October 1, 2024 • 63 mins
For this episode, guest Louis Lee joins us. Louis is the chief creative officer and co-founder of Bellweather, a strategy-led creative agency that specializes in transforming legacy brands in the non-profit healthcare and travel sector. Louis is passionate about helping brands thrive in an ever-changing landscape, particularly by expanding and diversifying audiences, including women, people of color, and Gen Z.
In this episode, we chat about:
- Overcoming childhood challenges while living in an Asian household
- Navigating family dynamics as a queer couple
- Breaking away from limiting Asian stereotypes
- Analyzing the root of Asian stereotypes in America
- Being a minority in corporate spaces
- Leaning into supportive family and friends
You can find our guest at:
- Instagram: @bellweatheragency
- Website: bellweather.agency
- X: @louisklee
You can follow me at:
- Instagram: @stevenwakabayashi
- YouTube: @stevenwakabayashi
- Subscribe to my weekly newsletter: yellowglitterpodcast.substack.com
- Visit our website yellowglitterpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Louis Lee (00:00):
I remember even as a child.
In situations that would make meuncomfortable or that I was scared of
or that would be such a challenge to me,I've remembered so distinctly, and I do
this now, where I whispered to myself,like, "be brave, be brave, be brave".
I think through that revisiting ofmy childhood and that upbringing,
(00:23):
a way for me to find healing hasbeen through also recognizing how
proud I am of myself and the childI was to have made it through that.
All of those identities, all thosecultures, all of that code switching
to survive and to, to keep making it.
(00:43):
Like I'm, I'm proud of that part.
And I think that's a way for me to notown the trauma, but to acknowledge it, but
also to find the joy and also the powerof how it led to the person I am now.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:18):
Hi everyone, my name is Steven Wakabayashi and
you're listening to Yellow Glitter,perspectives from queer Asian creatives
and change makers making an impact.
This episode we're joined by anextra special guest, Louis Lee.
Louis is the chief creative officer andco founder of Bellweather, a strategy
led creative agency that specializes intransforming legacy brands In the non
(01:39):
profit healthcare and travel sector,Louis is passionate about helping
brands thrive in an ever changinglandscape, particularly by expanding and
diversifying audiences, including women,people of color, and Gen Z, ensuring
that brands not only grow but remainrelevant in their competitive markets.
Though Louis calls New York City home,he carries his Midwestern roots with
(02:02):
pride, having been born and raised in St.
Louis, Missouri.
His journey as a queer asian creativehas been shaped by his experiences
in the vibrant communities he's beena part of, fueling his dedication
to fostering inclusivity andcreativity in all that he does.
Welcome to the show.
Louis Lee (02:21):
Thank you for having me, Steven.
Steven Wakabayashi (02:23):
Thank you.
So excited for our conversation.
You and I met months ago, actually, now,uh, we were at an event with one of our
friends, Tai, who's been on the podcastcelebrating his birthday, and we were
just sitting in proximity with each other,Tai had introduced us together, and once
(02:45):
we started talking, I felt like you aresuch a, almost like a long time friend.
For many years, we're both in the agencyspace, creating our projects, we're
doing work that we think is communitycentered, impact driven work, and
I was just, I just really loved ourconversation and you creating space, and
(03:06):
I was like, yes, like, let's bring it onthe podcast one, but I was like, I want
to get to know more of you as a person.
You're just like, so cool.
So down to earth andjust a kind, kind soul.
Louis Lee (03:18):
Well, the feelings were completely mutual.
I think we ended up talkingmostly to each other that night.
But it's not just being in acreative space, like we're also
both queer Asian business owners.
which further really narrows kind ofhow we could relate to each other.
(03:39):
Um, so it truly felt like this, uh,I remember us saying to each other,
or at least I said to you, thisalmost the universe really wanted
to bring us together that night.
And especially in that moment forme when I really needed someone that
could just relate to me, it felt almostcosmic that we had met and it's been
really awesome getting to know you too.
Steven Wakabayashi (04:01):
Same, same.
And the news for you, uh, youjust recently got married, right?
Yeah, I did.
What was that like?
What had
happened?
Louis Lee (04:13):
Well, It's crazy because I've been with my now husband for 10 years
before we got married last week, and alot of people told us and even to each
other were like, what could really feeldifferent after being together this long?
It's probably just going to feel thesame, but it really did feel different.
(04:34):
We might just be in our honeymoonphase, but I feel an incredible
amount of security, you know, justbeing legally recognized as a union
with this person that I've beenin a relationship with 10 years.
There's so many reasons for why we wantedto mark 10 years of being together by
getting married, but also, it's justin many things practical, like I just
(05:00):
can't imagine anyone making healthcaredecisions for me if it ever came to that,
knock on wood, but it, it, it, therehas been this feeling and this shift and
it, and it feels great to, uh, solidifyor pour concrete into our relationship
with, uh, with getting married.
Steven Wakabayashi (05:19):
Yeah.
So the question I have that maybe somepeople are also thinking 10 years.
Did you think about it earlier on?
Like, what was your thoughts onmarriage going into the relationship?
And what was the turning momentwhen you're like, let's get married?
Was there something that hadhappened that made you reflect and
(05:41):
go, like, we just got to do it now?
Louis Lee (05:44):
That is a great question.
For us going into our relationship,even from the early onset, we felt
really committed to each other.
So there was never this feeling of needingto rush because in the grand scheme of
eternity, everything still felt early.
(06:06):
Even saying I've been with my husband for10 years still feels like there's so many
more years to enjoy and to look ahead to.
So there was never that rush.
And also us being in New York City,me running a business, He's a really
(06:28):
ambitious corporate girly, as we call it.
We didn't really have that time to reflectand it just sort of quickly flashed by.
It felt like yesterday that we still met.
So it really just has been this whirlwindof living our life professionally
(06:49):
developing, and then us sort ofstopping and realizing we should talk
about what's next in our relationship.
And I think a key point in me in termsof when I wanted to propose, which was
eight years of being together, so it wasabout two years ago, was Me realizing
(07:09):
and reflecting that this is incrediblyserious and I need to tell my parents
about this relationship because actuallyin the eight years of us being together
at that time, they really didn'tknow about my personal life because
of many factors that we'll get into.
(07:31):
And I told them I've been inthis relationship with this
man for eight years now.
It's really serious.
And with that sharing and, you know,with the challenges with my relationship
with my parents, I wanted to be honestwith them and also solidify my commitment
(07:55):
to my now husband by proposing to him.
Um, so it was a mix of severalevents that made it feel like
the right time when I proposed.
And, for us, it we decided to just waita couple more years to hit that 10 year
mark so that we can immortalize whatwe did for our 10 years of being in
(08:19):
a relationship by getting married, sothat's kind of how it all panned out.
Steven Wakabayashi (08:24):
Wow well, I have to ask, you know, what was
that experience like when youwere telling your family about it
Louis Lee (08:36):
It's very much like my coming out, it was over
the phone there back in St.
Louis, and I've, since graduatingschool, have always lived away from St.
Louis, whether it was Chicago or NewYork City or where I went to school.
I, of course, am someone that wouldhave loved the interaction to be in
(08:58):
person, but Sometimes things justhappen where you're on the phone
with somebody, the conversationleads from one thing to another.
I am recalling that we were talkingspecifically about holiday plans.
So, over the past 8 years, even 10years of our relationship, Reggie
(09:19):
and I, when it comes to holidaytimes, it can be challenging for us
because, we both have parents thataren't accepting of our relationship.
So it's usually the time we often goto each other's respective hometowns.
And I remember my mom or mydad, my parent, asking about
(09:45):
my holiday plan that year.
And what led to me telling them aboutmy relationship is, I don't think
I'm gonna come home or come to St.
Louis this year because I wantto spend it with my family.
And it turned into, what family?
We are your family.
(10:06):
Which led to me saying, you are myfamily, but I also have my own family now.
You know, I have, I had this man, Reggie.
I have a dog with this man, like, weare a family, and this is my family, and
I want to spend the holiday with him.
(10:27):
So, that, that's how the conversationkind of emerged with me, not
coming out, coming out, but justsharing that I'm in a relationship.
Steven Wakabayashi (10:39):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (10:40):
Because I had come out to them years prior, also over the phone.
Yeah.
And also in very similarcircumstances, just us.
Catching up and then it's sort of justcoming up that way in this organic way.
So, you know, that of coursecreated a tension with my
parents as it's always have.
(11:00):
But yeah, that's how, the news sort ofcame out to my parents that I've been
in this relationship and, you know,Reggie is my husband, is also in a
similar situation and that's somethingthat we navigate together continually.
Steven Wakabayashi (11:19):
Hmm.
How's the relationship?
on the topic changed since the two years.
Have they asked about it?
Have they been curious?
What has it been like navigatingleading up to the marriage
and even after marriage?
Louis Lee (11:34):
It's still a, this, we, Reggie and I describe it to people as
uh, don't ask, don't tell situation.
It's very much like that way.
It's like a no fly zone.
Steven Wakabayashi (11:45):
Hmm.
They're still figuring out
Louis Lee (11:47):
with you.
Right.
Like their reaction to it, yeah.
And, you know, unfortunately, becausewe have that distance between us, the
physical distance, there really isn'tmany opportunities to have conversations
without either my parents or myself takingthat proactivity of making a connection
via a phone call, uh, a phone chat.
(12:12):
With that, the conversations areso far and few between that it's,
it just doesn't get brought up.
Steven Wakabayashi (12:22):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (12:22):
And it's, over the past two years, I haven't been going back to my
hometown as frequently because of how muchmore of family events are now centered
around Reggie and myself or meeting upinstead my sister who doesn't live in St.
(12:44):
Louis.
So our holidays have, are starting toevolve with, we can call it a chosen
family even though my sister is myblood relative and I have nephews.
So we're forming newtraditions with family.
It just doesn't include our parents.
And that's something thatis more of them missing out.
(13:09):
You know what I mean?
Like we are really excited.
And, you know, my siblings orReggie siblings, sibling is also
really excited by us formingthese new traditions together.
And what we see as a future together asa family and what our holidays can look
(13:31):
like and we all know holiday time can bereally It can come with a lot of tension
and a lot of, a lot of feelings for manyindividuals, especially queer folks.
So, yeah, so, you know, I haven't had areal opportunity to sit with my parents
(13:52):
and to continue the conversation.
But right now I'm just protectingmy joy and this kind of love
bubble I'm in with my husband.
When the right time comes, I hope thatwe, or myself, can at least bring it
up, and it's not seeking acceptancefrom them, because I never want them
(14:17):
to feel I'm trying to change theirmindset on anything, but for me it's
always about being honest with myself.
So coming out to them again with, nowI'm married, has less to do with how
they feel, and a lot more to do withhow I respect my relationship and
(14:39):
how my joy isn't determined by them.
Steven Wakabayashi (14:41):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (14:42):
Uh, and it is truly a respect to my relationship and myself
and just getting them to know thatthis is where I'm currently at.
Now, I don't want it to sound like Idisrespect them in any way, but I, I
also want to know, I also want to letthe people that have raised me and
(15:03):
that have brought me into this world.
