June 18, 2025 • 46 mins
Louis CK & Mr. Beast are authors now? Posers...
Episode 3 – Thoughts on ACOTAR, Sex Scenes, Ghost Stories, and Cancelled Comedians: Writing What Scares You
In this spicy episode of Write Your Heart Out, Kayla and Rachel tackle everything from Louis C.K.’s surprise debut novel to the challenges of writing authentic (and not cringe) sex scenes. Rachel shares a scene from a ghost story based on true events—and the surprising workshop feedback that made her question if her character even likes men. Kayla & Rachel read A Court of Thorns and Roses for the first time and question the logistics of claws, bunny masks, and fairy sex.
They also dive into questions every emerging writer faces: Should you write to market? Is it okay to get help from ChatGPT? Can you write while medicated? And what happens when someone from school reads your sexy, slightly deranged short story?
Featuring: thriller plot twists, romantic fantasy debates, self-doubt, feminist murder spirals, and a heartfelt reminder to write what matters to you.
Homework: Finish A Court of Thorns and Roses, bring your favorite first paragraphs, and maybe—finally—write that sex scene.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Hey, this is Write Your Heart Out, the podcast.
I'm Kayla Ogden.
And I'm Rachel Sear.
And this podcast is aboutwriting.
We just talk about our writinglives and things that we've read
and things that we're working onand just have a good chat.
Yep.
So on the last episode, Racheland I challenged ourselves to do
(00:25):
something.
I said I was going to write myfirst short story and Rachel was
going to write a sex scene,which she has never done before.
But I just wanted to tell Rachelto start that in book publishing
world, Louis C.K.
(00:45):
announced that he wrote novellike a fiction book what okay
yeah yeah so I'm still on hisnewsletter and it's it's called
Ingram okay does it have alittle synopsis I feel like his
(01:10):
synopsis was written by ChatGPT.
Maybe.
It says, A suspenseful, oftenharrowing, yet hopeful odyssey
through rural America follows ayoung drifter's coming of age in
an indifferent world in thisdebut novel by comedian Louis
C.K.
Interesting.
And he's like, oh, it turns outthat I like write novels.
Well, he has to find somethingto do since he got cancelled.
(01:33):
Yeah.
He...
I mean, I have...
I like Louis C.K.
I'm not saying I don't like him.
However, he does need to findsomething else to do if he wants
to continue to make money.
Yeah.
Yeah, because he used to havethose humongous specials
where...
Like he did Madison SquareGarden, I believe.
(01:53):
And I think that he produced atsome point he began producing
those shows himself, which, youknow, he's like, actually, I
know how to hire a film crew.
I know how to rent a space.
I know how to market my show.
I've been doing this forever.
And so that.
I mean money wise that's hugelike he was making so much money
(02:15):
before his downfall totally umso I was a fan of Louis CK when
he did his show Louis and then Iwatched all of his specials and
I really liked him me too andthen um during probably the
height of the me too was it yeahno that was right smack in the
me too thing yeah yeah he umapparently it was pretty much
(02:40):
known for a long time within youknow a certain section of the
comedy community that louis ckwas like a bit pervy And that he
had done this to these twofemale comedians, right?
And this is like old news, butbasically he invited these up
and coming female comedians upto his hotel room.
(03:00):
They were like full on wearingtheir winter jackets and stuff.
And they sat down on the bed andthey thought they were going to
hang out and they thought it wassweet because it's like, oh,
hell yeah, this is Louis C.K.
And then he asks them if he canmasturbate in front of them.
and they are like laughing likethey can't believe that this is
happening and they think he'sjoking i think they think he's
(03:23):
joking i would think he wasjoking i think i'd be like yeah
yeah go for it like joking yeahi wouldn't be serious right i
don't know how it would be soweird it would be so weird so so
so weird and because i wouldalso be like what are you gonna
do next but that's all he did hejust splooged on his pants or
whatever and then they like leftthey like ran out of there
(03:45):
cackling like what the fuck justhappen.
And then they told people whotold them to just stop talking
about it.
They're like, just stop talkingabout it.
Like Louie's like powerful,whatever.
Well, even like Sarah Silvermanwas one of the people he's like,
she, he does that.
Like, don't worry about it.
Right?
Do you remember that?
So what I remember is, like,later on, I remember her coming
(04:07):
out and doing this apology andbeing like, sometimes our
friends do bad things andda-da-da.
But then later on, she said,yeah, Louis did that to me, too.
Oh.
Okay, I missed that part.
And she said, but at the time,it was like I was more powerful
than him.
So I was just sort of like, oh,fucking whatever.
Fine.
(04:28):
You're disgusting.
Like...
And she just let him do it, andshe didn't really think it was a
big deal, but she said that shecould understand why these other
women found it, like, abhorrent,and that they shouldn't have
been silenced, and he shouldhave been held accountable.
Sure.
I'm like, wow, you are SarahSilverman, and your friend
(04:53):
just...
what asks you to masturbate infront of you and he wants you to
basically like humiliate himlike that's this thing I mean
yeah and then we can cut allthis if you want cuz it's not
really relevant but yeah andthen he gets up once so after
that all came out he did comeout with another special a few
years later after saying that hewas gonna be quiet for a while
(05:15):
and just listen and And he goes,you know what's super weird?
You know, when he gets back onstage, he's like, you know
what's super weird?
Everybody knows what, like, mything is now.
That is weird.
He's like, we all have a thing.
You know, we all have someweird, creepy thing that we like
that, like, gets us off.
And now everybody knows whatmine is.
And, like, what his is ismasturbating while women laugh
(05:37):
at him.
Which is now all of us.
We're all laughing at him now.
So, like, is this, like, theultimate thing?
Is he so hardy now?
Just, like, he doesn't even haveto try.
He's just, like, everyone hatesme.
I'm going to do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like, dude, exactly.
Because then I started thinkingabout his old comedy specials
where I was like, oh, I rememberhim telling this story about
(05:58):
he's going into the, he findsthis warehouse and there's this,
um, sex worker there and he'sstepping over like, like people
like drug abusers and I don'tknow he's like he's talking
about whipping out his dick andhis disgusting dick and he's
doing this like he's doing thisshow in front of an audience of
people who are laughing at himand he's pretending to jerk off
(06:20):
to like tell this joke right andI'm like he's molesting all of
us he's molesting all of usright now he likes this on a sex
level this isn't just him doinga special he's like he probably
goes home and he's like youknow, 40,000 people laughed at
me pretending to masturbatetoday.
(06:41):
This is the best.
Yeah.
He's like, this is so hot.
So like, so he's just likewriting in his own sex.
I mean, I think that that'sactually ties in perfectly.
He's just writing in his ownfantasy.
So like with this crap, um, whatdid we just read?
The, um, court of thorns androses.
Yes.
Yes.
(07:02):
Um, where we're reading, we'rein process.
I am chapter 20, but I haven'tgotten to any sex yet.
Look where I am.
32?
Have you gotten to sex?
Have they done it yet?
Do you want to know?
Of course I want to know.
20 just finally bitter.
Like in like in a sexy way, notlike a blood vampire way.
(07:24):
And she grinded her hips.
Oh, yeah.
There was some grinding.
Yeah.
But that was it.
And I was like, this is a goodlittle tease.
But yeah, that's fine.
So they're fucking now.
Look at your face.
She's making a face, you guys.
They do have sex.
Okay.
And it's good.
Okay.
(07:45):
So that's why you got to chapter32.
The bite happened and you'relike, I gotta keep going.
Well, I literally, okay.
Yeah.
I mean, this is a very engagingbook.
A Court of Thorns and Roses bySarah J.
Maas.
And we decided to read itbecause, um, Rachel was just
(08:06):
thinking about, you know, spiceand writing sex scenes because
of something that you submittedin your class.
Do you want to tell me aboutthat?
Sure.
So, so, oh, excuse me.
So, uh, in class, It wasn't asex scene.
It's not a sex scene.
It is a scene in which there arepeople making out at a doorway.
(08:30):
And it's cut off on purpose.
And I didn't think of it as aparticularly sexy scene.
You wrote this in a story.
I wrote this in a story.
It's in a ghost story.
And I can read the little blurbin which this happens.
And it's like two19-year-olds...
(08:51):
Making out in a doorway, theywalk in, and then, like, this
ghost thing happens, so it getscut off.
Do you want to read it?
Sure, I can.
Yeah, and then I'll go on.
And then I'll give you thereaction of one of my classmates
that was, it, like, took meback.
Not took me back.
It made me, like, took me aback,would be the right word.
(09:11):
Do you want to hold your coffee?
Sure, thank you.
And so I'll tell you his commentafter reading it, because I was
like, huh.
Was he just reading way tooin-depth?
Or...
What?
Okay.
Anyway.
So, um...
A little backstory.
These two girls live in anapartment together.
(09:32):
And they have...
but just between themselvesfeeling like there's ghosts in
their apartment.
They've talked about it withthemselves, but they've never
talked to the guys that they'redating about it.
This is based on a true story,right?
It is based on a true story.
Is it pretty much this truth oris, are there embellishments
that you, there's a little bitof embellishment, but yeah.
(09:55):
Um, but it's, it's based ontruth.
It happened with me and my oldroommate.
Okay.
Um, and so at this point, Emilyand Rachel, me and my roommate,
uh, have had dinner with ourguys that we're dating and, uh,
are going to head back to ourapartment.
(10:17):
Okay.
So, uh, Dane is the guy that I'mdating in this.
And okay, here we go.
We're going to start with Danepats my butt and opens...
to opens the truck door for melet's go he'll figure it out
eventually he says quietly sochris won't hear i guess i
should have started after thatuh okay hold on okay do you want
(10:41):
to start again yes do you wantto do the preamble and stuff too
or just no i think i'll messthat up okay just start where
you're I hoist myself inside,and by the time I'm buckled,
he's already starting theengine.
Well, that was fast, I sayaccusingly, poking fun.
Not where it matters, he winks.
(11:01):
I give him a cheeky smile, andhe turns out of the strip mall
lot.
Within minutes, we're at our ownapartment.
We're at our apartment.
I lead him up the stairs, and wespend a few minutes kissing
against the door while I fumblethrough my purse, only
half-heartedly looking for mykeys.
Okay, okay, pause.
I turn and push my butt into himto get him to back away.
(11:23):
He pulls my waist closer,standing behind me, kissing
under my jawline.
I start looking more urgentlyfor my keys, eager to take it
inside.
I feel the key and hastily openthe door, pulling him to me.
Immediately, he drops his handsfrom my waist and positions
himself next to me.
I wasn't prepared for such anabrupt end to our kissing and
feel caught off guard.
(11:43):
Holy shit, Dane says deadpan.
What?
I look up at him and then lookaround the room.
A family died here.
He says this as a matter offact, and I take a step forward
so that I can turn to look athim.
How does Jane know?
Okay, so I've heard the actualghost story before, so I kind of
know about this, but damn.
(12:06):
Should we...
Okay.
Should we be able to tell thelisteners where they can read
this?
Or do you want to submit it?
Because sometimes people won'tpublish it if you've even put it
on a message board or a blog oranything.
Do you want us to wait?
I still need to edit it somemore.
Clearly, I mean, I was fumblingwith it because it's badly
written.
It's a draft.
(12:29):
It's rough, yeah.
So once I get it edited up alittle bit, I think that I'll
probably submit it and thenfigure out where...
Or we could make a little blogthing for our writing and just
have a few things up there.
What do you think?
I think that we'll see.
I think for starters, we'll justsay when Rachel's ghost story is
(12:53):
published, we'll share the link.
And then, you know, We'll justsee how it goes, like, down the
line.
Okay, I mean, I do think we'redancing on this little line of
we both want to be writers.
So if we're just giving away abunch of stuff, then it's a
little...
Yeah.
I guess what I'm thinking, okay,well, this is crazy, but there's
(13:16):
a lot of literary journals oranthologies that can happen or
newsletters or subsects or thatkind of thing.
