November 11, 2024 • 36 mins
In this episode of Writers with Wrinkles, Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid tackle the harsh realities of getting "orphaned" in publishing and offer practical tips for authors to navigate setbacks when their editors leave mid-project. They discuss proactive steps authors can take to protect their work, advocate for themselves, and manage expectations in an unpredictable industry.
Key Discussion Points
- What It Means to be Orphaned: Beth and Lisa explain how "orphaning" happens in publishing—when an acquiring editor leaves the publisher, leaving the author without a primary advocate.
- The Realities of Publishing: Both hosts emphasize the frequent disconnect between authors' expectations and the business-focused decisions of publishers. They highlight the importance of managing realistic expectations, as publishers can only do so much for each title.
- Navigating Challenges: Advice on recognizing red flags, such as slow response times or lack of feedback, and leveraging support from literary agents to push back and secure necessary attention for one's work.
- The Value of Self-Advocacy: Tips on self-promotion and assertiveness in the publishing process, encouraging authors to view their book as a product that they need to actively support.
- Considering Alternatives: For authors who feel unsupported, self-publishing is explored as a viable option, especially when traditional publishing fails to provide adequate resources or guidance.
Conclusion
Beth and Lisa underscore that authors must take an active role in their publishing journey, stay realistic about industry limitations, and advocate persistently for their work. By understanding the industry’s constraints, authors can better navigate challenges and even consider alternative publishing routes if traditional paths fall short.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Beth McMullen (00:00):
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa
Schmidt and we're the co-hostsof Writers with Wrinkles.
This is season three, episode38, and today we're answering
questions.
Quick note on how to submityour questions Visit our website
for the link text from thepodcast notes Scream across time
zones.
(00:20):
We will absolutely hear you,because Lisa and I never
actually sleep anymore.
We will put all this in thepodcast notes so you can find it
easily and get those questionsto us.
We have.
We have a couple of good onesfor today, Don't you think?
Lisa Schmid (00:35):
I think they're really good and it's one of
those.
It's those things that ithappens to people and you hear
people complaining and talkingabout it, but then we recently
had a friend that got orphaned,and for those who don't know
what that means, so it's whenyou are acquired at a publisher,
(00:57):
you have an acquiring editorand sometimes that acquiring
editor leaves and so now youhave no champion at the
publisher.
Your book basically gets shovedonto another well-meaning
editor's desk who's already gota full plate of books they loved
and they acquired, and now theyhave to work on your book and
(01:19):
you get shuffled to the bottomof the pile and become an
afterthought.
I wish that I was hearing likedifferent experiences from
people, but it's always a veryconsistent experience.
So we recently had a mutualfriend that has just gone
through a horrific experienceand we were going to talk about
(01:40):
that and then solutions that canhelp you if this happens to you
.
Beth McMullen (01:46):
Yes, it is very disturbing.
I have been orphaned multipletimes and you take it in the
beginning very personally,because you go into this
relationship with the acquiringeditor in good faith.
It is not personal.
That's the first thing.
The editor is not leaving you.
(02:07):
They always have really goodreasons for needing to jump ship
and some of those may not feelmeaningful to you at the time
but, trust me, they are Editors,would love to stay with you the
whole time.
They loved your book, that'swhy they acquired it.
But, on the other hand,sometimes changes happen in life
and you just have to make amove.
But it does feel shocking and Iwould say that my first
(02:32):
reaction when this firsthappened to me my very first
book, very first book I justpanicked because I didn't, I
didn't know, I didn't know thiswas a thing that even happened
and it's very, very much a thing.
So, yeah, I mean we have thisstory of this, this mutual
friend.
You actually know her a bitbetter than I do, so I will let
you kind of walk everyonethrough those specifics.
Lisa Schmid (02:54):
This poor gal.
She was acquired and then hereditor immediately left and she
could put on somebody else'sdesk and I know she loved that
editor.
But the editor didn't have time.
She didn't get an edit letter,she got no developmental edits.
She basically went into copyediting for the most part and
(03:16):
the first copy editor was so badthat she had to request a
second copy editor.
And the second time they wentthrough copy edits was all done
in past pages.
And for anybody who doesn'tknow what past pages are, it's
basically it's when the book'sbeen formatted and there's no
(03:37):
like you can't go in and makechanges to the document.
You have to literally kind ofhighlight it and then create a
separate document.
And when there's hundreds ofedits, of copy edits, it's a
really laborious and it justshouldn't happen.
Beth McMullen (03:54):
Well, and the truth of the matter is, when you
get past pages, there should beminimal changes done at that
stage of the game.
What you should be changing ismaybe they forgot a word or
there's an extra word, tiny,tiny little things that most
readers will gloss right overand not even notice.
So the fact that this personwho asked not to be named, so we
(04:17):
are not naming her ended uphaving to do well, the whole
series of events.
When I heard this story, itkind of blew my mind.
If there was something calledpublishing malpractice, this
would be it right, because herethis person entered into the
contract with the publisher.
Her editor left no shade on theeditor.
(04:38):
As I said, this happens.
People move around, publishingjobs are not well paid, the
people are overworked and ifthey see a better opportunity
elsewhere, of course they'regoing to take it.
No shade for that.
But she found herself in aposition where nobody was
tending to the details.
The timeline that she had beengiven was neglected.
(04:59):
So suddenly you're barrelingtowards your publication date,
which hasn't changed, and youhaven't even received feedback
on the draft in any form.
I mean, when I heard that thisperson didn't get an editorial
letter of any variety, evennotes within the pages.
I was actually stunned, and ittakes a lot to stun me, as you
(05:20):
well know.
Lisa Schmid (05:22):
Yeah, it was.
It was a hot mess and you knowpart of me I was once.
You know I would get the phonecalls with her crying and you
know everything that washappening throughout the whole
process and it was prettyhorrific, like I and I've heard
we've heard a lot of storieslike off the air from other
writers that things that havehappened and you're like, yeah,
(05:42):
that's bad and but this girlreally got put through the
rainer and so it was.
Beth McMullen (05:48):
It got to remember to that people this was
a first book and you go intothat first book with so much
excitement and enthusiasm butyou're also really naive because
you don't know what's coming.
You haven't gone to this rodeobefore.
(06:10):
So I think that it was almostworse, because this person was
so excited for this book.
They had worked on this book along time and to finally get to
the point that everybody'sstriving to get to and then have
it just go completely upsidedown.
Lisa Schmid (06:30):
Yeah, she was, um, she was basically an
afterthought to everything and I, I, I know to this day, I mean,
she's scarred, she's like Idon't even know if I want to be
here anymore.
Like this is this is not fun.
She felt like she know if Iwant to be here anymore.
Like this is this is not fun.
She felt like she.
You know, you feel like whenyou've arrived at a publisher,
that you've arrived to thepromised land, it's like I'm
(06:51):
here, they've bought my book, Ihave arrived, and then you get
crapped on and it doesn't feelgood and so it just.
It was a rough ride for her andhopefully she'll, you know,
like a hangover.
She'll get over it and forgetabout it someday.
Beth McMullen (07:07):
Well, I think it makes you very tentative about
entering into that relationshipagain of people who have gone
through the traditionalpublishing process and come out
feeling really neglected orabused and gone off to
(07:30):
self-publish with great success.
