In this episode of Your Child Is Normal, Dr. Jessica Hochman talks with therapist and screen-time educator Julie Frumin about the digital world kids are growing up in—and how to push back. They explore the rise in anxiety, sleep deprivation, and attention issues linked to screens, and how we can respond as parents and communities. Julie shares her personal story, professional insights, and her work with Healthier Tech and MAMA (Mothers Against Media Addiction). From delaying smartphones to modeling unplugged behavior to creating phone-free spaces, this conversation is filled with realistic, empowering tools to help kids—and adults—reclaim their time and well-being.
Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Jessica, we've overprotected kids in the real
world and under protected themonline. That line really stuck
with me. It's from today's guesttherapist and screen free
parenting advocate Julie fruman,and it captures so much of what
we're seeing in childhood today.
Welcome back to your child isnormal. I'm Dr Jessica Hochman,
and in this episode, we'retackling one of the most
important topics in parentingscreens Julie is a licensed
(00:22):
Marriage and Family Therapist.
She's the founder of a nonprofithealthier tech and she's a
grassroots leader for MamaMothers Against media addiction.
So in today's episode, we'regoing to talk about the real
effects of screen time on ourkids' mental health, why it's so
hard to set limits in today'sculture, and most importantly,
what we can actually do aboutit. So if you're feeling
(00:42):
overwhelmed by screens in yourhome and you're looking for
doable, honest guidance, thisepisode is for you. And also, if
you're enjoying your child asnormal, please take a moment to
leave a five star reviewwherever it is. You listen to
podcasts, not only do goodreviews make my day, most
importantly, it helps otherpeople find the podcast.
Julie Freeman, I am so lookingforward to talking about an
(01:03):
issue that is near and dear toboth of our hearts, and that is
the intoxication of the screenworld in our children's lives.
So thank you so much for beinghere. Thank you so much for
having me. This is veryimportant to me as well. So tell
me. I'm just curious. I knowthat this is an important issue
for many of us parents, but whatled you to spend so much time
focusing on kids and screens? Soabout 10 years ago, I started my
(01:27):
private practice in Westlake.
I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist, and I've also
spent seven years as the mentalwellness expert at the Four
Seasons center for health andwell being in Westlake, and I
found myself saying in almostevery setting, gosh, it really
seems like that technology isgetting in the way of you
achieving your goals. I wouldhear about how they would spend
(01:49):
many hours doing their homework,and then when I dug down deep, I
found that they were on theirphones at the same time, and
that was keeping them away fromtheir friends with the older,
midlife or adult populationsthat I would see, I found that
they were on devices so muchthat it was impacting their
health choices, more sedentarybehavior, but also impacting
(02:11):
their marriages and theirwillingness to get out there and
go do something social in reallife. But what I saw over my 10
years or so of working withpeople across all all walks of
life, was that the overuse oftechnology was really getting in
the way, and it was getting inthe way of my ability to succeed
(02:31):
as a therapist, because I can'tcompete with, let's say, a 24
year old girl who's got a bodyimage problem I can't compete
with my one hour a week oftherapy and her sometimes 1214,
hours a day of looking at imageson Instagram that make her feel
worse. And so I really startedto get frustrated. And then when
it hit home for me, was whensomeone asked me, when I was
(02:54):
walking my kids to school abouta year and a half ago, if I was
going to get my son, who, at thetime was in the fourth grade, a
phone, and that's when I put myfoot down and said, Okay, I'm no
longer just gonna do this in mypractice. I need to step outside
of my comfort zone and startsomething to make changes in the
community. It's amazing, and I'mso appreciative that you're
here, because I do really feellike the more and more I learn
(03:14):
about the harms from screens,and the more and more I try to
talk to families and my ownchildren about making
considerations to not have somuch screens in their life. I do
think it makes a huge differenceif everybody is on the same
page, if we're all on boardtogether because or else, kids
are honestly just feeling leftout. They're feeling left out.
If their friends playing Robloxand they're not, or they're
(03:35):
friends on Instagram and they'renot. I do appreciate that you're
trying to get the word out toget the word out to the
community. I think that's goingto make a big difference. That's
my hope. I think a lot of us canunderstand why screens are a
problem. As you mentioned, ittakes away our attention, which
is so important. It's true ifkids are sitting down to do
homework, which isn't thatinteresting for a lot of kids,
right? Let's be real, if they'resitting down to do their social
(03:56):
studies homework or write apaper, and in front of them or
next to them, is this veryaddictive screen where they can
look at what their friends aredoing and chat with their
friends and look up anythingthey want on the internet. I
would say, to tell a child tonot look at their screen is it's
just not realistic. And inaddition to that, I know we're
both very interested in Jonathanheights work. We went together
recently. We heard Jonathan Hitelecture in Santa Barbara, and I
(04:19):
just thought I would start ourconversation by sharing with the
audience some interestingstatistics that he points out
that really wake me up to theproblem that's happening. The
first is he talks about theincrease in mental health
diagnosis that since around 2010plus or minus a couple of years
coinciding with when smartphonesbecame widely available, we've
(04:41):
seen an increase in anxietydisorders, major depression, all
kinds of mental health diagnoseshave really increased since that
time, we've seen a rise in selfharm and suicide rates and
America, just to share a coupleof these stats, American teen
girls, 62% increase in suiciderates ages 15 to 19.
189%increase in younger teens age 10
to 14, and similarly, suiciderates rose by 70% for older teen
(05:05):
girls and 151%for younger teen girls compared
to previous decades. Alsoanother point to bring up,
decreased in in person, socialinteraction. To me, that is
really important when I thinkabout my childhood and what I
loved about being a kid, thebest times were always playing
with friends. Most teens used tospend a couple hours a day with
(05:25):
their friends, and now thatnumber is way decreased. And
then another big point is hetalks about sleep deprivation.
We all know that sleep is abedrock of health, and a number
of students are now getting lessthan seven hours of sleep, and
we're seeing that number declinesince 2010 so not to scare
people, I'd like to just wake upthe community that screens are
(05:46):
getting into the way of our lifein many ways that are causing
harm Absolutely. And he lays outthe case so beautifully in his
book. Jonathan Hyatt does in theanxious generation. He's also on
almost every major podcast. Soif you want to hear if any of
you are curious and want to diveinto his work, I highly
recommend the book, but I alsorecommend just searching
(06:08):
literally through any podcast.
He has a lot of long forminterviews where he lays out
what he calls the loss of theplay based childhood, and then
the development of the phonebased one and although that does
sound Stark and again, harshwhen you think about the sheer
amount of time that the averageteen or tween is spending, and
(06:30):
the ages are getting younger andyounger for that first
smartphone, we're really justseeing that those words are
true, that his thesis of thebook in one sentence, he says,
We have over protected them inthe real world, and we have
under protected them online. Ifyou really boil it down to a
sentence, that's that, that isit, and the four foundational
(06:50):
harms that you just laid out arethe ones that he says affect
most kids. So we've got thehealth and well being on a
spectrum from healthy childhood,healthy teens, to the worst case
scenario, which would be theself harm and suicide, which has
increased just signally, butthen right there in the middle,
the majority of our young peopleare dealing with these four
harms of attentionfragmentation, sleep
(07:11):
deprivation, social deprivationand addiction. And that word I
don't use lightly, but what wesee sometimes and what I hear
about also in my practice, fromfamilies who try to start to
reel it in with screen time, isa response with kids and teens
that looks like truly when youtake someone's drug of choice
(07:33):
away. And sadly, Anna Lembke,who wrote dopamine nation, says
in her book, which I highlyrecommend, that book, she talks
about how the sad part is thatwhen we if we get to that place
of addiction with anything thatproduces quick, cheap, easy
dopamine, then without it, onceit's removed, that everything
else in life seems boring. Andso we see some of those results
(07:56):
in the data on self describedlife satisfaction over the
years, and actually the resultson life satisfaction are
changing so drastically that itused to be that satisfaction was
on the U curve, so we werereally happy in our younger
years, and then mid life washarder when we were working and
building a family. And then aswe got older, the U goes back up
on the other side to show morehappiness and more life
(08:18):
satisfaction. But that haschanged so much so that it
doesn't look like a you anymore,because young people are not
satisfied with their lives. Andthat's just that really gets to
me, because when I pull back andthink about my own children and
then just the future of ourworld, you know, we're so
fortunate. We're in such a safe,relatively time with so much to
(08:38):
be grateful for. And I just wantpeople to live lives of
enjoyment and to self describetheir lives as satisfying, and
to find joy and in each otherand in why we're here. I always
think with the saying thatcomparison is the thief of joy,
and I think it's never so trueand so highlighted, as in the
case of smartphones, becausekids will compare constantly.
(09:02):
They're comparing who's betterat sports, who's better at video
games, who's wearing a betteroutfit, who's having more fun.
You're always looking at whatother people are doing, and it's
just not healthy. I have a hardtime now with my kids, because
I'm really trying to make aneffort to keep them from social
media. And what I find reallytricky is a lot of their
friends, honestly, are on socialmedia. And so when we get
(09:23):
together with those friends,they're not thinking about
Tiktok, usually, but when we'rewith friends where their kids
are on Tiktok, then it becomesreally hard for them. I can see
they feel sad. They feel leftout. My son was once
disappointed because I wouldn'tlet him play video games, and he
felt left out of schoolconversations. And I get that
what all kids want is to feellike they're fitting in. And so
(09:44):
what's hard for me as a parentis I know that this is the right
thing for our family, but then Ifeel bad because they're not
fitting in with their peers,definitely. And I talk a lot
about this, actually, as atherapist, but I will say that
what I would tell you, if wewere in that, if we were in that
relationship, is that.