To know that, hey, this is, thisis, this is who this person is.
Yeah.
A part of me wants them toat least know that much.
Steven Wakabayashi (15:20):
I mean, it's a, it's a huge theme on the podcast and
this navigation of Asian identitiesand Asian background and also the layer
of the United States and culturally,especially in the Midwest, like it's not
like as accepting as many coastal cities.
(15:41):
Right.
And there's just so many, evenlike for myself, I was raised in
an area that was about 45 minutes.
uh, east of Los Angeles and it was soconservative and nobody was out and
it's so funny that there's so manymore people who were actually like
queer and out and just took many years.
(16:04):
It's, it's, it's so fascinating tosee how we all come to the same space
of this desire to be free, but tobe free is also to reconcile how we
navigate these situations becausewe still are tied to it, right?
Your family still lives there.
Absolutely.
Um, you still have to go back.
(16:27):
To just show face, right?
To still keep that relationship.
Yeah.
But we can never, we can never getrid of the past and the history of
how we were raised, our upbringing,and a big part of our healing is
also reconciling that relationship.
Absolutely.
And formulating a newrelationship with it.
(16:47):
A new way forward with it, andit is very healing and very
hard work to do, you know?
Louis Lee (16:57):
It really is, and, you know, you talking about that, it's a lot of code
switching that we had to do growing up.
Like, we're talking about beingborn to Korean immigrants.
Yeah, that is an identitythere being in the Midwest.
Steven Wakabayashi (17:18):
Mm
Louis Lee (17:19):
hmm.
Where the Asian communityor population is very small.
Steven Wakabayashi (17:23):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (17:24):
So that's another identity to navigate.
Are they also religious?
My parents are very religious.
Yeah.
So that's another thing to switch into.
I grew up church three times a week.
Reggie also grew up in avery similar situation.
Is three or more types ofservices throughout the week.
(17:44):
Wow.
And then also the queeridentity part of it.
And as a child, not havingany modeling for that.
So we're already listed like four orfive different types of identities or
cultures maybe that we had to navigate.
(18:06):
So that is incredibly challengingfor any child to grow up in.
But to your point as well, looking backon that, as traumatic as it can appear,
I think something that I'm learning aboutlooking back at that and my upbringing
(18:28):
is really, I find healing throughowning how I navigated through that.
That's how I survived growing up.
And the thing that comes up with me is,I remember even as a child, In situations
that would make me uncomfortable orthat I was scared of or that would
(18:54):
be such a challenge to me, I always,I've remembered so distinctly and I
do this now where I whisper to myselflike, be brave, be brave, be brave.
And I remember also, and tothis day I feel this, I often
would feel pride with myself.
(19:16):
Like I give my own like tap onthe shoulder, like you did a
good job by having faced that.
It was
uncomfortable, It wasscary, but you did that.
So I think through that revisiting ofmy childhood and that upbringing, a way
for me to find healing has been throughalso recognizing how proud I am of myself
(19:44):
and
the child I was to havemade it through that.
All of those identities, all of thosecultures, all of that code switching
to survive and to, to keep making it,like I'm, I'm proud of that part and
I think that's a way for me to notown the trauma, but to acknowledge
(20:07):
or just make it feel less painful.
It's, it's a way to own it and toacknowledge it, uh, but also to find.
the joy and also the power of howit led to the person I am now.
Steven Wakabayashi (20:25):
Wow.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
And where do you think you picked upon that, this reminder to be brave?
Where did you pick it up?
Louis Lee (20:39):
I don't recall where I picked it up in childhood, but It's lately
been coming up for me because, uh, onework that I am doing lately is working
with an executive coach, uh, that mypartners and I are working with because
we always want to improve and be betterleaders or business owners and part of
(21:03):
the work that we do is Individually, wekind of look back at our upbringing and
our childhood in order to understand whowe are as leaders to this day, because
a lot
of how we are as adults is still very muchinformed by our childhood experiences.
(21:24):
So with this work that I'm doing, alot of this has come to surface again.
And I've been so open to it becauseit's another opportunity for me to,
A, continue to grow as a person, toimprove how I want to be as a manager,
(21:46):
to people, and how I want to lead.
And obviously all of the personal impactsit has in terms of self discovery,
which for all of us should never end.
We should always be workingon our own self discovery.
Uh, at least from my perspective.
So, I just can't remember as achild where that came from in terms
(22:08):
of me telling myself to do that.
I think, I believe that, like, I'vealways had a lot of ambition growing up.
Like, I've always wantedto be the leader of things.
I've always wanted to be presidentsof the clubs, whatever they are.
That was this almost like natural thingthat came within me and I don't quite know
(22:33):
what it's informed by, like perhaps it is.
Growing up closeted where you wantto control your environment, all that
stuff, perhaps it is a little bit ofthat, but I was genuinely interested
in leadership type roles even as akid, so I think having that ambition,
that personality, must have comewith that aspect of telling myself
(22:57):
to be brave and to just face things.
And, of course, I can recognizethat a lot of that might also be
informed by the harmful things wehear as closeted children growing up.
You know, like, you have to be thisway, otherwise you're going to be
called these kinds of names, right?
(23:18):
And in the fear of being called thosenames, I wanted to challenge myself
so that I rejected those names.
So, of course, there's part ofthat, that I understand may feed
into why I kept telling myselfto be brave, be brave, be brave.
(23:42):
But I do also recognize thatit brought me a lot of joy to
face a lot of those challenges.
Even as a kid, like, I remember,like, an internal smile I would have
by just having done, done that, donesomething that was really scary to me.
(24:03):
Because I, I do want to look back onmy childhood and, and recognize, All
of the happiness that still was there,because I don't want to completely
not acknowledge the positive thingsthat came with my upbringing as well.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (24:24):
Because all those things can be true, right?
Louis Lee (24:26):
Absolutely.
Steven Wakabayashi (24:27):
We can have a tumultuous time, but also a joyous time.
We can be scared, but also be brave.
And this notion that there is oneflavor that is the dominant one?
Maybe that's what feels at most, right?
Like the one that's taking overemotionally for this phase of
(24:49):
our lives, but all of them can betrue as a part of the experience.
I love what you said about how asadults we're constantly doing things
that we are healing from as child,or just basically our childhood
experiences evolve to the next level.
And a big part of something that I loveis the Enneagram, right, which is the
(25:10):
whole concept of an Enneagram is thereare nine personality types, each of
them is based on a childhood unmet need.
And that we as adults.
Or just yearning, doing things just toget, like, being heard, being loved, and
it all goes back to how did the childmiss out on gaining love, and so we,
(25:32):
basically the nine personality typesis built around, like, I have to act
special, I have to be really smart, Ihave to help others, and so we end up
creating these character types that thenbecome archetypes that we live within,
and I'm just so genuinely curious asyou're doing this work in the corporate
(25:52):
work setting with your business partners,what has come up for you as just like,
oh wow, like, that was really insightful.
Louis Lee (26:01):
I think a big thing for me, now I'm not familiar with the nine personality
types, but I do recognize something thatI'm missing is my own self advocacy.
That's something that I'm like,working through, it's something
that's really new to me.
And I, and I'm excited by that, right?
(26:24):
Like it's like, it's, it's, it is excitingto unveil something that may not have been
serving me, or that has been serving me.
And I think something that I have beendiscovering through the work I'm doing is
I can be a better self advocate to myself,and that's something that I really want
(26:45):
to help others with as well, especially onthe topic of being a queer Asian person.
Like, I think self advocacyis really important for us.
For anyone, but, uh, on thetopic of queer Asian folks, like,
most certainly self advocacy.
Why?
I think, something that my partnersand I say to each other, too,
(27:05):
is no one's coming to save us.
So, we have to be our own self advocates.
Hmm.
And, my partners aside, looking at,the working queer Asian population, You
know, there are harmful stereotypesabout Asians in the workplace that
, probably a lot of us are familiar with.
(27:27):
And for us, I think it's such anopportunity to reject those stereotypes
because we aren't those stereotypes.
And I think one way to do that istruly through self advocacy and really
asking for what we want and what weneed in terms of the workplace setting.
(27:48):
And obviously this can impact yourpersonal life as well with your
relationships and friendships.
So, you know, there's so many reasonsfor why self advocacy is super important.
And for me, knowing how to self advocateis something that I'm excited to continue
to learn and that I, in many ways, wantto advocate for others to learn as well.
Steven Wakabayashi (28:15):
I have two follow ups.
The first one is how do you know you weretalking about things that don't serve you?
How do you know whensomething isn't serving you?
Louis Lee (28:26):
That's
a great question.
How do I know when something isn't servingme is if I feel that there is a moment
where it's not propelling me forward.
And sometimes you canbe unconscious of it.
Right, like something I became awareof early on as a business owner is
(28:52):
I may have been more comfortablebeing in the shadow or like in the
backseat where that didn't serve me.
I am one of the business owners.
The work that we create, a lot of it issomething I'm responsible for as well.
Like I should be able to speak to it.
(29:13):
So being sort of in that background orperhaps internalize something that wasn't
serving me was perhaps like, Oh, I thoughtmaybe I needed to be in the backseat
or being the supporting character.
Exactly.
That there was a point where I recognizedthat that isn't doing me any favors.
(29:35):
That most certainly isn't self advocacyand also not great for my own visibility.
Like I am an owner of the business.
I need to show up in that way.
Also show up as a partner to my partners.
So.
I think breaking out of what I mayhave operated in this own type of
(30:00):
internalized stereotype within myself issomething that I need to break through.
Steven Wakabayashi (30:05):
Where do you think it came from?
Louis Lee (30:07):
That moment?
Steven Wakabayashi (30:08):
Yeah, I mean like where do you think it came from?
This, also, this, this, this.
Need to fulfill this role, right?
Like to be the supporting character.
Louis Lee (30:19):
It feels like this, this system that was set up that way, right?
Like I think I didn't realize Iwas operating within that system.
Like, I simply felt this is how itusually is or how it should be, but
when I'm in the meeting and there's aclient or prospective client where I
(30:41):
might not have said anything at that timethroughout the whole meeting and they at
the end are asking, who is that person?
That's not right, right?
Like it's like I shouldn't be someonethat is at the end of the meeting
someone's wondering who I am orwhat role I played in something.
(31:02):
And that was a turning point for mebecause I realized I was operating
within that stereotype of a quietAsian worker rather than what I
know is true within me, which is no,I'm actually a very vocal person.
(31:26):
I can speak to my own work.
And I am an owner of this business.
So that moment for me early on whenI was owning this business, when
that prospective client kind of likebrought up, you know, the, who are you?
Not in a negative way, justin a genuine curiosity.
(31:49):
It just brought that up in me where Iasked myself those questions inside.
And from that moment, I said to myself,like, I'm going to work on this.
And everything leading after that, I'mgoing to work on making myself more
visible, that my voice is significant,and it is something that I want to
(32:12):
combat in terms of rejecting whateverstereotypes that people might hold.
I genuinely feel people don't meanto have that malicious intent.
I just feel like culturally, especiallyin the Western setting, it's
something that we all operate in.
