December 19, 2024 • 32 mins
When does helping a loved one become enabling, and how do we strike the right balance? Shay Cook and Vanessa McNelley dive into this profound question as they share personal experiences and insights from their journey as financial counselors. Through the lens of scripture, such as Matthew 7:6, they explore the fine line between financial generosity that reflects love and the risk of fostering dependency. Vanessa shares a story about her brother, illustrating the delicate dynamics that play out in family relationships and the importance of setting boundaries while maintaining faith.
Breaking generational stigmas around self-care, especially within immigrant families, is critical in their discussion. They tackle cultural and gender norms that often pressure individuals to prioritize others’ needs over their own, sometimes to their detriment. By advocating for open communication within families, they aim to shift perceptions surrounding money management and self-care. Highlighting the sacrifices many make, especially women, they emphasize that personal well-being is crucial not only for oneself but for the benefit of everyone around them. Through this dialogue, they call for a cultural shift towards embracing personal growth and financial understanding.
They also confront the complexities of saying no and the role of accountability. Drawing from personal anecdotes and cultural examples, they highlight how constantly saying yes can create cycles of dependency. This episode underscores the necessity of financial literacy and responsible behavior. By promoting education on budgeting and financial planning, they empower their listeners to foster self-sufficiency and build a sustainable financial future. If you’re ready to transform your approach to helping others and learn how financial literacy can lead to healthier relationships, then this conversation is a must-listen.
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Our podcast is proudly sponsored by Crusaders for Change, LLC (C4C) and hosted by our CEO and Founder, Mrs. Shay Cook. At C4C, we provide customized corporate financial wellness programs for businesses, government agencies, and nonprofit organizations. Our services are tailored to create happier, healthier, and more productive work environments. We also empower individuals and couples to overcome debt, improve their credit, boost savings, and more. Ready to learn more about how C4C can impact your life? Contact us today at https://www.crusaders4change.org/!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shay (00:03):
Ever felt those awkward vibes when religion and money
come up?
You're not alone.
Welcome to Yahweh's Money, thepodcast where we tackle the
crossroads of faith and finance.
I'm Shay Cook, an AccreditedFinancial Counselor, and the CEO
and founder of Crusaders forChange LLC.
Vanessa (00:19):
And I'm Vanessa McNelley, Accredited Financial
Counselor and COO of Crusadersfor Change.
Join us on our journey as wediscuss topics like tithing,
saving, and conquering debtthrough religious perspectives.
Let's get started.
Shay (00:35):
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Yahweh's
Money.
Hey, Vanessa, how are you today?
I am good.
How are you, Shay?
I'm good.
I'm excited to talk abouthelping or enabling.
I think we talk about this alot in many conversations you
and I have had over the years,but in family it can get deep
and crazy sometimes because weall do it.
Vanessa (00:55):
Right, and I think you and I have a lot of experience
in this realm too.
Shay (01:00):
Well y'all, in this episode titled Helping and
Enabling, which is which we'redelving into a tricky question
when does helping someone turninto enabling?
We'll explore how our financialgenerosity and support can
reflect God's love, but alsowhen it might cross a line into
fostering dependency or evenenabling poor choices.
(01:22):
Through scripture, personalinsight and practical advice
will help you discern how togive wisely and responsibly,
while honoring your ownboundaries and faith.
So let's figure out how to helpothers without hurting them or
ourselves in this process.
So here's a stark reminder fromMatthew 7, 6.
(01:44):
Do not give dogs what is sacred.
Do not throw your pearls topigs.
If you do, they may tramplethem under their feet and turn
and tear you to pieces.
Oh, my goodness.
This verse encourages us to useour best judgment about when
and how to give.
Wow, that's a lot.
Vanessa (02:08):
Yeah, and that's a great visual too, honestly.
Shay (02:09):
Because it really matters.
Vanessa (02:11):
You know who we give what to because they see it as
something great or something notso.
I think that's a really goodreminder from the beginning.
Yeah, but first, what's thedifference?
What's the difference inhelping and enabling
(02:41):
no-transcript example of someonewho's enabling somebody else?
And I think we go through thisa lot with our own families and
then a lot with our clients.
Shay (02:55):
We do we do and I know I've.
I'm guilty of enabling a lot,and you know when you're coming.
When I was coming up and I wasyounger, I enabled a lot because
I didn't know any better.
I didn't know the difference.
I don't even think I knew whatenabling meant.
I think I learned that intherapy or something like you're
enabling, or my husband mayhave said it, but then you start
to realize like yeah, I'mreally not helping these people.
(03:18):
They are, we are, like it says,continuing.
They are continuing harmfulbehaviors.
We are too.
If we're constantly helpingsomebody or enabling somebody
and not helping them with thegoal to empower them, that's, it
can be really tricky, as westated already.
Vanessa (03:33):
It really is.
And if you think about thatverse again and you think about
something that we've worked so,so hard for, and if we're giving
it to somebody, as you know, asas helping and just a temporary
gift, you know they might seeit the same way we do.
But if it's something thatthey're getting all the time,
you know they're going to see itas nothing and it's just
another handout, some more money.
Oh, it's nothing to this person.
(03:55):
But the reality of it is it canbe something that's really
special or sacred to us thatwe're giving up.
Shay (04:01):
That is so true.
And that could be anythingright Time, money and just yeah,
plenty of stories.
I would love to hear a storybefore we move on and you
enabling somebody there's somany stories.
Vanessa (04:14):
We all know the good story about a Jeep that I
purchased for oh my God, wasthat really?
Enabling.
I don't know if that wasenabling or not but, I think
I've.
I've gone above and beyondquite a few times in my life and
not known where to kind of stopand set those boundaries.
I think that's been one of mybig problems is the boundaries.
Shay (04:32):
Yeah.
Vanessa (04:33):
But I know, growing up I have a brother that I don't
really talk about a lot and youknow we grew up in the same
household, we have the sameparents, but my entire life it
was poor little brother's nameand that's how he was referred
to.
(04:55):
So it was Vanessa and poorlittle brother which I think
really led to this enabling of,you know, my parents and my
grandparents and everyone aroundhim, because it automatically
put this picture in your headthat there was something sad or
he needed extra or needed more.
And you know, to this day it'sbeen a situation where it's been
an enablement, versus beingable to just help and let go,
(05:16):
and it's turned into somethingthat's been expected his entire
life.
So that's been something thatI've dealt with on the outside,
kind of watching, but it's yeah,yeah.
But when you can add thosewords in you know, poor little
so-and-so, or bless their heart,or those words that we say, I
think it automatically puts apicture in our head of, oh, they
need something and oh, it's nottheir fault and oh, they're
(05:39):
going to do better next time.
Shay (05:41):
And that's not always the case that is so true, and
especially you and I being theoldest, that plays a lot into it
too.
We just come into this world asoldest, older children, having
this responsibility, and thenyou're there to take care and
support your young siblings.
And then, as you get older andyou maybe you start working
first, making more money first.
Whatever situation may be,you've always been in that
(06:02):
caretaker, parental role andthat carries on until adulthood
and then they continue to use it.
It's like hold up, I'm not yourparent, you got other parents,
but you also need to learn fromthis because you are growing up
and becoming an adult.
And that's where I say it'sdefinitely been a boundaries
problem for me.
I didn't know.
I've always been that secondmama to my sister and brother.
(06:22):
And then, even when yourparents start asking you for
money which I've gone throughthat too it's like wow.
You know, everybody thinks Shayis responsible, and I know I
shared this before.
I had to close down the bank ofShay, like over a decade ago,
because it was constantly peopleasking me for money, not even
family, some even friends justoh, I'm in a bad position, Can
you help me pay my electric, Canyou help me pay this?
(06:43):
And it's like okay, after awhile that you have to take
responsibility, so it's not myresponsibility to take care of
you Exactly and it turns intosomething that is not just a
one-off.
Vanessa (06:55):
It turns into an expectation.
Shay (06:56):
Yes.
Vanessa (06:57):
And I really think that's where that enabling comes
into play is when it's anexpectation.
It's like, oh well, I'm stillgoing to buy these shoes because
so-and-so will help me with mypower bill.
