In this conversation, Dr. Margo Lowy discusses the complexities of motherhood, emphasizing the importance of embracing the messiness and normalizing the feelings that come with it. They explore the role of community support, the significance of maternal ambivalence, and the need for mothers to forgive themselves for not being perfect. The discussion advocates for a more compassionate understanding of the motherhood experience.
Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Welcome to your child is normal, the podcast that
(00:02):
empowers parents with reliablescience backed guidance on
Childhood Health andDevelopment. I'm your host, Dr
Jessica Hochman, a pediatricianand mom of three, here to
provide you with quality adviceand reassurance so you can spend
less time worrying and more timefocused on connecting with your
kids and enjoying your so youcan spend so you can spend less
(00:23):
time worrying, so you can spendless time worrying and more time
focused on connecting with yourkids and enjoying your parenting
and enjoying your parentingexperience as much as possible.
I'm so happy to have thisconversation with you. I really
enjoyed reading your book. Ithink it's very, very relatable.
Thank you. Thanks, Jessica. I'mreally happy to be here, and any
(00:46):
opportunity that I have tospread My Word, it's very
important to me. There's so muchtaboo and secrecy around
mothering. My work is really toexpose this, and, as you say, to
normalize it. And we all havethese experiences, but we really
find it difficult to talk aboutthem truthfully, and I think we
(01:08):
paper over a lot of them, and Ireally want to bring this out
and become more comfortable withtalking about this. And I am a
mother of three, but I'm also agrandmother, so I've seen, I've
seen a lot over my years, and Ireally, I'm very passionate
about changing, really changingthe narrative around mothering.
(01:30):
Did you go through somethingpersonally that inspired you to
write this book? I'm apsychotherapist, and it was more
I'm sure that in my room, therewas always what I call an empty
seat reserved for the mother,which means she was always in
the room, obviously notphysically there, but
emotionally there. And so then Idecided that I wanted to do a
(01:53):
PhD on mothering, and I wantedto find an area of mothering
that wasn't really talked abouta lot, because there's a lot of
work, as you know, on mothering,but I wanted to find something
that really inspired me and tookmy interest, and I found this
book by someone called Dr RosicaParker, and It was called torn
(02:17):
in two, and it talked aboutmaternal ambivalence. And it
really spoke to me. I've adaptedwhat she said she What she said
is that maternal ambivalence isthe mother's loving and hating
feelings towards her child andthe hate, I think that mothers
do have hating moments, but it'sa little extreme. So I in this
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book, I talked more aboutencouraging mothers to talk
about all their feelings ofmothering, not to make it
binary, not to say I have angeror happiness, not that I have
had dark feelings or lightfeelings. It's for to encourage
(03:02):
mothers to talk about all theirfeelings, and in particular, not
to disregard the dark feelings,the difficult feelings, the
disturbing feelings, the messyfeelings of mothering, because I
believe that they are sovaluable, and they transform our
mothering. It's like thosemoments that a child does
(03:27):
something and like we'rereminded, or they melt us in our
hearts. Think we've all hadthose moments ever since
I was a child, I've alwayswanted to be a mother, and I'm
sure many people can relate tome when I say that, and I think
your book was definitelyrelatable for my feelings,
because I remember when I becamepregnant, I did not like feeling
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pregnant. I felt nauseous, Ifelt tired, I couldn't do the
things that I normally like todo. I'm a very active person.
I'm not a homebody. I like to beout and about, and all of a
sudden, my life was totallydisrupted. I wasn't feeling good
and so and I felt I felt badabout that. You know, because I
meet a lot of mothers that lovebeing pregnant. They love that
(04:09):
someone opens the door for them.
They love feeling the babyinside them. And I remember that
my first experience of enteringmotherhood was not what I
expected, and I felt bad aboutthat. And I have to say, now to
this day, I love being a mother.
I'm so glad I did it, but theexperience has not always been
roses, and this isreally what I talk about in my
book, because we have theseexpectations about pregnancy and
(04:32):
about mothering, and it puts themother into a spot. Because, as
you said, you kind of think,well, I should be feeling this
way, but I'm not. And it'sreally a wrestle and an inner
struggle for the mother, becauseone already feels that, that
you're an insufficient or a badmother and what. And one of the
(04:55):
things I talk about a. Lot inthe book, and it's kind of
related to this is mothering isan experience. I think it's, I
call it a messy, interruptedexperience, and I think that
that is a better way of sayingit, rather than it's a
wonderful, fantastic, smoothexperience. It's not, it's
(05:16):
messy. And as you say it'sinterrupted because you think
it's going to be a certain way.
It's not. I think if, if thatwas the message that mums got
before they even got pregnant,it might be helpful that it's
that it's not all this peachesand cream. No, it's not. It's
(05:38):
It's messy. It can bedespairing, it disrupts, but
it's also the most wonderfulexperience. So what I'm trying
to do is to make both sidesimportant, not to just take one,
because my way of thinking aboutis, I think I humanize mothering
when it's seen as somethingperfect, that's not what it is.
(06:02):
No, no. And I agree with thatconcept. I think, I think it's
important to realize and torecognize that it's okay to have
both thoughts at the same timeand have space for both feelings
to be true. So you can reallylove being a mother. Want
nothing more than to care foryour children, and also you can
resent the feelings ofmotherhood. You can, you can,
(06:24):
you can struggle with the factthat your life is totally
different after having children.
That is something that Icompletely relate to. I love
being a mother. I want nothingmore than to raise my children,
raise them well, spend time withthem, but at the same time, I
also like taking a break fromthem. I love going to the gym. I
love being with my friendssometimes. So I think, I think
what you're talking about isreally helpful for moms to not
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feel so much shame and guiltaround having both of those
feelings. That'sright, and I think that it's not
really in our stratosphere inthat way quite yet for moms to
feel your word okay, that it'sokay, it's and it's actually
more than okay. It's actuallynecessary, because to be a good
mum, or, as I say in my book,and enough mum, we need to be
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able to do the things that thatmake us feel good.
Yes, I love the chapter in yourbook where you talk about the
myth of perfection that, yes,striving towards perfection just
isn't realistic. It's not it'sactually not possible. And
thinking in those terms will setus up for failure and
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disappointment, definitely.
And that's I that's that'srelated to the maternal ideal
that, and it's such a high bar,and we'll never reach that. The
issue is, we're kind of not toldabout all this when we're going
to be mothers. I mean, you know,you talk about, you know, as a
little girl, there was nothingmore that you wanted, and it's
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like you're pushing the pram,the dolly pram, and you're
thinking that this is going tobe the most wonderful thing, and
in a sense, that's going tocomplete you, but it can
complete you, or it doescomplete you, but in an entirely
different way. And one of thereally important concepts is
also that mothering is alsoreally making mistakes and
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fixing them up, and that's howwe learn. We don't learn if we
don't make mistakes,I have to say, I am very
grateful to my own mother. Ifyou fast forward now, I'm 44,
years old. We are very close. Icall my mom probably every day,
sometimes more than once a day.