So the question becomes what isthe value of traveling path A
versus path B?
And somebody like this personwho has gotten had gone through
this very negative experience,maybe self-publishing is the way
(07:51):
they go, just because they feltlike they had to do everything
themselves anyway.
Right, you know, it does becomean option for people who feel
like they just didn't get anyattention or even the basic
attention.
I mean, this case was abnormalbecause even when I was orphaned
(08:11):
and I was orphaned well, myfirst book had three editors.
So by the time it came topublication, the acquiring
editor was like a distant memory.
The second editor quit becauseshe wanted to start a catering
food truck, right, and I waslike wow, am I that bad that
(08:32):
they're really just willing todo anything to get away from me?
I don't know.
And the third editor was like Idon't think I I mean, I don't
think she read the book andagain, no shade.
I was such an afterthought tothis editor.
She had her own stuff and I wasso far removed.
But again, that book really wason the struggle bus and then it
(08:54):
happened again with the sequel.
I had two editors.
My next book deal, I had twoeditors and the second editor
was, you know, actually Irespected her because she said
upfront you are so low on the onthe list of things that I care
(09:15):
about right now that like that'sjust where we're at Right,
which was true, you know.
And then I kind of knew what toexpect, which was basically
nothing.
So I wasn't surprised.
But again, there's so manythings in publishing that you
can control, but there are bigthings that you can't.
Lisa Schmid (09:37):
Yeah, and I think one of the things that you know,
when I was talking to ourfriend, what she would have done
differently and that's what Iwanted to convey today Like what
she would have done differentlyhad she known, like how bad it
was going to be and I think sheknew it was.
She was in trouble already whenshe had her first Zoom call and
(09:59):
the editor hadn't even read thebook and I'm like, okay,
there's your red flag, Numberone, and um, and then things
just, you know, she didn't getanything for like a year and
then everything was like thisfast paced nightmare of just
garbage.
And but the thing that you knowas an author, so many times and
(10:21):
I've done it, I'm sure Well, Idon't know if you've done it,
you're better at standing up foryourself, but I've, you know,
whenever I've been in twopublishing contracts and you go,
you bend over backwards Causeyou're just like I want to be
like that author that they'relike we enjoy working with her
and we'll work with her again.
So you don't want to be thatsqueaky wheel that is going to
(10:43):
cause problems.
That they're like, yeah, we'redone with you.
Or you know, you want it to bea great experience for the
editor and for the publisher.
And so what, what she shouldhave done and and in retrospect,
is, you know, having a meeting,an emergency meeting, right
away with her agent.
That was she's like I wish wewould have sat down and like
(11:05):
strategized for what was to comeor what were the possibilities,
and then also seeing her agentincluding her on all the steps,
because I think she was tryingto resolve them, um, on her own,
without getting her agentinvolved.
Cause you're like I'm a grownup, I, why am I?
Beth McMullen (11:23):
you know, I should just be handling this,
also because it's a debut book,right?
Um, you don't really know,right.
You kind of have that sense ofwell, maybe this is the normal
process when your editor leavesand you get added to somebody
else's list.
So I think, trusting your gut,that if something feels weird or
(11:46):
wrong you're kind of raisingyour hand and saying, is this
really the way it's supposed tobe going?
And your agent will havelimited ability to do stuff
right.
There's only so much they cando.
They can't make the editor moveyou up the list to make you
more prominent in theirday-to-day, but they can help
(12:09):
you sort of navigatestep-by-step-by-step and do at
least some things to make youfeel like you're more in control
.
The first thing my agent said tome the very first time that my
first editor left was thishappens to everybody at least
once or twice.
I mean, and you know, for thoseof us who are really lucky, it
happens over and over again, butit's not uncommon.
(12:32):
So you're definitely not aloneand I think that making sure
that you are paying extraattention to everything that's
going on, that when a date iscoming up, you're making sure to
be really annoying to theeditor, as in you owe me
feedback on this day.
Am I getting it?
Am I getting it?
Am I getting it?
(12:52):
Like, be a little bit pushy andannoying, that's totally fine,
because nobody is going to loveyour book more than you.
So if you're not out therewaving your arms in the air
about it.
Nobody else is going to.
Lisa Schmid (13:06):
Yeah, and I think, with you know, once she really
got her agent engaged, her agentwas on like scheduling phone
calls with editor and managingeditor and she you know she does
she jumped in, but at thatpoint it was so late in the game
that her, her agent can only doso much.
You know what I mean and so Ithink it's one of those things
(13:29):
that just from the verybeginning, the first red flag
that waves its ugly head, um,let your agent know so that they
can jump into the mix and stayinvolved throughout the whole
process.
So you've seen them on likeimportant communications, like
if there's like a problem, soyou're seeing your agent so that
they know and then they canfollow up and say has this been
(13:50):
taken care of?
Beth McMullen (13:52):
And they may have limited ability to do much, but
at least they're in the process, so when they can do something,
they're there to do it, asopposed to you then being too
late to tell them and they can'tdo anything.
Right, they are your agent.
The very name suggests thatthey are advocating for you, so
(14:15):
let them do that, that they areadvocating for you, so let them
do that.
And, of course, most agents Iwould actually say all agents
probably have experience withthis.
So make sure you use thatexperience, make sure they know
what's happening, because a lotof times an agent's not gonna be
involved in your day-to-dayconversations with your editor.
So make sure that the ones thatare relevant to the ongoing
(14:37):
process and the success,potentially, of your book, then
they're, they are engaged inthat, they are involved in that
and that they know everythingthat's going on in the
background.
Lisa Schmid (14:47):
Well, and the other thing is like if you don't
speak up, they'll never know howbad it is and they'll keep
submitting to that samepublisher too.
It's just.
It's one of those things whereit's like their needs you just
you need to have your agentinvolved, they need to be aware
of what's going on, and so thatit's you know.
It's again, it's a cautionarytale, like do you know, in the
future, do I want to putsomebody else on that desk or do
(15:09):
I want to send them there?
Because my client just wentthrough.
You know this situation, and soI think you know for everyone
who's been orphaned and who hasbeen through a bad experience,
and you're wondering if you wantto stay.
I think it's just where youneed a moment to just step back
and know that there are reallygood experiences out there.
Beth McMullen (15:30):
Yeah, totally, and I mean, some people will go
a long time without beingorphaned, or maybe forever, and
that you know good for them.
I wish I was that person.
But when it does happen, youcan, you know, sit in the corner
and rend your garments for alittle while and then you just
have to get up and deal with it,because it is the reality and
(15:52):
the person who is leaving, theeditor who is leaving, they are
going to walk out that door andthat's it.
Then you are left standingthere trying to figure out what
to do, and writing is, you know,the fun part, the writing.
The book house is doingeverything they told you they
were going to do.
(16:17):
You know, that's just, that'sjust the business.
And if you don't like thatbusiness, then do your writing.
But make sure that you'reremembering you're doing it for
yourself and that you're notgoing to necessarily travel that
path.
Lisa Schmid (16:32):
And that kind of leads to the other part of our
conversation where lately, and Ithink during COVID, the waters
became even rougher, so to speak, and I know so many people like
every day I'm havingconversations or email exchanges
with somebody who's like I'm sobitter and jaded I'm just done.
