May 14, 2024 • 61 mins
Joining us is the dynamic Anne Gemmell, a force of nature in policy-making and entrepreneurship, who has left an indelible mark on fields ranging from education to tech. Anne's storytelling captivates as she recounts her pivotal role in Philadelphia's sweeping advancements in early childhood education through the Pre-K for PA campaign. Witness the evolution of a career that refuses to be pinned down, as Anne transitions into a 'collaboration architect', guiding leaders of large institutions in crafting strategic partnerships that reshape problem-solving.
In a candid exchange, Anne and Eileen, both veterans of the chalkboard, reflect on the evolving landscape of education and the challenges that educators and students face in a world increasingly dominated by screens. We share a personal and professional perspective on the digital era's toll on human behavior and mental health, underscored by Anne's own journey towards digital minimalism. This is a story of personal discovery and societal insight, a compelling case for sometimes just unplugging and finding solace and power in reclaiming time and privacy.
As we wrap up, Anne's candor in discussing the highs and lows of her business ventures is both grounding and enlightening. She speaks to the humility of starting anew in life's later chapters and the courage it takes to align one's work with deeply held values. Anne's experiences serve as a compass for navigating the complex terrain of innovation, technology, and business, urging us to redefine success and find harmony between our personal aspirations and professional endeavors. Tune in for a deep dive into the intertwining of policy, collaboration, and the pursuit of a life well-lived.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, I'm Anne Gemmel and I hope when you look back on
your life you know you foundthe courage to begin again,
because you only go once.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good evening listeners.
You are back with us foranother episode of you Only Go
Once.
I am Aileen Grimes and I'm herewith my amazing, wonderful
friend and co-host, cherylCantafio, and we are so excited
tonight to introduce a guesthere on the you Only Go Once
(00:34):
podcast, where we explorestories around the limited time
we have on this earth to createa fully layered life.
Without any further ado, I amgoing to pass it to Cheryl to
introduce our guest for tonight.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Thanks, eileen.
Entrepreneur, collaborationarchitect and pragmatic futurist
Translator from future topresent, from idea to vision to
playbook.
Builder of deep and intentionalcollaboration across sectors
and systems.
Leader of Philadelphia's futureof Work Policy Response In 2016
(01:09):
, led the Equitable Design ofPHL Pre-K Program, which now
provides thousands of childrenwith a quality start to learning
and life.
In 2012, anne Gemmel played akey role leading the effort to
decriminalize marijuana inPhiladelphia.
She is a writer, speaker,advocacy and policy expert and
solopreneur.
Everyone, please welcome AnneGemmel.
(01:30):
Thank you, anne, for joining us.
We're thrilled to have you here.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Thank you, Cheryl and Eileen.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Absolutely.
Yeah, we're so excited there'sso many.
I mean, we were introduced toyou by one of our previous
guests and so excited to to kindof get to know you and I mean
that's for me, this is what'sreally fun is kind of learning
about guests before they come onand seeing all the different
things that they're engaged inin the world, and it gets my, my
(02:00):
brain going down a ton ofrabbit holes.
So I'm very excited to havesome conversations with you
tonight.
So, anne, tell us just a littlebit about you, know the work
that you're doing right now and,yeah, what's kind of lighting
you up in this moment?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Thank, you so much for having me again.
Good question, eileen.
So right now, in the moment, Iam in year four now no, still in
year three, almost in year fourof building my own business
doing consulting work and, overthe pandemic, like a lot of
(02:37):
other people, I had a careerdisruption and decided to become
trained as collaborationarchitect.
So little did I know there'sthis science of collaboration
and there's a certainmethodology for high level
strategic collaborations and Iwas also starting to come into
(02:58):
my own about my expertise andsuperpowers.
You know, when you sit down tostart a business you have to
think about what value can Icreate?
Who is going to pay me to dowhat I had to do, some
reflection about thechange-making that I had done
(03:18):
over the previous 25, 30 yearsor so and really distill that
into a business model.
When everyone said to it'll takeyou three years to figure this
out as a, you know, to figureout your business model and the
iteration, and it definitely hastaken at least that long.
But I think in this day and agethat's just a constant,
(03:39):
constant reevaluation andconstantly listening to clients
and listening to you know.
What do they see that is sovaluable and how to replicate
that.
So right now I'm super excitedabout the clients that I'm
serving.
They have a lot of things incommon.
They tend to be leaders oflarge institutions or large
(04:03):
departments or leaders ofgovernments.
Even so, it's super exciting tosit down with people at that
level and help them solveclearly defined problems.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, and it's.
It's so interesting because I,you know, as you're talking
about sort of that thing in thepandemic is sort of the impetus
for for some of this right.
You know, as we look atsupporting these organizations I
do consulting work also thebusiness world changed after
COVID.
So, whether you know, evenrelying on the skills that we
had in the past didn't evennecessarily, I mean, they
(04:40):
certainly apply, but there's newthings being learned all the
time, and so the evolution ofwhat your business can even be
now is fascinating and wonderful, and there's just so much room
for expansion and growth basedon what you can bring to the
table, and I found that reallyfun to explore and kind of build
(05:01):
towards what your interests are.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Right now I'm trying to movethe business from a space that
just involves me and my skillsand concrete services to a
client around a defined scope toreally distilling my expertise
and organizing it in a way thatfinds a niche market and, you
(05:25):
know, can generate, you know,passive income and reach a
market you know well beyond thenetwork of people I've actually
met or who have heard of me orknow what work I've done in the
past.
So the internet's a wonderfulthing like that.
Of course, there's drawbacks tothe internet.
It's been incredibly disruptiveto lots of our ways of doing
(05:47):
things, but one amazing thingthat it has done is just allowed
people with innovative ideasand expertise to reach so many
more people, whether it's tohelp them or to create value for
them or just to communicate.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
The communication piece is sokey in that right and there's so
many different avenues that youcan go to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
What drew you to government?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So it's kind of an accident actually.
It's a funny story.
I really was an advocate alittle bit of you know.
In advocacy you're asking thepowers that be to take action
and make a change right, whetherit's a law or redesign of a
(06:34):
program or even just theirtalking points.
Right, like change your talkingpoints, talk more about this
issue instead of that issue,talk more about this issue
instead of that issue.
And I was the PennsylvaniaSoutheast Pennsylvania field
director for an advocacycampaign called Pre-K for PA and
we successfully builtrelationships with the governor
(06:58):
in Pennsylvania, governor Wolf.
He invested, you know, over ahundred million dollars more in
early childhood education.
But when I looked atPhiladelphia and looked around
and saw how many three andfour-year-olds we have, we have
40,000 three and four-year-oldsin Philadelphia Even with the
governor adding more and morefunds, it would still have taken
(07:21):
25 years for every three andfour year old to access high
quality pre-K in Philadelphia atthe rate of, you know,
incremental increases in thebudget.
So I went to at that time to acouncil person who was thinking
about running for mayor and toldhim you know how important and
high impact pre-K quality pre-Kwould be.
(07:43):
He agreed he put it into hiscampaign.
Then when he won, you know, andbecame the mayor, he was like,
okay, I've been talking aboutpre-K, now who's going to, like,
lead the charge?
You, you've been talking aboutthis for years, like come on
into government and and do this.
So I really wasn't drawn togovernment.
I was sort of sucked into it asa you know like, hey, big mouth,
(08:07):
come on over here and get itdone now.
So that was, that was great itwas.
It was Mayor Kenney's.
You know I think it'll be theprimary, you know legacy of his,
and of course it wasn't just methere were.
You know there was, and ofcourse it wasn't just me there
was.
You know there was a wholecoalition of amazing advocates
(08:29):
and you know city council peoplethat voted for the soda tax and
it was quite a year of, um, youknow, really a bold thing like,
and it was.
It's a great experience.
So governments, governments uh,not, you know it's, it's like I
mentioned a legacy sort of placethis is.
(08:49):
It's like slow to change and Ithink it's difficult those types
of settings of large, likewell-established sort of systems
or institutions are.
I think they're very hardspaces for innovators or
futurists to thrive in.
For sure.
And that was, you know, alittle bit of my experience.
(09:12):
Like you know I have.
I've learned, maybe after myforties I guess, and teenagers,
the patience, the power ofpatience, you know, and
sometimes people, people aren'tready yet.
Ideas need to ripen.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And I think I'm still waiting for that patience to
kick in.
So Well, wait, do you haveteenagers?
No, I have not yet.
I have a 10 year old and I havea six year old.
I did teach high school math,so I worked with teenagers for a
little while.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh, we have that in common.
I taught high school history,actually.
Oh, there you go, nice Longtime ago.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, I actually loved teenagers.
I thought they were fascinatingand wonderful, and both my
parents were high schoolteachers Also.
My dad taught math, my momtaught music, so that was always
sort of a thing.
Yeah, anyway, still working onthat, because I want to push and
, push and push as Cheryl knows,to not get my way, but like I'm
(10:11):
like if I see something thatneeds to be done and that I care
about and I'm passionate about,like yeah, I want to see change
and I'm going to keep pushingfor it, and to my own detriment
sometimes but yeah, that's,that's definitely something we
have in common, you know, andthat that was one of the things
like when I was a high schoolhistory teacher.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Again, you know, you're just like, oh, why do we
still do it this way?
This makes no sense or that wayor this way.
And you know you're in a schooldistrict, right, and they have
liability and they have risk andyou know the it's just not the
place where you know, um, you'renot going to have an Elon Musk
in the K to 12 system, you know.
(10:54):
So I didn't laugh.
I spent a nice decade, um, onand off, like with maternity
leaves and whatnot in theschools and it was an amazing
experience.
I learned a lot about differentleadership styles, different
principles.
Principles really make or breakschools.
So I learned a lot aboutleadership and those in that
(11:17):
decade.
But when people ask me like, oh, do you ever?
Do you miss teaching?
No, it is so hard.
I have so much respect,especially post pandemic, for
every teacher.
It's it's just a extremelyemotionally taxing, important
role, you know, in our yeah.
(11:38):
So, yeah, I have a lot ofadmiration, but I don't miss it.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah, yeah, I have to say I have a a few friends that
are, who are teachers, and theyreally went through it during
the pandemic and especiallyteaching, you know, where maybe
not all the resources werereadily available so they had to
improvise.
And then even you know, evenknowing that not all, you know,
that all kids learn differentlyand you know, even knowing that
(12:05):
not all you know, that all kidslearn differently.
So you know, sometimes you knowthis, like we're looking at
each other in Zooms worked forsome kids and others they kind
of spaced out or you know, youknow, found other things to work
at or their computers weren'tworking and everything like that
.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, and you know, girls are increasingly.
You know there's so much morepressure to look I mean to look
good on camera.
You know the filters,everything.
It's a completely differentworld than when, you know, I was
14 or any of us, Right.
And so adding that every singleday, like where a young, you
know person, insecure in theirfriend group or whatever even
(12:47):
secure in their friend group,has to look at themselves on
screen, that's really hard.
That's tough.
I don't like it.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
No, no, and I do this all day where I'm like, and
it's almost difficult not tolook and go like, oh, is that my
yep, my makeup is off.
Okay, I've rubbed all my makeupoff.
