April 18, 2024 • 39 mins
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Have you ever wondered why some transformations stick while others fizzle out like forgotten New Year's resolutions? Join us as transformative coach and author Jacob Kaufman unpacks the journey toward authentic change. In a heartfelt discussion, we move past the facade of achievement to address the deep-seated pain that shapes our personalities. It's about treating more than the symptoms; it's about the courage to face the struggles that lead to lasting change. Jacob's insights will guide you to understand why confronting our innermost challenges is crucial for genuine growth and fulfillment.
Achieving goals can feel like an adrenaline rush, but does it really equate to happiness? Together with Jacob, we peel back the layers of our desires, questioning what truly motivates us and the emotions we chase after ticking boxes off our lists. We challenge the "if this, then that" mentality and explore how joy can be found in the present moment, not just in a distant, elusive future. This episode isn't about chasing shadows; it's a philosophical shift towards pursuing meaningful aspirations while nurturing inner contentment—striving for a life that harmonizes success with genuine satisfaction.
In a culture where struggles with self-worth and identity are amplified, especially for men, this episode sheds light on the damaging effects of traditional masculinity norms on mental health. We celebrate the shift towards openness and vulnerability, recognizing the role it plays in normalizing mental health conversations. Our heart-to-heart with Jacob Kaufman concludes with an invitation to carry these discussions forward, recognizing the transformative power of facing our suffering head-on. Whether it's navigating societal pressures or personal challenges, this conversation aims to provide solace and inspire action towards a more fulfilling life.
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Jason Wasser Therapist/Coach
Online Tele-Therapy & Coaching 🖥
The Family Room Wellness Associates
Certified Neuro Emotional Technique Practitioner
🎧Host:You Winning Life Podcast
🎤Available for speaking engagements
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
let me record here um 45 ish minutes.
Does that work?
Sounds good, okay, so I'm gonnajust welcome you.
I'm going back afterwards and Ido the intro post after
everything's done and I havesome notes and everything, so
just assume I already did theintro and then so when I
welcomed you in, as if that wasthat so cool.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Awesome, all right.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
All right, y'all Welcome back to another episode
of the you Winning Life podcast.
And I get to say y'all proudly,because I have a wonderful
guest who's living in theAtlanta Georgia area and you
know that you're not fromAtlanta when you call it
hotlanta, so we're going to makesure we don't go there.
But Jacob Kaufman, who is atransformer, transformative
(00:54):
coach, author of the new booklet love in the pain stops when
the truth starts, and we'regoing to talk about some
hard-hitting New Year game planstrategies and some insights on
how to make life seriouslykicking ass.
So, jacob, thanks for hangingout with us.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Jason, thanks so much for having me.
I'm excited for theconversation today, yeah me too.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
So let's reverse engineer the process here.
One of the things that I lovefinding out from people is when
did they know that what you'redoing now is everything that
you're supposed to be doing?
Sure, so talk us, talk us alittle through that.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Oh man.
Well, I mean in terms of what Ido now, one could suggest that,
you know, I've essentially beenprepared for this my entire
life, you know, as someone whohas experienced a fair amount of
pain throughout the course oftheir lives.
It now prepares me and equipsme to be able to support people
(01:52):
in the alchemy of moving beyondtheir pain and turning that pain
, or transforming that pain,into purpose, power and progress
.
But when I knew that this waswhat I was supposed to be doing
was shortly before I starteddoing it, roughly back in 2015,
2016.
(02:12):
So about eight years ago, eight, nine years ago, when I first
stepped into the world ofpersonal development I did.
I did so because I had to right, there's two great catalysts
for transformation, and that'sgreat love or great suffering.
And for me it was greatsuffering.
And so I went into personaldevelopment to change so that I
(02:34):
could become a better, moreidealized version of myself.
And shortly after doing so, themoment, I experienced a little
bit of transformation.
Of course, I wanted to share it.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So I find that journey, that experience of
going through stuff, like yousaid, it's transformational, and
this word of personaldevelopment, personal growth,
transformation have in a lot ofways become cliche.
And so those that do the work Ikind of put it out of binary
You're either doing the work oryou're not doing the work.
(03:09):
And even that phraseology ofdoing the work is, you know, for
some people esoteric, or it'smythical, or they claim to be
doing it.
What are you finding one foryourself?
But and obviously I'm assumingwhat you're doing for yourself
and what you found for yourselfis what you're trying to help
guide other people with what?
What do you think separates onefrom the other?
(03:29):
Where that's the talk versusthe action?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Oh man, that's a great question.
Well, here's what I will say toto kind of tee up.
The answer is that the primarygoal of the ego is to maintain
the status quo, and the best wayfor it to do that is to hide
the truth from you.
So what this often looks likeis us convincing ourselves that
(03:57):
we're quote unquote doing thework when in reality we're not
right.
We're trying to solve for theego with the ego, which just
gives us a more stronglyreinforced and cleverly
disguised ego.
It's like rearranging the deckchair.
It's like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
(04:26):
At the end of the day, what thislooks like, practically
speaking, for a lot of people isespecially this time of year.
Shortly after the new year,people are making resolutions,
they're setting goals, they'rebringing all of this new year
new me energy into the new year.
Unfortunately, what we see isthat their approach to making a
(04:51):
change just has themovercompensating in the opposite
direction and not to use anextreme example.
(05:13):
But they were overweight, theywere out of shape, they were
lacking or they wereexperiencing significant
challenges in a certain area orcertain areas of their life, and
the new year represents, likethis benchmark, this opportunity
for a fresh start for them tomake a change.
They oftentimes exercise orleverage willpower in order to
(05:33):
get in shape, lose the weight,get their finances order,
whatever their resolutions maybe or may be focused towards.
But it's the same energy.
Different strategy is they'rebringing their ego right that
had them be overweight, out ofshape or whatever their specific
unique challenges were intoattempting to solve for that,
which is why it never workslong-term.
(05:54):
And all you have to do is lookat the statistics around.
The number of people who stayon track with their New Year's
resolutions, not to mentionactually accomplish them.
Like the statistics are justabsolutely awful.
I think, come, you know, march1st, over 85% of people are not
(06:15):
on track to accomplish their newyear's resolutions and I
believe, come end of 2024, over92% of people will have failed
when it comes to reaching theirnew year's resolutions.
Why is that?
You could say it's a lack ofcommitment, a lack of discipline
, a lack of resources, et cetera, et cetera.
(06:35):
But at the end of the day, allof those things are just
symptoms.
They're just symptoms.
They're these external factorsthat are currently being
motivated by underlyingunconscious factors.
Yeah, and until we do the workof actually undoing the parts of
(06:58):
our personality that had usoverweight, out out of shape
again.
Whatever your specific, uniquechallenges are, fill in the
blank.
All you'll end up doing iscreating more of the same.
You will revert back to yourformer level of behavior, but
the ego wants nothing more thanto avoid that entire process.
(07:20):
So it'll convince us that we'rebeing productive by getting us
to go to the gym moreconsistently.
Or, you know, we quit drinkingfor a month, or we adopt a new,
you know diet plan for a periodof time, and we actually see
results.
That's not the question.
But the question is where areyou six to 12 months from now?
(07:41):
And the answer for most people,unfortunately and the
statistics back this up isthey're right back to where they
started.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, yeah, the way we, we, we, we look at it and
the way I was trained was theattempted solutions to solve
your problem only gets you morestuck.
So there's two things that youdescribed in that accurately is
you have the attempt right, theaction, and then you have the
beliefs that come along withthat.
Right, the what's, what's the?
You know what's the beliefs,assumptions, expectations and
(08:10):
story.
And how does that serve you?
How does that not serve you?
To stay stuck or not stay stuck?
That's part of that.
So, like you said, unless thatstuff gets unpackaged and put on
the table and looked at of like, well, how does it serve you
not to achieve this?