We're very, very close. Butthroughout my childhood, she
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definitely made it clear thathaving children was not easy for
her. She talked about how hardit was to go through labor. I
heard those stories all the timethat it was very uncomfortable.
I agree. Gift. I agree. Now youcan see it as a gift.
Now I can see it. She would sayto me, of course, it's the best
thing I ever did. I would neverregret it. I love being a
mother. I so. I'm so grateful tohave my three children, but
(09:00):
having a baby was very painful.
It was a really hard experience.
I did not like breastfeeding. Idid not breastfeed. She and my
dad would go on vacationstogether without the children.
They they were very clear thatthey needed that time. They
needed some break without thekids. And so as an adult, I look
back and I'm very I'm very gladthat they knew what they needed.
(09:21):
And I'm very glad that my momwas honest with me, because now
my mom gave me that blueprint.
She talked to me clearly abouther experience in motherhood.
I mean, that's that's quiteincredible, and I don't know how
usual it is, but in a sense, sheshe's given you permission to
have maternal ambivalence, andyou can see that it can, it is a
(09:43):
transformative experience, ifyou can see both sides, because
if you shut off the difficultfeelings, it's not real. It's
not it's not human, and anyhands on mothering is. Is hard.
I mean, you've gotta right,really get down to the messy
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parts, whether, whether we'retalking about new mothering,
when you're up all night with afussy baby, and it's just
excruciating when you haven'twhen you haven't slept, and you
have to get up the next day andyou have to function, and it's
really hard and and then you gothrough the stages of when
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they're a toddler. I thoughtabout the other day that
experience, say, at the mall,when you look, when you lose
sight of your child for thatminute, we all have those
experiences. And you're grippedwith terror, and you're
thinking, how could I take myeyes off the child, like for one
minute? And how, how could I dothat? And I told that child not
(10:48):
to move, and they moved. Andthen you've got that terror, and
you're looking and you don'tknow what to do. And then this,
then I I think of this story ofof seeing a little girl coming,
skipping along back to me in thehand of my mother, like she's so
proud she's with the mother. Andthen you like the relief and how
(11:10):
fabulous it is. But then you'rekind of shocked by these
feelings, these feelings of, howcould I felt? That that
resentment, that fury, and thenthose feelings of fury melt you
and your love becomes stronger.
We all have those moments, andthat's what ambivalence is. It's
that melting, that surge of lovethat keeps going forever.
(11:35):
I follow your point. I can seethis. It's true, absolutely. I'm
sure all of us listening. Ifyou've been a mom long enough,
or a parent for long enough, youhave had moments where you're
scared you can't find your kids,for example, and it's true,
maybe those moments do help usor remind us how much and how
valuable our relationships arewith our children.
(11:56):
And in fact, it doesn't stopwhen they're little and
continues like when you have anadult child, and they forget to
call you and it's two o'clock inthe morning, and you think back
to when you first when you haveyour baby, you're up at two
o'clock at least, you know wherethe baby is, you know. And I
talk a lot in my book aboutseparating future from your
(12:17):
children when they're older, andbeing able to respect them as
adults, and kind of to standback and let them make their own
mistakes as as adults with theirown children. And how I talk
about how proud I am I've gotthree totally different children
that have taken on three totallydifferent paths, and how lucky I
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am to be able to watch them andto really carefully not judge
them, because you don't want tojudge your children. You want
them to have their voyage intoparenthood in their own way, and
how wonderful it is to do that,and how you know they'll make
(12:59):
mistakes the same way as we did,and I did and you didn't, that's
okay, and that's what makes ushuman. We have grandparents
that are very close to ourchildren, and I feel so grateful
when they don't judge thingsthat we do. They may be thinking
things, and I'm always gratefulthat they don't share them out
loud.
Yeah, well, it's, it's theparents, the mother's time. And
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I think when we're talking aboutjudgment here, there's a social
judgment, an ideal that it'slike when you talked about your
parents went away, even though,like, maybe their friends were
thinking it was terrible. Well,you know what? It's every mum,
every every relationship, youneed time away if you're lucky
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enough to get it, and it's soimportant, because it refuels
you and renews you, and that'swhat we need as moms to be able
to be renewed. And there's somany ways of being renewed as a
mother, and there's also waysthat it's it's so difficult
hands on being a mother, becauseit is messy and it's exhausting.
(14:06):
Yes,I really respect that my parents
knew what they needed, because Ido think that when you have that
time to recharge, you become abetter parent, and when you're a
better parent, that's better foryour children, much better for
children to be around parentswith energy that are in good
moods, as opposed to parentsthat are stressed. Don't have
time for their kids, don't haveenergy for their kids. So I
agree. I think it's reallyimportant that people honor what
(14:28):
they what they need.
Yes, you bring you bring inanother really important part of
my work, which is laughter. AndI relate that to flow as a
mother. If we can flow with ourmothering, you know, as opposed
to being rigid and kind ofstrangled by the ideals, we're
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going to be better mothers. Flowis being able to laugh, being
able to laugh at ourselves, andbeing able to stop. For a moment
like to smell the roses, even atthe most difficult time.
I when I read that in your bookthe importance of humor, I
couldn't agree more. And I wasthinking about there was a time
when I took my kids to thefarmers market, and my youngest
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hadn't had, you know, she wentto the bathroom. I changed her
diaper. I had only brought twodiapers with me, and then she
went to the bathroom again, andit was a big mess. Poop was
everywhere. I had to take offher clothes. It got on me, and
it was very stressful. I'maround a lot of people in a
crowded area at the farmersmarket, and I remember my older
kid, who was probably five atthe time, she started laughing,
(15:37):
like, Mommy, you have poop allover your shirt. There's poop
all over her, and it immediatelytransformed this very stressful
feeling into, you know what?
This is funny. This is a funnytime. We're going to fix this.
It's not so bad. I'll get home,I'll clean her off, I'll wash my
clothes. But this is a funnymoment, and so I do, I do,
completely agree that humor canchange stress into a good
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experience.
And in that, in that scenario,you were open to making it
humorous and to going with yourflow, because often we can't,
often it just we take it muchtoo seriously. But there was
something in that, there wassomething in the interaction
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that you were able to maybe stopand think, think for a second
and transform it. And that'sthat's a wonderful asset to
have. And I really encourage allmums like to make a space to
think how serious is this, andam I going to change it by being
annoyed and irritated andstressed. Oh, this is an
(16:45):
opportunity to make this a funnystory that we can recall
forever.
