Save the Cat!

After a little summer hiatus (camping, in-laws, a spiral-bound manuscript from FedEx…), Kayla and Rachel are back in the podcast saddle and diving deep into the storytelling structure that screenwriters love and novelists love to hate: Save the Cat.

Rachel reveals she finished a whole-ass book (?!), and together they break down Blake Snyder’s iconic 15-beat “beat sheet” and genre system—using Dinner for Eight and The Woman Tree (working title) to show how the structure can help shape a novel without crushing your muse.

Along the way, we tackle:

• Whether all the women or all the men should die in a dystopian future (whoops, we go there),
• That weird masculine energy in the culture right now 👀,
• The ex that might actually be the monster in your house (literally or emotionally),
• And our shared rage at the YouTuber who said “Why Female Authors Don’t Matter” (no, we won’t link it).

There's also some spicy talk about ghosts, sperm vials, and Judd Apatow movies. Plus: why your protagonist's breakdown in the shower might just be their “Dark Night of the Soul.”

This one’s juicy. And crinkly. (Sorry, Rachel’s mic did a thing.)

🕯️✨ Writers, readers, and story nerds — if you’ve ever wondered whether Save the Cat is helpful or heinous, this one’s for you.

Please subscribe, rate and review!

New episodes every Wednesday.

E-mail us your short story at [e-mail]

Follow us on instagram @writeyourheartoutpod

Leave us a message at 650-260-4885

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Write your heart out.
Hi, I'm Kayla Ogden.
And I'm Rachel Sear.
And this is Write Your HeartOut.
I just did it with you.
Oh, Lord.
Oh, Lord.
Okay.
We are getting better at this.

(00:20):
Are we?
We said it in tandem-ish.
Yeah, it was cute, I think.
That's new.
We're back.
It's actually been a while sincewe podcasted.
What you guys may not realize athome is that we recorded the
first six episodes of thispodcast in like two weeks.

(00:42):
We sure did.
So we were seeing each otherevery other day.
We were like, we became soclose.
We were like, we were likeconjoined writing twins.
It really was like intense.
Yeah, it was like intense.
Her dog stopped Stopped barkingat me so much when I came
through the door.
Now Eugene, I think Eugene knowsme now.

(01:06):
Yeah, and you know, you mightknow Eugene.
I mean, not you, Kayla, you, thelistener, because you might have
seen us on Instagram withEugene, our co-host.
We made a video.
We did.
And it was just asking you guysto send in your stories because
we want to read them on ourstory times.
Did we get any more?
No.

(01:27):
Oh, you guys.
I know.
Come on, everybody.
Why don't you fucking guys sendus poems and stories to read on
our podcast?
What's wrong with you?
Yeah.
Does that make you want to?
Well, OK, wait.
So what have we been doing?
It's been like two weeks sincewe've seen each other.

(01:47):
Yeah.
So last time I talked to Rachelabout writing and it wasn't on
the pod.
She was writing like everymorning at 3.30, 4 a.m.
Her new work in progress.
Can I say it's called Dinner forEight?
Yeah, that's the working title.
Yeah, the working title.
And she was so into it that shewas kind of like didn't want to

(02:07):
go camping because she knew thatshe would have to stop.
And now you're freshly back fromyour camp.
Did you manage to write at allon your camping trip?
I did not.
I did not.
However, the day before I left,I had the entire thing printed
at FedEx and into a spiral boundlittle notebook and I've been
editing it by hand.

(02:29):
So I was working on it veryminimally.
While camping.
I did not have enough time to doany actual editing, but reading
it in print was really fun.
And I learned that I must readin print to change my brain into
editing mode.
Oh, really?

(02:49):
Yeah.
Doing it on the computer is wayharder for me.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
That's useful information.
So you got to read it.
Yeah.
Well, I haven't finished it yet.
I'm still working on it.
Well, we can talk more aboutediting later.
Rachel, you were on a campingtrip with your...
in-laws and your sister in-lawsand all your nieces and nephews

(03:13):
through your husband like yesdid they see you reading it and
did they read it or did you talkto them about your work at all
uh a little bit they they askedwhat it was and i told them what
it was uh but no i didn't letthem read it because it's
definitely too it's spicy damnwhen it's done they can read it

(03:35):
i just um It's not ready yet.
Oh, for sure.
I mean, I'm not saying, oh, forsure, because of what I've read.
I'm saying, oh, for sure,because I would never let anyone
read like a first.
No.
Yeah.
Right now it's for your eyesonly.
Well, I thought I wasn't allowedto read it anymore.
You're not.
I banned you from my.
You did.

(03:56):
Oh, my God.
Because my notes were too real.
No.
You couldn't have it.
It got it got.
It's like a legit murdermystery, and I don't want you to
know what's going to happen yet.
Seriously, that is so cute.
I thought you were just like,get out of my head.
No, no, no.
I liked all your notes.
That's not.
Okay, so I've been camping withmy in-laws.

(04:18):
We had a great time.
I'm wearing a sweatshirt thatsmells like smoke, even though
it's been washed as we talkright now.
And then what have you beendoing?
I haven't had too much time forwriting.
My in-laws were in town and it'sjust like summer.
Should I say just where I'm atwith my project?
I think so.
Definitely.
Okay.
So as you guys know, I'm trying,I'm working on a new book.

(04:41):
It's like this dystopian thingwhere it's an island nation
where all the women have died.
Right.
And so then there's this maincharacter who's like a 22 year
old guy and And I so that's kindof like the setup and the
premise.
But I'm trying to figure outwhat is what's it going to do,
you know.

(05:03):
But I got caught up because Ithink I was thinking too much.
And I was like, OK, actually,guess what?
It shouldn't be that all thewomen have died.
It should be that I should havea female protagonist and.
And it should be that all themen have died.
Oh, well, I like that way more.
Oh, my God.

(05:28):
So I'm like, I don't know why Idecided that.
I just you know what it probablywas.
I think I was like, oh, thissort of.
Handmaid's Tale feminist anglewhere all the women have died or
all the women are...
Maybe it's been done before.
I haven't read a book where allthe women have died.

(05:48):
But I'm sure it's out there.
And the handmaid's tale, youknow, all the women are brought
so low.
I just sort of felt like thathad been done, whereas maybe all
the men had dying hasn't beendone.
And also, I've been ingesting alot of having a lot of weird
feelings about this newmasculine energy that's been

(06:10):
happening in America.
Sure.
Do you kind of just by me sayingthat, do you get to sort of feel
what I'm saying?
Absolutely.
Do you explain a lot?
OK, no, no.
I know what you're saying.
OK, so there's a vibe.
I'm going to say a little bitmore about it, although it might
be unpolished because I haven'treally sorted it out in my head
yet.
But this would be a good it'd begood to talk to somebody about

(06:32):
this.
I'm going to say some of thethings that I've heard and
listened to that have broughtthis to the fore of my mind.
so there's this guy shane gillishave you heard of him i sure
have oh okay so he has um anetflix show called tires and i
watched it and i really liked ithe also years ago a few years

(06:54):
ago he was hired on snl as a newcast member but he was fired
before the season aired becausesomebody listened to his podcast
and heard him saying racialslurs oh i didn't know that yeah
so it Wow.
Wow.

(07:17):
My sense of him at that timewas, oh, he's probably a piece
of shit.
And then for some reason, I gavehim a chance and watched his
show Tires, which I reallyliked.
He did this kind of not to bringup Louis C.K.
again, but this sort of LouisC.K.
esque model where he producedthe show on his own.

(07:38):
It's low budget.
And then he sold it to Netflixrather than having Netflix
produce it for him.
And I really liked it.
It was a sweet little show.
Then I'm like, all right.
Well, let me check out his standup.
Checked out his stand up.
Let me check out his podcast.
And when I was listening to hispodcast, he said this thing that
sort of like hurt my feelings.