That it is good for your kids tofeel left out at times, that
this is natural and normal. It'spart of the human growth
(10:07):
experience, and it is hard, andI do believe this is why we need
a collective action solution,because we don't want kids
consistently feeling left out.
We don't want kids to actuallyend up feeling bullied or
feeling really isolated, so wedo need to change things, but at
the same time, this is part ofhow we live and how we teach
kids that they don't always getwhat they want. I appreciate
(10:29):
that reminder by the good forthem. It is really good for
them. It's hard, and also too,just to talk a little bit about
parenting in the way that weparent now tends to be so
gentle, and we're so concernedabout their emotional lives, as
we should be,and we've also swung really far
into wanting to sometimes makethem just comfortable and happy,
(10:50):
and that doesn't really servethem in the long run, because
life is so hard. Life is reallya challenge, and so having
boundaries and saying no, evenwhen your kids, and I say when,
not if, when they are so mad atyou, whether it's that they
can't go to a party that there'sno parents, or whether or not
(11:10):
you're saying no to a cupcakewhen they're little, or you're
saying no to social media whenthey're too young for social
media. It's hard as a parent,but we have to know, as Dr Becky
always says, We are the pilot ofthe plane, and kids want a
sturdy pilot. They want someonewho believes in what they're
doing and stands up for it, andthat's how they're going to
(11:31):
learn to do that one day, too.
One more thing about parenting,though, I have to say, is that
we didn't have a lot of thisdata. This conversation we're
having is quite new, and there'sso much guilt and shame. And so
I just want to say, let's, like,throw all of that over into a
pile and light it on fire andleave it, leave all the guilt
and the shame aside and justsay, okay, knowing what we know
(11:54):
now, what people say, Oh, it'stoo late, or that ship has
sailed. Never, never. It's nevertoo late. We can always pick up
an exercise routine, or we canalways start to eat better. We
can always start to reduce oursedentary time or our isolation
time we have as long as we'realive, there's potential.
Absolutely no, that's a it's avery helpful reminder, because I
(12:15):
do think a lot of parents feelthat it's too late, that it's
too much a part of their lives,and they can't go back. I'm
thinking about what you'resaying, how it's our job as
parents to lay down theboundaries, and I think everyone
listening can agree with thatconcept. We wouldn't let our
kids have ice cream every nightfor dinner, even though we know
our kids would like to have icecream every night for dinner if
(12:35):
it was offered, but we know thatit's not healthy for them. We
know that's not the best thingfor our kids, so we don't let
that happen. But for whateverreason, with screens, I find
that it's a lot harder forparents to lay down those clear
boundaries. From yourperspective, why do you think
it's that way? Why do you thinkit's so hard for parents to say
no to screens? I think that is areally great question that has
(12:56):
like so many answers, but one ofthe things I want to say is just
how ingrained screens are intoour current life. So when I
started doing this work, Ireally wanted to get specific
and intentional about what wewere doing in our home and how I
myself as a fully grown woman,could do better as well. So I
started trying to put limits onmyself and on our family that
(13:19):
were spelled out. And previousto this, we'd been, I'd say, a
low screen family, but I'd neverreally measured it or considered
what our boundaries were. Mykids had been younger, too, so I
was thinking, how am I going tooperationalize this as they get
older? And I found it to bereally a challenge. So one of
(13:39):
the first things we decided todo, or I decided for our family,
is that we were going to say noscreens before breakfast, no
screens for an hour before bed,no screens at the dinner table,
just setting aside some zonesand times. And that's one of the
first things I encourage peopleto do, is to consider
(14:00):
the fact that screens areubiquitous. They are in our
bathrooms. When people shower,they're everywhere. They are
everywhere, everywhere. They'reat the gas station when you're
pumping gas, if you get in a cabin New York, they're in the back
of the cab like they're we couldliterally and oftentimes,
especially teens are and someadults are literally looking at
a screen for every second theireyes are open of the day. And so
(14:22):
to pull back from that, justthat piece alone is so hard for
parents, and I found that we hadto get a landline for our house.
So if I was going to put myphone away, good for you. You
have a landline. I like thatlandline. I was like, Okay, I'm
going to put my phone away forthese amount of times. And then
I just started thinking, if I'mgoing to try and be unplugged
more, then we should have somesense of some way to
(14:44):
communicate. So we got alandline. I also had to buy a
watch because I didn't know whattime it was. I'm wearing it
right now. We put clocks allover the house, because with
your phones and drawers, again,we had no way to tell the time.
We bought a record playerbecause we decided to do.
Tech free Shabbat in our home.
So from five o'clock on Friday,where we put the phones away,
and then I realized our phonesare hooked up to our Spotify and
(15:06):
our Sonos, so we had no way toplay any music during dinner. So
we've been figuring out just howhard it is to pull back at all.
And then I would say there'sthis added piece for parents to
children, that parents, again,want their kids to be happy, and
they assess that it's going tomake them happier, because the
kids are stomping about it. Oh,I need this. And it's really
(15:28):
hard for a parent, day in andday out, to fight that fight,
and so oftentimes we give in.
But as you mentioned in theresearch at the beginning of
this conversation, we found ithas not made them happier at
all. You know, what'sinteresting is I found what we
had to do was get rid of a lotof our media devices. So for
example, we took a long familytrip where we were on a plane.
(15:50):
We went to Japan with our kids,and I bought them iPads because
I was worried about gettingthrough the flight. And then
when we got home from the trip,they were still interested in
their iPads. They kept askingfor their iPads, and sometimes I
would acquiesce and let themlook at their iPads for a little
bit. And then it became a fight,a constant battle. They were
constantly asking me, Can I haveiPad time? Can I have iPad time?
And sometimes I would say yes.
And then, quite frankly, I washappy to have some quiet time,
(16:12):
and I could just feel it reallygetting in the way of our family
time. We were fighting more.
They were constantly thinkingabout it, and it scared me to
see how much they were thinkingabout the iPad. So finally, to
my mother in law's credit, shesaid to me, you're gonna have to
get rid of these iPads, get themout of your home. And so we did,
and she was right, and I wassurprised at how worried I was
(16:35):
to do that. I don't know what Iwas worried about, but I was
nervous that wouldn't go well,and it was honestly the best
decision, because once it wasout of the house, they stopped
asking for it. So for parentslistening, I mentioned this
because we were talking about,how can you pull back once
you've delved into the mediaworld and you can, and honestly,
your kids will be better off forit. And oftentimes, and I've
(16:57):
worked with a client, actuallyrecently with several children,
and she bravely, just did thistoo. She was terrified. Her kids
are younger than yours, and shewas using the iPads as many do.
They're so incredible. Thesedevices pull us in and can take
a screaming child to a passive,quiet one that frankly, in this
(17:20):
busy life, that a lot of parentsutilize that. And so it is very
scary to think, oh my gosh, whatam I going to do when they don't
have that, that quieter, thatpacifier, almost in the eye in
the form of an iPad. But thereality is, like you said, is
that there's a adjustmentperiod. Like with any behavior
change, there's an adjustmentperiod, and afterward, we find
(17:41):
that there's more peace in thehome that the dopamine response
that comes from these quickvideos and these bright lights,
but we feel a little bit of acrash afterward. And so when we
just completely remove access,it does make it it makes it
easier to abstain and to cutback on hours as well. Yeah. So
I like the way this conversationis going, because I know in the
(18:02):
beginning, I threw out somescary statistics. I know people
might be feeling badly aboutscreen use and all of the
potential harm that it'scausing, but what I'm really
looking forward to talking withyou more about is solutions to
this. Because there really aresome solutions. And just to
recap what you pointed out sofar, there are things that we
can replace, the things that weuse our phones for, maybe take
(18:22):
an old fashioned look andreplace them in your home, like
clocks, you pointed out moretraditional ways to play music
that don't require taking yourphone out. And then also the
point that parents, you're notalone if you're scared to pull
back on the screen, use that youcan do it. And that, I think, if
you think about the adjustmentperiod, get ready for that. But
then after that period, you willfeel better. You'll feel more
(18:44):
peace in the home. Yeah. And sowhen I started doing this work,
I created a three prongedparenting approach, because I
found myself talking doingworkshops that started out in my
home, and now they've grown. SoI really wanted to figure out,
what do I want to tell parents?
What do I think is reallyimportant to say. And so that is
delay, teach model. And so delayis obvious, that the longer we
(19:05):
delay, the less we have thosedevices in the home, the less we
have to fight it. And of course,once if you're listening to this
and your kids already havesmartphones again, we still have
solutions for that too, as tohow to roll back and how to set
some new boundaries and reallyreassess. But delaying is key. I
think delay is such an importantpoint whenever I think about
addictive behaviors, whether itbe smoking, drug use, screen
(19:28):
use, alcohol use, all of thedata shows that delay that's the
key to preventing addiction inthe adult life. For example, if
you talk to people that arealcoholics, there's a really
good chance that they tasted andliked their first sip of alcohol
before the age of 18, and thisis true for, I think, most major
(19:49):
addictions. So I bring this upbecause a lot of US adults are
very attached to our phones, andwe didn't start looking at our
phones till we were adults. Sothink about how much.
