August 27, 2025 • 48 mins
After a summer hiatus, Kayla and Rachel are back—and ready to get into a new writing flow. Rachel shares her progress on Dinner for Eight, including how she’s realizing her protagonist’s marriage needs more depth (or maybe more dysfunction). Kayla talks about experimenting with feeding her dystopian novel The Woman Tree into ChatGPT for a Save the Cat breakdown—only to discover some hilariously creepy “cry triggers” involving underwear drawers and divorce letters.
The two dive into craft with insights from James A. Hurst’s YouTube channel, exploring the ideas of “the hero’s gift” and “the unity of opposites,” and how these concepts can deepen both conflict and character. They also swap stories about questionable teenage fashion choices, brainstorm writing groups they might join, and get interrupted mid-recording by breaking news about Taylor Swift.
It’s a mix of craft talk, laughter, and candid writing-life updates—plus a teaser for next week’s episode, where Kayla and Rachel face off in their own “unity of opposites”: Kayla’s growing appreciation for AI tools vs. Rachel’s anti-AI stance. Will it end in conflict…or clarity?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Write your heart out.
Hi, I'm Kayla Ogden.
And I'm Rachel Sear.
And this is Write Your HeartOut.
I was going to say it with youand then I got scared.
Guys, we are back.
(00:21):
It's been a little bit of ahiatus.
Yeah.
But, you know, summertime.
Summer is whack for podcasts andbeing productive and all that
stuff.
Oh, yeah.
We tried.
I mean, it's not like we didn'ttry.
We did try.
There was multiple attempts toschedule and multiple fails.
(00:41):
Now things are getting into abit of a flow.
Is your life starting to flow,getting to routine, kids back in
school, all this kind of stuff?
Thank God, yes.
Get those little suckers.
back in school.
I need a schedule.
I don't do well without aschedule.
So yes, I'm ready to roll.
Me too.
I think that we're back toweekly podcasting, aren't you?
(01:02):
Yeah, I think so.
The last time we talked aboutthis, you had completed I think
just your first draft of yournovel.
I did, yes.
And you had taken it to campingwith your in-laws and you had
printed out this little FedExcopy of it and had done some
editing on it so where are we atnow so because I needed to do
(01:24):
the editing by hand to like turnmy brain on correctly for that
so now I'm going back into thedigital version and putting in
my edits into the typing whichis great I think that it's been
very efficient and I've likefound a lot of holes in what I
was writing but the more timeI'm having away from it because
(01:45):
I took I decided I just needed afull-on break so I haven't
worked on it in a few weeks thelonger I'm taking The more I'm
like, oh, maybe I want thisperson to do this.
And I'm realizing that I need alot more background in the
marriage of Sam and her husband,because you're supposed to care
about why they have this likeweird little thing in their
(02:06):
marriage.
But like, you don't know enoughabout them yet to care about why
they have that.
Oh, yeah.
And then, you know, as we'vetalked about this, like sexy ex
comes through the door and it'slike, okay well if her and her
husband suck then why isn't shehopping on that dick but like
(02:27):
okay so now we need to careabout the marriage in order for
you to understand why she hasthis conflict and so I
definitely saw that big loopholeso I spent I haven't worked on
it but I've been really tryingto take notes in my phone of how
can I make it clear how much herand her husband love each other
and even if it's just a hardspot like why that is something
(02:49):
that matters and then And todayyou had or yesterday you had me
listen to this guy that we'll gointo more later.
But he was talking about, youknow, like the hero's power,
like the powers.
That's not what he says.
It's kind of like their powers.
He does say that.
Yeah.
So the video, by the way, it'sby this guy.
He has a YouTube channel calledScreen Write with James A.
(03:11):
Hurst.
And he's a screenwriter.
His videos are really good.
And the one that Rachel's aboutto talk about is called Heroes
That.
gift.
Oh yeah, the gift.
The secret ingredient thatpowers great stories.
And there was another one calledScreenwriter's Secret to
Unstoppable Conflict where hetalks about sort of like a
(03:33):
philosophical theory called theunity of opposites.
So it sounds like when you'vebeen editing well, you just
watched these last night, butare you thinking about what your
character's sort of superpoweris?
Yeah, well sam the maincharacter like i'm like what is
her gift and i i do feel likeshe has some um good qualities
(03:58):
that are like gifts why like umbut then i'm also like the
conflict there's there's someheavy conflict but there needs
to be more context to theconflict which is why i feel
like the marriage kind of has tobe more prominent to so that the
conflict makes more sensebecause otherwise you're just
like oh yeah another shittymarriage like maybe it's time
(04:20):
for her to leave and maybe thisperson showed up at a good time
or whatever right but that's notwhat your story is in your story
you're supposed to want themarriage to prevail maybe at
least you should at least beconflicted about that yeah there
should be some push and pullwith that right and I don't want
it to be a book about marriage Idon't I don't want their
(04:43):
marriage to be the focus so it'slike I have to figure out a
nuanced way to make you care Ihave to save the cat the
marriage the marriage has tosave a cat you know you have to
want the marriage to matter inorder to understand why there's
any of this angst and stuffhappening okay that's a really
good way of putting it whatRachel and I have talked about
before is in the saves the cattemplate if you have a character
(05:07):
that is you know a negativecharacter that you want to
ingratiate to the audience youhave to make them quote unquote
save a cat and you'll see thisall the time in movies just a
character will just go ahead andThere'll be like a little kitten
on the road and this big gruffvillain will like pick it up and
like feed it milk from its palmor whatever.
(05:27):
Literally people do the catthing.
But there's a lot of differentways to do that to show a softer
side to show a side to endear usto that that character so that
our feelings about the storyjust get richer.
And I think what so what you'resaying is like we need to be
endeared to the marriage in someway in this story in order for
(05:49):
us to care.
Right.
And I'm also like toying withthis idea of maybe the marriage
should be terrible.
And so you're voting for her tofuck it up.
(06:11):
You know, like me, like I havetwo kind of versions in my head,
but either way, I have to makethis marriage into something
that is like chewable.
And I'm also like toying withthis idea of maybe the marriage
should be terrible.
so that you want something tohappen to it you know right it's
right now it's just for ihaven't read it but it's just
feeling a little light like it'sjust a symbol you know right
it's like it could mean it couldmean so many different things to
(06:32):
so many different people totallyone okay i people do this to me
all the time when i talk aboutmy story all of a sudden they'll
just come in and whip out like ascene or like a whole ass
storyline for me they'll be likewell what if there's a treasure
in the basement and then shecould do this and she could do
that and you're like shut upthat's not that's no like what
(06:56):
but you're also like no I alwaysjust say oh wow that's a good
idea you have blown my mind I'mgonna go home and really give
that some thought yeah let mejust let me just ruminate on
that one for a while thetreasure yeah treasure that's
what I need like I'll just Ijust tell people what they want
I mean what else you gonna do belike you're stupid yeah I mean
(07:19):
you're a nice person Kayla thisis shit get the fuck out of my
face you're not a writer writeyour own goddamn book what you
think you're a writer now no Imean I don't know I'm not honest
about things when I don't give ashit and I don't want to get
into it you know what I'm sayingof course do I now want to tell
you why I think your treasureidea is stupid and like get into
(07:40):
all that and now hurt yourfeelings and stuff no I want to
move on and yet here I am andI'm about to do it to you oh
okay yes give it to me okay I'llbe very nice okay yeah tell me
that it's just what you neededokay well I think one way you
could if you wanted people tolike the man and like them
(08:01):
together or whatever you couldhave like the kids call and
FaceTime and like you have herand her husband having a cute
moment FaceTiming or maybesomething's happening with the
kids in the hotel room and thenor Sam and her husband have to
break off for a couple beats youknow maybe there's like a scary
(08:22):
wound or something and then theyget to go back to the party and
she's feeling she's seeing aside of him that she finds like
he's taking control like he'she's sexy like how much her kids
love him or something like thatyeah that could make that part
deeper something with the kidsyeah but that would be this more
the side of liking the marriageand seeing the good things in it
(08:45):
but them having a really shittymarriage would be interesting
yeah but it'd be like Going fromshit to shit.
Yeah.
Sometimes in life we do.
Like maybe Sam just doesn't knowhow to pick them.
Which is very possible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I will take that note andI'll think about it.
Yeah.
Are you going to go write it?
We got to stop podcasting so youcan write that?
(09:06):
Yeah, I should go.
I could write it and then youcould just slip it in.
Oh, perfect.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, hold on.
We need to go back to that guy.
But before we do that, I want tohear about what you've been
working on and you said me yourupdated the woman tree but i was
not able to read it last night iwish i could have but i okay
(09:26):
that's actually good um i tooksome time off during the summer
too after i had talked to rachelabout you know getting in my
head too much i switched theprotagonist from a male to a
female and then back to a maleand now all of my files like
when i went back to it the otherday to start writing again all
(09:47):
of my files were in some stateof weird like 80 disarray where
like half of one it was a womanthe protagonist and then it's
like I got confused with myfiles and then half and half is
a woman and a man and it's likewhat did I do basically what
I've done is I created a plotand the characters that are in
(10:11):
it and certain things that weregoing to happen and then I fed
it into chat GPT oh baby uh huhand And I asked ChatGPT to game
out my plot in a saves the catway.
