Enneagram for Writing Characters

It’s a craft special! We kick off with Elizabeth Gilbert’s latest (yes, the hairdresser, the church, the drugs—what is even happening), then dive into the good stuff: how to build believable, unforgettable characters using the Enneagram. Rachel walks us through types, wings, stress/safety arrows, and why intention > vibes, while Kayla talks “thisness,” denial as a human engine, and how appearance can serve plot (hi, Lani). We compare detailed character bibles vs. trusting your brain, debate how much “looks” to include, touch representation + writing to market, and share a wicked prompt: take a free Enneagram test as your character—especially your protag and your monster-in-the-house.

In this episode

• A spicy, spoiler-lite chat about Liz Gilbert’s new memoir and why readers love messy truth
• Enneagram 101 for writers: the 9 types, wings, stress/safety moves—fast and practical
• Using type arcs (unhealthy → healthy) as a built-in character transformation
• Backstory, “funny hat” details, and the “thisness” that makes scenes feel real
• Character dossiers vs. discovery writing (and how not to contradict yourself)
• Trends, MSWLs, and the trap of writing to market
• A short-story spark from Kayla you won’t forget (turquoise glitter… say no more)

Try this

Take an Enneagram quiz as your protagonist and antagonist, then outline three moments where their type drives a surprising choice.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Write your heart out.

SPEAKER_00 (00:06):
Hi, I'm Kayla Ogden and I'm Rachel Searr.
And this is Write Your HeartOut.

unknown (00:12):
Woo!

SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Here we are.
Here we are.
And today is a very specialcraft-centered episode where
we're gonna be talking aboutcharacter development.
Yes, my fave.
Which is Rachel's fave, and Ireally need help with this.
And we're gonna do it, I think,through the lens of the
Enneagram.
But first I want to talk aboutElizabeth Gilbert's new book.

(00:33):
I said, Rachel, you have tolisten to this or read this or
something.
Everybody's talking about it.
I didn't do that.
I forgot.

SPEAKER_02 (00:39):
You forgot?

SPEAKER_03 (00:41):
Yes, you forgot.

SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
I'm sorry.
I just like completely blockedher out of my brain.
Sorry, Liz.

SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
It's hard to block her out of your brain, dude.
She is so intense.
She's like one of the mostintense person that I've ever.
She's the most intense memoirthat I've ever read.
That's what this is.

SPEAKER_02 (00:59):
I mean, her Eat Prey Love like made waves.
How many, like 20 years ago?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04):
I think like 20 years ago.
So you think this one's makingwaves too?
Oh my gosh.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
And the the thing about this is so Oprah's talking
about it.
Um she went on fresh air, whichI haven't listened to her
interviews about it, but I'vebeen listening to the book, and
I'm about halfway through thebook, and there's a lot of like
salaciousness around the newsabout this book because it's

(01:29):
about her leaving her marriagefor her hairdresser.

SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Like which is uh male female male from had she
always uh like consideredherself bisexual or was this
new?

SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
She was married to a man and the only way that she
addresses that her sexuality inthe book is to say that she
couldn't give a shit what genderher lover is.
Like she just couldn't give ashit.
Yeah, she's like pan, it soundslike so she's married and she is
really trying to be good.
She's in the tenth year of hermarriage, she's really trying

(02:02):
not to cheat on him or doanything bad.
And then she has this likereally deep and abiding
friendship and relationship withher hairdresser, and then her
hairdresser gets diagnosed withterminal cancer.

SPEAKER_02 (02:16):
Hmm, that's sad.

SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
Yeah, and they're like, Oh, she has six months to
live, or something like that.
And then Liz or ElizabethGilbert goes, Okay, there's no
time for me not to confess thatI'm so deeply in love with her.
You know, like time is runningout, and the last months of her
life, she needs to know this,and we need to be together.
Because the hairdresser ReaElias in the book, she they're

(02:40):
like, Okay, well, you're gonnadie in six months.
Let's just do all of thesedrugs.
Oh, okay, let's do every drug.
Sure.
Let's just do whatever the fuckwe want.
Elizabeth Gilbert had boughtthis church, this old church,
and they were like living in thechurch and doing all sorts of
drugs all the time and justgoing psychotic in there.
Wow.
Then jump in head first.

(03:02):
Raya Elias just kept on livingthough.
Oh no.
I mean, I mean, great.

SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
I like not that she should die.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
No, but it's like you're sort of like, okay, for
three months or six months orwhatever, we're gonna go balls
to the wall, we're gonna do allthese drugs, and it doesn't
really matter because you'regonna die and we're just gonna
go out in like a burst of flameor whatever.
But then it's like, oh, like ifyou live for another two years,
now you're like a crazed addict.
Yeah, like now you have toreally feed your addiction, like

(03:30):
you're fucked.

SPEAKER_02 (03:31):
Yeah, you can't get out of that church, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
And so they it gets really, really dark between them
there.
And Rhea is like super abusiveto Elizabeth Gilbert.
And then when Elizabeth Gilbertis like, she's never gonna die,
like, when is she gonna die?
She like clots to kill her, andshe like takes some of the
pills, and she goes and sits ona bench by the river, and she's

(03:54):
like, How am I gonna?
I have to etch these pills sothey look like the other pills,
so that when she takes them,she'll she thinks they're this,
but they're that, so that she'lldie.
Oh my god.
And then she goes back to thechurch and she said she was just
like elated, and she just sortof bounces into the church.
She's like, Yes, like there's anend in sight, like I'm gonna do
this.
And then Rhea immediately looksat her and says, Don't start

(04:15):
plotting against me now, bitch.
Oh my god! Like she just knew,like she just saw her and just
knew what she was.
But she was also like veryparanoid.
Right.
Well, the drugs will do that,yeah.
And so, but this so that's thesalaciousness around this book.
People are like, What the fuck?
Seriously.
She's a highly decorated writerand author.

(04:36):
She has these amazing TED Talks,she has books on the craft of
writing, and then this is hersecond memoir, but she also
writes fiction, and she's alsovery spiritual.
She's like a leader, she's aphilanthropist, like she's just
such a shining light.
Right.
And then she puts out thismemoir about what she's what's
actually been going on in herlife, and it is so crazy and

(04:57):
dark.
Wow.
But it's also incredibly wellwritten, there's a lot of wisdom
in there, and it's fascinating.
So I would highly, highlyrecommend.
And you finished it.
You read the whole thing?
No, I'm halfway through.
Okay.
So I don't know what's gonnahappen.
Like Rhea hasn't died yet in itor anything.
But she is, she has passed.

(05:18):
She has passed now.

SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
Okay, yeah.
Oh well, that sounds like quitethe story.
Uh you know, it's like uhreality stranger than fiction,
sort of uh, you know, like youdon't really know what's
happening in people's lives.

SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
And this is true, you know, and yeah, I wanted to
hear your thoughts, but I guessthose ain't coming.
Are you gonna listen to it?

SPEAKER_02 (05:36):
All right, it does actually sound really
interesting.
I I'll add it.
I I did buy it, I have it in myum audible.
So I will be listening to it.
I just forgot that it was inthere.
Like I legitimately just whoopout of my brain.

SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Well, so we talked about that, and now it's time
for our I think it's time forour deep dive into the craft of
creating characters.

SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
Creating characters.
I love creating characters.
I think that it goes back to mychildhood where I had, I
wouldn't say I had imaginaryfriends, like there was no Tony,
my friend with a backstory, butI had like a very in-depth
imagination.
So like I had a classroom ofstudents and I was their

(06:21):
teacher, and I would like writeout pages of homework and hand
it out to this imaginaryclassroom, and then I would do
all the homework and hand itback in so I could then grade
it.
Oh my god, so like backstory isimportant to me.
I feel like um my little brotherwas pretty much my my toy, and
so but I would always often givehim like a very elaborate

(06:43):
backstory.
Like he was a baby that wasfound in a box by you know, like
what like he had like a wholebackstory.
Very interesting.
And I guess like I kind of dothat with people too.
Like, I really want tounderstand their backstory to
like understand them.
So maybe it's like a thing Ineed.
What do you how do you feelabout characters and backstory?
And do you have any of thatrelation?

SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
Yeah, I mean, I more so than characters and
individual people themselves.
Something that I guess I'm moreinterested in terms of character
is like the human condition.

SPEAKER_03 (07:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (07:13):
So, for example, in Pillow Forts Down, I really
explore the power of denialbecause I think denial is
actually insane.
How it can blind us to reality.
And a weird example is when Iwas a teenager, my sister and I,
my mom was in bed upstairs, andmy sister and I went outside to

(07:33):
smoke a doobie.
Do people still know what adoobie is?
I think so.
I feel like that's a classicterm.
All right, right?
Smoke a blunt.
Um there weren't really likegummies around back then.
No.
Or vapes.
We just we roll, we had stickybuds and we would, you know, rip
them up and roll it up, lick it,and go outside at night when my

(07:55):
mom was asleep and we weresmoking it.
And then we hear my mom likecoming down the stairs, and
we're like, oh shit, oh shit.
And my mom comes downstairs andcomes out and she's like, You
girls are smoking weed downhere.
And my sister was like, No,mother, we're not.
That's those guys down thestreet.
And my mom's like, really?
And like you could, it was thickin the air.