And it's finding that personthat will feel sorry for us or
help us because they have extra,and we're like, oh, it's okay,
they've got it, it's not a bigdeal to them.
(07:18):
When the reality of it is, itis a big deal and it should be a
big deal.
And it's one of thosesituations where you're not able
to to grow up and be able tohandle your own situation.
And I always say you know, Ithink we have a lot of clients
that do this with their kids andit's like what's going to
happen one day when you're notthere?
Yeah, what is going to happen?
(07:39):
Because you've not taught themhow to provide and take care of
themselves, and when you're notthere, all of a sudden, there's
going to be no backup plan.
Shay (07:48):
Exactly that's what my husband says to my daughter all
the time.
We need to prepare our daughterfor when we're not here, you
know.
And so, yeah, she might be ableto fall back on us now, but
even now it's like no, you needto figure it out.
You're of age, you're finallyyou're working, you know and all
that, and eventually you'regoing to have to move out and
take care of yourself.
But if dad and I pass away, youknow, and when we, you know,
(08:10):
you'll be able to take care ofyourself.
Vanessa (08:11):
Exactly, and that is such a gift you can give your
kids.
It is a huge gift.
And you know, I still thinkthere's so much stigma around
financial struggles, so muchstigma and culturally too, it
discourages us from actuallyhaving those conversations and
talking about those strugglesand that can lead to repeatedly
asking for private help.
(08:32):
We know the person we can go to.
We don't have to say anythingto anybody else.
Nobody else has to know.
But we don't talk about thesethings, and if we would talk
about them we'd realize otherpeople are having the same
struggles.
Shay (08:45):
Everybody's having some kind of struggle, yeah.
And we can learn from eachother.
Vanessa (08:50):
We really can.
Shay (08:51):
This is when I this point is so amazing because, even
though my mom, I'm going to putmy parents on blast, but as I
always do in these episodes, youknow there are certain people
in my family that can't keep,can't hold water, as they would
say back in the day.
So they, you tell themsomething about and they're like
you know, someone stole thatand asked me for money, this and
that you know.
So it was never really private,which is sad, uh, on that part.
(09:13):
But on the other end, you'relike no, we should all be
talking about this.
We should sit down and say,okay, what is the problem?
How do you?
Do you need to learn how tomanage money?
Do you need need to be bad withcredit, whatever, savings,
whatever?
We need to be having theseconversations and I don't know
why we have the stigma.
I do know why we're not goingto talk about it on here, but
there's some systemic orsystematic issues around that.
(09:36):
But still, yeah, it could be alot, and stigma is real in a lot
of different areas, not onlymoney, but that's why people are
committing suicide.
They lose hope, I mean, thelist goes on.
Vanessa (09:54):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And if we would have theseconversations, you know, we
might have some moreaccountability there too,
because everybody kind of knowsand it's like well, you know, I
don't want them judging me, butI could use a little extra nudge
sometimes, like well, shouldyou be going out to eat?
Or you know those type ofthings and we can be
accountability for each other.
And having somebody to walkthrough that with is amazing,
even if they don't have to.
If somebody chooses to walkthrough that with you and do
(10:18):
things the way, you're having todo them.
You know, I got a milliondollars.
I bought a house, a car.
Shay (10:32):
What about all the stuff you had to do to get up to all
of the hard work?
I know when Nate and I boughtour first house, our family was
like, oh my God, how can theyafford this?
Or why did they do this, youknow, and not even how can we
afford the house.
But all the stuff that we didafterwards and it's like we hard
for this we saved.
(10:52):
You know that, and I hatedhaving to state that over and
over because it's like oh, itwas just handed to us.
No, it wasn't like.
Vanessa (10:56):
I worked for this, yeah , and people don't see that.
They don't see those.
You know those things, justlike you were saying, and they
don't see that.
You know you stayed at home sixnights that week and they don't
see that.
You know you clip coupons andyou did all these things behind
the scenes.
You know that's nobody'sbusiness.
Honestly.
Shay (11:11):
Yeah, but it's a sacrifice and discipline and self-control
that you have to have in orderto achieve these great things.
Exactly.
Vanessa (11:17):
And everything that you have to work for it's going to
require some kind of sacrifice.
Shay (11:21):
Yep Some kind of sacrifice yeah.
Vanessa (11:23):
And then, you know, also helping in a lot of times
is, you know, it's a, it's acultural norm for a lot of
people and it may be your dutyrather than a choice.
And this happens in a lot ofcultures, but especially in
Latin American cultures, inAsian and South Asian cultures
(11:44):
those are the biggest culturesthat have this as part of it.
But I think to an extent, a lotof, a lot more cultures have
this, where it's expected thatyou give and sometimes you're
expected to take everyone else'sneeds into account before your
own.
And I think we see that a lotof times when we have immigrants
who come to the U?
S and the family automaticallythinks, ooh, they're going to be
(12:07):
rich, you know, they got allthis money coming in, but they
forget and they don't understandhow much it costs to live here.
I mean gosh.
I had a client one time.
Um, he was from Kenya and hecame over with his wife and his
two children um militarypersonnel and he would not eat
dinner at night, so he hadenough money to send home to his
(12:30):
family, and that is a sacrificeto not be able to feed yourself
, so you can send money back toyour family so they can have
nice things.
And it wasn't even just to feedhis family, it was so they could
have nice things.
And the family never saw thatsacrifice and they just thought,
oh, he can afford it, he canafford that.
But the reality of it is is,sometimes people are put in
(12:52):
those positions where there's nochoice, it's just an
expectation.
Shay (12:56):
And I would add, not only a cultural norm, but also a I
guess maybe a sexist or sexgender norm is females.
Women, we put a lot of things,we are taught like you come
second, third, fourth.
You take care of your family,your community, everything else.
Then you take care of yourself.
So I know, even having my child, I remember my grandmother like
(13:20):
why are you going to get yourhair done?
Why are you going to buy noclothes and stuff?
Like I was wearing old stuffand doing it because it was all
about taking care of my child atthe time.
Like it took me two to threeyears to understand.
Like it ain't just about her,like you need to take care of
yourself too.
But that's what I saw my motherdo, other mothers do.
They put themselves last in alot of situations, not only in
(13:41):
motherhood, but in partnershipsand jobs and things.
List goes on.
And so, yeah, it's a gendernorm as well.
Vanessa (13:48):
Yeah, and it's really harmful when you come into that
place where you realize whatyou've been doing and you kind
of wake up and it's like, well,wait a minute, it's okay to take
care of me, it's okay to feellike I'm important because if
you take care of yourself, youare a better version of yourself
for everyone else, and weforget that.
We really forget that and Ifind myself kind of falling back
(14:09):
in those roles often.
You really forget that and Ifind myself kind of falling back
in those roles often, often,because it's a hard cycle to
break.
Shay (14:14):
It is really hard If you've been doing it all your
life.
It's so hard.
But it feels so good to haveself-care and take care of
yourself.
But then I feel guilty, exactly, exactly, because I'm like, why
am I taking care of Shay?
I got to do this, I got to dothat, like my brain goes crazy
because I'm so used to it.
So we need to get out of thatstigma.
That it's not.
You know, self-care shouldn'tbe stigmatized.
I mean it should be.
(14:34):
It's healthy to have self-care,it's okay to be selfish every
once in a while and it's okay tobuy things for yourself.
Yes, exactly.
Vanessa (14:42):
And it's okay to have nice things.
And it's okay to you know, toprioritize your own family
versus your extended family andall these other things, and it's
okay to say no to people.
Shay (14:52):
And we forget that too.
No is a complete sentence.
I had to tell one of ourclients recently no is a
complete sentence, you don'thave to explain it.
No reasons, no excuses, Justlike no, thank you, I'm good.
And what about all theemotional factors?
I think we're kind of alreadytalking about it but, like the
obligation that it comes with,givers feel compelled to help,
(15:12):
especially when the recipient isa loved one.
I know I've struggled with thatbecause when I see a loved one,
whether it's my immediate, myfamily, my family, origin,
extended I don't like to seepeople struggle, you know.
But I know my husband,especially when it comes to our
daughter, he's like she needs tostruggle, she needs to learn
that.