It was like no prob.
And it just was like boom, boom,boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
(10:31):
And it made my plot a saves thecat plot.
Interesting.
And it wasn't very good.
Well, of course.
It doesn't know how to write abook.
I mean, it does know how towrite a book, but like not with
heart or soul.
No, no, not with heart or soul.
Like, first of all, I said toChatGPT, is it okay?
okay that I'm getting you to dothis or is it not okay is it
(10:56):
still considered my writing andChatGPT was like go for it girl
like it's fine actually ChatGPTwas like you know publishers and
editors and agents now expectwriters to use large language
models like ChatGPT like AI toas tools like to help them in
(11:19):
their You know, is it fair thatwe have word processors?
Is it fair that we have spellcheck and grammar check?
Is it fair?
Like, if you get somebody tohelp you plot out your novel,
it's still your novel, but thisjust happens to be like ChatGPT.
And also ChatGPT did a wayshittier job than I think a
person would have done.
(11:40):
But they did it in like onemillionth of time that it would
take for a person to do,including myself.
But I liked how it did stillhelp.
Yeah, share one, share one.
(12:19):
With that heart and soul.
(12:49):
where all the women have diedand the protagonist is a young
man who is working on a sheepfarm that has been in his family
for generations.
I have a whole plot that Iwrote.
I put it into ChatGPT.
It divided it up into a savesthe cat type of template.
And so the first chapter is theopening image, which is
(13:13):
something that saves the catsays to do where you just you
show life as normal.
So you go everything this is howlife is for my character before
the inciting incident fucks itall up and so what chat GPT gave
me was and this is not somethingthat I wrote Perry is on the
(13:33):
farm tending sheep in silenceand he looks in the drawer and
he sees the women's underwearit's like a shrine of grief
because they are no longer withus the crying trigger is is that
Perry sets out two extra platesat the table out of habit for
(13:56):
his mother and his sister.
Then he quietly puts them back.
So we're supposed to believethat this guy, mother and sister
have been dead for 13 months,accidentally is setting out
plates for them on the table.
But then he realizes, oh, right,they're dead.
He also has a shrine of theirunderwear.
And then we're supposed to cry.
(14:17):
Like mommy's undies.
Ah! Like, why would he belooking in their underwear
drawers?
Yeah, he's making Perry a realcreep.
I mean, he's a good old chatty.
Yes.
Okay, so this is another.
So then in the next chapter,it's the theme is stated.
And it's the setup.
(14:38):
So this is how you're supposedto do it.
As I said, in Save the Cat,that's the next beat is stating
the theme and somebody issupposed to state the theme of
the whole book to yourcharacter.
And it's usually not a anothermain character it'll just be
sort of like an aside um and sochat gpt wrote my neighbor
muttering the theme and it isthe theme so i'm not gonna say
(15:01):
it which actually that was goodthat's helpful for me because
i'm like oh okay like howsomebody should say the theme to
him and i did end up writingthat but i wrote it in like a
way creepier like cooler yeahbut it was nice to have this
laid out like oh that couldhappen in in chapter two i ended
up having my theme stated inchapter one so far but it's just
(15:22):
nice to see this laid out likethis and it makes me see what I
don't want to do because youknow if you see something done
poorly sometimes it goes oh thatwould have been so much better
if this yeah absolutely onething this is one thing that I
think is also stupid that thisis the cry trigger that Chad GPT
wrote for chapter two is thatPerry re-reads his father's
(15:43):
divorce letter which is stuffedin a drawer and the cry trigger
is that he traces his father'ssignature within Wow.
That's going to make you cry,Rachel.
Yeah.
Perry's got to stay out of thosedrawers.
Perry is this really sad man.
Like, I mean, in the story, heis a sad man, but he's not just
(16:06):
like roaming his house weeping.
Right.
And looking at underwear andlooking at old letters and
putting like he's not like hedoesn't have Alzheimer's or he's
not delusional where he doesn'tknow that people are dead.
Like being a sad man.
And then being a mopey man.
Very different.
Yeah.
Mopey.
He's not.
No, he's not a mopey man.
I sort of, I sort of want toread all the cry triggers.
(16:28):
This is really funny.
I mean, I want to hear the crytriggers.
So on chapter three, the setupis continued.
And the cry trigger is that afleeting memory of his lover's
laugh cuts through the silence.
So I don't know why.
Oh, no.
You know what I just realized?
Okay.
(16:48):
I love the name Perry.
for a guy and for my protagonistbut i just realized that i've
been listening to this song inthe car and it's a kid's song
from the soundtrack of phineasand ferb which is like a little
disney cartoon show that my kidslove and there's somebody in
that show called perry theplatypus yeah i was just about
(17:10):
to say the platypus fuck doeseverybody know that no don't
worry about that i love the nameperry i like when i hear perry
i'm like imagining these theseset of twins that I went to,
like, not preschool,kindergarten through third grade
with, Zeki and Perry.
And they were, like, the cutesttwins ever.
And they were boys?
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
So no one's going to think ofPerry the platypus.
(17:31):
No.
Well, I mean, unless you're,like, gearing towards Gen Z
people and younger.
Oh, right, right, right.
Because the parents don'tnecessarily know.
No, I don't think so.
Yeah, no, not Gen Z and younger.
Yeah.
Okay, wow.
Crisis of verdicts.
I don't want to think of adifferent name.
I mean, I've seen a good amountof Phineas and Ferb and it
(17:52):
didn't even cross my mind ohreally you've watched it well
unfortunately I mean no I meanit's a great show great show one
thing the chat GPT keeps onmaking these like really crazy
like coincidences like Perrygoes into Lord City this is like
(18:12):
a dystopian novel it's like thecity and the where we're
supposed to cry in that not inthat chapter is in a shop window
a doll wears the exact sameyellow dress that was always his
sister's favorite oh wow I don'tknow I mean I guess that could
be okay I'm not sure but it'slike do you know your sister's
(18:37):
favorite dress no but I do knowlike there are certain things
that she has had um that Iremember for example when we
went to Mexico when we weretweens with my mom she bought a
silver necklace with like a dropof a triangle drop of turquoise
(19:01):
and she wore it and I it's soher or it was so her and I
always envied it and wanted itso like something could be
something I'm like if mybrothers died and I saw in a
shop window what would it bethat like this shirt their
beanie or like you would nevernotice I mean but I guess I mean
(19:24):
there's maybe from when theywere teenagers they had a
certain cool thing they worelike that kind of stuff I think
makes more of an impression thanI guess I mean maybe I'm just I
can't think of anything yeahmaybe if they had been sisters
and they've been wearing coolclothes it might have made more
(19:45):
of an impact maybe that'spossible girls Yeah, I suppose
that would make sense.
There was a point in time wheremy little brother wore like,
this sounds ridiculous andsorry, Davey, for calling this
out.
But like he had like a littlerope that he had around like
(20:06):
with a mason jar that he wouldwear around his neck and he like
had a beverage in there all thetime.
Did it have a lid on it?
I feel like it did.
And it was usually some sort oflike jam.
juice because he was like in hishardcore like vegan hippie phase
and I mean if there was a dollwith a juice jar that would make
(20:31):
me think of him I don't knowI've never seen that anywhere
like I've never seen a hippiewearing a juice like a mason jar
around his neck with a rope itwas very distinct to him I think
yeah could he pull it off it wasa rough phase yeah yeah Did he
have like little juice splotcheson his shirt?
(20:52):
Probably.
Probably right where the rimhits the belly.
I don't remember.
It's like there's a reason whypeople don't do that.
Yeah.
I mean, he was so young.
You know, he was like probably19.
We all make questionable choiceswhen we're 19, right?
I looked like shit for betweenthe ages of like 13 and 23 that
(21:14):
decade.
Oh, my God.
I was making a lot of badchoices, guys.
Me too.
I know you were because you toldme that you used to just wear
overalls and walk around withbare feet.
No shoes on.
Yeah.
Like, walk around where?
Anywhere.
I would walk miles.
I would walk from my parents'house downtown, go out to food.
(21:36):
Like, I had no qualms with goinginto a store or a restaurant
with no shoes on.
Nobody cares?
I went to school with no shoeson.
Whoa.
And I had, like, three favoriteshirts, and I would just, like,
alternate them under theseoveralls.
But I only wore them Monday,Wednesdays, and Fridays because
I thought that maybe no onewould catch on.
It was bad.
It was bad.
(21:56):
You thought no one would knowyou were wearing the same
overalls all the time if youspaced it out.
Or the same three shirts.
I won't be overall girl if Isometimes wear something else.
I was definitely weird.
I was a weird teenager.
That's good.
And I think about it now andlike if I saw me like if I
(22:18):
currently as an almost 40 yearold woman saw walking around as
obnoxious as I was, oh, God, Iwould be like, ugh, that child
should be reprimanded.
Keep them at home.
Change their clothes.
I mean, I was told, and in myparents' defense, they were
(22:38):
like, you should probably wearshoes.
And I was like, I don't care.
All right, anyway, back onsubject.
Keep going.
Give us one more cry trigger.
Okay, let me see.
