Brandon Sanderson Mansplaining, The Next Big Story, The Bonnie Blue of Agents, and Rachel's Muse is Murderous

Kayla and Rachel share juicy updates on their newest writing projects—Rachel’s twisty, spicy dinner party murder mystery (with a murder mystery game inside!) and Kayla’s speculative dystopian novel idea, recently submitted to The Novelry’s “Next Big Story” contest. They discuss the thrill and terror of writing fast, sending before revising, and navigating feedback while staying creatively uninhibited.

You’ll also hear:

• A breakdown of Brandon Sanderson’s best story structure tips (and how Kayla used them to analyze Rachel’s character motivations)
• A tangent about writing sex scenes while your kids are awake (oops)
• A deep dive into “thisness” (aka haecceity) with examples from Margaret Atwood and Annie Dillard
• Whether your writing should sparkle enough for an agent to remember you—and what Kayla plans to do about that one agent
• Manifestation, muses, and Rachel’s evolving shrine cupboard
• And an honest conversation about feedback, friendship, and not wasting each other’s time

This is an episode about being in the thick of it—writing messy, dreaming big, and figuring it all out as you go.

Mentioned in this episode:

• The Novelry’s “Next Big Story” Contest
• Brandon Sanderson’s NaNoWriMo video tips
• The Oxford Writer on YouTube
• Margaret Atwood’s Alias Grace
• Annie Dillard’s Pilgrim at Tinker Creek
• Rachel’s novel-in-progress (aka the dinner party murder mystery with spice)
• Kayla’s male-only island dystopia
• The Write Your Heart Out Instagram – where you might see Kayla's shrine (eventually) and Rachel's vision board (maybe) @writeyourheartoutpod

Please subscribe, rate and review!

New episodes every Wednesday.

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Leave us a message at 650-260-4885

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Kayla Ogden.
And I'm Rachel Sear.
And this is Write Your HeartOut, our podcast about writing.
Here we are.
Here we are.
Today, we're going to talk abouta bunch of stuff, some writing
that we've been doing.
Rachel and I have been on ajourney to sort of hone our
craft as writers figure out youknow who we are what we like to

(00:23):
write and get publishedessentially we've had this one
contest on our radar for a whileyeah and it's I wonder if you
also know about it alreadyperson who's listening it's from
the novelry it's called the nextbig story and you enter to win a
hundred thousand dollar prizeyeah which is so crazy and a ton

(00:47):
of coaching like it's reallythey're setting you up to become
an author and like make it yourjob which is amazing yes they're
like this is your ticket to alife of writing and they have
like pictures of like a goldenticket on their website and it
does kind of feel like a charlieand the chocolate factory vibe
in a way of like oh my god likeit does this would really this

(01:07):
could really really change yourlife well did you see that the
novel the judges are also reallycool um they have like uh god
what's her name it's not evanrange what they have a zosia
mammoth or zosia Yeah, well,that one.
But then there's also a womanwho's an actress and writer.
Emma Roberts.
Emma Roberts.
There we go.
Yeah.
So I knew it start with an E.

(01:28):
Yeah.
They have a bunch of big dealpeople who are going to be
judging this.
You can submit your story untilI think July 31st.
Yeah.
And basically they're lookingfor three pages, about 1500
words where they want you tojust like really grip them and
for them to be like, oh, this isthe next big story that we're

(01:50):
going to help you develop into anovel over the course of a year.
Yeah.
I had sent in the first chapterof the carolyn book um and now i
think i'm gonna try to set andsend in the dinner for eight one
because it's getting fun oh mygosh yes yeah but I cannot wait
to hear more about the one thatyou're sending in.

(02:11):
Oh, right, right, right.
Okay.
I wrote this thing.
Basically, I was awoken in, youknow, the middle of the night,
as happens to me by my musewhispering in my ear and telling
me like a story to write.
And it's the kind of thing thatI've been wanting to write.
It's like speculative, dystopianfuture fiction.

(02:34):
I want to write this kind ofbook because I feel like these
kind of Totally.
Totally.

(03:03):
Yeah.
I mean, things like morerecently that are kind of
inspiring are like SayakaMurata's books, who she does
like really sort of, some peoplecall it like weird girl lit.
And yeah, just like, oh, andalso George Saunders, George

(03:25):
Saunders, of course, his shortstories.
It's just like, If I could be onthe shelf next to those kind of
books, I would be so happy andexcited.
So I decided to just fucking tryit.
And I thought that this would besomething that would grip maybe
the people at the novelry whoare reading entries more than

(03:45):
the book that I've alreadybasically finished.
Because the book that I'vealready finished, like if I were
to just send in the first threepages, it's just sort of like,
oh, here's a girl and her mom.
And, you know, they are having aconflict.
Yeah.
Which is good, though.
I mean like I really like thatalthough if you're trying to
grab someone in a contestdefinitely want to do something

(04:06):
a little punchy something yeahexactly so I just basically
wanted to put it all out I builtthis world it's this like island
nation that's it's actuallybased on New Zealand but I'm not
gonna like say that ever exceptfor right now and it's in the
future and in this nation likeall of the women have died and

(04:27):
all the children have been sentaway so it's just men.
The first 1500 pages hint at howall the women died and talk
about like this communistgovernment that is in charge of
the people and how they might beresponsible for all the women
dying and that kind of thing.
So I wrote it and I looked at itand I thought it was really

(04:50):
good.
And then I just sent it inbefore even getting one person
to look at it or talk to meabout it.
And then I was like, oh, I justwant to show this to Rachel.
So I sent it to Rachel and shegave me some notes.
And then I was like, damn it, Ican't believe I already sent
this when I have like thesemistakes in it and like things
that I could have made better.

(05:10):
No, not mistakes.
I don't think there aremistakes.
I know that you're consideringone of them to be a mistake, but
I wouldn't say it is.
One, they're not looking for apolished piece from the novelty.
They're looking for a diamond inthe rough idea.
And I think that that's reallyimportant.
Like that's an important factor.
Because if you're already like aRight, yeah.

(05:40):
Right.
God, it was a great story.
The things that...
Do you want to say what it was?
The things that were a littleconfusing?
Yeah.
Sure.
Well, hold on.
But I'm going to start with theend because I literally, at the

(06:03):
very end, I wrote...
I think I wrote, oh my God, no.
I was so upset that there wasnot more.
Oh, really?
Yes.
Didn't I write that?
Oh my God, if I didn't, I meantto because it felt so much like
I need to know more about thisworld.
So the things that wereconfusing were I was a little

(06:26):
bit gender confused.
Like this main character,there's never an explicit big
hint as to if it was a male orfemale.
And I honestly thought thatmaybe it didn't matter in the
story, which is like, I thoughtit maybe was a conscious choice.
But I, when I realized that atthe, you know, at this peak

(06:46):
moment in this first 1500 words,all the women were dead.
And I was like, oh, well.
Wait a second.
So this is a man?
I felt like I needed just alittle bit more confirmation on
that one.
Yeah, I think it would be coolto have a book that you never
know what gender the characterwas.

