"The Rise & Fall of Basketball Star Maurice 'Kojak' Fuller"

Episode Transcript
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(00:15):
From the city of Chicago, a citymost recently known for its
crime and violence.
On this podcast, we will besharing stories of redemption
from individuals raised in thetough streets of Chicago and
from around the country.
Some of them were gang members,drug dealers, incarcerated
victims, and perpetrators ofviolence.

(00:36):
Listen to my guests as theyshare their experiences,
struggles, trauma, but also thestrength, Hope, faith and
perseverance.
These have developed in them tokeep pushing and moving forward
in life.
Tune in to hear how their liveshave gone from darkness to light
and from wrong to strong.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
To another episode of Wrong the Strong.
My name is Julio Mercado.
I'm going to be your guest hosttonight.
thank you for joining intonight.
We have, our brother MauriceKodak Fuller with us tonight.
Um, Maurice, for joining ustonight.
We appreciate you being here,um, taking the time out, you
know, to spread your word andwe'll see you next time.

(01:18):
And just let us know, you know,what's going on with you.
How you doing tonight,

Speaker 3 (01:22):
man?
I'm good.
I'm good, man.
Thank you for having me on, man.
Uh, I'm excited.
I'm excited.
And just to, just so you know,um, it's cold Jack is with the
J.
K.
A k, right?

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Not

Speaker 3 (01:37):
that I kj.
K.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
No, you good?
You good?
Good.
Well, man, yeah, thanks forhaving me on, man.
It's a pleasure, man.
I'm excited.
Heard some great things aboutyou guys, man.
Uh, what you guys are doing,man.
I think it's wonderful, man,especially for the kingdom of
God, man.
So, yeah, man, I, I was excited,you know, just to know that this

(02:00):
may be a possibility for me to,uh, come on and just, you know,
share.
Uh, man, just how good God hasbeen, man, in my life.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, man, we're glad to have you on the wrong.
The strong tonight, man.
And, um, you want to tell us alittle bit, a little bit about
yourself, like, where you grewup at, maybe describe it, you
know, where you're from and.
You know what it was likegrowing up there is, you know,
as a young him.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Absolutely, man.
Born and raised in Anderson,Indiana.
You know, small town in Indiana,man.
It's like 20 minutes north fromIndianapolis.
Um, growing up, man.
Great place, man.
economically strong, had acouple of general motor plants

(02:44):
here, man.
Um, to where it was just reallygood, uh, man, very community
oriented, uh, environment, man,family was strong together, man.
It was, man, I had a childhood,you know, um, And it was
wonderful, man, you know, forthe most part, man, um, grew up

(03:04):
in the, in the era, man, whereindividuals was very competitive
doing everything.
See, we stayed outside, youknow, it was baseball, you know,
basketball, football.
I mean, man, we playedeverything, man, jumping ramps,
you know, racing your bicycle,everything, man.
It was just very competitive,man, uh, growing up, uh, in the

(03:25):
era that I grew up, man.
Uh, so man, I'm thankful, man.
Not saying that, you know, uh,my upbringing was perfect.
You know, but man, listen, man,it was, uh, I had a childhood,
man, um, raised by a strongmother, man, strong woman, man.
Uh, my pops, man, you know, hewas just like hit and miss, you

(03:46):
know?
Uh, but the thing about it is,man, right now, me and my pops,
we like that, man, because now Iunderstand, you know, what it
is, you know, the challenges ofbeing a father, man.
And so, man, yeah, you know,back then.
Just didn't have, you know, uh,that father figure had a lot of

(04:07):
my uncles and them, they were,you know, in my life, um, seen
them because our family wasalways close, uh, neighborhood
individuals, man, uh, plenty ofthem around mentors, but never
has somebody to really say, youknow, I'm a really walk with you
because.

(04:28):
I grew up knowing how toentertain, knowing how to play
the role, smile on the outside,dying on the inside and nobody
knew.
Right.
So, um, to say that I had thatindividual that I can keep it
all the way 100 with.
I didn't have somebody that Ican be honest and say, man, I'm

(04:48):
struggling here, man.
I'm struggling there, man.
What do I need to do?
And so what I did was I usedbasketball, man.
Uh, like I said, I played all,all different sports, man,
baseball, football, and waspretty good in, in, in those
sports.
But I started getting moreattention playing basketball.
So what I did was I startedusing basketball as a defense

(05:10):
mechanism.
I thought to myself, if I becomereally good in basketball, then
people will address me based offof what I do well and they won't
investigate, you know, uh, that,that part of my life to where I
didn't want people to knownothing about.
So, you know, here it is playingbasketball, man.
And that's what people did.

(05:31):
They did exactly what I set outfor them to do, man, which was
address me, uh, by what I didwell, man.
And that was basketball.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Like, did you have any like role models growing up?
Like, you know, who were yourrole models at that time when
you were, you know,

Speaker 3 (05:45):
man, you know, um, it really wasn't, man, as an
athlete, man, my role model,man, I mean, because I had a lot
of older cousins, um, you know,Like I said, man, I come from a
Anderson, Indiana, man, is verysports oriented, man.
You had.

(06:05):
Individuals that play sports,big time sports.
You know, we had some NBAplayers come from, from, uh,
this small town, man.
Um, but for, for me to say, man,did I have a mentor, somebody
that I wanted to be like, man,there was one, there was one
individual, man.
He was my favorite basketballplayer.

(06:26):
Uh, his name was MylonStubblefield.
He was short like me and man, hejust had a, a big man.
presence on the court, man.
But, uh, to say, did I haveanybody walking me through life,
dealing with life issues as amentor, man, I didn't have that.

Speaker 4 (06:44):
Okay.
All right.
So you just kind of just makingyour own way on, just trying to
figure it out on your own.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah, man, I did a lot of that.
I did a lot of trying to figureit out on my own, especially
when I started experiencing, youknow, certain things in my life,
you know, um, just thinking thatnobody would understand.
You know, uh, some of the thingsthat I experienced, man.
And so I felt like I was on anisland.

(07:11):
But like I said, you know,basketball was a way for me to
escape, not have to deal withsome of the issues that I was
going through in life that gaveme an opportunity to escape and
really focus in on, you know,trying to be the best basketball
player so I could cover upreally.
So

Speaker 2 (07:31):
you say like.
So you can you come from likethe same era I did the outside
era, you know, where we wereactually outside.
Like you said, day and night atthe park.
Yes, sir.
You know, catch one catch allstuff like that, you know,
actually outside playing kind oflike, yeah, we're kind of like,
you know, watching everybody'seach other's kids and

Speaker 3 (07:53):
absolutely, absolutely, man.
Yeah,

Speaker 2 (07:56):
that's a lost generation.
That was a great generation.
I feel like it made really likeit made us independent if
nothing else, you know,

Speaker 3 (08:03):
man, listen, and that's why I say, man, I had a
childhood, you know, because youlook at a lot of youngsters now.
Man, you know, they skippingthat childhood and they going
straight into, I want to be anadult.
I have to grow up faster thanwhat, you know.
Uh, but man, I had a childhoodlike you saying brother, you
know, man.
Yeah.
Being outside the neighbors hadthe, you know, had the Okay.

(08:27):
The permission that if we gotoutta line to get us back in
line.
Absolutely.
You know?
Yeah.
It was, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yes.
That's exactly how it was too.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
Absolutely, man.
Absolutely.
So

Speaker 2 (08:38):
how in school, like, so, um.
You know, like, uh, tell meabout your school years.
Like, how was it?
You know, how was that?
How were you?
Like, how were your grades?
Like, you know, obviously theymust have been okay because you
was on the team, right?
So, oh,

Speaker 3 (08:49):
absolutely.
So, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
What do you think kept you rooted like that?
What do you think kept you sostructured?
Was it was like, hey, I got tokeep up these grades so I could
play ball or You know, what doyou think?

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Hey, I'm sitting here.
I'm chuckling, right?
Because you asked me thatbecause I would love to say it
was just basketball.
But listen, man, I had, man, mymother, man, listen, I had one
of the mamas, you know, she wasvery convincing, man, that I
brought you to this world.
I take you out, you know,listen, man, I ain't want no

(09:21):
smoke.
I ain't want to have to dealwith my mom.
Right.
So man, I was one of them onesand she was real, you know, she
was real strict and she made itknown that, listen, you don't
get these grades, you don't getto do nothing, no outside, no
sports, no nothing.
So it was like, man, I need toget these grades, you know, so I
can be able to do those things,you know?

(09:43):
Um, yeah, man.
So she, she was very, she wasvery, you know.
Listen, Adam, this is what we'regoing to do.
You get them grades, then youcan, you can have the freedom,
you know, to do what you want todo when it comes to sports wise,
man.
So that was, and then, you know,when I started hearing these
talks of going and playingcollege basketball, man, and,

(10:07):
and starting to understand thatyou have to have a certain GPA,
you know, so now I'm like, Oh,okay.
Now school is starting to becomeserious to me.
You know.
But like I said, man, I just, Iwas mediocre in school, not
because, um, that I struggledwith learning.
was just a simple fact that, youknow, just dealing with life and

(10:30):
trying to deal with life as ayoung man, you know, um, man, it
just, I'm gonna do enough justto get by.
You feel what I'm saying?
Just enough to get by man.
So I can keep doing what I wasdoing and that's playing
basketball.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
So how about in the house?
Was there, you know, was therelike any religion in the house
and talk about God in the house?

Speaker 3 (10:52):
Man, you know, you know what, man, and this is
what, and I'm gonna say this,man, but I'm so, I'm thankful,
man, that I didn't grow up inchurch.
And, uh, and, and the reason whythat is, man, is because after
experiencing having arelationship with God, man, um,
I just see how things are sosystematic,

Speaker 5 (11:14):
man,

Speaker 3 (11:15):
you know, individuals know when to show up at church,
they just know the churchrhetoric, you know, they know
the church behavior, you know?
And so, man, I wasn't raised inchurch.
My mama didn't make us go tochurch, but my grandma, she was
the one that listened when shecalled, she like, looky here,
this Sunday.
They go into church, them boysgoing to church and man, listen,

(11:36):
man, we had to go.
So, you know, I would get up,man.
Hey man, listen, the only thingthat interests me about church
was the drum.
Listen, when they would praiseand worship, man, I'm sitting
there looking at the drummer andI'm like, that's the only thing
that kept my attention, man.
Because you know, I don't knowhow your experience is, man, but

(11:58):
I mean, just understandingchurch now, you know, a lot of
us, man, we struggle withevangelizing young people.
So if we struggle withevangelizing young people now,
you know, it was really, youknow, uh, there was no way we
was evangelizing young people,just really speaking over their
head.
I had no idea.

(12:19):
what it was about or anything,man.
uh, the only, uh, the only, uh,talks of Jesus Christ, man, it
was through my grandma.
God bless.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
God bless.
So, um, so what you startedplaying, what in like, in high
school or like when you went tohigh school, did that have like
your ball playing that have abearing on like what school you
went to, what high school youstarted off at, or did that
really kick in towards college?