So in the future, if we want toput something like that
together, maybe we'll be able tojust...
have it have our work likehosted somewhere and then that's
a good place for it to bevisible but right now I think
we're just like trying to getsome publishing under our belts
(13:39):
um great so would you read umIngram by Louis CK I bet it's
good but would you read it Iwould read it sure I'll give it
a shot yeah yeah it's not that Iwant to read I don't know I
think that it will be good I'mjust kind of pissed off that he
(14:00):
can do whatever he wants andit's not that I'm like entirely
like oh this man should never beable to be creative again or you
know try like I think thatthat's fine but I guess I think
it's because it's coupled withthis other publishing deal that
just happened with Mr.
Beast oh we didn't finish thatconversation fully so Mr.
(14:23):
Beast is a 2020 He's 27 yearsold.
He's a billionaire.
Yeah, he's he's actually likeamazing.
he's not like all tooaltogether, like altruistic.
And he definitely has like amischievous little like pixie
side to him.
Um, but anyways, he's like, Ooh,I'm a writer now.
(14:46):
And he teamed up with, um, JamesPatterson, James Pat, James
fucking Patterson.
Interesting.
And he's like, Oh, I'm going tohave a book now.
And so wait, is James Pattersonghostwriting it for him and not
in a ghosty way?
Like how are they teamed up onthis?
I think James Patterson puts hisname on a bunch of stuff so that
(15:10):
it'll sell.
I don't know how involvedbecause it's like you'll see a
bunch of.
books that have like, like thissays Michael Crichton, James
Patterson.
He's the guy who wrote JurassicPark.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
So this one's James Pattersonand David Ellis.
So I guess it would beinteresting to know, like, how
(15:32):
does he work with other authors?
Like, what does he put his nameon?
I'm like having a hard timeimagining Mr.
Beast and James Patterson, likein a room with like coffee and
like writing, like, Yeah.
Like, hammering in there.
Especially because JamesPatterson's, like, 70?
Gotta be, right?
Yeah.
I mean, with Mr.
Beast, I'm like, he...
(15:52):
I feel like he's just gonna,like, get ChatGPT to write it or
something.
Totally.
But, like, what in the world ishe even gonna write?
Like, it's weird.
Like, with Louis C.K., thisthing that he came out with,
this, like, coming-of-age, like,gritty American drama,
suspenseful thing that he'sdoing, it's like, okay...
(16:13):
It's not really in...
with anything else that he'sdone.
And it's like, is Mr.
Beast going to do that?
But either way, both of theseguys are millionaires and they
can just get book deals.
Yeah.
And it is a little bitupsetting.
Just a little bit annoying.
Yeah.
So I guess I'm just a little bitannoyed with it.
And I'm like, there are so manybooks out there.
(16:35):
Like, I don't think I'm going tobuy Louis C.K.''s book or Mr.
Beast's book.
I think that if our book grouppicked Louis C.K.''s book, I'd
happily read it.
If we wanted to read ittogether.
together and happily read it Iwould not on my own volition go
buy Louis CK's book yeah I cansay that for sure yeah yeah um
but if someone wanted to read itand talk about it I that's my
(16:56):
favorite thing so yeah you'relike why not yeah okay cool so
the ghost story okay yeah yeahwith the spice okay let's keep
going with that people areprobably like oh my god Kayla
shut the fuck up and let hertell us well you know they're
gonna have to get to know thefact that you have ADHD it's
gonna be a And also this islike, we like tease it.
(17:19):
We're like, everybody's like, ohmy gosh, just wondering.
They're just like listening andlistening and waiting.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
So that story, um, I can go intothe ghost story further if we
want.
Um, but I read that in class asmy, uh, not that, not that
specific scene.
Actually, even I wrote it, Iread a different scene from the
(17:40):
same story in class as part ofmy workshop, right?
Where we sit in a circle,everyone, or Not everyone.
A few people read and everyonegives feedback.
So this guy in my class, Jack,had...
read the full story which wasyou know like a 14 page story um
(18:02):
and came up to me after classand was like you know i'm just
is your is that character is sheeven into dudes like i feel like
that scene was just so drab likeshe didn't seem like she was
even into it and i was like huhLike, what?
I don't think that that's aparticularly not sexy little
(18:24):
makeout scene, but it's not,not, like, I don't think it's
super, like, I don't think I wastrying to get your motor running
with that one either.
They were just making out of thedoor for a minute.
So, I am, um, I haven't writtena sex scene still.
I know that that was myhomework, but I definitely have
(18:45):
a little mental block about it.
Um, Maybe I'm just, like,turning into a prude in my old
age.
I'm not actually that old, justso you guys know.
But, um, what...
I don't know how to get going.
And that takes us back to theCourt of Thorns and Roses and
(19:06):
maybe even Louis C.K.
Like, are you writing your ownfantasy?
Or are you writing somethingthat you're repulsed by?
Like, when someone writes a sexscene, I think that that's my
hang-up.
It's like, is it...
am I going to be Louis CKsharing my dirty, you know, or
(19:27):
what is it?
You've written a sex scene.
So like, how does this work?
Well, I think it worksdifferently for everybody.
And I think the sex scene reallyneeds to like serve the story.
Well, yes.
Well, like it's, I, one thingthat I've heard about, And I
don't know because I literallyhaven't even finished the first
(19:49):
book from The Accord of Thornsand Roses.
But what I've heard about thisis that there's, you know, a
bunch of books in this seriesand that the first two are
really good.
And then it seems like this isjust what I've heard.
It seems like the author istrying to like in the next
books, just give the people whatthey want.
(20:10):
So it becomes formulaic.
Sex.
Oh, just sex.
Oh, it's just sex at that point.
Well, people are like, oh, itturns into a bit of a soap
opera.
And some people are like, itjust feels like she's just
churning out this stuff.
And I think there's a lot ofhorny young people who like the
(20:31):
sex scenes in these romantic-ybooks.
And she just kind of piled it onin the other ones.
She's like, oh, people lovethis.
Right.
Literally, I don't know what thefuck I'm talking about.
I just heard this from a fewpeople.
For me, sometimes I don't evenreally like...
(20:52):
I don't even really like readingsex scenes per se, especially if
they're really romantic.
I find that pretty cringe,although the one in A Court of
Thorns and Roses was...
very hot and sexual um i have tosay and i think partly it was
because she um dragged it out solong yeah like it's like will
(21:16):
they or won't they for literallylike 25 chapters and you keep on
thinking that this woman you'relike just have sex with the hot
fairy like just it's not likeyou weren't banging Isaac in the
barn back in, like, poor town.
Now you're in, like, hot placewith, like, this guy.
Yeah, you're in a manor, forGod's sake.
(21:36):
Yeah, you're all clean.
You ate some food.
You've got hips now.
You've got curves.
Like, put up to work.
So I think that that, so, like,the sex in that book was, like,
a payoff.
And it was, like, its own storyarc.
And it was really good for me.
Something that I just findmyself doing is I do write sex
(22:01):
scenes, but which is weirdbecause I don't particularly
like reading them.
I think that I am talking abouta lot about experiences that I
had when I was like coming ofage.
Sure.
And, um, the, um, just all thecomplicated feelings like for
young people, young womensurrounding like sex and like
(22:23):
how their approach for sex, um,how there's like desire and
there's, they have like goodsex, but there's also like, they
get into a lot of like scary,sketchy situations with guys
when you're like young andyou're sort of like a free
spirit or you're just, you know,you're just out there.
Or there's a lot of creeps likeLouis CK and you're like okay
(22:47):
and so you don't leave the roomyeah and then it goes beyond
creepy masturbation and turnsinto something else and you're
like well I already said yes andthen it turns into a whole thing
yes yes that happens a lot itdoes it happens a lot um I
remember like I've had a lot ofreally fucked up experiences
when I was younger so I thinkthat I explore that in my
(23:11):
writing like when I had betareaders reading my novel um
Adara was like, oh, is thisgoing to be a spicy book?
Because she read the firstcouple chapters and there's a
lot of like, the character'sthinking about sex like a lot.
And she's like, you could tellshe, Dara wanted me to, I think
that she wanted to read somelike hot and sexy romantic
(23:33):
thing.
And I knew that I had like threesex scenes in the book, but I'm
like, I don't know if I canreally tell you right now.
Like, this is spicy.
Like read this and get a bigwedding.
I'm like, it's, they'recomplicated sex scenes.
For me with reading, I thinkwhen there's a sex scene that I,
(23:54):
Like in movies, they call itlike pan to the window where
there's like a...
You know, it's like thecharacters are about to have sex
and then the camera pans to thewindow and there's like a
flapping
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
curtain.
Yeah, yeah, a
SPEAKER_00 (24:06):
little fade in, fade out.
Fade out and you just know thatthat happened.
I think when I'm reading, ifthere's a sex scene and it's
like two sentences or oneparagraph, I'll always remember
George Orwell's 1984 when theman, Winston, has sex with his
lover in the woods or somethingand it's like very, they're not
(24:28):
supposed posted they're notsupposed to even be together but
there's just like a couple ofit's just a couple of sentences
and it blew my mind when I readit as like a young teenager I
was like like the sentences arejust so um I wish that I had it
I wish I could just read thatyeah um but anyways I think I
like that when there's just likea few sentences it can be as
(24:52):
dirty and raunchy and crazy orpoetic or romantic or whatever
but just something hard-hitting
SPEAKER_01 (24:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
That's what I like to read.
So I think it's up to you if youwant to, do you want to share
like things?
Do you want to write down yourfantasies?
Not really.
I mean, a lot of books don'thave any sex in it at all.
Right.
Like right now we're reading theshark heart thing.
Yeah.
Right.
(25:20):
I'm only like a quarter of theway through, but so far I've
finished it.
Yeah.
Do they have anybody have sex?
No, I can't believe that whenthere's books for adults about
relationships and then theydon't have any sex.
There's, I mean, you'll get to apoint where they're talking
about not, not even the main twocharacters, but the, the woman's
(25:42):
mom um as a younger in heryounger self and um she eludes
to that they have a sort ofabusive relationship going on
like the the mom and the the thefather of oh what's her name
julie oh the what the the thewife yeah her parents have an
(26:04):
abusive relationship that's sosad and so she never really
knows her dad really um but theso i think there might have have
been a bit of a sex scene.
It's not really a sex scene.
You know, like it's a you knowthat they're having sex kind of
a deal.
Yeah.
The I mean, I feel like, I mean,I was telling you the other day,
(26:25):
and Carolyn, my main character,the protagonist in the novel
that I've been chipping away at,she needs to get fucked.
Like, she needs to get fucked.
She has to.
And it has to be, like, betterthan, I mean, the woman had been
married for years.
Her husband died.
She's, like, going through somemental stuff.
And she needs to get fucked.
(26:45):
Like, she really does.
Like, I know this for a fact.
Carolyn needs to get fucked.
So I'm gonna have to writesomething for her.
The girl, we gotta give the girlwhat she needs.
I think that then it should be areally...
good one yeah but I also don'tthink it needs to be I don't
want to draw out some bigromance I want her to get fucked
I don't want to be romantic wedon't need a three page oh
really you don't want it to beromantic you don't want it to be
(27:07):
like a love interest you justwant her to like have like a
meeting with someone and it'sjust sort of like um snowballs
into fucking yeah or maybe likea fuck buddy situation the one
thing I know about thischaracter that is one of the is
her landing place like I knowthat like her journey is going
to kind of change as she getswritten but the landing place is
(27:30):
that she is very happy not beingwith a man and like she wants to
like raise her kids with herfriends and like do a more
community based kind of livingsituation not like a not like a
weird commune way but like likeher one of her best friends is
divorced and another one is likein a relationship where they're
(27:52):
poly and like so they're they'reall very independent women and
that's how they want to stay andlike as a group of friends um
with same-age children so likecarolyn just needs to get fucked
yeah and but she i know that inthe end she it's not a love
interest it could be like aflingy love interest but and how
(28:13):
did you feel when that guy fromyour class said that your
character didn't seem into it oreven into guys like Okay, well,
let me ask you.
When you heard it, did you getthat?
So, at first, when she's like,she's going for her keys, but
(28:37):
you're like, oh, half-heartedlyor not really.
Right.
So, it's like, oh, she's sortof, I think she's sort of coy.
