September 21, 2020 • 9 mins
Every good story needs a protagonist. Whether they are a golden hero, or a brazen anti-hero, we need someone to root for. Join us today as we delve into what makes a great protagonist, and how it may or may not connect to so-called "Archetypes.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Heroes, Anti-Heroes, Losers, or Winner?
(00:09):
My name is Ken Mears, and I'm Melissa Fales, and welcome to Writer's World.
A protagonist, according to Merriam-Webster, is, quote, the principal character in a literary
(00:40):
work such as a drama or a story, quote.
Growing up, I was taught that the protagonist was the hero in the story, and the way I remembered
this was Peter from Peter Pan is the protagonist, because both start with P. While remembering
the antagonist, I pictured Captain Hook's hook being drawn out, as I said that, and
(01:02):
that would help me picture it.
Often stories for children or young adults, the protagonist tends to be a little black
and white, and as I got older, the stories got more complicated as I got older, and I
started seeing that the main characters in the books I was reading weren't always in
the right, and that didn't used to make me feel uncomfortable.
Ken, why do we need to talk about the protagonist?
(01:25):
Well quite frankly because they are central to any story.
The protagonist is the person we root for, the one we desire to succeed above all the
other characters.
Without a protagonist, there's no point in having a story.
Not to mention, without a protagonist, you can't have an antagonist, which means no conflict,
and conflict makes a story.
So Ken, how do you write a good protagonist?
(01:46):
The same way you make a genuinely good character, making them human.
When writing a protagonist, you need to ensure that they aren't just a plain old invincible
superman who does everything right all the time.
A good protagonist doesn't even necessarily have to be wholly good.
Many of the best protagonists have flaws, and a lot of grey actions.
Great protagonists are neither wholly good or wholly bad, but rather something in between.
(02:09):
Something vital to writing a good protagonist is knowing them quite well.
Do your best to know them like you know any of your friends and family.
That way you can write them the way they are, not in an idyllic way, but the way a real
person would react.
There are obviously many different types of protagonists.
Something I want to talk about in our discussion on protagonists is archetypes.
(02:29):
An archetype discussion can actually become very complex with different ranges and ideas,
but a definition from Wikipedia describes an archetype as quote, a constantly reoccurring
symbol or motif in literature, painting, or mythology.
This definition refers to the recurrence of characters or ideas, sharing similar traits
(02:53):
to various seemingly unrelated causes in classic storytelling, media, etc.
A Carl Jung archetype is the hero's journey, and there are many theories on this.
An archetype is something universal in everyone.
That everyone is born with not a blank state, but rather a preformed structure.
Like if you study ancient civilization across the globe, you will notice that they all have
(03:17):
similar symbols in them.
These traits are universal, and the term used is the collective unconscious.
For example, we have to have that darkness is scary, bad, and hurts the hero.
And based on the research by Carol S. Pearson, PhD, she goes ahead and divides all heroes
into 12 archetypes.
(03:37):
The innocent, the orphan, the warrior, the caregiver, the seeker, the lover, the destroyer,
the creator, the ruler, the magician, the sage, and the fool or jester.
Now when I read these titles, I could actually picture most of them in my mind just by the
title.
And what Carol Pearson actually has a quiz where you can go and see which one you are,
(04:00):
which will be linked in the show notes.
Ken, which archetype were you?
Surprisingly and unsurprisingly for those that know me, I was divided between three
archetypes.
I am equally a caregiver, creator, and seeker.
Wow.
Love that.
I really wanted to be the creator, but I'm actually a seeker, like by a long shot.
(04:23):
And so you may be wondering, why are we talking about archetypes on an episode about protagonists?
Well, protagonists are these archetypes.
And I think if you identify the archetypes, your character is turning up to be or who
you want them to be.
You can create a very successful protagonist because it will be a character that we somehow
get.
(04:43):
For example, I'm a seeker, as I mentioned, and the seeker's greatest pitfall is self-imposed
loneliness and also how we need to do it for ourselves, avoiding the support of others.
When I read this, I understood why I enjoyed literature such as A Man's Name, Ove, and
movies such as Gifted.
I enjoy reading about characters who overcome these types of challenges that I subconsciously
(05:07):
have to deal with.
Ken, what kind of protagonist do you enjoy reading about?
I am personally partial to protagonists that are either sort of a golden standard of a
hero or a seriously flawed one.
Within the realm of archetypes, probably ones like the warrior and the destroyer.
In general, I prefer the kind of protagonist that is often unwillingly the hero, especially
(05:28):
in fantasy, and I just love me a good, flawed protagonist.
Well, what is your favorite type of protagonist to write about?
Definitely my favorite type to write about is a kind of altered golden hero, the kind
of hero that is fairly common in today's writing where they're trying to do what is right,
but either they keep messing up or something from their past haunts them.
(05:49):
Those are the ones that I find have the most interesting stories, the most conflict, and
therefore the most stuff to write about.
And I feel that every book an author writes is a memoir of some part or piece of his or
life, and I tend to strive to write about protagonists who are very distinctive, but
I tend to write about protagonists who are the seeker archetype and typically loners.