(07:59):
Oh, no.
So we're going to cancel himagain?
Oh, no.
I don't know.
It's like this ties into likethe whole masculine energy
thing.
Like there's a few podcasts.
I mean, I'm sure there'shundreds of podcasts like this
where it's just these dude bros.
And they just kind of bro outand they say whatever they want.

(08:20):
Like they don't bother being PCabout anything.
Like they'll say, um, draw goodTory things about women.
They'll say racist things.
They'll say whatever.
And it's sort of like thiskitchen table kind of vibe, like
come into my house and I'll tellyou whatever I want to tell you
in my house.
Yeah.
And, um, part of me, and I feellike this, there's a backlash,

(08:42):
the democratic party focusing somuch on like social issues and
also like the me too movement Ifeel like there's just like this
backlash where people have feltso restricted and yeah just like
all the cancellations thathappen I think people feel

(09:04):
suffocated all the new languagethat we're supposed to adapt and
people feel like they can neversay anything right and it's just
hard to keep up right and so Ithink that there's these dude
bros maybe like Shane Gillis whoare like ah fuck that you know
what I'm gonna have a podcastwith my friends I'm gonna say
whatever the fuck I want Ialready got cancelled from SNL

(09:27):
then I'm gonna produce my ownshow if you don't believe in me
and I'm gonna get my own fansand then you're gonna have to
buy it because you're not gonnabe able to disregard the fact
that people are gonna watch thisshit and that people want me to
say these things and so I'm sortof like oh you know I like this
unfiltered And I like feelinglike I'm in the garage with

(09:49):
these dudes and I can hear allthe things that they really talk
about, what guys really say.
Sure, right.
And one of the things that theysaid was, I think it was Shane,
I couldn't tell which guy'svoice it was, but I'm pretty
sure it was Shane, said thatwhen he's having sex with a
woman and she's like, ow.

(10:11):
Nope.
Yeah.
As it happens.
It like pisses him off.
And it makes him like, oh, well,fuck this then.
Oh.
And that he's like, yeah, he'slike, oh, well, I've done this a
hundred times.
It never hurt before, but OK.
And he was saying it totallyturns him off.

(10:31):
He's like, well, I can't do itanymore.
And like, why did you have tosay it like that?
Ow.

UNKNOWN (10:36):
Ow.

SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
Ow.
And he's like making fun of hersaying ow.
And I'm like, oh.
My God, this is way worse than Ithought it was going to be.
Get me out of this garage.
Yeah.
I can't imagine.
And these are comedians, right?
And so comedians tend to be alittle bit darker.
And more inflammatory onpurpose.
Yeah, inflammatory on purpose.

(10:58):
Right.
And so I was just like, I can'tlisten to this because now I'm
thinking that, you know, nowthere's just this insecurity
that like if I have a problemthat it's like this turn off and
I'm not supposed to like.
Say anything.
And oh my gosh, I guess this isactually really triggering for
me.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, it's veryoffensive.

(11:19):
We're allowed to feel pain.
Yeah.
And we're allowed to not want tofeel pain.
Yes.
In any context.
Of course.
Not just in bed.
Yeah.
And it's just like...
Oh, my God.
And, like, I did not hear thatinterview.
Guys, I will link to the episodein the show notes.
Sure.
But don't listen to it becauseit might make you cry.
Yeah.

(11:39):
I mean, it's just so gross.
And men, it feels like, youknow, just assaulty.
I don't want to say the R wordnecessarily.
But, like...
It feels gross.
Yeah.
Like, the fact that it makessomeone who's in a secure,
loving relationship, like,insecure.

(12:01):
Can you imagine being, like, asingle young woman hearing that
and being like, oh, no.
I don't want to turn off a guythat I'm newly dating.
Yeah.
Like, if it hurts me, like, I'mjust going to suffer through.
Like, I'm going to keeppretending like I enjoy it
anyway.
Oh, my God.
Like, I feel terrible for anyonewho's, you know...
That's a bummer.

(12:21):
Yeah, it was a bummer.
It was a bummer.
And there was this other thing.
I'm actually going to pull itup.
Okay, so while you're pulling itup, you had me watch a YouTube
video a few weeks ago about theguy who was...
Is this in that lane with theYouTube video that you had me
watch?
Oh, that is in this lane, but Iwasn't even going to bring that
up.
Okay, because that guy, I don'tremember who he was.

(12:44):
I hated him.
I was watching the video and Igot halfway through and I texted
Kayla and I was like, I hatethis and I don't even want to
listen to him anymore.
Because he was talking about howhe doesn't, he's like reviews
books.
But he doesn't want to reviewwomen's books.
And he doesn't feel like heshould have to.
Because just because we theaudience wants it doesn't mean

(13:04):
that he needs to do it.
And he does whatever the fuck hewants.
And I'm going to find it.
Oh, God, I hated it so much.
I hated it.
And it's like, OK, you have yourYouTube channel.
Like you do whatever you want todo with your reviews.
Yes.
You don't need to be a fuckingdick.
Oh, man.
Oh, yeah.
I thought.
OK, so his name is.
right conscious oh my god grosslike and not right as in like

(13:30):
the right but like writing andhis thing is why female authors
don't matter so that's that'sthe title of his thing i think
that was just totally clickbaityes i that clearly was clickbait
and this guy does a book clubcourses he has a podcast oh my
god we should try to get thisfucking douche on our podcast uh

(13:54):
I can write him a letter.
It's just like, I hate you.
Do you want to come beinterviewed by us?
Yeah.
At the beginning, he's sayingthat Rupi Kaur is he's like
making fun of Rupi Kaur.
Right.
In his video, Why Female AuthorsDon't Matter, he's saying that
he's gotten a lot of flackbecause he has done so many
videos about, I think, RaymondChandler.

(14:16):
He did something in school wherehe did a huge deep dive into, I
think, Raymond Chandler.
Then he made like 100 YouTubevideos all about Raymond
Chandler.
And then he also likes all ofthese other.
He really likes the guy thatwrote Infinite Jest, Foster
Wallace.
I also like these guys, theseauthors.
Sure.
And then he says that he justkeeps on getting people saying,

(14:38):
why don't you ever do deep divesinto women authors?
And he in this video, he's just.
lashing out against people thatkeep coming for him about this.
And he's like, listen, I'mfollowing my interests.
He's like, then he lists 10great female authors and he

(14:59):
pretends that he's doing it offthe cuff.
But you can see him kind oflooking up to the side like he's
made this list and it's pastedon his wall and he's reading it
out.
And he's being like, I've readall of Margaret Atwood.
I've read all of Ursula.
like he's saying all these womenauthors like as if he he does
read all of them he just doesn'twant to make videos about them
right now because right now he'sfocused on this other thing and

(15:22):
just because they're men like heshouldn't be whatever whatever
whatever and he said that thisis the problem this is why
literature is dying becausepeople are being policed about
what they can read and then menaren't writing anymore and men
aren't reading anymore becausejust female authors are being

(15:43):
shoved down their throats andwhatever right yeah I wanted to
punch this guy right in thefucking mouth oh my gosh okay so
I actually I agreed with him umI thought that he should be able
to read.
Of course he should.
He should be able to readwhatever he wants.

(16:03):
And talk about.
Yeah, like you said, it's hisYouTube channel.
And also it's like he's a man.
And that doesn't mean that heisn't going to enjoy female
authors.
And I know historically men havesaid that, you know, women
aren't funny and they wouldnever want to read anything by a
woman.
Obviously, there's a problemwith that.
But that's not what he's saying.
I read mostly probably femaleauthors.

(16:28):
And it's true what he's saying,that there aren't as many men
writing anymore, and theindustry is completely
female-led now.
I get it, and I don't think thatwe should be telling young men
that they have to read femaleauthors.
If they're really into RaymondChandler, go for it.
Yeah, I just like...
So how long is that video?
Like 20 minutes?

