offilter and make sense of
(03:14):
everything, and I kind of didthat advice of bird by bird.
You know, you just go one page,one, post it at a time.
So that's how it works.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Well, the thing and I found myself thinking about
this well, I think about it allthe time when I'm editing, but I
talk about it somewhatregularly the thought I think
for many first-time authors,regardless of genre, is that
it's 95% writing, 5% editing.
And I tend to to reallyencourage and the more I talk to
(03:47):
authors who have been throughthe process because I've been
through the process multipletimes but I want to get other
people's perspective as wellit's really more like 50, 50 if
not 40, 60, meaning 40 writing,60 editing, like there's so much
that happens in the editing andit can take a while.
And I feel like if authorsagain, especially first time,
(04:10):
because once you've done it thenyou know to expect it from that
point, but if our mindset canbe more okay, we're just moving
into phase two, which is as longproblem, maybe as long, because
some people take years andyears and years to write the
book.
But it's as what word would youuse?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Like it's as maybe as layered or, as you know, as
full I'm not quite sure what theword is, but yeah, but do you
know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So it's not just okay , change this word.
Oh, this grammar's off.
Let's add a comma here insteadof a period like, or a semicolon
, let's.
It's not just that simple, andit's certainly not as simple as
well.
I'm just going to hand thisover to my editor and then he or
she is going to tell me notonly tell me what's wrong, but
(05:07):
tell me what to do.
And sometimes the assumption isand do it for me, right?
So that is not the case at all,not the case.
So when you got your dev editsback, how did you receive those?
Was it Right?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So it's like quite a lengthy, you know response.
That's extremely helpful, but Ithink there's that
misconception that they're goingto tell you how to fix it, and
that is certainly not the case,and I think that's that's a good
thing, because then it's youknow it's still coming from you.
They're not planting thoseseeds of oh yeah, I should go in
this particular direction.
You know you're still comingfrom you.
They're not planting thoseseeds of oh yeah, I should go in
this particular direction.
You know you're still.
They're posing the questions.
(05:50):
They're maybe having a coupleyou know suggestions, but it's a
lot less prescriptive than Ihad expected and so it's more
just directional and it's like,okay, let's see what you do with
this.
And it directional and it'slike, okay, let's see what you
do with this.
And it was like a 10-pageletter so to speak.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So it was a step.
Was it chapter by chapter orwas it kind of overall?
Here are my moments of what thehell?
Essentially, how did youreditor lay it out.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I would say it was the latter.
It was more overarching.
You know, maybe there was aspecific scene or two that asked
for like hey, maybe take thisin a different direction or
finesse that.
But yeah, more overarching,yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
More overarching.
So when you got it all back andyou opened it in, I assume
email yes.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
What was your initial reaction?
But I highly encourage writersto just sit with it.
Sit with it a couple days aweek, whatever you need to kind
of get over that initial shock,that initial.
You know writers, we havetender hearts, sink in and know
(07:21):
that it's not personal and Ithink some of my background.
I'm good at taking feedback.
I've developed a thick skin inthe different creative
professions I've had over theyears.
But I would absolutelyrecommend just sit with it and
then you go back and you kind oftake a deep breath and you're
like okay, we're going to tacklethis one by one.
(07:44):
Take a deep breath and you'relike okay, we're going to tackle
this one by one.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah Well, and I think that's such a great piece
of advice and it's one that I'vehad for years when I'm working
with people is read, maybe readthrough the editorial summary,
have a look at the manuscript ifthat's also marked up at all
and then shut it down for 24, 48, 72, 96, whatever hours.
Um, I have one author I'mworking with right now and I
(08:09):
sent the edits back to her andthen she said I'm leaving for
two weeks on vacation and I saidawesome, that is perfect, Like
read, read my questions and mythoughts and then, over the
vacation, without any pressure,just let that kind of sink in.
Did you feel at all defensive?
(08:31):
Were there moments when youread the feedback and you felt
defensive?
How did you open yourself up to?
You know, we're in partnershipis kind of.
What I think is so importantabout editing is that your goal
and your editor's goal isideally the same, which is just
to make the book better.
Were there any areas where youfelt like you had to push back?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
You know, what I don't think in the initial
developmental feedback I feltdefensive in any way.
I felt like, okay, they knowwhat they're doing, they know
the market and any little youknow.
Feelings that might have comeup were more hey, if something
you know in the inline commentsdoesn't feel right, then you
(09:29):
know you respond back and youhave just kind of a conversation
about it and you kind of defendwhat you're feeling about it.
But I would say there were veryfew of those places.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
So so can we talk about the writing process?
Absolutely, because this is abig book, yes, and it's your
first one.
So what is your unique processfor writing?
I remember the last time wherewere we Daydreamer, I think in
downtown, and I was like do youwrite every day?
(10:04):
How many minutes it's reallyswitching from nonfiction to
fiction.
I might as well just bestarting all over.