Who doesn't it?
Who does it serve?
It won't serve someone.
If you're going out andtraining for a half marathon and
you're now out of the house.
That may not serve somebodyelse and you may want to honor
(08:32):
them by dishonoring yourself.
So that very, very accurate inthat new year's resolution.
And we see that you know theworld of first order versus
second order change, which isone of the ways that they talk
about it in cybernetics andsystems theory, is right.
The first order changes.
I'm going to do it differently.
Second order changes.
What's the beliefs behind thatsystem?
So very, very much apropos andI and that's kind of like where
(08:55):
we were brainstorming.
It's like the new year, new meversus new year, old beliefs,
different attempts based on thesame place.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
That got me stuck in the first place absolutely,
which is why we never rise tothe level of our goals.
We always fall to the level ofour beliefs, and so this is
really at the heart of the workthat I do with my clients,
because, you know, you arecorrect, oftentimes people, the
people, especially for thepeople that accomplish their
goals oftentimes they're verydiscouraged to find that they
(09:29):
accomplish their goals, theyachieve what they set out to,
and they feel the exact same way.
Or, for some people, they feeleven worse, even worse.
Right Now, they're experiencingan even greater degree of
emptiness or an even greaterdegree of anxiety or overwhelm,
(09:51):
because they didn't again.
They were just treating thesymptoms right.
All the work that they weredoing was merely surface level
in an attempt to solve forsomething that resides inside of
them.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, yeah.
One of my favorite storiesabout that is you know that
person that wakes up in themiddle of the night and they
they think they're hungry andthen they go to the fridge and
they open the fridge and they'relooking inside and like, eh,
it's not there.
And then they right, then theygo to the cupboard and they open
up the cupboard and they'relooking around no, it's not
there.
And then they go to to thefridge again and it's still not
(10:30):
there, as if it's automaticallygoing to pop up.
But that's like so descriptiveof what you're describing.
Right, and how many of us dothat?
We all do that in our ownunique way.
And this paradigm of like, I'verealized over the last couple
of years and tell me if thismakes sense to you that a lot of
times what people describe asgoals are really just action
steps.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I would agree with that, you know.
I mean, I think at the end ofthe day, it can't be about the
goal in and of itself, becausethat always proves to be
incomplete and insufficient tothe task.
You know, part of what we'll betalking about today is my book.
(11:10):
You know, anyone who's everwritten a book will tell you the
exact same thing that you knowafter having completed the book.
You know you grieve.
You grieve all the things thebook could have been but is not
right.
It's never about the end goal,it's about who you are forced to
(11:30):
become in the process ofaccomplishing that goal.
We always glorify the goal andyou know we're almost always
inevitably disappointed, youknow, because our focus tends to
be in the wrong place.
It's about accomplishing thisthing that's outside of us, the
inherent assumption being thatmy happiness, my joy, my
(11:50):
happiness, my fulfillment willbe found on the other side of
that goal realized, which isreally just to imply that my joy
, my happiness, my peace, myfulfillment, is not available to
me here, right?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
here right.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Correct.
It's out there in the future,which, of course, creates time,
and in that gap, right that'sfilled with time, is suffering
Cause that's what we're sayingis that the things that we're
after, right, the feelings,because that's really at the
heart of every goal that wepursue or have for ourselves.
It's not the actual thing, butgoal that we pursue or have for
ourselves it's not the actualthing, but how that thing is
(12:28):
then going to make us feel, orwhat it will enable us to do.
So it's a really empty gamewhen you think about it, because
it has so many people chasingafter their happiness in the
future.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah.
So if someone's listening tothis right now and they're
trying to figure out okay, do Ido that what are some of the
things in their languaging?
So, like you know, I Ichallenge my clients and I'm
always listening to the thingthat they say they want to
accomplish, not just the story.
Right, the story is alwaysimportant, but it's the but,
it's the unconscious rules thatthey're expressing that has to
(13:08):
serve the maintenance of thething they think they want to
get rid of.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Right.
Yep the unconscious motivationbeneath the conscious desire.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Right.
So what would you say?
As, as, as people are listeningto this they should be looking
out for in something that theywant to achieve, and they're
they're hearing themselves, orthey're just finding that they
can catch themselves leaninginto a narrative that isn't
supporting them, like what wouldbe like so if you hear yourself
(13:36):
saying this or you hear these,uh, words or phrases coming out?
This might not be supportingyou that you found with a lot of
your clients.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well, it's classic.
It's classic If this, then thatthinking.
So my encouragement would benot just to determine what you
want, but why you want it.
What are you hoping that that'sgoing to enable you to do?
And then therefore feel, thekey being what is it that needs
(14:07):
to happen in order for you toaccess that feeling?
Now, that's, that's the bigthing.
That's the big thing.
So it's this classic if this,then that thinking, dualistic
thinking right, this or that,this then that, the idea being
(14:27):
again that I can't access orhave what it is that I really
want to feel until this happens.
And that's how we create awin-win situation right, when we
can still have goals.
Right, Because goals are notinherently bad or wrong.
I would suggest that they'revery supportive because we're
(14:50):
wired for transcendence, we'rewired to desire expansion and
growth.
So that's how we create awin-win situation where we still
have our goals, but we're notattached to them as the source
of our happiness, because we areable to cultivate and create
happiness for ourselves in thisvery moment.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, and I haven't shared this on any previous
episode in the ways that itcomes up for me with my clients.
Is that both ends, right?
You're talking about the dualversus non-dual paradigm, right,
it's the both end.
Is that one um, while you'reworking through or struggling
with x, how can we manifest y?
Right, and it's not correct,right.
And we also have to talk aboutthe rules.
(15:33):
And is it allowed culturally,gender, religion, right?
All the things that are playingout and holding us back from
that and put those on the, youknow, make those unconscious
conscious and see where thosethings are, but also dancing in
that duality of how you evendescribe it.
Right, the sentence of um, Ican't wait, right, this thing is
(15:53):
going to be really amazing.
But such and such and such, andwhen people flip the structure,
the sentence structure of, eventhough I'm still working on
this, I'm very excited aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Right?
Yep, it's, it's always bothright.
One one should not have to comeat the cost of the other.
But that's oftentimes the gamethat most people play, even if
they're unaware of it, right.
They oftentimes sacrifice theirpresent happiness for the sake
of accomplishing future goals,and so they end up
(16:28):
self-sacrificing in a certain orspecific area in their life for
the sake of attaining orreaching that goal.
You know, because, as a societyby and large, we're addicted,
you know, we're addicted toaccomplishment.
We're addicted to success andachievement and looking good.
All classic, you know, classicaddictions of the false self,
(16:54):
which is why the addict's creedis we always want more of what
doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, yeah, and, and and the question that you know
this was way deeper than I waseven thinking about asking is
you know, the world is set upwith these things and we're
working away or working towardssomething different, and the
universe obviously benefits fromus having to struggle with this
, and we obviously benefit fromhaving to struggle with this,
but this is not something new.
(17:20):
I mean, this is time.
Time is all this, right?
There's all this history and,and I don't know if you've ever,
you know, dabbled deeper into,well, where the hell did this
come from in the first place?
Right, I mean, we obviouslyhave all the different theories
of ego and super ego, and thenyou know all the dual, non-dual
paradigms and thepsycho-spiritual stuff.
But what, what's your bestunderstanding and appreciation
(17:46):
of why this came into?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
existence in the first place for humanity.
Well, I would suggest that it'sdivinely designed and it's the
necessary pattern.
I mean, if you look at thecourse of history, it really
transcends time and cultures anddifferent religions.
And it seems to be very truefor everybody that in the
beginning, we alwaysovercompensate right, like we're
(18:11):
born with this innate wounding,if you will, or this propensity
to thin, which is like theclassic religious term for it.
