Did we just get rejected?

Rejection Letters, Contest Drama, and the Return of the Muse

In this episode of Write Your Heart Out, Kayla Ogden and Rachel Cyr unpack their experiences with the Reedsy Prompts Competition. Spoiler alert: neither of them submitted their stories to it! Why? Word count woes, shady contest terms, and a deeper conversation about protecting your creative work.

They also talk through their first rejection letters—Rachel gets ghosted and rejected (double sting), while Kayla shares some querying wins and woes, including a personalized pass and a surprise full manuscript request from a Canadian agent (aka her “shooting star”).

Other highlights:

• A spicy new short story idea from Rachel that’s turning up the heat (and maybe leading to her “sex muse” moment)
• Kayla’s late-night muse visits and her next novel idea
• The ethics of contests like Reedsy and why writers should read the terms of service before submitting (lesson learned!)
• How Elizabeth Gilbert, Ruth Stone, and Alan Watts factor into Kayla’s creative process
• Sharks, weddings, and the unexpected writing lessons of Shark Heart

It's a chaotic, heartfelt, and hilariously honest conversation about rejection, inspiration, and what it means to take your writing seriously—even when nobody else has yet.

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New episodes every Wednesday.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Write your heart out.
Hi, I'm Kayla Ogden.
And I'm Rachel Sear.
And this is Write Your HeartOut, our podcast about...
where we chat about writing foryou.

(00:20):
All right.
Well, we have some fun stuff totalk about today.
We did a few cool things.
Yes, we've been working ourlittle tails off.
Submitting, submitting,submitting.
Yes.
We saw this thing on thiswebsite called ReadZ, which
ReadZ has a lot of greatresources for writers.

(00:44):
I would recommend checking itout.
And they have a really goodYouTube channel with um this
chick shailene woodsy or woodleyyou can lean the actress oh is
that is that the actress fromlike insurgent alien like woodsy
isn't it oh man we gotta look itup okay so the razy chick oh

(01:07):
here she is okay try doing adaily writing prompt or free
write if you just So her name'sShailene something.
Okay, well, not the actress, aslong as we're clear on that.
She seems...
Cool.
It's funny because when I go totheir page, they're not having
that much of her, but she's beendoing it forever.

(01:28):
Okay.
Anyway, so they have a reallygreat YouTube channel where they
talk a lot about the craft ofwriting, which I would
recommend.
And then because Rachel and Ihave been working on writing
short stories and thinking a lotabout getting published, one of
the ways to do that is to winthese contests.
I don't think I had ever entereda contest before but you had

(01:50):
sort of won that contest at CSM.
Yeah.
Yes.
Sure.
Yes.
You were one of the people whowere chosen to perform your
short story.
So anyways, Readsie had this oneand we were like, oh, cool.
It's called Prompted.
And if you win, you win$250 andyou get your short story sort of
publicized.

(02:11):
You get to say that you won.
And basically you look at theseprompts.
There's new prompts every week.
You choose one.
You write a short story aboutit.
and then you submit it.
And they're sponsored bydifferent authors.
That's the part we didn't know.
We did not know that.
And so the author for the weekthat we submitted, or almost
submitted, in my case, thisauthor specifically, she loves

(02:36):
to write about characters thatare barely redeemable.
That's part of her thing.
She has a YouTube channel.
She has her own littlepublishing thing, too.
Maybe we should look up what hername was.
But she...
One of her big things was thatshe likes characters who are
right on the edge, protagoniststhat are right on the edge of

(02:56):
being bad.
The prompts all kind of alignedwith that in some sort of way.
However, I didn't read thatahead of time.
Yes, so her name was MelTorfranca and she's a full-time
author.
Her latest book was UndergroundRoyalty and I think you were
saying she might have a smallpress or something like that.

(03:18):
I think that's what it said.
When I was reading about her I'mpretty sure that she had like a
pretty thorough background inall of this yeah she has some
she's like how far can acharacter go before losing the
reader's hope for redemption andher the contest was number 303
called Beyond Redemption itended up getting 328 entries

(03:42):
with 156 stories the winnerstill has not been announced and
the winner will not be Rachelnor will it be I because
although we both wrote shortstories based on these prompts
we both decided not to submitthem for different reasons so
what was was your reason thatyou were like oh actually my
character isn't beyondredemption or so I was gonna

(04:05):
still submit with that in mind Iwas like I really do stand
behind my story I like it myprompt was a situation where you
could your protagonist couldhave chosen forgiveness but
instead they chose revenge Ifeel like my story did that
beautifully.
I liked it a

SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
lot.

SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
The problem was I read about the author and this
character is very likable.
She's like a sweet teenager andlike she's had a hard life and
there's no reason to hate herthroughout the story until the
end when she chooses revenge andthe biggest problem was that my
story was like 3,500 words andwhen I went to submit it was a

(04:47):
3,000 word max.
I just like went through mystory two three times and I was
like you know yes I learned howto kill some darlings with the
compliment but I'm not willingto do it for this contest I just
wasn't willing to do it Icouldn't I didn't have it in my
brain space to edit it down youvery kindly offered to help me

(05:07):
uh cut it down but I said noyeah I didn't want it I was like
I'll kill that shit for you Iread it once.
Yeah.
I'm like, there, there wasn't alot of like fat to cut off.
Like it, it felt short.
I remember being like, Oh, mineis long.
And then mine was 2000 words.

(05:28):
And I'm like, yours was reallyshort and yours was 3,500 words.
And I think that it's a goodsign if it feels like it flows,
like it just, there's nothing tolike get caught up on or there
was no part where you put itdown or you get stuck or you
don't understand.
Yeah.
So I, I agree.
I mean, I'm sure if you had aneditor go through it with a, a
fine pick comb they could cutthings there's probably things

(05:50):
that would make the story betternot to have but I didn't see
anything like that glaringly umand so yeah I feel like that's a
really good choice yeah I knewthat it wasn't going to get
picked because of what theauthor's style was and then I
didn't want to cut it down ontop of it for this specific
contest so that was that butyours I didn't think it felt

(06:13):
long I mean no I thought it wasfun it was like a fun little
roller coaster where thesecharacters were like, do I
really love them?
I don't know.
I feel like she could have, Ifeel like the author could have
picked that one up and beenlike, huh, this woman's, she's
got a little bit of a, the maincharacter.
Yeah, the main character's got alittle bit of an edge to her

(06:34):
that maybe she could go anotherway.
So there's two characters in myshort story and neither of them
are that likable.
I don't think, but I thinkthey're interesting to read
about.
They are.
And what they're doing isinteresting, so...

