April 29, 2025 • 44 mins
What do you wish I asked this guest? What was your "quotable moment" from this episode?
Mike Ditter of The Rusted Rabbit jewelry shares their journey as a witch who views their practice through transmutation, turning metals and minerals into talismans of protection, power, and healing while challenging conventional belief systems and societal expectations.
• Embracing witch identity as a form of protest against religious and societal expectations
• Practicing magic through jewelry-making as a form of transmutation
• Using communication as a powerful magical tool to connect with others
• Acknowledging and leveraging white privilege while creating inclusive spaces
• Building community through playful activities that foster trust and authentic connection
• Recognizing the dangers of organized belief systems that lead to gatekeeping and exclusion
• Finding individual paths rather than following dogmatic practices
• Offering advice to new practitioners: Listen, Dream, and Trust
• Sharing experiences of balancing personal identity with being part of a creative partnership
Check out The Rusted Rabbit at therustedrabbitgr.com!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome back to your Average Witch where every other
Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories and sometimes a
little witchcraft.
This week's episode is broughtto you by Flora and Function
functional handmade pottery thathelps you have a magical start
to every day.
Get yours atflora-and-functioncom.
This week I'm talking with Mike, the other half of the magic of
(00:25):
the rusted rabbit.
We talked about communication,community and cannibalism Okay,
not really, I mean kind of, butanyway, let's get to the stories
.
Mike, hello, good morning.
It is still morning here.
I know it's not for you, buthello, good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello, hello, how's it going, kim?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Good.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Thank you so much.
I'm very happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Can you please introduce yourself and let
everybody know who you are andwhat you do and where they can
find you who you are and whatyou do and where they can find
you.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Absolutely, my name is Mike Ditter.
My pronouns are they slash,them slash, destroyer of gender
as a construct.
I am one half of the handmadejewelry team called the Rusted
Rabbit.
We are based in Grand Rapids,michigan.
The other half is my lovelypartner, lindsey abbott um, and
(01:26):
you can find us on the devil'ssocials, uh, like facebook, we
are the rusted rabbit, and oninstagram, we are at the real GR
and we also have a websitewwwtherustedrabbitgrcom.
(01:52):
What is the GR?
Grand Rapids is where we live.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I always wondered.
I thought it was some.
I don't know rock thing.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
We're just grrrring at you, grrr.
Going back to the emo days.
First of all, do you callyourself a witch?
Yes, in a vague sense of theterm, I would say that I I
(02:25):
identify with the label.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yes, what does it mean, what does the word mean to
you and how do you, how do you,how do you assign it to
yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Um.
So the word means to me and howI assign it to myself.
I would say that the word whichmeans um, kind of uh, uh, and
how I assign it to myself.
I would say that the word witchmeans kind of an identity that
I take on as a form of protest.
It's kind of the idea that thisthing, being something outside
(03:03):
of the main religions, is fearedand ostracized and not taken
seriously, and also to the pointof literal persecution and
murder.
So for me it's kind of a takingback of an identity outside of
what is expected, of an identityoutside of what is expected.
(03:25):
So, yeah, I think that's kindof what it means to me and why I
use it personally.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Cool, can you?
Introduce us to your practice.
Do you do anything?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
like, consistently or inconsistently.
So everything in my life isvery inconsistent, but I've been
an on and off practitioner mostof my life.
From fifth to seventh grade.
I considered myself wickedbefore I really understood what
any of this was.
(04:03):
Me and a few friends would goand circle up inside of a large
hedge at our school and trycasting spells.
The one I remember the most wascalled Turn your Bully Green.
We tried but unfortunatelynever saw a result from that
spell.
Fast forward to today, the mostconstant form of practice that
(04:26):
I have is transmutation makingsomething from nothing, turning
something undesirable intosomething desirable.
A lot of my practice comes outin my jewelry having the power
to turn metals and minerals intotalismans of protection, power,
healing, joy and so much more.
I believe that even oursmallest choices, practices and
(04:48):
actions are actually ritual, andI don't have a structured
practice, as I said already, andI promised myself that I would
never look for organization inmy belief, never wanting to fall
into the trap of someone else'sbelief and taking that on as my
own.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Huh, so you're not going to go out and join a coven
, not really it's not reallysomething that interests me.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I think it's a beautiful practice and a
beautiful way of building andfinding community.
I don't take that away fromanyone anyone that looks to
religion or finding a coven or agroup that follows a similar
belief system to them, but forme it's just.
I really like to being like atriple Aquarius and six times
(05:38):
over Capricorn.
I really like to make my ownway and if someone tries to tell
me what I should think or notthink, I'm probably going to
jump out a window.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You know, I didn't know that about you and it does.
It explains things.
What's the biggest motivator inyour practice and how does it
contrast with your biggeststruggle or how does it relate
to your biggest struggle?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Okay, so I've again.
This is going to be a lot ofrephrasing and coming back to
similar themes, but my biggestmotivator in practice is again
shirking conventionality andshirking expectation.
Today, in the world we live in,it kind of feels unsafe to be
(06:33):
anything other than white,cisgendered, hetero, christian,
and I believe that that's onpurpose.
That's on purpose.
They the people in those groupsand setting up those systems,
know that all of thoseinstitutions are in danger of
losing control of the populaceand losing control of the
narrative.
They combat that by making theworld feel unsafe for people
(06:57):
like us or anyone that isn'tthem, in an effort to wear
people down into falling intoone of their categories.
In an effort to wear peopledown and to falling into one of
their categories, all they seemto care about is numbers and
control.
So my motivation is pushing backagainst all of those
institutions trying to taketheir power away.
In doing that, I have acceptedmyself for who I am queer,
(07:21):
gender, nonconforming pagan.
One thing I can't change is mywhiteness, but what I can change
is how I wear that whitenessand how I wield it.
I choose to use my privilege topush back on those institutions
that give me this unearnedprivilege and try my hardest to
uplift those who have beenvictimized by the system and I
(07:43):
think the biggest way, what wasthe second part of the question
again?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
How does it interact with your biggest struggle?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So I think that is my biggest struggle is the
imposter syndrome, feeling likeI shouldn't have a space because
I am so masculine, presentingin my day-to-day life and so
white that this isn't the spacefor me to speak up and that I
should be kind of sitting downand keeping my thoughts to
(08:17):
myself and letting other peoplespeak on what's happening in the
world.
On what's happening in theworld.
So that's been one of mybiggest struggles.
Even though I am a champion ofthe same beliefs, it can be
really hard to try and speak upabout those beliefs because it
feels like the world doesn'tneed to hear from another white
(08:37):
dude.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Plus, the repercussions are scary.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Absolutely, and for good reason.
(09:08):
You know it's definitely asystem of privilege and
oppression that has been reallygood, for there are just so many
, so many different ways that ittries to hold on to control.
And I'm trying to be somethingthat is not holding on to
control, I'm trying to besomething that wants to pass
that on.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I appreciate it.
What is something you wish morepeople would ask you about?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So I love this question in particular.