(06:11):
I did want to talk about how protagonists have changed over time, but I don't really
think that they have.
Ken, do you think that protagonists have changed over time?
I definitely think the popular type of a protagonist has changed over time.
When you look at the more ancient writings, like those of Greek myth and legend, they
were often presented as fairly two-dimensional.
They were the hero, and that is all that mattered.
(06:33):
However, I don't think that is quite enough for modern times, and I think that protagonists
have changed to fit a new standard.
Over hundreds of years, protagonists have gotten more complex.
The stories are no longer just about the cool adventures of the hero, but rather about the
hero themselves and how they have changed.
A protagonist is no longer and always do-gooder, and often make morally gray decisions.
(06:56):
Many get more backstory than the ancient stories gave their protagonists.
In fact, we have even seen so-called anti-heroes show up more recently, especially in the
21st century, which are protagonists that are often objectively bad, but are still the
protagonists of the story.
I think that the archetypes have always been, but what's popular or not definitely shows.
(07:16):
With the ancient Greeks, the classical warrior hero is very popular, with perhaps the lover
being in there, and perhaps our collective learning has enhanced more.
Archetype characters have appeared, but I am not the expert, and that kind of ruins
the whole idea of an archetype.
That new ones appear, but anyways, I think it's a question of whether the author does
(07:39):
a good job of presenting the character, whether it's Geoffrey Chaucer or Shakespeare, and
side note, Shakespeare actually does show archetypes really, really well.
Ken, how do you present a protagonist well?
I would say by presenting them in their entirety.
Now, by that I don't mean drag down your story with a thousand pages of backstory that perfectly
(08:01):
explains who this person is and why they are what they are, but present the protagonist
as a flawed human or elf or dwarf that can and does make mistakes, that doubts themselves
or gets lifted up in pride, shows a real person, and we have a really well presented protagonist.
Also, I would keep in mind that not everyone is going to enjoy your protagonist.
(08:22):
They're just not going to feel or enjoy that archetype story and that's life.
Feel free to send in any thoughts that you might want to share with us on this topic.
We might do a part two.
I find it very interesting and we hope that today's episode was helpful.
If you like our podcast, please share it with your friends and family.
For sources in the transcript, visit writersworldpodcast.weebly.com.
(08:44):
Our Instagram and Facebook is Writers World Podcast Official and our Patreon is patreon.com
slash Writers World Podcast and if you want your questions or concerns answered, our email
is writersworldpodcast at gmail.com.
Until next time, I have been Ken Mears and I've been Melissa Fales with Writers World
and keep on writing.
Heroes, Anti-Heroes, Losers, or Winner?
(00:09):
My name is Ken Mears, and I'm Melissa Fales, and welcome to Writer's World.
A protagonist, according to Merriam-Webster, is, quote, the principal character in a literary
(00:40):
work such as a drama or a story, quote.
Growing up, I was taught that the protagonist was the hero in the story, and the way I remembered
this was Peter from Peter Pan is the protagonist, because both start with P. While remembering
the antagonist, I pictured Captain Hook's hook being drawn out, as I said that, and
(01:02):
that would help me picture it.
Often stories for children or young adults, the protagonist tends to be a little black
and white, and as I got older, the stories got more complicated as I got older, and I
started seeing that the main characters in the books I was reading weren't always in
the right, and that didn't used to make me feel uncomfortable.
Ken, why do we need to talk about the protagonist?
(01:25):
Well quite frankly because they are central to any story.
The protagonist is the person we root for, the one we desire to succeed above all the
other characters.
Without a protagonist, there's no point in having a story.
Not to mention, without a protagonist, you can't have an antagonist, which means no conflict,
and conflict makes a story.
So Ken, how do you write a good protagonist?
(01:46):
The same way you make a genuinely good character, making them human.
When writing a protagonist, you need to ensure that they aren't just a plain old invincible
superman who does everything right all the time.
A good protagonist doesn't even necessarily have to be wholly good.
Many of the best protagonists have flaws, and a lot of grey actions.
Great protagonists are neither wholly good or wholly bad, but rather something in between.
(02:09):
Something vital to writing a good protagonist is knowing them quite well.
Do your best to know them like you know any of your friends and family.
That way you can write them the way they are, not in an idyllic way, but the way a real
person would react.
There are obviously many different types of protagonists.
Something I want to talk about in our discussion on protagonists is archetypes.
(02:29):
An archetype discussion can actually become very complex with different ranges and ideas,
but a definition from Wikipedia describes an archetype as quote, a constantly reoccurring
symbol or motif in literature, painting, or mythology.
This definition refers to the recurrence of characters or ideas, sharing similar traits
(02:53):
to various seemingly unrelated causes in classic storytelling, media, etc.
A Carl Jung archetype is the hero's journey, and there are many theories on this.
An archetype is something universal in everyone.
That everyone is born with not a blank state, but rather a preformed structure.
Like if you study ancient civilization across the globe, you will notice that they all have
(03:17):
similar symbols in them.