(16:49):
12 minutes.
Oh my God, it felt like 20minutes.
Okay, so the thing is, is thathe could have just been like,
hey...
All of my followers, right nowI'm deep diving into this guy.
The next one I'm going to do isthis guy.
And one day I'll get to one ofthe women authors.
It's not that I'm not going to,but I just am not into it right

(17:10):
now.
End of fucking statement.
He didn't have to do this wholeself-righteous bullshit that he
does.
And I didn't like it.
I mean, I agree.
He does not have to do anythingwrong.
he doesn't have to have ayoutube channel he could just
read it and write his 100 hourthesis on it that he wants to do
you know like yeah you're justlike get out of my face yeah i

(17:33):
just i feel like not everyoneneeds a youtube channel there's
also that i mean good for him iguess good yeah he should keep
going he's so like he's soself-righteous the other thing
too is that he's sort of like asnob about about writing he's
talking about how there's nolike literary heroes anymore

(17:55):
that are kind of like acelebrity like a even just like
a B-list celebrity that peoplecan look to and follow in their
footsteps and admire.
And he mentioned that even withwomen, there isn't.
I think that's why he was makingfun of Rupi Kaur, who is a super
successful poet, but her poetryis usually deemed like not super

(18:17):
literary.
But he said, you know, there'sJ.K.
Rowling, but, you know, sheisn't writing anything real,
right?
And I mean, everybody has, youknow, a lot of people have
problems with her.
But what's not real?
I mean, OK, Harry Potter isfantasy.
Right.
So it's not real.
But.
It is talking about a lot ofreal things.

(18:39):
Totally.
And I'm sure he reads fuckingsci-fi and shit.
Like, what does he mean thatit's not real?
It's not real enough for you?
Like, I just don't.
He's such a snob.
And I'm a snob too sometimes,but I've become a lot less
snobby since I've been a part ofthis book group of moms.
Well, we really bring you downto our level.

(19:01):
Yeah, you really bring me downto reality and touch grass.
So that's part of the backlash.
Yeah.
And what was the...
Okay, so then there's this otherthing.
This I think was reallyinteresting.
It looks like right after Ilistened to that whole guy's
thing is when I listened to thisother podcast.

(19:23):
So the podcast is called Ask aMatchmaker with Matchmaker
Maria.
I had never listened to itbefore or anything, but it
popped up on my YouTube.
And she was interviewing a womancalled Vera Papasova.
And Vera Papasova wentundercover and dated men from

(19:45):
the far right.
She's a journalist.
And so it was during PresidentTrump's and Kamala Harris's
presidential campaign thathappened.
And she just said that nobodyreally wanted to talk to her for
her to do a story about it.
On the left, she said theyseemed like they had no energy.
There was no energy behindKamala's campaign.

(20:09):
They didn't have much to say andbut everybody just seemed kind
of like tapped out sure so shedecided to to go undercover and
figure out what these men on thefar right are like so she and
she's she's not she's left okayleft person left this person and

(20:31):
she went on dates with likedozens of far-right guys and And
in her profile, she said, youknow, I'm not a far right trad
wife type person, but I am veryopen to learning about the
ideas.
Okay.
And she said that when she wouldgo on a date with these guys,

(20:51):
she was like a unicorn becausemost women who weren't far right
and who were more just cool,normal women wouldn't give them
the time of day.
Right.
Or would go on these dates andjust, as soon as the guy
expressed an opinion, they wouldjump down their throats.
Okay.
So then they hate left-wingwomen.

(21:13):
Like, they think that they'rethe worst.
Yeah, I am the worst.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, she was just talking alot about how they felt and the
things that, you know...
The things that they feel.
Okay, wait.
Why are we talking about her,though?
What is the...

(21:33):
I was going to comment a littlebit on how men have been, like,
pushed back a lot and howthere's a reaction to this.
Sure.
One way to do that is all of thewomen die and it's at the hands

(21:53):
of, like, men.
Okay.
And...
It's like they were pushed sofar by this feminine culture
like all the way into the futurethat they, you know, regained
their power somehow and werelike, fuck this and killed us
all.

(22:14):
That's one way to kind ofcomment on it.
Another way would be thefeminization of our culture
gained so strong that we didn'tneed any men anymore and we kind
of like killed all them off.
But we missed them.
And so that's kind of a way tocomment on it like it goes too

(22:35):
far.
Like either way, the comment isabout what happens when one
gender overtakes the other.
Sure.
In power.
It's been men forever.
Yeah.
And in some ways, it's likethere was a glimmer, a little
tiny glimmer.
There was like a six year spanwhere it felt like women were

(22:59):
really, really on the rise.
Like Hillary Clinton almost wonthe presidency.
There was the Me Too movement.
Abortion was legal throughoutthe country.
There's more women inuniversities than men.
You know, all of this stuff.
Yeah.
It just started to feel likewomen were getting an upper

(23:19):
hand.
Sure.
Yeah.
And now it's like, it feels likemen felt like, oh, we let them
feel like they were gettingsomewhere so that they would
shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_01 (23:30):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
And hold on a sec, bitch.
Like, you know what I mean?
Oh, that's definitely what itfeels like.
That's for sure.
Yeah.
Like, get back down.
Get back down.
Right.

UNKNOWN (23:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (23:40):
So I decided to flip it so that it was a female and
that all the men had died, okay?
Yes.
And...
It just, I, there was no heartbehind it.
It was like I was doingsomething.
I was crafting something.
I don't know.
It just wasn't right.

(24:01):
Okay.
So I spent all this time doingthat.
Right.
And then whatever.
One day I was like working on mylittle cupboard, like for my
muse.
Oh yes.
The muse cupboard.
I can't wait.
Yes.
I can't wait to see what'shappened with that.
And I just felt like she waslike, nah, nah, stop it.
Like stop fucking with myvision.
Like I gave you this.
Yes.

(24:22):
And now you're thinking about ittoo much.
Like you're trying to bepolitical about something that
is inspired.
Sure.
And she's like, pick me up.
So I picked up the cupboard.
She's like, fucking grab yoursmokes, get outside, bring your
laptop.
I'm like, okay.
So I'm going insane.

(24:42):
So I put my cupboard down.
Now I really feel like she's ashe because there's a picture on
it of a woman.
It's like an illustration of awoman.
holding onto the trunk of a treeand shaking it and apples
falling down.
And so I'm like, she's my museor I'm her or something.
Okay.
So I bring her out and I likeset her up and I just started

(25:02):
like, putting it back to all thethe women died and I'm I have a
male protagonist I feel likeI've been told you know
encouraged or just told like toto write from a female point of
view and do a female protagonistand I think that's probably
because most of the people whobuy books are women and most
women identify better with afemale protagonist and sure but

(25:26):
I I keep on wanting to writefrom the point of view of a
young man.
I keep on doing it over and overagain.
So I'm just like, you know what?
this is what the muse is wantingme to do.
And this is what I'm going todo.
Yeah.
I mean, it was your gut.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Your gut, your muse that toldyou where to go in the first
place.
Yeah.
Definitely overthought it.

(25:47):
Yes.
Yes.
Oh, my God.
And I don't know if it's reallyI mean, obviously, it's heavily
gendered and dystopian and allthe women have died and that
kind of thing.
But I don't know exactly what Ihave to say about this.
You know, I think that thatcomes when you're further in.
Yeah.
Maybe I'm like learning aboutRight.

(26:07):
Well, I mean, at some...
I mean, obviously, I don't knowwhere your book is going or...

(26:35):
At some point, a world of menwould have to realize that there
is no future without women insome capacity.
They cannot grow a child.
They need eggs.
But in the future, maybe they...
Well, right.
In this world, I don't know ifthey do.
However...