(08:16):
It was like the weed smoke waslaying in the air.
My mom was getting high off ofit, just standing there.
Right.
And my mom's like, okay, my poormother.
She's like half asleep orwhatever, and she just kind of
like backs up and like goes upthe stairs.
She didn't want to see it.
Right.
Right?
And there's so many things thatI think that parents don't want
to see about their kids.

SPEAKER_02 (08:37):
Oh, I have a very similar story with my dad, and
we're like full-on denial aboutme smoking cigarettes in his
car.
Like, you know, just uh and uh,you know, like he would come out
and he would be like, My carsmells like cigarettes, and I'd
be like, Oh, it must have beenmy friends smoking outside and
the windows were down.
And like, I know he knew, and heknew he knew, and it was just

(08:58):
like, okay, like yeah, you know,and it's a little bit of a pick
your battle, you know,situation.
I'm sure when you haveteenagers, like you gotta, I'm
I'm sure obviously we don't knowyet, but like I'm sure you gotta
pick your battles there.

SPEAKER_01 (09:09):
I'm sure you do, but at the same time, like I'll tell
my mom stuff that Megan and Iwere getting up to in those
years, and I'll tell her stuffthat I know she knew.
Like, I remember us dealing withthese things as a family, and my
mom will just go, No, no, youweren't like that.
That never happened you didn'tknow.

SPEAKER_02 (09:26):
My mom does the same thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
And she wants to remember things cherry-picking
what she remembers, yes,subconsciously, and that is
definitely a denial, yeah.
Being very strong, yeah.
So it's those types of thingswhen I see like a phenomena
among like human nature orbehavior or culture.
I like to explore that with mycharacters, sure, not so much

(09:49):
the individual like being Godand like creating like a whole
person with like a backstory anda psyche and stuff, yeah.
Um, like people say that they'retalking to their characters,
sure.
Like I don't really do that.
No, no, do you?

SPEAKER_02 (10:03):
Um, I don't think I talk to my characters, however,
I do feel like they have verydistinct personalities.
Okay, so then do your characterssurprise you?
How do they like when you'rewriting, is it I mean you're
writing as Lonnie, right?
Is first person, or is it you'renot first person, are you?
Uh no, I'm third person close.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
It's not as much about the character as it is
about the plot, I think, in thestory.
Sure.
Yeah, a character surprising me.
No.
No?
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (10:32):
I I feel like there's gotta be a million ways
to do this.

SPEAKER_01 (10:35):
So yeah, I don't think there's a right or a wrong
way.
I would really like to be morecharacter-driven.

SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
Yeah.
What I do is I legitimatelycreate an outline, and I'm gonna
pull it up so I can show you.
Carolyn.
Her last name's Kirshner.
Physical.
She has like a whole physicalparagraph, uh, better than
average, still suburban mom,hair colored every 10 eight to
10 weeks with as trims asneeded, gets manicure, pedicure

(11:00):
whenever she can, tired eyes,but they're bright green, used
to be more alive, olive skinthat tans beautifully.
Uh, she hasn't ventured intoBotox, although her friends
have, and she's thought about ita million times, 11s between her
brows that are getting worse.
So, like all these things thathave been like picked out in the
book.
As I'm creating her, I I'm likealso making notes.

(11:23):
If if she's talking aboutsomething with somebody and it
appearance comes into it, like Igo back into the here and it
like double check that I hadn'tcontradicted myself, and then
also add that to the list.
Oh neat.
And then her husband has hisown.
She's widowed.
Chris was she was married to for12 years before he died.
Uh, and then activities they didtogether.

(11:44):
Like, I have a whole list ofthat, and then a smaller profile
for each child that they have.
Tessa, who you heard about in uhin my first little short story.
Madeline and Thomas.
And then their school schedule Ihave like in here, the family I
have in there, dad, the brotherseach have a profile so that I
like don't forget because I'mlike very scared that I'm gonna

(12:08):
forget about things that I'veput in there.
Then there's like look, it'slike multiple pages long.
Wow.
Like home life.

SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (12:16):
The aunts to the kids are the best friends.
Each of them has a littleprofile within this.

SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
And then So do you you actually reference this all
the time while you're writing?
I do.
Like it's kind of open at thesame time?

SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
Uh yeah.
Whoa.
So I guess my question is whenyou're writing, aren't you ever
worried about how are you sureyou're not gonna contradict
yourself?
Or do you think you're justgonna catch that in editing?

SPEAKER_01 (12:39):
I'm trying to think back on if I did contradict
myself in terms of thecharacters.
And I don't think that I did atall.
Um, I did write down certainthings, but I feel like I just
remember them.
I just know what they look likein my head.
Yeah.
And I know their backstories,not that in depth though.

SPEAKER_03 (13:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:01):
So my book has like a lot of plot, so there isn't a
lot of like lingering on thingsthat happened in the past or
little details about, you know,home life or whatever it is.
But I think that having all ofthat would really enrich the
work because having reallycrisp, specific details in the

(13:23):
work makes things really likecome alive.

SPEAKER_03 (13:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
A favorite chipped mug that cuts her lip and she
still uses it, or you know,these or this is what they were
gonna do today, but they decidedto do this other thing because
you know what their schedule islike, you know what their life
is like, like this all enrichesthings a lot.
Sure.
But I don't worry aboutforgetting about them because I

(13:46):
just know and I go over it somany times.
Like you write so quickly.
That's true.
But if I write a chapter, I'llwrite it and I'll go over, I'll
comb through it a bunch oftimes.
Sure, of course.
So that by the time I move on,like it's really I really know,
I feel like I know everythingthat I've written in my book.
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (14:03):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I have the same.
Hers isn't as long, but Dana,her mom, who I feel like kind of
is gonna end up deserving herown book.
Um so she also has her owncharacter.

SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
Yeah, the mom has a so I've only read or heard about
the short story.
Right.
What was that one called?
The compliment.
The compliment.
Yeah, which I loved.
The mom isn't in that one atall.
No.
Is the mom a a huge character?
Is she another like protagonist?

SPEAKER_02 (14:33):
Or is she She's no, she's not she's not at all in
the in Carolyn, but she is acharacter in Carolyn.
So I started cre and and okay,so I was on Burlingame Avenue
one day, and which is a popularstreet in our town.
And um, there's this woman, andI saw her and I was like, that's

(14:54):
her.
That's Dana.
Like she was like this gorgeouswoman from the back, you would
have thought she was like 30tops, snatched, and then from
the front, it was like, Oh,you're 70.

SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
And that's my biggest fear.
That's like I I always I don'twant to dress too young or
anything, so that when peopleare like, Oh, hey, what's up?
And then I turn around andthey're like, Oh, it's a ghoul.

SPEAKER_02 (15:20):
I mean, this woman's hair, like, you know how like
older women have a hair, theyhave hairstyles.
This woman, it was likeluscious, like a luscious mane.
And I was like, that's Dana.
And like, so then I created thiswhole thing about Dana, and and
as I was creating it, I waslike, she needs her own book
because she is fucking nuts.
And Dana's Dana's bananas.

SPEAKER_01 (15:40):
That's that's crazy that you created all of that for
a character that like a minorminor character, but it also
reminds me of have you ever readArmistead Maupin?
I have not.
Wrote the Tales of the Citybooks, and they are all about
San Francisco, and each one isfrom the point of view of a
different like character, butthey're all set in the same kind

(16:04):
of like timeline and in the samecity.

SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
So the when when I get back to the Carolyn world,
that is that's the plan.
If Carolyn works, move on toanother character in this family
because this family is veryinteresting.
I love that.
Yeah, it's like a family sagakind of thing.
Yeah, but from each differentpoint of view of the mom point
of view versus the daughter'spoint of view, yeah versus one

(16:26):
of the brothers, and one of thebrothers is like kind of fucked
up.

SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Like so, I think with um Armisted Maupin's
series, The Tales of the City,which is really great, uh, I
think that it all takes place,all of these books, different
characters, I think they kind ofall take place over like a
20-year span or something likethat.
Have you thought about um ifyour characters will like come

(16:52):
of age?
Like will Dana's book showCarolyn as a kid and stuff, or
will it all be like in the same?