(32:35):
Like the other day, literally yesterday,talking to my husband, he was talking
to me about an instance with a co workerwho's also an Asian man, and they talk
about, this stereotype and they encourageeach other to ask for what you want.
(32:56):
And I think that's why we do needto talk about it with fellow,
especially fellow queer Asian folk.
Is we can relate to it with each otherand also just give each other the
boost of saying, ask for what you want.
You know, people, peoplewill hopefully listen.
But they won't ever know withoutasking and we can't change anything.
(33:18):
We can't change the system without,without us doing some of the
work of advocating for ourselves.
Steven Wakabayashi (33:26):
Why do you think it's hard for us to ask and advocate?
Louis Lee (33:31):
That's a great question, and if I can be rhetorical about it, what do you,
why do you think it's hard for us to ask?
You know, I think you and I, like,especially found a moment where we're
like, we need to go break out into ourown and build our own thing, right?
(33:51):
So, You know, I'm curious to knowalso from you, like, what made you
feel that you needed to do that?
Steven Wakabayashi (33:58):
Yeah, so two points come up for me.
I think the first point is,you had asked, historically, we
build these stereotypes, right?
And one thing that I learned, Iwas reading books about this, and
it's culminated through a bunch ofdifferent books and kind of a theme,
has also been Asian immigration early,early on here in the United States.
(34:23):
Started by a lot of military folks,right, bringing wives over, and there
was this whole culture of submission.
That was quite literally groomed intothe Asian perspective of Asian people,
not because this is how Asian people are,but this was because the Asians that they
were exposed to slash they were bringingback from Asia into America as wives
(34:49):
at the time were a type of personalitythat they had picked for, right?
And then you had media being createdabout the Asian folks that were here, and
it was actually really healing to read alot about this because it was adding so
many layers of context into it, right?
In the workplace, there were somany instances when World War
II, for example, you had Asianswho weren't submissive to the U.
(35:13):
S.
government, II.
they had their citizenship rescindedand you had a whole generation
of people who were even U.
S.
born Japanese Americans with nocitizenship because they didn't submit
to, I think they had to have theseJapanese folks declare Japan as an
(35:35):
enemy of the state of America andthey didn't agree with that so then
they had their citizenship rescindedbut then they ended up corralling
all of them into internment camps.
And the way that they framed itwas, you would go to an internment
camp because this is how you'regoing to support our country, right?
And so, then they lost everything,businesses, jobs, livelihoods, homes.
(35:59):
And, and it's interesting to look back atthis past, and you have generations past,
where now even to have a citizenship as animmigrant, You have to fulfill a certain
type of role, criteria, you can't evengo to jail because that will compromise
your citizenship and stuff like that.
And so actually, I want to start offwith this because this gave me so
(36:22):
much more understanding into why thestereotype existed in a way that I
could build more compassion around it.
You know, I think the first step, formyself at least, was Just the pushing
away of it, but really understandingand having grace with it, because I
was seeing this show up with like mymom, you know, and all these other
(36:44):
people within their community members,and I was also so angry about it.
I was like, why are we like this?
You know, . Yeah.
I was like, I don't getwhy we're like this.
Yeah.
And the more I understood, Isaid, this is because we were
told we have to be like this.
Yeah.
Otherwise we can't stay in America.
We don't have a citizenship.
can't exist.
(37:05):
Yeah.
Um, and then the other part was whyI ended up starting my own agency was
I was in the corporate world, right?
Listening to everyone, takingall this advice and working
really, really, really hard.
I recall wherever I was at,I was working harder than so
(37:26):
many of the people there, even.
Leadership levels, one, two,three levels above me, you know?
Yeah.
And even when I branched off and I wasstill freelancing on my own, it was so
hard to compel people who are more oftenwhite folks, straight, uh, cisgender men.
(37:50):
Um, usually you see this, especiallyin the creative advertising industry.
Yup.
And convince them why I was worthwhatever I was worth, right?
Yeah.
What was interesting was even, so I recallspecifically, vividly, um, there was a,
an opportunity that came up and it wasfreelancing with this other agency and I
had already done work with them, right?
(38:12):
And they were just passing me over tosomebody else at the time I had already
led some of the projects internally andthey would just give me a budget and there
would be like Steven figure it out, right?
And even having worked with otherpeople, and the person who I was
interviewing with, it was herbudget, and so, new person, but it
was with all these other people.
(38:34):
I've been in so many interviews, and thisisn't just one of them, but specifically
in this one, she was asking me suchtactical questions about portfolio,
resume, and after having been in thisindustry for like 15, 16, 17 years, like,
I think, I think, and then, and then justbeing asked some of the questions that,
(38:55):
like, I would be advising on somebodyjust entering the industry, right?
You know, there's some questionsaround, like, getting more
specific, like, oh, have you everbuilt a design system, right?
And it was just so, I was like, I, Idon't understand how I can be doing the
work that I'm doing if I haven't eventouched some of these things, right?
Right.
I've been in so many instances where I'vehad interviews, and it's interesting how
(39:19):
I've shared this experience with so manypeople, and they're like, no, Steven,
they're just genuinely asking that.
And I'm like, would you haveasked that to a white applicant?
Would you have asked that toa straight white applicant,
straight male white applicant?
You know, it's interestingto see a juxtaposition.
I would actually see that applicant beingso offended in that meeting and people
(39:41):
wouldn't ask these people certain thingsbecause they take for granted or they
accept as if you have this position,you'd already have done this, right?
And so going back to why even myself andwhy I, and I just had this conversation
like this week of why even myself in acorporate setting, I really struggled was
(40:03):
I just kept hitting this glass ceilingand it wasn't even me having to prove by
doing the work, even after having done thework, people just who weren't willing to
see my worth, there was nothing I coulddo to prove to them, you know, and I think
this is advice that I rarely see that isa big part of our nonprofit of what we
(40:26):
share, working with queer BIPOC folks.
Sometimes there's advice that's givento us that we shouldn't be following,
namely, if there's questions that'sasked of us, right, of things that
is far beyond, like we've done farbeyond, that there are some things
that hold us back, which is also otherpeople's expectations of us, you know?
(40:48):
Yeah.
And that we actually have to reframesome of the questions that's asked,
formulate in a way that's more successful.
But anyway, I end up turning thatopportunity down because I was like,
and that was a big realization moment,I was like, I can't work under somebody
who I'm going to have to fight teethand nail on the smallest things.
Louis Lee (41:08):
And continue that same storm, right?
And like, the history of what youshared and how it's so entrenched in
our culture, especially our workplaceculture to this day, so alive and
well is also why I just relate to yourstory of of hitting that glass ceiling.
(41:33):
So my now business partner and I, wewere working together in a corporate
setting, and there are great people there.
Like, I don't want to make it sound likewe weren't grateful for the opportunity
or the experience there, but we justrecognize that there are a lot of
things that we cannot change becauseof how the, just the largeness of the
(41:57):
cultural shift that needs to happen.
Yeah.
So that's why we wanted to go off andfind our own, establish our own business.
Together.
Steven Wakabayashi (42:06):
We almost have to like, we literally have to right.
To exist, you know?
Louis Lee (42:11):
Yeah.
And, and, and to take that opportunityto then craft our own culture where
there isn't that feeling of a glassceiling for whatever identity you are.
So, that's what motivated us to go offand find Bellweather and to re establish
(42:34):
and rewrite what the culture can be.
We weren't gonna do thatin a corporate setting.
So we, took it in our own hands, verymuch like you did, to work on creating
something that would bring voices tothe table that are typically overlooked,
or that may have been, whether it'sintentional or unintentional, and, you
(42:57):
know, through that journey of rewritingwhat the workplace could look like,
we, of course, You stumble along theway because there's so much you have
to unlearn and unpack to re establish.
But if you aren't making mistakesalong the way, then I don't know
if you can really authentically saywhat's working and what's not working.
(43:20):
So, you know, that's why we wantedto find our own business together, my
partner and I, and, you know, sincethen we've had another partner join us.
But it really is just, we A, hit theglass ceiling, my woman partner and
I, like, for many reasons, eitherdeserving title upgrades or, you know,
(43:42):
personally for me, I saw, you know, alot of, not within this company, but I
saw a lot of my white male counterpartswho can't arguably say they have more
skills or anything compared to me.
Steven Wakabayashi (43:55):
Oh, do you see the trajectory literally, right?
Like, skyrocket.
Like, even
Louis Lee (44:00):
to this day, they're like, Oh, I just like, threw out this idea and I
got a whole bunch of money from my client.
And the things that my partners and I haveto do to ask for the budgets they get.
It's like, we have to do a greatdog and pony show to get the kind of
clients that I might see my other peersthat are white male counterparts get.
(44:25):
Listen, I'm happy for them,I love them, but it is that
Steven Wakabayashi (44:30):
reality.
So, Call a spade a spade.
And we've seen it.
You and I have seen it.
We're literally, we are workingso hard, tirelessly in a corporate
setting, even going above and beyond.
And then I think what a lot of peopledon't realize is you reach a certain
threshold beyond just production, right?
(44:51):
But once you want to start working tostart managing teams or going into any
leadership, It really is who's gonna vouchfor you and who's gonna create space for
you and who's willing to pull you along.
And when the leadership is allmen, all white men, like they, they
somehow feel this, this empathy toother people who look like them.
(45:15):
And that's why diversity, especiallyin a leadership capacity is so
important because that empathy isneeded, but is needed especially
through other people who look like us.
Have experiences like us.
That's tough.
Oh my god, it's easy.
It's tough.
Louis Lee (45:33):
Yeah, it really is and you know, it goes back to this is why it's
so important and I hope that other,if there's anything that can resonate
with queer Asian folks out there itis you have to ask for what you want.
It doesn't do any harm to not ask.
(45:54):
Yeah.
It might do a little bit more harm to you,actually, if you don't even try to ask.
Steven Wakabayashi (45:59):
Hmm.
Because the worst thatcould happen is a no, right?
Exactly.
We're already taking that by walking away.
Louis Lee (46:08):
Exactly.
And.
I think there's nothing incredibly uniqueabout me or, you know, that I feel is,
wow, this is what makes me so specialthat I could go off and create a business.
It just takes a little bravery andaudacity to say, I'm just going to try it.
(46:29):
I'm going to ask for what I want.
and see what happens, cause the flipside is I could always go back into the
corporate setting or go work for someone.
Like I, I, we all have that as apotential option to go back to.
Steven Wakabayashi (46:48):
Okay, let me
ask.
Louis Lee (46:49):
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (46:49):
So for folks who are listening and it's just hard.
Like, what recommendations oradvice would you have for either
entrepreneurial girlies, corporategirlies, or just, like, life girlies?
Like, asking, because what I'vealso heard is, you know, this
whole notion of humbleness,humility is so important, right?
(47:11):
The whole people bag or they're just like,no, it's going to be a flat out no, so why
even bother, you know, many, many takes.
But do you have any advice for themof how to get better at putting
themselves out there and asking?
Louis Lee (47:25):
You just have to keep doing it.
And I think what people areactually afraid of is rejection.
And I think I think a part of the journeyof being in the workplace setting is you
need to get comfortable with rejection.
