In this episode of Your Child Is Normal, I’m joined by Dr. Larry Waldman, a behavioral psychologist and author of Who's Raising Whom?, to unpack how behavioral psychology can make parenting easier — and more effective. We talk about how small, consistent changes in how we respond to our children can lead to big shifts in their behavior.
You’ll learn:
- Why kids sometimes misbehave just to get attention — and how to turn that around
- How to use praise and logical consequences that actually work
- Why consistency matters more than perfection
Whether you’re dealing with whining, ignoring, or sibling chaos, this conversation is full of practical tools to help you parent with less stress and more confidence.
📘 Learn more about Dr. Waldman’s work at topphoenixpsychologist.com
📚 Books mentioned: Who's Raising Whom?, Coping with Your Adolescent, Love Your Child More Than You Hate Your Ex
Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.
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Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Welcome back to your child is normal. I'm your host,
(00:02):
Dr Jessica Hochman, and todayI'm joined by Dr Larry Waldman,
a psychologist with a doctoratein clinical psychology, and he
has decades of experiencehelping families better
understand and respond to theirchildren's behavior. He's the
author of several parentingbooks, including who's raising
whom a personal favorite. Inthis episode we explore how
simple, consistent parentingstrategies rooted in behavioral
(00:24):
psychology can help shape yourchild's behavior over time.
Behavioral psychology focuses onhow behavior is learned through
reinforcement, and how applyingthese simple principles can help
parents handle everydaychallenges with greater
confidence. And let's be honest,who out there wouldn't like to
parent with greater confidence?
And before we get started withtoday's episode, if you're
finding your child is normal,helpful, please take a moment
and leave a five star review. Ithelps other parents find the
(00:47):
show, and it also reminds themyour child is normal. Dr, Larry
Waldman, thank you so much fortaking the time to be here
today. I'm so looking forward tohearing your insights.
Thank you. I appreciate theopportunity.
So you've written seven books,three books which apply to
parenting directly, telleverybody about your career,
(01:09):
what you do now, and how youwere so inspired to write all of
these books,I knew I wanted to help people,
and the field of psychologycertainly intrigued me, so I got
my masters in educationalpsychology at University of
Wisconsin, Milwaukee, and whenwe came out to Arizona in 1973 I
(01:34):
started out as a schoolpsychologist with Scottsdale
schools, while at the same time,I worked on my doctorate at
Arizona State. I met my mentor,Dr Carl ream. He was the
Clinical Director of the specialdevelopment clinic at Milwaukee
(01:58):
Children's Hospital and I sawfirsthand the power of
behavioral psychology appliedappropriately, because some of
those kids we turned completelyaround. Now, back in those days,
this is now early 70s, a lot ofthose kids were kept at home.
(02:23):
The school could keep a disabledchild out of school and say,
Look, you're too much of aproblem. We can't deal with you.
It wasn't until 1974 that thisthat the federal special
education law was passed whereschools were now required to
provide an adequate education toevery child regard, regardless
(02:49):
of disability, but some of thosekids actually returned to school
even before that law was passed,Because of the way we managed
and shaped their behavior nowand then I saw, of course, when
I got into private practice,that these these techniques, are
very applicable to normalfamilies, if you will, because I
(03:14):
was meeting so many parents whoWere getting driven crazy by
their kids, and so I spent lotsof time basically teaching
parents to become behaviortherapists, if you will. That's
wonderful. What I'm sointerested in is you have this
(03:38):
deep foundation of behavioralpsychology. And I think what's
so fascinating to me is you canapply these principles to help
parents with the mostchallenging moments that arise
with parenting. So I find thispersonally extra interesting,
because not only am I a parentof three kids, but also I was a
psycho biology major in collegewhere we talked a lot about this
(03:59):
applying behavioral psychology,but to animals and not really so
much to children. So as I readyour books, it's so interesting
that we can apply those sameprinciples to parenting our kids
when it comes to rewards andconsequences. So what I would
love to do with you is askingsome specific examples as it
relates to common struggles thatparents have with their kids,
(04:22):
and maybe it will help parentsthe next time they come across a
challenge with their kids. Sure,the essence of behavioral
psychology is essentially thathow we respond to consequences
of our behavior shape us, and sotherefore good parenting in a
(04:44):
sentence comes down to applyingappropriate consequences to
their children's behavior, andthat's of course, over.
Oversimplifying it. And as Ilike to say, you know,
understanding behavioralpsychology is very simple,
(05:07):
applying it is very difficult.
So with with behavioralpsychology it, you know, the
question becomes, and thequestion that parents should ask
themselves is, what is he or shelearning? What? What is the
(05:29):
lesson being learned here?
That's what it comes down to.
Basically, Iwant to make sure people
understand what we're what we'retalking about when you talk
about behavioral psychology andhow it's simple to understand.
Can you explain it?
Well, the focus is on what theperson is doing. And of course,
(05:53):
in the case of parenting, youknow, is what is the child's
behavior. And therefore, asparents, you know, we want to
raise independent andresponsible young people. That
was in my head when I became aparent. I have two grown sons
(06:14):
now, so I'm very proud of themand so on. Plus, they're not
asking me for any money here.
So, job well done. Yeah,exactly. But you as I'm
parenting, you know, I'm notdoing it, just by the seat of my
pants, if you will. Andunfortunately, most parents
don't have a plan. That doesn'twork. It's confusing. You
(06:41):
mentioned earlier thatbehavioral psychology is
applied, let's say, even toanimals. Well, yes, you know. So
using that, if you get a puppy,for instance, and you want to
potty train that puppy, okay,you know. And, and so if the
pop, if the puppy you know hasan accident, you know, you might
(07:04):
say no, and so forth. And thenyou take the puppy out, and then
the puppy you know goes, youknow, on the lawn where you want
it to go. So if you on aconsistent basis, you reward the
puppy, you know, for goingoutside. The puppy very quickly
comes to learn, oh, when I gopee, pee outside, I, you know, I
(07:28):
get petted and cared for andtreated, etc. Okay, well, it's
kind of how it works with kidsas well. The problem is, is we
is many parents are veryinconsistent in in how they deal
with them. So also the truth ofthe matter is, is the parents
(07:51):
are actually creating a biggerproblem for themselves, and the
way they do that is that they'reactually giving the child, like
the puppy, a little treat at thewrong time. What's the most
valuable thing we as parents canprovide our children, especially
(08:16):
our young children,attention, exactly, okay. You
read the book. Attention ourtime now, remember, kids are
born naked and naive, okay? Theydon't know what's good or bad,
right or wrong. They havenothing to compare it to. They
(08:38):
live within the confines oftheir home, and what they see
is, as far as they're concerned,the reality their reality. But
like any child, of course, theywant parental attention. They
crave it well, and as you know,if you fail to give adequate
(09:00):
attention, even to a newborn,that can create serious medical
problems. So attention iscritical. Kids need it, want it
and deserve it,and they'll do anything for it.