SPEAKER_02 (16:59):
I haven't thought about that because I haven't
started Dana's book.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Um, but perhaps, I mean, itcould be more filled with
memories.
I have kind of figured out forher is that she is like very
unsettled in her life, but islike is still married to the dad
like to Carolyn's dad, maybe asa lesbian, but she doesn't like
she's never because she grew upyou know in a time where she

(17:23):
couldn't act on that, doesn'teven know where to start with
that.
And so it could go back intolike memories of not
understanding herself as alesbian, yeah, or something.
That'd be interesting.
This is really cool.
Okay.
Um, okay.
One of the big things in myoutlines is what they look like.
How did you decide what yourcharacters look like, or does it

(17:46):
matter to you as much?
Because what they look like forsome really matters to me.
Like as we've talked about it,like go into really what they're
wearing at the dinner party fordinner for eight and all that
stuff.
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (17:56):
The way that they look is very important, maybe
especially because they're womenand we think about the way that
we look all day, or I doanyways, which is a really
embarrassing um confession.
The way that Lonnie looks is apart of the plot because she
thinks that she has a particularbiological father, but it turns

(18:18):
out to be like a differentperson, and then she realizes,
like, oh, I look like thisbecause uh that's my dad kind of
thing.
So that's huge.
Um, and it also has to do withlike the way that people treat
her, like she has really bigboobs, for example, and that
plays into her life.
Her mom is a picture perfectmodel, and so who is constantly

(18:42):
trying to push that onto herdaughter and bleaches her hair
and wants her to look a certainway.
Um, and then I try to make allthe characters look kind of
different, and I try to makethem look like people from
Vancouver.
So I try to represent likepeople of like Asian descent or

(19:03):
First Nations people and whitepeople, and I try to have a cast
of characters that representswhat it would really be like to
live there, and I want people tolook different for I'm thinking
of the reader.
I'm like, how are they gonna?
So Neil Gaiman has a quote wherehe says, give your character a
funny hat, which is basicallylike give them a limp, give them

(19:26):
a tick, give them a, you know,make their mouth too big for
their face.
Just something to differentiatethe character, give them a funny
hat.
So I think that if you've got ahousehold of people that are all
related, they're gonna be allhave the same skin color,
similar, probably hair and eyesand everything else, right?
So how are how are wedifferentiating them?

(19:47):
Is one goth?
Like, sure, right?
Whatever, right?

SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
I'm trying to think of like books that I've read
that don't really go over looksall that much.
And I feel like I've read quitea lot of books where you don't
really go into what thecharacters look like.
You have a basic idea, yeah, andthen that's it.

SPEAKER_01 (20:05):
I think it was Stephen King who said, He's
like, I have no time to readabout people's clothes.
He's like, I could not careless.
Interesting.
He's like, when people go onabout this kind of buttons and
this kind of shoes and this kindof that or whatever, it's
whatever.
He's like, you know, say oncethat they're a dapper dresser,
or that they always look shabby,or that, you know, sure she

(20:27):
wears loose, flowing hippieclothes or whatever.
Say it once, I got you.

SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
Okay.
I mean, well, that doesperspective.
I I mean, obviously she'scurrently canceled, but JK
Rowling, she describes Harry andshe describes Ron, and then
there's the whole thing aboutshe describes Hermione a little
bit, but then uh in one of theversions, uh, she's played by a
a black girl, and I think it'sone that's gonna come out, or

(20:54):
it's one that did come out, ormaybe it was the stage version.
There was something, and Iremember it like coming up as
this article that was like, Shecan't be black.
And I remember being like, Well,she says she has like big hair
that's really like kind of outof control a little bit, but
that's the only reallydescribing feature about
Hermione, you know.
There's yes, she could be, shecould be, like, and there's no

(21:15):
reason not.
And then as I was reading thatarticle, and it was a long time
ago, I can't I can't source itor anything, but I was like, Oh
yeah, she did actually leave alot of room up for
interpretation, you know.
Like we know the uniform, so weknow what she's wearing, and we
know that she's got you know,like bigger hair, but beyond
that, yeah, you know, and likeyou assume Ron is, you know,

(21:39):
ginger skin because he's aredhead.
Yeah.
And assume that with his wholeWeasley family, right?

SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
The reader's mind will fill in the blanks when it
comes to the way people look andare dressed.

SPEAKER_02 (21:54):
I do care a lot about what they look like in my
writing.
I definitely go in obviouslyfrom what I've said thus far, go
into a lot of detail about whatthey look like.
And I, you know, down to whatthey're wearing, obviously.
I guess it really wraps back in.
I do incorporate it a lot, youknow.
Like there's one character inDinner for Eight, this woman

(22:14):
Jenny, who has like a high pony.
And like there's another partwhere like she has to like
loosen her hair because it's tootight.
Cause it's like yeah, and andthat's also real, right?

SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
It's real part of it.
That's great.
Those those tiny, very specificdetails.
That's uh what's that thing wetalked about that time?

unknown (22:32):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
Oh yeah, we talked way too much for that.
Um here, let me get it.
It's the thisness.
Oh yes, yeah.
Right.
Um the thisness guy.
That was the funniest story Iever listened to on TV.
Hessety.
Oh, okay.
Um so that's the this-ness ofyour book, is that she's pulling

(22:52):
on her her ponytail because it'stoo tight on her head.
That's the this-ness of theroom.
So I think that that's great.
And also, I'm trying to get awayfrom all of these old dudes'
advice.
Like, you know how I'm alwayspulling it up and I was writing
based on all that stuff.
Sure.
And it's not necessarily thebest way to do it.

(23:14):
Oh, I wanted to say one morething on that point was um, have
you ever read A Little Life byHanya?
I have not.
No.
Okay, so it was a huge umbestseller.
I don't know if you recognizethe do you recognize that?
Nope.
Oh, he looks very distressed.
Yeah, so it was like a hugebook.
It follows these characters,Anna, Jude, JB, Willem, Malcolm,

(23:38):
and Harold.
And um after I read it, I read areview of it, and it was saying
that Jude, the main character,it's like, we don't know what
race he is.
Yeah.
One of the characters I think weknow that they we think that
they're black, but I think allthe other characters are
racially ambiguous.

SPEAKER_02 (23:54):
Interesting.
Yeah, so okay, so then uh I Idon't know anything about how to
like how publishing itself worksand like the PR behind it and
how to pick a cover and all ofthose things.
But so like the cover of thisbook is a white guy who's like
clearly distressed.

SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
And so like he's white then.

SPEAKER_02 (24:11):
Right, so like that makes me assume he's white.
But then how much does theauthor get to choose then?
Is that something we're like,okay, well, is the character
white?
Because now's you know, now'scrunch time, figure it out.
Wow, and I'm so curious, youknow, because we've talked a
little bit about book coversbecause when you were talking
about you don't like um like theclassic clip arty animated or

(24:35):
the cartoony book covers.
And I I don't really give thatmuch thought to covers, but that
would be like a very criticalcover to choose, right?
If it's like this white guy, butthen all of your characters are
racially ambiguous.

SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yeah, I'm so curious.
I'm just getting a thing whereit says, Um, what race is Jude?
Early in the book, anothercharacter says to him, You're
not white.
Okay, so that's leaves a lot ofwiggle room.
Yeah, and then this person onGoodreads says, It is almost
impossible to imagine a blackfoundling in rural Montana or
South Dakota being kept in amonastery.

(25:10):
What?
Okay, that must have somethingto do with the story that I
forget.
Um so maybe like NativeAmerican.
Yeah, but so somebody says he'snot white, but then there's a
white guy on the cover.
Okay.
Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
Okay, was um the author annoyed by that?
Well, and did the author keep afucking outline of their
characters?
I would love to know how manyauthors keep an outline of
characters versus, you know,just just know their characters
in their head, like you.
Like I would I I mean, I have afear that I'm gonna forget all

(25:41):
these details, which is youknow, like I'm definitely making
that outline out of fear thatI'll do it, I'll contradict
myself and then not catch it,and then like what I'll have
done or you're like, I don'tknow.

SPEAKER_03 (25:53):
I'll have done it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Um I don't know.
I mean, it's I think that it'slike would only be a positive
exercise for your book and andfor your writing.

SPEAKER_02 (26:05):
If I'm able to go to that book uh club next week, as
I think uh is there room forjust like questions?

SPEAKER_01 (26:12):
Like so last time I went there, all we did was chat.
There was no well, I think thatum oh well there was uh somebody
leading the group and they theydid have some questions, but it
was very flea free-flowing kindof a conversational thing.
Okay, and then this next one isthe critiques, which they sent
us four different works offiction that were around 3,000

(26:38):
words each.
And so I think that if we're allreading it and all kind of
critiquing and commenting,that's gonna take like two
hours.
Yeah, right.
So, I mean, if there is time,definitely bring it up.
So, not every meeting is acritique meeting.
No, I'm interested.
So I don't know how often theydo it, but I hope they do it a
lot because I want to send minein for next time, although it's

(26:59):
very scary.
Yeah, a little scary.

SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
But I I mean, I the one thing that I learned in
class with uh the creativewriting class that I took was
that workshopping, whilenerve-wracking, it's so fun to
like see people's faces, youknow, and like and like get
their like real-time thoughts,you know.
I did I do like that, eventhough it's scary.

(27:23):
Okay, so anyway, back tocharacters.
Okay, so then we've talkedbefore, um, I don't think on the
podcast, but off the podcast,about non-binary neuro
neurodivergent characters, andum one of the characters in
Dinner for Eight is potentipotentially very much likely

(27:44):
neurodivergent, the the husband.
Um and uh in our conversationabout him, you were like, you
had said that right now a lot ofpublishers and editors like
they're looking for moreneurodivergent neurodivergent
characters, and um I imagineLGBTQ characters are like looked

(28:07):
for, so that's like not justwhite people there, you know,
like basically gender.
Um and I was wondering like howmuch has that played into your
choices of characters, and likedo you think about you know what
a publisher might want as you'rewriting versus like that's just

(28:29):
what comes to you because I haveyou know like quite a like I
obviously have thatneurodivergent guy that I just
brought up, and then althoughnow that I've been editing, he's
not as neurodivergent anymore, Igotta say.
Um, but then I have quite a fewLGBTQ characters in my book.

SPEAKER_00 (28:45):
Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 (28:46):
Yeah, but they didn't they came out without me
thinking about because I'venever even looked up what people
were looking for.
When you've created characters,d is that like something that's
in your head since you did knowthat, or is it something that
like how so all this stuff isactually like such a bummer?

SPEAKER_01 (29:06):
Um, but I th I initially I thought that Lonnie
was neurodivergent, um, but Inever say that because like one
of the themes that I I wanted tohave was how difficult it can be
to be undiagnosed, sure.
And how much a diagnosis can setyou free.

(29:27):
But my book is based in 2005,and back then, especially for
girls, she would not have beendiagnosed, she never would have
gotten diagnosed.
And so um it would just be it'sjust a story about a a woman who
never knows why she's havingthese um social difficulties.

(29:50):
Right, right.
But as I go back through thebook, I'm taking out if there's
anything that kind of umoutright indicates like uh a dog
whistle or something about herbeing neurodivergent.
Um I'm actually taking that out.
Okay, why?
Why?
Um because I don't think that Ijust don't think that I can do

(30:15):
it justice.
I don't think there's a reasonfor it.
And I don't think that I can doit justice.
I read a book, I don't want tosay who the author was, but um
it's an author that we love andeverything and she she was
talking about this mother andshe has this son and she's
saying the son wouldn't make eyecontact or the son um she was

(30:40):
just giving these low-hangingfruit or stereotypical
indicators of what autism is.
Sure.
And it just felt very rote likeit just felt flat to me.

SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
Like she was trying to create this character for
whatever people want or or likewhat a publisher might be
looking for or something.

SPEAKER_01 (31:02):
Yeah.
I just sort of felt like she wassaying she was describing this
child as having everything thatthe modern day person knows to
be an affect of an autisticperson, but autism is such a
spectrum.
Oh absolutely so it's like youwould almost want there to be it

(31:23):
to be less by the book or youknow like if it were like a real
child they wouldn't just be thisone thing right they would also
have things that would make youthink maybe they aren't or they
would have things that youdidn't expect to be a part of it
or they would you know whateverit is.
So it it it I didn't want tojust flatten neurodivergence

(31:44):
into what I know about it.
I just don't know enough aboutit I think.
Sure.
Um so that's why I decided totake that out another thing on
this is that so my maincharacter is not white.
She's half another race and Iwas told by an agent that I
couldn't write um a characterthe main character had to be

(32:08):
white.
Oh that I couldn't write acharacter I feel like you told
me this before yeah everybody Itell this to is like we should
do a whole episode about this.
We should but um yeah she saidthat my my secondary characters
had to be different races anddiverse but because I'm a white
writer I can't write any otherrace.

SPEAKER_02 (32:30):
Interesting yeah it's a bummer I would I would
love to hear I mean if peoplewere if people listen to this
and like share their feelingsabout that maybe that's
something we could like pose toReddit on our Reddit thing
because I'm so curious aboutthat.
I like I don't but I'm also awhite woman maybe I don't

(32:51):
fucking get it you know I almostwant to save this for the next
one.
Okay let's let's let's put a pinin there perfect let's go back
for one second to how manyauthors do you think are writing
just to fill what they think isbeing looked for like the fact
that there's information onthere oh publishers like okay so

(33:13):
actually no you go to apublisher's website and there's
like I'm or an editor whateverand they're looking for fantasy
they're looking for yourmanuscript wish list.
And then they're looking forLGBTQ characters.
So are they you wrote somethingand then if it doesn't fit that
you don't submit is how Iinterpret that.

(33:35):
But do you think there's a lotof authors out there and I'm not
talking about either of us butlike that are like okay well
this is what they're lookingfor.

SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
I'm gonna write a book that fits that how many
what do you think this is justlike a totally speculative what
do you think the percentages ofpeople who do that I heard one
author who she had written abook and then her agent said I
want a sister's book like we wedon't have a sister's book out
here that we're publishing inthe next year or two on the

(34:06):
docket so can you write asister's book and she goes okay
sure and it's like it'sinteresting because it's like
every year we need to have likethis like the market has room
for this like this many sistersbooks or this many whatever I I
don't know I don't know but shedid it she did she went ahead
and wrote a sister's book.
Right.
It was basically like a prompt.

SPEAKER_02 (34:25):
Right yeah I guess I would think of it as a prompt at
that point.

SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
Yeah I don't know how many people write to market
but what I hear is thatpublishing works so slow that if
you're like oh my gosheverybody's all about um sexy
werewolf like grab you by theankle I gotta write that and
then you write that and it takesyou four months to find an agent
and then it takes them twomonths to get an editor to pick

(34:48):
it up and then it takes a yearto put it out there and by then
the market has moved on to likeum slutty fairies.

SPEAKER_02 (34:54):
True totally yeah right so they say just don't
even bother okay I mean thatmakes sense that makes sense
yeah I'm just I I mean since I'mso new to this I feel like I'm
curious as to like you knowchicken or egg which one comes
first type of I I from what Ican see there's so much
saturation of people who writeversus people who get published.

(35:18):
So it's it's not like there'sit's definitely more of you go
to the publisher's website andsee if you fit their box rather
than the other way around.

SPEAKER_01 (35:27):
Yeah I think so I mean um uh one of the agent a
really famous agent Cece Lirasaid that she likes or she was
looking for um worlds whereeverything's the same except for
one thing's different.
Yeah we've talked about thisbefore yeah did we talk about
this on the pot or just I thinkwe did.

(35:48):
Because did I say that thingabout the the wetness and the
turquoise glitter thing?
Uh I don't remember that.
Oh I haven't even said that toyou at all I don't think so okay
so I saw Cece Lira was sayinglike it is pretty trendy like a
book where um everything in theworld is normal except for one

(36:08):
thing's different.
For example we mentioned sharkheart yes that's that is what we
talked about.
It's a normal day normal thingbut some people get this disease
where they transform into abeast a animal um but there's
ones that are like there's bookslike that that are even more
subtle like there's a book whereeverything's normal but this
woman can go into the basementof her job and there's a machine

(36:32):
that tells her what's gonnahappen the next day or how to
find love or just somesomething, right?
So that's what Cece Lira saidthat she was looking for and I
was like oh that's like I likethat too that's pretty cool and
I thought okay I want to write ashort story or a story where um
there's a woman who and likeeverything's normal but when she
gets wet in her vagina whenshe's horny yeah when she's

(36:58):
horny um it's like turquoise.
Oh I feel like we actually didtalk about this on this?
I don't know.
I can't imagine saying this onthe pod okay so her pussy
wetness is cyan and glittery andlike it gets on people and if it
gets on you something happens tothat part of you.

(37:19):
Oh wow like maybe it grows abunch of hair oh no bad magic
bad magic or it loses all itshair or it turns blue but then
that only whatever happens basedon that only happens for like a
short time or something.
Like I was thinking okay this iswait you created this?
Yeah okay wait I we haven'treally talked about this I

(37:41):
haven't really talked about thisbut that I think I might write
that you guys let me know if youwant to I think you should
definitely write it.
That's great.
Okay so then I'll share it onthe next story time.

SPEAKER_02 (37:51):
Oh my god yes please do that okay okay okay okay so
so yeah sometimes that happensand I'm doing it for the next
story time okay so Enneagram andcharacters I took one test that
I answered 200 whole questionsand then I clicked show me my

(38:16):
results and it was like pay$10and I was like absolutely not it
said it was free and I'm notdoing that.
So then I took another one and Idecided to like go into another
dimension and just do adifferent character.
Not a different no differentdimension.
I decided to do something that Iwasn't already doing.
Like I that that the 200questions were gone.

