October 24, 2023 • 51 mins
Have you ever considered how poetry can heal the soul in the face of devastating loss and how it can raise awareness about crucial health issues such as Obstructive Sleep Apnea? This episode promises a profound exploration of these themes as we welcome Laing Rikkers, a woman transmuted by personal loss into a powerful voice for those battling OSA. Having lost her sister to this condition, Laing penned 'Mourning Leaves', a book of stirring poetry that manifests her journey through grief and serves as a beacon of understanding for those affected by OSA.
Our conversation travels through the soothing world of Laing's poetry and the poignant design of her collaborative book 'The Grief of Sleep Apnea'. Along with illustrator Kelly, Laing has managed to create a visual and emotional refuge for readers, pulling them into an authentic encounter with grief and resilience. From the delicate arrangement of words to the evocative artwork, Laing opens up about the courage and vulnerability it takes to share such intimate emotions and experiences with the world.
Towards the conclusion of our dialogue, Laing delves into her personal transitions and her newfound trust in gut instincts. She shares her upcoming ventures including her aspiration to create tranquil spaces for friends and loved ones to unwind. Our discussion ends on a note of hope and connection, as Laing's book and online presence stands as a testament to the potency of transforming personal loss into a source of comfort, understanding, and advocacy. Tune in to this moving episode to gain insight into Laing's inspiring journey and her mission to raise awareness about Obstructive Sleep Apnea.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, this is Line Rickers.
When you look back on your life, I hope you have a sense that
you took chances and that youare able to live and love fully,
because you only go once.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, hello, hello, welcome everyone to you.
Only Go Once.
I'm here with my gloriousco-host, eileen Grimes, and
we're here with a fantasticguest, eileen, kick us off.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Thanks, cheryl.
So today we have Lange Rickers,who is the leader in the field
of obstructive sleep apnea, orOSA.
I'm very interested to get morein depth into this, so an often
hidden and potentially fatalmedical condition.
After her sister died ofundiagnosed OSA, Lange sought
solace from nature andcreativity and wrote Morning
(00:51):
Leaves, a book of poetry to helpothers navigate grief.
Permission now is to save livesby encouraging people to
recognize the symptoms of OSAand take better care of
themselves and their loved ones.
So welcome Lange, it's sowonderful to have you here
tonight.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
It's great to be here , yeah so oh my gosh, I don't
know.
I feel like we could kick thisoff in so many different
directions, but you know, Ithink talking about probably the
beginning it seems like abeginning to end kind of
timeline makes sense for all ofthis stuff.
So you know, obviously we knowthat your sister had passed.
(01:31):
You know that's what sparked alot of the things that you're
doing.
Were you, were you working inobstructive sleep apnea?
Prior to that, I was.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I had co -founded a business that makes medical
devices that treat people withobstructive sleep apnea.
It's the leading alternative toCPAP, which is the face mask
that blows air, and the devicesthat we make are oral appliances
.
It's a company called Prosamnes, and they are custom made for
(02:01):
each patient and they're reallycomfortable and they work really
well.
And so we, you know, hadfounded this business and
getting it started and, in theprocess, started to hear from
mostly from my niece about someof the symptoms that my sister
was suffering from.
She was snoring very loudly andshe was tired all the time, she
(02:23):
needed to take daytime naps andexperiencing moodiness, and,
because of my work, I knew thatthose were some of the symptoms
of OSA and I suggested that sheget tested and, you know, for
whatever reason, sheunfortunately did not and she
(02:46):
ended up in atrial fibrillation,which is highly correlated with
OSA, in December of 2019.
And she was only 46.
It was horrible, it was reallysad and really shocking and so,
yeah, so that was sort of thebeginning of it all, of at least
the part that led to somewriting and some other
(03:10):
exploration.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah.
So first of all, I just want tosay I mean, my heart goes out
to you.
I am so sorry for your loss.
I can't, it's unimaginable,truly to go through loss like
that and I'm just so, so sorryto hear that.
And I'm so grateful that you'realso sharing this, because I
you know there's some reallywonderful things you are doing
(03:33):
now to help others around this,and you know I'll let Cheryl
talk a little bit on some ofthose things too, but I just am
so grateful for you being hereto be able to take what's
happened now and then bring itout in a way that supports other
people through this.
So that's extremely brave ofyou to do that work.
(03:55):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Well, thank you, and it's very helpful to me as well.
So I do hope that OSA issomething that's really
treatable and it doesn't need tohappen to any other families.
So I'm spending a lot of mytime trying to get the word out
and educate people and make surepeople know what their options
are and when they should gospeak with a doctor.
So it's nice it actually issort of a gift to be in a
(04:19):
position that I'm in where I canactually do something, as
opposed to just grieving it's.
It certainly is helpful.
I'm sure, cheryl, you probablyhave found something similar to
in your process.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yes, for sure, and I also echo Eileen Sentimentz.
I am very sorry about the lossof your sister and I can't
imagine what that was like foryour nieces and for you and for
your family.
The one thing so, first of all,I I devoured this book, and
this book that I'm referencingfor the people that are on audio
is called Morning Leaves.
It is a beautiful collection ofpoetry and reflections on loss,
(04:58):
grief and connection.
Lange wrote it and the artworkis by Kelly Lehi Rading it.
You know this definitely takesyou away and I would imagine
during your grieving process youfelt like you just needed a
moment, right.
So can you tell me a little bitabout how the book came to be
(05:19):
in terms of your connection withnature?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I well, I should say just for context, my sister
passed away right beforelockdown and COVID.
I live in Southern Californiaand so, like everybody else, you
know, we were stuck at home andand really frightened deeply
right by everything that washappening and what we were
seeing around the world.
(05:45):
And you know, one of the thingsthat was most helpful was to
get outside and to move and youknow, fortunately I lived in a
place where that was reallyenjoyable to do and you know the
weather was cooperative and andall that.
So my husband and I would goout every day and walk a lot and
(06:06):
you know I think the walkingwas helpful, both just the
physicality of it, but also justconnecting with you know, the
natural world was reallyimportant and just to see both
the perspective of sort of howsmall we humans are and but also
(06:26):
to see how sort of persistentand generative nature is and and
beautiful and, and I think thatyou know the combination of all
those things keep you hopefuland you know, and really keep
you moving forward and helpthink, you know, keep things
otherwise in really goodperspective.
(06:46):
So so that was that was reallypart of it and you know to to be
able to take, be in a placewhere you know things were
really blooming and there was alot, you know they were going
through the seasons, was helpfulas well.
And there's a little bit ofgoing through the seasons in my
(07:08):
book.
Not not live, not quite, youknow, not in a literal sense, I
don't sort of say, and this is amonth, but, but I do think that
there was a passing through oftime and and nature's
metamorphosis itself is, youknow, sort of a part of our own
journey.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So it was great.
Yeah, it's really.
It is a beautiful book, notonly in the sense of it's
literally beautiful.
So, folks, if you go out to anyof the major or indie on online
sites, you can get to see howgorgeous it is.
Your writing was so effectivein that I felt like so there's a
couple of mostly all the poemsreflect around something in
(07:48):
nature, whether it's fruits orplants or anything like that.
Like I felt, like I could tastethe pomegranates.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I felt like.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I could run my hands across the the dune grass, like
there was just like I felt likeI was in the redwoods when you
were talking.
So all that is exquisite and Ilove how you.
It's a gift in two ways.
Number one it's a gift to those, I think, who are grieving.
People would receive this as away to reflect and just feel
(08:17):
calmer.
And then the second piece isyou give a lot of resources
around OSA, so I want to comeback to that a little bit.
How did you even get startedwith sleep apnea?
How did how did that becomeyour ultimate interests in life?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
So I spent about 20 years in private equity
investing in medical devicecompanies, and I was working
with a couple of the other cofounders of this business at
another company.
The original product forPrasamnus was developed at
another, at a predecessorcompany, and Okay.
(08:55):
Yeah, it just started sort oftaking off and we got very
excited about it and we sold offall of the other assets of the
business and and reinvested inthis one and it's been fantastic
.
We you know it's grown.
We founded it in 2016 and it'sgrown very nicely and we were
lucky enough, we took it publicon Nasdaq last December.
(09:18):
So, congratulations, yeah,thank you.
Yeah, it's doing really, reallywell and it's yeah, it's it's
just a special combination of,you know, being able to do
something that you feelpassionate about and, you know,
have it thrive as a business,and so it's going great.
I feel I feel very lucky to bein the spot that.
(09:39):
I mean, you know it's one ofthose luck is a lot of.
There's a lot of hard work andbeing in the right place, yes,
but it's, it is.
It's a great thing and you know, like I said, to be able to Put
my professional knowledge towork to educate people around,
something that I feel, so youknow, personally connected to is
(10:00):
Is a really exceptional thingto get to do.
I really I don't take that forgranted for a second, and
there's just a lot.
There is a lot to do becausethere's, you know.
I'll just spout off a couple ofthe statistics, because there's
there are Estimated to be onebillion people globally who have
OSA and 80% are undiagnosed.
(10:23):
Wow, you've got lots and lotsof people who you know are at
risk for Serious cardiovascularDiseases, plus diabetes and
cancer.