(47:47):
That doesn't mean that youshould ever stop trying.
I can't tell you how many pitches thatmy partners and I have gone after.
And the amount of time, weget rejected more than we win.
New projects, new business.
You have to just, like, be okay with that.
That is part of the process.
(48:08):
We are incrementally movingthe needle every time, though.
Every time we interview, everytime we ask for something we
want, the needle is moving.
That is how we have grownto what we are today.
So, for anyone out there, not justthe business entrepreneur folk or, but
also the people in the environmentsof corporate, perhaps smaller
(48:30):
environments, You can only just keepasking because we really have to ask
ourselves, what is the alternative?
Not asking means you're gonnajust stay exactly where you are.
Which if you are comfortable with that,if you are in a place where you're
comfortable with where you are, I don'twant to push people into believing
(48:51):
that they have to ask for more.
But if you're someone that isn't happywith where you are in your current
station, then, It really truly doesn'thurt to just keep trying, and keep
asking, and what you do need to do isalso find a community of people, what
I like to call a personal board ofdirectors, to go to and say, I'd love to
(49:13):
just ask for advice, you know, I'm goingthrough this in the workplace, like,
can you help me navigate this situation?
I love doing that for people.
Like I love when women or other people ofcolor reach out to me just asking for what
they should ask for in terms of a salary.
(49:33):
I've helped navigate negotiations fora lot of my close friends or people
that I've just met professionally.
I'm happy to do that work and givethat advice and hopefully for them
to get what they want out of it.
So In addition to advocating for yourself,finding that group of people or, again,
(49:55):
what I call that personal board ofdirectors, I think it's really important
for people that are really interestedin growth throughout their career.
So find that, establish that communityand what that might look like for you.
But, I am such a believer that You know,not everything can just be done alone.
(50:15):
We really need to get back to believingin the idea that community in a
village is what lifts everyone up.
So, so find those people, find thosegood friends that you can really trust
their advice on, and then just go for it.
Cause at least you have people thatare like cheerleaders for you, that are
(50:35):
gassing you up to go talk to your boss.
Or to help write a greatemail, uh, saying, Hey, can I
talk to you about something?
Whatever it might be, it helpsto have that personal board of
directors that are with you, behindyou, to help push you forward.
Steven Wakabayashi (50:54):
Yeah.
And if you ask somebody for advice onthese things and they do not gas you
up, that is such a red flag for me.
Huge.
Right?
Yeah.
Huge.
Like, these are not the people youshould be surrounding yourself with,
because they're all about ensuringyou stay little, even regardless of
work, even in personal life, right?
(51:16):
Relationships.
Louis Lee (51:17):
Yep.
I've seen that too, firsthand in theprofessional setting where someone gave
that advice to another person to, to notcome out public about being a voice behind
this really, really amazing platform.
They ended up deciding, you know what?
I'm not going to listen to that advice.
(51:37):
I'm going to say, I am theperson behind this platform.
And they ended up selling thecompany for a significant amount
of money and they are thriving.
So the people that say that give youthat type of lack of support or that
don't push you or that don't give youthat advice to propel you forward.
(52:02):
They're absolutely someoneto not ever go back to again.
It's, it's not someone thathas ever been a friend.
Uh, most certainly not someone you shouldever go back to professional advice on.
Because real people that believe in youwill support you and say, go for it.
It doesn't hurt to try, but anyone thattries to quiet you or say, step back a
(52:27):
little bit, yeah, not, not your friend.
And I, and that, that's reallyimportant and I'm really glad
that you brought that up.
Steven Wakabayashi (52:34):
Yeah, it could also be family members, right?
It could be relatives.
Absolutely.
And I think I've experienced this afew times and my friends are also going
through this where you might have justall so outgrown relationships, you
know, and you have a different phasesof your life that you enter through and
(52:56):
not everyone comes along with you, youknow, but also people do shift over time
and things come up with them, right?
Like in my sphere, I think onething that is pretty big and
resonant is I spent a ton of yearsjust in the weeds with partying.
I was like out like four or five timesa week and I do have a chunk of friends
(53:18):
that have come with me through thatera into this next era of my life but I
also had a chunk of friends that I wastalking about these things I wanted to
go after, communities I wanted to build,businesses I wanted to create, and their
whole notion was, well that doesn'tsound fun, you know, and I think for many
(53:39):
years I've tried to reconcile that andmy talk that I have in my head was I was
like, well, if these are important peoplein my life, but they don't agree, then
it shouldn't be something I go after.
And I didn't realize how thatnarrative was really holding me back.
And I talked about it on my podcast alot where I had health issues and that
(53:59):
was an awakening moment where I realizedpeople who didn't have the capacity
couldn't show up for me there, right?
Yeah.
Which was a lot of people in that spaceand I think as we evolve naturally,
I think advice that had really helpedme was when the relationships around
us start to look like they're shiftingor we have to re evaluate, right?
(54:24):
It means change is happening, for betteror for worse, and it is indicative
that we are growing in a way, andcreating space and compassion to
hear what is really important to us.
Louis Lee (54:39):
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (54:39):
And it's such an important aspect of growth.
Louis Lee (54:45):
And I, I have so much empathy for people that may not be
able to recognize that, that that'swhat's happening is, we talked about
this a little earlier, is how doyou know what's not serving you?
And so, you know, my sympathy goes outfor those people that just might be
surrounded by the wrong type of peoplethat don't advocate for or support their
(55:10):
friends or loved one as they should be.
So again, choose your board ofdirect, personal board of directors.
And I don't mean that in likea cringy, like, Everyone should
be a business type friend.
That's like counsel, advisors, right?
Right.
And everything in your personallife, cause you know, that
saying where your friends areyour mirrors, it's really true.
(55:33):
Like they should reflect the kindof person that you want to be.
Steven Wakabayashi (55:37):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (55:37):
So.
You know, this is why I'm soexcited to meet other queer Asian,
especially business owner typepeople like yourself, because I can
only see benefits coming from that.
Like it can only see goodness of reallyhelping each other out and supporting
each other and, you know, relyingon this network, uh, to seek advice
(56:03):
and to help each other all thrive.
Yeah, I think.
Only greatness can come from that, and Ionly want to see people do really well.
I don't imagine a scenario whereI don't want someone to do well.
Like, anyone that I can identifywith, or identifies with me, anything
(56:24):
I can do to help them on their comeup, like, I want to be part of that.
Steven Wakabayashi (56:30):
And you realize that when people aren't afraid to give,
and aren't afraid for people to comeup, these are the people that you will
also start to emulate, you know, andyou become more like, and we all, like,
it's beyond scarcity mindset, it's theawareness that there is so much out there
(56:52):
that we can help, like a rising tiderises, like raises all boats, right?
It's similar to that, where it's likea boat with a giant gaping hole, like
you can only carry so much, right?
And I think, I think we areso very much like the person
you surround yourselves with.
And I'm very grateful for our conversationand, uh, it's just, you have such a
(57:20):
breadth of knowledge and insight, andIt's just really, it's really great
to also see other folks, other queerAsian folks, thriving, excelling.
You and I have worked on many similarthings together and hope our listeners
are getting so much out of it.
We get it.
(57:41):
It's hard.
It's hard out there.
Louis Lee (57:43):
It's hard.
And, you know, I think.
You know, I keep going back to wantingto just tell people I truly feel there
isn't anything incredibly unique about me.
There's no special superpower.
It really is just a littlebit of audacity and hard work.
(58:04):
Like, just putting in a little bit of thatextra elbow grease, a little more hustle.
But of course, making sureyour life is balanced.
You gotta take care of yourself too.
You can't just be about the hustle.
That will burn you out and makethe whole experience not joyful.
So, you know, I also want to pair thejourney with, yes, you got a hard, you
(58:28):
got to put in the work and the grind, butmake sure that you're also taking care
of yourself, like vacation time, timeoff, that stuff is still very important.
Um, so especially with the.
Younger audiences that are just enteringthe workforce, work and work and work,
but also make sure you are playing.
(58:51):
Make sure you're eating all your meals.
Have time to exercise and to get breathof fresh air and to spend quality
time with people you care about.
So, you know, that's also partof the culture that I want to
create is giving that flexibilityof people living their life.
Like, I really don't wantpeople to tell me I need to go
(59:16):
to the doctors for XYZ reason.
You don't need to tell me any of that.
You can, all you need to say is, I'mdone with my work and I'm gonna take
this time to go to an appointment.
That's all you need to say.
Um, so, you know, to, you know, anyoneout there, it's like, definitely make
sure you're taking care of yourselftoo through this journey of hustling.
Steven Wakabayashi (59:40):
Yeah, I know we're nearing the end.
A few quick questions for you.
Louis Lee (59:46):
Sure.
Steven Wakabayashi (59:46):
What is one lesson you'd like our
listeners to take away with?
Louis Lee (59:53):
If there's anything that you can walk away from, from hearing this
conversation, it really is You are verycapable, you just have to be brave and
take the leap, advocate for yourself.
It never hurts to ask for what you want.
The worst that can happenis someone will say no.
(01:00:15):
Keep trying.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:00:18):
And what is something that's bringing you some joy lately?
Louis Lee (01:00:23):
A lot of things
are bringing me joy lately.
Uh, work wise.
We've been in on set for the past monthfor multiple client photo and video
production, which means to me thatreally soon a lot of large campaigns are
rolling out for my team at Bellweather.
Um, and then personally, justbeing freshly and newly married has
(01:00:46):
brought an immense amount of joy.
So on the personal front, uh, justsharing this life journey with my partner.
And also the beautiful and wonderfulpeople that showed up for us on our day.
I'm, uh, feeling a lot of joythrough just, yeah, all those
(01:01:06):
people that showed up for us.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:01:08):
And how can people find you?
Louis Lee (01:01:11):
Personally, uh, for me, find me on LinkedIn.
Uh, I'm Louis Lee on, on LinkedIn.
If you have any questions that I canhelp out with, In terms of professional
advice, find me there, DM me, um, onInstagram, our Bellweather Agency,
it's @bellweatheragency, and thenour website, www.bellweather.agency.
(01:01:35):
And then I'm sure you can find my contactthrough there, so if you want to reach
out to me directly, feel free to doso, if there's any way I can help you.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:01:42):
Thank you so much.
And for folks who are listening,if you enjoyed this episode, feel
free to leave us a rating review.
Actually, I will ask toleave a rating review.
They are a way that helps the platformsthat we're on see our episodes and
your reviews and your kind words.
Help others discover yellow glitter.
(01:02:04):
If you want to follow us, followus @yellowglitterpd, uh, on socials
and give us a shout and let us knowwhat you want to hear more of and
listen to some clips and for fullepisodes, transcripts, you can visit
our website at yellow glitter podcast.
com.
Louis, I just want to say thank youso much for being on the podcast.
(01:02:28):
You've provided a ton of greatinsights and just so much empathy
for everything that I've experiencedand I've gone through and so thank
you for echoing that and just I thinkoverall you have such a calm, soothing
demeanor and it's just a breath of justtranquil air and so that I appreciate
(01:02:51):
you so much for being on with us.