Harder it's gonna be for kidsthat start at an earlier age,
absolutely. And like I said,earlier, the trend is that it's
getting younger that we get thefirst smartphone for our kids.
And I think that's really gonnahave to swing back the other
(20:11):
way. We're gonna have to stopgetting young kids their first
smartphone for many reasons.
There was a study, actually, of28,000 young adults, so 18 to 24
from sapien labs, where they didjust a mental health survey for
these global 28,000 or so youth.
And what they found is that notonly does every year of delaying
(20:35):
improve the positive qualitiesof mental health, but it also
decreases the negatives ofmental health outcomes, and so
literally, every year that youcan wait, we should. There's a
great organization called waituntil eighth. If you look at the
fine print, it's actually waituntil the end of eighth, because
that organization is trying tohelp families and communities
(20:56):
delay the first smartphone untilhigh school. That's also
Jonathan heights recommendationis waiting until high school for
the first smartphone. It's alsomy recommendation as just a
therapist and a grassrootsorganizer advocate. Definitely,
if we can do that together, it'sgonna be easier. We can
definitely get them a flipphone. I have a flip phone now.
(21:17):
It's a quote, unquote dumbphone. It doesn't flip but it
doesn't have the internet and itdoesn't have the app store. It's
called the wise phone, and it'smade by Samsung. And I'm just, I
just figure I should, I shouldwalk the walk and see if I can
do it, see how it goes. If I'mgonna expect them to do it,
how's it going so far. It's achallenge. It is a challenge.
And I'm a bit cheating too,because I have two phones. I
(21:38):
have an iPhone for work, and soif I leave that one in the car,
typically, but if I needed to goand run and check an email, I
can do that with my work phone.
So I'm not totally abstaining,but I really wanted to see if it
was doable. So that's firstdelay. We want to delay the
first smartphone, wait tilleighth. Can help you with that?
Getting together with likeminded parents is just going to
be key, because you it's reallya challenge if your kid is the
(21:59):
only one. And just to touch onthat some more, I really do find
that is key. It's key because Iknow we were talking about how
it's part of life for kids tofeel different, that it's okay,
but if it's happening all thetime, it really is hard for
kids. So I do agree. I spend alot of time with my sister's
kids because they're like us.
And so my kids, they play games,they do puzzles, they're running
(22:20):
around outside, and they'renever thinking about the screens
when they're with their cousins.
I do find, if you can team upwith parents and make verbal
contract that you're not gonnahave screens when you get
together, it does make a hugedifference. That's a great
point, because one of the thingsthat as my son, who's almost 11,
he's got friends that are inmiddle school, several of them
and we live in we're lucky. Welive in a neighborhood where
kids are pretty free range.
(22:42):
They're running around andknocking on doors, and I found
recently, a few of his seventhand eighth grade friends are
coming over with a phone intheir pocket, which was new for
me as a mom within two seconds,of course, like moths to a
flame, they're all staring atthe one kid's brand new iPhone.
And I walked out and I was like,Okay, I'm gonna take all the
phones who has one, who has one,and only that one kid raised his
(23:04):
hand, and I was like, if youneed to text your mom and tell
her that she won't have accessto you, then do that. And so I
just and then I talked to themom later. I was like, just so,
you know, I know your kid got aphone when he's at my house, I'm
gonna have it in a drawer sothat he won't be able to access
it. And she was like, Oh, that'ssuch a good idea. And so it's
one of these things where we canown that. It's my house. I'm the
one feeding you snacks, right? Ibought the trampoline. So if you
(23:26):
come here, these are my rules.
The same thing can be done at abaseball tournament or a
softball tournament, if we takethem out to eat in between
games.
I'm not comfortable with all ofthem sitting there at the dinner
table staring at their ownindividual devices, because it's
the content that they could beseeing, of course, is
horrifying, and we know that tobe true, but the flip side for
(23:47):
that, for me as a therapist, isthat they're what they're
missing. And what they'remissing is that opportunity to
build relationships, to be ableto talk and look people in the
eye, and they're just missing somuch, and so I think we've got
some work to do with community,not just with delaying, but also
with creating places and spacesfor kids to go that are phone
free and tell everybody yourkids ages. By the way, my son is
(24:09):
about to be 11 and my daughteris eight. Amazing, so they know
when they go to your home.
That's the rule that's set ifthey're gonna go to the Freeman
home, yes, they're gonna beplaying, but they're not gonna
be playing using their devices.
And I think that's great, yeah.
And I have a feeling that,honestly, probably a lot of kids
are gonna go into your housebecause of that. I hope so.
That's the goal I really want tocreate. I hope so too place for
people to go. That's part of thework that I'm actually going to
(24:32):
be doing, which I'll get to in amoment. But I want to finish
with this delay teach modelthing. So really quick. What I
talk about with parents andworkshops is I encourage
delaying. I talk about the why.
We also talk about delayingsocial media until 16, which I
think is, again, these areminimums. And I know you heard
Jonathan Haidt say this, that asa social scientist, he's trying
to make suggestions that theworld can meet and that we can
(24:54):
look at and think, okay, maybebecause, as of right now, most
10 year olds are.
Already starting to engage inthis. So my desire is 18 for
social media, but at a minimum,we should not be filming their
middle school years because,good lord, middle school is so
hard. And who wants that outthere in the public, not me, and
then delaying social media aslong as possible, because it's
(25:15):
wildly inappropriate for kids.
But the second prong is teach.
We've got a lot to talk with ourkids about if they're going to
be exposed to the whole wideworld, which they are
eventually. And we want that forthem eventually. We know one day
they're gonna see pornography.
We know one day they're gonnasee violence, they're gonna see
really difficult things thatchallenge their values, but we
want to have been the person tohopefully talk with them about
(25:36):
some of that stuff beforehand.
So we've got a lot of work to doin the Teach prong, if we can
just put it away for chunks oftime again, zones and places and
spaces to where they feel. Ourreal attention on them, it's
really important to do. If I'mon my phone and my kids pointed
out to me, mommy, you're on yourphone, I actually welcome that
reminder, because I know thatI'm not being the best mom that
(25:56):
I can be if my phone's out. SoI'm actually glad when they tell
me. And I also think about howif I'm with a friend and they
take their phone out, then allof a sudden, subconsciously, I'm
thinking, oh, what I'm saying,isn't that interesting? I must
be boring. So maybe I'll takeout my phone too totally, and
the next thing I know, we'rehaving both of our phones out,
and that's not quality time,that's not us enjoying each
(26:16):
other's company. And so I don'twant my kids to feel that if I'm
with them, that if my phone'sout, that they're feeling less
than because my phone's out. SoI do think it's such an
important reminder to usparents, because these phones
are so addictive that we have tomake an effort to put our phones
away and consciously put themaway so that we can spend
quality time with our kids. Andthat's part of the reason why,
(26:37):
with some of the work I've beendoing as I've been
brainstorming, how do I want totake this to the next stage?
Like, what do I really want tobuild in our community that I've
decided I'm going to purchasesome yonder bags, so those are
lockable, magnetic pouches thatare used oftentimes in concerts
or comedy shows or in schools.
And the founder, his name isGreg do Goni. He said he wanted
he knows that once technologywas coming into our lives, that
(27:00):
it was going to just permeateour every experience, unless we
create national park likesettings in certain places and
spaces which were free of that.
So if you imagine like the chaosof LA and life and work and
traffic, and then you go toYosemite, and you're just in
this total national park, you'rein this totally different
(27:22):
setting, and that we need thatas like a protective thing for
our soul, almost. And so hewanted to create that as a way
to protect us from technology'schoke hold on all of our time
and attention. And so really,it's just an ingenious solution
to this problem of phoneubiquity. What I've decided to
do with in my nonprofit iscalled healthier tech is I want
(27:42):
to invest in some yonder bagsand start hosting offline clubs
to where families and kids cancome to places and spaces
throughout the year and justhost people to show up and
they're if they're willing toput their devices away for that
hour or 90 minutes. Maybe we'reat a park, maybe we're at a
coffee shop, or maybe we're atan ice cream shop, that everyone
in that space is going to bephone free for that period of
(28:04):
time. So that's part of one ofmy goals, too, is because what
we've got right now, and whathas happened, is that once a kid
has a phone, the kids don't everhave any chunk of time where
they are unplugged again. And soI want that for them. I want
them to feel it because we had aphone free concert somewhat
recently, my husband and I, andafterward, he was like, Oh my
(28:25):
gosh, she goes. I have a feelingthat if people experience what
that feels like for hours tohave an experience, and you're
fully there, just like the phonepulling out is a contagion. So
is the unpluggedness of it,because I find since I've been
doing this work with my ownfamily and myself, I want more
(28:45):
of it. I'm drawn to it, and I'mdrawn to those conversations and
environments in which people areso super present. And if it's
not that, I find it to be alittle lackluster. It's great.
It's true. It is it is true thatif you're engaged in a
conversation with someone, andthe screens come out, it
definitely diminishes thequality of the conversation. So
(29:06):
tell everybody more abouthealthier tech, the nonprofit
that she started again in thefall of 2023
I started talking to moms in myown home, offering coffee and
really begging people to come tomy house, because I just wanted
to get my son, who's my oldest,I wanted to get his friend's
parents on board with delayingthe first smartphone, but what I
(29:26):
found was that there was such aneed for conversation around
this topic, and that so manypeople felt lost and overwhelmed
and scared. And so I reallywanted to dig deeper and do some
more research. And so I did afew more talks. And then in the
meantime, Jonathan Haidtpublished the anxious
generation, and that same month,this journalist in New York, her
name is Julie skalfo, started agrassroots movement of parents
(29:48):
called mama, which stands forMothers Against media addiction.