Like, she's a little bit like,oh.
And then...
later when you say she goes forher keys again, because she
urgently wants to go inside andlike do more, right?
Essentially.
Yeah.
(28:58):
I think, um, To me, the scenereads as kind of like cat and
mouse.
Sure.
Like, you know?
Like a little cat and mouse,like, make-out sesh.
Okay, I think that's actuallykey.
You said it, and I think thatthat's how he read it, too.
Half-heartedly going for herkeys.
I meant to write that as she wasonly sort of trying to go to the
(29:21):
keys because she was really waymore into making out.
Yeah.
So I think that has to bewritten differently.
Or just, um...
Yeah.
If someone is trying to make outwith you on the step and you're,
you know, in your twenties orwhatever, like, I feel like
(29:42):
maybe it would like the idea ofbeing so like, like into
somebody and captivated that youwouldn't like think to go for
your keys you don't even wantyour keys no you're just not
even like maybe when she goes upthe steps she goes for her keys
but then he pulls her into akiss and it's like she's she's
(30:05):
not thinking about that anymorelike it seems like her attention
is divided in a way that puts memore in mind of like maybe
somebody like me who like say Iget home from a date with my
husband who I've been with for10 years sure it's like oh I'm
enjoying this kiss or whateverlet me grab my keys let's get
inside i want to like right notlike i'm 22 i've been dating
(30:25):
this guy for two months and likehe's kissing me and this is like
so exciting like okay okay okayi'm trying to so okay so because
this really happened this likethis literal scene actually
happened so this is my grown-upmemory thinking of when i was 18
19 18 i was 18 and Um, how longhave you been with this guy?
(30:48):
Literally one of our first, like10 days, like maybe like six
dates in.
And I remember we were walkingup the steps and I already had
my hand in my purse to get mykeys.
And then we stopped to make outat the door for a second.
And so my hand was already in mypurse and I was kind of like
still fumbling for the keyswhile, so I like literally wrote
it how it happened.
But it was, I was more like, weneed to get inside, but I'm only
(31:11):
half looking because now I'minto it.
No, no, no.
Gotta turn.
Gotta get the keys.
Because I want to go in.
I want to go in, yeah.
So, maybe I just need to bewritten where...
But, okay, so then Jack's thingis, like, is she even into guys?
And I'm like, huh.
Am I, like, what?
Maybe that's not someone who'ssuper into the make-out.
Like, maybe that's what thatmeans.
(31:34):
I wasn't really into Dane, sothat's a fact.
Yeah, and there's another thing,which, if this is, like, too
much information, we can justcut it.
But, like...
Um, you've told me before aboutlike pushing people away.
Oh yes.
Well, I do do that.
Like intimacy.
(31:54):
Like is eye contact a thing orwas that somebody else that told
me?
Eye contact is not a problem forme.
How?
So that would be someone else.
But like I definitely pushpeople away.
I have a hard time withcloseness in general.
Yeah.
And, um, In that scene, she'spushing him away.
She literally pushes him awaywith her ass.
(32:15):
Yeah.
Which is cute.
It's cute.
It's like my signature move.
It's flirty.
Just put your ass into it.
Exactly.
But there is something aboutthat scene that feels like...
like she's pushing him away.
(32:36):
Like she, she's not reallyengaging fully.
Yeah.
I was never very into Dane.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess it just readsthat way.
Cause it's true.
Yeah.
And that's okay.
Like it doesn't have to be, um,that's like the same kind of
thing in my work, right?
Like when they're sex orwhatever, like it's complicated.
It's not always like, Oh, andthen he, you know, his arms
(32:58):
floated to my bosom.
UNKNOWN (33:02):
Um,
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
my undercarriage was slick oh my god what is this
1922 oh my god well yeah anywaysi don't know okay well that was
my first attempt at anythingeven sexy it wasn't even a
conscious attempt i didn't dothe sex scene because i had like
(33:24):
a total block on like how tostart But you did write a short
story.
Yes, I wrote.
Yes, I did my homework.
I wrote a short story.
It was awesome.
Actually, what I did was soyears ago, my husband gave me
this box for Christmas and itwas like called like a writer's
helper or something.
And it's sort of looks like agame.
(33:46):
Like there's a wheel that youspin.
There's all these things thatlook like popsicle sticks and
they'll have like the first lineof a story.
The other one has a characterthat Um, the other one has an
action.
So you spin the wheel and thenyou do that.
Like you get like the elementsof a story and then you write
it.
It's like a prompt.
Oh my God.
We should do that for an episodeat the end.
(34:08):
We'll do it.
And then the next episode, weboth come in with our short
stories.
You having the same prompt andsee how different they are.
Oh shit.
That sounds fun.
That sounds really fun.
Okay.
So keep going.
Okay.
And do we have to add a sexscene in it?
Oh, well, if you were trying tochallenge me, perhaps.
Yes.
Well, okay.
So I'll, keep going with what Iwas saying.
So anyway, I've never fuckingused it because I've always been
(34:32):
very, I've always had like, youknow, 10 ideas for a story at
once.
But since I started myWellbutrin, I'm not really
getting as many ideas.
And I feel like everybody in themedical and psychiatry community
is like, they'll just say itpoint blank.
They're like, your meds for yourmental illnesses are don't have
(34:57):
anything to do with yourcreativity.
You do not have to be mentallyill to be creative.
And people say like, that's likea really harmful, like
stereotype about the creativeperson.
That's, um, you know, insidethey're like suffering and then,
you know, they end up likekilling themselves and like,
yes, it was in that book that weread the war of war and art.
(35:19):
Oh, does he talk about that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, um, Um, like Sylvia Plath,the bell jar, like she killed
like so many artists killthemselves.
Holy shit.
Like I just, there's the 27club.
Yeah, there is.
Um, so people are like, takeyour meds.
Like you are still be just ascreative.
(35:39):
Um, My experience right now isno, I am not as creative, which
is a bummer, but there's so manyother aspects of my life that
have gotten better.
So I'm going to try to.
Instead of going off the medsand trying to fix every other
area of my life and beingcreative, I'm going to have my
(36:00):
meds and try to fix the creativepart.
And so getting this prompt ispart of that.
So I like got a prompt.
I forget what it even said.
And I started with that.
It was like a first line.
And then I wrote this story andit's like a thriller and there's
like two, there's like twists init.
There is.
It's good.
I mean, if this is you not beingcreative, I am very excited to
(36:24):
finish reading your book.
Oh my God.
Cool.
I really liked the story that Iput out.
It went places that like, it'sjust so cool.
Like having the blank page andjust starting, like I just wrote
that in an afternoon.
Um, I had a hard time ending it.
So I asked Jack GPT.
I pasted my story this is mebeing totally honest I pasted my
(36:47):
story in and then I said toChatGPT I'm like is this a
problem if you're helping mewith my story and ChatGPT told
me it was like If I write thewords for you, like if I
literally write a sentence andyou just put that in there, then
yes, that is a problem.
But ChatGPG said likebrainstorming with me and
(37:09):
getting feedback and, you know,getting some editing and
grammatical stuff like that.
Nobody's going to fault you forthat.
So I'm like, oh, sure.
Okay, ChatGPG.
So I asked ChatGPG.
Very wise.
I was like, I pasted my story inthere and I was like, how should
this end?
And ChatGPT gave me like sixdifferent options and like
(37:31):
immediately.
And at first it was like, thisstory slaps.
And I was like, thanks ChatGPT.
But I didn't say thanks becauseapparently whenever you say
thanks to ChatGPT, it usesresources and people just keep
doing it.
So I'm like, I stopped thanking.
It's so realistic soundingthough.
It's hard not to.
I know you really feel likeyou're talking to someone.
So it gave me six differentendings and they were all neat
(37:55):
in their own way.
And I ended up kind of combininga couple of ideas.
Like, it just helped me breakthrough.
I didn't use any particularidea, but I just, it helped me
go, oh, okay.
And then, you know, there werejust like a couple of things,
like the fact that when theprotagonist is driving, she sees
(38:18):
the van on a, like a pullout.
Mm-hmm.
Like, I didn't know the wordsfor that.
Like, you know what I mean?
And so I ended up doing that andstuff like that.
Um, yeah.
So I was like, I mean, that'sthe same as looking something up
in an encyclopedia.
Yeah.
Or like, or like workshoppingsomething in a class or
(38:39):
whatever.
Um, I am careful with it.
Like I wouldn't, I don't likecut and paste ever like
sentences or anything like that,but I do, I do paste my stuff in
there and get chat, chat GPT totalk to me about it.
What if chat GPT puts out a bookone day and is your stories
collectively turned into a bookthat it's created and then
(39:01):
there's nothing you can do aboutit oh that would not be good
that would be a good sciencefiction book oh my gosh okay
this is i have an idea for ashort story with chat gpt where
it's like this person is likeokay can you help me write the
eulogy for like my sister orsomething like that and then
chat gpt goes sure and she shehas some requests for you for
(39:27):
the eulogy And it's like, whatdo you mean she has requests?
And it's like ChatGPT can talkto the dead sister.
Oh, my.
Wait, hold on.
I'm sorry.
This is already a thing?
No, I was going to maybe writethis.
I love that.
Okay, maybe I'll not put it onhere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just write it.
(39:47):
Okay.
Okay.
Anyways.
Do you need a clap?
Oh, yeah.
So basically I wrote this, myfirst short story and I ended up
sharing it with a bunch ofpeople and got great feedback.
And then I submitted it to, um,a journal and I haven't, I
didn't write down which one.
Oh my gosh.
Somebody's reading it right now.
Oh my God.
The Sholly.
(40:08):
Okay.
So there's this mom at school.
Oh, there's a mom at school.
Yeah.
Oh, that's not what an editorfrom a journal.
No, I was going to be soexcited.
Damn it.
No, it was like, like I juststruck up a conversation with
this woman at drop off and Ijust started oversharing about
me and everything I'm doing andall this stuff and she thought
(40:29):
that it was so interesting thatI was writing creative fiction
and she I told her about thisand she said she wanted to read
it and I didn't even know herlike I mean I kind of know her
she's beautiful and she came tomy kids birthday party but I'm
like I'm like, are you sure youwant to read this?
And she's like, yeah, I'm veryinterested.
I was like, it's pretty dark.
(40:50):
And like in it, there's a womanwho's like 55 and she's lusting
after her 25 year old clientthat she's giving therapy to.
And she's thinking all theselike nasty thoughts and stuff.
And I'm like, oh my God, a momfrom my kid's school is going to
read this shit.
Oh yeah.
But it, I think it's the perfectamount because it's, it, it
(41:12):
never, you never dive into the Ithink that's a very realistic.
It's realistic.
It's like sometimes you thinkthings.
I mean, like, 60-year-olds think25-year-olds are hot.
Yeah.
I mean, that's allowed.
It's not like she gets on theground and sucks them off or
something, you know?
Like, I kind of hoped it wentthere, and it didn't.
Oh, my God.
It was like she thought it mighthappen.
(41:32):
She was looking for an earring,and I thought maybe.
Ooh, he's going to put the D inthe B.
And then if Vishal goes thatway, that's on Vishal.
Yes.
Yeah.
It looks like she made notes.
Oh, okay.
Oh, no.
she didn't make notes maybe yeahI think these were notes from so
my dad wrote me a note which wasso sweet he said very twisty I
(41:53):
loved it yeah um he thought thatthe whole story was a dream and
that the lady was gonna wake upfrom the dream and he didn't
realize until the very end thatit was real and he said that
that made it even more shockingwhich was cool um and then my
friend Blair who's also a writershe gave me this tip where I
don't know she said that like abunch of the narration it would
(42:17):
be a fun exercise to try to putthat in scene because I have a
couple of paragraphs where I'mlike I'm a therapist I work here
this and that and the otherClayton's like this and I read
more of showing less tellingyeah you know what Blair you can
go show yourself the door I meanyou could somehow do that you
know like describe her office astandard therapist office you
(42:39):
know yeah that it's night likekind of show that no one's
around show that she readsromance novels from the 1980s
show show somehow that herdaughter is like on this trip so
that would be like her likelooking at her messages and
there's no message from herdaughter like I don't know you
know there's ways but it's ashort story so you kind of
(43:00):
really have to pack it you gottapack it in I think I think it
was great you didn't think itwas like slow at the beginning
with the explaining um I'll haveto read it again to give you an
honest opinion but uh I becauseI read it while I was walking to
go get my kids from school sothank you I I don't feel like it
(43:21):
felt slow although I was excitedonce more action started
happening so maybe that yeahit's not all gonna be like this
right yeah it's hard to win likeas a debut writer if this gets
published somewhere or likesomebody's thinking about
publishing it, it's like,there's not that trust there.