These traits are universal, and the term used is the collective unconscious.
For example, we have to have that darkness is scary, bad, and hurts the hero.
And based on the research by Carol S. Pearson, PhD, she goes ahead and divides all heroes
into 12 archetypes.
(03:37):
The innocent, the orphan, the warrior, the caregiver, the seeker, the lover, the destroyer,
the creator, the ruler, the magician, the sage, and the fool or jester.
Now when I read these titles, I could actually picture most of them in my mind just by the
title.
And what Carol Pearson actually has a quiz where you can go and see which one you are,
(04:00):
which will be linked in the show notes.
Ken, which archetype were you?
Surprisingly and unsurprisingly for those that know me, I was divided between three
archetypes.
I am equally a caregiver, creator, and seeker.
Wow.
Love that.
I really wanted to be the creator, but I'm actually a seeker, like by a long shot.
(04:23):
And so you may be wondering, why are we talking about archetypes on an episode about protagonists?
Well, protagonists are these archetypes.
And I think if you identify the archetypes, your character is turning up to be or who
you want them to be.
You can create a very successful protagonist because it will be a character that we somehow
get.
(04:43):
For example, I'm a seeker, as I mentioned, and the seeker's greatest pitfall is self-imposed
loneliness and also how we need to do it for ourselves, avoiding the support of others.
When I read this, I understood why I enjoyed literature such as A Man's Name, Ove, and
movies such as Gifted.
I enjoy reading about characters who overcome these types of challenges that I subconsciously
(05:07):
have to deal with.
Ken, what kind of protagonist do you enjoy reading about?
I am personally partial to protagonists that are either sort of a golden standard of a
hero or a seriously flawed one.
Within the realm of archetypes, probably ones like the warrior and the destroyer.
In general, I prefer the kind of protagonist that is often unwillingly the hero, especially
(05:28):
in fantasy, and I just love me a good, flawed protagonist.
Well, what is your favorite type of protagonist to write about?
Definitely my favorite type to write about is a kind of altered golden hero, the kind
of hero that is fairly common in today's writing where they're trying to do what is right,
but either they keep messing up or something from their past haunts them.
(05:49):
Those are the ones that I find have the most interesting stories, the most conflict, and
therefore the most stuff to write about.
And I feel that every book an author writes is a memoir of some part or piece of his or
life, and I tend to strive to write about protagonists who are very distinctive, but
I tend to write about protagonists who are the seeker archetype and typically loners.
(06:11):
I did want to talk about how protagonists have changed over time, but I don't really
think that they have.
Ken, do you think that protagonists have changed over time?
I definitely think the popular type of a protagonist has changed over time.
When you look at the more ancient writings, like those of Greek myth and legend, they
were often presented as fairly two-dimensional.
They were the hero, and that is all that mattered.
(06:33):
However, I don't think that is quite enough for modern times, and I think that protagonists
have changed to fit a new standard.
Over hundreds of years, protagonists have gotten more complex.
The stories are no longer just about the cool adventures of the hero, but rather about the
hero themselves and how they have changed.
A protagonist is no longer and always do-gooder, and often make morally gray decisions.
(06:56):
Many get more backstory than the ancient stories gave their protagonists.
In fact, we have even seen so-called anti-heroes show up more recently, especially in the
21st century, which are protagonists that are often objectively bad, but are still the
protagonists of the story.
I think that the archetypes have always been, but what's popular or not definitely shows.
(07:16):
With the ancient Greeks, the classical warrior hero is very popular, with perhaps the lover
being in there, and perhaps our collective learning has enhanced more.
Archetype characters have appeared, but I am not the expert, and that kind of ruins
the whole idea of an archetype.
That new ones appear, but anyways, I think it's a question of whether the author does
(07:39):
a good job of presenting the character, whether it's Geoffrey Chaucer or Shakespeare, and
side note, Shakespeare actually does show archetypes really, really well.
Ken, how do you present a protagonist well?
I would say by presenting them in their entirety.
Now, by that I don't mean drag down your story with a thousand pages of backstory that perfectly
(08:01):
explains who this person is and why they are what they are, but present the protagonist
as a flawed human or elf or dwarf that can and does make mistakes, that doubts themselves
or gets lifted up in pride, shows a real person, and we have a really well presented protagonist.
Also, I would keep in mind that not everyone is going to enjoy your protagonist.
(08:22):
They're just not going to feel or enjoy that archetype story and that's life.
Feel free to send in any thoughts that you might want to share with us on this topic.
We might do a part two.
I find it very interesting and we hope that today's episode was helpful.
If you like our podcast, please share it with your friends and family.
For sources in the transcript, visit writersworldpodcast.weebly.com.
(08:44):
Our Instagram and Facebook is Writers World Podcast Official and our Patreon is patreon.com
slash Writers World Podcast and if you want your questions or concerns answered, our email
is writersworldpodcast at gmail.com.
Until next time, I have been Ken Mears and I've been Melissa Fales with Writers World
and keep on writing.
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