At one point, his lover saysthey're barely conscious after
being beaten oh no which is notwas not a part of the plot that
(23:00):
i gave it so it came up withthis woman getting beaten half
to death so thanks for that chatgbt um and she's barely
conscious and she whispers seeme and then perry says back i do
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
oh
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
and then we're sort of trans yeah ChatGPT is doing
some heavy lifting here wantingPerry to his story arc to be
about you know seeing thistransgender person for who she
(23:36):
truly is so I mean ChatGPT isdoing some stuff but I don't
know if I'm gonna beat a transperson half to death in my book
well that's probably a good ideayeah I mean let them live anyway
I had that I had it do thatwhich is really interesting it
was really interesting to feedmy plot in and then have it
(23:57):
carved out by chat GPT into allthe beats yeah and then just be
able to write from there withinthat I'm totally free and I'm
not gonna use any of the weirdstuff that it just like gave me
but it really gets my mind goingto be able to like critique what
it's done just to have a pointof reference for when I'm
(24:17):
writing like okay I sort ofwrite wrote that part I say to
the theme now what's the nextpart I'm supposed to do this is
how he suggested I do it but I'drather do it this way or it
makes more sense to do it thisway so this is like a really
good way for me to work yeahtoday I was listening to an
episode of the podcast the shitno one tells you about writing
(24:38):
have you listened to it no okayit's really good it's really
good especially once you'regetting into like the querying
phase but it was talking to adebut author and she was talking
about her path to publicationand And the way that she did it
was she wasn't done her novelyet, but she was kind of getting
(24:58):
close and she started gettinginto contact sort of like you
and I were trying to do before.
She did a lot of the ones thatare like the first five pages of
your novel.
Yeah.
And she did big ones because shewanted something in her query
letter where she could have aline that said the first five
pages of this work were longlisted for this prize and
shortlisted for this prize andwon this prize.
(25:20):
Yeah.
Right.
So then that would really gether some attention.
She ended up getting, yeah, longlisted and shortlisted for these
prizes.
And she even won one at one ofthe prizes.
One of the judges was an agentwho was interested in her.
Cool.
So that really makes me want to,you know, whenever I feel like I
(25:45):
have the first five pages down,even if I haven't completed the
work, I want to just startsending it.
Sure.
Oh, yeah.
I think I did that with my lastnovel.
But yeah, I haven't heard backfrom a lot of those contests.
No, me neither.
But I think that they had somepretty long wait times.
I think that that was prettystandard for it.
(26:06):
Like one of the contests that Isubmitted to, I can't remember
which one it was.
It said October.
You had to wait till October.
Yes.
Yeah.
And the Novelry Prize, that bigone, the big story idea prize
where you win$100,000 and whatnot.
That one, I think at the end ofSeptember, they're going to
(26:26):
give, you know, like the longlist or whatever.
And then I think people aregoing to vote.
So it's like public votes.
But they got 22,000 applicants.
Did you know that?
Dang, no, I did not know that.
22,000.
Well, look at it standing out inthere, hopefully.
Yeah.
Well, then now because theNovelry put on this big contest
(26:50):
and they got so many people'slike information who you know
have these books that supposedlythey want to finish they're like
you know leveraging that one ofthe things that they have they
have a new like little courseout there where it's like finish
your book by the end yes I'mabout to bring that up yeah yeah
so the novelry has sort of acourse out called like finish
(27:11):
your book by Christmas I thinkwhich I thought about joining
yeah are you gonna do it wellnow that now that I'm saying
this out loud it sounds reallystupid but I was like well I
don't really want to join it ifI'm going to win this big
contest and they're going togive me a free one anyways or
what if they like mine but thenthey see that I've already given
(27:32):
them money and they're like ohwell we might as well give this
to somebody who I think that youthink that they're thinking
about it too much I think it'ssuch a pie in the sky idea that
I would even get noticed and Ishould just continue life as
usual I think that if you'reinterested in this other course
and the 90 day book writingthing like do it like period
(27:55):
there's like there's no if I dothis then that like all of it's
good writing practice at the atthe core yeah at the very base
level and so what if yeah Ithink like I'd like to be
involved in something wherethere's some accountability
there's some structure yeahthere's some people but I think
(28:16):
it would be nice if it were inperson yeah it seems like nobody
wants to do anything in personNo, I need in person.
(28:50):
first five weeks of class likethat that sounded really shitty
to me and my own my personalitydoes not jive with that like if
I'm going to miss that muchschool I'd rather just start
when I can be there fully Idropped all the classes I'm
going to start again in thespring and that'll be that okay
can people start in the winteror it's just no it's fall
(29:11):
semester spring semester orsummer semester start spring
semester and I might just be aspring chicken at school you
know yeah the one thing I'mbummed about is that I can't be
in the creative writing club ifI'm not taking a class and I
don't think so because I thinkyou have to be an enrolled
student I mean I couldpotentially just show up on
campus and see what happens I'mfriends with them you know like
(29:34):
because a lot of them were in myclass before I don't think
they'd like kick me out but alsoI do think that the students who
are there actively enrolled inthese classes should take
priority time in this limitedtime of the club you know right
I mean I want them to feel likethey get to value each other and
that it's not just like somewoman coming in and be like,
(29:55):
read my shit.
Like for funsies.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I respect all of them as writersin general.
They're all like such goodpeople and talented.
And so I want them to make surethat they know I respect their
time.
Okay.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
I want to be a part of a writinggroup.
(30:15):
My son's teacher this year doesplaywriting.
But he said that he was part ofa really active group in the
South Bay, like closer to Ithink closer to San Jose.
They meet all the time and, youknow, they're really involved in
each other's writing and stuff.
And he's really great.
(30:36):
Yeah.
So I'm like, oh, maybe I couldlike get in on playwriting.
It's a playwriting group or justa writing group?
Just a writing group.
OK, that's cool.
Yes.
I would love to be a part of awriting group.
Should we see if maybe thatone's OK?
Yeah.
Or yeah, I would love to.
I feel like that would be reallygood for me to have like other
points of view and hear whatother people are working on yeah
(30:57):
um just to keep it like fresh inmy head and all you know just
yeah i just i also just wantpeople in my life who are a part
of the literary community insome way shape or form yeah even
if they're part of the literarycommunity is just coming to this
club and that's what we'rebuilding sure whatever it is
(31:17):
just something um oh i'm sorrymy my email just the New York
Times just said breaking newsTaylor Swift and Travis Kelsey
announced their engagement oh mygod it popped up in the right
hand corner of my screen thatwe're recording on and I was
like when you were talking aboutone of your cry triggers and I
was like oh inappropriate timingcongratulations to Taylor Swift
(31:39):
and Travis Kelsey oh should wetag them when we post this
episode oh my gosh yes we'll geta bunch of Swifties in here good
for them good for hey way to goshe found her person anyways I
don't really want to start acreative writing group because I
don't want the responsibility ofeverybody sitting down and
(32:02):
looking at me like where do westart I 100% I want to join a
group yeah I want to join agroup yeah I've never been a
part of one before so if you'reout here and you live in the San
Mateo County and you are in awriting group and you like us
please invite us please inviteus but I'm going to ask my son's
(32:23):
teacher what this group is andif Rachel and I can go.
And if we do go, we will reportback.
Yes.
Okay.
So playwriting, I haveabsolutely no interest in.
No offense to me.
No, me neither.
I am, as we've talked about,super interested in
screenwriting.
I think my next project, whenI'm ready to move on from Dinner
(32:45):
for Eight, is going to be ascreenwriting project.
I don't know what I'm doing.
I've been doing a little liketrying to find like how a
screenplay is written out, likehow all that works.
And I have a really interestingconcept idea.
I'm kind of excited about thatidea, but it definitely isn't a
book.
(33:06):
Like I feel like it should justbe a screenplay.
Okay.
You know you could feed yourcurrent work into ChatGPT and
ask it to reformat it into ascreenplay.
We'll have to do a whole episodeabout it.
I am so anti-AI.
Okay.
Okay, cool.
So you know what this is?
(33:27):
You know what this is?
The YouTube channel Screen Writewith James A.
Hurst.
One of the videos that wewatched that we were talking
about today was about the unityof opposites.
He was saying this is how youcreate unstoppable conflict in
your book is by creating twocharacters who are opposites in
(33:49):
like a bunch of different ways.
They're maybe stuck together,but they like need something
from each other, but they'retotally opposite.
(34:20):
we gotta kill you know like andhow they're trapped together
yeah they need each other yeahbut even his example of the
Sopranos where it's like aconflict of character but all
within himself of like he wantsto be a good person but he's you
know has to be a mob boss andlike all of his examples in this
(34:42):
were fantastic they werefantastic he also did Parasite
which is one of my favoritemovies and that was the
opposites were class.
So you have the upper classpeople and the lower class
family.
They need each other.
Everything about the way thatthey live and what they need is
(35:03):
opposite.
And that creates like so muchtension.
Yeah.
I haven't seen Parasite, butafter watching this
informational video that theHearst one, I was like, oh, I
got to see that.
I knew I needed to see it.
I mean, it won a frickin Oscar.