So she launched mama inBrooklyn, New York, in March of
last year, and I read about.
It, I read about her desire, andbasically it's to fight big
Tech's hold on childhood, and toadvocate for and fight for a
world in which real lifeexperiences and interactions are
(30:11):
at the heart of a healthychildhood. And her vision for
that was threefold, parenteducation, getting phones out of
schools, and then legalsolutions too, because as of
right now, other countries aredoing things at the national
level, and we've got some thingshappening too in our country at
the state level, but theseproducts are, as they are now,
(30:32):
completely unsafe, and it'sunfair for parents to have to
bear the burden of that, to haveto keep their children safe from
something that's not safe. Sothat really interested me. So I
was probably one of the firstpeople who reached out to her
and said, I'm already doing theparent education piece, and I
want to do more. I want to workwith getting phones out of
schools. I want to do whatever Ican. I think that piece is huge.
(30:54):
And then I don't know much aboutlegislation, but I'm, I'm, I'm
jumping in on that piece too. SoI joined, and I launched our
Westlake Village, Conejo Valley,greater Conejo chapter. If
you're anywhere in LA and youwant to be a part of it, please
let me know. I'll sign you upfor our my I say our, it's just
kind of me monthly newsletter,but I've got 150
people on the newsletter, andwe've had a few gatherings since
(31:16):
then. So I keep my own nonprofitstatus for the parent Ed piece,
because that piece is realparent and kid. I speak to kids
too. That piece has taken over alot of the work that I do in my
day to day life. So as it turnsout, it was necessary. I'm
probably speaking to a group afew times a month at this point.
(31:37):
So that's like through my ownlittle healthier tech piece, but
also under the greater umbrellaof this awesome organization
that encourages community.
Because I don't want to be a onewoman show. I want a chapter of
powerful parents around me, andI want to just reiterate that
the group is for parents andteachers and allies and
grandparents and uncles andanybody who just wants to really
see a return to real lifeexperiences over the span of
(32:01):
childhood and adolescence. Andyou also are doing talks for
kids too, yes. So I've beenspeaking at schools. I've been
speaking at people's homes,really, wherever anyone will
have me. And I've got a fewdifferent topics that I've been
working on for kids. One of themis just about balance, and how
certain choices make us feelwhen we look at certain things
online. And then another one isabout the dopamine, the dopamine
(32:21):
response to quick videos, whichwe know it really changes our
ability to attend over time. Ifour brain expects new stimuli
every 20 seconds, and kids getit. Kids are online almost
constantly right now, especiallyteens, constant quick dopamine,
and then everything else otherthan that, preferred activity,
screen time, it's going to feelboring, which is just that to
(32:41):
me, and that is what we cannothave, is a world of kids that
are bored by the world that's sosad, so sad. It's true. I
actually got nervous last night.
My son told me he likes seeingreels. He goes, I like reels
because we've been watching somecomedy together before bed, and
that got me nervous. I said,Wait, we need to go back to
reading books before bed. Andhe's almost 12. So we spent a
(33:04):
lot of years where we where ourhabit was to read books before
bed, and we've gotten into somebad habits, but it's okay. We'll
take a step back. We'llreadjust. Yes, we always do
every holiday season. We haveto, like, recalibrate afterward,
because I always we alwaysoverdo it with cookies, and we
always feel a little grossafter. So I think it's part of
what we do as parents, and wejust have to transition it to
(33:25):
this issue too, because parentsare like, Oh, I don't know how
I'm gonna do it. And like, butyou do because we do it all the
time. Yes, no, that's a goodreminder that we can and we
should recalibrate now, ifpeople are listening and they're
thinking, Oh, I would love tohave her come speak to my mom
friends, parent friends, mychurch, my kids school. Can they
reach out to you? Absolutely. SoI have a website. It's www dot
(33:48):
healthier tech.org,and you can find me there. You
can reach out to me. You canalso sign up for my newsletter
there, and then you'll knowabout what's going on. I'm
trying to do something every sooften, a few times a year that
the community can come to if youwant to know what's going on
there and what's going on toonationally, there's a lot going
on with this legislation,different pieces of legislation,
and also, a lot of people havesaid they want to help out with
(34:11):
school policies, because it'snot really just the smartphone.
So there's a lot to be done. Ifyou have any questions, just
reach out. Now, I thought,before we finish up, I thought
it might be helpful if you and Iboth share some realistic,
actionable tips to maybe helpparents steer their kids away
from too much time on thescreens. Sure, do you want to
start? Or should I start? Yougo, I would encourage parents to
(34:32):
let their kids try things thatare out of the house that you
might not be comfortable withfor example, I've been having my
kids go to the grocery store bythemselves. I give them money.
They go in and they buy thethings that they want. I've been
letting my kids ride their bikesoutside. I've been letting them
walk to their friends' houses bythemselves. Let them walk home
(34:53):
from their friends' houses bythemselves. I've been having
them walk the dog by themselves.
I'm really in.
Encouraging them to participatein activities out of the home
without me, because I find thatgives them some natural
excitement, and I find thattakes them away from thinking
about screens. I'm so glad thatyou said that, because we
touched on the harms earlier.
But now we're talking reallyabout Jonathan heights four
(35:15):
solutions, delaying the firstsmartphone until 14, which we
talked about delaying socialmedia till 16, which we talked
about getting phones out ofschools, which we've talked
about, but the fourth one wehadn't until now. And the fourth
one is more free time, playtime, responsibility and
independence in the real world.
And that piece is huge, becauseif you just take away the
screens, it feels likepunishment. What do we even do
(35:38):
with these kids? If you justtake away the screens. We've got
to let them go outside, which isreally where they should be.
They should be with theirfriends doing things that scare
us just a little bit, the risky,rough and tumble play that
teaches them, it makes them feelless anxious when they know that
they can handle themselves, thatthey've tried something and they
maybe fell out of that tree andthey were okay, that's going to
(36:00):
be a lot more resilient of a kidthan a kid who's afraid to climb
that tree. So we've got to havethem go do more, and especially
the older they get. It's time 12year olds used to babysit. Now
12 year olds have a babysitter.
What's going on here? So wereally need to allow them to
feel that they're able toparticipate in this world. That
is such a great way to squashanxiety. I know you interviewed
(36:21):
Lenore skenazzi, and she's gotthat great book, free range
kids. She's got herorganization, let grow, which
you can find a lot of people areafraid, really afraid, to let
their kids go outside. But ifyou look at her website,
letgrow.org there's research andstatistics from the FBI that
shows we do not have a rampantkidnapping problem. The world is
much safer. The real world ismuch safer than we think that it
(36:43):
is, and online is actually wherea lot of the problems are
happening. So thank you forbringing that up. I'm glad that
we didn't stop this conversationbefore we talked about that.
Peter Gray, who was also on thepodcast a while back, he had a
great line that I think about alot. He said, The truth is,
nobody wants your children. Sotrue. He said, if you look if
you think about kidnappings, orif you look into kidnappings,
truthfully, it's almost alwaysfrom a family member, a
(37:06):
contentious relationship in yourlife. It's usually not a
surprise stranger out on thestreets that takes your
children. I think about that alot because it is an inherent
worry with a lot of parents. Andthe thing about worry and risk
is that nothing is risk free. Soyou might save yourself the
worry by telling yourself thatit's less risky for your kid to
be at home, indoors, on theirown, maybe on a device. But it's
(37:29):
not see the sedentary, isolatedbehavior alone is riskier than
them being out and about, andit's not a quality childhood
when you think back about howmuch fun being a kid was, the
fun was being out with yourfriends and playing and getting
into trouble and riding yourbike and going to shops with
your friends. It had nothing todo with being on screens. I
(37:51):
challenge people to think aboutwhat was your best memory as a
kid. I'm willing to bet that ithad nothing to do with screen
time. Totally one, one sort ofmeasurable or simple way that I
like to share with people to getto reduce screen time. Sometimes
people are like, Oh, I can'tfollow the American Academy of
Pediatrics rule of two hoursmax. That's way too little.
(38:14):
We're a heavy media family. Thatdoesn't work for us. And yet I
still I hear what you're saying.
I do wanna reduce screen time. Isay, okay, you can use balance
as a measure. Then considerwhether or not they have moved
their bodies, spent time in reallife with friends, done their
chores as they should have,chores to participate in the
(38:34):
home and to feel like ameaningful participant in the
world. Have they done theirhomework? Have they read a book
or read something that day, allof the things that they should
do, if they've done all of thosethings, then digital media might
be something to use. But untilthen, that's when we get out of
whack. Is if we what we do whenwe are online seven to nine
(38:55):
hours a day, is we don't doanything else. So using balance
as a measurement is helpful forthose who don't want to
particularly say lock it down to30 minutes or an hour a day.
That's a different way oflooking at it. Yes, you want to
lead your life by doing thoseactivities that we know are good
for us, and then if there's timeat the end of the day,
absolutely fitting in a littlescreen time where it feels
balanced, I agree is okay. Yeah,yes. Thank you so much. I really
(39:17):
appreciate this conversation,because I think it's really
important for parents to beaware not just of the harms of
screen time, but also thinkabout the solutions and how we
can swing the pendulum back inthe other direction. Thank you
so much for having me. Thank youfor being here. I really
appreciate the conversation.