This is this is terrific, thisis a good look.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
It's helpful for you, though, because then you can
monitor your face, or facialexpressions, at least right,
cheryl oh thank goodness, yeah,because honestly, this face
tells a whole story.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
There's a whole story that's untold when I use my
voice, but my face will tell youa thousand stories, and some of
them maybe I need to tone themdown a little bit.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So yes, yes, I mean, hasn't every accomplished woman
been told to turn it, tone itdown, though I mean?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
oh, sure, sure, sure.
I just know with my face likethere have been times where
eileen's had to shut her cameraoff because my face look at you
yeah, it's literally like whatis what just happened here?
Did something happen?
What?
How do we go this far off topiclike it was?
You know, I always had thisface and people were like cheryl
, do you have something to say?
No, because I don't realize I'mdoing it.
(14:07):
And now that I have the Zoomcamera, I'm like, oh, that's the
OK, I got it.
I got it.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Right, right and besides, your eyebrows are
telling the whole story anyway.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
So they are.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, yes, there's that, yes, and you're right,
though, that's the that's sayingright, it's the.
Well-behaved women rarely makehistory.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
That's right.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, no,couldn't be, couldn't be more
true, shorter fuses for the kindof bias that maybe we just swim
in and forget about.
Until we don't forget about it,until it's too evident, and I
think more and more.
You know, people are just, aswe've seen with this like great
(14:59):
realization.
People like to say, oh, is thegreat resignation.
I think it was a greatrealization that happened, that
people are really capable ofseeing things more clearly and
then acting on it, instead ofsticking around and being
miserable.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Mm.
Hmm, yes, definitely, it wasdefinitely tough, you know.
I also think that there weresome companies that definitely
did it right in terms of youknow, and I will say, I think I
think the company for for whom Iwork did it right Like they
made sure everybody was takencare of everything like that.
I've seen some I think it wasWebMD yeah who's yeah?
(15:41):
Oh, that was awkward.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So if you people can't see my face, but it was
not a good look.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Yeah, WebMD kind of had this whole video about
return to work and it was wow,you know, and there's nothing
more that can fuel moreaggravation than you know being
tone deaf about meeting peoplewhere they are and I'm sure you,
(16:09):
you, you see that a lot and inin your role.
So, as a collaboration architectwhich I love, that title I I
actually want to look into that.
Um, you know you want to seepeople collaborating and
sometimes they're just not there.
Would you say, how do I putthis?
(16:34):
What would you say is yourmethod to your?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
madness of getting people to collaborate.
Well, I actually have.
I have to give some creditwhere credit is due.
So I was after, after I waslaid off from city government
during the pandemic, I lifted upa project called Future Works
Alliance, which was really thefirst year of my consulting
business.
I just was having a littleinertia with my career identity
(16:58):
between public servant and, youknow, private sector consultant.
I wasn't really ready to dropthe identity of public servant
because really my whole life hadbeen motivated by, you know,
kind of like the public good,the common good, you know,
positive change, positivesystemic changes, teaching,
(17:20):
right.
And that project landed in thepaper a few times because it was
calling for more attention tothe disruptions that were going
to happen to certain populationsin the labor market due to
automation and AI.
And this was in 20,.
This was way before ChatGPT,you know a few years, not way
(17:41):
before a few years.
So it landed in the paper.
And Iupi Tea, you know a fewyears, not way before a few
years.
So it landed in the paper and Iwas quoted, as you know,
calling on the region's leadersto collaborate around this
coming problem Right.
That it didn't have to be aproblem Like we could shape the
future as much as have it happento us Right, like technology is
(18:03):
not really slowing down at all.
And so the founder of thecompany who trains collaboration
architects reached out to meand said you would be perfect
for this, we wanna train you.
And they spent several yearsdistilling a methodology that it
(18:26):
basically encapsulates, andthere's a technology to support
the best practices ofcollaboration, and I mean.
The fact of the matter is,people are very uncomfortable
publicly disagreeing with oneanother, even in email.
You know we struggle to disagreewith one another, even in email
.
You know we struggle todisagree with one another, but
it's in that disagreement thatyou actually can do the work to
(18:50):
get to the place where no onewill resist the change right
that there's when there's enoughalignment and enough agreement
and enough clarity about thedirection that any group of
people are moving in.
That's when you can actuallycreate a lot of change.
The project can be successful.
(19:10):
You can reach your goals right.
So this methodology sort ofstrips away a lot of the
hierarchy or the ego and itinstead puts in place a ton of
listening, and I mean it'sthorough listening, because
(19:31):
another thing humans like to dois like we'd like to talk about
the things that we agree on,right, and that's wonderful, we
can all pat each other on theback, but when we do that, we're
not talking about the things weactually need to talk about.
We're not talking about theelephants in the room.
We're not digging into thereally difficult stuff that
makes everybody get quiet in theroom.
So a lot of the methodology isasynchronous, right, and it's
(19:58):
de-identified.
So you say what you think andthen everybody learns what
everybody else thinks, but theydon't know who said what.
And then they get to say howstrongly they agree or disagree
with everything else was saidand it's a whole multi-step
process that you know is builton hundreds of case studies of
which collaborations worked andwhich collaborations failed.
(20:21):
And the most interesting thingabout this, I was very skeptical
at first.
I'm like who is this personreaching out to me?
Because they read my name in apaper like this is kind of weird
, right.
It's like who are you?
I don't know.
So you know I did the Googling,had a few meetings, kicked the
tires, that kind of thing, andwhen I actually sat down and did
the course, it was incrediblyconsistent with what I call the
(20:43):
art of collaboration, which mywhole career had really
previously been the art ofcollaboration like coalition
building, understandingdifferent levers of power,
keeping in mind the with them.
Right, like what's in it for me?
Why am I at this collectivetable?
Why should I help you reach agoal right.
All of those things were theart of collaboration right, and
(21:08):
I had kind of mastered thatsuccessfully.
I mean, pre-k wouldn't havehappened without the art of
collaboration right.
And then along comes this course, that sort of validated
everything I had experienced,you know, for 10 or 15 years.
That sort of validatedeverything I had experienced,
you know, for 10 or 15 years.
So it was just one of thosemoments where it's like kind of
followed my gut a little bit,like I'm going to take this
(21:30):
course, you know, let's see whathappens with this.
And it's worked out pretty well.
And it's not the only thing Ido in my consulting service, my
consulting business, but it's,it's, it seems to be one of the
popular offerings.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It's interesting, so we're having this discussion
right now at work also, and it'swe were starting to talk about
this before we started recording, but there's this article out
on Wired, that's it's called.
It's the title the AI fueledfuture of work needs humans, uh,
more than ever.
Right, and so conceptuallyright.
(22:08):
Like these things likecollaboration, um, this people
to people collaboration andempathy and problem solving,
like active listening, all ofthose things are going to be the
most essential skills forhumans to have in an AI world.
(22:29):
Right, and I just I think thatthat's so profound Our humanness
is going to be the mostimportant thing for us to be
able to do and use and, um,going forward, and I just like
what you're saying like those,those things are so key into
this, this world of AI.
(22:49):
I mean, we say you know thefuture of AI, we're in the
future, it exists, it's here,it's here.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, right, it's, we are, we are on.
Um, I feel like we're buckledin to a roller coaster that
we're not quite aware of howfast it's going to go or how how
tall the loop, the loops, aregoing to be.
You know, my, I have threechildren and well, they're not
children, they're twenty seven,twenty three and twenty, and you
(23:18):
know I'm worried that they arethis.
That's the generation I thinkthat's going to live through the
churn.
You know, I think everything,everything's going to be a
little volatile and somewhatchaotic for a while.
Um, I mean, you can just lookno further than what technology
has done to politics.
(23:39):
I mean, social media alone hascompletely disrupted the skill
set that a candidate needs onthe campaign trail versus the
skill set that you need togovern well and manage, like
large bureaucracies and prettymuch 90% overlapping, with
(24:03):
social media and the age ofmisinformation and the
fragmentation of journalism andmedia, the skill sets of
candidates.
You know to win an election,you know that team and that
candidate needs entirelydifferent skill sets than what
it takes to govern effectively.
(24:23):
And so we haven't caught up.
Right, we haven't caught up andwe you have.
It's just disturbing what'shappening, to say the least.
So a lot of institutions andsystems are going to have
similar disruptions and it'sgoing to take a minute, like
meaning a gen.
(24:44):
I think it'll take a generationfor our institutions to to
reset and adjust, and I couldn'tagree more that.
You know, human it's only.
There's a great book, um, onlyhumans need apply.
It's probably on myself, I.
I read it, I don't know, Idon't know like four or five
(25:04):
years ago, but yeah, that thatought.
That um researcher and authorsaid essentially the same thing
that you know that the art, this, the things that make us
uniquely human, are going to bethe most important things.
But I also, I would also add tothat that you have to
understand human nature too, andthat's something that you know,
you have you can't do andthat's something that you know
(25:25):
you ha, you can't do.
I think that's something that'skind of harming the kids that
are in college now is like thatisolation that they had in high
school.
You know they, they lost out onsome key developmental years
and I, and then maybe the otherthat's just from my experience,
anecdotally, there was probablyother kids that you know are
missing something that theynormally would have gotten, um,
(25:48):
if not for the pandemic, butunderstanding human nature.
Because you, we're not going tobe able to understand the
impacts of technology unless wereally think about how are
humans going to receive orembrace or reject different
iterations of technology?
We don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, absolutely, and well, I mean gosh, that takes
me down a whole other path.
But just the impact thattechnology has on humans, right,
the way that we see we weretalking about social media and
all those different things inthe filters and like what does
that do to someone's psyche andmental health, and all of those
(26:26):
pieces as well.
And how do you, how do yousupport humans who are also
using this technology, that it'schanging them, right, we're,
we're, we're.
There's a, there's certainly anecosystem of us together in
this and it's changing us justas much as we're changing it,
and I just I think that that'sthat's also sort of a
(26:48):
fascinating piece.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Definitely, like even just cervical vertebrae.
You know, people are gettinglike our bodies are getting
changed.
From looking at the phones allthe time, it's like we're, we
are so in it and it's, it's,it's uh.
There's people who are veryself-aware about what's
happening and then there'sothers who are just kind of
(27:10):
going along with the technologythat's around them, right, like
you're, you're in this pool andyou're swimming in it, and so
it's.
It's very hard to, you know,kind of discern, like, how do
you adapt and also remainself-aware about the potential
negative, unintendedconsequences.
(27:31):
You know, it's really it's.
It's a really challenging time,I think.
And you know, if you've evergone on a new I don't know if
any of you have removed appsfrom your phone, but it's pretty
freeing.
I worked for Service EmployeeInternational Union, seiu,
(27:52):
during the Occupy movement and Idon't know if you know, but
SEIU organizes low-wage workersaround the world and tries to
ensure that they have betterwages and benefits, even though
they're in sectors thattraditionally pay a little lower
.
So Occupy was right up theiralley, you know, with the focus
on income inequality but the Iforget where I was going with
(28:18):
this.
But the Occupy movement really,you know, know, made me so
plugged in to twitter and soplugged in to, I was like a
little um too attached to myphone and at some point, because
there was an intensity aboutthat movement it was very short
(28:40):
but it was very intense.
Like every city that had anOccupy was just like it kind of
took over your life for a shorttime and cell phones were a huge
part of that.
Right, like organizing themarches and organizing the
protests in bank lobbies andstaying connected to one another
as you move through and it wasjust like super intense.