(38:37):
That person was over with in mymind new person.
And I did another one and I madesure it was free before I
clicked through it.

SPEAKER_01 (38:44):
So what I should say is Rachel when she's saying a
new person she wasn't takingthis test as herself.
Oh right yes so we had this umwe had this idea that we could
build characters by doingpersonality quizzes as our
character to kind of figure themout.
Sure right so Rachel is sayingthat she answered 200 questions
as one character what characterwas it that you were originally

(39:06):
as Carolyn.

SPEAKER_02 (39:06):
As Carolyn which was pretty much just me I I gotta
admit like I she's you yeah Imean she's not me because I had
my whole conversation with atherapist about this her and I
are not the same person but inthe grand scheme of things her
thought processes are verysimilar to mine.
So like I'm a similar person.

SPEAKER_01 (39:25):
At the end of the day like I knew I was gonna get
a type one like I knew that thatwas type one yeah but then when
you moved on to the next quizwho was the character that you
were doing in that case okay sothis is where it got kind of
funny.

SPEAKER_02 (39:38):
Okay hold on pause putting it pause Enneagram I
know we talked about it in thelast episode but it's a concept
of nine different personalitytypes each type has very
specifics about your intentionso it's not like oh you're a
Libra so you like things to beyou know even and because your

(40:01):
scales it's not like that.
This is based off of yourintentions as a human.
So like I'm a type one and myintentions and my core belief is
that things have to be fair.
Things have to be right and itmight not benefit me and it
might actually hurt me but ifit's the right or fair thing to

(40:21):
do I would rather fall on thatsword than for it to be wrong
and injust in the world.

SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
That's what you just did with the quiz you were like
you told me it was free.
I have$10.
I'm not giving it to you that'snot fair.

SPEAKER_02 (40:34):
Absolutely exactly perfect example Kale exactly um
and then there's other typeslike a type seven and their core
belief is that you know they arethey have to be fun and have a
lot of you know hands indifferent pots to be worth
something in the world.
And so they're often extremelyoutgoing they're quote unquote

(40:58):
um the most the the most soughtafter type um everyone wants to
be a seven and sevens often arethe life of the party will throw
a lot of parties want to planvacations like are often doing a
ton of stuff and make it lookreally fun but at the end of the

(41:18):
day their fear is that they'renot loved if they if they don't
have if they're not doing thosethings then they don't add value
to other people.
Is that your wing?
That is what I so okay sothere's the nine types and then
each type goes to another typewhen they're either feeling safe
or stressed.
So when ones are safe like whenthey feel like the work is done

(41:41):
the work is done the dishes areclean the you know the kids are
in bed then they can go to sevenand they're like okay let's have
a glass of wine like okay let'sgo like I could go out tonight
like okay they have to feel likethe work is done and it be feel
quote unquote safe to go toseven and then ones go to four
when they feel stressed andfours as you have self-diagnosed

(42:05):
yourself.

SPEAKER_01 (42:06):
I think I'm a four based on the test I took when I
was drunk.

SPEAKER_02 (42:09):
When fours are unhealthy they will be like why
aren't you paying attention tome?
I did all of this I I I don'tknow when ones are unhealthy
when ones are when ones areunhealthy they'll go to the most
unhealthy part of four and foursdo that.
They're like look at me look atme why the fuck aren't you
looking at me and then when theyget the attention you may you

(42:31):
might not relate to this whenthey do get the attention you're
like oh you're looking at me nowlike it's like wow you're
looking and I in my experiencewith type fours when they're
unhealthy they often do likelike they they want to be
extremely unique and then whenthey get the attention for being
unique it's very much like areyou giving me the attention I
want right now I'm not quitesure like um and ones can get

(42:55):
very much like I've why aren'tyou paying attention to how much
I've done why aren't you doinglike all of this um I don't feel
like I'm explaining it rightespecially by the way you're
looking at me.

SPEAKER_01 (43:07):
Well I I'm trying to relate it like to myself like
you know what I mean I'm tryingto think like if that's ever
I've ever felt that way but itsounds like this behaviors are
kind of unconscious a lot of thetime right if they don't realize
that you're doing these patternsover and over again right very
yeah very unconscious.

SPEAKER_02 (43:24):
So fours generally are extremely unique people like
they they really pridethemselves on kind of being off
the beaten path and like do yourelate to that?
Yeah yeah okay and um willreally lead with their heart and
lead with like this is how Ifeel and it's it's okay if it's

(43:48):
wrong but it's really gonna hurtme if you tell me it's wrong.
And well yeah that's true.
Yeah and so when ones are do goto that they become extremely
sensitive when in in generalones are very like can be very
cut and dry insensitive so it'sit's kind of like a weird bouncy
thing to have to do.
One's being a one socks I gotthat one socks okay I feel like

(44:13):
I'm going in a weird circle.

SPEAKER_01 (44:16):
Okay I'm gonna go through all the types real quick
okay cool should I do that sureokay so that the listener can
figure out what they maybe get aa hint of what they might be and
who their characters might be.

SPEAKER_02 (44:27):
Sure.
Yeah and the biggest thing toremember if you're listening to
this because I have to say itbecause I'm a one I can't type
you like I you have to typeyourself because it's about your
intentions um your coreintentions not what you want to
do but like at the end of theday that's why the that's why
the questionnaire was 200questions because it's giving
you questions that almostcontradict each other to see

(44:50):
where your actual patterns arebecause the intentions it has to
come from like a deep place oflike your heart or your gut like
it has to come from somewhere orthe avoidance of your heart or
your gut like the those reallycome into play.
Okay so type one as I mentionedthe the official name for it is

(45:11):
the reformer um you know like Isaid we really thrive in things
being by the book right or wrongis a is a real thing and are
usually hypercritical of eitherthemselves or others uh usually
both but usually one more thanthe other.
So like you have to think of itas a circle.

(45:32):
At the top of the circle at 12o'clock is nine so I maybe I
should have started it.
No, no I'm not gonna start withone number one.
So if you think of it as acircle one's at like one o'clock
and then next to it on one sidewould be nine and the other side
would be two and so each typecan have a wing so you would be

(45:53):
a one with a nine wing or a onewith a two wing.

SPEAKER_01 (45:56):
Whoa so you can't have a wing that's not on the
circle wing?

SPEAKER_02 (45:59):
No, because then those are your stress and safety
types if that you go tootherwise.
Oh wow so yeah so the but a onewith a nine wing is gonna be
wildly different than a one witha two wing.
And I'm a one with a two wingwhere we're very justice
focused, which calls back tothat number the type two person

(46:21):
that we described earlier.
If I'm giving a lot and I thinkthat I'm giving a lot and it's
not it doesn't feel reciprocal Iget so resentful and I get like
so so like up upset that I'vebeen giving this much and you're
not meeting me where I am andthat's really hard in marriage I

(46:43):
gotta say um yeah yeah but it'swhereas a type one with a nine
wing would be like they they'redoing what's right or wrong but
if it's better for the groupthey're a little bit more like
okay like I can concede likethey're a little bit easier to
concede.
Okay so that's ones in theirwings.

(47:05):
So then the two is the giver aswe've already talked about they
are usually extremely big heartthere's another thing that has
to be Enneagram is so in depthyou guys twos threes and fours
are heart types so they allreally lead with their heart.
The giver is very like a verybig heart.
They want to make sure thatpeople around them feel loved

(47:26):
people around them have whatthey need and they often give of
themselves that they don't evennecessarily have but then also
get really resentful if it's notgiven back to them in whatever
capacity they need it or wantit.
And then a two with a one wingwould obviously have more of a
justice base like if they'lllike be more resentful and feel

(47:46):
like they need justice about it.
Whereas a two with a three wingwould be like well I'm gonna
work even harder because threesare the achievers.
Achievers like threes will goabove and beyond always even if
they have to step on someone todo it.
They're like I will get to thetop I'm going to do the best

(48:07):
that I can the best thatanyone's ever seen they're often
like CEOs because they're likeI'm going to make whatever I'm
doing the best thing I can andthey're willing to step on
someone to make it happen.
They don't really care if it'sfair as long as it's getting the
goal.
Okay.
So um then the other wing for athree would be the four.