(07:06):
That would be so cool.
That's not what I was going for.
It's just one of those thingswhere you know your world and
your character and stuff, andsometimes you just send
something in to the novelrybefore you realize like oh damn
I forgot to provide one cluebecause it's interesting that

(07:28):
you said that because I'm likeoh yeah all the women are dead
and you do discover that butthat doesn't mean that the main
character didn't somehow surviveright that's the story and then
also it's like oh I have a scenewhere he's hooking up with his
best friend who is female butthat doesn't mean that he's a
man like at all And so I'm like,OK, well, I want his gender like

(07:52):
I don't need that to be asurprise or revealed like that
could be cool in other works.
But I think for this book, Iwant the reader to be able to
just imagine him right there.
from the beginning sure becausei find it disorienting when i'm
reading a story and halfwaythrough they're like oh his
green eyes twinkled and hisbrown afro like hit the light or

(08:15):
whatever and i'm like what ithought this was like an asian
guy like you totally yeah itmakes me feel weird and like
have to try to like reimaginethings right i don't want to put
the reader in that positionright also being that I'm
building a speculative worldsomething I want to mention is
that like when I was younger andI tried to read Dune, I tried to

(08:38):
read, tried to read sci fiseveral times, certain ones that
I have read, like Andy Weir, forexample, are really
approachable.
But like Dune, you know, it'slike I started reading it, and
they have these different racesof people that have this whole
name, and they just refer to thepeople by that weird name.
And then, you know, the theplanet has a weird name, and the

(09:01):
systems for things have allthese weird names.
It's just like all of theseweird nouns right away.
And I remember trying to read itand being like, I guess I'm just
too stupid for this because Ihave no idea what they're
talking about.
I just don't, you know, nobodytold me that with sci-fi, that's
how everybody, nobody knows atfirst.
That's the point is that youread it and you get taken along

(09:23):
on this ride and you begin tounderstand and piece things
together.
And I think that you get a goodtaste of that in this book.
Like you can feel that that'swhere you're going.
There's these characters that,it's a word I've never seen
before, right?
And I am like, oh, they soundmaybe prostitutes?
And my imagination goes wildwith this character, or these

(09:46):
subculture of people, I think.
And you clearly have to keepreading, but you do it in a way
that stays very intriguing.
You want to keep going.
I've actually never read Dune.
I feel like I should.
Did you see the movies?
I didn't, but because well, I,do not like to see movies before
i read a book because if i haveto if i already have a visual of

(10:09):
a character and then it doesn'tmatch in the book it's too
distracting for me i can't likeget past it and then it ruins
the book for me and i never wantit to go that way i want it to
be the other way around i'drather be disappointed in a
movie than disappointed in abook okay yeah that makes total
sense yes okay anyway but backto yours the other thing that
felt a little um disorientingi'm gonna throw that word out

(10:32):
there was the timeline I felt wejust needed just a little bit
more like clarification around.
It was clear when we go back intime, but it's not clear when we
jump forward again in time.
And it's a really cooltransition, although it just
isn't quite clear enough, youknow.
Yeah.
And I needed that.
Now, looking back, I'm like,dang, I I think that if you.

(10:57):
you know, if you really lean inand really go back and try to
read it, you can figure it out.
But that's not what I want thereader's experience to be
because I, that's taking themout of the story.
Right.
Right.
So it's better.
Like I could have just had somesmall indication that we're
going from the past and thenwe're jumping into the present.
It could have been a chapter.

(11:17):
It could have been just a, a,Pound sign.
Pound sign in between.
Or it could have just been thecharacter going, I can't believe
it's been three years hence orwhatever.
Totally.
So I'm totally going to add thatto the story.
I think that something that I'velearned from you, Rachel, is

(11:37):
like you're really good at justsending it.
And like that, what's perfectionis the enemy of perfection.
done is better than perfect orperfect will never happen or
something.
I'm looking it up.
I'm like, Oh, perfection is theenemy of progress.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Progress, not perfection.
Yes.
I feel like I've been a lot moreproductive since I've been

(11:59):
spending more time with you andworking alongside you.
Yeah.
But then on the flip side, it'slike, okay, I went, I swung way
too far.
I wrote this and I just sent it,which I'm proud of myself that I
did.
Right.
I'm But I could have had atleast you look at it first and
then I would know that the timeshift was wrong, that I should

(12:22):
gender the character earlier.
Sure.
And I also missed something.
At the beginning of the story,there's these two animals and I
described them as like fertile.
And then later on, fourparagraphs later, I say that
they just have to be replacedbecause they don't have sex
organs so they can't reproduce.
Yeah.
and I'm like fuck it's because Iwas kind of like pantsing and

(12:45):
writing coming up with the ideasas I go yeah and then I just
like left that in really irks meas a perfectionist I'm like fuck
but that's being the unpolishedyou know like they're not
they're looking for the diamondin the rough yeah they don't
want they don't want a ready setset diamond you know yes yeah
part of the contest is thatthey'll spend a year with you

(13:06):
developing this idea and that'swhat's so exciting why am I
getting so excited about thisthere's gonna be like like
thousands of entrants or not.
We don't know.
Like we've, I mean, they'redoing a great job at advertising
it on, you know, like onInstagram and stuff.
I'm getting a ton of, you know,little things that they're
sending out there, but maybe, Imean, who knows what the actual

(13:28):
traction is.
I sense that you, do you believein like manifestation?
I absolutely do.
You do?
Yes.

UNKNOWN (13:36):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
Do you?
I thought maybe you did, andthen you looked at me like I was
crazy.
Well, I've been a lot morewoo-woo and spiritual over the
last couple of months wherewe've been doing this podcast
than normal.
I do and I don't.
I mean, I just...
Well, I think there's a pointwhere you have to work.
You can't be like, I'm going tomanifest dinner tonight.

(14:01):
You do have to do shit.

UNKNOWN (14:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
What's that?
There's another phrase that likeGod blesses those who work.
I don't know.
You're the one who knows moreabout God.
God does things for those who dofor themselves or something like
that.
Oh, he helps those who helpthemselves or something.
Yeah.
I don't know.
All right.
Well, we should like leave Godout of this.

(14:28):
All right.
All right.
Like this thing.
So, um, In prior episodes, Italked about wanting to make a
shrine to my muse.
Oh, yes.
Oh, we need a progress update onyour cupboard.
Yeah.
So it's this vintage spicecupboard that I have that I'm
going to transform.
So when you open it up, there'sall these talismans and woo-woo

(14:51):
things, lucky things in there sothat I can, I don't know, open
it up and maybe say a littlepoem or a prayer to my muse
before I start writing.
I haven't done anything with ityet, but I know some of the
things that are going to go inand this kind of relates back to
manifestation when I was youngwhen I was like 20 or something
I worked at this cafe and therewas this yeah like woo-woo lady

(15:13):
who worked there and before Ileft to move to Tofino which is
on Vancouver Island in Canadashe had this deck of tarot cards
and she said you know this deckdoesn't have any power in it for
me anymore so I'm just allowingpeople in my life to choose a
card so would you like to choosea card I said sure and I pulled

(15:34):
it out like the image on it isso beautiful and it's like a
person on a cliff the waves arelike coming in and the person
has their arms up in like a Vsort of like a victory stance
you know when you like runthrough the finish line but
their back is facing away Ishould I'll take a picture of it
that we can put on the Instagramperfect then I moved to Tofino

(15:55):
and literally I found this placeit was like this secret bay and
it had the softest sand and thewater's just lapping against the
shore and nobody was there likeit was my own secret paradise
island it was fucking insane andI went there I would go I had

(16:16):
like a really rough tumultuoustime when I was living in Tofino
and I would go there by myselfand it was like my safe place it
was my little heaven and Irealized that that was the place
on the card cool like it wasliterally the place on the card
and then later when I wrote mynovel I write that like that

(16:36):
place is in my book cool um themain character goes there and I
also had like an experience withmy husband at this place like
years later I brought him and myfriends there and we did
mushrooms and it was one of thebest days of my life oh fun so
anyways whatever so that feelssort of like manifests you right
totally so I'm gonna put that inin my cupboard yeah it's just

(16:56):
it's hard for me I think whenlike The Secret came out and
everything it was just hard forme to The Secret by the way if
you're Gen Z maybe you haven'theard of this but it was like a
huge phenomena that swept overthe nation Oprah was really
really into this book and thisdocumentary called The Secret.
And basically it was talkingabout how in the universe, like

(17:18):
attracts like.
So if you're and that we areenergy.
So if you're putting out likenegative energy, negative vibes,
negative predictions about thefuture, that's what's going to
come to you.
And if you put out positivethings like that's what's going
to come to you.
But they get really specificabout it.
For example, the people whowrote this is another old
throwback thing.

