August 6, 2024 • 64 mins
This episode we're joined by guest Leslie Xia. Leslie is a queer Chinese American graphic designer and art director currently working at Invesco. They have worked at Fast Company, Vice News, and Men's Health to Millie Magazine, focusing on finance for women, and finally moved to Invesco.
In this episode, we chat about:
- The importance of personal finance, especially for queer and Asian communities
- Balancing Creativity and Practicality
- the importance of authenticity in content creation
- Ethical considerations in journalism and storytelling
- Maintaining equity and representation in content and design
- Embracing family support systems and community aid
- break taboos around discussing money within the community to foster mutual growth
You can find our guest at:
- Instagram: @memoirsofagayxia
- Website: www.lesliexia.com
- X: @thelesliexia
You can follow me at:
- Instagram: @stevenwakabayashi
- YouTube: @stevenwakabayashi
- Subscribe to my weekly newsletter: yellowglitterpodcast.substack.com
- Visit our website yellowglitterpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leslie Xia (00:00):
For me, growing up in a Chinese household,
community was so strong.
So, as I grew up, we were alwayssurrounded by community, relatives,
constantly, like, parties, gatherings.
The way my family survived waseveryone would chip in for, say,
someone has a business idea.
(00:20):
Someone wants to start a supermarket.
I feel like everyone was constantlysupporting each other to survive.
Now, for us, we have chosen family.
We have our communities where wesurvive through mutual aid, but.
When it comes down to like retirement orour lives later down the line, we need
to create a foundation for ourselves,create that like the idea of the nest
(00:42):
egg, the safety net, and it starts withlike learning about personal finance
and how, how to save, how to budget.
And then have it grow from there.
If you want to help others,you have to like, have your
own foundation set up first.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:16):
Hi everyone.
My name is Steven Wakabayashi andyou're listening to Yellow Glitter,
perspectives from queer Asian creativesand change makers making impact.
This episode we're joined by anextra special guest, Leslie Xia.
Leslie Xia, they them, is a queerChinese American graphic designer and art
director currently working at Invesco.
They have previously worked atDotDash Meredith, Men's Health,
(01:39):
Vice News, and Fast Company.
Their personal work focuses on race,gender, identity, and social justice.
They have received recognition from theFinancial Communication Society, the
Society of Publication Designers, theNewswoman Club Front Page Awards, Print
Magazine Regional Design Awards, andFast Company Innovation by Design Awards.
(02:00):
Xia graduated from MICA, MarylandInstitute College of Art in Baltimore.
Welcome to the show.
Leslie Xia (02:10):
Thank you for having me.
Very excited.
Steven Wakabayashi (02:13):
Yes.
We had you recently on as apanelist for our book club at
our non profit QTBIPOC Design.
It was so amazing to haveyou as a part of the session.
And just for context for listeners,we brought Leslie on to talk
about their book, which was justthis beautiful culmination of
(02:36):
all these different perspectives.
About 12, 13 authors.
It was a good number of thembringing different perspectives
into the book around the topicof design and design equity.
Real quick, before we get started andget into the meat of our episode, let's
talk a little bit about your book anda little bit about your work there.
(02:58):
If you want to share with listeners.
Your part in the book.
What was that like?
Yeah,
Leslie Xia (03:04):
so it was during I think 2019 when Ellen Lupton first reached out
to me She was one of my professors backat MICA and I feel like was one of the
people who like really helped mentor alot of students So post graduation she
knew that I did a lot of work on campusand for about like social justice themes
(03:28):
and was very active, even post grad.
So when she had the idea to startthis book, she reached out to me
initially, like to interview me forlike, cause within the book, we have
a few interviews of, um, designers whoare currently working in the industry.
And when we took a look at the booktogether, I, I asked if I could...
(03:51):
take a read just to see if thereare any parts that I felt like
could be improved upon and myinitial my initial thought was hmm.
I think this book requiresmany more voices and she was
completely receptive to it.
She completely understood whyand my reasoning behind it.
So then she took the steps to reach outto folks who she knew would make the,
(04:17):
the reading experience of the book andalso just the, the book as a resource
much more layered and much more helpful.
There's such a wide range of identitiesand experiences and like how to, How
we all navigate within the world.
So as like the, the book progressedin the development, I think.
It was so nice and welcoming to haveEllen be so receptive and I am very
(04:43):
glad for like the final product.
And sometimes I hope, I hope andI wish and I dream of like the
expanded versions of the book.
It has been translated intoSpanish, Portuguese, Italian,
and I'm maybe in the future therewill be like Asian languages too.
But yeah, I think it's, I'm so likeproud and you know, happy that this.
(05:07):
book like exists in the world.
Yeah.
It's also, it's like so muchpotential there too, as well.
Steven Wakabayashi (05:14):
Yeah.
Maybe there's a part two bringing inmore new perspectives and update to it.
Right.
Leslie Xia (05:20):
Right.
I wish.
Yeah.
Hopefully, maybe.
Yeah.
I think like, that is a good idea though.
I feel like, you know, theworld is constantly changing.
Like even now, like the conversationsaround like AI, like how can we
now think about it in througha lens of like, how can...
this now change the design industryand what does that mean for people
(05:45):
who are entering the industry?
Like I think there's yes so much so much.
Steven Wakabayashi (05:49):
Yeah, I think the landscape of also design and the role
of design is changing and a lot ofus think design as we're simply, you
know, putting something pretty on thescreen or on the wall or design as just
like an aesthetics thing, or design assomething simply, uh, pushing pixels
(06:13):
and making interfaces you use every day.
But a big part of the teachings that wehave over on the non profit side, we talk
about design as a challenge of usability.
Design is really needed.
Creativity is needed.
To rethink the way we invite other peopleto use products to show up in spaces, and
(06:33):
the example we give is something as simpleas a doorknob had to be designed, right,
had to be created, and basically all thestuff around us, whether it's the cars and
the trains we take each day or the spaceswe inhabit, the tools that we use, devices
that we use, Um, and even the screensthat we're talking in right now has all
(06:56):
been conceptualized from creativity.
And so that's some thingsthat really inspire me in the
work that I do and keep going.
And maybe for yourself, you know,going into the work that you've
done, can you share a little bitabout what are you doing right
now and maybe how you got into it?
Leslie Xia (07:16):
Yeah, currently I'm at Invesco and I'm on their creative services team
and work on like branding, activations,media campaigns, have a great team.
I feel like this is the first timewhere my team I feel like at home
with, which I feel like is so rareand I'm so like grateful for that.
(07:39):
Before I was in final financial services,I feel like my entire journey through
my career has been like very editorialfocused or like news media focused.
I started off, like, I've alwaysbeen interested in magazines
when I graduated college.
Like that was my main goal was toget into the editorial industry.
(08:01):
So I started off at Fast CompanyMagazine, which is like a tech
and business focused magazine.
Their iPad edition and also on theirprint edition and also on their
website and had a lot of fun there.
I, you know, I was had so many mentorsin the beginning of my career through
Fast Company and also through likethe Society of Publication Designers.
But I transitioned from there toVice, to work on Vice News, primarily
(08:25):
on their website, it was vicenews.
com, that was like a supplementaryto their daily news show on
HBO, and I learned a lot there.
It was, they moved extremely fast.
I also learned a lot about the ethics ofjournalism, the ethics of photojournalism.
And just like my role as a designerand art director on Mac, curating what
(08:51):
content accompanies like extremelyheavy stories and my role in like
showing faces, showing trauma, showingdifferent elements of like these
stories and like how to shape the story.
So it becomes like an easyday to receive by readers.
(09:16):
But also still like humanizing peoplethrough these like experiences as well.
And then while I was there, Ifeel like I made the decision
to want to take a step back.
Um, and then wanted to, wantingto go back into editorial design.
I feel like news, news design isso important, but I think it was a
(09:38):
bit heavy on my heart a little bit.
And I transitioned back intoeditorial through Men's Health.
And I feel like I learned how towork really fast at Men's Health.
We had a monthly magazine and as theAssociate Art Director, we were producing
so much content so quickly all the time.
(09:59):
It was like a 96 page magazine andmy team was small but we were mighty.
But I learned a lot about like, ArtDirection when it comes to like,
uh, working with photographers andillustrators all up there and sort of
formulating my own ethos around hiringand who I want to work with and who I
(10:19):
want to bring onto the page and createplatforms for when it comes to like,
illustration, and then also thinking verycritically about how we want to shape
these stories through illustration, likehow to shape different concepts and ideas.
But I feel like with each of one ofmy jobs through my career, like feel
like I've learned something thatbecame like very formative for me.
(10:43):
But then I guess like the, the throughline that ran from all of these jobs
was also like, while I was learning,I was also like learning money and
learning how to save that money, I guess.
And.
I became very interestedin like personal finance.
So then when a job posting for amagazine called Millie popped up,
(11:09):
Millie is a finance magazine for women.
I was like, Hmm, this is like the perfectintersection of the things I'm interested
in, like editorial design, coupled withlike learning how to save and invest.
And I was like, okay, I wouldlike to join this team also.
Probably also because I felt like I'vealways been interested in like service or
(11:34):
whenever I create personal work wantingit to serve either like a younger version
of myself or like who am I trying to likehelp educate or like provide insight to
and I was like okay like Millie magazinewould be perfect because this is also
something I'd be interested in like theircontent so I joined their team and Also,
(12:00):
I like, I feel like I learned so muchthrough this job, I think partly about
like the politics of like corporate life.
It was at the peak of the pandemicwhen I joined, and I feel like that
was such like a learning experiencefor everyone who, who, everyone working
(12:22):
in like corporate at the time, orjust, I mean, the entire world, right?
I, but from Millie, I was like deep infinance world and then, you know, And
then transitioned over to Invesco after,because I was like, this feels natural.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (12:43):
Yeah.
I feel like there's somuch to unpack there.
Um, maybe just going one at a time.
Speaking about Vice News, Iactually really love the work that
had been published by Vice News,especially as it pertains to those,
like you mentioned, tough topics.
I had watched a ton of their stuff onYouTube, the longer form videos, and
(13:07):
especially as it pertains to, why don'twe pause here for a minute and talk about,
but this duality between social media,right, where everything is trying to be
like this 10, 50 second bite size, reel,and the duality between longer form media,
documentaries, and even books, right,that go in depth into these tough topics.
(13:28):
And I think we're in such aweird era now with media that,
you know, it's just a headline.
People aren't reading even thearticles that are behind the headlines.
And a lot of misinformationis spreading quite rapidly.
You see statistics going up and up andup because people aren't actually going
(13:51):
into the complexity of the issues.
We're rather trying to extrapolatethis surface level, you know, whether
it's rage, anger, sadness, contemptthat comes out from it, which in turn
turns into like clickbaity material.
Just curious your experience there,um, you mentioned a little bit about
(14:12):
being equitable with our directionand the designs and the work and...
curating content to support thematerials in an equitable fashion.
What is that like?
What does that mean?
Leslie Xia (14:27):
Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of like communicating with the journalists.
What is the root of the story?
What are we trying to say?
Who are we trying to represent?
And I think with news, it also, theimpartiality of it, I feel like it gets
hard because oftentimes there's more thanone way to like look at something, right?
(14:50):
And your role is to try to sort of helpdefine and make things more easy to view.
But I think at the same time, it'shard because, because of the fact
that, especially if like, we don'tcome from the specific places
(15:12):
that these stories are being told,you have to be very, very clear.
You have to be very, you have to tell thestories from like, the eyes of the people.
And I feel like our correspondentswho go like feet, boots on the
ground are, you know, interviewingfolks, putting their lives at stake.
(15:33):
Like I've always commended them for thatand it's such a hard job, extremely hard.