I hope it doesn't sound toosimilar to Lindsay's answer.
I don't know her answer, but Ihope it doesn't sound too
similar.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I don't remember her answer, so it's going to be a
surprise either way.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So I wish more people asked me about myself as a
human and as an individual.
My partner, lindsay, and I havebeen together since we were 18,
19 years old, so about 16 years, and that time yeah, I know
it's we were babies.
In that time we've done almosteverything this relationship.
(10:22):
I wish more people would see usand treat us as individuals
instead of one half of a couple,and I implore people, when
they're dealing with people intheir lives, to practice seeing
every person that you meet as afull and vibrant individual with
lots to give on their own, andnot just their proximity to
(10:43):
someone else.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Not that famous football player's girlfriend.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Exactly Her name's Taylor Swift.
Yeah, and she's out therekilling it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I don't remember the boyfriend's name, but whatever
you get the point.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yep me either.
We can call him Taylor Swift'sboyfriend.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I only barely remember her name.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
so Fair enough me too .
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Think about your favorite tool, whether it's an
actual physical object or a songor some sort of story you heard
once.
What is your favorite tool touse in your practice and how do
you use it?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
So, thinking about this, this one hit pretty close
to home for me.
I think that my favorite toolis communication, you know, the
ability to share perspectivewith those that I come across,
to learn from each other'smistakes and accomplishments, to
glean a glimpse into someoneelse's existence.
(11:52):
I think this is one of the mostimportant and powerful tools we
have as a species and Ipersonally believe that's why so
many people in power are tryingto attack communication whether
it be through indoctrination onsocial media or what have you
and turning that communicationinto just dogpiling and
(12:13):
attacking instead of holdingspace and understanding.
I think it is up to us torealize when we are falling into
groupthink and falling intoecho chambers and try to push
back against the temporarycomfort that those echo chambers
and groupthink affords us.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I'm just picturing people that we both know
listening to this, that's fun todo.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, I'm thinking of them going.
Yeah, that, this yeah that'sfunny.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going .
Yeah that, or yeah shut up,white dude.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
That's a lot of privilege talking, or that?
Yeah, I mean it.
It really goes both ways.
I completely understand theprivilege that I've been
afforded and I know that it'seasier for me to think in those
ways.
Yeah, I just kind of hope thatwe find a way to societally meet
(13:18):
in the middle and learn to noteven meet in the middle but
actually learn to communicateand, um, find a way to move past
all of these, um, what's theword for it?
The social conditioning thatwe've been put into, and all of
these, the right wing, um, thelike social wars that they've
(13:44):
been trying to push throughtheir media of attacking trans
individuals, of attacking, um,so many other underserved and
underprivileged groups, justbecause they can, and they can
use that as a distraction, and Ihope that we as a society can
learn to move past those thingsseconded.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I'm trying not to getderailed on rants, I really am
oh, I mean, go for it, dude Icannot I my blood pressure fair
enough I cannot right now I feelya yeah what's something you
(14:29):
wish was discussed more in themagical community.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So this one you know.
Again it might.
I hope it doesn't rufflefeathers and I hope that my
meaning comes across.
But I think something that Iwish was discussed more, and why
I wanted to bring it up, is thedangers of organization of
belief, because, when you thinkabout it, every single person
(14:57):
alive 8 billion and something ofus has their very own belief
system.
Sure, many find themselves inlarge groups of people that
think similarly, but that beliefsystem could never be a
one-for-one copy of someoneelse's.
We all have our own livedexperiences that shape our
perspective.
So even if you and I callourselves witches or pagan or
(15:17):
what have you, we will havewildly different perspectives on
what that means.
In larger organized religions,this has turned into hate,
segregation, even genocide.
This has turned into hate,segregation, even genocide.
In the magical community, weare not immune to this kind of
group thinking, and it hasturned into gatekeeping,
(15:54):
exclusion, lack of empathy andthe idea that your one in eight
billion belief system cansomehow say that someone else is
other and therefore wrong.
I think that the true power andthe chance for growth as a
species hinges on us realizingthat none of us are more
important or deserving than anyother, and we are all one
consciousness experiencingitself in billions of different
ways that little phrase drivesme crazy, okay, yeah, okay, not
(16:17):
that phrase specifically, but Iam the universe experiencing
itself or whatever that hurts mybrain.
It hurts my feelings stop yeahthink about things I I know just
let me eat these mcnuggets andleave me alone.
I mean, this will be the firsttime that I make this disclaimer
, but I don't condonecannibalism, but if we are going
(16:39):
to eat ourselves in the form ofchicken nuggets, then I think
you should be free to.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Okay, thanks, I'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I'll be here, grab me some.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
What steps have you taken to build community near
you Physically?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
near you that I feel like I'm going to be working on
for the rest of my life.
It's not something that I feelinherently good at, but, being
human, I have been hurt by thecommunity that I worked to build
(17:22):
in my 20s, so I am stilllicking those wounds, so to
speak.
But, that being said, I amstill pushing to create spaces
around me that are safe, and Ihave helped to organize
community cleanup walks where wego, walk through parks and just
pick up any trash, anythingthat's out of place, that we can
(17:45):
, I hope, to get back to doingthose.
It's been a few years we can, Ihope, to get back to doing
those.
It's been a few years.
More recently, I've beenworking on creating activities
for people to get together andget back to our roots.
What that looks like is gettingout into a field somewhere with
people that you don't know andplaying games that we played in
(18:06):
childhood.
The goal of those activities isto bring us back to the
schoolyard before the worldtaught us to be afraid and
protective, to tear down thewalls we've built and work on
letting trust and love back intoour lives.
As far as resources, I say toand this is going to be.
I'm sure no one's ever saidthis before.
(18:27):
I say to use yourself as aresource.
What do you need from society?
Ask yourself, what do you needfrom life and from your
community?
Once you've answered thatquestion, it's time to either
find that thing or create ityourself.
We are powerful beings, full ofideas and promise, and we can
do amazing things.
Also know this if you need thatthing, there are plenty of
(18:51):
other people around you thatneed it too, and if you won't do
it for yourself, try and do itfor them.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Okay, let's go into that a little bit.
I'd love to.
How do you find those people?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Put yourself out there.
Not where my perspective.
From my experience growing upin the time that I did, it seems
easiest to do that through thedifferent social media outlets
that we have.
There are different newsletters, usually for many people that
(19:43):
are at least semi-local, thatyou can speak to get your
listings into.
I've done that with a few ofthe rusted rabbits um events
that we've done, like wirewrapping workshops and stuff
like that.
Um also, you can talk to theother media outlets.
A lot of times they are lookingfor different, smaller local
(20:05):
stories to share.
Um, whether or not that'sterrifying it, it it is.
Yes, I, I agree.
And again, none of these are umone size fits all um answer.
It's just what works for you.
You can even like there arestill bulletin boards all over
(20:27):
the place that you can go andhang something up, and if it's
in a trafficked enough area thenyou might get the right eyes on
to something.
