#48 Nuanced Activism & Standing for Something with Johnathan

In this episode, we're joined by Johnathan @jonahsahn , a pioneering content creator who began his journey in 2008. His unique perspective as a Black American and Filipino has made him a powerful voice at the intersection of Black and Asian identity. In 2020, he founded the Black and Asian Alliance Network, promoting solidarity between these communities during a time of heightened tension. Check out his podcast series, The Boys Are Black In Town @jonahsahn on YouTube.

In this episode, we chat about:

• Video games and diversity
• Traveling to Japan and what a "sense of belonging" looks like
• Intersectionality of Black-ness and Asian-ness
• Nuanced activism and standing for your beliefs
• Doing the work to help the community
• Performative activism and virtue signalling

You can find our guest at:

• Youtube: @jonahsahn
• Instagram: @jonahsahn

You can follow me at:

• Instagram: @stevenwakabayashi
• YouTube: @stevenwakabayashi
• Subscribe to my weekly newsletter: mindfulmoments.substack.com
• Visit our website yellowglitterpodcast.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
If you don't stand for something,you will fall for anything.
Stand ten toes down in whatever itis that you believe, and then all of
you activists and all of you peoplethat are doing all of these causes, we
need a social contract that says thatwe're going to become more nuanced.
We're going to use the vocabulary that wethrow around in terms of intersectionality

(00:22):
and understanding and inclusion.
And we're going to act like the internetis not just a place where you can say
whatever you want and then dip out.
We have to be able to talk to eachother and we need to be able to
agree to disagree if that's what itcomes to, because the other person,
no matter how much you hate whatthey say, are going to exist anyway.
You actually need to do thework to get there before you.

(00:45):
Label someone as a thing.

(01:06):
...everyone, my name is Stephen Kochi and you're listening to Yellow Glitter
Mindfulness Through the Eyes andSoul of Queer Asian Perspectives.
This episode, we're joined byour ever returning lovely guest.
Jonathan Gibbs.
Jonathan, pronounce he him, isa pioneering content creator
who began his journey in 2008during the early days of YouTube.

(01:27):
His unique perspective as a BlackAmerican and Filipino has made him
a powerful voice at the intersectionof Black and Asian identity.
Hosting various podcasts whosesubjects range from being queer to
being Blasian, Jonathan offers nuancedinsights into the world through the
lens of a queer person of color.
In 2020, he founded the Black andAsian Alliance Network, promoting

(01:49):
solidarity between these communitiesduring a time of heightened tension.
Recognized with the Brooklyn Free SpeechAward, Jonathan is a passion activist
and trailblazer, making a lastingimpact in the fight for social justice.
Welcome back, Jonathan.
Thank you for havingme yet again, Stephen.
Here we are.
It's like an annual event.

(02:10):
It is our annual event.
And last time you were on, wewere talking about the very
popular Fire Island episode.
Oh.
Fire Island series, actually, not episode.
Yes, TV series.
Well, it wasn't a TV series.
It was a one time movie.
It was a movie?
On Hulu, wasn't it?

(02:33):
Yes, that I remember.
So we talked about Fire Island,and since then, do you want to
share with the audience whathas been the reaction been like?
Well, I remember after thatepisode came out, like, maybe,
was it, when did that come out?
Was it like the winter of 2023?
I think it was earlier in the year.

(02:54):
I think it was like spring becauseFire Island didn't necessarily
come out in the summer, or I couldbe getting that wrong completely.
Anyway, it was quite some time afterthe episode that I was in a particular
digital Gaijin space commenting onsomething completely not about Joel
Kim Booster or the Fire Island movie.

(03:16):
Yeah.
When someone responded in theconversation like, Oh, hey, I agree with
you on whatever we're talking about.
And by the way, I reallyenjoyed your podcast episode.
I was like, well, firstof all, it's not mine.
It's my dear friend, Stephen Wakabayashi,Yellow Glitter, go check it out.
It's all of ours.
But thank you for letting me know.
And that's happened like two orthree times throughout the year.

(03:37):
Oh, nice.
That and being the face of transphobiaon the sexual harassment training
for New York City and the state.
Which apparently is usedby a lot of non WIUers.
Wait, what?
What is this story?
I don't know this.
All through the year I get textmessages and emails of people saying,
or screenshots like, is this you?

(03:58):
And it's like, yes, it is me.
I am the transphobic person in thetraining for sexual gender that New
York State Human Rights Commission made.
I did that gig.
And now I have to be theproblematic person in the video.
Wow.
And so, people who know me or arefamiliar with me, when they have to

(04:20):
take their annual, uh, sexual harassmenttraining and gender equity training.
Yeah.
Where they get to see me andthey're like, wait, what?
So, I get those messages all year as well.
Oh my god.
Wait, how do they cast this?
How do they?
Oh, I knew, I had like a, uh, Ihad an acquaintance at the time

(04:41):
that they were shooting that.
Yeah.
And they were like, We need someone thatcan be like, uh, cis and problematic.
And I was like, that's me.
Not because I have a reputationfor being transphobic.
It was like, I was the cis personamong a circle of trans folks.
And yeah, they were like, Hey,would you mind being on this thing?

(05:04):
You know, they're like, it pays.
And I was like, cool, whatever.
Cool.
I'll do it.
I'll help somebody.
Somebody's got to do it.
Somebody's got to put it together.
Someone's got to be theproblematic cis person.
Yes.
Yeah.
You don't have to look too far.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One more question on that.
What was your specific training module on?
What is the lesson?

(05:24):
So, it's basically teaching employees,like, the fact that different
people identify different ways.
Like, trans men, trans women, nonbinary, gender non conforming.
And it's like, it's a,it's a collection of skits.
I do know that there were manyother people in that thing as well.

(05:47):
Uh, one of them, oh gosh, Ican't recall the name right now.
I'm getting old.
Some people that are familiar,have familiar faces in like TV
and, uh, shows centering queerand trans youth, like Pose.
So you would think that I would rememberthe names right now, and I can't, so.
Sorry.
I am perpetually high, asI said in the pre show.

(06:09):
I'm going through a little coldor something, as you can hear me
sniffle, and so I'm high on NyQuil.
So the mind is not all here, butyou're gonna get a show anyway.
She is a showgirl.
The show must go on.
Absolutely.
Yeah, for me, I got a few reactionsand I think some of the people

(06:30):
were like, Oh, I loved it.
What do you mean by all of this?
You know.
And I think it facilitated a lot ofconversations after that movie had
shown, and I think there was a lotmore discourse, I feel like many months
after, right, just from the communityalone, talking about, you know, how

(06:51):
we want representation to show up,who should be in the movies with us,
and I feel like it was a lot of greatdiscourse, and then, fast forward,
everyone just like forgets about it.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, now they look back on it andit's just with, um, with, uh, rose
colored glasses, like, this was great.

(07:12):
Yeah.
Like, okay, whatever.
I'm not here to changeanybody's mind anymore or fight.
, You like what you like,and that's, that's that.
Cool.
Just like with Crazy Rich Asians,I hope that this now kicks the door
down for Other queer Asian folks.
Mm-Hmm.
. I'm Asian.
I'm, uh, crazy.

(07:33):
I'm not rich.
Um, and I'm not East Asian , butI'm not gonna poo poo on Crazy
Rich Asians for being what it was.
I instead celebrate what it wasand hope that it now opens the
door for more possibilities.
Yeah.
Chief among them a queerAsian film about Fire Island.

(07:55):
Which, okay, that's our firstattempt, now let's go for something
a little more along the lines ofwhat we were saying we wished for.
Yeah, and I think, I think the thingto underscore is that Jonathan and
I, when we talk about these things,it's not that we just have so much
disdain for it, but I think they'reimportant conversations to be had.

(08:17):
about it and a big part of that areconversations that we already have
on the side and whenever we talkwe're just like, oh we should have
made that into a podcast episode.
But a lot of the stuff have been stuffthat I've ruminated about too personally
and it's a desire of wanting more, right?
I feel like for our communities,a desire for wanting more.

(08:41):
It's specifically in this sense, morecomplexity of different types of queer
Asian narratives, um, definitely alot more diversity of Asian-ness,
but even the romance and the loveaspect to have more complex stories
rather than what we see typically.

(09:02):
And speak for yourself because I, Ido speak with disdain, uh, because I
see so many people in the communitydigitally and even in real life
talking about how they're tired ofXYZ, whether it's representation
or being shunned in white spaces.
And I'm like, girl, please like, have someintrospection and want more for yourself.

(09:25):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Want more for yourself.
And then call out the factthat like, we could do better.
So I, like, if we're going over hereand championing this thing, which is
a story and we're not going to get,you can listen to the other episode
that I was in, we talked about this,but like, I can't imagine fiending
for white acceptance in white spaceswhere they're being mean to me.

(09:49):
Like you can only do that to me one time.
And then I'm just like, okay, whatever.
I'm not about to come upwith schemes and plans.
As to why I need to be in this space.
When clearly you don't want me here.
And that's your loss.
which is the normalized power dynamicof the like all spaces here in America.