I feel like I often, like wheneverour correspondents would come back
from literal war zones where theywere wearing like bulletproof vests.
Like we had a cage in the officefloor of the bulletproof vest.
I And I feel like every day goinginto the office was very humbling,
(15:57):
knowing the role that we all had inmaking sure that the narratives that
we tell were true, making sure that thestories did everyone justice, right?
So humbling, but also so intimidating.
I felt like, yeah, every daywas like a new challenge.
(16:18):
I think such a learningexperience as well, yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (16:21):
I think that's a little bit synonymous
with also your work, right?
The design book that you recentlywritten, where you have to bring in
all these perspectives into the mix.
And at the end of the day, Wherewe toe the line between what is
performative, to be frank, and what istruly representative, we at the end of
(16:42):
the day have to bring other people up.
And if people aren't on the stage,we have to get them on stage.
And especially with Vice News, what Idid really love and commend is a lot
of the media was shot on site, right?
It was right then and there.
(17:04):
They weren't focused on makingpersonalities like the newscasters,
these people, but really they'rejust like voiceovers or they're just
always in the background and you'reseeing all of the footage and content
and materials shedding light ontowhat exactly is kind of the topic.
But also like the design and artdirection, everything was beautiful.
(17:26):
It was like, it was so
good.
Leslie Xia (17:29):
The Vice News graphics team was like top tier.
So good.
Steven Wakabayashi (17:33):
It was good.
It was good.
It was so good.
Um, and even like the videography,cinematography, I was like, dang,
this is really, really good.
And then going also into yourpublication experience, um, all these
different magazines that you worked at.
I mean, let's sit here for a second.
(17:56):
Um, I'm just curious, especiallyas it pertains to content, right?
And churning out so muchcontent as a part of the work.
I think especially for creators.
I think that's always a challenge, right?
Of like, whether it's perfectionistmentality, or whether it's just
like, maybe imposter syndrome.
(18:16):
Like all these different layers, right?
That hold us back fromgetting work out there.
I'm just curious.
I know you had mentioned when youwere sharing a little bit about that
experience, this whole notion oflike, it really taught you how to
move fast and just like get thingsout there, especially as a creative.
What was that experience really likeand what did it really teach you
(18:38):
about finding this balance and dualitybetween perfection and also speed?
Leslie Xia (18:44):
Yeah, I think, I guess I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll speak about it
through like the lens of like, likeMillie for example, since I was also
helping to like write stories when itcomes to content, like a lot of it.
You have to think about whether or notit's like relevant and then also like
if it's authentic to the readers andis it authentic to your own experiences
(19:04):
as well like what you're trying toinform readers of so like for me at
the time like thinking about how socialmedia influencers make money like how
can we teach people about differenttiers of that if they wanted to learn
how to do that or an example is...
we had like a Thanksgiving dinnerstory and I remember saying
(19:27):
like, let's change the lens.
Can we hire indigenous chefs tocreate recipes for the story?
Having the power to like shape contentin the way that feels most authentic
to you, but also important, I guess?
Ever since, I guess, when I workedon Taylor, which was my queer
(19:52):
fashion magazine from college.
When you have the power to shape thenarrative and write the stories, like
thinking about what is most helpfuland what guides people more, I guess.
Yeah, and I think a lot of that, I guess,was also when I first started interning
(20:14):
at magazines in college, like, I wassuper interested in masculine fashion.
So I interned at like, um, EssentialOil Magazine, Esquire Magazine, read
a lot of like GQ to sort of teachmyself about what I wanted to learn.
(20:35):
And I think in turn, I was like,afterwards, I was like, okay.
Now it's my turn to create content.
What do I want to teach people?
What would, what would they want to learn?
Steven Wakabayashi (20:46):
Yeah.
I'm also starting to see a beautifulthread with all of your work.
That's like all multi layered,all related around stories
and how we bringing people up.
Sharing their stories, you know, andI guess for your story too, like,
I love the work that you're doingin the magazine, bringing up these
(21:08):
perspectives and then bringing you intonow the finance industry, this whole
notion of personal finance as reallyimportant facet of our communities.
Can you shed a little bitmore on what does that mean
when you say it is important?
(21:29):
Why is it important for queer folks,queer communities, queer Asian
communities to even care about finance?
Leslie Xia (21:36):
Yeah, I mean, at the root of it is survival, right?
Steven Wakabayashi (21:39):
Mhmmm
Leslie Xia (21:41):
I think especially like living in New York City, it's so expensive.
And then also thinking aboutthings like retirement.
For me growing up, in a Chinesehousehold, community was so strong.
My grandparents and their generation,they immigrated to New York in the 80s.
So, The majority of my dad's side ofthe family, they're all in New York.
(22:05):
So as I grew up, we were alwayssurrounded by community relatives,
constantly like parties, gatherings.
But after leaving home, I feel like havingto find that sense of community as well
and also supporting each other, right?
(22:25):
I feel like.
The way my family survived waseveryone would chip in for, say,
someone has a business idea, someonewants to start a supermarket, someone
needs money for their pregnancy.
I feel like everyone was constantlysupporting each other to survive.
(22:46):
But now for us, we have chosen family.
We have our communities where we survivethrough mutual aid, but when it comes down
to like retirement or our lives later downthe line, we need to create a foundation
for ourselves, create that, like theidea of the nest egg, the safety net.
(23:10):
And it starts with like learningabout personal finance and how,
how to save, how to budget, andthen have it grow from there.
Cause there's that one, the sayingwhere it's like, you have to like
buckle your own, or what is it,when the plane, on the plane, it's
like, oh, you have to put your mask
Steven Wakabayashi (23:29):
on.
You have to put your mask on, yeah.
Where you
Leslie Xia (23:31):
can help other people, like that, I feel like that is so real when
it comes to personal finance as well.
You know how it's, it's hard to surviveto begin with, you know, but if you
want to help others, you have to likehave your own foundation set up first.
Steven Wakabayashi (23:48):
Yeah, it's interesting too, because we live in a society here
specifically as Asian Americans in theWest where we have a government that
frankly really doesn't provide servicesto people unless you already come
with money to a certain degree, right?
(24:08):
We don't provide free housing,we don't provide free food, we
don't provide free healthcare.
And everything in this capitalist economyis driven based largely due to the, the
amount of money somebody has, how fastsomebody is able to make money, right?
And even when we look at allthese publications, right,
(24:30):
like who's on the cover?
If you're wealthy here in America,you're going to get on covers.
You're going to be renownedfor just even being wealthy.
And we have this weird.
thing where money somehow is
like on the extreme end, power, right?
And status, but I guess going back tothe other end about how are we surviving?
(24:55):
How are we caring for each other?
How are we providing communal care?
I think finance is really,really important, especially
as a language we all hold.
I think the challenge, right,is it's a very icky topic.
Because capitalism is hurtingus, but yet we need to kind
(25:15):
of swim within it to survive.
I'm just curious, how are younavigating that as like this interest
of personal finance, this topicthat clearly isn't serving so many
folks in our communities, right?
Queer people or Asian folks,specifically with Asian folks also facing
homelessness in higher rates acrossall the different ethnicities, right?
(25:39):
Finance is hurting us.
But also it's such a necessity.
How does it look like tonavigate that for yourself?
Leslie Xia (25:48):
Yeah.
I mean, for me, it's like justtalking about it as much as I can.
I feel like whenever my friends or familylike have questions about money, the more
you talk about it, the more people learn.
Over communicating is so important.
Like, I feel like I, I understandthat, you know, like the
money is the root of evil.
(26:09):
I feel like people immediately have aconnotation of you if you're viewed,
perceived as wealthy or perceived aslike making more money than other people.
And that's so real.
I totally get it.
But I also want to push everyoneto try to like understand like why
and also how it's not just aboutlike earning, it's about saving.
Steven Wakabayashi (26:35):
And you know, maybe the thing I'll add there too is I
think there's a lot of shame around it.
Leslie Xia (26:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi: There's a lot of shame. (26:41):
undefined
There's a lot of fear.
And going back to like, you know,like Buddhist philosophies, they
always talk about it's a balance.
You know, nothing in lifeis ever black and white.
We also don't live in a societywhere if you don't talk about
it, you don't action on it, likeyou're going to somehow survive.
That's not going to happen.
But also on the other end, amassing allof this is also not going to save you.
(27:03):
All right.
Like all these like billionairesare creating these bunkers and
God knows where it's like at theend, like it's, we have to figure
out how to survive as a community.
But going back to your point, I thinkalso sometimes like specifically in
Asian communities, there's a lot offear, hesitancy, uh, shame around it.
Right.
(27:24):
Growing up, yeah, it's hard to talk about.
Leslie Xia (27:27):
Yeah, like my parents right now are both trying to figure
out like what retirement looks like.
Like my mom doesn't have retirementand I feel like I'll probably
have to be helping her through it.
But that's so real, right?
I feel like that's what inAsian communities, it's like
all about supporting each other.
But I think with like American culture,it's like the idea of the nuclear family,
(27:50):
it's like so much more independent.
And that's why people like think aboutretirement as like, like a me, me, me.
Like I need to save for myretirement, but it really is.
I think for us, you know, how do we createit so we are all able to, to thrive?
Steven Wakabayashi (28:08):
Yeah, that's so real.
Question for you.
What are some things that you'velearned that have been really kind
of like aha moments for you in termsof personal finance specifically?
Leslie Xia (28:25):
I think whenever I talk to people about retirement,
whenever I throw out the numberthat you're supposed to have.
By the time you're a certain age tolike be able to retire, people are
always like, oh my gosh, I mean, forme, like, for me, the number is 1.
5 million and people will be like,that's crazy, why is it that much money?
(28:51):
And the idea is like for the 20 yearsafter you hit 65, you need at least
like a certain amount of money tosurvive yearly posts at that age.
Like when I first learnedthat, I was like, that's crazy.
How?
(29:11):
And I think, you know, little thingslike that is people don't tell
you until you like, Look at like apersonal finance book or like have
to like sort of face that I guess
Steven Wakabayashi (29:25):
Actually, I don't think a lot of people know because I
don't talk about a lot either I'm reallyI love personal finance to me like the
whole concept of personal finance ismaking sure the work that you do and the
money that you make you create the maximumopportunity potential with it, you know?
And I
(29:45):
think one challenge is that I'vebeen learning more and more recently
is this whole notion about like,spending money and this whole notion
of like having status by, you know,having all these lavish things.
One of the years, I actuallywent to study a ton of Buddhism
(30:06):
at different monasteries.
And the arc here is, as a part ofBuddhism and for folks who want
to become like monks or nuns, theydo this practice of renunciation.
Renunciation is this giving up ofevery material goods and possession,
because the whole belief and concept,right, of Buddhism is this belief that
(30:28):
desire and want create unhappiness.
And the way that they've kind of cometo the need of renunciation, giving up
material goods, especially capital andpersonal private possessions, is these
things create wanting and desire, right?
So monks and nuns have to give up alltheir finances and they either donate
(30:49):
it to the monastery or give it to otherfolks in their communities, but basically
they live in these, you know, enclaveswhere they practice communal care, right?
They, they, they sweep, they clean, theytake care of the monasteries, they feed
each other and they've created like kindof economy and community that is very
(31:09):
different from these capitalistic norms.
But anyway, going back to the point Ithought the practice of renunciation
was so interesting because when Ipracticed it for the better of like a
year, I was like, what could I give up?
Instantly, I was starting to seethis thread of how shopping and all
(31:30):
of these things that we're, we're,we're told across like social media
channels, all these things is actuallyhurting our own personal finance.
Right?
Yeah.
Right.
This, this notion that like, Oh, I have tohave the latest gadgets, the latest iPhone
and phones are costing like 1, 500 now.
It's like, That's right, Leslie.