(26:56):
But if it weren't just aboutprocreation, would they still
need women?
I mean...
I have very sassy things to say.
Yeah, and if we didn't need menfor procreation, would we still
need men?
Well, we could just have a fewdozen vials of sperm and
repopulate the earth any time weneeded to.
That's the pro of being a woman.

(27:18):
Absolutely.
A few vials?
Yeah, there's millions andmillions of sperm in one
ejaculation.
So millions of women couldhave...
babies off of one ejaculation.
So if you had dozens and dozensof different strands of DNA,
we're, we're set women and wecreate more, we can create men
and women.

(27:38):
So if we can also choose, right.
If it's a man or a woman in thePetri dish, can't we?
Oh, well now, yeah, there'senough science to choose.
Yeah.
So if you just keep makinggirls, right.
However, you do need fresh spermin order for the human race to
survive, right?
We need We need different typesof DNA so that we don't inbreed.
Oh, yeah.

(27:59):
Whereas let's pretend then.
I mean, literally, we could haveso much.
We have so much sperm.
Right.
Frozen.
Right.
We would have enough to keepgoing for a long time.
And then if we want it, we couldjust make a few boys.
Right.

UNKNOWN (28:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:16):
I mean, women have a lot more potential to succeed in
that sense in the universe.
If we were to send...
If we were to kill Elon, buttake all of his tech, go to
Mars, we don't need to bring anymen.
We just need to bring a fewvials of sperm.
And we'd be fine.

(28:37):
And I...
I'm not even joking.
I would miss them so much.
Would you?
Yes.
All right.
Well, that's nice of you.
I love men.
I love men.
I love my husband and my son,and I love your husband and your
son.
Yeah.
I mean, they're chill.
I choose to live with them, youknow?

(28:58):
Like, it is a choice I'm making.
They're chill.
However, like, do I thinkthat...
Yeah, on, like, a broader...
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like they can have thepotential to make the world a
better place.
However, does God.
OK, now I'm going to put myselfin a hole by continuing that
sentence.
I'm just going to stop.

(29:18):
OK.
Yeah.
You don't have to have anopinion about this.
I clearly am a diehard feminist,though.
And you like men more than I do.
Yeah, that's clear.
I mean, I don't like men that Idon't know that haven't like
proven themselves to me.
I mean, I feel like perhaps weshould not go too far down the

(29:42):
rabbit hole of...
If we like politics, politics,you know, because we're talking
about writing.
Yeah, right.
Uh huh.
I don't think there's a problemwith discussing those kinds of
things.
Yeah.
So and it is the themes arecoming up like in my work.
Right.
And I think that's important,too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just think the battle of thesexes is the battle of the sexes
is really unfortunate.

(30:03):
And it's unfortunate that we.
like hate each other you know sothat was that's been my journey
I haven't gotten really far withthe plot but something that I
want to do to explore my plot isto try to get inspired by this
like save the cats paradigm sureyeah finally we're going to talk
save the cat yes finally we'vebeen talking about talking about

(30:26):
it for a really long time I amactually prepared to go through
the saves the cats so they havea different things so the beat
sheet yeah so they have a beatsheet with 15 beats that
basically it started withscreenplays and hundreds of
different screenplays basicallyhit these beats and that's

(30:48):
probably why blockbusters feelso formulaic and so played out
but you can also use the beatsin your novel not that you want
to after I just said that butbasically it's a way to guide
your reader put them on like aemotional like a little
emotional roller coaster withlike peaks and valleys and then

(31:10):
make it satisfying at the endand then they also have their
own genres so they have 10genres so I'm prepared to
explain all Yes, I did.
I did my homework.
What do you know?
And I actually went through eachbeat as he's talking about them.
This is Blake Snyder, by theway, who is a screenwriter and

(31:31):
quite successful at it, itseems.
And I actually went through eachbeat as he's talking about them.
And so, Rachel, you got theoriginal Blake Snyder one for
screenplays.
And I got like the one that thischick adapted for novels.

(31:55):
Oh, interesting.
OK, so that.
Yeah.
OK, great.
So the one that I got just isthe O.G., Blake Snyder is
definitely movie-focused, notwriter-focused.
However, when he goes throughthe different beats, I did not
think about Carolyn at all.
Carolyn has kind of been...

(32:15):
She's taking a nap.
But I did, however, go throughDinner for Eight.
And...
As you go through your list, Ican say how they kind of have
correlated in what I've written.
Yes.
Because I have finished Dinnerfor Eight.
What the fuck?
Yeah.
I mean, it's definitely inediting, but like it's 60,000
something words.

(32:36):
Oh my God.
Why don't we have champagne?
You finished your first draft?
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (32:44):
Yay!

SPEAKER_00 (32:44):
It's a really, I really like how I ended it,
actually.
I'm happy with it.
That is fucking crazy, Rachel.
Oh my God.
You wrote a book in like amonth.
I did write a book in a month.
Isn't that wild?
What the hell is happening?
Yeah.
And I think it's good, which iswild.
Okay.
Holy shit, dude.
But look, so I went through eachbeat and then wrote out, here we

(33:07):
go, where I think it's hittingin my story.
Okay.
So like, am I hitting them all?
And I have to find where i madenotes but i like legitimately
made notes in the book aboutwhere all my beats are hitting
okay cool and you don't needobviously to hit these beats i'm
gonna leave out well yeah okayin general do i need to hit them

(33:29):
or do i need to share them no nojust in general you don't need
nobody needs to do this in theirstory I definitely don't think
so.
However, I did really like alot.
You know, I do feel like itgives a good flow.
Yeah, me too.
And while I don't necessarilyagree with 100% of them, I do

(33:52):
think that they give...
A good flow to things.
And I can see that.
Yeah, me too.
Hey, hardies.
It's Kayla here.
I'm editing this episode of thepodcast right now.
And I just wanted to let youknow that at this point, as
Rachel and I get into kind ofthe meat of the episode and we
go over everything, save thecat.

(34:13):
Her microphone started makingthis really messed up sort of
crinkly crackly noise and I hadto use something called a sound
isolation plugin.
So her voice sounds a little bitweird for the rest of the
episode.
Just wanted to apologize forthat and let you know that we're
going to fix the issue for nexttime.
Like we're aware of it andhopefully it's not too

(34:36):
distracting for you.
All right.
Thanks.
I'll start with the genres, Iguess, because that's more of
like an overview.
Sure.
Normally, bookstore genres arefantasy or sci fi or romance.
But these are more likeemotional, the emotional shape
of your story, the bones, thevibe.

(34:57):
And the first one would bemonster in the house so there's
something terrifying on theloose people are dying the
monster is literal or not jawsget out jurassic park the
shining then two is the goldenfleece which is that's a really
old timey name and i don't knowwhere it came from and it really

(35:20):
annoys me that this one's calledthe golden fleece uh it's a
quest uh So someone grabs aragtag team, hits the road, and
learns about themselves allalong the way.
Sure, sure.
Little Lord of the Rings-y.
Yeah, and the Wizard of Oz.
You don't necessarily have totravel, I guess.
It could be like an emotionaljourney, but you have to grow

(35:40):
emotionally.
So three is out of the bottle.
So magic enters your normal lifeand causes chaos, like a genie
or a spell or a cursed doll,like Freaky Friday.
big 13 going on 30 that kind ofthing okay and it's like you got
your wish but at what cost fouris dude with a problem so it's

(36:04):
an ordinary person with a bigproblem there's high stakes and
there's like a ticking clockprobably so time is tight so
like the martian uh taken do youremember yeah of course The
whole genre is basically asking,what would you do if this shit
happened to you?
So five is rites of passage.

(36:25):
It's like a life transition thatthe person didn't ask for.
So it could be like they'regoing through grief, addiction,
heartbreak.
Puberty is a really big one,obviously.
So it's like ladybird, eighthgrade.
Yeah.
And then six is buddy love.
So it's a love story, but it'snot always romantic.