Sure.
(43:41):
Like if Stephen King writes ashort story and the first few
paragraphs are kind of boring,I'm like, I trust that this is
going to pick up and getexciting.
I know that this is, this is amaster, right?
Whereas it's like, Oh, like somerandom person emailed me, wants
to get published.
I read the first couple ofparagraphs.
Where's this going?
I don't know.
I'm going to check anotheremail.
(44:02):
Right.
So I think it's important forlike day Yeah.
I would agree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(44:29):
Yeah.
books that we like just 10novels that we like read the
very first paragraph of them andjust note like put down the
notes of like Generally, thatvery first paragraph either gets
you or doesn't.
And if they're books you like,those are paragraphs that got
(44:50):
you.
And you didn't even really knowthat it was that first
paragraph.
Is that what he said?
Yeah.
So he said that we had to comein with a few first paragraphs.
So I'm going to go back to someof my favorite books and read
the first paragraphs and seewhat I see.
You know, like, what was it thatgrabbed me?
Because generally...
(45:10):
I find that I don't remember thefirst paragraph.
So, like, it's hard, but I must.
I mean, that's clearly a thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, okay, I might be wrongabout this, but I think in Gone
Girl, maybe in the firstparagraph, there's just this
line where Nick, the husband,is, like, looking at the back of
(45:33):
his wife Amy's head and, like,her perfect little bob or
whatever.
Yeah.
And I'll never forget, like,he's like, what is it about the
back of somebody's head thatjust makes you want to...
And it was, like, somethingabout, like, bludgeoning.
But, like, not that word, but,like, it's just, like, the back
of somebody's head.
I think that's, like, to me,that's, like, really powerful
(45:56):
because it's, like, they'recompletely...
Even if they know you're there,like, they don't know what
you're doing right there.
Totally.
Ah, it's so scary.
I've been so jealous of that.
Whatever the line was, just,like, there's something about
the back of someone's head.
Sure, yeah.
It's, like, so evocative.
I think the same thing aboutsleep.
(46:17):
The fact that you're justasleep.
You're just literally layingthere unconscious.
And we all just trust the entireworld to not just, like, come
and do whatever they want in ourpresence.
Like, you're asleep.
I mean, obviously, we're not,like, dead to the world.
But, like, you could be.
You could be just, like, druggedout.
Like, you...
You're just laying thereunconscious.
(46:39):
Oh, my God, yeah.
I had an entire therapy sessionone time about how, like, I'm
very freaked out about whathappens while I'm asleep.
Oh, really?
But it's the same kind of thing.
Like, when you wake up, are youlike, what happened?
No, more like...
Okay, this is going to go extradark for a second.
(46:59):
Okay, okay.
But, like, I have...
I'm not...
Disclaimer.
I am not scared of my husband.
I am not scared of him in anyway, shape, or form.
There's nothing to be afraid of,folks.
There's nothing to be afraid of.
He is a very loving man.
However...
Understatement.
I...
I...
All the time...
Think...
if he wanted to kill me, hecould kill me every single
(47:21):
night.
And I'm going to sleep beforehim, and I have to just trust
that he's not going to go get akitchen knife and decide that
this is it for me.
And we, as women, marry ournatural predators, men, the only
things that consistently killwomen, and we're married to
them, and we live with them, andwe just have to trust that
they're not going to kill us inour sleep.
(47:44):
That's dark and scary and weird,but I think about it all the
time.
It's the back of your head.
Oh, it is.
It is.
It is the back of your head.
It's that same vibe.
And I've thought about thatbefore, too, because, okay, same
with me.
Like, my husband is great andnormal and everything and loves
me and has never...
(48:07):
even physically hurt like anyonelike he's never punched anyone
anyone at a bar like he's justnot violent um but yeah i've
thought about that because it'slike who which woman Right.
I hope so.
Right.
(48:40):
I don't think that they're justdumb, you know, like it's like,
well, also when, you know,obviously I've listened to a few
too many true crime podcasts,but it's always the people that
like, I never saw it coming.
He loved her so much.
I'm like, we are set up for amurder in this house.
Oh, totally.
Cause your husband loves you somuch.
He loves me so much.
No one would ever believe it.
(49:02):
But I'm a real bitch.
I push him to the brink.
I mean, maybe, I don't know.
I don't think so though, but Icould, Okay, this is starting to
scare me.
Okay, we should stop.
We're going back.
Okay, I'll write that.
I will write a short story aboutthat.
I think that that would becathartic.
I'm going to do that.
Okay.
Just a note on that.
So my sister sent me this.
(49:24):
It was just like a quote onInstagram.
It says, be someone whounsettles mediocre men today.
Oh, I like it.
I was like...
I was like, be careful.
He might kill you.
Like, don't unsettle him.
Oh, no.
And my sister's like, that'ssuch an American thing to think.
And I'm like, girl, you betterbe thinking that.
(49:47):
I mean, okay, of course we haveto unsettle.
I mean, I don't even know.
I don't really, I don't evenknow what, what does she mean?
But...
But America is where the mostcrime and hateful men are.
Yeah.
Oh, well, currently, well,there's guns here and there's
not really there.
Um, but guys are just as shittythere too.
(50:08):
If we ever have a male listener,um, Fuck you.
No, I'm just kidding.
That's not what I was expectingyou to say, and I loved it.
Okay.
No, you're great.
Just make sure you keep yourbros in check.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's all.
That's all I want.
That's all.
(50:28):
Okay, I think that maybe...
Okay, so our homework is what?
Well, first we have to keeplistening to and or finish the
book that we've been listeningto.
A Thorn of Grace and Rose.
no graces no graces fairy uhcourt of thorn and roses can i
say a few more things about thisbook sure we have a little time
(50:51):
um So do people know that thisis a Beauty and the Beast
reenactment?
I did not get that, but thatmakes perfect sense, yes.
I've never heard that, but likebeat for beat, it's like the
main girl, she has to leave herfather, her like sad father, and
(51:11):
like go in this place and belocked up.
And like she refuses to eat allthe delicious food.
Like Belle was like that too.
She was.
And yeah, like the wholedelicious food thing.
There's other beats that...
that are just like it um in inthe so i think it's they there
it must be official like theremust be something on the back
(51:32):
copy or like there just must besomething because it's like too
close but it's okay um and thenthe other thing i wanted to say
about this book was okay If youhaven't read it, it is a fantasy
book and there's fairies andmortals and the love interest of
the mortal girl is this dude whoHe can transform into a wolf.
(51:58):
A wolf lion-ish.
A wolf feline body, she says.
And horns?
With horns, right?
Like an elk.
Elk horns, wolf head, felinebody.
Okay.
So what I think is that...
And so he can transform from ahot, muscular dude in a
(52:21):
really...
doesn't he
SPEAKER_01 (52:23):
have like a
SPEAKER_00 (52:24):
buddy mask flirty mask The mask is too much, okay?
What is the mask?
The mask.
It's golden with emerald,emeralds in it.
And I think it's a wolf.
Oh, it's a wolf.
Okay.
But you can see his eyes and hismouth and like his jaw.
I know his friends of Fox.
His friends of Fox.
(52:44):
His friends of Fox.
But like, I clearly, I misreadit, but I've been imagining a
bunny mask.
A bunny mask?
That makes no sense.
SPEAKER_01 (52:57):
It's not hot.
SPEAKER_00 (52:58):
There's no bunnies in this at all.
And he turns into a wolf.
I'm definitely seeing reallylong ears.
That's like some Donnie Darkoshit.
It's very Donnie Darko.
(53:19):
Girl.
to what I was imagining untilright now.
Oh my god.
But you know what I wasthinking?
It would be cool to have aboyfriend that can turn into
like a dog because then wheneveryou want to cuddle, it's like,
honey, can you go into like yourwolf mode so we can snuggle?
Wouldn't that be cute?
(53:40):
You're like scratch behind his,like not for sex, but for like
Scratch behind his ears, hislittle leg goes, you know, it
starts going really fast.
And you have a dog and aboyfriend all in one.
And the other thing is, in thisbook, I never know if he's in
his wolf form or in his guyform, because it'll be like,
(54:01):
I'll think that he's a guy andthey're walking around doing
stuff, but then it'll say thathe like snarls.
Yeah, there's a lot of snarling.
There's a lot of snarling.
And also claws just beneath theskin.
Yeah, so there's claws.
All the time.
And I'm like, where are, is itlike Wolverine?
Cause I'm imagining maybe it'slike Wolverine where they're
just like right at the knuckles,like ready to go.
(54:22):
Okay.
So when, cause whenever theclaws come out, I think he's a
wolf and I'm like, how is he awolf at dinner?
Like why doesn't he just turninto, um, back into the guy?
But I guess maybe the, the clawsare coming out of his man hands.
I think that it's, I think, youknow, bunny mask was clearly
wrong.
However, I think that it's, he'snormally man form, um, like
(54:44):
think Wolverine.
Okay.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
So we're going to keep onreading this book.
It's our first romanticist bookthat either of us have read.
Obviously I'm flying through it.
Um, I thought I was, and thenlook at you chapter 32.
Well, I had to like cut out allthese felt, um, owl feathers
last night and it was justtaking forever.
(55:05):
So I just sort of had it on.
Um, yeah, I don't know.
This may be my one and only everromanticist that I read.
It's not that I don't like itbut I guess I was kind of
thinking could I write in thisgenre like I was almost thinking
like this short story that Iwrote I was like can I make this
romanticist so someone willfucking publish it I'm like
(55:27):
maybe I could make the late theguy like this this 25 year old
guy who's coming in for therapyand he's a little bit scary
maybe when he leaves the officeyou just see like the shoulders
of his shirt like kind of pop upand you you see like these
feathers like at the bottom andyou're like oh he fey and like
all of a sudden you're like inthis like fantasy world a little
(55:48):
bit i know i'm gonna shut thatdown i don't think so it's great
how it is with real humans and ithink too it's like okay this is
something that i actually reallyreally truly believe and i need
to think up like a really goodquote about it so i can quote
myself or just like but the onlything that is setting us apart
(56:10):
from like chat gpt and ai is ourhearts and souls and spirits as
humans i mean chat gpt isn't asgood as it's going to be in
terms of creative writing but itwill get there um and if you
don't write from your heart ifyou don't follow your your
interests and pour your spiritand soul into your artwork then
(56:35):
there's no point in doing itthat's how i truly feel um so
even though sometimes i havethese little ideas like maybe
i'll make something i'm tryingto be commercial or i'm trying
to you know what i'm saying likelike meet the audience where
they're at um I always need tocheck myself on that.
(56:56):
Like, just don't do it.
Like, don't write about fairiesif you don't give a shit about
fairies.
No.
You know, I really, I think thatthere's authors like George R.R.
Martin and all of these peoplewho, they clearly love to create
an entire world.
Like, they don't want to be onEarth.
They want to be in a differentuniverse.
(57:17):
Yes.
And I don't want to be in adifferent universe.
Like, I'm cool with here.
So I think there's just somepeople who whose brains are not
in this realm and like that'swhere they're more comfortable
and like that's good I thinkthat that's like that's a talent
and skill all on its own yeahand totally even when I was the
(57:37):
most imaginative kid at my peakwhich was wild I was a very
imaginative child um I wasalways on earth like there was
no other worldly place for me soI think that that's where I'm
comfortable staying I thinkthat's a good way to look at it
yeah yeah um cool so we're gonnaI love your okay I love your
(58:00):
thing of reading these firstparagraphs of your favorite
books yeah do you think maybenext time I mean we have ideas
for other episodes but maybe wecould share like one or two sure
I think that that would be goodfor people who are listening too
it's like we can talk about whatthey did and why it's so
gripping totally yeah okay solet's do that and then um will
(58:21):
you bring in your writer We cango through that.