Like I knew I know it's on mylist.
but I know I'm like I reallygotta watch it's amazing um but
(35:24):
what I was gonna say was for usfor this podcast maybe our
opposites that will create abunch of conflict that will be
really interesting for ouraudience is that you hate AI and
I'm coming around to using ityeah you my with my work I I
mean in the few times that we'veum you know we've used it we've
(35:47):
used it like we're no no I'mlike can't pretend like i don't
use it but um the it's sohelpful and it is you know like
it is incredible there's nodenying what it's what it can
bring to the table but yeah ifeel like we should do a whole
episode on our opposites in thisour conflict do you want to do
that next time i think we shoulddo that next time okay so next
(36:09):
time guys kayla and rachel havea very heated debate will the
podcast be able to make it willwe survive or will they burn it
all down in the process oh welllet's burn it down outside of my
closet okay okay yeah i meanthat sounds really good okay so
(36:31):
conflict and obviously we haveour next episode but the other
video was the hero's um gift yesand that was also really cool
and i know i touched on thatgently at the beginning of the
episode but i love that too it'sa gift that your character has
some of the really odd obviousones are 11 from stranger
(36:52):
things, like how she uses hergift and how she has to hide her
gift, um, and how the gift makessense within her world.
But then there's ones that are,you know, if you're just writing
a drama or something or justfiction, but it's very
realistic, there's nothingspeculative or sci-fi about it.
Uh, you could think of the goodplace.
(37:13):
So what's Kristen Bell'scharacter called?
Do you know?
Oh God, I was literally watchingit last night when I was going
to bed.
Um, So Kristen Bell in The GoodPlace.
So the writing is so good inthis show and the dialogue,
especially her character.
Her gift is her.
What is this like her snarky?
(37:34):
She's very intuitive.
She like catches on to peoplereally easily.
And she's she's very snarky.
She's very edgy.
Yeah.
Eleanor.
Eleanor.
So I'm trying to think of whathe he he put it so well.
He did.
But it was basically that shecan read people.
and that she understandspeople's inner workings really
easily.
It was her intuition, basically.
(37:56):
And then, oh, I hated how he wastalking about Paddington Bear
because Paddington Bear couldnot be more like just, it's like
nails on a chalkboard for me.
I agree.
But Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.
I liked that one because it waslike her naivete that it was a
gift.
Yeah, her unstoppable optimism.
Yeah.
That's what makes herunbreakable.
(38:18):
But then there's like, you know,the Star Wars It's like Luke
probably has the...
Oh, yeah.
He really jerked it to StarWars.
He loved it.
I mean...
Actually, I didn't...
I guess I didn't watch thiswhole thing, but Star Wars, it's
like, what's his gift?
It's the Force.
The Force.
And, like, in his example, he,like, really loves Star Wars,
clearly.
You know, it's obviously theForce, but then it's also this
conflict inside of him and howhe uses it to change who he is.
(38:42):
And Luke's a gift, pretty much,is what he...
Luke is a gift to mankind.
Yeah, so in your...
dinner for eight do you thinkthat any of the characters maybe
Sam does she have a gift thathelps her I do think that her
type anus is actually the giftfor her in that book it's it's
(39:04):
so wildly like God girl unclenchand it serves her really well
and then I think there's alsothis gift of when she realizes
like that she doesn't need thatanymore and she like stuff
happens but okay yeah yeah Iwondering for my character Perry
this book for him in the womantree it's sort of like
(39:27):
institutionalized I think wouldbe the save the cat genre and so
that would be like a KatnissEverdeen kind of thing from the
Hunger Games or Winston in 1984so I'm like what is his special
gift going to be I think theidea is that you know everybody
(39:48):
in the country Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
(40:19):
things happen to you.
How can he move on when he'slooking at his mommy's panties
every day?
So I think that but I think thatthat's going to really come in
handy for him because he'sholding on to his grief.
He also has very, you know,strong, vivid memories of
(40:42):
everything that happened.
And he's going to hold people toaccount.
Yeah.
Right.
He's he he isn't able to justmove on and pretend that like
nothing happened like everyoneelse.
And maybe that will be hissuperpower.
Oh, I think so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (41:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
It's not as, I don't know.
It's not the force.
Is that what you're worriedabout?
No, no, it's not going to be theforce.
No.
He's not going to be like super,I don't like superhero stuff.
He's not going to be super inany way.
But I think that that's thebeauty of this list was like
Kimmy Schmidt doesn't have asuperpower.
It's just she's like been in afreaking dungeon for however
(41:21):
many years and now she has adifferent outlook on life.
Yes.
And so like the differentoutlook on life is the gift,
right?
I think I really want him tohave a gift.
Yeah.
But obviously when it comes to,you know, Star Wars or The
Matrix, these people's gifts arejust very front and center.
Whereas with the unbreakableKimmy Schmidt or The Good Place
(41:43):
or Fleabag.
Paddington.
Okay, if anybody's wondering,Paddington's gift is his...
Optimism.
His optimism.
No, no, his empathy.
No, no, his charitability.
Oh, right, that was it.
He gives and gives and gives.
Right, and he sees the best inpeople.
people.
Jesus Christ.
(42:04):
Do you hate marmalade?
Yeah, I don't.
I don't think I'm about iteither.
Yeah, no, no, I don't like it.
I don't like jam in general.
Really?
You don't like jam, girl?
Not even preserves?
If I'm going to do it, it'sdefinitely got to be preserves,
but no, I don't want it.
Anything sweet and sticky, notinto it.
Not into it.
I don't like milkshakes.
(42:25):
I don't like ice cream.
I don't like syrup.
Keep it away from me.
If it's sweet and sticky I don'twant it anywhere near me oh my
word I can see the look on yourface that look of just like
disgust oh it's literally I havea visceral reaction it's like
but you're and you're a bakerand you make really good
cinnamon buns yes those aresticky I know but I don't yeah I
(42:48):
don't really eat them yeah Imake them and I and it's very
specific I have to wash my handslike my spatula cannot have
sticky stuff on it it's I meanobviously I would wash my hands
regardless but yeah it's anissue when there's frosting on
(43:09):
my spatula if it gets in myhands dislike dislike I'm
pushing my dislike button ohokay so so I think I am actually
gonna look into what my what myprotagonist power is yes and I
want to see how I can infuse thebook with some some opposites
(43:30):
yeah I Harry is going to have aperson who kind of comes
alongside him and I should makethem opposites.
We've talked before about TheLast of Us and they have this
like happy and grumpy oppositionthing going on.
And I always love that.
I love because the grumpy personis kind of like the straight man
for the happy person.
(43:50):
So I can really make like thejokes go.
I feel like it's just like areally winning combination.
It is.
And then there's always like apivotal moment where the grumpy
person sees the the happy personhave to be hard or and then it
like wakes them up a little bitand it's always like this and
then they try to be happy rightfor the happy person which is
(44:12):
like so true to life you knowlike when you see someone have
to break their spirit and youknow in whatever capacity that
is and it's like oh my god yougot broken you know whether it's
in a good way or a bad way it'slike a oh my god yeah especially
when it's like a happy person
SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
yeah who has to like be sad
SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
yeah Yeah.
All right.
Okay.
So that's what I think I'm goingto do.
I'm also going to look into thiswriting group that David had
mentioned.
I don't want to bug him toomuch, but I'm just going to
fucking bug him.
Yeah.
Bug him.
We get to know.
Yeah.
Or look into other ones orsomething.
You know, you don't want to do,you can't commit to whole
(44:52):
courses and stuff, but I'm sureyou can go to events this fall
or go to meetings here and thereand that kind of Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, I have enough time to dothat.
I just I can't miss five weeksof school and then be like, here
I am.
I'm going to I can't resolve toget a bad grade knowingly.
Like there's there is only acertain amount of classes you
(45:13):
can get before you lose wholeletters in your grade.
I'm not the teenager I once waswhere a C is not going to bother
me.
Like, I definitely don't.
It's going to bother you.
It's going to bother me.
Yeah.
And I also don't want to be theone who's like, oh, what'd you
guys talk about two weeks ago?
You know, like, I don't know.
If you're going to do it, youwant to do it well.
Yeah.
Okay, great.
Um, so what are you going to do?
(46:00):
I think it'd be reallyinteresting in spring semester
when I do take the screenwritingclass if I have kind of like a
one that I've done or attemptedto like bring to the table and
see how I did.
Like, I'm kind of curious as tohow that would go.
Yeah.
To have something that you'vealready put together.
That would be great.
Yeah.
And actually, well, I'll figureout a way to like bring up my
(46:23):
idea for this screenplay in thenext episode because it's AI
related.
Chat GPT has has a place in itoh okay but you don't want to
tell people about it well bynext episode I'll figure out how
to tell people about it becauseright now it's still a little
bit too fresh and I don't wantto be like here's this little
egg let's you know like I don'tI'm not ready to share my egg
(46:45):
not ready no okay yep the eggsall right we gotta have an egg
metaphor somewhere in theepisode from the lady with the
chickens okay thank you guys forwaiting for us yeah thank you
and listening to all theepisodes if you have a sec and
you like our podcast and youlike sort of hanging out with us
(47:06):
if you could give us a fivestars on whatever you're
listening on that would be sovery cool yes and make sure
you're following us on Instagramyes and share it if you guys you
know feel so inclined pleaseshare it with friends because we
would love to get a little bitmore going yeah Instagram share
it with friends give us a ratinggo to our website and submit
(47:27):
something oh yeah yeah submityour short story for story time
yeah anything we would reallyreally love to share your stuff
and if you don't want your voicejust write it in and we will
read it um it's fun to hear yourstuff yeah do it and we want to
we just want to hear from you ingeneral like say anything okay
we do we want to hear okay uhwe'll see you next week okay bye
Write your heart out.