Yes. And I also remember beinggrateful because there were
people around me that looked atme and I thought, maybe they're
going to judge. And they lookedand they said, up, been there,
done that. It's Yes, yes. Youknow, they gave me a smile, they
gave me some encouragement. AndI do think there's also
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something to society, beingforgiving of each other, giving
the parent the Okay, been there.
I understand what you're goingthrough. It's okay. We're gonna
get through it. And so I do, Ido agree that overall, if we can
add humor light in the momentsof child rearing is better for
everybody, yes,like that light and the moments
of mothering or parenting, Imean getting back to your to
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your comment about if there'scommunity around that are
supportive, that's that's somuch better, and it doesn't
always happen. And there's alsothe sense of being able to
forgive ourselves. I thinkthat's really important, and it
doesn't come from like that.
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There's a process and a thoughtbeing thoughtful about forgiving
oneself, and that's alsoconnected to flow, as opposed to
being rigid, you know, I'vethought a lot about rigidity and
how it really makes it difficultto be a mother when you are
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rigid, when you've got theserules that you think that you
need to observe all the time,and There's no flow. And we
really need flow, because we'readapting all the time. If we're
not flowing, we're not adapting,we're not going to be able to
fix our mistakes, we're notgoing to be able to laugh at
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them, and we're not going to beable to have the sense that I'm
going to do what I need to do tobe the enough mother that I can
be.
I'm grateful for my motheringexperience, because I could see
the difference from my firstchild to my third child. When my
first child I felt thatrigidity. I felt that I had to
be perfect with breastfeeding,with her sleep schedule. Yes, I
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remember I couldn't go tobirthday parties with my first
child because the birthday partyfell exactly during her nap
time, everything was rigid. Butby the time I had a third kid, I
remember thinking, you know, didwe, did she nap yet today? I'm
not sure, or did she, did shehave a good, balanced meal? Yet,
I don't remember. And you justYes, and so I I'm so grateful
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that I had that experience whereI could see that had a much less
stressful experience with her,and she's okay. It's right now.
Fast forward, she's nine yearsold, and she's doing fine. She's
in school. She has friends,that's right and that, and they
don't have to be so, so sticky,so rigid,
and they teach us. Every childthat we have teaches us so much
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about life and about mothering,and yeah, you had no choice. You
had to that. You had to adapt.
Otherwise you would be at home.
You would be at home all thetime without, without being able
to get out. I mean, my childrenare now. My oldest is 44 my next
one's 35 and. My next one's 27 Ihad secondary infertility
(20:04):
between my first two, and I wasvery lucky to have the second
and the third one. But I thinkthat you you for me, I was very
rigid with the first experience.
We had a lot of fun, but Icouldn't tolerate that. I might
have messy feelings. And I havetwo sons, and my daughter taught
me about the messy feelings, andshe taught me to laugh, and she
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taught me that it was actuallyokay. And the the irony is, once
you once you can laugh about it,or once you can flow with it,
you actually are a better mum oran enough mum. And that's the
irony, and it's very hard to getto that, I think, with the first
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children, because you're on ayou're on a timetable, you just
have to adapt. I mean, thesecond and the third, they just
have to drag along, and they'reokay. And as you said, your nine
year old actually made it toschool, and she's actually got
some friends.
Yes, no, absolutely. Somethingthat I think about a lot is, as
(21:07):
a pediatrician, I talk to moms.
I talk to a lot of new moms whoexperience a lot of anxiety, a
lot of sadness. They havepostpartum blues. They are very
real, very pervasive, and Ithink a lot of people don't want
to admit that they have thosefeelings. And I strongly believe
that the more community you havearound you, the more support you
have around you, the more thatwe can let moms know that these
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feelings are okay, expected,normal. I do think it's better
for everybody, and I think ifyou can validate those feelings,
yes, it's better for everybody.
It's it's better for the mother.
It's better for her husband,it's better for the children. I
do think that by validatingthese feelings, it really does
make it really does make itbetter.
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And I think for a lot of mums,it's hard to because you're
absolutely time poor, it's hardto really know what's going on.
And I really, I really encouragemums to look at my book when
they get a chance, and to evento read it in whatever order.
And it's really, it reallygives, I think it really gives
(22:13):
them more realnotion of what mothering is a
human It's human.
What I really appreciate aboutyour book is that it it really
validates those feelings, thatyou may really love your
children, but it's okay not tolove all aspects of mother.
No, no. It's really hard. Imean, when you're tired and, as
you say, when they've when theypoo everywhere and it's messy,
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it's hard.
I remember being very excited tohave my first kid. I was in
residency at the time, working80 plus hours a week, and I
fantasize this time where Iwould have a baby that slept all
day. I would be off for a fewmonths before going back to
work. And honestly, it wasreally I was I was in for a rude
awakening, because my first bornhad a severe case of colic. She
(23:00):
cried all the time. It wasreally, really hard to console
her. She really was not a goodsleeper at night, and I remember
feeling really bad about notwanting to be with her. I felt
tremendous relief. I remembervery clearly the first day that
I took her to daycare and I wasable to pay somebody to take her
for the day. I felt so guilty atthe relief I felt that I wasn't
(23:22):
with her, and I thought they'regonna call me any second,
telling me she's so colicky, shecries so much, we also can't
take her. But they never calledme, and I felt bad that I was I
was so happy to not be with herfor eight hours. But fast
forward, I want to say that. Youknow, she outgrew that stage. I
adore my children. I adore her.
Now. As a pediatrician, I'm verygrateful for that experience,
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because when I have new momsthat come in and they tell me
similar feelings when they havecolicky kids or they really
don't enjoy that newborn stageparticularly, and I can relate
to them. Yes, I can tell that itgives them relief, it gives them
comfort, that we can that thatthey're not alone in those
feelings. So I do think, inhindsight, it was a great
(24:07):
experience for me, because I dothink my experience has actually
helped other mothers, and forthat, I'm grateful.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I alwaysthink that our kids teach us
everything every a lot, and weget the children that we're
meant to get. And I, I thinkthat your vulnerability is so
important, especially as apediatrician, and if you can, if
(24:30):
you can understand that, thatopens a whole sense of self,
forgiveness, for for the for themums that you see, and also a
different way of looking at it.
It's like, it's okay. I canactually say that I don't like
this phase and that I'm tiredand that it's exhausting, and
that I'm happy to put for themto go to someone else so I can
(24:53):
get myself back on track. Andthis, this is like, such a new
narrative. That it's like fanfantastic and, and it's healthy
and,and I also am so grateful for
those in my life that helpedwith my kids when they were
little. My mother in law was inparticular, was very involved. I
remember she would come over andwatch the kids for a couple
(25:14):
hours and let me leave myapartment. And I do think those
experiences also help you have agreater sense of appreciation
and love for others in yourlife. Yes, and
I've no doubt that you wouldprobably have told your mother
in law that you appreciated her.
