"Show Don’t Tell" debunked

This week we go full craft-nerd. Kayla shares how adding interiority (yes, telling!) is transforming Pillow Forts Down, and we break down the long-misunderstood “show, don’t tell” rule—from Chekhov to Hemingway’s iceberg theory—and land on a modern balance: show and tell. We walk through quick edit tools (for every scene: desire, fear, misbelief), why character expectations create delicious reversals, and how to build emotional dynamic change in scenes (with detours through Little Women adaptations, Friends, and a murderous “Gertrude” example).

Rachel celebrates an Honorable Mention from Reader’s Digest for “Extra Scoop of Revenge,” we read our Two Sentences entries, and Kayla talks printing the manuscript and aiming at Book Pipeline. Next week: Storytime (Scott & MJ’s “switcheroo” poems + Blair’s pieces).

Send us your short fiction or poems to be featured—and please rate, review, and, as the YouTubers say, smash that subscribe button.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Kayla Ogden.
And I'm Rachel Sear.
And this is Write Your HeartOut.

SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Woo-hoo!

SPEAKER_02 (00:07):
So last episode was so much fun doing a story time
where we had Scott Gibson and MJsend in their poems.

SPEAKER_03 (00:15):
Yeah, that was great.
It was great.
Not only did we really enjoy it,but we got feedback from both of
them.
Yes they loved it.

SPEAKER_02 (00:22):
And and then Scott suggested that they do a
switcheroo.
So Scott and MJ don't know eachother.
So they kind of talk through usand they and Scott said, I'll
write a poem about Elon, and shecan write a poem about young
love.
And then MJ said, Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 (00:40):
She's like super excited about it.
And was like, I'll have a poemin a couple days.
She had just gone through abreakup, so she's like, I got
locked and loaded.
Things are things are beaten inthat heart.
She didn't say that.
She didn't say that.
She didn't.

SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Oh, really?
Okay.
I couldn't have guessed.
Well, yeah, so she and she'syoung, so that would have been
young love, right?
Absolutely.
Yep.
So that's the assignment.
Aw, all her love is young love,MJ.
So that was awesome.
And I'm so excited that they'redoing the switcheroo, and
hopefully Scott will be done hisby the next time we record.

(01:17):
And um another writer, BlairWeber, sent in some poems.
She's been my friend since gradetwo.
That's great.
And we've been kind of on like awriting journey together.
So I'm really excited to hearher poems.
She recorded them, which that'sthat's kind of what I prefer.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32):
Yeah, I think hearing them in their voice with
their cadence is key.

SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
Yes.
Yeah.
And maybe we'll even get somemore to share.
Maybe we'll even get a story toshare, hopefully.
We'll see if uh you guys sendsomething in.
Okay, we have to acknowledge thefact that Rachel Sear won one of
the contests that she enteredthat we've been talking about
this whole time.

SPEAKER_03 (01:53):
It's so weird.
I had it was one of the ones Iforgot that I had even sent it
in.
Um, which is like, of course, ofcourse, it was the one that I
wasn't even in, it wasn't evenin my like thought process.
It's pretty exciting.
Reader's Digest.

SPEAKER_02 (02:08):
Congratulations.
Reader's Digest is so legit.

SPEAKER_03 (02:11):
I think so.
You know, like I saw it and Iwas like, this can't be real.
There are it must be like an ad,like they're just trying to sell
me something.
And then I went to submittable,which is how I submitted it, and
saw like, nope, that is true.
And then I went to Reader'sDigest and like I didn't win top
prize, you know, and I didn'teven win runner up, but um, it's

(02:32):
just an honorable mention, whichI still think is pretty cool.
I think that's because they hadlike 4,000 people that
submitted.
No.
And so my name and this title ofmy story, which was Extra Scoop
of Revenge.

SPEAKER_02 (02:45):
Yes.
Which episode did we read thoseon?

SPEAKER_03 (02:48):
I think that was the second story time.
I think our first story time wasLarry, right?
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Larry.
And then our second one, we wechose prompts because we were
trying out that that site thatwe both decided not to submit
to.

SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
Oh, it was Readsy Prompted.

SPEAKER_03 (03:05):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
And Rachel's story ended up winning an honorable
mention in Reader's Digest,which is crazy.
And you didn't even send it intothe Readsy Prompted.
Maybe it would have won thewhole thing.
Maybe it would have.
I mean because that's way lessstories than were submitted to
Reader's Digest.

SPEAKER_03 (03:23):
Right.
I mean, but it is also sosubjective on who's reading it,
right?
That's true.
Like, there's no way to know.
There's no, like, why evenspeculate?
I think it's pretty cool.
And they sent me a little, youknow, quote unquote badge to put
under my signature on thingsthat's like award winner with
Reader's Digest.
So I threw that up on ourwebsite because I was like, Oh,

(03:43):
good.

SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
Look at me go.
Yeah, I mean, now it's like umwrite your heart out, hosted by
Kayla Ogden and award-winningstoryteller Rachel Sear.

SPEAKER_03 (03:53):
Um, I mean, it definitely was a nice little
boost to my ego.
I'm like, oh, I'm just writingfor fun.
There's there's a dad who isoften walking with me towards
school at the same time, andhe's a writer.
And he, you know, like he wentto school.
His MFA was about on creativewriting.
And like Was he the one thatasked you, how can you not know

(04:14):
where this story is?

SPEAKER_02 (04:15):
No, different different dad.
Okay, so you'd be talking to allthe dads about your writing.

SPEAKER_03 (04:20):
Yeah, I guess so.
Well, they ask what I do, youknow, and I'm like, well, you
know, stay-at-home mom doesn'treally feel right because I do
have my hand in so many pots.
That's a different topic.
But this guy's a writer and hedoes write professionally, but
not um any fiction anymore.
So we were talking about, I waslike, oh, well, I'm kind of a
writer, but like not as much ofa writer as you, clearly,

(04:42):
because you did your MFA.
But now I'm like, well, I guess,you know, our first episode, I
was like, I don't think I canqualify myself as a writer yet.
When I when someone asks me whatI do, I can also say I'm a
writer now.

SPEAKER_02 (04:55):
Oh.

SPEAKER_03 (04:55):
So like I feel like I've graduated.