(16:53):
So bitter and jaded I'm, I'mjust done.
Um, you know, I saw somethingwe both saw on um Reds that um
and and it's funny she's a local, she's a local author.
I'm having drinks with her nextweek.
She just posted she's like I'm.
So I all the you know I've beenwriting for 15 years and all the
joy is gone because ofpublishing.
Like she's been put through theringer, and I am hearing those
(17:15):
conversations every single dayand it's just like what is going
on in publishing, that they areare not understanding that the
writer is their commodity, thatthat is the person that's
creating their works, and yetthese people keep just and
really like successful authorsthat have, you know, put out
several books that are just likeI'm done.
(17:36):
You get abused so many timesand then you're just pulling the
ripcord saying I'm out.
And so I guess one of thethings that we wanted to convey
was if you're feeling this way.
You're not alone, you're not abad writer, you're not a bad
person.
You didn't do anything wrong.
But you do need to speak up foryourself and you need to find a
(17:57):
way to navigate it and knowthat it's a possibility anytime
you enter into a contract.
Beth McMullen (18:03):
Yeah, I think too , there is a disconnect between
what publishers canrealistically be expected to do
and what authors think thepublisher is going to do, and
(18:27):
what I mean by that.
Here's a little example.
So say, you sign on with a bigpublisher to publish your new
novel and you're doing yourmarketing and sales call and
they're talking about all thesethings that they're going to do
for your book, and then you getthis beautiful arc and on the
back of the arc is, you know,national book tour, social media
(18:47):
blitz of messaging and thislaundry list of things.
Now, the truth is that thoseare ideas and possibilities.
They are not guarantees.
But I think that so manyauthors see that and I see this
posted all the time where peopleare like I'm getting a book
(19:09):
tour because it says so on myARC and I'm like you're going to
end up heartbroken because thisis not reality.
And a publisher might say to youwe love this book so much.
We see a long relationship andwe see you growing with us.
(19:30):
We want to be part of thatjourney.
The truth is that may very wellhappen if your book is a
success.
Remember, publishing is abusiness.
I think we forget thatsometimes.
If you're successful, thatjourney will be lovely.
If your book bombs which is like95% of books that get published
(19:53):
don't even earn their advanceback I don't know if that figure
is right, but it's ballparkright that journey is going to
end really fast because they'regoing to stop betting on you.
It is no longer a long-termrelationship where they're like,
okay, well, this book didn't dogreat, but we'll just build on
that and keep going.
No, they're going to switch tosomebody else who, potentially,
(20:15):
is going to have a big fit, abig hit.
No, I'm going to have the bigfit.
That's the wrong thing.
They're going to have a big hit, but I mean, that is just
business.
Think about any other businessproduct, not books.
That's just the way it works,right, if you are an A-list
author, you're going to have adifferent experience than if
(20:37):
you're B-list.
If you're B-list, you are on thestruggle bus from moment number
one and you have to decide,based on that reality, if it's
something that you want to dothat you can handle, that the
upside is enough to balance thedownside.
What are your goals?
What does writing give you?
You have to answer all of thesequestions and then I think for
(20:59):
me, having been in this for solong, like I have been really
excited and I've been reallybitter, but now I'm just kind of
like I see it for what it isand it makes me.
I'm not angry about it anymorebecause I see the reality of
publishing and you really doneed to understand the reality
(21:21):
rather than what you're hearingpeople say to you about okay,
we're going to do this, we'regoing to do that, they would
love to do all that for you.
They can't do all that foreverybody.
It's just not realistic and Ithink that if you can handle
reality, then you can just goalong and have as positive an
(21:41):
experience as possible.
If the reality just kind ofdoubles you over in agony, maybe
that's not the path.
You're going to be doing a lotof the same work anyway.
You're going to have to pay forsome editing and polishing of
your manuscript and finding acover and distribution channels
(22:01):
and whatnot all of that stuff.
But at the end of the dayyou're in full control of
everything, as opposed tofeeling like you've handed the
reins over to somebody whodidn't really want to take them.
Lisa Schmid (22:15):
Well, and I think also, I think all publishers and
editors have good intentions,totally, but they are so
overwhelmed and I have no ideawhat's going on behind the
scenes at any publishing house,but you can tell that they're
(22:35):
overwhelmed Like it's just, it'sacross the board, universally,
from every single editor orwriter I've ever spoken to.
They're just like.
You know, I was just talking tosomebody yesterday.
I'm like how are you doing?
What's going on with your book?
She has two books in contractright now and she's like yeah,
I'm being ghosted on both ofthem.
I haven't, you know, I haven'theard anything from my editor in
(22:57):
months.
I have no idea where my editsare.
I mean, and that is a normal,that's two books and one of
these books is like she's anA-list.
You know what I mean.
Well, I don't know if she'sA-list, but she's just like yeah
, I don't know, I don't know.
Beth McMullen (23:18):
It?
I don't know, I don't know,it's it's true, it's true.
And I think that I think thateditors are called upon to wear
hats that are not necessarily intheir wheelhouse, so skills
that they need, that they don'tnecessarily have, that they're
being asked to use.
So I mean, I've had an editorwho was an amazing editor.
She would look at themanuscript and the things that I
(23:40):
was like I don't know, I can'tquite figure out what's not
working.
She could zero.
She was like laser focused onthe stuff and her editorial
letters were a roadmap to justvastly improving the book.
Even if it was a manuscriptthat I thought was pretty good,
(24:00):
she would elevate it everysingle time.
She was excellent.
She still is excellent, she'sstill out there doing excellent
work.
But the stuff that she also hadto do for the book, the sales
and marketing stuff, thetimeline stuff, where the you
know where everything is goingto be, how much time you get to
(24:21):
manage your edits, all of thosethings, those she was not as
good at, and because that thatwasn't really the skillset that
attracted her to publishing inthe first place, her to
publishing in the first place.
So when you're asking editorsto wear all these hats.
Inevitably something is goingto fall by the wayside.
(24:43):
I totally get that.
It's too much work,no-transcript.
Lisa Schmid (24:54):
I think anytime we've had an editor on it's a
taco truck.
I'm there.
Anytime we've had an editor on,I've always been shocked to
hear, like how much stuff theyhave to do, like just in the
acquisitions process and thebusiness side of it, and you
know just.
And then you add the editingand managing their writers, and
(25:17):
I mean just everything that theyhave to do and then getting you
know they're, they're mappingout their time, and then they
get you know one or twomanuscripts shoved onto their
thing and they're just like Ican, just I have visuals of
their heads exploding.
So this isn't, you know, thisisn't, like you said, shade on
any editors.
This is the industry, andthere's something inherently
(25:38):
broken when you know, every timeI talk to a writer, they are so
fried and so burnout and feelso abused by the process that
they just want to leave.
You know, and that's I mean.
I think we've talked to maybe ahandful of writers on the show
that are like this is the bestthing ever, and they are A-list
(26:01):
authors where you're justsitting there listening to their
experience going oh my God, I'mlike what is happening over in
this magical land.
Beth McMullen (26:10):
It's night and day.
It is.
It is night and day.
It's really different.
It's really different.