I feel like this is acompletely different experience.
So what is, what was yourprocess?
Or what is it like?
How did it evolve?
Did it evolve over?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes, absolutely.
My process, I would say, isdefinitely not the same now as
it was when I wrote Glitter andGold.
For Glitter and Gold, you know,I was working full time and
parent to two little kids, andso I would find hours after they
went to bed maybe 8 to 10, andI'm falling asleep on my laptop
(10:46):
and just trying to not be superhard on myself, give myself
grace if it was just twice aweek like that and then kind of
building up the habits here andthere.
I think I did read the Save theCat.
I definitely did some notecards with kind of drafting out.
(11:08):
Just I'm not necessarily aplotter, but I kind of wanted to
know where I was going with it.
I like to.
The pantser part of me is thatI'll deviate from that path
quite a few times.
Yeah, so I would say that wasthe initial place, because if I
was going to be hard on myselffor skipping a day or two, then
(11:33):
I know I would just not open itor not finish.
And this is an evolution in theprocess and what works for me.
And I even had a friendintroduce me to writing sprints.
I don't do, or I never did,nanowrimo, but I dropped in on
(11:56):
one of their writing sprints.
That was a local group here andit was so great because it kind
of also helped me let go of,you know, any sort of writing
imperfections, because I in mybackground I tend to want to
edit and everything, so edit asI go.
So that was great and so I wasable to get bigger chunks done.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And then I do writing sprints with my critique group
as well, so okay, yeah, well,and I so really interesting and
good point about your, yourprofession, because it's often
so challenging.
Was it copywriting?
Is that what you were doing for?
Okay, for a major nationalcorporation?
And it's interesting whenpeople have a writing profession
(12:43):
.
So journalism, copywriting,editing anything in that milieu.
My God, did I just use the wordmilieu?
Did I use it correctly?
I think you did.
I don't know.
We're going to look that uplater.
Anyway, I don't know where itcame from.
It just came to me to switchinto the writing mode because
you have to turn off thatediting, whatever that part of
(13:08):
your brain is.
That is, see, I can think ofmilieu, but I cannot think of
the word that I'm trying tothink of.
What is the word Jill, whereyou're assessing your Analytical
Thank you.
What is happening?
Turn off your analytical brainand be able to.
So did you find that?
That was a challenge?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I would say yeah, it's definitely a challenge that
I, because in my professionthere would be like 10 different
stakeholders who would all havean opinion about something that
I wrote, and so I found myselfneeding to kind of get in touch
with my inner stakeholder orapprover and be like no, it's
(13:52):
not, you know, it doesn't matterwhat anyone else thinks at this
stage it's like just moveforward with it and you can fix
it.
Doesn't matter what anyone elsethinks.
At this stage it's like justmove forward with it and you can
fix it later.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So yeah, so I'm curious, and this is just full
honesty, and maybe it's becauseI'm, you know, my kids are older
and I'm looking for any excuseto go to bed and turn on Netflix
because I didn't have it for solong.
I feel like, because I didn'thave it for so long, I feel like
.
But when that 8 to 10 pm timehits and you say, okay, this is
(14:28):
my time because the kids are nowin bed, what was it about
getting the book done before?
You had a deal that compelledyou on some nights to say,
tonight I'm going to write asopposed to I'm going to bed, I'm
turning on couples therapy, I'm, you know, whatever.
That's clearly right now myobsession.
But what was that pull for you,that pull for?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
me.
I think it, you know, as maybecheesy as it sounds, I, you know
, I'd always wanted to be awriter since I was a little kid
and you know, it was kind oflike, okay, let's get back in
touch with that.
And also there was a sense ofyou know, cause I started during
COVID.
So there was that sense ofescapism and feeling normal.
(15:13):
But I really just, I don't know.
The story just stuck in my headand I was like, well, it's just
going to bother me if I don'twrite it.
You know, I just I would holdonto that feeling of how I felt
each time when I sat at thecomputer and then, even if I got
maybe 50 words down, or maybeif I got a session with 500, it
(15:39):
just felt so good to get thatmuch farther.
So it was chasing that feelingtoo.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So was there any portion of thebook that was, just, for lack
of a better word, hard?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yes, absolutely.
So I did at one point hire adevelopmental editor even before
I got that like developmentalfeedback from my publisher and
God.
So I was like, okay, sure, I'dlove to do this for my first.
(16:25):
Yes, yeah.
So she laid out really greatreasons that helped just
contextualize the relationshipsof the characters, and so I felt
like it was a good direction.
I was like, all right, you know, just pull my hair back and be
like, okay, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
So yeah, so that was.
So were you taking the originalmaterial and converting it into
dual timelines, or?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yes, so there was just a single timeline and so
she suggested going back andadding how these, how this kind
of relationship with thesecharacters kind of came to be,
in order to kind of enhance thatpart with the big adventure.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
So cause I?
I don't have it yet, obviouslycause it's not out yet.