So yeah, I say, just kind oflook around you and see what
around you seems like the rightway to put yourself out there to
find those people, and a lot oftimes there's already going to
(20:50):
be different activities that arekind of lining up with what you
want to do.
So go and join those things like, for example, with my um, with
my idea of doing the kids games.
Um, I know around grand rapidswe have a lot of different
kickball leagues and baseballleagues and soccer leagues and
(21:13):
just other leagues of differentgames.
I can go out and startparticipating in those and
through participating in those Ican meet people, talk to them
about my ideas, and you neverknow what's going to come out of
that.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Have you ever tried Meetup?
I'm sure you have.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
So that is one that I really need to do more work
with.
I have dabbled, I have dabbledwith Meetup, and it seems like a
really great and useful tool.
That just somehow slips my mind100% of the time.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I look at it and I think, ooh, here's something I
really want to attend, and thenI mark it and I put it in my
calendar and then I'm afraid togo to it and I don't.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
I've done that more times than I've followed through
.
I think I've followed throughon one of those things and said
I was going to do at least 20.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
So I feel you on that .
Okay, so places people can trythat are not traditional social
media, at least not usuallytalked about.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Next door meet up.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
There's got to be more than that, I know, I know
it's got to be more than thosetwo websites that are not.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It's not meta absolutely, yeah, I, yeah, I
feel you on that and I don'tthink we're claiming to be
experts in the field, but yes, Iknow there are plenty of other
things and I would love forpeople to.
If you have ideas on thosedifferent websites, different
(23:03):
outlets that you can use, putthem in the comments.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You know what?
Yeah, I don't know that I havecomments anywhere.
I don't know how much.
I don't know how it works, butif anybody thinks it has other
resources for this specificthing, email me
youreveragewitchpodcast atgmailcom and I will add them to
a resource list at the bottom ofthis interview page on my
(23:29):
website.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I love that and I'll try to do it.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
I'll try to do it on the other stuff.
But the other stuff updates.
Weird because it feeds from myhost to feeder sites like
Spotify.
But on my website I havecontrol so I know it'll be there
.
But if you have suggestions,email them to me.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Think about your three biggest influences,
whether it's a person or an oldpet or a book you read once, and
thank them for the influencethat they have on your practice.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
All right, so this one got a little long.
I'm sure people can tell I'mreading answers that I wrote
down.
Usually I speak a lot lessmonotone, but so all of that to
say that this one got a littlelong-winded.
(24:28):
My three biggest influenceswhen I really tried, because I
had a hard time boiling thisdown into three particular
influences came down to artists,community builders and the idea
that we are all inherentlydeserving of love.
Starting with artists deservingof love.
(24:51):
Starting with artists.
Artists of all kinds haveinfluenced me by sharing their
ideas, their failures andsuccesses and preserving their
art forms in an effort to shareit and pass it on to whoever is
next in line.
I think that that is huge.
I think that it can be reallyhard to want to share what we're
doing with other people,because so many of the things in
our world are set up to befinite resources and everything
(25:17):
that has made it feel likealmost everything in our life is
a finite resource our talent,our energy, our love has kind of
become boiled down to thesethings that we feel are finite
resources and I think in someways it's true, but I think in
other ways that it's not, and Ithink that it's important as
(25:38):
artists that we try and push formore people to join into those
art forms, because it is such abeautiful way to share pain,
share loss, share grief, sharejoy, share beauty, share the
experiences that we experiencein life.
(25:58):
Community builders haveinfluenced me by showing the
importance of creating andmaintaining spaces for people of
all types to come together andshare what makes their lives
worth living.
Given how easy it is to try andisolate in today's world, I
think the reminder that we needothers and that that need is not
(26:20):
shameful whatsoever, is moreimportant now than ever.
And then the idea that we areall deserving of love has made
me who I am Someone who gives mylove freely.
Someone who doesn'tautomatically jump to gauging
whether or not someone is adanger to me when first meeting
them.
Someone who gives the trustthat I so deeply crave, fully
(26:44):
and without reservation, andsometimes to a fault.
Without reservation andsometimes to a fault.
I know I think it was it lastyear at Anahata's Purpose.
I think you were just gettingthere and I like came up to you
and I didn't realize that youwere a very hug averse person.
And I came in and I was likehey, can I have a hug and, like
(27:07):
I get it, the world isterrifying and scary and, uh, I
could, I could sense thehesitation, which understandable
, 100 understandable.
But, um, I really appreciatedyou kind of giving in to that
moment, even though you feltuncomfortable.
(27:27):
I am sorry if you feltpressured to give back into that
hug.
Um, that's one of those momentsactually.
You know the late night cringemoments when you're just sitting
there awake and you're like, ohwhy, why did I do?
That that's one of the momentsthat comes up for me.
A lot is, uh, hoping that Ididn't make you feel pressured
(27:49):
into something that you couldn'tsay no to.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
But yeah, I just realized I had been interacting
with you and then I noticed thatmy mute button was on.
Ta-da, I did mean to chime in.
Oh Anyway, I do remember that.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
So yes, I hope that that didn't make you too
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
No, I actually went last year and part of one of my
goals in going was to get morecomfortable accepting affection.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
From people who, I'm reasonably sure, are not going
to hurt me.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Right, absolutely Well, you did a damn good job.
It feels like you kicked thedoor open and accepted my hug
and my love and, yeah, I thinkyou did a damn good job.
It feels like you kicked thedoor open and accepted my hug
and my love and, yeah, I thinkyou did a damn good job with
that being your goal Absolutely,and also all of that to say I
(29:04):
do understand the privilege thatcomes into play with that
concept of loving freely and notbeing afraid and trusting.
I understand that that is aprivilege that is afforded to me
as a masculine, presentingwhite person in this world.
It is not as safe this world isnot as safe for most other
people that don't look like me.
So I understand 100% that thatis a privilege and I do not take
(29:28):
that for granted at all.
But I like I'll say it again Ireally do hope we can build a
world where it feels just aseasy and safe for everyone that
doesn't look like me and I thinkall of those things for giving
me the ability to truly seethose around me without fear and
judgment clouding myperspective.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I just want to point out one little thing.
It might be more than one, Idon't know.
I just want to point somethingout that, while I don't think
it's as scary physically, likeyou're probably not afraid that
someone is going to try tomurder you when that happens,
(30:12):
it's still scary for men to showemotion, because you're
basically raised from birth to.
The only emotion you canexpress is some kind of macho
thing, and if you show anyemotion that is not that, then
somebody's gonna come get youabsolutely that.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
That has been a big part of a big thing I've learned
through deconstructing my ownuh and reconstructing my own
gender identity is having toreally, um, focus on what was
expected of me as a person bornwith a penis and what, what, how
(31:00):
I wanted to move forward in theworld.
I absolutely agree that it'sprobably scary for all of us,
absolutely religious upbringing.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
the only time you're supposed to touch another person
is if you're having sex withthem.
You don't give hugs or accepthugs or touch on the hand or
back or whatever.
You don't hold hands unlessyou're in a romantic
relationship with that person,and that's really weird.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I know it's so stupid , it's so backwards compared to
the way our ancestors lived.
