September 15, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of the Young Dad Podcast, host Jey Young speaks with Dr. David Marcus, a clinical psychologist with over 40 years of experience. They discuss the importance of emotional connections in parenting, the concept of a 'soothing presence,' and how parents can better communicate with their children.
Dr. Marcus emphasizes the need for parents to understand their own emotional responses and the impact of stress on family dynamics. He provides insights into children's developmental assumptions about their emotions and the importance of creating safe spaces for open communication. The conversation also touches on 'emptying out' children to help them manage their emotions effectively, the significance of developing emotional language, and the challenges of peer pressure in adolescence.
Takeaways
Parents are the agents of change in their children's lives.
Children learn emotional responses from their parents' behavior.
Creating a soothing presence is essential for effective parenting.
Stress can lead parents to regress to their own childhood behaviors.
Understanding emotional language is crucial for communication with children.
Parents must create safe spaces for their children to express themselves.
The process of emptying out children helps them manage emotions.
Tweaking parenting skills can empower parents to make a difference.
Assumptions about children's emotionality can hinder communication.
Peer pressure can be mitigated through open dialogue with parents.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Emotional Connection
01:07 Journey into Psychology
03:50 The Concept of Soothing Presence
07:36 Understanding Internalization and Regression
10:41 The Role of Parents in Child Development
14:16 Assumptions of Emotionality in Children
20:30 Creating Safe Spaces for Communication
24:09 The Process of Emptying Out Children
28:14 The Art of Soothing Children
31:43 Understanding Emotional Depths
35:36 The Role of Parents in Emotional Development
38:45 Navigating Peer Pressure and Teen Relationships
46:22 The Importance of Emotional Language
51:03 Advice for New Dads
Check out the Website for Interactive Activity Guides, Resources, Full Transcripts, all things YDP- www.youngdadpod.com
Clink the Link for YDP Deals (Joon, Forefathers &more)- https://linktr.ee/youngdadpod
Want to be a guest on Young Dad Podcast? Send Jey Young a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.joinpodmatch.com/youngdad
Lastly consider a monetary donation to support the Pod, https://buymeacoffee.com/youngdadpod
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
And welcome back to the Young Dad Podcast.
Whether you're outside grilling,changing dirty diapers, coaching
Little League, outside mowing the lawn, whatever you're at,
whatever you're doing, thanks for tuning in and thanks for
taking a moment to be with us. I'm your host, Jay, and super
excited to be with you as always.
Today's guest is Doctor David Marcus, a clinical psychologist
with over 40 years of experiencehelping families build stronger
(00:31):
emotional connections even in the middle of stress, conflict,
or chaos. He's here to talk about how we
can improve the way we talk to and listen to our children.
His strategies are practical, powerful and rooted in decades
of real world family support. So if you're ready for a great
conversation on how you can better connect with your kids,
talk to your kids, and of course, listen as well, this
podcast is for you. So make sure you grab a juice
(00:52):
box, grab a snack, and let's jump into it.
David, welcome to the show. Thank.
You thanks for having me, Jay of.
Course, super excited to have you.
So before we jump into all the meat and potatoes of the
conversation, can you kind of take us through what got you
into this field originally? Ironically, I'll start with
that. When I was an undergraduate at
the University of Pittsburgh in psychology, but I actually
(01:16):
avoided doing the clinical courses.
I was more interested in the research courses.
So I graduated from there with abachelor's in psychology and I
got a job doing research and believe it or not,
neuroendocrinology, which is effective hormones on the brain.
(01:39):
I did a three-year study that turned out to be very successful
that I presented at a conventionin New York.
I was very scared because I was only 24 years old, but I was our
first author on this fairly prestigious paper.
And then I decided, you know, I need more people contacting
(02:01):
this. I was working in a lab and I
said, oh, OK, let me see if I want to do more the clinical end
of psychology. And so I volunteered at the
state hospital near Philadelphia.
And from that work I went to work with a nation in
Philadelphia. And finally I decided this is
what I wanted to do. I wanted to work with kids and
adults, and I want to work with families.
(02:23):
And so I applied to Graduate School and went to the
University of Louisville for my PhD in clinical psychology.
And I found it very creative. All right, It's doing
psychotherapy. In depth psychotherapy with
families under stress is what I specialize in.
I find every person, every family is unique.
(02:45):
And so you need to be creative and never think that you really
know exactly what's going on because as soon as you do that,
you start getting formulaic. You need to meet each family
where they like, where they needto be.
So the creativity part of it is,is one of the things that's
really kept me going and also living with the knowledge that
(03:06):
you're never going to really, really know.
So you keep exploring. And that's what I say with the
people that I see. We're going to go on on mutual
exploration for the things that you're coming to me with because
most people come to me and say I'm doing this and I don't know
why I feel this way and I don't know why I should be doing this,
but I'm not. And I don't know why.
(03:28):
You know, these are the kind of questions I get.
So we have to basically find thewords for what's going on.
You know, how come they're doingthese things or not doing these
things or feeling how they are. And when you deal with families
under stress, you're dealing with a whole family system of
people. So I never see children without
seeing their parents. You know, I'm very aware that I
(03:51):
am not the agent of change. And I see a family under stress
that the parents are. And so I try to help them
develop what I call a soothing presence.
And what is a soothing presence?Well, in its simplest form,
soothing presence is somebody who is OK when you're not OK.
(04:12):
When we think about the people that we turn to when we're upset
or feeling something intensely, we've picked certain people,
friends or family, usually not many, but invariably the people
that we pick are people who are OK when we're not OK.
Well, the reason I use the term soothing presence rather than
(04:34):
soothing person is because in order to be that person who's OK
when say, when your children arenot OK, you need to have the
environment that supports you. And that's one of the things I
often have to talk to parents about is lifestyle.
For instance, there's a lot of stress beside stress on families
(04:56):
these days, you know, 2 income families, you know, the
finances, etcetera. And that can make it very
difficult to be a soothing presence for your children.
So we talk about that as well. There's a lot to that because
what we're talking about is whenpeople get very stressed, they
have a tendency to what's calledregress.
(05:18):
And what I mean by that is they regress to older ways of dealing
with things and with parents is typically how they were raised.
OK. One of the things that is
important to understand is something called
internalization. And what do I mean by that?
Internalization is almost like subliminal learning.
(05:40):
It's sort of we we learn things under a level of awareness.
A good example in a sociologicallevel would be prejudice.
It's not like somebody at the age of 17 tells you you're going
to start hating black people or age computer that you know,
because at that by that time you've had enough experience in
your own life to say and wait a minute, why would I do that?
(06:03):
You know, but at the age of fourand five and six, and you hear
the jokes or you see the reactions and things, it gets in
there. It gets in there.
And one of the things I was going to bring up that
internalization regression is because one of the things that
children pick up from their parents is how to react to
stress. OK.
(06:27):
So if your parents are understanding and they talk
things out, then OK, that's whatyou'll probably do as you grow
up too. And if you get stressed, that's
where you may regress to. But families that, for instance,
parent gets angry or even physical, you know, when they
(06:48):
get stressed, well then that child picks that up.
And this is one of the reasons why children who are abused and
when they grow up and they become parents, they'll swear
that they never do what happenedto them to their own children.
But under stress, especially under, under, under.
Excuse me, unanticipated stress that's causes the greatest
(07:08):
regression. Of course we're not expecting
it. And children are marvels at
giving us unanticipated stress. So they'll all of a sudden they
find themselves and they start to hit.
And this is how there's a legacyof abuse across generations.
So it's important for parents tolearn the skills of being a, how
to be a soothing presence, what that entails, but it also means
(07:31):
the environment and being very aware of where they may regress
to under stress now. Yeah.
No issue. OK.
No, no, no. If you have a question please or
a comment. Oh, no, I'll see the comment
because I, I was actually just having this conversation
yesterday because I, I don't really let it be known too often
(07:52):
on the podcast here, but I also work, well, actually I do pretty
often. I work in mental health and
behavioral health as well. And I was having a parent group
last night, a group of parents. And we were talking about just
this very thing because two of the parents in that, well, I
guess technically, yeah, three of the parents actually have a
(08:12):
have a child with autism. And we were talking about that,
that mirroring right there, right, about how they'll do
exactly what their parents will do when it comes to handling the
different emotional situations and talking about stress or
talking about just even empathy or how kind they are.
And then talking directly to a couple of the dads that were
(08:34):
there with the children with autism and one without.
It was like your, your boys are are more likely going to do
exactly what you do than what mom does.
Like you have an incredibly strong influence on your boys as
well. And we got really deep into that
conversation and it was really, it was really impactful.
But that was just kids across the board, like you're talking
(08:56):
about here to where they, the way that they learn is by
watching, right? They watch what we do as parents
and they learn what we're doing as parents and that's what
they're going to do as well. So how you handle things, even
if you, you know, don't lash outat people physically, if you're
lashing out at people verbally, that can get them the cue to,
(09:17):
OK, well, this is how dad handles it.
So that's how I'm going to handle it because this he if
he's doing it, it must be OK kind of thing because my dad's,
you know, my dad does everything, you know,
essentially, right. So dad does it, it's OK or mom
does it. That's OK for me to then do the
same thing. No, I that's exactly what I'm
speaking. No, where I'm extending it a
(09:39):
little bit, Jay, is the fact that even when you're grown,
these things are inside you. It's not what's just you're just
not reacting like when you're a child.
You see Dad react and you went the same way.
The child who grows up reacts the way dad did.
You see, and it's like this internalized thing.
It's almost subliminal. They may regret it later.
(10:01):
You know what I mean? You know, I try to make parents
aware that this is where they can go.
And often times the parents go into different places and
sometimes that leads to arguments about how to parent.
Yeah, because both parents come from a different place.
Right. And they've internalized
different responses. And so they're both trying to
(10:23):
fix those responses for that that child.
But I mean, we don't know how. None of us know how.
We don't know how to do that naturally.
That's where the next part of our conversation is going to go,
to tell the truth. How do you find out how you
know, how do you figure out whatto do?
You know, the, you know, parents, when I talk to parents
(10:45):
as a psychologist, you know, they're bringing their child in
to see me. And it's because they've tried
everything they know and they'vegotten advice from other people,
you know, things like that. And it's not working.
So they're coming to somebody like me saying, OK, what do I
do? And they're very afraid I'm
(11:07):
going to turn to them and go, oh, you're really messing up
with your children. You know, obviously I'm never
going to say that to it to parents, but that's what they're
afraid of. So I talk about it in terms of
we'll do a mutual exploration, like I said, but also what I'm
going to be doing with you is tweaking your parenting skills.
You already have, you know it is.
(11:28):
And you know, I'm going to fine tune some things.
It's, it's a way of approaching it to sort of empower them to
say, OK, you can make a difference.