(31:50):
Like they used to cost likea hundred bucks, right?
200 bucks.
And we're speeding into this placewhere like, I see a lot of people just
going into massive amounts of debt, youknow, because of the spending habits.
Um, latest statistics show that theseafter pay programs like Affirm and also
(32:10):
Klarna, Gen Z are missing payments.
They just make it so easy foryounger generations to use.
Their social media, not like, notsocial media, sorry, social security
number to then buy and make a palletfor like 60 bucks and then are aware
that the interest rates on those areway higher than credit cards, 30%, you
(32:35):
know, and it's just so predatorial.
Coming back to personal financeis, um, what I've been seeing more
and more, especially social mediaplatforms getting more integrated,
tightly integrated with commerce.
is that to even have personal finance, wehave to get a hold of how we're spending
money and also how we're saving, right?
Leslie Xia (32:58):
Yeah, no, like the idea of lifestyle inflation, more money wanting
to, to spend more, the idea of likekeeping up with the Joneses, like so real.
I feel like for me, wanting to get acar when I absolutely do not need a car.
And like you were saying about socialmedia and finance, like the fact that
(33:18):
TikTok has TikTok shot or Instagramhas the Instagram, it just makes it
so much easier for people to spendwithout knowing about credit or
knowing how it'll affect them later on.
It's, it's so, so dangerous.
It's such a slippery slope, forpeople who just don't look at
(33:39):
their credit card balances, right?
Like people who think that.
As long as you're makingmoney, it'll catch up.
Then it doesn't catch up if you areoverspending or just being in New
York, like, like New York City, whenyou go outside and go to dinner,
it ends up being 200 at a time.
(33:59):
It adds up so fast or like Uber rides.
I think it's like, yeah, capitalismmakes it so easy for people to spend
money and it's so, it's so dangerous.
I feel like for me, like, I, I'm socritical of like the way I spend.
Steven Wakabayashi (34:14):
You have to be.
Leslie Xia (34:15):
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (34:16):
Yeah.
Leslie Xia (34:17):
I'm, I'm, I feel like I'm always nagging like my, my sister
or my partner to like spend less.
And yeah, I mean, it's, I thinkthat's also just like so deeply rooted
in like the way I was raised too.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (34:33):
Yeah, it's one thing that has helped me, this
adage that there's two, right?
Like personal finance I think issimply spend less than you make, right?
If you're spending more, takingon debt, you're taking on credit
or debt through credit cards.
(34:54):
To get the spending that farexceeds, right, where you're
at, I think you're gonna see.
You're just digging a holethat it's really hard.
Our financial systems are so predatorial
in
a way that I feel like any debt withinterest, it's just, you keep paying
(35:14):
it and it just doesn't go away, right?
You hear these stories.
of people with student loans andliterally after having paid the amount
of student loans off they still haveif not the same amount of balance.
Sometimes some students report onsocial media that I've seen they
actually have more that they'veaccrued because of interest and
I'm like how is this possible?
(35:34):
But the other adage that I have isthere's always going to be something
more expensive, always going tobe something more flashy, there's
always going to be something moreluxury, nicer, than what you have...
Undeniably, undoubtedly, you know, andthat there comes a point where we just
have to put a stake in the ground, youknow, and say, this is nice, right?
(35:58):
This is comfortable.
And I think going back to also theconcept of mindfulness, I think doing
that allows us to appreciate things more,be in the moment with some of our stuff.
And like you mentioned aboutrestaurants, yes, like easily some
restaurants you go to, I, like, it'sone of my biggest pet peeves, you go
to a restaurant, right, and you don'tpick it, some other person picks it.
(36:21):
And they're just ringingup that tab so quickly.
And then one time
Leslie Xia (36:26):
Three dollars?
Like, why?
Steven Wakabayashi (36:29):
Yeah, and then they're like four rounds of drinks,
like bottles of wine, and thenthey're like, okay, let's split.
Each person pays like three, four hundred.
I'm like, what?
Like, this is crazy.
But personally, you know, I foundin New York City some restaurants
that I love taking people to.
And that are also budget friendly,the food is also good, the people
(36:52):
who work there are great, and for me,those things are so nice, you know,
and I think, I think it also reallyhumbles, myself and also all of us
to just appreciate and I hate sayingsmall things but valuable things, right?
And then value is thenquantified simply by numbers.
(37:13):
Also, how many times have we gone toa restaurant that you, like, it was
expensive and it was also gross, you know?
Like
Leslie Xia (37:19):
Worse than bad and you had to pay a lot
of money.
Steven Wakabayashi (37:23):
Right.
Or like any things that you buy, right?
Whether it's clothes or whetherit's material goods and you're
just like, it just fell apart.
Leslie Xia (37:32):
I feel like, so like, I'm not ashamed to tell people to
buy dupes of, like, luxury goods.
Cause at the end of the day, alsooftentimes the factories that
are outsourced to produce thoseluxury goods create the same dupe.
Steven Wakabayashi (37:50):
Yeah, yeah, and I think right now you're also starting to
see luxury fashion making cuts within theproduction line, right, in the facilities.
And actually, what's not is some ofthe dupes are even better quality.
Like, it's, It's all a partof a perception, right?
(38:12):
It's like the marketing, likethe influencer marketing, right?
And who they're putting these productson that somehow you think because it's at
the Met Gala or on the red carpet, right?
These designers.
are creating all these products.
Mind you, they're doing it more selfright for media, PR, marketing, and
(38:33):
all these people see these brands, it'slike, oh, wow, this is so, you know,
amazing, and the price warrants it.
And more often than not, they'rejust, also poorly made, you know, uh,
unequitable conditions, overseas, um,low wage workers working tirelessly for
hours and hours and hours, you know.
(38:55):
And there's another eye opening, I forget,um, if it was an article or like a social
media post, but there's this notion thatthis one person was articulating where
even like luxury fashion isn't aimedat wealthy people, but it's actually
aimed at lower income people as this.
(39:16):
means of luxury and this desirable thing.
So that people are saving moneyto then just dump it all on
like a belt or like a dress.
But going back to personal financefor a second, my question to
you is what are some ways thatyou've been mindful with it?
(39:36):
What are some tips that you have just,um, whether it's saving, whether it's
investing, whether it's the way in whichyou're using money, tips or any things
that For folks who are interested.
Leslie Xia (39:52):
Yeah, I feel like whenever people ask me about budgeting, I always
tell them about the 50 30 20 split, wherewhen you get your paycheck, based on your
monthly expenditures, like 50 percent ofyour monthly paycheck should go towards
your needs, which are, you know, rent,food, phone bill, anything that are
(40:17):
considered necessities for your survival.
And then 20 percent into saving,investing, or paying down, like, credit.
And then the 30 percent is for your wants.
Like, anything that you arewilling to, like, go out to eat.
Or you're willing to buy clothing.
(40:38):
But making sure that you are alwayshaving your needs met, but also
working towards saving as well.
And then like that 30 percent cango down but should never like exceed
30 but for your savings or for yourneeds like your savings that can go
(40:59):
always go up and you should alwaysprioritizing, prioritize your savings.
Making sure that you have at least threeto six months of when it comes to like
your safety net for your savings in caseanything happens, like if you get laid off
or, you know, there's a health emergency.
(41:20):
I think people like oftentimesdon't want to look at the numbers.
They don't, they would rather, youknow, have the money come in, have
it go out and then just dependingon like how it goes, it'll adapt.
But.
It is so important to sit down,look at the numbers, just like
(41:40):
prepare, you know, I feel like it'sintimidating, but it's so necessary.
Steven Wakabayashi (41:47):
Why do you think people don't want
to look at their numbers?
Leslie Xia (41:51):
I mean, it's scary, you know, like,
Steven Wakabayashi (41:53):
I
Leslie Xia (41:54):
think for me, like in the beginning of my career, like
not wanting to care about it.
Not seeing it as important, but I thinklike as you grow older, like thinking
about like retirement, thinking aboutlike being self sustaining or like if you
start seeing that you're living paycheckto paycheck, like, okay, what, what, what
(42:20):
are the areas to, to take a look at, youknow, and then I feel like that can be
hard to, I mean, I feel like if, If youlive in a high income area, like in a
high expenditure area, but are not, aremaking very low income, it'll be hard.
But then at that point, it's how, howcan you work with friends, community,
(42:44):
for everyone to survive together?
But it's tough.
It's tough.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (42:50):
Yeah.
I have so much empathy for peoplewho it's really hard to digest.
I don't think the way in whichwe make it is really simple
for people to digest, right?
We have these complicated,like we talked about, like
predatorial debt programs, right?
That like, they don't even tell youupfront how much interest it is, right?
(43:15):
Like if, for example, like Klarnaand Affirm had put their interest
rates as like the second buy line.
Yeah.
Why would anyone evenwork with them, right?
I, I think.
We, we've set up so many systemswhere we, we shame people, right?
If you don't have money,you're not worthy.
If you're not wealthy,you're not important.
(43:37):
If you can't care for yourself,what good are you, you know?
And I think the first stepcomes with a lot of empathy
and a lot of compassion, right?
Like with any hard topic, Ithink it's so easy to avoid, but
especially when it comes to personalfinance, I think the hard part.
Right, like you mentioned is itcan snowball into something real
(44:00):
quick, you know, and you take onlike this credit card to pay off a
few things, throw some things on.
And I think the challenge withfinance is the longer you put it
off, sometimes you're not aware ofthe hole that you're digging up, you
know, I know a ton of people thatlike when things are tough, like.
(44:21):
You know, trying to keep the same outwardappearance and taking on debt, putting
a ton of things on credit cards, andI always give the big sister advice,
and when they talk to me, I'm like,you can't be doing that, and also to
have friends who don't support you inyour journey, whether you're up in the
(44:41):
high and down in the low and kind ofhelping you navigate the two, right?
True friends are ones that wouldn't care.
about that, right?
True friends are the ones that know thatyou're going through a tough time and
they're not going to force you to go to,you know, places out of your means, right?
Or choosing activitiesto do out of your means.
And I think, at least for me, goingback to combating these feelings, I
(45:05):
think it also sheds light on maybeeither whether it's systems or
people that might not be supportive.
Maybe there's a pointof reflection, right?
Um, and I think there's more to unpackwith personal finance, especially these
like tough feelings and difficult thingsthat I think can shed light into other
(45:30):
facets within our lives, our livelihoods,and even personal finance that could
better us in the long run, right?
And for yourself, maybe what's somethingthat you've learned along the way that
didn't go so well for you in the orwhat was like a stumbling block for you?
(45:53):
When it came to personal finance.
Leslie Xia (45:56):
I guess taxes can be one where everyone has to like
master over time, but I feel likethe rules are constantly changing.
I think, especially for peoplelike are freelancing, the idea
of setting money aside for likequarterly taxes can also be daunting.
(46:17):
I feel like the taxcode is so complicated.
I feel like for me every year, Iend up having to like pay taxes.
After the fact, even though like with likemy paycheck at my company, they withhold.
But at the same time, I feel like likewith the New York City, the New York
state tax code, like it varies every year.
(46:39):
So then the amount changesand it gets so complicated.
Right.
And I feel like that is, it's hardbecause everyone needs to learn about it.
Everyone needs to master it, butalso like know how to deal with like
deductions, know how to like offset.
(46:59):
So then.
It isn't so scary, or even workingwith an accountant to like,
figure out your numbers as well.
Talk about it with like,friends and family.
My sister and I, every, everyyear during tax season, we're
like, Okay, what are your numbers?
What's going on here?
Going into whatever tax software we'reusing and like, trying to figure out
(47:22):
like, What half these things are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you, do you do yourown taxes or do you?