They'll act in any way to get itexactly, of course, they want
it. So you see, then it's up tous to determine when they get
(09:25):
this valuable commodity.
It's, you know, cognitively, Iknow that attention is so
important for kids, but I haveto say, in real life, as a
working mom with a workingspouse and three young kids,
it's hard to give the attentionthat I wish I could to each of
my children, just just as acommentary. I think for parents
(09:48):
to know you just want to do thebest that you can. I don't
believe there's such a thing asa perfect parent, but I think
the idea is you just want to doyour best and give quality
attention as best that you can.
Yeah.
Absolutely look. I mean, you'vegot to put food on the table and
so on. As you pointed out, kidswill do what they can to get
(10:11):
attention, and they don't knowthe difference truly, between
what we call good attention andbad attention. In fact,
sometimes bad attention is moreinteresting than getting good
attention,if you will. I'm just thinking
of my own children last night,my my son takes great pleasure
in agonizing his his sisters. Heloves the attention he gets from
(10:34):
bothering them.
This has been researched.
Studies have been done wherethey've gone into homes and
observed and so forth, butbasically what we find is that
about 90% of the time whenchildren are misbehaving, they
(10:56):
get their parental attention.
Unfortunately, only about 10% ofthe time when the child is
behaving. Well, do they getparental recognition?
Okay? So from your perspective,it sounds like we parents are
not rewarding positive behaviorsufficiently,
(11:17):
absolutely, and we're overreacting to the inappropriate
behavior.
So can you give an example ofwhat appropriate positive
attention would look like? Iknow you referenced the term the
sleeping dog phenomenon. Canyou? Can you, can you explain
what that is and go into it alittle bit, because this was eye
opening for me, because I thinkthat I am that parent sometimes
(11:39):
where I see my kids doing goodbehaviors, like, let's say they
sit down to do their homework.
And I think I, you know, afterreading your book, I realize I
don't give them enough praisefor those behaviors. Exactly.
That's what I call it, thesleeping dog philosophy. You
know, when the dog is sleeping,you leave it alone, right? Well,
you know, if you walk by yourchild's room and there he or she
(12:01):
is sitting there studying. Take10 seconds, walk in there, put
your hand on their back and go,you know, Millie or Susie. And
so, you know, it really, itreally is so nice to see you
working so hard and so forth.
You know, you're, you're goingto be really, really smart, you
know, and walk outand what child, what child won't
(12:23):
love hearing praise from theirparents. I'm 44, years old. I
still love hearing praise frommy parents. Exactly.
That's true.
I know that intuitively it makessense. We're all we all know
this. But just as a reminderthat kids love hearing praise.
So if you're seeing a behaviorthat you want to see more of,
(12:43):
let them know, absolutely, andyou'll see more of it if you let
them know, right? Sure. I mean,you know, the brother and the
sister are playing a gametogether, and there's no
shouting, there's no yelling.
You walk over and say, Hey guys,I really appreciate the way you
can play so so quietly andcooperatively. There's no
(13:07):
yelling, and you're being niceto each other, you know, when
you're finished with the game, Ihave some brownies we can make
for dessert. Yeah. And so thereit is. You know, instead of
waiting and hoping, oh, I hopeyou keep, they keep playing
nicely together, because as soonas that starts there, as soon as
(13:30):
the mom, then in you come, okay,well, duh, look what's happened.
And of course, the you know, thebrother, you know, was going,
you know, I teased my sister alittle bit she saw and here
comes mom. Look at this, youknow, I got my sister going, I
(13:52):
got my mom going,right? And then, as the
principal of behavioralpsychology says, if they get
good, fun attention for theirbehaviors, whatever it may be,
they're going to do more of it.
Exactly. They're going to followthe trail, okay, just like the
puppy learns, you know, to gooutside, they're going to do
(14:14):
more of that. Because that'swhen, you know, that's, that's
when they get, you know, gettheir rewards and so on.
Now, the other important keypoint that you mentioned when it
comes to rewarding positivebehavior is doing it immediately
that you don't want to wait toolong before you provide that
reward.
Well, yes, and there, and thereare some elements of that, okay,
(14:39):
delayed reinforcement is justabout useless to tell a, you
know, a six year old, gee, youknow you're being a good boy.
You know, at four o'clock when Ifinish work, and this is now
nine in the morning, at fouro'clock when we finish. Which
(15:00):
will go to the park. Well, youknow, that's That's like telling
adults save money for a rainyday. And the other important
piece in all the examples that Ihave previously given here, I've
been very specific aboutpointing out the behavior. I'm
(15:21):
not saying, Good job. Way to go.
I'm proud of you. No, I'm beingvery specific, pointing out the
very particular behavior that Iam reinforcing the look, oh,
Billy and Susie, you're playingso cooperatively. You're taking
turns. There's no yelling, sosee now what the children have
(15:42):
learned, okay, is that, Oh,these are the behaviors I need
to exhibit to get the attentionthat I crave.
I also think about my dog. Iknow dogs are different than
humans, but if my dog does abehavior for me, like she sits
(16:03):
when I ask her to, I have toimmediately praise her. If I
wait five minutes later, she'sgoing to have no idea what I
praised her for. She's not goingto connect that she sat and I
was happy about that. So youhave to think about that
similarly with kids. Kids have afleeting memory. You have to
reward them in real time, right?
If you wait 30 seconds with yourdog, it's gone. No, it has to
(16:24):
right then. And you know, let's,let's say you know you are
planning to go to the park.
Well, what better time to do it,immediately after they've done
some really nice behavior. Okay,they don't know you are planning
to go or do this or that, butnow we connect the two. Oh, and
then on the way to Oh, I'm gonnahave so much fun at the park.
(16:45):
Isn't it nice that you did suchand such and so and so we can
now go to the park.
Yes, when kids have goodbehavior, you want to send the
message that with that goodbehavior will come more fun
experiences, happier parents, agood day all around
I used to say in workshops thatmy kids, my two sons,
(17:05):
manipulated me all during theirchildhood. They behaved well,
and then I reinforced them. Ithink this is a really good
point to bring up, because toomuch of our time can can feel
like we are disciplining ourkids chastising them, telling
them that what they're doing iswrong or inappropriate, or
correcting their behavior, andI'd much rather spend the time
(17:27):
rewarding them. That just feelsbetter. So I think that's such
an important reminder.
And especially as they growolder, they do more and more of
that. Yes, andif the ultimate I always think
about the ultimate goal withparenting, and that is, I want
to have a great relationshipwith my relationship with my
kids. I want to be I want themto call me when they're adults.