Hi, I'm Kayla Ogden.
And I'm Rachel Sear.
And this is Write Your HeartOut.
I was going to say it with youand then I got scared.
Guys, we are back.
(00:21):
It's been a little bit of ahiatus.
Yeah.
But, you know, summertime.
Summer is whack for podcasts andbeing productive and all that
stuff.
Oh, yeah.
We tried.
I mean, it's not like we didn'ttry.
We did try.
There was multiple attempts toschedule and multiple fails.
(00:41):
Now things are getting into abit of a flow.
Is your life starting to flow,getting to routine, kids back in
school, all this kind of stuff?
Thank God, yes.
Get those little suckers.
back in school.
I need a schedule.
I don't do well without aschedule.
So yes, I'm ready to roll.
Me too.
I think that we're back toweekly podcasting, aren't you?
(01:02):
Yeah, I think so.
The last time we talked aboutthis, you had completed I think
just your first draft of yournovel.
I did, yes.
And you had taken it to campingwith your in-laws and you had
printed out this little FedExcopy of it and had done some
editing on it so where are we atnow so because I needed to do
(01:24):
the editing by hand to like turnmy brain on correctly for that
so now I'm going back into thedigital version and putting in
my edits into the typing whichis great I think that it's been
very efficient and I've likefound a lot of holes in what I
was writing but the more timeI'm having away from it because
(01:45):
I took I decided I just needed afull-on break so I haven't
worked on it in a few weeks thelonger I'm taking The more I'm
like, oh, maybe I want thisperson to do this.
And I'm realizing that I need alot more background in the
marriage of Sam and her husband,because you're supposed to care
about why they have this likeweird little thing in their
(02:06):
marriage.
But like, you don't know enoughabout them yet to care about why
they have that.
Oh, yeah.
And then, you know, as we'vetalked about this, like sexy ex
comes through the door and it'slike, okay well if her and her
husband suck then why isn't shehopping on that dick but like
(02:27):
okay so now we need to careabout the marriage in order for
you to understand why she hasthis conflict and so I
definitely saw that big loopholeso I spent I haven't worked on
it but I've been really tryingto take notes in my phone of how
can I make it clear how much herand her husband love each other
and even if it's just a hardspot like why that is something
(02:49):
that matters and then And todayyou had or yesterday you had me
listen to this guy that we'll gointo more later.
But he was talking about, youknow, like the hero's power,
like the powers.
That's not what he says.
It's kind of like their powers.
He does say that.
Yeah.
So the video, by the way, it'sby this guy.
He has a YouTube channel calledScreen Write with James A.
(03:11):
Hurst.
And he's a screenwriter.
His videos are really good.
And the one that Rachel's aboutto talk about is called Heroes
That.
gift.
Oh yeah, the gift.
The secret ingredient thatpowers great stories.
And there was another one calledScreenwriter's Secret to
Unstoppable Conflict where hetalks about sort of like a
(03:33):
philosophical theory called theunity of opposites.
So it sounds like when you'vebeen editing well, you just
watched these last night, butare you thinking about what your
character's sort of superpoweris?
Yeah, well sam the maincharacter like i'm like what is
her gift and i i do feel likeshe has some um good qualities
(03:58):
that are like gifts why like umbut then i'm also like the
conflict there's there's someheavy conflict but there needs
to be more context to theconflict which is why i feel
like the marriage kind of has tobe more prominent to so that the
conflict makes more sensebecause otherwise you're just
like oh yeah another shittymarriage like maybe it's time
(04:20):
for her to leave and maybe thisperson showed up at a good time
or whatever right but that's notwhat your story is in your story
you're supposed to want themarriage to prevail maybe at
least you should at least beconflicted about that yeah there
should be some push and pullwith that right and I don't want
it to be a book about marriage Idon't I don't want their
(04:43):
marriage to be the focus so it'slike I have to figure out a
nuanced way to make you care Ihave to save the cat the
marriage the marriage has tosave a cat you know you have to
want the marriage to matter inorder to understand why there's
any of this angst and stuffhappening okay that's a really
good way of putting it whatRachel and I have talked about
before is in the saves the cattemplate if you have a character
(05:07):
that is you know a negativecharacter that you want to
ingratiate to the audience youhave to make them quote unquote
save a cat and you'll see thisall the time in movies just a
character will just go ahead andThere'll be like a little kitten
on the road and this big gruffvillain will like pick it up and
like feed it milk from its palmor whatever.
(05:27):
Literally people do the catthing.
But there's a lot of differentways to do that to show a softer
side to show a side to endear usto that that character so that
our feelings about the storyjust get richer.
And I think what so what you'resaying is like we need to be
endeared to the marriage in someway in this story in order for
(05:49):
us to care.
Right.
And I'm also like toying withthis idea of maybe the marriage
should be terrible.
And so you're voting for her tofuck it up.
(06:11):
You know, like me, like I havetwo kind of versions in my head,
but either way, I have to makethis marriage into something
that is like chewable.
And I'm also like toying withthis idea of maybe the marriage
should be terrible.
so that you want something tohappen to it you know right it's
right now it's just for ihaven't read it but it's just
feeling a little light like it'sjust a symbol you know right
it's like it could mean it couldmean so many different things to
(06:32):
so many different people totallyone okay i people do this to me
all the time when i talk aboutmy story all of a sudden they'll
just come in and whip out like ascene or like a whole ass
storyline for me they'll be likewell what if there's a treasure
in the basement and then shecould do this and she could do
that and you're like shut upthat's not that's no like what
(06:56):
but you're also like no I alwaysjust say oh wow that's a good
idea you have blown my mind I'mgonna go home and really give
that some thought yeah let mejust let me just ruminate on
that one for a while thetreasure yeah treasure that's
what I need like I'll just Ijust tell people what they want
I mean what else you gonna do belike you're stupid yeah I mean
(07:19):
you're a nice person Kayla thisis shit get the fuck out of my
face you're not a writer writeyour own goddamn book what you
think you're a writer now no Imean I don't know I'm not honest
about things when I don't give ashit and I don't want to get
into it you know what I'm sayingof course do I now want to tell
you why I think your treasureidea is stupid and like get into
(07:40):
all that and now hurt yourfeelings and stuff no I want to
move on and yet here I am andI'm about to do it to you oh
okay yes give it to me okay I'llbe very nice okay yeah tell me
that it's just what you neededokay well I think one way you
could if you wanted people tolike the man and like them
(08:01):
together or whatever you couldhave like the kids call and
FaceTime and like you have herand her husband having a cute
moment FaceTiming or maybesomething's happening with the
kids in the hotel room and thenor Sam and her husband have to
break off for a couple beats youknow maybe there's like a scary
(08:22):
wound or something and then theyget to go back to the party and
she's feeling she's seeing aside of him that she finds like
he's taking control like he'she's sexy like how much her kids
love him or something like thatyeah that could make that part
deeper something with the kidsyeah but that would be this more
the side of liking the marriageand seeing the good things in it
(08:45):
but them having a really shittymarriage would be interesting
yeah but it'd be like Going fromshit to shit.
Yeah.
Sometimes in life we do.
Like maybe Sam just doesn't knowhow to pick them.
Which is very possible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I will take that note andI'll think about it.
Yeah.
Are you going to go write it?
We got to stop podcasting so youcan write that?
(09:06):
Yeah, I should go.
I could write it and then youcould just slip it in.
Oh, perfect.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, hold on.
We need to go back to that guy.
But before we do that, I want tohear about what you've been
working on and you said me yourupdated the woman tree but i was
not able to read it last night iwish i could have but i okay
(09:26):
that's actually good um i tooksome time off during the summer
too after i had talked to rachelabout you know getting in my
head too much i switched theprotagonist from a male to a
female and then back to a maleand now all of my files like
when i went back to it the otherday to start writing again all
(09:47):
of my files were in some stateof weird like 80 disarray where
like half of one it was a womanthe protagonist and then it's
like I got confused with myfiles and then half and half is
a woman and a man and it's likewhat did I do basically what
I've done is I created a plotand the characters that are in
(10:11):
it and certain things that weregoing to happen and then I fed
it into chat GPT oh baby uh huhand And I asked ChatGPT to game
out my plot in a saves the catway.
It was like no prob.
And it just was like boom, boom,boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
(10:31):
And it made my plot a saves thecat plot.
Interesting.
And it wasn't very good.
Well, of course.
It doesn't know how to write abook.
I mean, it does know how towrite a book, but like not with
heart or soul.
No, no, not with heart or soul.
