Challenge Accepted

This week on Write Your Heart Out, Kayla and Rachel dig into the very beginning of storytelling—literally. They each bring the opening lines of two favorite books and analyze what makes a first paragraph sing (or fall flat). From the Southern charm of The Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood to the eerie minimalism of Vanishing World, the hosts explore voice, tone, and the power of starting strong. Kayla also reads an excerpt from her new short story, “#Vanlife,” featuring a possibly misunderstood—or deeply menacing—therapy client named Clayton. (Shawn and Marc, their husbands, weigh in with wildly different reactions.) Then, the ladies spin the wheels of The Writer’s Toolbox and assign each other a chaotic new challenge: build a new story out of three random prompts. 

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
Hey everybody, this is Write Your Heart Out and I'm
Kayla Ogden.
And I'm Rachel Sear.
And today we are following up onour homework that we decided to
do last episode.
This was something introduced byRachel's professor.
We are going to read the firstparagraph or the first little

(00:25):
chunk of...
Each of us are going to readfrom two of our favorite books
and see...
what they did and what we canlearn from that um so rachel
what was the first one that youwanted to do okay so

SPEAKER_01 (00:38):
the first one that i looked up because it was the one
that came to mind right when westarted this or when we talked
about this last um last episodewas the divine secrets of the
yaya sisterhood have you everread that book no okay it is the

SPEAKER_02 (00:53):
One of my favorite books of all time.
I read it when I was like ateenager.
And

SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
there's this very complicated relationship between
this alcoholic mother and herdaughter.
And it's the books from thedaughter's point of view
who's...
Now, a successful playwright,she had written a play or a
story based off of herchildhood.
And so now it's the complicated,the ongoing complicated

(01:22):
relationship of mother-daughter.
Okay.
Okay.
So...
I went to this one because Icould not, it's always held a
special place in my heart, but Iwould have no idea in a million
years how it had, how the firstpage had gone, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:41):
Okay, so this first chunk says, tap dancing

SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
child abuser.
That's what the Sunday New YorkTimes from March 8th, 1993 had
called Vivi.
The pages of the week-oldleisure arts section lay
scattered on the floor next toSita as she curled up in the
bed, covers pulled tightlyaround her, portable phone on
the pillow next to her head.
There had been no sign that thetheater critic would go for

(02:07):
blood.
Roberta Lidell had been sochummy, so sisterly-seeming
during the interview that Sittahad felt that she'd made a new
girlfriend.
After all, in her early review,Roberta had already proclaimed
the production of Women on theCusp, which Sitta had directed
at the Lincoln Center, to be

SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
a miraculous event in American theater.
With subtle

SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
finesse, the journalist had lulled Sitta into
cozy false sense of intimacy asshe pumped her for personal
information.

SPEAKER_02 (02:35):
Whoa.
Oh, my God.
I would never think that I wasallowed to write that for a
starting paragraph in a book.
Right?
So that was written in the 90s?
Yeah.
Oh, that's a good question.
What year did that come out?
So one

SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
interesting thing is this book has a prologue, and
the prologue gives a...
nice snapshot of theirchildhood.
And then it jumps into thisfirst chapter.
And so when I was doing ourhomework, I was kind of curious
as to if I should read from theprologue or if I should just do

(03:11):
the first chapter as we talkedabout.
And I don't know.
I don't know.
Because the first paragraph ofthe prologue I mean, that sets
up that first paragraph sobeautifully.

SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
Oh, because do you already know who these two
women, the names are?
The Ni, Ni, and Visi,

SPEAKER_01 (03:30):
or whatever?
Siddha and Vivi.
Vivi, I guess.
Vivian?
Vivi?
Vivi?

SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
Are those the sisters?
No, Vivi is the mom.

SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Or Vivi?
I don't know.
I can't remember.
And Siddha is the daughter.
Do you want me to read the firstparagraph of the prologue?
Sure.
Okay.
So, we're jumping back in time.
Siddha is a girl again in thehot heart of Louisiana.
The Bayou World of CatholicSaints and Voodoo Queens.
It's Labor Day,

SPEAKER_02 (03:55):
1959, at Pecan Grove Plantation, on the day of her
daddy's

SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
annual dove hunt.
While the men sweat and shoot,Siddha's gorgeous mother Vivi
and her gang of girlfriends, theYayas, play beret, a cutthroat
Louisiana poker, inside theair-conditioned house.
On the kitchen blackboard isscrawled, smoke, drink, and
never think, borrowed fromBillie Holiday.
When the ladies take a break,they feed the petite yaya's, the

(04:22):
yaya's offspring, sickly sweetmaraschino cherries from the
fridge in the wet bar.

SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
Okay.
That is much more in line withwhat I would expect.
Totally.
But so I love that that's theprologue

SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
because it's like, no, we're just, we're just
jumping right in with the firstparagraph of the chapter one.
Um, but so how, so that, I guessI'm going to go off subject.
We should probably talk aboutthis at another time.
What makes a prologue and whatmakes the first chapter?
Like it's A prologue is asnapshot of information you need
to know?

(04:56):
Is that just what a prologue issupposed to be?
I

SPEAKER_02 (05:00):
think so.
I think that the prologue standsapart from the rest of the
story, so it doesn't make senseas, like, a chapter one.
Sure.
What comes to mind is one of theGeorge R.R.
Martin books.
I forget...
Which one?
He has this whole prologue wherethere's these totally other

(05:21):
characters from a totally otherside of the world.
And I don't know.
They do all this shit.
Okay.
Sorry.
This is...
I don't know anything aboutthis.
So I'm just going to start over.
So that's a good question.
So that's a good question aboutthe prologues.
And I don't actually...
really know like for me in mybook I have a prologue that it's

(05:43):
from a point in time in theprotagonist's life that doesn't
show up at any other point in umin the book it's like we never
see her as a child but I want toshow this moment in her
childhood and show the way thather mother is like abusive
towards her so that weunderstand their relationship
now and that's what the rest ofthe book is like well I think

(06:06):
that's the exact that's perfectexactly I feel like prologue is
like context that you you don'treally want to show it either
way and you want the reader tounderstand it right from the
jump sure i think that's abeautiful way to say that
actually good job yeah okay buti don't know if like your
professor would have said thatthe prologue counted in terms of

(06:29):
this assignment.
Right.
You know what?
When I was younger, I would skipthe prologue and the epilogue.
I often did.
And usually if there was a fullpage of poetry at the beginning,
I was like, no,

SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
not for me.

SPEAKER_02 (06:43):
Yeah.
And I wonder, it's like we arepeople who read a lot and we're
smart.
So it's like how many peopleskipped prologues for so long?
So at the have to make sense ifyou cut it off because some
people might not read it.
And in my story at the very end,something from the prologue like

(07:07):
comes back and it's supposed tobe this moment of like, Oh, but
I don't know if that's going tobe okay.
Right.
Right.
So, um, I'm going to ask himtomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
I'm going to make a mental note to ask my professor
tomorrow.
Um, in this assignment, whichone would he prefer?
Yeah.
You know, because I, I thinkthat it should have to be
chapter one, which is why I readthat first.