And I tell them, you know me as the, as a treating therapist.
I am not the agent of change. You are, I am temporary.
You know, I, I see your child once a week, once every couple
(11:51):
weeks. It's not going to make the
difference. I never see children without
seeing their parents because they are really the agents of
change and that's where the change has to be.
That's why I'm not I consider myself a family therapist rather
than just a child therapist of an adult.
It's a totally different animal doing work with children and
families than it is doing work with adults.
(12:11):
It just is there's so much more to consider.
I guess I should go through thatthese so that you can understand
what I mean. I get you.
The part about emptying out and filling out OK.
When parents, they make certain assumptions about their
children, and I call them the assumptions of emotionality.
And this is what I talk about ina book that I'm trying to get
(12:32):
published even as we speak. And these assumptions are
developmental in nature. And they go like this.
You know, they start with the earliest one.
And the first assumption that parents make up their children
is that the child experiences their emotions well.
This is a pretty safe assumptionto make.
Children know when they're mad, when they're sad, etcetera.
(12:55):
So that one's OK. And it's a very good thing that
that is the case, because it's only in the situations of early
serious abuse and neglect that the child will actually divorce
themselves from their emotions. In all, in 40 years of practice,
I've only seen two children likethis, and it was scary.
(13:16):
Why these children could not play?
Children's approach to reality is through play and they buffer
reality through fantasy. They play it being mommy, they
play it being daddy. They, you know, but they're
obviously they can't handle the rigors of adult stresses,
etcetera. So they do it through play.
Child who can't play has been impinged upon so greatly that
(13:37):
they won't experience their emotions.
And it's so rare. And it's a very good thing it is
rare because who makes film describing to you is Hannibal to
cannibal somebody who could do something horrific and feel
nothing? Thank goodness that's a very
rare thing. And that and obviously, as a
psychologist and private practice for parents who are
concerned, that's not what I'm going to say very often.
(14:00):
But the next one up the developmental ladder, OK, The
child experiences their emotions.
Can they tolerate the intensity of their emotions?
Now that's an assumption you cannot make young children.
Are you a parent, Chair? I'm not sure.
Are you a? Parent I am.
Yep, it'd be. I think it'd be kind of weird to
do a podcast about being dead, not being dead so well.
(14:21):
That's true. Excuse me, that's true.
It's weird too, because it's, it's like I'm looking, I look at
like guests and things like thatand I'm like, well, I want, I
want people to relate. And I have like, I found myself
starting to have a hard time where it's like, well, I don't
know if, if it's going to resonate as well, like this is
going to sound really wrong Two,but I've said other stuff on the
(14:45):
podcast that will probably get me cancelled way faster than
this will. But like women who are like
experts on men. It's like, well, yeah, you you
could, you could very well be anexpert on men.
But I believe the men I'm I'm talking to in, in general, just
my reaction to hearing that. It's like, oh, I'm going to turn
this off and go to the next podcast like immediately because
(15:05):
I want to hear a man who's an expert about men talking to men
about men. You know, I don't really want to
hear that coming from a woman because then I feel like there's
some implicit bias and things like that there.
And so it's but yeah, no, I'm a dad.
I have two young children. I became a dad when I was super
young, so. Well, I'm a parent too,
obviously, yes. I couldn't do the work that I do
(15:28):
without you. So I'm like strong.
Obviously I'm an older man then you are.
I mean, how old are your children?
My children are 7 and 4. Well, it is so usually be
applicable to you and as a young, you know, father, I'm
going to continue with these assumptions, if I may, the next
one of the developmental letter.As I said, the child has their
(15:50):
emotions. Can they tolerate the intensity
of them? Now you're a parent of being
children. You know, children experience
their emotions very intensely. They can be intensely gleeful
about the little toy that you give them or throw a temper
tantrum that can happen within 5minutes of one another.
I mean, you know, it's it's and children can't tolerate how
(16:12):
intense their emotions are. And I can explain to you why
they can't. As an adult, we have a wealth of
experience where we can take an,you know, what's going on right
now and say, OK, relating it to what I already have been
through, this is better than this and worse than that and
this is how I handled it the last time, etcetera.
(16:32):
Children don't have that wealth of experience.
They can't relate to something previously and so they
experienced these things in their original intensity.
And so I've had like a three-year old in my office and
I'd ask him a question. I don't give him the question,
which I remember this little girl would go like this.
She could not tolerate hearing even the question that I was
(16:55):
asking because it brought back the intensity of her emotions.
So one of the goals, obviously, in being a soothing presence is
how do you help a child to be able to deal with the intensity
of their emotions? Because if they're overwhelmed,
they're going to shut down and they're not going to talk to
you. So let's go up that ladder a
little further. They have their emotions.
They can tolerate the intensity of the emotions.
(17:18):
Do they have the emotional language to express it verbally?
Now, a lot of parents make an assumption about that.
My child is a very bright child.Ergo, the silent assumption is
if they have a good emotional language.
No, it's a totally different skill.
It's how the parents help the child to develop an emotional
language. And actually one of the things
(17:38):
that I talk about in in the bookis not just develop an emotional
language, but develop an emotional language.
That's where the words have a common meaning between the
parent and the child. That's a little different.
Parents typically assume that the word, well, OK, that my
child is mad. I know what mad feels like.
Well, they may be correct that the child feels it the same way,
(18:00):
but they won't explain it the same way.
And the idea is how to be communicated.
They need to find words that thechild would use to describe
their anger for us. I'll give you some examples.
I have one boy who would talk tome about being angry at her, at
his mom. And I say, OK, you know, if we
(18:20):
had to find a word for how mad you are.
Oh, she makes me volcano man. I thought that was a great one.
I always remembered that one. Volcano man.
You know, with little children, they'll instead of using words,
they'll. How mad does it make you?
This mad, this mad this and this, you know, spread their
hands up. And it's amazing to me that
little children can actually touch their hands behind their
(18:42):
back. I think would break our scapular
if we try to touch probably, youknow, volcano mad.
Yeah. You as big as the universe.
Sad Doctor Marcus, you know, andyou know, with this boy with a
volcano mad. OK, that was as mad as he gets
it. So I said, what makes you only a
little mad? Well, like my mom makes me eat
my peas, OK, I don't like peas. So from then on, what I would
(19:08):
say, OK, he'd bring up somethingthat maybe mad and I'd say, OK,
decide volcano mad or eat your peas mad.
And he'd smiled at this big because I was relating it to his
words, not mine. So what parents typically do is,
oh, you're angry. This is, they'll go into their
own experience and tell them howthey handled it, like Miss
Rila's company, and just do it this way and you won't be mad
(19:30):
anymore. No, that doesn't work.
I wish it did. It would make my job, your job,
a lot easier. But you know, it doesn't work.
Parents will explain that to their children.
No, just do this and you'll feel, well, better a child
because they're a child. You know, as an adult, if you
tried to talk to somebody about what was troubling you and they
went into that, he'd probably say, just hear me out, You know,
(19:54):
But a child isn't going to say that they're you're big and
they're little. They're just going, uh huh.
And you think you've got it nailed until the next thing
happens that's similar. And the child's just as upset as
they were. I thought we talked about this.
No, not really. You talked at them and they got
quiet. OK, So that's how do the parents
need to learn how to develop a common emotional language for
(20:16):
their children? The last one, the last
assumption. The child has their emotions,
inhaled it to the tolerate the intensity, and they have a
language. The last one's big with
teenagers. Is it safe for me to tell my
parent how I feel? Now that one is based on the
history the child has with the parent and trying to express
(20:37):
themselves. You're shaking and you know
exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sure you see a lot of this.
And so if any of those assumptions proved to be false,
the child's not going to communicate with you.
They'll say, I don't know. Or they'll change the subject.
Sometimes they'll get mad at you, even asking them to put you
on the defensive. So you get off the topic.
(20:59):
You know, there's all kinds of ways children can.
The little girl who put her hands over her ears.
I mean, you know, there's all kinds of ways they'll defend
themselves. Denial.
You spilled the milk. I saw you.
No, I didn't. You know, simple primitive
defenses. The adult version of all this is
what we call repression. We know something's bothering
(21:21):
us, but we don't want to talk about it.
It's not safe to talk about it. You know, You see what I'm
getting at. Yeah, no, I I know exactly what
you're getting at here. You know, an easy way to talk
about that is just like what's what's your track record, right?
What's your what's your track record that you have with your
kids like to them and both ways.What's that two way track
record? Is it a track record that, that
(21:42):
suggests that, that you're, thatyou're open to the conversation,
that you'll listen, that you'll be supportive, or is the track
record that you'll be avoiding that you'll be shutting them
down, that you'll be, you know, unsupportive?
Like what, what's your track record with them and vice versa
to make them want to come to youbecause you know, they, they,
(22:03):
they ultimately they want to, but they, they'll find another
way. They'll find someone else to to
do it if they feel like they don't need to tell you kind of
thing. Like you'll be the last option.
You're like, oh, well, I got no one else.
And that's where, you know, the the trouble comes in.
And that's where other people can get to your children before
you have a greater influence than you can as a parent, which
(22:25):
is which is not great. But I mean, ultimately, at the
end of the day, that was becauseof your own shortcomings that
you you have to, you know, admitand own up to.
That's a really good point, but it, it breaks down into two
areas. And again, they're developmental
in nature, you know, with young children, they want to be able
to communicate with you. Do they have the language?
(22:48):
Do they they feel that you listen?
And ironically, there's ways that parents can make it unsafe
for their children to talk to them that are very subtle
sometimes for it, you know, there's obvious ones.
If the parent gets angry and defensive, if the child tries to
talk, then the child will shut down.
Anybody would sometimes parents try to divert their child.
Let's not talk about that. Let's, you know, go watch a
(23:09):
movie or whatever. Sometimes they'll make fun of it
or make light of it, although give them a platitude.
Well, everything, you know, life's hard or something like
that. The one that really surprises
people, Jay, is the one where I tell parents as a child
psychologist, family psychologist, I really wish I
(23:29):
could get rid of the term, the parenting term, make feel
better. When you try to make your child
feel better, what do you typically do?
It's what some of the things that we're talking about, you
know, and it wouldn't I tell parents, if somebody did that
with you, try to divert, you just say, hey, don't worry about
(23:51):
it or, you know, whatever, give you a platitude, would that make
you feel any better? And of course, they say no, but
we do it with our children all the time.
And in the name of trying to make them feel better, what they
really need, and this is the topic that we're getting into
now, is how do we empty out a child?
(24:12):
How do we make them feel safe? How do we make develop a
language with them? How do we deal with their
intensities so they can deal with their intensity?
You know, all these things go into this emptying out process.
And in order to explain that, I have to explain the first term,
which is being filled up, right?Obviously you can empty out
(24:33):
something. What's filling them up?