Speaker 3 (12:47):
No, that really kicked in.
Well, I mean, you know, in.
In our, uh, city, we had threehigh schools, right?
Uh, and all three of them wascompetitive.
So whatever side of town youlived on pretty much that, you
know, kind of filters, they hadmiddle school.
We had.
Three middle schools, you know,um, South side went to Madison

(13:09):
Heights.
Highland went to, that was theEast side.
Highland went, I mean, East sidewent to Highland on the West
side.
They went to Anderson, Andersonhigh school.
Uh, and so it would just matterwhat, you know, what's the town
you live, what side of town youlived on and, and man, um, so as
sports, you know, one thingabout sports, every last one of

(13:30):
them was competitive, so, youknow, but you have more.
Like Anderson High School, youknow, it's like, man, the
tradition at Anderson HighSchool, it's like, man, I want
to be an Indian.
I want to go there.
Right.
So it's pretty much man, um,started playing when I started
getting good, man, you know,high school coach who show up to

(13:53):
the middle school games, showinginterest.
And then I had an older brothertoo, man.
Uh, my big brother, man, he wentto, matter of fact, he went to,
uh, Highland and then hetransferred to Anderson high
school.
And so, man, it was like, man,I'm following big bro.
So man, and it worked out, youknow, cause I wanted to be that,

(14:14):
you know, I wanted to go there,um, and then my brother ended up
going there, so I just followedhis footsteps, man.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Okay.
Walk me through the college tothe, so what did you got?
You get drafted, like, you know,like get some scholars, man,

Speaker 3 (14:30):
uh, high school, man, I'm gonna tell you, man, high
school basketball here atAnderson, man, was, we have the
second largest high school gymin the world,

Speaker 5 (14:39):
man.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
Uh, here.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was, man, listenbrother, when I say Friday
nights in this small town, frithe weekends.
Going to a basketball game washighlight man.
I mean, you got people comingfrom all over the country just
to see, you know, the wig one,we had a pre-game show because

(15:00):
our mascot was an Indian, so wewere called Anderson Indians.
Man.
We did a, they did a, uh, aIndian dance with the, with the
Indian.

Speaker 5 (15:09):
Wow.
Uh,

Speaker 3 (15:10):
and then, uh, Indian Maiden.
Listen, man, I'm telling you, Imean, off the charts, man, it
was, and so people would cometravel just to see that.
So the atmosphere was electric,9, 000, almost 10, 000 people in
the high school gym.
And I'm telling you, man, Imean, you, they were scalping

(15:31):
tickets.
To where listen, that's what Imean.
Yeah, it was that big man.
So, you know, um, coming fromthat type of environment, man,
it was really big, man.
It was really, really big.
And so the thing about evengoing to that next level in
college, man, I could have wentto any school in the country

(15:51):
except for Duke in NorthCarolina, right?
I think they just didn't wantme.
You know what I'm saying?
I just didn't mess her up.
That was cool, man.
Um, but the thing about it is,man, I had my first child at 15.

Speaker 4 (16:07):
Oh, okay.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
So, yeah, man.
So, so here it is.
I'm playing basketball, andthat's why I was saying, you
know, some of the things that Ijust didn't want people to know.
So I wanted to make sure thatThey knew basketball so they
wouldn't dig into what's goingon with this young man, you
know, uh, so when colleges gotwind that I had kids that young

(16:30):
man, they kind of, you know,they was backing off like, man,
that's just, that's too muchbaggage, you know, for a young
man or for them to invest.
In a young man with, you know,those types of responsibilities,
this young, you know, because,uh, a lot of people may not
know.
I mean, but we're finding outnow that, you know, uh, college

(16:51):
men is money.
You know, when you talk aboutscholarships, you talk about
spending money, you know,listen, I'm talking about giving
you 50, 000 a year, scholarship,everything paid for that's
money.
So am I willing to invest?
This money on this young manright here, you know, when he
got other responsibilities thatmay take president over what we

(17:15):
trying to do.
So, a lot of colleges wasbacking off, man, you know, when
they started hearing about mehaving kids.
by the time I was a senior inhigh school, I had three kids.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
Oh man, you're busy, huh?
You're busy on and off.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yeah, come on man.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
On and off

Speaker 3 (17:33):
the court, man.
Busy, man.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
Walk us through that.
I mean, like, so, so now you'regoing to school full time.
You got, you know, you got threekids.
Are they living at home withyou?
You guys are, you know, at herhouse.
Like, you know, what's theliving situation like now?

Speaker 3 (17:47):
No, I mean, I'm living with my mom still, you
know, uh, I'm still in highschool, very active in my kid's
life, man.
You know, um, always had, um,always been there, but I'm a
young father.
So I really don't know too much.
I do know how to play with them.
No, you know what I'm saying?
It's been time.
So, you know, that's pretty muchwhat it was, man.

(18:09):
I was always just present.
You know, didn't really haveanything to give them because
all I really knew really wasbasketball and, and, and how to,
you know, chase, chase, youknow, young girls, you know, so
that's pretty much all I knewmyself, man.
But, you know, one thing aboutthat Julio broke is that, you
know, individuals, when theystarted hearing about the kids,

(18:33):
what they didn't understand was.
I was setting myself up to for agreat fall and, and, and I
didn't notice at the time, youknow, and, and I didn't have
nobody to really pull me to theside and be like, Hey, listen,
you know, let me help walk youthrough this because man, you're
about to face a major hurdles inyour life.

(18:55):
And I had no idea because now Ihave kids, but I don't know what
a father is though.
I don't know what it is to goout and provide, you know, my
mama, you know, she held downtwo jobs minimum.
So, you know, she was working,but she's a female.
I'm talking about to had thatmale presence to go out and
listen, this is how you go out.

(19:16):
This is how you establishfinancial stability for you.
I didn't have that, you know?
And so naturally what kids do isthey Man, I look and I see what
everybody else doing.
So I just followed the crowd.
And, and so that's exactly whatI started doing, man.
So I started gambling, you know,trying to get a little money to,

(19:39):
to kind of help support my kidsand whatnot and do, but I ain't
gonna say to help support, but Iwas doing that right.
Um, next thing you know, then Igraduated.
Now I'm trying to hustle, selllittle drugs here and there, but
I'm playing basketball.
So as I graduate.
And now I'm the type ofindividual, man, I was

(20:00):
experiencing some fame to somenotoriety too.
And I had no idea how to dealwith this either.
So maybe

Speaker 2 (20:07):
I seen the articles, you know, you're on the news,
everything like, you know, youwere kind of the big deal over
there for a while.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
I was, man.
I was.
And I ain't know how to dealwith that either.
You know, nobody walked methrough how to deal with being
in the limelight.
And so, man, I became addictedto that though.
Because I'm going to the grocerystore and I got kids, you know,
I hear them talking to theirparents.
Mom, dad, that's him.

(20:40):
And they would come up, man, I'msigning autographs in the, in
the grocery store, man, just allaround, man.
And, and that became veryaddictive to me, you know, so,
so that was my, if you, youknow, for lack of words, my drug
of choice, you know, man, that,yeah, yeah.
So here it is now.

(21:02):
Three kids, no clue what afather is.
I'm trying to figure it out.
Now, high school is over with.
Now it's time for me to go tocollege.
So I ended up going to thisjunior college.
Down in Vincennes, Indiana.
So the thing about it is though,I'm still, I'm still just lost,

(21:23):
man.
No clue, man.
What, what to do.
Um, and so I ended up, I've beencoming back and forth to home,
back and forth home because thisis like two out, two and a half
hours away from, from myhometown.
So I was coming back and forth,like.
On a regular, man.
And, uh, next thing you know, Iended up catching a drug case.

(21:47):
Um, and so, I ended up leaving.
I ended up leaving Vincennes andgoing to another school in Baton
Rouge, Louisiana, running frommy legal issue.
So, you know, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm running.
I'm running from a lead.

Speaker 5 (22:04):
No,

Speaker 3 (22:05):
no, no.
I'm out of here because mymindset is, well, if I'm back in
school and I'm doing what I'msupposed to be doing, that that
will just, you know, uh, cancelout what I did.
Okay.
You know, and so, but thatwasn't the case, you know,

(22:26):
wasn't really work like that,right?
Right.
But you couldn't have told methat though, Julio, because for
the simple fact, I was thinkingthat because.
I was playing good basketballand I was Mr.
Basketball that certain thingsthat I do, I may be able to get
away with.
They slapped me on my hand.
Look, don't do that no more.

(22:47):
You need to stop doing that.
Get your life together.
But it wasn't like that.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
No,

Speaker 3 (22:53):
no.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
It seems like you had, you had like.
Kind of had direction, but youwere lacking much direction,
like you kind of knew like, oh,yeah, I want to play ball, but
it kind of like it kind of endedthere.
Like, you didn't have like yourlong term plan was kind of
lacking right there.
Like, you know, and it's just,you know, it sounds like, you
know, kid, your age at that age,you know, I think we're all like

(23:14):
that.
So I could see where, you know,Where, you know, not having the
role models, like you said, totell you, Hey, this is what we
do, you know, and not to takeyou through, you didn't have
that, that male figure to takeyou through and walk you through
it, you know, like, and we allright,

Speaker 3 (23:29):
you

Speaker 2 (23:29):
know,

Speaker 3 (23:30):
absolutely, bro.
That's the part you right, man.
So it was like, man, I know whatI wanted to do.
But how do I do

Speaker 2 (23:40):
it?

Speaker 3 (23:41):
What's the process?
What's the discipline that, thatI have to apply and, and, and,
and maintain in order for me toget there.
I didn't have that.

Speaker 4 (23:50):

Speaker 3 (23:51):
So I often say this man, talent without wisdom
becomes destructive.
Uh, everything.
Yeah.
Talent without wisdom becomesdestructive, man.
And I had all the talent in theworld, man, but I didn't have
the wisdom.

Speaker 4 (24:08):
Yeah,

Speaker 3 (24:08):
I'm talking about the wisdom of God.
How can I apply, you know, whatI've been blessed with, man?
How can I apply that to my lifeto where Uh, it'll be for my
good, but for God's glory.
So for me not to even have nounderstanding of God, I, man,
you know, hey, this is, I'm onmy own.
I'm doing my own thing, youknow, I built this.

(24:30):
And so,

Speaker 2 (24:31):
man, I was

Speaker 3 (24:32):
just close.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
So, so, all right, so you caught a case, right?
You tried to just spin off on itand pretend like it didn't
happen.
So you're, now you're back.
you're, you're even furthersouth now at this time, right?

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
So I'm walking through that.
So what's going on now?
I mean, eventually they're goingto come looking for you, right?
I'm assuming

Speaker 3 (24:49):
that absolutely because then what they did was,
um, so we had a team lawyer thatI told him about it and they
call, he called up and try to,you know, kind of get it squared
away.
Well, once they found out whereI was, then they immediately
told them, listen, Okay.
If he don't come home, thenwe're coming to get it.

(25:11):
So I had to leave school and Ihad to leave school and come
home, but I still didn't comehome.
See, I didn't come home.
So I thought I had to get somemoney to have a lawyer.
Before I turned myself in.
So now I'm out here.
I'm still trying to hustle, man.
So I didn't do nothing.
Just make things worse, man.

(25:32):
And, uh, and I ended up gettingcaught, man.
Thanks, man.
Glory be to God, man.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Walk us through that.
Oh, break that

Speaker 3 (25:41):
down.
Yeah.
As a matter of fact, man, it wason Thanksgiving night, man.
You know, uh, at this time, man,I'm, I'm indulging in marijuana,
a little bit of drinking, youknow, but man, heavily smoking
marijuana, man, smoking weed,man, uh, that, that became my
cope, you know, my escape.
through everything, man.

(26:02):
And so, uh, I went out, man, tothis club, man.
And it was so, I know somebodyhad to call and tell him that I
was in there because they walkedright up to me, man, and just
tapped me on my shoulder, man.
It was just, this is like, comeon, man.
So, yeah, man.
And that just started the legalthat just started me going

(26:24):
through.
Now, this is what where Istruggled at really was because
when I made my mistake.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
How old are you at this time?
So the first drug case you'rehow old?