(36:46):
I really like this.
So it's two mismatched weirdoswho complete each other.
Maybe they hate each other atfirst, but it reminds me a lot
of what's that new zombie one?
This is it or the last of us,the last of us, where it's like
the older guy and the younggirl.
Yeah.

(37:06):
Yeah.
And I love those like mismatchedbuddy things or there's a trope.
This isn't from Save the Cat, Idon't think, but there's a trope
that's cheerful and grumpy orhappy grumpy sure like the
grumpier old men yeah like inthe what did you just call it
this is us no uh last of us lastof us um in the last of us the

(37:27):
dude this old dude is reallygrumpy and then the girl she's
also kind of grumpy but she'salso like she loves jokes yeah
she's always trying to likelighten the mood um so that
could be a trope that you use inbuddy love which i really like
um so it says think thelmanlouise when harry met sally toy
story because there's like Buzzand Woody totally for some

(37:49):
reason the first one that cameto mind when you said that was
Pineapple Express which is likereally really random for me to
have thought of oh yeah becauseit's like there's this guy that
smokes weed all the time andthen isn't there a more straight
laced guy I think they bothsmoke a lot of weed but one's
like super he fucked up and tookthem on this journey that they
weren't really supposed to be onand then like they have one of

(38:11):
them I don't remember I actuallydon't remember James Franco got
cancelled we can't even talkabout him oh so that's funny
that that came to mind oh okayso the next one is uh why done
it so the mystery isn't aboutwho did it but why and it digs
into the psychology of it all solike gone girl mayor of east

(38:34):
town oh god that's such a goodshow that is such a good show i
love the mayor of east town Andit's like the killer isn't the
twist.
The truth is.
So the next thing is the FoolTriumphant.
So I love these.
Love, love, love these.
So it's the underdog thateveryone underestimates turns

(38:54):
out to be a genius.
So like Erin Brockovich, LegallyBlonde, or Forrest Gump.
I love those.
You gotta love Forrest.
Damn.
Does Napoleon Dynamite go intothat one?
I don't even know.
How does he win at the end?
I mean, he dances his littleheart out.
How does he win?
I don't know.

(39:16):
Or Pedro?

SPEAKER_01 (39:17):
Pedro!

SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
I don't know.
Okay, bad example.
So this underdog, they don't winin spite of who they are.
They win because of it.
So it's like all their littleshitty qualities end up being
really clutch.
So...
Then there's two moreinstitutionalized.
So I think this is what thesedystopian ones like perhaps mine

(39:42):
is usually the one that I'mworking on would usually be
about.
So it's a story about a groupversus the individual.
Does the individual conform,rebel, burn it all down or walk
away?
So like the devil wears Prada.
One flew over the cuckoo's nestmidsummer.
Yeah.
And obviously like the HungerGames.

(40:04):
Right.
Yeah.
So the last one here issuperhero, which I hate.
Extraordinary people dealingwith extraordinary burdens.
It could be a literal capewearer or just someone who's too
gifted like Black Panther,Amelie, the Queen's Gamut.
You have power.
What now?
I don't like that.

(40:25):
Genres.
You said you wanted to use thisa little bit to think of the
woman tree.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
The woman tree, yeah.
That's what I'm calling my newbook.
Working title.
Where do you feel like it'sfitting into your...
Where do you feel like you'refitting in?
So I feel like in dystopianworlds in the future like this,

(40:51):
often it would be...
institutionalized would be thegenre where it's like the reason
why all the women died in thisisland nation is um because of
something that the governmentdid right so normally I think it
would be you know my protagonistwould be kind of going up

(41:13):
against them sort of like howKatniss goes up against whoever
those guys are the president thepresident and but I can't the
capital yeah I can't imaginemyself I think that's going to
be part of it and I already sortof have a bit of a plot for that
but I think that might be moreof the B plot and I think I

(41:35):
because I'm usually moreinterested in dialogue and
relationships and likecharacters sure so I think
there's definitely going to besort of a love story and a buddy
a buddy love so okay I like thatyeah I like the idea of that
being the B plot yeah it's notgoing to be like all this like

(41:56):
action packed like taking downthe government thing it's going
to be like there's actually somany of these that I feel like
it fits that maybe I need tonarrow it down but The Golden
Fleece, like the going on aquest with a ragtag team.
Like I already know certaincharacters that are going to
come around.
So this does help.
Yeah.

(42:16):
I'm trying to think of whatgenre I would categorize as
dinner for eight and maybe...
Maybe...
Oh, yes.
She has her hands raised.
But, yeah, you say yours,Ursula.
I would either say Monster inthe House or Out of the Bottle
would be kind of both of...
It kind of fits...
I was surprised Out of theBottle kind of fit in my brain

(42:39):
space, but...
Is there magic?
There's no magic.
But your examples didn't allhave magic.
Freaky Friday, 13 going on 30.
Oh, no, you're right.
You're right.
You're right.
There's no magic.
Okay.
So then, yeah, more monster inthe house.
I think maybe what you werethinking was wish granted, but
at what cost.
Maybe?
Yeah, that kind of fit, I guess.

(43:00):
Because your protagonist wantsto have, like, sexuality in her
life right or something but yeahI don't know I don't know where
it goes because you won't let meread I know and it's actually
changed a little bit I'm gonnasay more monster in the house I
think that it's it's more ofthat yeah we've talked about the
premise for Rachel's storybefore but in case you didn't

(43:23):
know so the monster in the houseis funny because Jennifer ate
the protagonist Sam Sam theprotagonist Sam and then she has
her six best friends over herher and her husband have their
six best friends over fordinner.
And it's supposed to be a murdermystery game, which is very like

(43:44):
she's very type A.
She has it like down to a T.
She's hired this company to doit.
And then one of the guestsbrings another guest that she's
not expecting, and that throwsher off.
And then it's her ex, and thatthrows her off.
And then they have like thisreally crazy pass together.
And then it just like keepsunraveling for her.

(44:07):
So that's the monster in thehouse, which is really
interesting because it's likethe example, some of the
examples of that genre are likethe shining, right?

UNKNOWN (44:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:17):
or get out or jaws you know like an actual monster
yeah but this is really cool todo the genre of monster in the
house but the monster is your exthat you want to bang yeah but
he is out like he's actuallyhe's a legit monster too like
not i mean not like not awerewolf you know but like but
he's he's he's a terrible personterrible person yeah but then at

(44:38):
the end who's actually themonster you don't really know
because there's a there's yeahis it sam is it the ex is it her
husband is it her friends youdon't know i don't know yet yeah
so obviously i'm still a littlediscombobled about my genre i've
i've only written 4 000 words ofthis thing it's so crazy that

(45:01):
i've only written 4 000 wordsbut i've overthought it so much
that i've already rewritten itand stuff totally i just need to
go it's i've learned too muchover the last you know five
years about writing and i'vegotten too much advice i've
listened to too many podcastsand read too many books and it's
like i it's sort of your musewanted you to pants it yeah and

(45:24):
you just took the pants offinstead you should take off my
pants you're like i'm gonnapress them and iron them make
sure they're perfect and thenput them back on go anywhere but
she's just like wrinkle thosemotherfuckers sit down and write
you wear those pants baby yeahOkay, well, yeah, I think that
this was a good conversation forme.

(45:44):
I think I do need to pants it.
Just write.
Just fuck it.
Just do it.
I mean, that was your advice tome, which is, like, roll with it
and just, like, throw some shiton a page.
Yes.
So it's easier to say it tosomeone else than do it.
Yeah.
I'm going to throw it at younow.
I threw it at you.
Okay, I caught it.
So shall I go into...