(10:11):
I feel like it takes so many people,it's like myself also included, like
so long to realize how much effortwe had been putting into normalizing
versus finally stepping away.
And I think, you know, I've beengoing to talks in the past month
and a lot of the talks have beenaround, well, what do we do?
How do we navigate in this space?

(10:31):
And all these questionscome up time and time again.
And I think it points back to a bigpart of why I personally started a
lot of my different organizations,um, why you started your spaces.
It was this realization that sometimeswe just have to step away and just make
our own thing, create our own spaces.

(10:54):
Because the spaces in which our saying,they champion us, be so inclusive and
all that, leave much to be desired.
But it's a tale as old as time.
Yes.
It's like, we didn't create these spaces.
Like we were the pioneersor the first ones to do it.
There have always, there's always been,at least in this United States of America.

(11:16):
Yes.
Somebody who realized like, Oh,this is not the mainstream, which
is white centric, it's not for me.
Let me go over here and make this thing.
And then they do that thing.
And then, you know, youfind community and stuff.
And then mainstream finds a way tolike, rip it off and water it down and
then make it back into the mainstreamand then go through this weird cycle.

(11:39):
Happened a few times, so.
Yeah.
And also, just for your upcoming project,I think it's kind of relevant to it
where you do talk about these things.
You have an upcoming event thatyou're traveling to, right?
Over in Boston?
Yeah.
I am going to PAX East.
I am a gamer.

(12:01):
So last year, I'm going to speak aboutthis very matter of factly, and you can
Google whatever you need to, uh, becauseOne thing that I'm over is like being
in spaces, whether it's queer spacesor corporate spaces, where in corporate
spaces, people are talking about thegame and like my team and all this.
And it's like, nobody's explainingto me who's going to the Super

(12:23):
Bowl or who's going to the playoff.
Everybody just kinds of knows it.
And then in certain gay spaces,it's like talking about RuPaul's
Drag Race and like the Queensand this and like not explaining.
So I'm just prefacing this bysaying, I'm about to talk about
a bunch of queer video game shit.
And I'm not going tostop to explain anything.
We'll put show notes.
I am a fan of the Final Fantasy seriesand last year, Final Fantasy 16 came out.

(12:48):
In June, leading up to the release, they,IGN, Uh, which is a gaming magazine,
had an interview with Naoki Yoshida, whois the, one of the producers of Final
Fantasy XVI and the director of FinalFantasy XIV, the ongoing, uh, MMORPG.
And they asked him, given the games,the, at that time, soon to come out

(13:11):
games setting being in like a medievalEurope, would we be seeing more black
and brown people than what we had seenin the trailers and previews so far?
And he gave a really weird answer,which was like, basically leaning
towards saying that Black peopledidn't exist in that setting.
And so they wanted to beas realistic as possible.

(13:33):
And then the internet was like,well, actually there were plenty of
Black people in Europe back then.
So I always knew that therewas something weird behind it.
And then when you actually play the game,it becomes apparent, or at least creates
more speculation as to why that is.
Uh, that he answeredthat question that way.
And so this panel that I'm hostingat PAX East in Boston in March 2024

(13:56):
will be about why that conversationis important, why the question
even came up in the first place.
where that question came from and whyrepresentation of black and brown skin
is still important in Japanese media suchas anime and video games, which let's be

(14:17):
frank, they do it the best in the world,like they are awesome storytellers and
very specifically Square Enix, the companybehind Final Fantasy series has stated
that they want to be a more global, theywant to cater to a more global market, so
It's a very timely discussion for them.
And the tea is that Naoki Yoshida isgoing to have his own panel at this

(14:41):
event on that Friday, and then mypanel is on Sunday, so he'll probably
already dip out before my panel,but we'll be in the same spaces and
that's going to be very interesting.
Oh, that's going to be great.
I think the funniest part was when I wasseeing your Twitter feed about this a long
time ago, but this whole argument, right?

(15:02):
There were no black and brown peoplein medieval, where whenever it takes
place, and I think your reactionwas like, well, like magic, dragons,
all these mythical creatures.
And it's just something that, like, I feellike Especially in this day and age, it's,

(15:23):
history is also so subjective and alsoat the same time it's just a video game.
I feel like there's so many things thatwe could be so truthful about, right, in
this world but especially when it comes tovideo game, a fantasy video game, and you
also have other players you can play withthat are different hybrids of humans and

(15:45):
other creatures and elves and, you know.
And somehow, skin color diversityis the thing that's just like, and
it doesn't even need to be in thecontext of, because this place, this
specific place, and then many fantasysettings, they're not actually Europe.
Right?
Yeah.
Like, and even if they're based on aEuropean If it was even the world, right?

(16:06):
If it's even Earth.
Yeah.
There, there are gonna be places where,like, even a European place where
people came in by boats, there's trade,there's a Silk Road like thing, you
know, cause in ancient Europe there'sthe Silk Road that went to Asia.
And so brown people came from over there.
Yeah.
And then you're nearNorth Africa, like Yeah.
What?
Yeah.
It's just, it's It's wild to say that,but the content of the game, specifically

(16:31):
Final Fantasy 16, once you get intothat story, which I don't know how
many of your listeners are gamers,so I'm going to go ahead and plus the
game's a year old at this point, thegame ended up being about slavery.
Right.
And so like, when I figured thatpart out, I was like, Oh, then you
have a whole other thing to dealwith as a game developer, and that's

(16:52):
why I don't think that Yoshida andthe Square Enix team are so naive.
I think they were smart, theyjust couldn't communicate it in
a way that would not have beenviewed as quote unquote woke.
And that's putting it on thenice side because gaming is
not the most progressive space.
And so when you start bringing upthings like that, like issues like

(17:12):
this about representation and whatnot,or even a developer saying, We wanted
to do a story about slavery, and wedidn't want to include Black people
because we knew that the audiencewould make memes and run with the joke.
Right?
I'm not saying that that's what hesaid, but that's what I'm speculating
because otherwise, you know, youknow, they did their homework.
They, they knew that there wereBlack people in medieval Europe.

(17:34):
So.
Yeah.
What's really going on.
And then once you play the game,you're like, Oh, now I see.
Had they put a bunch of blackpeople in here, this would
have been super problematic.
And then there's even ways around that.
Right.
So yeah, I don't want to get toodeep into it, but yes, that's what
I'm doing at the end of March, 2024.
Oh, that's exciting.

(17:55):
I mean, It's, it's fantasy.
You could replace it with people withlike green skin, you know, and like.
Yeah, you have green skin people.
And it's like, and at that point,skin tone doesn't matter, but it does
matter because you want people as abrown or black person, you want to be
able to see people that look like you,who you can cosplay accurately without
people dragging you on the internetbecause it's not canonically correct

(18:18):
or getting into these arguments, it'slike, just put more black and brown
people and stuff so that you can.
squash a lot of these argumentsthat certain people love to bring
up when they talk about beingtrue to the source material.
And the source material itself, whetherwe're talking about Narnia or Lord
of the Rings or any other fantasything, is just so white centered.
Why did they even need to do a story?

(18:39):
Or why do so many fantasystories always have to be based
in a European like setting?
It's just, it's so tired.
Or it's like, what is so fantasticalabout these norms that we're just.
Deeply ingrained.
And there's nothing, there's nothingwrong with a good ol European like
fantasy with its sweeping vistas andmountains of snow and all this, but

(19:02):
like, let's get into, like, the AfricanSerengeti plains and let's get into the
mountains of Asia or, like, under the sea.
No, if that was the case, then they'lljust create a whole separate thing for it.
It's Wakanda.
Right.
It's, it's the one with, uh,what is, what is that one?
They're like super Black Panther?
No, the Asian one.

(19:24):
The Seven Rings.
Shang Chi and the Seven Rings?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's a hyper specifictheme, like, I mean, I appreciated that.
It was, I liked both of those.
I liked Black Panther and ShangChi and The Legend of the,
however many rings it was.
I said seven, but I'm notsure if that's what's coming.
Seven rings, eight rings.
I don't know, because ArianaGrande also has like a song about

(19:48):
a barbecue grill that she had.
Yeah, yeah, she got that too.
Hibachi Grill, right,is the barbecue grill.
It's a lot, there's a lot going on inthe recent, uh, Recent years, so no,
I, I appreciate those attempts andlike when they do do that thing again,
it's like the first, it's maybe not thefirst one, but it's like one of few.

(20:09):
And so what's your critique there?
Otherwise, what, you just want thesepeople to exist in a setting that looks
like our Western setting and it justhappens to have all these black and
brown and other non white people in it?
I think maybe what it is, is it'sputting ethnicities and race as a theme.
When in fact, it's nota separate genre, right?

(20:32):
Otherwise, then you'dhave a genre called white.
If you wanted to normalize things,you know, whereas like genre is
really about the type of movie.
And I think where we've kindof conflated it is anything
that's black and brown, Asian.
It has to be in those other places.
It has to be.
Like we have to shoot on location inTaiwan and South Korea, or like it

(20:54):
has to be a made up place in Africa.
It can be like, well, I guess Itried doing that with like a Disney
plus, but they were overdoing itwith phase four, the Marvel stuff.
Like, there was a Black American,um, Captain America story, right?
Oh, I didn't.
I, I completely lost trackof all the superhero movies.