Louis Lee (01:02:54):
Thank you so much, Steven, for having me and again, creating
this platform to really unite alot of queer Asian folks out there.
You know, thank you for having me.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:03:05):
Thank you.
And for those of you listening,thank you for your time.
So grateful we got to spend abig part of your day with us.
And without further ado, we hopeyou have a great rest of your day.
Be mindful.
Ask for things.
And put yourself out thereand we'll chat with you later.
(01:03:29):
Bye now.
I remember even as a child.
In situations that would make meuncomfortable or that I was scared of
or that would be such a challenge to me,I've remembered so distinctly, and I do
this now, where I whispered to myself,like, "be brave, be brave, be brave".
I think through that revisiting ofmy childhood and that upbringing,
(00:23):
a way for me to find healing hasbeen through also recognizing how
proud I am of myself and the childI was to have made it through that.
All of those identities, all thosecultures, all of that code switching
to survive and to, to keep making it.
(00:43):
Like I'm, I'm proud of that part.
And I think that's a way for me to notown the trauma, but to acknowledge it, but
also to find the joy and also the powerof how it led to the person I am now.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:18):
Hi everyone, my name is Steven Wakabayashi and
you're listening to Yellow Glitter,perspectives from queer Asian creatives
and change makers making an impact.
This episode we're joined by anextra special guest, Louis Lee.
Louis is the chief creative officer andco founder of Bellweather, a strategy
led creative agency that specializes intransforming legacy brands In the non
(01:39):
profit healthcare and travel sector,Louis is passionate about helping
brands thrive in an ever changinglandscape, particularly by expanding and
diversifying audiences, including women,people of color, and Gen Z, ensuring
that brands not only grow but remainrelevant in their competitive markets.
Though Louis calls New York City home,he carries his Midwestern roots with
(02:02):
pride, having been born and raised in St.
Louis, Missouri.
His journey as a queer asian creativehas been shaped by his experiences
in the vibrant communities he's beena part of, fueling his dedication
to fostering inclusivity andcreativity in all that he does.
Welcome to the show.
Louis Lee (02:21):
Thank you for having me, Steven.
Steven Wakabayashi (02:23):
Thank you.
So excited for our conversation.
You and I met months ago, actually, now,uh, we were at an event with one of our
friends, Tai, who's been on the podcastcelebrating his birthday, and we were
just sitting in proximity with each other,Tai had introduced us together, and once
(02:45):
we started talking, I felt like you aresuch a, almost like a long time friend.
For many years, we're both in the agencyspace, creating our projects, we're
doing work that we think is communitycentered, impact driven work, and
I was just, I just really loved ourconversation and you creating space, and
(03:06):
I was like, yes, like, let's bring it onthe podcast one, but I was like, I want
to get to know more of you as a person.
You're just like, so cool.
So down to earth andjust a kind, kind soul.
Louis Lee (03:18):
Well, the feelings were completely mutual.
I think we ended up talkingmostly to each other that night.
But it's not just being in acreative space, like we're also
both queer Asian business owners.
which further really narrows kind ofhow we could relate to each other.
(03:39):
Um, so it truly felt like this, uh,I remember us saying to each other,
or at least I said to you, thisalmost the universe really wanted
to bring us together that night.
And especially in that moment forme when I really needed someone that
could just relate to me, it felt almostcosmic that we had met and it's been
really awesome getting to know you too.
Steven Wakabayashi (04:01):
Same, same.
And the news for you, uh, youjust recently got married, right?
Yeah, I did.
What was that like?
What had
happened?
Louis Lee (04:13):
Well, It's crazy because I've been with my now husband for 10 years
before we got married last week, and alot of people told us and even to each
other were like, what could really feeldifferent after being together this long?
It's probably just going to feel thesame, but it really did feel different.
(04:34):
We might just be in our honeymoonphase, but I feel an incredible
amount of security, you know, justbeing legally recognized as a union
with this person that I've beenin a relationship with 10 years.
There's so many reasons for why we wantedto mark 10 years of being together by
getting married, but also, it's justin many things practical, like I just
(05:00):
can't imagine anyone making healthcaredecisions for me if it ever came to that,
knock on wood, but it, it, it, therehas been this feeling and this shift and
it, and it feels great to, uh, solidifyor pour concrete into our relationship
with, uh, with getting married.
Steven Wakabayashi (05:19):
Yeah.
So the question I have that maybe somepeople are also thinking 10 years.
Did you think about it earlier on?
Like, what was your thoughts onmarriage going into the relationship?
And what was the turning momentwhen you're like, let's get married?
Was there something that hadhappened that made you reflect and
(05:41):
go, like, we just got to do it now?
Louis Lee (05:44):
That is a great question.
For us going into our relationship,even from the early onset, we felt
really committed to each other.
So there was never this feeling of needingto rush because in the grand scheme of
eternity, everything still felt early.
(06:06):
Even saying I've been with my husband for10 years still feels like there's so many
more years to enjoy and to look ahead to.
So there was never that rush.
And also us being in New York City,me running a business, He's a really
(06:28):
ambitious corporate girly, as we call it.
We didn't really have that time to reflectand it just sort of quickly flashed by.
It felt like yesterday that we still met.
So it really just has been this whirlwindof living our life professionally
(06:49):
developing, and then us sort ofstopping and realizing we should talk
about what's next in our relationship.
And I think a key point in me in termsof when I wanted to propose, which was
eight years of being together, so it wasabout two years ago, was Me realizing
(07:09):
and reflecting that this is incrediblyserious and I need to tell my parents
about this relationship because actuallyin the eight years of us being together
at that time, they really didn'tknow about my personal life because
of many factors that we'll get into.
(07:31):
And I told them I've been inthis relationship with this
man for eight years now.
It's really serious.
And with that sharing and, you know,with the challenges with my relationship
with my parents, I wanted to be honestwith them and also solidify my commitment
(07:55):
to my now husband by proposing to him.
Um, so it was a mix of severalevents that made it feel like
the right time when I proposed.
And, for us, it we decided to just waita couple more years to hit that 10 year
mark so that we can immortalize whatwe did for our 10 years of being in
(08:19):
a relationship by getting married, sothat's kind of how it all panned out.
Steven Wakabayashi (08:24):
Wow well, I have to ask, you know, what was
that experience like when youwere telling your family about it
Louis Lee (08:36):
It's very much like my coming out, it was over
the phone there back in St.
Louis, and I've, since graduatingschool, have always lived away from St.
Louis, whether it was Chicago or NewYork City or where I went to school.
I, of course, am someone that wouldhave loved the interaction to be in
(08:58):
person, but Sometimes things justhappen where you're on the phone
with somebody, the conversationleads from one thing to another.
I am recalling that we were talkingspecifically about holiday plans.
So, over the past 8 years, even 10years of our relationship, Reggie
(09:19):
and I, when it comes to holidaytimes, it can be challenging for us
because, we both have parents thataren't accepting of our relationship.
So it's usually the time we often goto each other's respective hometowns.
And I remember my mom or mydad, my parent, asking about
(09:45):
my holiday plan that year.
And what led to me telling them aboutmy relationship is, I don't think
I'm gonna come home or come to St.
Louis this year because I wantto spend it with my family.
And it turned into, what family?
We are your family.
(10:06):
Which led to me saying, you are myfamily, but I also have my own family now.
You know, I have, I had this man, Reggie.
I have a dog with this man, like, weare a family, and this is my family, and
I want to spend the holiday with him.
(10:27):
So, that, that's how the conversationkind of emerged with me, not
coming out, coming out, but justsharing that I'm in a relationship.
Steven Wakabayashi (10:39):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (10:40):
Because I had come out to them years prior, also over the phone.
Yeah.
And also in very similarcircumstances, just us.
Catching up and then it's sort of justcoming up that way in this organic way.
So, you know, that of coursecreated a tension with my
parents as it's always have.
(11:00):
But yeah, that's how, the news sort ofcame out to my parents that I've been
in this relationship and, you know,Reggie is my husband, is also in a
similar situation and that's somethingthat we navigate together continually.
Steven Wakabayashi (11:19):
Hmm.
How's the relationship?
on the topic changed since the two years.
Have they asked about it?
Have they been curious?
What has it been like navigatingleading up to the marriage
and even after marriage?
Louis Lee (11:34):
It's still a, this, we, Reggie and I describe it to people as
uh, don't ask, don't tell situation.
It's very much like that way.
It's like a no fly zone.
Steven Wakabayashi (11:45):
Hmm.
They're still figuring out
Louis Lee (11:47):
with you.
Right.
Like their reaction to it, yeah.
And, you know, unfortunately, becausewe have that distance between us, the
physical distance, there really isn'tmany opportunities to have conversations
without either my parents or myself takingthat proactivity of making a connection
via a phone call, uh, a phone chat.
(12:12):
With that, the conversations areso far and few between that it's,
it just doesn't get brought up.
Steven Wakabayashi (12:22):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (12:22):
And it's, over the past two years, I haven't been going back to my
hometown as frequently because of how muchmore of family events are now centered
around Reggie and myself or meeting upinstead my sister who doesn't live in St.
(12:44):
Louis.
So our holidays have, are starting toevolve with, we can call it a chosen
family even though my sister is myblood relative and I have nephews.
So we're forming newtraditions with family.
It just doesn't include our parents.
And that's something thatis more of them missing out.
(13:09):
You know what I mean?
Like we are really excited.
And, you know, my siblings orReggie siblings, sibling is also
really excited by us formingthese new traditions together.
And what we see as a future together asa family and what our holidays can look
(13:31):
like and we all know holiday time can bereally It can come with a lot of tension
and a lot of, a lot of feelings for manyindividuals, especially queer folks.
So, yeah, so, you know, I haven't had areal opportunity to sit with my parents
(13:52):
and to continue the conversation.
But right now I'm just protectingmy joy and this kind of love
bubble I'm in with my husband.
When the right time comes, I hope thatwe, or myself, can at least bring it
up, and it's not seeking acceptancefrom them, because I never want them
(14:17):
to feel I'm trying to change theirmindset on anything, but for me it's
always about being honest with myself.
So coming out to them again with, nowI'm married, has less to do with how
they feel, and a lot more to do withhow I respect my relationship and
(14:39):
how my joy isn't determined by them.
Steven Wakabayashi (14:41):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (14:42):
Uh, and it is truly a respect to my relationship and myself
and just getting them to know thatthis is where I'm currently at.
Now, I don't want it to sound like Idisrespect them in any way, but I, I
also want to know, I also want to letthe people that have raised me and
(15:03):
that have brought me into this world.
To know that, hey, this is, thisis, this is who this person is.
Yeah.
A part of me wants them toat least know that much.
Steven Wakabayashi (15:20):
I mean, it's a, it's a huge theme on the podcast and
this navigation of Asian identitiesand Asian background and also the layer
of the United States and culturally,especially in the Midwest, like it's not
like as accepting as many coastal cities.
(15:41):
Right.
And there's just so many, evenlike for myself, I was raised in
an area that was about 45 minutes.
uh, east of Los Angeles and it was soconservative and nobody was out and
it's so funny that there's so manymore people who were actually like
queer and out and just took many years.