But, put in another way, we allhave this fault that we are
ultimately trying to make up for, and so we overcompensate right
(18:33):
, so we become this person thatwe think we need to be in order
to be loved, accepted,successful, admired, loved,
accepted, successful, admired,etc.
Then, as the pattern wouldfollow, at least we then would
ideally decompensate, which iswhy true transformation is
always predicated on dying tosomething and has much more to
(18:56):
do with unlearning than it doesto do with, like, learning or
developing, and then we properlycompensate.
So so, yeah, this kind of youknow transcends um time,
religion, cultures, um, becauseyou, you find it all over the
place, even in ancient mythology, for example, um, where, you
(19:20):
know, even in like ancientstories, like take hercules, for
example, on some deep, inherentlevel, he, you know, had this
intuitive notion or feeling thathe was born of royal blood.
Like this is classic stuff.
Yeah, you know that that stilleven shows up in um, oh gosh,
(19:44):
what's the?
What's the new pixar movie?
Um, or the, the latest pixarseries of um, the, the two
sisters in frozen, it's the samething, it's the same thing, you
know.
So, in hercules, he had thisdeep, inherent knowing that he
was born of royal blood.
You know, caused him to try tolive up to that which was to say
(20:08):
overcompensate, only to thenrealize that, oh, I am of royal
blood, I don't actually need toovercompensate, I can just be
myself, essentially, which himto, to show up authentically,
right, properly compensate.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
And that's the journey that we all the hero's
journey, which is what a lot ofpeople would describe that as
yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
A hundred percent, you are correct, right which was
popularized as a framework forstorytelling and used in
Hollywood, but really is thespiritual journey that we all
must go on in order to move from, you know, this
self-actualization orindividuation stage of
(20:53):
development and move intoself-transcendence.
In fact, maslow and hishierarchy of needs
self-actualization in his firstiteration of it, was the highest
, the notion or the idea ofbecoming the highest version of
(21:14):
myself.
But it was all based aroundindividual success and
achievement.
And toward the end of his lifehe came into contact and he met
Viktor Frankl who, if you'refamiliar, wrote Man's Search for
Meaning Correct, who was apsychiatrist, the founder of
Logotherapy, who came toessentially popularize and found
(21:37):
what is known as will topurpose, that man's primary
motivation is for meaning, forsignificance and for purpose.
And the only way that that canhappen is to be dedicated to a
cause greater than oneself.
And Maslow eventually said yeah,that's actually higher.
(22:01):
That is actually higher thanwhat I have prescribed is the
highest level of needs, thatbeing like accomplishing or
achieving the highest version ofyourself.
It's actually bigger than that.
It has to supersede you, it hasto go beyond you.
Right, outlive you, if you will, right In order for you to be
(22:23):
truly fulfilled.
Because as long as the idea isthat, as long as we're focused
on ourselves and the pursuit ofour own individual, private
perfection, right God, theuniverse whatever you want to
call it can't utilize us to ourfull potential in a way that
benefits humanity and allows usto be of highest service to
(22:46):
humanity.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, and it's powerful coming from him because
of his experience of goingthrough the Holocaust and
surviving, and just most of thebook, a lot of the book, is
describing what his experiencewas like and I'm wondering
comparison, you know, incomparison to maslow, right,
having those two differentexperiences, right, academia and
and whatever it might be, andyou know, being in, being, being
(23:09):
in a safer place than literallyhaving to live in a latrine and
a death camp and surviving in a, in a toilet, uh, which which
we know that he did, and youknow he tells that story man's
search for looking at thoseangles and perspectives that's
why we all need some type ofyeah Right, and not to run away
from it and not to avoid it.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
A necessary struggle.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Is what Carl Jung essentially said we all must go
through and or experience inorder to go from the first half
of life to the second, fromself-actualization and
individuation to transformationand transcendence.
We have to experience thisnecessary struggle or necessary
(23:53):
suffering, where our currentmental resources, our strong
willpower and our acquiredknowledge are just not a match
for.
We have to confront somethingthat we just don't know how to
deal with, and that's that'skind of where my book literally
picks up and starts off is meacknowledging, you know, that I
(24:13):
was sexually abused and for thefirst time in my life, I'm
having to confront the pain ofthat and the 15 plus years of
suppressed and repressedemotions that were just kind of
lying dormant inside of me, thatI had been simply performing my
way around and by performing Imean, you know, being career
oriented and overly obsessed andconsumed with accomplishment
(24:37):
and achievement and climbing thecorporate ladder and being
successful as an entrepreneurAgain, not that there's anything
inherently wrong with that, butit was simply a compensating
strategy so that I could avoidmy pain, you know.
And and then, all of a sudden,I was, you know, I experienced
this existential crisis for lackof a better phrase where I came
(24:58):
into relationship with, like,the parts of my persona that
were not actually me but that Ihad spent so long
self-identifying with, whichreally led to this.
I mean, there's really no otherway to put it than this deep,
deep state of depression, and Ithink most people, at some point
(25:22):
in time in their lives, areconfronted by this.
You know, we call it themidlife crisis for a reason, you
know, and there seems to bepeople having like this quarter
life crisis.
Now, you know, because of, like, social media and this egoic
game that it has us playing,where we're constantly comparing
and competing and you know, allof this other stuff, right, but
(25:44):
it's all just this, this game,that's all it is that we, but
that so many people, especiallymen, are getting stuck in
nowadays, right, and we don'tactually move beyond this phase
of individuation or selfactualization, and we're where
we get opened up to this biggerpicture and caught up into a
(26:07):
purpose that is is so muchbigger than than us and the
title let love in right.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
That's very descriptive of especially around
men, and you know, being lovingin that classical sense is
about what do I take care of?
What am I responsible for?
How do I show up in the world?
What have I achieved andaccomplished Right, which is,
which is very different than thewhole Brene Brown power
vulnerability paradigm and cause.
A lot of people still,especially men or more, are very
(26:35):
likely to describe thatvulnerability as a weakness and
as what's going to.
How is that going to take meoff my a game?
How did you decide on thattitle and and as the primary
jumping off point?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Great question.
Well, I mean, it was one of thethings that I would suggest,
actually the primary thing thatkind of woke me up to the game
that I was playing for lack of abetter phrase, to the game that
I was playing, for lack of abetter phrase where I was
constantly holding people atarm's length.
I was hiding behind thesevarious masks that I started to
take on in childhood.
(27:13):
One could suggest thataccelerated after my abuse,
where I started to act as if Istarted to act as if I was
successful, as if I had it alltogether, as if I was quote,
unquote fine, and how many mendo we know nowadays that would
kind of fit the bill.
Right, I'm fine, you know.
But when you actually sit downand have a real honest
(27:37):
conversation with them, justlike if you had done so with me
in my mid twenties, despite mycareer success, despite from the
outside looking in like I hadit all together and I had
everything going for me and inmany ways I did but all of it
was just this unconsciousperformance to overcompensate
(28:00):
and ultimately make up for thisdeep-seated insecurity and lack
of self-worth that I experienceddue to my abuse.
And this is what I find most men, especially highly accomplished
men are in the position ofnowadays.
Is this high performer personathat they take on in an effort
(28:21):
to become successful is reallyjust this unconscious attempt to
claim victory over their pain?
That's really all it is, youknow, and that's why so many men
, despite their success, reportincreasingly higher levels of
unhappiness, increasingly higherlevels of unhappiness, of
(28:42):
anxiety, of depression, ofsuicidal ideation, of suicide
attempts, and so this has becomeso unfortunately redundant,
especially in my work, because,you know, I'm constantly
coaching people.
It's what I do for a profession.
It's a tale as old as time.
It's what I do for a profession.
(29:05):
It's a tale as old as time.
Like I got everything that Iset out to achieve and yet, on
some deeply inherent level, Ifeel empty inside.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, and I see how many, so many people, especially
with the men that I'm workingwith, where they can't
necessarily put their finger onit, and it is that compensation.