(17:38):
The people who wrote ChickenSoup for the Soul.
Chicken Soup for the Soul.
What a series.
I know.
And they were like, oh, we put apicture of a million dollar bill
or a million dollar check on theceiling above our bed.
And whenever we went to sleep atnight, we would look at it and
we would say, we're going tomake a million dollars off of
this book or whatever.

(17:59):
It totally happened.
And they're like, we manifestedthis.
And this, the secret is kind ofwhat brought manifestation to
the mainstream culture inAmerica.
And I think everyone's trying tomake vision boards and stuff.
after that yes it was like youmake a dream board and then
other dreams come true you knowI have a vision board right here
in this closet no way and it'shiding but writing is on there

(18:23):
for sure should we post yourvision board on the oh my god
I'm so embarrassed now when didyou make it at the beginning of
the year oh yeah well hey youdon't have to but maybe you
should just say it with yourchest I can I'll share it I mean
come on here we are if I'msharing my dorky little shrine
to the yeah if you're gonnashare your shrine I can share my
vision Okay, so if I get myshrine done, she will share her

(18:56):
board.
the amazing thing of inviting meto I'm able to read her work in

(19:18):
progress this dinner for eightwhich she just started a couple
weeks ago no a week ago holyyeah last time we recorded was I
think last Monday and I had juststarted it I think I just
started the day before so Ithink I'm one weekend Oh my
gosh.
So yeah, this is the story thatyou were prompted, right?

(19:40):
Yeah.
So my writing group from school,they created a little Google Doc
so we could all put up littleprompts for each other.
And I had put up the one aboutyou're having a dinner party.
Someone brings an unexpectedguest.
You have a it has turned intoquite the twisty tale.

(20:02):
Oh, you wrote the prompt.
I wrote the prompt.
And then one of the people waslike, this feels oddly specific.
And I was like, well, no, itcould go anywhere.
And then I like gave like a listof places it could go, like very
opposition.
Like maybe you're in love withthis guest who comes in.
Maybe it's somebody that youdespise.
Maybe it's someone who forgotthat you had existed.

(20:22):
You know, like I gave a bunch ofoptions.
And then I was like, My optionsare good.
I'm rolling with this puppy.
So I started, I started as ashort story and I kind of had it
done.
And then I was like, I can't bedone here.
My muse was kicking me right inthe ass.
Yeah.
Kicking her right out of bed atfour in the morning to write.

(20:43):
Yeah.
I've been getting up at fourevery day to like this past
weekend.
I was potentially the worst momever because I was just like,
shut up.
I have to watch another show.
Yeah.
wow that's really cool I meanit's already like 20,000 words
20,000 words in a week what thehell yeah it's bananas bananas

(21:04):
so she sent me this work thatshe's working on and we've also
been talking a lot about umspice which we'll get back into
but going through and it's sospicy and it's also very like
fun oh good um the relation sothere's a lot of people in it
her character is having a dinnerparty so you know people come to

(21:28):
the door and then they're sortof like described in pairs
coming through the door rightthey relate to each other the
way that the women like jokeabout things and like razz each
other and the way that everybodyhas sort of different
relationships with each other islike so fun like I laughed out
loud yeah it was great and thenthe unexpected dinner guest

(21:52):
comes and throws a really bigsexy sexy piece into the The
last time I worked on somethingthat you wrote, it was basically
done.
She just needed to cut it down.
Right.

(22:27):
because so when I first finishedmy novel I sent it to beta
readers and I said to themplease be like gentle with me
like be honest if there'ssomething that I need to know
but I do I would you know I'dlike encouragement and like I'm
giving you all my bare littleheart and like you could really

(22:47):
really hurt me you know I'm likejust please fucking be careful
like don't you can't like don'tbreak my heart like and then I'm
here just like saying whatever Iwant to say to Rachel in the
notes so I messaged her I'm likedo you want these notes like I
could see that she was also inthe thing like that's the thing
with Google Docs is you can seethe other person's little face

(23:09):
pop up and you're like oh sheknows I'm reading it and then
you make a note and then theylike talk to you about it in
real time and I'm like I don'tknow how sensitive she is like I
don't know but then I also heardthis accomplished writer talking
about her writing group andbasically what they say to each
other is look we're going to bekind but we're not going to
waste your time totally send itto me and I'll send you my notes

(23:32):
and there's no point in justdoing this exercise of pumping
each other's tires because youknow who needs that if you're a
novice for sure you're justgoing to send it to your friends
and family basically all youwant is a pat on the back and a
great job that was veryentertaining yeah exactly but
that's not what we're doing weactually want to get published

(23:54):
we actually want to make goodwork and we actually want to get
better and learn from eachother.
So I'm wondering...
So I texted her and she waslike, if you want to, I would
love to hear it.
Yeah.
I love getting your notes.
I think that not only are yousending me really important tips
or you're catching perspectiveissues that I'm having, but I'll

(24:18):
often...
Yeah.
The main character, theprotagonist, she will often be
like, well...
that person was really upset.
And you're like, you've madenotes and we're like, well, how
does she know that person'supset?
You know, like it's definitely aproblem that I have.
I'm like trying to feel for toomany people when I have to
really concentrate on theprotagonist, who's the first

(24:40):
person narrative.
This is her perspective.
Those notes have been reallyhelpful.
And then you've caught somereally important stuff that I'm
like, oh, there's a characternamed Jamie.
One of the things that you notedon hers was very crucial.
I said that she says somethinginnocently and you're like, is
she being innocent?
And that like totally blew mymind because I was like, is she

(25:03):
being innocent?
This bitch can't be thatairheaded.
And then I was like, okay, thatactually shifted a huge thing
for me because it was she sayingit innocently.
Okay, let's guess.
Can we give context?
Sure.
Yeah.
Okay.
So there's guests that come tothis beautiful dinner party
that's also a murder mystery.
Although don't say that.

(25:25):
the mystery guest.
That name is going to change.
Oh.
Yes.
Okay.
You can call him.
So basically the host, herfriend, Jamie, a woman, comes in
with a guy that she met at aconcert.
Yes.
And the host has a history withthis guy.
And then there's a point wherethe protagonist is talking to

(25:48):
Jamie.
The protagonist is saying thatwhat the guy is weird or
something.
She's saying that she has towatch out for Jamie's like,
Jamie's like, well, I reallylike him.
And she, and she's like, but hehas like something about him.
And she's like, well, You shouldbe worried.
And she's like, but why?