(16:04):
It's, it's, it's so fascinating tosee how we all come to the same space
of this desire to be free, but tobe free is also to reconcile how we
navigate these situations becausewe still are tied to it, right?
Your family still lives there.
Absolutely.
Um, you still have to go back.
(16:27):
To just show face, right?
To still keep that relationship.
Yeah.
But we can never, we can never getrid of the past and the history of
how we were raised, our upbringing,and a big part of our healing is
also reconciling that relationship.
Absolutely.
And formulating a newrelationship with it.
(16:47):
A new way forward with it, andit is very healing and very
hard work to do, you know?
Louis Lee (16:57):
It really is, and, you know, you talking about that, it's a lot of code
switching that we had to do growing up.
Like, we're talking about beingborn to Korean immigrants.
Yeah, that is an identitythere being in the Midwest.
Steven Wakabayashi (17:18):
Mm
Louis Lee (17:19):
hmm.
Where the Asian communityor population is very small.
Steven Wakabayashi (17:23):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (17:24):
So that's another identity to navigate.
Are they also religious?
My parents are very religious.
Yeah.
So that's another thing to switch into.
I grew up church three times a week.
Reggie also grew up in avery similar situation.
Is three or more types ofservices throughout the week.
(17:44):
Wow.
And then also the queeridentity part of it.
And as a child, not havingany modeling for that.
So we're already listed like four orfive different types of identities or
cultures maybe that we had to navigate.
(18:06):
So that is incredibly challengingfor any child to grow up in.
But to your point as well, looking backon that, as traumatic as it can appear,
I think something that I'm learning aboutlooking back at that and my upbringing
(18:28):
is really, I find healing throughowning how I navigated through that.
That's how I survived growing up.
And the thing that comes up with me is,I remember even as a child, In situations
that would make me uncomfortable orthat I was scared of or that would
(18:54):
be such a challenge to me, I always,I've remembered so distinctly and I
do this now where I whisper to myselflike, be brave, be brave, be brave.
And I remember also, and tothis day I feel this, I often
would feel pride with myself.
(19:16):
Like I give my own like tap onthe shoulder, like you did a
good job by having faced that.
It was
uncomfortable, It wasscary, but you did that.
So I think through that revisiting ofmy childhood and that upbringing, a way
for me to find healing has been throughalso recognizing how proud I am of myself
(19:44):
and
the child I was to havemade it through that.
All of those identities, all of thosecultures, all of that code switching
to survive and to, to keep making it,like I'm, I'm proud of that part and
I think that's a way for me to notown the trauma, but to acknowledge
(20:07):
or just make it feel less painful.
It's, it's a way to own it and toacknowledge it, uh, but also to find.
the joy and also the power of howit led to the person I am now.
Steven Wakabayashi (20:25):
Wow.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
And where do you think you picked upon that, this reminder to be brave?
Where did you pick it up?
Louis Lee (20:39):
I don't recall where I picked it up in childhood, but It's lately
been coming up for me because, uh, onework that I am doing lately is working
with an executive coach, uh, that mypartners and I are working with because
we always want to improve and be betterleaders or business owners and part of
(21:03):
the work that we do is Individually, wekind of look back at our upbringing and
our childhood in order to understand whowe are as leaders to this day, because
a lot
of how we are as adults is still very muchinformed by our childhood experiences.
(21:24):
So with this work that I'm doing, alot of this has come to surface again.
And I've been so open to it becauseit's another opportunity for me to,
A, continue to grow as a person, toimprove how I want to be as a manager,
(21:46):
to people, and how I want to lead.
And obviously all of the personal impactsit has in terms of self discovery,
which for all of us should never end.
We should always be workingon our own self discovery.
Uh, at least from my perspective.
So, I just can't remember as achild where that came from in terms
(22:08):
of me telling myself to do that.
I think, I believe that, like, I'vealways had a lot of ambition growing up.
Like, I've always wantedto be the leader of things.
I've always wanted to be presidentsof the clubs, whatever they are.
That was this almost like natural thingthat came within me and I don't quite know
(22:33):
what it's informed by, like perhaps it is.
Growing up closeted where you wantto control your environment, all that
stuff, perhaps it is a little bit ofthat, but I was genuinely interested
in leadership type roles even as akid, so I think having that ambition,
that personality, must have comewith that aspect of telling myself
(22:57):
to be brave and to just face things.
And, of course, I can recognizethat a lot of that might also be
informed by the harmful things wehear as closeted children growing up.
You know, like, you have to be thisway, otherwise you're going to be
called these kinds of names, right?
(23:18):
And in the fear of being called thosenames, I wanted to challenge myself
so that I rejected those names.
So, of course, there's part ofthat, that I understand may feed
into why I kept telling myselfto be brave, be brave, be brave.
(23:42):
But I do also recognize thatit brought me a lot of joy to
face a lot of those challenges.
Even as a kid, like, I remember,like, an internal smile I would have
by just having done, done that, donesomething that was really scary to me.
(24:03):
Because I, I do want to look back onmy childhood and, and recognize, All
of the happiness that still was there,because I don't want to completely
not acknowledge the positive thingsthat came with my upbringing as well.
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (24:24):
Because all those things can be true, right?
Louis Lee (24:26):
Absolutely.
Steven Wakabayashi (24:27):
We can have a tumultuous time, but also a joyous time.
We can be scared, but also be brave.
And this notion that there is oneflavor that is the dominant one?
Maybe that's what feels at most, right?
Like the one that's taking overemotionally for this phase of
(24:49):
our lives, but all of them can betrue as a part of the experience.
I love what you said about how asadults we're constantly doing things
that we are healing from as child,or just basically our childhood
experiences evolve to the next level.
And a big part of something that I loveis the Enneagram, right, which is the
(25:10):
whole concept of an Enneagram is thereare nine personality types, each of
them is based on a childhood unmet need.
And that we as adults.
Or just yearning, doing things just toget, like, being heard, being loved, and
it all goes back to how did the childmiss out on gaining love, and so we,
(25:32):
basically the nine personality typesis built around, like, I have to act
special, I have to be really smart, Ihave to help others, and so we end up
creating these character types that thenbecome archetypes that we live within,
and I'm just so genuinely curious asyou're doing this work in the corporate
(25:52):
work setting with your business partners,what has come up for you as just like,
oh wow, like, that was really insightful.
Louis Lee (26:01):
I think a big thing for me, now I'm not familiar with the nine personality
types, but I do recognize something thatI'm missing is my own self advocacy.
That's something that I'm like,working through, it's something
that's really new to me.
And I, and I'm excited by that, right?
(26:24):
Like it's like, it's, it's, it is excitingto unveil something that may not have been
serving me, or that has been serving me.
And I think something that I have beendiscovering through the work I'm doing is
I can be a better self advocate to myself,and that's something that I really want
(26:45):
to help others with as well, especially onthe topic of being a queer Asian person.
Like, I think self advocacyis really important for us.
For anyone, but, uh, on thetopic of queer Asian folks, like,
most certainly self advocacy.
Why?
I think, something that my partnersand I say to each other, too,
(27:05):
is no one's coming to save us.
So, we have to be our own self advocates.
Hmm.
And, my partners aside, looking at,the working queer Asian population, You
know, there are harmful stereotypesabout Asians in the workplace that
, probably a lot of us are familiar with.
(27:27):
And for us, I think it's such anopportunity to reject those stereotypes
because we aren't those stereotypes.
And I think one way to do that istruly through self advocacy and really
asking for what we want and what weneed in terms of the workplace setting.
(27:48):
And obviously this can impact yourpersonal life as well with your
relationships and friendships.
So, you know, there's so many reasonsfor why self advocacy is super important.
And for me, knowing how to self advocateis something that I'm excited to continue
to learn and that I, in many ways, wantto advocate for others to learn as well.
Steven Wakabayashi (28:15):
I have two follow ups.
The first one is how do you know you weretalking about things that don't serve you?
How do you know whensomething isn't serving you?
Louis Lee (28:26):
That's
a great question.
How do I know when something isn't servingme is if I feel that there is a moment
where it's not propelling me forward.
And sometimes you canbe unconscious of it.
Right, like something I became awareof early on as a business owner is
(28:52):
I may have been more comfortablebeing in the shadow or like in the
backseat where that didn't serve me.
I am one of the business owners.
The work that we create, a lot of it issomething I'm responsible for as well.
Like I should be able to speak to it.
(29:13):
So being sort of in that background orperhaps internalize something that wasn't
serving me was perhaps like, Oh, I thoughtmaybe I needed to be in the backseat
or being the supporting character.
Exactly.
That there was a point where I recognizedthat that isn't doing me any favors.
(29:35):
That most certainly isn't self advocacyand also not great for my own visibility.
Like I am an owner of the business.
I need to show up in that way.
Also show up as a partner to my partners.
So.
I think breaking out of what I mayhave operated in this own type of
(30:00):
internalized stereotype within myself issomething that I need to break through.
Steven Wakabayashi (30:05):
Where do you think it came from?
Louis Lee (30:07):
That moment?
Steven Wakabayashi (30:08):
Yeah, I mean like where do you think it came from?
This, also, this, this, this.
Need to fulfill this role, right?
Like to be the supporting character.
Louis Lee (30:19):
It feels like this, this system that was set up that way, right?
Like I think I didn't realize Iwas operating within that system.
Like, I simply felt this is how itusually is or how it should be, but
when I'm in the meeting and there's aclient or prospective client where I
(30:41):
might not have said anything at that timethroughout the whole meeting and they at
the end are asking, who is that person?
That's not right, right?
Like it's like I shouldn't be someonethat is at the end of the meeting
someone's wondering who I am orwhat role I played in something.
(31:02):
And that was a turning point for mebecause I realized I was operating
within that stereotype of a quietAsian worker rather than what I
know is true within me, which is no,I'm actually a very vocal person.
(31:26):
I can speak to my own work.
And I am an owner of this business.
So that moment for me early on whenI was owning this business, when
that prospective client kind of likebrought up, you know, the, who are you?
Not in a negative way, justin a genuine curiosity.
(31:49):
It just brought that up in me where Iasked myself those questions inside.
And from that moment, I said to myself,like, I'm going to work on this.
And everything leading after that, I'mgoing to work on making myself more
visible, that my voice is significant,and it is something that I want to
(32:12):
combat in terms of rejecting whateverstereotypes that people might hold.
I genuinely feel people don't meanto have that malicious intent.
I just feel like culturally, especiallyin the Western setting, it's
something that we all operate in.
(32:35):
Like the other day, literally yesterday,talking to my husband, he was talking
to me about an instance with a co workerwho's also an Asian man, and they talk
about, this stereotype and they encourageeach other to ask for what you want.
(32:56):
And I think that's why we do needto talk about it with fellow,
especially fellow queer Asian folk.
Is we can relate to it with each otherand also just give each other the
boost of saying, ask for what you want.
You know, people, peoplewill hopefully listen.
But they won't ever know withoutasking and we can't change anything.
(33:18):
We can't change the system without,without us doing some of the
work of advocating for ourselves.