Steven Wakabayashi (47:30):
No, I, to your point, taxes have been changing so rapidly.
I run a few businesses andI think, especially with
such a changing presidency.
Leslie Xia (47:44):
Mm hmm.
Steven Wakabayashi (47:46):
Like the tax code and people aren't aware of it.
I wasn't aware of this, right?
Like the president can create like astaff that then ultimately pushes down
different tax codes and, and what hadhappened during Trump's presidency is
very different from Biden's presidency.
And I think when we're getting into allof these oscillations with like going
(48:09):
back to how politics shows up even, right?
That's why tax codes have beenchanging so rapidly over years.
Like what, like a Republican party ispushing as like a write off the next year,
it's gone, but then the thing that I hatethe most is that it's not transparent.
(48:29):
And unless you have an accountantand this is their day to day like
you just will miss it, you know,and going back through the financial
industry and how predatorial it is.
There's so many and we definitelydon't have time to go into the depths
of it, but systems that people createto like preserve wealth and and it's
(48:51):
just especially when I had openedup my non profit and I'm in the non
profit world I'm like oh wow like Ididn't realize how people created these
systems with these different businessinstitutions to then preserve their
ungodly amount of wealth, you know.
(49:11):
But the TLDR there is peopleopen up non profits and then they
just dump all this money into itand they're like, forget Roth.
Like, this is my own personal, like,Roth IRA that I can dump, like, millions
into and you don't pay taxes on it.
It's just like someinsane things like that.
Like, the example too is like, speakingabout Roth, IRA, like an investment
(49:34):
vehicle, right, for folks listening.
Um, like, there are investors likePeter Thiel, one of the wealthiest gay
men who's funding Republican parties.
Like, he put a lot of his ownPalantir stock into his Roth
and that like skyrocketed.
It's just like theseinsane things, just like...
like, what is happening?
Um, I mean, the TLDR there is Ireally love what you mentioned
(50:00):
of just talking about it.
I think that is compassion, right?
Showing up compassionately foryourself, be unapologetically
talking about it, you know?
And I think, like, I feel like thisis a thread about, like, your stories.
And then personal finance, speaking onstories, speaking on finance stories,
(50:22):
I think is such a beautiful theme.
And when we can speak to it, that'swhen we, I think, ultimately can
invite people in to help, you know?
Leslie Xia (50:33):
For sure.
For sure.
I feel like whenever I talk to my sisterabout money, she's always like telling
me like, maybe you should start a podcastwhere you talk about money through the
lens of being queer and through the lensof like community rather than, because
I feel like oftentimes personal financepodcasts or just like money podcasts
(50:56):
in general, like the language is.
It is hard, right?
And then also, like I wassaying before about like, when
people say for retirement, itis very like, me me me focused.
Steven Wakabayashi (51:06):
You should start it.
Leslie Xia (51:09):
But in real life, it's true that it's like, it's, it's,
it's, you know, how do we talk aboutmoney when we break that taboo, right?
Of like, um, the idea of like,money is evil or the idea of like,
once you view someone, In the lensof, oh, they have money, like,
now there's so many connotationsthat now you have of that person.
(51:30):
Why can't we have queer community wherewe all are able to thrive together, right?
Like, isn't that ideal?
But it's like, I don't know, like how,how can we break away from, from the
negative connotations of like, wealth ishoarding when, why is it that affluent
(51:52):
people, like, especially white, like,if white affluent people are able
to, like, enjoy so many joys in life,like, why can't we have that as well?
You know, like, why can't we all buildtogether to create that for ourselves?
I feel like, We often wantto break away from that.
Like we don't want to beassociated with wealthy folks.
(52:16):
Like, yeah, I don't know.
Steven Wakabayashi (52:19):
Yeah.
And you know, for listeners, I thinkit's like we mentioned earlier, it's
like a balance, you know, like whatI'm learning, especially running my
agency and the nonprofits is like, youhave to have a solid business plan.
Like there has to be a way that youfigure out like how you're making the
money, how you're paying the people.
(52:39):
Right.
And.
I feel like sometimes this fear andapprehension, not just on the personal
level, like also impacts work, right?
Imagine you're running an organizationnow and you're just like flying off the
cuff and there's no plan, you don't knowhow, who's going to get paid, what, and
then we
talk about equity, there's so manylayers of equity within also having
(53:02):
very responsible mature financing.
When we create things and projects,um, I have some friends who run social
impact organizations and they help setup protests and stuff like that and
their whole thing is making sure thereis financing behind it, not necessarily
through like corporate donations, right,but communal aid financing that can
(53:27):
help pay for food, water, like all thesesupplies and equipment that go into
the importance of running successfulprotests, successful march, you know,
um, and sometimes we forget that it'snot, "We need it", like, all of a sudden,
(53:48):
like, "We want to run a protest, I needlike 5 million", like, it's not that,
like, that's not what we're sayingat all, you know, but it's this whole
notion of, I guess the word I woulduse is, like, responsible financing,
right, that ultimately allows us tocreate communal care for one another,
you know, yeah, it's, it's so important.
(54:10):
And as we're starting to get towardsthe end, I want to touch on one more
topic, which is on financing or personalfinancing in the intersection with our
queer communities and our livelihoods.
What does that mean for you?
Leslie Xia (54:24):
I
mean, part of it, I guess, like the ideaof like socially responsible investing,
like supporting folks around you, right?
Like I think for me, it's, Whenever I seea friend who needs, who like shares on
like say like Instagram story that theyneed funds, like being willing and able
(54:45):
to help folks out, I think it's like sucha priority that everyone should have.
Like, even if it's like my immediatecommunity too, you know, or if it is
like folks that even if I don't, ifI don't know them, it's like, okay.
Then am I interested in raisingmoney to help these folks out?
(55:06):
Like for a while I had a projectcalled Say Their Name and we raised
money by producing stickers offolks who were victims of police
brutality and then using those fundsto support trans folks on GoFundMe.
Like I think thinking about ways oflike, how can I help my community using
(55:33):
the skills that I have, the resourcesthat I have, because it's, it's so
important, you know, I think it's like,like taking a step back and knowing
that My community is important becausewe have to survive and thrive together.
Steven Wakabayashi (55:52):
Oh, I love that.
And I think that's a beautiful way ofusing finance in a way that doesn't feel
icky, but is leaning into the power ofit to really help protect and uplift our
communities and
our people.
I love it.
Okay, real quick, rapidquestions for the end.
(56:12):
What is one takeaway that you want ourlisteners to walk away with this episode?
Leslie Xia (56:20):
Think at the end of the day, like taking, taking your time, I
think learning is an experience whereyou have to really study yourself.
And then like, I think when itcomes to things like budgeting,
saving, it all requires time, right?
Um, I think for me,I'm constantly looking.
(56:42):
At time as opportunity, like never use,never look at your own time as a way of
being like, oh, I could have done this.
Like I wasted X, Y, and Z.
Like, don't see it as a loss.
See your, the amount of time you have.
as this is all the potentialthat my life can be.
(57:03):
And then from there, take those steps,sit down, look at what you can, what's
possible, and then think about how,how you can take that and thrive.
Time is so important.
We all, we have, we allhave so much time, right?
How can you make the most use of it?
Steven Wakabayashi (57:20):
Yeah, I love that.
What is bringing you joy lately?
Leslie Xia (57:26):
Oh, um, yeah, going outside.
I mean, it's also because theweather's been getting getting better.
Um, past week, I went home well, I wentto my grandma's house in Florida to
like visit and my dad and my grandmalike started like a little farm.
So like just being like in nature being
(57:48):
with family.
My grandma does get a littleannoying, but you know, I love her.
And then this weekend, um, my partnerand two of my friends, we're going
to like, we rented a little cabin.
So like getting away to like swim inthe lake, you know, like taking time
for ourselves to just like enjoy.
(58:09):
Life, I guess.
Yeah,
Steven Wakabayashi (58:13):
That's beautiful.
We have to bring you onagain for another episode.
I want to hear about this farm
Leslie Xia (58:19):
Oh, yeah for sure.
Yeah, like not for I think he went throughlike a bit of a midlife crisis where he's
sort of like, he, I think for him, hefeels like a duty to make as much money
as he can, but also like create like sortof like a retirement home for my grandma.
(58:41):
And when he was a child, like,like they kind of, they came from
a very like farming, um, community.
So there's, there's sort oflike returning back to that.
His, his main produceright now is passion fruit.
So he has like a huge, like, it's,I think it's like four acres of
passion fruit plants are growing.
(59:02):
And then
Steven Wakabayashi (59:03):
You're kidding.
That's, that's phenomenal.
Leslie Xia (59:06):
And, and my grandma on the side, like grows all of her little
vegetables, like, like fuzzy squash andlike the Chinese fruits, like they're
growing like longans, lychees, persimmons.
Like they're just, they'retrying to do all everything.
And I, I feel like every timeI go, I'm like, wow, like, I
want to learn how to do this.
(59:28):
Learning how to, like, till theland and create, like, food from it.
And, like, my dad, I think he also wantsto sort of create, like, a little commune.
Like, he built, like, a house and now he,he, he keeps, like, joking about, like,
me also building a house on his landand, like, getting one for my mom, too.
And, like, I don't know, it'svery ambitious and I really
(59:52):
commend him for his ambition andwanting to provide for my grandma.
But yeah, maybe in like 20 years, youknow, like maybe we can have like a
little communal like farming retreat for,my family and also like queer community
to come out and like farm together.
I don't know.
Like, I feel like thepossibilities are so endless.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:00:16):
Well, that sounds amazing.
And I'm just like, Oh, everythingabout those sounds so delicious.
And I think it's interesting howwe're seeing the world, right?
We went from like, we're tryingto mass produce everything at
scale, all these companies and.
We're like, let's just go back tobasics, you know, just grow some
(01:00:37):
delicious food in your backyard and bringpeople you love together in doing so.
That's beautiful.
Um, and last question for you,how can people find you in
your work and reach out to you?
Leslie Xia (01:00:53):
Yeah,
on Instagram, I'm Memoirs ofa Geisha or for my work, D.
Leslie Shaw.
Website, leslieshaw.
com, and I'm always open for emails,so my email is theleslieshaw@gmail.Com
if anyone ever has questions.
After our extra bold talk, a few ofthe people in QTBIPOC reached out
(01:01:18):
to me and we chatted a little biton email, so I'm always willing to
chat and offer any advice that I can.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:01:26):
That's awesome and thank you for doing that.
Um, and also thank you forbeing on the show and thank
you for the work that you do.
Not just some of the like beautiful tipsthat you shared today but just broadly
I think you've done such a great jobover the course of so many projects
to uplift people, uplift communities,uplift stories and Excited to see all
(01:01:51):
the other things you're going to bedoing and bringing into this world.
And if folks haven't been able tocheck out Leslie book, Leslie's
book yet, um, it's called, uh, letme make sure I'm getting it right.
Extra Bold, A Feminist InclusiveAnti Racist Non Binary Field
Guide for Graphic Designers.
Highly, highly recommend it.
(01:02:13):
Um, and for Folks who struggle to read.
There are a ton of pictures.
It's very interactive.
Um, and it's such an inclusive perspectivewith so many different voices in
this book as it pertains to design.
With that, uh, Leslie, thankyou so much for your time and
really appreciate you having on.
Thank you.
Leslie Xia (01:02:32):
No, thank you for like providing this safe space to
like talk about things like this.
Like I feel like, Even withQTBIPOC, I feel like, you know,
you're doing amazing work.
So thank you for, for inviting me andletting me in on, on, on this as well.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:02:45):
Yes.
And for listeners, hope youtook some nuggets of wisdom
from our podcast episode.