And so, you know, to helpeducate people and and you know,
in the case of personas, alsogive them treatment options that
(10:45):
are alternatives to CPAP arereally important because a lot
of people, even if they Thinkthat they might have OSA,
they're so frightened thatthey're going to Get diagnosed
and have to wear a mask for therest of their lives that they'll
put their head in the sand andjust ignore it.
And then the other thing is it.
It has historically been quitechallenging for people to get
(11:07):
diagnosed because, yep, peopleneeded to go into sleep labs and
who wanted to do that?
Unfortunately, home sleeptesting has really become Very
widely acceptable, except notacceptable accepted and
reimbursed by medical insurance,and so it's gotten easier and
easier for people to getdiagnosed.
(11:27):
And you know now there's justother kinds of treatments
available and choices forpatients to make.
So Hopefully, you know, peoplewill become more aware, you know
they'll get more educated,they'll get more comfortable
with doing the sleep test andthen they'll feel more
comfortable that they can Find atreatment that works for them,
because sleep apnea isn'tsomething that can be cured at
(11:48):
this point.
It does require nightly,lifetime treatment.
So a patient has to findSomething that they're
comfortable with it, that worksfor their lifestyle, and so you
know that's been the thing withpersonas.
That's been so Exciting isbecause it really it looks sort
of like invisible line.
It's, you know, clear mouthguard right, a little bit
(12:09):
heavier gauge, and it has postson the upper and lower splint to
hold the jaw forwarding andkeep the airway open.
But you can drink water and youcan talk and you can get up and
use the restroom, and so it's,it's very easy for people.
It's, you know, socially itdoesn't have the kind of stigma
that people worry about and it'snot interfering with your bed
(12:29):
partners Sleep because there'sno noise, there's no hoses,
there's.
You know those are the thingsthat you can do, you know those
kinds of things.
So those factors matter.
I mean, we're dealing withpeople and they're day to day,
real lives and you know, to makesure that patients will adhere
to the treatment is Is a bigfactor and so so, yeah, so it's
(12:51):
one of the reasons that it wasgreat to go public was just help
to, you know, get the word outand make sure that people you
know knew that there was, youknow, these kinds of
alternatives out there and andso you know we're we're
investing in salespeople andpublic relations and those kinds
of activities.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Sure, all the getting the word out piece of that.
It's incredibly important, andStanding out above the crowd is
certainly something that is canbe difficult to do and so
important to to get those things.
I'm fascinated and definitely Iwant to look into this.
So for the technology thatyou're using right now, actually
(13:34):
, let me step back real quickly.
We talked a little bit aboutsymptoms.
Are there?
Are there sort of symptomspeople can share?
I mean, we say that 80 ofpeople are undiagnosed.
So what does that look like?
We so, and also none of it.
We're not physicians tellingyou that this is Correct, what
it is.
So if you have any concerns,talk to your doctors.
(13:55):
This is not a place for us toprescribe anything.
Just put that little caveat inthere.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, absolutely, um so, um yeah, my first
recommendation is always speakto your doctor and a primary
care doctor, a pulmonologist, acardiologist, even a, you know,
a sleep trained dentist is is agood resource, but a so the the
typical symptoms are snoring,daytime sleepiness, waking up
(14:25):
with a dry mouth, waking up sortof gasping.
Um, depression is is correlatedwith it, and it's often the
person's bed partner who is theone who Um recognizes it.
And so you know you hear thesnoring, they hear the gasping
or the or the pausing of ofbreathing, and it often scares
(14:46):
them.
So you know, in the industrypeople talk about the elbow test
.
You know if, if someone'sneeding to elbow you, it's
because they're concerned andbecause either you're keeping
them awake from your snoring orbecause they're worried that
you're not breathing, and sothat's that's often the one of
the leading indicators that getspeople to talk to their doctor.
(15:07):
Unfortunately, we just did astudy and most people, even if
they know that they're snoring,aren't sure who to talk to.
That is a concern as well.
Our direct customers are sleepdentists.
These are specialized dentistswho have been trained in sleep
(15:30):
medicine.
As you said, there areresources in my book that point
to different websites that haveinformation.
Also, my website,langreakerscom, has links to
these websites.
There's also we've recentlycreated a website and it's easy
to remember because it's no moreOSA and it's KNOW.
(15:53):
Of course, it's also the planwords of N-O-D-O.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Okay, show us it's.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
KNOW no more OSAcom.
If you go there, to that site,it will give a questionnaire
that will tell you whether ornot you're at high risk and it
takes you through some of thethose kinds of questions and
then has a provider link ifsomeone is interested in finding
(16:18):
a specialist.
But speak to your own doctor aswell.
There are lots ofwell-qualified people who can
help with the situation.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
It's incredibly helpful.
I have family members that haveit and have used CPAPs and all
of those things.
It is incredibly helpful tohave that knowledge at the very
minimum, to be able to go totalk to a professional to get
what you need done.
One thank you for sharing that.
(16:48):
Two, I am so fascinated withall these new capabilities.
There's this that you have withprosomeness.
There are these new breastpumps for women that don't have
all the.
We're connected to every singlething and it's just a lot more
discrete and makes you feel morenormal.
(17:10):
If quote unquote, I love theamount that technology can truly
help people live their livesday to day in a way that makes
them feel comfortable andconfident.
This sounds like another one ofthose options.
But, yeah, so with that, yousaid your primary target, or
(17:32):
clients, are working with thesedentists.
I didn't even know that was athing a sleep dentist.
I didn't know what you were.
I'm very curious.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
They're trained typically as regular dentists,
and then they go back foradditional education and so they
get the training and then theway that the sort of path for a
patient is that they need to bediagnosed by a physician because
it's a serious medicalcondition.
(18:03):
Yeah, the sleep study isadministered and read and the
diagnosis is given by aphysician and then, depending on
the treatment that the patientis getting, they direct the
patient to different kinds ofspecialists.
So, for instance, if you'regetting a CPAP, they'll send you
to a respiratory therapist whowill fit the mask.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And if you're getting an oral appliance, the most
typical is for it to go to asleep dentist, and so they,
because they're used to workingin the oral cavity, they are
specialists in that area andoccasionally ENTs.
Particularly in Europe it'scommon for ENTs also to work in
(18:45):
the oral cavity, but in the USit's largely sleep dentists, and
it's a specialty that many ofthem are getting into, and I
think, particularly as thetechnology develops and gets
better and better and themedical community gets more
comfortable with oral solutions,it's a feedback loop that the
(19:12):
doctors are comfortablereferring the patients.
The more they need thereferrals to the dentists, the
more dentists get into it, andso it's definitely a growing and
strengthening field.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah, and I mean it makes so much sense.
I even just for me at least Iam a.
I have Bruxism, so I'm anexcellent teeth grinder at night
, and so having dentists be ableto go and then be able to see
and understand those kinds ofthings and how that links to
other health things that aregoing on, is just incredibly
(19:43):
helpful, and I think there'seven some cancer screenings that
dentists have been able to dorecently too.
I just it's it's kind ofamazing how the field has grown
to be able to look at that sortof holistic health, not just
within what's happening in themouth.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So yeah, there's a lot of growing understanding of
larger health issues beingidentifiable in the mouth, so
yeah, so OK, so back to the bookstuff.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Did you know you wanted to be a published author
your whole life?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
No, I had no plans to write a book at all.
I, you know, I do have lots offriends who you know sort of on
their bucket list of things todo, and it was not online.
I did not think of myself thatway and it was the way it came
about.
Was I read Julia Cameron's theArtist Way during COVID and I
(20:43):
was looking to do something morecreative.
I had this need to makesomething and I actually thought
that it would be sculpture orjewelry or something sort of
tactile and physical.
But I it was.
I had no skills I had, I had notools.
I was in lockdown.
So and she recommends writing ajournal every morning before
(21:10):
doing anything else.
So you wake up and you have towrite three pages before even
speaking your first word.
And so, wow, I really adheredto her advice and if you haven't
read her book, it's just Ithought it was fantastic and you
know it's now been around 25years.
I think it's right.
It's really tried and true inthat way.
(21:32):
So the poems were really allwritten in that very early
morning, sort of fuzzy while Ineed between dream state and
being fully awake, and that wasimportant for what I was dealing
with.
I needed to be able to getbelow the analytical head and
(21:54):
sort of for into what was goingon, you know, more at the soul
level, and I hadn't written muchpoetry before and it was just
sort of what came out and I had.
Every morning I would wake upand I felt very connected to a
particular plant and that and itwas, and that's what they all
(22:17):
became.
They were sort of I wasprocessing some emotion or some
experience and I would have thisand I wasn't over thinking it.
It just sort of showed up andand it helped me work through a
lot of things and and it wasjust a gift, I it was in one of
(22:40):
your sort of here Sometimespeople who write songs say like
I could just hear it and it was.
That was more of the experienceI had than actively writing
something.
It was more just listening towhat was in my head and my body
and and getting it out on paper.
So it was great and and I Iultimately, you know, at first I
(23:05):
had, you know, months ofjournals and some of them were
just, you know, gobbledygook,nothing Of course.
Others you know that I thoughtwere worth saving and and I was
really very in touch with thisidea of my sister leaving her
daughter before she was ready togo.
(23:29):
I have no doubt of that.
And so this sense of gosh.
What if I go?
What about my children?
What have I not told them?
I was doing a lot of like.
You know, you have to make yourbed when you go to someone's
house, or something Right.
