Episode 190 with neonatologist, author and podcast host, Dr. Joanna Parga-Belinkie who talks about her new book, We talk about the challenges of parenting, particularly in the newborn phase. She emphasizes the importance of bonding with babies, the role of community support, and the impact of modern technology on parenting. Dr Joanna offers practical advice for navigating the early days of parenthood. The discussion highlights that while parenting can be overwhelming, focusing on relationships and being present can lead to fulfilling experiences.
Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Hi everybody. Thank you so much for being here and
tuning back into your child asnormal. I'm your host and
pediatrician, Dr Jessica Hochmanon today's episode, I'm joined
by a neonatologist and authorand fellow pediatric podcaster,
Dr Joanna pargabellinky, andshe's here to talk about her new
book, The baby bonding book.
She's also the co host of theAAP pediatrics on call podcast.
In this episode, we talk aboutwhat truly supports a baby's
(00:21):
development, and that is strong,nurturing relationships with
their caregivers. We talk abouthow it's normal for bonding to
not happen right away, and whyfancy baby gear isn't nearly as
important as being present. Ifyou're enjoying this podcast,
please share it with a friendand leave a five star review.
Reviews help others find theshow, and it reminds them your
child is normal.
(00:42):
Dr, Joanna, Parga belenky, thankyou so much for joining me
today. I'm so excited to sharewith my audience all of the
wisdom that you shared in yournew book that just came out last
month, the baby bonding book. Sothank you for being here. Thank
you so much for having me. Sotell everybody about yourself.
You're a doctor, you're apodcaster, you're a mother,
share a little bit about who youare. I know you and I share a
(01:04):
lot of things in common. So I'ma neonatologist or a Baby
doctor. I live in Philadelphia.
I am a mother as well. I havethree children. They're ages
seven, five and one, so justcoming out of the baby phase
myself, but my one year old istotally a full blown toddler
right now. So that is great. AndI also work a lot with the
American Academy of Pediatrics.
(01:27):
I'm a spokesperson for them, andI do their weekly podcast called
pediatrics on call. So you weara lot of hats, a lot of hats,
which I feel like a lot ofpediatrician mothers do, and
then within all of that, youstill found time to write a book
that's been impressive. Thankyou. The book was a labor of
love, unintended because it'sabout babies, but it was really
(01:52):
a response to when I was atwork, I get so many questions
about, How do I make sure thatmy baby's brain is developing.
Well, how do I make sure I'mstimulating enough? What are the
things that I should be doing?
And the easy answer to thatquestion is, have a good
relationship with them, safe,stable, nurturing relationships
are what build baby's brains.
(02:15):
And so I really wanted to getparents back to that, to them
realizing that they're enoughand for them to really focus on
relationship building with theirnewborn, which can be hard
because parenting a newborn is achallenging phase of parenting.
So I was really hoping to helpparents connect with their
babies and find the joy inbuilding that relationship. Do
(02:36):
you feel like those questionsare happening more and more
because of easy access to socialmedia. Or do you think those
questions that parents haveafter having babies is a normal
process? It's definitely normalto have questions when you have
a baby, babies don't communicatein the same way that we do, and
so figuring out how your baby'strying to communicate with you
is a part of what makesparenting a newborn challenging,
(02:59):
and they need 24/7 care. I mean,being tired is a fixture of
parenting a newborn, I think.
But on top of that,modern parenting has allowed for
us to have information at ourfingertips. There's so much
knowledge that you can get frombeing on the internet, and not
all of it's good information,and so I do think there's this
(03:19):
extra stress on parents today tofeel like they have to know
everything about the care oftheir baby, and I think that
takes away from the experientiallearning that is so much a part
of relationship building with ababy. And again, I want parents
to get back to the joy that isgetting to know someone and not
knowing all the answers, whichis stressful Yes, but also can
(03:42):
be exciting. And I think part ofthe reason why the questions
feel more and more is becausethere's less of the village,
quote, unquote, to rely on. AndI think because the social media
world makes everything look soperfect, that makes things
harder for moms, because we allknow that nothing's perfect.
Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I'mactually really happy you
(04:03):
brought up the village, the ideaof community, because a lot of
times when parents are like,Okay, what do I need for my
baby? You need to sit down andthink about who are the people
that support you, who are thepeople that are going to step up
parenting a newborn. It can't bean individual pursuit. It's
something that you needcommunity for. It's something
that you need other people for.
(04:25):
So who are the other people? Thegrandparents, the best friends,
the neighbors, the pediatrician,but you need other people. And
it can't just be your phone,because you need physical
support for your baby's braingrowth and development and for
you to take a time out too,especially if you're the mom or
the primary parent for thatinfant, right? And so that
concept of a village and acommunity is just so important.
(04:47):
I feel maybe I'm not entirelycorrect on this, but I feel like
more and more families don'thave that village. I think it's
just hard. Maybe because ofjobs, you live far from your
family, maybe your spouse isfrom a different state than.
You. And a lot of people areaway from their biologic
village, which I think is okay,I think you can substitute that
with other relationships, but Ijust feel like today it's harder
(05:10):
and harder to make that happen.
I think that contributes a lotto the stress of a new parent.
And the newborn period itself isa kind of isolating period,
right? And parents do yourightly worry about things like
infection in those first fewmonths. And so this is an
isolating time in general. And Iagree we're in this virtual
world now where you might noteven have a job, where you need
to go into the office. And so Ithink there has to be an
(05:32):
intentional effort to seek outcommunity. But remember, what
the newborn needs for theirbrain growth and development is
a safe, stable, nurturingrelationship. They need an
attentive, loving caregiver, andit can just be one. It can Yes,
but for that caregiver, it can'tjust be you. For myself, if I
have a question about how to fixsomething or how to solve a
(05:53):
problem, it's so easy to go ontoyour phone and say, How do I
treat a diaper rash? And maybethere'd be a lot of value in
asking for the wisdom from yourmother, your grandmother, from
somebody else in your familywho's been through it, or a
friend who's been through it.
But I do think there's sometrickiness, love or hate it with
the digital world and the easeof the digital world well, and
it's like, if you YouTube thediaper rash, let's take that as
(06:15):
an example. It's not a back andforth you're gonna have with the
YouTube video about the diaperrash. And so you could do
everything the video saysperfectly. And the diaper rashes
are so ubiquitous. I mean, theyhappen, they're gonna happen,
that it might not be the thingthat helps with your diaper
rash. And so having someone totalk to about it, like find a
pediatrician you really trust.
And again, it's the humanconnection that builds a baby's
(06:38):
brain. So in the first year oflife, the baby's brain is
growing tremendously. It'screating all of these new
neuronal networks. It's probablythe biggest time of brain growth
in your entire life as a humanbeing. And to make sure that
your baby's making all theseconnections and feeling like
they can trust the world aroundthem and that they have someone
(07:02):
to learn from, is thatrelationship with you they're
always learning from theirloving, trusting caregivers. And
so this gets to do how importantthat your attentiveness and your
caring for that baby really is,because then, when they have a
problem and they're calling out,they're crying, right? Because
that's a big way that babiescommunicate, and you're
responding to it. You'reteaching them how they should be
(07:25):
interacting with the world, andyou're also showing them, hey,
there's somebody really caresabout me that's trying to
comfort me, and that is going tolay the foundation of how their
brain responds to theenvironment in the world. And so
many things that you're settingup in that early period of time
just by interacting with babyand responding to them.
(07:47):
As a pediatrician, I find itincredibly fascinating to look
at what newborns are capable ofdoing, because all of their
normal newborn reflexes promotebonding with a caregiver. So for
example, they have somethingcalled the Palmer reflex. If you
push in the center of theirhand, they grasp your hand,
which How do you not fall inlove with your baby if they hold
your hand from the get go? Ialso think it's interesting that
(08:09):
if you look at the vision of ababy, they can only see about 12
inches away, which is exactlythe distance from your face to
how far away they would be ifyou're holding them in your
arms, and even with feeding, ifyou tickle them on the cheek,
they'll immediately respond bywanting to root to feed. And
feeding a baby promotes bonding.