SPEAKER_02 (07:30):
Yeah.
But chapter one didn't to me inthat book did not do the
business that the first, thefirst few lines should.
So the things for me about that,and obviously we want to hear
your thoughts, it's your book,um, is that it introduces way
too many people and too manylike titles, um, Also, I think

(07:54):
it's epistolary.
So I think it's a article from,it's supposed to be an article
from a newspaper or something.
Is it?
I don't know.
I was just like, I just feltvery confused and disoriented.
Whereas the first, the firstbook, paragraph from the

(08:16):
prologue it was like it reallyput me in a place in time like I
could taste the maraschinocherries sure I could feel the
sweat on my brow from shootingthe doves and yeah you're on the
bayou yeah I'm on the bayou I Ithought it was gorgeous like
absolutely gorgeous the way thatshe wrote that what's her name
who is that the author oh goshthat's a good question um I want

(08:38):
to reread that book actually soshe oh it's showing me the movie
which is bullshit the movie Themovie really is not worth it,
truly.
It's also showing me the movie.
Rebecca Wells.
Yes,

SPEAKER_03 (08:53):
there

SPEAKER_02 (08:55):
you go.
In 2002.
Okay.
No, that's when the movie cameout.
Oh, shit.
Yeah.
I was going to say, no, I wasyounger than 2002, for sure.
Divine Secrets of the YayaSisterhood on Amazon.
Here we go.
Oh, there's three books.
Did you read all three books?
I read at least the first two.
I

SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
must have read the three.
I loved it so much.
Let's see.
Rebecca Wells.
What year did it come out?

SPEAKER_02 (09:26):
Well, October 16th, 1998.
It came out on my birthday.
That's your birthday?
Yeah.
I mean, not 1998, obviously,but...
Yeah.
So what?
You were like...
I was 13.
Do you want to give away age?
You were 13.
In

SPEAKER_01 (09:41):
1980.

SPEAKER_02 (09:42):
Oh my gosh.
1998.
13.
What a great year to read abook.
Totally.
I mean, those are the books thatreally shape you, I feel like,
is those special ones from 13.
It's true.
And you weren't reading fuckingSweet Valley High.
You were reading this Yaya BayouSisterhood stuff.
I had a complicated relationshipwith my mom.
Oh.

SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yeah.
I...
So these types of books, I feltvery seen, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (10:05):
What were your notes about the first paragraphs that
you were going to share withyour class or whatever?
Oh, I didn't really have notesnecessarily.
The assignment was findparagraphs and just,

SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
like, did it capture you?
Like, is it the type ofparagraph that wanted you to
keep reading?
And I would say yes for thatone.
I was like, oh, well, this is,like...
Let's see.
Tap dancing child.
I mean, like, her

SPEAKER_02 (10:37):
being deceived by this journalist.
I definitely remember beinglike, what the fuck is
happening?
Honestly, I'm curious if I hadread the prologue at that time.
Or I know I've read the book somany times.
Maybe I just...
What was that very first line?
The tap dancing, tap dancing,child abuser.
That's what the Sunday New Yorktimes from March 8th, 1993 had

(11:00):
called Vivi.
Wow.
That's, I mean, that's a goodfirst line.
It is.
It's a good first line.
Yeah.
Um, I mean, I think actually ifyou were, so I read two
paragraphs actually, now thatI'm thinking about it.
And if you just cut it off atthe first paragraph, um, The
leisure

SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
art section lay scattered on the floor next to
Sita as she curled up on thebed, covers pulled tightly
around her, portable phone onthe pillow next to her head.
Like, that's a great littlesnapshot.
This was written, you assume,like, did she write this?
You know, like, was this writtenabout her?

(11:40):
Is she the tap dancing childabuser?
Like...
She's curled up, covers tightlypulled around so clearly she's
in distress.
It leaves you with a good amountof questions.
I wish I had just read that

SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
first paragraph properly.

SPEAKER_01 (11:55):
Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 (11:58):
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
So, so you like it?
I like it.
It's giving, um, it's plantingquestions in your mind that
makes you want to keep onturning the pages.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
What's yours?
Um, so I'm going to read from,this is a new book, which I
pre-ordered.
I'm always so proud of myselfwhen I pre-order books from my

(12:20):
favorite authors, because forone thing that helps them get on
the like New York times.
Sure.
Yeah.
And for another thing, sometimesyou'll get the book in your hand
before it even hits the shelvesin like Barnes& Noble.
And that makes me feel verycool.
So this is Vanishing World bySayaka Murata.
She wrote Convenience StoreWoman and Earthlings.

(12:45):
And she's amazing.
She's like wonderfully weird.
And she does a lot of likespeculative stuff.
So this book is...
bonkers and it takes place ineither the future or an
alternative world where peopledon't raise their own offspring

(13:06):
like women give birth tochildren but then they get put
into these child centers andthey all get raised in a certain
way and then the community menand women both every child calls
every man and woman mother andAnd every man and woman is
supposed to mother the childrenwhenever they see them and
shower them in love andaffection.

(13:27):
And husbands and wives, sleepingwith your husband, having sex
with your husband is consideredincest.
What in the world?
And the way to get pregnant isthrough artificial insemination
has become like very clean andlike efficient.

(13:50):
And when people have sex, onlylike 10% of the population even
has sex and they don't have sexfor like making babies.
They just have sex for pleasure,but it's considered like The
right thing to do is tomasturbate, not to like really
have sex.
It's not illegal to have sex,but it's frowned upon.
Yeah.

(14:10):
Okay.
So it's like a crazy.
Yeah.
So the first, so the prologuefor this one, I definitely don't
think is, I don't know.
I'm just going to do the firsttwo little paragraphs.

UNKNOWN (14:24):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (14:25):
Until I went to elementary school, I lived
entirely in a world my motherhad created.
I did go to daycare, but I don'tremember much about it.
What comes to mind when I thinkback to that time is the small
old wooden house in Chiba whereI lived with my mother, just the
two of us.
It's very simple.
Very.

(14:45):
Simple language.
I mean, this has been translatedfrom the Japanese, but I don't
know that it like necessarilygrips me.
No.
But it's very easy to read.
So it doesn't make me feel like,oh, I'm going to like that one.
The one that you just read fromthe Yaya Sisterhood.