Speaker 3 (26:35):
At this time, well, actually there was a, uh, it was
like a little gun charge that Icaught when I came home.
That's when I caught the drugcase.

Speaker (26:47):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
You know, that, that, that year that I came home and I
was trying to make money.
So I wouldn't, you know, so, uh,I would have some, you know, an
advocate, a lawyer to help medeal with this issue.
Right.
And so that's why I say I justmade things worse, man,
compounded.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
This time, like about, about

Speaker 3 (27:07):
what, and I'm like, I'm like 20, like 21.
Okay.
So, yeah.
So, so I'm like 21

Speaker 2 (27:14):
club.
They come, they tap you on andthey take you in, take us from
there,

Speaker 3 (27:21):
man.
And from there, that's wheneverybody became, everybody was
in my business then because itwas in every, uh, social media,
every media outlet, man, on allof our news stations.
You know, all around Indiana,man.
Um, and then even in USA today,man, it was, I mean, it was

(27:42):
really public, man.
Um, so now I got to face notonly what I did, man, but now I
have to face the shame, um, thatI brought on myself, on my
family, uh, dealing with my kidstoo.
Um, so yeah, man, that, that wasreal.
I was really broke at that time,man.

(28:04):
Um, to where now it's like, man,I want to change, but I don't
know how.
So now I'm at that point, youknow, and I mean, how do I
change, man?
And my grandmother, man, that'swhy I'm so thankful for her
because she, she never gave up.
She would always tell me what Ididn't want to hear.
And that was that pain.
Listen, baby, you need jeans.
You need to stop doing whatyou're doing and you need Jesus.

(28:27):
And I'm saying to myself, man, Iain't trying to hear that.
I just came for a glass ofwater.
And.
And so when I got caught, that'swhat was playing in my head
because now I'm like, man, howdo I change?
I want to, but I don't know how.
And so that's when I was like,man, I'm going to try this Jesus

(28:49):
stuff.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
And my prayer.
You get booked.
Are you in the county jail whenyou're, when you're thinking all
of it?
All right.
So how's that going for you?
Like, yeah,

Speaker 3 (29:01):
man.
So I'm gonna tell you, as amatter of fact, it was very
interesting, man, how I got, uh,how I got arrested, man.
Um, again, You know, uh, afterthat, you know, because when
they tapped on my shoulder inthe club, that was for really
the gun charge.

(29:22):
I didn't even know that I caughtthe drug charges.
Oh,

Speaker (29:25):
wow.
Okay.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Yeah.
So I was just running from thegun charge.
So they was going to deal withme on a gun.
I had no idea I had, uh, thedrug charge.
So, uh, I'm hanging, I'm playingin the, in the basketball
league.
At this point we about to playthe city police.
And so, you know, when you outthere in the streets, you know,

(29:47):
everybody is, you know, hate thepolice.
You know, man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We wanna slaughter them, right?
And so I'm like, I'm about to gofor 50 on them, you know, I'm
about to get 50 points on them.
So we get there and, and we'replaying and we're, I mean,
destroying them, man.
And I'm laughing at'em.

(30:08):
And, and because it's so easyfor me, right?
But I'm not understanding whythey're laughing as well, man.
They laughing like they knowsomething.
I had a nice, uh, Figaro, uh,rope on my neck.
You know, and they like, man,where'd you get that?
Where'd you get that necklacefrom?
And I bet they cost a lot ofmoney.
I'm not knowing though, youknow, I'm not knowing what they

(30:31):
know.
They're throwing

Speaker 2 (30:33):
shots.
They're throwing shots.
Yeah.
You don't know what they'reshooting yet.
Okay.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So The guy that I rolled to thegame with, he ended up being my
pastor too, after I got out ofprison for some time, man.
But, uh, he was just telling meon the way to the game, how he
was hustling, how he was makingmoney.
Well, I heard that they, uh,indictments were out and they

(30:59):
were serving indictments.
So I was saying, man, I'm done.
I'm not about to be doing noneof this.
Cause I don't want to get caughtup on an indictment.
So, uh, went to the game, we wasblowing them out.
They let me leave and we pulledup to a gas station and there
was a sheriff that pulled upand, and he like blocked, got in

(31:21):
front of the car that we was in.
I'm in the passenger seat and hegets out and I hear him on his,
on his, uh, radio saying, yeah,I have Kojak right here.
So in my mind, I'm like, wait aminute.
Now I'm replaying stuff.
You know how you like, man,okay.
Yeah, I'm going back and I'mreliving everything, man.

(31:44):
Like I ain't been doing none.
I got paid my child support, notknowing that they had already
had me on two, on two, um, drug,uh, sales, you know, not even
knowing that man and everybodythat we just got done playing
with, they came down, man.
And do serve me those warrants.

(32:05):
He served me the warrants, man.
I'm about fainted.
I'm about fainted because I hada class a felony dealing within
a thousand feet of a school.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Oh man.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
Yeah, man.
So, so that's minimum 20 years.
Oh man.
I mean, I literally aboutfainted, man.
And so that's when.
I'm at the point to where I wantto change man, but I just don't
know how

Speaker 2 (32:30):
did they take you into custody at that point.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
You get to the, you get to the county jail now what
you're booked.
You ain't going nowhere.
You got bond, no bond.
What's going on with that?
Like looking at that point,

Speaker 3 (32:46):
actually I did have a bond, but the only person that
was going to bond me out was,was, was my guy, my big brother
that I had met in college.
Who, uh, who was also, you know,uh, doing his thing, man, big
time hustler.
And he never wanted me to dosale, no drugs.

(33:08):
He always told me, man, listen,I'll take care of you because he
always looked at it, like if Imake it, then he ain't gonna
have to do what he did.
You know, but unbeknownst tohim.
The more that I'm around him,the more I'm like, man, listen,
I want this too.
I want to be my own man.

(33:29):
I want to take care of my ownkid.
I don't want you taking care ofme.
You know, this is what's goingon in my head.

Speaker 4 (33:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yeah.
So as I'm locked up, man, Icouldn't get in touch with him
at first, man.
God is so strategic, man.
I couldn't get in touch withhim, man.
It was like, man.
So now I'm going on two weeks inthere.
And it's like a hundred thousanddollar bond.

(33:57):
Now I need to go to get a bondreduction and I'm sitting there
and I'm just like, man, I don'tknow what's going on on what to
do.
And I'm just lost.
Uh, but it was like, it wasalmost like.
Man, I'm glad I always knewbrother Julio.

(34:18):
I always knew man, the thingsthat I was doing, that it wasn't
me.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
I would be saying to my son, huh?
Your grandmother told you thatman, listen, man, prayers

Speaker 3 (34:31):
and all that, you knew, man, but I always knew I'd
be like, man, like I was betterthan what I was doing, man.
I was better than how I wasliving, man.
But I was so caught up in front,you know, uh, for everybody,
man.
I was so caught up in front,man, that I ignored it.

(34:51):
But when I got in there, man, itwas almost like, man, now I
ain't got the front no more.
You know, I ain't got the highno more, but what do I do?
And that's when I, that's whenI, uh, gave my life to Christ,
man.
But what was so, what's sointeresting is this, man.
I sat there in my prayer to Godthough, because this is what I

(35:13):
prayed to him.
Didn't nobody lead me to Christ,man.
This is how I accepted it.
I was like, man, you know, God,I don't know you, but I want to
know you, but I want to know youlike nobody else do.
I heard about you, but I ain'tnever seen you though.
See, I want to see you though.
And I said, man, listen, I'mgonna go all the way with you.

(35:36):
Because if this stuff ain'treal, I'm gonna tell everybody,
man, this stuff fake.
I said, man, you can have mylife.
That's, hey, listen, that was myprayer.
My salvation prayer, rightthere.
That was it, man.
And, and what was so crazy, man,was God did a quick work.
I didn't understand what he wasdoing.

(35:56):
Uh, man, my, my love for theword of God was But he knew what
he had to do because I was sowounded because I was, I was a
man of, of, of, of great socialstatus, athletic status to where
a lot of people knew me, youknow, uh, being Mr.
Basketball, that's the bestbasketball player in Indiana.

(36:20):
And so a lot of people knew me.
So then when everybody found outthat I made the mistake.
Now, I don't have nobody singingthose praises no more.
You know, the very thing that Itold you I was addicted to, I
ain't have that no more.

Speaker (36:34):
Wasn't

Speaker 3 (36:34):
no more, hey, I love you Kojak, wasn't no more all
you all that on the basketballcourt.
See, wasn't no more none ofthat.
Let me ask you

Speaker 2 (36:42):
something.
So, what'd you say?
I said, let me ask yousomething.
Did you feel like Like almost asense of relief,

Speaker 3 (36:52):
you know, I won't, I won't say relief what I'll say,
because remember it was likewithdrawals because that was my
addiction.
That was my addiction.
You know, I allowed the words ofman to put me on such a pedestal
to where, when I didn't havethat no more, my fall was great,

(37:14):
man, it was great.
And I was damaged emotionallyand mentally, man, because I
didn't know what it was to be aman.
I didn't know what it was to bea father.
So I thought basketball was whoI was.
So when there was no morebasketball, I'm really lost.
And I'm addicted to, I'maddicted to the attention that

(37:35):
basketball brought

Speaker 5 (37:36):
me.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
So here it is.
I'm gonna try to find thatattention in whatever Avenue I
got to find it in.
So if that's selling drugs andwhatnot, to where I can be the
man, then guess what, drivingnice cars, having money, having
the women or whatnot, thenthat's what I want to do.
And so I don't have any of that.

(37:58):
So now it's like I'm Jones inlife.
Man, what do I do, man?
And I'm just like going throughwithdrawals, man.
And, and, and there's nothing,there's nothing that can satisfy
me at this point.
And so it's like, when I gave mylife to Christ, man, it blew me

(38:18):
away because it was like, Iwasn't Jones in no more.
So now I'm like, man, wait aminute, man.
Like what's, so now I'm just,I'm thrown off.
Like, man, what is this man?
And so.
Man, he really increased my lovefor the word of God, man.
I started reading, man, and myunderstanding of what I was

(38:41):
reading, man, it was coming sofast to where I just wanted to
share it with people, man.
And there was one situation whenI was incarcerated, man, uh, my
lawyer, my court appointedlawyer, she was, uh, uh,
Anderson Indian fame, the highschool that I went to, she was a
big fan, right?
And man, she was so angry withme though.

(39:04):
She was so, she was supposed tobe defending me, but she was so
angry because I had leteverybody down.
Oh, wow.
To where, yeah man, to where itreally affected how she, how she
defended me, you know.
And um, one day man, I woke upman and I felt like God was

(39:24):
telling me, hey listen, I wantyou to ask the judge if you can
go home.
Now, I got 30 days before I goto trial.
And, uh, I have been in therealready for like September,
October, November, December,January, February, six months.
I've been, I've beenincarcerated six months.

(39:46):
Right.
And so I just felt like God wastelling me, you know, Hey, ask
the judge, can you go home?
So I asked my attorney, I said,Hey.
Can you ask him, can I, becauseI got 30 days before I go to
trial, I wanted to get home andtalk to my kids and let them
know what was about to happen.

(40:07):
To kind of give them someunderstanding.
Hey, you know, man, I made amistake.
This is what's going on.
This is what I may have to do,you know?

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Okay, let's back up for a second.
So, so you're going back andforth to court, right?
So what are they talking about?
Like they bringing you cop outs?
You know, they, they, they tryto get you to plead guilty.
Like, what are they talkingabout giving you at this point?
What are your options?