It was little things, but thenalso wanting to make sure the
(23:51):
bigger things of like, do youknow me, do you know who I am,
if something happened to me?
And so I thought, well, Ishould type up some of this
because I could explain it tothem in a way that I thought
would be informative.
And so I started with thatprocess and then realized that
(24:12):
they weren't, as they were moreuniversal, they weren't as truly
personal or uniquely orexclusively personal.
So in a better way is it?
And so started sort oforganizing them and then sort of
hemmed in how I look, do theyshare this with anybody?
And I was very apprehensive andself-conscious and unsure of it.
(24:39):
And so I have a couple offriends who are real writers and
I reached out to them and theywere wonderful, they were really
encouraging and that washelpful to have people sort of
(25:00):
give those initial nods.
And I needed that.
I needed somebody to say like,okay, you're just fine here and
you can keep going and pursue it.
And so I did.
I felt like there were littlebreadcrumbs every time I had
(25:22):
these kinds of doubts.
I don't know, the universewould just put something in
front of me that might be oh,all right, I guess I got to keep
going, or I could readsomething that would be like, oh
, that's still sort of like asign like I got to keep going,
I'd meet somebody, or whateverit was.
So it was a really special,probably once in a lifetime kind
(25:44):
of experience that I got tohave, and so I felt lucky, I'm
very lucky, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Well, so at this point I might as well just leave
, because I think you and Cherylare going to have a lot.
So go on, Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
It's really funny because hearing you, it sounded
very similar.
And Eileen, you wrote a booktoo.
So I'm sure there were moments,as Lang was talking, that was
definitely like oh yeah, I wentthrough that, you betcha, I
found that my writing was thebest at 4.30 in the morning.
I have two really weird dogsthat insist on eating at 4
(26:23):
o'clock in the morning, so I getup with them, feed them, and
then I would get onto my phoneand go oh, I just thought about
this and type it down, and thenI would conk out for the day and
that's kind of how a lot of mypoems got written.
I also went through this seriouslike I don't think this is a
good idea, I don't know.
(26:44):
And Eileen was barking at me,our friend Mae was barking at me
.
I had a whole bunch of friendsthat were going no, keep going,
this will be helpful.
And I actually shut downeverything.
So I'm self-published.
I know that you are notself-published, but I'm
self-published.
So I definitely shut everythingdown for a month.
I mean I had finished with theillustrator, I had finished with
(27:04):
the editors and I was like Idon't think this is going to.
I don't know, I don't think so.
And then it felt like the endof 2022 and the beginning of
2023, in particular, choseviolence, like it just felt like
everyone around me was losingsomebody and it just felt heavy
(27:25):
and I thought, all right, and Ialways had my one friend, julie,
in the back of my head going Ifeel like this book will help
people.
And I said OK, so I finished itand I put it out there and I
almost threw up and it was fineand it went out there, it's fine
.
So I just I hear a lot of whatyou're saying and it actually
gave me great comfort.
I'm sorry that you haddiscomfort, but it gave me
(27:47):
comfort in knowing that theprocess was very similar for you
, because I know for me I wasjust out of my mind most of the
time, going like oh, I don'tknow if this is going to happen
or not.
I'm so glad I did it.
I'm hoping that it's not theend for me.
In terms of writing, is thissomething that you want to
pursue or do you really thinklike this is maybe this is it
(28:11):
for me, or do you want to pursueother writing?
Since you have all those otherjournals, do you think that
there's other books in therewaiting to be birthed?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I have a draft of something else that I'm playing
with and I'm kind of waiting tosee how this one does and Kelly
and I have talked I know shealso would be interested in.
We had so much fun.
I mean we really just loved itand the process of collaborating
(28:44):
with her was as good as it gets.
I mean we just we were able toconnect every day and provision
for it was really similar and wewere able to just be somewhat
playful with it in terms ofwanting it to have it and needed
to have a certain gravitasbecause of the subject.
(29:04):
But I also wanted it to havesome of the exploration and the
feeling of like a children'sbook where you're looking for
things, like I always loved theWhere's Waldo or the Richard's
Scary, or like where you werelooking for the little details.
So we have a lot of fun, youknow, put even like if you've
(29:27):
got the book in front of you,even on the cover, like a little
tiny ladybug who's you knowright under where it says grief.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, like these little tiny touches that maybe
someone notices and maybe theydon't, but we did and we you
know, and you know choosing theribbon and you know wanting the
linen and all of the details ofhow it looked and felt and the
weight of the paper and thedensity of the art throughout it
(29:56):
, and I felt really stronglythat it have enough space in it.
I feel like when you're moving,you can't process very or as
much as you normally can.
Like you know, everything's alittle bit in slow motion, like
you're underwater, and so to beable to just have a little light
(30:18):
and space between things, andtruthfully, you know, I wouldn't
be surprised.
I said, certainly for myselfwhen I was first going through
it, I maybe could have looked atthe pictures.
I couldn't read one that, butlife, that first month or so I
just Mm-hmm, and, and so youknow that that may end up being
(30:41):
you know what's appropriate forsomebody at one moment.
And then maybe they'll read apoem or two at a time, or maybe
Eventually they'll sit down andread it, start to finish what it
whatever.
The nice thing is, it kind oflends itself to meeting people
where they are at the time andso so, yeah, so we had fun doing
it and I think we would love todo it again.
(31:03):
But if, if the world says thisis great and we'd love more of
it, then great.
I, otherwise I, you know, Ihave to Sort of go, okay.
Well, maybe that was somethingthat was really wonderful to do
and I'll move on and spend moretime on my Day job or whatever
it might be.
So.
So we'll see, but it's, youknow, people have been extremely
(31:24):
nice and you know it's earlydays, so it's it's hard.
I'm sure you have this too, butwhat made both of you where
people go well, how's it goingRight?
I have no idea.
Like you know it's not.
You know it's not a completefailure and I'm not on the New
York Times bestseller list.
It's right that right pastmiddle, I don't know, but I I
(31:45):
feel happy.
You know, it's like Just havingeven a couple people,
particularly people that I don'tknow.
Yeah, see, this really Matterto me, or I touched me or I
related to it, or those Comments.
I don't know if people realizehow Important that is to hear
for me.
(32:05):
I mean, it's really because it'sthe reason to do it, Otherwise
I would have, sure, you know,kept it for my kids and put it
in a drawer, and and so you know, I think that notion of helping
others is such a gratifyingpiece of this whole process, and
so I, you know that Feels good,so I like, sure sure.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, the last time I checked, I am part of this
world and I hope you do more ofthis because it is really.
It's an exquisite book and itis a gift for Anybody who
purchases it and anybody whowill receive it as a gift.
I just think it's.
It is a lovely, lovely book andI love, in particular, how you
had that wonderful partnershipwith your, with your illustrator
(32:52):
, your artist.
I my story on my artworkbecause mine is not as detailed
as yours, mine is mostly sectionbreaks and things like that.
I'm a big fan of shellSilverstein and it was that I
wanted to capture that nostalgiaand I had talked to my former
art teacher who we hadinterviewed, and she is the
(33:16):
department head of forensicillustration right now at Penn
West and that is in Erie,pennsylvania, and I, you know, I
didn't know what I was doing.
So I was like, hi, would you bewilling to illustrate?
And after she got done,laughing because she's involved
in 80 bajillion things yeah, Iget.
(33:36):
If you listen to that podcastyou would understand why.
And she said but I have a lotof students that are looking for
experience and she hooked me upwith Olivia and Olivia Sutton
for those that are listening outthere, she is going to light
the art world on fire and shekind of got it.
And I love it.
When you know, writers andartists kind of connect in that
(33:59):
special way, and I loved hearingyour story about that as well,
because once they get it it'salmost like your words have that
extra Substance to it.
Right, because everything kindof connects.
And I felt that way about yourstoo.
The writing was exquisite, butI love the way how the pictures
it gave that additional feel ofyou know, being enveloped in
(34:22):
something so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
So you know Kelly is an incredibly generous Artist
and she put, she spent a yearand a half doing.
You know they're almost 80paintings in here and she it.
But you know it also is reallynice to she talks about how
she's been painting.
You know she's been paintingfor whatever many years, for
years, and For her it was areally special process because
(34:49):
often she's painting, you know,a bird or a landscape or an
animal of some sort, but theyweren't always hooked to
something, whereas, you know,this was a body of work with a
very clear purpose and adirection, and and so I think
that for her was Was a specialopportunity as well.
(35:13):
And so, yeah, we spent some, wehad so much fun.
I mean, you know we would meet.
She lives in Connecticut, notfar from where my parents have a
place, and I, you know, wewould meet periodically and you
know we'd go through the youknow color of the background of
the papers and then you knowwhich ones would follow which,
and you know and then which ofthe little paintings on the you
(35:34):
know right side would go withthe bigger one.
You know, and just making youknow what was symbolic with what
, and it was to have somebody asEntwined in the process as I
was needed, a Different kind ofprocess than I had had
experience before and and muchless lonely and and she was just
(35:58):
.
You know, she's a formal, wellrespected, known artist and so
that also was helpful for mebecause I have a ton of respect.
I were artists that I didn'tappreciate the vulnerability
that they have.
I mean creating something newand different and putting it
(36:20):
into the world.