Um, and you ran out of arcs,but the so does it go?
Present past, present past,present past, or how do?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
you okay?
Yes, for the most part, I wouldsay for the first, at least for
the first half.
And you know, there might be acouple of ones that have a past
past or a present present, butfor most, for the most part, it
rotates.
And then we do just presenttimeline to take it to the next
(17:38):
Okay, question, like, I guess,craft question about present
past.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
How did you work with keeping the pacing going?
Sometimes, when I'm watching onTV, of course, something that's
going present past present pastFor me, subjectively right the
pacing is off sometimes becauseI'm like, oh my God, I don't
want to go.
I actually am realizing latelyand in this moment that I don't
(18:04):
prefer stories that start at thepresent, like someone dying or
dead, if we're talking about amurder mystery type thing, a
thriller, and then they go threeyears ago and they take you all
the way back because I alreadyknow the person has died.
So it's like I don't really,but again, that's.
(18:26):
That's not saying that that'sgood, bad, right or wrong.
That's just my preference as a,as a you know, I guess a
watcher, but as a reader, I'mtrying to think of the last book
that I read that was dualtimeline.
How did you handle that to makesure that it didn't feel?
Were there any moments whereyou felt like, oh God, now I got
to go backward again?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, you do have to kind of find like those action
moments and you know, havesomething.
You know, in my case that wasvery action and suspense
oriented in both timelines inorder to keep the reader going.
And I would say also in termsof pacing, I'm always just
(19:08):
looking for okay, I want to tryto answer a question and then
plant a new question to makethem keep going.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, it's kind of that like you have a problem,
then you have a solution, andthen you have another problem,
and then you have anothersolution, and so it just keeps
the pacing and the trajectorymoving forward without did you
know how it ended from early on.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I did know how it ended and I I'd say, for the
most part I tend to know, like,where I want to get.
I just don't know always howI'm going to get there.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
But yes, okay, do you get there through writing it?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
experiment like okay, well, what if I write it this
way?
And then I kind of try to poseto myself another question and
kind of do in my head andsometimes write the choose your
own adventure, Somebody elsesaid that, and I can't remember
who, because I was thinking, ohmy gosh, I think we talked about
this.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
But now I'm thinking it wasn't you and I who talked
about it.
It was I'll have to go back andlook, but it was a few episodes
ago and she said that someonehad made that suggestion to her,
like just write it both waysand see.
My initial response was thatfeels like a lot of extra work,
which it's so funny to putmyself in both roles, because as
(20:35):
an editor, I'm like okay, yeah,that's a little extra, and as
an author, I'm like I don't wantto.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, you know it is hard to kind of get over that
mental block.
Oh, this is so much extra work.
But I think you know my firstbook that I wrote and I queried
probably a hundred times and it,you know, got some great
feedback but never went anywhere.
Although I never regret doingthat work, it was, I call it,
(21:05):
like my own DIY MFA.
So I think that it all helpsinform how you, how you create,
how you brainstorm.
I think it all, none of it iswasted.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So yeah, right.
So where is that book now?
Did you just find?
How did you determine or decide?
Okay, it's, I'm going to justdo something different.
I'm going to put this aside.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, it was hard.
It's, you know, tucked in adrawer and in a file on my
computer and I don't know ifit'll ever see the light of day.
I would definitely.
There's so much I would dodifferent with that particular
story.
But I, you know, I queriedprobably a hundred or close to,
(21:51):
or a little over that manyagents.
I got some full requests, I gotseveral partials, but it just
wasn't what the market wantedand I was.
I wanted to distract myself andI reminded myself you know,
it's about, it's about thejourney.
You love this.
So let's just keep going, let'smove on and do something
(22:15):
different.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
There we go, yeah.
So what are you working on now?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So I just got all of the beta feedback in from my
second one that I'm working on,which is kind of a big little
lies meets bad sisters on a roadtrip.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I love it.
How do you do beta readers Talkto me about your beta reader
process.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Well, this one was very informal and I asked my
Instagram friends hey, anyonewant to beta read?
And the writing community is sogenerous and lovely and
sometimes some unexpectedfriendly faces from my past were
like hey, you know.
(23:03):
So I picked a couple of peoplewho were interested, and then
also writers that I knew, and so, yeah, I've got a lot of great
feedback to dive into for thefall on that second one.
And then, while I was waitingfor beta feedback, I started
another crazy idea Just drafting, because when you've got the
(23:27):
creative flow going, you want tojust yeah, you don't want to
stop, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
How many beta readers did you have, or do you have?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Probably too many, okay, so give me a number.
I would say there was likemaybe seven, oh, okay, you know
why do you feel like it's toomany?
I think because after I did it,I read somewhere probably four
or something, five yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yes.
So for some reason I wasexpecting you to say like 20.
Oh, that's why I said oh whenyou said seven.
But I can see if you get sevendifferent.
And do you prompt them withquestions?