We can go through that.
And then we can, the nextepisode, bring in the little
story that we wrote.
Okay.
Yeah.
That sounds great.
So thank you for listening andwe'll be back again soon.
We'll be back.
UNKNOWN (58:42):
Thanks.
Hey, this is Write Your Heart Out, the podcast.
I'm Kayla Ogden.
And I'm Rachel Sear.
And this podcast is aboutwriting.
We just talk about our writinglives and things that we've read
and things that we're working onand just have a good chat.
Yep.
So on the last episode, Racheland I challenged ourselves to do
(00:25):
something.
I said I was going to write myfirst short story and Rachel was
going to write a sex scene,which she has never done before.
But I just wanted to tell Rachelto start that in book publishing
world, Louis C.K.
(00:45):
announced that he wrote novellike a fiction book what okay
yeah yeah so I'm still on hisnewsletter and it's it's called
Ingram okay does it have alittle synopsis I feel like his
(01:10):
synopsis was written by ChatGPT.
Maybe.
It says, A suspenseful, oftenharrowing, yet hopeful odyssey
through rural America follows ayoung drifter's coming of age in
an indifferent world in thisdebut novel by comedian Louis
C.K.
Interesting.
And he's like, oh, it turns outthat I like write novels.
Well, he has to find somethingto do since he got cancelled.
(01:33):
Yeah.
He...
I mean, I have...
I like Louis C.K.
I'm not saying I don't like him.
However, he does need to findsomething else to do if he wants
to continue to make money.
Yeah.
Yeah, because he used to havethose humongous specials
where...
Like he did Madison SquareGarden, I believe.
(01:53):
And I think that he produced atsome point he began producing
those shows himself, which, youknow, he's like, actually, I
know how to hire a film crew.
I know how to rent a space.
I know how to market my show.
I've been doing this forever.
And so that.
I mean money wise that's hugelike he was making so much money
(02:15):
before his downfall totally umso I was a fan of Louis CK when
he did his show Louis and then Iwatched all of his specials and
I really liked him me too andthen um during probably the
height of the me too was it yeahno that was right smack in the
me too thing yeah yeah he umapparently it was pretty much
(02:40):
known for a long time within youknow a certain section of the
comedy community that louis ckwas like a bit pervy And that he
had done this to these twofemale comedians, right?
And this is like old news, butbasically he invited these up
and coming female comedians upto his hotel room.
(03:00):
They were like full on wearingtheir winter jackets and stuff.
And they sat down on the bed andthey thought they were going to
hang out and they thought it wassweet because it's like, oh,
hell yeah, this is Louis C.K.
And then he asks them if he canmasturbate in front of them.
and they are like laughing likethey can't believe that this is
happening and they think he'sjoking i think they think he's
(03:23):
joking i would think he wasjoking i think i'd be like yeah
yeah go for it like joking yeahi wouldn't be serious right i
don't know how it would be soweird it would be so weird so so
so weird and because i wouldalso be like what are you gonna
do next but that's all he did hejust splooged on his pants or
whatever and then they like leftthey like ran out of there
(03:45):
cackling like what the fuck justhappen.
And then they told people whotold them to just stop talking
about it.
They're like, just stop talkingabout it.
Like Louie's like powerful,whatever.
Well, even like Sarah Silvermanwas one of the people he's like,
she, he does that.
Like, don't worry about it.
Right?
Do you remember that?
So what I remember is, like,later on, I remember her coming
(04:07):
out and doing this apology andbeing like, sometimes our
friends do bad things andda-da-da.
But then later on, she said,yeah, Louis did that to me, too.
Oh.
Okay, I missed that part.
And she said, but at the time,it was like I was more powerful
than him.
So I was just sort of like, oh,fucking whatever.
Fine.
(04:28):
You're disgusting.
Like...
And she just let him do it, andshe didn't really think it was a
big deal, but she said that shecould understand why these other
women found it, like, abhorrent,and that they shouldn't have
been silenced, and he shouldhave been held accountable.
Sure.
I'm like, wow, you are SarahSilverman, and your friend
(04:53):
just...
what asks you to masturbate infront of you and he wants you to
basically like humiliate himlike that's this thing I mean
yeah and then we can cut allthis if you want cuz it's not
really relevant but yeah andthen he gets up once so after
that all came out he did comeout with another special a few
years later after saying that hewas gonna be quiet for a while
(05:15):
and just listen and And he goes,you know what's super weird?
You know, when he gets back onstage, he's like, you know
what's super weird?
Everybody knows what, like, mything is now.
That is weird.
He's like, we all have a thing.
You know, we all have someweird, creepy thing that we like
that, like, gets us off.
And now everybody knows whatmine is.
And, like, what his is ismasturbating while women laugh
(05:37):
at him.
Which is now all of us.
We're all laughing at him now.
So, like, is this, like, theultimate thing?
Is he so hardy now?
Just, like, he doesn't even haveto try.
He's just, like, everyone hatesme.
I'm going to do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like, dude, exactly.
Because then I started thinkingabout his old comedy specials
where I was like, oh, I rememberhim telling this story about
(05:58):
he's going into the, he findsthis warehouse and there's this,
um, sex worker there and he'sstepping over like, like people
like drug abusers and I don'tknow he's like he's talking
about whipping out his dick andhis disgusting dick and he's
doing this like he's doing thisshow in front of an audience of
people who are laughing at himand he's pretending to jerk off
(06:20):
to like tell this joke right andI'm like he's molesting all of
us he's molesting all of usright now he likes this on a sex
level this isn't just him doinga special he's like he probably
goes home and he's like youknow, 40,000 people laughed at
me pretending to masturbatetoday.
(06:41):
This is the best.
Yeah.
He's like, this is so hot.
So like, so he's just likewriting in his own sex.
I mean, I think that that'sactually ties in perfectly.
He's just writing in his ownfantasy.
So like with this crap, um, whatdid we just read?
The, um, court of thorns androses.
Yes.
Yes.
(07:02):
Um, where we're reading, we'rein process.
I am chapter 20, but I haven'tgotten to any sex yet.
Look where I am.
32?
Have you gotten to sex?
Have they done it yet?
Do you want to know?
Of course I want to know.
20 just finally bitter.
Like in like in a sexy way, notlike a blood vampire way.
(07:24):
And she grinded her hips.
Oh, yeah.
There was some grinding.
Yeah.
But that was it.
And I was like, this is a goodlittle tease.
But yeah, that's fine.
So they're fucking now.
Look at your face.
She's making a face, you guys.
They do have sex.
Okay.
And it's good.
Okay.
(07:45):
So that's why you got to chapter32.
The bite happened and you'relike, I gotta keep going.
Well, I literally, okay.
Yeah.
I mean, this is a very engagingbook.
A Court of Thorns and Roses bySarah J.
Maas.
And we decided to read itbecause, um, Rachel was just
(08:06):
thinking about, you know, spiceand writing sex scenes because
of something that you submittedin your class.
Do you want to tell me aboutthat?
Sure.
So, so, oh, excuse me.
So, uh, in class, It wasn't asex scene.
It's not a sex scene.
It is a scene in which there arepeople making out at a doorway.
(08:30):
And it's cut off on purpose.
And I didn't think of it as aparticularly sexy scene.
You wrote this in a story.
I wrote this in a story.
It's in a ghost story.
And I can read the little blurbin which this happens.
And it's like two19-year-olds...
(08:51):
Making out in a doorway, theywalk in, and then, like, this
ghost thing happens, so it getscut off.
Do you want to read it?
Sure, I can.
Yeah, and then I'll go on.
And then I'll give you thereaction of one of my classmates
that was, it, like, took meback.
Not took me back.
It made me, like, took me aback,would be the right word.
(09:11):
Do you want to hold your coffee?
Sure, thank you.
And so I'll tell you his commentafter reading it, because I was
like, huh.
Was he just reading way tooin-depth?
Or...
What?
Okay.
Anyway.
So, um...
A little backstory.
These two girls live in anapartment together.
(09:32):
And they have...
but just between themselvesfeeling like there's ghosts in
their apartment.
They've talked about it withthemselves, but they've never
talked to the guys that they'redating about it.
This is based on a true story,right?
It is based on a true story.
Is it pretty much this truth oris, are there embellishments
that you, there's a little bitof embellishment, but yeah.
(09:55):
Um, but it's, it's based ontruth.
It happened with me and my oldroommate.
Okay.
Um, and so at this point, Emilyand Rachel, me and my roommate,
uh, have had dinner with ourguys that we're dating and, uh,
are going to head back to ourapartment.
(10:17):
Okay.
So, uh, Dane is the guy that I'mdating in this.
And okay, here we go.
We're going to start with Danepats my butt and opens...
to opens the truck door for melet's go he'll figure it out
eventually he says quietly sochris won't hear i guess i
should have started after thatuh okay hold on okay do you want
(10:41):
to start again yes do you wantto do the preamble and stuff too
or just no i think i'll messthat up okay just start where
you're I hoist myself inside,and by the time I'm buckled,
he's already starting theengine.
Well, that was fast, I sayaccusingly, poking fun.
Not where it matters, he winks.
(11:01):
I give him a cheeky smile, andhe turns out of the strip mall
lot.
Within minutes, we're at our ownapartment.
We're at our apartment.
I lead him up the stairs, and wespend a few minutes kissing
against the door while I fumblethrough my purse, only
half-heartedly looking for mykeys.
Okay, okay, pause.
I turn and push my butt into himto get him to back away.
(11:23):
He pulls my waist closer,standing behind me, kissing
under my jawline.
I start looking more urgentlyfor my keys, eager to take it
inside.
I feel the key and hastily openthe door, pulling him to me.
Immediately, he drops his handsfrom my waist and positions
himself next to me.
I wasn't prepared for such anabrupt end to our kissing and
feel caught off guard.
(11:43):
Holy shit, Dane says deadpan.
What?
I look up at him and then lookaround the room.
A family died here.
He says this as a matter offact, and I take a step forward
so that I can turn to look athim.
How does Jane know?
Okay, so I've heard the actualghost story before, so I kind of
know about this, but damn.
(12:06):
Should we...
Okay.
Should we be able to tell thelisteners where they can read
this?
Or do you want to submit it?
Because sometimes people won'tpublish it if you've even put it
on a message board or a blog oranything.
Do you want us to wait?
I still need to edit it somemore.
Clearly, I mean, I was fumblingwith it because it's badly
written.
It's a draft.
(12:29):
It's rough, yeah.
So once I get it edited up alittle bit, I think that I'll
probably submit it and thenfigure out where...
Or we could make a little blogthing for our writing and just
have a few things up there.
What do you think?
I think that we'll see.
I think for starters, we'll justsay when Rachel's ghost story is
(12:53):
published, we'll share the link.
And then, you know, We'll justsee how it goes, like, down the
line.
Okay, I mean, I do think we'redancing on this little line of
we both want to be writers.
So if we're just giving away abunch of stuff, then it's a
little...
Yeah.
I guess what I'm thinking, okay,well, this is crazy, but there's
(13:16):
a lot of literary journals oranthologies that can happen or
newsletters or subsects or thatkind of thing.
So in the future, if we want toput something like that
together, maybe we'll be able tojust...
have it have our work likehosted somewhere and then that's
a good place for it to bevisible but right now I think
we're just like trying to getsome publishing under our belts
(13:39):
um great so would you read umIngram by Louis CK I bet it's
good but would you read it Iwould read it sure I'll give it
a shot yeah yeah it's not that Iwant to read I don't know I
think that it will be good I'mjust kind of pissed off that he
(14:00):
can do whatever he wants andit's not that I'm like entirely
like oh this man should never beable to be creative again or you
know try like I think thatthat's fine but I guess I think
it's because it's coupled withthis other publishing deal that
just happened with Mr.
Beast oh we didn't finish thatconversation fully so Mr.