(29:02):
And after that movement settleddown, my New Year's resolution
that year was like to take thoseapps off my phone.
So I took Facebook off my phoneand plus, facebook Messenger
had like terrible privacy rulestoo, like there was.
I just had much more heightenedawareness around privacy
(29:24):
because weird things werehappening to certain people,
certain protesters electronicswere having weird things happen
to them.
But anyway, the wholesurveillance thing, it was like
a little spooky.
I'm not in that mindset anymore, but but I took that fee.
I took the Facebook off my phone.
It was so freeing, you know,and this was again 2012, right,
(29:48):
so every year I try to cut backon, you know, the things that
notify me, so just to protect mytime, and I think that it's
impossible to really tap intoyour purpose and achieve.
You know, it takes a certainamount of quiet in your life and
(30:09):
quiet in your day to really bein touch with purpose, or
intuition if you will.
And so all those distractionsreally pull at that and I think
they undermine your time firstand foremost, but worse than
(30:29):
that, the notifications and thedistractions undermine your
ability to tap purpose.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it definitely grabsattention.
I know that, you know.
For a while I was on theDoomscroll struggle bus, like
that was you know.
For a while I was on the doomscroll struggle bus, like that
was you know, even if I wastrying to watch a film, I would
be, you know, I would looksomething up and then it would
just trigger something else andI would just keep going.
I think it does.
It's almost like a detriment toyour attention span, to you
(31:02):
know, from the perspective ofyou really need to focus on this
.
This is important.
You're like what's on there,what's happening, and I don't
know like, do you're, like yousaid, you have 20 somethings now
what's the advice that you giveto them to help them, kind of
stay focused?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
help them kind of stay focused.
They've actually, interestingly, um, they've really limited
their own social media.
So my, except for my youngestmy youngest is like an Instagram
and Tik TOK junkie, but myolder two really weren't big
social.
They they kind of were leery ofit and didn't really.
You know they're more spectators, they don't, they don't let it
(31:47):
distract them all that much.
But the advice is the advice Ijust shared, you know, to just
be aware that you're, and it'sit's hard for 20 somethings to
hear that that time is your mostprecious resource and you know,
because they have it, they haveit to squander.
I guess when you know I thinkit was when my oldest turned 10,
(32:10):
I was just completelyastonished that a decade had
passed and it, just, it, just.
I remember just being reallyfreaked out that a decade had
just passed, you know, in theblip, and that was like the
beginning of my kind of freakishattention to hours in the day
and also my willingness to likesleep less and just kind of be a
(32:34):
weirdo about like every who didI give time to, why did I spend
time on things?
And, of course, like we allfritter hours away.
You know, no one is innocentfrom that, but just like the
acute awareness came fromwatching them, you know, years
(32:55):
just spin by.
So I feel like no mom can sayanything, that that really
individuals have to learn it ontheir own.
You know what?
What do they want to spendtheir time doing, I mean, and
that is really life like.
And I think that the biggestthing that I talk to them about
(33:15):
is like I do believe they werehere for like you're here for a
reason, I'm your mom for areason, you think I'm the
biggest pain in the ass you'veever met, but you picked me like
we're stuck here, we're in thislife, you know and you know, so
I just I just constantly talkabout purpose and intuition and
(33:40):
it's you know they roll theireyes and but they'll get it
someday.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
you know they roll their eyes and but they'll get
it someday.
Oh, and we are, I just so.
My son, just like I said he, hejust turned 10 in November.
So I felt that very deeply withthe decade.
I was like, oh shit, what how?
Speaker 1 (33:58):
how does that make sense at all?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Double digits.
Yeah, it was intense and for meand he didn't he's like, well,
I'm older, it's great.
But actually recently had aconversation with him also where
he what did he say?
He was something like I don'tever want a boss and like I want
to do what I want to do withthis life, cause I only get to
(34:21):
live this one life, and I waslike, yes, you've nailed it,
good for you.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yoga, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Right, and so that's the part of it and I and Cheryl
and I have talked about thisbefore too and for me, like I go
through these phases of like,consuming and creating, and
there are just the times whereI'm like, oh my, I feel like I'm
just seeing everyone else'sstuff.
I want to put something outinto the world.
I'm like, oh my, I feel likeI'm just seeing everyone else's
stuff.
I want to put something outinto the world.
I like there is something thatI am feeling the need to cause.
(34:52):
It's just I feel full of all ofthe stuff that I've just, you
know, whether it's the socialmedia or even reading sometimes
where I'm like I've, I've, I'vetaken in so much.
It's time for me to now putsomething out into the world,
whatever that may be.
And and I don't know, I justlike I have to tap into my own
body for getting that, thatknowing and then allowing the
(35:15):
space to create whatever it is.
That's kind of calling to menext.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, that's awesome, I feel like writing.
So I constantly, when I was, um, I don't know, grade school,
high school I learned about theflow state playing basketball.
I played basketball day in andday out.
Um and it, it, it was just, Ijust loved the game and it ended
(35:42):
up paying for college and thatwas wonderful and everything.
But that learning about thatflow state at such a young age
you're like you're, you'reconstantly looking for like
nothing is good enough unlessyou're tapping the flow state,
you know.
And so the adult version wassort of writing.
(36:02):
You know, writing gave me theflow state as an adult that
basketball gave writing.
You know, writing gave me theflow state as an adult that
basketball gave me.
You know, as a teenager andyoung, uh, like a college, uh,
it kind of wore off in college.
Honestly, the, the game meantsomething different for me then.
It was more like, uh felt likethe army in college, like after,
(36:24):
you know, you work so hard toget the scholarship and then
you're like, oh my God, reallythis and so.
But writing gives me that flowstate and and you don't even
have to publish it, you know, itdoesn't even have to be for
other people's benefit, it's,it's really just for for clarity
(36:46):
.
It it really forces yourthoughts um to crystallize,
because you, you know that'sthat's what to me that's the
benefit of writing is that it'sselfishly, puts me in the flow
state but, you know, reallyhelps ideas develop much, much
(37:07):
more fully.
Do you journal?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Because that's certainly something that helps
me yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, I do.
I used to, you know, when mykids were really little I was
like, oh my God, so many funnythings happen every day and I'm
like blurry eyed at the end.
You know, so I do.
I have some journals from whenthey were little and then put it
down for a while but thenpicked it up again, just like a
basic, you know, gratitudejournal.
You know, just my father passedaway last year so I just felt
(37:36):
like, you know, instead of beingsad.
Of course you can't get rid ofall the sad, of course you can't
get rid of all the sad, but abasic gratitude journal is
really has done pretty goodwonders since his passing.
You know, it just helpedcapture some memories and helped
get things to the present.
(37:57):
And you know, just think about,like, all the good things that
are still here.
But then you say like, oh well,he's missing all that.
You know it's a little bit ofcatch 22, but no, it's, it's
been really um, a good tool forthat and it's, it's uh, it's
different than professionalwriting.
Obviously, it's more of like,uh, like an uh centering
(38:22):
practice, you know.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
So I'm just going to jump in Cheryl.
So Cheryl has a book that shepublished actually, um, that was
around grief and silence, talkabout it, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Yeah.
So my mom passed away back inApril of 2022 from pancreatic
cancer and I admittedly didn'thandle it well, and what I found
was that it was very soothingto start writing, uh poems now.
I originally started writingthe poems as part of a contest
and then found out the contestwas a scam, so ended that really
(38:55):
quickly, was out of 50 bucks,totally fine, but what it did
was it opened up a differentmeans for me to express myself,
express, express feelings, and,as a result of that, I wrote
around I don't know 110 poems,something like that.
They came together in a book andit's called my Stay with the
(39:16):
Sisters and it's the sisters aregrief and gratitude and they
invite you into their housewhere you can explore different
rooms where different poems arethat express different emotions,
like there's a rage room,there's a kitchen for nostalgia,
there's a garden where youlearn to kind of grow from the
(39:36):
grief and the loss, and then atthe end there's always a key
that says whenever you need tocome back, you can come back to
it.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
That says whenever you need to come back you can
come back to it.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
So I find the whole I love that you're a writer and I
love that you talk about thingslike future proofing and things
like that.
I'm also very encouraged tohear that you journal, because I
do think that there's animportant element to that as
well, and I think that you know,sometimes I don't know if it's
so Flow State.
Thank you for that information.
Sometimes I don't know if it'sso flow state.
Thank you for that information,because I don't know if it was
flow state.
But for me I find it like if Iget something in my head, I have
(40:12):
to write it down.
And my notes app is like myfavorite thing because I'll just
jot that down and thateventually it'll make its way
into Word.
So yeah, that's very cool.
That's very cool that you usethe journaling to kind of get it
to get it out.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
That's very cool.
That's very cool that you usethe journaling to kind of get it
, to get it out, and that timeis short and that's the, that's
the overall thing that getsburgled from us when, when
things like that God, that wasfast and sudden, so I know that
that was really hard.
My dad had mesothelioma and hehad a little bit of time where
we knew his life wasn't going tobe as long as we thought it
(41:00):
would be, but it wasn't weeks ormonths, it was.
So, yeah, thanks, and, and it'sreally ironic, you know,
griefing your book, it's great,the sister's grief and gratitude
, you know, and that's kind ofwhat, what brought me to the
journaling, to the flip side ofthe coin there.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
It's that, you know, I learned a lot about things
like anticipatory grief and thencomplex grief, and, uh, it's
for me.
I was hoping that with the book, we could, you know, make a
connection to others and letthem know that they're not alone
.
And uh, yeah, so it's.
It's the little book that could.
And uh, uh, you know, the greatirony is that I never would
(41:46):
have written it, probably if mymom hadn't passed and that was
tough, but I do.
She was always happy to readwhatever I wrote, and some of my
stuff was downright goofy, so,but this was just a way to just
kind of honor her as well.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
So um yeah I feel like I have a book in me, but I
I can't decide if it's, if itwould be personal or
professional.
I'm still kind of, you know,there's a lot of things written
down in a lot of differentplaces and, uh, you know, again,
like the time, the justfiguring out, um, but I
(42:24):
definitely feel like that's apart of the future for me.
It's like there, I feel likeI'm a book in me and now that
I've said it, I probably jinxedmyself no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Do it, even if you're putting it out to the universe.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
That's right.
That's right.
And you know what?
Every first draft is thecrappiest thing you'll ever
write oh, I know that you knowwhat.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Every first draft is the crappiest thing you'll ever
write.
Oh, I know that you know what.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
I mean, Like that's you know, so you just kind of
have to put it out there and seewhat happens and where it takes
you, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah, I think it's going to be built slowly, like
on a website or LinkedIn postsor whatever.
Pull a thread together.
Pull a thread together, I meaneven the future proofing columns
, like after um, uh, they wereall like 20, 20, 21, 20, a
little bit in 22.
And then, so you know, all of asudden you look back and there
(43:22):
I had, like you know, 15 or 16and that particular publication
that was posting them.
They really went for long form.
So I mean there's, there'sdefinitely enough there for you
know that I have it in me like Ican write the volume right it's
just organizing it in a, in away that matters, that anybody
would read Right.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, cheryl and I have been talking about creating
a book from just even thesepodcasts episodes that we've had
, and finding themes andbringing out some of that stuff.
And so then so I, as I said, Ihave my math background, so the
data nerd part of me is likeokay, we can make a table and we
can look in Excel spreadsheetand then we'll put in themes
from the different episodes.