Speaker 3 (40:32):
Man, listen, man, you know, that was another thing,
another great blow, man, becausethey wasn't willing to work with
me.

Speaker (40:39):
They

Speaker 3 (40:40):
wasn't willing to drop, you know, to drop that,
that real class a felony to a,to a class B because that class
a felony back then is mandatorytime.
You have to, you have to do, uh,uh, some, some.
Some type of DOC, you have toexecute it DOC wise, right?

(41:01):
So they didn't want to dropthat.
Had they dropped it, the judgethat I had, they would have gave
me probation, but they would notdrop it.
They wouldn't work with me.
They said, listen.
You got a class a and a class B.
We're going to give you 20 yearsfor the class B and we're going
to get you 10 years.
I mean, we're going to give you20 years for the class.
Hey, we're you 10 years for theclass B.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Would that be a 50 percent or are you going to do
the whole thing?
85?
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
Yeah.
Back then.
Yeah.
Back then that was, you know,two for one.
So that was 50 percent of that.
So that's 10 years minimum.
But see 10 years, wait a minute.
Man, individuals think you.
Right,

Speaker 2 (41:43):
right, right, right.
It's not like, you know, Hey,you're gonna stay overnight,
like talking about right here,you know?

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Man, come on, man.
Yeah.
And so I'm listening to.
And I don't know if you've beenthere before, but then, you
know, you get a lot ofindividuals incarcerated
talking, Hey man, all this iswhat they going to do.
You know, everybody knoweverybody's a lawyer in jail and
they going to tell you what theygo, what's going to happen.

(42:11):
That's it.
You know what they did for oneperson.
They go automatically do for youtoo.
Right.
So they telling me, Oh man, youdang, you ain't going to do no
more than two years.
They're just trying to keep up.
Yeah, I can't even see myselfdoing two years.
I'm like,

Speaker (42:30):
what, man,

Speaker 3 (42:32):
listen, no, sir.
So when they was talking about,okay, you got 20, you know, all
together, they talking like aclass a go from 20 to 50 years,
and then the class B go fromeight to 20 years.
So they saying 70 years.
I'm like, man, now, come on,man.
You know, I mean, they justsaying potentially that's what

(42:55):
that could be.
But because I don't know,

Speaker 2 (42:57):
it's the max they could

Speaker 3 (42:58):
get.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Right, right,

Speaker 3 (42:59):
right.
But I don't understand.
I'm understanding 70 years.
So they like, Hey, listen, thisis what you do.
We're not dropping anything.
This is what you need to do.
And it was really trying to getme to, you know, definitely work
with them.
Definitely.
Hey, where was you getting yourdrugs from?

(43:20):
And, and, and like I told him, Isaid, man, listen, y'all caught
me.
I take full responsibility forwhat I've done.
And so that's what I'm gonnadeal with, man.
And, and that's how it went,man.
But all alone, God working withme though.
So you get, I get all of this,man.
And I don't understand.
Why I'm not just losing my mindbecause they talking about all

(43:43):
this time.
And I'm like, man, wait aminute, man.
I was Mr.
Basketball, like, and bro, giveme a break or something.
Like, man, don't do me likethat, you know?
But the prosecutor is saying, Ohno, we going to really bust your
head because you was trying touse that you to Mr.

(44:04):
Basketball.
And because of that, wasn'tnobody going to do nothing to
you.
So he was making it seem like.
That I was really just trying touse that, you know, uh, take
advantage of that, you know,

Speaker (44:19):
yeah,

Speaker 3 (44:19):
man.
So he was adamant about, youknow, Oh no, no, no.
We don't make an example out ofhim.
So any other athletes that'scoming up that think that they
could just get out here and selldrugs and do this.
Man, we're going to make anexample out of you and let them
know that they can't do that.
Wow.
So it's like, Oh my God, man.

(44:42):
So now dealing with that and myattorney, she even brought that
up.
They're not about to let you gohome for the SIP.
And she was like, and I'm, Idefinitely wouldn't even even
ask for that because that's somuch out of her character.
And it's almost like I wasasking her to, you know, Really

(45:04):
like it was an insult for me toask her to Judge, if I can go
home and that's how she playedit.
Like, man, I'm not about to situp here and insult, you know, my
intelligence or, you know, myreputation.
I'm not about to do that.
That was an insult to me.
And, uh, and I'm about notabout, not about to tarnish

(45:25):
that.
Right.
And so she said, I'm not askingthe judge that.
And man, what's so crazy is bro.
When, when, when I, the nightbefore man, when God was
pressing in my spirit, Hey, Iwant you to ask the judge.
If you can go home to talk toyour kids.
And I was like, man, I'm gonnaask.
And so after I asked her to doit, she said, no.

(45:48):
So the judge was like, Hey, Mr.
Fuller, do you have anything youwant to say?
And man, listen, I was like,yeah, judge.
I said, uh, Hey, I was justwanting to know if I can go
home, you know, um, to kind ofhelp prepare my keys for what I
may have to do, you know, if I'mgoing to prison, man, I don't

(46:09):
want them not knowing.
What's going on and I want to beable to share, you know, and let
them know what I did anddifferent things and I just want
to go home.
It's like, yeah, I'll do that.
I release you today, man.
Listen, man, blew me away, bro.

(46:30):
Everybody was blown away.
I'm sure, man.
The attorney was so upset andthis was her, this was her main
thing.
That ain't never happenedbefore.
That ain't never happenedbefore, but I'm sitting up here
and I'm saying, but I serve, Iserve, I serve a God who
specializes in making history.

(46:51):
I was the first to do it, youknow?

Speaker 5 (46:53):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (46:54):
Yeah, man.
And so, um, that wasunbelievable, man.
It just blew me away.
Yeah, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, that blew me away, bro.
So I did not go home.
And I was able to talk to, youknow, uh, some of my kids, two
of my kids, their mom wouldn'tlet me see them because she was

(47:16):
like, you're not about to do mybabies like that coming to their
life and then you about to leaveagain for some years.
So they already hadn't seen youfor six months.
Let's just go ahead and keep itlike that.
So man, that was a struggle,man, for me, man.
So I didn't get a chance to seethem.
Um, but my other ones I did now,now mind you now, this is the

(47:37):
thing about this Julio, At thistime, I have four kids and two
on the way.
Yeah.
So while I'm incarcerated, Ifind out that I got two, that I
got two.
Yeah.
They in the oven.
They in the oven, man.
And I'm like, go Lee, man.

(47:59):
So, uh, 30 days come, I ended upgoing to trial, um, and they
find me guilty.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
So when he released you, was it for the night or he
just let you out like, you know,on your own recognizance till
trial?
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
Yeah.
He, yeah, he let me out on myown recognizance.
Yeah, he lemme go.
Okay.
Okay.
I didn't have to pay no bond

Speaker 4 (48:19):
and I had 30

Speaker 3 (48:20):
days works.
Yeah, he works.
He works.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I was out for 30 days.
Nice.
For a month, you know?
Yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Was it like a house arrest or you was just you was
out?

Speaker 3 (48:33):
No, I was out, but I did have to go up and report
like every week.
Okay.
I had to go up, I had to take adrug test, you know what I'm
saying?
Um, every week, any curfew oryou know, I'm like, yeah,
that's, say what?

Speaker 2 (48:47):
You have any kind of a curfew or anything, or,

Speaker 3 (48:50):
yeah.
So it was on probation.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah, it was so it was like Iwas always, you know, on
probation, those stipulations goup there and see him.
Uh, every Friday, uh, they takemy, uh, my drug screen and I had
to be in at a certain time.
Absolutely, man.
I think it was like 10 o'clock,you know, I had to be in.

(49:13):
Um, but I didn't have no problemwith that because see, now
there's some things changingabout me, you know?
Um, yeah, man, there's somethings, like I said, when God
was doing a quick work, he wasdoing a quick work, man.
And I didn't understand a lot ofthe things that I used to like
to do.
I wasn't doing no more.
And it was like, now I wanted tofocus in on doing better, man.

(49:38):
You know, there was one reason,there was one thing, man, that
really hit me when I wasincarcerated and, and, and I
really, really, that reallysparked me wanting to change and
really get better, my oldestchild.
My oldest daughter and my oldestson, I used to go eat lunch with
them at their schools once aweek, spaghetti day and chicken

(50:02):
and noodles with the mashedpotato day, you know, whichever
one I'm going every week to eatlunch with them.
Right.
And, uh, man, big kid, like Isaid, man, I'm a big kid.
So I would go to my daughter'sschool and mad kids.
They just always want to, when akid see a father come or a
parent come to school to eatlunch, man, everybody want to

(50:25):
sit with you and your child, youknow?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
It's not just.
It's not just any daddy.
It's Kojak, you know,

Speaker 3 (50:37):
man, man, come on, man.
And because, you know, thatplayed a role in what I'm about
to say, because after I got introuble and it was all on the
news, now them same kids cameback to school and was, uh,
teasing my daughter.
I, my mom and daddy said, yourdaddy going to jail, man.

(50:59):
My daughter had to leave school,man, because she was so
distraught, man.
Emotionally, man.
And she was just like, why mydaddy going to jail?
You know, all she knew was thatshe seen her daddy all the time.
They played all the time.
He always came to school and atelunch with him, you know, with
her.
And what my daddy do to where hegoing to jail, man.

(51:21):
And so I was like, man, I ain'twant that.
I didn't want that for mybabies, man.
But, and, and that's why I waslike, man, I want to change, but
I just didn't know how, and thatreally sparked it, man.
To where I was like, man, I wantto do something different.
Yeah.
So, like I said, man, after Godmoved and did something that

(51:42):
they normally don't do and theyopened the door for me, man, and
I was able to go home, uh, thenI come back, um, I'm going
through all the stipulations,drug testing, doing what I'm
supposed to be doing, even whenI'm home, I'm reading the word,
man.
And, and, and, and I'm nothanging out and I'm just.

(52:03):
So now in my mind is I ain'tgoing to prison.
God opened them doors.
I'm reading the word.
I ain't going to prison, man.
And, and I, and I went back andI went to trial and they found
me guilty.
They found me guilty, man.
And uh, they ended up, uh,sentencing me.

(52:24):
Sure did, man.
And, and they gave me 20 yearsfor that class A and 10 years,
uh, for the Class B.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
They did give it to you, huh?

Speaker 3 (52:34):
Yeah, they did.
They did, man.
And uh,

Speaker 2 (52:38):
that, you know, processing that, you know,
you're in the courtroom, youknow, you said at this time you
thought you were going homelike,

Speaker 3 (52:45):
you know,

Speaker 2 (52:45):
supposed to be doing I'm reading my scripture, you
know, God's word and you'rethinking, you know, you know,
his plans always greater thanours.
He always gives me

Speaker 5 (52:54):
always

Speaker 2 (52:55):
he answers prayer but.
Very rarely in the way that weexpect them to.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
Let's see.
Absolutely.
I'm like, hey, I got you toswitch the game.
But wait a minute, man.
This ain't going how I thoughtit was going to go, you know,
see, I think that was the deal.
That I think I made with God.
Well, God, look, I'm gonnafollow you, but it got to be on
my terms.
Like

Speaker 5 (53:23):
that,

Speaker 3 (53:24):
right?
It don't, no, it don't.
It don't, bro.
It don't.
But yeah, man, that was, so,that was, that was, uh, the time
where I went back.
But this is what I said thoughto myself, man.
I was like.
If I go to prison is because Godis wanting, wanting to teach me

(53:45):
something, or he's wanting me toteach somebody something that
was my mindset, right?
Um, still dealing with the fearof going into the unknown.
I ain't never been in thissituation before.
And it's like some of the thingsthat I've done when I was out
here in the streets andpretending like, you know, I'm,

(54:10):
I'm, I'm a street guy.
I'm out here.
I'm hustling and I'm pretending.
And so I'm doing some things,did some things to some people,
man, that, you know, to where Idon't know if some of them
people is, is in this prison.
Yeah.
So, so I, I have no idea.
And so it wasn't until now I'mon that bus ride,

Speaker 2 (54:33):
man,

Speaker 3 (54:36):
you guilty.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
So, you know, you, you're looking at, you know,
50%, but of 30 years.
So you're looking at 15 years,right?
So did they run it wild or didthey run them together?