(21:14):
I think, like, the Falcon guy becameCaptain America or something, so now
he's canonically the new, but I thinkpeople got really upset by that, so
I don't know what they're gonna do.
Is that actual lore, or no?
I think, I saw, like, I don't, I'm notthe best to keep up with that, but people
were like, in the comics, this is whathappens, and it's like, is it gonna
go to the big screen, and now there'smultiverses, so You can erase people if

(21:35):
you want to, like Jonathan Majors can havean assault case and then be erased even
though he was going to be like the bigbad, and now they've let him go, so that's
what you get for hitting women, you know?
Don't do that.
Don't do that.
Yes, do not.
But what you're saying aboutlike, uh, it would be called

(21:56):
white, that's very interesting,because like, Outside of the U.
S., we're kind of all just viewed asAmericans, regardless of how you look.
Yeah.
Right?
And that's super interesting to mewhen we have, we know, we on the
inside know, like, there are helladynamics going on between someone
who looks like me, how I identify assomeone who looks like you, right?

(22:18):
And both of us identifyas Asian of some kind.
But, at this point, I'm not evendown with, like, lumping all of
that together, because you and Ido not have the same experience.
Like, no shade, no tea,but, like, we don't.
I have people in my family who havesimilar experiences to yours, and we
do share some queer experience, butI'm going to be viewed differently,

(22:38):
and I, uh, understand that.
And I actually learned a lot out of that.
I, like, ruminated on thosethoughts being in Japan recently.
Well, before we get to that, I didn'tknow you had queer people in your family.
Did you mention that to me before?
What?
Are you joking?
No, you, I don't think youmentioned this before to me.
I, I don't have any queerpeople in my family.

(23:01):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I guess it depends on even howyou define family, because I can think
of plenty of cousins and things likethat, whereas, so I grew up with Uh,
in my mom's side, family was like theimmediate family, like mom, dad, grandma.
That's it.
And that's another, that's a bigdifference between like Black

(23:24):
communities and Asian communitiesthat I've noticed, but not like
broad stroking Asian communities.
Cause I know that like multi generationslive in a household and there are Asian
families who acknowledge their cousins.
But a lot of the Asian people that Iknew growing up in the 90s in Southern
California, the family was just likethe immediate household and cousins
were like this idea of like peoplewho live far away for whatever reason.

(23:49):
Well, when they, whentheir parents immigrated.
Yeah.
Well, true.
Yes.
But also my mom had sisters inthe same city and the cousins, we
were still not tight like that.
Yeah.
Whereas growing up in the South,moving to the South, Everybody
on your block was your family.
Like, and literally your family.
Not just because we all livedin the same neighborhood, but

(24:10):
because we were literally bloodrelated somehow, as cousins.
So, so when you asked, like,Oh, I didn't know that you had
queer people in your family.
I'm like, what?
Like, I know a lot of queer peoplein my family, but I define family
as, you know, all these extendedcousins and stuff, so it's, Uh, what's
the word, like, inevitable that I'mgonna run into another queer person?

(24:32):
I mean, what was it, 30 percent in aGen Z study that was done last year, 30
percent identified as non heterosexual.
So, LGBTQ, even IA, Ithink, I think that counted.
They just didn't identify as heterosexual.
Oh, interesting.

(24:53):
Yeah.
So, based on that probability,about one third is family.
Yeah.
So, you mentioned yourecently went to Japan.
And you had a lot ofrevelations coming out of it.
One thing is I absolutely love Japan.
It is one of my favoriteplaces to go in the world.

(25:14):
I used to go every few years.
I would hop on by, um, sometimes I wouldhave a connecting flight and I would
just spend time in the airport in Japan.
But this is your first time thereand Uh, especially as somebody who's
been steeped in a ton of Japaneseculture, Japanese video games.

(25:36):
What was that experience like, justlike visiting for your first time?
Well, since I am Black and FilipinoAmerican, like there's no Japanese
in me, like, I don't I went over withthe expectation, and having known
like how people act about Japan.
Yeah.
Let's roll it back real quick.
My interest in Japan is because ofanime, is because of video games.

(26:00):
But I have seen how other peoplewho idolize Japan and center it in
that way act, like the weeaboos.
And I'm vehemently againstthat kind of behavior.
So you don't like a weeaboo?
The first thing that I want to say is thatwhen I went to Japan and everything that I
talk about, even since then, I approachedit from a standpoint of I am a visitor.

(26:23):
I'm staying in an area where probablyif you're a normal, everyday, regular,
dangular Japanese person, you'renot going to be living in that area
because Japanese people have theirown issues with their country.
And I'm a tourist on vacation.
So I went in with that, uh, realityand respect for the people and.

(26:47):
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I got to meet up with somepeople that I work with.
Uh, that was really exciting.
Got to go into some really neat buildingsand see how they, like, just the very
small things, like their cafeteria.
So I went to the Google, um,building in Roppongi Hills and

(27:07):
then they have one in Shibuya aswell, but I didn't go to that one.
I had lunch with a colleague.
And in the cafeteria area, it's likebuffet style, just like anywhere
else, but it had like seven ricecookers, like big rice cookers.
And I was like, Oh my God.
Yeah.
In America, we're not going to havejust seven rice cookers, but it's

(27:29):
just a normal everyday, like, becauseour houses, this is something that we
do share is like rice all the time.
It's going to be there.
Right.
So for the workforce rice, so it's justlittle things like that, that made me
realize like, this is a, this is a.
a Japanese place run by Japanese people.

(27:49):
And then being an American, a BlackAmerican, and an Asian American, someone
with immigrant parents and then minorityparents from the continent, uh, whose
ancestors were brought over in chains.
This, this country, the U.
S., It is our country,but we don't run it.

(28:12):
And it's not for us.
Well, the argument is, especially forBlack communities who was forcibly
brought here, was it ever one's owncountry when, one, it wasn't even
your choice to immigrate to America?
and forcibly immigrate.
And then the other part is neverhaving had rights, you know?

(28:35):
Yeah.
And some people argue it hasnever actually been anyone's
country aside from white folks.
Yeah.
But again, I want to, so I want to, Iwant to acknowledge that maybe through
history, Japanese people have also hadmaybe their own revolution or like, Yeah,
and they were sent to internment camps,and then they lost all the properties.
No, not in America, I'mtalking about in Japan.
Oh, okay, okay.
Like, there's been like, all sortsof history there with like, struggle

(28:59):
of power, and then even trying togo beyond Japanese borders to do the
rest of Asia, some mistakes there.
There's a lot of mistakes made, yes.
But what I'm saying is like, in 2023 whenI went, as a tourist again, but still,
it was like, This country where it seemedlike you could belong if you wanted to.

(29:22):
And as I talk about this moreout loud, this is one of the
first times I'm processing this.
And it's been a few months now.
I've been waiting totalk with you about this.
Still feeling like I have to do, we haveto do so much extra performative wise.
To feel like we even, or at leastput on the person, the disguise

(29:42):
of just fitting in as Americans.
But at its very base, the idea ofthis quote, great American project,
Whether you're Asian American or BlackAmerican is that, Oh, it's a, it's
a place where a full bunch of peoplewho had different backgrounds came
together and made this new place.
So technically it is your place.

(30:03):
And it's like, that would be allwell and good if everybody were
fair and equitable about it.
But we know that the systems in placelimit and prohibit that fairness and
that equity and that a certain group ofpeople are at the center and kept the
wealth through history and passed itdown and own the buildings and, and can

(30:26):
send their kids to expensive cities andbuy them houses so that they can run
around Bushwick and do things withouthaving to worry about paying rent.
Whilst other people have to struggle.
Their family just owns a building, yeah.
Yeah, so, lots of thoughts.
What are you processing?
What's like, the processing for you?

(30:49):
Uh, just thinking about it, I guess.
Do you feel that here?
Like a lot, oftentimes?
More now than like, I had felt it,but then going to Japan and seeing
kind of like this cohesiveness, kindof like this agreement of we're going

(31:09):
to do these things and whether that'sgood for them or not, depending on
who says what is good and what is not.
So like not intervening a lot,at least stereotypically, not,
not confrontational, but also.
Like, not littering, right?
Like, we talked aboutthat in the pre show.
Yes, I did see garbage on the floor.

(31:31):
And yes, I did see a guy peeingin the streets in Kabukicho.
You did?
I've never seen that.
Like, it was like seven in the morning.
It was after everything had closedand people were about to go home.
But I, of course, with my biologicalclock, I was walking around.
So, like, these were theyakuza, like, winding down.
You and I also don't sleep, yes?

(31:51):
I was like, Jonathan at like three inthe morning and Jonathan's like, hello.
Well, I was on the other sideof the planet and I forgot
that people on the, in the U.
S.
were like, not on the same, but no,even in Japan, because my biological
clock was kind of, I was up at likefour every morning and the sun was
also up, which was really weird.
I just would get up at like sixand walk around neighborhoods.

(32:13):
So I was walking every day,but yeah, I, I saw that.
So I'm not saying that it doesn'thappen, but like, I only saw garbage
cans one time on the last day that I wasin Tokyo and I saw very little trash.
Whereas here in NewYork, trash everywhere.
There's a trash can andthere's garbage around it.
And there are garbagecans on every corner.