And I think if you have goodexperiences with them, that's
(17:48):
much more likely to happen,absolutely. Yeah. Now, now, what
about negative consequences? Sounfortunately, as we all know,
if you're anyone who spends timewith kids. Kids like to do
negative things for behavior. Soyou know, whether it's whining
or yelling or misbehaving in oneway or another, it's what kids
(18:09):
do. So how? And this can cause alot of stress for parents,
because I think a lot of usdon't know how to react. Our
instincts are often to to reactalong with them. So as a
behavioral psychology, what doyou what's your advice for us,
parents?
Okay, when it comes to thenegative piece, again, I can't
(18:31):
over emphasize the positivepiece, but you know, we're not,
you know we're not living inEden here, you know, there's,
there's, there's always going tobe some gray clouds. And so
we're all human. After all,we're not, unfortunately, we're
not perfect.
(18:52):
All right, sopart of of this approach here is
that the parent tests become anobjective observer of their
children's behavior. They haveto do that because they have to
recognize when it's good, andthen they have to recognize when
it's not. Now when it's not, youhave another question to ask
(19:14):
yourself, and that is, is itdangerous? Harmful or
destructive, if the kids playingwith fire or taking a running
around with a hammer or a knifeor something, or abusing their
sibling or kicking the wall,okay, there needs probably to be
(19:38):
some intervention there. Hereagain, that's been pretty well
researched, and what we find isvery, very little of
inappropriate behavior meetsthat first category, dangerous,
harmful. Destructive. Most ofthe time it's whining,
(20:01):
complaining, procrastinating,you know, things of that nature.
So you're saying that most, ifmost of the time, these
behaviors are not destructive.
We don't have to intervene, youknow, we don't have to call 911,
sound, the fire alarms. They'rejust irritating behaviors, is
that what you're saying,or they procrastinate.
(20:27):
My kids learned early on that,you know, we there was a set
time to be like, be dressed andso forth, and if they were
dressed and so forth, you know,we might even have time to watch
a little TV or something beforethe bus came or whatever. In
(20:49):
fact, my younger son learned acouple of times that, you know,
if he wasn't dressed in timewhen I had to go and I had a
clock, that means they could setthe time, so they knew exactly
when they needed to be dressed.
I walked in his room. Great, youknow, he hadn't, didn't he
happened. Didn't have a shirton, didn't have his shoes or
socks. Grabbed the shirt,grabbed took them by the hand,
(21:10):
placed them in the car andpicked up the other other kids.
In fact, I loved it. Soon as alittle girl walked, you know,
came into the car, she looked atChad and said, Chad, why are you
naked? And he was all because hedidn't have a shirt on you. And
then I dropped him off atschool, and then other people
were looking at him like, whyaren't you dressed? And so
(21:32):
forth. See, that's a lovelylogical consequence to that
procrastinating behavior. Did heget any of my attention? No,
what did he get? Discomfort,social discomfort by not being
dressed well, that's life. Andsee, remember, I'm trying to
(21:54):
raise independent andresponsible young people, and
life works that way. You know,when you're not responsible,
when you're not independent,life gives you ashes. You know,
you get you get fired, or youget disciplined and so forth.
You get criticized. Well, that'swhat happens. I like hearing
(22:18):
this example from you as aparent, because I like in the
beginning, you fast forward andlet us know that your kids are
independent. They're they're notasking you for money. They have
their own families. So it'sgreat to hear that what you did
and how your techniques forparenting were fruitful. Kudos
to you.
(22:40):
Well, thank you. Yeah.
Now I have a question for you.
No relating to these nondangerous behaviors. A big
example, I hear parents all thetime. They bring their kids in
for checkups, and they say, canyou just check my my kids
hearing? They never listen tome. I ask them things all the
time, and I and I can't help butwonder maybe their hearing isn't
(23:01):
right, because I'll ask them to,you know, pick up their clothes,
567, times, and they ignore me.
And so vast, vast majority ofthe time their hearing is is, in
fact, perfect hearing. Andparents are bewildered. They
say, I swear, I ask themquestions and I ask them with a
serious tone, and they justignore me. So how can parents
(23:22):
use behavioral psychology toreinforce behaviors like
listening?
All right, the kids wereresponsible for keeping the room
clean, okay? And they knew when,when they left for school their
room was clean or and if thingsare off the floor. Now, as I
(23:45):
would walk, walk back to my roomand so forth, and I'd look in
and there's, there's a shirt ormaybe a pair of shoes lying out,
what I simply did is pick themup and hid them well. If they're
going to leave them out, youknow, and not put them away. The
natural consequence of thatbehavior is you don't get to
(24:06):
wear them for a while. And theycame back from school and said,
Well, I want Where's, where's mygood shoes? I said, You mean the
ones you left out. I don't knowwhere they are for now, maybe
with you, learn to put them backup, you know. Okay, nice, little
logical con, not a big yellscreen, so forth. If you leave
(24:26):
the MC, that's life.
So the idea is a logicalconsequence. So so to draw upon
your example, if they're notlistening to you and you say,
Billy, can you please clean yourroom? Can you please clean your
room? Can you please clean yourroom? The toys and the clothes
that they left out. If youinstead clean them up when they
go, when they next go lookingfor their toys and their
(24:47):
clothes, you can say, well,they're not here. You didn't
listen to me when I asked you toclean them up, so my feeling was
they weren't that important toyou, so I put them away, and
then they're not there for themwhen they want them. Is that the
idea?
Yeah, exactly. You know. Thereis a logical consequence for it.
Here's the other thing youtalked about, classic example
(25:10):
wherefive year old, six year old,
Timmy comes into the kitchen.
Okay, it's 5 (25:17):
15pm mom's in the kitchen busy making dinner. She
just got home. She's trying toget dinner for the family, and
so, okay, he comes in and hesays to Mom, Mom, I'm hungry. I
want a cookie. Okay, what doesmom say? How
(25:38):
about instead of a cookie? Westart with some good growing
foods. I'll cut you up somestrawberries. Once you eat some
good growing foods, then we canhave a cookie afterwards.
Okay, something to that effect,or, you know, Timmy, I'm making
dinner. We're going to eat inabout 1520 minutes. You know, if
you eat a good dinner, we'llhave a cookie for dessert. So,
(25:59):
okay, so what does Timmy do orsay,
Mommy, I promise, if I have mycookie now, I'll still have a
good dinner,right? He comes back. Look, you
know, I want a cookie now.
Sorry. Okay, and now, what doesmommy do? I'm
really sorry, but I'm makingdinner. I'm working hard on
dinner, so we're gonna have thecookie after dinner,
(26:21):
she already made a very, youknow, strong argument before a
very positive one, and and and atrue one, all right, but, but he
asked. He asked again. And whatdoes she do? She restates, okay,
all right. And this goes on acouple more times, okay. Now her
restatements get shorter andshorter, but she's getting
(26:44):
angrier and angrier because shecan't finish dinner. Okay, so
somewhere around the fourth orfifth request, finally, mom's
had it and says, All right,here, take your darn cookie and
get out of the kitchen. Okay?