Speaker 3 (54:50):
No, no.
They ran it together, but theysuspended the class B.
So that was just strictlyprobation.
Okay.
So you're looking at

Speaker 2 (54:57):
20 now.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
Yeah.
I'm looking at 20.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
So you're looking at at least 10,

Speaker 3 (55:02):
at least 10.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
Yeah.
If you go on a blue bird now,you're You're headed to your,
your new address for the next,you know, probably decade.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
Yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
What's it, how, how, what's going through your head?
I know that there's gotta be adark time for you.
Like you said, the unknown is,you know, anxiety of, you know,
like I'm going to this place.
I don't know what's going tohappen there.
Who's going to prepare, youknow, what are they going to do
to me?
I don't know what's going tohappen here.
You know, like, like at thistime, are you like, Are you just

(55:33):
trusting in God?
Are you calling out?
Are you confused now?
Like,

Speaker 3 (55:38):
man, listen, a whole lot of that going on, man,
because you know, going intothat atmosphere, it's almost
like you got to, you know, shutoff, you know, and then start on
a whole, whole differentpersona, whole different
individual, because now you gotto walk in.
Now you survival mode, you know,man, listen, boy, say anything

(56:02):
to me.
I'm, I'm, I'm hitting him in hismouth.
I got to get into that mode, youknow, to where it's like, I need
for them to know that you justcan't punk me.
Right.
But see, with me, I was like,God, I don't want to be in that
mode.
So I'm sitting up here on theway and I'm like, man, God, I
don't want to be in that mode.

(56:23):
So man, I need you, man.
And I'm talking to him likethis.
I'm like, man, God, you know,man, you know, I want to serve
you, man.
I don't know.
And I ain't about to just letnobody do nothing to me.
So I'm like, man, I need you toshow up, you know, do what you
did, you know, do what youalways do, you know, and I'm

(56:44):
reading the word and I'm saying,man, I want that favor that you
had that you gave Joseph, youknow what I'm saying?
So these are some of the thingsthat I'm talking about because
I'm fearful.
Because I don't know what I'mwalking into.
You hear the stories and nowthem stories become my reality.

(57:04):
And I'm like, man, listen, Iain't got to go off of what I
heard no more.
I'm about to face this.
Yeah.
I'm about to see this formyself.
And man, I never forget, man,we, we walking in, man.
And now you got, it was a coupleof individuals with me.
They went their way to theirdorms.

(57:24):
Now I got to walk on this bigold yard.
And I'm walking with my stuff,pushing this cart, man.
And I'm sitting up there and I'mlike, man, who's behind these
doors, man.
That really gripped me.
Like who behind these doors thatI may have to defend myself,
man.
And I don't know who, and towhere I just say, you trust me,

(57:48):
man.
I don't care what, man, I'mgonna trust you because this is
what I had in my The more that Isubmit to God, the less I'm
gonna be impressed.
That was my mindset.
So, yeah, so, so I'm like, man,God, if I get out here and let
you do what you do, I ain'tgoing to be here long.

(58:11):
So I'm not going to be playing.
I'm going to get out here andI'm going to let you do what you
do and let you work my life.
So I'm going to get back home tomy kids.
And, and man, when I got there,man, I made sure I connected
with the church.
And of course, I seen plenty ofindividuals from Amherst, my
hometown, you know, so I walk inand they, Oh man, Jack, you

(58:35):
know, and they greeted me and,and, and this and that out the
gate though, this is what I toldthem.
Because they got the mindset.
Are we about to run this?
I said, listen, man, if it ain'tabout Jesus Christ, don't call
me, man.
I ain't clicked up.
Ain't no hometown.
No, none of that, man.
I'm trying to get out of here.

(58:55):
I'm not trying to getcomfortable here.
I'm going home, man.
And so if it ain't, man, don'tcall me.
Matter of fact, who, where, howcan I get into the church?
And one of my big homies, hepointed me to an individual,
man, who's my big brother, evento the day, man, named Alonzo
Smith, man.
And, uh, he connected me withhim.

(59:18):
I was, and I rolled out with himfrom that time on, man.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Yeah.
Let me ask you something.
So, so you get in here now, now,now you're following your faith.
Like you profess your faith.
You know, you let everybodyknow, you know, I'm walking with
Christ.
I'm carrying my cross.
You know, what is your familysaying?
You know, the people back home,like, you know, like your baby
mothers and, you know, like thegrandmother, your mom, just the
people that know, you know, theyknow the old Kojak, you know

(59:44):
what I'm saying?
Like, what are they saying?
How are they, you know, arethey, are they taking this?
Like, you know, is this justjail talk or is this, you know,

Speaker 3 (59:53):
Hey, well, you already know society.
You know, everybody like, Ohman, he didn't got there.
He didn't did what?
Cause I had older cousins beforeme that didn't win.
I'm not saying, you know, theyclaim in Christ and talking
about, I changed it.
But I said, I told mygrandmother, man, and my

(01:00:16):
grandmother, she knew she waslike, yeah, and I would always
speak it to her, man.
And my grandmother knew.
I didn't do a lot of tellingpeople though.
I didn't do a lot of anybodyelse, uh, because they started
to see some of the things when Iwas in jail.
And so, you know, when I got toprison, it didn't change, you

(01:00:40):
know, so I'm still walking thisthing out now.
There's individuals in prisonthat they done heard about me,
especially now they want, theywant to challenge me.
On the basketball court.
So, you know, and then someindividuals just like, oh, well,
yeah, you know, yeah, we heardabout you, you know, and this
and that, but it wasn't untilthen where I really had to

(01:01:06):
really walk this thing outtalking about, man, I love Jesus
Christ because the last timesome of my hometown seen me, I
wasn't talking about Jesus.
I'm in the world.
So, As a matter of fact, becauseI'm sitting up here and I'm
false flagging, I want to be apart of Gangsta Disciple and I'm

(01:01:29):
just doing what they do, butthat really wasn't me.
So, I seen an individual inthere that pretty much brought
Gangsta Disciple, he was fromChicago, he brought it to
Anderson.
So when he seen me, he was like,Oh, little folk.
And so when I seen him, but Imade up in my mind.

(01:01:51):
So I was like, man, I ain't, Iain't that.
I ain't none of that.
So when we went to shake up andI did him like that, I said,
man, I'm gonna change man.
And he looked at that.
It's a big old dude, too.
He looked at And he said that,and I was like, bless the Lord.

Speaker (01:02:10):
Praise God, I know your heart.
I

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
said, boy, glory be to God.
I said, boy, God, you called.
Well, you know, but that wasjust a part of.
Me walking it out in front ofindividuals that knew me one
way.
And now I'm professing somethingdifferent, man.
So yeah, man.
So in prison, it was so wild,man, because I experienced that

(01:02:36):
Joseph effect.
So, you know, now I'm at a levelthree, so I do what I'm supposed
to do.
My levels drop.
They send me to anotherfacility.
This is where I met brotherDaniel, Pastor Daniel.
This is where I met him at.
I am in county, man.
So I go there soon as I gothere, man, it's, it's, it just

(01:02:58):
blows me away.
They're the number system on howthe beds go.
The odds, the odd number one Ohone.
Those are the lower bunk, right?
The even numbers are the topbunks.
The top beds, right?
So when I go in, everybody wanta bottom bunk.
Everybody want that bottom bed,right?

(01:03:19):
Some people, so when I go in,yeah, come on, man.
By any means necessary, by anymeans, So you right?
So when I go in, dude, alreadyin there, he's sitting on the
bottom bunk.
So naturally I'm like, ah,because I don't know the number
system.
But actually the number thatwas, my number was the bottom

(01:03:43):
bunk, but I don't know this.
So when I'm in there, so nowthis young dude, this dude in
here, he got like 29 days leftto go home.
He's smoking weed, smokingtobacco.
He got it all in the room,right?
And I'm, I got to sit there anddeal with this.

(01:04:03):
So I'm out, I'm out in, uh, inthe common area and I'm playing
chess a couple of weeks ago byplaying chess.
The, uh, the CEOs, they run inand, and, and check the room and
they find, they find thecontraband, the marijuana and
the tobacco.

(01:04:23):
Now I'm sitting there and I'mlike, man, dude, he, he hit, you
know, he didn't got hit now he,and he about to go home to your
bed though.
Come on now.
Come on, bro.
But guess what?
I still don't know this though.
So one of the big homies.

(01:04:44):
You know, he his ears to theground.
He know everything that's goingon in you know, in the
penitentiary.
I'm new to that.
I don't know what's going onreally.
So he get word that I got thatright up.
So he came to me.
He was like a man.
You need to go check, man.
I think they gave you that writeup.
Well, you know, if you get thatclass A, that class A write up,

(01:05:07):
then that's a whole nother yearoff of your sentence.
They take a whole year from you.
Good time.
And so, I just so happened to goin there and check, man.
And you sure right.
He was like, man, it ain't mine,so they gave it to whoever bunk
that was.
And yeah, and so that they gaveit to me, man.

(01:05:29):
So I was encouraged to jump onman.
You need to whoop him, man.
Y'all need to go bump, you know,you let him do that.
And so response was, man, I'mletting God deal with that.
That's exactly what I see, man.
I'm gonna let God deal withthat.
All I'm asking is that the truthcome out.

(01:05:50):
So I went in and hollered at mybunkie, right?
And I was like, Hey man, listen,uh, you know, they gave me that
write up.
He was like, man, listen, I gotyou.
I'm gonna write you a letter.
Cause you know, in prison, ifyou get in trouble, you still
got to go to, it's called CAB,you got to go to court inside a
prison to deal with write ups.
And so I had, I had, yeah, I hada court time.

(01:06:13):
I had a court date.
Um, so he wrote me a letter.
So he wrote me a letter sayingthat it, that it wasn't mine.
You know, yeah, he all that, youknow, it wasn't he is this and
that.
So when I took the letter tonow, I've been claiming
everybody from my hometown andgetting upset because I won't

(01:06:33):
fight.
But I'm saying to myself, man,God, I just want the truth to
come out.
I take the letter in there.
They read it.
They said, man, go get him.
So I went and got him and theybrought him back in there.
They said, Hey, did you writethis?
He said, yeah.
All right.
They said, is this true?
He said, yeah.
Now he got, at this time, he gotlike 16 more days left to go

(01:06:56):
home.
They said, okay, we writing youup.
Then he tried to change hisstory.
Oh no, no, no.
Look, I was just trying to writethat for him.
You know, I was just trying tohelp him out.

Speaker 5 (01:07:07):
So

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):
I looked at him and I said, bro, you, you really
saying that this, that that wasmine, man.
They said, no, we believe this.
They said, Mr.
Fuller, you exonerated, you freeto go, man.
They let me go and wrote him up.
And so now I'm like, glory be toGod.
I'm like, man, bless God.