That's the obvious thing, you know, the logical thing to talk
about. Well, what happened?
Well, this is how I explained it, and I'll explain it here
too. We all have a emotional space
within us. You know, we always point to our
chest, our heart when we talk about our emotions.
But obviously it's a psychological space in our
(24:56):
brain, you know, emotional associations.
And this space gets filled up with intense emotion.
Could be anxiety, It could be stress in little children, like
I said earlier, it could be intense Glee.
It's the intensity of the emotion that fills us up.
Now, what I'm trying to explain here is what happens when we get
filled up. Well, it's uncomfortable.
(25:17):
You know, we know when we're filled up as adults because we
have words to describe the phrases that describe it.
Like I've had it up to here, thestraw that broke the camel's
back. You know, there's a number of
them. We know we're aware when we're
filled up as adults. Children are aware too.
But as adults, you know, what dowe do?
(25:39):
Well, we focus inwardly and try to cope with how our intense
emotions, they, they feel intense.
Sometimes we feel that chaotic or like we don't control all of
our emotions. You know, it certainly that can
be scary. So we try to deal with them.
How do we do that? We, there's a hundred different
ways we can journal, we can get it off our chest with somebody
else. We can, you know, go watch TV
(26:01):
and get our mind off and go for a run.
You know what I mean? There's all kinds of things we
do to relieve the intensity of our emotions.
So the point I'm trying to make is when somebody's filled up,
they are focused inwardly. They try to cope with their own.
So by definition, they're not focused outwardly on what people
are saying to them. The best example I can give you,
(26:21):
at least the most graphic example that I can give you,
Jay, is if you've ever seen somebody in a rage, maybe you've
heard the term a blinding rage. Have you ever heard that term a
blinding rage? Yeah, I have.
OK, that's true. When somebody is so filled up
with anger, they're pretty much blind to anything that's that's
(26:42):
going on around them. You can give them most logical
explanation for why they shouldn't feel the way it is, or
it's not that bad and they're not going to hear it.
They'll hear that 5% that somehow supports their rage or
somehow your tone of voice that supports their rage.
And the person who's trying to be logical, explained things,
(27:04):
scratches their heads and say, what's going on here?
I can't talk to you. And now we've got a wall
developing between parents, for instance.
I can't talk to you. They don't understand it.
You know what, at first, if a person is going to actually hear
what they have to say, they haveto be emptied out first.
And that's a skill that we're going to talk about right now.
A lot of it is familiar, you know, active listening, you
(27:26):
know, Thomas Gordon from way back in the 60s and 70s, Sure,
you know, but there's a lot moreto it than that.
It gets back into the soothing presence.
Your state of mind is very important when you're trying to
empty out somebody, especially children.
Children are exquisitely aware of how their parents feel.
You can pick up an infant and ifyou're a tense, they will cry.
(27:47):
Children are, you know, they react to how you feel.
So you've got to be in a good place to do this, which again,
we get into the soothing presence and a lifestyle.
And you know, it's very difficult these days to to not
be impinged upon by the environment, let's say, put it
that way and feel stressful, butthat's what's necessary.
(28:10):
So when you empty out somebody that's that's a child, pursue
the child and it really depends on their age.
Like for instance, with an infant, your words aren't going
to mean much. You're going to hold them,
include to them and things like that and that's going to soothe
them the warmth of your body. As they get older, you start to
(28:30):
do it with words and your tone of voice and your body language.
Basically, you know, child can be upset.
I'm still here for you, I'm OK. The idea is that if you're OK,
your child can sort of borrow your canis so you're not getting
defensive. And you know, the hardest part
is when the child's saying you did this and you did that.
(28:51):
And but what you want to do is defend yourself, which is it's
not going to be helpful. It's too logical.
And I'm going to explain that right now.
Why? It's too logical when you empty
out somebody by mirroring back what they say.
And when I mean a mirror, I meanexactly a mirror.
You don't sum up, you don't giveyour own spin.
You can repeat their words to them so they know that and you
(29:14):
keep body confidence so they know they're really listening.
They're really listening when you do that in a soothing way,
in a calm way, you know, child feels like you're really
listening to them and you're taking them seriously.
And that is the basis of most oftherapy.
To tell your truth. When a person feels like they're
truly listened to and taken seriously, that gives them the
(29:36):
hope that things can be better. That's part of the motivation
for for following through in therapy.
It's the same way with what we're talking about.
So the thing that your parents and actually spouses or just any
emotional relationship needs to understand that when you empty
out somebody by being a good mirror and, and, and validating
(30:01):
how they feel, even if you don'tunderstand why they feel the way
they do, phrases like based on how you see it, no wonder you
feel the way you do, but you're not exactly agreeing with them,
but you know, they, they feel like you're honoring A
perception. But the thing I understand is
it's actually 3 levels of emotionality that needs to be
empty down, not one. Most of us try to stay on the
(30:24):
what I call the here and now level, which is the obvious
level. I use a simple example to
explain this. I'll give it, OK, you need to
take out the garbage. Now we have a lot of words to
describe logically why you should take out the garbage.
It's treating the smell. It's your chore, you know, easy.
OK. The next level, deeper level and
(30:48):
we have more of the intensity ofthe reaction comes in.
It's the history level. This is the sixth time I've
asked you to take out the guard and you haven't done it.
Now obviously the sixth time theperson's reaction is going to be
more intense. But if you are an outsider
looking in and you didn't know the history, you've looked at
(31:10):
that person and go, wait a minute, what's the big deal?
So they didn't take out the deepest level is what I call the
tapped into level. The fact that you didn't take
out the garbage when I asked you6 times already means that you
don't listen to me. I hate when people don't listen
to me. My parents didn't listen to me
and I hated that, you know? And this one can go anywhere.
(31:32):
All right, person's emotional history.
Well, people try to keep arguinglogically on level 1 here and
now, and it's just infuriates topeople because they're not
getting to the deeper levels. You know, when you're getting
emptying out the person who's listening, the soothing presence
that knows they're emptying out on the history level when the
(31:55):
person starts talking like it, you always do this, so you never
do that. Now they're referring to
previous events. Now you can even elicit that as
a soothing presence. Have I done that before?
Has that happened before? What was it like then?
You know, the deepest level is what I've just described hate
when my parents did this. Well, tell me about that.
(32:18):
Well, they did it this and they did it this and then my aunt did
this. And you know, this one can go
anywhere. And it's very important to get
to that because sometimes, for instance, what a child is
reacting to may not be what you think they're reacting to.
And that's why it's necessary togo to this level because, for
instance, I had a child who was very upset and sad because, you
(32:40):
know, he was being teased on thebus and the parents said, well,
you know, they'll eventually stop and stuff like that and all
this kind of stuff. But what he was really upset
about was that his best friend was sitting next to him and his
best friend joined in with the tease.
That was the thing that was so hard for him.
But if the parents, you know, the parents were just jumping in
too early and giving him a solution.
(33:01):
But he was really, so he was sadthat his best friend was doing
this. You know, that was his what he
was really reacting to. So you know that this is a skill
and it takes a presence of mind to do it.
By the end of the emptying out process, when the parent can
murder back to the child, this is what happened.
(33:22):
I understand this is what it waslike.
You know, I understand why you were so upset about it.
You know, what can we do about this?
And notice the we, it's a merger.
I don't know what are you going to do about it, but what are you
going to do about that time the child is emptied out and how
(33:42):
they can actually speak about a possible solution.
You can go back to the logical, constructive part.
Parents skipped the emptying outpart and the child's not ready
to hear it. Same thing with the spouse.
You know, men's from Mars, womenfrom Venus.
I don't want to get into stereotypes, but men do seem to
have a tendency to want to fix things.
(34:03):
So they'll jump and say, let's do this, making that silent
assumption that if we just do this, my spouse will feel all
better. Some work that way.
I wish it did. If you and I would be unemployed
if it worked that way, you know,it'd be so simple to do this
type of thing. But it's not simple.
And this is the creative part ofit.
Like I said, everybody's different.
(34:24):
Every child is different and allour experiences are different.
We relate to our world through our experiences, especially our
emotional experiences, and they're not the same.
Helping people to find the wordsfor what, for these types of
things is really the key. You know, I feel this way and I
(34:45):
don't know why. Well, let's try to do this
mutual exploration. We'll find the words for it.
And once they understand what's really going on, then what can
we do to make it any good? With children, where do you
start? You know, with young children,
you have to develop the emotional language first.
You got to help them with their intensity first.
You got to make it safe for them, which is why adult work
(35:09):
and child work is vastly different, you know, because you
have to consider child development.
You're also realizing that you're not the agent of change,
it's the parents. And the parents environment has
an impact. You know, all the things that
I've just mentioned, you know, it's a big lump.
Guess you'd say, you know, yeah,it's just a lot that has to, you
(35:30):
know, you have to take sort of take, pick all ends and go
toward the middle, you know, which is why I never see
children without seeing their parents except in the cases of
like abuse or something like that sometimes, you know, that's
the exception to the rule. Yeah.
So that's the emptying out that,you know, the filled up
(35:52):
phenomenon, if you will, the emptying out part, the
regressive part, the, you know, the internalization part.
All of this gets pretty complicated, but it's also very
creative, you know? Yeah, no, I think you did a
really a great job there breaking it all down.
And you know, even though it is a very, it can seem like a very
(36:14):
complex thing here. It it's rather simple.
Like you said, you know, you go back to your assumptions, you
eliminate your assumptions and then you, you know, you start or
not eliminate them, but you start working through those
assumptions, right. You can you take a step back and
say are they act? Do do we actually have a
language here? What is actually going on?
And we start to address those assumptions instead of just
leaving them as assumption. Because if you just leave them
(36:36):
as assumptions, thinking, you know, when you don't know, then
you're going to be no better forit.
And nobody, when someone's readyto calm down, they're ready to
calm down. But when someone's ready to calm
down, they'll be ready to calm down.
But not before that yet. Be ready.
You have to be like you're saying here, emptied out of all
those other emotions and all those other, you know, feelings
and that body stress and that energy to be able to think
(37:00):
logically because your brain's in a frenzy, you know, you're
not able to think logically. That's just system values, but
you're right. Yeah, yeah.
And especially for our kids, like their space is so much
smaller, right? So, and there's, if there's
chaos going on in their space, their space is significantly
smaller than ours. So they don't have the capacity
(37:20):
for it. And so you try to throw logic
into that equation, then it's just going to, it's going to
blow everything up even more because they just don't have the
room for it. They don't have the capacity for
that, at least not until they'reemptied out a little bit.
No, they have to MPA out a lot. That's the thing, you know, you
really got to empty them out because you cut in too quickly
(37:41):
or sum up too quickly and all that kind of thing.