(06:54):
I think she, it could have beenpicked.
I don't know.
There was like 328 entriesthough.
So it's like, what are thefucking chances?
And all you win is 200.
So here's the thing.
I wouldn't have mindedsubmitting this story on the
down low.
I spent two days writing it,like not 24 hours, but you know,

(07:14):
like my writing time in thosedays, I spent writing this story
because I thought, you know, ifI won, that would be like kind
of cool.
It's like, look, out of allthese entries and it's really
easy and look at me nice littleego boost on top of it yeah put
a little feather in my cap butso I did it and I go and I press

(07:36):
publish and then my story popsup in its own like user
generated content page that Ididn't know that was gonna
happen right I press submit Ithink that it's going to
somebody's email somewhere whichmaybe it did but all of a sudden
it was publicly on the internetoh yeah I didn't I didn't like

(08:02):
an account was kind of createdfor me where it's like this is
your readsy page and this isyour first short story that
you've published here and peoplecan comment on it and you know
now it's on I guess maybe it'son like a list somewhere of ones
that were submitted to thiscontest and here if next time
you want to like publish a storyon readsy you publish it here

(08:23):
and it's like this kind of likecommunity writer vibe and I
noticed that if I looked at thewinner for say last week's
prompts We...
contest I could go to their pageand see that they've submitted
you know stories to the last 40weeks of this or 30 you know
what I mean like yeah you canread all their stories and shit

SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
which is

SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
a cool concept it is however if you're not prepared
for it it depends on your goalstotally and so a lot of other
publications like say I were tosubmit this to like a literary
magazine or something like thata lot of them say we only
publish new material even ifyour story has Right.

(09:04):
Right.
fucking published right and if Idon't win which I probably won't
because there's 328 peopletrying to win this then now like

(09:28):
this is all this was for rightwas to just throw it up on this
website along with everybodyelse I just felt like that
cheapens my work a lot if yousubmit to a contest and you
don't win you don't have to goaround telling everybody hey
totally like but this just showsthat your thing lost right and
good old google if if Ifsomebody was to Google your

(09:50):
name, there it is.
That could come up.
And then so it comes up andsomebody clicks on it and they
see that, oh, Kayla's story haszero comments.
Right.
And she put it on this thing andnobody gives a shit.
Or...
You were writing something forthis specific prompt.
Yeah.
That's not normally your style.
Yeah.
And someone now thinks that'syour style.

(10:11):
I mean, you do have to keep inmind what you're submitting and
who's going to see it.
It's fun writing these prompts.
However, if it's not in yourstyle of what you want to
present yourself as an author ifyou are to become successful at
this, which, you know, I assume,I can only assume we are and
that you will be.

(10:31):
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (10:33):
Um...

SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
There's some things that you won't want out there.
Yeah, it's like part of yourportfolio, right?
Right.
And I think I just want to treatmy work as though it's valuable
because if I don't place valueon it, then nobody else will.
Absolutely.
Good.
I like that.
And just fuck that.
Fuck that, honestly.
And okay, so...

(10:53):
I guess I'm getting all mad atReadsie.
After that, after I see it comeup, I'm like, what the hell?
And I look at their, so I'mlike, let me read your terms of
use.
And I, like everyone else on theplanet, get these like terms of
use that are super long.
Anytime I download an app oranything and you just click
accept, right?
Of course.
And that's what I did on thiscontest.

(11:15):
But I realize now that as awriter, if you're submitting to
contests and publications andstuff like that, you should at
least know a few things aboutthe terms of use and if you're
comfortable with that and withreadsy they're not that long
there's like seven differentcategories and you can kind of
just skim through it butbasically what i was looking at

(11:37):
was the use of submissions whatare they going to do with this
writing and who owns thecopyright and that kind of stuff
yeah so each entrant of thiscontest retains the copyright to
their entry but they grantreadsy a non-exclusive So
basically, like, you own thecopyright, so you can go publish

(12:07):
it wherever else you want, butthey can also do whatever they
want with it.

SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Which is fine.
Like, for me, I don't...
Including edit it.

SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
That's

SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
interesting.
That's annoying.
Yeah.
What if they just totally...
What if they edit it and thensell it as a movie and then
you're just like, oh, look.
Yeah, they say you can edit it,publish it.
including within a compilationtogether with others into a book
format or any format, which maybe published or sold or provided

(12:40):
free of charge at Reezy'sdiscretion.
Okay, so if your story isselected as the winner, but even
if it's not selected as thewinner, you can still publish a
story elsewhere, but thepublication must include the
relevant prompt, so you can'ttake the prompt out, and
acknowledgement to Reezy.com forproviding the prompt that

(13:01):
inspired the the story.
This acknowledgement should bein the form of a mention or in
the case of a digitalpublication, a do follow link
back to blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, the website.
Okay.
So it's like, say I get itpublished somewhere else.
Then at the bottom it saysoriginally published as part of
the promptly blah, blah, blah.
This was the prompt.
Here's the link.

(13:22):
Right.
And I don't know.
I was just like, this is toomuch, bro.
Like I, yeah.
Just for something that I hitsubmit on and that never got...
Wasn't a winner and nobody everlooked at.
It's like now every time I haveto say that I did it through
here.
Right.
It was just bullshit.
So I talked to my husband aboutit who...
He's like...

(13:43):
He's a manager at his tech joband sometimes I use him to like
manage me.
Of course.
If I'm confused about what I'mdoing and he's like well what if
you just leave it up on thewebsite for a week and then if
it wins then you leave it and ifit loses then you can just take
it down and pretend it neverhappened.
But I'm not organized enough tolike be checking back and

(14:05):
waiting and do all this stuff soI just deleted it.
Fair.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I like my story.
I think it's kind of cool and Ilike that uh Rachel workshopped
the ending with me the ending Ihad it end almost the exact same
as the last so these are myfirst short stories like I've
this is I wrote the last one andthen I wrote this one so I've

(14:28):
only written two I've written awhole novel call back to the
last one it was the one with thecats the 17 cats oh wait so I've
written three Well, that's theone that has a similar ending,
right?
Do three of them have...
Okay, I think I maybe havewritten three short stories now,
so I have...
There was the prompted one aboutwith the cats, which I didn't
really like that

SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
one that I wrote.
Oh, I love that one.
Okay, keep going.
Really?

SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
Yeah.
What happens at the end of it?
The cats...
She's on the...
Oh, she's having an asthmaattack.
Oh, shit.
Okay, yeah.
So she...
Yeah, so she's like dying at theend of it from an asthma attack.
Then my first short story that Iwrote, which I really like,
called Hashtag Van Life.
Oh, yes, right.
See, this is the one that is thesame.
Because at the end of thisstory, or...

(15:13):
I'm totally spoiling it.
But at the end of these stories,the protagonist cracks their
head on the cement.
Yeah, you've got a lot of headcracking.
The heads crack.
I'd be writing about...
These women are in danger.
Cracking heads.
I know.
So when my story ended with hercracking her head on the cement,
I was like, okay, girl, like...