For folks who want to find us, you couldfind our website@yellowglitterpodcast.com,
uh, where you'll be able to see shownotes, additional past episodes, and
(01:03:05):
if anyone wants to reach out to us,whether it is your thoughts, any guest
recommendations, you could find us onsocial @yellowglitterpd, uh, short.
For podcast.
For folks who wanna support ourpodcast, we recommend leaving
us a review on your favoritepodcast platforms, review of help.
Other people find our podcast, uh,such as this episode you heard today.
(01:03:29):
And with that, uh, thank youfor listening, and I hope
to see you again all soon.
Bye everyone!
For me, growing up in a Chinese household,
community was so strong.
So, as I grew up, we were alwayssurrounded by community, relatives,
constantly, like, parties, gatherings.
The way my family survived waseveryone would chip in for, say,
someone has a business idea.
(00:20):
Someone wants to start a supermarket.
I feel like everyone was constantlysupporting each other to survive.
Now, for us, we have chosen family.
We have our communities where wesurvive through mutual aid, but.
When it comes down to like retirement orour lives later down the line, we need
to create a foundation for ourselves,create that like the idea of the nest
(00:42):
egg, the safety net, and it starts withlike learning about personal finance
and how, how to save, how to budget.
And then have it grow from there.
If you want to help others,you have to like, have your
own foundation set up first.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:16):
Hi everyone.
My name is Steven Wakabayashi andyou're listening to Yellow Glitter,
perspectives from queer Asian creativesand change makers making impact.
This episode we're joined by anextra special guest, Leslie Xia.
Leslie Xia, they them, is a queerChinese American graphic designer and art
director currently working at Invesco.
They have previously worked atDotDash Meredith, Men's Health,
(01:39):
Vice News, and Fast Company.
Their personal work focuses on race,gender, identity, and social justice.
They have received recognition from theFinancial Communication Society, the
Society of Publication Designers, theNewswoman Club Front Page Awards, Print
Magazine Regional Design Awards, andFast Company Innovation by Design Awards.
(02:00):
Xia graduated from MICA, MarylandInstitute College of Art in Baltimore.
Welcome to the show.
Leslie Xia (02:10):
Thank you for having me.
Very excited.
Steven Wakabayashi (02:13):
Yes.
We had you recently on as apanelist for our book club at
our non profit QTBIPOC Design.
It was so amazing to haveyou as a part of the session.
And just for context for listeners,we brought Leslie on to talk
about their book, which was justthis beautiful culmination of
(02:36):
all these different perspectives.
About 12, 13 authors.
It was a good number of thembringing different perspectives
into the book around the topicof design and design equity.
Real quick, before we get started andget into the meat of our episode, let's
talk a little bit about your book anda little bit about your work there.
(02:58):
If you want to share with listeners.
Your part in the book.
What was that like?
Yeah,
Leslie Xia (03:04):
so it was during I think 2019 when Ellen Lupton first reached out
to me She was one of my professors backat MICA and I feel like was one of the
people who like really helped mentor alot of students So post graduation she
knew that I did a lot of work on campusand for about like social justice themes
(03:28):
and was very active, even post grad.
So when she had the idea to startthis book, she reached out to me
initially, like to interview me forlike, cause within the book, we have
a few interviews of, um, designers whoare currently working in the industry.
And when we took a look at the booktogether, I, I asked if I could...
(03:51):
take a read just to see if thereare any parts that I felt like
could be improved upon and myinitial my initial thought was hmm.
I think this book requiresmany more voices and she was
completely receptive to it.
She completely understood whyand my reasoning behind it.
So then she took the steps to reach outto folks who she knew would make the,
(04:17):
the reading experience of the book andalso just the, the book as a resource
much more layered and much more helpful.
There's such a wide range of identitiesand experiences and like how to, How
we all navigate within the world.
So as like the, the book progressedin the development, I think.
It was so nice and welcoming to haveEllen be so receptive and I am very
(04:43):
glad for like the final product.
And sometimes I hope, I hope andI wish and I dream of like the
expanded versions of the book.
It has been translated intoSpanish, Portuguese, Italian,
and I'm maybe in the future therewill be like Asian languages too.
But yeah, I think it's, I'm so likeproud and you know, happy that this.
(05:07):
book like exists in the world.
Yeah.
It's also, it's like so muchpotential there too, as well.
Steven Wakabayashi (05:14):
Yeah.
Maybe there's a part two bringing inmore new perspectives and update to it.
Right.
Leslie Xia (05:20):
Right.
I wish.
Yeah.
Hopefully, maybe.
Yeah.
I think like, that is a good idea though.
I feel like, you know, theworld is constantly changing.
Like even now, like the conversationsaround like AI, like how can we
now think about it in througha lens of like, how can...
this now change the design industryand what does that mean for people
(05:45):
who are entering the industry?
Like I think there's yes so much so much.
Steven Wakabayashi (05:49):
Yeah, I think the landscape of also design and the role
of design is changing and a lot ofus think design as we're simply, you
know, putting something pretty on thescreen or on the wall or design as just
like an aesthetics thing, or design assomething simply, uh, pushing pixels
(06:13):
and making interfaces you use every day.
But a big part of the teachings that wehave over on the non profit side, we talk
about design as a challenge of usability.
Design is really needed.
Creativity is needed.
To rethink the way we invite other peopleto use products to show up in spaces, and
(06:33):
the example we give is something as simpleas a doorknob had to be designed, right,
had to be created, and basically all thestuff around us, whether it's the cars and
the trains we take each day or the spaceswe inhabit, the tools that we use, devices
that we use, Um, and even the screensthat we're talking in right now has all
(06:56):
been conceptualized from creativity.
And so that's some thingsthat really inspire me in the
work that I do and keep going.
And maybe for yourself, you know,going into the work that you've
done, can you share a little bitabout what are you doing right
now and maybe how you got into it?
Leslie Xia (07:16):
Yeah, currently I'm at Invesco and I'm on their creative services team
and work on like branding, activations,media campaigns, have a great team.
I feel like this is the first timewhere my team I feel like at home
with, which I feel like is so rareand I'm so like grateful for that.
(07:39):
Before I was in final financial services,I feel like my entire journey through
my career has been like very editorialfocused or like news media focused.
I started off, like, I've alwaysbeen interested in magazines
when I graduated college.
Like that was my main goal was toget into the editorial industry.
(08:01):
So I started off at Fast CompanyMagazine, which is like a tech
and business focused magazine.
Their iPad edition and also on theirprint edition and also on their
website and had a lot of fun there.
I, you know, I was had so many mentorsin the beginning of my career through
Fast Company and also through likethe Society of Publication Designers.
But I transitioned from there toVice, to work on Vice News, primarily
(08:25):
on their website, it was vicenews.
com, that was like a supplementaryto their daily news show on
HBO, and I learned a lot there.
It was, they moved extremely fast.
I also learned a lot about the ethics ofjournalism, the ethics of photojournalism.
And just like my role as a designerand art director on Mac, curating what
(08:51):
content accompanies like extremelyheavy stories and my role in like
showing faces, showing trauma, showingdifferent elements of like these
stories and like how to shape the story.
So it becomes like an easyday to receive by readers.
(09:16):
But also still like humanizing peoplethrough these like experiences as well.
And then while I was there, Ifeel like I made the decision
to want to take a step back.
Um, and then wanted to, wantingto go back into editorial design.
I feel like news, news design isso important, but I think it was a
(09:38):
bit heavy on my heart a little bit.
And I transitioned back intoeditorial through Men's Health.
And I feel like I learned how towork really fast at Men's Health.
We had a monthly magazine and as theAssociate Art Director, we were producing
so much content so quickly all the time.
(09:59):
It was like a 96 page magazine andmy team was small but we were mighty.
But I learned a lot about like, ArtDirection when it comes to like,
uh, working with photographers andillustrators all up there and sort of
formulating my own ethos around hiringand who I want to work with and who I
(10:19):
want to bring onto the page and createplatforms for when it comes to like,
illustration, and then also thinking verycritically about how we want to shape
these stories through illustration, likehow to shape different concepts and ideas.
But I feel like with each of one ofmy jobs through my career, like feel
like I've learned something thatbecame like very formative for me.
(10:43):
But then I guess like the, the throughline that ran from all of these jobs
was also like, while I was learning,I was also like learning money and
learning how to save that money, I guess.
And.
I became very interestedin like personal finance.
So then when a job posting for amagazine called Millie popped up,
(11:09):
Millie is a finance magazine for women.
I was like, Hmm, this is like the perfectintersection of the things I'm interested
in, like editorial design, coupled withlike learning how to save and invest.
And I was like, okay, I wouldlike to join this team also.
Probably also because I felt like I'vealways been interested in like service or
(11:34):
whenever I create personal work wantingit to serve either like a younger version
of myself or like who am I trying to likehelp educate or like provide insight to
and I was like okay like Millie magazinewould be perfect because this is also
something I'd be interested in like theircontent so I joined their team and Also,
(12:00):
I like, I feel like I learned so muchthrough this job, I think partly about
like the politics of like corporate life.
It was at the peak of the pandemicwhen I joined, and I feel like that
was such like a learning experiencefor everyone who, who, everyone working
(12:22):
in like corporate at the time, orjust, I mean, the entire world, right?
I, but from Millie, I was like deep infinance world and then, you know, And
then transitioned over to Invesco after,because I was like, this feels natural.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (12:43):
Yeah.
I feel like there's somuch to unpack there.
Um, maybe just going one at a time.
Speaking about Vice News, Iactually really love the work that
had been published by Vice News,especially as it pertains to those,
like you mentioned, tough topics.
I had watched a ton of their stuff onYouTube, the longer form videos, and
(13:07):
especially as it pertains to, why don'twe pause here for a minute and talk about,
but this duality between social media,right, where everything is trying to be
like this 10, 50 second bite size, reel,and the duality between longer form media,
documentaries, and even books, right,that go in depth into these tough topics.
(13:28):
And I think we're in such aweird era now with media that,
you know, it's just a headline.
People aren't reading even thearticles that are behind the headlines.
And a lot of misinformationis spreading quite rapidly.
You see statistics going up and up andup because people aren't actually going
(13:51):
into the complexity of the issues.
We're rather trying to extrapolatethis surface level, you know, whether
it's rage, anger, sadness, contemptthat comes out from it, which in turn
turns into like clickbaity material.
Just curious your experience there,um, you mentioned a little bit about
(14:12):
being equitable with our directionand the designs and the work and...
curating content to support thematerials in an equitable fashion.
What is that like?
What does that mean?
Leslie Xia (14:27):
Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of like communicating with the journalists.
What is the root of the story?
What are we trying to say?
Who are we trying to represent?
And I think with news, it also, theimpartiality of it, I feel like it gets
hard because oftentimes there's more thanone way to like look at something, right?
(14:50):
And your role is to try to sort of helpdefine and make things more easy to view.
But I think at the same time, it'shard because, because of the fact
that, especially if like, we don'tcome from the specific places
(15:12):
that these stories are being told,you have to be very, very clear.
You have to be very, you have to tell thestories from like, the eyes of the people.
And I feel like our correspondentswho go like feet, boots on the
ground are, you know, interviewingfolks, putting their lives at stake.
(15:33):
Like I've always commended them for thatand it's such a hard job, extremely hard.
I feel like I often, like wheneverour correspondents would come back
from literal war zones where theywere wearing like bulletproof vests.
Like we had a cage in the officefloor of the bulletproof vest.
I And I feel like every day goinginto the office was very humbling,
(15:57):
knowing the role that we all had inmaking sure that the narratives that
we tell were true, making sure that thestories did everyone justice, right?
So humbling, but also so intimidating.
I felt like, yeah, every daywas like a new challenge.
(16:18):
I think such a learningexperience as well, yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (16:21):
I think that's a little bit synonymous
with also your work, right?