(48:32):
So when a three has a four wingthey're gonna be more like
individualistic about howthey're approaching it.
They're they want to be theywant to get to the top but they
might be getting to the top in amore unique way.
Like they want to get more to bethe first to do something or do
it exactly yeah yeah okay sothen the four is called the

(48:52):
individualist and uh very againheart feeling um but they often
deny the heart feeling like theydon't want it to be about their
heart they want it to be aboutwhat's like right to correct me
if I'm wrong because this wouldhow you relate they they want
their heart to be on theirsleeve but they also don't want
you to see that their heart's ontheir sleeve because that would

(49:14):
make them very vulnerable.
Do you relate to that?
I'm not sure okay I don't knowum I often get along really well
with fours as you can tell inthis podcast.
And okay so then next is thefive the five is the
investigator.
So a four with a five wing wouldbe would become much more drawn

(49:36):
uh withdrawn when they feel hurtor like because fives are
extremely withdrawn.
They want to know all abouteverything.
They're they're called theinvestigators um they need to be
the expert in everything it alot of people on the autism
spectrum are fives because theyreally um need to know as much

(49:57):
as they can to feel safe about aspecific subject and then
they'll really find an identityor a a solid like working point
within themselves in thisidentity.
So like um you know the one ofthe kids I used to work with
when I nannie'd he was on thespectrum and he was really into
trains and like everything abouthim in his how he presented

(50:17):
himself was train focused.
And um he was very withdrawn andunless you were able to talk to
him about trains he reallydidn't care to talk to you.
And um obviously he was a childyou can't you can never give a
child an Enneagram type but um Iimagine he would be more of a
five than any of these otherones I would never give him a

(50:41):
type but I have for years.
He was in your class oh no Inannie I nanied for yeah he I
actually never nannied for hisfamily I babysat for him but he
was so sweet that kid oh umtrain boy talked about trains a
lot that year.
Well I did and he also lovedflight patterns and uh obviously

(51:03):
nothing to do with being a fiveI don't think but he uh one time
it was like storming really badwhen I was babysitting for him
and the planes were flying overthe house like really we live
near the airport and um theplanes were like really loud and
I was like it feels like aplane's gonna crash into this
house right now like and I saidthat he was like oh no well the
flight patterns change when it'sreally windy because if it's

(51:24):
more than a 70 mile an hour windthen the planes can't go from
the west and well and he hadlike the full answer for why the
planes are closer and flyingover the house and I was like
that is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (51:36):
Wow wow what a cool kid yeah okay so I have no idea
what my wing is I don't feellike I'm I don't feel like I'm
knowledgeable enough about anyone subject to be that person
but now hold on I'm gonna I'mgonna ask don't you think that

(51:56):
your your not obsession thatfeels too strong but like your
need to write your book and likeyour your um the sausage being
made you know like you got sointo writing the book correctly
from these old dudes'perspective yeah that that's
pretty five yeah and then I wasjust thinking about my old

(52:20):
podcast um Better for the Boywhere every episode I would
learn all about like a specificsubject and be I would really go
deep dive into it.
Very five.
And then I would do a wholeepisode that I would write and I
would just talk for 40 minuteson like the subject.
Yeah.
So that's really good to feellike an expert but in my heart I

(52:43):
always know that I'm an imposterthat I'm not actually an expert
in anything and I'm reallystupid kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 (52:49):
You also though have a lot of threeness in like you
know like we started thispodcast and you're like this is
where I want it to go and notsaying that you're trying to
step on anyone to get there butthe you're also like I want this
to succeed and like you're verysuccess you know oriented like
you we you aren't doing this forno reason.
You want it to be something andthat's very three.

(53:11):
You know it don't you not thatit has to be the top podcast you
never even you know never saidthat but like yeah whatever
success looks like for me whichwould be to have some people
some writers listening to thepodcast and feeling like they're
part of like a writing communitywith yeah yeah um okay so uh you
should work on figuring out whatyour wing is I would love to

(53:33):
know you would love to know Iwould oh my gosh you want to
know my character in depth I dookay so fives are the
investigator their other wing isthe six six are their loyalists
so six are often like theskeptics when I learned the
Enneagram I was introduced tothe sixes called the skeptics um

(53:53):
and they are often like doomsdayprepper type mindset like they
need to know all of the thingsthat can happen in order to make
sure they have a plan for itafterwards.
So six and ones can often bemistaken for each other if you
don't know what you're talkingabout because ones also be need
very plans.

(54:14):
Um but sixes are doing it out ofthis fear that they're not that
if they're not prepared they'renot worth it in the world.
That's like their big fear theythey don't won't don't bring
anything to the table if they'renot prepared in some way
whatever however that looks forthem.
Okay.
And then their other wing is theseven which is the you know

(54:36):
quote unquote best type umthey're the enthusiast and like
I said before very generallyvery outgoing very like life of
the party planner and one of mygood friends is a seven and she
will plan the fuck out of thebest vacation you've ever had.

(54:57):
I just did that hiking trip withher and she had you know every
spreadsheet on everything wewere gonna do all day long.
And she kept saying like it'sokay if we deviate from it like
and she legitimately meant likeshe's okay if we deviate from it
but there was no reason tobecause she planned the best
fucking trip ever.
Oh no to have a friend like yeahit's really amazing and she just
soothes my little one heartbecause that allows me to be in

(55:20):
seven for like so her and Ivacation like two peas in a pod
because she's done all the funwork and it allows me to be fun
because I don't have to thinkit's it's really great.
Okay.
So then their other and uh we'vealready talked about their fear
is their fear is if they're notthe life of the party if they're
not bringing all of theseoptions to the table that people
won't want them.
Then their other wing is theeight the challenger and eights

(55:44):
are often tougher cookies.
They're like literally toughercookies like often they're
pretty confrontational.
They're so now we're in the headtypes seven uh oh no I'm sorry
head types were five six seveneights are gut types eight nine
and ones are gut types so nowwe're in the gut types eights
will often lead with a point ofview where they're like a

(56:09):
bulldozer they don't really careif you agree with them or not.
They're like this is how I feeldeal with it.
And so if like my friend who Iwas just talking about if she
was a seven with an eight wingthat whole conversation of we
don't have to go do it if wedon't want to like that's okay
that wouldn't have come out ofan eight's mouth.
You know I've had friends whoare eights before and I it I

(56:34):
have a hard time with thembecause they often don't care
about the justice of thesituation.
They're like this is the way ithas to be I don't care about
like they're wrong this is theway I want it.
And it's you know it's sometimesthat's tough for a one.
Um and then their other wing isthe nine which is the peacemaker

(56:55):
which is also a gut type butvery different in the fact that
they will just kind of lie down.
And like not necessarily in abad way but not necessarily in a
good way.
Like they'll it really dependson the situation and um what
they think is needed.
So the when I learned theEnneagram my teacher I literally

(57:18):
took courses like an eight weekcourse on this guys.
Okay so my teacher she wouldcall this she would use this
analogy if a tank meets a swampwho will win and the nine being
the swamp a tank can't gothrough a swamp a swamp the
swamp wins and the nine canbecome a swamp when they're
really unhealthy and they'relike I don't they'll they'll

(57:40):
often use like I don't carewhatever.
Yeah and to the point that itcan be really infuriating for
any any other type who hasfeelings about it.
You know especially someonewho's really outgoing or really
like yeah they'll go along forthe ride often but it's really
hard to gauge if a nine'sactually enjoying themselves or
if they're just being appeasing.

SPEAKER_03 (58:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:02):
Um but often they're actually legitimately okay with
going with the flow.

SPEAKER_03 (58:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:08):
So it really depends on the person obviously and
obvious and likely the scenariobut like my ex was a nine I'm
pretty sure your swampy old ex.
Yeah I would I would if I waswith him when I did all this
Enneagram coursework so he hadhe he had said he was a nine but
I also don't know if how much hewas paying attention to what I

(58:29):
was actually talking about.
Hard to say um and uh he if Icould you know fully you know
take my own liberties on thiswas a nine with an eight wing
he'd he never got into it enoughto tell me that but because he
was so like this is my way andnow I'm the fucking swamp like

(58:50):
you do whatever the fuck you'regonna do I'm fine with it.
Like stubbornly swamping astubborn swamp like he sounds
horrible.

SPEAKER_01 (58:59):
He was horrible he sounds like that big blob guy
that has Princess Leia chainedup oh yeah job of the hut yeah
he sounds like job of the hut hewas w yeah maybe okay so um but
and there can be great and Ithink that if you were to ask
him what his intentions werewhile we were dating it would be

(59:22):
to keep the peace.