You know, sometimes lifedoesn't work out.
(15:33):
A lot of times it doesn't workout the way you want to.
So I have to.
It's hard for us givers notwanting, and we feel it, we feel
an obligation.
Vanessa (15:41):
We do and you know, with that too, when we have, you
know, young people struggling,that is the time you're supposed
to struggle when you're young.
So you know you, you can pickyourself back up, you can work
harder, you can have two jobs,you can do all that extra stuff,
you can have roommates, so youdon't have to do it later in
(16:01):
life.
If you struggle early, it isgoing to take you to that place
where, when things happen laterin life, you've got it because
you've been there before.
You know, and I know, I've hadthat in my own life, when I went
through my divorce from myex-husband, who was military.
I, you know, I tell people thisall the time.
Shay (16:19):
There's always that that period of time that's going to
be dark.
Vanessa (16:20):
But if I had not struggled earlier on in my life,
I would not have been okayliving in this teeny tiny
apartment with only an airmattress and having, you know,
15 to $20 for groceries a week.
But I did it and I never askedfor help from anyone and I was
able to do it because I've hadstruggles earlier on and I knew
what to do.
Oh wow.
(16:41):
And it's such a gift to be ableto do that and know what to do
and how to handle the situation,and so many people can't, then
they so many people couldn't dowhat you did because they would
be so embarrassed.
Shay (16:52):
I couldn't put it on the ground, like you know, they
wouldn't be able to have peopleover.
It's like we all been there,where you know you've had the
well, not all of us, but some ofus been there where you, you're
in that apartment with hardlyany furniture.
You can't, like you said, youcan't afford to really feed
yourself.
Like, yeah, I've been there tooand it's hard, and I wouldn't
(17:13):
say I was in that strugglebefore.
But during that struggle andlearning it and experiencing it
and the sacrifice of it all mademe not want to go back to that.
So like, yeah, I ain't doingeating these ramen and Eggo
waffles for the whole weeks onend rest of my life.
I don't want to go back to that.
So so yeah.
(17:34):
And then you know, the fear ofconflict is another one.
Saying no, as we've alreadytalked about, can be
uncomfortable and strainedrelationships.
Me saying no to some of myfamily members has caused silent
treatments, angry reactions.
Totally don't hear from themfor years on end, like it's
gotten crazy because of the no.
But hey, I was afraid to do it,but it was necessary.
Vanessa (17:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I have had this with my sibling
the same thing.
It's one of those situationswhere there are people out there
who are so good at manipulatingcircumstances that they can be
as nice and kind until they hearthe word no, and then they just
change and they want nothing todo with you anymore and you're
(18:17):
a horrible person because yousaid the N word you know, so
it's like no, no is okay to say.
Shay (18:23):
And some people need to hear that word.
They do.
Vanessa (18:26):
There are a lot of people out there who have never
heard no before.
Shay (18:30):
I love that scene in Wicked when Ariana Grande is
told no or she doesn't get herway and she gets so damn
dramatic about it.
But some people I know peoplehave gotten that dramatic
Vanessa about.
They're like oh my God, I can'tbelieve you said no to me.
Oh my God, I didn't get my way.
When she does that scene, I socan relate.
I mean, I really could.
I'm like oh my God, it's sodramatic, but it's.
(18:51):
Some people are just like thatbecause they've gotten their way
all their lives and then whenthey're finally told no, and
that's a, that's they are.
We are enabling and hinderingour children and our family
members by not teaching them noexactly.
Vanessa (19:06):
Exactly.
Shay (19:06):
I mean it started in our generation when they were giving
everybody damn trophies Hello,because they should have been
like no, you're behind to notwin a trophy for eighth place,
like no.
Vanessa (19:18):
Eight out of eight.
That's what I did.
It's the truth.
It's the truth.
It's okay to not win.
We need to know how to takethat defeat.
We need to know how to not getthat the promotion or the raise
or all these things that happenin our lives.
We need to be able to handlethem.
Yes, and you're right, there'sso many people who are our age
(19:38):
and younger that can't, theycan't handle those situations.
Shay (19:42):
They go crazy.
Hearing the word no, they'relike oh my God, the world is
about to end.
She just told me no, I willtell you.
Vanessa (19:49):
So my stepniece just got married.
Shay (19:52):
Last weekend Wow.
Vanessa (19:55):
She married a guy who's in the air force and going to
Germany together.
But she messaged me one day andshe was like can you believe
that my dad's not paying for mydress and he's not paying for
this and he's not paying forthat?
And I was and she was like hemakes the same amount my mom
makes because they're divorced.
Shay (20:11):
And.
Vanessa (20:11):
I was like do you realize your dad's still paying
child support for your sibling?
And he has a house payment andhe has a new spouse and
stepchildren and all thesethings.
And it's like and you're 19 andgot married on a whim.
So it's like there wasn't timeto plan for these things and
it's like you know I was tellingher I was like when, when that
(20:32):
happened for me, I had to payfor all my own things.
It's not an expectation thesedays for most people that their
family's going to handleeverything.
But I was like she's going tohave a real learning curve of
marrying somebody in themilitary.
Shay (20:47):
Yeah, cause you get to say they tell you know a lot.
Her husband's going to becoming home because he's going
to be told know a lot, yeah,yeah, but you know I'm glad
she's learning at 19.
It's not 29 or 59.
Exactly, so that's just part ofthe process, you know.
And then also, desiring to feelneeded, helping others can
provide us with the purposewhich can lead us to helping,
(21:08):
help us making enablingdecisions.
It buys relationships.
Vanessa (21:12):
sometimes, you know, and that's like said, that's
happened in my family, it's likeoh well, if they come by, I get
to see them and we get to spendtime together and I can give
them that money for for whateverthey need.
But it's like is that reallythe kind of relationship you
want?
Shay (21:27):
Exactly.
Yeah, I see that with familymembers in order and only way
they'll get their grandkids tocome over and like I'll buy you
lunch, I'll buy you dinner, it'slike they should just be
wanting to come over, just tocome over, not because you're
buying them their food.
And now they've set thisexpectation.
So when they come over my housethey're like I say, do you have
this?
Like I ain't.
Your grandparents Don't becoming over here only to get
(21:48):
food.
You better come over here andspend some time with me.
So yeah, and if people want tofeel needed and it's sad, I mean
you know that's part of us ashumans, is part of our fabric,
so we just got to realize how todeal with that.
Vanessa (22:00):
Yeah, and there's so many other ways to do it and to
feel needed and be part ofsomething, without doing it over
and over again.
For the same person who who isnot helping themselves?
Shay (22:11):
Or that whole thing.
Oh, they'll change.
Right, Give givers believe theyhelp, will, that their help
will inspire the receiver tochange, but the receiver has to
be held accountable.
There's the A word that we keepusing accountability.
That's lacking all acrosseverything.
Right, yeah.
Vanessa (22:28):
Because if it's always going to be there, why change?
Shay (22:31):
Yeah, exactly.
You don't set the expectationExactly.
Vanessa (22:35):
Yeah, why change?
Because there's no need to.
The change happens because it'snot there anymore.
Shay (22:39):
It's not there anymore and you have to.
Yeah, exactly, crazy.
Vanessa (22:44):
It really, really is, you know, and then sometimes we
see this with this imbalance ofwealth too.
You know, if somebody has morethan others, or there may be
this whole expectation, becauseyou do have more, that you have
to take care of others, or youknow, there's a reliance because
somebody has more.
I think we've both seen this inour families too.
(23:05):
Somebody has more, even thoughthey're not, you know, overly
wealthy or whatever just becausesomebody has something extra.
everybody else wants it orthinks they can afford it, but a
lot of times they don'tunderstand what it takes to get
there.
Shay (23:18):
It's the hard work and sacrifice, self-control and
discipline that they don't haveand they think they're going to
come in my world and use what Igot when I did all of this and
you're going to skip all thosesteps and take advantage of my
blessings, Like no, you bettergo somewhere and go get your own
.
That's real talk right there,Like you know, sometimes you
don't have the money if you'rethe wealthy one.
Vanessa (23:39):
Um, you know, there's.