Is one of the scariest things,and particularly when you're
doing it alone.
So for me to have to do it inpartnership with Kelly helped a
lot, I mean, even though ourpieces were separate in certain
ways.
It is that fear, right of that,of putting your son in the case
(36:41):
of this, was a personal to toput it out into the world.
And you know I tend to be veryoptimistic and and you know,
sort of a glass half full person.
But you know there's alsodarkness out there in the world
and there's some not greatpeople and and not nice people
(37:01):
and you know, just sort ofvoluntarily.
You know, go into open water isis a big thing.
I'm sure both of you guys havedone that.
You're writing and I, havingnot done it before, I just
didn't realize that every timean artist was putting something
(37:21):
out there that they probablywere going through that as well.
So it made me a little kinder,little slower, gentler other
artists too.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
So I told Cheryl I Watched the love.
I love Brunne Brown.
I just do.
I watch her special on Netflix.
I think it was in 2020 that thatone came out, yeah, and I just
like I went to it multiple timesbecause that was while I was
writing the book, right, and ittalks about the man in the arena
(37:55):
, and so I and I actually sentit to Cheryl the other day for
something but also the conceptthat you are putting yourself
out there.
People can say all they wantuntil you're also In it.
One, you're gentle.
You're generally more gentleand kind with other people who
(38:15):
are also doing that and puttingthemselves out there, because
you, you know what it takes andhow much it can hurt and how
much it just means so deeply toto be out there.
And I guarantee you any of thethree of us on this call would
like.
I am in high support of everyonethat is doing that kind of work
(38:36):
.
I'm not gonna go in and startmaking comments on Twitter or
whatever it is, just trying tobash somebody because they're
they're doing something rightthere, they're in the middle of
it.
Like, at least try, if you'regonna give me feedback, the only
people I'm gonna take feedbackfrom or from other people who
are actually doing the work too.
So you know that for me atleast, that was what helped
(38:58):
combat some of those right,because it is, it's very
vulnerable.
It's very scary to just say,well, I don't have any control
now over how people respond tothis or how they see it, and To
keep going like that wassomething that just helped in
the back of my mind and now Isee it, because I'm Now with
Cheryl doing this and thecommunity of people that have
(39:19):
supported me through that andeven laying I know you're with
with Mary's group and stuff likethat like having having those
people surrounding you that arealso Doing that work and being
vulnerable and sharing thosepieces of themselves Make it a
lot easier.
So you don't feel so alone,completely agree finding your
(39:41):
community of people in this.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
it for me has been really important and it's and
fun, like it's just the learndifferent things.
It's been so expansive for meand you know that obviously,
right where you take the biggestrisks, you also grow the most
and the most it can be the mostrewarding.
(40:05):
I mean, you know for me, Iguess that in a lot of ways
almost all of the things that Ihoped to get out of the book,
some ways I already have.
You know I I would love forother people to you know, enjoy
it and get something from it andbuy it and all of those other
things.
But you know the most importantstuff I've gotten from from the
(40:31):
process and the people thathave already sort of contributed
to it all.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
So yeah, so I'm curious.
It's just from listening to youand how you've gone even from
you know some of the investmentside of things into this
technology piece and writing abook, it seems like you're
really open to possibility.
Would I be correct in sayingthat?
It just feels like you're kindof like oh, this feels right to
(40:58):
me and you seem really in touchwith, like the gut feeling, as
we call it right, and when yourbody is trying to communicate
something, has that always beensomething that has just been a
piece of who you are?
Have you worked on it?
I just I think that's soincredibly important for the
(41:19):
opportunity for growth and foryou know, for our listeners.
Right, it's like well, how do Istart doing this?
I think the just even beingable to be open to the fact that
you might do somethingdifferent is a huge piece of it.
So I'm curious what does thatlook for you through your life
and or what are things that youdo to keep yourself open?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
So, yes, I would agree, I am open to possibility
and I do.
And I think also, as I'vegotten older, I trust my gut and
my instinct a lot more, I'veprobably.
I, I guess that I think aboutlike my book in two pieces and
maybe there are good analogy forthe rest of myself too, like
(42:03):
the poems that I wrote in thatsort of twilight-y, very sort of
spiritual, sort of subconsciouspart of my brain.
And I think one of my friendsis like oh, that's theta, you
know, that's when you're brainis, yeah, sure, and you know,
but then, like the introductionwas, you know, that's like the
(42:24):
academic that's, you know,that's much more the analytical,
the academic, you know, that'slike the after coffee writing.
And and I would say that I haveboth, you know, in my day to
day life I have both sides alsothat I tend to, if I'm really
making big decisions, I go withmy instinct, I go with my gut
(42:47):
and if I go against it.
I almost always regret it.
I mean I just I and and and.
The more that I know that aboutthe myself, the more highly
tuned I get to that.
And it doesn't mean that Idon't use the other part of my
brain to, you know, do the listsand you know, check the numbers
(43:08):
and you know, do do theanalytical sort of cross tab.
But.
But important decisions are, aregut decisions for me and, and
probably more so than for somepeople, I tend to lean more that
direction and yeah, I think forother people, I think a lot of
(43:30):
that comes from listening andpaying attention and, as you say
, sort of staying open, thatthat maybe you don't know the
answer, that maybe you have tofind it and and seek it, and you
know, listen for it and see ifit's out there or it is out
there, whatever answered it.
(43:51):
You know the answer is outthere and you can either sort of
force it or you can let it cometo you.
And sometimes I'm also tryingto get a lot better.
I don't know the answer yet, Ican't make no yet and and
trusting that to to just go, Ican't make that decision.
I'm not there yet.
It's just, I don't have all thepieces, I don't have enough
information I wish I did, but Idon't and just sitting with it.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
So I think that was one of the best things that I
learned when I was getting mymaster's in education was like,
don't pretend, like you know theanswer.
That was.
That was one of the things thatthe professors told us Like, if
you don't know the answer,don't say.
You do Say I don't know thatright now.
That's something I'll have tofigure out and that has helped
me so much in life to, I think,with everything, with my kids,
(44:40):
with profession.
You know it's like no one'sgoing to know everything all the
time.
It's not possible.
It's just not possible.
But if you're able to figure itout after, like that, that's
when you know you're able toshine on some of that stuff.
But it's so important to nothave to have the answer right
away and that's okay and I think.
(45:02):
I think being able to not haveto rush through that has been an
incredible gift in my life andit sounds like yours too.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah, absolutely yeah one, one of my pet pieces
people who know everything.
Oh yeah, it's really tiresomeand I think it's much more
interesting to be with peoplewho are asking questions and are
curious and and and want tojointly find the answer, and,
(45:32):
and then, you know, ask morequestions when you have that
answer and keep going, sodefinitely.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Well, I know we, I know you have something to go to
.
So we have one more question.
We'll kind of wrap things up,but honestly, I could keep
talking to you and I will besure to be courteous at your
time.
So, with that, so we have thisquestion that we always use at
the end.
That is the what is on your,what is on your this is
(45:59):
happening list, and really theseare things that you know have
been, have been or you'refeeling in the moment of you
know, as you were talking aboutit before at the end of my life,
like what will I have said,what that I haven't done, or the
impact that I really want tomake, or the things that and the
(46:22):
people that I have met andconnected with.
What is it that I don't want tosay hasn't happened or that I
haven't done yet, and it doesn'thave to be traveling to you
know, whatever it can be.
But I think it's greater thanthat and just would be curious
if there's anything on your thisis happening list that's either
(46:43):
coming up soon or you'd like tosee happen in the next few
years.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
So I wouldn't say it's be and all be all, but in
terms of what I'm really doingright now, because I'm going
through a lot of sort oftransitioning and changing we
sold our house where our kidsgrew up about two years ago and
we are building a little housein Mexico and actually this week
(47:14):
we're closing out a piece ofland in Greece and we're doing
some sort of slightly out there,like this sounds fun to us,
like we try some differentthings and if we're wrong we'll,
then we'll change course andwe'll do something different.
(47:35):
But I think that it felt like wewant to go see the world and we
want to experience othercultures and we want to try some
things that are different thanwhat we've done before, and this
is a good time in our life todo that, and so because both our
kids are off at college now andso it's so yeah, so that for us
(48:02):
is sort of how do we craft thisnext chapter?
To look and feel both fun andinteresting and expand ourselves
and our kids and meet newpeople but also hopefully create
(48:22):
places where all the friendsthat we have will come spend
time with us.
So I don't know, that's thebiggest thing, just trying to
sort of stay engaged and andthere's nothing like being in
other places that you'reunfamiliar with you have to be
(48:42):
paying attention and and that'sthat's fun for us.
So that's what we're up to, wow.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
And that sounds amazing.
So yeah, I'll be there.
I was going to say Eileen ismentally booking her trips.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
That's great.
Yeah, every time I see picturesof Greece, it just looks like
it looks like the mostphenomenal water paintings that
you'll ever see, and anytime Isee anything from Mexico, I
think I want to just put my toesin the sand and, you know, see
(49:20):
the cities and do all the things.
So I wish you the best of luckand I think it's going to be
really exciting for you.
And that's just so exciting.
It's awesome.
I'm playing.
Would you mind giving us someof your social media places
where people can connect withyou?
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Absolutely so.
The easiest place is my website, which is Langrickerscom, but I
also am on LinkedIn atLangrickers and I'm at.