The design book that you recentlywritten, where you have to bring in
all these perspectives into the mix.
And at the end of the day, Wherewe toe the line between what is
performative, to be frank, and what istruly representative, we at the end of
(16:42):
the day have to bring other people up.
And if people aren't on the stage,we have to get them on stage.
And especially with Vice News, what Idid really love and commend is a lot
of the media was shot on site, right?
It was right then and there.
(17:04):
They weren't focused on makingpersonalities like the newscasters,
these people, but really they'rejust like voiceovers or they're just
always in the background and you'reseeing all of the footage and content
and materials shedding light ontowhat exactly is kind of the topic.
But also like the design and artdirection, everything was beautiful.
(17:26):
It was like, it was so
good.
Leslie Xia (17:29):
The Vice News graphics team was like top tier.
So good.
Steven Wakabayashi (17:33):
It was good.
It was good.
It was so good.
Um, and even like the videography,cinematography, I was like, dang,
this is really, really good.
And then going also into yourpublication experience, um, all these
different magazines that you worked at.
I mean, let's sit here for a second.
(17:56):
Um, I'm just curious, especiallyas it pertains to content, right?
And churning out so muchcontent as a part of the work.
I think especially for creators.
I think that's always a challenge, right?
Of like, whether it's perfectionistmentality, or whether it's just
like, maybe imposter syndrome.
(18:16):
Like all these different layers, right?
That hold us back fromgetting work out there.
I'm just curious.
I know you had mentioned when youwere sharing a little bit about that
experience, this whole notion oflike, it really taught you how to
move fast and just like get thingsout there, especially as a creative.
What was that experience really likeand what did it really teach you
(18:38):
about finding this balance and dualitybetween perfection and also speed?
Leslie Xia (18:44):
Yeah, I think, I guess I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll speak about it
through like the lens of like, likeMillie for example, since I was also
helping to like write stories when itcomes to content, like a lot of it.
You have to think about whether or notit's like relevant and then also like
if it's authentic to the readers andis it authentic to your own experiences
(19:04):
as well like what you're trying toinform readers of so like for me at
the time like thinking about how socialmedia influencers make money like how
can we teach people about differenttiers of that if they wanted to learn
how to do that or an example is...
we had like a Thanksgiving dinnerstory and I remember saying
(19:27):
like, let's change the lens.
Can we hire indigenous chefs tocreate recipes for the story?
Having the power to like shape contentin the way that feels most authentic
to you, but also important, I guess?
Ever since, I guess, when I workedon Taylor, which was my queer
(19:52):
fashion magazine from college.
When you have the power to shape thenarrative and write the stories, like
thinking about what is most helpfuland what guides people more, I guess.
Yeah, and I think a lot of that, I guess,was also when I first started interning
(20:14):
at magazines in college, like, I wassuper interested in masculine fashion.
So I interned at like, um, EssentialOil Magazine, Esquire Magazine, read
a lot of like GQ to sort of teachmyself about what I wanted to learn.
(20:35):
And I think in turn, I was like,afterwards, I was like, okay.
Now it's my turn to create content.
What do I want to teach people?
What would, what would they want to learn?
Steven Wakabayashi (20:46):
Yeah.
I'm also starting to see a beautifulthread with all of your work.
That's like all multi layered,all related around stories
and how we bringing people up.
Sharing their stories, you know, andI guess for your story too, like,
I love the work that you're doingin the magazine, bringing up these
(21:08):
perspectives and then bringing you intonow the finance industry, this whole
notion of personal finance as reallyimportant facet of our communities.
Can you shed a little bitmore on what does that mean
when you say it is important?
(21:29):
Why is it important for queer folks,queer communities, queer Asian
communities to even care about finance?
Leslie Xia (21:36):
Yeah, I mean, at the root of it is survival, right?
Steven Wakabayashi (21:39):
Mhmmm
Leslie Xia (21:41):
I think especially like living in New York City, it's so expensive.
And then also thinking aboutthings like retirement.
For me growing up, in a Chinesehousehold, community was so strong.
My grandparents and their generation,they immigrated to New York in the 80s.
So, The majority of my dad's side ofthe family, they're all in New York.
(22:05):
So as I grew up, we were alwayssurrounded by community relatives,
constantly like parties, gatherings.
But after leaving home, I feel like havingto find that sense of community as well
and also supporting each other, right?
(22:25):
I feel like.
The way my family survived waseveryone would chip in for, say,
someone has a business idea, someonewants to start a supermarket, someone
needs money for their pregnancy.
I feel like everyone was constantlysupporting each other to survive.
(22:46):
But now for us, we have chosen family.
We have our communities where we survivethrough mutual aid, but when it comes down
to like retirement or our lives later downthe line, we need to create a foundation
for ourselves, create that, like theidea of the nest egg, the safety net.
(23:10):
And it starts with like learningabout personal finance and how,
how to save, how to budget, andthen have it grow from there.
Cause there's that one, the sayingwhere it's like, you have to like
buckle your own, or what is it,when the plane, on the plane, it's
like, oh, you have to put your mask
Steven Wakabayashi (23:29):
on.
You have to put your mask on, yeah.
Where you
Leslie Xia (23:31):
can help other people, like that, I feel like that is so real when
it comes to personal finance as well.
You know how it's, it's hard to surviveto begin with, you know, but if you
want to help others, you have to likehave your own foundation set up first.
Steven Wakabayashi (23:48):
Yeah, it's interesting too, because we live in a society here
specifically as Asian Americans in theWest where we have a government that
frankly really doesn't provide servicesto people unless you already come
with money to a certain degree, right?
(24:08):
We don't provide free housing,we don't provide free food, we
don't provide free healthcare.
And everything in this capitalist economyis driven based largely due to the, the
amount of money somebody has, how fastsomebody is able to make money, right?
And even when we look at allthese publications, right,
(24:30):
like who's on the cover?
If you're wealthy here in America,you're going to get on covers.
You're going to be renownedfor just even being wealthy.
And we have this weird.
thing where money somehow is
like on the extreme end, power, right?
And status, but I guess going back tothe other end about how are we surviving?
(24:55):
How are we caring for each other?
How are we providing communal care?
I think finance is really,really important, especially
as a language we all hold.
I think the challenge, right,is it's a very icky topic.
Because capitalism is hurtingus, but yet we need to kind
(25:15):
of swim within it to survive.
I'm just curious, how are younavigating that as like this interest
of personal finance, this topicthat clearly isn't serving so many
folks in our communities, right?
Queer people or Asian folks,specifically with Asian folks also facing
homelessness in higher rates acrossall the different ethnicities, right?
(25:39):
Finance is hurting us.
But also it's such a necessity.
How does it look like tonavigate that for yourself?
Leslie Xia (25:48):
Yeah.
I mean, for me, it's like justtalking about it as much as I can.
I feel like whenever my friends or familylike have questions about money, the more
you talk about it, the more people learn.
Over communicating is so important.
Like, I feel like I, I understandthat, you know, like the
money is the root of evil.
(26:09):
I feel like people immediately have aconnotation of you if you're viewed,
perceived as wealthy or perceived aslike making more money than other people.
And that's so real.
I totally get it.
But I also want to push everyoneto try to like understand like why
and also how it's not just aboutlike earning, it's about saving.
Steven Wakabayashi (26:35):
And you know, maybe the thing I'll add there too is I
think there's a lot of shame around it.
Leslie Xia (26:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi: There's a lot of shame. (26:41):
undefined
There's a lot of fear.
And going back to like, you know,like Buddhist philosophies, they
always talk about it's a balance.
You know, nothing in lifeis ever black and white.
We also don't live in a societywhere if you don't talk about
it, you don't action on it, likeyou're going to somehow survive.
That's not going to happen.
But also on the other end, amassing allof this is also not going to save you.
(27:03):
All right.
Like all these like billionairesare creating these bunkers and
God knows where it's like at theend, like it's, we have to figure
out how to survive as a community.
But going back to your point, I thinkalso sometimes like specifically in
Asian communities, there's a lot offear, hesitancy, uh, shame around it.
Right.
(27:24):
Growing up, yeah, it's hard to talk about.
Leslie Xia (27:27):
Yeah, like my parents right now are both trying to figure
out like what retirement looks like.
Like my mom doesn't have retirementand I feel like I'll probably
have to be helping her through it.
But that's so real, right?
I feel like that's what inAsian communities, it's like
all about supporting each other.
But I think with like American culture,it's like the idea of the nuclear family,
(27:50):
it's like so much more independent.
And that's why people like think aboutretirement as like, like a me, me, me.
Like I need to save for myretirement, but it really is.
I think for us, you know, how do we createit so we are all able to, to thrive?
Steven Wakabayashi (28:08):
Yeah, that's so real.
Question for you.
What are some things that you'velearned that have been really kind
of like aha moments for you in termsof personal finance specifically?
Leslie Xia (28:25):
I think whenever I talk to people about retirement,
whenever I throw out the numberthat you're supposed to have.
By the time you're a certain age tolike be able to retire, people are
always like, oh my gosh, I mean, forme, like, for me, the number is 1.
5 million and people will be like,that's crazy, why is it that much money?
(28:51):
And the idea is like for the 20 yearsafter you hit 65, you need at least
like a certain amount of money tosurvive yearly posts at that age.
Like when I first learnedthat, I was like, that's crazy.
How?
(29:11):
And I think, you know, little thingslike that is people don't tell
you until you like, Look at like apersonal finance book or like have
to like sort of face that I guess
Steven Wakabayashi (29:25):
Actually, I don't think a lot of people know because I
don't talk about a lot either I'm reallyI love personal finance to me like the
whole concept of personal finance ismaking sure the work that you do and the
money that you make you create the maximumopportunity potential with it, you know?
And I
(29:45):
think one challenge is that I'vebeen learning more and more recently
is this whole notion about like,spending money and this whole notion
of like having status by, you know,having all these lavish things.
One of the years, I actuallywent to study a ton of Buddhism
(30:06):
at different monasteries.
And the arc here is, as a part ofBuddhism and for folks who want
to become like monks or nuns, theydo this practice of renunciation.
Renunciation is this giving up ofevery material goods and possession,
because the whole belief and concept,right, of Buddhism is this belief that
(30:28):
desire and want create unhappiness.
And the way that they've kind of cometo the need of renunciation, giving up
material goods, especially capital andpersonal private possessions, is these
things create wanting and desire, right?
So monks and nuns have to give up alltheir finances and they either donate
(30:49):
it to the monastery or give it to otherfolks in their communities, but basically
they live in these, you know, enclaveswhere they practice communal care, right?
They, they, they sweep, they clean, theytake care of the monasteries, they feed
each other and they've created like kindof economy and community that is very
(31:09):
different from these capitalistic norms.
But anyway, going back to the point Ithought the practice of renunciation
was so interesting because when Ipracticed it for the better of like a
year, I was like, what could I give up?
Instantly, I was starting to seethis thread of how shopping and all
(31:30):
of these things that we're, we're,we're told across like social media
channels, all these things is actuallyhurting our own personal finance.
Right?
Yeah.
Right.
This, this notion that like, Oh, I have tohave the latest gadgets, the latest iPhone
and phones are costing like 1, 500 now.
It's like, That's right, Leslie.
(31:50):
Like they used to cost likea hundred bucks, right?
200 bucks.
And we're speeding into this placewhere like, I see a lot of people just
going into massive amounts of debt, youknow, because of the spending habits.
Um, latest statistics show that theseafter pay programs like Affirm and also
(32:10):
Klarna, Gen Z are missing payments.
They just make it so easy foryounger generations to use.
Their social media, not like, notsocial media, sorry, social security
number to then buy and make a palletfor like 60 bucks and then are aware
that the interest rates on those areway higher than credit cards, 30%, you
(32:35):
know, and it's just so predatorial.