Night and day.
It's really.
It's really different.
It's really different.
And it's again it's.
God bless you if you can getthere and and enjoy the ride.
But the vast, vast majority ofworking writers are not in that
group and they're dealing with avery different universe.
(26:33):
And I mean I guess the takeawayis to just really understand
reality and go forth knowingpotentially what is going to
happen, so when it does happen,you don't feel blindsided or
shocked to be in the situationand it also allows you to plan
(26:56):
things to prop up your effort.
Again.
Nobody loves your book morethan you.
Nobody wants it to succeed morethan you.
So you are going to have to getin the game.
You cannot leave all the workto the publishing house because
they can't do it.
They can't do it.
You have to be ready.
(27:17):
You have to have a plan of yourown for how you're going to
support your book.
Lisa Schmid (27:21):
I think one of the other things that and I had this
is another conversation I hadwith an author offline that you,
when this happens, when you getorphaned or you're, you know
you're getting shuffled to theside and they're not.
You're not getting the samekind of attentionuffled to the
side and they're not.
You're not getting the samekind of attention.
And it doesn't mean your booksany less.
(27:42):
You know any less well-writtenor it's any.
You know it's just as good asthis other person's or whatever.
But because they haven't shownthe same attention for like
promotions and they're not doingyou know Times Square
billboards or you know runningAmazon ads or Goodreads
giveaways, I mean whatever it isthey're doing for some other
book that's garnering all thesesales, that's awesome.
(28:05):
But if they're not doinganything for you and you don't
get the sales and it tanks yourbook, then it tanks your ability
to get a new book deal or agood book deal.
And so that's the thing I thinkis so frustrating is that not
only are they tanking that bookby not showing it the care and
consideration it was promised attime of signing, they are also
(28:28):
taking, you know, tanking yourability to get a new contract or
a decent contract.
Beth McMullen (28:34):
Oh, it's absolutely true.
I mean, I would, in manycircumstances I would take a
smaller advance that I know thatI can earn out, as opposed to a
larger one that I'm never goingto earn out, because then I'm
now wearing that you know thatbaggage, or carrying that
(28:55):
baggage of not having earned outmy book.
You know that baggage, orcarrying that baggage of not
having earned out my book, andthat is a hard thing.
If you're going for anotherbook to another publisher,
you're going to have to explainthat, because now, why would
they take a chance on you?
You didn't succeed when theycan take a chance on somebody
who's new and fresh Right.
(29:16):
So I think there's definitely,you definitely have to be
planning in advance how you wantto handle that situation,
provided that your book doesn'tgo the distance and now,
forevermore.
That is attached to you, that'syour reputation, it now belongs
(29:37):
to you.
How are you going to explainyou?
How are you going to explain it?
How are you going to navigatearound it?
What does it do?
How do you dig yourself out ofthe hole?
You end up in author jail andhow do you get out of it Right?
Lisa Schmid (29:50):
And that's another thing where you know those are
conversations that you have tohave with your agent and they're
probably not really fun becausethe agent's probably looking at
the numbers going how am Igoing to sell?
You know, how am I?
Even you know your next book isgreat, but how am I going to
sell it when you know I'mlooking at your numbers and
they're not awesome?
And so it just.
It's just this quagmire and Ifeel like this is such a Debbie
(30:11):
Downer episode, but this, Ithink this is just one of those.
Let's be real about publishing.
Beth McMullen (30:18):
And that's what I'm saying.
I'm saying understand thereality, understand the
limitations of this bookcontract, of this process that
you're going to step into.
It is a limited process, sounderstand the reality of that
and then you will be lessbrokenhearted when things happen
(30:38):
to you and you will be moreable to adjust and do the things
that you need to do to makeyourself a success.
I honestly do not believe inliving in this fantasy world of
like books or somethingdifferent than any other product
that a company is trying tosell right Because for the
publisher they is trying to sellright Because for the publisher
(31:00):
they are trying to sell aproduct.
So you have to think about itas a product on a certain level.
Of course, writing is not likemaking shoes, but at the end of
the day the selling part is thesame.
So you have to just live in the.
You have to live in the realworld, because otherwise you're
just going to get your heartbroken.
Lisa Schmid (31:20):
Yeah, and I don't want that for people.
No, and I think again, that'swhy we're having this, because
we debated.
We're like oh my gosh, this issuch a real topic.
Beth McMullen (31:29):
You are totally right when you said so many
people are showing up with thissame thing, like asking the same
question about why do I feelthis way, why does publishing
make me feel this way?
And we have definitely seen abig uptick and people feeling
like they got run over by a bus.
Lisa Schmid (31:48):
I get it, you know it's, it's hard.
When my debut book came out, Iremember I was just like, oh,
awesome, you know.
And then, as you know, as I'vegone through publishing, as I've
gone through the world, like Iam like sitting in a rocking
chair smoking a cigarette, likestaring around, like yeah, this
is how it is, honey you knowwhat, and we should.
(32:10):
There is a lot of joy inpublishing and a lot.
We're just giving you a reallydark side of it right now,
because that's not Well, no,it's not a dark side.
Beth McMullen (32:18):
It is a real angle on it.
It is not everybody'sexperience, but it is the vast
majority of people who arepublishing in today's day and
age.
Right, but I also I think whatwe need to remember is that
writing and publishing are twodifferent things.
I always go back to the writingbecause in my DNA I am
(32:43):
absolutely a writer and will beuntil the day I drop dead.
That's just my reality.
I can't not do it, but I havelearned over a lot of trial and
error that I can separate thetwo.
So I can work on somethingbecause I love it and it's fun
and it's a story I want to telland I'm thinking about it all
the time and I'm showing up atthe page to write the book.
(33:06):
I'm not thinking about sellingit.
I'm not thinking about thepublishing process.
I'm not thinking about thefuture of that book.
I'm thinking about it right inthe moment.
Book.
I'm thinking about it right inthe moment and by doing that I
am so happy to keep writing.
Whether or not I publish thatbook is for later.
I don't need to think aboutthat until later.
Lisa Schmid (33:34):
And if you've had a bad experience or you've just
gone through a trying you knowpublication experience, then
it's okay to take a break andregroup.
And sometimes it's just youdon't even need to be writing
because if you've gone through abad experience and the
editorial was a mess or whatever, you do get that burnout
feeling where you're just like Ican't even like pen to paper or
whatever.
I can't, I don't even know howto write anymore.
(33:54):
My brain's too frazzled and Ihate everyone and I'm just done.
And, like I said, like ifyou've ever been really hung
over and you're like I'm neverdrinking again and then suddenly
you find Friday rolls aroundand you're like God, that glass
of Chardonnay sounds really good, that's where you'll end.
You'll eventually get to thatplace again, trust me.
Beth McMullen (34:16):
That is great.
That is the perfect way todescribe it.
We have also been talking aboutand this is kind of related we
are going to be starting aprivate Facebook group
associated with writers withwrinkles, and it will be a place
to come and talk about writingand writing only.
(34:37):
Lisa and I will establish somesort of office hours with that,
so we'll be live on occasion inthere for people to just come
hang out.
When that is ready to go, it'sgoing to be in our podcast notes
, so we will keep you posted onthat and, of course, we'll send
it out on our socials.