There's this whole thing.
Like my grandmother used to say,my mom was rich and I'm like,
no mom has like car payments anda house payment and she had a
business and so, because mymother had a business, she was
rich, but the reality was shewas paying 30 employees and you
know there's all these thingspeople don't think about.
They just think, oh, you havethis, so you've got to have
(24:01):
money, and the reality is ismost people don't.
You know, they're livingpaycheck to paycheck just like
everyone else.
But there's that outward viewof they have more and the
reality is, a lot of times theydon't.
Shay (24:13):
They don't.
It's like the military right.
A lot of people to this daystill like well, you're in the
military, so you're rich.
No, just because we're going tothese fancy quote unquote
countries and states and got ahouse and we got food, that's
the least they can do.
So it's not that we're rich,it's just part of the whole
process of being in the militaryLike it's not we're.
(24:33):
Most of the people arestruggling.
They really are, yeah.
Vanessa (24:36):
Yeah, and I think you know, when you look at paychecks
and you look at moves and allthose things too that cost extra
, then you'd be like, okay, yeah, I get it now.
Shay (24:44):
But until you've lived it, you don't understand it.
You just think it's thismagical time.
Yeah.
Vanessa (24:49):
Yeah, but you know we also need to look at financial
literacy too.
With all this and people whoare lacking financial literacy,
you know there may this be.
There may be this unintentionalreliance on others for support,
and it's just because theydon't know.
They don't know better.
They think, oh, so-and-so, canalways figure out a way to make
more money, but I just I have noclue.
(25:11):
Well, you know what?
Maybe there's some stipulationsin there that if we help you,
you know you have to sit downand have a conversation or learn
about money, because that'sgoing to help more times over
than just giving somebody youknow $20 or a hundred bucks or
whatever it is Exactly.
Teach them how to fish, exactly.
Shay (25:30):
I have.
Vanessa (25:31):
I have a cousin that I helped with a mortgage and that
was one of the rules when wefirst set this up he had to have
a budget.
We needed to know exactly whathe could afford, if it was
doable.
He had to follow that budgetmonthly and I'll tell you it
worked in the beginning.
But later on not so much, buthaving those things kind of set
(25:54):
up and having thoseconversations at least puts
people in the right mindset too.
Shay (26:00):
Yeah, send them this way.
Crusaders for change, we canhelp you.
If you want some money for me,you got to go meet with
Crusaders for change.
I don't know something, butpeople need support and they
need literacy, they neededucation.
So, yeah, yeah.
And then there's this dependencyon loans and gifts.
Right, some people use lovedones as financial crutch, rather
than necessarily changing thing, like downsizing and adding
(26:22):
more income to your balance,your, your spend plan, your
balancing your budget.
You know people are out herejust trying to live their great
lives and I mean that's why alot of people's like, oh, I see,
I was talking about, wastalking about this earlier with
somebody like, just because yougot a big house and a card on me
rich, it probably got a bunchof loans, credit cards, you know
.
So people out here reallystruggling, but you know they're
(26:43):
depending on their loved onesas a crutch and that's not cool
Because, again, as we keepsaying, those loved ones that
quote unquote, have it together,may have, you know, savings and
are responsible.
It's the word I always use withmy family Don't, don't, what is
the word I always say?
Don't penalize me for beingresponsible, exactly.
And that's how I feel like theypenalize me or they talk bad
(27:05):
about me or say, and they thinkthey know no, no, no, no, Like
we've been working our behindsoff to get where we are and it's
because we're responsible.
Vanessa (27:19):
We're not out here spending all our money on crazy
stuff.
Yeah, and that is so true.
There is this whole like beingpenalized for that Cause.
Shay (27:22):
I feel that way too.
Vanessa (27:22):
You know, it's like oh well, you know you're going to
do the right thing, so you don'tneed X, Y, z or I'm going to
leave money to this personbecause you don't need it, and
it's like why am I beingpenalized?
Shay (27:31):
Or why is this person being penalized?
Vanessa (27:33):
for making good choices and it takes a second because
you're like, okay, so if I madebad choices I would get more out
of people.
Shay (27:40):
Maybe I just need to not do what I need to do.
I've had that mindset back inthe day.
Maybe I should be more likesome of my siblings were and are
, so I could get yeah, and it'llpay for all my kids to do this.
Well, my kid to do this.
You know their kids get morebecause, well, shanae's going to
take care of Alana, so we'lljust wait a minute.
That's not fair to Alana.
(28:00):
Like, what are you doing rightnow?
Vanessa (28:03):
Exactly, or, you know, leaving someone out of an
inheritance because you knowthey're, they're doing well and
it's like, okay, so you're,you're matching everybody up,
sure, when all that is done.
But the reality is is thepeople who have not worked hard
for things and haven'tsacrificed.
It's going to be gone in a year.
(28:23):
It's going to be gone in a year, and that person that knows how
to make responsible choices anddecisions, they would have kept
it there for years and years tocome.
Shay (28:28):
There's a parable in the word about that.
Remember Jesus?
He was like, or somebody wasgoing to give it to the person
that I'm messing this parable,this scripture all up.
But that exact example youshared right there is in the
Bible and it talks about how youshould give to those that are
more responsible, versus they'reout there crazy.
So exactly, yeah, exactly.
And then let's talk about noemergency surgeon savings.
(28:50):
I think we did a whole episodeon this.
But even a small unexpectedexpense can lead a person to
rely on others, encourage themto save and be prepared.
I mean, how many times we talkto our clients about it?
Our families like, yeah, andthey're like, everybody always
gives me this excuse Well, whenI save, I have to use it.
Duh, like, that's what it'sthere for.
I was like eventually you getto the point where it can sit
(29:15):
because your life is kind ofcold down, cool down and you
don't have to worry about it.
But that's what the savingsthere?
Because then you don't have tocall your family, you don't have
to get a loan, you have to useyour credit card because you've
had the savings.
Vanessa (29:24):
So you need to save people Right, or you hear that
phrase.
I just can't catch a break.
There's just always, it's theworld is out to get me.
Shay (29:33):
And it's like, okay, the world is not out to get you.
Vanessa (29:35):
We all go through this.
It's just how we handle itsometimes and you know I have to
pay for this and I have to payfor that, just like you do.
I mean I went gosh.
I went to a doctor'sappointment one time and didn't
have insurance and I think mybill was like 300, $400.
It was crazy.
And you know the girl was likeI guess you want to, you know,
set up a payment plan.
I was like no, I'll just payfor it.
Shay (29:56):
Yeah.
Vanessa (29:56):
And I remember her looking at me and she's like I
wish I could just pay for it.
And I was like well, so that'swhy you have an emergency
savings, because things likethis happen.
Shay (30:05):
Yeah so.
Vanessa (30:06):
I planned ahead of time for things like this and it's
like, if you ever want to have aconversation, call me.
Shay (30:11):
We can talk about those exactly and side note sometimes
it's cheaper to pay withoutusing insurance, but we're not
going to go into that, becausethat's just crazy world.
So, and then there is power andstepping back from others.
Sometimes jesus withdrewwithdrew from crowds to pray, as
in luke 5 16.
So sometimes you just need tobe still and know god and he
(30:33):
will, and just talk to him.
God's like I want you to talkto me about every little thing
to big thing.
Vanessa (30:39):
So if you're struggling , you need to have a
conversation with God and youcan step back and you can step
out of that relationship for abit and and be not as close to
that person as you were for yourown mental health and wellbeing
and financial and financialwell-being.
So it's okay to kind of not, Iguess, maybe.
(30:59):
Maybe just separate yourselffor a bit and, you know, remove
yourself from the situation andback up and just take a break.
I do that with people all thetime.
I take many breaks from people.
Shay (31:09):
And it's like okay, I'm going to.
Vanessa (31:11):
I'm going to take a break for a little bit and just
kind of, you know, do theminimum that I have to do, you
know, for my sanity and myhealth, and it's okay to do that
with someone who is, who isusing and abusing you
financially yeah, that part andget off social media.
Shay (31:25):
Don't say that, stay out.
You need, when you get to takea break for them, don't go.
Oh man, I can't believe they'redoing it.