(44:03):
So I guarantee you've gotsomething.
I guarantee that there issomething there that can be
shared with the world and I'llread it.
You just let me know.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yes, I think one of the interesting things about the
world that we live in and theworld that our kids are going to
grow up and thrive in hopefullythrive is that you know the
everyone talks about lifelonglearning and the mindset of
continuous, continuous learning,continuous acquisition of
skills, like always, sort oflike I don't.
(44:40):
I don't know if that, if it'sreally sunk in to the majority
of people you know in theworkforce or even people
generally, this whole lifelonglearning thing.
It's a lot easier said thandone.
But the flip side of that isthat you are going to shift
identity quite a bit and that isreally hard for humans to do
(45:02):
and I speak from personalexperience, right, really hard
for humans to do and I speakfrom personal experience, right,
that you know.
Just like that transition froma college athlete to not college
athlete.
Well, what are you now?
Right, from not a mom to a mom,from a teacher to like, um, you
know, activists, right, likeall these different shifts.
(45:24):
That, I think, is I'm a littleatypical for Gen X, but it's
very typical, I think, formillennial and younger people in
the workforce, like thesedifferent jobs, different
industries, like moving around,and it's that like, where does
that sense of self come from?
(45:46):
If you are someone who definesyourself by how you make a
living or you know, where doesthat confidence or courage come
from to just shift identitiesand keep changing?
You know your sense of self.
I think it.
I think that's a skill set ourschools probably aren't teaching
(46:08):
right now.
Right Like how to shape, shiftwithout having you know anxiety
or crisis.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
I would pose to that that maybe it's not an identity
shift, it's an identitycentering and coming, coming to
a more close version of who youunderstand yourself to be, cause
I mean, look, in our 20s Ididn't know who I was, I not
really like I was figuring itout, right?
(46:40):
Um, and I think technology is apiece of some of that right.
Where there is access toknowledge, there is access to,
um, new ways of knowing andexploring some of those things.
And, um, you know, my kids areactually in Montessori school
because I I wanted them to learnhow to learn and for me, that
(47:03):
was one of the most importantskills, like, if you're told you
have to meet these standardsand do this, like this is where
you're at every single day andblah, blah, blah, like I.
Just for me, the Montessorimethod was just so wonderful
because it is that it's anexploration, it's a lifelong
exploration of learning and tohave access to that and to at
(47:27):
least this is for me.
I'm a technical, I'm an oldermillennial, but it's been more
of a.
I don't know what exactly isright for me, but I'm figuring
that out and I'm getting closerto that as I explore this life
and these.
What is a career and what doesthat look like?
For me, that it's notnecessarily a shifting of who I
(47:48):
am.
It's a better understanding ofwhat I can do in this world
based on what I've known,learned and experienced.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Yeah, no love that.
That's great, I think too.
It's like I think the I meanthe hardest thing obviously is
just failing, and even harderthan that is like failing in
public, right, like I've donethat a few times and that was
super hard to go through, but itwas also led to some of the
(48:17):
best transformations, like someof the richest transformations
for, you know, reaching the nextlevel, right, it really was
hard to be in it.
You know some of the shiftslike just, you know, can't even.
You know, and when you start abusiness, people say like, well,
(48:41):
you know you're going to fallon your face a few times, like,
and that that was like thegreatest thing about starting a
business not falling on my face,but the greatest thing about it
was getting comfortable being abeginner again.
You know, you reach, like I wasat a certain level in my career
as, like expert advocate, andthen you know, expert advocate,
(49:08):
and then you know, went intogovernment, created, you know,
did, did really good things ingovernment, like work on
understanding the systems, likeworking in cross-collaborative
ways, like did really goodthings and then laid off and
it's like, okay, I've neverstarted a business before, but I
knew it was now or never.
Yeah Right, started business.
What I underestimated was justthe, the challenges involved of
(49:31):
being a beginner in your in yourearly fifties.
Right, you're, you're.
That's not comfortable, butthat that discomfort, um, was so
good.
Climbing those mountains ofdiscomfort and climbing those
mountains of being a beginneragain and working through that
(49:56):
mental work of it was invaluable.
I guess it was a combination ofthe pandemic and then that
experience of being a beginneragain.
It really forced me to detach,like, my value and contributions
professionally from the incomethat I was able to earn in the
(50:17):
early years.
Right, it's like I get todecide my value, you know, and
it's okay if I'm not earning.
I just started a business.
So even though everyone tellsyou you're not going to make you
know the same, it's going totake you a few years to get back
to your income level.
Like you need to mentallyprepare for that.
Blah, blah, blah.
(50:38):
Um, I didn't believe them andthen I was frustrated by that
and then I extracted.
I got so many good, um,transformative lessons from that
that I that I I'm carryingthrough now, even even though
I'm earning.
I earn more in my business nowthat I did, you know, in in a
(51:01):
payroll position.
But those early years were darkLike they.
They were talk about struggle,boss right.
Being a beginner, you know,living in this space where we
all attach you know our earningsand our value are equated.
It's not the case, you know.
Ask any mom right Like howabout that unpaid labor Right?
(51:23):
So that that was, but that wasreally um, those were, those
were huge lessons and I I'mreally glad that I pushed
through the, the dark days, thestruggle plus days.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Sure, yeah, I, um, I want it.
We're already, I mean, we'realready over time, so we'll just
want to be conscientious ofyour time.
Also, I uh, back in 2020, I Iwrote my own eulogy, which is
why so many things have changedfor me.
But I also went on and, um, Ialso wanted an exploration of
(51:59):
defining success, right, like,what the hell does success
actually mean to me?
Not what I thought it was, ornot what I've heard it was, or
you know what are, whatever.
And so, for me, I looked at allthe different dimensions of
what success can really mean forme and, right, like, impact is
one of the things that I thatmatters for me.
And you know, there's, there'sfinancial there's.
(52:23):
You know, there's all differentways of looking at success, and
I think that that it soundslike you've also had an
exploration of that, doing thiswork too, and kind of going
through that.
That it's like, if successisn't just the money, right,
there's so much more to it thanthat.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yeah, actually that was.
It's really interesting you saythat because money, if I'm
honest, money was never really adriver for me.
I never really.
I was a teacher, you know and Ialways cared much more about
impact and I just wanted to be,you know, compensated fairly and
and have a respectablecompensation.
I didn't want anybody to takeadvantage or whatnot, but that
(53:04):
was never my main driver to takeadvantage or whatnot, but that
was never my main driver.
Um, I always went.
Every time I had to think about, like, what I was going to do
next, I would honestly lookaround and say what
organizations do I admire, whatcompanies, what leaders do I
want to work with, and I wouldseek roles with those people.
And it's worked out like reallywell and led to high impact
(53:29):
results and not shabbycompensation either.
Right, but it's always been.
It was always an afterthoughtfor me and that was one of the
biggest problems that I hadstepping out into private
consulting, because it can't bean afterthought when you're in
business for yourself, like youcan't just focus aboutthought
when you're in business foryourself Like
you can't just focus about theimpact, you have to.
(53:49):
So that was.
That was a lot of growing painstoo, like what, what are your
rates?
What, what's a faircompensation?
How is this going to be viablefor me?
Right, and so I wanted to do,and that that was.
You know, when you, when youwork for city government, and
someone calls you and says, hey,can you help me with this?
I, you know, when you, when youwork for city government, and
(54:09):
someone calls you and says, hey,can you help me with this?
I, you know this, that theother thing, the public servant,
um, culture, and my approachwas absolutely, let me take an
hour or two and help you outwith that.
Right, I had to consciouslyundo that and then get to
reality, where it was like, okay, I'll have a sure, we can have
(54:31):
coffee.
Okay, you can't have threecoffees.
Hey, can I pick your brain?
No, you know.
So, like, figuring out like, howto adjust that, like, wow, this
could lead to, even though Iknew like it could lead to high
impact results or whatever, Istill had to change the, the way
(54:56):
I thought about theconversations I have, the, the
pick your brain stuff that yougive away.
You know, I think, too, likewomen are acculturated to be
accommodating and, like you know, yes, I can help you with that,
and but no, no, so I had tohave.
I had to get some pro tips fromactually, one client of mine,
(55:19):
uh, from last year, is anabsolute pro at this.
He has he's total toolkit, youknow know, to address this
problem and he taught me how tohandle that problem and it's
been great, you know, and and it.
But thinking, you know, thatwhole shift was really tough
(55:39):
because it's I was always morefocused on impact than I was on
money, and so it was like yougot to figure out the balance,
and that works when you're inbusiness for yourself, you know.
Speaker 2 (55:51):
Definitely.
I just want to keep talking toyou forever, but you know that's
wonderful.
However, we should probably wrapthings up here.
I'm going to, you know we kindof wrap things up here.
I'm going to, you know, we kindof.
(56:12):
I think we may have touched onit a little bit with the book,
but I have sort of a lastquestion that we talked through
and it's the this is happening.
So this podcast happened aftera 10 pm.
Text to Cheryl where I saidCheryl, we need to make a
podcast together and this ishappening Right.
Text to Cheryl where I saidCheryl, we need to make a
podcast together and this ishappening Right.
We're doing it and here we areRight.
(56:35):
I mean, it's a good time to youknow all the things and pieces
to come together and stuff likethat.
But for me it was somethingthat I was just like.
I just know that this needs toexist in the world and I feel
this very deeply in my heart andof the trillion ideas that go
through my brain in the day, Iknow this one's going to exist
in the world and I just feelthat happening.
(56:57):
Do you have anything on yourheart that you can foresee,
whether it's for your business,personal life?
You know, I know you talkedabout the book and that's
something that you know you kindof thinking of, but is there
anything that's for you feelinglike this is happening that you
want to share?
Speaker 1 (57:19):
Well, that second part that you want to share,
right, that's the part thattakes a lot of courage to like
no you're being recorded andyou're going to put that out
there.
I think that I've been a veryeffective change maker and I
think that there's a toolkit forthat.
I think that there's a playbookfor that, and that's what I
(57:43):
want to put in the world, andthat's what I want to put in the
world.
I think that the world needs asmany people trying to do good in
it, right, to make the changesthat we need, but there's a lot
of people that don't know how todo that well, frustrated, and
(58:04):
they leave movements or theybail on coalitions or they give
up on systems Right.
And I feel like the thing that Ineed to put into the world is
this is how you do this.
These are the questions you askyourself.
This is how you become like agreat change maker, and it would
(58:24):
just be all the lessons Ilearned the hard way, and it
would be a combination of myfailures and successes put out
into the world for the benefitof other you know, do-gooders or
people who want to.
You know, it's really the kindof energy that we need to create
, like the country and the worldthat we need and the cities
(58:46):
that we need is massive, andthat's the kind of that's the
thing that might be my book.
It might not be my book, Idon't know, but that's the thing
I feel like needs to happen and, um, you know that I feel like
I can help with that.
Speaker 3 (59:04):
That's fantastic.
Thank you, I'll be one of thefirst in line for that.
That would be amazing.
That would be so amazing.
And how do people get incontact with you?
Speaker 1 (59:16):
The best way.
Thanks for asking that.
This has been an awesomeconversation.
I'm glad you two started yourpodcast because you both have
really good voices, like justlike the literal voice that you
have, but also your perspectives, like both voice.