I do, or do you just?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
okay, yes, I kind of give them like general
overarching and I never want itto feel daunting for a beta
reader to like answer a bunch ofthings or do inline comments.
A lot of them justautomatically do, which I was so
grateful and felt so lucky thatthey did that.
But yeah, so I gave them like abulleted list of questions to
(24:31):
kind of help with, like doesanything, is the pacing good?
Does any character feel likenot believable, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Did you color code the responses?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I might.
You know I still have to.
It's like I have all thefeedback and now I need to
figure out a way to synthesizeit all and have figure out what
the common threads are, whichI'm seeing some which is kind of
what you want, like, okay, youknow, if half of them said this,
then I need to take a closerlook at this particular area
(25:05):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Exactly what are you excited about when it comes to
the launching and the marketingof Glitter and Gold?
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Well, marketing, it's so funny.
I've worked in marketing butI'm like ugh, marketing, I just
want to write.
So you know I love, but I lovedoing stuff like this, like
talking to people about bookswho want to talk about books.
It makes me excited.
I let's see.
(25:33):
What am I looking forward to?
Just kind of having that likekind of a tour, or like doing a
tour.
I'm reaching out like locallyand you know the book takes
place in arizona, so I'd like tohit the you know arizona indie
bookstores and everything yeah,when's changing hand?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
you said the 17th yes at changing hands.
Is that in the tempe or thephoenix?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Phoenix location.
Okay, it's October 17th, soyeah, I'm excited about that.
And just talking to whoeverwould love to talk about books
and writing and craft, yeah, Ithink that's the most exciting
and connecting with readers andother writers.
So last question I always askwhat are you reading right now,
are you?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
reading anything right now?
Are you writing everythingRight?
Trying last question, I alwaysask what are you?
What are you reading right now?
Are you reading anything rightnow?
Are you writing everything?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Trying to read.
I know I wish there were morehours in the day for it.
Um, I I'm kind of I'm so behindon my TBR and I'm a mood reader
, so I finally wait.
What does?
Speaker 1 (26:37):
that mean A mood reader to you.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I'm like you know if you're in the romance or I feel
like, oh okay, yeah.
So I um, yeah, a couple ofyears behind I'm reading the
invisible life of Addie LaRue,Finally, yes, so beautiful,
well-written, just incredible.
So I'm sure most people are, um, have already caught up to that
(27:03):
.
I'm kind of behind.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I haven't, so I'll just add that you said my years
long.
It's true.
I feel like I'm years behind insome cases, I know.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
And sometimes you're just kind of challenging, pluck
it out and like, okay, I'm goingto read this and then I also
kind of something.
And then I also kind ofsomething I try to like push
myself out of my comfort zone abit and I started the on audio
Women who Run With Wolves Ithink it's called by Dr Clarissa
(27:32):
Pinkola Estes.
Yes, and it's just a reallyfascinating the way she uses
storytelling from like myths andtale to kind of get into the
psychology of, you know, women,modern culture.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
So are you usually reading more than one at once or
are you a one at a time reader?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I would say I I usually have like a physical
book and then audio because youknow, just being busy and
wanting to multitask and readall the things and absorb all
the things you know.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
so yeah, and then again, with not enough hours in
the day Exactly so or days inthe year, my God, even though
the days right now us both beingin Arizona feel like they are
interminable.
It's weather is not okay.
Well, thank you so much forjoining and I will put all of
your info in the episode notes,as I always do.
(28:30):
I cannot wait for October 7thand the 17th because, thankfully
, I'm local, so I will be thereat Changing Hands and thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Hi everybody and welcome back.
All right.
I am very excited today to havemy friend, jill Beisel, whose
debut novel, glitter and Gold,comes out October 7th, which is
very easy for me to rememberbecause it's my twins' 24th
birthday, even though that isincredibly, that is wild to say.
(00:22):
But, jill, here's my biggestmemory of Jill.
Well, there's two.
Well, I say as though I'm notlooking right at you and I am
here's my biggest memory of you,jill.
There are two.
Number one is and actually theywere both on the same day.
Okay, so we had met to likewrite together.
Yes, because, as everyone nowknows, I am writing this novel
(00:46):
that may never come to fruition.
And so you were one of thefirst people to live in that
hell with me, as I sat there andjust stared at the screen like
what do I do?
What do I do?
What do I do?
What do I do?
And so you had turned me on tothis software.
I think it Plotter.
Is that what it was?
Yeah, right.
Me on to this software.
(01:06):
I think it Plotter, is thatwhat it was?
Yeah, right.
And then I spent the next Idon't know 45 minutes it
probably felt like 10 hours toyou, being like, well, do I do
this?
And then do I like, how do Iuse Plotter correctly?
And then I plotted the wholething in Plotter and I never
opened Plotter again.
Did I ever tell you that?
You did not.
I never opened Plotter again,nope.