Like, first of all, I said toChatGPT, is it okay?
okay that I'm getting you to dothis or is it not okay is it
(10:56):
still considered my writing andChatGPT was like go for it girl
like it's fine actually ChatGPTwas like you know publishers and
editors and agents now expectwriters to use large language
models like ChatGPT like AI toas tools like to help them in
(11:19):
their You know, is it fair thatwe have word processors?
Is it fair that we have spellcheck and grammar check?
Is it fair?
Like, if you get somebody tohelp you plot out your novel,
it's still your novel, but thisjust happens to be like ChatGPT.
And also ChatGPT did a wayshittier job than I think a
person would have done.
(11:40):
But they did it in like onemillionth of time that it would
take for a person to do,including myself.
But I liked how it did stillhelp.
Yeah, share one, share one.
(12:19):
With that heart and soul.
(12:49):
where all the women have diedand the protagonist is a young
man who is working on a sheepfarm that has been in his family
for generations.
I have a whole plot that Iwrote.
I put it into ChatGPT.
It divided it up into a savesthe cat type of template.
And so the first chapter is theopening image, which is
(13:13):
something that saves the catsays to do where you just you
show life as normal.
So you go everything this is howlife is for my character before
the inciting incident fucks itall up and so what chat GPT gave
me was and this is not somethingthat I wrote Perry is on the
(13:33):
farm tending sheep in silenceand he looks in the drawer and
he sees the women's underwearit's like a shrine of grief
because they are no longer withus the crying trigger is is that
Perry sets out two extra platesat the table out of habit for
(13:56):
his mother and his sister.
Then he quietly puts them back.
So we're supposed to believethat this guy, mother and sister
have been dead for 13 months,accidentally is setting out
plates for them on the table.
But then he realizes, oh, right,they're dead.
He also has a shrine of theirunderwear.
And then we're supposed to cry.
(14:17):
Like mommy's undies.
Ah! Like, why would he belooking in their underwear
drawers?
Yeah, he's making Perry a realcreep.
I mean, he's a good old chatty.
Yes.
Okay, so this is another.
So then in the next chapter,it's the theme is stated.
And it's the setup.
(14:38):
So this is how you're supposedto do it.
As I said, in Save the Cat,that's the next beat is stating
the theme and somebody issupposed to state the theme of
the whole book to yourcharacter.
And it's usually not a anothermain character it'll just be
sort of like an aside um and sochat gpt wrote my neighbor
muttering the theme and it isthe theme so i'm not gonna say
(15:01):
it which actually that was goodthat's helpful for me because
i'm like oh okay like howsomebody should say the theme to
him and i did end up writingthat but i wrote it in like a
way creepier like cooler yeahbut it was nice to have this
laid out like oh that couldhappen in in chapter two i ended
up having my theme stated inchapter one so far but it's just
(15:22):
nice to see this laid out likethis and it makes me see what I
don't want to do because youknow if you see something done
poorly sometimes it goes oh thatwould have been so much better
if this yeah absolutely onething this is one thing that I
think is also stupid that thisis the cry trigger that Chad GPT
wrote for chapter two is thatPerry re-reads his father's
(15:43):
divorce letter which is stuffedin a drawer and the cry trigger
is that he traces his father'ssignature within Wow.
That's going to make you cry,Rachel.
Yeah.
Perry's got to stay out of thosedrawers.
Perry is this really sad man.
Like, I mean, in the story, heis a sad man, but he's not just
(16:06):
like roaming his house weeping.
Right.
And looking at underwear andlooking at old letters and
putting like he's not like hedoesn't have Alzheimer's or he's
not delusional where he doesn'tknow that people are dead.
Like being a sad man.
And then being a mopey man.
Very different.
Yeah.
Mopey.
He's not.
No, he's not a mopey man.
I sort of, I sort of want toread all the cry triggers.
(16:28):
This is really funny.
I mean, I want to hear the crytriggers.
So on chapter three, the setupis continued.
And the cry trigger is that afleeting memory of his lover's
laugh cuts through the silence.
So I don't know why.
Oh, no.
You know what I just realized?
Okay.
(16:48):
I love the name Perry.
for a guy and for my protagonistbut i just realized that i've
been listening to this song inthe car and it's a kid's song
from the soundtrack of phineasand ferb which is like a little
disney cartoon show that my kidslove and there's somebody in
that show called perry theplatypus yeah i was just about
(17:10):
to say the platypus fuck doeseverybody know that no don't
worry about that i love the nameperry i like when i hear perry
i'm like imagining these theseset of twins that I went to,
like, not preschool,kindergarten through third grade
with, Zeki and Perry.
And they were, like, the cutesttwins ever.
And they were boys?
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
So no one's going to think ofPerry the platypus.
(17:31):
No.
Well, I mean, unless you're,like, gearing towards Gen Z
people and younger.
Oh, right, right, right.
Because the parents don'tnecessarily know.
No, I don't think so.
Yeah, no, not Gen Z and younger.
Yeah.
Okay, wow.
Crisis of verdicts.
I don't want to think of adifferent name.
I mean, I've seen a good amountof Phineas and Ferb and it
(17:52):
didn't even cross my mind ohreally you've watched it well
unfortunately I mean no I meanit's a great show great show one
thing the chat GPT keeps onmaking these like really crazy
like coincidences like Perrygoes into Lord City this is like
(18:12):
a dystopian novel it's like thecity and the where we're
supposed to cry in that not inthat chapter is in a shop window
a doll wears the exact sameyellow dress that was always his
sister's favorite oh wow I don'tknow I mean I guess that could
be okay I'm not sure but it'slike do you know your sister's
(18:37):
favorite dress no but I do knowlike there are certain things
that she has had um that Iremember for example when we
went to Mexico when we weretweens with my mom she bought a
silver necklace with like a dropof a triangle drop of turquoise
(19:01):
and she wore it and I it's soher or it was so her and I
always envied it and wanted itso like something could be
something I'm like if mybrothers died and I saw in a
shop window what would it bethat like this shirt their
beanie or like you would nevernotice I mean but I guess I mean
(19:24):
there's maybe from when theywere teenagers they had a
certain cool thing they worelike that kind of stuff I think
makes more of an impression thanI guess I mean maybe I'm just I
can't think of anything yeahmaybe if they had been sisters
and they've been wearing coolclothes it might have made more
(19:45):
of an impact maybe that'spossible girls Yeah, I suppose
that would make sense.
There was a point in time wheremy little brother wore like,
this sounds ridiculous andsorry, Davey, for calling this
out.
But like he had like a littlerope that he had around like
(20:06):
with a mason jar that he wouldwear around his neck and he like
had a beverage in there all thetime.
Did it have a lid on it?
I feel like it did.
And it was usually some sort oflike jam.
juice because he was like in hishardcore like vegan hippie phase
and I mean if there was a dollwith a juice jar that would make
(20:31):
me think of him I don't knowI've never seen that anywhere
like I've never seen a hippiewearing a juice like a mason jar
around his neck with a rope itwas very distinct to him I think
yeah could he pull it off it wasa rough phase yeah yeah Did he
have like little juice splotcheson his shirt?
(20:52):
Probably.
Probably right where the rimhits the belly.
I don't remember.
It's like there's a reason whypeople don't do that.
Yeah.
I mean, he was so young.
You know, he was like probably19.
We all make questionable choiceswhen we're 19, right?
I looked like shit for betweenthe ages of like 13 and 23 that
(21:14):
decade.
Oh, my God.
I was making a lot of badchoices, guys.
Me too.
I know you were because you toldme that you used to just wear
overalls and walk around withbare feet.
No shoes on.
Yeah.
Like, walk around where?
Anywhere.
I would walk miles.
I would walk from my parents'house downtown, go out to food.
(21:36):
Like, I had no qualms with goinginto a store or a restaurant
with no shoes on.
Nobody cares?
I went to school with no shoeson.
Whoa.
And I had, like, three favoriteshirts, and I would just, like,
alternate them under theseoveralls.
But I only wore them Monday,Wednesdays, and Fridays because
I thought that maybe no onewould catch on.
It was bad.
It was bad.
(21:56):
You thought no one would knowyou were wearing the same
overalls all the time if youspaced it out.
Or the same three shirts.
I won't be overall girl if Isometimes wear something else.
I was definitely weird.
I was a weird teenager.
That's good.
And I think about it now andlike if I saw me like if I
(22:18):
currently as an almost 40 yearold woman saw walking around as
obnoxious as I was, oh, God, Iwould be like, ugh, that child
should be reprimanded.
Keep them at home.
Change their clothes.
I mean, I was told, and in myparents' defense, they were
(22:38):
like, you should probably wearshoes.
And I was like, I don't care.
All right, anyway, back onsubject.
Keep going.
Give us one more cry trigger.
Okay, let me see.