And the kid takes his cookie andwalks up. Now, remember, as I
said at the start of thispresentation, the question is,
(27:05):
what is the kid learning?
Kids Learning that the more theynag their parents and the more
they resist their request,they're going to get what they
want eventually, which isn'tgood. Hello. And then, and then
the mother thinks, Oh, my God,his mate, his hearing is bad, or
He's so stubborn, he takes afterhis uncle, Willie. You
(27:29):
know, it's so important forparents to have boundaries.
Someone once explained it to methat we should think of
ourselves as a wall that kidswant to push on the wall, push
on the wall, push on the wall,but we know a wall is very
unlikely to move despite beingpushed on. And if you, if you
teach the kid that you're notgoing to move, that you hold
that boundary, they're going tostop pushing, and they're going
to comply. But if you keep them,if you, if you send the message
(27:51):
that if they keep pushing, theykeep pushing, they keep pushing,
and eventually you cave. You'resending them that message that
that that's the behavior thatthey should be doing if they
want to get what theywant, absolutely. This is called
intermittent reinforcement. Thebest, my
favorite example of intermittentreinforcement is like slot
machines. You put the money in,you put the money and you put
(28:13):
the money in, it doesn't come,but eventually it comes, and you
might strike big,exactly. And that's behavioral
psychology right there. And theymake billions on on that, on
that concept. Okay, now in my ifI were that mother and that, and
that, and Tim, my kid came in,Daddy, I want a cookie. I'll
see. You know, no, you know,we're Dinner will be served in
(28:36):
about 20 minutes. The cookiecould interfere with your
dinner. If you eat a nicedinner, we'll be sure to have a
cookie. But daddy, and then he'sgone. As far as I'm concerned,
he's gone. I'm back to cooking.
You can whine all you want. I'mnot responding.
(28:58):
And the hope is that eventuallythat whining will extinguish,
right? That's the hope,exactly I'm done. He's heard my
message. I'm not going to repeatmyself like an idiot. And then
he's noticed now the kids incontrol, he's got you repeating
yourself half a dozen times, andfinally gets the darn cookie.
(29:19):
Well, hey, if I was a kid, well,you know, that's a lot of power
and control, to be honest withyou, I was a terrible child
because my mother was 20 yearsold. Didn't know up from down
and so forth. And, you know,bright kids learn this
manipulation thing veryearly. I mean, I definitely hear
(29:42):
what you're saying, andcognitively, this all makes
sense, but it is hard to hearyour kids crying. Sometimes it's
hard to stick to thoseboundaries. You ask your kid,
can we make a compromise? Howabout if I give you a date
that's sweet and it's healthy.
How about if we do something inbetween? Mean, I do feel like,
realistically, sometimes it ishard for parents to hear their
(30:04):
kids crying. And I wish I couldand apply the concepts of
behavioral psychology in allinstances, but it's tricky.
Okay. I mean,it is. But, you know, every
parent learns to decipher thekids cry they you can tell when
they're really hurt and so on.
And when they're and whenthey're doing it for effect,
(30:25):
yes, that's a good point tobring up, yeah,
and and when they're doing itfor effect, I want nothing to do
with that, because whining andcomplaining, you know, and fake
crying is not one of those youknow life skills, you know that
that we want to have our kidscarry into adulthood?
(30:46):
Yes, absolutely, no. That's agreat point. I'm always thinking
about what are some logicalconsequences for unwanted
behaviors, and sometimes I worrythat the natural consequences
are doing a disservice to bothof us, and I'll give you
example. So last night atdinner, for example, after
dinner, there are a lot ofdishes out, the food was out.
(31:08):
And I asked my kids, can youhelp me put dinner away? And
they said, Oh, we'll get to itlater. And I'm someone I don't
like leaving food out. I like todo it right away. And I said, if
you guys don't help me, I'm notgoing to have time to put you to
bed later and tuck you in. Andso I put the food away, and they
didn't get up and help me. Andthen when it came time for
bedtime and they asked for atuck in, I didn't have time for
(31:30):
it. But then in my heart, I feltbad, because I do enjoy those
tuck ins. So you know, sometimesI feel like logical
consequences. Can not feelperfect, if that makes sense.
Well, remember, also, you'retalking about what we refer to
as contingencies and and whatyou just said is, what a lot of
parents do is they reverse it.
You know, the true contingencyis if A, then B. Okay, what
(31:53):
you're doing is if, if not a,then not be so you know one
option you could have tried, atleast, you know, is that is, say
you dear, if you don't dear, ifyou turn off the TV now, I'll
have time to read you a story.
(32:16):
Or, you know when, you knowwhen, when you help me clear the
dishes here, you know they'llget that'll give me enough time
to tuck you into bed. So it's ifA then B, as opposed to the
negative, and that and that,that that could encourage them
to do, to do that. And if theydo, then you can reinforce, you
(32:40):
know, their their compliance. Soyeah, stated, you try to state
these in the positive direction,not not the negative one, and
it'll, you'll probably, you'llprobably have more success with
that.
So just thinking, as we concludethis conversation, if you could
(33:01):
think of one key takeaway thatyou'd like parents to remember
about applying behavioralpsychology to their parenting
approach, what would itbe? Well, I think you can tell
it, it's catch them when they'regood,
catch them when they're good,because it's true, it's much
more fun to reward kids fordoing good things than to get
into a battle and be upset withthem when
(33:23):
they're not doing good things.
Well, if you're getting intobattles, shame on you, because
they're in control, and it's notjust a matter of control, but
you're teaching them skills thatare not going to serve them well
as they get older. Ithink what's so hard about
parenting is I can read thebooks and I can talk rationally
with friends, with adults, butsometimes in the moment, it is
(33:47):
just so hard. Another lastquestion. This is a real last
question. I love the title,who's raising, whom? Who came up
with it? How'd you come up withthat? Lot of my titles that from
my books come from patients, andI had a very frustrated mother
who did just say that, who'sraised, but she said, who's
raising who? And then, I mean, Ithought, Oh, that's perfect, by
(34:07):
the way, I have two other booksthat apply to children. Here's
this one. Of course this, thisis coping with your adolescent.
So if you haven't, if youhaven't, haven't read this one,
you're going to certainly needthis one, as I like to say,
who's raising? Who open withyour adolescent? Yeah.
(34:29):
And this one came out duringCOVID. It's entitled. Love your
child more than you hate yourex. Whatever divorced parent
needs, needs to know as well,fantastic. The books are
available on my website, whichis top Phoenix psychologist.com
or, of course, you can get itthrough Amazon as well.