(15:34):
We've explored this.
Yeah.
Maybe we can do something else.
And so I workshopped that withRachel and I came up with a
different idea and it was stillsort of like a cliffhanger.
Like, Oh my God, what's shegoing to do now?
It was a good

SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
cliffhanger.

SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
I liked it.
It's so crazy, though, like howmany of the same themes are in
this short story as the firstone that I wrote.
Like there's like sort of anabduction vibe.
There's like a mother daughterthing.
There's like this person thatthis sort of sexy person that's
kind of dangerous in it.
Yeah.
But everything else like that'sthe scaffolding.

(16:12):
But like everything else is likesort of different.
If I'm going to write shortstories, I need to.
different kinds of shortstories.
I can't just keep on writing thesame thing where the lady gets
lured into some situation andthen unalived.
Oofed.
Okay, but hold on.
Is that just where your muse istelling you to go?
At some point.
You kind of just have to followwhere it's taking you.

(16:33):
Right?
Maybe.
But it almost feels like I'mforcing things with these
prompts and

SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
stuff.
Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (16:40):
Especially the cat one.
I was like, my muse had nothingto do with that.
She was like covering her earswith her hand as being like, la
la la la la.
This is not my shit, guys.
This is not my shit.
If we read our stories on ourpodcast, is that going to fuck
us?
I don't think so.
With publishing?
I mean, I think that if it's astory that we think could be

(17:04):
turned into a novel, which iswhat we both want to be as
novelists, then we should not bereading it.
You know?
Yes.
I think that that would fuck us.
The one I'm currently workingon, I'm not sharing it.
I feel like it's going to gosomewhere.
Short story?
No, it's turning into a longstory.
I'm on...
My heart.

(17:24):
It's getting long.
When did you start it?
They haven't even had dinneryet.
It's a story about dinner.
It started as a story.
Okay, well, wait.
Should I save this?
I know what you're saying now.
Yeah, should I save thisuntil...
Are we ready to talk about itnow?
Or should we wait?
Sure, because we talked aboutthe Readsie thing and how fucked

(17:46):
up the terms of service atReadsie are.
Well, no offense, Readsie, but,like, yes, lesson has been
learned.
Read the terms of service beforewe jump into anything.
Yeah.
I think that Readsie, what Iwould recommend that you guys do
is for the winner or one of thewinners sure they have to use

(18:08):
this you know they have allthese terms of service but for
the person who loses isn't thatenough of a kick in the teeth
now you have to take their workaway from them I think that for
the loser they shouldn't have toanytime they publish it
somewhere else like Stick athing under it.
And I think that when theysubmit their story, you should

(18:29):
ask them if they want to publishit on your website before you
just go, bing, bang, boom, hereit is for the world to see.
Right.
That's what I would recommend.
Okay, well, talking about losingfor a second here, because...
Loser.
Loser, I am.
I got two rejection letters thispast weekend.
One from Wild Landscape, whichwas a cool little...

(18:52):
publication that I submitted thecompliment to, my short story
that had won at the school.
And again, because all of theseplaces allowed simultaneous
submissions, so I sent the storyto a few different places.
So that one rejected, and thenLit Nerds rejected it, which was
fine.
I'm fine.
I'm not upset about it.
However, my first rejectionletters, I mean, it's a little

(19:16):
stingy.
I mean, I'm okay with it.
I feel like I got what I wantedout of the compliment with my
winning...
the place at the writer'sruckus.
However, woof, that's rough.
Yeah, it felt, you felt it.
Well, yeah.
So were the rejection letterspersonal?
Do you want me to read one toyou?
Sure.
You can hear what it soundslike.
Yeah.

(19:36):
I'm pretty sure they wereautomated.
They were pretty much just like,okay, here we go.
Hello, Rachel.
Thank you so much for yoursubmission to Wild Landscape
Literary Journal.
We know how much time it takesto prep and submit work, and we
appreciate that you chose to dothis.
I'm bummed to say that we allhave to pass on this piece this
time around.
Unfortunately, it just is notwhat we're looking for at this

(19:58):
time.
We wish you the very bestplacing your work elsewhere, and
I welcome you to submit work tous again in the future.
Rachel.
Warmly, Ophelia.
Ophelia, what a beautiful name.
It is a beautiful name.
So I'm pretty sure that's a cutand paste type of rejection
letter.
However, it does feel, I mean,it wasn't just like denied, you
know.

(20:18):
Yeah, I wonder if they have tworejection letters, like one that
says we welcome you to submitagain in the future and one that
just doesn't.
One that's like, you're a creep,never come back here.
Yes, yes.
Probably.
Or like you just are very faraway.
from being ready to publish.
You know, some people probablycan't.

(20:41):
Well, maybe.
They might just say that's noteven worth their time.
Get the nice rejection letterand out you go.
The Littners one was muchshorter.
It was, Dear Rachel, thank youfor submitting the compliment to
us.
While we don't feel that thisparticular piece is the right
fit for us right now, we wishyou the best of luck in finding
another home for your work.

(21:04):
So, I mean, that one was alittle bit more...
I don't know.
Uh, yeah.
Okay.
So I have tales of rejection.
Um, yeah.
So I have my novel that I wrote.
And so when you're looking toget your novel published, um,
traditionally, which is to saylike probably by one of the big

(21:27):
four publishing houses, youcan't just submit your work
directly to the publisher.
They won't accept it anymore.
So you have to have an agent.
Um, so there's like this sort oflike weaning process before it
even gets to the publisher.
Right.
So the agents are sort of like afirst layer of gatekeepers.

(21:51):
Right.
So what I've heard is that manyagents will get 100 emails like
a week who are people queryingthem for representation.
So there's a lot of people whohave written books and they're
trying to get an agent.
There's just like a word forthis stage of your career called

(22:12):
querying.
It's like hashtag am querying.
Right now I'm querying agents.
So I'm in that stage but I'mreally bad at it.
I have a spreadsheet.
People will say I queried 100agents before I got an agent.
Wow.
Only three of them sent me apersonalized email about my
thing.
There's not a lot of feedbackthat happens and there's a ton

(22:34):
of rejection that happens.
Even if you have good work.
How does one become an agent?
I know.
Maybe I should just become anagent.
Then I'll just meet somepublishers and just work for
myself.
Yeah.
You should be each other'sagents.
Hey! All right, well, we'll comeback to that.
We know how to make aSquarespace.