(26:31):
relationship with this guy backin the day yeah so they're both
kind of pretending they don'tknow each other and when Sam has
this conversation with JamieI've gotten the sense throughout
the story that Jamie is kind ofhas her eye on Sam a little bit
and it's kind of looking back inin my mind what I'm envisioning
is she's kind of looking at themlike wait that was weird that

(26:54):
was weird you know like she'spicking up on things and when
Sam says like you should lookout for him and And Jamie says,
well, why innocently?
To me, Jamie was like goadingher.
Yeah.
Like pretending to be innocentto be like, oh, right.
What I need to change that to,which I haven't done yet, was
that she says it was likefeigned innocence, you know,

(27:15):
because I think that that's acrucial part.
Yes.
But we can't know that.
if you're doing the first personand the first person is Sam,
she, she can't know, but shecould say, um, it's true.
She could say something aboutsomething about the innocence on
Jamie's face felt.

(27:36):
Sure.
There was something.
Yeah.
Like she can have a thoughtabout it and feel like it's
fake, but you can't just say shesaid with vain innocence.
Sure.
Yeah.
Um, and I'm also want, yeah.
Like a lot of times people withpoint of view they'll start
writing a story in one point ofview and then they'll realize
that they need to switch it to adifferent point of view sure I

(27:59):
don't necessarily think thatthat's true especially with the
spice because we are in Sam'shead and she is thinking a lot
of spicy she sure is this womanhas had a past yeah yeah so if
you were doing like anomnipresent narrator who could
get into everybody's heads thatto me that's freaky like that's

(28:19):
scary I'm like I don't know howI would manage to do that yeah
no I don't know how to do that Ifeel like I feel like Sam's
head's enough for me to be inyeah in all honesty just to be
able to like yeah just make ahabit out of like um not being
able to see more than she cansee no more than she can know it
would be easier than like beinglike oh maybe this is like a

(28:39):
different kind of thing where wego into different characters
heads totally that's not gonnano I don't think that's gonna
happen plus my this story it'sit is going to The game that
they play at this dinner is amurder mystery game.
And I don't think you've gottenthere yet in what you've read,
but I have now created an entiremurder mystery game.

(29:03):
Have you ever created a murdermystery game?
I've never created one, but I'vedone a murder mystery party
before.
Making one is...
So much work.
So on Sunday, no, Saturday, thatwas, this is what me and my kids
were butting heads about.
I had created, I took all theseindex cards and I created the

(29:24):
character that the charactersbecome.
And then I had on the back isthe relation between the
characters in the game and thecharacters.
And so now there's like two setsof interrelation, like
interrelations.
It's freaking confusing.
And I love it.
And it's now becoming...

(29:44):
I can't get into anyone else'shead.
They all are going to shiftpersonalities because they're
now being their characters.
And the host of the game islike, anything that happens from
here on out is you as yourcharacter.
And then that's going to startblurring a lot of lines for some
of the people.
I'm so excited.
Oh my God.
It's going to get crazy.
Okay.

(30:06):
So...
In the spirit of just beinghonest...
Uh-oh.
Okay.
This is just something that...
I don't even know if I shouldsay this.
Because...
Okay, so here's what's going onin my mind right now.
Rachel is pantsing.

(30:26):
Oh, yeah.
Big time.
And she is super duper inspired.
And she's on this amazing role.
And she's coming up with theseideas that...
are really like unique and andfun and like she's she's really
in tune with her muse and she'sin flow right so the first draft
of your book like you'resupposed to be sort of like

(30:49):
uninhibited sure and just letthat flow and so that's
something that was really uniqueabout you showing me this in
this version because it's almostlike I feel like I shouldn't
make too many notes or likereally broad notes because we
don't really know exactly wherethis is going to go until it
goes somewhere.

(31:10):
Sure.
But I guess I could put a coupleof things in your mind to think
about.
One is when I was reading this,I was like, I think that this is
a movie.
I think that you know if we haveeach dinner guest coming through
the door and here's Jamie andshe's she's dressed a certain

(31:33):
way so we can see her characterand she looks there's two
lesbian couples and they're youknow they're very different but
it would be easier for thereader to go okay that's that's
the ones that aren't havingproblems and that's the ones who
are having problems and withlike right now it's sort of just
like the names so I think you'vedone a really good job, but it's

(31:54):
still a lot of people tointroduce in a book.
It is.
A lot of characters to introducein a book.
And then now you're adding thissecond layer of now those
characters have a character, sothey're going to now have
different names.
Yes.
Although only a few charactersin the murder mystery itself
matter.
Okay.
Yeah.
It's going to narrow it down alittle bit.

(32:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I say totally go for it inlike a really uninhibited way.
way and don't I wouldn'tactually get too bogged down
with making everything so soclear like I would work on you
know moving the plot alongtotally like you're doing
there's a second part about thisthat people don't really like

(32:37):
reading about dreams for examplein books totally because there's
no stakes I don't even likehearing about dreams so it's
like yeah all this stuffhappened but it was just a dream
so who gives a fuck totally so Ijust the story that's on top,
like the actual murder mysterystory that's on top.
It's going to be hard, I think,to make that plot line important

(33:02):
because it doesn't feel likethere's any stakes unless the
stakes become real somehow,unless somebody actually kills
somebody or actually isliterally hurting somebody's
feelings or like whatever.
I would go probably light onwhatever the actual murder
mystery plot is and heavier onhow people are feeling about
their characters and that kindof stuff.

(33:24):
Definitely.
I've definitely thought of that.
Yeah, we're on the same page.
The stakes remain high.
I mean, the balance between thismarried woman, Sam, her husband
who's there, and the guy who shehas this super sexual past with
The stakes are high.

(33:45):
Like, it's going to definitelyhave to end in something crazy
happening.
Oh, my God.
I can't.
I can't not.
I'm so excited.
Right?
Oh, my God.
I just have...
I have three optional endings inmind.
And...
I just can't decide if someoneshould really die or not.
Oh, my God.
Okay, so is this book...

(34:05):
Like, is the rest of the bookbasically them doing this game?
Does it all take place in onenight?
I think it's going to all takeplace in one night.
That is so cool.
I was thinking that maybe thevery end could be, like, what
the aftermath is.
Because no matter what,something big's happening.
Like, it's going to...
The spice.
Rachel...
Oh, yeah, the spice.
When we started this podcast...

(34:27):
not very many moons ago, Rachelhad her story about Carolyn that
she had been building this worldand Carolyn hadn't even come
close to getting laid in thisstory.
And you have how many words?
Like 50,000 words or something?
Yeah, I think so.
Okay, so she's written a lotabout this character and the
character is a widow, so she'sunattached, but there's no sex

(34:51):
in it.
No.
And Rachel was like, I don'tknow how to write a sex scene.
Yeah, I had literally never eventried to write a sex scene.
And then I tried to write amakeout scene, and that didn't
work so well.
She got a little feedback at herclass, which you can hear about
in prior episodes, where justone person...
It was like one guy was like,Oh, does she even like dudes?