(15:06):
It made me feel nervous that Iwas getting into this, that I
wasn't going to be able tofollow it, that It was going to
take a lot of work for me tolike deal with.
But this one I'd be like, Icould read, this isn't the type
of book that I would put downafter a few paragraphs.
It's like, I would give it ashot.
I wouldn't read like at least afew chapters because you can

(15:29):
just whiz through them sure likeit just yeah

SPEAKER_01 (15:31):
although the first sentence all by itself is like
what raises its own questionsuntil I went to elementary
school I lived entirely in aworld my mother had created yeah
I mean that sets that sets somestuff up right there

SPEAKER_02 (15:43):
yeah it does okay it's like you didn't have a
community obviously right and isyour mom crazy yeah is she not
like what does this mean whatwas the world that she created

SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
right mm-hmm for you like a homeschool a little you
know or as before elementaryschool but like you know there's
your mom can create any kind ofworld for you

SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
which is freaky

SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
yeah I mean we really have that power as moms
to just until you go to schoolmoms can do whatever they want
that's true I mean

SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
this the parent at home yeah Rachel come on come

SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
on come on

SPEAKER_02 (16:24):
okay what's your next one

SPEAKER_01 (16:25):
okay

SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
Oh, well, do you have

SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
anything else to add about that one?
I

SPEAKER_02 (16:28):
don't want to cut

SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
you

SPEAKER_02 (16:29):
off.
Um, no, I don't.
I think, um, I love her writingand I love the simplicity of it.
Um, yeah, it's like you couldnever accuse Murata of purple
prose.
Um, she's just...
Wait, can you explain purpleprose?
Oh, purple prose.
Yeah.

(16:49):
So that's when you are likeoverly, um, like...
you embellish everything somuch.
Like there's like all theseadjectives and all of these like
beautiful metaphors.
And you're just, you're justgoing, going, going like these
long sentences that like, youknow, I think sometimes probably

(17:12):
this Thorns and Roses lady mighthave

SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
a little bit of some purple.
So you mean the Court of Thorns

SPEAKER_02 (17:17):
and Roses?
Yeah, yeah.
When she's like, oh.
I feel like we're hot.
We're like fuchsia.
Or magenta.
What's the color?
We are eggplant.
Yeah, eggplant.
There we go.
Eggplant over there.
So, yeah.
Which some people love that.
Like, love.
Sometimes literary fiction.

(17:37):
is more likely to have these,like, beautiful sentences.
And I think it can work whenthey're, you know, when they're
timely, when they're, like,inserted in the right place,
like, here and there.
But overall, when I'm reading, Iwant things to be, like, very
clear and to the point.
And moving.
Yeah, and moving.
Moving forward.
Sort of, like, minimal, but,like, beautiful in that way.

(17:58):
And she's really, really good atthat.

SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
Yeah, I would say the first paragraphs of that
book, Vanishing World,definitely move you...
You're moving forward.
Like, you...
you're getting somewhereimmediately.
Whereas, whereas in the divinesecrets, it's your, you are,
they're setting a scene.
Whereas this is already, you're,you're already

SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
on the walk.
Right, right.
It's like narrative rather thanshe's looking back rather than
you're putting you right inscene like your book.
Maybe I should read a bit of theprologue from this book.
Oh, look at this prologue.
Cause I was like, yo, like Idon't want to read this
prologue.
Um, I mean for this, but becausewe're kind of discussing that,

(18:38):
Sure.
This is part of the beginning ofher prologue.
Aren't we kind of the oppositeof Adam and Eve, a boyfriend
once asked me long ago?
I was 20 years old and had takenthis boyfriend home at a time
when I knew nobody would be in.
I'd been dozing off in sheetsthat were infused with our body
heat and opened my eyes a crackas this curious question came

(19:00):
fluttering down along with thesound of the rain outside.
So...
that was a little bit likebeautiful the way she wrote
that, you know, like a questioncoming fluttering down, like
with the sound of the rain.
Um, but yeah, what would, Iguess that, that is cure

(19:21):
curiosity inducing.
Cause it's like, why, why wouldyou be the opposite of Adam and
Eve?
What would that mean?
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (19:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
Okay, cool.
So what was your next one?
Okay, my next one is The Push,

SPEAKER_01 (19:34):
which was a book that we read for our book group
a few years ago, in case ithasn't been obvious thus far.
Kayla and I are part of a bookgroup with a larger group of
women, and we read everythingfrom...
We've read a few memoirs.
We've read...

SPEAKER_02 (19:53):
Sci-fi even?
A little sci-fi.

SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
Most people kind of poo-poo sci-fi in our group.

SPEAKER_02 (20:00):
But, I mean, we read a pretty wide range, I'd say.
Some rom-coms, some...
Anything but fantasy, really, inthe grand scheme of things.
Yeah, we haven't read anyfantasy.
No.
We had to do that on our own.
Okay,

SPEAKER_01 (20:15):
but The Push was...
a core shaking book in our groupit was we read it at a time when
all of us were pretty in thethick of postpartum in some way
or another and um i highlyrecommend reading the push it
was one of the ones that reallysticks with our entire group to

(20:37):
this day um and if you have justhad a baby reader beware it's a
little

SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
um freaky yeah it's not quite a thriller but oh it's
i'm like shuddering it's like soum definitely triggering yes but
um

SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
i mean i i I distinctly remember when I was
getting towards the end of thebook, it was so anxiety
provoking for me that I woke upat 4am and got on my Peloton and
was like just writing andlistening to it because I was
like, I can't, if I stop movingwhile I'm listening to this, I
would probably just startshaking.
Like it was, I was so anxiouswhile reading it or listening to

(21:22):
it.
Okay.
So here's how this one starts.
It is often said that the firstsound we hear in the womb is our
mother's heartbeat.
Actually, the first sound tovibrate our newly developed
hearing apparatus is the pulseof our mother's blood through
her veins and arteries.
We vibrate to that primordialrhythm even before we have ears

(21:43):
to hear.
Before we were conceived, weexisted as part of an egg in our
mother's ovary.
All the eggs a woman will evercarry form in her ovaries while
she is a four-month-old fetus inthe womb of her mother.
This means our cellular life asan egg begins in the womb of our
grandmother.
Each of us spent five months inour grandmother's womb, and she

(22:06):
in turn formed within the wombof her grandmother.
And it keeps going.
But...
Oh, wait.
No, no.
Hold on.
It wasn't that bad.
Okay.
And she in turn formed withinthe womb of her grandmother.
We vibrate to the rhythms of ourmother's blood before she

(22:27):
herself is born.

SPEAKER_02 (22:29):
Wait, no, wait.
That's not it.
Oh.
Yeah.
Because we're an egg in her.
Well, no, no.
Lane

SPEAKER_01 (22:36):
Redmond when the drummers were women.

SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
Oh, shit.
Oh, shit.
That's something she put at thebeginning of her book.
Oh no, what's chapter one?
Wait, what's all this?
Should we clap?
Yeah, we should probably.
Sorry, I assumed that it wasshowing from her book, but oh

(23:01):
fuck.
So she just put that excerpt in.
Hold on.