(22:54):
We can make our own littleSquarespace agency.
We just have to figure out how.
Actually, with that being said,there was this comedian.
I'm trying to remember.
I want to say like MollyShannon.
Maybe it was Molly Shannon.
Anyways, on a talk show, she waslike...
She said that she just wouldpretend to be an agent for her
friends and her friends wouldpretend to be an agent for her

(23:14):
like as an actor and a comedianand just call things and submit
her for auditions and then shewould just go.
It works.
I used to do that in Vegas withmy friends when I was like 21,
you know, like on the town.
I would call ahead to differentclubs and say...
rachel she's coming tonight ineed to make sure that you have

(23:37):
the reservation ready for hershe will be arriving at eight
with a group of uh you knoweight eight people and um and
they'll be like oh no we don'thave her on the list i'm like
you don't have her on the listand like make a whole thing
about how like she should havebeen on the list and you better
get it together and usually theperson answering the phone is
like oh yeah okay okay i'll makesure it's together and then we

(23:59):
had a table at every club With,like, bottle service.
Like, the whole works.
It worked every time.
Oh, my God.
So, Vegas hack.
Just be your own assistant.
And they don't know.
And they get scared.
I love the part where you saidthey get scared.
Oh, my God.
It's so funny.

(24:20):
Okay, so what we've learned istake a note from 21-year-old
Rachel's book and just callaround.
Yeah.
Hey, if you don't call around,no one else will because it's
really fucking hard to get anagent.
I mean, there's not a agentdegree, is there?
Like, you don't, like, have a...
It's not like MD.
No one's checking agent credit.

(24:40):
I feel like there's, yeah.
I mean, people have different,like they'll say things about
themselves too.
But basically like they'll say,oh, I worked for...
Penguin Random House as aneditor and I went to school and
I went to school for likepublishing or literature or like
whatever it is, like somethingin there, but we could just make

(25:00):
that shit up too.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, let's circle back to this.
Okay.
We won't be liars.
We're going to try to keep it.
We will never do that.
Yeah.
We're going to try to keep it asreal as possible until we are on
our last legs.
Yes, exactly.
Oh my God.
So anyway, so my rejection was Ihave quite a few query 10 agents

(25:23):
over the last like i'm supposedto be doing this every day and
it's been months and i've onlydone 10 because it sucks it's
worse like you have to researchevery agent and figure out what
they're looking for and what'stheir hashtag manuscript wish
list oh right well this is howwe start talking about romantic
ladder Is it?

(25:44):
Yeah, because when we startedtalking about Thorns and Roses,
Court of Thrones, you weretalking about how you're
submitting, and they all wantRomantasy.
Yes.
Anyway, whatever.
So this is my rejection, is thatI got rejected by some of the
agents.
Like, there was this one guythat I met at the San Francisco
Writers Conference, like, fouryears ago, because I've gone

(26:07):
twice.
And basically, they used to havethis thing that was, like, speed
dating with agents So they wouldhave 20 different agents there
at different tables.
And you would research theagents a little bit first to
figure out which ones you wantedto talk to.
And then you would just like goand do that.
And you have like five pageswith you and you pitch your

(26:29):
book.
At the time, I thought I had abook, but I didn't.
It was only$30,000.
words, which is in a book.
And it was basically like aconcept.
It didn't have much of a plot.
I was the, literally the lastperson to do it because I was
lost and ADHD and I didn't knowwhat was going on.
So basically probably like ahundred people or 200 people had

(26:52):
come through this room andpitched their books to these
agents in five minute incrementsall day long.
Yeah.
So the agents were like, get methe fuck out of here.
And I was like, Oh, knock knockknock my turn and I like went in
and like I it was I I would beastounded if I got an agent from
that and I was not ready but Idid talk to this one dude he

(27:16):
didn't seem that excited aboutit oh okay wait I have to tell
this one part okay so there'sthis guy Andy and he's part of a
literary agency in San Franciscoand he's sitting there and And I
go up and I'm like, this is whatmy book is about, la la la, will
you be my agent?
And he was like, no.

(27:36):
He was like, I don't thinkthat's for me.
And he sort of had this cutelittle attitude, kind of looking
at me like, are you for real?
And he's like, you know, youreally need to have something
magical.
Like, you know, just somethingthat just grips you and it just
is like it has that specialsomething.
Something like this.
And I can't believe I did this.
I put my five pages on the tableand I slid them over to me and I

(27:59):
was like, does this have thatsomething?
And he put on his glasses and helooked down and he read for like
10 seconds and he pushed it backand he said, no.
I love that.
I'm sorry.
That's...
He was just over it.
He was like, this bitch.

(28:19):
This privileged little bitch.

UNKNOWN (28:21):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
And it's so crazy because it's like, when do you
get rejected by a man in thislife?
Like, it's just, it feels weird.
Yeah.
So then I went to like thisother guy, Michael Levine,
L-E-V-I-N-E, who I think he'sout of LA.
He has sold thousands ofprojects to like television and
stuff.

(28:42):
He's like a lawyer.
So he's really good at thatpart, like working out your
contracts and stuff.
But he also does books, but Ithink he really likes doing like
screenplays and stuff.
I have his card maybe in thefuture cool so I emailed him so
finally years later I actuallyhave a real book and I emailed
him and I had had his card on acork board above my desk forever

(29:07):
because when I pitched it to himI think he just felt sorry for
me and he gave me his card andthen I went back to my little
group of writers like that I hadmet at the conference and I was
like well I did get like thisguy's card but I think he gives
it to everyone and all my littlenew friends were like no He
doesn't give that to people.
Like, this is great.
He's the best one.
And I was like, oh my God.

(29:29):
So I put it on my cork board andI'm like, one day I'll send it
to Michael Levine and then he'llbe my guy.
And then, you know, who knowswhat will happen.
And he just emailed me back afew days later and just said,
that's not for me.
And it wasn't even...
There was no even punctuation.
That's not for me.

(29:51):
No capital on the T.
I was like, damn.
Sheesh.
But I did not let that get tome.
That didn't hurt.
That one didn't hurt.
I was like, I don't expect thisguy to understand the nuances of
my book.
He wants to publish shittystuff, and that's not what this
is.

(30:12):
No offense, Michael.
I just have to tell myselfsomething.
So then I have to go to myspreadsheet and write no.
And then I got two morerejections.
One of them was from a ladynamed Lily Dolan.
And I read her manuscript wishlist.
I was like, this is exactly mybook.
I was excited.

(30:32):
I'm like, she's open forsubmissions.
She's kind of like my age.
She's like my vibe.
I have exactly what she wants.
And I was really, really hopefuland I sent it to her.
And when I first read myrejection, I was just hurt and I
thought it was just like acanned response.
Sure.
But then I went back and I readit again and she did say, you
know, I didn't love these pagesas much as I wanted to.