I have a site for an Instagramsite for my book, which is
Morning Underscore Leaves,underscore Book, and those are
(49:59):
probably the best three placesand love to hear from people.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
That's great, lang.
Thank you so much for your timeand for those of you who
haven't seen it yet, get to anindie bookstore, get to a
regular bookstore, get onlineand go and get yourself a copy
of Morning Leaves by Langrickers, because it is a gift.
(50:24):
On behalf of Eileen Grimes andmyself, I thank you, lang, for
joining us and for our wonderfulaudience, who listens to us
talk to so many fantastic people.
We thank you, and this closesout our episode of you Only Go
Once.
Take care everyone.
Bye.
Hi, this is Line Rickers.
When you look back on your life, I hope you have a sense that
you took chances and that youare able to live and love fully,
because you only go once.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, hello, hello, welcome everyone to you.
Only Go Once.
I'm here with my gloriousco-host, eileen Grimes, and
we're here with a fantasticguest, eileen, kick us off.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Thanks, cheryl.
So today we have Lange Rickers,who is the leader in the field
of obstructive sleep apnea, orOSA.
I'm very interested to get morein depth into this, so an often
hidden and potentially fatalmedical condition.
After her sister died ofundiagnosed OSA, Lange sought
solace from nature andcreativity and wrote Morning
(00:51):
Leaves, a book of poetry to helpothers navigate grief.
Permission now is to save livesby encouraging people to
recognize the symptoms of OSAand take better care of
themselves and their loved ones.
So welcome Lange, it's sowonderful to have you here
tonight.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
It's great to be here , yeah so oh my gosh, I don't
know.
I feel like we could kick thisoff in so many different
directions, but you know, Ithink talking about probably the
beginning it seems like abeginning to end kind of
timeline makes sense for all ofthis stuff.
So you know, obviously we knowthat your sister had passed.
(01:31):
You know that's what sparked alot of the things that you're
doing.
Were you, were you working inobstructive sleep apnea?
Prior to that, I was.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I had co -founded a business that makes medical
devices that treat people withobstructive sleep apnea.
It's the leading alternative toCPAP, which is the face mask
that blows air, and the devicesthat we make are oral appliances
.
It's a company called Prosamnes, and they are custom made for
(02:01):
each patient and they're reallycomfortable and they work really
well.
And so we, you know, hadfounded this business and
getting it started and, in theprocess, started to hear from
mostly from my niece about someof the symptoms that my sister
was suffering from.
She was snoring very loudly andshe was tired all the time, she
(02:23):
needed to take daytime naps andexperiencing moodiness, and,
because of my work, I knew thatthose were some of the symptoms
of OSA and I suggested that sheget tested and, you know, for
whatever reason, sheunfortunately did not and she
(02:46):
ended up in atrial fibrillation,which is highly correlated with
OSA, in December of 2019.
And she was only 46.
It was horrible, it was reallysad and really shocking and so,
yeah, so that was sort of thebeginning of it all, of at least
the part that led to somewriting and some other
(03:10):
exploration.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah.
So first of all, I just want tosay I mean, my heart goes out
to you.
I am so sorry for your loss.
I can't, it's unimaginable,truly to go through loss like
that and I'm just so, so sorryto hear that.
And I'm so grateful that you'realso sharing this, because I
you know there's some reallywonderful things you are doing
(03:33):
now to help others around this,and you know I'll let Cheryl
talk a little bit on some ofthose things too, but I just am
so grateful for you being hereto be able to take what's
happened now and then bring itout in a way that supports other
people through this.
So that's extremely brave ofyou to do that work.
(03:55):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Well, thank you, and it's very helpful to me as well.
So I do hope that OSA issomething that's really
treatable and it doesn't need tohappen to any other families.
So I'm spending a lot of mytime trying to get the word out
and educate people and make surepeople know what their options
are and when they should gospeak with a doctor.
So it's nice it actually issort of a gift to be in a
(04:19):
position that I'm in where I canactually do something, as
opposed to just grieving it's.
It certainly is helpful.
I'm sure, cheryl, you probablyhave found something similar to
in your process.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yes, for sure, and I also echo Eileen Sentimentz.
I am very sorry about the lossof your sister and I can't
imagine what that was like foryour nieces and for you and for
your family.
The one thing so, first of all,I I devoured this book, and
this book that I'm referencingfor the people that are on audio
is called Morning Leaves.
It is a beautiful collection ofpoetry and reflections on loss,
(04:58):
grief and connection.
Lange wrote it and the artworkis by Kelly Lehi Rading it.
You know this definitely takesyou away and I would imagine
during your grieving process youfelt like you just needed a
moment, right.
So can you tell me a little bitabout how the book came to be
(05:19):
in terms of your connection withnature?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I well, I should say just for context, my sister
passed away right beforelockdown and COVID.
I live in Southern Californiaand so, like everybody else, you
know, we were stuck at home andand really frightened deeply
right by everything that washappening and what we were
seeing around the world.
(05:45):
And you know, one of the thingsthat was most helpful was to
get outside and to move and youknow, fortunately I lived in a
place where that was reallyenjoyable to do and you know the
weather was cooperative and andall that.
So my husband and I would goout every day and walk a lot and
(06:06):
you know I think the walkingwas helpful, both just the
physicality of it, but also justconnecting with you know, the
natural world was reallyimportant and just to see both
the perspective of sort of howsmall we humans are and but also
(06:26):
to see how sort of persistentand generative nature is and and
beautiful and, and I think thatyou know the combination of all
those things keep you hopefuland you know, and really keep
you moving forward and helpthink, you know, keep things
otherwise in really goodperspective.
(06:46):
So so that was that was reallypart of it and you know to to be
able to take, be in a placewhere you know things were
really blooming and there was alot, you know they were going
through the seasons, was helpfulas well.
And there's a little bit ofgoing through the seasons in my
(07:08):
book.
Not not live, not quite, youknow, not in a literal sense, I
don't sort of say, and this is amonth, but, but I do think that
there was a passing through oftime and and nature's
metamorphosis itself is, youknow, sort of a part of our own
journey.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So it was great.
Yeah, it's really.
It is a beautiful book, notonly in the sense of it's
literally beautiful.
So, folks, if you go out to anyof the major or indie on online
sites, you can get to see howgorgeous it is.
Your writing was so effectivein that I felt like so there's a
couple of mostly all the poemsreflect around something in
(07:48):
nature, whether it's fruits orplants or anything like that.
Like I felt, like I could tastethe pomegranates.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I felt like.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I could run my hands across the the dune grass, like
there was just like I felt likeI was in the redwoods when you
were talking.
So all that is exquisite and Ilove how you.
It's a gift in two ways.
Number one it's a gift to those, I think, who are grieving.
People would receive this as away to reflect and just feel
(08:17):
calmer.
And then the second piece isyou give a lot of resources
around OSA, so I want to comeback to that a little bit.
How did you even get startedwith sleep apnea?
How did how did that becomeyour ultimate interests in life?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
So I spent about 20 years in private equity
investing in medical devicecompanies, and I was working
with a couple of the other cofounders of this business at
another company.
The original product forPrasamnus was developed at
another, at a predecessorcompany, and Okay.
(08:55):
Yeah, it just started sort oftaking off and we got very
excited about it and we sold offall of the other assets of the
business and and reinvested inthis one and it's been fantastic
.
We you know it's grown.
We founded it in 2016 and it'sgrown very nicely and we were
lucky enough, we took it publicon Nasdaq last December.
(09:18):
So, congratulations, yeah,thank you.
Yeah, it's doing really, reallywell and it's yeah, it's it's
just a special combination of,you know, being able to do
something that you feelpassionate about and, you know,
have it thrive as a business,and so it's going great.
I feel I feel very lucky to bein the spot that.
(09:39):
I mean, you know it's one ofthose luck is a lot of.
There's a lot of hard work andbeing in the right place, yes,
but it's, it is.
It's a great thing and you know, like I said, to be able to Put
my professional knowledge towork to educate people around,
something that I feel, so youknow, personally connected to is
(10:00):
Is a really exceptional thingto get to do.
I really I don't take that forgranted for a second, and
there's just a lot.
There is a lot to do becausethere's, you know.
I'll just spout off a couple ofthe statistics, because there's
there are Estimated to be onebillion people globally who have
OSA and 80% are undiagnosed.
(10:23):
Wow, you've got lots and lotsof people who you know are at
risk for Serious cardiovascularDiseases, plus diabetes and
cancer.
And so, you know, to helpeducate people and and you know,
in the case of personas, alsogive them treatment options that
(10:45):
are alternatives to CPAP arereally important because a lot
of people, even if they Thinkthat they might have OSA,
they're so frightened thatthey're going to Get diagnosed
and have to wear a mask for therest of their lives that they'll
put their head in the sand andjust ignore it.
And then the other thing is it.
It has historically been quitechallenging for people to get
(11:07):
diagnosed because, yep, peopleneeded to go into sleep labs and
who wanted to do that?
Unfortunately, home sleeptesting has really become Very
widely acceptable, except notacceptable accepted and
reimbursed by medical insurance,and so it's gotten easier and
easier for people to getdiagnosed.
(11:27):
And you know now there's justother kinds of treatments
available and choices forpatients to make.