At one point, his lover saysthey're barely conscious after
being beaten oh no which is notwas not a part of the plot that
(23:00):
i gave it so it came up withthis woman getting beaten half
to death so thanks for that chatgbt um and she's barely
conscious and she whispers seeme and then perry says back i do
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
oh
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
and then we're sort of trans yeah ChatGPT is doing
some heavy lifting here wantingPerry to his story arc to be
about you know seeing thistransgender person for who she
(23:36):
truly is so I mean ChatGPT isdoing some stuff but I don't
know if I'm gonna beat a transperson half to death in my book
well that's probably a good ideayeah I mean let them live anyway
I had that I had it do thatwhich is really interesting it
was really interesting to feedmy plot in and then have it
(23:57):
carved out by chat GPT into allthe beats yeah and then just be
able to write from there withinthat I'm totally free and I'm
not gonna use any of the weirdstuff that it just like gave me
but it really gets my mind goingto be able to like critique what
it's done just to have a pointof reference for when I'm
(24:17):
writing like okay I sort ofwrite wrote that part I say to
the theme now what's the nextpart I'm supposed to do this is
how he suggested I do it but I'drather do it this way or it
makes more sense to do it thisway so this is like a really
good way for me to work yeahtoday I was listening to an
episode of the podcast the shitno one tells you about writing
(24:38):
have you listened to it no okayit's really good it's really
good especially once you'regetting into like the querying
phase but it was talking to adebut author and she was talking
about her path to publicationand And the way that she did it
was she wasn't done her novelyet, but she was kind of getting
(24:58):
close and she started gettinginto contact sort of like you
and I were trying to do before.
She did a lot of the ones thatare like the first five pages of
your novel.
Yeah.
And she did big ones because shewanted something in her query
letter where she could have aline that said the first five
pages of this work were longlisted for this prize and
shortlisted for this prize andwon this prize.
(25:20):
Yeah.
Right.
So then that would really gether some attention.
She ended up getting, yeah, longlisted and shortlisted for these
prizes.
And she even won one at one ofthe prizes.
One of the judges was an agentwho was interested in her.
Cool.
So that really makes me want to,you know, whenever I feel like I
(25:45):
have the first five pages down,even if I haven't completed the
work, I want to just startsending it.
Sure.
Oh, yeah.
I think I did that with my lastnovel.
But yeah, I haven't heard backfrom a lot of those contests.
No, me neither.
But I think that they had somepretty long wait times.
I think that that was prettystandard for it.
(26:06):
Like one of the contests that Isubmitted to, I can't remember
which one it was.
It said October.
You had to wait till October.
Yes.
Yeah.
And the Novelry Prize, that bigone, the big story idea prize
where you win$100,000 and whatnot.
That one, I think at the end ofSeptember, they're going to
(26:26):
give, you know, like the longlist or whatever.
And then I think people aregoing to vote.
So it's like public votes.
But they got 22,000 applicants.
Did you know that?
Dang, no, I did not know that.
22,000.
Well, look at it standing out inthere, hopefully.
Yeah.
Well, then now because theNovelry put on this big contest
(26:50):
and they got so many people'slike information who you know
have these books that supposedlythey want to finish they're like
you know leveraging that one ofthe things that they have they
have a new like little courseout there where it's like finish
your book by the end yes I'mabout to bring that up yeah yeah
so the novelry has sort of acourse out called like finish
(27:11):
your book by Christmas I thinkwhich I thought about joining
yeah are you gonna do it wellnow that now that I'm saying
this out loud it sounds reallystupid but I was like well I
don't really want to join it ifI'm going to win this big
contest and they're going togive me a free one anyways or
what if they like mine but thenthey see that I've already given
(27:32):
them money and they're like ohwell we might as well give this
to somebody who I think that youthink that they're thinking
about it too much I think it'ssuch a pie in the sky idea that
I would even get noticed and Ishould just continue life as
usual I think that if you'reinterested in this other course
and the 90 day book writingthing like do it like period
(27:55):
there's like there's no if I dothis then that like all of it's
good writing practice at the atthe core yeah at the very base
level and so what if yeah Ithink like I'd like to be
involved in something wherethere's some accountability
there's some structure yeahthere's some people but I think
(28:16):
it would be nice if it were inperson yeah it seems like nobody
wants to do anything in personNo, I need in person.
(28:50):
first five weeks of class likethat that sounded really shitty
to me and my own my personalitydoes not jive with that like if
I'm going to miss that muchschool I'd rather just start
when I can be there fully Idropped all the classes I'm
going to start again in thespring and that'll be that okay
can people start in the winteror it's just no it's fall
(29:11):
semester spring semester orsummer semester start spring
semester and I might just be aspring chicken at school you
know yeah the one thing I'mbummed about is that I can't be
in the creative writing club ifI'm not taking a class and I
don't think so because I thinkyou have to be an enrolled
student I mean I couldpotentially just show up on
campus and see what happens I'mfriends with them you know like
(29:34):
because a lot of them were in myclass before I don't think
they'd like kick me out but alsoI do think that the students who
are there actively enrolled inthese classes should take
priority time in this limitedtime of the club you know right
I mean I want them to feel likethey get to value each other and
that it's not just like somewoman coming in and be like,
(29:55):
read my shit.
Like for funsies.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I respect all of them as writersin general.
They're all like such goodpeople and talented.
And so I want them to make surethat they know I respect their
time.
Okay.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
I want to be a part of a writinggroup.
(30:15):
My son's teacher this year doesplaywriting.
But he said that he was part ofa really active group in the
South Bay, like closer to Ithink closer to San Jose.
They meet all the time and, youknow, they're really involved in
each other's writing and stuff.
And he's really great.
(30:36):
Yeah.
So I'm like, oh, maybe I couldlike get in on playwriting.
It's a playwriting group or justa writing group?
Just a writing group.
OK, that's cool.
Yes.
I would love to be a part of awriting group.
Should we see if maybe thatone's OK?
Yeah.
Or yeah, I would love to.
I feel like that would be reallygood for me to have like other
points of view and hear whatother people are working on yeah
(30:57):
um just to keep it like fresh inmy head and all you know just
yeah i just i also just wantpeople in my life who are a part
of the literary community insome way shape or form yeah even
if they're part of the literarycommunity is just coming to this
club and that's what we'rebuilding sure whatever it is
(31:17):
just something um oh i'm sorrymy my email just the New York
Times just said breaking newsTaylor Swift and Travis Kelsey
announced their engagement oh mygod it popped up in the right
hand corner of my screen thatwe're recording on and I was
like when you were talking aboutone of your cry triggers and I
was like oh inappropriate timingcongratulations to Taylor Swift
(31:39):
and Travis Kelsey oh should wetag them when we post this
episode oh my gosh yes we'll geta bunch of Swifties in here good
for them good for hey way to goshe found her person anyways I
don't really want to start acreative writing group because I
don't want the responsibility ofeverybody sitting down and
(32:02):
looking at me like where do westart I 100% I want to join a
group yeah I want to join agroup yeah I've never been a
part of one before so if you'reout here and you live in the San
Mateo County and you are in awriting group and you like us
please invite us please inviteus but I'm going to ask my son's
(32:23):
teacher what this group is andif Rachel and I can go.
And if we do go, we will reportback.
Yes.
Okay.
So playwriting, I haveabsolutely no interest in.
No offense to me.
No, me neither.
I am, as we've talked about,super interested in
screenwriting.
I think my next project, whenI'm ready to move on from Dinner
(32:45):
for Eight, is going to be ascreenwriting project.
I don't know what I'm doing.
I've been doing a little liketrying to find like how a
screenplay is written out, likehow all that works.
And I have a really interestingconcept idea.
I'm kind of excited about thatidea, but it definitely isn't a
book.
(33:06):
Like I feel like it should justbe a screenplay.
Okay.
You know you could feed yourcurrent work into ChatGPT and
ask it to reformat it into ascreenplay.
We'll have to do a whole episodeabout it.
I am so anti-AI.
Okay.
Okay, cool.
So you know what this is?
(33:27):
You know what this is?
The YouTube channel Screen Writewith James A.
Hurst.
One of the videos that wewatched that we were talking
about today was about the unityof opposites.
He was saying this is how youcreate unstoppable conflict in
your book is by creating twocharacters who are opposites in
(33:49):
like a bunch of different ways.
They're maybe stuck together,but they like need something
from each other, but they'retotally opposite.
(34:20):
we gotta kill you know like andhow they're trapped together
yeah they need each other yeahbut even his example of the
Sopranos where it's like aconflict of character but all
within himself of like he wantsto be a good person but he's you
know has to be a mob boss andlike all of his examples in this
(34:42):
were fantastic they werefantastic he also did Parasite
which is one of my favoritemovies and that was the
opposites were class.
So you have the upper classpeople and the lower class
family.
They need each other.
Everything about the way thatthey live and what they need is
(35:03):
opposite.
And that creates like so muchtension.
Yeah.
I haven't seen Parasite, butafter watching this
informational video that theHearst one, I was like, oh, I
got to see that.
I knew I needed to see it.
I mean, it won a frickin Oscar.