SPEAKER_02 (04:58):
Oh my gosh, congratulations.
Thank you.
I feel like you're leaving me inthe dust.
No uh to just I just to makethis about me.
Um at first, when I heard, I'lladmit I felt a little bit
jealous.
Oh, well, I would probably feelthe same way.
But then, you know, I gazed atmy navel for a few hours and

(05:21):
decided that actually what Iwanted to feel and what I now
feel is have you heard ofcompersion?
No, give it to me.
So compersion is a word thatpolyamorous people use.
Oh look at us when their partnerhas a lover, okay, and they see
their partner being in love andhappy with someone else, okay,

(05:44):
there's a way to look at that asa human and not feel
overwhelming and inferno ofjealousy just incinerating your
bones, like I think I would feelif I saw my husband being in
love with someone else.
Like that is like the seventhlayer of hell.
But people who are made forthese open relationships,
polyamorous relationships, saythat they feel something called

(06:07):
compersion.
It's like unselfish joy andempathy when they look at their
partner's happiness with anotherperson.
So it's like winning an awardfor writing.
I want to be with that.
And at first, when I watched youbeing with it and falling in
love with it, I felt rage.

(06:28):
Okay, I'm lying.
I didn't, I never did I feelrage.
I felt like a little twinge oflike, oh dang, like I didn't win
anything yet.

SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
Well, sure.

SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
Um But now I've evolved as a human and now I
feel compersion.
I feel happy for you is mylong-winded way of saying that.

SPEAKER_03 (06:44):
I'm glad that you've compurged.

SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
Um I fully compurge with you.

SPEAKER_03 (06:50):
Um I feel like it's completely normal and like, you
know, what is normal?
I don't know.
But it's like yeah, and and alsolike I would totally feel the
same way, you know, like I wouldjustify, be like, well, you
she's been writing a lot longerthan me.
You know, like I would if it wasyou, and I'd be like, I I would
totally be like I would totallybe like, you know, like trying

(07:14):
to make myself feel okay.

SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
You know what?
We're like Venus and SerenaWilliams.
So yeah, sure.
We're just like them.
I've yeah, we're we're just likethem.
I'm Venus, I am the one thatstarted first, and you're
Serena, and you be coming inhere and eclipsing me.

SPEAKER_03 (07:29):
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 (07:30):
But I'm compurging very well for the record.
To in all seriousness,congratulations.
You deserve it.
And I know, like I told you thatthat story was really cool.

SPEAKER_03 (07:43):
You did, you did.
You saw more in it than I did,for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (07:46):
Yeah, you just have a really great knack for showing
like relationships and reallyfun dialogue, and then the plot
just really like skipped alongand it was very satisfying at
the end.

SPEAKER_03 (07:58):
So if anybody wants to listen to her award-winning
story, if you haven't listenedto it yet, the storytime number
two, which is um where we decidenot to submit.

SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
I think that I think the name is Storytime Two,
Stories That Were Too Good forRazy.
Clearly, yeah.
And that this one has MJ'sClouds and Rachel's Flamingo
poem, which I also think youshould definitely submit to
something, because that one isreally good.

SPEAKER_03 (08:23):
Yeah, P I Okay I'll give it a shot because I need to
start trusting other people'sopinions that that's a good
that's a good poem.

SPEAKER_02 (08:30):
Um, and then on the topic of contests, yes.
I submitted two sentences to theRights of November thing.

SPEAKER_03 (08:40):
Me too.
I was scraping in on thatassignment right as you walk
through the door.
Yep.
And uh because you reminded meso wonderfully yesterday that
it's due today.
Do you want to share what yoursentences are?

SPEAKER_02 (08:53):
Sure.
I'm sharing two sentences frommy manuscript, Pillow Forts
Down, that I've been editing.
These aren't my favoritesentences, these are just ones
that have come up so far in myediting.
But yeah, I thought I would Ikind of like these ones, so here
goes.
Her mother's stilettos clickedagainst the tiles, a sound that
faded as she moved down thehall.

(09:13):
Lonnie hated to admit it, butsometimes there was no sweeter
sound than her mother walkingaway.

SPEAKER_03 (09:18):
Ooh, I like that.
Got it.
Especially since I know Lonnieand her mom's relationship.
You know, I I mean I stillhaven't finished your book, but
like maybe don't finish it.

SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
So where you just read the first part.

SPEAKER_03 (09:29):
Oh yeah, I'm only in the first.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
Okay.
Okay, I can pause.
Pause because after my edits,it's gonna be so much better.
Okay.
Okay.
I'll pause.
Okay, so then what did you sendsentences from and what were the
sentences?

SPEAKER_03 (09:40):
As you all know, I printed out dinner for eight to
do my edits.
And I am now about a quarter waythrough the book, editing-wise.
I decided I was just gonna flipopen to a random page and pick
the two most exciting sentenceson the page.

SPEAKER_02 (09:54):
Oh my gosh, you're so willy-nilly.
I am, you know, just is thatyour middle name?
Rachel willy-nilly Sear.

SPEAKER_03 (10:01):
Well, Willie is a family name.

unknown (10:03):
It is.
It is.

SPEAKER_03 (10:06):
It's my son's middle name.
It's my older brother's name aswell, and my grandpa's name is
William.
Oh, that's so cute, Willy.
So let's go with it.
Rachel willy-nilly.
Okay, so dinner for eight.
This this is the ones I justwent with on this page.
Well, there's nothing more to dothan just die, I suppose.
I slide myself down the wall inthe same place where Kyle had

(10:28):
left me.

SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
What the hell?
Oh my god, that happens.
Wait, is she gonna die?

SPEAKER_03 (10:33):
Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (10:35):
Sam?

SPEAKER_03 (10:36):
I don't know.
You're gonna have to find out.
Somebody dies.
I can tell you that for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (10:41):
I can't even deal with it.
You have to finish it.

unknown (10:45):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (10:46):
So you're three quarters of the way through?

SPEAKER_03 (10:48):
No, I'm a quarter of the way through editing.
I'm just a quarter of the way.

SPEAKER_02 (10:51):
Yeah, but I uh This is taking you way longer than
writing it.