(01:07:28):
Not knowing that now he's somad.
He's plotting to jump on me.
He want to fight me now becauseI wouldn't take his case.
Right.
Right.
So, yeah, so, so now, you know,through the grapevine, my guy
pull up on me and say, Hey man,you know, you need to, you need
to watch yourself.
So now I'm back in there and I'mplaying chess.

(01:07:51):
He cussing me out.
He talking all kinds ofcraziness and old school that I
was playing chess with.
He couldn't even play cause hewas listening to what dude was
saying.
And he said, man, you don't hearthat.
And I said, man, listen, whenyou know who you are, you don't
answer to any name.
And he looked at me and he waslike, what he said, what'd you

(01:08:14):
say?
I said, when you know who youare, you don't answer to any
name.
So he calling me punks all list.
I know who I am, so I don't haveto answer.
I'm not about to answer to whatyou call me.
Right.
And so, uh, we locked down and,uh, I talked to him.
I'm like, man, listen, man.

(01:08:35):
We can't be in here together.
He was like, man, you could havetook the charge for me, this and
that.
And, um, so I'm like, man, I'mtrying to go home.
So, uh, that was left alone andI'm praying now, this is what
I'm saying, man, God, I ain'tgonna just let him, you know,
just put his hands on, you know,I ain't just, you know, I ain't

(01:08:57):
there yet.
Turn another cheek.
I ain't, I ain't there.
You know, I'm still fresh ofbeing a baby, you know, baby
Christian.
So I'm like, I ain't going tolet him just, you know, sit
there and whoop me, man.
I'm not about to do that.
I said, God, I just need for youto move.
And what's so crazy is as soonas they came out, open the

(01:09:17):
doors, getting ready to go for adinner, they told him pack his
bags.
He was moved.
Oh, God's working.
Man, listen, man, I didn't killnobody.
God is faithful.
Man, listen, man, I'm tellingyou, man, they moved in, man.
And, and it was just, man, I wasjust blown away, man.

(01:09:41):
So those are some of the thingsthat, um, that God was just
doing in my life, man.
So I'm going to church, man.
I'm studying the word, man.
God is moving into prison, butI, you know, I'm a basketball,
I'm a hooper though.
So I'm still hooping.
Now he ain't take that fire fromme.
So I'm out there on thebasketball court.

(01:10:02):
I'm talking crazy and I'mwinning, you know, and so
individuals is getting upset,they ready to fight, you know,
and, um, my room, my bunk, youknow, he was from Gary matter of
fact, and I'm talking crazy andhe lost every game.
I whooped him every game.

(01:10:23):
Oh, he mad.
He come back.
Now we're in the door.
100 people.
He talking crazy.
Tell me how you how you wouldme.
How you gonna jump on me thisand that.
And I just politely said to him,I said, Man, listen, and we
called him dirty left.
I said, Dirty left.
Listen, man, I said, I ain'tbeen saved all my life, so it
ain't gonna go like you thinkit's gonna go.

(01:10:45):
Because now they're used to me,you know, man walking and So
many talking about Jesus and sothey just automatically assume
that you know, oh yeah, he want,you know, he a Christian, so
he'll let you do anything tohim, right?
And so as he's talking and doingthat, and I told him that, and
then I said, second thing is,man, we better than that.

(01:11:08):
I was like, man, come on, man.
I mean, man, I love you, bro.
We better than that.
And he came all the way down,deescalated.
Now he's doing Everybody in anenvironment where the mindset is
if you let one person do

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
it, everybody's

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
gonna

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
do it,

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
then it there.
So you're right.
Then everybody gonna feel likethey can do it.
So But brother, but pastorDaniel, he's watching though.
And I don't know this.
So he seen that and man, and hepulled up on me afterwards and
he was like, listen, I've beenwatching you.
He said, man, a lot of peoplecome and go talk about Jesus,

(01:11:49):
this, Jesus, that they leave andcome back.
He said, but man.
He said, you, you different whenyou, when you say that, and I've
never seen nobody do nothinglike that.
And so I asked him a question,man.
I said, uh, I said, man, who doyou trust?
I said, man, do you trustyourself enough to make the
right decision at the righttime?

(01:12:11):
And we had to lock down at thattime.
He said, man, I trust my mother.
Then I asked him about, do youtrust yourself?
He wasn't able to answer that.
And so he didn't even come andanswer that for like a week and
a half.
He didn't come back to me.
I mean, he said, man, thatquestion had him up.
Man, he couldn't even sleepbecause that question just

(01:12:34):
bothered him because at thistime, you know, he's running, he
got gains in every In every, uh,penitentiary in Indiana at this
time, you know, so he's a majorfigure, you know, um, and that
question bothered me, man.
And so he finally came to me andhe was like, man, no, I don't

(01:12:56):
even trust myself.
I said, man, you got peoplefollowing you, man, and you okay
with that, leading them down thewrong path?
And so I worked laundry.
And, um, well, I would get outat nighttime, 1030 at night,
when everybody else had to liedown.
That's when I went to work,washing laundry.

(01:13:19):
Me and God is by myself,studying the word, I'm reading,
it's quiet.
And, uh, a position came open towork with me, and Pastor Daniel
got the position.
And man, he ended up giving hislife to Christ, man.
He ended up giving his life toChrist, man.
In the laundry room, man.

(01:13:41):
I have one question.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
That

Speaker 3 (01:13:43):
one

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
question drove him right there.
Man.
Come on,

Speaker 3 (01:13:46):
man.
Come on, man.
So it was just amazing, man.
And, and, and how God moved,man, uh, in that situation, he
got saved out of the book ofNehemiah, because to me, the
greatest leader outside of JesusChrist, to me, as I'm reading
the word of God to me wasNehemiah.

(01:14:07):
So I'm reading Nehemiah to him,man, me and him reading, man.
And he got saved, man.
Um, some of his, some of hiscounterparts, they wasn't okay
with that.
So they approached me.
Yeah, you know, they like, man,you sitting up here, man.
You're the one did that.
I said, man, let me say, wait aminute.
Hold on time.

(01:14:27):
I said, man, you give me toomuch credit because I had the
power to change another man.
Me and you wouldn't even behaving this conversation.
Cause I would have started withme first.
Amen.
Right.
Yes.
I'm like, man, I would havestarted with me first.
I wouldn't even be here.

(01:14:49):
And so, man, I said, man,listen, if y'all mad at anybody,
man, be mad at God, take it upwith him, go talk to him, pray
to him and, and, and expressyour, your, your, your feelings
to him.
Cause he, the one did it.
I ain't not man.
So that was, you know, just.
A piece of man, uh, the favor,man, that God showed me, man,

(01:15:12):
while I was in prison, man, andI'm still not knowing what he
doing, I just know I love theword of God, man, I just know I
love the word, man, and, uh, andI'm just sharing it, so then
when individuals be like, man,you're a preacher, I'm like,
man, I ain't no preacher.
Because my understanding of apreacher was somebody that take

(01:15:32):
your money.

Speaker (01:15:34):
So

Speaker 3 (01:15:35):
yeah, yeah.
So that was my understanding,man.
So needless to say, man, prisonwas You know, it wasn't my, it
was, it was my, it wasn't mytomb.
It was my womb.
It was where God was knitting metogether, man, where he was, you
know, uh, uh, developing thingsin my life, man, developing me,

(01:15:57):
man.
Um, for me, for when I camehome, you know, a lot of the
things that I struggled with,they wasn't going nowhere.
So it was like, listen, man,them things ain't going nowhere.
So now you got to be at thepoint to where now when you face
him, you got to learn how totrust me.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
The build you up.

Speaker 3 (01:16:18):
So you're right.
So you're right, man.
And so when I came home, man,great challenges, man, but God
been faithful.
I ain't been faithful, man.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Let's walk.
All right.
So, so how much time did you endup, um, doing out at the 20 they
gave you?
So

Speaker 3 (01:16:36):
I did seven and a half, man.
God bless.
God

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
bless.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
Good.
Hey, man, I did seven and ahalf, man.
And you know what?
They started calling me causeeverybody would ask me, man,
when you get out and I will belike any day now, it'd be like,
man, okay, yeah, all right, bro.
But, but we, we get, that's whatyou believe.
It'd be like, but when youreally getting out,

Speaker 5 (01:17:02):
man,

Speaker 3 (01:17:02):
I mean, what does your paperwork say?
I say, oh, I don't go by that.

Speaker 5 (01:17:08):
You

Speaker 3 (01:17:08):
know what I'm saying?
I'm like, oh yeah, I don't, Idon't go by that, bro.
And then he was like, when youget, I said, man, any day.
And I didn't unpack a lot of mystuff.
So the stuff that I knew I wastaking when I leave, it was
already packed up.
You hear me, bro?
Yes.
Listen.
Yes.
Because one thing they wasn'tgonna have to do was wait on me

(01:17:29):
to get ready to exit when Godopened the door.

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
You lived it.
You lived it like you gonnahappen.
You know, you Yeah.
Had that faith, you know?
That's it.
So yeah, man.
Who call you to come home?
Tell us about that.
Tell us about that.
That day of.
Cause that was a glorious day.
Tell us about it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):
Listen, man, that was an awesome day, man.
So, uh, actually the sameprosecutor that my wife would go
up and go to scene and differentcommunity, people go up and be
like, Hey, You know, let himcome on home.
Even done enough time.
And the prosecutor was like, ifI get a bunch of visits, a bunch

(01:18:11):
of phone calls, a bunch ofletters, he going to do every
day, man, my wife go up there,man.
And I got married in prison too.
So yeah, man.
Yeah, man.
Uh, man, my wife, man, I waswith her in high school, you
know, when she was one of theones that I was with, but man,

(01:18:32):
she was one of the ones that,that I really like, Ooh, I want
her, man, but we gotreconnected, man.
Uh, yeah, man, we gotreconnected, man.
And we got married in prison.
So my wife, I was married forfour years in prison.
I was married four years inprison, man, before I came home,

(01:18:53):
man.
And, uh, that was it.
And that just go with that anyday now, because my wife would
ask me, Hey, when you goinghome?
When you come home?
And I'll be like any day.
So she finally said, Hey,listen, This four years and you
still talking about any day now,like, okay, I get that.

(01:19:16):
But, but you've been talkingthat mess for four years.
And I said, well, you know,actually I've been talking it
for seven, you know, you justcaught the last one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So man, listen, man, ended upcoming home.
Um, because the prosecutor, heended up writing a letter on my

(01:19:36):
behalf to the clemency board,uh, for the simple fact that
when individuals coming home andhad to go to court and the judge
would ask him, man, what haveyou been doing with your time?
They would always bring my nameup, man.
Kojak, you know, I've beenworking with him.
Bible study.

(01:19:56):
They would always bring my nameup, man.
That's why the prosecutor wrotea letter on my behalf.
He said, you know what?
I'm convinced, man, this dudechanged, you know?
Uh, yeah, man.
So I had to tell my wife that,you know, I was like, listen, he
don't have the last say.
So she come home crying, talkingto the prosecutor.

(01:20:17):
And I said, he ain't got thelast say so in my life, you
know?
Um, so I'm just letting youknow, don't get, don't get
caught up on him saying no.
Because if God say Yes, I don'tcare who say no.

Speaker (01:20:31):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (01:20:32):
And so, man, that was just so powerful to where I
never said anything to him.
He heard other people coming andtestifying about me, and he
wrote a letter to the clemencyboard on my behalf, talking
about releasing me Earth.
Amen.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
Amen.
Man.
Man, listen.
Now works.
He works everywhere.
He works everywhere, man.
Come on

Speaker 3 (01:20:54):
man.