(30:55):
And as much as I would need toin order to champion this work,
but I have no doubt that youwill find an agent that's a good
fit for you.
Oh, that's a great letteractually.
Yeah.
I was like, you know, she didn'thave to say that.
And it means that she, it meansthat she read the pages because
you have a letter, a synopsis,and then you attach however many

(31:18):
pages.
So I'm like, she was hooked bythe letter.
So that's a good sign.
She wanted to keep reading.
She read them.
It, Didn't really like grab herfor whatever reason.
That's fine.
But she thinks that I shouldkeep trying.
Yeah.
So I thought that was like kindof positive.
Definitely.
And then guys, I got sort of awin.
I got an email back from anagent who he's in Canada, which

(31:40):
I want a Canadian agent.
He's in Toronto.
He's the president of Canada.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(32:04):
Two of my favorite authors aretwo of his favorite authors.
Okay.
I wrote the corniest thing inthe letter.
I said, I'm writing for you torepresent me because you are a
star and that's what I'mshooting for.
Oh, that's adorable.
I was like, I know it's corny,but it's true.
And then I sent it to him and Igot an email back and he's like,

(32:25):
he had said to wait for like sixmonths.
Like if I don't get back to youin six months, it's a no.
Okay.
And it was like a week later andhe was like, Hey, thank you so
much for sending this to me.
If you don't have an agent yet,can you please send me the full
manuscript?
Dang.
And I'm like, if I don't have anagent yet, baby.
Yeah.
That's exciting.

UNKNOWN (32:45):
Okay, honey.

SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
Yeah.
So I sent it to him.
This was last week.
Yeah, this was, yeah.
Kayla, you've been sitting on anegg.
Sitting on an egg.
A golden egg.
Okay, Rachel has chickens in heryard.
Literally, when I came overhere, she was with the chickens,
so.
I know a lot about eggs, and youwere sitting on one, okay?
I know, I didn't tell you onpurpose.

(33:07):
Oh, that's so exciting.
Here, what was this guy's nameagain?
Oh, I didn't say his name.
Should I?
Oh, I don't know.
Is it a secret?
I don't know how this works.
I don't remember his name.
Oh, okay.
He's just your star.
One day I'll remember myshooting star's name when he
accepts me into his.
Okay.
Let's.
But okay.
So that's my rejection and yourrejection.
So I, I'm okay with mine.

(33:29):
How are you?
Like, how are you feeling aboutyour, do you feel like your work
is bad or?
No, I don't feel like it's bad.
I feel really confident in mywork actually.
Yeah.
It's good.
Thank you.
I, I haven't.
faced a lot of rejection in mylife.
No.
I realize.
Yeah.
I can see why.

(33:51):
So, I mean, I think that there'stwo ways that can go, right?
It's either it can tear you downand you're like, oh my god, this
is the first time I've everreally been rejected.
Or it's like, I know my shit isgood.
You know?
And I feel like that's kind ofwhere I'm at.
One thing that I've reallylearned from our book club is
that Sometimes I'm, like, on theouts in terms of, like, I like

(34:14):
things the rest of the book clubdoesn't like.
It's true.
Have you noticed that?
Of course I have.
The two books you'verecommended, all of us were
like, meh.
Yeah, so I recommended AllForest by Miranda July, and
Miranda July is one of myfavorite artists and writers.
Well, and it's an extremelypopular book right now.
Yes.
I mean, I have heard peopletalking about it and been like,

(34:38):
should I go back?
I just couldn't get out of thefucking motel.
I just couldn't get out of themotel.
Like, you're spending$10,000fucking dollars.
Okay, keep going.
To renovate a motel.
Yeah, I just can't.
I couldn't.
I just want to slap her.
Okay, so Rachel had a differentopinion.
And I was like, I thought it wasgreat.

(34:59):
And then when everybody elselikes things, for example, we
read Shark Heart, a love story.
Yes.
Which is usually totally my typeof story.
of thing like this weird quirkylike something I've never heard
before but I couldn't get intoit and it's not to say that it
wasn't a good story I thoughtthe writing was beautiful it

(35:19):
just wasn't the type of thing Iusually like to read.
I like to read things that are alittle bit more, have more
things happening in the scene.
Whereas I felt like the way thenarrator was in that book, it's
just a lot of like narration.
It was a lot of narration.
It's just sort of like, I justsort of like outlining or

(35:39):
outlining a character,explaining how they feel,
explaining this, explainingthat, but not really like
showing it as much.
And I don't think you have to doonly show, no tell.
I think there should be a mix.
But for me, the mix was not theway I like to read a story.
Anyway, so...
I forget what I was...
Well, in our book group, you areoften on the...

(36:00):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So what I've learned from thatis that just my shit is not
going to be for everybody, andthat's actually a good thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, I'm not writing YoungSheldon or something that can
be, like, consumed by everybodyin the nation, and it's just
meant for the widest generalaudience ever.
And not every publication shouldpublish it.

(36:24):
And I don't, you know, so...
And there's a lot of amazingauthors who aren't Colleen
Hoover.
You know, like, she's pumpingout stuff.
And it's not bad stuff.
Like, it's very entertaining.
You know, like, her books arevery entertaining.
Yeah.
And they're fun beach reads and,like, or not necessarily a beach
read for some of them.

(36:45):
But, like, you know, that's notyour goal.
That's not, yeah.
I don't know if that would bethe right goal unless you...
really have that in your heartto be you know yeah exactly and
I don't um so that's just likepart of the process too of
figuring out like who you are asa as a writer and an author and
how you want to show up in lifeand I think that's not going to

(37:11):
be a Colleen Hoover probably umbut yeah and and that's like
with like doing contests andlike letting your work just be
like splat out on some platformlike don't do that to yourself
like have have more just putplace more value on your work
totally I think that that waslike the key is if you don't

(37:32):
value it no one else does and Ilike that you value your work a
lot and that's I think that'sreally important I mean truly
any art if you don't value itnobody will yeah Yeah.
I mean, art is arbitrary.
All art is completely arbitrary.
It's like, who puts a number onit?

(37:53):
You.
Yes.
Or some art collector, and what,that's arbitrary to them too.
Yeah, so often even like agentsor publishers or editors, they
don't know what's going to popoff, right?

UNKNOWN (38:04):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
Um, so I was, I don't know how long we've been
going, but I have a lot ofthoughts on inspiration and like
the muse.
Do you think that I should talkabout that?
Talk about your muse.
I definitely want to hear aboutyour muse.
Okay.
So we talked about the muse onmaybe the first episode or
something like that.