They're not done, you know? And so this is important because
there's so many things that you can really help a child to
mature emotionally. If you have, if you can take on
the role of the soothing presence and the child feel safe
to talk to you about peer pressure, you can help the child
(38:04):
with peer pressure. If they, you know, children who
do not have a soothing presence and finally give up on their
parents as somebody they can talk to, who do they turn to?
Especially teens, who do they turn to?
They turn to, yeah, other teens,which is the worst thing.
Or they turn to more than likelysomeone that you're not going to
(38:24):
agree with that will counteract your personal family values that
will go against how you've been trying to raise them for the
last who knows how many years. the OR they'll turn to doctor,
doctor Internet, doctor TikTok and doctor Google and all these
things. And yeah, and they'll be,
(38:45):
they'll be captured in essence, right, you know?
Typically, they'll turn to otherteenagers who earn the same boat
they're in. They can't talk to their parents
either. And, you know, you put enough of
them together. You know, the adolescent brain
does not make really good decisions, as we know.
And So what you have is the beginning of what could turn
(39:09):
into a gang, you know, You just don't want that, you know?
And so it's very important. And you know, the ironic part,
I'll tell you the ironic part ismothers will come in to me with
their daughter who is very upsetand acting out.
And the mother will say to me, Idon't understand it.
(39:29):
We are so close. We're more like sisters and
mother and daughter. And I know what the problem is,
right? Obey.
She doesn't need a sister, she needs a mother, You know what I
mean? And then we get all back into
what I just said, you know, so there's a lot of subtlety to
some of these things. And you're right.
They'll turn to people that you don't approve of or they're, you
know, one of the good things about being the shooting
(39:50):
president is you help the child to assert their own values.
And that's what helps them to todeal with the peer pressure.
You can turn to them. Their best friend did something
dumb. They went to a party, got drunk
and got in a car accident, you know, or something.
And if you, if you lecture that your child, your teenager about,
oh, your friend was bad, I don'tthink you should hang out with
(40:10):
this person. They're going to defend their
friend. First of all, telling a teenager
what they should you shouldn't do.
Teenager perceives that as you're treating them like a
child and they're not going to tolerate it because they want to
be seen as growing up. So you know, they're going to
fight you and they're going to fight you.
You know, this is my best friend.
But rather if you if you have this relationship, you say, what
(40:33):
do you make of what your friend did?
If a child needs to feel safe enough, this teenager, excuse
me? Well, I think it was kind of
dumb. What do you mean it was dumb?
Well, you know, this, you know, and they real, you know, because
they got into trouble, all that kind of thing.
OK, How would you have done it differently?
You see, now they're going to express their own values.
(40:55):
Well, I don't think I would havedone it that way.
I don't think I would have gone to the party.
I think I would have when Bobby offered, you know, my friend,
you know, a joint. I don't think I would have done
that, you know, why not? You see?
Well, I don't think that's a good idea.
How come? And here's a here's a here's a
rub here. You know, Shakespeare would say
the child can teenager and go through that with you.
(41:18):
I see. Well, what how would you have
done there? Oh, I wouldn't have gone to the
party or I would have said no. The fact that you can think it
through that way really shows methat you're growing up and
that's exactly how a teenager wants to be seen.
Yeah, they want to. They want to be, they want to
have a conversation, right? They don't want to be lectured.
They want to have that conversation with you and they
(41:38):
want to be heard in that conversation.
They they did, they insist on having some say.
Of course they'd like that finalsay, but they can't.
But you know, yeah, that's that's the blurry line.
But most teenagers will really appreciate being seen as growing
up. And it's also in the meta
message is this is how you're grown up, not by smoking dope,
not by getting drunk. This is how you this is what it
(42:02):
means to be mature. This is very important,
especially the emotional language part.
I'll tell you why. If, if a grown, you know, a
temper tantrum in a 5 year old, we expect they don't have the
language. You know, they, they set their
intense, we can handle them. A 5 year old having a, a 17 year
(42:24):
old having a tantrum because they don't have the language.
That's could be jail time. I mean, somewhere in between,
they got to learn how to use their words, quote UN quote.
I, I saw two brothers, 9:00 and 7:00 and they were in my waiting
room and I was talking to mom for a few minutes and we heard a
scuffle, nothing big. But about a minute later we hear
(42:47):
a scream. So we go out there waiting room
and there's the nine year old holding his arm like this in
tears, crying. And the seven-year old's looking
like, uh oh, I'm in big trouble.And mom, I'm observing this
because I'm the psychologist, ofcourse.
And I'm, you know, I'm observingthis.
Mom says what happened? The 9 year old says he bit me
(43:11):
and he takes down his arm and his teeth marks on his arm and
his brother really bit him and the ma.
I felt so bad for the mom here. Here she is in the
psychologist's office and her kids are biting one another.
She's mortified. And she turned to the younger
one. She said I told you to use your
words and a little. The seven-year old turned and
said, mom, I don't know how. And I said, mom, that's where we
(43:33):
need to go. That's what we need to work at.
You know, it was just a very dramatic example of what we're
talking about, those assumptionsthat the Arab Smith use your
words as a skill, you know, a grown up.
I had a sort of teenager who wasdefinitely afraid of his
father's. His father was an angry man.
You know, he would lash out. One time he came in and he was
(43:55):
really happy. But what happened?
Well, I don't have to worry about my dad.
What happened? Well, his dad had a business at
home and his customers would come and park on the street and
his neighbor across the way wentup to the day and say, Hey,
your, your, your clients are taking up all our pocket spaces.
(44:17):
And they got into a row and dad punched this guy.
The guy fell back, hit the back of his head on the curb and was
I had three young kids. Dad went to jail for 15 years
and the teenager felt relieved because he didn't have to deal
with his angry dad. I mean, again, a very dramatic
(44:39):
example of, of, of how importantit is to develop an emotional
language to, to be able to handle intensity.
It doesn't just happen because you're smart.
You know, it doesn't just happenbecause you grow up.
It's a skill that requires parents or, you know, if the
parents are not good at it, you know, you mentioned they may
(45:01):
turn to other adults and some ofthose adults are not the good
people. Both young children have a have
a capacity called elasticity. In other words, if they can't
get their emotional needs met from one source, they can
transfer to another source. Uncle Billy, you know what I
mean? You know, which is a good thing
because sometimes parents are are not capable or not
(45:22):
available. The problem comes with in with
that is when there's a like a step parent and that step parent
becomes more the emotional parent than the original parent.
That's not your dad. I'm your dad.
Well, children with elasticity have no problem having two dads,
but they also want to make sure their parents are OK so they can
(45:43):
be OK. So they'll have to take a side.
So they're not going to like stepdad.
Do you know what I mean? Because dad doesn't like stepdad
and he wants to make dad happy and because if he that's happy
with him, then he can be happy with himself.
It's all part of self esteem. So, you know, it's like, OK, so
I have to talk to, you know, blended families about things
like that. Yeah, that's a whole nother.
(46:06):
That's a whole nother. Yep.
Grab a hold of Junction all together.
Well, there's a chapter in the book called on high Conflict
families because it's stuff likethis.
Divided loyalty, parent alienation, all those things I'm
sure that you're familiar with. Yeah, very.
I'd really like to to get us wrapped up here for time's sake,
to respect your time and a little bit of just to kind of
(46:29):
lighten up the conversation a little bit right here at the end
of the podcast. My listeners love entering the
Dad Zone. So if you will, I'll just enter
the Dad Zone together, which is 3 quick questions or actually 4
technically quick questions thatI'll ask you to end the podcast.
And these are some that I didn'tsend over to you with the
intention of having some fun with them.
I. Also want to plug my website in
my book though remember that. We'll plug that at the event at
(46:51):
the very end, I. Appreciate that at.
The very end here. So first question here in the
Dad Zone, you're hosting a dinner party.
You're inviting three people, dead or alive.
Who are you inviting? Let me think about that for a
second. All right?
I'd invite my father, who passedaway early, OK?
Because I miss him, my best friend Norb, who's an amazing
(47:12):
musician and we are both psychologists and we have a lot
in common, but a lot difference.He's creative in a Jungian way
and I'm creative in a more psychodynamic.
But she's very wise, you know? What is your guilty pleasure?
Oh, go ahead. No, my wife is very wise and and
(47:34):
she's also very smart. I mean, I'm not dumb, but she's
smarter than I am. What can I tell you?
And the part that's hard about that is that you're married,
obviously, is that she's usuallyright.
And I don't want her to always be right.
You know, sometimes I'd like to be right, but all right.
So those are the three people that I would.
Love it. What is your guilty pleasure
(47:54):
food? Food.
Yep, guilty pleasure. Guilty pleasure food.
Why I have to let you know I just lost 53 lbs.
Congratulations. Yeah, yeah, Mixture of
pickleball, which I play religiously, and the Ozempic,
those shots that you take that help you lose weight, those
shots really work. What can I tell you?
But anyway, my guilty pleasure food, that would have to be ice
(48:18):
cream, chocolate fudge, ice cream.
I can eat that by the gallon. I could.
So when I was in my 20s, I'd geta thing of a gallon of Breyer's
Vanilla Fudge ice cream, and I was that hot thing down.
Of course, it was a lot cheaper back then too.
(48:38):
Right. Yeah, yeah.
And then the second to last question here in the dad zone,
does pineapple go on pizza? No.
No. Great, perfect answer.
And then very, very last, very last.
Question. No, it's just a, it's a fun
question that we've had on the podcast for a long, long, long
time. What is 1 piece of advice that
(49:00):
you would offer to a new dad ages 18 to 22 that's just
starting out? His parent or his fatherhood
journey. So just one piece of advice for
him. OK.
There are three things you're trying to accomplish at that
age, all right? 1 is what am I going to do,
where am I going to do it, and who am I going to do it with?
All right. Those three are pressing
(49:23):
questions that you really need to work at in order to be OK
yourself. All right, so finding a decent
job or getting the training for a decent job so that you don't
come, you know, doing something you don't like to do, you know
where hopefully some place you get support, you know what I'm
saying? With a family or friends,
(49:45):
whatever it means. A lot of these companies now
move people around to move up the the the ladder.
And I've seen families break up because they have no support in
Houston. You know what I mean?
You know, like that. And the third is, you know who
you going to do it with? Well, that's that's a matter of
finding that person you can makea haven with.
(50:06):
And what I mean by that is the person you usually end up with
is a person that somehow together you're better than the
sum of your parts. You you complement each other,
not with the E. You know, that is that somehow
this person I can, I can trust to really be there for me
emotionally and physically because that's the basis I can
(50:28):
predict this person because that's the basis of trust.
When you can predict somebody's trust them, it's also the basis
of a child security. Being able to trust your spouse
will also help your children to be able to trust the two of you.