Just get off social media, okay.
And then I'm going to say here,in 2 Thessalonians 3.10, it
says For even when we were withyou, we gave you this rule the
one who is unwilling to workshall not eat.
Amen, that part.
(31:46):
Any final thoughts?
I would just remind everyonethat it's okay to say no to
someone and saying no can be ablessing, because even God
doesn't tell us yes all the time, and when God says no, you need
to listen.
I'll end on that.
Thank you, guys, for anothergreat episode.
We're excited.
A big thank you for listeningto this episode.
(32:09):
We hope you found today's chatabout the intersection of
religion and money insightful.
We would love to hear yourfeedback.
Hit that subscribe button orfollow the podcast and please
feel free to leave us a review.
Vanessa (32:22):
Yes, and for the latest Yahweh's money content, visit
us at www.
crusaders4change.
org or find us anywhere youlisten to podcasts.
Until next time, stayfinancially fit and spiritually
inspired and remember it'salways better Yahweh's way.
Ever felt those awkward vibes when religion and money
come up?
You're not alone.
Welcome to Yahweh's Money, thepodcast where we tackle the
crossroads of faith and finance.
I'm Shay Cook, an AccreditedFinancial Counselor, and the CEO
and founder of Crusaders forChange LLC.
Vanessa (00:19):
And I'm Vanessa McNelley, Accredited Financial
Counselor and COO of Crusadersfor Change.
Join us on our journey as wediscuss topics like tithing,
saving, and conquering debtthrough religious perspectives.
Let's get started.
Shay (00:35):
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Yahweh's
Money.
Hey, Vanessa, how are you today?
I am good.
How are you, Shay?
I'm good.
I'm excited to talk abouthelping or enabling.
I think we talk about this alot in many conversations you
and I have had over the years,but in family it can get deep
and crazy sometimes because weall do it.
Vanessa (00:55):
Right, and I think you and I have a lot of experience
in this realm too.
Shay (01:00):
Well y'all, in this episode titled Helping and
Enabling, which is which we'redelving into a tricky question
when does helping someone turninto enabling?
We'll explore how our financialgenerosity and support can
reflect God's love, but alsowhen it might cross a line into
fostering dependency or evenenabling poor choices.
(01:22):
Through scripture, personalinsight and practical advice
will help you discern how togive wisely and responsibly,
while honoring your ownboundaries and faith.
So let's figure out how to helpothers without hurting them or
ourselves in this process.
So here's a stark reminder fromMatthew 7, 6.
(01:44):
Do not give dogs what is sacred.
Do not throw your pearls topigs.
If you do, they may tramplethem under their feet and turn
and tear you to pieces.
Oh, my goodness.
This verse encourages us to useour best judgment about when
and how to give.
Wow, that's a lot.
Vanessa (02:08):
Yeah, and that's a great visual too, honestly.
Shay (02:09):
Because it really matters.
Vanessa (02:11):
You know who we give what to because they see it as
something great or something notso.
I think that's a really goodreminder from the beginning.
Yeah, but first, what's thedifference?
What's the difference inhelping and enabling
(02:41):
no-transcript example of someonewho's enabling somebody else?
And I think we go through thisa lot with our own families and
then a lot with our clients.
Shay (02:55):
We do we do and I know I've.
I'm guilty of enabling a lot,and you know when you're coming.
When I was coming up and I wasyounger, I enabled a lot because
I didn't know any better.
I didn't know the difference.
I don't even think I knew whatenabling meant.
I think I learned that intherapy or something like you're
enabling, or my husband mayhave said it, but then you start
to realize like yeah, I'mreally not helping these people.
(03:18):
They are, we are, like it says,continuing.
They are continuing harmfulbehaviors.
We are too.
If we're constantly helpingsomebody or enabling somebody
and not helping them with thegoal to empower them, that's, it
can be really tricky, as westated already.
Vanessa (03:33):
It really is.
And if you think about thatverse again and you think about
something that we've worked so,so hard for, and if we're giving
it to somebody, as you know, asas helping and just a temporary
gift, you know they might seeit the same way we do.
But if it's something thatthey're getting all the time,
you know they're going to see itas nothing and it's just
another handout, some more money.
Oh, it's nothing to this person.
(03:55):
But the reality of it is it canbe something that's really
special or sacred to us thatwe're giving up.
Shay (04:01):
That is so true.
And that could be anythingright Time, money and just yeah,
plenty of stories.
I would love to hear a storybefore we move on and you
enabling somebody there's somany stories.
Vanessa (04:14):
We all know the good story about a Jeep that I
purchased for oh my God, wasthat really?
Enabling.
I don't know if that wasenabling or not but, I think
I've.
I've gone above and beyondquite a few times in my life and
not known where to kind of stopand set those boundaries.
I think that's been one of mybig problems is the boundaries.
Shay (04:32):
Yeah.
Vanessa (04:33):
But I know, growing up I have a brother that I don't
really talk about a lot and youknow we grew up in the same
household, we have the sameparents, but my entire life it
was poor little brother's nameand that's how he was referred
to.
(04:55):
So it was Vanessa and poorlittle brother which I think
really led to this enabling of,you know, my parents and my
grandparents and everyone aroundhim, because it automatically
put this picture in your headthat there was something sad or
he needed extra or needed more.
And you know, to this day it'sbeen a situation where it's been
an enablement, versus beingable to just help and let go,
(05:16):
and it's turned into somethingthat's been expected his entire
life.
So that's been something thatI've dealt with on the outside,
kind of watching, but it's yeah,yeah.
But when you can add thosewords in you know, poor little
so-and-so, or bless their heart,or those words that we say, I
think it automatically puts apicture in our head of, oh, they
need something and oh, it's nottheir fault and oh, they're
(05:39):
going to do better next time.
Shay (05:41):
And that's not always the case that is so true, and
especially you and I being theoldest, that plays a lot into it
too.
We just come into this world asoldest, older children, having
this responsibility, and thenyou're there to take care and
support your young siblings.
And then, as you get older andyou maybe you start working
first, making more money first.
Whatever situation may be,you've always been in that
(06:02):
caretaker, parental role andthat carries on until adulthood
and then they continue to use it.
It's like hold up, I'm not yourparent, you got other parents,
but you also need to learn fromthis because you are growing up
and becoming an adult.
And that's where I say it'sdefinitely been a boundaries
problem for me.
I didn't know.
I've always been that secondmama to my sister and brother.
(06:22):
And then, even when yourparents start asking you for
money which I've gone throughthat too it's like wow.
You know, everybody thinks Shayis responsible, and I know I
shared this before.
I had to close down the bank ofShay, like over a decade ago,
because it was constantly peopleasking me for money, not even
family, some even friends justoh, I'm in a bad position, Can
you help me pay my electric, Canyou help me pay this?
(06:43):
And it's like okay, after awhile that you have to take
responsibility, so it's not myresponsibility to take care of
you Exactly and it turns intosomething that is not just a
one-off.
Vanessa (06:55):
It turns into an expectation.
Shay (06:56):
Yes.
Vanessa (06:57):
And I really think that's where that enabling comes
into play is when it's anexpectation.
It's like, oh well, I'm stillgoing to buy these shoes because
so-and-so will help me with mypower bill.
And it's finding that personthat will feel sorry for us or
help us because they have extra,and we're like, oh, it's okay,
they've got it, it's not a bigdeal to them.
(07:18):
When the reality of it is, itis a big deal and it should be a
big deal.
And it's one of thosesituations where you're not able
to to grow up and be able tohandle your own situation.
And I always say you know, Ithink we have a lot of clients
that do this with their kids andit's like what's going to
happen one day when you're notthere?
Yeah, what is going to happen?
(07:39):
Because you've not taught themhow to provide and take care of
themselves, and when you're notthere, all of a sudden, there's
going to be no backup plan.
Shay (07:48):
Exactly that's what my husband says to my daughter all
the time.
We need to prepare our daughterfor when we're not here, you
know.
And so, yeah, she might be ableto fall back on us now, but
even now it's like no, you needto figure it out.
You're of age, you're finallyyou're working, you know and all
that, and eventually you'regoing to have to move out and
take care of yourself.