So I know, yeah, it's, it's awonderful thing. It's, it flows,
(25:35):
yes, I mean, still to this day,she listens to this podcast. So
I I can say with great sincerityand love that her involvement
with my kids has definitely beena wonderful experience, because
I know it works. It works in allrespects. You know, she My kids
love her. She loves my kids. Ilove her. I love my kids. So I
feel like everybody benefits. Soagain, just just sort of
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reiterating the point that themore support we have, I do think
my overall sense with maternalambivalence is that, because
it's a real feeling, and it's areally a normal feeling, the
more we talk about it, the morewe ask for help, the better it
is for everybody, the better theoverall experiences. So please,
moms, anyone listening who'sstruggling, ask for help. I
(26:17):
mean, people like to feelhelpful. I think,
I think also what this whatyou're saying. I don't know what
people think about thisstatement, but it does take a
village to raise a child. Itdoes, really does. And this also
reminds me of the roles of theFather, and how important the
father is to the partner, to ifit to, if it's the wife or the
(26:42):
partner, because they I thinkthese days, fathers are much
more involved with theirchildren, and it's like and I
think the mothers possibly havelet go of, hopefully, of their
perfection, because if you'vegot someone to help you, they're
actually allowed to do it intheir way. You don't need as the
(27:03):
mother, you can just go and bein peace, and you don't need to
ring up. Are you doing this? Areyou doing that? Like with your
mother in law? What food are yougiving or you don't need to,
like, be a policeman. You justneed to let them do what they
do. The kids are going to be allright. They're going to survive
an afternoon with the father ora weekend with the grandparent,
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and the kid is going to knowthat they can get away with this
with the grandparent. They'renot going to get away with it
with the mother. But it's that'salso so important to be able to
give the help, the people thathelp you, the possibility to do
it their way. And you mum, welike as mums, we actually like
to control, and that's rigid. Weactually need to let go of that
(27:49):
and let other people help us.
And it goes back to what youreally said, get people to help
because they like it, and it'sgood for the child. It's good
for the child to have otherpeople around, loving them
absolutelynow you're reminding me when my
when my kids were really little,my husband. He's a very involved
husband. He loves being afather. I'm very grateful to
(28:11):
him, but he definitely didthings in a different way than I
would do them, and I do think itreally helped to laugh about it.
So for example, the buttons onthose onesies are so difficult
those but those buttons, youhave to line them up exactly.
And he didn't care. Oftentimesthe kids would leave the house
the buttons were half on or not.
I love it. And I would have adiaper bag, for example, that
(28:32):
was packed with everything youneeded, diaper cream, extra
diapers, extra change ofclothes. And I remember once he
walked out the door with our sixmonth old with just a diaper in
his back pocket, no diaper bag.
And I said, Don't you need thebag that everybody has. And he
said, what for? I'll figure itout. You know, I got what I
really need, just a diaper. Youknow, it's funny. We could laugh
about it, that we'd figure itout. And he did figure it out.
(28:53):
He's like, if something happens,I'll figure it out. And he was
right, and the kids are okay, soI do think you're right that
being exposed to differentstyles that aren't so rigid,
it's helpful for everybody.
Yeah,and I think as moms, we need to,
we need to work on that, becausewe do like to do it our way. And
I think we often, with the firstchild, you've got these plans,
(29:13):
and also you really want to doit yourself. You want to, you
want to prove in a way, thatthat you're that you're enough,
or that you're doing a good job.
Because it go and this, for allof us as moms, it goes to the
center of our being, that wecan, that we that we're doing a
(29:34):
job that we're proud of, andsometimes we can, we can have
moments that we I nailed, that.
That's fantastic, but it'sreally we're not going to be
like that all the time, and wehave to be really forgiving of
ourselves and that, rememberthat maternal ambivalence also
is something that's positive andthat's transformative. Yeah, and
(29:58):
this takes me back to the thatthe word ambivalence is really
misunderstood. People confuse itwith indifference, which is
actually the opposite, becauseit's a not caring. It's just
being aware of all the differentfeelings and and that the
difficult ones are difficult,but they're valuable, and they
(30:20):
renew our love. And I just, Ireally want to stress this part,
that maternal ambivalence issomething that we haven't
included in the maternallanguage, and it's so vital.
Yes, I agree. I think it's sovital for people to know that
there's space for all feelings,that you can love your baby, but
(30:42):
you can also struggle with beinga mother, that you can feel how
hard it is. And I think the morethat we recognize this, the more
that we admit this to ourselves,the better the experience is
overall,yeah, and the better for other
mothers. Because when, if, whenthis when and if this is known,
and I am so determined to makethis known, then other mothers
will say, yeah, that's okay.
(31:05):
That's how I feel. You identifywith it, and when, when you read
it, or when you hear it, youkind of can get a warm glow,
yeah, that's what I'm goingthrough, and I'm okay and
enjoying my best. And that'sreally what it's about. It's
it's about the mother being ableto feel that she's doing the
best that she can at thatmoment, that it's not always
(31:26):
going to be like that, thatshe's going to make mistakes and
she'll fix them up.
I really believe that we're alldoing the best that we can with
the tools that we have, thatwe're not meant to be perfect.
We're just doing the best thatwe can definitely Now I'm
curious for yourself, now thatyou've spent a lot of time
thinking about maternalambivalence, now that you're a
grandmother yourself, do youwish that you have that you had
(31:49):
done anything differently whenyou were a mother?
Definitely, and I've got, thisis my second book. I wrote a I
did my PhD on maternalambivalence. That was what I
studied. That was in a bit fromabout 2012 so I'm really very
invested in this area. And Iwrote a book from my PhD, which
was more academic, and I endedit on very near the end of I
(32:10):
wrote, I wrote a list of thingsthat I wish I would have known.
And it's really what we've beentalking about today. It's being
able to laugh a little bit, tostop and not to worry about the
little things. And I wish Iwould have known that it was
actually a messy, interruptedexperience. And I wish I would
have known that I can't be aperfect mother, and we need to
(32:35):
concentrate on our humanity andnot being perfect. It kind of
takes you away from the mainfocus and that we're human.
I know that your work is goingto be so helpful to so many
people. So thank you so much.
And can you tell everybody aboutyour book and where they can
find it?
Yes, okay, my book's beingreleased on the 25th of March.
And if you go to my website, DrMargo lowy.com you'll find a
(33:00):
little bit about me, a littlebit about my work, my book, and
I am so passionate about thistopic and carving this space for
all of us as mothers. And reallyit goes further than that,
because mothers are really thebasis of society. And, you know,
we we rear our children, andwhat's more important than that?
(33:23):
So listen. Thank you so much forfor inviting me on your podcast,
and thank you also for your workthat you're doing with young
mothers older mothers. It's justreally important. So thank you.
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review,
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
(33:44):
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask you.