(32:34):
So I am saying all this to say, like,there's like the social contract.
And I wonder if the social con contractis based on that idea of where if
you feel like something's yours,then you're gonna treat it better.
Right?
And in this case, Japanese peopleprobably feel like this country, this
city, this street block is theirs.
And so they want to keep it nice.

(32:54):
Whereas here in America, Ithink there's a lot of, like the
city should do it, entitlement.
Maybe it's entit, it's entitlement,but it's also like this.
lack of, I guess, whatever the oppositeof, and like pride in your neighborhood.
Because it's not your neighborhood.
Like this is owned by somebody else.
And I understand what that's implying.

(33:16):
And I'm trying, it implies thatJapanese people feel like they own
their neighborhoods and that's notacknowledging whatever, maybe they have
issues with landlords there too as well.
But there's something there, right?
Yeah, especially as Japanese folks inthe culture, you're brought up very

(33:36):
integrated within a larger communityand even even as we talk about like
one of the more popular religions rightlike buddhism for example is really the
concept that there's something greaterthat unites us rather than this like act
of having to be a certain way right andi feel like in japanese culture there's

(33:59):
a bigger sense like you mentioned ofcommunity of society and i think I've,
I've struggled to articulate this aboutAmerica where it's like some, like most
people will be like, well, it's aboutlike me first and then it's me second
in like Japan or these other countries.
Right.
But what I think, uh, another waythat I've started to articulate it

(34:22):
is really, I, I like your take of,well, is this truly mine, this space?
and these people around me, right?
My relatives, my family, friends,my community, or is it like
something that I'm just like,this is me against the world.
And there's something interesting tobe said about that because most of

(34:43):
the people who run the country herein America, in corporations and all
these places, like this was nevertheir ancestral homeland, you know?
Right.
And so I think there's somethingto be said about that being the
underpinning of this country.
led into the culture that we havenow, where there is no respect

(35:04):
for nature, the land, and all thisstuff because it was never a part
of the practice to begin with.
But we are very good at taking space,colonizing different territories, right?
We're definitely really goodat claiming a staking ground,
property, and maybe that's it.

(35:26):
Where I feel that in certain countries,In Asia, in Africa, where there's
been thousands of years of heritagepassed down, there's maybe that
too, where it's not just this is myland and my space, but this is of
my ancestors and people before them.

(35:46):
And so if I'm not taking careof this space, it's not I'm just
disrespecting me and my immediatefamily, generations of people before me.
And that's a very interesting point too,because I went to a lot of shrines and
temples and a thing that ran throughmy mind as I was reading about, like
reading the plaques and the informationit's like, or like Googling it, cause

(36:09):
I like to research where I'm going.
These places are older than our country.
Or the United States of America.
There are bars in Europe and toilets inAsia that are older than the United States
of America and it's just, it's wild to me.
Yeah.
Some sacred grounds.
Yeah.

(36:30):
And there was an energythere that was just like.
So old.
And so I think that, um, what you saidabout like the underpinnings or of the
foundations of the country, not onlyis it everything that you said about
not respecting nature and expansionand individualism, or rather I wanted

(36:52):
to add that part of individualism.
Very me, me, me, capitalistic.
And all these, there are othercapitalistic nations in Asia for sure.
But that lack of community.
And it's hard to make community withpeople when they don't like you.
And like, when they very much like,hate you just based on how you look.

(37:17):
When we're so, we're so allegedlyall Americans, we're all
supposed to be in the same camp.
Mm hmm.
Yet, as Americans, you treat,Different groups, different ways.
One group that you brought over inChains Forcibly, you have consistently
destroyed their neighborhoods and theircommunities that they've tried to build
up to try to make a dollar and stolenland from another group of people.

(37:41):
And then you bring in otherpeople, uh, as cheap labor.
Yeah.
It's just like Well, you know thehistory of Central Park, right?
Where Central Park, Before the park wasthere, it was a whole enclave of I feel
like I'm the one who told you this.
Were you?
I feel like I was, but please,for your listeners, go ahead.
No, you tell us, you know, you tell us.

(38:04):
Just Google Seneca Village, that'swhat Well, that's what I was
mentioning with the stolen, it's notjust like stolen from the native.
folks, but just years andyears even beyond stealing
from different communities.
I feel like What you're saying isthat after it was stolen from the
Native folks, then they stole frompeople that were Americans, yes.
Yeah, or then they did the same thingto Japanese folks all around the United

(38:27):
States, especially in California, wherethey had homes, they had businesses.
And they were like, Hey, it's verypatriotic to like leave and be over here
while we figure out this war situation.
And then all of their business and homes.
And then they didn't get their stuff back.
They did not get it back.
And then there was a whole enclave offolks who were deported from America,
who were born in America and weresent to Japan with no citizenship.

(38:52):
And there were these whole groupof people who had no citizenship.
anywhere in the world whatsoever.
So, you know, I, I feel like Idon't want us to get too history
channel on your listeners.
Yeah.
But I feel like it's important to talkabout all of this to understand why
we criticize things like Fire Island.

(39:14):
Yeah.
So now let's thread the connection.
Like, we're talking about how, all thereasons why one might not feel included.
In the U.S..
Mm-Hmm.
. And why representation matters.
Why I'm doing this panel.
Yeah.
As compared to other places where it'snot necessarily homogeneous because
there are different ethnicitiesall throughout Asia and different

(39:37):
specific Asian, like Japan and China.
There are different kinds of peopleand there are different minorities and
they have their different, uh, issues.
But this great American project where theysay that, Oh, well, you're all Americans.
So you should all be happy as Americansand have all the same opportunities.
Do we have the same opportunities?
Is everyone getting equal time inthe spotlight in TV and movies?

(40:02):
Or, is the reality that everything thatwe present in media, in other venues,
always from a particular lens, i.
e.
the white lens?
Or are we building withinclusion in the future?
Because, speaking of something recent, Ijust recently read a report where people
were testing the recent build of ChatGPT.

(40:24):
And they realized that a lot of the biasesthat, we had talked about biases just
as a society, right, early on in hiringpractices where names, for example, were
screened out, particularly the ones thatdidn't sound as American, as white, right?
And so they ran this test where theyhad different resumes set up, and

(40:45):
they ran it through ChatGPT recently.
And ChatGPT was, order to rank themacross different industries and different
roles of who would rank the highest.
And what do you have?
Chat GPT re institutionalizing thesame exact biases that we had reported
when it was humans running it too.

(41:06):
And so I think the other point I'madding too on top of yours is This is
so important because the future thatwe're building, we have to figure out
what the F we're gonna do because rightnow things are crumbling, things are
falling apart, I feel like things areeven worse than before in a way, but also

(41:31):
everyone's in just not the best place.
And meanwhile we have so much, and thishas been a big narrative for myself,
but over the past like year and a half,I haven't been on social media as much.
I've just completely exited it.
I'm just seeing just all the stuffthat was being circulated in the sense

(41:52):
of like, I was like, but where arewe going with all of this, you know?
And, you know, I've mentioned on previouspodcasts, but why I truly value Jonathan,
especially as a friend and fellowcollaborator, is you're one to also
create spaces and actually make the changeand creating the things that we need.
And I feel like we've sometimes beencaught up, so caught up with all of this.

(42:16):
On the flip side, right, talking about isimportant, but on the flip side, sometimes
we get so stuck in this space where we'rejust talking and talking and droning
each other out, but sometimes forgetting,like, in reality, like, we're here,
we have to figure out what to do witheach other, whether we like it or not.
It's like siblings, youknow, like angry siblings.

(42:36):
Um, who've been fighting for so long andyour parents are just like, figure it out.
But it's also okay to um, to tap out.
It is very much okay.
I actually tried to get back into aparticular Not circle, but like planning
for an organization that I had lentmy energy to about two years ago.

(43:02):
And at the first meeting I was like, Oh,I remember why I left this the first time.
This is, this would be an example ofdoing the work quote unquote, and it
would be for a great, it's organizingfor a great cause that comes up every
summer, but I just don't, I'm notworking with these particular people.
It wasn't just oneparticular kind of people.

(43:23):
It was.
I'm tired of having to go throughthe rigmarole of dancing around this,
but then this weird logic, just veryweird logic around a lot of things.
I'm being intentionally vaguebecause I don't want to out this
organization for anything problematicthat may or may not have happened.

(43:45):
Problematic stuff happened andthat's why I dipped out on the call.
But like, just seeing that people talkthe talk since 2020 about being diverse
and inclusive, and with everythinggoing on in the world today, and you're
making a, you're planning for a hugeevent that millions of people come to
New York City for in the summertimefrom around the world, and there's just

(44:08):
so much cognitive dissonance around.
What you say, you know, and whatyou say, we need to champion.
And then actually puttingthat into practice when it
comes down to planning stuff.
And I got into that space oftrying to organize with people.
And I was like, you know what?
You all do what you're going to do.
You don't need me because I'm notabout to have these same arguments.

(44:30):
And that's me specific, you know?
And if anybody else wants to dothat, kind of get their hands
dirty and that kind of work in.
have to have those tough conversationsand make people feel uncomfortable
because you're calling them outon how they're being hypocritical
on certain issues, then fine.
You expend that work and expendthat energy if you have it to give.