(38:24):
And basically we both listenedto this Ted talk by Elizabeth
Gilbert, who is the author ofEat, Pray, Love.
And she did this Ted's talk backin 2000.
2009 when I first listened to itit just it didn't do anything
for me but when I re-listened toit lately it really really got
under my skin and basically shetalks about how in ancient

(38:46):
Greece and Rome people didn'tthink that creativity came from
the individual human being theythought it came from somewhere
else the Greeks thought it camefrom daemons like Socrates
famously thought that he hadlike a daemon on his shoulder
that would like inspire him theRomans called them like the
genius that lived in theartist's studios and i love that

(39:07):
analogy i think it's so greatand a person wasn't a genius the
genius was yes but then once therenaissance came it's like they
started calling peoplethemselves geniuses this was
like the story that she tells inthe ted talk that like really
really hit me and it's what ishappening to me kind of um so

(39:27):
there's this poet ruth stone andwhen she was a kid in rural
virginia she'd be out working inthe fields and she would feel
and hear a poem coming at herfrom the landscape and it would
like yeah so she's in the fieldshe like could hear it coming
and she would feel the groundlike vibrating under her feet

(39:48):
and she knew when she could feelit coming that she had to run
like hell back to the house soshe would start running and she
could kind of like feel the poemcoming after her and then she
would sit down and write it downand if she didn't get there soon
enough Paige soon enough thepoem would pass through her and
it would be on its way to findanother poet sure to express it

(40:09):
I mean it sounds a little nutsand I also love it so much yes
yes me too and it also makes methink about Harold Arlen was the
composer who did the music forthe Wizard of Oz okay he did
like hundreds of amazing songsbut he was working on the Wizard
of Oz and he was getting reallyfrustrated because they needed
like a ballad and it just wasn'tcoming and then his sweetheart

(40:33):
was like driving him around inHollywood and a melody came to
him and he's like pull over pullover and she had to pull over to
the side of the road and hejotted it down and it was
somewhere over the rainbow whatI'm talking about is like the
muse or like when you get thislike divine inspiration or maybe

(40:55):
it's divine maybe it's not butwhen you get inspired to make
art and how you have to do itright then hop on it and grab it
right then and if you don't dothat work it will pass on
through you to somebody else andI believe that there's just
something higher that needs tobe expressed I had this thing

(41:18):
recently where you know the lastseason of White Lotus of course
the character Chelsea who welove of course she has this line
she's like it's like we're inthis yin yang battle I'm hope
and Rick's pain and eventuallyone of us will win.
and she talks more about the yinyang in the season and I was so

(41:41):
pissed when she started talkingabout the yin yang because I was
like oh my god like that's minelike you own that it's in my
book it's a big part of my bookokay yes and I was like oh Mike
White like the muse like waslike oh Kayla's taking too long

(42:02):
Kayla can't get an agent let'sgo over to Mike White over here
who can get get this shit doneyeah okay I guess I don't
actually believe that but it waslike there's this thing um why
not Why not?
Why not believe that?
Yeah.
Who's going to tell you you'rewrong?
Yeah, I know.
That's kind of my vibe aboutlike the spiritual stuff right

(42:22):
now.
Totally.
Um, Alan Watts.
I think about this all the time.
Um, I had this weird yogainstructor who was like this
very spindly guy called Deeb.
Oh, I love Deeb.
I took classes from Deeb.
You did?
Yeah.
He's very bendy.
He's very bendy.
And skinny.
He's very skinny.
And he wears little shorts.

(42:43):
He sure does.
He does.
not even like shorts that aretight like they're loose yeah no
they're just loose shorts yeahin yoga yeah and I don't know if
he wears a shirt sometimes hedoes not you don't have to so he
said this once during yoga andit was during like a very
intense like bendy part wherewe're like holding some fucked

(43:06):
up bendy position you know whenyou're like I'm a pretzel how
did this happen how do I get outof this and then you just keep
breathing in it for like 50seconds and tell your mind goes
to a completely different place.
And then Dieb goes, we are theuniverse experiencing itself.
And I'm like, we are?
I love that.

(43:27):
So then I think about that allthe time.
We are the universe experiencingitself.
So I looked it up and it's anAlan Watts quote.
And he says it a bunch ofdifferent ways.
He says, It's cool.
I mean, it's true.
It gave me chills.

(43:48):
I feel like the universe, we arethe universe experiencing
experiencing itself and i thinkexpressing itself totally so i
feel like there's something withthat with the muse carl young
had this idea of the collectiveunconscious which suggests that
all humans share a commonpsychic realm it's inherited

(44:12):
from our ancestors rather thanbeing formed solely by
individual experiences sothere's your own unconscious
right but then there's like acollective one and that's where
like symbols reside and like theyin Absolutely.
Things that I feel like ringtrue for all of humanity.

(44:34):
Like the yin-yang, like there'ssomething, a little bit of good
and everything bad, and there'sa little bit of bad and
everything good.
Like, that just makes fuckingsense to us.
Right.
Oh, and then when you putsomething out into the universe,
it's out there now.
And, like, it's been out there,so it starts to, you know,
reverberate off of the otherthings, I feel like.
Yes.
Do you watch The Secret or readThe Secret?

(44:55):
I...
Yes, I did watch it back in theday.
I mean, obviously it's notexactly what you're talking
about, but it is also adjacent.
You know, like it's this...
The universe is bigger and it isall connected.
And so when you are manifestingsomething for yourself, you're
putting it out there, even ifit's still in your head.
And I think that things reallydo, you know, pass you by if...

(45:23):
you don't harness it.
Like if you thought it is, thatmeans it's out there.
Like, so take it or not.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
So it's been happening to me.
Um, like at night where I'vehad, weed and wine and stuff and
I stay up way too late I'm likea really bad sleeper 2 in the

(45:44):
morning or 3 in the morning andI'm tossing and turning and
stuff and then I get thisamazing idea and my husband is
sleeping beside me I need sleepso bad I'm like this is way past
the point like this is out ofcontrol if I don't fall asleep
now I'm gonna be so fuckedtomorrow and then all of a
sudden I get like the muse goeshey bitch and starts talking to
me I swear to god it's like mymuse is so annoying She's a

(46:12):
bitch.
I hate her.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what she's telling you?
I don't even know what she'stelling me.
What is happening?
So I'm starting a new novel andit's inspired.
Yeah.
Like it doesn't feel like thesame as, oh, I got this prompt
and I have to make this guy haveall these cats and let's see
what happens.
Like, which I think is greatpractice for the craft.

(46:33):
Like I think it is good.
Of course.
But it's like, I have to writethis, and nobody else...
If I saw this fucked up ideasomewhere else, I would...
puke and barf and shit and die.
It's so crazy.
I'm so excited.
So it's speculative.
Do you remember?

(46:54):
So I told you about this authorthat I love, Sayaka Murata, and
she writes these crazy storieslike Vanishing World where...
So I told you about SayakaMurata, who is this Japanese
writer, and she does this reallyavant-garde, crazy stuff about
these speculative worlds thatare close to our worlds, but

(47:14):
what she does is she takes...
conventions things that youthink you could never you could
never change like you you cannotsee a world this way like in her
sure like the sky is blue yesyes she has this story um in her
book of short stories calledlife ceremony where one when
somebody dies the way that youhonor them is to eat them oh to

(47:38):
feast on them okay as a groupyum yum yum don't yuck the yum
don't yuck yuck the yum yum Andyou think right now, that's so
gross.
The world could never look likethat.
And there's another thing wherepeople, they want their bones
and their skin and their hair,like everything to be of use

(48:00):
after they die.
I can get behind that.
Like their bones can be used tomake like furniture.
So you can be sitting on a chairand be like, that's grandma.
Okay.
And like there's this one womanwho she's like, her wedding veil
is given to her and it's hergrandfather's skin.
Ew.