UNKNOWN (23:08):
Oh, there it is.

SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
Is there really?
Oh, good, right?
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, so do you want to keepthat part in?
No, I think we should clap itout.
Okay, so let's clap it out.
Okay, so our book group read ThePush, and here it goes.
Your house glows at night likeeverything inside is on

SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
fire.
The drapes she chose for thewindows look like linen,
expensive linen.
The weave is loose enough that Ican usually read your mood.
I can watch the girl flip herponytail while she finishes
homework.
I can watch the little boy tosstennis balls

SPEAKER_02 (23:44):
at the 12-foot ceiling while your wife lunges
around the living room inleggings, reversing the day's
mess.
Toys back in the basket, pillowsback on the couch.

UNKNOWN (23:56):
Ah!

SPEAKER_02 (23:57):
Dude, knowing how it ends.
Yeah.
I don't

SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
remember that first paragraph.
No.
And I don't remember that italludes to the fact that she had
been watching that family.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:11):
Oh, I just got chills again.
That book was wild.
It was wild.
It was, that is chilling as fuckknowing what happens.
I hated that book and I love itso much.
I know.
I can't believe I couldn't findit.
Rachel was like, hey, do youhave the hard copy?
And I'm like, yeah, of course.
It's like one of my favoritebooks.
And then I looked at mybookshelf and it wasn't there.

(24:32):
I must have given it to someone,but I don't know who.
It's kind of a weird gift.
I mean, it was such a good book,though.
I know I've recommended it topeople, so that's probably what
happened.
Yeah, I probably gave it tosomeone.
Oh man.
Okay.
So, but say we didn't know whathappens.
Sure.
I'd be like, oh wow, thiswoman's a stalker.
She's like looking throughpeople, looking at people

(24:54):
through the window and sheclearly knows this man.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
And she's watching his family.

UNKNOWN (24:59):
And she's watching the wife and everything.

SPEAKER_01 (25:01):
And she like refers to the girl flipping her
ponytail and the, and then thelittle boy tossing tennis balls.
I'm like, oh.

SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
It's just creepy.
Yeah.
yeah it is so creepy so that's areally good like on on brand
like it's it matches the tonethe rest of the book and it also
it's very cool to have somethingthat if you go back to the
second time it just gives youchills and like your mouth falls

(25:31):
open you're like i i wouldn'thave known who this was until
basically like maybe two-thirdsof the way through the

SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
book

SPEAKER_02 (25:39):
totally

SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
Yeah.
Okay, so now going, since wehave been talking about
prologues before, or after we'veread the first paragraph, the
full prologue of this book isall about how you hear your
mother's heartbeat.
You come from your mother's eggthat has been in her body, was
in her grandmother's body, andthen that perfectly sums up the

(26:03):
push in, like, she's questioningthe whole time, like...
Is this me?
Is this my daughter?
Is this, like, what ishappening?

SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
Yes.
So a major question in thisbook, The Push, is, like, nature
versus nurture.
There's a child in the book who,you know, as the reader, you
have to decide, is this childreally evil?
And if the child is evil, is itbecause, like, the grandmother
was evil?

(26:33):
Mm-hmm.
was it sort of like passed downgenetically or is the child
reacting to her mother beingneglectful or

SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
has the woman been imagining her whole time

SPEAKER_02 (26:48):
yeah or is the woman going through this postpartum
psychosis where she's shebelieves that her daughter is
evil when really she's just likea kid being a kid um so for her
prologue to talk about how whenlike how your your egg first
came to be inside your mother'sbody when it was a four month

(27:13):
old fetus so your motherdeveloped an egg for you when
she was inside your grandmotherso you were inside your
grandmother for like five monthswhich means the pulses of her
stress levels and blood and allof that

SPEAKER_01 (27:27):
affected your creation

SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
yes and that they actually have really really
interesting studies about thathow like it's fascinating it's
fascinating how like if a motherwas was in a really stressful
like a war-torn country and shewas starving and stuff like that
your grandmother like you mightbe like have a way more of a

(27:49):
propensity to become obese yourbody might hold on to like fat
and calories more than someoneelse because your genes figured
out that there was like scarcityfrom your grandmother's life.

SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
It's so fascinating.
Yeah.
I like, I hate that and I loveit so much.
Humans

SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
are wild.
Yeah.
I think that, yeah.
So that, okay.
So Ashley Drain, that example, Ithink that was a masterpiece.
I

SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
truly do.
Yes.
If we still have such visceralreaction to this day, I mean, we
read that when I was living in,in Sonoma while we were
remodeling this house which wasover three years ago so we had
to have read that book fouryears ago and still have this
visceral overreaction

SPEAKER_02 (28:40):
yeah I think that if it was four years ago Cassidy
would have been an infant right

SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
and Graham

SPEAKER_02 (28:47):
wasn't

SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Graham was one

SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
he had he turned

SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
two when we lived there so he would have been

SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
one and a half so yeah whoa so yeah when you said
that a lot of us were like stillin the postpartum phase I was
like oh I don't think I was butNow that you mentioned it, I'm
like, damn, I was eitherpregnant or, like, had a new
baby.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think you had just hadCassidy, if I remember
correctly.
So, okay, yeah, what's yournext?

(29:11):
I'll do this one because theother one is too similar.
So this is The Secret History byDonna Tartt.
It came out, I believe, in the90s, but it's had a major
resurgence on BookTok.
It's basically like the epitomeof dark academia.

(29:32):
And I don't remember that muchthat happens in this because I
read it so ass long ago, but...
yeah it's like it's like a groupof of new adult friends who are
living at a university and umYeah, it's dark.

(29:54):
There's sort of like a whodunitkind of death situation, I
think.

SPEAKER_00 (29:58):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (29:59):
And Donna Tartt is a master.
She takes 10 years to write eachof her books.
Wow.
And we all just wait on theedges of our seats with bated
breath.
She also wrote The Goldfinch.
So she has a prologue.
Okay, well, let's read thechapter and then come back to
the prologue.
Okay.
So her prologue, or no, sorry,chapter one.

(30:21):
Does such a thing as the fatalflaw, that showy dark crack
running down the middle of alife, exist outside literature?
I used to think it didn't.
Now I think it does.
And I think that mine is this amorbid longing for the
picturesque at all costs.

SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Hmm.
A little confusing in allhonesty.
Like I'm like, Oh my goodness,where is this going to go?

SPEAKER_02 (30:44):
Yeah.
So she's saying that the, thefatal flaw was just something
that you read about in books.
Right.
She's actually pretty convincedthat, or yeah, I think it's a
female, but I actually forget ifthe narrator's male or female,
but so this character is, longsfor the picturesque and her
longing is morbid and she longsfor it at all costs yeah

SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
I mean, there's so many questions.