Steven Wakabayashi (33:26):
Why do you think it's hard for us to ask and advocate?
Louis Lee (33:31):
That's a great question, and if I can be rhetorical about it, what do you,
why do you think it's hard for us to ask?
You know, I think you and I, like,especially found a moment where we're
like, we need to go break out into ourown and build our own thing, right?
(33:51):
So, You know, I'm curious to knowalso from you, like, what made you
feel that you needed to do that?
Steven Wakabayashi (33:58):
Yeah, so two points come up for me.
I think the first point is,you had asked, historically, we
build these stereotypes, right?
And one thing that I learned, Iwas reading books about this, and
it's culminated through a bunch ofdifferent books and kind of a theme,
has also been Asian immigration early,early on here in the United States.
(34:23):
Started by a lot of military folks,right, bringing wives over, and there
was this whole culture of submission.
That was quite literally groomed intothe Asian perspective of Asian people,
not because this is how Asian people are,but this was because the Asians that they
were exposed to slash they were bringingback from Asia into America as wives
(34:49):
at the time were a type of personalitythat they had picked for, right?
And then you had media being createdabout the Asian folks that were here, and
it was actually really healing to read alot about this because it was adding so
many layers of context into it, right?
In the workplace, there were somany instances when World War
II, for example, you had Asianswho weren't submissive to the U.
(35:13):
S.
government, II.
they had their citizenship rescindedand you had a whole generation
of people who were even U.
S.
born Japanese Americans with nocitizenship because they didn't submit
to, I think they had to have theseJapanese folks declare Japan as an
(35:35):
enemy of the state of America andthey didn't agree with that so then
they had their citizenship rescindedbut then they ended up corralling
all of them into internment camps.
And the way that they framed itwas, you would go to an internment
camp because this is how you'regoing to support our country, right?
And so, then they lost everything,businesses, jobs, livelihoods, homes.
(35:59):
And, and it's interesting to look back atthis past, and you have generations past,
where now even to have a citizenship as animmigrant, You have to fulfill a certain
type of role, criteria, you can't evengo to jail because that will compromise
your citizenship and stuff like that.
And so actually, I want to start offwith this because this gave me so
(36:22):
much more understanding into why thestereotype existed in a way that I
could build more compassion around it.
You know, I think the first step, formyself at least, was Just the pushing
away of it, but really understandingand having grace with it, because I
was seeing this show up with like mymom, you know, and all these other
(36:44):
people within their community members,and I was also so angry about it.
I was like, why are we like this?
You know, . Yeah.
I was like, I don't getwhy we're like this.
Yeah.
And the more I understood, Isaid, this is because we were
told we have to be like this.
Yeah.
Otherwise we can't stay in America.
We don't have a citizenship.
can't exist.
(37:05):
Yeah.
Um, and then the other part was whyI ended up starting my own agency was
I was in the corporate world, right?
Listening to everyone, takingall this advice and working
really, really, really hard.
I recall wherever I was at,I was working harder than so
(37:26):
many of the people there, even.
Leadership levels, one, two,three levels above me, you know?
Yeah.
And even when I branched off and I wasstill freelancing on my own, it was so
hard to compel people who are more oftenwhite folks, straight, uh, cisgender men.
(37:50):
Um, usually you see this, especiallyin the creative advertising industry.
Yup.
And convince them why I was worthwhatever I was worth, right?
Yeah.
What was interesting was even, so I recallspecifically, vividly, um, there was a,
an opportunity that came up and it wasfreelancing with this other agency and I
had already done work with them, right?
(38:12):
And they were just passing me over tosomebody else at the time I had already
led some of the projects internally andthey would just give me a budget and there
would be like Steven figure it out, right?
And even having worked with otherpeople, and the person who I was
interviewing with, it was herbudget, and so, new person, but it
was with all these other people.
(38:34):
I've been in so many interviews, and thisisn't just one of them, but specifically
in this one, she was asking me suchtactical questions about portfolio,
resume, and after having been in thisindustry for like 15, 16, 17 years, like,
I think, I think, and then, and then justbeing asked some of the questions that,
(38:55):
like, I would be advising on somebodyjust entering the industry, right?
You know, there's some questionsaround, like, getting more
specific, like, oh, have you everbuilt a design system, right?
And it was just so, I was like, I, Idon't understand how I can be doing the
work that I'm doing if I haven't eventouched some of these things, right?
Right.
I've been in so many instances where I'vehad interviews, and it's interesting how
(39:19):
I've shared this experience with so manypeople, and they're like, no, Steven,
they're just genuinely asking that.
And I'm like, would you haveasked that to a white applicant?
Would you have asked that toa straight white applicant,
straight male white applicant?
You know, it's interestingto see a juxtaposition.
I would actually see that applicant beingso offended in that meeting and people
(39:41):
wouldn't ask these people certain thingsbecause they take for granted or they
accept as if you have this position,you'd already have done this, right?
And so going back to why even myself andwhy I, and I just had this conversation
like this week of why even myself in acorporate setting, I really struggled was
(40:03):
I just kept hitting this glass ceilingand it wasn't even me having to prove by
doing the work, even after having done thework, people just who weren't willing to
see my worth, there was nothing I coulddo to prove to them, you know, and I think
this is advice that I rarely see that isa big part of our nonprofit of what we
(40:26):
share, working with queer BIPOC folks.
Sometimes there's advice that's givento us that we shouldn't be following,
namely, if there's questions that'sasked of us, right, of things that
is far beyond, like we've done farbeyond, that there are some things
that hold us back, which is also otherpeople's expectations of us, you know?
(40:48):
Yeah.
And that we actually have to reframesome of the questions that's asked,
formulate in a way that's more successful.
But anyway, I end up turning thatopportunity down because I was like,
and that was a big realization moment,I was like, I can't work under somebody
who I'm going to have to fight teethand nail on the smallest things.
Louis Lee (41:08):
And continue that same storm, right?
And like, the history of what youshared and how it's so entrenched in
our culture, especially our workplaceculture to this day, so alive and
well is also why I just relate to yourstory of of hitting that glass ceiling.
(41:33):
So my now business partner and I, wewere working together in a corporate
setting, and there are great people there.
Like, I don't want to make it sound likewe weren't grateful for the opportunity
or the experience there, but we justrecognize that there are a lot of
things that we cannot change becauseof how the, just the largeness of the
(41:57):
cultural shift that needs to happen.
Yeah.
So that's why we wanted to go off andfind our own, establish our own business.
Together.
Steven Wakabayashi (42:06):
We almost have to like, we literally have to right.
To exist, you know?
Louis Lee (42:11):
Yeah.
And, and, and to take that opportunityto then craft our own culture where
there isn't that feeling of a glassceiling for whatever identity you are.
So, that's what motivated us to go offand find Bellweather and to re establish
(42:34):
and rewrite what the culture can be.
We weren't gonna do thatin a corporate setting.
So we, took it in our own hands, verymuch like you did, to work on creating
something that would bring voices tothe table that are typically overlooked,
or that may have been, whether it'sintentional or unintentional, and, you
(42:57):
know, through that journey of rewritingwhat the workplace could look like,
we, of course, You stumble along theway because there's so much you have
to unlearn and unpack to re establish.
But if you aren't making mistakesalong the way, then I don't know
if you can really authentically saywhat's working and what's not working.
(43:20):
So, you know, that's why we wantedto find our own business together, my
partner and I, and, you know, sincethen we've had another partner join us.
But it really is just, we A, hit theglass ceiling, my woman partner and
I, like, for many reasons, eitherdeserving title upgrades or, you know,
(43:42):
personally for me, I saw, you know, alot of, not within this company, but I
saw a lot of my white male counterpartswho can't arguably say they have more
skills or anything compared to me.
Steven Wakabayashi (43:55):
Oh, do you see the trajectory literally, right?
Like, skyrocket.
Like, even
Louis Lee (44:00):
to this day, they're like, Oh, I just like, threw out this idea and I
got a whole bunch of money from my client.
And the things that my partners and I haveto do to ask for the budgets they get.
It's like, we have to do a greatdog and pony show to get the kind of
clients that I might see my other peersthat are white male counterparts get.
(44:25):
Listen, I'm happy for them,I love them, but it is that
Steven Wakabayashi (44:30):
reality.
So, Call a spade a spade.
And we've seen it.
You and I have seen it.
We're literally, we are workingso hard, tirelessly in a corporate
setting, even going above and beyond.
And then I think what a lot of peopledon't realize is you reach a certain
threshold beyond just production, right?
(44:51):
But once you want to start working tostart managing teams or going into any
leadership, It really is who's gonna vouchfor you and who's gonna create space for
you and who's willing to pull you along.
And when the leadership is allmen, all white men, like they, they
somehow feel this, this empathy toother people who look like them.
(45:15):
And that's why diversity, especiallyin a leadership capacity is so
important because that empathy isneeded, but is needed especially
through other people who look like us.
Have experiences like us.
That's tough.
Oh my god, it's easy.
It's tough.
Louis Lee (45:33):
Yeah, it really is and you know, it goes back to this is why it's
so important and I hope that other,if there's anything that can resonate
with queer Asian folks out there itis you have to ask for what you want.
It doesn't do any harm to not ask.
(45:54):
Yeah.
It might do a little bit more harm to you,actually, if you don't even try to ask.
Steven Wakabayashi (45:59):
Hmm.
Because the worst thatcould happen is a no, right?
Exactly.
We're already taking that by walking away.
Louis Lee (46:08):
Exactly.
And.
I think there's nothing incredibly uniqueabout me or, you know, that I feel is,
wow, this is what makes me so specialthat I could go off and create a business.
It just takes a little bravery andaudacity to say, I'm just going to try it.
(46:29):
I'm going to ask for what I want.
and see what happens, cause the flipside is I could always go back into the
corporate setting or go work for someone.
Like I, I, we all have that as apotential option to go back to.
Steven Wakabayashi (46:48):
Okay, let me
ask.
Louis Lee (46:49):
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (46:49):
So for folks who are listening and it's just hard.
Like, what recommendations oradvice would you have for either
entrepreneurial girlies, corporategirlies, or just, like, life girlies?
Like, asking, because what I'vealso heard is, you know, this
whole notion of humbleness,humility is so important, right?
(47:11):
The whole people bag or they're just like,no, it's going to be a flat out no, so why
even bother, you know, many, many takes.
But do you have any advice for themof how to get better at putting
themselves out there and asking?
Louis Lee (47:25):
You just have to keep doing it.
And I think what people areactually afraid of is rejection.
And I think I think a part of the journeyof being in the workplace setting is you
need to get comfortable with rejection.
(47:47):
That doesn't mean that youshould ever stop trying.
I can't tell you how many pitches thatmy partners and I have gone after.
And the amount of time, weget rejected more than we win.
New projects, new business.
You have to just, like, be okay with that.
That is part of the process.
(48:08):
We are incrementally movingthe needle every time, though.
Every time we interview, everytime we ask for something we
want, the needle is moving.
That is how we have grownto what we are today.
So, for anyone out there, not justthe business entrepreneur folk or, but
also the people in the environmentsof corporate, perhaps smaller
(48:30):
environments, You can only just keepasking because we really have to ask
ourselves, what is the alternative?