(46:05):
So Save the Cat is famous forthis beat sheet.
And they say that...
Every famous movie ever hits allof these beats.
And then Save the Cat can alsobe worked on novels.
So I'm going to talk about whatthe beats are sort of as
succinctly as I can.

(46:25):
There's 15 beats.
And Rachel, feel free tointerject and comment and say,
you know, if you've hit thesebeats or if you think if you
like them, if you think they'renecessary or if you have
anything to add.
OK.
Yep.
So the first one is the openingimage.
and this happens in the firstone percent of the story so it

(46:45):
was really helpful for me tolearn this so this is where you
just get a glimpse of the worldbefore the shit hits the the fan
it's you show the main characterin their life you know you just
have sort of a scene where youget you get sort of situated so
yeah in in rachel's book youcould you have that right i do
yeah so this is something thatyou hadn't read because i added

(47:07):
it back to the beginning um oradded it to the beginning the
main character and anothercharacter are younger and
they're they meet on a train andsam is in like a whole different
like in her early 20s likeliving her best life and she's
got like a whole different kindof personality than what you
meet when the movie actuallylike really starts movie i think

(47:32):
it's a movie yeah the movie umSorry, reading saves the cat put
me in movie mode.
But when it actually picks up topresent day, she's in a
completely different mindset.
And then that becomes reallyclear.
And you're like, how did thathappen?
Who is this transition?
So it's like setting up like,oh, something changed.

(47:54):
Why did it change?
I feel like it sets it up.
Okay, very cool.
That almost feels like aprologue.
Oh, it's definitely a prologue.
So to me, that doesn't soundlike this beat.
No?
Not the opening image, but whatyou had before, showing the

(48:18):
world before the shit hits thefan.
of the actual story that you'regoing to show is when she's
walking through her housebecause you're showing
everything normal you're showinghow she thinks about her husband
you're showing pictures of herkids on the wall you're talking
about her relationships that shehas with her friends why they
don't see each other as muchanymore so that's like this is

(48:39):
what life is like for her rightright right that to me is this
beat okay okay okay maybe not umtwo is themes stated so Um,
someone says something to yourcharacter that announces the
theme and your character doesn'tget it yet, but the reader or

(49:00):
the, the audience get is like,Oh, that seems like it's
important.
Um, and once you know about thisbeat, it is so funny.
Once you know about these beatsand you watch a movie, you're
like, Oh, that person is statingthe theme.
It definitely happens in everysingle Disney movie.
So after I learned about this inmy novel I wrote before, I added

(49:22):
a scene like this.
I was just like, oh, you know,when he's a teenager, his dad
tells him that he needs to workon his anger issues or whatever.
And then in the end of the book,it's like, that's totally what
kills him.
Like, that's his fatal flaw.
Yeah.
And when I added that scene, itmade the book feel like a lot
more meaningful and likecinematic.

(49:44):
Yeah.
It brings it does that thingwhere it's like, what you're
really good at doing of likeclosing these loops.
Sure.
It's like, oh, it brings it allback around, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So did you state a theme or havea character say a theme to Sam?
Yes, I think so.
But then that happens once it'smore present day.

(50:04):
I think that Greg, the husband,he kind of introduces the themes
because in their firstinteraction together, which is
the first like actual realdialogue in the book, he's,
giving off like her wholecurrent day vibe and like, Like
pushing back against the waythat she's behaving and stuff.

(50:26):
Yeah.
Cool.
Okay.
So then beat number three fromthe Save the Cat is supposed to
happen within the first one to10% of your screenplay or book.
It's the setup.
So now you're introducing yourpeople, their problems, their
world, and what's off about it.
Yeah.
You're sort of like setting upthe bombs that will detonate

(50:47):
later.
So you're establishing thedysfunctional family, the
strained BFF dynamic.
the haunted house across thestreet that kind of thing when I
was like doing this I thought ofa little story that I could tell
in order to like illustrate allthese points yeah so um when I
was just sitting in my caroutside of your house waiting to

(51:09):
come in I like thought of thestory so um haunted house so
like the setup would be sayyou've got this kid like Dennis
and he's walking to school andhe walks past like this haunted
house and he's got like hislittle brother with him or
whatever so that would be likethe setup and then the next one
is the catalyst so it's thething that blows up their status

(51:30):
quo someone dies gets dumpedwhatever they win the lottery so
for example these kids arewalking across the street you
see the haunted house and thenas they're walking past they
hear like a blood curdlingscream right yeah so that would
be like the catalyst do you havea setup and a catalyst yeah so i

(51:52):
do it's when all of the friendscome to dinner yes and then so
you're kind of meeting all ofthese people and then the
monster comes through the doorwhich is the catalyst yeah and
it's like Oh, shit.
It's like an ocean.
Oh, shit.
I'm like, how is this going tohappen now?
Yes.
And it disrupts the status quo.
Disrupt.

(52:13):
So five would be the debate.
It's the first between the first10 to 20 percent of your
screenplay or book.
It's when your character istrying to figure out if they
have to deal with it.
So it could be likeprocrastination.
denial avoidance so the littleboy and his brother pass the

(52:33):
blood curdling scream and thenthey're debating oh we should go
back we should tell mom no itwas probably nothing Dennis is
having thoughts and feelingsabout it and then they get to
school and they meet theirfriend group so that would be
part of the setup and they telltheir friends about it and they
all debate what to do so thatwould be like you're not sure

(52:55):
you're kind of going backwaffling to Totally.
And then so the reader or theaudience gets to try to tell you
what to do, right?
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In Dinner for Eight, it's likeshe's remembering all of these
things that have happened withhim and you don't quite know the
negative parts of it yet.

(53:16):
So it seems just kind of sexyand secretive.
And he's introduced himself asthough they didn't know each
other.
So then they have kind of a...
happening there does sheinternally think at all about
should I talk to him what shouldI do should I throw him out
should I tell my husband doesshe have those internal feelings

(53:38):
and then like do I tell myfriends that I know him no like
but then it's kind of sexybecause they're playing this
kind of game that only they knowyeah And I think if she's just
internally conflicted, then thatsort of like counts.
I think.
Oh, I think it definitelycounts.
And then I feel like when I inthe in the way it's written in

(53:59):
the book that I have in my hotlittle hands, it feels like it
definitely.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, great.
So you're like hitting all ofthese.
I know.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Okay.
Beat six is break into two,which I don't like that language
either.
So this happens at the 20% mark.
The characters go for it.
They leave their comfort zoneand enter the new world of act

(54:23):
two.
They move to a new city, theyget a new plan, a new identity,
and something sort of clicksinto motion and there's no going
back.
So I think like in this ghoststory example, all the kids
decide to skip out at lunchbreak and go back to the haunted
house.
Yeah.
Okay.

(54:44):
And then in Dinner for Eight,this is when Sam and the guy, he
follows her out onto the stairsand they have like a kind of hot
moment as he's walking away fromher as like should i pull him
upstairs and like take him to myroom right now because she's
like in that and she like itcompletely changes her headspace

(55:05):
of um like maybe this is what iwant and like she's hasn't quite
gotten to the negative parts yetshe's in it she's in it she's
trying she's like I don't reallycare what my husband thinks
anymore.
Oh my God.
She's, she's a baddie.
She's naughty.
So I, I get why this would fitinto the break into two because

(55:29):
the shiny new world or whatever,it's like they're finally
acknowledging each otherbasically.
Right.
So it's like, there's, it sortof feels like there's no going
back.
It's like, we've actually had amoment alone now.
Right.
Which changes the dynamic.
So, Number seven would be the Bstory, around 22%.

(55:49):
And this is when a relationshipsubplot enters.
And it might be a romance,friendship, mentor.
And it shows a different side ofyour main character.
So in our ghost story, there's agirl named Ashley that follows

(56:10):
the group down the street.
Are you going to actually writethis ghost story?
I like it.
No, I wrote it in the car.
So she's in love with Dennis.
And Dennis's friends don't wanther to come along.
because she's sort of a dork,and Dennis says that she can
come along and hang out withthem.