(14:23):
Beast is a 2020 He's 27 yearsold.
He's a billionaire.
Yeah, he's he's actually likeamazing.
he's not like all tooaltogether, like altruistic.
And he definitely has like amischievous little like pixie
side to him.
Um, but anyways, he's like, Ooh,I'm a writer now.
(14:46):
And he teamed up with, um, JamesPatterson, James Pat, James
fucking Patterson.
Interesting.
And he's like, Oh, I'm going tohave a book now.
And so wait, is James Pattersonghostwriting it for him and not
in a ghosty way?
Like how are they teamed up onthis?
I think James Patterson puts hisname on a bunch of stuff so that
(15:10):
it'll sell.
I don't know how involvedbecause it's like you'll see a
bunch of.
books that have like, like thissays Michael Crichton, James
Patterson.
He's the guy who wrote JurassicPark.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
So this one's James Pattersonand David Ellis.
So I guess it would beinteresting to know, like, how
(15:32):
does he work with other authors?
Like, what does he put his nameon?
I'm like having a hard timeimagining Mr.
Beast and James Patterson, likein a room with like coffee and
like writing, like, Yeah.
Like, hammering in there.
Especially because JamesPatterson's, like, 70?
Gotta be, right?
Yeah.
I mean, with Mr.
Beast, I'm like, he...
(15:52):
I feel like he's just gonna,like, get ChatGPT to write it or
something.
Totally.
But, like, what in the world ishe even gonna write?
Like, it's weird.
Like, with Louis C.K., thisthing that he came out with,
this, like, coming-of-age, like,gritty American drama,
suspenseful thing that he'sdoing, it's like, okay...
(16:13):
It's not really in...
with anything else that he'sdone.
And it's like, is Mr.
Beast going to do that?
But either way, both of theseguys are millionaires and they
can just get book deals.
Yeah.
And it is a little bitupsetting.
Just a little bit annoying.
Yeah.
So I guess I'm just a little bitannoyed with it.
And I'm like, there are so manybooks out there.
(16:35):
Like, I don't think I'm going tobuy Louis C.K.''s book or Mr.
Beast's book.
I think that if our book grouppicked Louis C.K.''s book, I'd
happily read it.
If we wanted to read ittogether.
together and happily read it Iwould not on my own volition go
buy Louis CK's book yeah I cansay that for sure yeah yeah um
but if someone wanted to read itand talk about it I that's my
(16:56):
favorite thing so yeah you'relike why not yeah okay cool so
the ghost story okay yeah yeahwith the spice okay let's keep
going with that people areprobably like oh my god Kayla
shut the fuck up and let hertell us well you know they're
gonna have to get to know thefact that you have ADHD it's
gonna be a And also this islike, we like tease it.
(17:19):
We're like, everybody's like, ohmy gosh, just wondering.
They're just like listening andlistening and waiting.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
So that story, um, I can go intothe ghost story further if we
want.
Um, but I read that in class asmy, uh, not that, not that
specific scene.
Actually, even I wrote it, Iread a different scene from the
(17:40):
same story in class as part ofmy workshop, right?
Where we sit in a circle,everyone, or Not everyone.
A few people read and everyonegives feedback.
So this guy in my class, Jack,had...
read the full story which wasyou know like a 14 page story um
(18:02):
and came up to me after classand was like you know i'm just
is your is that character is sheeven into dudes like i feel like
that scene was just so drab likeshe didn't seem like she was
even into it and i was like huhLike, what?
I don't think that that's aparticularly not sexy little
(18:24):
makeout scene, but it's not,not, like, I don't think it's
super, like, I don't think I wastrying to get your motor running
with that one either.
They were just making out of thedoor for a minute.
So, I am, um, I haven't writtena sex scene still.
I know that that was myhomework, but I definitely have
(18:45):
a little mental block about it.
Um, Maybe I'm just, like,turning into a prude in my old
age.
I'm not actually that old, justso you guys know.
But, um, what...
I don't know how to get going.
And that takes us back to theCourt of Thorns and Roses and
(19:06):
maybe even Louis C.K.
Like, are you writing your ownfantasy?
Or are you writing somethingthat you're repulsed by?
Like, when someone writes a sexscene, I think that that's my
hang-up.
It's like, is it...
am I going to be Louis CKsharing my dirty, you know, or
(19:27):
what is it?
You've written a sex scene.
So like, how does this work?
Well, I think it worksdifferently for everybody.
And I think the sex scene reallyneeds to like serve the story.
Well, yes.
Well, like it's, I, one thingthat I've heard about, And I
don't know because I literallyhaven't even finished the first
(19:49):
book from The Accord of Thornsand Roses.
But what I've heard about thisis that there's, you know, a
bunch of books in this seriesand that the first two are
really good.
And then it seems like this isjust what I've heard.
It seems like the author istrying to like in the next
books, just give the people whatthey want.
(20:10):
So it becomes formulaic.
Sex.
Oh, just sex.
Oh, it's just sex at that point.
Well, people are like, oh, itturns into a bit of a soap
opera.
And some people are like, itjust feels like she's just
churning out this stuff.
And I think there's a lot ofhorny young people who like the
(20:31):
sex scenes in these romantic-ybooks.
And she just kind of piled it onin the other ones.
She's like, oh, people lovethis.
Right.
Literally, I don't know what thefuck I'm talking about.
I just heard this from a fewpeople.
For me, sometimes I don't evenreally like...
(20:52):
I don't even really like readingsex scenes per se, especially if
they're really romantic.
I find that pretty cringe,although the one in A Court of
Thorns and Roses was...
very hot and sexual um i have tosay and i think partly it was
because she um dragged it out solong yeah like it's like will
(21:16):
they or won't they for literallylike 25 chapters and you keep on
thinking that this woman you'relike just have sex with the hot
fairy like just it's not likeyou weren't banging Isaac in the
barn back in, like, poor town.
Now you're in, like, hot placewith, like, this guy.
Yeah, you're in a manor, forGod's sake.
(21:36):
Yeah, you're all clean.
You ate some food.
You've got hips now.
You've got curves.
Like, put up to work.
So I think that that, so, like,the sex in that book was, like,
a payoff.
And it was, like, its own storyarc.
And it was really good for me.
Something that I just findmyself doing is I do write sex
(22:01):
scenes, but which is weirdbecause I don't particularly
like reading them.
I think that I am talking abouta lot about experiences that I
had when I was like coming ofage.
Sure.
And, um, the, um, just all thecomplicated feelings like for
young people, young womensurrounding like sex and like
(22:23):
how their approach for sex, um,how there's like desire and
there's, they have like goodsex, but there's also like, they
get into a lot of like scary,sketchy situations with guys
when you're like young andyou're sort of like a free
spirit or you're just, you know,you're just out there.
Or there's a lot of creeps likeLouis CK and you're like okay
(22:47):
and so you don't leave the roomyeah and then it goes beyond
creepy masturbation and turnsinto something else and you're
like well I already said yes andthen it turns into a whole thing
yes yes that happens a lot itdoes it happens a lot um I
remember like I've had a lot ofreally fucked up experiences
when I was younger so I thinkthat I explore that in my
(23:11):
writing like when I had betareaders reading my novel um
Adara was like, oh, is thisgoing to be a spicy book?
Because she read the firstcouple chapters and there's a
lot of like, the character'sthinking about sex like a lot.
And she's like, you could tellshe, Dara wanted me to, I think
that she wanted to read somelike hot and sexy romantic
(23:33):
thing.
And I knew that I had like threesex scenes in the book, but I'm
like, I don't know if I canreally tell you right now.
Like, this is spicy.
Like read this and get a bigwedding.
I'm like, it's, they'recomplicated sex scenes.
For me with reading, I thinkwhen there's a sex scene that I,
(23:54):
Like in movies, they call itlike pan to the window where
there's like a...
You know, it's like thecharacters are about to have sex
and then the camera pans to thewindow and there's like a
flapping
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
curtain.
Yeah, yeah, a
SPEAKER_00 (24:06):
little fade in, fade out.
Fade out and you just know thatthat happened.
I think when I'm reading, ifthere's a sex scene and it's
like two sentences or oneparagraph, I'll always remember
George Orwell's 1984 when theman, Winston, has sex with his
lover in the woods or somethingand it's like very, they're not
(24:28):
supposed posted they're notsupposed to even be together but
there's just like a couple ofit's just a couple of sentences
and it blew my mind when I readit as like a young teenager I
was like like the sentences arejust so um I wish that I had it
I wish I could just read thatyeah um but anyways I think I
like that when there's just likea few sentences it can be as
(24:52):
dirty and raunchy and crazy orpoetic or romantic or whatever
but just something hard-hitting
SPEAKER_01 (24:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
That's what I like to read.
So I think it's up to you if youwant to, do you want to share
like things?
Do you want to write down yourfantasies?
Not really.
I mean, a lot of books don'thave any sex in it at all.
Right.
Like right now we're reading theshark heart thing.
Yeah.
Right.
(25:20):
I'm only like a quarter of theway through, but so far I've
finished it.
Yeah.
Do they have anybody have sex?
No, I can't believe that whenthere's books for adults about
relationships and then theydon't have any sex.
There's, I mean, you'll get to apoint where they're talking
about not, not even the main twocharacters, but the, the woman's
(25:42):
mom um as a younger in heryounger self and um she eludes
to that they have a sort ofabusive relationship going on
like the the mom and the the thefather of oh what's her name
julie oh the what the the thewife yeah her parents have an
(26:04):
abusive relationship that's sosad and so she never really
knows her dad really um but theso i think there might have have
been a bit of a sex scene.
It's not really a sex scene.
You know, like it's a you knowthat they're having sex kind of
a deal.
Yeah.
The I mean, I feel like, I mean,I was telling you the other day,
(26:25):
and Carolyn, my main character,the protagonist in the novel
that I've been chipping away at,she needs to get fucked.
Like, she needs to get fucked.
She has to.
And it has to be, like, betterthan, I mean, the woman had been
married for years.
Her husband died.
She's, like, going through somemental stuff.
And she needs to get fucked.
(26:45):
Like, she really does.
Like, I know this for a fact.
Carolyn needs to get fucked.
So I'm gonna have to writesomething for her.
The girl, we gotta give the girlwhat she needs.
I think that then it should be areally...
good one yeah but I also don'tthink it needs to be I don't
want to draw out some bigromance I want her to get fucked
I don't want to be romantic wedon't need a three page oh
really you don't want it to beromantic you don't want it to be
(27:07):
like a love interest you justwant her to like have like a
meeting with someone and it'sjust sort of like um snowballs
into fucking yeah or maybe likea fuck buddy situation the one
thing I know about thischaracter that is one of the is
her landing place like I knowthat like her journey is going
to kind of change as she getswritten but the landing place is
(27:30):
that she is very happy not beingwith a man and like she wants to
like raise her kids with herfriends and like do a more
community based kind of livingsituation not like a not like a
weird commune way but like likeher one of her best friends is
divorced and another one is likein a relationship where they're
(27:52):
poly and like so they're they'reall very independent women and
that's how they want to stay andlike as a group of friends um
with same-age children so likecarolyn just needs to get fucked
yeah and but she i know that inthe end she it's not a love
interest it could be like aflingy love interest but and how
(28:13):
did you feel when that guy fromyour class said that your
character didn't seem into it oreven into guys like Okay, well,
let me ask you.
When you heard it, did you getthat?
So, at first, when she's like,she's going for her keys, but
(28:37):
you're like, oh, half-heartedlyor not really.
Right.
So, it's like, oh, she's sortof, I think she's sort of coy.
Like, she's a little bit like,oh.
And then...
later when you say she goes forher keys again, because she
urgently wants to go inside andlike do more, right?
Essentially.
Yeah.
(28:58):
I think, um, To me, the scenereads as kind of like cat and
mouse.
Sure.
Like, you know?
Like a little cat and mouse,like, make-out sesh.
Okay, I think that's actuallykey.
You said it, and I think thatthat's how he read it, too.
Half-heartedly going for herkeys.
I meant to write that as she wasonly sort of trying to go to the
(29:21):
keys because she was really waymore into making out.