You can find me on LinkedIn isthe best way I do.
(59:39):
I own my domain name, but it'snot really there yet, so but I
did get it but right now it'sjust, it's just LinkedIn so
Great.
Speaker 3 (59:50):
That's great, and we'll make sure we share that on
our socials as well, so thatpeople can get in touch with you
.
Thank you.
On behalf of Eileen and myself,I just want to say thank you so
much, anne, for your time.
And this concludes our episodeof you Only Go Once.
This is also the eve of theInternational Day of Women, so
(01:00:15):
I'm so thrilled that we spenttime with an amazing woman
tonight.
So thank you, anne, and foreverybody out there, thanks for
listening and we'll talk to youlater.
Bye.
Hi, I'm Anne Gemmel and I hope when you look back on
your life you know you foundthe courage to begin again,
because you only go once.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good evening listeners.
You are back with us foranother episode of you Only Go
Once.
I am Aileen Grimes and I'm herewith my amazing, wonderful
friend and co-host, cherylCantafio, and we are so excited
tonight to introduce a guesthere on the you Only Go Once
(00:34):
podcast, where we explorestories around the limited time
we have on this earth to createa fully layered life.
Without any further ado, I amgoing to pass it to Cheryl to
introduce our guest for tonight.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Thanks, eileen.
Entrepreneur, collaborationarchitect and pragmatic futurist
Translator from future topresent, from idea to vision to
playbook.
Builder of deep and intentionalcollaboration across sectors
and systems.
Leader of Philadelphia's futureof Work Policy Response In 2016
(01:09):
, led the Equitable Design ofPHL Pre-K Program, which now
provides thousands of childrenwith a quality start to learning
and life.
In 2012, anne Gemmel played akey role leading the effort to
decriminalize marijuana inPhiladelphia.
She is a writer, speaker,advocacy and policy expert and
solopreneur.
Everyone, please welcome AnneGemmel.
(01:30):
Thank you, anne, for joining us.
We're thrilled to have you here.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Thank you, Cheryl and Eileen.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Absolutely.
Yeah, we're so excited there'sso many.
I mean, we were introduced toyou by one of our previous
guests and so excited to to kindof get to know you and I mean
that's for me, this is what'sreally fun is kind of learning
about guests before they come onand seeing all the different
things that they're engaged inin the world, and it gets my, my
(02:00):
brain going down a ton ofrabbit holes.
So I'm very excited to havesome conversations with you
tonight.
So, anne, tell us just a littlebit about you, know the work
that you're doing right now and,yeah, what's kind of lighting
you up in this moment?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Thank, you so much for having me again.
Good question, eileen.
So right now, in the moment, Iam in year four now no, still in
year three, almost in year fourof building my own business
doing consulting work and, overthe pandemic, like a lot of
(02:37):
other people, I had a careerdisruption and decided to become
trained as collaborationarchitect.
So little did I know there'sthis science of collaboration
and there's a certainmethodology for high level
strategic collaborations and Iwas also starting to come into
(02:58):
my own about my expertise andsuperpowers.
You know, when you sit down tostart a business you have to
think about what value can Icreate?
Who is going to pay me to dowhat I had to do, some
reflection about thechange-making that I had done
(03:18):
over the previous 25, 30 yearsor so and really distill that
into a business model.
When everyone said to it'll takeyou three years to figure this
out as a, you know, to figureout your business model and the
iteration, and it definitely hastaken at least that long.
But I think in this day and agethat's just a constant,
(03:39):
constant reevaluation andconstantly listening to clients
and listening to you know.
What do they see that is sovaluable and how to replicate
that.
So right now I'm super excitedabout the clients that I'm
serving.
They have a lot of things incommon.
They tend to be leaders oflarge institutions or large
(04:03):
departments or leaders ofgovernments.
Even so, it's super exciting tosit down with people at that
level and help them solveclearly defined problems.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, and it's.
It's so interesting because I,you know, as you're talking
about sort of that thing in thepandemic is sort of the impetus
for for some of this right.
You know, as we look atsupporting these organizations I
do consulting work also thebusiness world changed after
COVID.
So, whether you know, evenrelying on the skills that we
had in the past didn't evennecessarily, I mean, they
(04:40):
certainly apply, but there's newthings being learned all the
time, and so the evolution ofwhat your business can even be
now is fascinating and wonderful, and there's just so much room
for expansion and growth basedon what you can bring to the
table, and I found that reallyfun to explore and kind of build
(05:01):
towards what your interests are.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Right now I'm trying to movethe business from a space that
just involves me and my skillsand concrete services to a
client around a defined scope toreally distilling my expertise
and organizing it in a way thatfinds a niche market and, you
(05:25):
know, can generate, you know,passive income and reach a
market you know well beyond thenetwork of people I've actually
met or who have heard of me orknow what work I've done in the
past.
So the internet's a wonderfulthing like that.
Of course, there's drawbacks tothe internet.
It's been incredibly disruptiveto lots of our ways of doing
(05:47):
things, but one amazing thingthat it has done is just allowed
people with innovative ideasand expertise to reach so many
more people, whether it's tohelp them or to create value for
them or just to communicate.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
The communication piece is sokey in that right and there's so
many different avenues that youcan go to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
What drew you to government?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So it's kind of an accident actually.
It's a funny story.
I really was an advocate alittle bit of you know.
In advocacy you're asking thepowers that be to take action
and make a change right, whetherit's a law or redesign of a
(06:34):
program or even just theirtalking points.
Right, like change your talkingpoints, talk more about this
issue instead of that issue,talk more about this issue
instead of that issue.
And I was the PennsylvaniaSoutheast Pennsylvania field
director for an advocacycampaign called Pre-K for PA and
we successfully builtrelationships with the governor
(06:58):
in Pennsylvania, governor Wolf.
He invested, you know, over ahundred million dollars more in
early childhood education.
But when I looked atPhiladelphia and looked around
and saw how many three andfour-year-olds we have, we have
40,000 three and four-year-oldsin Philadelphia Even with the
governor adding more and morefunds, it would still have taken
(07:21):
25 years for every three andfour year old to access high
quality pre-K in Philadelphia atthe rate of, you know,
incremental increases in thebudget.
So I went to at that time to acouncil person who was thinking
about running for mayor and toldhim you know how important and
high impact pre-K quality pre-Kwould be.
(07:43):
He agreed he put it into hiscampaign.
Then when he won, you know, andbecame the mayor, he was like,
okay, I've been talking aboutpre-K, now who's going to, like,
lead the charge?
You, you've been talking aboutthis for years, like come on
into government and and do this.
So I really wasn't drawn togovernment.
I was sort of sucked into it asa you know like, hey, big mouth,
(08:07):
come on over here and get itdone now.
So that was, that was great itwas.
It was Mayor Kenney's.
You know I think it'll be theprimary, you know legacy of his,
and of course it wasn't just methere were.
You know there was, and ofcourse it wasn't just me there
was.
You know there was a wholecoalition of amazing advocates
(08:29):
and you know city council peoplethat voted for the soda tax and
it was quite a year of, um, youknow, really a bold thing like,
and it was.
It's a great experience.
So governments, governments uh,not, you know it's, it's like I
mentioned a legacy sort of placethis is.
(08:49):
It's like slow to change and Ithink it's difficult those types
of settings of large, likewell-established sort of systems
or institutions are.
I think they're very hardspaces for innovators or
futurists to thrive in.
For sure.
And that was, you know, alittle bit of my experience.
(09:12):
Like you know I have.
I've learned, maybe after myforties I guess, and teenagers,
the patience, the power ofpatience, you know, and
sometimes people, people aren'tready yet.
Ideas need to ripen.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And I think I'm still waiting for that patience to
kick in.
So Well, wait, do you haveteenagers?
No, I have not yet.
I have a 10 year old and I havea six year old.
I did teach high school math,so I worked with teenagers for a
little while.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh, we have that in common.
I taught high school history,actually.
Oh, there you go, nice Longtime ago.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, I actually loved teenagers.
I thought they were fascinatingand wonderful, and both my
parents were high schoolteachers Also.
My dad taught math, my momtaught music, so that was always
sort of a thing.
Yeah, anyway, still working onthat, because I want to push and
, push and push as Cheryl knows,to not get my way, but like I'm
(10:11):
like if I see something thatneeds to be done and that I care
about and I'm passionate about,like yeah, I want to see change
and I'm going to keep pushingfor it, and to my own detriment
sometimes but yeah, that's,that's definitely something we
have in common, you know, andthat that was one of the things
like when I was a high schoolhistory teacher.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Again, you know, you're just like, oh, why do we
still do it this way?
This makes no sense or that wayor this way.
And you know you're in a schooldistrict, right, and they have
liability and they have risk andyou know the it's just not the
place where you know, um, you'renot going to have an Elon Musk
in the K to 12 system, you know.
(10:54):
So I didn't laugh.
I spent a nice decade, um, onand off, like with maternity
leaves and whatnot in theschools and it was an amazing
experience.
I learned a lot about differentleadership styles, different
principles.
Principles really make or breakschools.
So I learned a lot aboutleadership and those in that
(11:17):
decade.
But when people ask me like, oh, do you ever?
Do you miss teaching?
No, it is so hard.
I have so much respect,especially post pandemic, for
every teacher.
It's it's just a extremelyemotionally taxing, important
role, you know, in our yeah.
(11:38):
So, yeah, I have a lot ofadmiration, but I don't miss it.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah, yeah, I have to say I have a a few friends that
are, who are teachers, and theyreally went through it during
the pandemic and especiallyteaching, you know, where maybe
not all the resources werereadily available so they had to
improvise.
And then even you know, evenknowing that not all, you know,
that all kids learn differentlyand you know, even knowing that
(12:05):
not all you know, that all kidslearn differently.
So you know, sometimes you knowthis, like we're looking at
each other in Zooms worked forsome kids and others they kind
of spaced out or you know, youknow, found other things to work
at or their computers weren'tworking and everything like that
.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, and you know, girls are increasingly.
You know there's so much morepressure to look I mean to look
good on camera.
You know the filters,everything.
It's a completely differentworld than when, you know, I was
14 or any of us, Right.
And so adding that every singleday, like where a young, you
know person, insecure in theirfriend group or whatever even
(12:47):
secure in their friend group,has to look at themselves on
screen, that's really hard.
That's tough.
I don't like it.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
No, no, and I do this all day where I'm like, and
it's almost difficult not tolook and go like, oh, is that my
yep, my makeup is off.
Okay, I've rubbed all my makeupoff.
This is this is terrific, thisis a good look.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
It's helpful for you, though, because then you can
monitor your face, or facialexpressions, at least right,
cheryl oh thank goodness, yeah,because honestly, this face
tells a whole story.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
There's a whole story that's untold when I use my
voice, but my face will tell youa thousand stories, and some of
them maybe I need to tone themdown a little bit.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So yes, yes, I mean, hasn't every accomplished woman
been told to turn it, tone itdown, though I mean?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
oh, sure, sure, sure.
I just know with my face likethere have been times where
eileen's had to shut her cameraoff because my face look at you
yeah, it's literally like whatis what just happened here?
Did something happen?
What?
How do we go this far off topiclike it was?
You know, I always had thisface and people were like cheryl
, do you have something to say?
No, because I don't realize I'mdoing it.
(14:07):
And now that I have the Zoomcamera, I'm like, oh, that's the
OK, I got it.