(34:53):
Well, I'm very proud of you. I'mvery proud of the wonderful work
that you've done. You're helpingso many families navigate
through. What's the most joyousexperience in life I find
raising children, but also themost difficult. So thank you so
much. All of this insight reallyhelps, and I appreciate your
time, and thank you for beinghere,
and thank you for having me. Ienjoyed myself.
(35:15):
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review
wherever it is. You listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica, see
you next Monday. You.
Welcome back to your child is normal. I'm your host,
(00:02):
Dr Jessica Hochman, and todayI'm joined by Dr Larry Waldman,
a psychologist with a doctoratein clinical psychology, and he
has decades of experiencehelping families better
understand and respond to theirchildren's behavior. He's the
author of several parentingbooks, including who's raising
whom a personal favorite. Inthis episode we explore how
simple, consistent parentingstrategies rooted in behavioral
(00:24):
psychology can help shape yourchild's behavior over time.
Behavioral psychology focuses onhow behavior is learned through
reinforcement, and how applyingthese simple principles can help
parents handle everydaychallenges with greater
confidence. And let's be honest,who out there wouldn't like to
parent with greater confidence?
And before we get started withtoday's episode, if you're
finding your child is normal,helpful, please take a moment
and leave a five star review. Ithelps other parents find the
(00:47):
show, and it also reminds themyour child is normal. Dr, Larry
Waldman, thank you so much fortaking the time to be here
today. I'm so looking forward tohearing your insights.
Thank you. I appreciate theopportunity.
So you've written seven books,three books which apply to
parenting directly, telleverybody about your career,
(01:09):
what you do now, and how youwere so inspired to write all of
these books,I knew I wanted to help people,
and the field of psychologycertainly intrigued me, so I got
my masters in educationalpsychology at University of
Wisconsin, Milwaukee, and whenwe came out to Arizona in 1973 I
(01:34):
started out as a schoolpsychologist with Scottsdale
schools, while at the same time,I worked on my doctorate at
Arizona State. I met my mentor,Dr Carl ream. He was the
Clinical Director of the specialdevelopment clinic at Milwaukee
(01:58):
Children's Hospital and I sawfirsthand the power of
behavioral psychology appliedappropriately, because some of
those kids we turned completelyaround. Now, back in those days,
this is now early 70s, a lot ofthose kids were kept at home.
(02:23):
The school could keep a disabledchild out of school and say,
Look, you're too much of aproblem. We can't deal with you.
It wasn't until 1974 that thisthat the federal special
education law was passed whereschools were now required to
provide an adequate education toevery child regard, regardless
(02:49):
of disability, but some of thosekids actually returned to school
even before that law was passed,Because of the way we managed
and shaped their behavior nowand then I saw, of course, when
I got into private practice,that these these techniques, are
very applicable to normalfamilies, if you will, because I
(03:14):
was meeting so many parents whoWere getting driven crazy by
their kids, and so I spent lotsof time basically teaching
parents to become behaviortherapists, if you will. That's
wonderful. What I'm sointerested in is you have this
(03:38):
deep foundation of behavioralpsychology. And I think what's
so fascinating to me is you canapply these principles to help
parents with the mostchallenging moments that arise
with parenting. So I find thispersonally extra interesting,
because not only am I a parentof three kids, but also I was a
psycho biology major in collegewhere we talked a lot about this
(03:59):
applying behavioral psychology,but to animals and not really so
much to children. So as I readyour books, it's so interesting
that we can apply those sameprinciples to parenting our kids
when it comes to rewards andconsequences. So what I would
love to do with you is askingsome specific examples as it
relates to common struggles thatparents have with their kids,
(04:22):
and maybe it will help parentsthe next time they come across a
challenge with their kids. Sure,the essence of behavioral
psychology is essentially thathow we respond to consequences
of our behavior shape us, and sotherefore good parenting in a
(04:44):
sentence comes down to applyingappropriate consequences to
their children's behavior, andthat's of course, over.
Oversimplifying it. And as Ilike to say, you know,
understanding behavioralpsychology is very simple,
(05:07):
applying it is very difficult.
So with with behavioralpsychology it, you know, the
question becomes, and thequestion that parents should ask
themselves is, what is he or shelearning? What? What is the
(05:29):
lesson being learned here?
That's what it comes down to.
Basically, Iwant to make sure people
understand what we're what we'retalking about when you talk
about behavioral psychology andhow it's simple to understand.
Can you explain it?
Well, the focus is on what theperson is doing. And of course,
(05:53):
in the case of parenting, youknow, is what is the child's
behavior. And therefore, asparents, you know, we want to
raise independent andresponsible young people. That
was in my head when I became aparent. I have two grown sons
(06:14):
now, so I'm very proud of themand so on. Plus, they're not
asking me for any money here.
So, job well done. Yeah,exactly. But you as I'm
parenting, you know, I'm notdoing it, just by the seat of my
pants, if you will. Andunfortunately, most parents
don't have a plan. That doesn'twork. It's confusing. You
(06:41):
mentioned earlier thatbehavioral psychology is
applied, let's say, even toanimals. Well, yes, you know. So
using that, if you get a puppy,for instance, and you want to
potty train that puppy, okay,you know. And, and so if the
pop, if the puppy you know hasan accident, you know, you might
(07:04):
say no, and so forth. And thenyou take the puppy out, and then
the puppy you know goes, youknow, on the lawn where you want
it to go. So if you on aconsistent basis, you reward the
puppy, you know, for goingoutside. The puppy very quickly
comes to learn, oh, when I gopee, pee outside, I, you know, I
(07:28):
get petted and cared for andtreated, etc. Okay, well, it's
kind of how it works with kidsas well. The problem is, is we
is many parents are veryinconsistent in in how they deal
with them. So also the truth ofthe matter is, is the parents
(07:51):
are actually creating a biggerproblem for themselves, and the
way they do that is that they'reactually giving the child, like
the puppy, a little treat at thewrong time. What's the most
valuable thing we as parents canprovide our children, especially
(08:16):
our young children,attention, exactly, okay. You
read the book. Attention ourtime now, remember, kids are
born naked and naive, okay? Theydon't know what's good or bad,
right or wrong. They havenothing to compare it to. They
(08:38):
live within the confines oftheir home, and what they see
is, as far as they're concerned,the reality their reality. But
like any child, of course, theywant parental attention. They
crave it well, and as you know,if you fail to give adequate
(09:00):
attention, even to a newborn,that can create serious medical
problems. So attention iscritical. Kids need it, want it
and deserve it,and they'll do anything for it.
They'll act in any way to get itexactly, of course, they want
it. So you see, then it's up tous to determine when they get
(09:25):
this valuable commodity.