Welcome to your child is normal, the podcast that
(00:02):
empowers parents with reliablescience backed guidance on
Childhood Health andDevelopment. I'm your host, Dr
Jessica Hochman, a pediatricianand mom of three, here to
provide you with quality adviceand reassurance so you can spend
less time worrying and more timefocused on connecting with your
kids and enjoying your so youcan spend so you can spend less
(00:23):
time worrying, so you can spendless time worrying and more time
focused on connecting with yourkids and enjoying your parenting
and enjoying your parentingexperience as much as possible.
I'm so happy to have thisconversation with you. I really
enjoyed reading your book. Ithink it's very, very relatable.
Thank you. Thanks, Jessica. I'mreally happy to be here, and any
(00:46):
opportunity that I have tospread My Word, it's very
important to me. There's so muchtaboo and secrecy around
mothering. My work is really toexpose this, and, as you say, to
normalize it. And we all havethese experiences, but we really
find it difficult to talk aboutthem truthfully, and I think we
(01:08):
paper over a lot of them, and Ireally want to bring this out
and become more comfortable withtalking about this. And I am a
mother of three, but I'm also agrandmother, so I've seen, I've
seen a lot over my years, and Ireally, I'm very passionate
about changing, really changingthe narrative around mothering.
(01:30):
Did you go through somethingpersonally that inspired you to
write this book? I'm apsychotherapist, and it was more
I'm sure that in my room, therewas always what I call an empty
seat reserved for the mother,which means she was always in
the room, obviously notphysically there, but
emotionally there. And so then Idecided that I wanted to do a
(01:53):
PhD on mothering, and I wantedto find an area of mothering
that wasn't really talked abouta lot, because there's a lot of
work, as you know, on mothering,but I wanted to find something
that really inspired me and tookmy interest, and I found this
book by someone called Dr RosicaParker, and It was called torn
(02:17):
in two, and it talked aboutmaternal ambivalence. And it
really spoke to me. I've adaptedwhat she said she What she said
is that maternal ambivalence isthe mother's loving and hating
feelings towards her child andthe hate, I think that mothers
do have hating moments, but it'sa little extreme. So I in this
(02:41):
book, I talked more aboutencouraging mothers to talk
about all their feelings ofmothering, not to make it
binary, not to say I have angeror happiness, not that I have
had dark feelings or lightfeelings. It's for to encourage
(03:02):
mothers to talk about all theirfeelings, and in particular, not
to disregard the dark feelings,the difficult feelings, the
disturbing feelings, the messyfeelings of mothering, because I
believe that they are sovaluable, and they transform our
mothering. It's like thosemoments that a child does
(03:27):
something and like we'rereminded, or they melt us in our
hearts. Think we've all hadthose moments ever since
I was a child, I've alwayswanted to be a mother, and I'm
sure many people can relate tome when I say that, and I think
your book was definitelyrelatable for my feelings,
because I remember when I becamepregnant, I did not like feeling
(03:48):
pregnant. I felt nauseous, Ifelt tired, I couldn't do the
things that I normally like todo. I'm a very active person.
I'm not a homebody. I like to beout and about, and all of a
sudden, my life was totallydisrupted. I wasn't feeling good
and so and I felt I felt badabout that. You know, because I
meet a lot of mothers that lovebeing pregnant. They love that
(04:09):
someone opens the door for them.
They love feeling the babyinside them. And I remember that
my first experience of enteringmotherhood was not what I
expected, and I felt bad aboutthat. And I have to say, now to
this day, I love being a mother.
I'm so glad I did it, but theexperience has not always been
roses, and this isreally what I talk about in my
book, because we have theseexpectations about pregnancy and
(04:32):
about mothering, and it puts themother into a spot. Because, as
you said, you kind of think,well, I should be feeling this
way, but I'm not. And it'sreally a wrestle and an inner
struggle for the mother, becauseone already feels that, that
you're an insufficient or a badmother and what. And one of the
(04:55):
things I talk about a. Lot inthe book, and it's kind of
related to this is mothering isan experience. I think it's, I
call it a messy, interruptedexperience, and I think that
that is a better way of sayingit, rather than it's a
wonderful, fantastic, smoothexperience. It's not, it's
(05:16):
messy. And as you say it'sinterrupted because you think
it's going to be a certain way.
It's not. I think if, if thatwas the message that mums got
before they even got pregnant,it might be helpful that it's
that it's not all this peachesand cream. No, it's not. It's
(05:38):
It's messy. It can bedespairing, it disrupts, but
it's also the most wonderfulexperience. So what I'm trying
to do is to make both sidesimportant, not to just take one,
because my way of thinking aboutis, I think I humanize mothering
when it's seen as somethingperfect, that's not what it is.
(06:02):
No, no. And I agree with thatconcept. I think, I think it's
important to realize and torecognize that it's okay to have
both thoughts at the same timeand have space for both feelings
to be true. So you can reallylove being a mother. Want
nothing more than to care foryour children, and also you can
resent the feelings ofmotherhood. You can, you can,
(06:24):
you can struggle with the factthat your life is totally
different after having children.
That is something that Icompletely relate to. I love
being a mother. I want nothingmore than to raise my children,
raise them well, spend time withthem, but at the same time, I
also like taking a break fromthem. I love going to the gym. I
love being with my friendssometimes. So I think, I think
what you're talking about isreally helpful for moms to not
(06:47):
feel so much shame and guiltaround having both of those
feelings. That'sright, and I think that it's not
really in our stratosphere inthat way quite yet for moms to
feel your word okay, that it'sokay, it's and it's actually
more than okay. It's actuallynecessary, because to be a good
mum, or, as I say in my book,and enough mum, we need to be
(07:10):
able to do the things that thatmake us feel good.
Yes, I love the chapter in yourbook where you talk about the
myth of perfection that, yes,striving towards perfection just
isn't realistic. It's not it'sactually not possible. And
thinking in those terms will setus up for failure and
(07:31):
disappointment, definitely.
And that's I that's that'srelated to the maternal ideal
that, and it's such a high bar,and we'll never reach that. The
issue is, we're kind of not toldabout all this when we're going
to be mothers. I mean, you know,you talk about, you know, as a
little girl, there was nothingmore that you wanted, and it's
(07:53):
like you're pushing the pram,the dolly pram, and you're
thinking that this is going tobe the most wonderful thing, and
in a sense, that's going tocomplete you, but it can
complete you, or it doescomplete you, but in an entirely
different way. And one of thereally important concepts is
also that mothering is alsoreally making mistakes and
(08:16):
fixing them up, and that's howwe learn. We don't learn if we
don't make mistakes,I have to say, I am very
grateful to my own mother. Ifyou fast forward now, I'm 44,
years old. We are very close. Icall my mom probably every day,
sometimes more than once a day.