But the other thing from thatday that was even more memorable
(01:28):
, that I want to ask you about,because I'm on this editing kick
right now.
Not, I'm on an let's talk aboutediting kick.
That's the kick I'm on Great.
You pulled out this tome, itfelt like, because it was your
novel fully printed.
So how many pages was it fullyprinted?
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I would say probably, you know at least 350.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Right, right, exactly .
And these are eight and a halfby 11.
So, and was it double spaced?
Just so everyone can have itFor my sanity, okay, so double
spaced, or one and a half,whatever Right.
And you pulled this out and youset it on the table and I just
stared at it and I was soexcited and overwhelmed.
I was excited as an editor andI was overwhelmed as an author
(02:15):
because you had it all.
Can we just, can you just talkabout what was going on with
this?
It was, it had just come back.
From what round of edits?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
going on with this.
It had just come back from whatround of edits?
Okay, so I had stunned Liz herewith this giant thick printout
of my manuscript after my devedits.
So it's like you're fixing allthe bones and the scaffolding.
And so I decided to embark on acolor-coded system, which is so
not like me.
Actually.
Really I'm pretty type B, gowith the flow, but with this I
(02:51):
was like this is my first debutnovel, I'm going to do it this
way.
And so I color-coded for wheresections needed character work
or setting or interiority.
Another color was, you know,plot hole, and so I just kind of
it.
It helped me just kind offilter and make sense of
(03:14):
everything, and I kind of didthat advice of bird by bird.
You know, you just go one page,one, post it at a time.
So that's how it works.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Well, the thing and I found myself thinking about
this well, I think about it allthe time when I'm editing, but I
talk about it somewhatregularly the thought I think
for many first-time authors,regardless of genre, is that
it's 95% writing, 5% editing.
And I tend to to reallyencourage and the more I talk to
(03:47):
authors who have been throughthe process because I've been
through the process multipletimes but I want to get other
people's perspective as wellit's really more like 50, 50 if
not 40, 60, meaning 40 writing,60 editing, like there's so much
that happens in the editing andit can take a while.
And I feel like if authorsagain, especially first time,
(04:10):
because once you've done it thenyou know to expect it from that
point, but if our mindset canbe more okay, we're just moving
into phase two, which is as longproblem, maybe as long, because
some people take years andyears and years to write the
book.
But it's as what word would youuse?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Like it's as maybe as layered or, as you know, as
full I'm not quite sure what theword is, but yeah, but do you
know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So it's not just okay , change this word.
Oh, this grammar's off.
Let's add a comma here insteadof a period like, or a semicolon
, let's.
It's not just that simple, andit's certainly not as simple as
well.
I'm just going to hand thisover to my editor and then he or
she is going to tell me notonly tell me what's wrong, but
(05:07):
tell me what to do.
And sometimes the assumption isand do it for me, right?
So that is not the case at all,not the case.
So when you got your dev editsback, how did you receive those?
Was it Right?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So it's like quite a lengthy, you know response.
That's extremely helpful, but Ithink there's that
misconception that they're goingto tell you how to fix it, and
that is certainly not the case,and I think that's that's a good
thing, because then it's youknow it's still coming from you.
They're not planting thoseseeds of oh yeah, I should go in
this particular direction.
You know you're still comingfrom you.
They're not planting thoseseeds of oh yeah, I should go in
this particular direction.
You know you're still.
They're posing the questions.
(05:50):
They're maybe having a coupleyou know suggestions, but it's a
lot less prescriptive than Ihad expected and so it's more
just directional and it's like,okay, let's see what you do with
this.
And it directional and it'slike, okay, let's see what you
do with this.
And it was like a 10-pageletter so to speak.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So it was a step.
Was it chapter by chapter orwas it kind of overall?
Here are my moments of what thehell?
Essentially, how did youreditor lay it out.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I would say it was the latter.
It was more overarching.
You know, maybe there was aspecific scene or two that asked
for like hey, maybe take thisin a different direction or
finesse that.
But yeah, more overarching,yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
More overarching.
So when you got it all back andyou opened it in, I assume
email yes.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
What was your initial reaction?
But I highly encourage writersto just sit with it.
Sit with it a couple days aweek, whatever you need to kind
of get over that initial shock,that initial.
You know writers, we havetender hearts, sink in and know
(07:21):
that it's not personal and Ithink some of my background.
I'm good at taking feedback.
I've developed a thick skin inthe different creative
professions I've had over theyears.
But I would absolutelyrecommend just sit with it and
then you go back and you kind oftake a deep breath and you're
like okay, we're going to tacklethis one by one.
(07:44):
Take a deep breath and you'relike okay, we're going to tackle
this one by one.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah Well, and I think that's such a great piece
of advice and it's one that I'vehad for years when I'm working
with people is read, maybe readthrough the editorial summary,
have a look at the manuscript ifthat's also marked up at all
and then shut it down for 24, 48, 72, 96, whatever hours.