SPEAKER_03 (10:54):
It really is.
But it's because as I'm goingthrough, I made so many notes as
I was going on things thatneeded to be added, character
development.
So, like, it's you know, thingsthat are happening in the book.
I gotta beef it up.
Beef.
I needed to add the beef.
It needs beef.
Yeah, less sausage, more beef.
Okay, I'll stop with thesausage.

(11:17):
Okay.
Okay, so my printout, printingthings out.

SPEAKER_02 (11:20):
You took a tip from the Rachel pot, and yeah, I was
like, okay, I need I'm gonnaedit my book in the next, you
know, two weeks, and then I'mgonna send the manuscript in.
So I really want to submit it tothis book pipeline unpublished
contest, which is the deadlineis like on the 25th.
So I was like, okay, I'm gonnaread through my whole manuscript

(11:44):
and just yeah, make notes andstuff like that and sort of try
to see it as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (11:49):
I got really gung-ho and I was like, ugh, and I got
on the Staples website and I waslike and then it I was like, but
I need it now.
And so I was like, I'm gonna payan extra$20 to get it couriered
to my house in the next twohours because I need to do this
now.
And then whatever, it came and Istarted reading it, and
immediately I thought of wholesentences to change.

(12:10):
So then I opened up my computerand I started changing them on
there, and like basically I justcan't do it.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (12:16):
Interesting, interesting.
Like the book is just sort offlopped there.
Well, well, hold on, hold on.
How did it feel holding it inyour hand though?

SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
Oh, it felt amazing, and it's so big, it's like
double, double-sided, and it'slike it's huge.
It feels like such a bigaccomplishment.
I had let it just I put it in adrawer for a long time and I
wasn't feeling very great aboutit.
But after going to that writer'sgroup and talking about the hook
of the book and everyone beingso excited about it, I was like,

(12:44):
actually, that was a fuckingcool book.
Yeah.
So I've been editing, and onthis episode, I want this to be
like sort of a craft episode.
Yeah.
So the meat of this episode isnot sausage.
The meat of this episode iswriting craft.
So get ready to kind of likenerd out with us about like how

(13:08):
to edit, essentially.
I was getting the sense that mybeta readers weren't connecting
with my characters.
And I'm like, I think I have agood plot.
I think I'm a clear writer, butI've sacrificed a lot by being
afraid of writing like purpleprose.
Sure, sure.
Being overly floral with my, youknow, and cringy with these like

(13:29):
poetic, gorgeous sentences orwhatever, and just exasperating
the reader.
And I was afraid of telling thereader too much rather than
putting everything in the scene.
Right, okay.
So I want to break this down alittle bit for people who are
newer to the craft of writing.
A rule of writing that getstossed around a lot is show,
don't tell.

(13:50):
And it turns out that thisstarted with Chekhov in Russia,
who believed that giving vividdetails to the reader so they
could just close their eyes andimagine a scene, that that was
the best way of doing it ratherthan just telling the person how
everybody felt or why they werethere or you know what they
wanted.
You were supposed to just lookat the details of this scene and

(14:13):
the action.
So Chekhov kind of started thewhole show don't tell thing, but
then Hemingway really got intoit.
He even had like this icebergtheory that says.

SPEAKER_03 (14:24):
Oh, have you heard of this?
Of course.
That was a huge part of ourcreative writing class.

SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
Oh my god.
Okay, I've never heard of this.
So he had this iceberg theorythat said only a small portion
of the story should be explicit,with most of the story being
like under the sea oressentially filled in by the
reader's imagination andinterpretation.

SPEAKER_03 (14:46):
Right.
And a really great way to dothat is with dialogue.
You know, like these two peopleor a group of people are having
this conversation, and you don'tneed to necessarily set the full
scene because you can feel somuch from the way that they're
talking to each other or likesetting the tone of it.
Um, like that's a great way toallow like people to use their

(15:09):
own imagination just with thatdialogue, you know, flowing.

SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
I believed that this was the key to good writing, and
I followed it implicitly.
In my book, I never once in thethird person chapters of
characters ever said directlyhow they felt or what they
wanted.

SPEAKER_03 (15:27):
Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
I just showed it.
Yeah.
Even though I thought I waswriting in third person close,
say Lonnie is one of mycharacters.
I never said Lonnie's mouth wasso dry, she looked around for a
glass of water, she feltdesperate, she whatever.
I would just be like, Lonnie ranto the sink and grabbed a cup
and turned on the tap and filledit.

(15:49):
And then you have to just likethat.
I just thought that's how youwere supposed to write.
Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
Um I mean, well, this this this correlates with
what you've said before, wherelike you thought that sharing
too much inner dialogue was anegative.
Where this was our Emily umEsbatch.

SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Alison Esbatch did the wedding teacher.

SPEAKER_03 (16:09):
There we go.
Yes, there we go.
Espach.
Yeah, I had the name, right?

SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
The last name.

SPEAKER_03 (16:13):
But she has so much internal dialogue, and then you
were saying that that was soforeign to you.
And this lines up perfectly.

SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
And it was fascinating.
Her book was a huge hit, and itwasn't boring at all.
So with my book, I thought,well, the reader should know
that Lonnie wants to get outfrom under the claws of her
emotionally and financiallyabusive stage mother.
Like they should just know thatshe wants to get out of there
because you see how strong of achokehold the mother has over

(16:43):
Lonnie through the scenes wherethey're having an argument.
And then we see that Lonniewants to quit modeling, and then
we see her get a different joband start saving up for her own
apartment.
So the reader can interpret thatand say Lonnie wants to get out
from under her mother's control.
But I never had Lonnie actuallythinking about that.

(17:03):
Sure.
I think that as I've been goingthrough the manuscript, I've
been adding in the telling, andthe way that you can tell
something can be so beautiful,emotional, surprising, and
unique.
Or it can be juststraightforward, but done
correctly, I think it bonds thereader to the character.

(17:25):
Yes, I think so.
And it validates the reader forinterpreting correctly.
Totally.
Or it surprises the reader bybeing unexpected.

SPEAKER_03 (17:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
So um, I have an example of how this could work.
Sure.
Say um there's a character, it'sa woman, a wife.
Her name is uh like Gertrude.
Okay.
So I just came up with thisexample.
So she's come, she comes intoher home and she comes across
the dead body of her spouse onthe living room floor.
We can show her backing out ofthe room, frantically finding

(17:58):
her cell phone and calling 911,right?
So you've seen this scene.
That's what we wrote.

SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
And then we could move on to the next scene.
And you would interpret hercoming across her husband's body
as you wished, right?
Or, so that would be shcompletely showing.
Or we could say Gertrude wassurprised by how violently her
body was reacting to the sightof her husband lying there, just
where she had planned for him tobe, and just as dead as she had

(18:28):
hoped.
So that would be like asurprising way of telling.
You would never interpret thatthe showing of that scene unless
you had something prior in thework.
But if you just see her come inand then be so startled and be
so shaky and find it and call911, you would just think, oh my
gosh, she's completely sure.
And so that's one way of tellingthat would surprise the reader.

(18:50):
Or you could say, Gertrude wasterrified that the killer was
still in the house, but sheclawed her way through that fear
to go for the phone instead ofrunning out the door, she
couldn't leave Marty alone.
She would wait by his body, shewould hold on to his hand.
Now you know this character tobe brave and selfless and
complete like a best friend toher spouse.

(19:12):
You're showing the action of thestory, and then you're telling
the reader how to interpret it.
Right.
And I think that in this day andage, with our generation and the
generations under us, that'swhat we like.
You know, writing used to be sodifferent in the classics.

SPEAKER_03 (19:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (19:30):
Those books are very different from what we're
reading now.
They are.
And they're great.
I love the classics, you know.
Give me some Bronte sisters,like I'm all about it.
But they wrote differently thanus, and in the modern day,
people want to be shown andtold.
That's what I believe.
I think that that's probablypretty accurate.
Yeah, I mean, maybe there's Ithink there's genres like

(19:51):
action-packed stuff.
Sure.
That it's like, you know, a manwith a very uh particular set of
skills or whatever drugstore,paperback, that thing that comes
like four of them come out ayear that are great in their own
right, but aren't aboutemotional conflict as much.
Right.
And I think those books you justshow, like, but that's not what

(20:14):
I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 (20:15):
Right.
Well, I think I mean there'sdefinitely a lot of the
classics, they want room forinterpretation because they're
more poetic, like poeticallywritten, where like it it's
supposed to evoke emotion andyou're supposed to allow the
reader their own interpretationa little bit more.
I don't like that.
I don't like and I and that's myyou know my whole beef with

(20:36):
poetry, you know.
I although I am coming around, Igotta say.
But I don't like it when it'sleft up to interpretation.
I don't I feel like I couldinterpret it wrong.
And there's a lot of older booksspecifically that I think I'm
like, well, what was I supposedto get from this?
Because like tell me what I wassupposed to get.
And I and I do, I appreciate inwriting, uh showing and telling,

(20:58):
working together, you know, intandem.

SPEAKER_02 (21:00):
Yeah, I could imagine like back in the day
before television.
Sure, exactly.
You know, the internet, likeanything, a new book comes out
by Hemingway, and all the richpeople go and get one, and then
they read it, and then they sitby the fire and they think about
it, and then they read it again,and then they have their friends
over for a salon where they alldiscuss it and whatever.

SPEAKER_03 (21:21):
So regal.

SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
Like it's like I feel like that was more the vibe
back then.
Yes, I think so.
Where now it's like we'reflipping through a book as fast
as we can until like three inthe morning, and then we're
going on TikTok and seeing whatother people thought about it
and watching them like cry, likeclutching the book or whatever.
Like it's just different vibes.
God, that sounds horrible.
Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 (21:41):
Just I wouldn't like, I don't want to I would
never watch that.
If you're gonna cla cry andclutch a book, I'm not, I'm not
your audience.

SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
So what I've been doing is I'm going back and I'm
just adding interiority and it'smaking the book so much better.
Oh good.
I have it.
I love that for you.
I've cracked the code.
Yeah.
Because the people who got backto me, the agents who got back
to me, they're like, I like thehook, I like the plot, I like

(22:13):
the writing.
Like you're a clear writer, butI don't know, it's just missing
something.
Sure.
But this is what it's missing,you guys.
Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_03 (22:20):
I'm excited.
I'm glad that you've stopped mein my tracks and I can wait for
version two.

SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
Yes.
And then there's a couple otherlike little tricks that I'm
using as I'm editing that I wantto share in case you're kind of
in the same or any not you.
Maybe you.
Maybe me.
Oh, you are editing your book.
I am.
But yours already has all thisshit, but um well, that's not
necessarily true.
You've only read a f the firstquarter.
Oh right.
Oh my gosh, I can't wait.
So another thing that I'm doingas I'm editing is which this is

(22:49):
making the scenes a lot morelike dynamic and realistic.
So what I'm doing in eachchapter is the main characters
in the chapter, I'm just quicklywriting out what is their
desire, what is their fear, andwhat is their misbelief.
Yeah, we've talked about thisbefore.

SPEAKER_03 (23:07):
Oh, we did?
Well, just very not in this.
I think it was in with say thecat.
Every character has to have areason to be there.
It's the the gun.
If you're gonna bring the gun,it's gotta be, you know, you
have to be ready to fire itsituation.
Um, but with with humans, youknow, like if they're gonna be
there, what is their fear?
What are they hoping to do?
What are you know, like theyhave to have a purpose there?

SPEAKER_02 (23:29):
Yes, I've just made that clear to myself, and once I
make that clear to myself, itaffects the dialogue, totally,
and it affects their tone andtheir movements and everything.

SPEAKER_03 (23:40):
Yeah, I really like that idea.

SPEAKER_02 (23:42):
Because when you just pants a book, you shouldn't
really be thinking about all ofthis stuff all the time.
Like it's like when you'repantsing, it's such a free,
flowing, separate kind ofexperience that I just think
that you don't really want toslow down and be like, okay,
well, what's her misbelief rightnow?
It's like you just want to seewhere things go.
Sure.
And that's a really magicaltime.