So Hopefully, you know, peoplewill become more aware, you know
they'll get more educated,they'll get more comfortable
with doing the sleep test andthen they'll feel more
comfortable that they can Find atreatment that works for them,
because sleep apnea isn'tsomething that can be cured at
(11:48):
this point.
It does require nightly,lifetime treatment.
So a patient has to findSomething that they're
comfortable with it, that worksfor their lifestyle, and so you
know that's been the thing withpersonas.
That's been so Exciting isbecause it really it looks sort
of like invisible line.
It's, you know, clear mouthguard right, a little bit
(12:09):
heavier gauge, and it has postson the upper and lower splint to
hold the jaw forwarding andkeep the airway open.
But you can drink water and youcan talk and you can get up and
use the restroom, and so it's,it's very easy for people.
It's, you know, socially itdoesn't have the kind of stigma
that people worry about and it'snot interfering with your bed
(12:29):
partners Sleep because there'sno noise, there's no hoses,
there's.
You know those are the thingsthat you can do, you know those
kinds of things.
So those factors matter.
I mean, we're dealing withpeople and they're day to day,
real lives and you know, to makesure that patients will adhere
to the treatment is Is a bigfactor and so so, yeah, so it's
(12:51):
one of the reasons that it wasgreat to go public was just help
to, you know, get the word outand make sure that people you
know knew that there was, youknow, these kinds of
alternatives out there and andso you know we're we're
investing in salespeople andpublic relations and those kinds
of activities.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Sure, all the getting the word out piece of that.
It's incredibly important, andStanding out above the crowd is
certainly something that is canbe difficult to do and so
important to to get those things.
I'm fascinated and definitely Iwant to look into this.
So for the technology thatyou're using right now, actually
(13:34):
, let me step back real quickly.
We talked a little bit aboutsymptoms.
Are there?
Are there sort of symptomspeople can share?
I mean, we say that 80 ofpeople are undiagnosed.
So what does that look like?
We so, and also none of it.
We're not physicians tellingyou that this is Correct, what
it is.
So if you have any concerns,talk to your doctors.
(13:55):
This is not a place for us toprescribe anything.
Just put that little caveat inthere.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, absolutely, um so, um yeah, my first
recommendation is always speakto your doctor and a primary
care doctor, a pulmonologist, acardiologist, even a, you know,
a sleep trained dentist is is agood resource, but a so the the
typical symptoms are snoring,daytime sleepiness, waking up
(14:25):
with a dry mouth, waking up sortof gasping.
Um, depression is is correlatedwith it, and it's often the
person's bed partner who is theone who Um recognizes it.
And so you know you hear thesnoring, they hear the gasping
or the or the pausing of ofbreathing, and it often scares
(14:46):
them.
So you know, in the industrypeople talk about the elbow test
.
You know if, if someone'sneeding to elbow you, it's
because they're concerned andbecause either you're keeping
them awake from your snoring orbecause they're worried that
you're not breathing, and sothat's that's often the one of
the leading indicators that getspeople to talk to their doctor.
(15:07):
Unfortunately, we just did astudy and most people, even if
they know that they're snoring,aren't sure who to talk to.
That is a concern as well.
Our direct customers are sleepdentists.
These are specialized dentistswho have been trained in sleep
(15:30):
medicine.
As you said, there areresources in my book that point
to different websites that haveinformation.
Also, my website,langreakerscom, has links to
these websites.
There's also we've recentlycreated a website and it's easy
to remember because it's no moreOSA and it's KNOW.
(15:53):
Of course, it's also the planwords of N-O-D-O.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Okay, show us it's.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
KNOW no more OSAcom.
If you go there, to that site,it will give a questionnaire
that will tell you whether ornot you're at high risk and it
takes you through some of thethose kinds of questions and
then has a provider link ifsomeone is interested in finding
(16:18):
a specialist.
But speak to your own doctor aswell.
There are lots ofwell-qualified people who can
help with the situation.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
It's incredibly helpful.
I have family members that haveit and have used CPAPs and all
of those things.
It is incredibly helpful tohave that knowledge at the very
minimum, to be able to go totalk to a professional to get
what you need done.
One thank you for sharing that.
(16:48):
Two, I am so fascinated withall these new capabilities.
There's this that you have withprosomeness.
There are these new breastpumps for women that don't have
all the.
We're connected to every singlething and it's just a lot more
discrete and makes you feel morenormal.
(17:10):
If quote unquote, I love theamount that technology can truly
help people live their livesday to day in a way that makes
them feel comfortable andconfident.
This sounds like another one ofthose options.
But, yeah, so with that, yousaid your primary target, or
(17:32):
clients, are working with thesedentists.
I didn't even know that was athing a sleep dentist.
I didn't know what you were.
I'm very curious.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
They're trained typically as regular dentists,
and then they go back foradditional education and so they
get the training and then theway that the sort of path for a
patient is that they need to bediagnosed by a physician because
it's a serious medicalcondition.
(18:03):
Yeah, the sleep study isadministered and read and the
diagnosis is given by aphysician and then, depending on
the treatment that the patientis getting, they direct the
patient to different kinds ofspecialists.
So, for instance, if you'regetting a CPAP, they'll send you
to a respiratory therapist whowill fit the mask.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And if you're getting an oral appliance, the most
typical is for it to go to asleep dentist, and so they,
because they're used to workingin the oral cavity, they are
specialists in that area andoccasionally ENTs.
Particularly in Europe it'scommon for ENTs also to work in
(18:45):
the oral cavity, but in the USit's largely sleep dentists, and
it's a specialty that many ofthem are getting into, and I
think, particularly as thetechnology develops and gets
better and better and themedical community gets more
comfortable with oral solutions,it's a feedback loop that the
(19:12):
doctors are comfortablereferring the patients.
The more they need thereferrals to the dentists, the
more dentists get into it, andso it's definitely a growing and
strengthening field.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah, and I mean it makes so much sense.
I even just for me at least Iam a.
I have Bruxism, so I'm anexcellent teeth grinder at night
, and so having dentists be ableto go and then be able to see
and understand those kinds ofthings and how that links to
other health things that aregoing on, is just incredibly
(19:43):
helpful, and I think there'seven some cancer screenings that
dentists have been able to dorecently too.
I just it's it's kind ofamazing how the field has grown
to be able to look at that sortof holistic health, not just
within what's happening in themouth.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So yeah, there's a lot of growing understanding of
larger health issues beingidentifiable in the mouth, so
yeah, so OK, so back to the bookstuff.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Did you know you wanted to be a published author
your whole life?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
No, I had no plans to write a book at all.
I, you know, I do have lots offriends who you know sort of on
their bucket list of things todo, and it was not online.
I did not think of myself thatway and it was the way it came
about.
Was I read Julia Cameron's theArtist Way during COVID and I
(20:43):
was looking to do something morecreative.
I had this need to makesomething and I actually thought
that it would be sculpture orjewelry or something sort of
tactile and physical.
But I it was.
I had no skills I had, I had notools.
I was in lockdown.
So and she recommends writing ajournal every morning before
(21:10):
doing anything else.
So you wake up and you have towrite three pages before even
speaking your first word.
And so, wow, I really adheredto her advice and if you haven't
read her book, it's just Ithought it was fantastic and you
know it's now been around 25years.
I think it's right.
It's really tried and true inthat way.
(21:32):
So the poems were really allwritten in that very early
morning, sort of fuzzy while Ineed between dream state and
being fully awake, and that wasimportant for what I was dealing
with.
I needed to be able to getbelow the analytical head and
(21:54):
sort of for into what was goingon, you know, more at the soul
level, and I hadn't written muchpoetry before and it was just
sort of what came out and I had.
Every morning I would wake upand I felt very connected to a
particular plant and that and itwas, and that's what they all
(22:17):
became.
They were sort of I wasprocessing some emotion or some
experience and I would have thisand I wasn't over thinking it.
It just sort of showed up andand it helped me work through a
lot of things and and it wasjust a gift, I it was in one of
(22:40):
your sort of here Sometimespeople who write songs say like
I could just hear it and it was.
That was more of the experienceI had than actively writing
something.
It was more just listening towhat was in my head and my body
and and getting it out on paper.
So it was great and and I Iultimately, you know, at first I
(23:05):
had, you know, months ofjournals and some of them were
just, you know, gobbledygook,nothing Of course.
Others you know that I thoughtwere worth saving and and I was
really very in touch with thisidea of my sister leaving her
daughter before she was ready togo.
(23:29):
I have no doubt of that.
And so this sense of gosh.
What if I go?
What about my children?
What have I not told them?
I was doing a lot of like.
You know, you have to make yourbed when you go to someone's
house, or something Right.
It was little things, but thenalso wanting to make sure the
(23:51):
bigger things of like, do youknow me, do you know who I am,
if something happened to me?
And so I thought, well, Ishould type up some of this
because I could explain it tothem in a way that I thought
would be informative.
And so I started with thatprocess and then realized that
(24:12):
they weren't, as they were moreuniversal, they weren't as truly
personal or uniquely orexclusively personal.
So in a better way is it?
And so started sort oforganizing them and then sort of
hemmed in how I look, do theyshare this with anybody?
And I was very apprehensive andself-conscious and unsure of it.
(24:39):
And so I have a couple offriends who are real writers and
I reached out to them and theywere wonderful, they were really
encouraging and that washelpful to have people sort of
(25:00):
give those initial nods.