A note on our socials, we haveleft Twitter X, whatever it's
called, so you can find us onFacebook.
(34:59):
You can find us on threads,instagram and blue sky, and
Lisa's really good at showing upin all of those places.
So if you have something youwant to discuss or thoughts or
whatever, find us there.
So, listeners, that is it fortoday's episode.
We hope this will help younavigate the choppy waters of
publishing, and we are back onNovember 25th with episode 39.
(35:23):
And we will be talking to VickiWeber, who is a literary agent
at Creative Media Agency and abestselling author.
So if you want to join us.
For that, please tune in, anduntil then, happy reading,
writing and listening.
Bye, lisa.
Lisa Schmid (35:41):
Bye Beth, bye guys.
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa
Schmidt and we're the co-hostsof Writers with Wrinkles.
This is season three, episode38, and today we're answering
questions.
Quick note on how to submityour questions Visit our website
for the link text from thepodcast notes Scream across time
zones.
(00:20):
We will absolutely hear you,because Lisa and I never
actually sleep anymore.
We will put all this in thepodcast notes so you can find it
easily and get those questionsto us.
We have.
We have a couple of good onesfor today, Don't you think?
Lisa Schmid (00:35):
I think they're really good and it's one of
those.
It's those things that ithappens to people and you hear
people complaining and talkingabout it, but then we recently
had a friend that got orphaned,and for those who don't know
what that means, so it's whenyou are acquired at a publisher,
(00:57):
you have an acquiring editorand sometimes that acquiring
editor leaves and so now youhave no champion at the
publisher.
Your book basically gets shovedonto another well-meaning
editor's desk who's already gota full plate of books they loved
and they acquired, and now theyhave to work on your book and
(01:19):
you get shuffled to the bottomof the pile and become an
afterthought.
I wish that I was hearing likedifferent experiences from
people, but it's always a veryconsistent experience.
So we recently had a mutualfriend that has just gone
through a horrific experienceand we were going to talk about
(01:40):
that and then solutions that canhelp you if this happens to you
.
Beth McMullen (01:46):
Yes, it is very disturbing.
I have been orphaned multipletimes and you take it in the
beginning very personally,because you go into this
relationship with the acquiringeditor in good faith.
It is not personal.
That's the first thing.
The editor is not leaving you.
(02:07):
They always have really goodreasons for needing to jump ship
and some of those may not feelmeaningful to you at the time
but, trust me, they are Editors,would love to stay with you the
whole time.
They loved your book, that'swhy they acquired it.
But, on the other hand,sometimes changes happen in life
and you just have to make amove.
But it does feel shocking and Iwould say that my first
(02:32):
reaction when this firsthappened to me my very first
book, very first book I justpanicked because I didn't, I
didn't know, I didn't know thiswas a thing that even happened
and it's very, very much a thing.
So, yeah, I mean we have thisstory of this, this mutual
friend.
You actually know her a bitbetter than I do, so I will let
you kind of walk everyonethrough those specifics.
Lisa Schmid (02:54):
This poor gal.
She was acquired and then hereditor immediately left and she
could put on somebody else'sdesk and I know she loved that
editor.
But the editor didn't have time.
She didn't get an edit letter,she got no developmental edits.
She basically went into copyediting for the most part and
(03:16):
the first copy editor was so badthat she had to request a
second copy editor.
And the second time they wentthrough copy edits was all done
in past pages.
And for anybody who doesn'tknow what past pages are, it's
basically it's when the book'sbeen formatted and there's no
(03:37):
like you can't go in and makechanges to the document.
You have to literally kind ofhighlight it and then create a
separate document.
And when there's hundreds ofedits, of copy edits, it's a
really laborious and it justshouldn't happen.
Beth McMullen (03:54):
Well, and the truth of the matter is, when you
get past pages, there should beminimal changes done at that
stage of the game.
What you should be changing ismaybe they forgot a word or
there's an extra word, tiny,tiny little things that most
readers will gloss right overand not even notice.
So the fact that this personwho asked not to be named, so we
(04:17):
are not naming her ended uphaving to do well, the whole
series of events.
When I heard this story, itkind of blew my mind.
If there was something calledpublishing malpractice, this
would be it right, because herethis person entered into the
contract with the publisher.
Her editor left no shade on theeditor.
(04:38):
As I said, this happens.
People move around, publishingjobs are not well paid, the
people are overworked and ifthey see a better opportunity
elsewhere, of course they'regoing to take it.
No shade for that.
But she found herself in aposition where nobody was
tending to the details.
The timeline that she had beengiven was neglected.
(04:59):
So suddenly you're barrelingtowards your publication date,
which hasn't changed, and youhaven't even received feedback
on the draft in any form.
I mean, when I heard that thisperson didn't get an editorial
letter of any variety, evennotes within the pages.
I was actually stunned, and ittakes a lot to stun me, as you
(05:20):
well know.
Lisa Schmid (05:22):
Yeah, it was.
It was a hot mess and you knowpart of me I was once.
You know I would get the phonecalls with her crying and you
know everything that washappening throughout the whole
process and it was prettyhorrific, like I and I've heard
we've heard a lot of storieslike off the air from other
writers that things that havehappened and you're like, yeah,
(05:42):
that's bad and but this girlreally got put through the
rainer and so it was.
Beth McMullen (05:48):
It got to remember to that people this was
a first book and you go intothat first book with so much
excitement and enthusiasm butyou're also really naive because
you don't know what's coming.
You haven't gone to this rodeobefore.
(06:10):
So I think that it was almostworse, because this person was
so excited for this book.
They had worked on this book along time and to finally get to
the point that everybody'sstriving to get to and then have
it just go completely upsidedown.
Lisa Schmid (06:30):
Yeah, she was, um, she was basically an
afterthought to everything and I, I, I know to this day, I mean,
she's scarred, she's like Idon't even know if I want to be
here anymore.
Like this is this is not fun.
She felt like she know if Iwant to be here anymore.
Like this is this is not fun.
She felt like she.
You know, you feel like whenyou've arrived at a publisher,
that you've arrived to thepromised land, it's like I'm
(06:51):
here, they've bought my book, Ihave arrived, and then you get
crapped on and it doesn't feelgood and so it just.
It was a rough ride for her andhopefully she'll, you know,
like a hangover.
She'll get over it and forgetabout it someday.
Beth McMullen (07:07):
Well, I think it makes you very tentative about
entering into that relationshipagain of people who have gone
through the traditionalpublishing process and come out
feeling really neglected orabused and gone off to
(07:30):
self-publish with great success.
So the question becomes what isthe value of traveling path A
versus path B?
And somebody like this personwho has gotten had gone through
this very negative experience,maybe self-publishing is the way
(07:51):
they go, just because they feltlike they had to do everything
themselves anyway.
Right, you know, it does becomean option for people who feel
like they just didn't get anyattention or even the basic
attention.
I mean, this case was abnormalbecause even when I was orphaned
(08:11):
and I was orphaned well, myfirst book had three editors.
So by the time it came topublication, the acquiring
editor was like a distant memory.
The second editor quit becauseshe wanted to start a catering
food truck, right, and I waslike wow, am I that bad that
(08:32):
they're really just willing todo anything to get away from me?