UNKNOWN (48:15):
Ew.

SPEAKER_01 (48:16):
And it's, like, she describes it as, like, being,
like, translucent, and she putsit over her head, and it's
beautiful, and she can even see,like, her grandfather's mole.
What the

SPEAKER_02 (48:26):
fuck?

SPEAKER_01 (48:28):
Well, that is definitely...
Inspired.
Yeah.
By the muse.
Yeah.
So, anyways, my thing is sort oflike that.
Cool.
Like, not like that, but...
In a way where you're like, thatcould never happen.
I can't imagine a world likethat.
But then I want to frame it insuch a way that it becomes true.

(48:49):
Kind of like that book SharkHeart.
Yeah, I was just thinking thatwhen you were saying that.
Part of our discussion in bookgroup was how this world, people
mutate into animals.
And they don't have anyscientific explanation for it
throughout the book.
Which some people were sayingthat maybe they would have
liked.

UNKNOWN (49:09):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (49:09):
And majority of us were like, no, it's better that
it's not explained because thenit makes it, then you can take
yourself out of this world andyou have to come back into
reality and make sense of it.
just people mutating animalsthat's what it is in this world
and people wear skin in thatwoman's world yes and it's um

(49:29):
yeah it's like you have tosuspend your disbelief to buy in
and i think also like if youdon't be like oh this book is
describing what would actuallyhave to happen biologically for
this to like take place withinthe body and then you get to
sort of make your own littleinferences and be like oh like

(49:50):
what how

SPEAKER_02 (49:51):
would um I've

SPEAKER_01 (49:52):
thought of something like that has happened before.
And like, what if evolution wassped up and like, or like, you
don't even have to because youcan just follow the plot and
fall in love with thecharacters.
Right.
So anyways, that's what I wantto do.
I want to be this one of theselike weird girl lit kind of
thing.
I love it.
And I feel like.
really excited but my other bookwasn't like that so i don't know

(50:15):
we'll see we'll see what happensso well but the muse the other
night she came to me in themiddle of the night and i just i
didn't um i didn't you didn't goto her oh no what happened i was
just so tired and i it was likeyou have written since right
Yes.
Okay.

(50:35):
Oh no.
Kayla.
She, she gave me an idea likefor, like I've written down sort
of like some stuff about whatthis book is going to be.
And then there was like thiswhole other idea about it that
was like really cool, but Idon't remember it.
It came in the middle of thenight and what I needed to do
was grab my phone and justquickly make some notes about
it.
That's what I've been doing, butI didn't do it.

(50:56):
Or even, do you ever use voicememos?
Just, just say it real quick.
I mean, I guess you're trying tobe quiet for your husband, but
yeah, but maybe just, Hey,you're, Just, like, whisper into
your phone.
You're married to a crazyartist.
That's funny because you are uplate and I am up early.
I have been waking up at 4 a.m.
every morning the past, like,four days just, like, I have to

(51:20):
write.
I have to write this story, thisdinner for eight thing.
I have just, like, I can't...
Literally this morning I was upat 3.58 and I was, like...
I'm not going to go back tosleep.
I'm going to make myself a cupof coffee and just write.
And so it's been that for thepast few days.
And I'm having so much fun withit.

SPEAKER_02 (51:38):
Oh, my

SPEAKER_01 (51:38):
God.
This story is really fun.
So this story is spicy.
It's got a little spice in it.
Okay, so you guys will rememberthat I did not...
I've never written Spice before.
I had never written it before.
And then I had a classmate whowas like, are you even into
dudes?
And I was like, I think I am.

(52:00):
Oh, are you even into dudes?
Yeah.
Which I am into dudes.
I am married to a man.
However, I was like, okay, butclearly I don't know what I'm
doing when it comes to writingit.
And we talked about how I'm notan, like, I'm a little bit of a
closed off person.
So in the story that I hadwritten originally, the ghost

(52:22):
story, It made sense that I waswriting it as it happened
because it was a true story tome.
And that is literally how I act.
So I needed to remove myself.
So this story that I'm nowcurrently working on, some
classmates of I and I, theystarted a prompt page where they

(52:43):
just write prompts for eachother.
Majority of the little group inthat class are poets.
So they were writing poetryprompts for each other.
And I...
I can do poetry.
I'm not...
I now can accept that I can dopoetry.
They were putting these prompts.

(53:03):
Okay.
whatever I was like I'm gonnaadd some but I'm gonna add some
that are good for short storiesbecause that's where I reside I
reside in a short story world atthis time and one of the prompts
that I put up so I promptedmyself is what I'm saying really
but I wasn't planning onprompting myself okay I was
writing it like okay I'm gonnawrite it for you guys this

(53:25):
prompt I put out there You'rehaving a dinner party for eight
people.
And you have a night of games toplay.
One of the guests brings a date.
And it is your secret ex thatyou've toiled over for years.
But only the two of you know.
That's the prompt.
Sexual.
Yeah.
So, I started...

(53:46):
I was like, okay, I'm just goingto have fun with it.
And all of these people arelike, you know, 20 years younger
than me.
So, I was like, I'm just goingto write something and...
Whatever.
They're over 18.
Like...
I'm going to test it out becauseit could get sexy, right?

(54:08):
And the first little...
You know, like, all these peopleare coming to the party and then
this ex comes through the door.
And, like, so I write thislittle piece where, like, she...
Like, they see each other.
She can, like, remember how hefelt against her skin.
You know, like, all of this.
And it was good.
And I was like, oh, my God.

(54:28):
Have I finally met a sex muse, aspice muse for myself in
writing?
I think I did.
So this character, this guy thatcomes through the door, he makes
you think of horny things.
This character.
Yeah.
He's a...
And so you needed to takeyourself out of it, you said,

(54:51):
because the sexy thing...
Like, you just wrote aboutmaking out with a dude outside
of the door of an apartment, andthat was something that had
really happened, and this is theway that you acted.
Right.
But then your classmates werelike...
Does she even like dudes?
She doesn't even seem like shelikes that guy.
And you're like, what?
This was like a cute, sexy,flirty little scene.

(55:13):
So you're like, okay, well, I'lltake myself out of it.
And I'm just going to be fromthe character.
And then I'll be lessuncomfortable if I'm thinking of
like...
My own experiences.
So these are your own feelingsand experiences, or you're like,
this character feels this way?
None of them are things thathave actually happened.
So I think that that's key forme.
It has to be a situation thathas not actually happened.

(55:36):
My imagination can work for me,but my reality...
I don't know how to put, I can'ttranscribe it.
You know, and I think that thatwas the problem with the ghost
story, is I was trying totranscribe this interaction that
happened between me and thisex-boyfriend in Modesto.
You know, like, that wasn't agood, that wasn't a good moment.