(35:16):
I just I wonder what guys thinkis going through our heads when
we're making out with you on theporch and like what is going
through your head because when Iin your story, she wants to
bring it inside.
Yeah, he's done making out withhim outside.
Yeah.
and so she's she is making outwith him but she has other
things in her mind she'smultitasking she's going in and

(35:38):
trying to fumble with her keysshe's like oh i can't like she's
into it but like there's justother things on her mind and i
wonder if guys just don't haveanything else on their mind when
they're making out with youkayla i think that's a whole
nother podcast we could uh diveinto what's going in men's mind
and take a good hour to notfigure it out because i don't

(35:59):
think no never mind i'm notgonna say that that was not kind
i'm not gonna to finish thethought but it's like what it's
like to this guy who whocritiqued your work which is
like great but it's like when hegoes into the mind of a woman
who is making out with somebodyoutside their door he's like oh
she must not be into it becauseshe's thinking about other

(36:20):
things it's like it's likethat's the that's like the such
a hard part about being a womanand having sex is that It takes
a minute.
It really takes a while to likeclear our heads and our nervous
systems and everything of allthe clutter and actually just

(36:41):
focus on.
Right.
So I think that that's one ofthe great parts about figuring
out how to write this in thisnew character.
Sam's point of view is she hashad this past with this guy and
she was angry.
clearly like getting her brainsfucked out with this guy for
like years.

(37:02):
And so now she also has thislife with her husband where like
they have, you know, prescribedsex, you know, like scheduled
they're, they're on theirroutine.
And, um, So I think it was funfor me to like drop that mom
thought process.
You know, Carolyn's like a mom.
She's like, she's in the, inlike, I'm a mom, you know, like

(37:24):
in the mom zone.
Whereas Sam, who's also a mom,she has that mom life, but in
these flashback scenes or likethese fantasy scenes, she's
like, I, I'm not mommy anymore.
And like, I even wasn't mom atthe time.
Right.
And she was not a mom at thetime.
And so like, it's a totallydifferent mindset.
And that's been really fun towrite because, I mean, it's way

(37:46):
hotter to not be mommy.
Unless that's what you want.
That's very spicy.
So what do you think about Didyou enjoy writing the spice?
Yeah, it's been fun.
I kind of, I don't know what Iexpected.
I think that I had built it upin my head where it's going to
be like this whole hot andbothered like situation where

(38:07):
maybe my family shouldn't behome while I'm writing these
scenes.
Oh, like you're getting hot?
It's not like that.
Yeah, no, it's not like that.
It isn't?
No.
You're not getting hot?
No.
I mean, no.
Me neither.
Because I'm still thinking thestory is still progressing.
You know, I think I still have awoman brain at the end of the
day.
You know, we're still movingforward.

(38:30):
Yeah.
And are you.
You can talk about more specificthings from the story, too.
I'm not worried about that.
OK, cool.
When you are writing theseglimpses into her past sex life,
there was one like really goodone where.
So I can say.
Yeah, go for it.
So she's having feelings abouther ex, and he never wanted to

(38:57):
have kids with her, but hewould, like, dangle the carrot.
Like, he would make her feelsometimes like there was a
future with them.
Yeah, right.
And there's this sex scene whereshe's on top of him, and he's
holding her hips in place whilehe comes, because he's saying...
I want to put a baby in you.

(39:18):
Yeah.
He wants to get her pregnant.
But then like, it's just likethis mind fuck thing.
Like you want to get herpregnant or is he just saying
that that just turns him on tosay that?
I think it just turns him on tosay that because I think, I
think he just fucks with her.
I'm just, I'm trying to, I'mtrying to, I don't think you've
gotten to, you definitelyhaven't gotten to, if you've

(39:38):
paused where you put thebookmark, then you have not
gotten to the part where he'sjust like fucking with her.
And like, He doesn't care.
It's a game to him.
And it always had been.
Spoil.
No.
Oh, no.
Sorry.
That's not a spoiler.
That's not a spoiler.
Yes, it is.
Is it?
Okay, well, then cut it out.
No, no.
I mean, I don't know.

(40:00):
Oh, okay.
This is so good because now mymind is blown.
And I'm like, I was reading thisand he came there and, you know,
at first you don't, you justthink it's all like a mistake,
right?

UNKNOWN (40:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
sure she suspects it was not a mistake that he knew
that it was her having thisparty and that he showed up on
purpose so there's this questionin the air of like is he in love
with her like does he regretletting her go does he wish he
had children with her like hashe grown and changed like is he
there to fall in love with herand you're saying that he's just

(40:34):
there to fuck with her no no nohe likes to fuck with her
sexually like oh yeah have sexfucking with her not like
gaslight her and fuck with herhead no I think both but like In
their interpersonal relationshipwhen it came to sex, he just
likes to fuck with her.
Like, she does not know what wayis up when it comes to him.
The whole confusion that you'refeeling is very purposeful.

(40:54):
Within their sex life, he likesto fuck with her mentally?
Yeah.
Whoa.
Yeah.
But...
Do you think that's just he justis like abusive like that all
around or it's just likesexually he gets off on like
having this like control andmaking her confused and sending
her off balance?
I'm not sure about that yet.
Yeah.

(41:15):
I feel like at what end...
is he fucking with her?
I have no idea.
Okay.
That's really fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm pants in that part becauseI, that is where I think the
murder mystery part is going tocome into play because their
characters in the murder mysterygame are now very strangely
entwined and like in a, theylike need each other in the game

(41:37):
potentially.
Okay.
So they're going to be in a roomin rooms together more.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
The game is going to like– it'slike that's a trope.
It's like forced proximity.
Yeah.
Some people really like readingabout that when you're like, oh,
I'm stuck in the elevator withyou.
Right.
Because so far in what I'vewritten, she's trying to avoid

(42:00):
them as much as she can.
Yeah.
So, yeah, some forced proximityis in play.
This is like all very, veryexciting.
But I think that when it comesto– yeah, I just want to be–
careful with this work because Ilike I was going through and

(42:20):
being like oh okay like correctjust my mind was just doing it
I'm just like oh like correctinglittle grammar stuff and
whatever but then I realizedlike I just shouldn't even do
that because that's justcreating more notes for her
where she should just keep goingand this is like the very very
first rough of course right soit's like of course that's

(42:40):
That's not going to be perfectgrammatically.
And also you can just send thatshit through chat GPT when
you're done and it'll justcorrect grammar.
What I think that is wouldactually be helpful for you at
this stage of the writing isjust to get my reactions as I go
along.
Well, that's what you did withmine.
It's like, wait, I'm confused.
Wasn't this this?
It's like, I should know thatthat's what my readers think.

(43:02):
Right.
Well, then also.
Or if something's this.
Yeah.
But like the perspective, likemaking sure that I'm staying on
perspective is like, please helpme.
I need those things because Idefinitely, and I think that
that's just part of mypersonality.
I like to put feelings ontoother things, give feelings to
other people.
I need it to make sense in myhead, how other people are

(43:23):
acting.
So I think I'm putting that onthis character too.
And that's, that's not whatmakes the book.
I mean, that's not what makes abook that it, you know?
Yeah.
I think I thought about thistoo.
So there's a difference betweenher character, thinking that
somebody is one way and just...
the narrator just stating itright okay we had both watched a

(43:47):
youtube thing about thisnessokay and this is totally
switching gears well you saidsomething about thisness in my
story which is which is what ispeaking my memory on bringing up
thisness yes um but i i shouldhave highlighted it um but
basically there's this guycalled the oxford writer yeah

(44:08):
the oxford writer and he's thislittle guy from oxford and he
does the these YouTube videos.
And I sort of remembered thisone he did before about the
concept of thisness.
So I sent it to Rachel beforerewatching it.
And it's crazy because I'm like,Rachel, like watch this 10
minute video and we'll talkabout it on the pod.