I don't know.
And the third editor was like Idon't think I I mean, I don't
think she read the book andagain, no shade.
I was such an afterthought tothis editor.
She had her own stuff and I wasso far removed.
But again, that book really wason the struggle bus and then it
(08:54):
happened again with the sequel.
I had two editors.
My next book deal, I had twoeditors and the second editor
was, you know, actually Irespected her because she said
upfront you are so low on the onthe list of things that I care
(09:15):
about right now that like that'sjust where we're at Right,
which was true, you know.
And then I kind of knew what toexpect, which was basically
nothing.
So I wasn't surprised.
But again, there's so manythings in publishing that you
can control, but there are bigthings that you can't.
Lisa Schmid (09:37):
Yeah, and I think one of the things that you know,
when I was talking to ourfriend, what she would have done
differently and that's what Iwanted to convey today Like what
she would have done differentlyhad she known, like how bad it
was going to be and I think sheknew it was.
She was in trouble already whenshe had her first Zoom call and
(09:59):
the editor hadn't even read thebook and I'm like, okay,
there's your red flag, Numberone, and um, and then things
just, you know, she didn't getanything for like a year and
then everything was like thisfast paced nightmare of just
garbage.
And but the thing that you knowas an author, so many times and
(10:21):
I've done it, I'm sure Well, Idon't know if you've done it,
you're better at standing up foryourself, but I've, you know,
whenever I've been in twopublishing contracts and you go,
you bend over backwards Causeyou're just like I want to be
like that author that they'relike we enjoy working with her
and we'll work with her again.
So you don't want to be thatsqueaky wheel that is going to
(10:43):
cause problems.
That they're like, yeah, we'redone with you.
Or you know, you want it to bea great experience for the
editor and for the publisher.
And so what, what she shouldhave done and and in retrospect,
is, you know, having a meeting,an emergency meeting, right
away with her agent.
That was she's like I wish wewould have sat down and like
(11:05):
strategized for what was to comeor what were the possibilities,
and then also seeing her agentincluding her on all the steps,
because I think she was tryingto resolve them, um, on her own,
without getting her agentinvolved.
Cause you're like I'm a grownup, I, why am I?
Beth McMullen (11:23):
you know, I should just be handling this,
also because it's a debut book,right?
Um, you don't really know,right.
You kind of have that sense ofwell, maybe this is the normal
process when your editor leavesand you get added to somebody
else's list.
So I think, trusting your gut,that if something feels weird or
(11:46):
wrong you're kind of raisingyour hand and saying, is this
really the way it's supposed tobe going?
And your agent will havelimited ability to do stuff
right.
There's only so much they cando.
They can't make the editor moveyou up the list to make you
more prominent in theirday-to-day, but they can help
(12:09):
you sort of navigatestep-by-step-by-step and do at
least some things to make youfeel like you're more in control
.
The first thing my agent said tome the very first time that my
first editor left was thishappens to everybody at least
once or twice.
I mean, and you know, for thoseof us who are really lucky, it
happens over and over again, butit's not uncommon.
(12:32):
So you're definitely not aloneand I think that making sure
that you are paying extraattention to everything that's
going on, that when a date iscoming up, you're making sure to
be really annoying to theeditor, as in you owe me
feedback on this day.
Am I getting it?
Am I getting it?
Am I getting it?
(12:52):
Like, be a little bit pushy andannoying, that's totally fine,
because nobody is going to loveyour book more than you.
So if you're not out therewaving your arms in the air
about it.
Nobody else is going to.
Lisa Schmid (13:06):
Yeah, and I think, with you know, once she really
got her agent engaged, her agentwas on like scheduling phone
calls with editor and managingeditor and she you know she does
she jumped in, but at thatpoint it was so late in the game
that her, her agent can only doso much.
You know what I mean and so Ithink it's one of those things
(13:29):
that just from the verybeginning, the first red flag
that waves its ugly head, um,let your agent know so that they
can jump into the mix and stayinvolved throughout the whole
process.
So you've seen them on likeimportant communications, like
if there's like a problem, soyou're seeing your agent so that
they know and then they canfollow up and say has this been
(13:50):
taken care of?
Beth McMullen (13:52):
And they may have limited ability to do much, but
at least they're in the process, so when they can do something,
they're there to do it, asopposed to you then being too
late to tell them and they can'tdo anything.
Right, they are your agent.
The very name suggests thatthey are advocating for you, so
(14:15):
let them do that, that they areadvocating for you, so let them
do that.
And, of course, most agents Iwould actually say all agents
probably have experience withthis.
So make sure you use thatexperience, make sure they know
what's happening, because a lotof times an agent's not gonna be
involved in your day-to-dayconversations with your editor.
So make sure that the ones thatare relevant to the ongoing
(14:37):
process and the success,potentially, of your book, then
they're, they are engaged inthat, they are involved in that
and that they know everythingthat's going on in the
background.
Lisa Schmid (14:47):
Well, and the other thing is like if you don't
speak up, they'll never know howbad it is and they'll keep
submitting to that samepublisher too.
It's just.
It's one of those things whereit's like their needs you just
you need to have your agentinvolved, they need to be aware
of what's going on, and so thatit's you know.
It's again, it's a cautionarytale, like do you know, in the
future, do I want to putsomebody else on that desk or do
(15:09):
I want to send them there?
Because my client just wentthrough.
You know this situation, and soI think you know for everyone
who's been orphaned and who hasbeen through a bad experience,
and you're wondering if you wantto stay.
I think it's just where youneed a moment to just step back
and know that there are reallygood experiences out there.
Beth McMullen (15:30):
Yeah, totally, and I mean, some people will go
a long time without beingorphaned, or maybe forever, and
that you know good for them.
I wish I was that person.
But when it does happen, youcan, you know, sit in the corner
and rend your garments for alittle while and then you just
have to get up and deal with it,because it is the reality and
(15:52):
the person who is leaving, theeditor who is leaving, they are
going to walk out that door andthat's it.
Then you are left standingthere trying to figure out what
to do, and writing is, you know,the fun part, the writing.
The book house is doingeverything they told you they
were going to do.
(16:17):
You know, that's just, that'sjust the business.
And if you don't like thatbusiness, then do your writing.
But make sure that you'reremembering you're doing it for
yourself and that you're notgoing to necessarily travel that
path.
Lisa Schmid (16:32):
And that kind of leads to the other part of our
conversation where lately, and Ithink during COVID, the waters
became even rougher, so to speak, and I know so many people like
every day I'm havingconversations or email exchanges
with somebody who's like I'm sobitter and jaded I'm just done.
(16:53):
So bitter and jaded I'm, I'mjust done.
Um, you know, I saw somethingwe both saw on um Reds that um
and and it's funny she's a local, she's a local author.
I'm having drinks with her nextweek.
She just posted she's like I'm.
So I all the you know I've beenwriting for 15 years and all the
joy is gone because ofpublishing.
Like she's been put through theringer, and I am hearing those
(17:15):
conversations every single dayand it's just like what is going
on in publishing, that they areare not understanding that the
writer is their commodity, thatthat is the person that's
creating their works, and yetthese people keep just and
really like successful authorsthat have, you know, put out
several books that are just likeI'm done.