(55:56):
However...
What, the actual time when theguy...
I wasn't into him.
So it made sense that theythought I wasn't into dudes.
That's so funny that it came outthat they could feel that
because you didn't...
In the story, you didn't say,like, ugh, and it wasn't that
great, but...

(56:16):
No, because, I mean, in themoment when I was 18...
It was fun.
It was fun.
I was making out with the guy atthe front door.
I didn't realize that mybitchiness...
in real life was coming out onthe paper as much as it was.
Oh.
Rachel's sassy.
I'm quite sassy.
She's got a little sass goingon.
But it's fun.

(56:36):
This story has been, thiscurrent one has been fun to
write because I'm like, okay, sothere's, they're exes.
So they have a history and theyhave had all of this sex and
they've had all of this likehistory together but it's a
secret which makes it evensexier.
Like their group of friendsdoesn't know or this group of

(56:56):
friends, that's her friends,don't know about that they had
ever dated.
Whoa.
And like, there's some intrigue.
And does he come with someoneelse?
Yeah.
As a date.
And does she have a date or ahusband or anything?
She has a wife.
And the...
A wife! Yeah, and this woman...
Okay, so it's a group of eightfriends.

(57:17):
This woman is hosting a dinnerparty.
She thinks she's inviting hersix closest friends, and then
her husband's also there.
And...
Or her wife's also there.
No, the main character ismarried to a man.
Oh.
Then the husband's best friendis this lesbian woman.
Oh.
And then it's the lesbianwoman's wife who brings this

(57:40):
other guy that she had met at aconcert.
And...
The wife is like, we are goingthrough a hard time.
I'm trying to mix it up.
And the...
I don't know.
God, I'm fucking this up.
But wait, wait, wait.
The other wife didn't know.
Do you want to tell everybodythis part?
Like, about everything that'sgoing on in your story?

(58:02):
I don't know.
I feel like it's fine.
I mean, the connection isn'tvery minimal.
Like, that doesn't reallymatter.
Oh, okay.
I don't think.
So I'm...
Sort of following.
I'm sure that on the page, like,it's all clear.
Yes.
But, you know, E.L.
James, the writer of 50 Shadesof Grey, she tried everything

(58:28):
out on her husband.
She did?
Yeah.
They had a red room of pain intheir house?
I don't know, but it's funnybecause they're sort of, okay.
They're not like...
They don't look like porn stars.

(58:48):
They're a basic old whitecouple.
Yeah, yeah, basic older, yeah.
And so you're like, whoa.
And she's like, yeah.
Which I kind of get it becausethe staging with sex, it's like
you have to actually be able toput your hand there and reach
over there and, you know, rollaround that way.

(59:09):
So I guess she was just...
Doing some research, so...
Doing the research.
So she just got out a fewpaddles and had him take a
whack?
Is that what happened?
Oh my god, I never read thatbook.
But yeah, I can only imagine.
But yeah, so are you gonna...
Do that.
Practice with my husband.

(59:31):
No, maybe.
I don't know.
I guess it depends where itgoes.
I think my husband would have tohave a new personality because
the sexy scenes that have beenwritten thus far are like sex
out at a concert and likethey're memories that she's
having of times that her and herex have hooked up.
In public.
Yeah, and then it's likeflashing back because he's there

(59:54):
sitting in front of her and it'slike this...
hot like i'm getting hot fantasywhere it's like this happened
you know and she's rememberingand getting hot oh she's getting
a little wet i'm getting a bigwetty and it's fun i'm so glad
that like finally i'm feeling alittle inspired to write this

(01:00:17):
kind of stuff because i was alittle scared after our
conversation a few episodes agowhere I was like, maybe I just
am like a dried up old troll.
You know?
Like, maybe I don't have it inme to write that.
Because the other novel I'vebeen working on with Carolyn...
She hasn't gotten laid in a longtime.

(01:00:41):
Well, I think that not everybook has sex in it.
That's true.
And I don't know if I broughtthis up before, but that Shark
Heart book, do they ever havesex in that book?
Well, they never talk about it.
However...
She's pregnant at the end.
With a shark?
With a shark.
Oh, she's fucked.
No, she's not pregnant with ashark.

(01:01:02):
She's pregnant and it is ahuman.
But she did have sex with himwhile he was a shark.
A full shark.
Like a majority shark.
Like he was in the shark...
I don't...
You don't know how much, but heprobably still had a penis?
I assume.
I don't know if sharks havethose.
I'm not familiar with theanatomy of a shark.

(01:01:23):
I don't...
think so but I do know thatthere's a big conversation in
the book where she's talkingabout kissing him and like the
on a shark the scales can onlygo one direction otherwise it
cuts you it's like razors on theother so if you like you can go
pet down like a hedgehog youknow like you can pet down but

(01:01:44):
you can't pet up you know and Sothey talk about that.
So clearly it's a thing.
I feel like you'd have to besliding off and getting back on
and sliding off and getting backon.
Because you couldn't do a normalhumping motion.
No, up and down.
That would be razors, right?
Oh my gosh.
I hope it all worked out forthose characters.

(01:02:07):
Well, he's released in theocean.
Okay.
She's happily with child.
But anyways, what I mean is likethat book was all about like
this relationship and how muchthey love each other.
And I just couldn't believe thatthey're, they, I'm like, so
you're just not going to tell usabout their sex life when
they're like this like marriedcouple.

(01:02:29):
Like, but there's lots of booksthat just like, don't go there.
And like, it's, it's fine.
But for me, it's just such a bigpart of, Like, life.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:40):
But at the same time, like, I poop every day,
and that will never be in mybook.
I will never write aboutsomebody doing that.
Don't say never.
Maybe.
Scatological.
Maybe.
So you don't have to.
Maybe for some people, sex islike pooping, and they just
think it's gross.
They don't want to talk.

(01:03:00):
We are going off the rails rightnow.
Who knows?
Okay, I figured out how to writeSpice.
This is exciting.
And was there anything else thatwe were going to talk about
today?
And what are we going to talkabout next week?
Do we have something in mind fornext week, next episode?
Oh, okay.
Well, one thing that I...
I have a couple things that Iwanted to talk...

(01:03:22):
talk about and look into maybewith you.
So there's this guy, BrandonSanderson.
Have you heard of him?
I have not.
He's a fantasy writer.
He's wildly successful, popular.
And I would love to talk abouthim.
He has YouTube videos aboutcraft and about being an author
that are supposedly really,really good.

(01:03:42):
So I want to watch those andmaybe send those to you and we
can talk about that.
And then there's also thisconcept of something called
this-ness and I want to talkabout what this-ness is and then
maybe we can both try to infuseour writing with a little bit of
this-ness but I'm not ready tolike talk about that today okay

(01:04:05):
okay yeah yeah for next timeyeah but we don't have like a
prompt or anything no no promptum but we'll just keep writing
and we'll talk more about thatnext time yeah definitely okay
bye everybody goodbye