And I needed that.
I needed somebody to say like,okay, you're just fine here and
you can keep going and pursue it.
And so I did.
I felt like there were littlebreadcrumbs every time I had
(25:22):
these kinds of doubts.
I don't know, the universewould just put something in
front of me that might be oh,all right, I guess I got to keep
going, or I could readsomething that would be like, oh
, that's still sort of like asign like I got to keep going,
I'd meet somebody, or whateverit was.
So it was a really special,probably once in a lifetime kind
(25:44):
of experience that I got tohave, and so I felt lucky, I'm
very lucky, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Well, so at this point I might as well just leave
, because I think you and Cherylare going to have a lot.
So go on, Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
It's really funny because hearing you, it sounded
very similar.
And Eileen, you wrote a booktoo.
So I'm sure there were moments,as Lang was talking, that was
definitely like oh yeah, I wentthrough that, you betcha, I
found that my writing was thebest at 4.30 in the morning.
I have two really weird dogsthat insist on eating at 4
(26:23):
o'clock in the morning, so I getup with them, feed them, and
then I would get onto my phoneand go oh, I just thought about
this and type it down, and thenI would conk out for the day and
that's kind of how a lot of mypoems got written.
I also went through this seriouslike I don't think this is a
good idea, I don't know.
(26:44):
And Eileen was barking at me,our friend Mae was barking at me
.
I had a whole bunch of friendsthat were going no, keep going,
this will be helpful.
And I actually shut downeverything.
So I'm self-published.
I know that you are notself-published, but I'm
self-published.
So I definitely shut everythingdown for a month.
I mean I had finished with theillustrator, I had finished with
(27:04):
the editors and I was like Idon't think this is going to.
I don't know, I don't think so.
And then it felt like the endof 2022 and the beginning of
2023, in particular, choseviolence, like it just felt like
everyone around me was losingsomebody and it just felt heavy
(27:25):
and I thought, all right, and Ialways had my one friend, julie,
in the back of my head going Ifeel like this book will help
people.
And I said OK, so I finished itand I put it out there and I
almost threw up and it was fineand it went out there, it's fine
.
So I just I hear a lot of whatyou're saying and it actually
gave me great comfort.
I'm sorry that you haddiscomfort, but it gave me
(27:47):
comfort in knowing that theprocess was very similar for you
, because I know for me I wasjust out of my mind most of the
time, going like oh, I don'tknow if this is going to happen
or not.
I'm so glad I did it.
I'm hoping that it's not theend for me.
In terms of writing, is thissomething that you want to
pursue or do you really thinklike this is maybe this is it
(28:11):
for me, or do you want to pursueother writing?
Since you have all those otherjournals, do you think that
there's other books in therewaiting to be birthed?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I have a draft of something else that I'm playing
with and I'm kind of waiting tosee how this one does and Kelly
and I have talked I know shealso would be interested in.
We had so much fun.
I mean we really just loved itand the process of collaborating
(28:44):
with her was as good as it gets.
I mean we just we were able toconnect every day and provision
for it was really similar and wewere able to just be somewhat
playful with it in terms ofwanting it to have it and needed
to have a certain gravitasbecause of the subject.
(29:04):
But I also wanted it to havesome of the exploration and the
feeling of like a children'sbook where you're looking for
things, like I always loved theWhere's Waldo or the Richard's
Scary, or like where you werelooking for the little details.
So we have a lot of fun, youknow, put even like if you've
(29:27):
got the book in front of you,even on the cover, like a little
tiny ladybug who's you knowright under where it says grief.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, like these little tiny touches that maybe
someone notices and maybe theydon't, but we did and we you
know, and you know choosing theribbon and you know wanting the
linen and all of the details ofhow it looked and felt and the
weight of the paper and thedensity of the art throughout it
(29:56):
, and I felt really stronglythat it have enough space in it.
I feel like when you're moving,you can't process very or as
much as you normally can.
Like you know, everything's alittle bit in slow motion, like
you're underwater, and so to beable to just have a little light
(30:18):
and space between things, andtruthfully, you know, I wouldn't
be surprised.
I said, certainly for myselfwhen I was first going through
it, I maybe could have looked atthe pictures.
I couldn't read one that, butlife, that first month or so I
just Mm-hmm, and, and so youknow that that may end up being
(30:41):
you know what's appropriate forsomebody at one moment.
And then maybe they'll read apoem or two at a time, or maybe
Eventually they'll sit down andread it, start to finish what it
whatever.
The nice thing is, it kind oflends itself to meeting people
where they are at the time andso so, yeah, so we had fun doing
it and I think we would love todo it again.
(31:03):
But if, if the world says thisis great and we'd love more of
it, then great.
I, otherwise I, you know, Ihave to Sort of go, okay.
Well, maybe that was somethingthat was really wonderful to do
and I'll move on and spend moretime on my Day job or whatever
it might be.
So.
So we'll see, but it's, youknow, people have been extremely
(31:24):
nice and you know it's earlydays, so it's it's hard.
I'm sure you have this too, butwhat made both of you where
people go well, how's it goingRight?
I have no idea.
Like you know it's not.
You know it's not a completefailure and I'm not on the New
York Times bestseller list.
It's right that right pastmiddle, I don't know, but I I
(31:45):
feel happy.
You know, it's like Just havingeven a couple people,
particularly people that I don'tknow.
Yeah, see, this really Matterto me, or I touched me or I
related to it, or those Comments.
I don't know if people realizehow Important that is to hear
for me.
(32:05):
I mean, it's really because it'sthe reason to do it, Otherwise
I would have, sure, you know,kept it for my kids and put it
in a drawer, and and so you know, I think that notion of helping
others is such a gratifyingpiece of this whole process, and
so I, you know that Feels good,so I like, sure sure.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, the last time I checked, I am part of this
world and I hope you do more ofthis because it is really.
It's an exquisite book and itis a gift for Anybody who
purchases it and anybody whowill receive it as a gift.
I just think it's.
It is a lovely, lovely book andI love, in particular, how you
had that wonderful partnershipwith your, with your illustrator
(32:52):
, your artist.
I my story on my artworkbecause mine is not as detailed
as yours, mine is mostly sectionbreaks and things like that.
I'm a big fan of shellSilverstein and it was that I
wanted to capture that nostalgiaand I had talked to my former
art teacher who we hadinterviewed, and she is the
(33:16):
department head of forensicillustration right now at Penn
West and that is in Erie,pennsylvania, and I, you know, I
didn't know what I was doing.
So I was like, hi, would you bewilling to illustrate?
And after she got done,laughing because she's involved
in 80 bajillion things yeah, Iget.
(33:36):
If you listen to that podcastyou would understand why.
And she said but I have a lotof students that are looking for
experience and she hooked me upwith Olivia and Olivia Sutton
for those that are listening outthere, she is going to light
the art world on fire and shekind of got it.
And I love it.
When you know, writers andartists kind of connect in that
(33:59):
special way, and I loved hearingyour story about that as well,
because once they get it it'salmost like your words have that
extra Substance to it.
Right, because everything kindof connects.
And I felt that way about yourstoo.
The writing was exquisite, butI love the way how the pictures
it gave that additional feel ofyou know, being enveloped in
(34:22):
something so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
So you know Kelly is an incredibly generous Artist
and she put, she spent a yearand a half doing.
You know they're almost 80paintings in here and she it.
But you know it also is reallynice to she talks about how
she's been painting.
You know she's been paintingfor whatever many years, for
years, and For her it was areally special process because
(34:49):
often she's painting, you know,a bird or a landscape or an
animal of some sort, but theyweren't always hooked to
something, whereas, you know,this was a body of work with a
very clear purpose and adirection, and and so I think
that for her was Was a specialopportunity as well.
(35:13):
And so, yeah, we spent some, wehad so much fun.
I mean, you know we would meet.
She lives in Connecticut, notfar from where my parents have a
place, and I, you know, wewould meet periodically and you
know we'd go through the youknow color of the background of
the papers and then you knowwhich ones would follow which,
and you know and then which ofthe little paintings on the you
(35:34):
know right side would go withthe bigger one.
You know, and just making youknow what was symbolic with what
, and it was to have somebody asEntwined in the process as I
was needed, a Different kind ofprocess than I had had
experience before and and muchless lonely and and she was just
(35:58):
.
You know, she's a formal, wellrespected, known artist and so
that also was helpful for mebecause I have a ton of respect.
I were artists that I didn'tappreciate the vulnerability
that they have.
I mean creating something newand different and putting it
(36:20):
into the world.
Is one of the scariest things,and particularly when you're
doing it alone.
So for me to have to do it inpartnership with Kelly helped a
lot, I mean, even though ourpieces were separate in certain
ways.
It is that fear, right of that,of putting your son in the case
(36:41):
of this, was a personal to toput it out into the world.
And you know I tend to be veryoptimistic and and you know,
sort of a glass half full person.
But you know there's alsodarkness out there in the world
and there's some not greatpeople and and not nice people
(37:01):
and you know, just sort ofvoluntarily.
You know, go into open water isis a big thing.
I'm sure both of you guys havedone that.
You're writing and I, havingnot done it before, I just
didn't realize that every timean artist was putting something
(37:21):
out there that they probablywere going through that as well.