Like I and I was talking aboutthis with Lindsay a few weeks
ago and when we were kind oftalking about the questions for
her interview, just kind ofgoing into, kind of going into
(32:04):
sorry, my, my dog just ran in.
Little henry wanted to come sayhi, um, but yes, I agree that,
um, it's kind of the.
It is the goal of a capitalistsociety to make us all feel the
(32:24):
need for rugged individualism,because that's what sells
millions of cars every year,that's what sells everything
around us is the feeling that weall need to have all of these
things for ourselves, andunfortunately that has boiled
down to our relationship and ourintimacy too.
(32:47):
We are supposed to have all ofthese things for ourselves, only
for ourselves and only from oneplace or one person that's so
wild it is.
It's crazy to me good lord, okayanyway I'm happy to see society
breaking out of it, though likeI feel I feel like a lot of
(33:09):
people are starting to wake upand be like no, what, what?
Speaker 1 (33:12):
no, I'm gonna go kiss my friend's face now yeah,
please, don't nobody do that tome, please yeah, don't but I see
, yes, I get the draw absolutelydon't, but I see, yes, I get
the draw absolutely.
Uh, what advice do you have fornew practitioners?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
um.
So this one's hard for me.
I this one was kind of phonedin, I think, because I don't
feel like I have a lot of advice, but what I could kind of boil
it down to was listen, dream andtrust.
Listen when someone asks younot to do something.
(33:56):
That is a sacred and closepractice.
Listen.
Dream when you feel lost onyour path and don't know what to
do.
Dream up your own ideal pathforward and move in conjunction
with that path.
And then trust Trust yourselfand follow your intuition.
So those would be my mainpoints of advice.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Who do you think I should have on the show?
Who do?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
you think I should have on the show.
So these are a few people fromour area here in Michigan, in
the Mitten.
First off is I think Lindsaybrought her up.
Her name is Steph or StephanieFrancisco.
Her and her husband own acouple of?
(34:50):
Um food trucks.
One is called dune buggy andthe other one is called bougie
bowls.
Um, she is right, I know it'ssuch a good name.
Uh, she is amazing.
She has been doing so much workaround this area trying to build
a community, um bringing peopletogether to go on foraging
(35:12):
walks.
She's just a wealth ofknowledge when it comes to, uh,
plants, uh, flora, fauna, um,all of the stuff in our area.
Just a wealth of knowledge andjust the sweetest human possible
.
Um, also, sarah cash uh, she isthe owner of the 12th house.
It's a witchy, metaphysicalshop here in grand rapids.
(35:35):
Uh, definitely check her out.
Um, the 12th house has becomekind of a hub for witchy and
queer-identifying individuals,just a really safe place for
people in a kind of conservativearea.
West Michigan is very Dutch,very Protestant, with a lot of
(36:01):
outlying Catholic influences, soit's not always very safe
around here, but she has createda space in the 12th house that
feels safe and is just lovely,and her name was Sarah Cash.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Cool, thank you.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Was there anything else you wanted to bring up?
Any business stuff happening,any questions you had for me?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Any other things you wanted to talk about that I
didn't ask for people to movewith love whenever they can, and
the world needs more.
It needs us to love its peopleand creatures and things and
(36:54):
rocks and trees.
It needs us to move through itwith love more often.
So that's the only thing Icould really think of.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I like it, thank you.
So the last two things that Iask.
Thing number one recommendsomething to the listeners.
It doesn't have to bewitch-related at all, just
whatever you're into this weekthat you're like, hey, you
should really try.
Blah, blah, blah.
What is it?
Okay, hey?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
you should really try .
Blah, blah, blah.
What is it, okay?
Well, something that has comeacross my radar recently there
is an artist here in WestMichigan.
Her name is C, as in cat R, asin radio Warner, as in Warner
(37:49):
Broadcast, cr Warner she justput out a new tarot deck called
the Feminine Monochromatic, andit is gorgeous.
We backed the Kickstarter backin October, november, and we
just received the deck, so I'dlove to give a shout out for
that.
It is called the FeminineMonochromatic by CR Warner and
(38:14):
it is just.
I don't like to pick favorites,I'm not good at it, but it is
one of my favorite tarot decksI've ever seen.
It is just beautiful.
It's all hand illustrated byher and it's gorgeous, I think.
I think people checking thispodcast out would really love it
that's really fast turnover fora kickstarter deck yeah yeah it
(38:39):
was crazy good job yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Cr.
Good job, cr.
Yeah, she's killing it.
Crazy.
Good job yeah.
Cr.
Good job, cr.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
She's killing it.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
So the last thing I ask is please tell me a story.
It could be a story from yourlife, it could be a kid's story
you heard once.
Whatever, I just like stories.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
So I'm going to apologize beforehand for the
people listening.
So my story that came to mindwas about me being the
hide-and-seek champion of mychildhood friend group.
We would play neighborhood-widegames of hide-and-seek and I
(39:24):
had a spot that no one everfound.
It was in my neighbor's garageand I think all of the other
kids were too scared to open thedoor without permission.
That's cheating, yeah, probably, but it's also why I became the
champion.
So, um and uh, one day we wereplaying and I went to my spot
(39:51):
that I had never been found inand I was there easily two or
three hours.
Um had not heard any commotion.
I finally, you know kind of waslike they've probably given up.
I came out and of course theyhad given up, looking for me
probably an hour beforehand, and, um, unfortunately, during that
(40:11):
two or three hours I had areally bad poop hit me and I was
too committed to winning thegame that I I tried to hold it.
That didn't quite work out.
So there I was, hidden in myneighbor's garage, dropping trow
my 12-year-old body, no longerable to hold my poop in.
(40:39):
And I think of this whenever Iworry that I won't be able to
commit to something important inmy life and just as a follow-up
to that story, I did go backand clean it up and I never
spoke of that predicament untilI was a much older person.
That's dedication.
Yeah, I mean, if I got onething.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
That is not what I was expecting to hear at all.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, so you've met Mike.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
So, mike, thank you for the story absolutely my
pleasure do you want to craft aspell with me?
I would love to okay so I hadpeople people you know as well
as I know them just list offthings and I wrote them down and
(41:48):
then I'm going to pull them out.
But before we do that, whatspell are we doing?
What are we working on?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So my I would love the spell to focus on
transmutation, to use somethingthat we find in an unexpected
way, and I would love to imploreother people to try this
(42:16):
themselves, to go out intonature wherever they feel
comfortable and find something.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
To hear more of the members only episode, head over
to crepuscularconjurationcom.
The monthly magic tier willgive you access to the monthly
Magic Marco Polo group, theprivate Facebook group and
access to the written monthlyspells.
There's also CrepuscularConjurations giving you bonus
podcast episodes, coloring pages, guided meditations,
(42:42):
spellcrafting videos, printabledownloads and a lot more.
The free Witchy Wondermentlevel will give you a little
sample of everything I justmentioned.