It's, you know, cognitively, Iknow that attention is so
important for kids, but I haveto say, in real life, as a
working mom with a workingspouse and three young kids,
it's hard to give the attentionthat I wish I could to each of
my children, just just as acommentary. I think for parents
(09:48):
to know you just want to do thebest that you can. I don't
believe there's such a thing asa perfect parent, but I think
the idea is you just want to doyour best and give quality
attention as best that you can.
Yeah.
Absolutely look. I mean, you'vegot to put food on the table and
so on. As you pointed out, kidswill do what they can to get
(10:11):
attention, and they don't knowthe difference truly, between
what we call good attention andbad attention. In fact,
sometimes bad attention is moreinteresting than getting good
attention,if you will. I'm just thinking
of my own children last night,my my son takes great pleasure
in agonizing his his sisters. Heloves the attention he gets from
(10:34):
bothering them.
This has been researched.
Studies have been done wherethey've gone into homes and
observed and so forth, butbasically what we find is that
about 90% of the time whenchildren are misbehaving, they
(10:56):
get their parental attention.
Unfortunately, only about 10% ofthe time when the child is
behaving. Well, do they getparental recognition?
Okay? So from your perspective,it sounds like we parents are
not rewarding positive behaviorsufficiently,
(11:17):
absolutely, and we're overreacting to the inappropriate
behavior.
So can you give an example ofwhat appropriate positive
attention would look like? Iknow you referenced the term the
sleeping dog phenomenon. Canyou? Can you, can you explain
what that is and go into it alittle bit, because this was eye
opening for me, because I thinkthat I am that parent sometimes
(11:39):
where I see my kids doing goodbehaviors, like, let's say they
sit down to do their homework.
And I think I, you know, afterreading your book, I realize I
don't give them enough praisefor those behaviors. Exactly.
That's what I call it, thesleeping dog philosophy. You
know, when the dog is sleeping,you leave it alone, right? Well,
you know, if you walk by yourchild's room and there he or she
(12:01):
is sitting there studying. Take10 seconds, walk in there, put
your hand on their back and go,you know, Millie or Susie. And
so, you know, it really, itreally is so nice to see you
working so hard and so forth.
You know, you're, you're goingto be really, really smart, you
know, and walk outand what child, what child won't
(12:23):
love hearing praise from theirparents. I'm 44, years old. I
still love hearing praise frommy parents. Exactly.
That's true.
I know that intuitively it makessense. We're all we all know
this. But just as a reminderthat kids love hearing praise.
So if you're seeing a behaviorthat you want to see more of,
(12:43):
let them know, absolutely, andyou'll see more of it if you let
them know, right? Sure. I mean,you know, the brother and the
sister are playing a gametogether, and there's no
shouting, there's no yelling.
You walk over and say, Hey guys,I really appreciate the way you
can play so so quietly andcooperatively. There's no
(13:07):
yelling, and you're being niceto each other, you know, when
you're finished with the game, Ihave some brownies we can make
for dessert. Yeah. And so thereit is. You know, instead of
waiting and hoping, oh, I hopeyou keep, they keep playing
nicely together, because as soonas that starts there, as soon as
(13:30):
the mom, then in you come, okay,well, duh, look what's happened.
And of course, the you know, thebrother, you know, was going,
you know, I teased my sister alittle bit she saw and here
comes mom. Look at this, youknow, I got my sister going, I
(13:52):
got my mom going,right? And then, as the
principal of behavioralpsychology says, if they get
good, fun attention for theirbehaviors, whatever it may be,
they're going to do more of it.
Exactly. They're going to followthe trail, okay, just like the
puppy learns, you know, to gooutside, they're going to do
(14:14):
more of that. Because that'swhen, you know, that's, that's
when they get, you know, gettheir rewards and so on.
Now, the other important keypoint that you mentioned when it
comes to rewarding positivebehavior is doing it immediately
that you don't want to wait toolong before you provide that
reward.
Well, yes, and there, and thereare some elements of that, okay,
(14:39):
delayed reinforcement is justabout useless to tell a, you
know, a six year old, gee, youknow you're being a good boy.
You know, at four o'clock when Ifinish work, and this is now
nine in the morning, at fouro'clock when we finish. Which
(15:00):
will go to the park. Well, youknow, that's That's like telling
adults save money for a rainyday. And the other important
piece in all the examples that Ihave previously given here, I've
been very specific aboutpointing out the behavior. I'm
(15:21):
not saying, Good job. Way to go.
I'm proud of you. No, I'm beingvery specific, pointing out the
very particular behavior that Iam reinforcing the look, oh,
Billy and Susie, you're playingso cooperatively. You're taking
turns. There's no yelling, sosee now what the children have
(15:42):
learned, okay, is that, Oh,these are the behaviors I need
to exhibit to get the attentionthat I crave.
I also think about my dog. Iknow dogs are different than
humans, but if my dog does abehavior for me, like she sits
(16:03):
when I ask her to, I have toimmediately praise her. If I
wait five minutes later, she'sgoing to have no idea what I
praised her for. She's not goingto connect that she sat and I
was happy about that. So youhave to think about that
similarly with kids. Kids have afleeting memory. You have to
reward them in real time, right?
If you wait 30 seconds with yourdog, it's gone. No, it has to
(16:24):
right then. And you know, let's,let's say you know you are
planning to go to the park.
Well, what better time to do it,immediately after they've done
some really nice behavior. Okay,they don't know you are planning
to go or do this or that, butnow we connect the two. Oh, and
then on the way to Oh, I'm gonnahave so much fun at the park.
(16:45):
Isn't it nice that you did suchand such and so and so we can
now go to the park.
Yes, when kids have goodbehavior, you want to send the
message that with that goodbehavior will come more fun
experiences, happier parents, agood day all around
I used to say in workshops thatmy kids, my two sons,
(17:05):
manipulated me all during theirchildhood. They behaved well,
and then I reinforced them. Ithink this is a really good
point to bring up, because toomuch of our time can can feel
like we are disciplining ourkids chastising them, telling
them that what they're doing iswrong or inappropriate, or
correcting their behavior, andI'd much rather spend the time
(17:27):
rewarding them. That just feelsbetter. So I think that's such
an important reminder.
And especially as they growolder, they do more and more of
that. Yes, andif the ultimate I always think
about the ultimate goal withparenting, and that is, I want
to have a great relationshipwith my relationship with my
kids. I want to be I want themto call me when they're adults.
And I think if you have goodexperiences with them, that's
(17:48):
much more likely to happen,absolutely. Yeah. Now, now, what
about negative consequences? Sounfortunately, as we all know,
if you're anyone who spends timewith kids. Kids like to do
negative things for behavior. Soyou know, whether it's whining
or yelling or misbehaving in oneway or another, it's what kids
(18:09):
do. So how? And this can cause alot of stress for parents,
because I think a lot of usdon't know how to react. Our
instincts are often to to reactalong with them. So as a
behavioral psychology, what doyou what's your advice for us,
parents?