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review,
(39:39):
wherever it is, you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica. See
you next Monday. You.
Jessica, we've overprotected kids in the real
world and under protected themonline. That line really stuck
with me. It's from today's guesttherapist and screen free
parenting advocate Julie fruman,and it captures so much of what
we're seeing in childhood today.
Welcome back to your child isnormal. I'm Dr Jessica Hochman,
and in this episode, we'retackling one of the most
important topics in parentingscreens Julie is a licensed
(00:22):
Marriage and Family Therapist.
She's the founder of a nonprofithealthier tech and she's a
grassroots leader for MamaMothers Against media addiction.
So in today's episode, we'regoing to talk about the real
effects of screen time on ourkids' mental health, why it's so
hard to set limits in today'sculture, and most importantly,
what we can actually do aboutit. So if you're feeling
(00:42):
overwhelmed by screens in yourhome and you're looking for
doable, honest guidance, thisepisode is for you. And also, if
you're enjoying your child asnormal, please take a moment to
leave a five star reviewwherever it is. You listen to
podcasts, not only do goodreviews make my day, most
importantly, it helps otherpeople find the podcast.
Julie Freeman, I am so lookingforward to talking about an
(01:03):
issue that is near and dear toboth of our hearts, and that is
the intoxication of the screenworld in our children's lives.
So thank you so much for beinghere. Thank you so much for
having me. This is veryimportant to me as well. So tell
me. I'm just curious. I knowthat this is an important issue
for many of us parents, but whatled you to spend so much time
focusing on kids and screens? Soabout 10 years ago, I started my
(01:27):
private practice in Westlake.
I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist, and I've also
spent seven years as the mentalwellness expert at the Four
Seasons center for health andwell being in Westlake, and I
found myself saying in almostevery setting, gosh, it really
seems like that technology isgetting in the way of you
achieving your goals. I wouldhear about how they would spend
(01:49):
many hours doing their homework,and then when I dug down deep, I
found that they were on theirphones at the same time, and
that was keeping them away fromtheir friends with the older,
midlife or adult populationsthat I would see, I found that
they were on devices so muchthat it was impacting their
health choices, more sedentarybehavior, but also impacting
(02:11):
their marriages and theirwillingness to get out there and
go do something social in reallife. But what I saw over my 10
years or so of working withpeople across all all walks of
life, was that the overuse oftechnology was really getting in
the way, and it was getting inthe way of my ability to succeed
(02:31):
as a therapist, because I can'tcompete with, let's say, a 24
year old girl who's got a bodyimage problem I can't compete
with my one hour a week oftherapy and her sometimes 1214,
hours a day of looking at imageson Instagram that make her feel
worse. And so I really startedto get frustrated. And then when
it hit home for me, was whensomeone asked me, when I was
(02:54):
walking my kids to school abouta year and a half ago, if I was
going to get my son, who, at thetime was in the fourth grade, a
phone, and that's when I put myfoot down and said, Okay, I'm no
longer just gonna do this in mypractice. I need to step outside
of my comfort zone and startsomething to make changes in the
community. It's amazing, and I'mso appreciative that you're
here, because I do really feellike the more and more I learn
(03:14):
about the harms from screens,and the more and more I try to
talk to families and my ownchildren about making
considerations to not have somuch screens in their life. I do
think it makes a huge differenceif everybody is on the same
page, if we're all on boardtogether because or else, kids
are honestly just feeling leftout. They're feeling left out.
If their friends playing Robloxand they're not, or they're
(03:35):
friends on Instagram and they'renot. I do appreciate that you're
trying to get the word out toget the word out to the
community. I think that's goingto make a big difference. That's
my hope. I think a lot of us canunderstand why screens are a
problem. As you mentioned, ittakes away our attention, which
is so important. It's true ifkids are sitting down to do
homework, which isn't thatinteresting for a lot of kids,
right? Let's be real, if they'resitting down to do their social
(03:56):
studies homework or write apaper, and in front of them or
next to them, is this veryaddictive screen where they can
look at what their friends aredoing and chat with their
friends and look up anythingthey want on the internet. I
would say, to tell a child tonot look at their screen is it's
just not realistic. And inaddition to that, I know we're
both very interested in Jonathanheights work. We went together
recently. We heard Jonathan Hitelecture in Santa Barbara, and I
(04:19):
just thought I would start ourconversation by sharing with the
audience some interestingstatistics that he points out
that really wake me up to theproblem that's happening. The
first is he talks about theincrease in mental health
diagnosis that since around 2010plus or minus a couple of years
coinciding with when smartphonesbecame widely available, we've
(04:41):
seen an increase in anxietydisorders, major depression, all
kinds of mental health diagnoseshave really increased since that
time, we've seen a rise in selfharm and suicide rates and
America, just to share a coupleof these stats, American teen
girls, 62% increase in suiciderates ages 15 to 19.
189%increase in younger teens age 10
to 14, and similarly, suiciderates rose by 70% for older teen
(05:05):
girls and 151%for younger teen girls compared
to previous decades. Alsoanother point to bring up,
decreased in in person, socialinteraction. To me, that is
really important when I thinkabout my childhood and what I
loved about being a kid, thebest times were always playing
with friends. Most teens used tospend a couple hours a day with
(05:25):
their friends, and now thatnumber is way decreased. And
then another big point is hetalks about sleep deprivation.
We all know that sleep is abedrock of health, and a number
of students are now getting lessthan seven hours of sleep, and
we're seeing that number declinesince 2010 so not to scare
people, I'd like to just wake upthe community that screens are
(05:46):
getting into the way of our lifein many ways that are causing
harm Absolutely. And he lays outthe case so beautifully in his
book. Jonathan Hyatt does in theanxious generation. He's also on
almost every major podcast. Soif you want to hear if any of
you are curious and want to diveinto his work, I highly
recommend the book, but I alsorecommend just searching
(06:08):
literally through any podcast.
He has a lot of long forminterviews where he lays out
what he calls the loss of theplay based childhood, and then
the development of the phonebased one and although that does
sound Stark and again, harshwhen you think about the sheer
amount of time that the averageteen or tween is spending, and
(06:30):
the ages are getting younger andyounger for that first
smartphone, we're really justseeing that those words are
true, that his thesis of thebook in one sentence, he says,
We have over protected them inthe real world, and we have
under protected them online. Ifyou really boil it down to a
sentence, that's that, that isit, and the four foundational
(06:50):
harms that you just laid out arethe ones that he says affect
most kids. So we've got thehealth and well being on a
spectrum from healthy childhood,healthy teens, to the worst case
scenario, which would be theself harm and suicide, which has
increased just signally, butthen right there in the middle,
the majority of our young peopleare dealing with these four
harms of attentionfragmentation, sleep
(07:11):
deprivation, social deprivationand addiction. And that word I
don't use lightly, but what wesee sometimes and what I hear
about also in my practice, fromfamilies who try to start to
reel it in with screen time, isa response with kids and teens
that looks like truly when youtake someone's drug of choice
(07:33):
away. And sadly, Anna Lembke,who wrote dopamine nation, says
in her book, which I highlyrecommend, that book, she talks
about how the sad part is thatwhen we if we get to that place
of addiction with anything thatproduces quick, cheap, easy
dopamine, then without it, onceit's removed, that everything
else in life seems boring. Andso we see some of those results
(07:56):
in the data on self describedlife satisfaction over the
years, and actually the resultson life satisfaction are
changing so drastically that itused to be that satisfaction was
on the U curve, so we werereally happy in our younger
years, and then mid life washarder when we were working and
building a family. And then aswe got older, the U goes back up
on the other side to show morehappiness and more life
(08:18):
satisfaction. But that haschanged so much so that it
doesn't look like a you anymore,because young people are not
satisfied with their lives. Andthat's just that really gets to
me, because when I pull back andthink about my own children and
then just the future of ourworld, you know, we're so
fortunate. We're in such a safe,relatively time with so much to
(08:38):
be grateful for. And I just wantpeople to live lives of
enjoyment and to self describetheir lives as satisfying, and
to find joy and in each otherand in why we're here. I always
think with the saying thatcomparison is the thief of joy,
and I think it's never so trueand so highlighted, as in the
case of smartphones, becausekids will compare constantly.
(09:02):
They're comparing who's betterat sports, who's better at video
games, who's wearing a betteroutfit, who's having more fun.
You're always looking at whatother people are doing, and it's
just not healthy. I have a hardtime now with my kids, because
I'm really trying to make aneffort to keep them from social
media. And what I find reallytricky is a lot of their
friends, honestly, are on socialmedia. And so when we get
(09:23):
together with those friends,they're not thinking about
Tiktok, usually, but when we'rewith friends where their kids
are on Tiktok, then it becomesreally hard for them. I can see
they feel sad. They feel leftout. My son was once
disappointed because I wouldn'tlet him play video games, and he
felt left out of schoolconversations. And I get that
what all kids want is to feellike they're fitting in. And so
(09:44):
what's hard for me as a parentis I know that this is the right
thing for our family, but then Ifeel bad because they're not
fitting in with their peers,definitely. And I talk a lot
about this, actually, as atherapist, but I will say that
what I would tell you, if wewere in that, if we were in that
relationship, is that.