(56:30):
Okay, okay.
Okay, so that's the B story ofmy story.
And then my B story is theactual murder mystery game,
because that picks up at dinner.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, and which, you know, is afun part of the book, I think.
And it continues the story, butin a different, more, like...

(56:51):
Fun cat and mouse.
Right.
That's cool.
So your B story isn't like arelationship.
It's like a game.
Yeah.
Where all of the charactersreally get to come into play in
more fun ways.
Rather than.
Yeah.
Yeah.
More fun.
Which is like the next beat iseight fun and games.

(57:14):
So this is like from 20 to 50percent of the book.
So they call this the promise ofthe premise.
So when you watch the trailerfor this book or for this movie,
this would be a lot of what youwere seeing.

(57:34):
And this would be a lot of, youknow, the what's the line like
the the pitch of the book or thethe hook, the hook of the book.
So with the haunted house story,OK, that I'm that I made up.
It would be the kids likeexploring the house and a little

(57:57):
creek happens there and somebodykisses each other here and they
find a Ouija board there.
And it's like all the like thelittle fun stuff that's
happening in the house that thatwould be what you would see in
the trailer.
Yeah.
And that's a lot of the book.
It is.
Which is hard.
Like something I wanted tomention about this is a lot of

(58:19):
people when they're writingbooks, they talk about the mushy
middle.
And I don't know because Ihaven't read your book, but that
might be a little bit of what'smissing because you've reached
60,000 words.
And that's a little on the shortside, right?
It is a little on the shortside.
The mushy middle.
It's like you're getting, youknow what the plot is.
You're getting from a to be butthen you have to kind of like

(58:42):
fill it fill it out with stuffright with the fun and the game
so one thing that i've beenworking on is developing a few
of the other characters becausethere's you know three four
couples um and one coupledoesn't have a lot of play and i
really want that that couple tohave a little bit more play in

(59:02):
the book And so I'm trying to,that's what I'm, that's in my
editing process.
I'm going through and pickingspots where I think that they
could come in a little bit moreand show their personality more
and then show how they, becauseone of them comes majorly in at
the end.
So like, but so they just needto be more a part of that.
And so I've got to, I think thatthat's a chunk that needs to

(59:24):
really happen.
Okay.
Yeah, that's great.
So then nine is the midpoint.
at 50 of your book a twist areveal a thing that changes the
game um the stakes go up andplans shift so it's like holy
shit he's my brother or she wasdead the whole time so it's kind

(59:47):
of like the twist um do you doesyour book it does doesn't it has
a twist somebody actually dieswhoa Well, she's giving it to
us, folks.
Yeah, there's a legit murderthat happens.
Whoa.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a very dramaticmoment.
oh my god okay i can't wait toread that so in our ghost story

(01:00:11):
i don't think i got this far butum dennis's mom comes through
the door oh and it turns outthat she's been taking care of
this she's been taking care ofthis property all along oh wow
so denise oh denise and dennisoh my word i don't know how i'm
gonna make up the rest of thestory so 10 is the bad guys

(01:00:32):
close in i always think about iwas thinking I was thinking
about this a lot when I wrote mylast book.
It's like I wouldn't havethought about this stuff.
It's like you've kind ofinternalized these beats from
watching so many movies.
But it's really nice to see themlaid out.
So number 10 is bad guys closein between 50 and 75 percent.
Things unravel.
The enemies close in.

(01:00:54):
Your internal doubts flare.
Cracks widen.
Everything just feels...
fucked basically so somebodybetrays you or there's more bad
news or you're doingself-sabotage that kind of thing
yeah what's happening withdennis um i think it's just like
the haunting is probably gettingreally bad um mom okay his mom

(01:01:16):
or she like he doesn't knowwhere she went and and um ashley
is missing oh shit and she'spresumed um dead oh no ash um
because they saw her just beinglike pulled but from the room by
an unknown force and they alsosaw his little brother get

(01:01:38):
impaled on the fence by thething so things are getting
really bad yeah okay uh oh do weyeah uh in dinner for eight it's
a situation where they don'tknow who actually did it and
they're kind of trying to figureout what to do with this body.

(01:01:59):
And, and there's sort ofprobably like, obviously there's
a ticking clock because it'slike, there's a dead body in
your house.
Right.
But the game's over.
So the, all of the actors fromthe show, like from the show,
like the, the thing that theyput on for the murder mystery
party, they're all gone.
Do they know that that happened?
No.
The murder mystery.
Maybe not.

(01:02:20):
Maybe not.
Okay.
Or maybe one of them did it.
Yeah.
You don't really know.
You really, cause it's, youdon't know fully the timeline
because there's a blocking outsituation, but the, but then it
very much could be the husbandwho did it, but then he's
denying it.
Like it's a whole, then theyhave to kind of clean it up

(01:02:42):
together and figure out what todo.
Okay.
Crazy.
Yeah.
And then there's the all is lostbeat.
around 75% where the characterhits their lowest low.
They're crying on the bathroomfloor.
Somebody usually dies here, itsays.

(01:03:03):
Sometimes literally.
Or maybe they have to burn allthe stuff from cleaning it up.
Oh, is that what happens inyours?
Yeah.
Are they feeling like all islost?
Are they feeling really low?
yeah because they're like someof the friends have gone to bed

(01:03:23):
and they are they gonna have totell them in the morning will
they even remember that he wasthere because they had all been
drinking oh like they don't knowwhat to do okay um so dennis is
hiding in a closet crying hedoesn't know what to do he
doesn't know where any of hisfriends are

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:41):
um

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:43):
and then there's the number 12 is the dark night of
the soul So 75 to 80 percent.
It's like what's even the pointmoment.
It's like a beat of sadness andmaybe the character gains some
clarity.
Dark Night of the Soul.
I can just see so many like Ithink Judd Apatow's movies

(01:04:07):
really do these like I'mthinking of time.
Big time.
Right.
I'm thinking of like Amy Schumerhad that great movie.
train wreck and I'm rememberingwhen Bill Hader breaks up with
her and she's having her darknight of the soul when she's on
her couch like pigging outsmoking weed and just becoming a

(01:04:29):
complete slob and in the horrorstory this is actually the dark
night of the soul is Dennis iscrying in the closet but then
Ashley comes back in she's lyingShe's alive.
She crawls in there with him.
Hopefully she's alive when shegoes.

(01:04:51):
Oh, my God.
Oh, twist setting.
M.
Night Shyamalan, we're comingfor you.
M.
Night Shyamalan.
Yes, so in mine, then there's,like, a scene that's very
important where Sam, theprotagonist, like, really tries

(01:05:11):
to turn towards and, like,change out of her rigid ways and
like like and it's like a verypivotal moment between her and
another character and it's likevery sweet kind of sad and yeah
Right.

(01:05:33):
Right.
Right.
Right.

(01:06:00):
like lost herself right yeah uhin the beginning of the book
there's this scene in herbathroom where like it's like
pinnacle like she's so fuckinguptight and like can't see
around herself and then at thispoint in the story she's in her
bathroom again and like she canfeel like her all of this stuff

(01:06:24):
washing off of her body and likewatched it drip down her toes
into this shower drain oh yeahinteresting very symbolic yes
very symbolic i'm deep babyyou're deep oh by the way that
flamingo poem was so good ohgeez all right thanks so sorry

(01:06:46):
to go off topic but i justedited and posted episode or the
story time two episode of thispodcast and and i listened to
rachel's flamingo poem and nowonder people from your class
were saying that it was so deepand it was about your daughter's
femininity that is what it wasabout i know but like that's not

(01:07:06):
how i meant it when i wrote itjust it just came out i'm so
deep i don't even realize itkayla yeah so number 13 break
into three i hate this languagewhy does it oh i think because
it's calling like the three actsyeah um 80 you're 80 done and
there's a new plan they get upthey pull it together they're

(01:07:28):
gonna try again but this timesmarter with more heart and
probably with help from the bstory character

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:35):
So

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:35):
this is like this could be like a new montage
could happen, like if it werelike a heist movie or something.
But for the ghost story, it'slike Ashley encourages Dennis.
She has new information aboutthe ghost.
She's done.
They come up with a new plan andthey go back out into the house.
Yeah.
OK.
OK.
Mine is it's so the entire bookis happening one night thus far.