UNKNOWN (31:11):
At all costs.

SPEAKER_02 (31:13):
Like, you want to be sitting on a porch looking out
over, like, a grand vista or,like, an ocean scene, like a
sunset with, like, the perfect,like, drink and lover next to
you, like, at all costs.
Like, you want it to look good.
Like, that picturesque means itlooks good.

(31:34):
I assume.
I mean, that's how I read that.
Yeah.
Or hear that.
She wrote this before, like,people said Instagram
Instagrammable, but I feel likethat's kind of what she's
saying.
This person wants her life to beInstagrammable at all costs or
his life.
I forget.
So that's weird.
Um, there's like a unlikablenarrator probably from this,

(31:56):
from jump.
Okay.
Let's do it.
So now here's the prologue.
The snow in the mountains wasmelting, and Bunny had been dead
for several weeks before we cameto understand the gravity of our
situation.
He'd been dead for 10 daysbefore they found him, you know.
It was one of the biggestmanhunts in Vermont history.
State troopers, the FBI, even anarmy helicopter.

(32:19):
The college closed, the dyefactory in Hampton shut down,
people coming from NewHampshire, upstate New York, as
far away as Boston.
Wow.
Okay.
Shit's getting real.
Yeah.
Clear.
Or, I mean, has gotten real.
Shit was real.
Shit was real.
So it's like her prologue islike one and a half pages.

(32:39):
And it's saying that thesepeople are in trouble a few
weeks after Bunny had been dead.
So it seems like they knew hewas dead, but other people
didn't really.
But then once it becomes clearthat he's dead...
it's a big fucking deal.
And they're like, oh shit.

(32:59):
They didn't realize it would besuch a big deal that Bunny was
dead.
But it is.
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah.
This is a masterpiece and it hasa...
I don't even know if it's a cultfollowing when so many people
love it so much, but...
Can I borrow it?
Yeah, sure.
I'll leave it here.
Perfect.
Give it to me.
Put it in my hot little handsright now.

(33:22):
So, I mean...
I don't know.
I think that that's enticing.

SPEAKER_01 (33:27):
It's enticing.
Yeah.
Um, I feel like I'm left withmore questions than answers by
those paragraphs and I, in a waythat it's like, okay, I could
keep going with this.

SPEAKER_02 (33:36):
Yeah.
You've got to have questions.

SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
And it's interesting the difference in like scene
setting or just like raising abunch of questions like in this
one.
Um, or just like, let's go for awalk together.
Like in the, the vanishing worldone.
Oh yeah.
You know, like they'redefinitely different types of
lead ins.
Yes.
That are all effective.

SPEAKER_02 (33:56):
Yeah.
And sometimes I feel like withthese, like with classes and
courses about how to getpublished and stuff like that,
it's like they'll say that thevery first line has to like grab
you and make you want to readthe rest of the book or else an
agent or an editor will just putit down.
Sometimes I feel like when afirst line is too like snappy or

(34:19):
good, like say the first linewas...
I'm a nightmare dressed as adaydream.
One of Taylor Swift's

SPEAKER_03 (34:26):
favorites.
I was going

SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
to say, isn't that a song?
It's her favorite line she'sever written.
Say That was not written byTaylor Swift.
That was the first line of,baby, I'm a nightmare dressed
like a daydream.
I would be like, okay, that isso snappy.
That is so cool and fun,whatever.
But I feel a little bitmanipulated when the first

(34:47):
paragraph is so...
like almost like marketing.
Sure.
You know?
Yeah, I can see

SPEAKER_01 (34:54):
that.
That means you have a lot tolive up to if you're going to
start that way.

SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So unless you're going to beslapping people in the face left
and right,

SPEAKER_01 (35:04):
like how do you, you have, I mean, you would have to
have a real powerful, thinghappening after that one line

SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
yeah it has to be like super voicey all throughout
with lots of zingers like whenpeople start with a zinger I get
kind of annoyed so that's why Ikind of like the quiet
confidence of the Sayaka Muratafirst lines because it's like
she's like bitch you know I'mgonna take you there you read
the convenience store woman andearthlings and you are just

(35:31):
salivating for my next bookbitch

SPEAKER_01 (35:33):
so yeah she owns

SPEAKER_02 (35:36):
you

SPEAKER_01 (35:36):
she knows okay so now we I'll talk about your
shirt story and reactions to itbecause what was your first
paragraph?

SPEAKER_02 (35:46):
Oh, it's not that good.
Maybe it was.
This is so the first twoparagraphs of my short story are
the ones that I want to reworkbecause one of my friends,
Blair, who's a writer that Ireally respect.
She kind of mentioned like maybeI could like show these things.

(36:06):
But the first line is.
So basically, the reason whyI...
put this there was because Iwanted the narrator to be

(36:29):
likable at first.
She's a very complicated type ofcharacter.
She's not super attractive andshe isn't a great therapist
actually to this young man.
So I'm like, I don't want peopleto be glad if she falls off a

(36:49):
cliff or something.
I want her to be complicated,but I want her to actually also
have good qualities.
So to me, that shows goodqualities.
She stays around at nightbecause she thinks that...
She's serving, like, a bunch ofpeople who need therapy who
can't come in during the day.

SPEAKER_01 (37:05):
Well, hold on.
I

SPEAKER_02 (37:07):
like that first paragraph.

SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
Oh, you do?
I'm going to disagree with yourfriend.
Okay.
Okay.
Because, so, we were justtalking to my husband before we
started recording, and one ofthe things that he said was that
further on, maybe lightingshould have come into play.
Lighting did come into play.
It's evening hours.
So, like, it actually sets it upin a really...

(37:30):
a great way.
I think that it does make herlikable and, uh, she has a full
patient list and like the, Imean, I, I, I like it.
I think it sets her up

SPEAKER_02 (37:43):
in a good way.
And I don't think that, whatelse are you going to show?
You're sort of like in the scenewhere you're like, okay, it's
nighttime and I'm at, I'm withthe therapist in a building

SPEAKER_01 (37:53):
and no one else is there.
Yeah.
And nobody else is there,

SPEAKER_02 (37:55):
which I think is

SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
important.

SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
I mean, that is understood.
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (37:59):
Bye.

SPEAKER_02 (38:00):
She's the only one who keeps the evening hours And

(38:31):
we went to a nice, beautifuldinner.
And then we decided to hit upthis dive bar that we used to go
to before we had kids.
It's called The Swingin' Door.
And on Saturday nights, theyhave dueling pianos, which is so
fun.
But they didn't have duelingpianos that night.
So we just sat out on the patio.
And I said, Sean, will you readmy story to me out loud?