Um, I have one author I'mworking with right now and I
(08:09):
sent the edits back to her andthen she said I'm leaving for
two weeks on vacation and I saidawesome, that is perfect, Like
read, read my questions and mythoughts and then, over the
vacation, without any pressure,just let that kind of sink in.
Did you feel at all defensive?
(08:31):
Were there moments when youread the feedback and you felt
defensive?
How did you open yourself up to?
You know, we're in partnershipis kind of.
What I think is so importantabout editing is that your goal
and your editor's goal isideally the same, which is just
to make the book better.
Were there any areas where youfelt like you had to push back?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
You know, what I don't think in the initial
developmental feedback I feltdefensive in any way.
I felt like, okay, they knowwhat they're doing, they know
the market and any little youknow.
Feelings that might have comeup were more hey, if something
you know in the inline commentsdoesn't feel right, then you
(09:29):
know you respond back and youhave just kind of a conversation
about it and you kind of defendwhat you're feeling about it.
But I would say there were veryfew of those places.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
So so can we talk about the writing process?
Absolutely, because this is abig book, yes, and it's your
first one.
So what is your unique processfor writing?
I remember the last time wherewere we Daydreamer, I think in
downtown, and I was like do youwrite every day?
(10:04):
How many minutes it's reallyswitching from nonfiction to
fiction.
I might as well just bestarting all over.
I feel like this is acompletely different experience.
So what is, what was yourprocess?
Or what is it like?
How did it evolve?
Did it evolve over?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes, absolutely.
My process, I would say, isdefinitely not the same now as
it was when I wrote Glitter andGold.
For Glitter and Gold, you know,I was working full time and
parent to two little kids, andso I would find hours after they
went to bed maybe 8 to 10, andI'm falling asleep on my laptop
(10:46):
and just trying to not be superhard on myself, give myself
grace if it was just twice aweek like that and then kind of
building up the habits here andthere.
I think I did read the Save theCat.
I definitely did some notecards with kind of drafting out.
(11:08):
Just I'm not necessarily aplotter, but I kind of wanted to
know where I was going with it.
I like to.
The pantser part of me is thatI'll deviate from that path
quite a few times.
Yeah, so I would say that wasthe initial place, because if I
was going to be hard on myselffor skipping a day or two, then
(11:33):
I know I would just not open itor not finish.
And this is an evolution in theprocess and what works for me.
And I even had a friendintroduce me to writing sprints.
I don't do, or I never did,nanowrimo, but I dropped in on
(11:56):
one of their writing sprints.
That was a local group here andit was so great because it kind
of also helped me let go of,you know, any sort of writing
imperfections, because I in mybackground I tend to want to
edit and everything, so edit asI go.
So that was great and so I wasable to get bigger chunks done.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And then I do writing sprints with my critique group
as well, so okay, yeah, well,and I so really interesting and
good point about your, yourprofession, because it's often
so challenging.
Was it copywriting?
Is that what you were doing for?
Okay, for a major nationalcorporation?
And it's interesting whenpeople have a writing profession
(12:43):
.
So journalism, copywriting,editing anything in that milieu.
My God, did I just use the wordmilieu?
Did I use it correctly?
I think you did.
I don't know.
We're going to look that uplater.
Anyway, I don't know where itcame from.
It just came to me to switchinto the writing mode because
you have to turn off thatediting, whatever that part of
(13:08):
your brain is.
That is, see, I can think ofmilieu, but I cannot think of
the word that I'm trying tothink of.
What is the word Jill, whereyou're assessing your Analytical
Thank you.
What is happening?
Turn off your analytical brainand be able to.
So did you find that?
That was a challenge?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I would say yeah, it's definitely a challenge that
I, because in my professionthere would be like 10 different
stakeholders who would all havean opinion about something that
I wrote, and so I found myselfneeding to kind of get in touch
with my inner stakeholder orapprover and be like no, it's
(13:52):
not, you know, it doesn't matterwhat anyone else thinks at this
stage it's like just moveforward with it and you can fix
it.
Doesn't matter what anyone elsethinks.
At this stage it's like justmove forward with it and you can
fix it later.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So yeah, so I'm curious, and this is just full
honesty, and maybe it's becauseI'm, you know, my kids are older
and I'm looking for any excuseto go to bed and turn on Netflix
because I didn't have it for solong.
I feel like, because I didn'thave it for so long, I feel like
.
But when that 8 to 10 pm timehits and you say, okay, this is
(14:28):
my time because the kids are nowin bed, what was it about
getting the book done before?
You had a deal that compelledyou on some nights to say,
tonight I'm going to write asopposed to I'm going to bed, I'm
turning on couples therapy, I'm, you know, whatever.
That's clearly right now myobsession.
But what was that pull for you,that pull for?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
me.
I think it, you know, as maybecheesy as it sounds, I, you know
, I'd always wanted to be awriter since I was a little kid
and you know, it was kind oflike, okay, let's get back in
touch with that.