I got it.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Right, right and besides, your eyebrows are
telling the whole story anyway.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
So they are.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, yes, there's that, yes, and you're right,
though, that's the that's sayingright, it's the.
Well-behaved women rarely makehistory.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
That's right.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, no,couldn't be, couldn't be more
true, shorter fuses for the kindof bias that maybe we just swim
in and forget about.
Until we don't forget about it,until it's too evident, and I
think more and more.
You know, people are just, aswe've seen with this like great
(14:59):
realization.
People like to say, oh, is thegreat resignation.
I think it was a greatrealization that happened, that
people are really capable ofseeing things more clearly and
then acting on it, instead ofsticking around and being
miserable.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Mm.
Hmm, yes, definitely, it wasdefinitely tough, you know.
I also think that there weresome companies that definitely
did it right in terms of youknow, and I will say, I think I
think the company for for whom Iwork did it right Like they
made sure everybody was takencare of everything like that.
I've seen some I think it wasWebMD yeah who's yeah?
(15:41):
Oh, that was awkward.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
So if you people can't see my face, but it was
not a good look.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Yeah, WebMD kind of had this whole video about
return to work and it was wow,you know, and there's nothing
more that can fuel moreaggravation than you know being
tone deaf about meeting peoplewhere they are and I'm sure you,
(16:09):
you, you see that a lot and inin your role.
So, as a collaboration architectwhich I love, that title I I
actually want to look into that.
Um, you know you want to seepeople collaborating and
sometimes they're just not there.
Would you say, how do I putthis?
(16:34):
What would you say is yourmethod to your?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
madness of getting people to collaborate.
Well, I actually have.
I have to give some creditwhere credit is due.
So I was after, after I waslaid off from city government
during the pandemic, I lifted upa project called Future Works
Alliance, which was really thefirst year of my consulting
business.
I just was having a littleinertia with my career identity
(16:58):
between public servant and, youknow, private sector consultant.
I wasn't really ready to dropthe identity of public servant
because really my whole life hadbeen motivated by, you know,
kind of like the public good,the common good, you know,
positive change, positivesystemic changes, teaching,
(17:20):
right.
And that project landed in thepaper a few times because it was
calling for more attention tothe disruptions that were going
to happen to certain populationsin the labor market due to
automation and AI.
And this was in 20,.
This was way before ChatGPT,you know a few years, not way
(17:41):
before a few years.
So it landed in the paper.
And Iupi Tea, you know a fewyears, not way before a few
years.
So it landed in the paper and Iwas quoted, as you know,
calling on the region's leadersto collaborate around this
coming problem Right.
That it didn't have to be aproblem Like we could shape the
future as much as have it happento us Right, like technology is
(18:03):
not really slowing down at all.
And so the founder of thecompany who trains collaboration
architects reached out to meand said you would be perfect
for this, we wanna train you.
And they spent several yearsdistilling a methodology that it
(18:26):
basically encapsulates, andthere's a technology to support
the best practices ofcollaboration, and I mean.
The fact of the matter is,people are very uncomfortable
publicly disagreeing with oneanother, even in email.
You know we struggle to disagreewith one another, even in email
.
You know we struggle todisagree with one another, but
it's in that disagreement thatyou actually can do the work to
(18:50):
get to the place where no onewill resist the change right
that there's when there's enoughalignment and enough agreement
and enough clarity about thedirection that any group of
people are moving in.
That's when you can actuallycreate a lot of change.
The project can be successful.
(19:10):
You can reach your goals right.
So this methodology sort ofstrips away a lot of the
hierarchy or the ego and itinstead puts in place a ton of
listening, and I mean it'sthorough listening, because
(19:31):
another thing humans like to dois like we'd like to talk about
the things that we agree on,right, and that's wonderful, we
can all pat each other on theback, but when we do that, we're
not talking about the things weactually need to talk about.
We're not talking about theelephants in the room.
We're not digging into thereally difficult stuff that
makes everybody get quiet in theroom.
So a lot of the methodology isasynchronous, right, and it's
(19:58):
de-identified.
So you say what you think andthen everybody learns what
everybody else thinks, but theydon't know who said what.
And then they get to say howstrongly they agree or disagree
with everything else was saidand it's a whole multi-step
process that you know is builton hundreds of case studies of
which collaborations worked andwhich collaborations failed.
(20:21):
And the most interesting thingabout this, I was very skeptical
at first.
I'm like who is this personreaching out to me?
Because they read my name in apaper like this is kind of weird
, right.
It's like who are you?
I don't know.
So you know I did the Googling,had a few meetings, kicked the
tires, that kind of thing, andwhen I actually sat down and did
the course, it was incrediblyconsistent with what I call the
(20:43):
art of collaboration, which mywhole career had really
previously been the art ofcollaboration like coalition
building, understandingdifferent levers of power,
keeping in mind the with them.
Right, like what's in it for me?
Why am I at this collectivetable?
Why should I help you reach agoal right.
All of those things were theart of collaboration right, and
(21:08):
I had kind of mastered thatsuccessfully.
I mean, pre-k wouldn't havehappened without the art of
collaboration right.
And then along comes this course, that sort of validated
everything I had experienced,you know, for 10 or 15 years.
That sort of validatedeverything I had experienced,
you know, for 10 or 15 years.
So it was just one of thosemoments where it's like kind of
followed my gut a little bit,like I'm going to take this
(21:30):
course, you know, let's see whathappens with this.
And it's worked out pretty well.
And it's not the only thing Ido in my consulting service, my
consulting business, but it's,it's, it seems to be one of the
popular offerings.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
It's interesting, so we're having this discussion
right now at work also, and it'swe were starting to talk about
this before we started recording, but there's this article out
on Wired, that's it's called.
It's the title the AI fueledfuture of work needs humans, uh,
more than ever.
Right, and so conceptuallyright.
(22:08):
Like these things likecollaboration, um, this people
to people collaboration andempathy and problem solving,
like active listening, all ofthose things are going to be the
most essential skills forhumans to have in an AI world.
(22:29):
Right, and I just I think thatthat's so profound Our humanness
is going to be the mostimportant thing for us to be
able to do and use and, um,going forward, and I just like
what you're saying like those,those things are so key into
this, this world of AI.
(22:49):
I mean, we say you know thefuture of AI, we're in the
future, it exists, it's here,it's here.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, right, it's, we are, we are on.
Um, I feel like we're buckledin to a roller coaster that
we're not quite aware of howfast it's going to go or how how
tall the loop, the loops, aregoing to be.
You know, my, I have threechildren and well, they're not
children, they're twenty seven,twenty three and twenty, and you
(23:18):
know I'm worried that they arethis.
That's the generation I thinkthat's going to live through the
churn.
You know, I think everything,everything's going to be a
little volatile and somewhatchaotic for a while.
Um, I mean, you can just lookno further than what technology
has done to politics.
(23:39):
I mean, social media alone hascompletely disrupted the skill
set that a candidate needs onthe campaign trail versus the
skill set that you need togovern well and manage, like
large bureaucracies and prettymuch 90% overlapping, with
(24:03):
social media and the age ofmisinformation and the
fragmentation of journalism andmedia, the skill sets of
candidates.
You know to win an election,you know that team and that
candidate needs entirelydifferent skill sets than what
it takes to govern effectively.
(24:23):
And so we haven't caught up.
Right, we haven't caught up andwe you have.
It's just disturbing what'shappening, to say the least.
So a lot of institutions andsystems are going to have
similar disruptions and it'sgoing to take a minute, like
meaning a gen.
(24:44):
I think it'll take a generationfor our institutions to to
reset and adjust, and I couldn'tagree more that.
You know, human it's only.
There's a great book, um, onlyhumans need apply.
It's probably on myself, I.
I read it, I don't know, Idon't know like four or five
(25:04):
years ago, but yeah, that thatought.
That um researcher and authorsaid essentially the same thing
that you know that the art, this, the things that make us
uniquely human, are going to bethe most important things.
But I also, I would also add tothat that you have to
understand human nature too, andthat's something that you know,
you have you can't do andthat's something that you know
(25:25):
you ha, you can't do.
I think that's something that'skind of harming the kids that
are in college now is like thatisolation that they had in high
school.
You know they, they lost out onsome key developmental years
and I, and then maybe the otherthat's just from my experience,
anecdotally, there was probablyother kids that you know are
missing something that theynormally would have gotten, um,
(25:48):
if not for the pandemic, butunderstanding human nature.
Because you, we're not going tobe able to understand the
impacts of technology unless wereally think about how are
humans going to receive orembrace or reject different
iterations of technology?
We don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, absolutely, and well, I mean gosh, that takes
me down a whole other path.
But just the impact thattechnology has on humans, right,
the way that we see we weretalking about social media and
all those different things inthe filters and like what does
that do to someone's psyche andmental health, and all of those
(26:26):
pieces as well.
And how do you, how do yousupport humans who are also
using this technology, that it'schanging them, right, we're,
we're, we're.
There's a, there's certainly anecosystem of us together in
this and it's changing us justas much as we're changing it,
and I just I think that that'sthat's also sort of a
(26:48):
fascinating piece.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Definitely, like even just cervical vertebrae.
You know, people are gettinglike our bodies are getting
changed.
From looking at the phones allthe time, it's like we're, we
are so in it and it's, it's,it's uh.
There's people who are veryself-aware about what's
happening and then there'sothers who are just kind of
(27:10):
going along with the technologythat's around them, right, like
you're, you're in this pool andyou're swimming in it, and so
it's.
It's very hard to, you know,kind of discern, like, how do
you adapt and also remainself-aware about the potential
negative, unintendedconsequences.
(27:31):
You know, it's really it's.
It's a really challenging time,I think.
And you know, if you've evergone on a new I don't know if
any of you have removed appsfrom your phone, but it's pretty
freeing.
I worked for Service EmployeeInternational Union, seiu,
(27:52):
during the Occupy movement and Idon't know if you know, but
SEIU organizes low-wage workersaround the world and tries to
ensure that they have betterwages and benefits, even though
they're in sectors thattraditionally pay a little lower
.
So Occupy was right up theiralley, you know, with the focus
on income inequality but the Iforget where I was going with
(28:18):
this.
But the Occupy movement really,you know, know, made me so
plugged in to twitter and soplugged in to, I was like a
little um too attached to myphone and at some point, because
there was an intensity aboutthat movement it was very short
(28:40):
but it was very intense.
Like every city that had anOccupy was just like it kind of
took over your life for a shorttime and cell phones were a huge
part of that.
Right, like organizing themarches and organizing the
protests in bank lobbies andstaying connected to one another
as you move through and it wasjust like super intense.
(29:02):
And after that movement settleddown, my New Year's resolution
that year was like to take thoseapps off my phone.
So I took Facebook off my phoneand plus, facebook Messenger
had like terrible privacy rulestoo, like there was.
I just had much more heightenedawareness around privacy
(29:24):
because weird things werehappening to certain people,
certain protesters electronicswere having weird things happen
to them.
But anyway, the wholesurveillance thing, it was like
a little spooky.
I'm not in that mindset anymore, but but I took that fee.
I took the Facebook off my phone.
It was so freeing, you know,and this was again 2012, right,
(29:48):
so every year I try to cut backon, you know, the things that
notify me, so just to protect mytime, and I think that it's
impossible to really tap intoyour purpose and achieve.