(38:55):
We had literally been on twoother dates that week.
And I was kind of like, what arewe, what are we even talking
about?
Like, I'm like, do we reallyneed another date this week?
But anyways, and I realized itwas time.
Like he's never, he supported meso much.
He's never, I don't think he'sever read a thing I've written,

(39:17):
a creative writing thing thatI've written.
So, and I had had enough, I hadhad some whiskey, so I was sort
of ready for whatever was tocome.
And so I gave him my phone andhe read this out loud to me and
then I got his reaction.
So I'll read you the first partand it's about a certain

(39:38):
character and I'll tell you whatSean thought about that.
So Clayton is a rakish 25 yearold man who pays$270 out of
pocket to sit in my office whereI try to figure out if he's
lying to himself or just me.
At first I found his behaviortoward women creepy if not truly
alarming but over the last sixmonths he has won me over.

(39:59):
He loves women deeply andrecklessly in a way that only
exists in the romance novels ofthe 1980s that I pluck from
thrift store shelves.
Even if I could share thedetails of our sessions I would
never admit to anyone that heturns me on yes he's stalkerish
he's very problematic stillsometimes i wish i was the

(40:21):
object of his desire ridiculousi know i'm a woman in her 50s
with a mole on her neck and titsthat take an industrial size bra
to hike up off her stomach stillthe erotic part of my brain has
not atrophied life is short i'vegot to squeeze a little mischief
and sensuality from somewherequestions are normally all i
give to clayton he isn't muchfor psychological He won't fill

(40:44):
any of the prescriptions heneeds.
I choose not to push.
I keep him comfortable so hekeeps coming back.
Plus, he pays cash and doesn'task for a receipt.
I can read between the lines.
She wanted me to come over, hesays.
What did she text back, I ask.
She didn't.
I stand and open the officewindow.
The room is muggy.

(41:05):
The streetlights in the parkinglot pop on in the dusk.
Are there lines to read betweenif she didn't text anything to
you, I ask?
The in-between was all I had togo on.
My girl has different kinds ofsilences, and the silence this
morning meant that she wanted meto come by.
She wouldn't have left herlocation sharing turned on if
she didn't want me to know whereshe parked.

(41:27):
I suppress a grimace and take asip of my tea.
And how did she react when youshowed up at her van?
What time did you say it was?
It was 5 a.m.
She was, you know, I said, comeon out here.
I said, well, you're up now,aren't you?
My daughter, Casey, had beentalking about buying a van for
weeks.
She showed me Instagram postsunder hashtag van life, images

(41:50):
of thin bohemian couplesdrifting around America,
documenting their poeticjourneys of self-discovery,
believing they were shirkinglate stage capitalism.
She said, Mama, I can make moneyjust by chronicling a summer
road trip.
She was Gen Z-splaining to me,but I knew what an influencer
was.
I don't know if I should readall this or just skip to the

(42:11):
more Clayton-y parts.

SPEAKER_01 (42:12):
I think you should skip.

SPEAKER_02 (42:13):
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm going to clap and then I'llknow to cut that part out.
Okay.
The story of Clayton's...
Clayton had a type.
Oh, I'll just say Clayton hada...
I don't...
I don't...
I can't remember.
Okay.
Okay.
Then a little bit later in thestory, I just want to share...
Oh.

(42:35):
Okay, sidebar, I'm going to skipahead in the story just so that
I can explain more about, skipto where I'm talking about
Clayton's character.
Okay, so I'm going to continuenow.
I can't remember which woman hewas talking about just now, but
Clayton had a type.
Older women who were down ontheir luck.
Mommy issues.
I offer him a rare nugget oftruth.

(42:57):
Humans are actually really badat guessing what others are
thinking and feeling.
Does that resonate with you?
Clayton scratches the scruff onhis cheek.
Most people don't know their assfrom their ankles.
But someone like me, when I havea divine connection with a
woman, I can hear her thoughts.
I can feel her feelings.
I'm an empath.
It's like a gift, especially ifI've made love to them.

(43:19):
Sex creates a soul tie.
It's in the Bible.
All the holy books say it.
I almost laugh.
Do the women Clayton courts fallfor this crap?
This was always theuncomfortable part of Clayton's
stories.
When the woman resists and Idon't know if she will succumb,
I shift in my chair.
Blah, blah, blah.

(43:40):
Okay, and then Clayton talksagain.
Then she let me have the keysand I drove her around a bit.
Windows down, sunrise, air in myhair.
I nod.
I like it when his stories takeon this melodic stream of
consciousness style.
He goes on.
I said, buckle up, we're goingto Tijuana.
My eyes widen.
You went to Mexico together?
On a whim?

(44:00):
He chuckles.
Dr.
Nelson, I'm here, aren't I?
I wanted her to think I wastaking her to Tijuana so that
when we got to the hills, itwouldn't seem so far.
I think this guy needs therapy.
Then I remember that's exactlywhat he's doing here.
I should really refer him tosomeone else.
I will, tomorrow.
Time's up, no?
He gestures to the clock on thewall.

(44:21):
Time is up.
I won't hear the spicy part.
You want me to tell the rest,don't you, Doctor?
Maybe you should start paying meinstead of the other way around.
My nostrils feel tight.
Blah, blah, blah, because she'slike, um...
Yeah, and then Clayton istalking more.
He goes, this is the funny part.
She was hollering back there,and I told her, I'm putting on

(44:43):
Bohemian Rhapsody, and it'llsound like you're singing
karaoke.
I said, and before you ask, I'mnot playing any of that Swifty
shit.
I lean over my chair and scanthe carpet for my earring.
He continues.
It worked.
It was like background vocals.
Mama.
He's singing now.
He's acting strange.
He should go.
And then there's just this partwhere the narrator loses her

(45:08):
earring.
And then Clayton.
crawls toward her and hands heran earring.
She says, thanks.
And she's on her knees and sheputs in her earring and he says,
you look good like that.
And he says, with earrings on ordown on my knees?
So Yeah, he says he's going toleave and then he keeps singing

(45:31):
Bohemian Rhapsody as he leaves.
Mama, ooh, didn't mean to makeyou cry.
If I'm not back again this timetomorrow.
Yeah, and then she sees her nextclient and her next client is
obviously got a bad vibe fromhim.
Okay, so that's Clayton, thecharacter, right?
Yeah.
And then more stuff happens.

(45:53):
And when Sean was done reading,when my husband was done reading
the short story he said that itwas really good very twisty like
he liked it um and we had bothbeen drinking and stuff and he
he said that um like later inthe story when clayton turns

(46:13):
violent um my husband said thatlike he didn't think it seemed
like warranted like it seemed tokind of like come out of nowhere
for sean and And I was like, areyou for real?
Yeah.
And he just said that what Seansaid was like, yeah, I found

(46:38):
Clayton creepy.
But I can imagine, you know, somany incel type guys that.
you know getting things wrongthinking somebody likes them
that doesn't like them and youknow going to their house and
thinking they're in arelationship when they're really
not and just being being idiotsand getting things wrong and it

(47:01):
being creepy and not the bestbut that it doesn't mean that
the person would end up being aviolent person.
And so it's not really, itwasn't super believable.
There's also the fact that atthe end of the story, when
Clayton does get violent, it'snot exactly provoked in the
scene.
It's almost like he's beingviolent for violence sake.