(44:51):
Sometimes it's good to tap outand recognize that you don't
have that energy to give.
What has been a lesson or learningsince we last talked in a year of
continuing to be a part of this work?
doing social activism digitally,physically, the lesson that's come
up for you that you've learned.

(45:12):
So I'm glad that you asked that becausethe last time that we talked, we had
planned to talk about a certain thing,not specific, but a dynamic within that
organization that we didn't get to.
And so it's something that I've learnedsince then and that I've clocked and
the story I just laid out is me puttingaction into being aware of this.

(45:34):
And this is the weaponizationof marginalization.
It is people trying to use one issue orone intersection to kind of one up you.
And it's like, girl, we'reboth marginalized people.
Just because you're more marginalizedthan me doesn't mean that.
And ironically, we both sharethe other thing that you're not.

(45:56):
So it's not like just because you'rethis one thing, suddenly you are more
valid than anything that I have to say.
But people will use these differentintersection, intersections to
claim that they are more oppressed.
And we're not saying that you're not moreoppressed, but that oppression doesn't
give you more validity in a non relatedsituation where we're talking about

(46:22):
some complete other thing like planning.
I'm being very vague because again,I'm not trying to out anybody more.
Understood.
Maybe more will come out.
What resonates with me from thatis, and I've talked about this with
previous episodes and also a lessonfor me in the coming year was, and why

(46:44):
it was really hard in social media,is I don't think social media does a
really good job of holding multipletruths at the same time, right?
Multiple conflicts at the same time.
And what you're talking about,this aspect of Marginalization
and then even like the concept ofintersectionality and the concept of
identities, we have facing certainmarginalization and the intersection of

(47:09):
that is also very uniquely different.
I feel like a big part of this alsopoints to the fact that we're all
shouting in this echo chamber thatonly allows one thing to pop out at
once, you know, it's like, it's likethis conveyor belt at the front.
It's like this, all, everyone's throwingall these little bits and problems, right?

(47:30):
And then we're waiting for almost likethis algorithm to like cherry pick.
Okay, this problem is the most important.
It's resonating the most, and thenit goes down the conveyor belt.
And then it pops up in our feed.
And I, I think that's been alsovery top of mind for me of why I've
also not been as active on socialmedia is even looking at conflicts

(47:53):
happening all around the world.
I think there's so many things thatare still happening and I think the
struggle is how do we give voiceto all of them in an equal way.
I also reflect on, I have some folksworking over at Planned Parenthood, right?
And they're being asked to stand upfor certain causes and issues and

(48:15):
the folks are still dealing withthe issues of the overturn of Roe v.
Wade still, you know, and, and especiallywith the work that you do, that I do, that
we all do in community already, I thinkthere's this thing that's really important
to underscore is, especially when ourmembers start weaponizing us for not

(48:37):
having done more work for certain things.
But then we're already workingto help different communities,
to help different facets of it.
I think it's so hard to, right, toyour point, start pitting while one
is more important than the other.
But the realization is we all arestruggling very, very intensely across

(48:59):
different, not even a singular spectrum,right, a variety of different markers.
I think where I'm starting to seemany communities, especially that
are very heavily in social media,are headed towards is this loss
of empathy for that, you know?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's, it's this theory that it's notempathy that we're after, but it's what

(49:25):
is creating the most anger, the mostturmoil, the most pain of that moment.
And then, to your point, right,weaponizing the marginalization
of that, to then say toeverything else, well, be quiet.
You're not as important right now.
Yeah, and let's get to the heart of it.
I said I was being intentionally vague,but through the years, especially working
at the intersection of Blackness andAsianness, being a Blasian myself, and

(49:50):
many other Blasians in the same boatwith me, And whether they know me, and
I'm talking about instances where we'veactually been together in digital spaces
trying to navigate this, or if you're justa regular ass Blasian somewhere else that
does this on your own on a daily basis.
Like the whole since 2020 thing where itwas like Asian people saying like, stop

(50:12):
Asian hate, transactional allyship withBlack people, or, or, I'm going both
ways with this, Black people dismissingAsian attacks and the fear that Asian
people have because Black people havethe history they do in this country.

(50:33):
Not invalidating either side, but a lot ofpeople, like personally I'm not, but a lot
of people will do that across the aisle.
And if you call it out like someone likeme, then, oh, you're being a traitor to
this side, or oh, you only care aboutblack people, or oh, you're, you're riding
with the Asians and not Well, wait, beforeyou continue, one, the plus one to that

(50:56):
is, it's the othering that they're doingto you, right, where it's like, you were
never, I didn't truly consider you asa part of my community to begin with.
So it's almost like finding a reasonto validate why they're allowed
to other you as a part of it.
Yeah.
And I mean, you could apply, youcould take that same thing that I just

(51:18):
laid out and apply any identities.
Mm hmm.
And it, especially if youdo exist as a person at the
cross of those two identities.
Yeah.
It's even more difficult.
Yeah.
But it's because social media is the wayit is, um, and I commend you for getting
off of it and saving your sanity andrecognizing and clocking these dynamics.

(51:44):
And yeah, there's, there's realpeople behind these profiles
in a lot of this work we do.
There's also a lot of traumaand a lot of stuff that.
We don't have to sift throughto keep our own sanity.
And when it's something easy likeTwitter or X or Facebook, where all
you're doing is typing and dumping onsomebody and you're not seeing the person,

(52:05):
then it's just easier to be, whetherintentional or not, less apt to receiving,
or like communicating effectively.
Yeah, and my, my big lesson that I'vebeen really taking part in has been Well,
where are you trying to go with this?
Right?
It's like with all this that is beingput on social media, being perpetuated,

(52:30):
all this stuff, like what's the end?
So what's the end goal, right?
And oftentimes it's a very hardanswer to give because it really takes
into account where we're at and whatare we really thinking, you know?
And I think there's There's somethingthat I haven't really talked about that

(52:51):
I'm going to share on this podcast thatI think is also really important that's
very similar to our discussion now isalso this concept of abolition, right?
And I feel like in social justiceand many different discussions,
there is this concept of abolition.
It's a very trendy word asof the past few years, right?
And it's a very hard topic becausetrue abolitionists, right, is

(53:15):
this notion of abolishing certaininstitutions as a part of policing,
as a part of creating order through,um, you know, a very biased judgment.
But I find that there is this verytricky line that people tow, right,
when it comes towards like holdingquote unquote accountability, right?

(53:36):
And all of a sudden it's like you standfor the abolition of police state,
but then the instant like you faceany personal persecution or anything
that's happened, you're guarded.
You're calling the cops.
All the cops.
You're calling 9 1 1, and you're like,get them, you know, and it's this,
it's this rhetoric that, you know,just seeing it from the sidelines.

(53:56):
That I've been observing of all thesepeople who, you know, will claim
certain terminologies and words andas soon as anything happens in their
garden, in their space, that theyare pro police and pro judgment.
Because they're clout chasers.
Because they're clout chasing.
Because it's too hard to be real about.

(54:19):
The fact of the matter and it's thatthe popular thing for a lot of people
during the since 2020 is what defundthe police or abolish the police and
then you had conversation around thatbecause defund doesn't mean abolish
and people who are abolitionistswould let you know that very quickly.
And then there are people whoare like, Oh, well then, okay.

(54:40):
I mean, abolish the police when reallywhat they really felt was defund the
police because they are overfundedand give that money to certain other
places like mental health, but I stillwant police because if someone mugs
me, then I want to be able to call thepolice, but you're, you can't stand 10
toes down on that view because you'reafraid that other people, abolitionists
or whoever, or the people who are alsobandwagoning are going to call you out.

(55:03):
Yeah.
Like, no, stand ten toes down in it.
If you want the police to stillbe around, then that's you.
That's your opinion.
And if you want to defund thembecause you feel like they have
too much money, but you still wantthem to be around, that's you.
Or, if you're the type of personthat just thinks there should be
no police at all, stand ten toesdown in it so that we can have the
conversation instead of bandwagoning.
Because that bandwagoning leads togroupthink and just You can tell I can get

(55:29):
very nosy about this, but I, I, both ofus have sat on the sidelines and watched
people jump onto bandwagons just so thatthey don't have to think for themselves,
so that they can avoid getting dragged.
And it's like, no, don't get, don'tallow people to drag you, just
tell people why this is how youfeel and then we can work on it.
And then at the end of the day, it'sthe internet, we can agree to disagree.

(55:51):
At the end of the day, it's the internet.
It is.
And I think you and I both, I thinkover the years, we've developed a
lot of empathy in doing this work.
This work is not easy.
Like, creating organizations,creating space, creating moderators.
Jonathan, I know you'realways on calls with people.
New teams to figure out how you'readdressing certain issues that are posted.