(24:04):
But when you're going back overyour draft, I think that's a
really good time to do this, andit's been helping me.
Another one is when we walkaround in life, humans, we
always have an expectation outof everything, every place that
we are, every moment in time, wehave an expectation.
I expect that Rachel's gonnakeep on sitting here and she's
good in her closet with me, andshe's gonna have a great

(24:27):
conversation with me aboutwriting.
And if something disrupts that,I'm gonna be disappointed.
I might be like kind of annoyed.
Right.
Depending on what happens, Imight be scared, you know, like
it'll evoke something.
It'll evoke something, and thereader will see that change.
So, for example, with Gertrude,she's the woman who finds her

(24:47):
husband dead on the floor in herliving room.
If she's going to walk into herhouse, right, what is her
expectation?
You should establish that forthe reader so that they can see
that change between her going inand what she finds there.
So you could have her going inand oh, actually it's her
birthday, and her husband hasn'tbeen getting back to her today,

(25:09):
and he's she thinks he's beenacting kind of weird lately.
And she's like, Okay, they aretotally having a surprise party
for my me right now.

SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (25:16):
So now that affects how she walks in the room,
right?
Now she's she's coming in alittle cautiously, she's looking
around, she's going, Hello.
Right, you know, and then shelike bounces into the living
room, like, where are you guys?
And then damn.
And then now you've got thislike roller coaster, or she's
she thinks that he's gonna bedead in there.

(25:38):
So now how does she enter theroom?
Right.
And then it surprises her thatshe's actually having like this
physical, like scary reaction tosomething that she was
expecting.
So when two characters collide,what are each of them expecting
from their day at that point?
And how is that being disrupted?

SPEAKER_03 (25:54):
Yeah.
I like that.
Yeah.
I think I'm gonna definitelykeep that in mind as I keep
editing because I've got eightcharacters, nine at play.
Yes.
Technically, I have 11characters at play.
It's hard to keep track of that,you know?
So I I feel like using thattechnique that you just said of
like even like writing down atthe beginning of each chapter
who are who's at play and whatare their intentions and what

(26:16):
are they expecting to see likewhat needs to be dove into more
of like how to keep that rollercoaster on its ups and downs.

SPEAKER_02 (26:25):
Yes.
Yeah, I think that's that'sgonna be really good, and that's
maybe that's part of like theiceberg, right?
Like maybe you explicitly sayit, or maybe it just shows up in
the dialogue and the way thatthe characters are moving.
Right.
Like, I think, for example,there's the one woman in the
version that I read, she bringsSam's ex to the party, right?

(26:45):
Right.
She's a really interestingcharacter for me because what is
she expecting?
Totally.
Okay, so she doesn't expect thatSam is gonna know this guy.
Right.
How does she think that her wifeis gonna react to this?
Like, is she is she nervous oror is she the kind of person who
she wants to stir the pot?
Um, is she proud that she's withthis guy?

(27:06):
Is she sort of ashamed and likehiding behind him?
Like, what's her expectation ofhow people are gonna react to
her walking in with this guy?

SPEAKER_03 (27:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
You're like smirking like you know all of this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 (27:17):
Yeah, but she's like so toxic, and but like not but
in such like an oblivious way.
Her character really is wild.
She's a wild rad.

SPEAKER_02 (27:29):
There's another character in there that I think
knowing his expectations wouldbe fun, which was there's a guy,
I think he might be a bit ofcomic relief, like he wears like
a funny hat, or like he's he'sgoing all in, right?
Frank.
Frank.
Okay.
What is Frank expecting?
Sure, right?
Is he expecting that everyone isgonna be as into their

(27:51):
characters as he is?
And when they're not, is he kindof annoyed by that and like oh
come on, or like does he expecteverybody to get fall on their
face drunk?
Is this the first time he hasbeen out to a party in a month
because he's so bogged down withwork and he just wants to have a
good time and all this dramacomes up and he's just
exasperated and he's like, Let'sjust have a fucking drink.

(28:11):
How does his character react toeverything could be really
funny, yeah, based on like whathis expectations and what his
desire and his misbeliefs are.
So I think having that manycharacters in the story and
knowing all of the stuff aboutthem would make it so rich and
fun.

SPEAKER_03 (28:29):
I think it's pretty rich and fun.
But I'm excited to use thesetechniques and like really dive
into each one a little bit moreto just keeping these in mind as
I'm editing because um I thinkthat there's a few characters
that progress the story.
So I know that they're needed,but they don't have the level of

(28:51):
depth where you really careabout them.
They need a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
Yeah.
Sometimes with like a murdermystery, everybody's so I I
literally don't know what goeson in your book.
Um it's probably already fuckingperfect because you're such a
good writer.
But I think find sometimes inmurder mysteries, it's at the
end, it's the one character thatbasically wasn't a character
because they were just sort oflike off to the side.

(29:15):
And so it's like you would neverexpect them because you barely
even know that they were eventhere.
You're like, oh right, there wasthat other couple, okay.
Like, um, and I think thatthere's sort of like this
balance with mysteries where thereader doesn't want to figure it
out in the second chapterbecause they don't then they're
bored, right?

(29:36):
Right.
It feels worn out, it's alreadybeen done.
Why even bother reading this?
But I know people, these arepeople who they have big egos
when it comes to theirintelligence.
If they can't figure it out bythe end of the book, they get
pissed off and think that it's abad book.

SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
Yeah, I've definitely heard people who talk
like that.

SPEAKER_02 (29:56):
Which I think is so silly.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like sorry.
She got you.
Sorry.
But also, sometimes that's validbecause if it's like actually,
after all this stuff, everysingle thing that I put in this
story was actually a redherring.
Because who it really was wasMelinda, the guy's state that we

(30:18):
literally haven't seen on thepage once in this whole book.

SPEAKER_03 (30:21):
It's like I'll write something down real quick
because you just gave me anidea.

SPEAKER_02 (30:25):
So I think there's a balance.
I think what people want is tofigure it out the end of the
book 10 pages before it ends.
And I think they want the twist,which is more in the middle, to
be a surprise.
Sure.
But this is all like veryformulaic.
And in my view, as a pantser, Iwouldn't want that in my head as
I was figuring out what thestory was.