You can also visit my shop,clever Kim's Curios, to get
spell boxes, one at a time or bymonthly subscription,
intentional handcrafted jewelrythat I make especially for
witches and handmade altar tools.
(43:03):
You can even listen to the fullyour Average Witch podcast
library, including show notesand transcripts.
Check it out atcrepuscularconjurationcom.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of your Average Witch.
You can find us all around theinternet on Instagram at your
Average Witch Podcast,facebookcom, slash groups, slash
(43:37):
hivehouse atwwwyouraveragewitchcom.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next Tuesday.
Welcome back to your Average Witch where every other
Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories and sometimes a
little witchcraft.
This week's episode is broughtto you by Flora and Function
functional handmade pottery thathelps you have a magical start
to every day.
Get yours atflora-and-functioncom.
This week I'm talking with Mike, the other half of the magic of
(00:25):
the rusted rabbit.
We talked about communication,community and cannibalism Okay,
not really, I mean kind of, butanyway, let's get to the stories
.
Mike, hello, good morning.
It is still morning here.
I know it's not for you, buthello, good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello, hello, how's it going, kim?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Good.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Thank you so much.
I'm very happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Can you please introduce yourself and let
everybody know who you are andwhat you do and where they can
find you who you are and whatyou do and where they can find
you.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Absolutely, my name is Mike Ditter.
My pronouns are they slash,them slash, destroyer of gender
as a construct.
I am one half of the handmadejewelry team called the Rusted
Rabbit.
We are based in Grand Rapids,michigan.
The other half is my lovelypartner, lindsey abbott um, and
(01:26):
you can find us on the devil'ssocials, uh, like facebook, we
are the rusted rabbit, and oninstagram, we are at the real GR
and we also have a websitewwwtherustedrabbitgrcom.
(01:52):
What is the GR?
Grand Rapids is where we live.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I always wondered.
I thought it was some.
I don't know rock thing.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
We're just grrrring at you, grrr.
Going back to the emo days.
First of all, do you callyourself a witch?
Yes, in a vague sense of theterm, I would say that I I
(02:25):
identify with the label.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yes, what does it mean, what does the word mean to
you and how do you, how do you,how do you assign it to
yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Um.
So the word means to me and howI assign it to myself.
I would say that the word whichmeans um, kind of uh, uh, and
how I assign it to myself.
I would say that the word witchmeans kind of an identity that
I take on as a form of protest.
It's kind of the idea that thisthing, being something outside
(03:03):
of the main religions, is fearedand ostracized and not taken
seriously, and also to the pointof literal persecution and
murder.
So for me it's kind of a takingback of an identity outside of
what is expected, of an identityoutside of what is expected.
(03:25):
So, yeah, I think that's kindof what it means to me and why I
use it personally.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Cool, can you?
Introduce us to your practice.
Do you do anything?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
like, consistently or inconsistently.
So everything in my life isvery inconsistent, but I've been
an on and off practitioner mostof my life.
From fifth to seventh grade.
I considered myself wickedbefore I really understood what
any of this was.
(04:03):
Me and a few friends would goand circle up inside of a large
hedge at our school and trycasting spells.
The one I remember the most wascalled Turn your Bully Green.
We tried but unfortunatelynever saw a result from that
spell.
Fast forward to today, the mostconstant form of practice that
(04:26):
I have is transmutation makingsomething from nothing, turning
something undesirable intosomething desirable.
A lot of my practice comes outin my jewelry having the power
to turn metals and minerals intotalismans of protection, power,
healing, joy and so much more.
I believe that even oursmallest choices, practices and
(04:48):
actions are actually ritual, andI don't have a structured
practice, as I said already, andI promised myself that I would
never look for organization inmy belief, never wanting to fall
into the trap of someone else'sbelief and taking that on as my
own.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Huh, so you're not going to go out and join a coven
, not really it's not reallysomething that interests me.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I think it's a beautiful practice and a
beautiful way of building andfinding community.
I don't take that away fromanyone anyone that looks to
religion or finding a coven or agroup that follows a similar
belief system to them, but forme it's just.
I really like to being like atriple Aquarius and six times
(05:38):
over Capricorn.
I really like to make my ownway and if someone tries to tell
me what I should think or notthink, I'm probably going to
jump out a window.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You know, I didn't know that about you and it does.
It explains things.
What's the biggest motivator inyour practice and how does it
contrast with your biggeststruggle or how does it relate
to your biggest struggle?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Okay, so I've again.
This is going to be a lot ofrephrasing and coming back to
similar themes, but my biggestmotivator in practice is again
shirking conventionality andshirking expectation.
Today, in the world we live in,it kind of feels unsafe to be
(06:33):
anything other than white,cisgendered, hetero, christian,
and I believe that that's onpurpose.
That's on purpose.
They the people in those groupsand setting up those systems,
know that all of thoseinstitutions are in danger of
losing control of the populaceand losing control of the
narrative.
They combat that by making theworld feel unsafe for people
(06:57):
like us or anyone that isn'tthem, in an effort to wear
people down into falling intoone of their categories.
In an effort to wear peopledown and to falling into one of
their categories, all they seemto care about is numbers and
control.
So my motivation is pushing backagainst all of those
institutions trying to taketheir power away.
In doing that, I have acceptedmyself for who I am queer,
(07:21):
gender, nonconforming pagan.
One thing I can't change is mywhiteness, but what I can change
is how I wear that whitenessand how I wield it.
I choose to use my privilege topush back on those institutions
that give me this unearnedprivilege and try my hardest to
uplift those who have beenvictimized by the system and I
(07:43):
think the biggest way, what wasthe second part of the question
again?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
How does it interact with your biggest struggle?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So I think that is my biggest struggle is the
imposter syndrome, feeling likeI shouldn't have a space because
I am so masculine, presentingin my day-to-day life and so
white that this isn't the spacefor me to speak up and that I
should be kind of sitting downand keeping my thoughts to
(08:17):
myself and letting other peoplespeak on what's happening in the
world.
On what's happening in theworld.
So that's been one of mybiggest struggles.
Even though I am a champion ofthe same beliefs, it can be
really hard to try and speak upabout those beliefs because it
feels like the world doesn'tneed to hear from another white
(08:37):
dude.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Plus, the repercussions are scary.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Absolutely, and for good reason.
(09:08):
You know it's definitely asystem of privilege and
oppression that has been reallygood, for there are just so many
, so many different ways that ittries to hold on to control.
And I'm trying to be somethingthat is not holding on to
control, I'm trying to besomething that wants to pass
that on.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I appreciate it.
What is something you wish morepeople would ask you about?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So I love this question in particular.
I hope it doesn't sound toosimilar to Lindsay's answer.
I don't know her answer, but Ihope it doesn't sound too
similar.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I don't remember her answer, so it's going to be a
surprise either way.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So I wish more people asked me about myself as a
human and as an individual.
My partner, lindsay, and I havebeen together since we were 18,
19 years old, so about 16 years, and that time yeah, I know
it's we were babies.
In that time we've done almosteverything this relationship.