That's where it ties in. So those are the three things
that I would as objectives for people, young, young parents,
(50:50):
young young people. Love that.
So David, this has been a great conversation, very insightful.
We're pretty deep on some topics.
So I, I enjoy that myself. The best way for people to
connect to you is that going to be parentrx.org.
That's my website. That's exactly right.
It's called Parent RX, like Parent Prescription and the
(51:10):
subtitle Prescriptive Wisdom, Tips and Strategies for
Communication with Your Child. OK, that'll be the title of the
book. They can reach me.
And you know, these podcasts, including this one, will be
listed on my website. So our listeners go to
parentrx.org, that's PARENTR x.org to explore more Doctor
(51:31):
Marcus's work insight and accesshis parenting resources that can
make a real difference in your home, including his his
forthcoming bug here. And with that, make sure you go
and give your kid a hug. Remember, we're not trying to be
perfect parents. We're just showing up with
presidents, honesty and love. Keep going forward, keep moving
forward. You're doing a great job.
Until next time, we'll talk to you right here on the Young Dad
Podcast. Thank you.
And welcome back to the Young Dad Podcast.
Whether you're outside grilling,changing dirty diapers, coaching
Little League, outside mowing the lawn, whatever you're at,
whatever you're doing, thanks for tuning in and thanks for
taking a moment to be with us. I'm your host, Jay, and super
excited to be with you as always.
Today's guest is Doctor David Marcus, a clinical psychologist
with over 40 years of experiencehelping families build stronger
(00:31):
emotional connections even in the middle of stress, conflict,
or chaos. He's here to talk about how we
can improve the way we talk to and listen to our children.
His strategies are practical, powerful and rooted in decades
of real world family support. So if you're ready for a great
conversation on how you can better connect with your kids,
talk to your kids, and of course, listen as well, this
podcast is for you. So make sure you grab a juice
(00:52):
box, grab a snack, and let's jump into it.
David, welcome to the show. Thank.
You thanks for having me, Jay of.
Course, super excited to have you.
So before we jump into all the meat and potatoes of the
conversation, can you kind of take us through what got you
into this field originally? Ironically, I'll start with
that. When I was an undergraduate at
the University of Pittsburgh in psychology, but I actually
(01:16):
avoided doing the clinical courses.
I was more interested in the research courses.
So I graduated from there with abachelor's in psychology and I
got a job doing research and believe it or not,
neuroendocrinology, which is effective hormones on the brain.
(01:39):
I did a three-year study that turned out to be very successful
that I presented at a conventionin New York.
I was very scared because I was only 24 years old, but I was our
first author on this fairly prestigious paper.
And then I decided, you know, I need more people contacting
(02:01):
this. I was working in a lab and I
said, oh, OK, let me see if I want to do more the clinical end
of psychology. And so I volunteered at the
state hospital near Philadelphia.
And from that work I went to work with a nation in
Philadelphia. And finally I decided this is
what I wanted to do. I wanted to work with kids and
adults, and I want to work with families.
(02:23):
And so I applied to Graduate School and went to the
University of Louisville for my PhD in clinical psychology.
And I found it very creative. All right, It's doing
psychotherapy. In depth psychotherapy with
families under stress is what I specialize in.
I find every person, every family is unique.
(02:45):
And so you need to be creative and never think that you really
know exactly what's going on because as soon as you do that,
you start getting formulaic. You need to meet each family
where they like, where they needto be.
So the creativity part of it is,is one of the things that's
really kept me going and also living with the knowledge that
(03:06):
you're never going to really, really know.
So you keep exploring. And that's what I say with the
people that I see. We're going to go on on mutual
exploration for the things that you're coming to me with because
most people come to me and say I'm doing this and I don't know
why I feel this way and I don't know why I should be doing this,
but I'm not. And I don't know why.
(03:28):
You know, these are the kind of questions I get.
So we have to basically find thewords for what's going on.
You know, how come they're doingthese things or not doing these
things or feeling how they are. And when you deal with families
under stress, you're dealing with a whole family system of
people. So I never see children without
seeing their parents. You know, I'm very aware that I
(03:51):
am not the agent of change. And I see a family under stress
that the parents are. And so I try to help them
develop what I call a soothing presence.
And what is a soothing presence?Well, in its simplest form,
soothing presence is somebody who is OK when you're not OK.
(04:12):
When we think about the people that we turn to when we're upset
or feeling something intensely, we've picked certain people,
friends or family, usually not many, but invariably the people
that we pick are people who are OK when we're not OK.
Well, the reason I use the term soothing presence rather than
(04:34):
soothing person is because in order to be that person who's OK
when say, when your children arenot OK, you need to have the
environment that supports you. And that's one of the things I
often have to talk to parents about is lifestyle.
For instance, there's a lot of stress beside stress on families
(04:56):
these days, you know, 2 income families, you know, the
finances, etcetera. And that can make it very
difficult to be a soothing presence for your children.
So we talk about that as well. There's a lot to that because
what we're talking about is whenpeople get very stressed, they
have a tendency to what's calledregress.
(05:18):
And what I mean by that is they regress to older ways of dealing
with things and with parents is typically how they were raised.
OK. One of the things that is
important to understand is something called
internalization. And what do I mean by that?
Internalization is almost like subliminal learning.
(05:40):
It's sort of we we learn things under a level of awareness.
A good example in a sociologicallevel would be prejudice.
It's not like somebody at the age of 17 tells you you're going
to start hating black people or age computer that you know,
because at that by that time you've had enough experience in
your own life to say and wait a minute, why would I do that?
(06:03):
You know, but at the age of fourand five and six, and you hear
the jokes or you see the reactions and things, it gets in
there. It gets in there.
And one of the things I was going to bring up that
internalization regression is because one of the things that
children pick up from their parents is how to react to
stress. OK.
(06:27):
So if your parents are understanding and they talk
things out, then OK, that's whatyou'll probably do as you grow
up too. And if you get stressed, that's
where you may regress to. But families that, for instance,
parent gets angry or even physical, you know, when they
(06:48):
get stressed, well then that child picks that up.
And this is one of the reasons why children who are abused and
when they grow up and they become parents, they'll swear
that they never do what happenedto them to their own children.
But under stress, especially under, under, under.
Excuse me, unanticipated stress that's causes the greatest
(07:08):
regression. Of course we're not expecting
it. And children are marvels at
giving us unanticipated stress. So they'll all of a sudden they
find themselves and they start to hit.
And this is how there's a legacyof abuse across generations.
So it's important for parents tolearn the skills of being a, how
to be a soothing presence, what that entails, but it also means
(07:31):
the environment and being very aware of where they may regress
to under stress now. Yeah.
No issue. OK.
No, no, no. If you have a question please or
a comment. Oh, no, I'll see the comment
because I, I was actually just having this conversation
yesterday because I, I don't really let it be known too often
(07:52):
on the podcast here, but I also work, well, actually I do pretty
often. I work in mental health and
behavioral health as well. And I was having a parent group
last night, a group of parents. And we were talking about just
this very thing because two of the parents in that, well, I
guess technically, yeah, three of the parents actually have a
(08:12):
have a child with autism. And we were talking about that,
that mirroring right there, right, about how they'll do
exactly what their parents will do when it comes to handling the
different emotional situations and talking about stress or
talking about just even empathy or how kind they are.
And then talking directly to a couple of the dads that were
(08:34):
there with the children with autism and one without.
It was like your, your boys are are more likely going to do
exactly what you do than what mom does.
Like you have an incredibly strong influence on your boys as
well. And we got really deep into that
conversation and it was really, it was really impactful.
But that was just kids across the board, like you're talking
(08:56):
about here to where they, the way that they learn is by
watching, right? They watch what we do as parents
and they learn what we're doing as parents and that's what
they're going to do as well. So how you handle things, even
if you, you know, don't lash outat people physically, if you're
lashing out at people verbally, that can get them the cue to,
(09:17):
OK, well, this is how dad handles it.
So that's how I'm going to handle it because this he if
he's doing it, it must be OK kind of thing because my dad's,
you know, my dad does everything, you know,
essentially, right. So dad does it, it's OK or mom
does it. That's OK for me to then do the
same thing. No, I that's exactly what I'm
speaking. No, where I'm extending it a
(09:39):
little bit, Jay, is the fact that even when you're grown,
these things are inside you. It's not what's just you're just
not reacting like when you're a child.
You see Dad react and you went the same way.
The child who grows up reacts the way dad did.
You see, and it's like this internalized thing.
It's almost subliminal. They may regret it later.
(10:01):
You know what I mean? You know, I try to make parents
aware that this is where they can go.
And often times the parents go into different places and
sometimes that leads to arguments about how to parent.
Yeah, because both parents come from a different place.
Right. And they've internalized
different responses. And so they're both trying to
(10:23):
fix those responses for that that child.
But I mean, we don't know how. None of us know how.
We don't know how to do that naturally.
That's where the next part of our conversation is going to go,
to tell the truth. How do you find out how you
know, how do you figure out whatto do?
You know, the, you know, parents, when I talk to parents
(10:45):
as a psychologist, you know, they're bringing their child in
to see me. And it's because they've tried
everything they know and they'vegotten advice from other people,
you know, things like that. And it's not working.
So they're coming to somebody like me saying, OK, what do I
do? And they're very afraid I'm
(11:07):
going to turn to them and go, oh, you're really messing up
with your children. You know, obviously I'm never
going to say that to it to parents, but that's what they're
afraid of. So I talk about it in terms of
we'll do a mutual exploration, like I said, but also what I'm
going to be doing with you is tweaking your parenting skills.
You already have, you know it is.
(11:28):
And you know, I'm going to fine tune some things.
It's, it's a way of approaching it to sort of empower them to
say, OK, you can make a difference.
And I tell them, you know me as the, as a treating therapist.
I am not the agent of change. You are, I am temporary.
You know, I, I see your child once a week, once every couple
(11:51):
weeks. It's not going to make the
difference. I never see children without
seeing their parents because they are really the agents of
change and that's where the change has to be.
That's why I'm not I consider myself a family therapist rather
than just a child therapist of an adult.
It's a totally different animal doing work with children and
families than it is doing work with adults.
(12:11):
It just is there's so much more to consider.
I guess I should go through thatthese so that you can understand
what I mean. I get you.
The part about emptying out and filling out OK.
When parents, they make certain assumptions about their
children, and I call them the assumptions of emotionality.
And this is what I talk about ina book that I'm trying to get
(12:32):
published even as we speak. And these assumptions are
developmental in nature. And they go like this.
You know, they start with the earliest one.
And the first assumption that parents make up their children
is that the child experiences their emotions well.
This is a pretty safe assumptionto make.
Children know when they're mad, when they're sad, etcetera.