We're very, very close. Butthroughout my childhood, she
(08:37):
definitely made it clear thathaving children was not easy for
her. She talked about how hardit was to go through labor. I
heard those stories all the timethat it was very uncomfortable.
I agree. Gift. I agree. Now youcan see it as a gift.
Now I can see it. She would sayto me, of course, it's the best
thing I ever did. I would neverregret it. I love being a
mother. I so. I'm so grateful tohave my three children, but
(09:00):
having a baby was very painful.
It was a really hard experience.
I did not like breastfeeding. Idid not breastfeed. She and my
dad would go on vacationstogether without the children.
They they were very clear thatthey needed that time. They
needed some break without thekids. And so as an adult, I look
back and I'm very I'm very gladthat they knew what they needed.
(09:21):
And I'm very glad that my momwas honest with me, because now
my mom gave me that blueprint.
She talked to me clearly abouther experience in motherhood.
I mean, that's that's quiteincredible, and I don't know how
usual it is, but in a sense, sheshe's given you permission to
have maternal ambivalence, andyou can see that it can, it is a
(09:43):
transformative experience, ifyou can see both sides, because
if you shut off the difficultfeelings, it's not real. It's
not it's not human, and anyhands on mothering is. Is hard.
I mean, you've gotta right,really get down to the messy
(10:04):
parts, whether, whether we'retalking about new mothering,
when you're up all night with afussy baby, and it's just
excruciating when you haven'twhen you haven't slept, and you
have to get up the next day andyou have to function, and it's
really hard and and then you gothrough the stages of when
(10:24):
they're a toddler. I thoughtabout the other day that
experience, say, at the mall,when you look, when you lose
sight of your child for thatminute, we all have those
experiences. And you're grippedwith terror, and you're
thinking, how could I take myeyes off the child, like for one
minute? And how, how could I dothat? And I told that child not
(10:48):
to move, and they moved. Andthen you've got that terror, and
you're looking and you don'tknow what to do. And then this,
then I I think of this story ofof seeing a little girl coming,
skipping along back to me in thehand of my mother, like she's so
proud she's with the mother. Andthen you like the relief and how
(11:10):
fabulous it is. But then you'rekind of shocked by these
feelings, these feelings of, howcould I felt? That that
resentment, that fury, and thenthose feelings of fury melt you
and your love becomes stronger.
We all have those moments, andthat's what ambivalence is. It's
that melting, that surge of lovethat keeps going forever.
(11:35):
I follow your point. I can seethis. It's true, absolutely. I'm
sure all of us listening. Ifyou've been a mom long enough,
or a parent for long enough, youhave had moments where you're
scared you can't find your kids,for example, and it's true,
maybe those moments do help usor remind us how much and how
valuable our relationships arewith our children.
(11:56):
And in fact, it doesn't stopwhen they're little and
continues like when you have anadult child, and they forget to
call you and it's two o'clock inthe morning, and you think back
to when you first when you haveyour baby, you're up at two
o'clock at least, you know wherethe baby is, you know. And I
talk a lot in my book aboutseparating future from your
(12:17):
children when they're older, andbeing able to respect them as
adults, and kind of to standback and let them make their own
mistakes as as adults with theirown children. And how I talk
about how proud I am I've gotthree totally different children
that have taken on three totallydifferent paths, and how lucky I
(12:38):
am to be able to watch them andto really carefully not judge
them, because you don't want tojudge your children. You want
them to have their voyage intoparenthood in their own way, and
how wonderful it is to do that,and how you know they'll make
(12:59):
mistakes the same way as we did,and I did and you didn't, that's
okay, and that's what makes ushuman. We have grandparents
that are very close to ourchildren, and I feel so grateful
when they don't judge thingsthat we do. They may be thinking
things, and I'm always gratefulthat they don't share them out
loud.
Yeah, well, it's, it's theparents, the mother's time. And
(13:20):
I think when we're talking aboutjudgment here, there's a social
judgment, an ideal that it'slike when you talked about your
parents went away, even though,like, maybe their friends were
thinking it was terrible. Well,you know what? It's every mum,
every every relationship, youneed time away if you're lucky
(13:41):
enough to get it, and it's soimportant, because it refuels
you and renews you, and that'swhat we need as moms to be able
to be renewed. And there's somany ways of being renewed as a
mother, and there's also waysthat it's it's so difficult
hands on being a mother, becauseit is messy and it's exhausting.
(14:06):
Yes,I really respect that my parents
knew what they needed, because Ido think that when you have that
time to recharge, you become abetter parent, and when you're a
better parent, that's better foryour children, much better for
children to be around parentswith energy that are in good
moods, as opposed to parentsthat are stressed. Don't have
time for their kids, don't haveenergy for their kids. So I
agree. I think it's reallyimportant that people honor what
(14:28):
they what they need.
Yes, you bring you bring inanother really important part of
my work, which is laughter. AndI relate that to flow as a
mother. If we can flow with ourmothering, you know, as opposed
to being rigid and kind ofstrangled by the ideals, we're
(14:51):
going to be better mothers. Flowis being able to laugh, being
able to laugh at ourselves, andbeing able to stop. For a moment
like to smell the roses, even atthe most difficult time.
I when I read that in your bookthe importance of humor, I
couldn't agree more. And I wasthinking about there was a time
when I took my kids to thefarmers market, and my youngest
(15:16):
hadn't had, you know, she wentto the bathroom. I changed her
diaper. I had only brought twodiapers with me, and then she
went to the bathroom again, andit was a big mess. Poop was
everywhere. I had to take offher clothes. It got on me, and
it was very stressful. I'maround a lot of people in a
crowded area at the farmersmarket, and I remember my older
kid, who was probably five atthe time, she started laughing,
(15:37):
like, Mommy, you have poop allover your shirt. There's poop
all over her, and it immediatelytransformed this very stressful
feeling into, you know what?
This is funny. This is a funnytime. We're going to fix this.
It's not so bad. I'll get home,I'll clean her off, I'll wash my
clothes. But this is a funnymoment, and so I do, I do,
completely agree that humor canchange stress into a good
(16:00):
experience.
And in that, in that scenario,you were open to making it
humorous and to going with yourflow, because often we can't,
often it just we take it muchtoo seriously. But there was
something in that, there wassomething in the interaction
(16:21):
that you were able to maybe stopand think, think for a second
and transform it. And that'sthat's a wonderful asset to
have. And I really encourage allmums like to make a space to
think how serious is this, andam I going to change it by being
annoyed and irritated andstressed. Oh, this is an
(16:45):
opportunity to make this a funnystory that we can recall
forever.
Yes. And I also remember beinggrateful because there were
people around me that looked atme and I thought, maybe they're
going to judge. And they lookedand they said, up, been there,
done that. It's Yes, yes. Youknow, they gave me a smile, they
gave me some encouragement. AndI do think there's also
(17:06):
something to society, beingforgiving of each other, giving
the parent the Okay, been there.