So it makes sense biologicallythat the things that they are
(08:30):
born innately doing promotebonding with a caregiver. And
it's incredible. It's about sixweeks that they start making out
faces too, and that's when theysmile at you, and that's when
parents, I think, get more intobonding with baby, because so
they're like, Oh, wow. Like, nowthey really see me, but that
brain is laying down itsfoundations, and they are
(08:50):
primed. They are primed forrelationships and for building a
relationship, because, again,that is supporting their
neurodevelopment. And it's true,it's so fascinating to see that
the subsequent capabilities thatthey have as they get older are
smiling, making better eyecontact. You know, around two
months they're cooing, where youlook at them and you say
(09:12):
something, and then they respondback to you. So I agree, they
are really primed and set up toconnect with you, which makes it
really joyful. I say thisbecause a lot of parents have a
hard time in those first fewweeks, but very quickly they are
giving back to you. They'resmiling at you. They're cooing
with you. Gets more fun as timegoes on, and I it is really hard
in those first few weeks,because it's demanding. Not only
(09:34):
do they need you for theirsurvival and to feed them and to
change them, but they are alsoneeding you to figure out how to
communicate with them. I have alot of parents that struggle
with that, because they don'tfeel like the baby's doing
anything. I've heard babiesdescribed as things like sacks
of potatoes or house plants, butreally the things you're doing
(09:55):
in that period are things thatare.
Are shaping how they're going torespond to the world. And one
thing you mentioned, I reallywanted to highlight for
families, because I have a lotof families be like, how do I
bond with this baby that doesn'tgive me much? And the cooing and
the cooing back that has a namethat's called serve and return.
(10:15):
So the baby is serving up, I'mgoing to vocalize, and then the
parent vocalizes back. You'restarting a conversation with
them, and they maybe have anidea of what they're trying to
communicate, but you don't, butyou're responding to them, and
it gets to the point where youdon't have to have all the
answers, like if you have acrying baby, which is a
stressful thing, especially Ifelt like, as the birth parent,
(10:37):
when my baby cried, it just gotmy hormones flaring and I was
upset, and sometimes I wouldn'tbe able to stop them from
crying. I had a colicky baby, myfirst baby, and so sometimes I
just would not be able to figureout why they were crying. But
the act of trying, andyou don't have to get it right,
but the act of trying is soimportant for making that baby
feel secure and for opening upthat baby to interacting with
(10:58):
the world, and they are watchingus, and they are appreciating
the things that we're doing,even though they can't say it,
because it's so important forthem to have that connection
with us. Yeah, I think we haveto believe it, because you're
right. We don't feel a lot inreturn. Yet, they're not talking
to us. They're not telling usthat they appreciate us, that
they love us. So you have tobelieve that it matters as much
(11:18):
as it does, because it doesmatter. Yeah, and it's
incredible when you allowyourself to take a step back
from our busy world and activelylisten to baby what you start to
learn about them. Andrelationships take time to
build. So again, if you don'tfeel that relationship day one
hour zero, that's okay, becauseyou're building a relationship
(11:38):
over time, and the newbornperiod is fleeting. Childhood is
also fleeting, and then you havethis adult.
So I always tell parents too,yes, this is really hard. Make
it feel really intense, but takea step back and think of this
adult that you're going to haverelationship and you want to
raise, and sometimes that helpsto be more reflective about the
(11:59):
future when the now is so hard.
Yeah, I'm reflecting back when Ihad my first born, like your
first child, she was reallycolicky. She cried all the time.