(47:24):
Like he wants to hurt somebody,not that like he snaps,

SPEAKER_01 (47:28):
right?
I feel like the provocation ishappening.
I feel like it is happening.

SPEAKER_02 (47:34):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
I mean, it's an interesting take that Sean has.
Yes.
I read it very much as theprovocation has been happening.
Right.
Yes.
And the whole Bohemian Rhapsody,like, I feel like it all

SPEAKER_02 (47:51):
ties in just so.
Yeah.
That's showing the provocation.
Like, that he has a problem withher.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, um, to me, if, to me, likesomebody saying, uh, or a man
saying something like, oh, youknow, she didn't text me back,
but I can read between thelines.

(48:11):
Like, I know that she just, shewanted me to come over.
So I'm going to come over there.
Right.
And then somebody coming over tomy van where I live at five in
the morning and, um, banging onthe door and hollering for me to
come out to me that is that isvery scary like the things the
way that Clayton is talking tome is like really really scary

(48:33):
yeah and um for like a man tojust knowing that a man might
interpret that as like okay likehe's just a weirdo like you know
it's like oh my gosh that givesme like the creeps and I sort of
said to Sean I was like you knowlike when I was younger a lot of
and I told you this on the podthe other day like a lot of

(48:54):
fucked up stuff happened to meum in terms of like my
relationships with guys or justbad run-ins at parties or just
whatever it is um And that'ssomething that I explore in my
work.
Yeah.
Um, but just, yeah.
And then we asked, um, Rachel'shusband what his take was.

(49:15):
And I was like, oh, maybe he'llhave a similar take.
I

SPEAKER_01 (49:18):
kind of assumed he'd have a similar take.
Um, but I think that that was myown mistrust of men because I
often think that men co-signeach other's bullshit.
And so no, no offense to Sean,but like, that's what I was,
that's how I took his hisreaction was like another guy

(49:38):
co-signing other men's bullshitlike don't ask don't tell it's
not my business like this menexcusing each other and

SPEAKER_02 (49:49):
My husband's reaction was surprisingly not
that.
Should we play it into thespeaker or just add it in later?
Whichever.
I don't know how that wouldwork.
Well, let's play it now so wecan react to it.
And then I might take it out andthen paste like a better version
on just right there.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Sure.
Okay.
So we'll play Mark's reaction.
We're like pitting our husbandsagainst each other in Mark one.

(50:13):
Good thing.
Okay.
Okay.
Ready?
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (50:18):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (50:19):
Okay, so Mark, you just finished reading my first
short story I've ever written,Hashtag Van Life.
And I was wondering about theguy Clayton in the story.
What was your impression ofClayton?

SPEAKER_00 (50:40):
He's a fucking creep.
He's like a serial killer.

SPEAKER_02 (50:44):
Yeah, okay.
Did you know he was a creepsince the beginning of the
story?
Or at what point did you realizehe was a creep?

SPEAKER_00 (50:51):
From the very beginning.

SPEAKER_02 (50:52):
Okay, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (50:54):
Like, he creeped me out at the start.
It was when he was, like, in theappointment with the therapist.
Well, it's kind of set up thatway, but then also...
When he

SPEAKER_01 (51:11):
says, it

SPEAKER_00 (51:12):
was like the second page when he's like, there's
lines to read between the personwho takes him back.
It's like, no, there's not.
There are no lines to readbetween.
That person doesn't want to seeyou.

SPEAKER_02 (51:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:21):
Like, why are you inventing this?

SPEAKER_02 (51:23):
Yes.
Oh my God.
Okay, great.
Love it.
Okay.
I got our answer.
We're done.
Okay.
And then, okay.
So was it when he, at the end,when he becomes violent, um, Did
you feel like that was sort oflike in line with his character?
Like sort of like, oh, okay,yeah, I thought he was a creep.

SPEAKER_00 (51:44):
He would do something like that?
Not entirely.
I thought at first I was like,he's a creep, probably a serial
killer.
But then when it's like, I thinkit was not surprising that he
did it, but I was surprised thatthe daughter was in on it.

SPEAKER_02 (51:59):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (51:59):
Because that was fucked up.

SPEAKER_02 (52:02):
Okay, oh my God, I love it.
Thank you so much, Mark.
All right.
Oh my gosh, okay, sorry, we'restill recording.
I love Mark, but Mark is alsosuch an ally.
I've seen it time and time againwith him and supporting the
causes that you support.
Yeah, he's a good person.

(52:23):
now that Sean's not a goodperson if Sean ever listens to
this he's going to be mortifiedbut he was basically what Sean
was trying to do was to hewanted to help me build like
consistency I think and to helpme build in yeah just make sure
that the characters motivationsjust made sense and just really

(52:46):
landed and so he was just tryingto give me a few more lines like
at the end to make it seem like

UNKNOWN (52:53):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (52:53):
just to make Clayton's actions more
believable.
Where to me, the setup in thetherapist's office was just like
really scary.
And I could imagine womenreading it as very scary, but
it's interesting that a mandoesn't.
But with that being said, likehe and I had a conversation

(53:15):
about it and he totally likeagreed and he's amazing.
And he knows the things thatI've been through.
And then he offered, and thenSean offered to, to read my
book.
Okay.
Well, that's great.
But he's just like, I'm like, Idon't think you're going to it's
reading a whole ass book rightyeah and he doesn't really read

(53:36):
books right now like he'lllisten to them on audiobook but
he doesn't have time to like sitthere and read a book
necessarily um but he said hewould like for me to like if i
thought it would be helpful umand i was like i think you're
gonna find it like boring andhe's like no i know it's not for
me because it really is it'skind of like a women's fiction

(53:56):
kind of thing um but he saidthat he might be able to help
like with things like that likecan consistency in things and
I'm like oh I don't know if Ireally want to go there with him
but there is this one scene inthe book where it's basically
like a car chase and there's allthese different streets and
Angie our friend who was aneditor for the Washington Post

(54:16):
who edited my book for me thatchapter it's like she couldn't
even really give me strong notesbecause she's just like I don't
know where I am like I don'tknow why this street goes into
this street I thought they werein this building like it's like
I I wasn't able to write it in away that okay I have them in my
head that I've made up but forsome reason I'm not able to
write it well and I think thatSean would probably be amazing

(54:39):
for that okay well that's greatyeah so I think I'm going to
share that with him cool okay sowe should wrap it up we had one
more thing that we were going todo in this episode So I have...
Hold on,

SPEAKER_01 (54:52):
one second, one second.
Once this gets published intosome format, the hashtag vanlife
story, we will let you guys knowso that you can read it.
Because it really is a fun,twisty, turny, thriller, short
story.
Like, it doesn't take you morethan 15 minutes, and

SPEAKER_02 (55:07):
it's, like, legit fun.
Okay, it slaps.
I mean, it really does.
Okay, so...
Speaking of Sean, my wonderfulhusband, who hopefully doesn't
feel too beat up by thisepisode.
Do you think?
No, Sean, you're great.
We love you.
We love you.
Yeah.