I understand what you're goingthrough. It's okay. We're gonna
get through it. And so I do, Ido agree that overall, if we can
add humor light in the momentsof child rearing is better for
everybody, yes,like that light and the moments
of mothering or parenting, Imean getting back to your to
(17:27):
your comment about if there'scommunity around that are
supportive, that's that's somuch better, and it doesn't
always happen. And there's alsothe sense of being able to
forgive ourselves. I thinkthat's really important, and it
doesn't come from like that.
(17:48):
There's a process and a thoughtbeing thoughtful about forgiving
oneself, and that's alsoconnected to flow, as opposed to
being rigid, you know, I'vethought a lot about rigidity and
how it really makes it difficultto be a mother when you are
(18:10):
rigid, when you've got theserules that you think that you
need to observe all the time,and There's no flow. And we
really need flow, because we'readapting all the time. If we're
not flowing, we're not adapting,we're not going to be able to
fix our mistakes, we're notgoing to be able to laugh at
(18:31):
them, and we're not going to beable to have the sense that I'm
going to do what I need to do tobe the enough mother that I can
be.
I'm grateful for my motheringexperience, because I could see
the difference from my firstchild to my third child. When my
first child I felt thatrigidity. I felt that I had to
be perfect with breastfeeding,with her sleep schedule. Yes, I
(18:55):
remember I couldn't go tobirthday parties with my first
child because the birthday partyfell exactly during her nap
time, everything was rigid. Butby the time I had a third kid, I
remember thinking, you know, didwe, did she nap yet today? I'm
not sure, or did she, did shehave a good, balanced meal? Yet,
I don't remember. And you justYes, and so I I'm so grateful
(19:17):
that I had that experience whereI could see that had a much less
stressful experience with her,and she's okay. It's right now.
Fast forward, she's nine yearsold, and she's doing fine. She's
in school. She has friends,that's right and that, and they
don't have to be so, so sticky,so rigid,
and they teach us. Every childthat we have teaches us so much
(19:40):
about life and about mothering,and yeah, you had no choice. You
had to that. You had to adapt.
Otherwise you would be at home.
You would be at home all thetime without, without being able
to get out. I mean, my childrenare now. My oldest is 44 my next
one's 35 and. My next one's 27 Ihad secondary infertility
(20:04):
between my first two, and I wasvery lucky to have the second
and the third one. But I thinkthat you you for me, I was very
rigid with the first experience.
We had a lot of fun, but Icouldn't tolerate that. I might
have messy feelings. And I havetwo sons, and my daughter taught
me about the messy feelings, andshe taught me to laugh, and she
(20:26):
taught me that it was actuallyokay. And the the irony is, once
you once you can laugh about it,or once you can flow with it,
you actually are a better mum oran enough mum. And that's the
irony, and it's very hard to getto that, I think, with the first
(20:46):
children, because you're on ayou're on a timetable, you just
have to adapt. I mean, thesecond and the third, they just
have to drag along, and they'reokay. And as you said, your nine
year old actually made it toschool, and she's actually got
some friends.
Yes, no, absolutely. Somethingthat I think about a lot is, as
(21:07):
a pediatrician, I talk to moms.
I talk to a lot of new moms whoexperience a lot of anxiety, a
lot of sadness. They havepostpartum blues. They are very
real, very pervasive, and Ithink a lot of people don't want
to admit that they have thosefeelings. And I strongly believe
that the more community you havearound you, the more support you
have around you, the more thatwe can let moms know that these
(21:28):
feelings are okay, expected,normal. I do think it's better
for everybody, and I think ifyou can validate those feelings,
yes, it's better for everybody.
It's it's better for the mother.
It's better for her husband,it's better for the children. I
do think that by validatingthese feelings, it really does
make it really does make itbetter.
(21:52):
And I think for a lot of mums,it's hard to because you're
absolutely time poor, it's hardto really know what's going on.
And I really, I really encouragemums to look at my book when
they get a chance, and to evento read it in whatever order.
And it's really, it reallygives, I think it really gives
(22:13):
them more realnotion of what mothering is a
human It's human.
What I really appreciate aboutyour book is that it it really
validates those feelings, thatyou may really love your
children, but it's okay not tolove all aspects of mother.
No, no. It's really hard. Imean, when you're tired and, as
you say, when they've when theypoo everywhere and it's messy,
(22:37):
it's hard.
I remember being very excited tohave my first kid. I was in
residency at the time, working80 plus hours a week, and I
fantasize this time where Iwould have a baby that slept all
day. I would be off for a fewmonths before going back to
work. And honestly, it wasreally I was I was in for a rude
awakening, because my first bornhad a severe case of colic. She
(23:00):
cried all the time. It wasreally, really hard to console
her. She really was not a goodsleeper at night, and I remember
feeling really bad about notwanting to be with her. I felt
tremendous relief. I remembervery clearly the first day that
I took her to daycare and I wasable to pay somebody to take her
for the day. I felt so guilty atthe relief I felt that I wasn't
(23:22):
with her, and I thought they'regonna call me any second,
telling me she's so colicky, shecries so much, we also can't
take her. But they never calledme, and I felt bad that I was I
was so happy to not be with herfor eight hours. But fast
forward, I want to say that. Youknow, she outgrew that stage. I
adore my children. I adore her.
Now. As a pediatrician, I'm verygrateful for that experience,
(23:45):
because when I have new momsthat come in and they tell me
similar feelings when they havecolicky kids or they really
don't enjoy that newborn stageparticularly, and I can relate
to them. Yes, I can tell that itgives them relief, it gives them
comfort, that we can that thatthey're not alone in those
feelings. So I do think, inhindsight, it was a great
(24:07):
experience for me, because I dothink my experience has actually
helped other mothers, and forthat, I'm grateful.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I alwaysthink that our kids teach us
everything every a lot, and weget the children that we're
meant to get. And I, I thinkthat your vulnerability is so
important, especially as apediatrician, and if you can, if
(24:30):
you can understand that, thatopens a whole sense of self,
forgiveness, for for the for themums that you see, and also a
different way of looking at it.
It's like, it's okay. I canactually say that I don't like
this phase and that I'm tiredand that it's exhausting, and
that I'm happy to put for themto go to someone else so I can
(24:53):
get myself back on track. Andthis, this is like, such a new
narrative. That it's like fanfantastic and, and it's healthy
and,and I also am so grateful for
those in my life that helpedwith my kids when they were
little. My mother in law was inparticular, was very involved. I
remember she would come over andwatch the kids for a couple
(25:14):
hours and let me leave myapartment. And I do think those
experiences also help you have agreater sense of appreciation
and love for others in yourlife. Yes, and
I've no doubt that you wouldprobably have told your mother
in law that you appreciated her.