There was very little that Icould do, honestly, besides feed
her where she wouldn't becrying. And it was very
stressful. And I rememberfeeling like I really wanted to
bond with her, and I felt badthat it wasn't as innate, it
wasn't as easy as I wanted tobe. So do you have any advice
(12:21):
for moms in a similar situationwhere they have a newborn, they
have a desire to bond, but it'snot coming easy. What would your
advice be to that mom? Because Iknow this happens more than
people realize, yeah, becauselove at first sight is like
something that's in the movies.
It's not real life. In reallife, relationships are messy.
(12:41):
They're complicated, I wouldsay, reflect on some of the
adult relationships you have inyour life, and very often,
there's ups and downs to everyrelationship. And love is not
this steady thing. Love growsand expands and changes and
evolves as you do. And I thinkit's hard, because there's this
(13:02):
idea that you're going toimmediately bond with your
child, and maybe it's the casesometimes for some parents, but
I think for a lot of people,that bonding period does take a
while, also right after birth,it's a very emotional time. You
know, I work in a job where Isee deliveries not go the way
that people had really hoped andplanned for those deliveries to
go, and so that makes for a muchrougher start in starting a
(13:27):
relationship with somebody whenyou're meeting them and and we
have to talk about how there ispostpartum depression and
anxiety. There's sort of twinsof each other. The postpartum
blues is really common up to 80%of birth parents feel very
emotional around the time ofdelivery, and sometimes when I'm
caring for families, the motherswill just cry for little things.
(13:52):
And so we have to be aware thatour emotions are changing, our
hormones are changing, and ourmental health is different
around the time that we have ababy, and all of these things
can influence how you bond withthat baby. So I think it's just
really important again toremember that this is a lifelong
relationship that you'rebuilding, and if it's not love
(14:13):
at first sight, that is okay.
Also thinking for myself, I feltlonely. There were times when
I'd be home with the baby and Idreamt of catching up on Netflix
and having it really feel fun tojust be at home with a newborn,
but honestly, it was anythingbut fun. I can say this because
now she's 14, and she'swonderful, but at the time, it
was very stressful because shewas crying all the time, and in
(14:34):
those first couple of months, itwas hard to really feel bonded
in the way that I wanted. Sowhen I look back, I think what
really helped me, just this isjust for anyone listening who
might be in the same situation.
What really helped me, because Iam not introverted. I get a lot
of joy from being around otherpeople. I started to ask people
for help, and also when peopleoffered to help, I tried to say
(14:57):
yes, because I think.
Think for a lot of people, theinstinct is to not take the
help. But I would encouragepeople, if you're struggling, if
you're feeling lonely, if you'refeeling isolated, just try it.
Just see what happens. Just takethe help from the in laws, from
the cousins, from the friends,because it helps them also bond
with your baby, which is helpfulfor everybody. And help takes
(15:19):
different forms. You werementioning having a meal
prepared. They could be comingover too, not to hold the baby,
but to help you run a load oflaundry or take your package to
the post office, or to give you30 minutes to take a shower,
where you know someone'swatching the baby, and it
doesn't have to be you. So thehelp can look a variety of
(15:39):
different ways. And you broughtup the amazing point that you
might have all these goals foryour maternity leave, but that
baby needs you, they're going todemand much of your time, and so
not having those goals is alsohelpful. Because I remember with
my first I was like, I'm goingto do all these things. I'm
going to catch up on the allthese shows like you were
talking about. I'm going to readall these books. No, none of
(16:01):
that. I was surviving day to dayand taking care of my baby. And
this gets back to what I wassaying earlier. The time and
energy you're putting intocaring for that child is growing
their brain, and that's all youneed to do. And I think being
able to disconnect in that wayis really tough, especially
today, where we have so manydistractions, but knowing that
(16:21):
like the little things thatyou're doing for baby every day
are really making a differenceis so important. And if you're
someone that has a colicky baby,make sure someone else is
watching them for a while,because it's really hard to
listen to a baby cry for hourson end. I've been there too.
What helped me the most was whenmy mother in law, my mom, would
come and take the baby away fromme for a little bit of time,
(16:41):
even a half an hour, would makea huge difference. I totally
agree, and there's a saying thatI like that disappointment comes
when expectations are not met.