Speaker 2 (01:20:56):
Then that just when you came home, what did you Um,

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
so when I came home, I was in work release.
Okay.
Yeah.
So when I came home, I was inwork release, man.
So I was supposed to do, I gotthe 10 year sentence.
I only do seven.
I only did seven and a half inprison.
So when I came home, I got twoand a half years.
That I have to do in workrelease, you know, uh, I ended

(01:21:22):
up doing six months in workrelease, they let me out.
And they said, you know, we'regoing to put the rest of that.
So two years, we're going to puttwo years on top of your
probation.
So I already got 10 yearsprobation.
So you put that other two onthere.
That's 12 years, right?
That's excessive.

(01:21:42):
So, yeah, yeah, so I was like, Iain't trippin and I wasn't
trippin for the simple factthat, ah, man, shoot, I'm walkin
now, yeah, I ain't, listen, alot of this stuff that you got
on paper, oh, I'm cool, I ain'tdoin none of that anyway, so,
you know, this right here is notgon limit me,

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
you know what I'm sayin I see what you're sayin I
see what you're sayin

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this, yeah, this ain't gon limit
me, man.
You left out

Speaker 2 (01:22:10):
in the old life.

Speaker 3 (01:22:11):
Show you right?

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
Yeah.
Show you.
Right.

Speaker (01:22:13):
Got

Speaker 3 (01:22:14):
so I'm like this is a cakewalk.
Them 12 years, y'all got, Iain't tripping.
And I can do it, man.
I did it one year of probation.
They threw the other years out.

Speaker 2 (01:22:24):
Wow.
Man, look at I man.
You're walking testimonybrother.
Listen man, you man testimonyman.
Mm.
Good lord bro.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
I mean man, how God showed up, man.
I did one year probation man.
And like I tell brothers, I'llbe like, man, listen, man, I'm
telling you, man, God is exactlywho he said he is, man.
And he loves making history.
He loves doing things whenpeople put their sign, they name
and draw their conclusion to saywhat, man, he specializes in the

(01:23:01):
impossible, man.
I've never heard.
And, and everybody said this,man, I ain't never heard him do
that.
Now I heard him.
If you do like 10 years, thenthey throw one year out, you
know, or two years out.
Cause you didn't did majority ata time.
They like you good, man.

(01:23:21):
You did one year and they threwall that out.
I said, absolutely, man.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
Well, what were you doing?
What, what was it that you weredoing during that year?
Cause.
I'm sure that they looked atsomething that you were doing
and said, Hey, you know, like,what was it that you think, what
do you feel it was that, thatmade them throw that out?
Like during that year, what wereyou, um, what did you have going
on at that year?

Speaker 3 (01:23:42):
Because I made up in my mind, man, that, you know,
ministry wise, man, I had aheart for young people, man.
Uh, because as we go back to mylife, when I started having kids
at 15, my first child at 15, mysecond child at 16.
By the time I was a senior inhigh school, I had three and
just having no clue, man.

(01:24:03):
So I had a heart for youngpeople, man.
And, uh, and so when I camehome, I started a a basketball
camp.
Free basketball camp becausepeople knew me a basketball to
where I wanted to deal withyoung people, man, and just
share the love of God with him,man.
And, and I would mentoryoungsters, you know, uh, I

(01:24:25):
stayed in the neighborhoodwhere, you know, a lot of crime
was going on a lot of.
Young people was around.
And so I stayed right there inthe middle, man.
Cause when I came home, I'mmarried.
That's what my wife stayed.
She had a house, bought a housethere.
And so, uh, man, I was justconnected with a lot of young

(01:24:46):
people.
So I was always engaged inmentoring young people, man.
So they seen some of thesethings that I was doing.
I would go to the juveniles andI would do mentoring In the
juvenile system here inAnderson, man.
And so they was just like, man,this dude consistent, man, he's
doing.
And I also worked for, uh, thisministry called man for man

(01:25:10):
ministries.
And it was a ministry for me.
And that was incarcerated cominghome, helping them get
acclimated, re acclimated withsociety, with their families.

Speaker 4 (01:25:20):
Was that an Anderson as well?

Speaker 3 (01:25:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was, that was in Anderson,man.
Um, and so I was a part of it.
I was sentenced.
I had to go to man for man.
And then when I got there, man,it was, it was so awesome, man.
That was a vehicle that God wasusing to help build me as well,
man.
And, uh, so then I startedworking for him.
You know, so I was firstly aclient or participant, then I

(01:25:46):
got a job from a man and fromthere, man, you know, I started
working at the juvenile and nextthing you know, now I'm working
in the school system, you know,and I still got this record
though.
Wow.
So, yeah, so I'm getting a job.

Speaker 2 (01:26:02):
It's like, you know, like that they that the school
system hires you.
And you're feeling like thatsays a lot right there.
What's the name of some of theministries and some of the
groups like?
What are some of the groups inthe ministries that you're
working with that you're part ofand what do you, what do you got
going on there?

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
Well, that was man for man ministries, man.
And then like I said, man, butthat was for me, you know, I got
a heart for me and to, but myheart is for young people, man.
Uh, man, I love young people,man.
And so I was connected.
I went to the juvenile because,you know, I'm just being led by
God in the school system, man,I, in the school system, I'm

(01:26:42):
making 35 an hour as a lifecoach, you know, and, and when I
first got out of prison, I wastold that there was a guy that
was there at HR and, and Iwanted to get into the schools
to really work with some of theyoung, some parents.
You know, some of the youngindividuals that was getting in
trouble, the delinquents, youknow, gun violence, fighting,

(01:27:05):
doing all that.
And, I had a HR tell me, uh,listen, man, as long as I'm in
this position, you would neverbe in the school system.
Oh, he told me that's in myface.

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):
You know, God removes, God removes them
thorns.

Speaker 3 (01:27:19):
I

Speaker 2 (01:27:21):
already know I have, I literally have situations like
that happening in my life atthis very moment.
And I, I watched God removeobstacles on a regular base.
Nothing stops the Lord's plan.
Nothing, nothing, nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:27:39):
Yeah, bro.
Yeah, for real, man.
Next thing you know, some yearslater, man, I'm in the school
system.
Making 35 an hour, man.
Um, I'm getting paid off of myhistory.
You hear me?
I'm getting paid off of where Ibe, you know, because I have a

(01:28:00):
rapport with the young people.
They listened to me.
I mean, man, it was like, man,the favorite that God gave me
with young people, man, it was,it was bananas.
And so as I'm building this andI'm in the school system, man,
and, and God is preparing me,man.
And I went through a season,man.

(01:28:20):
My grandson, man, he had, hehad, uh, he was born with a bad
heart, man.
Uh, his valves to his heart wassmall, man.
And so he was having thesesurgeries, man, 30, 40
surgeries.
But before he was one, he hadopen heart surgery, man.
Um, and they was telling me,yeah, man, they was telling me

(01:28:43):
that by the time he's 10, he'sgoing to need a new heart.
So I'm believing God will healthat.
You know, I'm like, hespecializes in, in the heart,
you know, heart department, youknow what I'm saying?
So I'm believing God, man.
And, uh, man, darkest time in mylife, man, my grandson ended up
passing away, man, at the age offour.

(01:29:06):
And, uh, And routine surgery,man.
Yeah, man.
And he passed away, man.
I was angry with God.
I ain't want to talk to nobody,man.
I was so wounded.
I couldn't even help my son,whose son it was, you know, my
family looking to me as, asanswers, man, dad, we're going

(01:29:28):
to be all right.
Is everything going to be okay?
They looking at me as the onethat's going to be like, man,
we're going to bless the Lord,man.
Listen, man, God, we good.
And man, I ain't had none ofthat for nobody,

Speaker 5 (01:29:38):
man.

Speaker 3 (01:29:40):
And, uh, I didn't tell a lot of people cause I
ain't want a lot of peopletrying to scripture me to death.
I knew the scripts, you knowwhat I'm saying?
I just didn't understand howthis was working in God's plan,
man.
I didn't.
And so I was angry with him,man.
And, uh, man, it was, I'mtelling you, man, it was the
most liberating time of my life.

(01:30:03):
Most liberating time of my life,man, was when I was angry with
God because for the simple factThat when Jesus said, they that
worship me must worship me inspirit and in truth.
Listen to me, man.
He, he meant that, that trueparts where I didn't have to try
to fix it up.
I didn't tell a lot of peoplebecause I didn't want them to

(01:30:26):
try to protect God as if hecouldn't handle my truth.
I was angry with him.
And man, it was at that time,man, when I got my breakthrough
man, when God was able to reallyman minister to me, man, in such
a powerful way, man, to where Istarted, I started on my road to
healing man after losing mygrandson.

(01:30:47):
So me and my grandson would playNerf basketball in my house.
You know, when he would shoot,he score, I'd be like money.
And so then when it was time forme to score, he'd be like money.
And so, you know, um, I had abrother, man, that was like,
Hey, when you come to thisprayer meeting that we have, I

(01:31:08):
was like, man, I don't, I reallydon't even feel like it, man.
And, uh, he was like, man, canwe please?
Cause I just want you to be inthat environment, you know?
So I, I went, uh, it was about30 minutes away.
I went and, uh, from my home andI drove and then I got there.
And so it's, it's Christianbusiness, man.

(01:31:29):
Uh, the chaplain for theIndianapolis Colts was there,
you know, big business man.
Yeah, man.
And so they was there and theywas going around talking about,
you know, amen.
Uh, so it was all about what canwe pray for you about, you know,
um, what individuals wantedprayer for, you know?

(01:31:51):
And so individually.
It was like, man, can y'all prayfor me on this right here for
this and for that.
So when they got to me, I waslike, listen, man, I can't pray
for y'all because I can't evenpray for myself.
And man, they stopped was doingman.
Everybody said everything to theside, put me in the middle of
the floor, man.
And pray for me, man.

(01:32:12):
Laid hands on me, man.
On my way home, man, on my wayhome, God dropped in my spirit.
Money ministries, like what?
Money ministries.

Speaker (01:32:27):
Yes sir.

Speaker 3 (01:32:27):
And so can you see this right here?

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
I do see it.
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:32:31):
Okay.
It is So yeah, so now see this,is that your grandson?
Yes sir.
Yes sir.
Yes sir.
That's my logo, man.
My grandson is my logo And sothis is what's so crazy, he
dropping in my spirit.
On my way home and then money isan acronym and it stands for

(01:32:56):
moving obstacles now for everyyouth.
So the number four is when mygrandson passed away.
So it's moving obstacles now forevery youth.
Yeah, man.
And so he gave me that ministry,man, because one thing about my
grandson, bro, uh, brother Juliois if, if you never seen the six

(01:33:18):
inch incision, Or if I nevertold you his story, you would
never know he was sick becausehe didn't look like what he'd
been through.
And so God had told me, he waslike, listen, if you can create
an environment, if you cancreate an environment to where I
am exalted, You can allow, youcan help young people outlive

(01:33:43):
they condition.
So our job is to go in, man,whatever obstacle and individual
youngsters facing, because, youknow, I mean, even people, we do
whatever we're going through,that becomes our filter.
To where we start lookingthrough, we start looking at
life through this filter throughwhatever it is we're going

(01:34:04):
through our relationships isbased off of this obstacle
that's in front of us.
Anything that we're goingthrough, uh, is going through
this filter.
And so God is saying, listen, Ineed for you to go in and move
the obstacle out the way.
So they can see a bigger pictureof what I'm trying to do in a

(01:34:25):
life and of who they are, man.
And so that's what I do now,man.
I left my job making 35 an hour,man, to do this full time, you
know, for the glory of God, man.
So I'm just out, man.
Listen,

Speaker 2 (01:34:41):
you know, you stepped out in faith, you're obedient,
you're listening to the word andyou know, blessings behind that.