(55:28):
He bought...
How supportive is this?
He bought me this box.
It's called the Writer'sToolbox, and it basically has
prompts.
And the other day, I used it forthe first time, and that's what
inspired my short story vanlife.
So I'm going to continue to useit when...
Because short stories, yeah, area little bit tough for me.
I'm

SPEAKER_01 (55:48):
going to take a picture of it.
Okay.
And we have our prompt set upalso so that we can post it on
our Instagram.
Let me do it with that.
Can you hold it up this way so Ican block out the stuff in the
background?

(56:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (56:11):
Okay.
Sorry.
So, oh.
So the writer's toolbox by JamieCat Callan.
Jamie Cat Callan.
Yeah.
So she has a spinny wheel.
Oh, she has many spinny wheels.
Ooh, obstacles.
Obstacles, protagonist goals.
These are all spinnys.
An action.

(56:32):
And then she has these...
Popsicle sticks?
LS.
What does that mean?
Let me see.
FS...
L-S-F-S.
And N-S.
Okay.
I'm sure.
And then we have cards.
And one card says a child withwings.

(56:55):
Ooh.
Interesting.
So.
Wait.
Oh, L-S is the last straw.
Okay.
N-S is...
Oh, FS is the first sentence.
So that's what I use with this.

(57:16):
But then I ended up not using,like I, it got me started.
Sure.
Which is the point.
Yeah.
So we could, and then there'ssixth sense.
cards yeah which was what youjust read which was which one it
was oh uh something with wings achild with wings a child with
wings there's a protagonist gameso there's a lot of different
ways to use this but do we wantto just do a first sentence or

(57:40):
do we want to just

SPEAKER_01 (57:41):
let's just wing it let's do a

SPEAKER_02 (57:42):
first what did you do you did a first sentence and
a all i did was first sentencethat's all i've ever done okay
so let's but maybe we should dotwo things let's do two things
for fun maybe a first sentencein the last straw or should we
spin something i I want to havea sixth sense card.
So that's going to be somethingI have to incorporate.

SPEAKER_01 (57:59):
Let's spin something in a first sentence.

SPEAKER_02 (58:02):
Okay.
Okay.
Oh shit.
And then we'll put it down andwe'll take a picture of it so we
can share.
Okay.
I'm going to spin for obstacles.
Okay.
Well,

SPEAKER_01 (58:12):
we're going to do the same thing.
So we're going to choose thesame prompts, but not talk to
each other about our stories sothat we can come back and read
our stories, the whole things,or maybe just synopsis plus a
piece of it.
We'll see how long they are andstuff.
Okay.
And then see how different theroads were that we went on with

(58:35):
the same prompt.

SPEAKER_02 (58:36):
Yeah.
Which I think is super fun.
Oh, my God.
This is the nerdiest thing we'veever done.
So what do you think?
I'm going to grab these popsiclesticks.

SPEAKER_01 (58:43):
So I'm

SPEAKER_02 (58:43):
grabbing right now

SPEAKER_01 (58:43):
the first sentence popsicle sticks.
And you've got in your hand,which spinny thing is it that
you have in your hand?

SPEAKER_02 (58:52):
Well, this one's obstacles.
We could do action, protagonist,or goals.
Let's go protagonist, don't youthink?
Yeah.
Okay,

SPEAKER_01 (59:01):
first sentence protagonist, because that's kind
of going to be like, how did wego with this protagonist?
Maybe they'll have the same nameor

SPEAKER_02 (59:06):
something.
Oh my God.
And

SPEAKER_01 (59:08):
then you want to use a six cents

SPEAKER_02 (59:09):
card.
Yeah.
Do you want to spin it?
No, you spin it.
I'll choose this.
You choose that.
Okay.
Spinning, spinning, spinning,spinning, spinning, spinning,
spinning.
Okay.
The...
leora who loves to visit israeloh wow okay this is wow that's
great so she's jewish maybemaybe or

SPEAKER_01 (59:31):
she'd be like my grandma she's just she's a solid
christian woman and she visitedisrael because it's holy land
whether you're new

SPEAKER_02 (59:38):
jewish or not oh okay leora all right now what's
our first sentence

SPEAKER_01 (59:45):
um I just cheated.
I looked at it and then decidedI didn't like it.
So I'm going to shoot anotherone.
Okay.
Oh, wow.
This is going

SPEAKER_02 (59:55):
to be an interesting story.
There were 17 cats living inLarry's basement.
Gross.
Dislike button.
That's not okay.
Focus on that.
There are 17 cats living inLarry's basement.
Wow.
This is, that's a first.
Okay.
So do you think it's going toget too much with this?

(01:00:16):
I think that's the point.
Okay.
And do we have to leaveeverything in?
Cause I didn't leave my firstsentence.
No,

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:21):
I think

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:21):
that, well, no, I think we should for the sake of
the product.
Yeah.
Cause otherwise you could justnot do anything.
Right.
I mean, I could just

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:29):
send you, I could just bring in a story I wrote.
Okay.
Just to be me.
And just like pretend.
Just to pretend.
Just to win.
To tie it in somehow.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:38):
Okay.
So the six cents card is rippedupholstery.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:43):
Okay.
Well, that's easy with the cats.
Oh, my God.
Oh, yeah.
That

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:46):
works really well.
Okay.
So I wonder how Leora and Larryare going to be connected.
I mean, they could have beenlovers at one point.
Leora could be his mom.
Or Larry could be the dad.
Or Leora could be...
Well, I'm not going to give youany of my cool ideas.
Okay, yeah.
Because whoever wins...

(01:01:07):
Very exciting.
Okay, so...
Are there any steaks?
No.
What would the stakes be?
The loser has to read theirstory at your class.
Holy

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:24):
fuck.
No.
Okay.
How about the stakes are stakes?
Whoever has...
Well, what's the, like, who'sgoing to judge, right?
Like, but whatever it is,however, whoever wins somehow.
We're going to have steaks.
Steaks.
We'll just

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:42):
have steaks.
We'll eat steak while we do thepodcast so you guys can listen
to every smack.
I'll gnaw on the bone and you'lllove it.
All right.
Well, okay.
There may not be steaks, but.
We have homework for ourselvesbecause we're adorable.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:59):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:59):
Thanks for listening.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:01):
thanks.
See you soon.
Bye.