So I know, yeah, it's, it's awonderful thing. It's, it flows,
(25:35):
yes, I mean, still to this day,she listens to this podcast. So
I I can say with great sincerityand love that her involvement
with my kids has definitely beena wonderful experience, because
I know it works. It works in allrespects. You know, she My kids
love her. She loves my kids. Ilove her. I love my kids. So I
feel like everybody benefits. Soagain, just just sort of
(25:56):
reiterating the point that themore support we have, I do think
my overall sense with maternalambivalence is that, because
it's a real feeling, and it's areally a normal feeling, the
more we talk about it, the morewe ask for help, the better it
is for everybody, the better theoverall experiences. So please,
moms, anyone listening who'sstruggling, ask for help. I
(26:17):
mean, people like to feelhelpful. I think,
I think also what this whatyou're saying. I don't know what
people think about thisstatement, but it does take a
village to raise a child. Itdoes, really does. And this also
reminds me of the roles of theFather, and how important the
father is to the partner, to ifit to, if it's the wife or the
(26:42):
partner, because they I thinkthese days, fathers are much
more involved with theirchildren, and it's like and I
think the mothers possibly havelet go of, hopefully, of their
perfection, because if you'vegot someone to help you, they're
actually allowed to do it intheir way. You don't need as the
(27:03):
mother, you can just go and bein peace, and you don't need to
ring up. Are you doing this? Areyou doing that? Like with your
mother in law? What food are yougiving or you don't need to,
like, be a policeman. You justneed to let them do what they
do. The kids are going to be allright. They're going to survive
an afternoon with the father ora weekend with the grandparent,
(27:26):
and the kid is going to knowthat they can get away with this
with the grandparent. They'renot going to get away with it
with the mother. But it's that'salso so important to be able to
give the help, the people thathelp you, the possibility to do
it their way. And you mum, welike as mums, we actually like
to control, and that's rigid. Weactually need to let go of that
(27:49):
and let other people help us.
And it goes back to what youreally said, get people to help
because they like it, and it'sgood for the child. It's good
for the child to have otherpeople around, loving them
absolutelynow you're reminding me when my
when my kids were really little,my husband. He's a very involved
husband. He loves being afather. I'm very grateful to
(28:11):
him, but he definitely didthings in a different way than I
would do them, and I do think itreally helped to laugh about it.
So for example, the buttons onthose onesies are so difficult
those but those buttons, youhave to line them up exactly.
And he didn't care. Oftentimesthe kids would leave the house
the buttons were half on or not.
I love it. And I would have adiaper bag, for example, that
(28:32):
was packed with everything youneeded, diaper cream, extra
diapers, extra change ofclothes. And I remember once he
walked out the door with our sixmonth old with just a diaper in
his back pocket, no diaper bag.
And I said, Don't you need thebag that everybody has. And he
said, what for? I'll figure itout. You know, I got what I
really need, just a diaper. Youknow, it's funny. We could laugh
about it, that we'd figure itout. And he did figure it out.
(28:53):
He's like, if something happens,I'll figure it out. And he was
right, and the kids are okay, soI do think you're right that
being exposed to differentstyles that aren't so rigid,
it's helpful for everybody.
Yeah,and I think as moms, we need to,
we need to work on that, becausewe do like to do it our way. And
I think we often, with the firstchild, you've got these plans,
(29:13):
and also you really want to doit yourself. You want to, you
want to prove in a way, thatthat you're that you're enough,
or that you're doing a good job.
Because it go and this, for allof us as moms, it goes to the
center of our being, that wecan, that we that we're doing a
(29:34):
job that we're proud of, andsometimes we can, we can have
moments that we I nailed, that.
That's fantastic, but it'sreally we're not going to be
like that all the time, and wehave to be really forgiving of
ourselves and that, rememberthat maternal ambivalence also
is something that's positive andthat's transformative. Yeah, and
(29:58):
this takes me back to the thatthe word ambivalence is really
misunderstood. People confuse itwith indifference, which is
actually the opposite, becauseit's a not caring. It's just
being aware of all the differentfeelings and and that the
difficult ones are difficult,but they're valuable, and they
(30:20):
renew our love. And I just, Ireally want to stress this part,
that maternal ambivalence issomething that we haven't
included in the maternallanguage, and it's so vital.
Yes, I agree. I think it's sovital for people to know that
there's space for all feelings,that you can love your baby, but
(30:42):
you can also struggle with beinga mother, that you can feel how
hard it is. And I think the morethat we recognize this, the more
that we admit this to ourselves,the better the experience is
overall,yeah, and the better for other
mothers. Because when, if, whenthis when and if this is known,
and I am so determined to makethis known, then other mothers
will say, yeah, that's okay.
(31:05):
That's how I feel. You identifywith it, and when, when you read
it, or when you hear it, youkind of can get a warm glow,
yeah, that's what I'm goingthrough, and I'm okay and
enjoying my best. And that'sreally what it's about. It's
it's about the mother being ableto feel that she's doing the
best that she can at thatmoment, that it's not always
(31:26):
going to be like that, thatshe's going to make mistakes and
she'll fix them up.
I really believe that we're alldoing the best that we can with
the tools that we have, thatwe're not meant to be perfect.
We're just doing the best thatwe can definitely Now I'm
curious for yourself, now thatyou've spent a lot of time
thinking about maternalambivalence, now that you're a
grandmother yourself, do youwish that you have that you had
(31:49):
done anything differently whenyou were a mother?
Definitely, and I've got, thisis my second book. I wrote a I
did my PhD on maternalambivalence. That was what I
studied. That was in a bit fromabout 2012 so I'm really very
invested in this area. And Iwrote a book from my PhD, which
was more academic, and I endedit on very near the end of I
(32:10):
wrote, I wrote a list of thingsthat I wish I would have known.
And it's really what we've beentalking about today. It's being
able to laugh a little bit, tostop and not to worry about the
little things. And I wish Iwould have known that it was
actually a messy, interruptedexperience. And I wish I would
have known that I can't be aperfect mother, and we need to
(32:35):
concentrate on our humanity andnot being perfect. It kind of
takes you away from the mainfocus and that we're human.
I know that your work is goingto be so helpful to so many
people. So thank you so much.
And can you tell everybody aboutyour book and where they can
find it?
Yes, okay, my book's beingreleased on the 25th of March.
And if you go to my website, DrMargo lowy.com you'll find a
(33:00):
little bit about me, a littlebit about my work, my book, and
I am so passionate about thistopic and carving this space for
all of us as mothers. And reallyit goes further than that,
because mothers are really thebasis of society. And, you know,
we we rear our children, andwhat's more important than that?
(33:23):
So listen. Thank you so much forfor inviting me on your podcast,
and thank you also for your workthat you're doing with young
mothers older mothers. It's justreally important. So thank you.
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review,
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
(33:44):
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask you.
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