But if dad and I pass away, youknow, and when we, you know,
(08:10):
you'll be able to take care ofyourself.
Vanessa (08:11):
Exactly, and that is such a gift you can give your
kids.
It is a huge gift.
And you know, I still thinkthere's so much stigma around
financial struggles, so muchstigma and culturally too, it
discourages us from actuallyhaving those conversations and
talking about those strugglesand that can lead to repeatedly
asking for private help.
(08:32):
We know the person we can go to.
We don't have to say anythingto anybody else.
Nobody else has to know.
But we don't talk about thesethings, and if we would talk
about them we'd realize otherpeople are having the same
struggles.
Shay (08:45):
Everybody's having some kind of struggle, yeah.
And we can learn from eachother.
Vanessa (08:50):
We really can.
Shay (08:51):
This is when I this point is so amazing because, even
though my mom, I'm going to putmy parents on blast, but as I
always do in these episodes, youknow there are certain people
in my family that can't keep,can't hold water, as they would
say back in the day.
So they, you tell themsomething about and they're like
you know, someone stole thatand asked me for money, this and
that you know.
So it was never really private,which is sad, uh, on that part.
(09:13):
But on the other end, you'relike no, we should all be
talking about this.
We should sit down and say,okay, what is the problem?
How do you?
Do you need to learn how tomanage money?
Do you need need to be bad withcredit, whatever, savings,
whatever?
We need to be having theseconversations and I don't know
why we have the stigma.
I do know why we're not goingto talk about it on here, but
there's some systemic orsystematic issues around that.
(09:36):
But still, yeah, it could be alot, and stigma is real in a lot
of different areas, not onlymoney, but that's why people are
committing suicide.
They lose hope, I mean, thelist goes on.
Vanessa (09:54):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And if we would have theseconversations, you know, we
might have some moreaccountability there too,
because everybody kind of knowsand it's like well, you know, I
don't want them judging me, butI could use a little extra nudge
sometimes, like well, shouldyou be going out to eat?
Or you know those type ofthings and we can be
accountability for each other.
And having somebody to walkthrough that with is amazing,
even if they don't have to.
If somebody chooses to walkthrough that with you and do
(10:18):
things the way, you're having todo them.
You know, I got a milliondollars.
I bought a house, a car.
Shay (10:32):
What about all the stuff you had to do to get up to all
of the hard work?
I know when Nate and I boughtour first house, our family was
like, oh my God, how can theyafford this?
Or why did they do this, youknow, and not even how can we
afford the house.
But all the stuff that we didafterwards and it's like we hard
for this we saved.
(10:52):
You know that, and I hatedhaving to state that over and
over because it's like oh, itwas just handed to us.
No, it wasn't like.
Vanessa (10:56):
I worked for this, yeah , and people don't see that.
They don't see those.
You know those things, justlike you were saying, and they
don't see that.
You know you stayed at home sixnights that week and they don't
see that.
You know you clip coupons andyou did all these things behind
the scenes.
You know that's nobody'sbusiness.
Honestly.
Shay (11:11):
Yeah, but it's a sacrifice and discipline and self-control
that you have to have in orderto achieve these great things.
Exactly.
Vanessa (11:17):
And everything that you have to work for it's going to
require some kind of sacrifice.
Shay (11:21):
Yep Some kind of sacrifice yeah.
Vanessa (11:23):
And then, you know, also helping in a lot of times
is, you know, it's a, it's acultural norm for a lot of
people and it may be your dutyrather than a choice.
And this happens in a lot ofcultures, but especially in
Latin American cultures, inAsian and South Asian cultures
(11:44):
those are the biggest culturesthat have this as part of it.
But I think to an extent, a lotof, a lot more cultures have
this, where it's expected thatyou give and sometimes you're
expected to take everyone else'sneeds into account before your
own.
And I think we see that a lotof times when we have immigrants
who come to the U?
S and the family automaticallythinks, ooh, they're going to be
(12:07):
rich, you know, they got allthis money coming in, but they
forget and they don't understandhow much it costs to live here.
I mean gosh.
I had a client one time.
Um, he was from Kenya and hecame over with his wife and his
two children um militarypersonnel and he would not eat
dinner at night, so he hadenough money to send home to his
(12:30):
family, and that is a sacrificeto not be able to feed yourself
, so you can send money back toyour family so they can have
nice things.
And it wasn't even just to feedhis family, it was so they could
have nice things.
And the family never saw thatsacrifice and they just thought,
oh, he can afford it, he canafford that.
But the reality of it is is,sometimes people are put in
(12:52):
those positions where there's nochoice, it's just an
expectation.
Shay (12:56):
And I would add, not only a cultural norm, but also a I
guess maybe a sexist or sexgender norm is females.
Women, we put a lot of things,we are taught like you come
second, third, fourth.
You take care of your family,your community, everything else.
Then you take care of yourself.
So I know, even having my child, I remember my grandmother like
(13:20):
why are you going to get yourhair done?
Why are you going to buy noclothes and stuff?
Like I was wearing old stuffand doing it because it was all
about taking care of my child atthe time.
Like it took me two to threeyears to understand.
Like it ain't just about her,like you need to take care of
yourself too.
But that's what I saw my motherdo, other mothers do.
They put themselves last in alot of situations, not only in
(13:41):
motherhood, but in partnershipsand jobs and things.
List goes on.
And so, yeah, it's a gendernorm as well.
Vanessa (13:48):
Yeah, and it's really harmful when you come into that
place where you realize whatyou've been doing and you kind
of wake up and it's like, well,wait a minute, it's okay to take
care of me, it's okay to feellike I'm important because if
you take care of yourself, youare a better version of yourself
for everyone else, and weforget that.
We really forget that and Ifind myself kind of falling back
(14:09):
in those roles often.
You really forget that and Ifind myself kind of falling back
in those roles often, often,because it's a hard cycle to
break.
Shay (14:14):
It is really hard If you've been doing it all your
life.
It's so hard.
But it feels so good to haveself-care and take care of
yourself.
But then I feel guilty, exactly, exactly, because I'm like, why
am I taking care of Shay?
I got to do this, I got to dothat, like my brain goes crazy
because I'm so used to it.
So we need to get out of thatstigma.
That it's not.
You know, self-care shouldn'tbe stigmatized.
I mean it should be.
(14:34):
It's healthy to have self-care,it's okay to be selfish every
once in a while and it's okay tobuy things for yourself.
Yes, exactly.
Vanessa (14:42):
And it's okay to have nice things.
And it's okay to you know, toprioritize your own family
versus your extended family andall these other things, and it's
okay to say no to people.
Shay (14:52):
And we forget that too.
No is a complete sentence.
I had to tell one of ourclients recently no is a
complete sentence, you don'thave to explain it.
No reasons, no excuses, Justlike no, thank you, I'm good.
And what about all theemotional factors?
I think we're kind of alreadytalking about it but, like the
obligation that it comes with,givers feel compelled to help,
(15:12):
especially when the recipient isa loved one.
I know I've struggled with thatbecause when I see a loved one,
whether it's my immediate, myfamily, my family, origin,
extended I don't like to seepeople struggle, you know.
But I know my husband,especially when it comes to our
daughter, he's like she needs tostruggle, she needs to learn
that.
You know, sometimes lifedoesn't work out.
(15:33):
A lot of times it doesn't workout the way you want to.
So I have to.
It's hard for us givers notwanting, and we feel it, we feel
an obligation.
Vanessa (15:41):
We do and you know, with that too, when we have, you
know, young people struggling,that is the time you're supposed
to struggle when you're young.
So you know you, you can pickyourself back up, you can work
harder, you can have two jobs,you can do all that extra stuff,
you can have roommates, so youdon't have to do it later in
(16:01):
life.
If you struggle early, it isgoing to take you to that place
where, when things happen laterin life, you've got it because
you've been there before.
You know, and I know, I've hadthat in my own life, when I went
through my divorce from myex-husband, who was military.
I, you know, I tell people thisall the time.
Shay (16:19):
There's always that that period of time that's going to
be dark.
Vanessa (16:20):
But if I had not struggled earlier on in my life,
I would not have been okayliving in this teeny tiny
apartment with only an airmattress and having, you know,
15 to $20 for groceries a week.