(12:55):
So that one's OK. And it's a very good thing that
that is the case, because it's only in the situations of early
serious abuse and neglect that the child will actually divorce
themselves from their emotions. In all, in 40 years of practice,
I've only seen two children likethis, and it was scary.
(13:16):
Why these children could not play?
Children's approach to reality is through play and they buffer
reality through fantasy. They play it being mommy, they
play it being daddy. They, you know, but they're
obviously they can't handle the rigors of adult stresses,
etcetera. So they do it through play.
Child who can't play has been impinged upon so greatly that
(13:37):
they won't experience their emotions.
And it's so rare. And it's a very good thing it is
rare because who makes film describing to you is Hannibal to
cannibal somebody who could do something horrific and feel
nothing? Thank goodness that's a very
rare thing. And that and obviously, as a
psychologist and private practice for parents who are
concerned, that's not what I'm going to say very often.
(14:00):
But the next one up the developmental ladder, OK, The
child experiences their emotions.
Can they tolerate the intensity of their emotions?
Now that's an assumption you cannot make young children.
Are you a parent, Chair? I'm not sure.
Are you a? Parent I am.
Yep, it'd be. I think it'd be kind of weird to
do a podcast about being dead, not being dead so well.
(14:21):
That's true. Excuse me, that's true.
It's weird too, because it's, it's like I'm looking, I look at
like guests and things like thatand I'm like, well, I want, I
want people to relate. And I have like, I found myself
starting to have a hard time where it's like, well, I don't
know if, if it's going to resonate as well, like this is
going to sound really wrong Two,but I've said other stuff on the
(14:45):
podcast that will probably get me cancelled way faster than
this will. But like women who are like
experts on men. It's like, well, yeah, you you
could, you could very well be anexpert on men.
But I believe the men I'm I'm talking to in, in general, just
my reaction to hearing that. It's like, oh, I'm going to turn
this off and go to the next podcast like immediately because
(15:05):
I want to hear a man who's an expert about men talking to men
about men. You know, I don't really want to
hear that coming from a woman because then I feel like there's
some implicit bias and things like that there.
And so it's but yeah, no, I'm a dad.
I have two young children. I became a dad when I was super
young, so. Well, I'm a parent too,
obviously, yes. I couldn't do the work that I do
(15:28):
without you. So I'm like strong.
Obviously I'm an older man then you are.
I mean, how old are your children?
My children are 7 and 4. Well, it is so usually be
applicable to you and as a young, you know, father, I'm
going to continue with these assumptions, if I may, the next
one of the developmental letter.As I said, the child has their
(15:50):
emotions. Can they tolerate the intensity
of them? Now you're a parent of being
children. You know, children experience
their emotions very intensely. They can be intensely gleeful
about the little toy that you give them or throw a temper
tantrum that can happen within 5minutes of one another.
I mean, you know, it's it's and children can't tolerate how
(16:12):
intense their emotions are. And I can explain to you why
they can't. As an adult, we have a wealth of
experience where we can take an,you know, what's going on right
now and say, OK, relating it to what I already have been
through, this is better than this and worse than that and
this is how I handled it the last time, etcetera.
(16:32):
Children don't have that wealth of experience.
They can't relate to something previously and so they
experienced these things in their original intensity.
And so I've had like a three-year old in my office and
I'd ask him a question. I don't give him the question,
which I remember this little girl would go like this.
She could not tolerate hearing even the question that I was
(16:55):
asking because it brought back the intensity of her emotions.
So one of the goals, obviously, in being a soothing presence is
how do you help a child to be able to deal with the intensity
of their emotions? Because if they're overwhelmed,
they're going to shut down and they're not going to talk to
you. So let's go up that ladder a
little further. They have their emotions.
They can tolerate the intensity of the emotions.
(17:18):
Do they have the emotional language to express it verbally?
Now, a lot of parents make an assumption about that.
My child is a very bright child.Ergo, the silent assumption is
if they have a good emotional language.
No, it's a totally different skill.
It's how the parents help the child to develop an emotional
language. And actually one of the things
(17:38):
that I talk about in in the bookis not just develop an emotional
language, but develop an emotional language.
That's where the words have a common meaning between the
parent and the child. That's a little different.
Parents typically assume that the word, well, OK, that my
child is mad. I know what mad feels like.
Well, they may be correct that the child feels it the same way,
(18:00):
but they won't explain it the same way.
And the idea is how to be communicated.
They need to find words that thechild would use to describe
their anger for us. I'll give you some examples.
I have one boy who would talk tome about being angry at her, at
his mom. And I say, OK, you know, if we
(18:20):
had to find a word for how mad you are.
Oh, she makes me volcano man. I thought that was a great one.
I always remembered that one. Volcano man.
You know, with little children, they'll instead of using words,
they'll. How mad does it make you?
This mad, this mad this and this, you know, spread their
hands up. And it's amazing to me that
little children can actually touch their hands behind their
(18:42):
back. I think would break our scapular
if we try to touch probably, youknow, volcano mad.
Yeah. You as big as the universe.
Sad Doctor Marcus, you know, andyou know, with this boy with a
volcano mad. OK, that was as mad as he gets
it. So I said, what makes you only a
little mad? Well, like my mom makes me eat
my peas, OK, I don't like peas. So from then on, what I would
(19:08):
say, OK, he'd bring up somethingthat maybe mad and I'd say, OK,
decide volcano mad or eat your peas mad.
And he'd smiled at this big because I was relating it to his
words, not mine. So what parents typically do is,
oh, you're angry. This is, they'll go into their
own experience and tell them howthey handled it, like Miss
Rila's company, and just do it this way and you won't be mad
(19:30):
anymore. No, that doesn't work.
I wish it did. It would make my job, your job,
a lot easier. But you know, it doesn't work.
Parents will explain that to their children.
No, just do this and you'll feel, well, better a child
because they're a child. You know, as an adult, if you
tried to talk to somebody about what was troubling you and they
went into that, he'd probably say, just hear me out, You know,
(19:54):
But a child isn't going to say that they're you're big and
they're little. They're just going, uh huh.
And you think you've got it nailed until the next thing
happens that's similar. And the child's just as upset as
they were. I thought we talked about this.
No, not really. You talked at them and they got
quiet. OK, So that's how do the parents
need to learn how to develop a common emotional language for
(20:16):
their children? The last one, the last
assumption. The child has their emotions,
inhaled it to the tolerate the intensity, and they have a
language. The last one's big with
teenagers. Is it safe for me to tell my
parent how I feel? Now that one is based on the
history the child has with the parent and trying to express
(20:37):
themselves. You're shaking and you know
exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sure you see a lot of this.
And so if any of those assumptions proved to be false,
the child's not going to communicate with you.
They'll say, I don't know. Or they'll change the subject.
Sometimes they'll get mad at you, even asking them to put you
on the defensive. So you get off the topic.
(20:59):
You know, there's all kinds of ways children can.
The little girl who put her hands over her ears.
I mean, you know, there's all kinds of ways they'll defend
themselves. Denial.
You spilled the milk. I saw you.
No, I didn't. You know, simple primitive
defenses. The adult version of all this is
what we call repression. We know something's bothering
(21:21):
us, but we don't want to talk about it.
It's not safe to talk about it. You know, You see what I'm
getting at. Yeah, no, I I know exactly what
you're getting at here. You know, an easy way to talk
about that is just like what's what's your track record, right?
What's your what's your track record that you have with your
kids like to them and both ways.What's that two way track
record? Is it a track record that, that
(21:42):
suggests that, that you're, thatyou're open to the conversation,
that you'll listen, that you'll be supportive, or is the track
record that you'll be avoiding that you'll be shutting them
down, that you'll be, you know, unsupportive?
Like what, what's your track record with them and vice versa
to make them want to come to youbecause you know, they, they,
(22:03):
they ultimately they want to, but they, they'll find another
way. They'll find someone else to to
do it if they feel like they don't need to tell you kind of
thing. Like you'll be the last option.
You're like, oh, well, I got no one else.
And that's where, you know, the the trouble comes in.
And that's where other people can get to your children before
you have a greater influence than you can as a parent, which
(22:25):
is which is not great. But I mean, ultimately, at the
end of the day, that was becauseof your own shortcomings that
you you have to, you know, admitand own up to.
That's a really good point, but it, it breaks down into two
areas. And again, they're developmental
in nature, you know, with young children, they want to be able
to communicate with you. Do they have the language?
(22:48):
Do they they feel that you listen?
And ironically, there's ways that parents can make it unsafe
for their children to talk to them that are very subtle
sometimes for it, you know, there's obvious ones.
If the parent gets angry and defensive, if the child tries to
talk, then the child will shut down.
Anybody would sometimes parents try to divert their child.
Let's not talk about that. Let's, you know, go watch a
(23:09):
movie or whatever. Sometimes they'll make fun of it
or make light of it, although give them a platitude.
Well, everything, you know, life's hard or something like
that. The one that really surprises
people, Jay, is the one where I tell parents as a child
psychologist, family psychologist, I really wish I
(23:29):
could get rid of the term, the parenting term, make feel
better. When you try to make your child
feel better, what do you typically do?
It's what some of the things that we're talking about, you
know, and it wouldn't I tell parents, if somebody did that
with you, try to divert, you just say, hey, don't worry about
(23:51):
it or, you know, whatever, give you a platitude, would that make
you feel any better? And of course, they say no, but
we do it with our children all the time.
And in the name of trying to make them feel better, what they
really need, and this is the topic that we're getting into
now, is how do we empty out a child?
(24:12):
How do we make them feel safe? How do we make develop a
language with them? How do we deal with their
intensities so they can deal with their intensity?
You know, all these things go into this emptying out process.
And in order to explain that, I have to explain the first term,
which is being filled up, right?Obviously you can empty out
(24:33):
something. What's filling them up?
That's the obvious thing, you know, the logical thing to talk
about. Well, what happened?
Well, this is how I explained it, and I'll explain it here
too. We all have a emotional space
within us. You know, we always point to our
chest, our heart when we talk about our emotions.
But obviously it's a psychological space in our
(24:56):
brain, you know, emotional associations.
And this space gets filled up with intense emotion.
Could be anxiety, It could be stress in little children, like
I said earlier, it could be intense Glee.
It's the intensity of the emotion that fills us up.
Now, what I'm trying to explain here is what happens when we get
filled up. Well, it's uncomfortable.
(25:17):
You know, we know when we're filled up as adults because we
have words to describe the phrases that describe it.
Like I've had it up to here, thestraw that broke the camel's
back. You know, there's a number of
them. We know we're aware when we're
filled up as adults. Children are aware too.
But as adults, you know, what dowe do?
(25:39):
Well, we focus inwardly and try to cope with how our intense
emotions, they, they feel intense.