(17:36):
You get abused so many timesand then you're just pulling the
ripcord saying I'm out.
And so I guess one of thethings that we wanted to convey
was if you're feeling this way.
You're not alone, you're not abad writer, you're not a bad
person.
You didn't do anything wrong.
But you do need to speak up foryourself and you need to find a
(17:57):
way to navigate it and knowthat it's a possibility anytime
you enter into a contract.
Beth McMullen (18:03):
Yeah, I think too , there is a disconnect between
what publishers canrealistically be expected to do
and what authors think thepublisher is going to do, and
(18:27):
what I mean by that.
Here's a little example.
So say, you sign on with a bigpublisher to publish your new
novel and you're doing yourmarketing and sales call and
they're talking about all thesethings that they're going to do
for your book, and then you getthis beautiful arc and on the
back of the arc is, you know,national book tour, social media
(18:47):
blitz of messaging and thislaundry list of things.
Now, the truth is that thoseare ideas and possibilities.
They are not guarantees.
But I think that so manyauthors see that and I see this
posted all the time where peopleare like I'm getting a book
(19:09):
tour because it says so on myARC and I'm like you're going to
end up heartbroken because thisis not reality.
And a publisher might say to youwe love this book so much.
We see a long relationship andwe see you growing with us.
(19:30):
We want to be part of thatjourney.
The truth is that may very wellhappen if your book is a
success.
Remember, publishing is abusiness.
I think we forget thatsometimes.
If you're successful, thatjourney will be lovely.
If your book bombs which is like95% of books that get published
(19:53):
don't even earn their advanceback I don't know if that figure
is right, but it's ballparkright that journey is going to
end really fast because they'regoing to stop betting on you.
It is no longer a long-termrelationship where they're like,
okay, well, this book didn't dogreat, but we'll just build on
that and keep going.
No, they're going to switch tosomebody else who, potentially,
(20:15):
is going to have a big fit, abig hit.
No, I'm going to have the bigfit.
That's the wrong thing.
They're going to have a big hit, but I mean, that is just
business.
Think about any other businessproduct, not books.
That's just the way it works,right, if you are an A-list
author, you're going to have adifferent experience than if
(20:37):
you're B-list.
If you're B-list, you are on thestruggle bus from moment number
one and you have to decide,based on that reality, if it's
something that you want to dothat you can handle, that the
upside is enough to balance thedownside.
What are your goals?
What does writing give you?
You have to answer all of thesequestions and then I think for
(20:59):
me, having been in this for solong, like I have been really
excited and I've been reallybitter, but now I'm just kind of
like I see it for what it isand it makes me.
I'm not angry about it anymorebecause I see the reality of
publishing and you really doneed to understand the reality
(21:21):
rather than what you're hearingpeople say to you about okay,
we're going to do this, we'regoing to do that, they would
love to do all that for you.
They can't do all that foreverybody.
It's just not realistic and Ithink that if you can handle
reality, then you can just goalong and have as positive an
(21:41):
experience as possible.
If the reality just kind ofdoubles you over in agony, maybe
that's not the path.
You're going to be doing a lotof the same work anyway.
You're going to have to pay forsome editing and polishing of
your manuscript and finding acover and distribution channels
(22:01):
and whatnot all of that stuff.
But at the end of the dayyou're in full control of
everything, as opposed tofeeling like you've handed the
reins over to somebody whodidn't really want to take them.
Lisa Schmid (22:15):
Well, and I think also, I think all publishers and
editors have good intentions,totally, but they are so
overwhelmed and I have no ideawhat's going on behind the
scenes at any publishing house,but you can tell that they're
(22:35):
overwhelmed Like it's just, it'sacross the board, universally,
from every single editor orwriter I've ever spoken to.
They're just like.
You know, I was just talking tosomebody yesterday.
I'm like how are you doing?
What's going on with your book?
She has two books in contractright now and she's like yeah,
I'm being ghosted on both ofthem.
I haven't, you know, I haven'theard anything from my editor in
(22:57):
months.
I have no idea where my editsare.
I mean, and that is a normal,that's two books and one of
these books is like she's anA-list.
You know what I mean.
Well, I don't know if she'sA-list, but she's just like yeah
, I don't know, I don't know.
Beth McMullen (23:18):
It?
I don't know, I don't know,it's it's true, it's true.
And I think that I think thateditors are called upon to wear
hats that are not necessarily intheir wheelhouse, so skills
that they need, that they don'tnecessarily have, that they're
being asked to use.
So I mean, I've had an editorwho was an amazing editor.
She would look at themanuscript and the things that I
(23:40):
was like I don't know, I can'tquite figure out what's not
working.
She could zero.
She was like laser focused onthe stuff and her editorial
letters were a roadmap to justvastly improving the book.
Even if it was a manuscriptthat I thought was pretty good,
(24:00):
she would elevate it everysingle time.
She was excellent.
She still is excellent, she'sstill out there doing excellent
work.
But the stuff that she also hadto do for the book, the sales
and marketing stuff, thetimeline stuff, where the you
know where everything is goingto be, how much time you get to
(24:21):
manage your edits, all of thosethings, those she was not as
good at, and because that thatwasn't really the skillset that
attracted her to publishing inthe first place, her to
publishing in the first place.
So when you're asking editorsto wear all these hats.
Inevitably something is goingto fall by the wayside.
(24:43):
I totally get that.
It's too much work,no-transcript.
Lisa Schmid (24:54):
I think anytime we've had an editor on it's a
taco truck.
I'm there.
Anytime we've had an editor on,I've always been shocked to
hear, like how much stuff theyhave to do, like just in the
acquisitions process and thebusiness side of it, and you
know just.
And then you add the editingand managing their writers, and
(25:17):
I mean just everything that theyhave to do and then getting you
know they're, they're mappingout their time, and then they
get you know one or twomanuscripts shoved onto their
thing and they're just like Ican, just I have visuals of
their heads exploding.
So this isn't, you know, thisisn't, like you said, shade on
any editors.
This is the industry, andthere's something inherently
(25:38):
broken when you know, every timeI talk to a writer, they are so
fried and so burnout and feelso abused by the process that
they just want to leave.
You know, and that's I mean.
I think we've talked to maybe ahandful of writers on the show
that are like this is the bestthing ever, and they are A-list
(26:01):
authors where you're justsitting there listening to their
experience going oh my God, I'mlike what is happening over in
this magical land.
Beth McMullen (26:10):
It's night and day.
It is.
It is night and day.
It's really different.
It's really different.
Night and day.
It's really.
It's really different.
It's really different.
And it's again it's.
God bless you if you can getthere and and enjoy the ride.
But the vast, vast majority ofworking writers are not in that
group and they're dealing with avery different universe.
(26:33):
And I mean I guess the takeawayis to just really understand
reality and go forth knowingpotentially what is going to
happen, so when it does happen,you don't feel blindsided or
shocked to be in the situationand it also allows you to plan
(26:56):
things to prop up your effort.
Again.
Nobody loves your book morethan you.
Nobody wants it to succeed morethan you.
So you are going to have to getin the game.
You cannot leave all the workto the publishing house because
they can't do it.
They can't do it.
You have to be ready.
(27:17):
You have to have a plan of yourown for how you're going to
support your book.