SPEAKER_02 (59:23):
He didn't want to upset anybody so he just did
nothing and you know we had abig issue with like him cheating
on me and like all this stuffand at one point I ended up
having like a lot of compassionfor him because I was like you
literally are just caughtbetween two women and would
rather lay down and let themfind it out than make a choice

(59:46):
because that's so type nine.
Like they just don't want tomake a choice.
Oh my god and like it wasn'tthat like I legitimately felt
like he didn't know what to doand I'm so proud of myself for
having left that situation.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:00):
But I I do think that there's some people who are
really just like straight upevil and like or like cruel with
their intentions.
And I don't think he wasactually cruel with his
intentions about it.
I think he legitimately was justa swamp.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:16):
Yeah.
And the nine.
He was just so stuck in anunhealthy nine that he couldn't
process.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:21):
Right.
So it's like every type hastheir healthy self and their
unhealthy self.
And like this is where you canget shitty and this is where you
can be great.
Sure.
That would be really cool.
Oh my gosh.
I just had a mind-blowingrevelation.
If so, you know how a characterhas to change throughout the
story?
Maybe at the beginning of thestory, they're the unhealthy

(01:00:42):
version of their Enneagram, andthen by the end, they're their
healthy version.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:48):
So I love that.
And I think that that's so Samin Dinner for Eight, that is
definitely what happens withher.
Yay! She is at the beginningvery stuck in her ways.
And she is because she'sextremely unhealthy.
Like she is like broken, she hasbeen broken, she's rebuilt

(01:01:09):
herself up with like a shell,and she's not willing to break
out of the shell because she'sso scared of what she's done or
what has happened.
And then by the end of uh aport, like by I'm I don't want
to give away her full whathappens with her.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:26):
At some point in the story.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:27):
Yeah, she's like, I gotta just like break down some
fucking walls.
And like she has like a full, Ithink I've mentioned in the
podcast another episode thatlike in she's like in the shower
at one point and she's likewatching this like shell rinse
away.
And like, so if you're thehealthiest of of yourself in the
Enneagram, you're actually allthe types.

(01:01:48):
So like that's the the biggestpart of Enneagram is to be in
your type and to relatewholeheartedly to a type is
extremely unhealthy.
You want you want to be in thisspectrum.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:02):
You want to be in the middle of it?

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:04):
You do like you, you can't there's no circle.
There's no way to like undo yourtype, but you want to be more
like all of them than anythingelse.
Like you want you what if if itwas like a 60-40 or you know,
you can't, or a 50-50 even wouldbe a much healthier, like if
you're 50% a type one or a typefour, and then a 50% of the

(01:02:25):
other nine types mixed together.
Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:28):
Yeah, I had this thought the other day that when
you're young, you're veryspecific, and as you get older,
you become more general.
Sure.
It's like when you're a teenageror whatever, and you've got your
blue hair, and you've got yourshorts that you stomp around,
and you're this, and you're likeyour your identity, and you you

(01:02:51):
know, you're so well.
I guess I'm just describing howI was like you're so unique and
you're so um, but then as youget older, you become more
general, I think.
Like it's like you're justeveryone just grays out a little
bit.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:05):
Sure.
And like, and but then also Ithink that as you get older, at
least I I think and I see in myfriends that you become more
confident in who you are.
So the gray doesn't feel scary.
Whereas in when you're ateenager, gray feels scary
because you don't you don't wantto be you want to fit in in some

(01:03:26):
way, like you you want to have agroup, an in-group.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:30):
Yeah.
Or you want to figure out whoyou are, right?
Or yeah, where you fit, who youare.
Totally.
Um, and then it's almost like uhyour ego, if you're healthy,
should diffuse a little bit, andyou shouldn't be so concerned
with um like wisdom would be umhaving posit all these different

(01:03:53):
positive sure traits.
Yeah.
So okay, so back to But that'salso mind-boggling that the
Enneagram would be like, you'rethis with this wing, and
everything is super specific,and everything is CDD and so in
depth, but you actually want tojust say fuck it and not be any
of it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:10):
Sure.
Well, a lot of being a healthyperson in the Enneagram is being
accepting of other people, um,and like uh accepting of how
other things are done.
So that's actually why I learnedthe Enneagram.
I was managing, um, I wasworking at a bakery and I was
managing all of these employees.
And at the time I was only 20.

(01:04:32):
And uh I had over 20 employeesunder me, and my quite a few of
them was were like went to thethe above, the woman who owned
the bakery, and was like, Rachelis way too rigid.
Like she would walk, uh I wouldwalk in at, you know, three in
the morning.
The bakers had been there, youknow, doing the graveyard shift,

(01:04:54):
four in the morning, and twotrays of vanilla cupcakes were
too dark and we couldn't usethem.
So I would walk in, and before Isaid hi or anything, those would
catch my eye, and I'd be like,You guys need to rebake these
trays.
And then I would just keepwalking to go pick up my apron.
And I'm just I like likelegitimately, as I'm saying it
out loud, there's a voice in theback of my head that, like,

(01:05:15):
there's nothing wrong with that.
The cupcase needed to berebaked.
They needed to know as soon aspossible so they could get it
done.
I'm trying to help their morningso that they can be efficient.
Like in in my head, still I candefend it of like that's how I
would want to be treated.
I want my time to be efficient,I want my time to be worth it to
this person above me.

(01:05:35):
I don't want her to waste mytime.
That's how I want to be treated.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:39):
With niceties and this and that, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:41):
Yeah, I don't need fucking niceties.
Do I need to rebake thecupcakes?
Tell me as soon as possible.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:45):
And uh, majority of people don't want to be talked
to like that.
And I so I I called theEnneagram at first, my court
ordered therapy, because the theowner of the bakery was like, if
you you need to take this courseand learn how to talk to people
if you're gonna be the manager.
And she put me in thiseight-week course, and it fully

(01:06:08):
changed my life.
I still get stuck in my oneness,but I learned so much more
compassion for like Yeah, youjust you're like, This is
predictable because of yournature.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:19):
Like, I can see what your nature is, and I know why.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:23):
Yeah, what your intention is, and yeah, and it
also like I formed a lot ofcompassion for myself of like,
yeah, that's how I want to betalked to, and that's not
necessarily fun, you know, andlike, but uh also that doesn't
mean anyone else wants to betalked to this way.
It doesn't matter what theirtype is, yeah.
It also it's just is like oneslike that.

(01:06:45):
Can I guarantee you they're aone?
Okay, then don't talk to themlike that, you know?
Like um, so that's why I learnedit, and I feel very grateful for
having learned it.
And I do wonder both Sam andCarolyn are for sure ones.
That's the perspective that Iwrite from as a first person
narrative.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:03):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:03):
Um and knowing what we've just talked about, what do
you think of Lonnie as a if youcould type her?
So maybe I can tell you somethings about her.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:14):
Yeah, too.
Yeah.
So when she's unhealthy at thebeginning, she like doesn't
trust herself, and she doeswhatever her mother tells her.
Yeah.
And she's like socially anxiousand stuff like that, and she
gives people kind of whateverthey want of her, including like
her body.
And then when she's healthy,she's uh intuitive and and like

(01:07:40):
really pays attention to otherpeople, and so she's good at
reading people, um, does whatand still like kind of does
what's what they want, but justbetter at reading it.
She starts to gain her own umagency agency.
But maybe I should know moreabout her character, and maybe I

(01:08:01):
should say, well, if she ifthat's who she is, maybe she
does continue to follow orderslater, but maybe she just
chooses who to follow.
I I don't know.
Sure.
Now that I'm talking about her,I'm like, I don't fucking know
anything about her.
I mean, I I know that she, yeah,that's all I know.

(01:08:23):
She she's socially anxious, shedoesn't trust herself, she just
follows blindly whatever hermother wants from her.
She believes that she's likeeverything her mother's ever
taught her about herself, thatshe's stupid, all this stuff.
And then she starts to um becomelike a tarot reader and
understand that she she can seethings in people, she can talk

(01:08:45):
to people, she can understandwho they are.
She doesn't need to follow allher mother's rules.
Good for her.
Um, but I don't know whatEnneagram.
She really loves people, shewants to be loved, she really
wants people to love her, shewants to say the right thing um
to be loved, and she's scaredthat she, if she is herself,

(01:09:08):
that people won't love her.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:10):
Alright.
Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:13):
I don't know.
I think she needs an Enneagramtype to make her more believable
and real.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:18):
Yeah, I think you should do so.
Last time we talked about maybeyou taking a test as Lonnie, and
then you didn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:24):
I haven't done it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:25):
I I think you should.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:26):
I will.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:26):
Yeah, so I ended up taking the test as Kyle, which
is the antagonist in Dinner forEight.
And he's the monster in the inthe house, which um and I was
really, really surprised that hewas a type five at the end.
And I did not expect that atall.

(01:09:47):
Yeah, they're the investigator,and as I'm like thinking about
how I was answering thesequestions as him, I'm like,
okay, because he's likewithdrawn and doesn't want to be
at the party, which is veryfive, they're not super social
in general, um, and doesn'treally give a fuck what anyone's
thinking.

(01:10:07):
He knows what he knows and heknows why he's there, and he's
eyes on the prize, which is veryfive.
And uh I didn't expect that inmy head.
If I had typed him, you know,just willy-nilly, he'd be an
eight.
And I'm also What's the eightagain?
The eight is like the thechallenger who I think, you

(01:10:30):
know, who are just like thetank, you know, like they're
they're gonna get what theywant, whether or not they they
don't care what your feelingsare, their feelings are this,
and that's what's valid to them.
Um so that's fascinating, andnow I want to look up because I
can't think off the top of myhead.
I think fives go to eight intheir stress type.