(44:29):
And then I go to rewatch it.
And I realized after about twominutes that everything, all the
meat of it was done.
And the rest of the video wasjust this Oxford writer, a
little guy like telling his ownlittle story that he wrote.
He sure was.
And with sound effects andeverything.
Once I realized he was doingthat, I just shut it off.

(44:51):
But then I was like, Oh, no, Imade Rachel.
Rachel thinks that I want her toread, like, listen to this.
Well, as I was listening to it,or watching it, You know, I was
folding laundry.
The imagery in it is fantastic.
I mean, I got to say, his storyis, like, it is, you know, rats
are wearing pants, and, like,you can see it.

(45:12):
You can see it happening.
It had this-ness.
It had some this-ness, I guess.
Okay.
So you like the story?
I still don't.
No, I didn't like it.
I mean, come on.
The story was ridiculous, and Iwas definitely like, why did she
have me listen to this?
Oh, that's so embarrassing.
Although...
I mean, I still thought it wasgood imagery.

(45:34):
I feel like it's always helpfulto hear.
how things are described is sovividly and like be like oh yeah
i do one thing i don't want tobe a teller i want to be a you
know shower yeah so the oxfordwriter um labeled his youtube
video the 700 year old novelwriting secret quote thisness
what thisness is it was a latinterm i believe called hexiety

(46:00):
okay so hexiety is translated tothisness it's relates to the
discrete qualities, properties,or characteristics that make
something uniquely itself.
So like two leaves, like twoleaves from a tree, they might
be the exact same species,color, and shape, but each has

(46:23):
its own hexiety.
One of them has this like slightcurve or like a little bite
taken out of it.
Something about that thing thatis just unique to it that you
can describe.
So yes, It's about finding theessence of a thing and naming it
in a way that makes people say,whoa, like I never thought of it
that way, but that's utterlytrue.

(46:45):
Sure.
So one of the examples he givesin the beginning of the video is
like you could say, you know,they pulled up in a car outside.
Or you could say the, youknow...
A red Oldsmobile with white rimsscreeched to the front of my
house.
You know, and like, that's thedifference.
Yeah, making, pulling out thepiece of something that makes it

(47:06):
unique and different.
Right.
Yeah, is the way that the Oxfordwriter describes Hexiety.
Hexiety.
I think I kind of understandthis.
Here's a quote from a bookcalled Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at
Tinker Creek.
She says, I had been my wholelife a belle.
and never knew it until at thatmoment I was lifted and struck.

(47:29):
This is describing a thisness,an essence about the feeling of
discovering yourself because ofsomething that somebody else did
to you, right?
So she said, I had been my wholelife a bell and never knew it
until at that moment I waslifted and struck.
To me, that feels kind of likesexual.

(47:51):
Yeah, sure.
But That's describing theessence of a feeling that is
like very unique to her.
Totally.
And so I think that that ishexiety.
Totally.
I remembered this one quote fromMargaret Atwood in Alias Grace
that it's another description ofa feeling, but I think it's like

(48:13):
the hexiety of the feeling.
I was confused about this wholehexiety concept at first because
I'm like, Are they just talkingabout similes and metaphors?
Because one of the quotes thatthe Oxford writer talks about is
a Raymond Chandler quote.
And he says Raymond Chandler wasreally good at hexiety.

(48:34):
And it basically was saying likehis voice was fat.
It came through the linewheezing like a person who had
just won a pie eating contest.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm like, is he just talkingabout doing like eating?
interesting quirky littlemetaphors is that what it is but
it's like an essence ofsomething that's unique totally

(48:54):
and this is margaret atwood fromalias grace describing the way
that a woman feels that i thinkis really vivid and hexiety ish
and like thisnessy okay it saysbut underneath that is another
feeling a feeling of beingwide-eyed awake and watchful
It's like being waked suddenlyin the middle of the night by

(49:15):
hand over your face and you situp with your heart going fast
and no one is there.
And underneath that is anotherfeeling still, a feeling like
being torn apart, not like abody of flesh.
It is not painful as such, butlike a peach and not even torn
apart, but too ripe andsplitting open of its own
accord.
And inside the peach, there's astone.

(49:38):
Wow.
She is having a very particularfeeling.
Absolutely.
And you're relating it tosomething that you can smell and
like taste and feel and see.
It's a feeling.
But the essence of that feelingis love.
a too ripe peach.
Yeah.
In all of its complexity.
Sure.
I think that's what this is.

(50:00):
I think it is.
Yeah.
And I noticed in your writingthat there was a piece of
thisness.
Look at me go.
So I'm going to add that to theshow notes because I sort of did
a quick peek back, but I shouldput it in the show notes.
Can I?
Sure.
Why not?
Okay.
I'm going to quote a piece ofRachel's story that I thought

(50:20):
was this.
I mean, I'm not being stupid bysharing this.
Am I?
I mean, Please, if you'relistening, don't steal my story.
Yeah, I know.
I mean, I don't I'm not reallythat worried about it.
So should I be?
I don't.
I don't know.
So there's this great podcastcalled Books with Hooks where

(50:41):
people send in their queryletter that they're writing to
an agent and these agents, theyread your query letter and they
critique it.
They say, I didn't understandthis.
This needs to be more punchy.
This needs to be whatever,whatever.
And I thought about sending inmy query letter to these agents
to read.
Some people who've had theirquery letters read on this
podcast have like an agent willjust reach out to them and

(51:03):
they'll just get agented fromthat.
Part of me was just like, Idon't want everybody to hear
about my whole like plot and allthese things because it has has
like this extra hook it's just aquestion it's like am I being
too precious about this becausethere's so many stories to tell
and why would somebody likesteal mine I mean I guess it's

(51:24):
happened sure I mean I guess Imean anything's possible yeah
anything's possible I at the endof the day if I am you know if
you're listening right now andyou're like Okay, I can write
some weird fucked up sexualthing between two people and
then make it into a murdermystery.
I mean, by all means, go for it.
But it's not going to be thesame regardless.

(51:46):
So I'm not really worried.
I feel like...
Don't make me worried, people.
Don't worry her.
I mean, I did put up a...
I'm on our Instagram.
I put up a picture and that likein it, you can see like a chunk
of what I'm writing.
Yeah.
A whole page worth.
So I mean, I think, I think I'mgood with sharing.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm going to make thatstatement.
I'm good with the show notes andI'm happy to share what I've

(52:09):
shared so far.
I do need to change the guy'sname, the X in the story.
Currently, it's not a name thatI want to keep for him.
It's not the right name.
Is it your actual ex?
No.
So this story, I was like, oh myGod, this is just you.
No, it's not me.

UNKNOWN (52:32):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (52:33):
Because I know that you've talked to your therapist
about making things you and youdon't want to make things you.
But there are so many detailsfrom your actual life and house
and stuff.
No, that's not my house at all.
There's like stairs and like aback to the house.
My house is definitely not likethat.
Wait, what is like my house inthere?
I don't think so.
I guess I shouldn't.

(52:54):
I mean, there's marble on thebathroom floor.
No, I mean like the picturesthat you take every year on the
wall with your family.
Oh, don't all fancy people takepictures of their families every
year?
Everyone I knew growing up hadfamily portraits taken every
year.
Okay.
And I feel like that's just arich, fancy person thing.
Right.
What else?
Well, there was somebody's hairis red in it.