Yeah.
So I think that has to bewritten differently.
Or just, um...
Yeah.
If someone is trying to make outwith you on the step and you're,
you know, in your twenties orwhatever, like, I feel like
(29:42):
maybe it would like the idea ofbeing so like, like into
somebody and captivated that youwouldn't like think to go for
your keys you don't even wantyour keys no you're just not
even like maybe when she goes upthe steps she goes for her keys
but then he pulls her into akiss and it's like she's she's
(30:05):
not thinking about that anymorelike it seems like her attention
is divided in a way that puts memore in mind of like maybe
somebody like me who like say Iget home from a date with my
husband who I've been with for10 years sure it's like oh I'm
enjoying this kiss or whateverlet me grab my keys let's get
inside i want to like right notlike i'm 22 i've been dating
(30:25):
this guy for two months and likehe's kissing me and this is like
so exciting like okay okay okayi'm trying to so okay so because
this really happened this likethis literal scene actually
happened so this is my grown-upmemory thinking of when i was 18
19 18 i was 18 and Um, how longhave you been with this guy?
(30:48):
Literally one of our first, like10 days, like maybe like six
dates in.
And I remember we were walkingup the steps and I already had
my hand in my purse to get mykeys.
And then we stopped to make outat the door for a second.
And so my hand was already in mypurse and I was kind of like
still fumbling for the keyswhile, so I like literally wrote
it how it happened.
But it was, I was more like, weneed to get inside, but I'm only
(31:11):
half looking because now I'minto it.
No, no, no.
Gotta turn.
Gotta get the keys.
Because I want to go in.
I want to go in, yeah.
So, maybe I just need to bewritten where...
But, okay, so then Jack's thingis, like, is she even into guys?
And I'm like, huh.
Am I, like, what?
Maybe that's not someone who'ssuper into the make-out.
Like, maybe that's what thatmeans.
(31:34):
I wasn't really into Dane, sothat's a fact.
Yeah, and there's another thing,which, if this is, like, too
much information, we can justcut it.
But, like...
Um, you've told me before aboutlike pushing people away.
Oh yes.
Well, I do do that.
Like intimacy.
(31:54):
Like is eye contact a thing orwas that somebody else that told
me?
Eye contact is not a problem forme.
How?
So that would be someone else.
But like I definitely pushpeople away.
I have a hard time withcloseness in general.
Yeah.
And, um, In that scene, she'spushing him away.
She literally pushes him awaywith her ass.
(32:15):
Yeah.
Which is cute.
It's cute.
It's like my signature move.
It's flirty.
Just put your ass into it.
Exactly.
But there is something aboutthat scene that feels like...
like she's pushing him away.
(32:36):
Like she, she's not reallyengaging fully.
Yeah.
I was never very into Dane.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess it just readsthat way.
Cause it's true.
Yeah.
And that's okay.
Like it doesn't have to be, um,that's like the same kind of
thing in my work, right?
Like when they're sex orwhatever, like it's complicated.
It's not always like, Oh, andthen he, you know, his arms
(32:58):
floated to my bosom.
UNKNOWN (33:02):
Um,
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
my undercarriage was slick oh my god what is this
1922 oh my god well yeah anywaysi don't know okay well that was
my first attempt at anythingeven sexy it wasn't even a
conscious attempt i didn't dothe sex scene because i had like
(33:24):
a total block on like how tostart But you did write a short
story.
Yes, I wrote.
Yes, I did my homework.
I wrote a short story.
It was awesome.
Actually, what I did was soyears ago, my husband gave me
this box for Christmas and itwas like called like a writer's
helper or something.
And it's sort of looks like agame.
(33:46):
Like there's a wheel that youspin.
There's all these things thatlook like popsicle sticks and
they'll have like the first lineof a story.
The other one has a characterthat Um, the other one has an
action.
So you spin the wheel and thenyou do that.
Like you get like the elementsof a story and then you write
it.
It's like a prompt.
Oh my God.
We should do that for an episodeat the end.
(34:08):
We'll do it.
And then the next episode, weboth come in with our short
stories.
You having the same prompt andsee how different they are.
Oh shit.
That sounds fun.
That sounds really fun.
Okay.
So keep going.
Okay.
And do we have to add a sexscene in it?
Oh, well, if you were trying tochallenge me, perhaps.
Yes.
Well, okay.
So I'll, keep going with what Iwas saying.
So anyway, I've never fuckingused it because I've always been
(34:32):
very, I've always had like, youknow, 10 ideas for a story at
once.
But since I started myWellbutrin, I'm not really
getting as many ideas.
And I feel like everybody in themedical and psychiatry community
is like, they'll just say itpoint blank.
They're like, your meds for yourmental illnesses are don't have
(34:57):
anything to do with yourcreativity.
You do not have to be mentallyill to be creative.
And people say like, that's likea really harmful, like
stereotype about the creativeperson.
That's, um, you know, insidethey're like suffering and then,
you know, they end up likekilling themselves and like,
yes, it was in that book that weread the war of war and art.
(35:19):
Oh, does he talk about that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, um, Um, like Sylvia Plath,the bell jar, like she killed
like so many artists killthemselves.
Holy shit.
Like I just, there's the 27club.
Yeah, there is.
Um, so people are like, takeyour meds.
Like you are still be just ascreative.
(35:39):
Um, My experience right now isno, I am not as creative, which
is a bummer, but there's so manyother aspects of my life that
have gotten better.
So I'm going to try to.
Instead of going off the medsand trying to fix every other
area of my life and beingcreative, I'm going to have my
(36:00):
meds and try to fix the creativepart.
And so getting this prompt ispart of that.
So I like got a prompt.
I forget what it even said.
And I started with that.
It was like a first line.
And then I wrote this story andit's like a thriller and there's
like two, there's like twists init.
There is.
It's good.
I mean, if this is you not beingcreative, I am very excited to
(36:24):
finish reading your book.
Oh my God.
Cool.
I really liked the story that Iput out.
It went places that like, it'sjust so cool.
Like having the blank page andjust starting, like I just wrote
that in an afternoon.
Um, I had a hard time ending it.
So I asked Jack GPT.
I pasted my story this is mebeing totally honest I pasted my
(36:47):
story in and then I said toChatGPT I'm like is this a
problem if you're helping mewith my story and ChatGPT told
me it was like If I write thewords for you, like if I
literally write a sentence andyou just put that in there, then
yes, that is a problem.
But ChatGPG said likebrainstorming with me and
(37:09):
getting feedback and, you know,getting some editing and
grammatical stuff like that.
Nobody's going to fault you forthat.
So I'm like, oh, sure.
Okay, ChatGPG.
So I asked ChatGPG.
Very wise.
I was like, I pasted my story inthere and I was like, how should
this end?
And ChatGPT gave me like sixdifferent options and like
(37:31):
immediately.
And at first it was like, thisstory slaps.
And I was like, thanks ChatGPT.
But I didn't say thanks becauseapparently whenever you say
thanks to ChatGPT, it usesresources and people just keep
doing it.
So I'm like, I stopped thanking.
It's so realistic soundingthough.
It's hard not to.
I know you really feel likeyou're talking to someone.
So it gave me six differentendings and they were all neat
(37:55):
in their own way.
And I ended up kind of combininga couple of ideas.
Like, it just helped me breakthrough.
I didn't use any particularidea, but I just, it helped me
go, oh, okay.
And then, you know, there werejust like a couple of things,
like the fact that when theprotagonist is driving, she sees
(38:18):
the van on a, like a pullout.
Mm-hmm.
Like, I didn't know the wordsfor that.
Like, you know what I mean?
And so I ended up doing that andstuff like that.
Um, yeah.
So I was like, I mean, that'sthe same as looking something up
in an encyclopedia.
Yeah.
Or like, or like workshoppingsomething in a class or
(38:39):
whatever.
Um, I am careful with it.
Like I wouldn't, I don't likecut and paste ever like
sentences or anything like that,but I do, I do paste my stuff in
there and get chat, chat GPT totalk to me about it.
What if chat GPT puts out a bookone day and is your stories
collectively turned into a bookthat it's created and then
(39:01):
there's nothing you can do aboutit oh that would not be good
that would be a good sciencefiction book oh my gosh okay
this is i have an idea for ashort story with chat gpt where
it's like this person is likeokay can you help me write the
eulogy for like my sister orsomething like that and then
chat gpt goes sure and she shehas some requests for you for
(39:27):
the eulogy And it's like, whatdo you mean she has requests?
And it's like ChatGPT can talkto the dead sister.
Oh, my.
Wait, hold on.
I'm sorry.
This is already a thing?
No, I was going to maybe writethis.
I love that.
Okay, maybe I'll not put it onhere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just write it.
(39:47):
Okay.
Okay.
Anyways.
Do you need a clap?
Oh, yeah.
So basically I wrote this, myfirst short story and I ended up
sharing it with a bunch ofpeople and got great feedback.
And then I submitted it to, um,a journal and I haven't, I
didn't write down which one.
Oh my gosh.
Somebody's reading it right now.
Oh my God.
The Sholly.
(40:08):
Okay.
So there's this mom at school.
Oh, there's a mom at school.
Yeah.
Oh, that's not what an editorfrom a journal.
No, I was going to be soexcited.
Damn it.
No, it was like, like I juststruck up a conversation with
this woman at drop off and Ijust started oversharing about
me and everything I'm doing andall this stuff and she thought
(40:29):
that it was so interesting thatI was writing creative fiction
and she I told her about thisand she said she wanted to read
it and I didn't even know herlike I mean I kind of know her
she's beautiful and she came tomy kids birthday party but I'm
like I'm like, are you sure youwant to read this?
And she's like, yeah, I'm veryinterested.
I was like, it's pretty dark.
(40:50):
And like in it, there's a womanwho's like 55 and she's lusting
after her 25 year old clientthat she's giving therapy to.
And she's thinking all theselike nasty thoughts and stuff.
And I'm like, oh my God, a momfrom my kid's school is going to
read this shit.
Oh yeah.
But it, I think it's the perfectamount because it's, it, it
(41:12):
never, you never dive into the Ithink that's a very realistic.
It's realistic.
It's like sometimes you thinkthings.
I mean, like, 60-year-olds think25-year-olds are hot.
Yeah.
I mean, that's allowed.
It's not like she gets on theground and sucks them off or
something, you know?
Like, I kind of hoped it wentthere, and it didn't.
Oh, my God.
It was like she thought it mighthappen.
(41:32):
She was looking for an earring,and I thought maybe.
Ooh, he's going to put the D inthe B.
And then if Vishal goes thatway, that's on Vishal.
Yes.
Yeah.
It looks like she made notes.
Oh, okay.
Oh, no.
she didn't make notes maybe yeahI think these were notes from so
my dad wrote me a note which wasso sweet he said very twisty I
(41:53):
loved it yeah um he thought thatthe whole story was a dream and
that the lady was gonna wake upfrom the dream and he didn't
realize until the very end thatit was real and he said that
that made it even more shockingwhich was cool um and then my
friend Blair who's also a writershe gave me this tip where I
don't know she said that like abunch of the narration it would
(42:17):
be a fun exercise to try to putthat in scene because I have a
couple of paragraphs where I'mlike I'm a therapist I work here
this and that and the otherClayton's like this and I read
more of showing less tellingyeah you know what Blair you can
go show yourself the door I meanyou could somehow do that you
know like describe her office astandard therapist office you
(42:39):
know yeah that it's night likekind of show that no one's
around show that she readsromance novels from the 1980s
show show somehow that herdaughter is like on this trip so
that would be like her likelooking at her messages and
there's no message from herdaughter like I don't know you
know there's ways but it's ashort story so you kind of
(43:00):
really have to pack it you gottapack it in I think I think it
was great you didn't think itwas like slow at the beginning
with the explaining um I'll haveto read it again to give you an
honest opinion but uh I becauseI read it while I was walking to
go get my kids from school sothank you I I don't feel like it
(43:21):
felt slow although I was excitedonce more action started
happening so maybe that yeahit's not all gonna be like this
right yeah it's hard to win likeas a debut writer if this gets
published somewhere or likesomebody's thinking about
publishing it, it's like,there's not that trust there.