That it is good for your kids tofeel left out at times, that
this is natural and normal. It'spart of the human growth
(10:07):
experience, and it is hard, andI do believe this is why we need
a collective action solution,because we don't want kids
consistently feeling left out.
We don't want kids to actuallyend up feeling bullied or
feeling really isolated, so wedo need to change things, but at
the same time, this is part ofhow we live and how we teach
kids that they don't always getwhat they want. I appreciate
(10:29):
that reminder by the good forthem. It is really good for
them. It's hard, and also too,just to talk a little bit about
parenting in the way that weparent now tends to be so
gentle, and we're so concernedabout their emotional lives, as
we should be,and we've also swung really far
into wanting to sometimes makethem just comfortable and happy,
(10:50):
and that doesn't really servethem in the long run, because
life is so hard. Life is reallya challenge, and so having
boundaries and saying no, evenwhen your kids, and I say when,
not if, when they are so mad atyou, whether it's that they
can't go to a party that there'sno parents, or whether or not
(11:10):
you're saying no to a cupcakewhen they're little, or you're
saying no to social media whenthey're too young for social
media. It's hard as a parent,but we have to know, as Dr Becky
always says, We are the pilot ofthe plane, and kids want a
sturdy pilot. They want someonewho believes in what they're
doing and stands up for it, andthat's how they're going to
(11:31):
learn to do that one day, too.
One more thing about parenting,though, I have to say, is that
we didn't have a lot of thisdata. This conversation we're
having is quite new, and there'sso much guilt and shame. And so
I just want to say, let's, like,throw all of that over into a
pile and light it on fire andleave it, leave all the guilt
and the shame aside and justsay, okay, knowing what we know
(11:54):
now, what people say, Oh, it'stoo late, or that ship has
sailed. Never, never. It's nevertoo late. We can always pick up
an exercise routine, or we canalways start to eat better. We
can always start to reduce oursedentary time or our isolation
time we have as long as we'realive, there's potential.
Absolutely no, that's a it's avery helpful reminder, because I
(12:15):
do think a lot of parents feelthat it's too late, that it's
too much a part of their lives,and they can't go back. I'm
thinking about what you'resaying, how it's our job as
parents to lay down theboundaries, and I think everyone
listening can agree with thatconcept. We wouldn't let our
kids have ice cream every nightfor dinner, even though we know
our kids would like to have icecream every night for dinner if
(12:35):
it was offered, but we know thatit's not healthy for them. We
know that's not the best thingfor our kids, so we don't let
that happen. But for whateverreason, with screens, I find
that it's a lot harder forparents to lay down those clear
boundaries. From yourperspective, why do you think
it's that way? Why do you thinkit's so hard for parents to say
no to screens? I think that is areally great question that has
(12:56):
like so many answers, but one ofthe things I want to say is just
how ingrained screens are intoour current life. So when I
started doing this work, Ireally wanted to get specific
and intentional about what wewere doing in our home and how I
myself as a fully grown woman,could do better as well. So I
started trying to put limits onmyself and on our family that
(13:19):
were spelled out. And previousto this, we'd been, I'd say, a
low screen family, but I'd neverreally measured it or considered
what our boundaries were. Mykids had been younger, too, so I
was thinking, how am I going tooperationalize this as they get
older? And I found it to bereally a challenge. So one of
(13:39):
the first things we decided todo, or I decided for our family,
is that we were going to say noscreens before breakfast, no
screens for an hour before bed,no screens at the dinner table,
just setting aside some zonesand times. And that's one of the
first things I encourage peopleto do, is to consider
(14:00):
the fact that screens areubiquitous. They are in our
bathrooms. When people shower,they're everywhere. They are
everywhere, everywhere. They'reat the gas station when you're
pumping gas, if you get in a cabin New York, they're in the back
of the cab like they're we couldliterally and oftentimes,
especially teens are and someadults are literally looking at
a screen for every second theireyes are open of the day. And so
(14:22):
to pull back from that, justthat piece alone is so hard for
parents, and I found that we hadto get a landline for our house.
So if I was going to put myphone away, good for you. You
have a landline. I like thatlandline. I was like, Okay, I'm
going to put my phone away forthese amount of times. And then
I just started thinking, if I'mgoing to try and be unplugged
more, then we should have somesense of some way to
(14:44):
communicate. So we got alandline. I also had to buy a
watch because I didn't know whattime it was. I'm wearing it
right now. We put clocks allover the house, because with
your phones and drawers, again,we had no way to tell the time.
We bought a record playerbecause we decided to do.
Tech free Shabbat in our home.
So from five o'clock on Friday,where we put the phones away,
and then I realized our phonesare hooked up to our Spotify and
(15:06):
our Sonos, so we had no way toplay any music during dinner. So
we've been figuring out just howhard it is to pull back at all.
And then I would say there'sthis added piece for parents to
children, that parents, again,want their kids to be happy, and
they assess that it's going tomake them happier, because the
kids are stomping about it. Oh,I need this. And it's really
(15:28):
hard for a parent, day in andday out, to fight that fight,
and so oftentimes we give in.
But as you mentioned in theresearch at the beginning of
this conversation, we found ithas not made them happier at
all. You know, what'sinteresting is I found what we
had to do was get rid of a lotof our media devices. So for
example, we took a long familytrip where we were on a plane.
(15:50):
We went to Japan with our kids,and I bought them iPads because
I was worried about gettingthrough the flight. And then
when we got home from the trip,they were still interested in
their iPads. They kept askingfor their iPads, and sometimes I
would acquiesce and let themlook at their iPads for a little
bit. And then it became a fight,a constant battle. They were
constantly asking me, Can I haveiPad time? Can I have iPad time?
And sometimes I would say yes.
And then, quite frankly, I washappy to have some quiet time,
(16:12):
and I could just feel it reallygetting in the way of our family
time. We were fighting more.
They were constantly thinkingabout it, and it scared me to
see how much they were thinkingabout the iPad. So finally, to
my mother in law's credit, shesaid to me, you're gonna have to
get rid of these iPads, get themout of your home. And so we did,
and she was right, and I wassurprised at how worried I was
(16:35):
to do that. I don't know what Iwas worried about, but I was
nervous that wouldn't go well,and it was honestly the best
decision, because once it wasout of the house, they stopped
asking for it. So for parentslistening, I mentioned this
because we were talking about,how can you pull back once
you've delved into the mediaworld and you can, and honestly,
your kids will be better off forit. And oftentimes, and I've
(16:57):
worked with a client, actuallyrecently with several children,
and she bravely, just did thistoo. She was terrified. Her kids
are younger than yours, and shewas using the iPads as many do.
They're so incredible. Thesedevices pull us in and can take
a screaming child to a passive,quiet one that frankly, in this
(17:20):
busy life, that a lot of parentsutilize that. And so it is very
scary to think, oh my gosh, whatam I going to do when they don't
have that, that quieter, thatpacifier, almost in the eye in
the form of an iPad. But thereality is, like you said, is
that there's a adjustmentperiod. Like with any behavior
change, there's an adjustmentperiod, and afterward, we find
(17:41):
that there's more peace in thehome that the dopamine response
that comes from these quickvideos and these bright lights,
but we feel a little bit of acrash afterward. And so when we
just completely remove access,it does make it it makes it
easier to abstain and to cutback on hours as well. Yeah. So
I like the way this conversationis going, because I know in the
(18:02):
beginning, I threw out somescary statistics. I know people
might be feeling badly aboutscreen use and all of the
potential harm that it'scausing, but what I'm really
looking forward to talking withyou more about is solutions to
this. Because there really aresome solutions. And just to
recap what you pointed out sofar, there are things that we
can replace, the things that weuse our phones for, maybe take
(18:22):
an old fashioned look andreplace them in your home, like
clocks, you pointed out moretraditional ways to play music
that don't require taking yourphone out. And then also the
point that parents, you're notalone if you're scared to pull
back on the screen, use that youcan do it. And that, I think, if
you think about the adjustmentperiod, get ready for that. But
then after that period, you willfeel better. You'll feel more
(18:44):
peace in the home. Yeah. And sowhen I started doing this work,
I created a three prongedparenting approach, because I
found myself talking doingworkshops that started out in my
home, and now they've grown. SoI really wanted to figure out,
what do I want to tell parents?
What do I think is reallyimportant to say. And so that is
delay, teach model. And so delayis obvious, that the longer we
(19:05):
delay, the less we have thosedevices in the home, the less we
have to fight it. And of course,once if you're listening to this
and your kids already havesmartphones again, we still have
solutions for that too, as tohow to roll back and how to set
some new boundaries and reallyreassess. But delaying is key. I
think delay is such an importantpoint whenever I think about
addictive behaviors, whether itbe smoking, drug use, screen
(19:28):
use, alcohol use, all of thedata shows that delay that's the
key to preventing addiction inthe adult life. For example, if
you talk to people that arealcoholics, there's a really
good chance that they tasted andliked their first sip of alcohol
before the age of 18, and thisis true for, I think, most major
(19:49):
addictions. So I bring this upbecause a lot of US adults are
very attached to our phones, andwe didn't start looking at our
phones till we were adults. Sothink about how much.
Harder it's gonna be for kidsthat start at an earlier age,
absolutely. And like I said,earlier, the trend is that it's
getting younger that we get thefirst smartphone for our kids.
And I think that's really gonnahave to swing back the other
(20:11):
way. We're gonna have to stopgetting young kids their first
smartphone for many reasons.