(01:10:51):
And so maybe that's why I'veconnected them in my head, but I
wouldn't have put him as a five.
And it's fascinating to me.
So I haven't made a characterprofile for him like I've done
for Carolyn or Dana, and Iactually haven't done one for
Sam, um, which I think I mightdo today.
I think I'm gonna do thosebecause I yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:12):
I'm thinking like it would be super cool to so you
know how I'm writing the shortstory about the girl who has
cyan wetness?
I'm gonna have to think of wordsfor that because I don't want to
say pussy juice.
Oh you knew! You knew I don'twant that's so I can't say that.
I don't want that in a it's likeyear word vestibule.

(01:11:35):
Like I don't want to say that inthese stories.
Oh my god.
I'm gonna have to I thinkwetness is fine.
Oh, by the way, I was justlistening to Taylor Swift's new
album that dropped today.
So was I.
You were?
Yeah, I have only a couple songsin, but yes.
She says she has this amazingdiss track for Charlie XEX,
where she's like, Oh, you'rethinking about me so much,

(01:11:58):
that's actually really, actuallyromantic, that's really sweet of
you, because Charlie XEX put outa diss track about Taylor.
And um she's like, actually,it's really flattering.
Actually, it makes me wet.
And I was like, Whoa, likeTaylor Swift just said wet.
Wow.
That's best.
I was like, girl, you wet.

(01:12:20):
Yeah, you got open thighs.
Yeah.
What's going on, Taylor?
But, anyways, it's a good album.
I how many times have Imentioned Taylor Swift on this
podcast now?
At least a handful.
Four, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:31):
Okay, so okay, so we both need to do character
development stuff for what we'regonna be writing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:37):
Yes, but wait, sorry, I went on the tangent,
but this is just one more thingto say.
It was like, what if you like asa prompt, writing this short
story with the cyan wetness?
Um, it's like I have mycharacter, I figure out who she
is on the Enneagram and herwing, and then I have her
antagonist, and then wheneverthey're talking to each other,

(01:12:58):
I'm thinking about well, whatwould this person want based on
their intention?
And what would this person wantbased on their intention?
Or they just those are thecharacters.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:05):
Like you have these like well, that's a great way to
create what we were talkingabout in our last craft episode
uh with the women, the littlewomen thing.
Like those intentions createsurprise because you their
intentions are different in themoment.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:20):
And like emotional dynamic range, right?
Yeah.
Because one of them might likewhat's going on based on their
thing, and then the other one,whatever.
Yeah, that that I think I'mgonna try that.
This is gonna be different.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:32):
It is, it is okay.
So actually, hold on before weget back to any of your for one
second.
I uh got a vestibule suggestion.
You did from who?
From my dad.
Hey Tay.
Uh he said the other word for itis a vomitory.
Even worse.

(01:13:52):
Vomitory.
Vomitory.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:54):
Gross.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:55):
I know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:56):
Is that where people went to vom in the old days?

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:58):
Well, I think it the train vomits out, the people,
right?
Oh my god.
That's so he literally wrotethat, and I said, ugh, that's
even worse.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:08):
Oh my gosh, it is.
And you know what?
Vestibule is not bad.
I think you need to get overthat.
God, fine.
I just hate the word vestibule.
Okay.
So I think you're gonna end upusing it like once.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:22):
Oh, yes, I mean it is once.
Oh my god.
Uh, but I don't know.
I just can't see this characterknowing the word vestibule.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:35):
I just I can't see them knowing the word vestibule.
Why don't they just call it acompartment?
Or entrance.
The train entrance.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:43):
So that's what it is called right now.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:44):
But then you kind of think of the the front of the
not the middle.
Right.
The center entrance.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:50):
Uh well, I could just say like when they came
through the door.
They were standing in that area.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:55):
When they came through the door and then just
that's just move on.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:00):
Uh okay, so Enneagram and character types, I
think is a fun thing to I thinkis a fun way to look at
characters.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:08):
Do you think that you would ever take a test as a
character again?
Or do you just know the test andthe the types so well that you
could just kind of choose?

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:18):
I I would have said that.
I would have said that before.
But now with Kyle's result,like, oh I'm like, maybe not.
Maybe I would do it again andlike be surprised by it.
I don't know if I need to do itwith any of the other characters
necessarily.
Like maybe just the pro and thethe protagonist and the
antagonist.
Um, you know, the the two reallythe ones that you're following,

(01:15:41):
you know, the ones you'retracking the most as far as like
how the plot has to unfold.
Um what do you do you think youweren't gonna do it?

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:48):
I yeah, I'm definitely gonna do it for
Lonnie.
Yeah, because I need to figureher out more.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:55):
What's your status on your dystopian?
Your dystopia have you you putit on the back burner?

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:01):
Yeah, it's on the shelf.
Um, yeah.
I I don't know if I was justtrying something.
Um, I don't know if it's reallyme.
I think I'm gonna just reallyfocus on getting Pillow Forts
down in like good shape andsending it out.
And then if nobody bites, I'mgoing to self-publish that as I

(01:16:23):
think a cereal.
Sure.
And I think I might produce likeaudio to go with the cereal,
like an audiobook kind of thing.
Maybe try to get that picked upon like Audible or something,
sure.
But I I would like to have ittraditionally published if
possible, so I'm gonna get it inreally good shape and then send
it to some agents because I onlyever sent it to like yeah, less

(01:16:44):
than a dozen agents on the firstround, and I know it takes a lot
more than that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:49):
So so when I was writing Dinner for Eight the
first draft, the song by DidoWhite Flag, do you know that
song?
Um, that was like I literallywas like playing it on repeat
because I feel very inspired bythat song while writing the
book.
And I was like, okay, but I needlike a dark version of that

(01:17:09):
song, like a man singing it andlike make it a little creepy.
And then could you like I waslike, could you submit that with
a draft?
And like, like I want you tolisten to this song, and then I
want you to read the first fivepages or whatever.
And like I wonder if they woulddo that, and I wonder if that
would be a thing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:30):
I like I don't I don't know.
I've seen uh agents say that youcan send some agents saying that
you can send your you know firstfive pages, your synopsis, a
little bit about you, and thensome say, and you can also send
me your mood board if you haveone because a lot of like blue

(01:17:51):
sky kind of people or book talkkind of people they create these
visual mood boards for theirwork.
Oh my god, I want to make a moodboard.
Do you have a mood board?
I do not know, no, I do not.
But that would be like a goodpractice.
It would.
I used to I used to just thinkthat I was gonna get finished

(01:18:11):
this book and send it out andI'd be like done.
But it's like now I'm stillwork, I don't know.
I can't just be working on itforever, dude.
I gotta.
Yeah, it's true.
It does need more, and I'mwilling to give it more because
I do actually really like it.
I think it's good, but um Ithink maybe a mood board for the
next one to set the mood for thenext one.

(01:18:32):
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
But we've done a lot to do.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:35):
We have, we've been talking for a long time.
Thank you for listening.
Yeah, thank you.
Well, oh yeah, so I'm sayingthank you to you.
Oh, you're welcome for uhindulging my Enneagram
weirdness.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:47):
No, I love it.
That obsession is very umvaluable to me to have an
Enneagram expert right here.
And I learned a lot, and now Iwant to know what my wing is.
I want to understand myself andI want to understand my
character.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:00):
Well, the best way to find your wing is to read
about read like a lot about athree and a lot about a five,
and then see which one lines upwith you.
Like more so than the test.
Exactly.
Because a test isn't gonna beable to tell you your wings very
accurately.
Uh that's the best way to do it.
Like, I I can relate real hardto twos feeling injustice when

(01:19:23):
somebody's not like giving themback when they've given a lot.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:27):
Whereas I don't resonate with a nine, just being
like, okay, I'll go with theflow.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:32):
Yeah, I don't see that for you at all.
At all.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:36):
I mean, every once in a while I'm like, yeah, I
could do whatever, but that'swhen I'm in a type seven.
Like that's when I've alreadythe work is done.
Everything was already correct.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:45):
Okay.
Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you.
Um, we're on a two-week schedulenow, a bi-weekly thing.
Um, so we'll see you again in acouple weeks.
And you have plenty of time towork on some stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:00):
Can't wait to read them.
So check us out atwriteyourheartoutpod.com.
If you're not already followingus on Instagram, go find us on
Instagram, writeyourheart pod.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:10):
And it's so nice when you give us five stars or a
review uh wherever you find yourpodcast.
That's like the nicest thing youcan do for us.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:16):
And find us on Reddit and talk to us.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:18):
Yeah, we're starting our Reddit group.
Find us on Reddit, that'shilarious.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:21):
Yeah.
Okay.