And also there was a sense ofyou know, cause I started during
COVID.
So there was that sense ofescapism and feeling normal.
(15:13):
But I really just, I don't know.
The story just stuck in my headand I was like, well, it's just
going to bother me if I don'twrite it.
You know, I just I would holdonto that feeling of how I felt
each time when I sat at thecomputer and then, even if I got
maybe 50 words down, or maybeif I got a session with 500, it
(15:39):
just felt so good to get thatmuch farther.
So it was chasing that feelingtoo.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So was there any portion of thebook that was, just, for lack
of a better word, hard?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yes, absolutely.
So I did at one point hire adevelopmental editor even before
I got that like developmentalfeedback from my publisher and
God.
So I was like, okay, sure, I'dlove to do this for my first.
(16:25):
Yes, yeah.
So she laid out really greatreasons that helped just
contextualize the relationshipsof the characters, and so I felt
like it was a good direction.
I was like, all right, you know, just pull my hair back and be
like, okay, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
So yeah, so that was.
So were you taking the originalmaterial and converting it into
dual timelines, or?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yes, so there was just a single timeline and so
she suggested going back andadding how these, how this kind
of relationship with thesecharacters kind of came to be,
in order to kind of enhance thatpart with the big adventure.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
So cause I?
I don't have it yet, obviouslycause it's not out yet.
Um, and you ran out of arcs,but the so does it go?
Present past, present past,present past, or how do?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
you okay?
Yes, for the most part, I wouldsay for the first, at least for
the first half.
And you know, there might be acouple of ones that have a past
past or a present present, butfor most, for the most part, it
rotates.
And then we do just presenttimeline to take it to the next
(17:38):
Okay, question, like, I guess,craft question about present
past.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
How did you work with keeping the pacing going?
Sometimes, when I'm watching onTV, of course, something that's
going present past present pastFor me, subjectively right the
pacing is off sometimes becauseI'm like, oh my God, I don't
want to go.
I actually am realizing latelyand in this moment that I don't
(18:04):
prefer stories that start at thepresent, like someone dying or
dead, if we're talking about amurder mystery type thing, a
thriller, and then they go threeyears ago and they take you all
the way back because I alreadyknow the person has died.
So it's like I don't really,but again, that's.
(18:26):
That's not saying that that'sgood, bad, right or wrong.
That's just my preference as a,as a you know, I guess a
watcher, but as a reader, I'mtrying to think of the last book
that I read that was dualtimeline.
How did you handle that to makesure that it didn't feel?
Were there any moments whereyou felt like, oh God, now I got
to go backward again?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, you do have to kind of find like those action
moments and you know, havesomething.
You know, in my case that wasvery action and suspense
oriented in both timelines inorder to keep the reader going.
And I would say also in termsof pacing, I'm always just
(19:08):
looking for okay, I want to tryto answer a question and then
plant a new question to makethem keep going.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, it's kind of that like you have a problem,
then you have a solution, andthen you have another problem,
and then you have anothersolution, and so it just keeps
the pacing and the trajectorymoving forward without did you
know how it ended from early on.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I did know how it ended and I I'd say, for the
most part I tend to know, like,where I want to get.
I just don't know always howI'm going to get there.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
But yes, okay, do you get there through writing it?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
experiment like okay, well, what if I write it this
way?
And then I kind of try to poseto myself another question and
kind of do in my head andsometimes write the choose your
own adventure, Somebody elsesaid that, and I can't remember
who, because I was thinking, ohmy gosh, I think we talked about
this.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
But now I'm thinking it wasn't you and I who talked
about it.
It was I'll have to go back andlook, but it was a few episodes
ago and she said that someonehad made that suggestion to her,
like just write it both waysand see.
My initial response was thatfeels like a lot of extra work,
which it's so funny to putmyself in both roles, because as
(20:35):
an editor, I'm like okay, yeah,that's a little extra, and as
an author, I'm like I don't wantto.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, you know it is hard to kind of get over that
mental block.
Oh, this is so much extra work.
But I think you know my firstbook that I wrote and I queried
probably a hundred times and it,you know, got some great
feedback but never went anywhere.
Although I never regret doingthat work, it was, I call it,
(21:05):
like my own DIY MFA.
So I think that it all helpsinform how you, how you create,
how you brainstorm.
I think it all, none of it iswasted.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So yeah, right.
So where is that book now?
Did you just find?
How did you determine or decide?
Okay, it's, I'm going to justdo something different.
I'm going to put this aside.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, it was hard.
It's, you know, tucked in adrawer and in a file on my
computer and I don't know ifit'll ever see the light of day.
I would definitely.
There's so much I would dodifferent with that particular
story.
But I, you know, I queriedprobably a hundred or close to,
(21:51):
or a little over that manyagents.
I got some full requests, I gotseveral partials, but it just
wasn't what the market wantedand I was.
I wanted to distract myself andI reminded myself you know,
it's about, it's about thejourney.