But look at all these wonderfulthings I have in my life.
Why am I still missingsomething?
And is it's?
It's because we are, we havethis role of being, you know,
the provider and the take careright.
All these things that we have,these obligations, societal
obligations and I love it makesme so happy to know those of us,
(29:39):
you and others, who are helpingpeople have.
Yes, you can have all thatsuccess.
Yes, you could be kicking assand work.
Yes, you can, right, you canhave that reputation and you can
be a leader and you could be,uh, committing to those things
in your life and you can alsofeel and believe that you are in
life is amazing and I'm so gladto see that shift over the last
(30:03):
many years.
Where I remember starting as aas a young therapist in my early
twenties, the joke of like youknow, the difference is in New
York, but right up North, right,everybody went to therapy,
right, that was like the thing,right and and in Florida it's
kind of like, oh, you're atherapist.
And how that's changed over theyears.
Where, like it's not, like, oh,you, you don't have a therapist
(30:23):
in New York, something's wrongwith you.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Sure, oh, I bet, yeah , of course.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Right and and cause that's just.
Everybody goes to theirtherapist up in the Northeast
and that was right there.
The DC, you know, corridor,that's a thing, but now, as it
moved this way, maybe in LA,maybe also, but you know, here
in the South right In Floridaand Georgia.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Southern States right .
Speaker 1 (30:43):
It's.
It's now become so, thankfully,more normal that I'm sure
you're probably seeing peoplethat would have never called
five years ago Finally showingup.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, no, and it's.
It's really awesome to seepeople one could suggest the
progress that we've made overallas a society, especially
amongst men, you know, becausewomen obviously, you know they
tend to have this, at leasthistorically speaking this
(31:19):
really beautiful therapeuticembrace about them.
Right, they tend to congregatein groups much more, they tend
to talk about and be open abouttheir feelings much more and
what's really going on with them, where, historically, men have
friended in the oppositedirection, which is to shut down
how they feel, which is toclose off, which is to hide,
(31:41):
which is to not have closerelationships.
And again, the statistics backthis up.
I believe they say that one infive men report having no close
friendships nowadays, which isinsane to think about, um, but I
do believe it is the thing, um,that thing being suffering,
that propels us to seek help,yeah, to, or to go, or to go to
(32:08):
therapy.
You know, going back to what Isaid at the beginning of the
episode, where I said the twogreatest catalysts for
transformation are either greatlove or great suffering.
And if you know, great love,great love tends to come with
great suffering, so it prettymuch just boils down to great
suffering.
You know, we, we seem to needthings to get so bad to where
you know we can no longer ignorethem, and I think this serves
(32:32):
to kind of support this TonyRobbins quote where it's like
until the pain of staying thesame is greater than the pain of
change, then you're not goingto actually change, right.
You're going to go oncontinuing to live under this
illusion, which is to just say,you're going to go on continuing
to be addicted to your ways ofbeing, doing and living that
(32:54):
allow you to have the life thatyou have, but still wrestling
with this, this internal void,this emptiness, or this very
high baseline level of anxietythat so many people now report
these days.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, and I think it's.
I mean, I've heard it fromother people, but I know Jesse
Itzler, who's, you know, local,local boy to you, yep.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yep Local Atlanta guy .
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Look at, yep, very, yeah, part of part owner now of
uh right of the of the hawks uhyeah, so I know in his coaching
community he talks right whenyou're sick.
I'm sick and tired of beingsick and tired, right which?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
is not his originally .
Speaker 1 (33:35):
But I know he talks, you know he uses that phrase a
lot and and, and I still see.
It's so interesting, where Istill see this, it is primarily
a lot with men where there'sthis intellectual knowing, but
that space that you know, thatfoot between the head and the
heart is the longest distanceand they may say they want it
(33:59):
and they may say they know andthey right, and I hear this
commonly from I know, I know, Iknow, I know I need to be doing
that, I want to be doing that, Iwant to be doing that, yep, and
it's just figuring out likewhat?
Well, oh, okay, where is it?
What's going on?
and, and that's the necessity ofthe work with you and the work
(34:20):
with me and the work with otherpeople that are handling this
space.
That is absolutely, and I wantto challenge people.
I write if you're listening tothis and you're like debating
and it's yeah right it's thebeginning of 2024 now and you're
listening to jacob and jacoband I talk and you've been
waiting and you've been waiting,and you've been waiting.
We're here.
Jacob's here, right?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
right.
Yeah, and this is I meanobviously between you and me.
We have a high fluency forright, how the psyche works,
works and how it's allinterrelated.
But for those of you who arelistening, this is the
difference between the consciousmind and the subconscious mind.
The conscious mind is connectedto what we know and it's
(35:00):
responsible for what we say, so,for example, what we say we
want but it's our subconsciousmind that is connected to who we
actually are and it'sresponsible for what we do, the
actions and the decisions thatwe, that we make or take.
And so, in order to create afundamental, foundational,
(35:24):
long-lasting, sustainable changein our lives, whatever that
looks like, with regard towhatever area you're seeking to
improve in right, we have toshift the unconscious person.
You can't just adopt new habitsor incorporate new patterns of
behavior like that's not gonnawork, you can't kamikaze it.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, don't, don't be a kamikaze, just dive right
into all that yeah, right again.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Just we're rearranging deck chairs on the
titanic that's all.
That's all it is at the end ofthe day, right, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna buy a gym membership.
I'm gonna hire a personaltrainer.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
I'm gonna right, adopt this new clothing, new
sneakers, yeah, new totally yeahexactly a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Building a house on top of a faulty foundation, you
know.
But the real work of addressingthe foundation, the foundation
being right, our relationshipwith ourselves and our
self-identity, that's the workthat the ego seems to resist the
most.
Because it seems to be that,more than anything, the ego is
(36:28):
resistant to change right, atleast true change, not just
again changing.
You know my, my habits, or youknow my patterns of behavior in
terms of, like, what I eat orwho I spend time with, or or
those things it's really about.
You know who I be and and how Ishow up and the decisions that
I make in the world love it.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So short of instagram , which everybody uh pull if
you're not driving, take outyour phone right now and go on
instagram.
If you do have instagram stilland and just search.
I am jake kaufman,k-a-u-f-f-m-a-n and you can find
some really great links and uhthere.
But where else can they uhtrack you down and get?
But where else can they trackyou down and get more
information Besides obviouslygetting the book on any you know
(37:11):
, resale?
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, yep, absolutely .
If you're interested in pickingup the book, you can do so via
the link in my bio on myInstagram.
Otherwise, it is on Amazon.
It is my full name, sosomething to keep in mind it's
Jacob Kaufman.
Again, that's K-A-U-F-F-M-A-N.
Otherwise, you can sign up formy newsletter on my website,
which is awakewithjakecom, and Ilook forward to connecting with
(37:34):
you on the interwebs.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Awesome.
So, for anybody who's listeningto this, if you A either took
one little takeaway from it, wewould love to hear from you.
So that's why I said, just grabout your phone and and send
jake a message and just say, hey, I love this little tidbit.
Send me that message, uh, thatwe know that we're getting these
really awesome guests andobviously the, the person that
(37:56):
introduced us, is, uh, you know,doing a great job of.
I know you've been on some of myother friends podcast shout out
to erica brawl and uh, he's agood, really good buddy of mine,
and so, yeah, so I know, right,the right people are getting to
the right places.
And obviously we want to makesure that you know you're,
you're knowing that you're, youknow that you're being not just
(38:16):
received but that people needthis, and and I want people to
really give us that feedback oflike, hey, this really did hit
for me and this is what I'mgoing to do with it.
And you know, check out reallydid hit for me and this is what
I'm going to do with it.
And you know, check out, checkup Jacob's book and like
everything else, yeah, just, youknow, please, everybody, you
know where to reach us and Jacob, again, congratulations, one
first on on doing the work andnot just talking about it, but
(38:37):
doing the work.