Coming back to personal financeis, um, what I've been seeing more
and more, especially social mediaplatforms getting more integrated,
tightly integrated with commerce.
is that to even have personal finance, wehave to get a hold of how we're spending
money and also how we're saving, right?
Leslie Xia (32:58):
Yeah, no, like the idea of lifestyle inflation, more money wanting
to, to spend more, the idea of likekeeping up with the Joneses, like so real.
I feel like for me, wanting to get acar when I absolutely do not need a car.
And like you were saying about socialmedia and finance, like the fact that
(33:18):
TikTok has TikTok shot or Instagramhas the Instagram, it just makes it
so much easier for people to spendwithout knowing about credit or
knowing how it'll affect them later on.
It's, it's so, so dangerous.
It's such a slippery slope, forpeople who just don't look at
(33:39):
their credit card balances, right?
Like people who think that.
As long as you're makingmoney, it'll catch up.
Then it doesn't catch up if you areoverspending or just being in New
York, like, like New York City, whenyou go outside and go to dinner,
it ends up being 200 at a time.
(33:59):
It adds up so fast or like Uber rides.
I think it's like, yeah, capitalismmakes it so easy for people to spend
money and it's so, it's so dangerous.
I feel like for me, like, I, I'm socritical of like the way I spend.
Steven Wakabayashi (34:14):
You have to be.
Leslie Xia (34:15):
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (34:16):
Yeah.
Leslie Xia (34:17):
I'm, I'm, I feel like I'm always nagging like my, my sister
or my partner to like spend less.
And yeah, I mean, it's, I thinkthat's also just like so deeply rooted
in like the way I was raised too.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (34:33):
Yeah, it's one thing that has helped me, this
adage that there's two, right?
Like personal finance I think issimply spend less than you make, right?
If you're spending more, takingon debt, you're taking on credit
or debt through credit cards.
(34:54):
To get the spending that farexceeds, right, where you're
at, I think you're gonna see.
You're just digging a holethat it's really hard.
Our financial systems are so predatorial
in
a way that I feel like any debt withinterest, it's just, you keep paying
(35:14):
it and it just doesn't go away, right?
You hear these stories.
of people with student loans andliterally after having paid the amount
of student loans off they still haveif not the same amount of balance.
Sometimes some students report onsocial media that I've seen they
actually have more that they'veaccrued because of interest and
I'm like how is this possible?
(35:34):
But the other adage that I have isthere's always going to be something
more expensive, always going tobe something more flashy, there's
always going to be something moreluxury, nicer, than what you have...
Undeniably, undoubtedly, you know, andthat there comes a point where we just
have to put a stake in the ground, youknow, and say, this is nice, right?
(35:58):
This is comfortable.
And I think going back to also theconcept of mindfulness, I think doing
that allows us to appreciate things more,be in the moment with some of our stuff.
And like you mentioned aboutrestaurants, yes, like easily some
restaurants you go to, I, like, it'sone of my biggest pet peeves, you go
to a restaurant, right, and you don'tpick it, some other person picks it.
(36:21):
And they're just ringingup that tab so quickly.
And then one time
Leslie Xia (36:26):
Three dollars?
Like, why?
Steven Wakabayashi (36:29):
Yeah, and then they're like four rounds of drinks,
like bottles of wine, and thenthey're like, okay, let's split.
Each person pays like three, four hundred.
I'm like, what?
Like, this is crazy.
But personally, you know, I foundin New York City some restaurants
that I love taking people to.
And that are also budget friendly,the food is also good, the people
(36:52):
who work there are great, and for me,those things are so nice, you know,
and I think, I think it also reallyhumbles, myself and also all of us
to just appreciate and I hate sayingsmall things but valuable things, right?
And then value is thenquantified simply by numbers.
(37:13):
Also, how many times have we gone toa restaurant that you, like, it was
expensive and it was also gross, you know?
Like
Leslie Xia (37:19):
Worse than bad and you had to pay a lot
of money.
Steven Wakabayashi (37:23):
Right.
Or like any things that you buy, right?
Whether it's clothes or whetherit's material goods and you're
just like, it just fell apart.
Leslie Xia (37:32):
I feel like, so like, I'm not ashamed to tell people to
buy dupes of, like, luxury goods.
Cause at the end of the day, alsooftentimes the factories that
are outsourced to produce thoseluxury goods create the same dupe.
Steven Wakabayashi (37:50):
Yeah, yeah, and I think right now you're also starting to
see luxury fashion making cuts within theproduction line, right, in the facilities.
And actually, what's not is some ofthe dupes are even better quality.
Like, it's, It's all a partof a perception, right?
(38:12):
It's like the marketing, likethe influencer marketing, right?
And who they're putting these productson that somehow you think because it's at
the Met Gala or on the red carpet, right?
These designers.
are creating all these products.
Mind you, they're doing it more selfright for media, PR, marketing, and
(38:33):
all these people see these brands, it'slike, oh, wow, this is so, you know,
amazing, and the price warrants it.
And more often than not, they'rejust, also poorly made, you know, uh,
unequitable conditions, overseas, um,low wage workers working tirelessly for
hours and hours and hours, you know.
(38:55):
And there's another eye opening, I forget,um, if it was an article or like a social
media post, but there's this notion thatthis one person was articulating where
even like luxury fashion isn't aimedat wealthy people, but it's actually
aimed at lower income people as this.
(39:16):
means of luxury and this desirable thing.
So that people are saving moneyto then just dump it all on
like a belt or like a dress.
But going back to personal financefor a second, my question to
you is what are some ways thatyou've been mindful with it?
(39:36):
What are some tips that you have just,um, whether it's saving, whether it's
investing, whether it's the way in whichyou're using money, tips or any things
that For folks who are interested.
Leslie Xia (39:52):
Yeah, I feel like whenever people ask me about budgeting, I always
tell them about the 50 30 20 split, wherewhen you get your paycheck, based on your
monthly expenditures, like 50 percent ofyour monthly paycheck should go towards
your needs, which are, you know, rent,food, phone bill, anything that are
(40:17):
considered necessities for your survival.
And then 20 percent into saving,investing, or paying down, like, credit.
And then the 30 percent is for your wants.
Like, anything that you arewilling to, like, go out to eat.
Or you're willing to buy clothing.
(40:38):
But making sure that you are alwayshaving your needs met, but also
working towards saving as well.
And then like that 30 percent cango down but should never like exceed
30 but for your savings or for yourneeds like your savings that can go
(40:59):
always go up and you should alwaysprioritizing, prioritize your savings.
Making sure that you have at least threeto six months of when it comes to like
your safety net for your savings in caseanything happens, like if you get laid off
or, you know, there's a health emergency.
(41:20):
I think people like oftentimesdon't want to look at the numbers.
They don't, they would rather, youknow, have the money come in, have
it go out and then just dependingon like how it goes, it'll adapt.
But.
It is so important to sit down,look at the numbers, just like
(41:40):
prepare, you know, I feel like it'sintimidating, but it's so necessary.
Steven Wakabayashi (41:47):
Why do you think people don't want
to look at their numbers?
Leslie Xia (41:51):
I mean, it's scary, you know, like,
Steven Wakabayashi (41:53):
I
Leslie Xia (41:54):
think for me, like in the beginning of my career, like
not wanting to care about it.
Not seeing it as important, but I thinklike as you grow older, like thinking
about like retirement, thinking aboutlike being self sustaining or like if you
start seeing that you're living paycheckto paycheck, like, okay, what, what, what
(42:20):
are the areas to, to take a look at, youknow, and then I feel like that can be
hard to, I mean, I feel like if, If youlive in a high income area, like in a
high expenditure area, but are not, aremaking very low income, it'll be hard.
But then at that point, it's how, howcan you work with friends, community,
(42:44):
for everyone to survive together?
But it's tough.
It's tough.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (42:50):
Yeah.
I have so much empathy for peoplewho it's really hard to digest.
I don't think the way in whichwe make it is really simple
for people to digest, right?
We have these complicated,like we talked about, like
predatorial debt programs, right?
That like, they don't even tell youupfront how much interest it is, right?
(43:15):
Like if, for example, like Klarnaand Affirm had put their interest
rates as like the second buy line.
Yeah.
Why would anyone evenwork with them, right?
I, I think.
We, we've set up so many systemswhere we, we shame people, right?
If you don't have money,you're not worthy.
If you're not wealthy,you're not important.
(43:37):
If you can't care for yourself,what good are you, you know?
And I think the first stepcomes with a lot of empathy
and a lot of compassion, right?
Like with any hard topic, Ithink it's so easy to avoid, but
especially when it comes to personalfinance, I think the hard part.
Right, like you mentioned is itcan snowball into something real
(44:00):
quick, you know, and you take onlike this credit card to pay off a
few things, throw some things on.
And I think the challenge withfinance is the longer you put it
off, sometimes you're not aware ofthe hole that you're digging up, you
know, I know a ton of people thatlike when things are tough, like.
(44:21):
You know, trying to keep the same outwardappearance and taking on debt, putting
a ton of things on credit cards, andI always give the big sister advice,
and when they talk to me, I'm like,you can't be doing that, and also to
have friends who don't support you inyour journey, whether you're up in the
(44:41):
high and down in the low and kind ofhelping you navigate the two, right?
True friends are ones that wouldn't care.
about that, right?
True friends are the ones that know thatyou're going through a tough time and
they're not going to force you to go to,you know, places out of your means, right?
Or choosing activitiesto do out of your means.
And I think, at least for me, goingback to combating these feelings, I
(45:05):
think it also sheds light on maybeeither whether it's systems or
people that might not be supportive.
Maybe there's a pointof reflection, right?
Um, and I think there's more to unpackwith personal finance, especially these
like tough feelings and difficult thingsthat I think can shed light into other
(45:30):
facets within our lives, our livelihoods,and even personal finance that could
better us in the long run, right?
And for yourself, maybe what's somethingthat you've learned along the way that
didn't go so well for you in the orwhat was like a stumbling block for you?
(45:53):
When it came to personal finance.
Leslie Xia (45:56):
I guess taxes can be one where everyone has to like
master over time, but I feel likethe rules are constantly changing.
I think, especially for peoplelike are freelancing, the idea
of setting money aside for likequarterly taxes can also be daunting.
(46:17):
I feel like the taxcode is so complicated.
I feel like for me every year, Iend up having to like pay taxes.
After the fact, even though like with likemy paycheck at my company, they withhold.
But at the same time, I feel like likewith the New York City, the New York
state tax code, like it varies every year.
(46:39):
So then the amount changesand it gets so complicated.
Right.
And I feel like that is, it's hardbecause everyone needs to learn about it.
Everyone needs to master it, butalso like know how to deal with like
deductions, know how to like offset.
(46:59):
So then.
It isn't so scary, or even workingwith an accountant to like,
figure out your numbers as well.
Talk about it with like,friends and family.
My sister and I, every, everyyear during tax season, we're
like, Okay, what are your numbers?
What's going on here?
Going into whatever tax software we'reusing and like, trying to figure out
(47:22):
like, What half these things are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you, do you do yourown taxes or do you?
Steven Wakabayashi (47:30):
No, I, to your point, taxes have been changing so rapidly.
I run a few businesses andI think, especially with
such a changing presidency.
Leslie Xia (47:44):
Mm hmm.
Steven Wakabayashi (47:46):
Like the tax code and people aren't aware of it.
I wasn't aware of this, right?
Like the president can create like astaff that then ultimately pushes down
different tax codes and, and what hadhappened during Trump's presidency is
very different from Biden's presidency.
And I think when we're getting into allof these oscillations with like going
(48:09):
back to how politics shows up even, right?