But I did it and I never askedfor help from anyone and I was
able to do it because I've hadstruggles earlier on and I knew
what to do.
Oh wow.
(16:41):
And it's such a gift to be ableto do that and know what to do
and how to handle the situation,and so many people can't, then
they so many people couldn't dowhat you did because they would
be so embarrassed.
Shay (16:52):
I couldn't put it on the ground, like you know, they
wouldn't be able to have peopleover.
It's like we all been there,where you know you've had the
well, not all of us, but some ofus been there where you, you're
in that apartment with hardlyany furniture.
You can't, like you said, youcan't afford to really feed
yourself.
Like, yeah, I've been there tooand it's hard, and I wouldn't
(17:13):
say I was in that strugglebefore.
But during that struggle andlearning it and experiencing it
and the sacrifice of it all mademe not want to go back to that.
So like, yeah, I ain't doingeating these ramen and Eggo
waffles for the whole weeks onend rest of my life.
I don't want to go back to that.
So so yeah.
(17:34):
And then you know, the fear ofconflict is another one.
Saying no, as we've alreadytalked about, can be
uncomfortable and strainedrelationships.
Me saying no to some of myfamily members has caused silent
treatments, angry reactions.
Totally don't hear from themfor years on end, like it's
gotten crazy because of the no.
But hey, I was afraid to do it,but it was necessary.
Vanessa (17:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I have had this with my sibling
the same thing.
It's one of those situationswhere there are people out there
who are so good at manipulatingcircumstances that they can be
as nice and kind until they hearthe word no, and then they just
change and they want nothing todo with you anymore and you're
(18:17):
a horrible person because yousaid the N word you know, so
it's like no, no is okay to say.
Shay (18:23):
And some people need to hear that word.
They do.
Vanessa (18:26):
There are a lot of people out there who have never
heard no before.
Shay (18:30):
I love that scene in Wicked when Ariana Grande is
told no or she doesn't get herway and she gets so damn
dramatic about it.
But some people I know peoplehave gotten that dramatic
Vanessa about.
They're like oh my God, I can'tbelieve you said no to me.
Oh my God, I didn't get my way.
When she does that scene, I socan relate.
I mean, I really could.
I'm like oh my God, it's sodramatic, but it's.
(18:51):
Some people are just like thatbecause they've gotten their way
all their lives and then whenthey're finally told no, and
that's a, that's they are.
We are enabling and hinderingour children and our family
members by not teaching them noexactly.
Vanessa (19:06):
Exactly.
Shay (19:06):
I mean it started in our generation when they were giving
everybody damn trophies Hello,because they should have been
like no, you're behind to notwin a trophy for eighth place,
like no.
Vanessa (19:18):
Eight out of eight.
That's what I did.
It's the truth.
It's the truth.
It's okay to not win.
We need to know how to takethat defeat.
We need to know how to not getthat the promotion or the raise
or all these things that happenin our lives.
We need to be able to handlethem.
Yes, and you're right, there'sso many people who are our age
(19:38):
and younger that can't, theycan't handle those situations.
Shay (19:42):
They go crazy.
Hearing the word no, they'relike oh my God, the world is
about to end.
She just told me no, I willtell you.
Vanessa (19:49):
So my stepniece just got married.
Shay (19:52):
Last weekend Wow.
Vanessa (19:55):
She married a guy who's in the air force and going to
Germany together.
But she messaged me one day andshe was like can you believe
that my dad's not paying for mydress and he's not paying for
this and he's not paying forthat?
And I was and she was like hemakes the same amount my mom
makes because they're divorced.
Shay (20:11):
And.
Vanessa (20:11):
I was like do you realize your dad's still paying
child support for your sibling?
And he has a house payment andhe has a new spouse and
stepchildren and all thesethings.
And it's like and you're 19 andgot married on a whim.
So it's like there wasn't timeto plan for these things and
it's like you know I was tellingher I was like when, when that
(20:32):
happened for me, I had to payfor all my own things.
It's not an expectation thesedays for most people that their
family's going to handleeverything.
But I was like she's going tohave a real learning curve of
marrying somebody in themilitary.
Shay (20:47):
Yeah, cause you get to say they tell you know a lot.
Her husband's going to becoming home because he's going
to be told know a lot, yeah,yeah, but you know I'm glad
she's learning at 19.
It's not 29 or 59.
Exactly, so that's just part ofthe process, you know.
And then also, desiring to feelneeded, helping others can
provide us with the purposewhich can lead us to helping,
(21:08):
help us making enablingdecisions.
It buys relationships.
Vanessa (21:12):
sometimes, you know, and that's like said, that's
happened in my family, it's likeoh well, if they come by, I get
to see them and we get to spendtime together and I can give
them that money for for whateverthey need.
But it's like is that reallythe kind of relationship you
want?
Shay (21:27):
Exactly.
Yeah, I see that with familymembers in order and only way
they'll get their grandkids tocome over and like I'll buy you
lunch, I'll buy you dinner, it'slike they should just be
wanting to come over, just tocome over, not because you're
buying them their food.
And now they've set thisexpectation.
So when they come over my housethey're like I say, do you have
this?
Like I ain't.
Your grandparents Don't becoming over here only to get
(21:48):
food.
You better come over here andspend some time with me.
So yeah, and if people want tofeel needed and it's sad, I mean
you know that's part of us ashumans, is part of our fabric,
so we just got to realize how todeal with that.
Vanessa (22:00):
Yeah, and there's so many other ways to do it and to
feel needed and be part ofsomething, without doing it over
and over again.
For the same person who who isnot helping themselves?
Shay (22:11):
Or that whole thing.
Oh, they'll change.
Right, Give givers believe theyhelp, will, that their help
will inspire the receiver tochange, but the receiver has to
be held accountable.
There's the A word that we keepusing accountability.
That's lacking all acrosseverything.
Right, yeah.
Vanessa (22:28):
Because if it's always going to be there, why change?
Shay (22:31):
Yeah, exactly.
You don't set the expectationExactly.
Vanessa (22:35):
Yeah, why change?
Because there's no need to.
The change happens because it'snot there anymore.
Shay (22:39):
It's not there anymore and you have to.
Yeah, exactly, crazy.
Vanessa (22:44):
It really, really is, you know, and then sometimes we
see this with this imbalance ofwealth too.
You know, if somebody has morethan others, or there may be
this whole expectation, becauseyou do have more, that you have
to take care of others, or youknow, there's a reliance because
somebody has more.
I think we've both seen this inour families too.
(23:05):
Somebody has more, even thoughthey're not, you know, overly
wealthy or whatever just becausesomebody has something extra.
everybody else wants it orthinks they can afford it, but a
lot of times they don'tunderstand what it takes to get
there.
Shay (23:18):
It's the hard work and sacrifice, self-control and
discipline that they don't haveand they think they're going to
come in my world and use what Igot when I did all of this and
you're going to skip all thosesteps and take advantage of my
blessings, Like no, you bettergo somewhere and go get your own
.
That's real talk right there,Like you know, sometimes you
don't have the money if you'rethe wealthy one.
Vanessa (23:39):
Um, you know, there's.
There's this whole thing.
Like my grandmother used to say,my mom was rich and I'm like,
no mom has like car payments anda house payment and she had a
business and so, because mymother had a business, she was
rich, but the reality was shewas paying 30 employees and you
know there's all these thingspeople don't think about.
They just think, oh, you havethis, so you've got to have
(24:01):
money, and the reality is ismost people don't.
You know, they're livingpaycheck to paycheck just like
everyone else.
But there's that outward viewof they have more and the
reality is, a lot of times theydon't.
Shay (24:13):
They don't.
It's like the military right.
A lot of people to this daystill like well, you're in the
military, so you're rich.
No, just because we're going tothese fancy quote unquote
countries and states and got ahouse and we got food, that's
the least they can do.
So it's not that we're rich,it's just part of the whole
process of being in the militaryLike it's not we're.
(24:33):
Most of the people arestruggling.
They really are, yeah.