I know you know just the bitsand pieces that you did share
with us and you know I wouldlove to actually invite you back
to.
What you have gone through isnot talked about enough amongst
the male population and it iscoming out in certain circles.
I know here within the Jewishcommunity, there's a lot more
(38:59):
talk about abuse from men to men, specifically in the community,
and there's people who areleading those conversations and
it's finally coming out.
I know certain church circlesit's coming up, but just in the
general society of personaldevelopment and personal growth,
where that has impacted andwhat you can do with that is a
powerful conversation.
So if you would love to comeback and we can delve a little
(39:19):
bit more into that and any othertopic obviously- more than
neurology and philosophy andspirituality all that other
stuff.
But thank you again for sharingyour time with us today.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Jason, thanks again for having me.
I appreciate it.
let me record here um 45 ish minutes.
Does that work?
Sounds good, okay, so I'm gonnajust welcome you.
I'm going back afterwards and Ido the intro post after
everything's done and I havesome notes and everything, so
just assume I already did theintro and then so when I
welcomed you in, as if that wasthat so cool.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Awesome, all right.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
All right, y'all Welcome back to another episode
of the you Winning Life podcast.
And I get to say y'all proudly,because I have a wonderful
guest who's living in theAtlanta Georgia area and you
know that you're not fromAtlanta when you call it
hotlanta, so we're going to makesure we don't go there.
But Jacob Kaufman, who is atransformer, transformative
(00:54):
coach, author of the new booklet love in the pain stops when
the truth starts, and we'regoing to talk about some
hard-hitting New Year game planstrategies and some insights on
how to make life seriouslykicking ass.
So, jacob, thanks for hangingout with us.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Jason, thanks so much for having me.
I'm excited for theconversation today, yeah me too.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
So let's reverse engineer the process here.
One of the things that I lovefinding out from people is when
did they know that what you'redoing now is everything that
you're supposed to be doing?
Sure, so talk us, talk us alittle through that.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Oh man.
Well, I mean in terms of what Ido now, one could suggest that,
you know, I've essentially beenprepared for this my entire
life, you know, as someone whohas experienced a fair amount of
pain throughout the course oftheir lives.
It now prepares me and equipsme to be able to support people
(01:52):
in the alchemy of moving beyondtheir pain and turning that pain
, or transforming that pain,into purpose, power and progress
.
But when I knew that this waswhat I was supposed to be doing
was shortly before I starteddoing it, roughly back in 2015,
2016.
(02:12):
So about eight years ago, eight, nine years ago, when I first
stepped into the world ofpersonal development I did.
I did so because I had to right, there's two great catalysts
for transformation, and that'sgreat love or great suffering.
And for me it was greatsuffering.
And so I went into personaldevelopment to change so that I
(02:34):
could become a better, moreidealized version of myself.
And shortly after doing so, themoment, I experienced a little
bit of transformation.
Of course, I wanted to share it.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So I find that journey, that experience of
going through stuff, like yousaid, it's transformational, and
this word of personaldevelopment, personal growth,
transformation have in a lot ofways become cliche.
And so those that do the work Ikind of put it out of binary
You're either doing the work oryou're not doing the work.
(03:09):
And even that phraseology ofdoing the work is, you know, for
some people esoteric, or it'smythical, or they claim to be
doing it.
What are you finding one foryourself?
But and obviously I'm assumingwhat you're doing for yourself
and what you found for yourselfis what you're trying to help
guide other people with what?
What do you think separates onefrom the other?
(03:29):
Where that's the talk versusthe action?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Oh man, that's a great question.
Well, here's what I will say toto kind of tee up.
The answer is that the primarygoal of the ego is to maintain
the status quo, and the best wayfor it to do that is to hide
the truth from you.
So what this often looks likeis us convincing ourselves that
(03:57):
we're quote unquote doing thework when in reality we're not
right.
We're trying to solve for theego with the ego, which just
gives us a more stronglyreinforced and cleverly
disguised ego.
It's like rearranging the deckchair.
It's like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
(04:26):
At the end of the day, what thislooks like, practically
speaking, for a lot of people isespecially this time of year.
Shortly after the new year,people are making resolutions,
they're setting goals, they'rebringing all of this new year
new me energy into the new year.
Unfortunately, what we see isthat their approach to making a
(04:51):
change just has themovercompensating in the opposite
direction and not to use anextreme example.
(05:13):
But they were overweight, theywere out of shape, they were
lacking or they wereexperiencing significant
challenges in a certain area orcertain areas of their life, and
the new year represents, likethis benchmark, this opportunity
for a fresh start for them tomake a change.
They oftentimes exercise orleverage willpower in order to
(05:33):
get in shape, lose the weight,get their finances order,
whatever their resolutions maybe or may be focused towards.
But it's the same energy.
Different strategy is they'rebringing their ego right that
had them be overweight, out ofshape or whatever their specific
unique challenges were intoattempting to solve for that,
which is why it never workslong-term.
(05:54):
And all you have to do is lookat the statistics around.
The number of people who stayon track with their New Year's
resolutions, not to mentionactually accomplish them.
Like the statistics are justabsolutely awful.
I think, come, you know, march1st, over 85% of people are not
(06:15):
on track to accomplish their newyear's resolutions and I
believe, come end of 2024, over92% of people will have failed
when it comes to reaching theirnew year's resolutions.
Why is that?
You could say it's a lack ofcommitment, a lack of discipline
, a lack of resources, et cetera, et cetera.
(06:35):
But at the end of the day, allof those things are just
symptoms.
They're just symptoms.
They're these external factorsthat are currently being
motivated by underlyingunconscious factors.
Yeah, and until we do the workof actually undoing the parts of
(06:58):
our personality that had usoverweight, out out of shape
again.
Whatever your specific, uniquechallenges are, fill in the
blank.
All you'll end up doing iscreating more of the same.
You will revert back to yourformer level of behavior, but
the ego wants nothing more thanto avoid that entire process.
(07:20):
So it'll convince us that we'rebeing productive by getting us
to go to the gym moreconsistently.
Or, you know, we quit drinkingfor a month, or we adopt a new,
you know diet plan for a periodof time, and we actually see
results.
That's not the question.
But the question is where areyou six to 12 months from now?
(07:41):
And the answer for most people,unfortunately and the
statistics back this up isthey're right back to where they
started.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, yeah, the way we, we, we, we look at it and
the way I was trained was theattempted solutions to solve
your problem only gets you morestuck.
So there's two things that youdescribed in that accurately is
you have the attempt right, theaction, and then you have the
beliefs that come along withthat.
Right, the what's, what's the?
You know what's the beliefs,assumptions, expectations and
(08:10):
story.
And how does that serve you?
How does that not serve you?
To stay stuck or not stay stuck?
That's part of that.
So, like you said, unless thatstuff gets unpackaged and put on
the table and looked at of like, well, how does it serve you
not to achieve this?
Who doesn't it?
Who does it serve?
It won't serve someone.
If you're going out andtraining for a half marathon and
you're now out of the house.
That may not serve somebodyelse and you may want to honor
(08:32):
them by dishonoring yourself.
So that very, very accurate inthat new year's resolution.
And we see that you know theworld of first order versus
second order change, which isone of the ways that they talk
about it in cybernetics andsystems theory, is right.
The first order changes.
I'm going to do it differently.
Second order changes.
What's the beliefs behind thatsystem?
So very, very much apropos andI and that's kind of like where
(08:55):
we were brainstorming.
It's like the new year, new meversus new year, old beliefs,
different attempts based on thesame place.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
That got me stuck in the first place absolutely,
which is why we never rise tothe level of our goals.