(01:07:59):
Now we're into a new this islike a month later.
they're in uh they're they'reskiing together they're like the
same group of friends it's alltogether they're skiing they're
like right and they're likestarting fresh in this new this
new night a new night it's a newnight oh they're not gonna play

(01:08:20):
a game no they learn theirlesson holy shit okay um so beat
14 is the finale 80 to 99percent of your book or or
screenplay so this is your finalshowdown and it has to prove
that your character has changedit's the payoff so they use the

(01:08:44):
knowledge that they maybe theyuse the knowledge they've gained
from act one or they make peacewith the past they defeat the
villain kiss the beast storywhatever it is it ties up the
emotional arc and the plot arcyes And you probably don't want
to say how they do that,obviously, right?
I can say a little bit.
I'm not going to say whatactually happens at the end

(01:09:05):
because I think that's obviouslycrucially left out.
But Sam, she's like kind of,she's relaxed.
It like shows that she'srelaxed.
She's like figuring it out.
Like she's figuring out how tobecome more of like who she
wants to be.
And then...

(01:09:28):
maybe

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:29):
somebody something happened

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:31):
okay now um in the finale of the ghost story they
defeat the ghost dennis andashley and the mom And then so
for the cat beat sheet, thefinal image at 100% of your
story is the after shot.
It's the opposite of the openingimage, a little wink that shows

(01:09:52):
us how far they've come.
So they're no longer lonely orbroke or a disaster, or they
are, but they're choosing itnow.
Um, like if the, if your bookwas truly like coming full
circle, like in the way a JuddApatow movie would or whatever,
it might be either she's takingthe train or whatever, or it

(01:10:14):
would be like, she's walkingthrough her house, but her house
like looks different now.
And she feels different now.
And maybe her friends are justkind of dropping by and maybe
her husband is grabbing her assand like, whatever.
Yeah.
that would be the um the finalimage probably for your book if
you were doing it like thatdon't you think uh yes i'm it

(01:10:36):
which is very pat like i'm notsaying yeah no um it happens but
in a much different way okayyeah it's yeah i'm sure it's i'm
sure it's there i just

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:49):
i don't

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:49):
want to say yeah i mean it's just it's just
interesting to think about likeif you're If you're ending your
book in a certain way and youcan just change the setting or
the people in it or whatever tokind of bring things back around
to make the reader or the personwatching just feel more, I don't

(01:11:12):
know, feel full, feel closure.
then that could be a good way todo it.
Or you could totally go awayfrom this because this has been
done so many times.
But I think it is a goodscaffolding scaffolding for your
story.
And I like to like, look, lookat it, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I recommend save the cat, butI wouldn't do it too strictly.

(01:11:36):
Yeah.
And if you don't do it, don'tworry about not doing it because
then you're doing something moreunique.
Well, what was interesting is soyou had brought up Save the Cat
like in one of our firstepisodes.
And then we did that luncheonthing with the Tony.
Tony?
What's his name, Tony?
Andy.
Andy.
And he brings it up.

(01:11:57):
And all of the women in thegroup, like the woman who was
hosting it and interviewing him,was like, no, not Saves the Cat.
Like, it was, like, offensive toher that he brought it up.
Yeah.
But he, as an editor, orpublisher, editor?
He's an agent, but he alsoedits.
Oh, agent, but he edits.
Yeah, yeah.
Like...
you could tell like he was likebut it's good like you could

(01:12:20):
tell on his face he's like it'sit's what we're looking for and
he she cut him off in a way thathe but he's the one who brought
it up and he's like these arethe ways to get things done and
um so i think that of course youdon't have to follow it and
obviously there's many authorsout there who fully disagree um

(01:12:42):
but I mean, I feel like that wasan important little thing to
have caught in that luncheon.
That writers might poo-poo it,but agents and editors might be
like, well, this is a reallygood recipe for a satisfying,

(01:13:03):
entertaining book.
Right.
And in the Save the Cat bookthat I have in my hand for
movies, He talks about how he'llliterally go to a screenplay and
flip to a certain page.
And if it's not hitting it, thenhe's like, well, you don't know.
Within two pages on either sideof what he's talking about.

(01:13:30):
And I feel like, well, I don'tknow anything about the process
of getting an agent because Ihave not tried.
It sounds like that's kind ofwhat they do too, is they flip
to a page and if it's notgrabbing them, that's it.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah, it's sad because they'llget you to send in the first
five or 15 pages of your book.

(01:13:53):
And sometimes it hasn't gottentoo exciting yet.
Right.
And so people will say, oh,start with a bang.
Right.
You know, and that's how you getlike your agent.
But is that how you want yourbook necessarily to like every
book shouldn't start with likethe ceiling caving in?
Like not every book is likethat.
But maybe what you can do isstart with a bang.

(01:14:14):
And then once you get the agent,be like, OK, well, actually,
maybe we should start with this.
Right.
I don't know.
I don't have an agent.
But OK, just before we end,because I think this has been
pretty long.
But yeah.
Rachel challenged me to followup with that Canadian agent.
Oh, yes.
I can't wait to hear.

(01:14:35):
The guy that I called myshooting star, Jake Babette.
So I did.
I did follow up with him.
And I couldn't believe that hedidn't get back to me after I
followed up with him.
So it was.
Yeah, I just.
Well, last time he got back toyou within a week.

(01:14:55):
Yeah.
And it's summer and I know hehas kids and stuff.
And his thing had saidoriginally that it could take up
to six months.
Yes.
And you know what?
I don't know if I should havebeen more professional in the
email or not.
I just sent him like a prettychill one.
I said, following up on pillowforts down.
Hi, Jake.

(01:15:17):
Did you have a chance to look atmy manuscript?
I would say your baby is cute,but it looks like you haven't
updated your Instagram in aboutthree years.
Happy face.
I hope your summer is off to agreat start.
Talk soon.
Kayla Ogden.
And then my phone number.
I just kept it chill, but hehasn't gone back to me.
That was only 10 days ago.
And I actually think the factthat he hasn't gotten back to me

(01:15:39):
is a good sign because I thinkthat if he had already dismissed
me, he could just so easily belike, Oh, right, right, right.
That chick.
Okay.
Reply.
Right.
So I am feeling like this meansthat he hasn't, that he's
undecided.
Well, your casual email feelsvery responsible.
You know, it's not like, like itfeels like, do you want to be my

(01:16:01):
agent?
Yes or no?
Right.
So I do.
I think that you're on the righttrack by staying positive
because it's, it would have beenreally easy to say like kick
rocks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He probably has a, you know, anemail he just sent.
So I'm okay with that.
I didn't follow up with thisother lady that asked to read my

(01:16:21):
full because I just, I don'tknow.
I don't think that she's theone.
And then I haven't queriedanybody since June 20th.
So that's not that long ago.
20 days ago I did.
And then before that, it was the1st of May.
So I'm just, it's like I'veforgotten about this whole book
I wrote and I'm just not even,it's because this part sucks.

(01:16:43):
But yeah, I'll keep you guysupdated.
Great.
Keep us updated.
Okay.
All right.
Well, it's been real.
Okay.
Save the cat or don't.
Bye.
Bye.