Sometimes we feel that chaotic or like we don't control all of
our emotions. You know, it certainly that can
be scary. So we try to deal with them.
How do we do that? We, there's a hundred different
ways we can journal, we can get it off our chest with somebody
else. We can, you know, go watch TV
(26:01):
and get our mind off and go for a run.
You know what I mean? There's all kinds of things we
do to relieve the intensity of our emotions.
So the point I'm trying to make is when somebody's filled up,
they are focused inwardly. They try to cope with their own.
So by definition, they're not focused outwardly on what people
are saying to them. The best example I can give you,
(26:21):
at least the most graphic example that I can give you,
Jay, is if you've ever seen somebody in a rage, maybe you've
heard the term a blinding rage. Have you ever heard that term a
blinding rage? Yeah, I have.
OK, that's true. When somebody is so filled up
with anger, they're pretty much blind to anything that's that's
(26:42):
going on around them. You can give them most logical
explanation for why they shouldn't feel the way it is, or
it's not that bad and they're not going to hear it.
They'll hear that 5% that somehow supports their rage or
somehow your tone of voice that supports their rage.
And the person who's trying to be logical, explained things,
(27:04):
scratches their heads and say, what's going on here?
I can't talk to you. And now we've got a wall
developing between parents, for instance.
I can't talk to you. They don't understand it.
You know what, at first, if a person is going to actually hear
what they have to say, they haveto be emptied out first.
And that's a skill that we're going to talk about right now.
A lot of it is familiar, you know, active listening, you
(27:26):
know, Thomas Gordon from way back in the 60s and 70s, Sure,
you know, but there's a lot moreto it than that.
It gets back into the soothing presence.
Your state of mind is very important when you're trying to
empty out somebody, especially children.
Children are exquisitely aware of how their parents feel.
You can pick up an infant and ifyou're a tense, they will cry.
(27:47):
Children are, you know, they react to how you feel.
So you've got to be in a good place to do this, which again,
we get into the soothing presence and a lifestyle.
And you know, it's very difficult these days to to not
be impinged upon by the environment, let's say, put it
that way and feel stressful, butthat's what's necessary.
(28:10):
So when you empty out somebody that's that's a child, pursue
the child and it really depends on their age.
Like for instance, with an infant, your words aren't going
to mean much. You're going to hold them,
include to them and things like that and that's going to soothe
them the warmth of your body. As they get older, you start to
(28:30):
do it with words and your tone of voice and your body language.
Basically, you know, child can be upset.
I'm still here for you, I'm OK. The idea is that if you're OK,
your child can sort of borrow your canis so you're not getting
defensive. And you know, the hardest part
is when the child's saying you did this and you did that.
(28:51):
And but what you want to do is defend yourself, which is it's
not going to be helpful. It's too logical.
And I'm going to explain that right now.
Why? It's too logical when you empty
out somebody by mirroring back what they say.
And when I mean a mirror, I meanexactly a mirror.
You don't sum up, you don't giveyour own spin.
You can repeat their words to them so they know that and you
(29:14):
keep body confidence so they know they're really listening.
They're really listening when you do that in a soothing way,
in a calm way, you know, child feels like you're really
listening to them and you're taking them seriously.
And that is the basis of most oftherapy.
To tell your truth. When a person feels like they're
truly listened to and taken seriously, that gives them the
(29:36):
hope that things can be better. That's part of the motivation
for for following through in therapy.
It's the same way with what we're talking about.
So the thing that your parents and actually spouses or just any
emotional relationship needs to understand that when you empty
out somebody by being a good mirror and, and, and validating
(30:01):
how they feel, even if you don'tunderstand why they feel the way
they do, phrases like based on how you see it, no wonder you
feel the way you do, but you're not exactly agreeing with them,
but you know, they, they feel like you're honoring A
perception. But the thing I understand is
it's actually 3 levels of emotionality that needs to be
empty down, not one. Most of us try to stay on the
(30:24):
what I call the here and now level, which is the obvious
level. I use a simple example to
explain this. I'll give it, OK, you need to
take out the garbage. Now we have a lot of words to
describe logically why you should take out the garbage.
It's treating the smell. It's your chore, you know, easy.
OK. The next level, deeper level and
(30:48):
we have more of the intensity ofthe reaction comes in.
It's the history level. This is the sixth time I've
asked you to take out the guard and you haven't done it.
Now obviously the sixth time theperson's reaction is going to be
more intense. But if you are an outsider
looking in and you didn't know the history, you've looked at
(31:10):
that person and go, wait a minute, what's the big deal?
So they didn't take out the deepest level is what I call the
tapped into level. The fact that you didn't take
out the garbage when I asked you6 times already means that you
don't listen to me. I hate when people don't listen
to me. My parents didn't listen to me
and I hated that, you know? And this one can go anywhere.
(31:32):
All right, person's emotional history.
Well, people try to keep arguinglogically on level 1 here and
now, and it's just infuriates topeople because they're not
getting to the deeper levels. You know, when you're getting
emptying out the person who's listening, the soothing presence
that knows they're emptying out on the history level when the
(31:55):
person starts talking like it, you always do this, so you never
do that. Now they're referring to
previous events. Now you can even elicit that as
a soothing presence. Have I done that before?
Has that happened before? What was it like then?
You know, the deepest level is what I've just described hate
when my parents did this. Well, tell me about that.
(32:18):
Well, they did it this and they did it this and then my aunt did
this. And you know, this one can go
anywhere. And it's very important to get
to that because sometimes, for instance, what a child is
reacting to may not be what you think they're reacting to.
And that's why it's necessary togo to this level because, for
instance, I had a child who was very upset and sad because, you
(32:40):
know, he was being teased on thebus and the parents said, well,
you know, they'll eventually stop and stuff like that and all
this kind of stuff. But what he was really upset
about was that his best friend was sitting next to him and his
best friend joined in with the tease.
That was the thing that was so hard for him.
But if the parents, you know, the parents were just jumping in
too early and giving him a solution.
(33:01):
But he was really, so he was sadthat his best friend was doing
this. You know, that was his what he
was really reacting to. So you know that this is a skill
and it takes a presence of mind to do it.
By the end of the emptying out process, when the parent can
murder back to the child, this is what happened.
(33:22):
I understand this is what it waslike.
You know, I understand why you were so upset about it.
You know, what can we do about this?
And notice the we, it's a merger.
I don't know what are you going to do about it, but what are you
going to do about that time the child is emptied out and how
(33:42):
they can actually speak about a possible solution.
You can go back to the logical, constructive part.
Parents skipped the emptying outpart and the child's not ready
to hear it. Same thing with the spouse.
You know, men's from Mars, womenfrom Venus.
I don't want to get into stereotypes, but men do seem to
have a tendency to want to fix things.
(34:03):
So they'll jump and say, let's do this, making that silent
assumption that if we just do this, my spouse will feel all
better. Some work that way.
I wish it did. If you and I would be unemployed
if it worked that way, you know,it'd be so simple to do this
type of thing. But it's not simple.
And this is the creative part ofit.
Like I said, everybody's different.
(34:24):
Every child is different and allour experiences are different.
We relate to our world through our experiences, especially our
emotional experiences, and they're not the same.
Helping people to find the wordsfor what, for these types of
things is really the key. You know, I feel this way and I
(34:45):
don't know why. Well, let's try to do this
mutual exploration. We'll find the words for it.
And once they understand what's really going on, then what can
we do to make it any good? With children, where do you
start? You know, with young children,
you have to develop the emotional language first.
You got to help them with their intensity first.
You got to make it safe for them, which is why adult work
(35:09):
and child work is vastly different, you know, because you
have to consider child development.
You're also realizing that you're not the agent of change,
it's the parents. And the parents environment has
an impact. You know, all the things that
I've just mentioned, you know, it's a big lump.
Guess you'd say, you know, yeah,it's just a lot that has to, you
(35:30):
know, you have to take sort of take, pick all ends and go
toward the middle, you know, which is why I never see
children without seeing their parents except in the cases of
like abuse or something like that sometimes, you know, that's
the exception to the rule. Yeah.
So that's the emptying out that,you know, the filled up
(35:52):
phenomenon, if you will, the emptying out part, the
regressive part, the, you know, the internalization part.
All of this gets pretty complicated, but it's also very
creative, you know? Yeah, no, I think you did a
really a great job there breaking it all down.
And you know, even though it is a very, it can seem like a very
(36:14):
complex thing here. It it's rather simple.
Like you said, you know, you go back to your assumptions, you
eliminate your assumptions and then you, you know, you start or
not eliminate them, but you start working through those
assumptions, right. You can you take a step back and
say are they act? Do do we actually have a
language here? What is actually going on?
And we start to address those assumptions instead of just
leaving them as assumption. Because if you just leave them
(36:36):
as assumptions, thinking, you know, when you don't know, then
you're going to be no better forit.
And nobody, when someone's readyto calm down, they're ready to
calm down. But when someone's ready to calm
down, they'll be ready to calm down.
But not before that yet. Be ready.
You have to be like you're saying here, emptied out of all
those other emotions and all those other, you know, feelings
and that body stress and that energy to be able to think
(37:00):
logically because your brain's in a frenzy, you know, you're
not able to think logically. That's just system values, but
you're right. Yeah, yeah.
And especially for our kids, like their space is so much
smaller, right? So, and there's, if there's
chaos going on in their space, their space is significantly
smaller than ours. So they don't have the capacity
(37:20):
for it. And so you try to throw logic
into that equation, then it's just going to, it's going to
blow everything up even more because they just don't have the
room for it. They don't have the capacity for
that, at least not until they'reemptied out a little bit.
No, they have to MPA out a lot. That's the thing, you know, you
really got to empty them out because you cut in too quickly
(37:41):
or sum up too quickly and all that kind of thing.
They're not done, you know? And so this is important because
there's so many things that you can really help a child to
mature emotionally. If you have, if you can take on
the role of the soothing presence and the child feel safe
to talk to you about peer pressure, you can help the child
(38:04):
with peer pressure. If they, you know, children who
do not have a soothing presence and finally give up on their
parents as somebody they can talk to, who do they turn to?
Especially teens, who do they turn to?
They turn to, yeah, other teens,which is the worst thing.
Or they turn to more than likelysomeone that you're not going to
(38:24):
agree with that will counteract your personal family values that
will go against how you've been trying to raise them for the
last who knows how many years. the OR they'll turn to doctor,
doctor Internet, doctor TikTok and doctor Google and all these
things. And yeah, and they'll be,
(38:45):
they'll be captured in essence, right, you know?
Typically, they'll turn to otherteenagers who earn the same boat
they're in. They can't talk to their parents
either. And, you know, you put enough of
them together. You know, the adolescent brain
does not make really good decisions, as we know.
And So what you have is the beginning of what could turn
(39:09):
into a gang, you know, You just don't want that, you know?