We always fall to the level ofour beliefs, and so this is
really at the heart of the workthat I do with my clients,
because, you know, you arecorrect, oftentimes people, the
people, especially for thepeople that accomplish their
goals oftentimes they're verydiscouraged to find that they
(09:29):
accomplish their goals, theyachieve what they set out to,
and they feel the exact same way.
Or, for some people, they feeleven worse, even worse.
Right Now, they're experiencingan even greater degree of
emptiness or an even greaterdegree of anxiety or overwhelm,
(09:51):
because they didn't again.
They were just treating thesymptoms right.
All the work that they weredoing was merely surface level
in an attempt to solve forsomething that resides inside of
them.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, yeah.
One of my favorite storiesabout that is you know that
person that wakes up in themiddle of the night and they
they think they're hungry andthen they go to the fridge and
they open the fridge and they'relooking inside and like, eh,
it's not there.
And then they right, then theygo to the cupboard and they open
up the cupboard and they'relooking around no, it's not
there.
And then they go to to thefridge again and it's still not
(10:30):
there, as if it's automaticallygoing to pop up.
But that's like so descriptiveof what you're describing.
Right, and how many of us dothat?
We all do that in our ownunique way.
And this paradigm of like, I'verealized over the last couple
of years and tell me if thismakes sense to you that a lot of
times what people describe asgoals are really just action
steps.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I would agree with that, you know.
I mean, I think at the end ofthe day, it can't be about the
goal in and of itself, becausethat always proves to be
incomplete and insufficient tothe task.
You know, part of what we'll betalking about today is my book.
(11:10):
You know, anyone who's everwritten a book will tell you the
exact same thing that you knowafter having completed the book.
You know you grieve.
You grieve all the things thebook could have been but is not
right.
It's never about the end goal,it's about who you are forced to
(11:30):
become in the process ofaccomplishing that goal.
We always glorify the goal andyou know we're almost always
inevitably disappointed, youknow, because our focus tends to
be in the wrong place.
It's about accomplishing thisthing that's outside of us, the
inherent assumption being thatmy happiness, my joy, my
(11:50):
happiness, my fulfillment willbe found on the other side of
that goal realized, which isreally just to imply that my joy
, my happiness, my peace, myfulfillment, is not available to
me here, right?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
here right.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Correct.
It's out there in the future,which, of course, creates time,
and in that gap, right that'sfilled with time, is suffering
Cause that's what we're sayingis that the things that we're
after, right, the feelings,because that's really at the
heart of every goal that wepursue or have for ourselves.
It's not the actual thing, butgoal that we pursue or have for
ourselves it's not the actualthing, but how that thing is
(12:28):
then going to make us feel, orwhat it will enable us to do.
So it's a really empty gamewhen you think about it, because
it has so many people chasingafter their happiness in the
future.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah.
So if someone's listening tothis right now and they're
trying to figure out okay, do Ido that what are some of the
things in their languaging?
So, like you know, I Ichallenge my clients and I'm
always listening to the thingthat they say they want to
accomplish, not just the story.
Right, the story is alwaysimportant, but it's the but,
it's the unconscious rules thatthey're expressing that has to
(13:08):
serve the maintenance of thething they think they want to
get rid of.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Right.
Yep the unconscious motivationbeneath the conscious desire.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Right.
So what would you say?
As, as, as people are listeningto this they should be looking
out for in something that theywant to achieve, and they're
they're hearing themselves, orthey're just finding that they
can catch themselves leaninginto a narrative that isn't
supporting them, like what wouldbe like so if you hear yourself
(13:36):
saying this or you hear these,uh, words or phrases coming out?
This might not be supportingyou that you found with a lot of
your clients.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well, it's classic.
It's classic If this, then thatthinking.
So my encouragement would benot just to determine what you
want, but why you want it.
What are you hoping that that'sgoing to enable you to do?
And then therefore feel, thekey being what is it that needs
(14:07):
to happen in order for you toaccess that feeling?
Now, that's, that's the bigthing.
That's the big thing.
So it's this classic if this,then that thinking, dualistic
thinking right, this or that,this then that, the idea being
(14:27):
again that I can't access orhave what it is that I really
want to feel until this happens.
And that's how we create awin-win situation right, when we
can still have goals.
Right, Because goals are notinherently bad or wrong.
I would suggest that they'revery supportive because we're
(14:50):
wired for transcendence, we'rewired to desire expansion and
growth.
So that's how we create awin-win situation where we still
have our goals, but we're notattached to them as the source
of our happiness, because we areable to cultivate and create
happiness for ourselves in thisvery moment.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, and I haven't shared this on any previous
episode in the ways that itcomes up for me with my clients.
Is that both ends, right?
You're talking about the dualversus non-dual paradigm, right,
it's the both end.
Is that one um, while you'reworking through or struggling
with x, how can we manifest y?
Right, and it's not correct,right.
And we also have to talk aboutthe rules.
(15:33):
And is it allowed culturally,gender, religion, right?
All the things that are playingout and holding us back from
that and put those on the, youknow, make those unconscious
conscious and see where thosethings are, but also dancing in
that duality of how you evendescribe it.
Right, the sentence of um, Ican't wait, right, this thing is
(15:53):
going to be really amazing.
But such and such and such, andwhen people flip the structure,
the sentence structure of, eventhough I'm still working on
this, I'm very excited aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Right?
Yep, it's, it's always bothright.
One one should not have to comeat the cost of the other.
But that's oftentimes the gamethat most people play, even if
they're unaware of it, right.
They oftentimes sacrifice theirpresent happiness for the sake
of accomplishing future goals,and so they end up
(16:28):
self-sacrificing in a certain orspecific area in their life for
the sake of attaining orreaching that goal.
You know, because, as a societyby and large, we're addicted,
you know, we're addicted toaccomplishment.
We're addicted to success andachievement and looking good.
All classic, you know, classicaddictions of the false self,
(16:54):
which is why the addict's creedis we always want more of what
doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, yeah, and, and and the question that you know
this was way deeper than I waseven thinking about asking is
you know, the world is set upwith these things and we're
working away or working towardssomething different, and the
universe obviously benefits fromus having to struggle with this
, and we obviously benefit fromhaving to struggle with this,
but this is not something new.
(17:20):
I mean, this is time.
Time is all this, right?
There's all this history and,and I don't know if you've ever,
you know, dabbled deeper into,well, where the hell did this
come from in the first place?
Right, I mean, we obviouslyhave all the different theories
of ego and super ego, and thenyou know all the dual, non-dual
paradigms and thepsycho-spiritual stuff.
But what, what's your bestunderstanding and appreciation
(17:46):
of why this came into?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
existence in the first place for humanity.
Well, I would suggest that it'sdivinely designed and it's the
necessary pattern.
I mean, if you look at thecourse of history, it really
transcends time and cultures anddifferent religions.
And it seems to be very truefor everybody that in the
beginning, we alwaysovercompensate right, like we're
(18:11):
born with this innate wounding,if you will, or this propensity
to thin, which is like theclassic religious term for it.
But, put in another way, we allhave this fault that we are
ultimately trying to make up for, and so we overcompensate right
(18:33):
, so we become this person thatwe think we need to be in order
to be loved, accepted,successful, admired, loved,
accepted, successful, admired,etc.
Then, as the pattern wouldfollow, at least we then would
ideally decompensate, which iswhy true transformation is
always predicated on dying tosomething and has much more to
(18:56):
do with unlearning than it doesto do with, like, learning or
developing, and then we properlycompensate.
So so, yeah, this kind of youknow transcends um time,
religion, cultures, um, becauseyou, you find it all over the
place, even in ancient mythology, for example, um, where, you
(19:20):
know, even in like ancientstories, like take hercules, for
example, on some deep, inherentlevel, he, you know, had this
intuitive notion or feeling thathe was born of royal blood.
Like this is classic stuff.
Yeah, you know that that stilleven shows up in um, oh gosh,
(19:44):
what's the?