You love this.
So let's just keep going, let'smove on and do something
(22:15):
different.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
There we go, yeah.
So what are you working on now?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So I just got all of the beta feedback in from my
second one that I'm working on,which is kind of a big little
lies meets bad sisters on a roadtrip.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I love it.
How do you do beta readers Talkto me about your beta reader
process.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Well, this one was very informal and I asked my
Instagram friends hey, anyonewant to beta read?
And the writing community is sogenerous and lovely and
sometimes some unexpectedfriendly faces from my past were
like hey, you know.
(23:03):
So I picked a couple of peoplewho were interested, and then
also writers that I knew, and so, yeah, I've got a lot of great
feedback to dive into for thefall on that second one.
And then, while I was waitingfor beta feedback, I started
another crazy idea Just drafting, because when you've got the
(23:27):
creative flow going, you want tojust yeah, you don't want to
stop, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
How many beta readers did you have, or do you have?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Probably too many, okay, so give me a number.
I would say there was likemaybe seven, oh, okay, you know
why do you feel like it's toomany?
I think because after I did it,I read somewhere probably four
or something, five yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yes.
So for some reason I wasexpecting you to say like 20.
Oh, that's why I said oh whenyou said seven.
But I can see if you get sevendifferent.
And do you prompt them withquestions?
I do, or do you just?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
okay, yes, I kind of give them like general
overarching and I never want itto feel daunting for a beta
reader to like answer a bunch ofthings or do inline comments.
A lot of them justautomatically do, which I was so
grateful and felt so lucky thatthey did that.
But yeah, so I gave them like abulleted list of questions to
(24:31):
kind of help with, like doesanything, is the pacing good?
Does any character feel likenot believable, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Did you color code the responses?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I might.
You know I still have to.
It's like I have all thefeedback and now I need to
figure out a way to synthesizeit all and have figure out what
the common threads are, whichI'm seeing some which is kind of
what you want, like, okay, youknow, if half of them said this,
then I need to take a closerlook at this particular area
(25:05):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Exactly what are you excited about when it comes to
the launching and the marketingof Glitter and Gold?
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Well, marketing, it's so funny.
I've worked in marketing butI'm like ugh, marketing, I just
want to write.
So you know I love, but I lovedoing stuff like this, like
talking to people about bookswho want to talk about books.
It makes me excited.
I let's see.
(25:33):
What am I looking forward to?
Just kind of having that likekind of a tour, or like doing a
tour.
I'm reaching out like locallyand you know the book takes
place in arizona, so I'd like tohit the you know arizona indie
bookstores and everything yeah,when's changing hand?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
you said the 17th yes at changing hands.
Is that in the tempe or thephoenix?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Phoenix location.
Okay, it's October 17th, soyeah, I'm excited about that.
And just talking to whoeverwould love to talk about books
and writing and craft, yeah, Ithink that's the most exciting
and connecting with readers andother writers.
So last question I always askwhat are you reading right now,
are you?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
reading anything right now?
Are you writing everythingRight?
Trying last question, I alwaysask what are you?
What are you reading right now?
Are you reading anything rightnow?
Are you writing everything?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Trying to read.
I know I wish there were morehours in the day for it.
Um, I I'm kind of I'm so behindon my TBR and I'm a mood reader
, so I finally wait.
What does?
Speaker 1 (26:37):
that mean A mood reader to you.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I'm like you know if you're in the romance or I feel
like, oh okay, yeah.
So I um, yeah, a couple ofyears behind I'm reading the
invisible life of Addie LaRue,Finally, yes, so beautiful,
well-written, just incredible.
So I'm sure most people are, um, have already caught up to that
(27:03):
.
I'm kind of behind.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I haven't, so I'll just add that you said my years
long.
It's true.
I feel like I'm years behind insome cases, I know.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
And sometimes you're just kind of challenging, pluck
it out and like, okay, I'm goingto read this and then I also
kind of something.
And then I also kind ofsomething I try to like push
myself out of my comfort zone abit and I started the on audio
Women who Run With Wolves Ithink it's called by Dr Clarissa
(27:32):
Pinkola Estes.
Yes, and it's just a reallyfascinating the way she uses
storytelling from like myths andtale to kind of get into the
psychology of, you know, women,modern culture.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
So are you usually reading more than one at once or
are you a one at a time reader?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I would say I I usually have like a physical
book and then audio because youknow, just being busy and
wanting to multitask and readall the things and absorb all
the things you know.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
so yeah, and then again, with not enough hours in
the day Exactly so or days inthe year, my God, even though
the days right now us both beingin Arizona feel like they are
interminable.
It's weather is not okay.
Well, thank you so much forjoining and I will put all of
your info in the episode notes,as I always do.
(28:30):
I cannot wait for October 7thand the 17th because, thankfully
, I'm local, so I will be thereat Changing Hands and thank you.
Thank you for having me.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.