Okay, when it comes to thenegative piece, again, I can't
(18:31):
over emphasize the positivepiece, but you know, we're not,
you know we're not living inEden here, you know, there's,
there's, there's always going tobe some gray clouds. And so
we're all human. After all,we're not, unfortunately, we're
not perfect.
(18:52):
All right, sopart of of this approach here is
that the parent tests become anobjective observer of their
children's behavior. They haveto do that because they have to
recognize when it's good, andthen they have to recognize when
it's not. Now when it's not, youhave another question to ask
(19:14):
yourself, and that is, is itdangerous? Harmful or
destructive, if the kids playingwith fire or taking a running
around with a hammer or a knifeor something, or abusing their
sibling or kicking the wall,okay, there needs probably to be
(19:38):
some intervention there. Hereagain, that's been pretty well
researched, and what we find isvery, very little of
inappropriate behavior meetsthat first category, dangerous,
harmful. Destructive. Most ofthe time it's whining,
(20:01):
complaining, procrastinating,you know, things of that nature.
So you're saying that most, ifmost of the time, these
behaviors are not destructive.
We don't have to intervene, youknow, we don't have to call 911,
sound, the fire alarms. They'rejust irritating behaviors, is
that what you're saying,or they procrastinate.
(20:27):
My kids learned early on that,you know, we there was a set
time to be like, be dressed andso forth, and if they were
dressed and so forth, you know,we might even have time to watch
a little TV or something beforethe bus came or whatever. In
(20:49):
fact, my younger son learned acouple of times that, you know,
if he wasn't dressed in timewhen I had to go and I had a
clock, that means they could setthe time, so they knew exactly
when they needed to be dressed.
I walked in his room. Great, youknow, he hadn't, didn't he
happened. Didn't have a shirton, didn't have his shoes or
socks. Grabbed the shirt,grabbed took them by the hand,
(21:10):
placed them in the car andpicked up the other other kids.
In fact, I loved it. Soon as alittle girl walked, you know,
came into the car, she looked atChad and said, Chad, why are you
naked? And he was all because hedidn't have a shirt on you. And
then I dropped him off atschool, and then other people
were looking at him like, whyaren't you dressed? And so
(21:32):
forth. See, that's a lovelylogical consequence to that
procrastinating behavior. Did heget any of my attention? No,
what did he get? Discomfort,social discomfort by not being
dressed well, that's life. Andsee, remember, I'm trying to
(21:54):
raise independent andresponsible young people, and
life works that way. You know,when you're not responsible,
when you're not independent,life gives you ashes. You know,
you get you get fired, or youget disciplined and so forth.
You get criticized. Well, that'swhat happens. I like hearing
(22:18):
this example from you as aparent, because I like in the
beginning, you fast forward andlet us know that your kids are
independent. They're they're notasking you for money. They have
their own families. So it'sgreat to hear that what you did
and how your techniques forparenting were fruitful. Kudos
to you.
(22:40):
Well, thank you. Yeah.
Now I have a question for you.
No relating to these nondangerous behaviors. A big
example, I hear parents all thetime. They bring their kids in
for checkups, and they say, canyou just check my my kids
hearing? They never listen tome. I ask them things all the
time, and I and I can't help butwonder maybe their hearing isn't
(23:01):
right, because I'll ask them to,you know, pick up their clothes,
567, times, and they ignore me.
And so vast, vast majority ofthe time their hearing is is, in
fact, perfect hearing. Andparents are bewildered. They
say, I swear, I ask themquestions and I ask them with a
serious tone, and they justignore me. So how can parents
(23:22):
use behavioral psychology toreinforce behaviors like
listening?
All right, the kids wereresponsible for keeping the room
clean, okay? And they knew when,when they left for school their
room was clean or and if thingsare off the floor. Now, as I
(23:45):
would walk, walk back to my roomand so forth, and I'd look in
and there's, there's a shirt ormaybe a pair of shoes lying out,
what I simply did is pick themup and hid them well. If they're
going to leave them out, youknow, and not put them away. The
natural consequence of thatbehavior is you don't get to
(24:06):
wear them for a while. And theycame back from school and said,
Well, I want Where's, where's mygood shoes? I said, You mean the
ones you left out. I don't knowwhere they are for now, maybe
with you, learn to put them backup, you know. Okay, nice, little
logical con, not a big yellscreen, so forth. If you leave
(24:26):
the MC, that's life.
So the idea is a logicalconsequence. So so to draw upon
your example, if they're notlistening to you and you say,
Billy, can you please clean yourroom? Can you please clean your
room? Can you please clean yourroom? The toys and the clothes
that they left out. If youinstead clean them up when they
go, when they next go lookingfor their toys and their
(24:47):
clothes, you can say, well,they're not here. You didn't
listen to me when I asked you toclean them up, so my feeling was
they weren't that important toyou, so I put them away, and
then they're not there for themwhen they want them. Is that the
idea?
Yeah, exactly. You know. Thereis a logical consequence for it.
Here's the other thing youtalked about, classic example
(25:10):
wherefive year old, six year old,
Timmy comes into the kitchen.
Okay, it's 5 (25:17):
15pm mom's in the kitchen busy making dinner. She
just got home. She's trying toget dinner for the family, and
so, okay, he comes in and hesays to Mom, Mom, I'm hungry. I
want a cookie. Okay, what doesmom say? How
(25:38):
about instead of a cookie? Westart with some good growing
foods. I'll cut you up somestrawberries. Once you eat some
good growing foods, then we canhave a cookie afterwards.
Okay, something to that effect,or, you know, Timmy, I'm making
dinner. We're going to eat inabout 1520 minutes. You know, if
you eat a good dinner, we'llhave a cookie for dessert. So,
(25:59):
okay, so what does Timmy do orsay,
Mommy, I promise, if I have mycookie now, I'll still have a
good dinner,right? He comes back. Look, you
know, I want a cookie now.
Sorry. Okay, and now, what doesmommy do? I'm
really sorry, but I'm makingdinner. I'm working hard on
dinner, so we're gonna have thecookie after dinner,
(26:21):
she already made a very, youknow, strong argument before a
very positive one, and and and atrue one, all right, but, but he
asked. He asked again. And whatdoes she do? She restates, okay,
all right. And this goes on acouple more times, okay. Now her
restatements get shorter andshorter, but she's getting
(26:44):
angrier and angrier because shecan't finish dinner. Okay, so
somewhere around the fourth orfifth request, finally, mom's
had it and says, All right,here, take your darn cookie and
get out of the kitchen. Okay?
And the kid takes his cookie andwalks up. Now, remember, as I
said at the start of thispresentation, the question is,
(27:05):
what is the kid learning?