(30:47):
Right.
But looking at your work as awhole, if it's a mystery, being
like, where is the twist?
And what have I dropped in thatthey can now look back and go,
oh, like that seems soinsignificant that Frank went
into the freezer and got out themint chip ice cream and was just
eating it with a spoon.
Like that just seemed like hisquirky character, but it turned

(31:09):
out, whatever it is, you know.
Um, sorry, I'm like, I've neverwritten a mystery in my life,
and here I go.
Is there a twist in your book?

SPEAKER_03 (31:17):
Uh, there's definitely a twist.

SPEAKER_02 (31:19):
Is there just one or is there more than one?

SPEAKER_03 (31:21):
Um, I think it's really just one major one that's
like, oh my fucking god.
Like, I wish that didn't justhappen.

SPEAKER_02 (31:28):
Better not be with the kids.

SPEAKER_03 (31:29):
No, no, no.
There's no kids in the book.

SPEAKER_02 (31:31):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (31:31):
Yeah.
The kids stay at the hotel wherethey belong.
I can say that for sure.
No children were harmed in themaking of this book.

SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
Is the twist in the middle or at the I'd say
two-thirds of the way through.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (31:42):
Yeah.
Like it it has a really bigbuild-up and then it's the
twist, and but there's no itdoesn't get resolved, but it's
there's like a solid ending.
You know, like it's not like abig cliffhangery situation
either.

SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Yeah, when people say that the twist in the book
should be at the halfway point,I think I disagree with that.
And I think in my book, thetwist, or I guess it's not
called a twist, it's called areveal in my case.
Happens, yeah, about two-thirdsor three-quarters of the way
through the book.
Because I feel like that momentfor the reader, it's like that's
such a big part of why I read.

(32:17):
Totally.
And why they're flipping thepages because things aren't
adding up, or there's all thiscuriosity about what it is.
And then once you reveal that,the tension is kind of like
gone.

SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:27):
And then what you want is to see things resolved
over a few chapters to get somesatisfaction.
Right.
But after the twist happens,what do you?

SPEAKER_03 (32:37):
I mean, yeah, you gotta just clean up the mess.
Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 (32:39):
Yeah, depends on the story.
Right.
So the last thing was I sent youthis video by this amazing
YouTuber.
Yes.
And she's an author.
I haven't read her books yet,but I think I probably should.
Her name's Abby Emmons.
I don't know what the name ofthe video was, but she was
talking about emotional dynamicchange.

SPEAKER_03 (32:59):
Yeah, it was a good, it was a good video.
I thought that she's littlewomen as an example.
She had two different versionsof Little Women.
And she was talking about likeboth writing writing a novel and
in a movie or in a screenplay.
And how to like really evokethat emotional charge in your
viewers or your readers.
I liked what she had to say.

SPEAKER_02 (33:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (33:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (33:19):
She was comparing Greta Gerwig's Little Women, a
particular scene, with the BBC'sLittle Woman.

SPEAKER_03 (33:26):
Have you seen either of those?
You know, I have a really hardtime watching something after
I've read it as a book.
And I have very positivememories of reading Little
Women.
I've never liked it as a in inany of its forms as a movie.

SPEAKER_02 (33:41):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
I really liked Greta Gerwig'sLittle Women because visually it
was so good.
Like the clothes and the colorsand the the scenery, it was just
so awesome.
But what Abby was saying waslike, okay, so she's talking
about emotional dynamic change.
Composers use this to add depthand complexity to their music.

(34:05):
So it's like variation in volumeor intensity between the notes
or movements that convey a rangeof emotion.

SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
Like if everything is just through the whole song,
you're just literally, peoplecall that it's one note.
Right.
And there's a scene in LittleWomen where it's a really insane
scene where the little bitchyone wants to go to a play with
Joe the writer, and I think Megthe nice one.
And Meg the Nice One and Joe thewriter just ditch the bitchy one

(34:38):
and they go.
And the bitchy one is so madthat she takes Joe's manuscript
and she burns it too.

SPEAKER_03 (34:44):
Which is burns wild.
Like what a reaction.
I can't imagine ever like takingrevenge on someone by like, I'm
gonna take your life's work andjust fucking destroy it.
What a bitch.

SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, it's just kids, man.

SPEAKER_03 (35:01):
Oh but isn't she supposed to be like 12?
She doesn't even have a fullyformed lobe.

SPEAKER_02 (35:06):
Yeah, she's she the character's a a little bitch.
Yeah.
She's a little girl, and shejust wants to go to the play.
And anyways, the way that it'sdepicted from these different
directors in the Gerwiginterpretation, Amy starts out
just whining, she wants to go,she wants to go, she wants to
go.

(35:26):
And then the sisters are like,You can't go, you can't go, you
can't go.
And then when they get back andthey find out that she's burned
the manuscript, all the sistersare immediately screaming and
yelling and hitting each otherand fighting.
It's just, it's literally onenote.
Yeah, it's zero to 60.

SPEAKER_03 (35:44):
Yeah, it's just everybody's screaming, but it
was already like built up tolike little whiny bitch.

SPEAKER_02 (35:50):
Yeah, it was just nothing really, there was no no
dynamics, nothing reallychanged.
Right.
Whereas in the BBC version, wesee Amy come into the room at
first and she's what are youguys doing?
Where are you guys going?
She's like excited.
And they say they're going to aplane.
She's like, Oh my gosh, can Icome?
And she's, you know, what areher expectations around this?
She's expecting that she's goingto be able to go.

(36:11):
And then when they say no, heremotions change.
It's dynamic.
Now she's crushed.
So we get that high and low.
That's the same with everycharacter in these scenes.
They're expecting something,they're surprised by what the
other person said, they'rereacting, their emotions are
changing, and everything'sreally dynamic.
So when I'm going through mymanuscript and characters are

(36:34):
having a conversation, I'm nothaving them speaking at the same
with the same type of emotionand language and urgency.
Right.
If you have one character going,no, I didn't, and you have the
other one going, yes, you did,no, I didn't, yes, you did.
Like that's one note.
Right.
So I'm trying to create moredynamics among the characters.