(53:16):
Oh, yeah.
My daughter's hair is red in it.
I mean, like, so my daughter'shair is red and that is the main
character's daughter's hair.
I do feel like I definitely donot feel like I am this
protagonist at all.
However, you have to write whatyou know to some extent.
And so, like, I can describethere's a moment where I
describe her hair shining copperin a photo, you know, in the

(53:40):
sunlight.
And That's just like when Iclose my eyes and envision a
little girl standing in a field,that's what I'm envisioning.
So I don't think that– I thinkit's just those little details.
It's definitely not me.
Okay.
Yeah.
And that wasn't your ex doingthat stuff to you?

(54:03):
No.
Okay.
Cool.
Get to know...
I am just really good at writingit, I figure now.
Yeah.
You are.
You're just a really goodwriter.
You're not just saying stuff.
Oh, man.
Yeah.
So...
The next video that I toldRachel to watch, hopefully it
was like a little better thanthe first one.

(54:24):
We wanted to look into somethingthat Brandon Sanderson had
taught on his YouTube channelbecause he has a ton of writing
advice that people love.
And he is a super, superprolific, successful writer.
So I was like, I've never reallywatched one before.
So I just kind of chose one andsent it.
And it was Brandon Sandersongiving five tips about Right,

(54:51):
right.
And I like that idea.
Oh, well, I mean, if you'redoing 50,000 words plus in a

(55:23):
month, I think that that couldbe a questionable thing to be
using.
Oh, my God.
Totally.
And it's like.
some people were like, okay, no,you can't use AI.
But then there was this questionof access or something.
It was just like this weird bendthat like some weird argument
about, well, what if peopledon't have the privilege of

(55:47):
fingers?
What if I can't hold a pen?
It's like, what if somebody hasa disability and they can't?
What if?
I don't know what it was.
But anyways, Helen Keller, whowants to participate oh sorry
that's not funny i do want it tobe inclusive i'm sorry i'm an

(56:07):
asshole yeah i don't know idon't know how chat gpt makes
things more inclusive becauseit's like you have to have
internet access you also have iguess everybody has but you also
like you pay for a membershipwith chat gpt to be able to like
really get really use it a lot.
If you were using it all monthto write 50,000 words, you would
definitely need to pay for it.

(56:28):
Oh, sorry.
Oh, I imagine so.
Anyways, so he was giving adviceto people doing NaNoWriMo.
This was like four years ago.
What did you think about hisadvice and stuff?
I thought that his adviceoverall was great.
He was a little hard to listento.
Sorry, bro.
Was he?
Him and his armchair were just alittle bit too...
He's a total nerdy dork.

(56:51):
Yeah, it was a little nerdydork.
Oh, yes.
Okay.
So the borrowing structure thingI thought was great because I
was, you know, we just, we bothjust said it.

(57:12):
You were like thinking Dune andMargaret Atwood and like you're
pulling from these like thingsthat were very inspiring to you
in the past.
And I feel like that's exactlywhat he's talking about when
he's talking about borrowingstructure.
And then here I was saying likeClue and Glass Onion and
whatever else it was that Ican't think of in this moment.
But definitely borrowing.
borrowing these like the thebare bones you know so you're

(57:35):
not taking like any of theactual meat of the story but
you're like the bare bones likethis is something that was
really attractive to me and soi'm going to strip it down and
use the use the bones and ithink that that was extremely
smart you know like a smartthing to share and he said it
well yes he said it very well ii I've thought about this.

(57:57):
I've had this writing advicebefore and I've thought about it
a lot.
It's like you watch a movie orread a book like in your genre
or that you love.
And then you go, how did they dothat?
And you try to distill it downto its elemental pieces.
So one of the examples that hegives is like a heist movie.
Right.

(58:17):
So he goes, you watch your heistmovie and you go, OK, there's a
scene where they they've gotthis problem that they need to
solve.
Then there's another scene wherethey're recruiting all of these
unique individuals withparticular sets of skills.
And then you have some sceneswhere they are preparing, you
know, they're getting theequipment that they need.
They're making their plan.
And then you have the scenewhere they actually do the heist

(58:40):
and whatever.
Sure.
And so you go, okay, well,what's my problem going to be?
Who are my characters going tobe?
Right.
What are the things that theyneed?
And what's the plan that they'regoing to come up with?
Right.
And then how does it all work?
Like, go.
So you look at the structure andthen you just copy that.
But it's still your own thing.
Right.
So I just remembered my thirdthing.

(59:02):
Did you see this show Sex Life?
No.
Okay.
It's sex slash life.
And it's a Netflix show.
And it's this woman who has abeautiful life with her family.
And then her ex, she sees hisname come up on her friend's
phone.
And she's like, all of thesethings are triggered in her mind
of all these fantasies.
And she starts writing in herjournal.

(59:22):
And then they show, obviously,in the show with this happening.
And so that's my third favorite.
That was my thing.
Like, as we're saying it, I'mlike, that was my third thing.
Yes.
Cause it's like this ex that shehad this super hot sex life
with.
And then, but here she has thisperfectly fine life.
But the past is haunting her.

(59:43):
Yes.
Yeah.
He said some other stuff.
Then he said this one.
And I did this for your story.
Okay.
Okay.
So he said another thing thatyou can do when you're first
starting your story is just askyourself this question.
What is it that my characterwants?
What is it that they need?
And why can't they have you?

(01:00:04):
either and then basically whatyou do with your story is you
just like put obstacles in frontof them that are getting in
between like them and what theywant or what they need and so I
did this for Rachel's book oohokay so hit me hit me tell me if
you think this is right so Samwants to have sex with her ex

(01:00:25):
she wants to feel desired andhave a sexual reawakening
experience what does she need soI said this might be wrong maybe
Totally.
Correct.
Yeah.

(01:01:04):
She's unwilling to communicateas directly as he needs her to
as a neurodivergent person.
Totally.
So it's like in order to have agood sex life with her husband,
she needs to literally say whenI'm wearing these socks, that
means come get me.
Totally.
And sometimes there's this thingwith people and like women were
like, I just want you to justnaturally know and like pick up

(01:01:29):
my cues.
How can you not see that I'mwearing this like negligee in
the kitchen and I'm bending overat this, you know, like, how are
you not with this character,Sam?
It's like, girl, you can getwhat you want, but you're just
going to have to get it in adifferent way.
Totally.
So is this true?
Because I'd say it's true.
I mean, that sounds about right.
Yeah.
Or do you think she needs to notbe with her husband?

(01:01:51):
No, I think she needs to learnto communicate is definitely a
major, major part of it.
And, um, that there, it islightly just said that they have
a couple of therapists.
Like it's clear.
It's a thing.
It's a It's a thing.
I mean, she definitely does notneed to go back to her ex.
He's scorned her and he'sscorned her good.

(01:02:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He'd be scorning.
He'd be scorning.

(01:02:43):
Yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.

(01:03:04):
And then another thing that hesaid, this is the last thing
that I made note of.