(56:12):
Back in the day we were, I'mnot even going to front like we
still do that stuff, but back inthe day it was really required.
Back in the day you were, youwere, you were putting in the time.
It was a job and it was unpaid.
For everyone, not justme, but for everyone.
It was unpaid and And that is, it takes alot of work and I think, especially for so

(56:35):
many folks, and this is why I also reallystruggle with social media, is so many
folks who claim, and I think this is whereI get really, I have a lot of difficulties
with, especially with a lot of themainstream influencers, right, who will
hop on a lot of these really trendy thingsAnd at the end of the day, especially

(56:58):
as, you know, someone like yourselfand someone like myself, we started
our own organizations and businesses.
And if these influencers honestly,truly cared, the tea is, if
they truly cared, why don't theystart these organizations, right?
To go, like, champion thesecauses and these Too much work.
Exactly.
That's too much work.

(57:20):
Exactly.
They could easily start.
I just want to get a checkfor posting my black square.
Now we're getting back intoperformative allyship and performative
activism and performative.
It never left, it never left social media.
It never left and people putthe book back on the shelf a

(57:40):
long time ago and we clocked it.
I clocked it for sure.
And I'll forever, I think I've said iton this podcast twice and I say it on
every time I get on this, every time Iget on a platform, I make this example.
Gushers and Fruit by theFoot said Black Lives Matter.
What the hell?
But you know, I think thatwas our very first, our very

(58:02):
first podcast episode we did.
And you know what, anotherone, here's another one.
So where we talked about that.
Here's another one.
No, I'm not going to call them out.
I do like the space, but a space forGaysians, a very big space for Gaysians
on the internet had stickied on the main,like on the front page, a thread about

(58:22):
Black Lives Matter and why, and theyhad like 400 likes and then this year.
I think I sent you screenshots about this.
Someone went on a rant about why everybodyhas to tiptoe around Black people.
And if I don't, and if I like whitemen, then I'm just gonna, like, that
I should just be allowed to do that.
And why do Black people alwayshave to be at the center?
Oh, it was because that video, there wasa video that went around recently here.

(58:44):
It was on Reddit.
20, well, I wasn't tryingto out any community.
But, but there was a video thatwas shared on Reddit from TikTok.
And I forgot, it was a guy, it was aEast Asian guy, and he was talking about
basically not fitting into white spaces.
That, for January 2024, whoeverthat was, it happens all the time.
But someone posted it, and then, uh, itgot to Twitter, and then a lot of Black

(59:07):
people responded, well, you know, thisis how Asian people treat Black people,
and so then in the Reddit, An Asianperson, a Filipino person, was like,
why is it that Asians feelings neverget heard, or like, we're silencing
Asians, and then they were like, Thisvideo was about an Asian person talking

(59:28):
about not fitting into white spaces.
Why did Black people have totake over the conversation?
Why is it always about them?
And I went off.
I was like, you are so embarrassing.
We are both Filipino.
This is so embarrassing that youare throwing Black people under the
bus because you want to be includedin white spaces like this person.
Everybody, like, he waslike, oh, most of the quotes.

(59:50):
Retweets were about black peopleand getting the most likes.
I was like, because it's true foreverything that that guy was saying
in that video, the Gaysian was saying,the East Asian Gaysian was saying
about not, yeah, going back to fire on.
Yes.
Y'all get treated shitty by white people.
And.
You treat Black people shitty,like, Oh, I can't find a date.

(01:00:10):
Well, maybe you should broadenyour horizons, because plenty
of people do want to hate you.
Maybe not just shitty ass white people.
So, I don't know if we can talklike that on here, but like,
they are not, they are not foam.
Go for the people who go for you.
Whether they're Asian or Black orWhite, like, just don't limit it to
one thing, but oh God, that's anothertopic that you know I can go on forever

(01:00:32):
about, but how did we even get here?
It's that performativeness.
Because it's that, because they allowedall that to that conversation to happen.
Whether they're, maybe they're noton watch anymore, like maybe the
mods are not watching anymore, butlike, but then for years, like three
years, had Black Lives Matter stickiedat the top of a Gaysian space.
Like, stop it.
Well, it's, I mean, it just goesback to these spaces, right?

(01:00:54):
Like, you rarely know the full contextof what's happening with the space,
and you rarely have the full story.
And I think nine times out often, what you're trying to piece
together are just from littlefragments on social media, right?
And so people will do just a lotof this virtue signaling, right?

(01:01:18):
of these little things,putting it in the ground.
Have they really done the work?
Not really.
Oh, my last point with thisis that the work is hard.
This work is really hard.
And I think we should define peoplemore by the work they're doing
rather than by who they say they are.
And I think in all of these social mediaplatforms, at least that's the biggest

(01:01:42):
lesson that I've learned, is I'm tryingto listen more by actions, not by words.
And those who depend solely on wordsto let you know who they are, I think
there's so much that's just lost in that.
And those who are speaking more by actionsthey're taking, things that they're doing,

(01:02:04):
I think helps to show a little bit moreof the actual work that's happening, yes.
I agree.
Also that people should not,people who are doing the
work should not be pressured.
Like you have to keep, you have tohave a website or you have to have
something to show for your work.
But don't feel like, like youjust have to do something.

(01:02:26):
Like if you want to tapout, like that's my thing.
If you want to tap out, you can do that.
I have tapped out.
I did a lot of stuff.
We've got a website to show.
That does say what, who we are and allthis stuff, but at this point, I'm not,
I'm here for the memes and the laughs,like at this point, uh, especially
in Black Asian Alliance Network, it'smore of like finding things that make

(01:02:50):
us, us and things that we relate to.
The most recent post that was really, um,poppin was a simple question, Uncle Phil?
Or Uncle Iroh, like, that's, thoseare two very, like, one's very Black
and one's very Asian, you know, UnclePhil from Fresh Prince, then Uncle
Iroh from Avatar The Last Airbender,and that generated a lot of, uh, that

(01:03:16):
generated a lot of conversation, andit got pretty deep, actually, so,
people were like, well, Uncle Philnever did war crimes, and someone else
was like, well, Uncle Iroh wasn't ajudge in mid 90s Southern California
under the Clinton administration.
Wait, I didn't know he wasa, was he really a judge?

(01:03:36):
Yeah, Uncle Phil was a judge.
Wasn't he?
I feel like he was.
In the new one on Peacock, he's a judge.
I had, I had no idea, Ihad no idea what he did.
He would just come in much laterin each episode and saunter in.
Yeah, Uncle Phil, I feel, I thinkhe was a judge in the original Fresh
Prince of Bel That's so, I had no idea.
So there was a lot of deep conversationaround that, but like, as opposed to

(01:03:59):
like the early days when we're fightingday in and day out and trying to heal
because of things, I feel like maybeAt least from the media perspective,
a lot of things have simmered down.
But again, you have to wonderwhy the media was pushing
all that stuff at that time.
Because the stuff is still going on.
Like Asians still get attacked.

(01:04:19):
It's just, it's not gettingfoisted upon us every single day.
And so now we're not in the Blackand Asian space arguing with each
other every single day about it.
Well, I think a lot of Asianchannels have been either shut down
or the founders have gotten reallytired of just continuing to post.
about the violence and Ithink the same with many other

(01:04:41):
different minority based spaces.
I think people are justgetting tired of posting about
violence and stuff like that.
And also at the same time, Idon't know about that, Stephen.
I feel like some people made it more, Isay, I say this broadly as I'm noticing
less, but we'll acknowledge that therewere some spaces that their whole

(01:05:01):
dedication was to make the other side.
That's it.
No, they still do.
Some spaces still do.
That's it.
That's their whole channel.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
But they blocked me, so Me too.
I'm not going to be shady because I don'tplay with things like that, but um No.
Yeah, we've both been blocked.
What is an advice who are alsolisteners to our podcast are activists?

(01:05:27):
And people who are doing thework, and I guess I'm wondering,
do you have any advice for them?
I think, you know, tapping out asneeded is really good, but I'm curious,
do you have any other thoughts?
For people who are navigatingthe space, navigating this time.
Well, if someone is an activist andthey're listening to this, then I am not

(01:05:48):
the one that needs to give them advice.
They are the ones leading the charge.
Maybe I have had my activist hat onback in whatever day, but like, I
don't know, like, the, the, even thebiography, it's like, yes, I have
been bringing attention to certainthings and intersections since 2008.

(01:06:08):
Does that make me an activist?
Does that make me someone thatactivists should look up to?
You're so humble.
Yeah.
I don't know.
So here's what I will say, assomeone who has been doing certain
kinds of work in bringing awareness.
Yeah.
I guess I, activating awareness.
So I guess I am an activist.
As, as someone who is tapped out rightnow and will eventually get back into it.
Um, like this coming panel,I'm still doing things.

(01:06:31):
So as like, maybe we should frame thisaround like new activists or like,
cause I would never dare try to advisesomeone older than me or someone who's
been doing it longer before you knew ouractivists out here, if you don't stand
for something, you will fall for anything.
Stand 10 toes down inwhatever it is that you.
Believe.

(01:06:52):
And then all of you activists andall of you people that are doing
all of these causes, we need asocial contract that says that
we're going to become more nuanced.
We're going to use the vocabulary that wethrow around in terms of intersectionality
and understanding and inclusion.
And we're going to act like the internetis not just a place where you can

(01:07:15):
say whatever you want and then dipout and like get mad or drag someone
or cancel them because you don'tagree with, like that has to stop.
We have to be able to talk to eachother and we need to be able to
agree to disagree if that's what itcomes to because the other person,
no matter how much you hate whatthey say, are going to exist anyway.
So if you need to get there to whereyou need to like be like, okay, now

(01:07:37):
I understand what you're about, thenyou need to do the work You actually
need to do the work to get therebefore you label someone as a thing.
Yeah.
I think is where my head is rightnow, because I saw this play.
It was called The Ally, andit's very timely right now.
It's at the PublicTheater in New York City.