And so it's very important. And you know, the ironic part,
I'll tell you the ironic part ismothers will come in to me with
their daughter who is very upsetand acting out.
And the mother will say to me, Idon't understand it.
(39:29):
We are so close. We're more like sisters and
mother and daughter. And I know what the problem is,
right? Obey.
She doesn't need a sister, she needs a mother, You know what I
mean? And then we get all back into
what I just said, you know, so there's a lot of subtlety to
some of these things. And you're right.
They'll turn to people that you don't approve of or they're, you
know, one of the good things about being the shooting
(39:50):
president is you help the child to assert their own values.
And that's what helps them to todeal with the peer pressure.
You can turn to them. Their best friend did something
dumb. They went to a party, got drunk
and got in a car accident, you know, or something.
And if you, if you lecture that your child, your teenager about,
oh, your friend was bad, I don'tthink you should hang out with
(40:10):
this person. They're going to defend their
friend. First of all, telling a teenager
what they should you shouldn't do.
Teenager perceives that as you're treating them like a
child and they're not going to tolerate it because they want to
be seen as growing up. So you know, they're going to
fight you and they're going to fight you.
You know, this is my best friend.
But rather if you if you have this relationship, you say, what
(40:33):
do you make of what your friend did?
If a child needs to feel safe enough, this teenager, excuse
me? Well, I think it was kind of
dumb. What do you mean it was dumb?
Well, you know, this, you know, and they real, you know, because
they got into trouble, all that kind of thing.
OK, How would you have done it differently?
You see, now they're going to express their own values.
(40:55):
Well, I don't think I would havedone it that way.
I don't think I would have gone to the party.
I think I would have when Bobby offered, you know, my friend,
you know, a joint. I don't think I would have done
that, you know, why not? You see?
Well, I don't think that's a good idea.
How come? And here's a here's a here's a
rub here. You know, Shakespeare would say
the child can teenager and go through that with you.
(41:18):
I see. Well, what how would you have
done there? Oh, I wouldn't have gone to the
party or I would have said no. The fact that you can think it
through that way really shows methat you're growing up and
that's exactly how a teenager wants to be seen.
Yeah, they want to. They want to be, they want to
have a conversation, right? They don't want to be lectured.
They want to have that conversation with you and they
(41:38):
want to be heard in that conversation.
They they did, they insist on having some say.
Of course they'd like that finalsay, but they can't.
But you know, yeah, that's that's the blurry line.
But most teenagers will really appreciate being seen as growing
up. And it's also in the meta
message is this is how you're grown up, not by smoking dope,
not by getting drunk. This is how you this is what it
(42:02):
means to be mature. This is very important,
especially the emotional language part.
I'll tell you why. If, if a grown, you know, a
temper tantrum in a 5 year old, we expect they don't have the
language. You know, they, they set their
intense, we can handle them. A 5 year old having a, a 17 year
(42:24):
old having a tantrum because they don't have the language.
That's could be jail time. I mean, somewhere in between,
they got to learn how to use their words, quote UN quote.
I, I saw two brothers, 9:00 and 7:00 and they were in my waiting
room and I was talking to mom for a few minutes and we heard a
scuffle, nothing big. But about a minute later we hear
(42:47):
a scream. So we go out there waiting room
and there's the nine year old holding his arm like this in
tears, crying. And the seven-year old's looking
like, uh oh, I'm in big trouble.And mom, I'm observing this
because I'm the psychologist, ofcourse.
And I'm, you know, I'm observingthis.
Mom says what happened? The 9 year old says he bit me
(43:11):
and he takes down his arm and his teeth marks on his arm and
his brother really bit him and the ma.
I felt so bad for the mom here. Here she is in the
psychologist's office and her kids are biting one another.
She's mortified. And she turned to the younger
one. She said I told you to use your
words and a little. The seven-year old turned and
said, mom, I don't know how. And I said, mom, that's where we
(43:33):
need to go. That's what we need to work at.
You know, it was just a very dramatic example of what we're
talking about, those assumptionsthat the Arab Smith use your
words as a skill, you know, a grown up.
I had a sort of teenager who wasdefinitely afraid of his
father's. His father was an angry man.
You know, he would lash out. One time he came in and he was
(43:55):
really happy. But what happened?
Well, I don't have to worry about my dad.
What happened? Well, his dad had a business at
home and his customers would come and park on the street and
his neighbor across the way wentup to the day and say, Hey,
your, your, your clients are taking up all our pocket spaces.
(44:17):
And they got into a row and dad punched this guy.
The guy fell back, hit the back of his head on the curb and was
I had three young kids. Dad went to jail for 15 years
and the teenager felt relieved because he didn't have to deal
with his angry dad. I mean, again, a very dramatic
(44:39):
example of, of, of how importantit is to develop an emotional
language to, to be able to handle intensity.
It doesn't just happen because you're smart.
You know, it doesn't just happenbecause you grow up.
It's a skill that requires parents or, you know, if the
parents are not good at it, you know, you mentioned they may
(45:01):
turn to other adults and some ofthose adults are not the good
people. Both young children have a have
a capacity called elasticity. In other words, if they can't
get their emotional needs met from one source, they can
transfer to another source. Uncle Billy, you know what I
mean? You know, which is a good thing
because sometimes parents are are not capable or not
(45:22):
available. The problem comes with in with
that is when there's a like a step parent and that step parent
becomes more the emotional parent than the original parent.
That's not your dad. I'm your dad.
Well, children with elasticity have no problem having two dads,
but they also want to make sure their parents are OK so they can
(45:43):
be OK. So they'll have to take a side.
So they're not going to like stepdad.
Do you know what I mean? Because dad doesn't like stepdad
and he wants to make dad happy and because if he that's happy
with him, then he can be happy with himself.
It's all part of self esteem. So, you know, it's like, OK, so
I have to talk to, you know, blended families about things
like that. Yeah, that's a whole nother.
(46:06):
That's a whole nother. Yep.
Grab a hold of Junction all together.
Well, there's a chapter in the book called on high Conflict
families because it's stuff likethis.
Divided loyalty, parent alienation, all those things I'm
sure that you're familiar with. Yeah, very.
I'd really like to to get us wrapped up here for time's sake,
to respect your time and a little bit of just to kind of
(46:29):
lighten up the conversation a little bit right here at the end
of the podcast. My listeners love entering the
Dad Zone. So if you will, I'll just enter
the Dad Zone together, which is 3 quick questions or actually 4
technically quick questions thatI'll ask you to end the podcast.
And these are some that I didn'tsend over to you with the
intention of having some fun with them.
I. Also want to plug my website in
my book though remember that. We'll plug that at the event at
(46:51):
the very end, I. Appreciate that at.
The very end here. So first question here in the
Dad Zone, you're hosting a dinner party.
You're inviting three people, dead or alive.
Who are you inviting? Let me think about that for a
second. All right?
I'd invite my father, who passedaway early, OK?
Because I miss him, my best friend Norb, who's an amazing
(47:12):
musician and we are both psychologists and we have a lot
in common, but a lot difference.He's creative in a Jungian way
and I'm creative in a more psychodynamic.
But she's very wise, you know? What is your guilty pleasure?
Oh, go ahead. No, my wife is very wise and and
(47:34):
she's also very smart. I mean, I'm not dumb, but she's
smarter than I am. What can I tell you?
And the part that's hard about that is that you're married,
obviously, is that she's usuallyright.
And I don't want her to always be right.
You know, sometimes I'd like to be right, but all right.
So those are the three people that I would.
Love it. What is your guilty pleasure
(47:54):
food? Food.
Yep, guilty pleasure. Guilty pleasure food.
Why I have to let you know I just lost 53 lbs.
Congratulations. Yeah, yeah, Mixture of
pickleball, which I play religiously, and the Ozempic,
those shots that you take that help you lose weight, those
shots really work. What can I tell you?
But anyway, my guilty pleasure food, that would have to be ice
(48:18):
cream, chocolate fudge, ice cream.
I can eat that by the gallon. I could.
So when I was in my 20s, I'd geta thing of a gallon of Breyer's
Vanilla Fudge ice cream, and I was that hot thing down.
Of course, it was a lot cheaper back then too.
(48:38):
Right. Yeah, yeah.
And then the second to last question here in the dad zone,
does pineapple go on pizza? No.
No. Great, perfect answer.
And then very, very last, very last.
Question. No, it's just a, it's a fun
question that we've had on the podcast for a long, long, long
time. What is 1 piece of advice that
(49:00):
you would offer to a new dad ages 18 to 22 that's just
starting out? His parent or his fatherhood
journey. So just one piece of advice for
him. OK.
There are three things you're trying to accomplish at that
age, all right? 1 is what am I going to do,
where am I going to do it, and who am I going to do it with?
All right. Those three are pressing
(49:23):
questions that you really need to work at in order to be OK
yourself. All right, so finding a decent
job or getting the training for a decent job so that you don't
come, you know, doing something you don't like to do, you know
where hopefully some place you get support, you know what I'm
saying? With a family or friends,
(49:45):
whatever it means. A lot of these companies now
move people around to move up the the the ladder.
And I've seen families break up because they have no support in
Houston. You know what I mean?
You know, like that. And the third is, you know who
you going to do it with? Well, that's that's a matter of
finding that person you can makea haven with.
(50:06):
And what I mean by that is the person you usually end up with
is a person that somehow together you're better than the
sum of your parts. You you complement each other,
not with the E. You know, that is that somehow
this person I can, I can trust to really be there for me
emotionally and physically because that's the basis I can
(50:28):
predict this person because that's the basis of trust.
When you can predict somebody's trust them, it's also the basis
of a child security. Being able to trust your spouse
will also help your children to be able to trust the two of you.
That's where it ties in. So those are the three things
that I would as objectives for people, young, young parents,
(50:50):
young young people. Love that.
So David, this has been a great conversation, very insightful.
We're pretty deep on some topics.
So I, I enjoy that myself. The best way for people to
connect to you is that going to be parentrx.org.
That's my website. That's exactly right.
It's called Parent RX, like Parent Prescription and the
(51:10):
subtitle Prescriptive Wisdom, Tips and Strategies for
Communication with Your Child. OK, that'll be the title of the
book. They can reach me.
And you know, these podcasts, including this one, will be
listed on my website. So our listeners go to
parentrx.org, that's PARENTR x.org to explore more Doctor
(51:31):
Marcus's work insight and accesshis parenting resources that can
make a real difference in your home, including his his
forthcoming bug here. And with that, make sure you go
and give your kid a hug. Remember, we're not trying to be
perfect parents. We're just showing up with
presidents, honesty and love. Keep going forward, keep moving
forward. You're doing a great job.
Until next time, we'll talk to you right here on the Young Dad
Podcast. Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.