What's the new pixar movie?
Um, or the, the latest pixarseries of um, the, the two
sisters in frozen, it's the samething, it's the same thing, you
know.
So, in hercules, he had thisdeep, inherent knowing that he
was born of royal blood.
You know, caused him to try tolive up to that which was to say
(20:08):
overcompensate, only to thenrealize that, oh, I am of royal
blood, I don't actually need toovercompensate, I can just be
myself, essentially, which himto, to show up authentically,
right, properly compensate.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
And that's the journey that we all the hero's
journey, which is what a lot ofpeople would describe that as
yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
A hundred percent, you are correct, right which was
popularized as a framework forstorytelling and used in
Hollywood, but really is thespiritual journey that we all
must go on in order to move from, you know, this
self-actualization orindividuation stage of
(20:53):
development and move intoself-transcendence.
In fact, maslow and hishierarchy of needs
self-actualization in his firstiteration of it, was the highest
, the notion or the idea ofbecoming the highest version of
(21:14):
myself.
But it was all based aroundindividual success and
achievement.
And toward the end of his lifehe came into contact and he met
Viktor Frankl who, if you'refamiliar, wrote Man's Search for
Meaning Correct, who was apsychiatrist, the founder of
Logotherapy, who came toessentially popularize and found
(21:37):
what is known as will topurpose, that man's primary
motivation is for meaning, forsignificance and for purpose.
And the only way that that canhappen is to be dedicated to a
cause greater than oneself.
And Maslow eventually said yeah,that's actually higher.
(22:01):
That is actually higher thanwhat I have prescribed is the
highest level of needs, thatbeing like accomplishing or
achieving the highest version ofyourself.
It's actually bigger than that.
It has to supersede you, it hasto go beyond you.
Right, outlive you, if you will, right In order for you to be
(22:23):
truly fulfilled.
Because as long as the idea isthat, as long as we're focused
on ourselves and the pursuit ofour own individual, private
perfection, right God, theuniverse whatever you want to
call it can't utilize us to ourfull potential in a way that
benefits humanity and allows usto be of highest service to
(22:46):
humanity.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, and it's powerful coming from him because
of his experience of goingthrough the Holocaust and
surviving, and just most of thebook, a lot of the book, is
describing what his experiencewas like and I'm wondering
comparison, you know, incomparison to maslow, right,
having those two differentexperiences, right, academia and
and whatever it might be, andyou know, being in, being, being
(23:09):
in a safer place than literallyhaving to live in a latrine and
a death camp and surviving in a, in a toilet, uh, which which
we know that he did, and youknow he tells that story man's
search for looking at thoseangles and perspectives that's
why we all need some type ofyeah Right, and not to run away
from it and not to avoid it.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
A necessary struggle.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Is what Carl Jung essentially said we all must go
through and or experience inorder to go from the first half
of life to the second, fromself-actualization and
individuation to transformationand transcendence.
We have to experience thisnecessary struggle or necessary
(23:53):
suffering, where our currentmental resources, our strong
willpower and our acquiredknowledge are just not a match
for.
We have to confront somethingthat we just don't know how to
deal with, and that's that'skind of where my book literally
picks up and starts off is meacknowledging, you know, that I
(24:13):
was sexually abused and for thefirst time in my life, I'm
having to confront the pain ofthat and the 15 plus years of
suppressed and repressedemotions that were just kind of
lying dormant inside of me, thatI had been simply performing my
way around and by performing Imean, you know, being career
oriented and overly obsessed andconsumed with accomplishment
(24:37):
and achievement and climbing thecorporate ladder and being
successful as an entrepreneurAgain, not that there's anything
inherently wrong with that, butit was simply a compensating
strategy so that I could avoidmy pain, you know.
And and then, all of a sudden,I was, you know, I experienced
this existential crisis for lackof a better phrase where I came
(24:58):
into relationship with, like,the parts of my persona that
were not actually me but that Ihad spent so long
self-identifying with, whichreally led to this.
I mean, there's really no otherway to put it than this deep,
deep state of depression, and Ithink most people, at some point
(25:22):
in time in their lives, areconfronted by this.
You know, we call it themidlife crisis for a reason, you
know, and there seems to bepeople having like this quarter
life crisis.
Now, you know, because of, like, social media and this egoic
game that it has us playing,where we're constantly comparing
and competing and you know, allof this other stuff, right, but
(25:44):
it's all just this, this game,that's all it is that we, but
that so many people, especiallymen, are getting stuck in
nowadays, right, and we don'tactually move beyond this phase
of individuation or selfactualization, and we're where
we get opened up to this biggerpicture and caught up into a
(26:07):
purpose that is is so muchbigger than than us and the
title let love in right.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
That's very descriptive of especially around
men, and you know, being lovingin that classical sense is
about what do I take care of?
What am I responsible for?
How do I show up in the world?
What have I achieved andaccomplished Right, which is,
which is very different than thewhole Brene Brown power
vulnerability paradigm and cause.
A lot of people still,especially men or more, are very
(26:35):
likely to describe thatvulnerability as a weakness and
as what's going to.
How is that going to take meoff my a game?
How did you decide on thattitle and and as the primary
jumping off point?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Great question.
Well, I mean, it was one of thethings that I would suggest,
actually the primary thing thatkind of woke me up to the game
that I was playing for lack of abetter phrase, to the game that
I was playing, for lack of abetter phrase where I was
constantly holding people atarm's length.
I was hiding behind thesevarious masks that I started to
take on in childhood.
(27:13):
One could suggest thataccelerated after my abuse,
where I started to act as if Istarted to act as if I was
successful, as if I had it alltogether, as if I was quote,
unquote fine, and how many mendo we know nowadays that would
kind of fit the bill.
Right, I'm fine, you know.
But when you actually sit downand have a real honest
(27:37):
conversation with them, justlike if you had done so with me
in my mid twenties, despite mycareer success, despite from the
outside looking in like I hadit all together and I had
everything going for me and inmany ways I did but all of it
was just this unconsciousperformance to overcompensate
(28:00):
and ultimately make up for thisdeep-seated insecurity and lack
of self-worth that I experienceddue to my abuse.
And this is what I find most men, especially highly accomplished
men are in the position ofnowadays.
Is this high performer personathat they take on in an effort
(28:21):
to become successful is reallyjust this unconscious attempt to
claim victory over their pain?
That's really all it is, youknow, and that's why so many men
, despite their success, reportincreasingly higher levels of
unhappiness, increasingly higherlevels of unhappiness, of
(28:42):
anxiety, of depression, ofsuicidal ideation, of suicide
attempts, and so this has becomeso unfortunately redundant,
especially in my work, because,you know, I'm constantly
coaching people.
It's what I do for a profession.
It's a tale as old as time.
It's what I do for a profession.
(29:05):
It's a tale as old as time.
Like I got everything that Iset out to achieve and yet, on
some deeply inherent level, Ifeel empty inside.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, and I see how many, so many people, especially
with the men that I'm workingwith, where they can't
necessarily put their finger onit, and it is that compensation.
But look at all these wonderfulthings I have in my life.
Why am I still missingsomething?
And is it's?
It's because we are, we havethis role of being, you know,
the provider and the take careright.
All these things that we have,these obligations, societal
obligations and I love it makesme so happy to know those of us,
(29:39):
you and others, who are helpingpeople have.
Yes, you can have all thatsuccess.
Yes, you could be kicking assand work.
Yes, you can, right, you canhave that reputation and you can
be a leader and you could be,uh, committing to those things
in your life and you can alsofeel and believe that you are in
life is amazing and I'm so gladto see that shift over the last
(30:03):
many years.
Where I remember starting as aas a young therapist in my early
twenties, the joke of like youknow, the difference is in New
York, but right up North, right,everybody went to therapy,
right, that was like the thing,right and and in Florida it's
kind of like, oh, you're atherapist.