(01:07:59):
I haven't heard of it.
What's it about?
It is about a college professor who signsa petition and then, he thinks it's going
to be harmless, but then it blossoms intothis big thing about college campuses.
It talks about like, like ideasaround college campuses, at least in

(01:08:22):
recent years, how like they'll Shutdown a speaker from coming because
they don't agree and it's like youcould invite the KKK To your college.
I'm not gonna be out there sayingthat they're not allowed to speak
because they're gonna speak somewhereI don't have to go to it and I can
encourage others not to go to it, butI can't force someone to be like No,

(01:08:43):
you shouldn't have them as a speaker.
At least that's, and maybeI, and you know what?
And, but now that I've put that out there.
Yeah.
So the people who would cancel meor drag me, I, I want to know why.
Because the people aregoing to exist anyway.
They're already going to be there anyway.
Are you saying that a universitywould amplify their voice?
I hope that people are not like thepeople that we're talking about.

(01:09:05):
I hope that society can get backto being not bandwagoning people.
They can hear grotesque and awful thingsand be like, that's grotesque and awful.
Let me not align myself with that.
And move on.
Yeah.
I mean, that goes to.
So responding to your advice, Ithink you laid down some good things,
but just working backwards, right?

(01:09:26):
I think it goes back to, are you buildingup your community or are you focused
on the people who you don't want to be?
Like, and oftentimes indoing the work, right?
We can get so hyper fixated on thesepeople that you're like, this is the
enemy or these are the bad people.
And let's say you have 10 hoursto dedicate to something and

(01:09:49):
all 10 hours went to that.
Your community is still suffering,your community is still struggling.
What have you done Right.
To uplift the community?
And people will be like,well, no, like these people.
Da da.
And but that flamboyance and that,that, that kind of rhetoric and
that kind of flashiness and thatkind of calling other people out
is what eats up the airwaves Yes.

(01:10:10):
And gets the shine.
Yeah.
Meanwhile, you could have been overhere collecting phone numbers and
connecting people to mutual aid.
Yes.
And sitting over thereand eating your cereal.
Making space, having discussions,creating safe spaces.
Instead of fighting peopleon the internet, like.
Yeah, and then stepping away.
And I like your point aboutstanding for something.

(01:10:31):
Because I feel that a lot of social mediais all about poking at people's egos.
And people who are socompelled to have to post.
It's because you felt like your,maybe your ego was challenged, right?
Or you were made to feel unsure aboutyourself and you respond and you react
and say, Oh, I have to follow this.

(01:10:52):
I have to post this.
But it's because we haven't done the work.
To fortify, what do we stand for, who arewe, what is the work that we do, right?
And let's say if we are for acertain community, and we're already
doing this work, then I don't needto have somebody messaging, Well,
are you not doing this, da da da?

(01:11:13):
Well If they're not on another organizer,or somebody doing the work, exactly.
I'm like, I wish someone wouldcome to me and be like, well,
you haven't talked about, well,then why don't you talk about it?
We both have, someone will DM meon Instagram and be like, well,
why haven't you spoken about it?
Let me check your profile real quick.
But you have a large followingand you could build one.
Yeah.

(01:11:33):
Why haven't you built one?
And why aren't you doing it?
Yeah.
That's very interesting becauseanother person, I won't name
them, but they have recentlybeen, so it's someone that I know.
And they know me, but um, they weresaying some really weird stuff.
online.
They took a stance where I was like,and I didn't just outright like be

(01:11:53):
like, but I am taking a break from them.
But basically, long story short, I mean,if I, you wouldn't know who to look up,
so I'm just going to keep it generic.
Yeah.
Keep it generic, but it's a veryspecific like, so because of the Israel
Palestine conflict, a particular actorhas gone on a med strike, he's HIV

(01:12:15):
positive, and he said that the theaterthat he works for has not released
a statement in support of Palestine.
And until they do, he's goingto stop taking his meds.
So that's his form of protest.
Now, another, a playwright who isvery popular in the, in the space,
like not the theater space, like thatparticular theater, but like in theater
in general, who's been very, uh,outspoken about Critiques on wokeness

(01:12:39):
and also standing at the intersectionof like blackness and queerness has
criticized this actor's protests becausethey have personal ties with people
who have passed away from HIV AIDS.
And so, I think, and that'sthe person I know, is the
person that's mad at the actor.

(01:13:00):
Uh, and so he was posting a lot,and I was like, why is he so, like,
Why is he going so hard on this?
Like, what is it?
Like, I can see that there's some traumathere, because he did lose a friend.
He wrote a play that won a Pulitzer Prize.
I can see the trauma there.
Why does this matter to you, howthis other person is protesting?
But at the end of the day, to keepit, you know, 100 and concise,

(01:13:25):
basically what I figured was thatthe person I know is mad that someone
else is leveraging their disabilityor their, their status to pressure
an organization to make a statement,a political statement on a thing.
Yeah.
That's his form of protest.

(01:13:45):
That's his health that heis putting on the line.
Right?
And if that's how he feels likeAnd also it's up to the theater
to decide whatever they want.
And it's also up to And it'sup to the theater to decide
what they want to do or not.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I'm just like sitting overhere like, but why are you mad
at the person that's protesting?
Like, you're mad because they'retrying to hijack the theater.

(01:14:06):
And this has nothingto do with them either.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know there's a connection there becauseof the way that the protest is happening,
but you are not HIV positive yourself.
You told me as such.
And Well, there's no, like, you're notpersonally affected by this either.
Well, I think the personal affection ismaybe because, again, going back, he has

(01:14:26):
had critiques on wokeness, quote unquote.
It's, he's more concerned about the factthat someone's leveraging something, an
oppression, To make someone say something.
I forgot why I brought that up, but Ifeel like that right there, what I just
said is the reason I brought it up.
That was the end goal was that, I guessit's, if you don't stand for something,
you'll fall for anything, right?
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:14:47):
And you have to stand forsomething to be unshakable, right?
At the end of the day,everyone can do anything.
The reality is on socialmedia, everything.
Everyone is doing who knowswhat the purpose is for either.
We're never going to know.
They're never going to tell us.
But you can tell.
You can sometimes tell.
Some of us who have been here cantell when you're a bandwagoner

(01:15:09):
and you're a charlatan.
Sometimes it's really easyto tell, you're right.
Because where are some of the voicesthat were so loud in 2020 now?
Yeah.
And why were a lot of them actors?
And, and, and then, and thenafter they got their roles.
Right.
Then all of a sudden that stuff wentaway, but you were all over the country
talking about, uh, this and that.

(01:15:30):
You were on ABC newsand doing all of this.
As soon as they got a few Marvel movies.
Some people that jumped into theactivist space were actors that
couldn't work in Broadway or wherever.
And that's shade, but yes, it's the truth.
Especially here in New York.
Let's, let's call a thing a thing.
That's a viral clip rightthere for your podcast.
Let's talk about it.

(01:15:50):
A lot of the activists in 2020 wereactors and not just, not just saying
that figuratively, but literallywere literal actors who worked in the
acting scene and couldn't find work.
So they jumped into activism.
I had to cross my legs on that one.
Uh, no, it's so true.

(01:16:10):
It, but you know what, we letthe evidence speak for itself.
The cream rises to the top.
So, a thing will be called a thing.
The thing will be called a thing.
But you know, it goes back to, right,if it really truly mattered, it
will manifest itself in some thing,some shape, form, a way, right?

(01:16:33):
Maybe they influenced somebody, right?
Maybe.
But there's so many people, andI love seeing people starting
different organizations.
and different projects and there'ssomething to be said about how it was so
moving to individuals to a point wherethey had to institutionalize it and that's

(01:16:53):
going to stick around and that's where Iwant to put more of my time, my energy,
been doing a lot more collaborative workhere in the city and I think my advice,
my like plus 3, 4, 5 to you is, um,just finding people who are also doing
work that you resonate with, right?

(01:17:14):
And then working together with um, Annaand I, it's like, our friendship, I
always appreciate having you on, I'malways here to support any of your stuff,
and I think that's how we get throughthese things, you know, and at the end
of the day, human connection with oneanother is so important, and if we can't
even sell that as a part of doing thiswork, I think it might be important to

(01:17:39):
ask, like, what is really What are youdigging your heels into the ground for?
Like, what is the reason, you know?
Do something.
Do something.
Like, do something.
And it doesn't even have tobe in the lane of activism.
But don't, don't just post.
No, don't post.
Right.
I mean, that doesn't help in eitherway, whether it's activism or not.
Like, we need to get backto doing things outside.

(01:18:00):
Yes.
We need to go back outside.
And for some of you listenersout there, you live in more rural
areas, and so that's not so easy.
It's not easy to make new friends, butto those of you But it's important.
But it's important.
Rural areas also deserve spaces like this.
They do, and so if you can findpeople that will drive over from
another county and meet at aregular, larger place, then do that.