You know, it takes a certainamount of quiet in your life and
(30:09):
quiet in your day to really bein touch with purpose, or
intuition if you will.
And so all those distractionsreally pull at that and I think
they undermine your time firstand foremost, but worse than
(30:29):
that, the notifications and thedistractions undermine your
ability to tap purpose.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it definitely grabsattention.
I know that, you know.
For a while I was on theDoomscroll struggle bus, like
that was you know.
For a while I was on the doomscroll struggle bus, like that
was you know, even if I wastrying to watch a film, I would
be, you know, I would looksomething up and then it would
just trigger something else andI would just keep going.
I think it does.
It's almost like a detriment toyour attention span, to you
(31:02):
know, from the perspective ofyou really need to focus on this
.
This is important.
You're like what's on there,what's happening, and I don't
know like, do you're, like yousaid, you have 20 somethings now
what's the advice that you giveto them to help them, kind of
stay focused?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
help them kind of stay focused.
They've actually, interestingly, um, they've really limited
their own social media.
So my, except for my youngestmy youngest is like an Instagram
and Tik TOK junkie, but myolder two really weren't big
social.
They they kind of were leery ofit and didn't really.
You know they're more spectators, they don't, they don't let it
(31:47):
distract them all that much.
But the advice is the advice Ijust shared, you know, to just
be aware that you're, and it'sit's hard for 20 somethings to
hear that that time is your mostprecious resource and you know,
because they have it, they haveit to squander.
I guess when you know I thinkit was when my oldest turned 10,
(32:10):
I was just completelyastonished that a decade had
passed and it, just, it, just.
I remember just being reallyfreaked out that a decade had
just passed, you know, in theblip, and that was like the
beginning of my kind of freakishattention to hours in the day
and also my willingness to likesleep less and just kind of be a
(32:34):
weirdo about like every who didI give time to, why did I spend
time on things?
And, of course, like we allfritter hours away.
You know, no one is innocentfrom that, but just like the
acute awareness came fromwatching them, you know, years
(32:55):
just spin by.
So I feel like no mom can sayanything, that that really
individuals have to learn it ontheir own.
You know what?
What do they want to spendtheir time doing, I mean, and
that is really life like.
And I think that the biggestthing that I talk to them about
(33:15):
is like I do believe they werehere for like you're here for a
reason, I'm your mom for areason, you think I'm the
biggest pain in the ass you'veever met, but you picked me like
we're stuck here, we're in thislife, you know and you know, so
I just I just constantly talkabout purpose and intuition and
(33:40):
it's you know they roll theireyes and but they'll get it
someday.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
you know they roll their eyes and but they'll get
it someday.
Oh, and we are, I just so.
My son, just like I said he, hejust turned 10 in November.
So I felt that very deeply withthe decade.
I was like, oh shit, what how?
Speaker 1 (33:58):
how does that make sense at all?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Double digits.
Yeah, it was intense and for meand he didn't he's like, well,
I'm older, it's great.
But actually recently had aconversation with him also where
he what did he say?
He was something like I don'tever want a boss and like I want
to do what I want to do withthis life, cause I only get to
(34:21):
live this one life, and I waslike, yes, you've nailed it,
good for you.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yoga, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Right, and so that's the part of it and I and Cheryl
and I have talked about thisbefore too and for me, like I go
through these phases of like,consuming and creating, and
there are just the times whereI'm like, oh my, I feel like I'm
just seeing everyone else'sstuff.
I want to put something outinto the world.
I'm like, oh my, I feel likeI'm just seeing everyone else's
stuff.
I want to put something outinto the world.
I like there is something thatI am feeling the need to cause.
(34:52):
It's just I feel full of all ofthe stuff that I've just, you
know, whether it's the socialmedia or even reading sometimes
where I'm like I've, I've, I'vetaken in so much.
It's time for me to now putsomething out into the world,
whatever that may be.
And and I don't know, I justlike I have to tap into my own
body for getting that, thatknowing and then allowing the
(35:15):
space to create whatever it is.
That's kind of calling to menext.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, that's awesome, I feel like writing.
So I constantly, when I was, um, I don't know, grade school,
high school I learned about theflow state playing basketball.
I played basketball day in andday out.
Um and it, it, it was just, Ijust loved the game and it ended
(35:42):
up paying for college and thatwas wonderful and everything.
But that learning about thatflow state at such a young age
you're like you're, you'reconstantly looking for like
nothing is good enough unlessyou're tapping the flow state,
you know.
And so the adult version wassort of writing.
(36:02):
You know, writing gave me theflow state as an adult that
basketball gave writing.
You know, writing gave me theflow state as an adult that
basketball gave me.
You know, as a teenager andyoung, uh, like a college, uh,
it kind of wore off in college.
Honestly, the, the game meantsomething different for me then.
It was more like, uh felt likethe army in college, like after,
(36:24):
you know, you work so hard toget the scholarship and then
you're like, oh my God, reallythis and so.
But writing gives me that flowstate and and you don't even
have to publish it, you know, itdoesn't even have to be for
other people's benefit, it's,it's really just for for clarity
(36:46):
.
It it really forces yourthoughts um to crystallize,
because you, you know that'sthat's what to me that's the
benefit of writing is that it'sselfishly, puts me in the flow
state but, you know, reallyhelps ideas develop much, much
(37:07):
more fully.
Do you journal?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Because that's certainly something that helps
me yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, I do.
I used to, you know, when mykids were really little I was
like, oh my God, so many funnythings happen every day and I'm
like blurry eyed at the end.
You know, so I do.
I have some journals from whenthey were little and then put it
down for a while but thenpicked it up again, just like a
basic, you know, gratitudejournal.
You know, just my father passedaway last year so I just felt
(37:36):
like, you know, instead of beingsad.
Of course you can't get rid ofall the sad, of course you can't
get rid of all the sad, but abasic gratitude journal is
really has done pretty goodwonders since his passing.
You know, it just helpedcapture some memories and helped
get things to the present.
(37:57):
And you know, just think about,like, all the good things that
are still here.
But then you say like, oh well,he's missing all that.
You know it's a little bit ofcatch 22, but no, it's, it's
been really um, a good tool forthat and it's, it's uh, it's
different than professionalwriting.
Obviously, it's more of like,uh, like an uh centering
(38:22):
practice, you know.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
So I'm just going to jump in Cheryl.
So Cheryl has a book that shepublished actually, um, that was
around grief and silence, talkabout it, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Yeah.
So my mom passed away back inApril of 2022 from pancreatic
cancer and I admittedly didn'thandle it well, and what I found
was that it was very soothingto start writing, uh poems now.
I originally started writingthe poems as part of a contest
and then found out the contestwas a scam, so ended that really
(38:55):
quickly, was out of 50 bucks,totally fine, but what it did
was it opened up a differentmeans for me to express myself,
express, express feelings, and,as a result of that, I wrote
around I don't know 110 poems,something like that.
They came together in a book andit's called my Stay with the
(39:16):
Sisters and it's the sisters aregrief and gratitude and they
invite you into their housewhere you can explore different
rooms where different poems arethat express different emotions,
like there's a rage room,there's a kitchen for nostalgia,
there's a garden where youlearn to kind of grow from the
(39:36):
grief and the loss, and then atthe end there's always a key
that says whenever you need tocome back, you can come back to
it.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
That says whenever you need to come back you can
come back to it.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
So I find the whole I love that you're a writer and I
love that you talk about thingslike future proofing and things
like that.
I'm also very encouraged tohear that you journal, because I
do think that there's animportant element to that as
well, and I think that you know,sometimes I don't know if it's
so Flow State.
Thank you for that information.
Sometimes I don't know if it'sso flow state.
Thank you for that information,because I don't know if it was
flow state.
But for me I find it like if Iget something in my head, I have
(40:12):
to write it down.
And my notes app is like myfavorite thing because I'll just
jot that down and thateventually it'll make its way
into Word.
So yeah, that's very cool.
That's very cool that you usethe journaling to kind of get it
to get it out.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
That's very cool.
That's very cool that you usethe journaling to kind of get it
, to get it out, and that timeis short and that's the, that's
the overall thing that getsburgled from us when, when
things like that God, that wasfast and sudden, so I know that
that was really hard.
My dad had mesothelioma and hehad a little bit of time where
we knew his life wasn't going tobe as long as we thought it
(41:00):
would be, but it wasn't weeks ormonths, it was.
So, yeah, thanks, and, and it'sreally ironic, you know,
griefing your book, it's great,the sister's grief and gratitude
, you know, and that's kind ofwhat, what brought me to the
journaling, to the flip side ofthe coin there.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
It's that, you know, I learned a lot about things
like anticipatory grief and thencomplex grief, and, uh, it's
for me.
I was hoping that with the book, we could, you know, make a
connection to others and letthem know that they're not alone
.
And uh, yeah, so it's.
It's the little book that could.
And uh, uh, you know, the greatirony is that I never would
(41:46):
have written it, probably if mymom hadn't passed and that was
tough, but I do.
She was always happy to readwhatever I wrote, and some of my
stuff was downright goofy, so,but this was just a way to just
kind of honor her as well.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
So um yeah I feel like I have a book in me, but I
I can't decide if it's, if itwould be personal or
professional.
I'm still kind of, you know,there's a lot of things written
down in a lot of differentplaces and, uh, you know, again,
like the time, the justfiguring out, um, but I
(42:24):
definitely feel like that's apart of the future for me.
It's like there, I feel likeI'm a book in me and now that
I've said it, I probably jinxedmyself no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Do it, even if you're putting it out to the universe.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
That's right.
That's right.
And you know what?
Every first draft is thecrappiest thing you'll ever
write oh, I know that you knowwhat.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Every first draft is the crappiest thing you'll ever
write.
Oh, I know that you know what.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
I mean, Like that's you know, so you just kind of
have to put it out there and seewhat happens and where it takes
you, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah, I think it's going to be built slowly, like
on a website or LinkedIn postsor whatever.
Pull a thread together.
Pull a thread together, I meaneven the future proofing columns
, like after um, uh, they wereall like 20, 20, 21, 20, a
little bit in 22.
And then, so you know, all of asudden you look back and there
(43:22):
I had, like you know, 15 or 16and that particular publication
that was posting them.
They really went for long form.
So I mean there's, there'sdefinitely enough there for you
know that I have it in me like Ican write the volume right it's
just organizing it in a, in away that matters, that anybody
would read Right.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, cheryl and I have been talking about creating
a book from just even thesepodcasts episodes that we've had
, and finding themes andbringing out some of that stuff.
And so then so I, as I said, Ihave my math background, so the
data nerd part of me is likeokay, we can make a table and we
can look in Excel spreadsheetand then we'll put in themes
from the different episodes.
(44:03):
So I guarantee you've gotsomething.
I guarantee that there issomething there that can be
shared with the world and I'llread it.
You just let me know.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yes, I think one of the interesting things about the
world that we live in and theworld that our kids are going to
grow up and thrive in hopefullythrive is that you know the
everyone talks about lifelonglearning and the mindset of
continuous, continuous learning,continuous acquisition of
skills, like always, sort oflike I don't.
(44:40):
I don't know if that, if it'sreally sunk in to the majority
of people you know in theworkforce or even people
generally, this whole lifelonglearning thing.
It's a lot easier said thandone.