Lisa Schmid (27:21):
I think one of the other things that and I had this
is another conversation I hadwith an author offline that you,
when this happens, when you getorphaned or you're, you know
you're getting shuffled to theside and they're not.
You're not getting the samekind of attentionuffled to the
side and they're not.
You're not getting the samekind of attention.
And it doesn't mean your booksany less.
(27:42):
You know any less well-writtenor it's any.
You know it's just as good asthis other person's or whatever.
But because they haven't shownthe same attention for like
promotions and they're not doingyou know Times Square
billboards or you know runningAmazon ads or Goodreads
giveaways, I mean whatever it isthey're doing for some other
book that's garnering all thesesales, that's awesome.
(28:05):
But if they're not doinganything for you and you don't
get the sales and it tanks yourbook, then it tanks your ability
to get a new book deal or agood book deal.
And so that's the thing I thinkis so frustrating is that not
only are they tanking that bookby not showing it the care and
consideration it was promised attime of signing, they are also
(28:28):
taking, you know, tanking yourability to get a new contract or
a decent contract.
Beth McMullen (28:34):
Oh, it's absolutely true.
I mean, I would, in manycircumstances I would take a
smaller advance that I know thatI can earn out, as opposed to a
larger one that I'm never goingto earn out, because then I'm
now wearing that you know thatbaggage, or carrying that
(28:55):
baggage of not having earned outmy book.
You know that baggage, orcarrying that baggage of not
having earned out my book, andthat is a hard thing.
If you're going for anotherbook to another publisher,
you're going to have to explainthat, because now, why would
they take a chance on you?
You didn't succeed when theycan take a chance on somebody
who's new and fresh Right.
(29:16):
So I think there's definitely,you definitely have to be
planning in advance how you wantto handle that situation,
provided that your book doesn'tgo the distance and now,
forevermore.
That is attached to you, that'syour reputation, it now belongs
(29:37):
to you.
How are you going to explainyou?
How are you going to explain it?
How are you going to navigatearound it?
What does it do?
How do you dig yourself out ofthe hole?
You end up in author jail andhow do you get out of it Right?
Lisa Schmid (29:50):
And that's another thing where you know those are
conversations that you have tohave with your agent and they're
probably not really fun becausethe agent's probably looking at
the numbers going how am Igoing to sell?
You know, how am I?
Even you know your next book isgreat, but how am I going to
sell it when you know I'mlooking at your numbers and
they're not awesome?
And so it just.
It's just this quagmire and Ifeel like this is such a Debbie
(30:11):
Downer episode, but this, Ithink this is just one of those.
Let's be real about publishing.
Beth McMullen (30:18):
And that's what I'm saying.
I'm saying understand thereality, understand the
limitations of this bookcontract, of this process that
you're going to step into.
It is a limited process, sounderstand the reality of that
and then you will be lessbrokenhearted when things happen
(30:38):
to you and you will be moreable to adjust and do the things
that you need to do to makeyourself a success.
I honestly do not believe inliving in this fantasy world of
like books or somethingdifferent than any other product
that a company is trying tosell right Because for the
publisher they is trying to sellright Because for the publisher
(31:00):
they are trying to sell aproduct.
So you have to think about itas a product on a certain level.
Of course, writing is not likemaking shoes, but at the end of
the day the selling part is thesame.
So you have to just live in the.
You have to live in the realworld, because otherwise you're
just going to get your heartbroken.
Lisa Schmid (31:20):
Yeah, and I don't want that for people.
No, and I think again, that'swhy we're having this, because
we debated.
We're like oh my gosh, this issuch a real topic.
Beth McMullen (31:29):
You are totally right when you said so many
people are showing up with thissame thing, like asking the same
question about why do I feelthis way, why does publishing
make me feel this way?
And we have definitely seen abig uptick and people feeling
like they got run over by a bus.
Lisa Schmid (31:48):
I get it, you know it's, it's hard.
When my debut book came out, Iremember I was just like, oh,
awesome, you know.
And then, as you know, as I'vegone through publishing, as I've
gone through the world, like Iam like sitting in a rocking
chair smoking a cigarette, likestaring around, like yeah, this
is how it is, honey you knowwhat, and we should.
(32:10):
There is a lot of joy inpublishing and a lot.
We're just giving you a reallydark side of it right now,
because that's not Well, no,it's not a dark side.
Beth McMullen (32:18):
It is a real angle on it.
It is not everybody'sexperience, but it is the vast
majority of people who arepublishing in today's day and
age.
Right, but I also I think whatwe need to remember is that
writing and publishing are twodifferent things.
I always go back to the writingbecause in my DNA I am
(32:43):
absolutely a writer and will beuntil the day I drop dead.
That's just my reality.
I can't not do it, but I havelearned over a lot of trial and
error that I can separate thetwo.
So I can work on somethingbecause I love it and it's fun
and it's a story I want to telland I'm thinking about it all
the time and I'm showing up atthe page to write the book.
(33:06):
I'm not thinking about sellingit.
I'm not thinking about thepublishing process.
I'm not thinking about thefuture of that book.
I'm thinking about it right inthe moment.
Book.
I'm thinking about it right inthe moment and by doing that I
am so happy to keep writing.
Whether or not I publish thatbook is for later.
I don't need to think aboutthat until later.
Lisa Schmid (33:34):
And if you've had a bad experience or you've just
gone through a trying you knowpublication experience, then
it's okay to take a break andregroup.
And sometimes it's just youdon't even need to be writing
because if you've gone through abad experience and the
editorial was a mess or whatever, you do get that burnout
feeling where you're just like Ican't even like pen to paper or
whatever.
I can't, I don't even know howto write anymore.
(33:54):
My brain's too frazzled and Ihate everyone and I'm just done.
And, like I said, like ifyou've ever been really hung
over and you're like I'm neverdrinking again and then suddenly
you find Friday rolls aroundand you're like God, that glass
of Chardonnay sounds really good, that's where you'll end.
You'll eventually get to thatplace again, trust me.
Beth McMullen (34:16):
That is great.
That is the perfect way todescribe it.
We have also been talking aboutand this is kind of related we
are going to be starting aprivate Facebook group
associated with writers withwrinkles, and it will be a place
to come and talk about writingand writing only.
(34:37):
Lisa and I will establish somesort of office hours with that,
so we'll be live on occasion inthere for people to just come
hang out.
When that is ready to go, it'sgoing to be in our podcast notes
, so we will keep you posted onthat and, of course, we'll send
it out on our socials.
A note on our socials, we haveleft Twitter X, whatever it's
called, so you can find us onFacebook.
(34:59):
You can find us on threads,instagram and blue sky, and
Lisa's really good at showing upin all of those places.
So if you have something youwant to discuss or thoughts or
whatever, find us there.
So, listeners, that is it fortoday's episode.
We hope this will help younavigate the choppy waters of
publishing, and we are back onNovember 25th with episode 39.
(35:23):
And we will be talking to VickiWeber, who is a literary agent
at Creative Media Agency and abestselling author.
So if you want to join us.
For that, please tune in, anduntil then, happy reading,
writing and listening.
Bye, lisa.
Lisa Schmid (35:41):
Bye Beth, bye guys.
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