(36:59):
And I think that that happenswhen they have different
expectations, when they havedifferent desires and different
fears and different misbeliefs,then you're automatically
starting to have this dynamicemotional range.
Yeah.
Yep.
Oh, I noticed when I wasthinking about this emotional
dynamic range, I thought aboutyour two-hour prompt, sure,

(37:23):
yeah.
Story prompt or whatever.
And how you have that, you haveemotional dynamic range in so go
back and listen to the lastepisode.
Um, people listening to thisright now, if you want to hear
what I'm talking about, becauseRachel wrote um a little snippet
of a story based on a prompt,and she wrote it in two hours

(37:44):
and then she read it on the pod.
And the characters go into thisdiner.
There's sort of this headstrong,sassy, um homeless woman.
Homeless, poor poor woman.
And there's this.
That's not funny.
You shouldn't have laughed likethat.

SPEAKER_03 (38:01):
You have no home.
I mean, I wrote her, but sorry,girl.
Sorry, girl.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
She's she's not real, guys.
Yeah.
Don't so there's her, and thenthere's um this big man from
work who is polished, he's rich,he goes to the fancy gym, he
meets at nice restaurants, andhe's kind of cheeky and relaxed,
where she is very worked up andconfused.

(38:31):
She doesn't know anything, hehas the answers, he's calm and
collected and cheeky, and she'ssort of all worked up.
And then you have the umwaitress come in and she loves
June, and all she's seeing outof this scene is that her little
friend June um is on a date withthis rich hot guy.

(38:53):
Right.
So now her emotional state isalso dynamic.

SPEAKER_03 (39:00):
Sure, right?
Um and it's throwing off the theother woman even more.
Like like the the waitress islike winking at her and she's
just like, I'm not on a date.
And like that's making her evenmore angry somehow, you know, in
like a totally different waythan she already was.

SPEAKER_02 (39:14):
Yes, and you could easily write that scene with um
the is it Juni?
Juni's the waitress, and Kimmy'sthe homeless woman.

SPEAKER_03 (39:26):
And then uh Jared is the mysterious, yeah, maybe
slightly magical person.

SPEAKER_02 (39:32):
We don't we don't really know.
The wolf that grabs you by theankles and has his furry away
with you.
Right.
Um, so you could have writtenthat as Kimmy going, Why are you
here and how did you find me?
And then Jared going, I didn'tfind you.
Why would you ask me that?
And then Juni coming up andbeing like, Don't yell in the

(39:53):
restaurant.
Can't you see that you'reannoying everybody?
And so everybody is justclashing and yelling at each
other.
Right.
Right?
Like that's that's what I findwith honestly friends.
Do you remember that show,Friends?
Sure.
Yeah.
You do?

SPEAKER_01 (40:07):
Okay, it was like We are millennials.

SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
It was a um phenomenon.
Okay, so I love friends.
Yeah.
I have very fond feelingstowards friends, especially the
first, you know, say fiveseasons.
Yes, yeah.
Um, but I did find, and likepeople say that if you don't
have conflict in a story,there's no conflict, no story.
Right.
So in every episode of Friends,there's, you know, the Monica's

(40:34):
say like expectation she's gonnamake this beautiful dinner, and
her misbelief that everyone'sgonna like it and love her more
for it, and then the realitythat she's faced with that all
the friends, I don't know, saythey don't like it or they're
all or weren't availabletogether.
Weren't available or likesomething like that, and then
hijinks and suit.
Um, but I always find that onFriends there's this one

(40:57):
penultimate scene where they'reall in Monica's apartment
screaming at each other.
It's true.
And it's very one note and it'svery like grating.
Like maybe, maybe not everymaybe not every episode, but I
have seen episodes.
Definitely a lot of them.
Yeah, yeah.
Those scenes would be better ifthere was more emotional dynamic

(41:18):
range.

SPEAKER_03 (41:19):
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah, I would say, I mean, asmuch as I do love that show, and
I'll always have a soft spot forfriends, there's not a ton of
emotional there the the episodeswhere there's wide dyn you know,
wide emotional range are everyfew episodes, which keeps you
just hooked enough, which mightbe the formula for a long
running, you know, what it waslike 26 episodes per season, or

(41:42):
wasn't it?
Or like or something that's likethat.
Um, you know, that might be theformula for writing a show like
that, yeah where like you can'thave that much emotional range
or else you've got Grey'sAnatomy, you know?
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 (41:53):
And I think that Friends, because it had was
around for so long and therewere so many um episodes and so
much that had happened, and theyalso age, the later seasons the
characters are showing moreemotional dynamic range, and I
feel like we didn't want to seethat.
Like we I I feel like it was toodeep.

(42:15):
It was like Monica and Chandlerlike can't have a baby and
something.
You're just like, guys, come on,Monica, chop the chop up a get
stuck in a vestibule, Chandler.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Get back in the vestibule andhave this like one embarrassing
feeling.

SPEAKER_03 (42:30):
So there's a vestibule in my book.
Uh it it's like a flashbackyscene.
And I okay, what would you callthe train car the section of the
train car in which the doorsare?
When I looked it up, it's avestibule.
Oh, it is.
But I hate that.

(42:50):
I feel like it's not avestibule.
I don't know what else it is.
If you, dear listener, know abetter name for that section of
a train car where the doors are.
You know, like it's not in itsown separate car, it's like at
the front of the car, and Iguess it's a vestibule by like

(43:11):
all and but you know, allintents and purposes, it's a
vestibule.
But like, there's gotta be abetter name for it.
And I hate the word vestibule inmy book, it just doesn't belong
there.
It's not it's not the vernacularthat this character would use,
right?

SPEAKER_02 (43:23):
And she's she's not like a train designer, or she
wouldn't necessarily know likethe jargon of the train being a
vestibule.
Right.
Um, so what would she call it?
Yeah.
Because you have to say itexplicitly, like they were in
this section of the cross.

SPEAKER_03 (43:42):
The characters in this scene are one of them's
watching the other one comethrough this train door, and the
the one is like kind of standingin this vestibule area for a
second before they start coming,like they see each other.

SPEAKER_02 (43:54):
And because there's no seats there, so you kind of
it's not like they could can sitdown there.

SPEAKER_03 (43:59):
Right, and she like drops her bag, so she has to be
there for a second to like pickup her bag, and like um the
vestibule matters.

SPEAKER_02 (44:06):
Yes, it does because it's an area where people are
coming and going, right and it'ssort of you don't want to stay
there.