There was a study, actually, of28,000 young adults, so 18 to 24
from sapien labs, where they didjust a mental health survey for
these global 28,000 or so youth.
And what they found is that notonly does every year of delaying
(20:35):
improve the positive qualitiesof mental health, but it also
decreases the negatives ofmental health outcomes, and so
literally, every year that youcan wait, we should. There's a
great organization called waituntil eighth. If you look at the
fine print, it's actually waituntil the end of eighth, because
that organization is trying tohelp families and communities
(20:56):
delay the first smartphone untilhigh school. That's also
Jonathan heights recommendationis waiting until high school for
the first smartphone. It's alsomy recommendation as just a
therapist and a grassrootsorganizer advocate. Definitely,
if we can do that together, it'sgonna be easier. We can
definitely get them a flipphone. I have a flip phone now.
(21:17):
It's a quote, unquote dumbphone. It doesn't flip but it
doesn't have the internet and itdoesn't have the app store. It's
called the wise phone, and it'smade by Samsung. And I'm just, I
just figure I should, I shouldwalk the walk and see if I can
do it, see how it goes. If I'mgonna expect them to do it,
how's it going so far. It's achallenge. It is a challenge.
And I'm a bit cheating too,because I have two phones. I
(21:38):
have an iPhone for work, and soif I leave that one in the car,
typically, but if I needed to goand run and check an email, I
can do that with my work phone.
So I'm not totally abstaining,but I really wanted to see if it
was doable. So that's firstdelay. We want to delay the
first smartphone, wait tilleighth. Can help you with that?
Getting together with likeminded parents is just going to
be key, because you it's reallya challenge if your kid is the
(21:59):
only one. And just to touch onthat some more, I really do find
that is key. It's key because Iknow we were talking about how
it's part of life for kids tofeel different, that it's okay,
but if it's happening all thetime, it really is hard for
kids. So I do agree. I spend alot of time with my sister's
kids because they're like us.
And so my kids, they play games,they do puzzles, they're running
(22:20):
around outside, and they'renever thinking about the screens
when they're with their cousins.
I do find, if you can team upwith parents and make verbal
contract that you're not gonnahave screens when you get
together, it does make a hugedifference. That's a great
point, because one of the thingsthat as my son, who's almost 11,
he's got friends that are inmiddle school, several of them
and we live in we're lucky. Welive in a neighborhood where
kids are pretty free range.
(22:42):
They're running around andknocking on doors, and I found
recently, a few of his seventhand eighth grade friends are
coming over with a phone intheir pocket, which was new for
me as a mom within two seconds,of course, like moths to a
flame, they're all staring atthe one kid's brand new iPhone.
And I walked out and I was like,Okay, I'm gonna take all the
phones who has one, who has one,and only that one kid raised his
(23:04):
hand, and I was like, if youneed to text your mom and tell
her that she won't have accessto you, then do that. And so I
just and then I talked to themom later. I was like, just so,
you know, I know your kid got aphone when he's at my house, I'm
gonna have it in a drawer sothat he won't be able to access
it. And she was like, Oh, that'ssuch a good idea. And so it's
one of these things where we canown that. It's my house. I'm the
one feeding you snacks, right? Ibought the trampoline. So if you
(23:26):
come here, these are my rules.
The same thing can be done at abaseball tournament or a
softball tournament, if we takethem out to eat in between
games.
I'm not comfortable with all ofthem sitting there at the dinner
table staring at their ownindividual devices, because it's
the content that they could beseeing, of course, is
horrifying, and we know that tobe true, but the flip side for
(23:47):
that, for me as a therapist, isthat they're what they're
missing. And what they'remissing is that opportunity to
build relationships, to be ableto talk and look people in the
eye, and they're just missing somuch, and so I think we've got
some work to do with community,not just with delaying, but also
with creating places and spacesfor kids to go that are phone
free and tell everybody yourkids ages. By the way, my son is
(24:09):
about to be 11 and my daughteris eight. Amazing, so they know
when they go to your home.
That's the rule that's set ifthey're gonna go to the Freeman
home, yes, they're gonna beplaying, but they're not gonna
be playing using their devices.
And I think that's great, yeah.
And I have a feeling that,honestly, probably a lot of kids
are gonna go into your housebecause of that. I hope so.
That's the goal I really want tocreate. I hope so too place for
people to go. That's part of thework that I'm actually going to
(24:32):
be doing, which I'll get to in amoment. But I want to finish
with this delay teach modelthing. So really quick. What I
talk about with parents andworkshops is I encourage
delaying. I talk about the why.
We also talk about delayingsocial media until 16, which I
think is, again, these areminimums. And I know you heard
Jonathan Haidt say this, that asa social scientist, he's trying
to make suggestions that theworld can meet and that we can
(24:54):
look at and think, okay, maybebecause, as of right now, most
10 year olds are.
Already starting to engage inthis. So my desire is 18 for
social media, but at a minimum,we should not be filming their
middle school years because,good lord, middle school is so
hard. And who wants that outthere in the public, not me, and
then delaying social media aslong as possible, because it's
(25:15):
wildly inappropriate for kids.
But the second prong is teach.
We've got a lot to talk with ourkids about if they're going to
be exposed to the whole wideworld, which they are
eventually. And we want that forthem eventually. We know one day
they're gonna see pornography.
We know one day they're gonnasee violence, they're gonna see
really difficult things thatchallenge their values, but we
want to have been the person tohopefully talk with them about
(25:36):
some of that stuff beforehand.
So we've got a lot of work to doin the Teach prong, if we can
just put it away for chunks oftime again, zones and places and
spaces to where they feel. Ourreal attention on them, it's
really important to do. If I'mon my phone and my kids pointed
out to me, mommy, you're on yourphone, I actually welcome that
reminder, because I know thatI'm not being the best mom that
(25:56):
I can be if my phone's out. SoI'm actually glad when they tell
me. And I also think about howif I'm with a friend and they
take their phone out, then allof a sudden, subconsciously, I'm
thinking, oh, what I'm saying,isn't that interesting? I must
be boring. So maybe I'll takeout my phone too totally, and
the next thing I know, we'rehaving both of our phones out,
and that's not quality time,that's not us enjoying each
(26:16):
other's company. And so I don'twant my kids to feel that if I'm
with them, that if my phone'sout, that they're feeling less
than because my phone's out. SoI do think it's such an
important reminder to usparents, because these phones
are so addictive that we have tomake an effort to put our phones
away and consciously put themaway so that we can spend
quality time with our kids. Andthat's part of the reason why,
(26:37):
with some of the work I've beendoing as I've been
brainstorming, how do I want totake this to the next stage?
Like, what do I really want tobuild in our community that I've
decided I'm going to purchasesome yonder bags, so those are
lockable, magnetic pouches thatare used oftentimes in concerts
or comedy shows or in schools.
And the founder, his name isGreg do Goni. He said he wanted
he knows that once technologywas coming into our lives, that
(27:00):
it was going to just permeateour every experience, unless we
create national park likesettings in certain places and
spaces which were free of that.
So if you imagine like the chaosof LA and life and work and
traffic, and then you go toYosemite, and you're just in
this total national park, you'rein this totally different
(27:22):
setting, and that we need thatas like a protective thing for
our soul, almost. And so hewanted to create that as a way
to protect us from technology'schoke hold on all of our time
and attention. And so really,it's just an ingenious solution
to this problem of phoneubiquity. What I've decided to
do with in my nonprofit iscalled healthier tech is I want
(27:42):
to invest in some yonder bagsand start hosting offline clubs
to where families and kids cancome to places and spaces
throughout the year and justhost people to show up and
they're if they're willing toput their devices away for that
hour or 90 minutes. Maybe we'reat a park, maybe we're at a
coffee shop, or maybe we're atan ice cream shop, that everyone
in that space is going to bephone free for that period of
(28:04):
time. So that's part of one ofmy goals, too, is because what
we've got right now, and whathas happened, is that once a kid
has a phone, the kids don't everhave any chunk of time where
they are unplugged again. And soI want that for them. I want
them to feel it because we had aphone free concert somewhat
recently, my husband and I, andafterward, he was like, Oh my
(28:25):
gosh, she goes. I have a feelingthat if people experience what
that feels like for hours tohave an experience, and you're
fully there, just like the phonepulling out is a contagion. So
is the unpluggedness of it,because I find since I've been
doing this work with my ownfamily and myself, I want more
(28:45):
of it. I'm drawn to it, and I'mdrawn to those conversations and
environments in which people areso super present. And if it's
not that, I find it to be alittle lackluster. It's great.
It's true. It is it is true thatif you're engaged in a
conversation with someone, andthe screens come out, it
definitely diminishes thequality of the conversation. So
(29:06):
tell everybody more abouthealthier tech, the nonprofit
that she started again in thefall of 2023
I started talking to moms in myown home, offering coffee and
really begging people to come tomy house, because I just wanted
to get my son, who's my oldest,I wanted to get his friend's
parents on board with delayingthe first smartphone, but what I
(29:26):
found was that there was such aneed for conversation around
this topic, and that so manypeople felt lost and overwhelmed
and scared. And so I reallywanted to dig deeper and do some
more research. And so I did afew more talks. And then in the
meantime, Jonathan Haidtpublished the anxious
generation, and that same month,this journalist in New York, her
name is Julie skalfo, started agrassroots movement of parents
(29:48):
called mama, which stands forMothers Against media addiction.