Like I knew I know it's on mylist.
but I know I'm like I reallygotta watch it's amazing um but
(35:24):
what I was gonna say was for usfor this podcast maybe our
opposites that will create abunch of conflict that will be
really interesting for ouraudience is that you hate AI and
I'm coming around to using ityeah you my with my work I I
mean in the few times that we'veum you know we've used it we've
(35:47):
used it like we're no no I'mlike can't pretend like i don't
use it but um the it's sohelpful and it is you know like
it is incredible there's nodenying what it's what it can
bring to the table but yeah ifeel like we should do a whole
episode on our opposites in thisour conflict do you want to do
that next time i think we shoulddo that next time okay so next
(36:09):
time guys kayla and rachel havea very heated debate will the
podcast be able to make it willwe survive or will they burn it
all down in the process oh welllet's burn it down outside of my
closet okay okay yeah i meanthat sounds really good okay so
(36:31):
conflict and obviously we haveour next episode but the other
video was the hero's um gift yesand that was also really cool
and i know i touched on thatgently at the beginning of the
episode but i love that too it'sa gift that your character has
some of the really odd obviousones are 11 from stranger
(36:52):
things, like how she uses hergift and how she has to hide her
gift, um, and how the gift makessense within her world.
But then there's ones that are,you know, if you're just writing
a drama or something or justfiction, but it's very
realistic, there's nothingspeculative or sci-fi about it.
Uh, you could think of the goodplace.
(37:13):
So what's Kristen Bell'scharacter called?
Do you know?
Oh God, I was literally watchingit last night when I was going
to bed.
Um, So Kristen Bell in The GoodPlace.
So the writing is so good inthis show and the dialogue,
especially her character.
Her gift is her.
What is this like her snarky?
(37:34):
She's very intuitive.
She like catches on to peoplereally easily.
And she's she's very snarky.
She's very edgy.
Yeah.
Eleanor.
Eleanor.
So I'm trying to think of whathe he he put it so well.
He did.
But it was basically that shecan read people.
and that she understandspeople's inner workings really
easily.
It was her intuition, basically.
(37:56):
And then, oh, I hated how he wastalking about Paddington Bear
because Paddington Bear couldnot be more like just, it's like
nails on a chalkboard for me.
I agree.
But Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.
I liked that one because it waslike her naivete that it was a
gift.
Yeah, her unstoppable optimism.
Yeah.
That's what makes herunbreakable.
(38:18):
But then there's like, you know,the Star Wars It's like Luke
probably has the...
Oh, yeah.
He really jerked it to StarWars.
He loved it.
I mean...
Actually, I didn't...
I guess I didn't watch thiswhole thing, but Star Wars, it's
like, what's his gift?
It's the Force.
The Force.
And, like, in his example, he,like, really loves Star Wars,
clearly.
You know, it's obviously theForce, but then it's also this
conflict inside of him and howhe uses it to change who he is.
(38:42):
And Luke's a gift, pretty much,is what he...
Luke is a gift to mankind.
Yeah, so in your...
dinner for eight do you thinkthat any of the characters maybe
Sam does she have a gift thathelps her I do think that her
type anus is actually the giftfor her in that book it's it's
(39:04):
so wildly like God girl unclenchand it serves her really well
and then I think there's alsothis gift of when she realizes
like that she doesn't need thatanymore and she like stuff
happens but okay yeah yeah Iwondering for my character Perry
this book for him in the womantree it's sort of like
(39:27):
institutionalized I think wouldbe the save the cat genre and so
that would be like a KatnissEverdeen kind of thing from the
Hunger Games or Winston in 1984so I'm like what is his special
gift going to be I think theidea is that you know everybody
(39:48):
in the country Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
(40:19):
things happen to you.
How can he move on when he'slooking at his mommy's panties
every day?
So I think that but I think thatthat's going to really come in
handy for him because he'sholding on to his grief.
He also has very, you know,strong, vivid memories of
(40:42):
everything that happened.
And he's going to hold people toaccount.
Yeah.
Right.
He's he he isn't able to justmove on and pretend that like
nothing happened like everyoneelse.
And maybe that will be hissuperpower.
Oh, I think so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (41:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
It's not as, I don't know.
It's not the force.
Is that what you're worriedabout?
No, no, it's not going to be theforce.
No.
He's not going to be like super,I don't like superhero stuff.
He's not going to be super inany way.
But I think that that's thebeauty of this list was like
Kimmy Schmidt doesn't have asuperpower.
It's just she's like been in afreaking dungeon for however
(41:21):
many years and now she has adifferent outlook on life.
Yes.
And so like the differentoutlook on life is the gift,
right?
I think I really want him tohave a gift.
Yeah.
But obviously when it comes to,you know, Star Wars or The
Matrix, these people's gifts arejust very front and center.
Whereas with the unbreakableKimmy Schmidt or The Good Place
(41:43):
or Fleabag.
Paddington.
Okay, if anybody's wondering,Paddington's gift is his...
Optimism.
His optimism.
No, no, his empathy.
No, no, his charitability.
Oh, right, that was it.
He gives and gives and gives.
Right, and he sees the best inpeople.
people.
Jesus Christ.
(42:04):
Do you hate marmalade?
Yeah, I don't.
I don't think I'm about iteither.
Yeah, no, no, I don't like it.
I don't like jam in general.
Really?
You don't like jam, girl?
Not even preserves?
If I'm going to do it, it'sdefinitely got to be preserves,
but no, I don't want it.
Anything sweet and sticky, notinto it.
Not into it.
I don't like milkshakes.
(42:25):
I don't like ice cream.
I don't like syrup.
Keep it away from me.
If it's sweet and sticky I don'twant it anywhere near me oh my
word I can see the look on yourface that look of just like
disgust oh it's literally I havea visceral reaction it's like
but you're and you're a bakerand you make really good
cinnamon buns yes those aresticky I know but I don't yeah I
(42:48):
don't really eat them yeah Imake them and I and it's very
specific I have to wash my handslike my spatula cannot have
sticky stuff on it it's I meanobviously I would wash my hands
regardless but yeah it's anissue when there's frosting on
(43:09):
my spatula if it gets in myhands dislike dislike I'm
pushing my dislike button ohokay so so I think I am actually
gonna look into what my what myprotagonist power is yes and I
want to see how I can infuse thebook with some some opposites
(43:30):
yeah I Harry is going to have aperson who kind of comes
alongside him and I should makethem opposites.
We've talked before about TheLast of Us and they have this
like happy and grumpy oppositionthing going on.
And I always love that.
I love because the grumpy personis kind of like the straight man
for the happy person.
(43:50):
So I can really make like thejokes go.
I feel like it's just like areally winning combination.
It is.
And then there's always like apivotal moment where the grumpy
person sees the the happy personhave to be hard or and then it
like wakes them up a little bitand it's always like this and
then they try to be happy rightfor the happy person which is
(44:12):
like so true to life you knowlike when you see someone have
to break their spirit and youknow in whatever capacity that
is and it's like oh my god yougot broken you know whether it's
in a good way or a bad way it'slike a oh my god yeah especially
when it's like a happy person
SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
yeah who has to like be sad
SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
yeah Yeah.
All right.
Okay.
So that's what I think I'm goingto do.
I'm also going to look into thiswriting group that David had
mentioned.
I don't want to bug him toomuch, but I'm just going to
fucking bug him.
Yeah.
Bug him.
We get to know.
Yeah.
Or look into other ones orsomething.
You know, you don't want to do,you can't commit to whole
(44:52):
courses and stuff, but I'm sureyou can go to events this fall
or go to meetings here and thereand that kind of Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, I have enough time to dothat.
I just I can't miss five weeksof school and then be like, here
I am.
I'm going to I can't resolve toget a bad grade knowingly.
Like there's there is only acertain amount of classes you
(45:13):
can get before you lose wholeletters in your grade.
I'm not the teenager I once waswhere a C is not going to bother
me.
Like, I definitely don't.
It's going to bother you.
It's going to bother me.
Yeah.
And I also don't want to be theone who's like, oh, what'd you
guys talk about two weeks ago?
You know, like, I don't know.
If you're going to do it, youwant to do it well.
Yeah.
Okay, great.
Um, so what are you going to do?
(46:00):
I think it'd be reallyinteresting in spring semester
when I do take the screenwritingclass if I have kind of like a
one that I've done or attemptedto like bring to the table and
see how I did.
Like, I'm kind of curious as tohow that would go.
Yeah.
To have something that you'vealready put together.
That would be great.
Yeah.
And actually, well, I'll figureout a way to like bring up my
(46:23):
idea for this screenplay in thenext episode because it's AI
related.
Chat GPT has has a place in itoh okay but you don't want to
tell people about it well bynext episode I'll figure out how
to tell people about it becauseright now it's still a little
bit too fresh and I don't wantto be like here's this little
egg let's you know like I don'tI'm not ready to share my egg
(46:45):
not ready no okay yep the eggsall right we gotta have an egg
metaphor somewhere in theepisode from the lady with the
chickens okay thank you guys forwaiting for us yeah thank you
and listening to all theepisodes if you have a sec and
you like our podcast and youlike sort of hanging out with us
(47:06):
if you could give us a fivestars on whatever you're
listening on that would be sovery cool yes and make sure
you're following us on Instagramyes and share it if you guys you
know feel so inclined pleaseshare it with friends because we
would love to get a little bitmore going yeah Instagram share
it with friends give us a ratinggo to our website and submit
(47:27):
something oh yeah yeah submityour short story for story time
yeah anything we would reallyreally love to share your stuff
and if you don't want your voicejust write it in and we will
read it um it's fun to hear yourstuff yeah do it and we want to
we just want to hear from you ingeneral like say anything okay
we do we want to hear okay uhwe'll see you next week okay bye
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