SPEAKER_03 (44:12):
Right.
And like, is that person gonnacome towards the other person?
You know, like there's like amoment of like they have to come
towards the other one, butthey're in this area.
What is it called?
Not I don't want it to be avestibule.
So if you hear this episode andyou have a better word than
vestibule, I will give youcredit at the back of my book.

SPEAKER_02 (44:30):
You're gonna get you're gonna get.
I really I'm gonna call it righthere, right now.
Rachel's gonna get a book dealfor her book.

SPEAKER_03 (44:39):
I really really're also gonna get a book deal for
your book.
It's gonna happen.
It's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 (44:44):
Wow.
Yeah, it's gonna happen.
Um, so especially since I'm notjust ignoring the fact that it
exists anymore.
And I've I've cracked the code,you know.
Um Stephen King in his book onwriting, he says that like once
you're done your first draft,put it in a cupboard, walk away

(45:04):
for at least two weeks.
The longer, the better.
The longer you get away fromthat thing and work on something
else, think on something else,the better.
And I always felt this like timepressure.
I don't want to just leave itfor two months.
I want to, I want to really,really finish it.
I want to send it to agents, Iwant to get this done.
But then when I sort of lost mypassion for the work, I just

(45:27):
ended up doing that anyways.
Sure.
And it's been it's that'sactually what I needed.
So thank you, Stephen King, Iguess.

SPEAKER_03 (45:34):
Yeah, I I'm really glad that I had a good chunk of
July, a good chunk of all ofAugust, and a chunk of
September, like away from mybook.
Coming back to it this past weekhas been really great.
It's been like, oh, I forgotthat this happened.
There was enough that passedwhere I'm like, I had the
questions of like why are thesecharacters acting this way
towards each other?
So I was able to resolve it.

(45:54):
In the moment while I waswriting it, it was like I knew
their intentions already.
And so now I've pulled away fromit.
I know that there's not enoughthere to to solve that for the
reader.
They needed a little bit more.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:09):
That's great.

SPEAKER_02 (46:10):
Yeah.
Oh, one thing I wonder aboutyour book is when people watch,
like, say, a horror or athriller and um everybody's
screwing around the house orwhatever, people ask, why can't
they just leave?
Oh, right.
Sometimes I think about that.
It's like, oh, my character isin this like horrible situation.

(46:32):
So what's keeping them in thatsituation?
Otherwise, people will say,Well, just fucking leave.
Right.
And but I think that the reasoncould be like emotional abuse or
financial abuse.
Like those kind of reasons arelegitimate, but if your
character doesn't have emotionalties, if they're physically
able, if there's if they're theythey've got the keys to their

(46:53):
car in their pocket, like theycan they have a cell phone, they
can call for help, they can, youknow, like why aren't they?
There has to be like reasons forthat.

SPEAKER_03 (47:00):
Were you gonna ask me why my characters don't just
leave?

SPEAKER_02 (47:03):
Yeah, why don't your characters leave the party?
But well, I don't know whathappens at the party.
Maybe they don't want to leave.

SPEAKER_03 (47:08):
No, well, some of the characters don't know what's
has what has happened wheneverything kind of crescendos.
They don't know to leave.
Uh, and then some of them feelobligated to help in the
situation.
Some of them have left.

SPEAKER_02 (47:21):
Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (47:22):
There's nobody at any point in the story who feels
like they're in danger.
Oh.
Very you know, when things startreally heating up, it's very
surprising how things becausebecause it's a murder mystery
party, so like nobody thinksthat there's actually any danger
happening.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (47:38):
Um that's so ex that's so cool.
Oh my god.
I was so excited.
Um, okay, well, I think that wegot really crafty on this
episode.

SPEAKER_03 (47:48):
I think so.
I like it.
I like talking about craft andlike talking.
I I think this was great.

SPEAKER_02 (47:53):
Okay, good.
Yeah.
I really like it too.
And so I am literally what Ihave to do though now, if I want
to reach this deadline for thiscontest, is work on it like in
all my spare time.
Like I can't be doing anythingelse.

SPEAKER_03 (48:11):
You can't even edit this podcast.
Sorry, this is our last episode.

SPEAKER_02 (48:14):
Just kidding.
One I can edit this podcast, butI can't do any extra stuff for
the podcast.
Oh, that's fair.
And then next week I think we'regonna do a story time.

SPEAKER_03 (48:26):
Yes, because we have our wonderful people who are
right, like have written writtenor recorded to come in.
And then Are you gonna have anystory that you can share?
I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (48:36):
What about the Steinbeck?

SPEAKER_03 (48:38):
Well, that's gonna be 5,000 words.

SPEAKER_02 (48:39):
Up to 5,000 words.

SPEAKER_03 (48:40):
Yeah, and that would be a really long thing.
I'll think of something.
I could you could do anotherchapter of your I was worried
you were gonna say that.
I could try.
Let me think about it.
Oh my god, I would love I'llI'll share something if you want
me to.
Yeah.
I'll think of something toshare.
And in another craft episode inthe future, I would love to talk
about character development, howwe've come up with characters,

(49:04):
and like when you create acharacter, do you create an
outline for them?
Like how I think characterdevelopment would be a really
fun topic.
And you know, especially for astory like mine with like eight
different characters, you know,and how you came up with yours.
I'd love to talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 (49:18):
Yes, we definitely should.
Okay, yeah.
I would love that too.
Especially I feel like characterisn't my strong point.

SPEAKER_00 (49:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (49:26):
And I think, yeah, I would love to learn more about
that from you.
And okay, so in the futureepisodes, you're gonna hear some
more craft talk about characterdevelopment and a storytime
episode where hopefully ScottGibson and MJ do a switcheroo on
their last one.
And um, my friend and fellowwriter Blair Visher share some

(49:49):
of her poetry.

SPEAKER_03 (49:50):
This is very exciting.
Okay, and then like andsubscribe, please.
We need to start saying thatevery episode.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (49:58):
Please smash that button.
That's how the YouTuber saysit's smash.
Smash our button.
It's kinda hot.
Don't smash it too hard.
Um, yeah, okay.
Sorry, Dad.
Oh Lord.
David, send in a story.
I heard you're a good writer.
Would love to hear it.
Uh okay.

(50:18):
Goodbye, everybody.
Bye.