(10:22):
I wish more people would see usand treat us as individuals
instead of one half of a couple,and I implore people, when
they're dealing with people intheir lives, to practice seeing
every person that you meet as afull and vibrant individual with
lots to give on their own, andnot just their proximity to
(10:43):
someone else.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Not that famous football player's girlfriend.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Exactly Her name's Taylor Swift.
Yeah, and she's out therekilling it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I don't remember the boyfriend's name, but whatever
you get the point.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yep me either.
We can call him Taylor Swift'sboyfriend.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I only barely remember her name.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
so Fair enough me too .
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Think about your favorite tool, whether it's an
actual physical object or a songor some sort of story you heard
once.
What is your favorite tool touse in your practice and how do
you use it?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
So, thinking about this, this one hit pretty close
to home for me.
I think that my favorite toolis communication, you know, the
ability to share perspectivewith those that I come across,
to learn from each other'smistakes and accomplishments, to
glean a glimpse into someoneelse's existence.
(11:52):
I think this is one of the mostimportant and powerful tools we
have as a species and Ipersonally believe that's why so
many people in power are tryingto attack communication whether
it be through indoctrination onsocial media or what have you
and turning that communicationinto just dogpiling and
(12:13):
attacking instead of holdingspace and understanding.
I think it is up to us torealize when we are falling into
groupthink and falling intoecho chambers and try to push
back against the temporarycomfort that those echo chambers
and groupthink affords us.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I'm just picturing people that we both know
listening to this, that's fun todo.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, I'm thinking of them going.
Yeah, that, this yeah that'sfunny.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going .
Yeah that, or yeah shut up,white dude.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
That's a lot of privilege talking, or that?
Yeah, I mean it.
It really goes both ways.
I completely understand theprivilege that I've been
afforded and I know that it'seasier for me to think in those
ways.
Yeah, I just kind of hope thatwe find a way to societally meet
(13:18):
in the middle and learn to noteven meet in the middle but
actually learn to communicateand, um, find a way to move past
all of these, um, what's theword for it?
The social conditioning thatwe've been put into, and all of
these, the right wing, um, thelike social wars that they've
(13:44):
been trying to push throughtheir media of attacking trans
individuals, of attacking, um,so many other underserved and
underprivileged groups, justbecause they can, and they can
use that as a distraction, and Ihope that we as a society can
learn to move past those thingsseconded.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I'm trying not to getderailed on rants, I really am
oh, I mean, go for it, dude Icannot I my blood pressure fair
enough I cannot right now I feelya yeah what's something you
(14:29):
wish was discussed more in themagical community.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So this one you know.
Again it might.
I hope it doesn't rufflefeathers and I hope that my
meaning comes across.
But I think something that Iwish was discussed more, and why
I wanted to bring it up, is thedangers of organization of
belief, because, when you thinkabout it, every single person
(14:57):
alive 8 billion and something ofus has their very own belief
system.
Sure, many find themselves inlarge groups of people that
think similarly, but that beliefsystem could never be a
one-for-one copy of someoneelse's.
We all have our own livedexperiences that shape our
perspective.
So even if you and I callourselves witches or pagan or
(15:17):
what have you, we will havewildly different perspectives on
what that means.
In larger organized religions,this has turned into hate,
segregation, even genocide.
This has turned into hate,segregation, even genocide.
In the magical community, weare not immune to this kind of
group thinking, and it hasturned into gatekeeping,
(15:54):
exclusion, lack of empathy andthe idea that your one in eight
billion belief system cansomehow say that someone else is
other and therefore wrong.
I think that the true power andthe chance for growth as a
species hinges on us realizingthat none of us are more
important or deserving than anyother, and we are all one
consciousness experiencingitself in billions of different
ways that little phrase drivesme crazy, okay, yeah, okay, not
(16:17):
that phrase specifically, but Iam the universe experiencing
itself or whatever that hurts mybrain.
It hurts my feelings stop yeahthink about things I I know just
let me eat these mcnuggets andleave me alone.
I mean, this will be the firsttime that I make this disclaimer
, but I don't condonecannibalism, but if we are going
(16:39):
to eat ourselves in the form ofchicken nuggets, then I think
you should be free to.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Okay, thanks, I'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I'll be here, grab me some.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
What steps have you taken to build community near
you Physically?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
near you that I feel like I'm going to be working on
for the rest of my life.
It's not something that I feelinherently good at, but, being
human, I have been hurt by thecommunity that I worked to build
(17:22):
in my 20s, so I am stilllicking those wounds, so to
speak.
But, that being said, I amstill pushing to create spaces
around me that are safe, and Ihave helped to organize
community cleanup walks where wego, walk through parks and just
pick up any trash, anythingthat's out of place, that we can
(17:45):
, I hope, to get back to doingthose.
It's been a few years we can, Ihope, to get back to doing
those.
It's been a few years.
More recently, I've beenworking on creating activities
for people to get together andget back to our roots.
What that looks like is gettingout into a field somewhere with
people that you don't know andplaying games that we played in
(18:06):
childhood.
The goal of those activities isto bring us back to the
schoolyard before the worldtaught us to be afraid and
protective, to tear down thewalls we've built and work on
letting trust and love back intoour lives.
As far as resources, I say toand this is going to be.
I'm sure no one's ever saidthis before.
(18:27):
I say to use yourself as aresource.
What do you need from society?
Ask yourself, what do you needfrom life and from your
community?
Once you've answered thatquestion, it's time to either
find that thing or create ityourself.
We are powerful beings, full ofideas and promise, and we can
do amazing things.
Also know this if you need thatthing, there are plenty of
(18:51):
other people around you thatneed it too, and if you won't do
it for yourself, try and do itfor them.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Okay, let's go into that a little bit.
I'd love to.
How do you find those people?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Put yourself out there.
Not where my perspective.
From my experience growing upin the time that I did, it seems
easiest to do that through thedifferent social media outlets
that we have.
There are different newsletters, usually for many people that
(19:43):
are at least semi-local, thatyou can speak to get your
listings into.
I've done that with a few ofthe rusted rabbits um events
that we've done, like wirewrapping workshops and stuff
like that.
Um also, you can talk to theother media outlets.
A lot of times they are lookingfor different, smaller local
(20:05):
stories to share.
Um, whether or not that'sterrifying it, it it is.
Yes, I, I agree.
And again, none of these are umone size fits all um answer.
It's just what works for you.
You can even like there arestill bulletin boards all over
(20:27):
the place that you can go andhang something up, and if it's
in a trafficked enough area thenyou might get the right eyes on
to something.
So yeah, I say, just kind oflook around you and see what
around you seems like the rightway to put yourself out there to
find those people, and a lot oftimes there's already going to
(20:50):
be different activities that arekind of lining up with what you
want to do.
So go and join those things like, for example, with my um, with
my idea of doing the kids games.
Um, I know around grand rapidswe have a lot of different
kickball leagues and baseballleagues and soccer leagues and
(21:13):
just other leagues of differentgames.
I can go out and startparticipating in those and
through participating in those Ican meet people, talk to them
about my ideas, and you neverknow what's going to come out of
that.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Have you ever tried Meetup?