That's why tax codes have beenchanging so rapidly over years.
Like what, like a Republican party ispushing as like a write off the next year,
it's gone, but then the thing that I hatethe most is that it's not transparent.
(48:29):
And unless you have an accountantand this is their day to day like
you just will miss it, you know,and going back through the financial
industry and how predatorial it is.
There's so many and we definitelydon't have time to go into the depths
of it, but systems that people createto like preserve wealth and and it's
(48:51):
just especially when I had openedup my non profit and I'm in the non
profit world I'm like oh wow like Ididn't realize how people created these
systems with these different businessinstitutions to then preserve their
ungodly amount of wealth, you know.
(49:11):
But the TLDR there is peopleopen up non profits and then they
just dump all this money into itand they're like, forget Roth.
Like, this is my own personal, like,Roth IRA that I can dump, like, millions
into and you don't pay taxes on it.
It's just like someinsane things like that.
Like, the example too is like, speakingabout Roth, IRA, like an investment
(49:34):
vehicle, right, for folks listening.
Um, like, there are investors likePeter Thiel, one of the wealthiest gay
men who's funding Republican parties.
Like, he put a lot of his ownPalantir stock into his Roth
and that like skyrocketed.
It's just like theseinsane things, just like...
like, what is happening?
Um, I mean, the TLDR there is Ireally love what you mentioned
(50:00):
of just talking about it.
I think that is compassion, right?
Showing up compassionately foryourself, be unapologetically
talking about it, you know?
And I think, like, I feel like thisis a thread about, like, your stories.
And then personal finance, speaking onstories, speaking on finance stories,
(50:22):
I think is such a beautiful theme.
And when we can speak to it, that'swhen we, I think, ultimately can
invite people in to help, you know?
Leslie Xia (50:33):
For sure.
For sure.
I feel like whenever I talk to my sisterabout money, she's always like telling
me like, maybe you should start a podcastwhere you talk about money through the
lens of being queer and through the lensof like community rather than, because
I feel like oftentimes personal financepodcasts or just like money podcasts
(50:56):
in general, like the language is.
It is hard, right?
And then also, like I wassaying before about like, when
people say for retirement, itis very like, me me me focused.
Steven Wakabayashi (51:06):
You should start it.
Leslie Xia (51:09):
But in real life, it's true that it's like, it's, it's,
it's, you know, how do we talk aboutmoney when we break that taboo, right?
Of like, um, the idea of like,money is evil or the idea of like,
once you view someone, In the lensof, oh, they have money, like,
now there's so many connotationsthat now you have of that person.
(51:30):
Why can't we have queer community wherewe all are able to thrive together, right?
Like, isn't that ideal?
But it's like, I don't know, like how,how can we break away from, from the
negative connotations of like, wealth ishoarding when, why is it that affluent
(51:52):
people, like, especially white, like,if white affluent people are able
to, like, enjoy so many joys in life,like, why can't we have that as well?
You know, like, why can't we all buildtogether to create that for ourselves?
I feel like, We often wantto break away from that.
Like we don't want to beassociated with wealthy folks.
(52:16):
Like, yeah, I don't know.
Steven Wakabayashi (52:19):
Yeah.
And you know, for listeners, I thinkit's like we mentioned earlier, it's
like a balance, you know, like whatI'm learning, especially running my
agency and the nonprofits is like, youhave to have a solid business plan.
Like there has to be a way that youfigure out like how you're making the
money, how you're paying the people.
(52:39):
Right.
And.
I feel like sometimes this fear andapprehension, not just on the personal
level, like also impacts work, right?
Imagine you're running an organizationnow and you're just like flying off the
cuff and there's no plan, you don't knowhow, who's going to get paid, what, and
then we
talk about equity, there's so manylayers of equity within also having
(53:02):
very responsible mature financing.
When we create things and projects,um, I have some friends who run social
impact organizations and they help setup protests and stuff like that and
their whole thing is making sure thereis financing behind it, not necessarily
through like corporate donations, right,but communal aid financing that can
(53:27):
help pay for food, water, like all thesesupplies and equipment that go into
the importance of running successfulprotests, successful march, you know,
um, and sometimes we forget that it'snot, "We need it", like, all of a sudden,
(53:48):
like, "We want to run a protest, I needlike 5 million", like, it's not that,
like, that's not what we're sayingat all, you know, but it's this whole
notion of, I guess the word I woulduse is, like, responsible financing,
right, that ultimately allows us tocreate communal care for one another,
you know, yeah, it's, it's so important.
(54:10):
And as we're starting to get towardsthe end, I want to touch on one more
topic, which is on financing or personalfinancing in the intersection with our
queer communities and our livelihoods.
What does that mean for you?
Leslie Xia (54:24):
I
mean, part of it, I guess, like the ideaof like socially responsible investing,
like supporting folks around you, right?
Like I think for me, it's, Whenever I seea friend who needs, who like shares on
like say like Instagram story that theyneed funds, like being willing and able
(54:45):
to help folks out, I think it's like sucha priority that everyone should have.
Like, even if it's like my immediatecommunity too, you know, or if it is
like folks that even if I don't, ifI don't know them, it's like, okay.
Then am I interested in raisingmoney to help these folks out?
(55:06):
Like for a while I had a projectcalled Say Their Name and we raised
money by producing stickers offolks who were victims of police
brutality and then using those fundsto support trans folks on GoFundMe.
Like I think thinking about ways oflike, how can I help my community using
(55:33):
the skills that I have, the resourcesthat I have, because it's, it's so
important, you know, I think it's like,like taking a step back and knowing
that My community is important becausewe have to survive and thrive together.
Steven Wakabayashi (55:52):
Oh, I love that.
And I think that's a beautiful way ofusing finance in a way that doesn't feel
icky, but is leaning into the power ofit to really help protect and uplift our
communities and
our people.
I love it.
Okay, real quick, rapidquestions for the end.
(56:12):
What is one takeaway that you want ourlisteners to walk away with this episode?
Leslie Xia (56:20):
Think at the end of the day, like taking, taking your time, I
think learning is an experience whereyou have to really study yourself.
And then like, I think when itcomes to things like budgeting,
saving, it all requires time, right?
Um, I think for me,I'm constantly looking.
(56:42):
At time as opportunity, like never use,never look at your own time as a way of
being like, oh, I could have done this.
Like I wasted X, Y, and Z.
Like, don't see it as a loss.
See your, the amount of time you have.
as this is all the potentialthat my life can be.
(57:03):
And then from there, take those steps,sit down, look at what you can, what's
possible, and then think about how,how you can take that and thrive.
Time is so important.
We all, we have, we allhave so much time, right?
How can you make the most use of it?
Steven Wakabayashi (57:20):
Yeah, I love that.
What is bringing you joy lately?
Leslie Xia (57:26):
Oh, um, yeah, going outside.
I mean, it's also because theweather's been getting getting better.
Um, past week, I went home well, I wentto my grandma's house in Florida to
like visit and my dad and my grandmalike started like a little farm.
So like just being like in nature being
(57:48):
with family.
My grandma does get a littleannoying, but you know, I love her.
And then this weekend, um, my partnerand two of my friends, we're going
to like, we rented a little cabin.
So like getting away to like swim inthe lake, you know, like taking time
for ourselves to just like enjoy.
(58:09):
Life, I guess.
Yeah,
Steven Wakabayashi (58:13):
That's beautiful.
We have to bring you onagain for another episode.
I want to hear about this farm
Leslie Xia (58:19):
Oh, yeah for sure.
Yeah, like not for I think he went throughlike a bit of a midlife crisis where he's
sort of like, he, I think for him, hefeels like a duty to make as much money
as he can, but also like create like sortof like a retirement home for my grandma.
(58:41):
And when he was a child, like,like they kind of, they came from
a very like farming, um, community.
So there's, there's sort oflike returning back to that.
His, his main produceright now is passion fruit.
So he has like a huge, like, it's,I think it's like four acres of
passion fruit plants are growing.
(59:02):
And then
Steven Wakabayashi (59:03):
You're kidding.
That's, that's phenomenal.
Leslie Xia (59:06):
And, and my grandma on the side, like grows all of her little
vegetables, like, like fuzzy squash andlike the Chinese fruits, like they're
growing like longans, lychees, persimmons.
Like they're just, they'retrying to do all everything.
And I, I feel like every timeI go, I'm like, wow, like, I
want to learn how to do this.
(59:28):
Learning how to, like, till theland and create, like, food from it.
And, like, my dad, I think he also wantsto sort of create, like, a little commune.
Like, he built, like, a house and now he,he, he keeps, like, joking about, like,
me also building a house on his landand, like, getting one for my mom, too.
And, like, I don't know, it'svery ambitious and I really
(59:52):
commend him for his ambition andwanting to provide for my grandma.
But yeah, maybe in like 20 years, youknow, like maybe we can have like a
little communal like farming retreat for,my family and also like queer community
to come out and like farm together.
I don't know.
Like, I feel like thepossibilities are so endless.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:00:16):
Well, that sounds amazing.
And I'm just like, Oh, everythingabout those sounds so delicious.
And I think it's interesting howwe're seeing the world, right?
We went from like, we're tryingto mass produce everything at
scale, all these companies and.
We're like, let's just go back tobasics, you know, just grow some
(01:00:37):
delicious food in your backyard and bringpeople you love together in doing so.
That's beautiful.
Um, and last question for you,how can people find you in
your work and reach out to you?
Leslie Xia (01:00:53):
Yeah,
on Instagram, I'm Memoirs ofa Geisha or for my work, D.
Leslie Shaw.
Website, leslieshaw.
com, and I'm always open for emails,so my email is theleslieshaw@gmail.Com
if anyone ever has questions.
After our extra bold talk, a few ofthe people in QTBIPOC reached out
(01:01:18):
to me and we chatted a little biton email, so I'm always willing to
chat and offer any advice that I can.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:01:26):
That's awesome and thank you for doing that.
Um, and also thank you forbeing on the show and thank
you for the work that you do.
Not just some of the like beautiful tipsthat you shared today but just broadly
I think you've done such a great jobover the course of so many projects
to uplift people, uplift communities,uplift stories and Excited to see all
(01:01:51):
the other things you're going to bedoing and bringing into this world.
And if folks haven't been able tocheck out Leslie book, Leslie's
book yet, um, it's called, uh, letme make sure I'm getting it right.
Extra Bold, A Feminist InclusiveAnti Racist Non Binary Field
Guide for Graphic Designers.
Highly, highly recommend it.
(01:02:13):
Um, and for Folks who struggle to read.
There are a ton of pictures.
It's very interactive.
Um, and it's such an inclusive perspectivewith so many different voices in
this book as it pertains to design.
With that, uh, Leslie, thankyou so much for your time and
really appreciate you having on.
Thank you.
Leslie Xia (01:02:32):
No, thank you for like providing this safe space to
like talk about things like this.
Like I feel like, Even withQTBIPOC, I feel like, you know,
you're doing amazing work.
So thank you for, for inviting me andletting me in on, on, on this as well.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:02:45):
Yes.
And for listeners, hope youtook some nuggets of wisdom
from our podcast episode.
For folks who want to find us, you couldfind our website@yellowglitterpodcast.com,
uh, where you'll be able to see shownotes, additional past episodes, and
(01:03:05):
if anyone wants to reach out to us,whether it is your thoughts, any guest
recommendations, you could find us onsocial @yellowglitterpd, uh, short.
For podcast.
For folks who wanna support ourpodcast, we recommend leaving
us a review on your favoritepodcast platforms, review of help.
Other people find our podcast, uh,such as this episode you heard today.
(01:03:29):
And with that, uh, thank youfor listening, and I hope
to see you again all soon.
Bye everyone!
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