Not asking means you're gonnajust stay exactly where you are.
Which if you are comfortable with that,if you are in a place where you're
comfortable with where you are, I don'twant to push people into believing
(48:51):
that they have to ask for more.
But if you're someone that isn't happywith where you are in your current
station, then, It really truly doesn'thurt to just keep trying, and keep
asking, and what you do need to do isalso find a community of people, what
I like to call a personal board ofdirectors, to go to and say, I'd love to
(49:13):
just ask for advice, you know, I'm goingthrough this in the workplace, like,
can you help me navigate this situation?
I love doing that for people.
Like I love when women or other people ofcolor reach out to me just asking for what
they should ask for in terms of a salary.
(49:33):
I've helped navigate negotiations fora lot of my close friends or people
that I've just met professionally.
I'm happy to do that work and givethat advice and hopefully for them
to get what they want out of it.
So In addition to advocating for yourself,finding that group of people or, again,
(49:55):
what I call that personal board ofdirectors, I think it's really important
for people that are really interestedin growth throughout their career.
So find that, establish that communityand what that might look like for you.
But, I am such a believer that You know,not everything can just be done alone.
(50:15):
We really need to get back to believingin the idea that community in a
village is what lifts everyone up.
So, so find those people, find thosegood friends that you can really trust
their advice on, and then just go for it.
Cause at least you have people thatare like cheerleaders for you, that are
(50:35):
gassing you up to go talk to your boss.
Or to help write a greatemail, uh, saying, Hey, can I
talk to you about something?
Whatever it might be, it helpsto have that personal board of
directors that are with you, behindyou, to help push you forward.
Steven Wakabayashi (50:54):
Yeah.
And if you ask somebody for advice onthese things and they do not gas you
up, that is such a red flag for me.
Huge.
Right?
Yeah.
Huge.
Like, these are not the people youshould be surrounding yourself with,
because they're all about ensuringyou stay little, even regardless of
work, even in personal life, right?
(51:16):
Relationships.
Louis Lee (51:17):
Yep.
I've seen that too, firsthand in theprofessional setting where someone gave
that advice to another person to, to notcome out public about being a voice behind
this really, really amazing platform.
They ended up deciding, you know what?
I'm not going to listen to that advice.
(51:37):
I'm going to say, I am theperson behind this platform.
And they ended up selling thecompany for a significant amount
of money and they are thriving.
So the people that say that give youthat type of lack of support or that
don't push you or that don't give youthat advice to propel you forward.
(52:02):
They're absolutely someoneto not ever go back to again.
It's, it's not someone thathas ever been a friend.
Uh, most certainly not someone you shouldever go back to professional advice on.
Because real people that believe in youwill support you and say, go for it.
It doesn't hurt to try, but anyone thattries to quiet you or say, step back a
(52:27):
little bit, yeah, not, not your friend.
And I, and that, that's reallyimportant and I'm really glad
that you brought that up.
Steven Wakabayashi (52:34):
Yeah, it could also be family members, right?
It could be relatives.
Absolutely.
And I think I've experienced this afew times and my friends are also going
through this where you might have justall so outgrown relationships, you
know, and you have a different phasesof your life that you enter through and
(52:56):
not everyone comes along with you, youknow, but also people do shift over time
and things come up with them, right?
Like in my sphere, I think onething that is pretty big and
resonant is I spent a ton of yearsjust in the weeds with partying.
I was like out like four or five timesa week and I do have a chunk of friends
(53:18):
that have come with me through thatera into this next era of my life but I
also had a chunk of friends that I wastalking about these things I wanted to
go after, communities I wanted to build,businesses I wanted to create, and their
whole notion was, well that doesn'tsound fun, you know, and I think for many
(53:39):
years I've tried to reconcile that andmy talk that I have in my head was I was
like, well, if these are important peoplein my life, but they don't agree, then
it shouldn't be something I go after.
And I didn't realize how thatnarrative was really holding me back.
And I talked about it on my podcast alot where I had health issues and that
(53:59):
was an awakening moment where I realizedpeople who didn't have the capacity
couldn't show up for me there, right?
Yeah.
Which was a lot of people in that spaceand I think as we evolve naturally,
I think advice that had really helpedme was when the relationships around
us start to look like they're shiftingor we have to re evaluate, right?
(54:24):
It means change is happening, for betteror for worse, and it is indicative
that we are growing in a way, andcreating space and compassion to
hear what is really important to us.
Louis Lee (54:39):
Yeah.
Steven Wakabayashi (54:39):
And it's such an important aspect of growth.
Louis Lee (54:45):
And I, I have so much empathy for people that may not be
able to recognize that, that that'swhat's happening is, we talked about
this a little earlier, is how doyou know what's not serving you?
And so, you know, my sympathy goes outfor those people that just might be
surrounded by the wrong type of peoplethat don't advocate for or support their
(55:10):
friends or loved one as they should be.
So again, choose your board ofdirect, personal board of directors.
And I don't mean that in likea cringy, like, Everyone should
be a business type friend.
That's like counsel, advisors, right?
Right.
And everything in your personallife, cause you know, that
saying where your friends areyour mirrors, it's really true.
(55:33):
Like they should reflect the kindof person that you want to be.
Steven Wakabayashi (55:37):
Yeah.
Louis Lee (55:37):
So.
You know, this is why I'm soexcited to meet other queer Asian,
especially business owner typepeople like yourself, because I can
only see benefits coming from that.
Like it can only see goodness of reallyhelping each other out and supporting
each other and, you know, relyingon this network, uh, to seek advice
(56:03):
and to help each other all thrive.
Yeah, I think.
Only greatness can come from that, and Ionly want to see people do really well.
I don't imagine a scenario whereI don't want someone to do well.
Like, anyone that I can identifywith, or identifies with me, anything
(56:24):
I can do to help them on their comeup, like, I want to be part of that.
Steven Wakabayashi (56:30):
And you realize that when people aren't afraid to give,
and aren't afraid for people to comeup, these are the people that you will
also start to emulate, you know, andyou become more like, and we all, like,
it's beyond scarcity mindset, it's theawareness that there is so much out there
(56:52):
that we can help, like a rising tiderises, like raises all boats, right?
It's similar to that, where it's likea boat with a giant gaping hole, like
you can only carry so much, right?
And I think, I think we areso very much like the person
you surround yourselves with.
And I'm very grateful for our conversationand, uh, it's just, you have such a
(57:20):
breadth of knowledge and insight, andIt's just really, it's really great
to also see other folks, other queerAsian folks, thriving, excelling.
You and I have worked on many similarthings together and hope our listeners
are getting so much out of it.
We get it.
(57:41):
It's hard.
It's hard out there.
Louis Lee (57:43):
It's hard.
And, you know, I think.
You know, I keep going back to wantingto just tell people I truly feel there
isn't anything incredibly unique about me.
There's no special superpower.
It really is just a littlebit of audacity and hard work.
(58:04):
Like, just putting in a little bit of thatextra elbow grease, a little more hustle.
But of course, making sureyour life is balanced.
You gotta take care of yourself too.
You can't just be about the hustle.
That will burn you out and makethe whole experience not joyful.
So, you know, I also want to pair thejourney with, yes, you got a hard, you
(58:28):
got to put in the work and the grind, butmake sure that you're also taking care
of yourself, like vacation time, timeoff, that stuff is still very important.
Um, so especially with the.
Younger audiences that are just enteringthe workforce, work and work and work,
but also make sure you are playing.
(58:51):
Make sure you're eating all your meals.
Have time to exercise and to get breathof fresh air and to spend quality
time with people you care about.
So, you know, that's also partof the culture that I want to
create is giving that flexibilityof people living their life.
Like, I really don't wantpeople to tell me I need to go
(59:16):
to the doctors for XYZ reason.
You don't need to tell me any of that.
You can, all you need to say is, I'mdone with my work and I'm gonna take
this time to go to an appointment.
That's all you need to say.
Um, so, you know, to, you know, anyoneout there, it's like, definitely make
sure you're taking care of yourselftoo through this journey of hustling.
Steven Wakabayashi (59:40):
Yeah, I know we're nearing the end.
A few quick questions for you.
Louis Lee (59:46):
Sure.
Steven Wakabayashi (59:46):
What is one lesson you'd like our
listeners to take away with?
Louis Lee (59:53):
If there's anything that you can walk away from, from hearing this
conversation, it really is You are verycapable, you just have to be brave and
take the leap, advocate for yourself.
It never hurts to ask for what you want.
The worst that can happenis someone will say no.
(01:00:15):
Keep trying.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:00:18):
And what is something that's bringing you some joy lately?
Louis Lee (01:00:23):
A lot of things
are bringing me joy lately.
Uh, work wise.
We've been in on set for the past monthfor multiple client photo and video
production, which means to me thatreally soon a lot of large campaigns are
rolling out for my team at Bellweather.
Um, and then personally, justbeing freshly and newly married has
(01:00:46):
brought an immense amount of joy.
So on the personal front, uh, justsharing this life journey with my partner.
And also the beautiful and wonderfulpeople that showed up for us on our day.
I'm, uh, feeling a lot of joythrough just, yeah, all those
(01:01:06):
people that showed up for us.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:01:08):
And how can people find you?
Louis Lee (01:01:11):
Personally, uh, for me, find me on LinkedIn.
Uh, I'm Louis Lee on, on LinkedIn.
If you have any questions that I canhelp out with, In terms of professional
advice, find me there, DM me, um, onInstagram, our Bellweather Agency,
it's @bellweatheragency, and thenour website, www.bellweather.agency.
(01:01:35):
And then I'm sure you can find my contactthrough there, so if you want to reach
out to me directly, feel free to doso, if there's any way I can help you.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:01:42):
Thank you so much.
And for folks who are listening,if you enjoyed this episode, feel
free to leave us a rating review.
Actually, I will ask toleave a rating review.
They are a way that helps the platformsthat we're on see our episodes and
your reviews and your kind words.
Help others discover yellow glitter.
(01:02:04):
If you want to follow us, followus @yellowglitterpd, uh, on socials
and give us a shout and let us knowwhat you want to hear more of and
listen to some clips and for fullepisodes, transcripts, you can visit
our website at yellow glitter podcast.
com.
Louis, I just want to say thank youso much for being on the podcast.
(01:02:28):
You've provided a ton of greatinsights and just so much empathy
for everything that I've experiencedand I've gone through and so thank
you for echoing that and just I thinkoverall you have such a calm, soothing
demeanor and it's just a breath of justtranquil air and so that I appreciate
(01:02:51):
you so much for being on with us.
Louis Lee (01:02:54):
Thank you so much, Steven, for having me and again, creating
this platform to really unite alot of queer Asian folks out there.
You know, thank you for having me.
Steven Wakabayashi (01:03:05):
Thank you.
And for those of you listening,thank you for your time.
So grateful we got to spend abig part of your day with us.
And without further ado, we hopeyou have a great rest of your day.
Be mindful.
Ask for things.
And put yourself out thereand we'll chat with you later.
(01:03:29):
Bye now.
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