But the flip side of that isthat you are going to shift
identity quite a bit and that isreally hard for humans to do
(45:02):
and I speak from personalexperience, right, really hard
for humans to do and I speakfrom personal experience, right,
that you know.
Just like that transition froma college athlete to not college
athlete.
Well, what are you now?
Right, from not a mom to a mom,from a teacher to like, um, you
know, activists, right, likeall these different shifts.
(45:24):
That, I think, is I'm a littleatypical for Gen X, but it's
very typical, I think, formillennial and younger people in
the workforce, like thesedifferent jobs, different
industries, like moving around,and it's that like, where does
that sense of self come from?
(45:46):
If you are someone who definesyourself by how you make a
living or you know, where doesthat confidence or courage come
from to just shift identitiesand keep changing?
You know your sense of self.
I think it.
I think that's a skill set ourschools probably aren't teaching
(46:08):
right now.
Right Like how to shape, shiftwithout having you know anxiety
or crisis.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
I would pose to that that maybe it's not an identity
shift, it's an identitycentering and coming, coming to
a more close version of who youunderstand yourself to be, cause
I mean, look, in our 20s Ididn't know who I was, I not
really like I was figuring itout, right?
(46:40):
Um, and I think technology is apiece of some of that right.
Where there is access toknowledge, there is access to,
um, new ways of knowing andexploring some of those things.
And, um, you know, my kids areactually in Montessori school
because I I wanted them to learnhow to learn and for me, that
(47:03):
was one of the most importantskills, like, if you're told you
have to meet these standardsand do this, like this is where
you're at every single day andblah, blah, blah, like I.
Just for me, the Montessorimethod was just so wonderful
because it is that it's anexploration, it's a lifelong
exploration of learning and tohave access to that and to at
(47:27):
least this is for me.
I'm a technical, I'm an oldermillennial, but it's been more
of a.
I don't know what exactly isright for me, but I'm figuring
that out and I'm getting closerto that as I explore this life
and these.
What is a career and what doesthat look like?
For me, that it's notnecessarily a shifting of who I
(47:48):
am.
It's a better understanding ofwhat I can do in this world
based on what I've known,learned and experienced.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Yeah, no love that.
That's great, I think too.
It's like I think the I meanthe hardest thing obviously is
just failing, and even harderthan that is like failing in
public, right, like I've donethat a few times and that was
super hard to go through, but itwas also led to some of the
(48:17):
best transformations, like someof the richest transformations
for, you know, reaching the nextlevel, right, it really was
hard to be in it.
You know some of the shiftslike just, you know, can't even.
You know, and when you start abusiness, people say like, well,
(48:41):
you know you're going to fallon your face a few times, like,
and that that was like thegreatest thing about starting a
business not falling on my face,but the greatest thing about it
was getting comfortable being abeginner again.
You know, you reach, like I wasat a certain level in my career
as, like expert advocate, andthen you know, expert advocate,
(49:08):
and then you know, went intogovernment, created, you know,
did, did really good things ingovernment, like work on
understanding the systems, likeworking in cross-collaborative
ways, like did really goodthings and then laid off and
it's like, okay, I've neverstarted a business before, but I
knew it was now or never.
Yeah Right, started business.
What I underestimated was justthe, the challenges involved of
(49:31):
being a beginner in your in yourearly fifties.
Right, you're, you're.
That's not comfortable, butthat that discomfort, um, was so
good.
Climbing those mountains ofdiscomfort and climbing those
mountains of being a beginneragain and working through that
(49:56):
mental work of it was invaluable.
I guess it was a combination ofthe pandemic and then that
experience of being a beginneragain.
It really forced me to detach,like, my value and contributions
professionally from the incomethat I was able to earn in the
(50:17):
early years.
Right, it's like I get todecide my value, you know, and
it's okay if I'm not earning.
I just started a business.
So even though everyone tellsyou you're not going to make you
know the same, it's going totake you a few years to get back
to your income level.
Like you need to mentallyprepare for that.
Blah, blah, blah.
(50:38):
Um, I didn't believe them andthen I was frustrated by that
and then I extracted.
I got so many good, um,transformative lessons from that
that I that I I'm carryingthrough now, even even though
I'm earning.
I earn more in my business nowthat I did, you know, in in a
(51:01):
payroll position.
But those early years were darkLike they.
They were talk about struggle,boss right.
Being a beginner, you know,living in this space where we
all attach you know our earningsand our value are equated.
It's not the case, you know.
Ask any mom right Like howabout that unpaid labor Right?
(51:23):
So that that was, but that wasreally um, those were, those
were huge lessons and I I'mreally glad that I pushed
through the, the dark days, thestruggle plus days.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Sure, yeah, I, um, I want it.
We're already, I mean, we'realready over time, so we'll just
want to be conscientious ofyour time.
Also, I uh, back in 2020, I Iwrote my own eulogy, which is
why so many things have changedfor me.
But I also went on and, um, Ialso wanted an exploration of
(51:59):
defining success, right, like,what the hell does success
actually mean to me?
Not what I thought it was, ornot what I've heard it was, or
you know what are, whatever.
And so, for me, I looked at allthe different dimensions of
what success can really mean forme and, right, like, impact is
one of the things that I thatmatters for me.
And you know, there's, there'sfinancial there's.
(52:23):
You know, there's all differentways of looking at success, and
I think that that it soundslike you've also had an
exploration of that, doing thiswork too, and kind of going
through that.
That it's like, if successisn't just the money, right,
there's so much more to it thanthat.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yeah, actually that was.
It's really interesting you saythat because money, if I'm
honest, money was never really adriver for me.
I never really.
I was a teacher, you know and Ialways cared much more about
impact and I just wanted to be,you know, compensated fairly and
and have a respectablecompensation.
I didn't want anybody to takeadvantage or whatnot, but that
(53:04):
was never my main driver to takeadvantage or whatnot, but that
was never my main driver.
Um, I always went.
Every time I had to think about, like, what I was going to do
next, I would honestly lookaround and say what
organizations do I admire, whatcompanies, what leaders do I
want to work with, and I wouldseek roles with those people.
And it's worked out like reallywell and led to high impact
(53:29):
results and not shabbycompensation either.
Right, but it's always been.
It was always an afterthoughtfor me and that was one of the
biggest problems that I hadstepping out into private
consulting, because it can't bean afterthought when you're in
business for yourself, like youcan't just focus aboutthought
when you're in business foryourself Like
you can't just focus about theimpact, you have to.
(53:49):
So that was.
That was a lot of growing painstoo, like what, what are your
rates?
What, what's a faircompensation?
How is this going to be viablefor me?
Right, and so I wanted to do,and that that was.
You know, when you, when youwork for city government, and
someone calls you and says, hey,can you help me with this?
I, you know, when you, when youwork for city government, and
(54:09):
someone calls you and says, hey,can you help me with this?
I, you know this, that theother thing, the public servant,
um, culture, and my approachwas absolutely, let me take an
hour or two and help you outwith that.
Right, I had to consciouslyundo that and then get to
reality, where it was like, okay, I'll have a sure, we can have
(54:31):
coffee.
Okay, you can't have threecoffees.
Hey, can I pick your brain?
No, you know.
So, like, figuring out like, howto adjust that, like, wow, this
could lead to, even though Iknew like it could lead to high
impact results or whatever, Istill had to change the, the way
(54:56):
I thought about theconversations I have, the, the
pick your brain stuff that yougive away.
You know, I think, too, likewomen are acculturated to be
accommodating and, like you know, yes, I can help you with that,
and but no, no, so I had tohave.
I had to get some pro tips fromactually, one client of mine,
(55:19):
uh, from last year, is anabsolute pro at this.
He has he's total toolkit, youknow know, to address this
problem and he taught me how tohandle that problem and it's
been great, you know, and and it.
But thinking, you know, thatwhole shift was really tough
(55:39):
because it's I was always morefocused on impact than I was on
money, and so it was like yougot to figure out the balance,
and that works when you're inbusiness for yourself, you know.
Speaker 2 (55:51):
Definitely.
I just want to keep talking toyou forever, but you know that's
wonderful.
However, we should probably wrapthings up here.
I'm going to, you know we kindof wrap things up here.
I'm going to, you know, we kindof.
(56:12):
I think we may have touched onit a little bit with the book,
but I have sort of a lastquestion that we talked through
and it's the this is happening.
So this podcast happened aftera 10 pm.
Text to Cheryl where I saidCheryl, we need to make a
podcast together and this ishappening Right.
Text to Cheryl where I saidCheryl, we need to make a
podcast together and this ishappening Right.
We're doing it and here we areRight.
(56:35):
I mean, it's a good time to youknow all the things and pieces
to come together and stuff likethat.
But for me it was somethingthat I was just like.
I just know that this needs toexist in the world and I feel
this very deeply in my heart andof the trillion ideas that go
through my brain in the day, Iknow this one's going to exist
in the world and I just feelthat happening.
(56:57):
Do you have anything on yourheart that you can foresee,
whether it's for your business,personal life?
You know, I know you talkedabout the book and that's
something that you know you kindof thinking of, but is there
anything that's for you feelinglike this is happening that you
want to share?
Speaker 1 (57:19):
Well, that second part that you want to share,
right, that's the part thattakes a lot of courage to like
no you're being recorded andyou're going to put that out
there.
I think that I've been a veryeffective change maker and I
think that there's a toolkit forthat.
I think that there's a playbookfor that, and that's what I
(57:43):
want to put in the world, andthat's what I want to put in the
world.
I think that the world needs asmany people trying to do good in
it, right, to make the changesthat we need, but there's a lot
of people that don't know how todo that well, frustrated, and
(58:04):
they leave movements or theybail on coalitions or they give
up on systems Right.
And I feel like the thing that Ineed to put into the world is
this is how you do this.
These are the questions you askyourself.
This is how you become like agreat change maker, and it would
(58:24):
just be all the lessons Ilearned the hard way, and it
would be a combination of myfailures and successes put out
into the world for the benefitof other you know, do-gooders or
people who want to.
You know, it's really the kindof energy that we need to create
, like the country and the worldthat we need and the cities
(58:46):
that we need is massive, andthat's the kind of that's the
thing that might be my book.
It might not be my book, Idon't know, but that's the thing
I feel like needs to happen and, um, you know that I feel like
I can help with that.
Speaker 3 (59:04):
That's fantastic.
Thank you, I'll be one of thefirst in line for that.
That would be amazing.
That would be so amazing.
And how do people get incontact with you?
Speaker 1 (59:16):
The best way.
Thanks for asking that.
This has been an awesomeconversation.
I'm glad you two started yourpodcast because you both have
really good voices, like justlike the literal voice that you
have, but also your perspectives, like both voice.
You can find me on LinkedIn isthe best way I do.
(59:39):
I own my domain name, but it'snot really there yet, so but I
did get it but right now it'sjust, it's just LinkedIn so
Great.
Speaker 3 (59:50):
That's great, and we'll make sure we share that on
our socials as well, so thatpeople can get in touch with you
.
Thank you.
On behalf of Eileen and myself,I just want to say thank you so
much, anne, for your time.
And this concludes our episodeof you Only Go Once.
This is also the eve of theInternational Day of Women, so
(01:00:15):
I'm so thrilled that we spenttime with an amazing woman
tonight.
So thank you, anne, and foreverybody out there, thanks for
listening and we'll talk to youlater.
Bye.
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