So it made me a little kinder,little slower, gentler other
artists too.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
So I told Cheryl I Watched the love.
I love Brunne Brown.
I just do.
I watch her special on Netflix.
I think it was in 2020 that thatone came out, yeah, and I just
like I went to it multiple timesbecause that was while I was
writing the book, right, and ittalks about the man in the arena
(37:55):
, and so I and I actually sentit to Cheryl the other day for
something but also the conceptthat you are putting yourself
out there.
People can say all they wantuntil you're also In it.
One, you're gentle.
You're generally more gentleand kind with other people who
(38:15):
are also doing that and puttingthemselves out there, because
you, you know what it takes andhow much it can hurt and how
much it just means so deeply toto be out there.
And I guarantee you any of thethree of us on this call would
like.
I am in high support of everyonethat is doing that kind of work
(38:36):
.
I'm not gonna go in and startmaking comments on Twitter or
whatever it is, just trying tobash somebody because they're
they're doing something rightthere, they're in the middle of
it.
Like, at least try, if you'regonna give me feedback, the only
people I'm gonna take feedbackfrom or from other people who
are actually doing the work too.
So you know that for me atleast, that was what helped
(38:58):
combat some of those right,because it is, it's very
vulnerable.
It's very scary to just say,well, I don't have any control
now over how people respond tothis or how they see it, and To
keep going like that wassomething that just helped in
the back of my mind and now Isee it, because I'm Now with
Cheryl doing this and thecommunity of people that have
(39:19):
supported me through that andeven laying I know you're with
with Mary's group and stuff likethat like having having those
people surrounding you that arealso Doing that work and being
vulnerable and sharing thosepieces of themselves Make it a
lot easier.
So you don't feel so alone,completely agree finding your
(39:41):
community of people in this.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
it for me has been really important and it's and
fun, like it's just the learndifferent things.
It's been so expansive for meand you know that obviously,
right where you take the biggestrisks, you also grow the most
and the most it can be the mostrewarding.
(40:05):
I mean, you know for me, Iguess that in a lot of ways
almost all of the things that Ihoped to get out of the book,
some ways I already have.
You know I I would love forother people to you know, enjoy
it and get something from it andbuy it and all of those other
things.
But you know the most importantstuff I've gotten from from the
(40:31):
process and the people thathave already sort of contributed
to it all.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
So yeah, so I'm curious.
It's just from listening to youand how you've gone even from
you know some of the investmentside of things into this
technology piece and writing abook, it seems like you're
really open to possibility.
Would I be correct in sayingthat?
It just feels like you're kindof like oh, this feels right to
(40:58):
me and you seem really in touchwith, like the gut feeling, as
we call it right, and when yourbody is trying to communicate
something, has that always beensomething that has just been a
piece of who you are?
Have you worked on it?
I just I think that's soincredibly important for the
(41:19):
opportunity for growth and foryou know, for our listeners.
Right, it's like well, how do Istart doing this?
I think the just even beingable to be open to the fact that
you might do somethingdifferent is a huge piece of it.
So I'm curious what does thatlook for you through your life
and or what are things that youdo to keep yourself open?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
So, yes, I would agree, I am open to possibility
and I do.
And I think also, as I'vegotten older, I trust my gut and
my instinct a lot more, I'veprobably.
I, I guess that I think aboutlike my book in two pieces and
maybe there are good analogy forthe rest of myself too, like
(42:03):
the poems that I wrote in thatsort of twilight-y, very sort of
spiritual, sort of subconsciouspart of my brain.
And I think one of my friendsis like oh, that's theta, you
know, that's when you're brainis, yeah, sure, and you know,
but then, like the introductionwas, you know, that's like the
(42:24):
academic that's, you know,that's much more the analytical,
the academic, you know, that'slike the after coffee writing.
And and I would say that I haveboth, you know, in my day to
day life I have both sides alsothat I tend to, if I'm really
making big decisions, I go withmy instinct, I go with my gut
(42:47):
and if I go against it.
I almost always regret it.
I mean I just I and and and.
The more that I know that aboutthe myself, the more highly
tuned I get to that.
And it doesn't mean that Idon't use the other part of my
brain to, you know, do the listsand you know, check the numbers
(43:08):
and you know, do do theanalytical sort of cross tab.
But.
But important decisions are, aregut decisions for me and, and
probably more so than for somepeople, I tend to lean more that
direction and yeah, I think forother people, I think a lot of
(43:30):
that comes from listening andpaying attention and, as you say
, sort of staying open, thatthat maybe you don't know the
answer, that maybe you have tofind it and and seek it, and you
know, listen for it and see ifit's out there or it is out
there, whatever answered it.
(43:51):
You know the answer is outthere and you can either sort of
force it or you can let it cometo you.
And sometimes I'm also tryingto get a lot better.
I don't know the answer yet, Ican't make no yet and and
trusting that to to just go, Ican't make that decision.
I'm not there yet.
It's just, I don't have all thepieces, I don't have enough
information I wish I did, but Idon't and just sitting with it.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
So I think that was one of the best things that I
learned when I was getting mymaster's in education was like,
don't pretend, like you know theanswer.
That was.
That was one of the things thatthe professors told us Like, if
you don't know the answer,don't say.
You do Say I don't know thatright now.
That's something I'll have tofigure out and that has helped
me so much in life to, I think,with everything, with my kids,
(44:40):
with profession.
You know it's like no one'sgoing to know everything all the
time.
It's not possible.
It's just not possible.
But if you're able to figure itout after, like that, that's
when you know you're able toshine on some of that stuff.
But it's so important to nothave to have the answer right
away and that's okay and I think.
(45:02):
I think being able to not haveto rush through that has been an
incredible gift in my life andit sounds like yours too.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah, absolutely yeah one, one of my pet pieces
people who know everything.
Oh yeah, it's really tiresomeand I think it's much more
interesting to be with peoplewho are asking questions and are
curious and and and want tojointly find the answer, and,
(45:32):
and then, you know, ask morequestions when you have that
answer and keep going, sodefinitely.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Well, I know we, I know you have something to go to
.
So we have one more question.
We'll kind of wrap things up,but honestly, I could keep
talking to you and I will besure to be courteous at your
time.
So, with that, so we have thisquestion that we always use at
the end.
That is the what is on your,what is on your this is
(45:59):
happening list, and really theseare things that you know have
been, have been or you'refeeling in the moment of you
know, as you were talking aboutit before at the end of my life,
like what will I have said,what that I haven't done, or the
impact that I really want tomake, or the things that and the
(46:22):
people that I have met andconnected with.
What is it that I don't want tosay hasn't happened or that I
haven't done yet, and it doesn'thave to be traveling to you
know, whatever it can be.
But I think it's greater thanthat and just would be curious
if there's anything on your thisis happening list that's either
(46:43):
coming up soon or you'd like tosee happen in the next few
years.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
So I wouldn't say it's be and all be all, but in
terms of what I'm really doingright now, because I'm going
through a lot of sort oftransitioning and changing we
sold our house where our kidsgrew up about two years ago and
we are building a little housein Mexico and actually this week
(47:14):
we're closing out a piece ofland in Greece and we're doing
some sort of slightly out there,like this sounds fun to us,
like we try some differentthings and if we're wrong we'll,
then we'll change course andwe'll do something different.
(47:35):
But I think that it felt like wewant to go see the world and we
want to experience othercultures and we want to try some
things that are different thanwhat we've done before, and this
is a good time in our life todo that, and so because both our
kids are off at college now andso it's so yeah, so that for us
(48:02):
is sort of how do we craft thisnext chapter?
To look and feel both fun andinteresting and expand ourselves
and our kids and meet newpeople but also hopefully create
(48:22):
places where all the friendsthat we have will come spend
time with us.
So I don't know, that's thebiggest thing, just trying to
sort of stay engaged and andthere's nothing like being in
other places that you'reunfamiliar with you have to be
(48:42):
paying attention and and that'sthat's fun for us.
So that's what we're up to, wow.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
And that sounds amazing.
So yeah, I'll be there.
I was going to say Eileen ismentally booking her trips.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
That's great.
Yeah, every time I see picturesof Greece, it just looks like
it looks like the mostphenomenal water paintings that
you'll ever see, and anytime Isee anything from Mexico, I
think I want to just put my toesin the sand and, you know, see
(49:20):
the cities and do all the things.
So I wish you the best of luckand I think it's going to be
really exciting for you.
And that's just so exciting.
It's awesome.
I'm playing.
Would you mind giving us someof your social media places
where people can connect withyou?
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Absolutely so.
The easiest place is my website, which is Langrickerscom, but I
also am on LinkedIn atLangrickers and I'm at.
I have a site for an Instagramsite for my book, which is
Morning Underscore Leaves,underscore Book, and those are
(49:59):
probably the best three placesand love to hear from people.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
That's great, lang.
Thank you so much for your timeand for those of you who
haven't seen it yet, get to anindie bookstore, get to a
regular bookstore, get onlineand go and get yourself a copy
of Morning Leaves by Langrickers, because it is a gift.
(50:24):
On behalf of Eileen Grimes andmyself, I thank you, lang, for
joining us and for our wonderfulaudience, who listens to us
talk to so many fantastic people.
We thank you, and this closesout our episode of you Only Go
Once.
Take care everyone.
Bye.
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