Sure.
(43:41):
Like if Stephen King writes ashort story and the first few
paragraphs are kind of boring,I'm like, I trust that this is
going to pick up and getexciting.
I know that this is, this is amaster, right?
Whereas it's like, Oh, like somerandom person emailed me, wants
to get published.
I read the first couple ofparagraphs.
Where's this going?
I don't know.
I'm going to check anotheremail.
(44:02):
Right.
So I think it's important forlike day Yeah.
I would agree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(44:29):
Yeah.
books that we like just 10novels that we like read the
very first paragraph of them andjust note like put down the
notes of like Generally, thatvery first paragraph either gets
you or doesn't.
And if they're books you like,those are paragraphs that got
(44:50):
you.
And you didn't even really knowthat it was that first
paragraph.
Is that what he said?
Yeah.
So he said that we had to comein with a few first paragraphs.
So I'm going to go back to someof my favorite books and read
the first paragraphs and seewhat I see.
You know, like, what was it thatgrabbed me?
Because generally...
(45:10):
I find that I don't remember thefirst paragraph.
So, like, it's hard, but I must.
I mean, that's clearly a thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, okay, I might be wrongabout this, but I think in Gone
Girl, maybe in the firstparagraph, there's just this
line where Nick, the husband,is, like, looking at the back of
(45:33):
his wife Amy's head and, like,her perfect little bob or
whatever.
Yeah.
And I'll never forget, like,he's like, what is it about the
back of somebody's head thatjust makes you want to...
And it was, like, somethingabout, like, bludgeoning.
But, like, not that word, but,like, it's just, like, the back
of somebody's head.
I think that's, like, to me,that's, like, really powerful
(45:56):
because it's, like, they'recompletely...
Even if they know you're there,like, they don't know what
you're doing right there.
Totally.
Ah, it's so scary.
I've been so jealous of that.
Whatever the line was, just,like, there's something about
the back of someone's head.
Sure, yeah.
It's, like, so evocative.
I think the same thing aboutsleep.
(46:17):
The fact that you're justasleep.
You're just literally layingthere unconscious.
And we all just trust the entireworld to not just, like, come
and do whatever they want in ourpresence.
Like, you're asleep.
I mean, obviously, we're not,like, dead to the world.
But, like, you could be.
You could be just, like, druggedout.
Like, you...
You're just laying thereunconscious.
(46:39):
Oh, my God, yeah.
I had an entire therapy sessionone time about how, like, I'm
very freaked out about whathappens while I'm asleep.
Oh, really?
But it's the same kind of thing.
Like, when you wake up, are youlike, what happened?
No, more like...
Okay, this is going to go extradark for a second.
(46:59):
Okay, okay.
But, like, I have...
I'm not...
Disclaimer.
I am not scared of my husband.
I am not scared of him in anyway, shape, or form.
There's nothing to be afraid of,folks.
There's nothing to be afraid of.
He is a very loving man.
However...
Understatement.
I...
I...
All the time...
Think...
if he wanted to kill me, hecould kill me every single
(47:21):
night.
And I'm going to sleep beforehim, and I have to just trust
that he's not going to go get akitchen knife and decide that
this is it for me.
And we, as women, marry ournatural predators, men, the only
things that consistently killwomen, and we're married to
them, and we live with them, andwe just have to trust that
they're not going to kill us inour sleep.
(47:44):
That's dark and scary and weird,but I think about it all the
time.
It's the back of your head.
Oh, it is.
It is.
It is the back of your head.
It's that same vibe.
And I've thought about thatbefore, too, because, okay, same
with me.
Like, my husband is great andnormal and everything and loves
me and has never...
(48:07):
even physically hurt like anyonelike he's never punched anyone
anyone at a bar like he's justnot violent um but yeah i've
thought about that because it'slike who which woman Right.
I hope so.
Right.
(48:40):
I don't think that they're justdumb, you know, like it's like,
well, also when, you know,obviously I've listened to a few
too many true crime podcasts,but it's always the people that
like, I never saw it coming.
He loved her so much.
I'm like, we are set up for amurder in this house.
Oh, totally.
Cause your husband loves you somuch.
He loves me so much.
No one would ever believe it.
(49:02):
But I'm a real bitch.
I push him to the brink.
I mean, maybe, I don't know.
I don't think so though, but Icould, Okay, this is starting to
scare me.
Okay, we should stop.
We're going back.
Okay, I'll write that.
I will write a short story aboutthat.
I think that that would becathartic.
I'm going to do that.
Okay.
Just a note on that.
So my sister sent me this.
(49:24):
It was just like a quote onInstagram.
It says, be someone whounsettles mediocre men today.
Oh, I like it.
I was like...
I was like, be careful.
He might kill you.
Like, don't unsettle him.
Oh, no.
And my sister's like, that'ssuch an American thing to think.
And I'm like, girl, you betterbe thinking that.
(49:47):
I mean, okay, of course we haveto unsettle.
I mean, I don't even know.
I don't really, I don't evenknow what, what does she mean?
But...
But America is where the mostcrime and hateful men are.
Yeah.
Oh, well, currently, well,there's guns here and there's
not really there.
Um, but guys are just as shittythere too.
(50:08):
If we ever have a male listener,um, Fuck you.
No, I'm just kidding.
That's not what I was expectingyou to say, and I loved it.
Okay.
No, you're great.
Just make sure you keep yourbros in check.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's all.
That's all I want.
That's all.
(50:28):
Okay, I think that maybe...
Okay, so our homework is what?
Well, first we have to keeplistening to and or finish the
book that we've been listeningto.
A Thorn of Grace and Rose.
no graces no graces fairy uhcourt of thorn and roses can i
say a few more things about thisbook sure we have a little time
(50:51):
um So do people know that thisis a Beauty and the Beast
reenactment?
I did not get that, but thatmakes perfect sense, yes.
I've never heard that, but likebeat for beat, it's like the
main girl, she has to leave herfather, her like sad father, and
(51:11):
like go in this place and belocked up.
And like she refuses to eat allthe delicious food.
Like Belle was like that too.
She was.
And yeah, like the wholedelicious food thing.
There's other beats that...
that are just like it um in inthe so i think it's they there
it must be official like theremust be something on the back
(51:32):
copy or like there just must besomething because it's like too
close but it's okay um and thenthe other thing i wanted to say
about this book was okay If youhaven't read it, it is a fantasy
book and there's fairies andmortals and the love interest of
the mortal girl is this dude whoHe can transform into a wolf.
(51:58):
A wolf lion-ish.
A wolf feline body, she says.
And horns?
With horns, right?
Like an elk.
Elk horns, wolf head, felinebody.
Okay.
So what I think is that...
And so he can transform from ahot, muscular dude in a
(52:21):
really...
doesn't he
SPEAKER_01 (52:23):
have like a
SPEAKER_00 (52:24):
buddy mask flirty mask The mask is too much, okay?
What is the mask?
The mask.
It's golden with emerald,emeralds in it.
And I think it's a wolf.
Oh, it's a wolf.
Okay.
But you can see his eyes and hismouth and like his jaw.
I know his friends of Fox.
His friends of Fox.
(52:44):
His friends of Fox.
But like, I clearly, I misreadit, but I've been imagining a
bunny mask.
A bunny mask?
That makes no sense.
SPEAKER_01 (52:57):
It's not hot.
SPEAKER_00 (52:58):
There's no bunnies in this at all.
And he turns into a wolf.
I'm definitely seeing reallylong ears.
That's like some Donnie Darkoshit.
It's very Donnie Darko.
(53:19):
Girl.
to what I was imagining untilright now.
Oh my god.
But you know what I wasthinking?
It would be cool to have aboyfriend that can turn into
like a dog because then wheneveryou want to cuddle, it's like,
honey, can you go into like yourwolf mode so we can snuggle?
Wouldn't that be cute?
(53:40):
You're like scratch behind his,like not for sex, but for like
Scratch behind his ears, hislittle leg goes, you know, it
starts going really fast.
And you have a dog and aboyfriend all in one.
And the other thing is, in thisbook, I never know if he's in
his wolf form or in his guyform, because it'll be like,
(54:01):
I'll think that he's a guy andthey're walking around doing
stuff, but then it'll say thathe like snarls.
Yeah, there's a lot of snarling.
There's a lot of snarling.
And also claws just beneath theskin.
Yeah, so there's claws.
All the time.
And I'm like, where are, is itlike Wolverine?
Cause I'm imagining maybe it'slike Wolverine where they're
just like right at the knuckles,like ready to go.
(54:22):
Okay.
So when, cause whenever theclaws come out, I think he's a
wolf and I'm like, how is he awolf at dinner?
Like why doesn't he just turninto, um, back into the guy?
But I guess maybe the, the clawsare coming out of his man hands.
I think that it's, I think, youknow, bunny mask was clearly
wrong.
However, I think that it's, he'snormally man form, um, like
(54:44):
think Wolverine.
Okay.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
So we're going to keep onreading this book.
It's our first romanticist bookthat either of us have read.
Obviously I'm flying through it.
Um, I thought I was, and thenlook at you chapter 32.
Well, I had to like cut out allthese felt, um, owl feathers
last night and it was justtaking forever.
(55:05):
So I just sort of had it on.
Um, yeah, I don't know.
This may be my one and only everromanticist that I read.
It's not that I don't like itbut I guess I was kind of
thinking could I write in thisgenre like I was almost thinking
like this short story that Iwrote I was like can I make this
romanticist so someone willfucking publish it I'm like
(55:27):
maybe I could make the late theguy like this this 25 year old
guy who's coming in for therapyand he's a little bit scary
maybe when he leaves the officeyou just see like the shoulders
of his shirt like kind of pop upand you you see like these
feathers like at the bottom andyou're like oh he fey and like
all of a sudden you're like inthis like fantasy world a little
(55:48):
bit i know i'm gonna shut thatdown i don't think so it's great
how it is with real humans and ithink too it's like okay this is
something that i actually reallyreally truly believe and i need
to think up like a really goodquote about it so i can quote
myself or just like but the onlything that is setting us apart
(56:10):
from like chat gpt and ai is ourhearts and souls and spirits as
humans i mean chat gpt isn't asgood as it's going to be in
terms of creative writing but itwill get there um and if you
don't write from your heart ifyou don't follow your your
interests and pour your spiritand soul into your artwork then
(56:35):
there's no point in doing itthat's how i truly feel um so
even though sometimes i havethese little ideas like maybe
i'll make something i'm tryingto be commercial or i'm trying
to you know what i'm saying likelike meet the audience where
they're at um I always need tocheck myself on that.
(56:56):
Like, just don't do it.
Like, don't write about fairiesif you don't give a shit about
fairies.
No.
You know, I really, I think thatthere's authors like George R.R.
Martin and all of these peoplewho, they clearly love to create
an entire world.
Like, they don't want to be onEarth.
They want to be in a differentuniverse.
(57:17):
Yes.
And I don't want to be in adifferent universe.
Like, I'm cool with here.
So I think there's just somepeople who whose brains are not
in this realm and like that'swhere they're more comfortable
and like that's good I thinkthat that's like that's a talent
and skill all on its own yeahand totally even when I was the
(57:37):
most imaginative kid at my peakwhich was wild I was a very
imaginative child um I wasalways on earth like there was
no other worldly place for me soI think that that's where I'm
comfortable staying I thinkthat's a good way to look at it
yeah yeah um cool so we're gonnaI love your okay I love your
(58:00):
thing of reading these firstparagraphs of your favorite
books yeah do you think maybenext time I mean we have ideas
for other episodes but maybe wecould share like one or two sure
I think that that would be goodfor people who are listening too
it's like we can talk about whatthey did and why it's so
gripping totally yeah okay solet's do that and then um will
(58:21):
you bring in your writer We cango through that.
We can go through that.
And then we can, the nextepisode, bring in the little
story that we wrote.
Okay.
Yeah.
That sounds great.
So thank you for listening andwe'll be back again soon.
We'll be back.
UNKNOWN (58:42):
Thanks.
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