Vanessa (24:36):
Yeah, and I think you know, when you look at paychecks
and you look at moves and allthose things too that cost extra
, then you'd be like, okay, yeah, I get it now.
Shay (24:44):
But until you've lived it, you don't understand it.
You just think it's thismagical time.
Yeah.
Vanessa (24:49):
Yeah, but you know we also need to look at financial
literacy too.
With all this and people whoare lacking financial literacy,
you know there may this be.
There may be this unintentionalreliance on others for support,
and it's just because theydon't know.
They don't know better.
They think, oh, so-and-so, canalways figure out a way to make
more money, but I just I have noclue.
(25:11):
Well, you know what?
Maybe there's some stipulationsin there that if we help you,
you know you have to sit downand have a conversation or learn
about money, because that'sgoing to help more times over
than just giving somebody youknow $20 or a hundred bucks or
whatever it is Exactly.
Teach them how to fish, exactly.
Shay (25:30):
I have.
Vanessa (25:31):
I have a cousin that I helped with a mortgage and that
was one of the rules when wefirst set this up he had to have
a budget.
We needed to know exactly whathe could afford, if it was
doable.
He had to follow that budgetmonthly and I'll tell you it
worked in the beginning.
But later on not so much, buthaving those things kind of set
(25:54):
up and having thoseconversations at least puts
people in the right mindset too.
Shay (26:00):
Yeah, send them this way.
Crusaders for change, we canhelp you.
If you want some money for me,you got to go meet with
Crusaders for change.
I don't know something, butpeople need support and they
need literacy, they neededucation.
So, yeah, yeah.
And then there's this dependencyon loans and gifts.
Right, some people use lovedones as financial crutch, rather
than necessarily changing thing, like downsizing and adding
(26:22):
more income to your balance,your, your spend plan, your
balancing your budget.
You know people are out herejust trying to live their great
lives and I mean that's why alot of people's like, oh, I see,
I was talking about, wastalking about this earlier with
somebody like, just because yougot a big house and a card on me
rich, it probably got a bunchof loans, credit cards, you know
.
So people out here reallystruggling, but you know they're
(26:43):
depending on their loved onesas a crutch and that's not cool
Because, again, as we keepsaying, those loved ones that
quote unquote, have it together,may have, you know, savings and
are responsible.
It's the word I always use withmy family Don't, don't, what is
the word I always say?
Don't penalize me for beingresponsible, exactly.
And that's how I feel like theypenalize me or they talk bad
(27:05):
about me or say, and they thinkthey know no, no, no, no, Like
we've been working our behindsoff to get where we are and it's
because we're responsible.
Vanessa (27:19):
We're not out here spending all our money on crazy
stuff.
Yeah, and that is so true.
There is this whole like beingpenalized for that Cause.
Shay (27:22):
I feel that way too.
Vanessa (27:22):
You know, it's like oh well, you know you're going to
do the right thing, so you don'tneed X, Y, z or I'm going to
leave money to this personbecause you don't need it, and
it's like why am I beingpenalized?
Shay (27:31):
Or why is this person being penalized?
Vanessa (27:33):
for making good choices and it takes a second because
you're like, okay, so if I madebad choices I would get more out
of people.
Shay (27:40):
Maybe I just need to not do what I need to do.
I've had that mindset back inthe day.
Maybe I should be more likesome of my siblings were and are
, so I could get yeah, and it'llpay for all my kids to do this.
Well, my kid to do this.
You know their kids get morebecause, well, shanae's going to
take care of Alana, so we'lljust wait a minute.
That's not fair to Alana.
(28:00):
Like, what are you doing rightnow?
Vanessa (28:03):
Exactly, or, you know, leaving someone out of an
inheritance because you knowthey're, they're doing well and
it's like, okay, so you're,you're matching everybody up,
sure, when all that is done.
But the reality is is thepeople who have not worked hard
for things and haven'tsacrificed.
It's going to be gone in a year.
(28:23):
It's going to be gone in a year, and that person that knows how
to make responsible choices anddecisions, they would have kept
it there for years and years tocome.
Shay (28:28):
There's a parable in the word about that.
Remember Jesus?
He was like, or somebody wasgoing to give it to the person
that I'm messing this parable,this scripture all up.
But that exact example youshared right there is in the
Bible and it talks about how youshould give to those that are
more responsible, versus they'reout there crazy.
So exactly, yeah, exactly.
And then let's talk about noemergency surgeon savings.
(28:50):
I think we did a whole episodeon this.
But even a small unexpectedexpense can lead a person to
rely on others, encourage themto save and be prepared.
I mean, how many times we talkto our clients about it?
Our families like, yeah, andthey're like, everybody always
gives me this excuse Well, whenI save, I have to use it.
Duh, like, that's what it'sthere for.
I was like eventually you getto the point where it can sit
(29:15):
because your life is kind ofcold down, cool down and you
don't have to worry about it.
But that's what the savingsthere?
Because then you don't have tocall your family, you don't have
to get a loan, you have to useyour credit card because you've
had the savings.
Vanessa (29:24):
So you need to save people Right, or you hear that
phrase.
I just can't catch a break.
There's just always, it's theworld is out to get me.
Shay (29:33):
And it's like, okay, the world is not out to get you.
Vanessa (29:35):
We all go through this.
It's just how we handle itsometimes and you know I have to
pay for this and I have to payfor that, just like you do.
I mean I went gosh.
I went to a doctor'sappointment one time and didn't
have insurance and I think mybill was like 300, $400.
It was crazy.
And you know the girl was likeI guess you want to, you know,
set up a payment plan.
I was like no, I'll just payfor it.
Shay (29:56):
Yeah.
Vanessa (29:56):
And I remember her looking at me and she's like I
wish I could just pay for it.
And I was like well, so that'swhy you have an emergency
savings, because things likethis happen.
Shay (30:05):
Yeah so.
Vanessa (30:06):
I planned ahead of time for things like this and it's
like, if you ever want to have aconversation, call me.
Shay (30:11):
We can talk about those exactly and side note sometimes
it's cheaper to pay withoutusing insurance, but we're not
going to go into that, becausethat's just crazy world.
So, and then there is power andstepping back from others.
Sometimes jesus withdrewwithdrew from crowds to pray, as
in luke 5 16.
So sometimes you just need tobe still and know god and he
(30:33):
will, and just talk to him.
God's like I want you to talkto me about every little thing
to big thing.
Vanessa (30:39):
So if you're struggling , you need to have a
conversation with God and youcan step back and you can step
out of that relationship for abit and and be not as close to
that person as you were for yourown mental health and wellbeing
and financial and financialwell-being.
So it's okay to kind of not, Iguess, maybe.
(30:59):
Maybe just separate yourselffor a bit and, you know, remove
yourself from the situation andback up and just take a break.
I do that with people all thetime.
I take many breaks from people.
Shay (31:09):
And it's like okay, I'm going to.
Vanessa (31:11):
I'm going to take a break for a little bit and just
kind of, you know, do theminimum that I have to do, you
know, for my sanity and myhealth, and it's okay to do that
with someone who is, who isusing and abusing you
financially yeah, that part andget off social media.
Shay (31:25):
Don't say that, stay out.
You need, when you get to takea break for them, don't go.
Oh man, I can't believe they'redoing it.
Just get off social media, okay.
And then I'm going to say here,in 2 Thessalonians 3.10, it
says For even when we were withyou, we gave you this rule the
one who is unwilling to workshall not eat.
Amen, that part.
(31:46):
Any final thoughts?
I would just remind everyonethat it's okay to say no to
someone and saying no can be ablessing, because even God
doesn't tell us yes all the time, and when God says no, you need
to listen.
I'll end on that.
Thank you, guys, for anothergreat episode.
We're excited.
A big thank you for listeningto this episode.
(32:09):
We hope you found today's chatabout the intersection of
religion and money insightful.
We would love to hear yourfeedback.
Hit that subscribe button orfollow the podcast and please
feel free to leave us a review.
Vanessa (32:22):
Yes, and for the latest Yahweh's money content, visit
us at www.
crusaders4change.
org or find us anywhere youlisten to podcasts.
Until next time, stayfinancially fit and spiritually
inspired and remember it'salways better Yahweh's way.
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