So she launched mama inBrooklyn, New York, in March of
last year, and I read about.
It, I read about her desire, andbasically it's to fight big
Tech's hold on childhood, and toadvocate for and fight for a
world in which real lifeexperiences and interactions are
(30:11):
at the heart of a healthychildhood. And her vision for
that was threefold, parenteducation, getting phones out of
schools, and then legalsolutions too, because as of
right now, other countries aredoing things at the national
level, and we've got some thingshappening too in our country at
the state level, but theseproducts are, as they are now,
(30:32):
completely unsafe, and it'sunfair for parents to have to
bear the burden of that, to haveto keep their children safe from
something that's not safe. Sothat really interested me. So I
was probably one of the firstpeople who reached out to her
and said, I'm already doing theparent education piece, and I
want to do more. I want to workwith getting phones out of
schools. I want to do whatever Ican. I think that piece is huge.
(30:54):
And then I don't know much aboutlegislation, but I'm, I'm, I'm
jumping in on that piece too. SoI joined, and I launched our
Westlake Village, Conejo Valley,greater Conejo chapter. If
you're anywhere in LA and youwant to be a part of it, please
let me know. I'll sign you upfor our my I say our, it's just
kind of me monthly newsletter,but I've got 150
people on the newsletter, andwe've had a few gatherings since
(31:16):
then. So I keep my own nonprofitstatus for the parent Ed piece,
because that piece is realparent and kid. I speak to kids
too. That piece has taken over alot of the work that I do in my
day to day life. So as it turnsout, it was necessary. I'm
probably speaking to a group afew times a month at this point.
(31:37):
So that's like through my ownlittle healthier tech piece, but
also under the greater umbrellaof this awesome organization
that encourages community.
Because I don't want to be a onewoman show. I want a chapter of
powerful parents around me, andI want to just reiterate that
the group is for parents andteachers and allies and
grandparents and uncles andanybody who just wants to really
see a return to real lifeexperiences over the span of
(32:01):
childhood and adolescence. Andyou also are doing talks for
kids too, yes. So I've beenspeaking at schools. I've been
speaking at people's homes,really, wherever anyone will
have me. And I've got a fewdifferent topics that I've been
working on for kids. One of themis just about balance, and how
certain choices make us feelwhen we look at certain things
online. And then another one isabout the dopamine, the dopamine
(32:21):
response to quick videos, whichwe know it really changes our
ability to attend over time. Ifour brain expects new stimuli
every 20 seconds, and kids getit. Kids are online almost
constantly right now, especiallyteens, constant quick dopamine,
and then everything else otherthan that, preferred activity,
screen time, it's going to feelboring, which is just that to
(32:41):
me, and that is what we cannothave, is a world of kids that
are bored by the world that's sosad, so sad. It's true. I
actually got nervous last night.
My son told me he likes seeingreels. He goes, I like reels
because we've been watching somecomedy together before bed, and
that got me nervous. I said,Wait, we need to go back to
reading books before bed. Andhe's almost 12. So we spent a
(33:04):
lot of years where we where ourhabit was to read books before
bed, and we've gotten into somebad habits, but it's okay. We'll
take a step back. We'llreadjust. Yes, we always do
every holiday season. We haveto, like, recalibrate afterward,
because I always we alwaysoverdo it with cookies, and we
always feel a little grossafter. So I think it's part of
what we do as parents, and wejust have to transition it to
(33:25):
this issue too, because parentsare like, Oh, I don't know how
I'm gonna do it. And like, butyou do because we do it all the
time. Yes, no, that's a goodreminder that we can and we
should recalibrate now, ifpeople are listening and they're
thinking, Oh, I would love tohave her come speak to my mom
friends, parent friends, mychurch, my kids school. Can they
reach out to you? Absolutely. SoI have a website. It's www dot
(33:48):
healthier tech.org,and you can find me there. You
can reach out to me. You canalso sign up for my newsletter
there, and then you'll knowabout what's going on. I'm
trying to do something every sooften, a few times a year that
the community can come to if youwant to know what's going on
there and what's going on toonationally, there's a lot going
on with this legislation,different pieces of legislation,
and also, a lot of people havesaid they want to help out with
(34:11):
school policies, because it'snot really just the smartphone.
So there's a lot to be done. Ifyou have any questions, just
reach out. Now, I thought,before we finish up, I thought
it might be helpful if you and Iboth share some realistic,
actionable tips to maybe helpparents steer their kids away
from too much time on thescreens. Sure, do you want to
start? Or should I start? Yougo, I would encourage parents to
(34:32):
let their kids try things thatare out of the house that you
might not be comfortable withfor example, I've been having my
kids go to the grocery store bythemselves. I give them money.
They go in and they buy thethings that they want. I've been
letting my kids ride their bikesoutside. I've been letting them
walk to their friends' houses bythemselves. Let them walk home
(34:53):
from their friends' houses bythemselves. I've been having
them walk the dog by themselves.
I'm really in.
Encouraging them to participatein activities out of the home
without me, because I find thatgives them some natural
excitement, and I find thattakes them away from thinking
about screens. I'm so glad thatyou said that, because we
touched on the harms earlier.
But now we're talking reallyabout Jonathan heights four
(35:15):
solutions, delaying the firstsmartphone until 14, which we
talked about delaying socialmedia till 16, which we talked
about getting phones out ofschools, which we've talked
about, but the fourth one wehadn't until now. And the fourth
one is more free time, playtime, responsibility and
independence in the real world.
And that piece is huge, becauseif you just take away the
screens, it feels likepunishment. What do we even do
(35:38):
with these kids? If you justtake away the screens. We've got
to let them go outside, which isreally where they should be.
They should be with theirfriends doing things that scare
us just a little bit, the risky,rough and tumble play that
teaches them, it makes them feelless anxious when they know that
they can handle themselves, thatthey've tried something and they
maybe fell out of that tree andthey were okay, that's going to
(36:00):
be a lot more resilient of a kidthan a kid who's afraid to climb
that tree. So we've got to havethem go do more, and especially
the older they get. It's time 12year olds used to babysit. Now
12 year olds have a babysitter.
What's going on here? So wereally need to allow them to
feel that they're able toparticipate in this world. That
is such a great way to squashanxiety. I know you interviewed
(36:21):
Lenore skenazzi, and she's gotthat great book, free range
kids. She's got herorganization, let grow, which
you can find a lot of people areafraid, really afraid, to let
their kids go outside. But ifyou look at her website,
letgrow.org there's research andstatistics from the FBI that
shows we do not have a rampantkidnapping problem. The world is
much safer. The real world ismuch safer than we think that it
(36:43):
is, and online is actually wherea lot of the problems are
happening. So thank you forbringing that up. I'm glad that
we didn't stop this conversationbefore we talked about that.
Peter Gray, who was also on thepodcast a while back, he had a
great line that I think about alot. He said, The truth is,
nobody wants your children. Sotrue. He said, if you look if
you think about kidnappings, orif you look into kidnappings,
truthfully, it's almost alwaysfrom a family member, a
(37:06):
contentious relationship in yourlife. It's usually not a
surprise stranger out on thestreets that takes your
children. I think about that alot because it is an inherent
worry with a lot of parents. Andthe thing about worry and risk
is that nothing is risk free. Soyou might save yourself the
worry by telling yourself thatit's less risky for your kid to
be at home, indoors, on theirown, maybe on a device. But it's
(37:29):
not see the sedentary, isolatedbehavior alone is riskier than
them being out and about, andit's not a quality childhood
when you think back about howmuch fun being a kid was, the
fun was being out with yourfriends and playing and getting
into trouble and riding yourbike and going to shops with
your friends. It had nothing todo with being on screens. I
(37:51):
challenge people to think aboutwhat was your best memory as a
kid. I'm willing to bet that ithad nothing to do with screen
time. Totally one, one sort ofmeasurable or simple way that I
like to share with people to getto reduce screen time. Sometimes
people are like, Oh, I can'tfollow the American Academy of
Pediatrics rule of two hoursmax. That's way too little.
(38:14):
We're a heavy media family. Thatdoesn't work for us. And yet I
still I hear what you're saying.
I do wanna reduce screen time. Isay, okay, you can use balance
as a measure. Then considerwhether or not they have moved
their bodies, spent time in reallife with friends, done their
chores as they should have,chores to participate in the
(38:34):
home and to feel like ameaningful participant in the
world. Have they done theirhomework? Have they read a book
or read something that day, allof the things that they should
do, if they've done all of thosethings, then digital media might
be something to use. But untilthen, that's when we get out of
whack. Is if we what we do whenwe are online seven to nine
(38:55):
hours a day, is we don't doanything else. So using balance
as a measurement is helpful forthose who don't want to
particularly say lock it down to30 minutes or an hour a day.
That's a different way oflooking at it. Yes, you want to
lead your life by doing thoseactivities that we know are good
for us, and then if there's timeat the end of the day,
absolutely fitting in a littlescreen time where it feels
balanced, I agree is okay. Yeah,yes. Thank you so much. I really
(39:17):
appreciate this conversation,because I think it's really
important for parents to beaware not just of the harms of
screen time, but also thinkabout the solutions and how we
can swing the pendulum back inthe other direction. Thank you
so much for having me. Thank youfor being here. I really
appreciate the conversation.
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review,
(39:39):
wherever it is, you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica. See
you next Monday. You.
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