I'm sure you have.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
So that is one that I really need to do more work
with.
I have dabbled, I have dabbledwith Meetup, and it seems like a
really great and useful tool.
That just somehow slips my mind100% of the time.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I look at it and I think, ooh, here's something I
really want to attend, and thenI mark it and I put it in my
calendar and then I'm afraid togo to it and I don't.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
I've done that more times than I've followed through
.
I think I've followed throughon one of those things and said
I was going to do at least 20.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
So I feel you on that .
Okay, so places people can trythat are not traditional social
media, at least not usuallytalked about.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Next door meet up.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
There's got to be more than that, I know, I know
it's got to be more than thosetwo websites that are not.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It's not meta absolutely, yeah, I, yeah, I
feel you on that and I don'tthink we're claiming to be
experts in the field, but yes, Iknow there are plenty of other
things and I would love forpeople to.
If you have ideas on thosedifferent websites, different
(23:03):
outlets that you can use, putthem in the comments.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You know what?
Yeah, I don't know that I havecomments anywhere.
I don't know how much.
I don't know how it works, butif anybody thinks it has other
resources for this specificthing, email me
youreveragewitchpodcast atgmailcom and I will add them to
a resource list at the bottom ofthis interview page on my
(23:29):
website.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I love that and I'll try to do it.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
I'll try to do it on the other stuff.
But the other stuff updates.
Weird because it feeds from myhost to feeder sites like
Spotify.
But on my website I havecontrol so I know it'll be there
.
But if you have suggestions,email them to me.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Think about your three biggest influences,
whether it's a person or an oldpet or a book you read once, and
thank them for the influencethat they have on your practice.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
All right, so this one got a little long.
I'm sure people can tell I'mreading answers that I wrote
down.
Usually I speak a lot lessmonotone, but so all of that to
say that this one got a littlelong-winded.
(24:28):
My three biggest influenceswhen I really tried, because I
had a hard time boiling thisdown into three particular
influences came down to artists,community builders and the idea
that we are all inherentlydeserving of love.
Starting with artists deservingof love.
(24:51):
Starting with artists.
Artists of all kinds haveinfluenced me by sharing their
ideas, their failures andsuccesses and preserving their
art forms in an effort to shareit and pass it on to whoever is
next in line.
I think that that is huge.
I think that it can be reallyhard to want to share what we're
doing with other people,because so many of the things in
our world are set up to befinite resources and everything
(25:17):
that has made it feel likealmost everything in our life is
a finite resource our talent,our energy, our love has kind of
become boiled down to thesethings that we feel are finite
resources and I think in someways it's true, but I think in
other ways that it's not, and Ithink that it's important as
(25:38):
artists that we try and push formore people to join into those
art forms, because it is such abeautiful way to share pain,
share loss, share grief, sharejoy, share beauty, share the
experiences that we experiencein life.
(25:58):
Community builders haveinfluenced me by showing the
importance of creating andmaintaining spaces for people of
all types to come together andshare what makes their lives
worth living.
Given how easy it is to try andisolate in today's world, I
think the reminder that we needothers and that that need is not
(26:20):
shameful whatsoever, is moreimportant now than ever.
And then the idea that we areall deserving of love has made
me who I am Someone who gives mylove freely.
Someone who doesn'tautomatically jump to gauging
whether or not someone is adanger to me when first meeting
them.
Someone who gives the trustthat I so deeply crave, fully
(26:44):
and without reservation, andsometimes to a fault.
Without reservation andsometimes to a fault.
I know I think it was it lastyear at Anahata's Purpose.
I think you were just gettingthere and I like came up to you
and I didn't realize that youwere a very hug averse person.
And I came in and I was likehey, can I have a hug and, like
(27:07):
I get it, the world isterrifying and scary and, uh, I
could, I could sense thehesitation, which understandable
, 100 understandable.
But, um, I really appreciatedyou kind of giving in to that
moment, even though you feltuncomfortable.
(27:27):
I am sorry if you feltpressured to give back into that
hug.
Um, that's one of those momentsactually.
You know the late night cringemoments when you're just sitting
there awake and you're like, ohwhy, why did I do?
That that's one of the momentsthat comes up for me.
A lot is, uh, hoping that Ididn't make you feel pressured
(27:49):
into something that you couldn'tsay no to.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
But yeah, I just realized I had been interacting
with you and then I noticed thatmy mute button was on.
Ta-da, I did mean to chime in.
Oh Anyway, I do remember that.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
So yes, I hope that that didn't make you too
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
No, I actually went last year and part of one of my
goals in going was to get morecomfortable accepting affection.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
From people who, I'm reasonably sure, are not going
to hurt me.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Right, absolutely Well, you did a damn good job.
It feels like you kicked thedoor open and accepted my hug
and my love and, yeah, I thinkyou did a damn good job.
It feels like you kicked thedoor open and accepted my hug
and my love and, yeah, I thinkyou did a damn good job with
that being your goal Absolutely,and also all of that to say I
(29:04):
do understand the privilege thatcomes into play with that
concept of loving freely and notbeing afraid and trusting.
I understand that that is aprivilege that is afforded to me
as a masculine, presentingwhite person in this world.
It is not as safe this world isnot as safe for most other
people that don't look like me.
So I understand 100% that thatis a privilege and I do not take
(29:28):
that for granted at all.
But I like I'll say it again Ireally do hope we can build a
world where it feels just aseasy and safe for everyone that
doesn't look like me and I thinkall of those things for giving
me the ability to truly seethose around me without fear and
judgment clouding myperspective.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I just want to point out one little thing.
It might be more than one, Idon't know.
I just want to point somethingout that, while I don't think
it's as scary physically, likeyou're probably not afraid that
someone is going to try tomurder you when that happens,
(30:12):
it's still scary for men to showemotion, because you're
basically raised from birth to.
The only emotion you canexpress is some kind of macho
thing, and if you show anyemotion that is not that, then
somebody's gonna come get youabsolutely that.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
That has been a big part of a big thing I've learned
through deconstructing my ownuh and reconstructing my own
gender identity is having toreally, um, focus on what was
expected of me as a person bornwith a penis and what, what, how
(31:00):
I wanted to move forward in theworld.
I absolutely agree that it'sprobably scary for all of us,
absolutely religious upbringing.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
the only time you're supposed to touch another person
is if you're having sex withthem.
You don't give hugs or accepthugs or touch on the hand or
back or whatever.
You don't hold hands unlessyou're in a romantic
relationship with that person,and that's really weird.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I know it's so stupid , it's so backwards compared to
the way our ancestors lived.
Like I and I was talking aboutthis with Lindsay a few weeks
ago and when we were kind oftalking about the questions for
her interview, just kind ofgoing into, kind of going into
(32:04):
sorry, my, my dog just ran in.
Little henry wanted to come sayhi, um, but yes, I agree that,
um, it's kind of the.