(01:18:23):
Because I went back to Mississippilast week, and I got, I had a rental
car, and I was like, you know what,if I lived here, I would have to drive
20 miles, but that's not that bad.
Like, here in New York, youwait an hour to get two miles.
And out there, it's just like, okay, 20minute drive, and you're in the next city.
Organize something.
And again, it doesn't have to be activism.
Start up a D& D campaignor have a poker night.

(01:18:46):
Do something.
Get with the people andtalk about this stuff.
And then for those of us in New YorkCity or any other large city like
Steve, we need to do better aboutgetting together and doing stuff.
And it doesn't have to always, ifyou're tapped out, I am also tapped out.
We can just enjoy a thing.
So as for where we go from here, Iactually, I'm starting, I, one of the

(01:19:07):
things that I want to do, first of all,2024 has been going really well for me.
Yeah.
And it's from a glass half fullperspective because some bad things
in terms of like, things not panningout the way that I wanted them to have
happened in these three months so far.
Yeah.
But I'm counting my blessingsand the good things.
So I got that PAX East panel approved.
Which is a big deal.
It is a big deal.

(01:19:28):
Now, I'm also trying to makethe New York City video game
course, which that fell through.
I dumped like 400 into hiring anaccompanist, running ads, and,
but it's a learning experience.
Like a lot of people signed up, butthen when you email them to confirm that
they can come on the day that you saidit was going to be when they signed up,
all of a sudden people are radio silent.

(01:19:49):
I'm like, okay.
I figured it out, because I had arespectable number for something
as niche as a video game choir.
Like, 26 people said that theywanted to come, and then only 5
were able to commit to the time.
And I'm like, okay, IBut how many do you need?
Can't you do it with 5?
Do like an acappella group.
I had I ordered an accompanistand everything, so like Yeah.
I'm pay I paid for the venue, whichwas like 200, and it was empty.

(01:20:12):
I didn't I like, canceledthe night before.
I'm not about to show up and look stupid,like Some of these TikTok creators at
these events where they have a millionfans and then nobody comes to their booth.
It's a lesson learned,but it's an attempt.
And not everybody has 500 dollars todrop on the thing, but do something.
Get together with people.
It doesn't have to cost money.
It doesn't have to cost money.
But if you've got it and you're willing toinvest or try to do something, like, let's

(01:20:37):
try to do things in real life, I guess.
And it doesn't have to be what's trendy.
Right.
It can be creating space foreach other, for other folks.
With similar experiences, youThird spaces are very much needed.
Yeah, exactly.
Okay, some quick questions.
What's inspiring you lately?

(01:20:59):
Lately, what's inspiring me?
Hmm.
There's this film that I watched onthe way back from Japan on the plane.
It's by, uh, the director'slast name is Kore Eda.
Uh, and it's called Monster,and it's on Apple TV now.
It was not available for streamingwhen I saw it on the plane.

(01:21:22):
And I started it like anhour before we landed.
It's like a 15 hour flight, andI started it before we landed.
So I didn't finish it.
And then it came out in likeNovember of that year, and like,
I saw it six times in theaters.
It's that good.
So this, this kind of, um, if you seethe movie, then you'll understand why
I had to watch it so many times becauseit's one of these things that unfolds.

(01:21:45):
And so what's inspiringme is this particular.
movie and this director and howhe does a lot of his films and the
whole Rashomon style of storytelling.
Yeah.
Well, that's inspiring me and that'swhat's making me think like, I
need to be more creative this year.
Oh, I love it.
I know you dropped a few lessons,but is there any one last lesson

(01:22:05):
or what is your lesson and lasttakeaway for today's session?
Oh, gosh, you're right.
I have said so much.
But, um, yeah, I'm gonna goback to stand for something.
I think that's a good one.
Again, stand for somethingor you'll fall for anything.
And at this point, my mindset isyou still have to wear a mask if

(01:22:27):
you're sick, and I'm high on NyQuil.
So I've been wearing a mask when Igo out, and I'm about to go out now.
But, um, yeah.
It's not like it was in 2020, 2021, 2022.
I'm not going to say we'reout of the pandemic yet.
COVID is going to be a thing thatwe live with for a very long time.
But now we can come out of our shells.

(01:22:49):
And it's going to take some peoplelonger, but try to find activities
to undo whatever that was.
and whatever society had starteddoing in 2020 and beyond.
I'm not saying that the accountabilityculture was a bad thing.
I'm saying the flippantness,the quick to cut off the.

(01:23:13):
And especially for own community members.
I think it's a very different narrative.
Especially for wherever you are.
How can people find you?
Slash, do you have any recentprojects you want to highlight?
Well, on social media, I amJonah Sahn on all the platforms.
J O N A H S A H.

(01:23:35):
N, uh, so Instagram, TikTok, and,uh, yeah, that the project is what I
mentioned, the video game course issomething that I really want to make
happen so much to the point that Irecorded a video and made, uh, and
poured like 200 worth of ads into it.
And a lot of people saw it, like peoplesaw it and they were interested, but when

(01:23:59):
it came to time to commit, they were not.
So we'll, we'll revisitthat after the panel.
We're going to try to rampit up through the summer.
I'm going to do a lot of studyingon how to like, get people.
I've been going to other choir things.
I've joined a choir, actually.
You know, I had a lot of traumaaround that in the early 2020s.
But I've joined a new choir, and it'sawesome, and then there are other choir

(01:24:22):
things that happen around the citythat are much less commitment time
oriented, and I've also done those.
So, getting back intogoing outside, basically.
Nice.
Yeah.
AC Oh, and I'm starting a newpodcast, The Boys Are Black In Town.
with Loki Karuna.
It's a video podcast, and it's on myYouTube page, which is Jonas san as well.

(01:24:44):
If it gets, if we start doing moreand it gets bigger, then, you know,
we'll cut out its own space for it.
But for now, it's just onmy, uh, YouTube platform.
And it's called The Boys Are Blackin Town because I am Black and Asian.
Um, I also bring a lot ofAsian perspective to that.
What's interesting to me there, andI should have, we should have talked
about this way earlier, But it's funnyhow, like, I'm comfortable in doing a

(01:25:08):
whole podcast about being Black, butI am Black and Asian, but I don't,
I'm not comfortable doing any kind ofpodcast that would be like Asian-ness.
Just Asian-ness.
Maybe that's something to explore.
Maybe it's something to lean into.
But I will appear on podcastslike this that are about an Asian
community, and I am comfortablewith my Asian-ness that way.

(01:25:28):
Because you are hosting.
Yeah.
What does that say?
I don't know, actually.
Maybe 2025 revelation.
Maybe I just, just claim myAsian-ness, and if anybody
has anything to say about it.
This is, this is, this is the episodewhen Jonathan claims Asian ness.
Moment of realizing.
I own space in the Asian realm as well.

(01:25:51):
And so it'll be funny.
It's like, people will listen.
They'll be like, Oh, he's Asian.
They'll see a picture.
He's not Asian.
Well, at least that's what I wouldthink they would say, but, um.
And then for those of you listening, uh,definitely leave us a rating and review
if you enjoyed this episode with Jonathan.
This is how our friends,our folks in our community.

(01:26:14):
Discover and listen to our episodes.
We'd love to hear your thoughts.
And also, if you have a moment,feel free to visit our website
at yellowglitterpodcast.
com to learn more about ourepisode, views, show notes,
transcriptions, and all that jazz.
And we'll also include links toJonathan and all of his projects
in our show notes as well.

(01:26:35):
And if you've missed previousepisodes, definitely take a
look at our history of shows.
and take a look at our recentepisodes with Jonathan.
And I always love having you onthe podcast to talk about work,
talk about life, talk aboutjust how we're navigating it.
And I do really see, since the veryfirst day we've met up, recorded the

(01:26:58):
podcast, and how we've navigated andjust um, evolved as individuals, I'm
really excited and proud to see howwe've navigated and grown through it.
And so I just want to saythank you, Jonathan, for being
on the podcast once again.
Really appreciate having you.

(01:27:18):
Thank you so much, Stephen.
I look forward to being here again when,uh, Mike Curato releases his next book.
Yes.
And we can talk about it.
Yes, we will.
I feel like since it was announced,we can talk about it, but like,
we can't give away anything.
But we No.
That's, that's the thing that we weretalking about the last time I was here.
Yeah.
When I was like, thething we can't talk about.

(01:27:39):
He was like, oh, you werelike, oh, tell me more.
And I was like, girl, you are also yeah.
You're involved.
But it's announced, but we,we can't say anything yet.
We await everyone to enjoy the splendor.
of all of our little inputs.
That's going to be very exciting.
And that's gonna, that's goingto allow me to claim that space

(01:28:01):
that we just talked about, right?
Yes.
Maybe that's how it's going to happen.
Yeah.
And with that, uh, for all of ourlisteners, hope you enjoyed this
episode and we hope your rest of yourday, weekend, rest of the month can
be a little bit more mindful with someof our input and insights from today.

(01:28:24):
With that, episode's now closed.
Hope to see you again next time.
Bye!