And how that's changed over theyears.
Where, like it's not, like, oh,you, you don't have a therapist
(30:23):
in New York, something's wrongwith you.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Sure, oh, I bet, yeah , of course.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Right and and cause that's just.
Everybody goes to theirtherapist up in the Northeast
and that was right there.
The DC, you know, corridor,that's a thing, but now, as it
moved this way, maybe in LA,maybe also, but you know, here
in the South right In Floridaand Georgia.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Southern States right .
Speaker 1 (30:43):
It's.
It's now become so, thankfully,more normal that I'm sure
you're probably seeing peoplethat would have never called
five years ago Finally showingup.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, no, and it's.
It's really awesome to seepeople one could suggest the
progress that we've made overallas a society, especially
amongst men, you know, becausewomen obviously, you know they
tend to have this, at leasthistorically speaking this
(31:19):
really beautiful therapeuticembrace about them.
Right, they tend to congregatein groups much more, they tend
to talk about and be open abouttheir feelings much more and
what's really going on with them, where, historically, men have
friended in the oppositedirection, which is to shut down
how they feel, which is toclose off, which is to hide,
(31:41):
which is to not have closerelationships.
And again, the statistics backthis up.
I believe they say that one infive men report having no close
friendships nowadays, which isinsane to think about, um, but I
do believe it is the thing, um,that thing being suffering,
that propels us to seek help,yeah, to, or to go, or to go to
(32:08):
therapy.
You know, going back to what Isaid at the beginning of the
episode, where I said the twogreatest catalysts for
transformation are either greatlove or great suffering.
And if you know, great love,great love tends to come with
great suffering, so it prettymuch just boils down to great
suffering.
You know, we, we seem to needthings to get so bad to where
you know we can no longer ignorethem, and I think this serves
(32:32):
to kind of support this TonyRobbins quote where it's like
until the pain of staying thesame is greater than the pain of
change, then you're not goingto actually change, right.
You're going to go oncontinuing to live under this
illusion, which is to just say,you're going to go on continuing
to be addicted to your ways ofbeing, doing and living that
(32:54):
allow you to have the life thatyou have, but still wrestling
with this, this internal void,this emptiness, or this very
high baseline level of anxietythat so many people now report
these days.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah, and I think it's.
I mean, I've heard it fromother people, but I know Jesse
Itzler, who's, you know, local,local boy to you, yep.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yep Local Atlanta guy .
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Look at, yep, very, yeah, part of part owner now of
uh right of the of the hawks uhyeah, so I know in his coaching
community he talks right whenyou're sick.
I'm sick and tired of beingsick and tired, right which?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
is not his originally .
Speaker 1 (33:35):
But I know he talks, you know he uses that phrase a
lot and and, and I still see.
It's so interesting, where Istill see this, it is primarily
a lot with men where there'sthis intellectual knowing, but
that space that you know, thatfoot between the head and the
heart is the longest distanceand they may say they want it
(33:59):
and they may say they know andthey right, and I hear this
commonly from I know, I know, Iknow, I know I need to be doing
that, I want to be doing that, Iwant to be doing that, yep, and
it's just figuring out likewhat?
Well, oh, okay, where is it?
What's going on?
and, and that's the necessity ofthe work with you and the work
(34:20):
with me and the work with otherpeople that are handling this
space.
That is absolutely, and I wantto challenge people.
I write if you're listening tothis and you're like debating
and it's yeah right it's thebeginning of 2024 now and you're
listening to jacob and jacoband I talk and you've been
waiting and you've been waiting,and you've been waiting.
We're here.
Jacob's here, right?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
right.
Yeah, and this is I meanobviously between you and me.
We have a high fluency forright, how the psyche works,
works and how it's allinterrelated.
But for those of you who arelistening, this is the
difference between the consciousmind and the subconscious mind.
The conscious mind is connectedto what we know and it's
(35:00):
responsible for what we say, so,for example, what we say we
want but it's our subconsciousmind that is connected to who we
actually are and it'sresponsible for what we do, the
actions and the decisions thatwe, that we make or take.
And so, in order to create afundamental, foundational,
(35:24):
long-lasting, sustainable changein our lives, whatever that
looks like, with regard towhatever area you're seeking to
improve in right, we have toshift the unconscious person.
You can't just adopt new habitsor incorporate new patterns of
behavior like that's not gonnawork, you can't kamikaze it.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, don't, don't be a kamikaze, just dive right
into all that yeah, right again.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Just we're rearranging deck chairs on the
titanic that's all.
That's all it is at the end ofthe day, right, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna buy a gym membership.
I'm gonna hire a personaltrainer.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
I'm gonna right, adopt this new clothing, new
sneakers, yeah, new totally yeahexactly a hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Building a house on top of a faulty foundation, you
know.
But the real work of addressingthe foundation, the foundation
being right, our relationshipwith ourselves and our
self-identity, that's the workthat the ego seems to resist the
most.
Because it seems to be that,more than anything, the ego is
(36:28):
resistant to change right, atleast true change, not just
again changing.
You know my, my habits, or youknow my patterns of behavior in
terms of, like, what I eat orwho I spend time with, or or
those things it's really about.
You know who I be and and how Ishow up and the decisions that
I make in the world love it.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So short of instagram , which everybody uh pull if
you're not driving, take outyour phone right now and go on
instagram.
If you do have instagram stilland and just search.
I am jake kaufman,k-a-u-f-f-m-a-n and you can find
some really great links and uhthere.
But where else can they uhtrack you down and get?
But where else can they trackyou down and get more
information Besides obviouslygetting the book on any you know
(37:11):
, resale?
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, yep, absolutely .
If you're interested in pickingup the book, you can do so via
the link in my bio on myInstagram.
Otherwise, it is on Amazon.
It is my full name, sosomething to keep in mind it's
Jacob Kaufman.
Again, that's K-A-U-F-F-M-A-N.
Otherwise, you can sign up formy newsletter on my website,
which is awakewithjakecom, and Ilook forward to connecting with
(37:34):
you on the interwebs.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Awesome.
So, for anybody who's listeningto this, if you A either took
one little takeaway from it, wewould love to hear from you.
So that's why I said, just grabout your phone and and send
jake a message and just say, hey, I love this little tidbit.
Send me that message, uh, thatwe know that we're getting these
really awesome guests andobviously the, the person that
(37:56):
introduced us, is, uh, you know,doing a great job of.
I know you've been on some of myother friends podcast shout out
to erica brawl and uh, he's agood, really good buddy of mine,
and so, yeah, so I know, right,the right people are getting to
the right places.
And obviously we want to makesure that you know you're,
you're knowing that you're, youknow that you're being not just
(38:16):
received but that people needthis, and and I want people to
really give us that feedback oflike, hey, this really did hit
for me and this is what I'mgoing to do with it.
And you know, check out reallydid hit for me and this is what
I'm going to do with it.
And you know, check out, checkup Jacob's book and like
everything else, yeah, just, youknow, please, everybody, you
know where to reach us and Jacob, again, congratulations, one
first on on doing the work andnot just talking about it, but
(38:37):
doing the work.
I know you know just the bitsand pieces that you did share
with us and you know I wouldlove to actually invite you back
to.
What you have gone through isnot talked about enough amongst
the male population and it iscoming out in certain circles.
I know here within the Jewishcommunity, there's a lot more
(38:59):
talk about abuse from men to men, specifically in the community,
and there's people who areleading those conversations and
it's finally coming out.
I know certain church circlesit's coming up, but just in the
general society of personaldevelopment and personal growth,
where that has impacted andwhat you can do with that is a
powerful conversation.
So if you would love to comeback and we can delve a little
(39:19):
bit more into that and any othertopic obviously- more than
neurology and philosophy andspirituality all that other
stuff.
But thank you again for sharingyour time with us today.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Jason, thanks again for having me.
I appreciate it.
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