It is the goal of a capitalistsociety to make us all feel the
(32:24):
need for rugged individualism,because that's what sells
millions of cars every year,that's what sells everything
around us is the feeling that weall need to have all of these
things for ourselves, andunfortunately that has boiled
down to our relationship and ourintimacy too.
(32:47):
We are supposed to have all ofthese things for ourselves, only
for ourselves and only from oneplace or one person that's so
wild it is.
It's crazy to me good lord, okayanyway I'm happy to see society
breaking out of it, though likeI feel I feel like a lot of
(33:09):
people are starting to wake upand be like no, what, what?
Speaker 1 (33:12):
no, I'm gonna go kiss my friend's face now yeah,
please, don't nobody do that tome, please yeah, don't but I see
, yes, I get the draw absolutelydon't, but I see, yes, I get
the draw absolutely.
Uh, what advice do you have fornew practitioners?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
um.
So this one's hard for me.
I this one was kind of phonedin, I think, because I don't
feel like I have a lot of advice, but what I could kind of boil
it down to was listen, dream andtrust.
Listen when someone asks younot to do something.
(33:56):
That is a sacred and closepractice.
Listen.
Dream when you feel lost onyour path and don't know what to
do.
Dream up your own ideal pathforward and move in conjunction
with that path.
And then trust Trust yourselfand follow your intuition.
So those would be my mainpoints of advice.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Who do you think I should have on the show?
Who do?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
you think I should have on the show.
So these are a few people fromour area here in Michigan, in
the Mitten.
First off is I think Lindsaybrought her up.
Her name is Steph or StephanieFrancisco.
Her and her husband own acouple of?
(34:50):
Um food trucks.
One is called dune buggy andthe other one is called bougie
bowls.
Um, she is right, I know it'ssuch a good name.
Uh, she is amazing.
She has been doing so much workaround this area trying to build
a community, um bringing peopletogether to go on foraging
(35:12):
walks.
She's just a wealth ofknowledge when it comes to, uh,
plants, uh, flora, fauna, um,all of the stuff in our area.
Just a wealth of knowledge andjust the sweetest human possible
.
Um, also, sarah cash uh, she isthe owner of the 12th house.
It's a witchy, metaphysicalshop here in grand rapids.
(35:35):
Uh, definitely check her out.
Um, the 12th house has becomekind of a hub for witchy and
queer-identifying individuals,just a really safe place for
people in a kind of conservativearea.
West Michigan is very Dutch,very Protestant, with a lot of
(36:01):
outlying Catholic influences, soit's not always very safe
around here, but she has createda space in the 12th house that
feels safe and is just lovely,and her name was Sarah Cash.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Cool, thank you.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Was there anything else you wanted to bring up?
Any business stuff happening,any questions you had for me?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Any other things you wanted to talk about that I
didn't ask for people to movewith love whenever they can, and
the world needs more.
It needs us to love its peopleand creatures and things and
(36:54):
rocks and trees.
It needs us to move through itwith love more often.
So that's the only thing Icould really think of.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I like it, thank you.
So the last two things that Iask.
Thing number one recommendsomething to the listeners.
It doesn't have to bewitch-related at all, just
whatever you're into this weekthat you're like, hey, you
should really try.
Blah, blah, blah.
What is it?
Okay, hey?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
you should really try .
Blah, blah, blah.
What is it, okay?
Well, something that has comeacross my radar recently there
is an artist here in WestMichigan.
Her name is C, as in cat R, asin radio Warner, as in Warner
(37:49):
Broadcast, cr Warner she justput out a new tarot deck called
the Feminine Monochromatic, andit is gorgeous.
We backed the Kickstarter backin October, november, and we
just received the deck, so I'dlove to give a shout out for
that.
It is called the FeminineMonochromatic by CR Warner and
(38:14):
it is just.
I don't like to pick favorites,I'm not good at it, but it is
one of my favorite tarot decksI've ever seen.
It is just beautiful.
It's all hand illustrated byher and it's gorgeous, I think.
I think people checking thispodcast out would really love it
that's really fast turnover fora kickstarter deck yeah yeah it
(38:39):
was crazy good job yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Cr.
Good job, cr.
Yeah, she's killing it.
Crazy.
Good job yeah.
Cr.
Good job, cr.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
She's killing it.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
So the last thing I ask is please tell me a story.
It could be a story from yourlife, it could be a kid's story
you heard once.
Whatever, I just like stories.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
So I'm going to apologize beforehand for the
people listening.
So my story that came to mindwas about me being the
hide-and-seek champion of mychildhood friend group.
We would play neighborhood-widegames of hide-and-seek and I
(39:24):
had a spot that no one everfound.
It was in my neighbor's garageand I think all of the other
kids were too scared to open thedoor without permission.
That's cheating, yeah, probably, but it's also why I became the
champion.
So, um and uh, one day we wereplaying and I went to my spot
(39:51):
that I had never been found inand I was there easily two or
three hours.
Um had not heard any commotion.
I finally, you know kind of waslike they've probably given up.
I came out and of course theyhad given up, looking for me
probably an hour beforehand, and, um, unfortunately, during that
(40:11):
two or three hours I had areally bad poop hit me and I was
too committed to winning thegame that I I tried to hold it.
That didn't quite work out.
So there I was, hidden in myneighbor's garage, dropping trow
my 12-year-old body, no longerable to hold my poop in.
(40:39):
And I think of this whenever Iworry that I won't be able to
commit to something important inmy life and just as a follow-up
to that story, I did go backand clean it up and I never
spoke of that predicament untilI was a much older person.
That's dedication.
Yeah, I mean, if I got onething.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
That is not what I was expecting to hear at all.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, so you've met Mike.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
So, mike, thank you for the story absolutely my
pleasure do you want to craft aspell with me?
I would love to okay so I hadpeople people you know as well
as I know them just list offthings and I wrote them down and
(41:48):
then I'm going to pull them out.
But before we do that, whatspell are we doing?
What are we working on?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So my I would love the spell to focus on
transmutation, to use somethingthat we find in an unexpected
way, and I would love to imploreother people to try this
(42:16):
themselves, to go out intonature wherever they feel
comfortable and find something.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
To hear more of the members only episode, head over
to crepuscularconjurationcom.
The monthly magic tier willgive you access to the monthly
Magic Marco Polo group, theprivate Facebook group and
access to the written monthlyspells.
There's also CrepuscularConjurations giving you bonus
podcast episodes, coloring pages, guided meditations,
(42:42):
spellcrafting videos, printabledownloads and a lot more.
The free Witchy Wondermentlevel will give you a little
sample of everything I justmentioned.
You can also visit my shop,clever Kim's Curios, to get
spell boxes, one at a time or bymonthly subscription,
intentional handcrafted jewelrythat I make especially for
witches and handmade altar tools.
(43:03):
You can even listen to the fullyour Average Witch podcast
library, including show notesand transcripts.
Check it out atcrepuscularconjurationcom.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of your Average Witch.
You can find us all around theinternet on Instagram at your
Average Witch Podcast,facebookcom, slash groups, slash
(43:37):
hivehouse atwwwyouraveragewitchcom.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next Tuesday.
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