Speaker 3 (01:34:50):
And it made zero sense because now me and my
wife, my wife, and I'm saying,she like, well, okay, how are we
going to pay this mortgagethough?

Speaker 4 (01:34:58):

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):
And so a lot of that is coming up and I'm like, man,
God, I don't.
So I'm kind of hesitant.
Then my wife came to me, but I'mready to leave at any time.
But I'm like, how do I leave?
And my wife is like, listen, howare we going to do this and
that?
And so I'm praying.
And my wife finally came to meand she said, Hey, listen, I see

(01:35:24):
what God is doing.
You can leave whenever you,whenever, if he told you to
leave, leave your job.
And I left, man.
And he'd been providing, he'dbeen providing, listen, man, I
don't have a job.
I ain't getting paid, you know,but what God is doing, man, he's
laying the foundation, you know,he's laying the foundation, man.

(01:35:46):
And so he'd been faithful.
He'd been faithful.
So that's, excuse me.
So that's what I do, man.
Full time, man.
Is uh, man, just doing thisministry, man, money ministries,
man, whatever God telling me todo, man, I'm doing it, man.

Speaker 2 (01:36:02):
Somebody, you know, um, how can people reach out?
How can we find you on socialmedia?
Maybe, you know, people want todonate or just look up what
you're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:36:12):
How could they find you, man?
They can find me.
Listen to me.
Facebook.
I got Facebook, Instagram.
There's a money ministries page.
Um, you can also go to mywebsite that's still being
constructed, but it's moneyministries.
com.
Uh, yeah, man, you can go onthere.
You can donate on through therethrough the website, man.

(01:36:35):
I got cash app Venmo, PayPalmoney ministries, man.
You can look those up.
Also, man, email moneyministries, 18 at gmail.
com.
Yeah, man, this is what I'vebeen listening, and I'm just
sold out, man, for the purposeand glory, glory of God, man.
So yeah, man, anything you wantto find out about me, man, you

(01:36:58):
can go, or you can just go andlook, look for Kojak Fuller, you
know, look me up Kojak Fuller,man, and you can find
information.

Speaker 2 (01:37:06):
Definitely leave some links down in the comments.
So people could just, you know,hit a link and, you know, go
straight to your page and, wherethey can leave donations, where
they can support you, where theycan get support if they need
support.
And we'll definitely, um, we'llbe doing that.

Speaker 3 (01:37:22):
That'll work, man.
Appreciate that, man.

Speaker 2 (01:37:24):
Man.
Um, thanks.
Uh, thanks for coming on andsharing with us, man.
Um, man, we really appreciateit.
Kojak, like The story that yousaid, like, you know, it's so
inspiring, you know, to see Godwork, you know, it's like when
your wife came to you and said,it's time, quit your job.
It's like confirmation, youknow, women, our wives, they,
they have this discernment, youknow what I mean?

(01:37:45):
And we move through them.
We move as one, and she just,she just knew it was time
already, you know, and.
It's, it's nothing butblessings, when you are both on
the same page spiritually, bothGod, both stepping out in faith,
like you said, like, how are wegoing to pay this mortgage?
I'm sure she was wondering thattoo, but it didn't stop her from

(01:38:05):
saying, we're going to do, we'regoing to be obedient in the
Lord.
We're going to step up, we'regoing to do what he tells us to
do.
So my God bless her to my Godbless her for that.

Speaker 3 (01:38:15):
Listen, man, I'm thankful for my wife, man.
I'm thankful for her, man.
I am, man, because that justallowed me to challenge.
I mean, that challenged me, uh,in my relationship with God on a
whole nother level, you know,uh, to where now I got to be
more open to what God is saying,because now it's really evident

(01:38:39):
that my wife saying, okay, I'm,I'm, I'm rolling with you.
I'm going with you, but, butwhere we going though?
Right?
What we doing?
You know, you know, a a asHabakkuk would say, write the
vision and make it plain.
You know, she's saying, well,okay, let me see the vision and,
and make it plain to me so I cango ahead and just, I'm gonna

(01:38:59):
jump out with you, man.
So, man, super thankful man formy wife, man, and just the
growth.
We're about to celebrate 22years of marriage.
Man, man.

Speaker 2 (01:39:09):
Amen.

Speaker 3 (01:39:11):
Yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
Amen.

Speaker 3 (01:39:13):
Yeah, man.
So, hey man, I appreciate youman.
We appreciate you coming.
I appreciate y man, roam the

Speaker 2 (01:39:20):
strong man.
You got any, uh, final words andmaybe you want to close us out
with a prayer?

Speaker 3 (01:39:25):
Alright, man, I'll definitely close out with a
prayer man.
And, you know, uh, man, I alwayssay this, man.
This is my motto, man.
My today is not my future, man.
And my mistakes don't define mypurpose, you know, uh, yeah,
man, I honestly believe that manto where, um, whatever you're
going through, you know, it'snot your destination.

(01:39:48):
This is not the end man.
And, and I'll leave you withthis man one thing about exits
when you're on the highway.
Um, you know, as many exits,man, exits are good, man,
because it lets us know thatwe're going somewhere, every
exit leads you somewhere, youknow, uh, but I would really

(01:40:09):
encourage individuals to tapinto God because even though
every exit is good, that don'tmean that it's the right exit.
You know, so you want to makesure that you getting off on the
right exit, man.
What exit is God calling you toget off on, um, to where it's
connected to your destination.
So the right exit is alwaysconnected to where God is taking

(01:40:32):
you to man.
And so, man, I just encourageindividuals to tap into who he
is so we can start getting offon the right X may not be the
popular exit.
But it's the right exit whereGod would have you to be, man.
So I just want to say to you,uh, brother Julio, man, thank
you, brother.
I appreciate your time, man.
Uh, I appreciate what you andbrother Omar's doing with wrong

(01:40:56):
to strong, man.
Keep man, allowing God to be Godin your lives, man.
Uh, because man, this ain't it,man.
This ain't.
Listen, man, what he's done,man, is just scratching the
surface, man.
Really, man, God is, he's allabout territory, enlarging
territory.
Cause see, that's what kingdomsdo.
They take over territory.

(01:41:18):
And so God is preparing us toeven enlarge the territory, man,
to take over more territory forhim.
So, man, I just want toencourage you brothers, man.
Man, keep on, man.
Keep on keeping on in the Lord,man.
Cause I'm telling you, bro, itain't over with.
You just scratching the surface,man.
So I appreciate y'all brothers,

Speaker 2 (01:41:38):
man.
Thank you.
You know what I would like tosay?
Cause I know that, you know, youhave a lot of young followers
and I feel like, a lot of the,the guys that you meant to, I
feel like they're going to,they're going to be on here.
I feel like they're going tocome.
They're going to, they're goingto want to see your story, you
know, and I just would like toencourage them all to say and
say to all of them, God will,he'll meet you where you're at.
You don't have to.
You don't have to get right andcome to God.

(01:41:59):
You don't, you don't get cleanto take a shower, so just, just
come to God.
Just trust him.
That's right.
He'll where you're at.
You don't have to quit doinganything.
You just come.
You just come to him.
You just tell him I'm ready.
He'll come to you.
He'll clean you up.
He'll do the rest You.
Your job is only to say, I'mready.

(01:42:23):
I'm ready to accept your gift.
It's done.
It's

Speaker 5 (01:42:26):
basic.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:42:27):
You don't have to do anything else.
So you know, I really, I urgeyou, you know any young guys
that are out there watchingright now to just know that the
Lord will meet you where you'reat.
He doesn't call the qualified,he qualifies to call.
So just come on

Speaker 3 (01:42:40):
now.
You

Speaker 2 (01:42:41):
know, just pump the down.
Tell him you're ready.
Yes sir.
And let him do his thing.
He's the sweetest planner.
Your plans, you know, Godliterally laughs at our plan.
We have the best ideas and wethink that we have, you know, we
have the biggest plans in theworld and they're so small when
we see what, what God's plansare, when we put our lives in

(01:43:04):
his hands and we let him do whathe needs to do and what he does.
And we look back at our plansand see where he takes us, man,
his plan is always so muchbetter.
So you're right.
Yes.
Just, just trust God, come tohim, come to him and let him do
what he does.
Amen.

(01:43:25):
And, and, and, and just beamazed as you could see, you
know, from our brother ourbrother Kojack, like he miracle
after miracle after miracle.
You know, like one afteranother.
So, would, would you wanna, um,take us out in prayer, brother,

Speaker 3 (01:43:40):
man?
Absolutely, man.
Absolutely.
Father God, we just thank youand bless you, God, for who you
are.
Lord, we just thank you forbeing so amazing.
God, we just thank you, Lord,that who you are is not, uh,
predicated on our performance.
God, we thank you that youchange.
Not God.
We thank you, Lord, that youstill called us.

(01:44:02):
You knew us from the foundationsof the world.
Father God, you knew.
All the mess, father, God, youknew what we was going to be,
what was, what we was going todo, all of the things, father,
God, that we was going to bemixed up in God, but you still
chose us God.
And so, Lord, we thank youfather God for choosing us.
We thank you, Lord, that youchose us and you brought us into

(01:44:24):
your family, God.
And, uh, you, you took usexactly how we were to love us
enough not to leave us the wayyou found us.
And so, God, we thank you and webless you for that.
Lord, I want to speak.
Uh, a blessing father God over awrong to strong father God in
the name of Jesus.
God, I ask that you continue touse this vehicle, uh, uh, to, to

(01:44:48):
definitely touch areas, Lord,uh, to connect, uh, individuals,
father God, to your glory, Lord,uh, to who you are, to your
love, to your forgiveness, keepusing, uh, brother Omar, brother
Julio, father God, uh, for yourglory, God, keep allowing them
to touch.
Every individual that you, thatyou, uh, put in their pathway,

(01:45:09):
God, we know that the steps ofthe righteous man are ordered by
the Lord.
And so God let them understandfather God, that even though it
may not look right, God, thatyou are the order of their
steps, father God, that youstill direct in them God.
And so Lord, we know God that,uh, all things work together for
the good of them.

(01:45:30):
And love you and are calledaccording to your purpose.
So God, we just love you.
We just bless you.
We just thank you father, God,that you'd be so faithful and
it's not about us, God, but it'sabout you being faithful to your
word.
And so, Lord, I just thank you,God.
I just ask and pray that youcontinue to bless us, continue
to change us, God, that we maybe a help to those that don't

(01:45:51):
know you and not a hindrance.
God.
And so Lord, we forever blessyou forever.
Thank you.
Bless, uh, my brother Julio andhis family.
God allow him to be everythingthat, uh, you've called him to
be God.
And I just pray Lord, uh, hedgeof protection over his family,
Lord.
And I pray favor over hisfamily, God, that they will be

(01:46:11):
instruments of the gospel Lordand the love of God.
And Lord, we just love you.
And we thank you father God, inJesus name.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Thank you for that, man.
Appreciate you, man.
I'll put my, uh, my website inthe chat, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:46:28):
Okay, good, good.
Yeah, we'll definitely, we'llput it up.
Um, thank you for joining us foranother episode of Wrong to
Strong Chicago.
Uh, Matthew 416 reads, Thepeople who sat in darkness have
seen a great light, and uponthose who sat in the region in
the shadow of death.
Light has dawned.
My name is Julio Ricardo, myguest here, Maurice Kojak

(01:46:52):
Fuller, and we are Wrong toStrong.

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