(01:03:28):
Okay.
morning and exercise and startmy day that way.
And then in the past year, Itried to shift to spend more
time with my husband in theevenings.
So I would try to sleep in,quote unquote, sleep in, in the
mornings, which meant like Iwould try to sleep till 6, 6.30

(01:03:48):
instead of getting up at mynormal circadian rhythm time.
And I know- Wait, is yourcircadian rhythm like five?
Oh yeah, 4.30 or five.
So now, but this past week, I'vebeen like up and when I'm not
writing I like I'll get up earlyand write and then I'll go work
out and then I'm ready to writemore like it's definitely been

(01:04:08):
part of the whole cycle for meso when you're um working out
you're still thinking about theone yes without a doubt yeah so
that's basically what he'ssaying it's like oh and one
question that he posed which Ithought was like really nicely
put was he's like why is thisscene that I'm gonna write today
gonna be somebody's favoritescene in my book yeah and I

(01:04:30):
think that that's reallyimportant as you as your book
starts like putting on the pagesas george saunders says as your
book starts putting on the pagesit's like you know sometimes you
just need a scene to get from ato b of course but every scene
should be special yeah in itsown way yeah yeah so i thought

(01:04:51):
do you think that you would wantto learn more from brandon
sanderson or is he just tooirritating to like all right my
my armchair nerd I feel like Icould definitely learn more from
him.
I think that would definitely beit.
I would watch more of thevideos.
Videos are not my jam,generally.

(01:05:12):
But if I could just pop inheadphones and listen to them
instead of looking at them, nooffense, dude.
But you're just looking at themlike, oh, why is this guy
mansplaining this shit to me?
It did feel a littlemansplaining in his armchair.
But if I treat it like a podcastand pop my earbuds in there, I
think I could do it.
I think that he's I think thathe's got some good gems.

(01:05:33):
You know, I thought that theborrowing structure thing to me,
it's not very spiritual.
And I read like quite a few likestructure books.
And I just think for your firstI think that that's a really
good exercise.
And I do want to do it actually,especially getting into this new

(01:05:53):
genre.
I think that you should beprotective over your pantsing
time and over this roughdrafting time and not be too, I
don't know.
Are you thinking of it more aslike actually writing it down
and using it as the solidstructure?
Because I'm thinking as he'ssaying that as like, you know,

(01:06:16):
I'm pulling from sex life.
I'm pulling from clue.
I'm pulling from glass, glassonion.
And I'm just keeping thosethings in mind.
You know, I don't, I still feellike it's pantsing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's totally, I think it istotally pantsing.
I mean, and you said it thatyou're like dune and all of
these things are kind of like, Ithink having in the back of your
mind.
is what he's saying you thinkhe's saying like really like

(01:06:40):
create an outline with it yeahlike basically like watch glass
onion sure and go okay what wasthe first part of this movie
like achieving and like how cani do that in the same way i
guess that is more explicitlywhat he did say i guess i was
kind of everybody arrives at theglass onion and then you're like
oh well i'm gonna get everybodyto arrive at the home right and

(01:07:00):
like You know?
Sure.
There's like this beat and thisbeat and this beat and this
beat.
And that's how you create amurder mystery.
And following along that to tellthe story.
But I think sometimes we havethose stories like ingrained in
us.
I think so.
Well, that's how I think of it.
If we like them and we've beenconsuming them our whole lives.

(01:07:21):
Right.
You sort of know what the beatsare already.
Right.
Maybe.
Yeah.
But.
Um, yeah, we'll see.
This is, this is your secondtime pantsing a book.
Sure is.
And what's going to happen toCaroline?
Oh, Caroline is going to justsit in the back for a little
while.
I think she's used to it.
Um, I definitely cannot stopwriting this one now.

(01:07:45):
Like whatever muse is on myshoulder is definitely like keep
it.

UNKNOWN (01:07:52):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:53):
And maybe a little murderous.
Yeah.
Okay, so next time.
So this week, we are going to aluncheon.
Oh, yeah, right.
So if anybody remembers my storyfrom last episode, basically, I
had this story about sittingdown with an agent.

(01:08:13):
And he was exhausted.
And he had already seen like 100writers that day.
I feel like I'm talking aboutRuby Blue or whoever that lady
was who had sex with 100 peoplein a day.
Oh, right.
Oh, no.
Baby Blue or whatever.
So he was basically the BabyBlue of agents.
Oh, this guy.
Look at his face when you saythat.

(01:08:35):
He never listens to this.
So basically...
Okay.
So I sat down with him.
I wanted him to read my work andrepresent me as an agent.
And he said that, you know, yourwriting really has to jump off
the page.
It has to sparkle, blah, blah,blah.
It has to have that X factor.
And I pushed my pages, my fivepages across the table at him.

(01:08:58):
And I said, does this have it?
And he was like, he almost likerolled his eyes like he was
exasperated with me and he puthis glasses on and he looked
down at the page for like twoseconds and he looked back up at
me and he said no and then I waslike Okay.
All right.
Touche.

(01:09:19):
And anyways, I'm sort of a partof this thing called the Women's
National Book Association, theSan Francisco chapter.
I think I'm a member of it.
Either way, I get the emails andthey're doing this free luncheon
on Thursday where it's calledHow to Work with a Literary
Agent.
And I signed up and Rachelsigned up.
And then I looked at the pictureof the agent and I'm like, oh,
my God, it's Andy Ross.

(01:09:40):
It's that guy that told me thatmy work does not sparkle.
um so you know what i'm gonna goon there and i'm seeking my
revenge

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:49):
oh no

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:51):
that is what i'm doing andy she's coming for you
i'm gonna tell him that hedoesn't fucking sparkle in front
of everyone okay okay so no nowe're gonna learn are we gonna
record after we go to luncheonshould we lunch and record lunch
and record yeah yeah let's do itbe together when we're at the
thing let's do it i'll make uslunch You want to?

(01:10:11):
Really?
Yeah, I would love to.
Oh my gosh, she makes the bestfood, you guys.
Okay, so that's going to be thenext episode.
We might drop a story time.
We promise.
We did probably before thisthough.
Yeah, no, we'll do it.
We did, but we did, we're goingto do a story time like once a
month.
We don't need to do it thismoment.
We will be doing another storytime.
Probably.

(01:10:31):
I think every three episodes wethought, right?
Like once a month.
So we're going to read, I don'tknow, a good short stories.
And it might be stuff that we'reworking on that we've talked
about a lot that we're like,okay, well, we might as well
share it with you.
Or it might be other people'swork.
Sure.
Yes.
Oh, I asked and I have not yet.
heard but one of the women thatI well girls she's not You had a

(01:10:56):
woman.
She's under 18.
She is.
Oh, my fan.
One of the girls in my class.
She is a very extremely talentedpoet.
And she read last night at ourlocal county fair.
They had a poetry section.
And some of her work was reallybeautiful.
And I asked her if I could sharesome.

(01:11:16):
So hopefully she will.
I won't say her name yet in caseshe's like absolutely never
mentioned me ever.
I don't know you, you old bitch.
I am.
I could be her mom.
Isn't that nuts?
Yeah.
Well, maybe she needs a mommy.
No, her mom was there.
She seemed very special.

(01:11:38):
Her mom should continue to beher mom.
Well, when I was under 18 and Iwas doing my spoken word poetry
and stuff, I mean, if I had awriter who was a woman in her
30s and wanted to spend timewith me and talk about writing,
I would have been, I alwayswanted older people to notice me

(01:12:00):
and spend time with me and notthink that I was really
annoying.
Yeah.
I was really happy to be able tosupport her last night.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's I hope I'm hope she thinksof me that way.
Yeah.
That'd be nice.
Okay.
Well, great.
So we'll see you guys againsoon.
Yep.
We'll have our next episodeafter lunch.

UNKNOWN (01:12:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:20):
Bye.
Bye.