Kids Learning that the more theynag their parents and the more
they resist their request,they're going to get what they
want eventually, which isn'tgood. Hello. And then, and then
the mother thinks, Oh, my God,his mate, his hearing is bad, or
He's so stubborn, he takes afterhis uncle, Willie. You
(27:29):
know, it's so important forparents to have boundaries.
Someone once explained it to methat we should think of
ourselves as a wall that kidswant to push on the wall, push
on the wall, push on the wall,but we know a wall is very
unlikely to move despite beingpushed on. And if you, if you
teach the kid that you're notgoing to move, that you hold
that boundary, they're going tostop pushing, and they're going
to comply. But if you keep them,if you, if you send the message
(27:51):
that if they keep pushing, theykeep pushing, they keep pushing,
and eventually you cave. You'resending them that message that
that that's the behavior thatthey should be doing if they
want to get what theywant, absolutely. This is called
intermittent reinforcement. Thebest, my
favorite example of intermittentreinforcement is like slot
machines. You put the money in,you put the money and you put
(28:13):
the money in, it doesn't come,but eventually it comes, and you
might strike big,exactly. And that's behavioral
psychology right there. And theymake billions on on that, on
that concept. Okay, now in my ifI were that mother and that, and
that, and Tim, my kid came in,Daddy, I want a cookie. I'll
see. You know, no, you know,we're Dinner will be served in
(28:36):
about 20 minutes. The cookiecould interfere with your
dinner. If you eat a nicedinner, we'll be sure to have a
cookie. But daddy, and then he'sgone. As far as I'm concerned,
he's gone. I'm back to cooking.
You can whine all you want. I'mnot responding.
(28:58):
And the hope is that eventuallythat whining will extinguish,
right? That's the hope,exactly I'm done. He's heard my
message. I'm not going to repeatmyself like an idiot. And then
he's noticed now the kids incontrol, he's got you repeating
yourself half a dozen times, andfinally gets the darn cookie.
(29:19):
Well, hey, if I was a kid, well,you know, that's a lot of power
and control, to be honest withyou, I was a terrible child
because my mother was 20 yearsold. Didn't know up from down
and so forth. And, you know,bright kids learn this
manipulation thing veryearly. I mean, I definitely hear
(29:42):
what you're saying, andcognitively, this all makes
sense, but it is hard to hearyour kids crying. Sometimes it's
hard to stick to thoseboundaries. You ask your kid,
can we make a compromise? Howabout if I give you a date
that's sweet and it's healthy.
How about if we do something inbetween? Mean, I do feel like,
realistically, sometimes it ishard for parents to hear their
(30:04):
kids crying. And I wish I couldand apply the concepts of
behavioral psychology in allinstances, but it's tricky.
Okay. I mean,it is. But, you know, every
parent learns to decipher thekids cry they you can tell when
they're really hurt and so on.
And when they're and whenthey're doing it for effect,
(30:25):
yes, that's a good point tobring up, yeah,
and and when they're doing itfor effect, I want nothing to do
with that, because whining andcomplaining, you know, and fake
crying is not one of those youknow life skills, you know that
that we want to have our kidscarry into adulthood?
(30:46):
Yes, absolutely, no. That's agreat point. I'm always thinking
about what are some logicalconsequences for unwanted
behaviors, and sometimes I worrythat the natural consequences
are doing a disservice to bothof us, and I'll give you
example. So last night atdinner, for example, after
dinner, there are a lot ofdishes out, the food was out.
(31:08):
And I asked my kids, can youhelp me put dinner away? And
they said, Oh, we'll get to itlater. And I'm someone I don't
like leaving food out. I like todo it right away. And I said, if
you guys don't help me, I'm notgoing to have time to put you to
bed later and tuck you in. Andso I put the food away, and they
didn't get up and help me. Andthen when it came time for
bedtime and they asked for atuck in, I didn't have time for
(31:30):
it. But then in my heart, I feltbad, because I do enjoy those
tuck ins. So you know, sometimesI feel like logical
consequences. Can not feelperfect, if that makes sense.
Well, remember, also, you'retalking about what we refer to
as contingencies and and whatyou just said is, what a lot of
parents do is they reverse it.
You know, the true contingencyis if A, then B. Okay, what
(31:53):
you're doing is if, if not a,then not be so you know one
option you could have tried, atleast, you know, is that is, say
you dear, if you don't dear, ifyou turn off the TV now, I'll
have time to read you a story.
(32:16):
Or, you know when, you knowwhen, when you help me clear the
dishes here, you know they'llget that'll give me enough time
to tuck you into bed. So it's ifA then B, as opposed to the
negative, and that and that,that that could encourage them
to do, to do that. And if theydo, then you can reinforce, you
(32:40):
know, their their compliance. Soyeah, stated, you try to state
these in the positive direction,not not the negative one, and
it'll, you'll probably, you'llprobably have more success with
that.
So just thinking, as we concludethis conversation, if you could
(33:01):
think of one key takeaway thatyou'd like parents to remember
about applying behavioralpsychology to their parenting
approach, what would itbe? Well, I think you can tell
it, it's catch them when they'regood,
catch them when they're good,because it's true, it's much
more fun to reward kids fordoing good things than to get
into a battle and be upset withthem when
(33:23):
they're not doing good things.
Well, if you're getting intobattles, shame on you, because
they're in control, and it's notjust a matter of control, but
you're teaching them skills thatare not going to serve them well
as they get older. Ithink what's so hard about
parenting is I can read thebooks and I can talk rationally
with friends, with adults, butsometimes in the moment, it is
(33:47):
just so hard. Another lastquestion. This is a real last
question. I love the title,who's raising, whom? Who came up
with it? How'd you come up withthat? Lot of my titles that from
my books come from patients, andI had a very frustrated mother
who did just say that, who'sraised, but she said, who's
raising who? And then, I mean, Ithought, Oh, that's perfect, by
(34:07):
the way, I have two other booksthat apply to children. Here's
this one. Of course this, thisis coping with your adolescent.
So if you haven't, if youhaven't, haven't read this one,
you're going to certainly needthis one, as I like to say,
who's raising? Who open withyour adolescent? Yeah.
(34:29):
And this one came out duringCOVID. It's entitled. Love your
child more than you hate yourex. Whatever divorced parent
needs, needs to know as well,fantastic. The books are
available on my website, whichis top Phoenix psychologist.com
or, of course, you can get itthrough Amazon as well.
(34:53):
Well, I'm very proud of you. I'mvery proud of the wonderful work
that you've done. You're helpingso many families navigate
through. What's the most joyousexperience in life I find
raising children, but also themost difficult. So thank you so
much. All of this insight reallyhelps, and I appreciate your
time, and thank you for beinghere,
and thank you for having me. Ienjoyed myself.
(35:15):
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review
wherever it is. You listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica, see
you next Monday. You.
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