So I think if you can keep yourexpectations a little bit on the
lower side, especially in thosefirst few months, just take it
day by day. Know it's going tobe hard, know that you're going
to feel sleep deprived. Knowthat it takes some time to feel
mentally the way you feltbefore, and just give yourself
(17:04):
grace. And I think that also canmake a difference. It's somber,
but there are such moments ofjoy peppered in there too, in
all that hardship. Because whenyou do hard things and you
dedicate yourself to them,there's joy in that too. There's
joy in watching the baby grow,in watching in that first smile,
(17:24):
in seeing how other peopleinteract with your baby and
being able to share that. Andeven something as simple as I
had two girls, and like puttinga particular bow on them for an
hour brought me joy. And socapture that joy, so that when
you're in those moments that arereally hard, you can also
reflect back on those littlethings. I do agree, enjoying the
(17:47):
good moments is so important, itmakes all the difference being
present as best you can. But Iguess I'm more reflecting on the
harder times, just for people toknow that if they are going
through it, it's normal, and itwill get better, yeah, such a
short time, really, but it's sointense. It's so intense when
(18:08):
you're in it,so it doesn't feel that way when
you're living it. I think it's agreat reminder for people that
bonding can take time.
Connection doesn't always happenimmediately, but it will happen.
The bonding will happen. So Ireally like there's a part in
your book where you talk abouttoday's focus on baby gear, all
the elaborate registries. Whatdo you think we're getting wrong
(18:30):
as a culture when it comes tonewborn care? Well, I think that
the fact that there are so manythings you could buy for a baby
just speaks to how challengingthis part of parenting can be
because people are trying tofind solutions for it, and so
they're trying to come up withthese things that'll make it
easier. It's not easy. It's justnot an easy part of parenting.
And truthfully, to care for anewborn baby, you only need a
(18:55):
handful of things, and otherwisethe baby really just needs a
loving, attentive caregiver.
They need someone to respond tothem, something to be there for
them. And so instead of focusingall this time on making this
list of things that you couldbuy, make a list of people that
are going to be there for you,that you know you can call upon
to help, and that want to comehelp and be a part of you and
your baby's life, and also makethat space for recognizing that
(19:16):
you are the most important thingfor your baby. I couldn't agree
more that I think today'sculture has made everything feel
way too fancy. There's way toomuch stuff to think about, and
it's easy to fall for that trap,because if you go to a baby
store and you see all this gearand diaper warmers and different
kinds of bottle warmers anddifferent options for blankets
(19:38):
and binkies, and literally, youcould mortgage your home and all
the money that you could spendon baby gear. And I always think
about this time when I wasgetting ready for my first born.
I had a conversation with myfriend's older brother, who was
about to have his fourth child,and I was telling him about my
registry, and I was asking forhis advice on what I would need
to get. And he said to me,honestly.
(20:00):
All you need is a blanket and adiaper, everything else you'll
figure out later. And I rememberthinking he was so calm and so
confident saying, that's all Iwould need. And I really
reflected on that, because afterI had my child, he was right.
The rest of the things that weneeded. As time went on, we
figured out you can feel likeyou need a lot more, when the
truth is, you really don't needhardly any of it. Yeah, and it
(20:23):
can over complicate that tryingto start a relationship, right?
Because you're like, Oh, well,if I don't have this thing, I'm
going to be in trouble likeyou're not. You could do it.
The ultimate goal is to have, asyou said, a safe, stable
relationship and watch them growup and be close and connected.
You don't need the Diaper Genieto make that happen. Yeah, so I
(20:43):
had my son, and eventuallyyou'll get peed on by a baby boy
if you have a baby boy in yourhouse and you're caring for
them, because that's just whathappens. And I remember someone
was like, Oh, do you have thePPTP? And I was like, what's
that? And it's like, thiscontraption you could buy that
you could throw over the penis,and it'll catch the urine when
you're changing. And I was like,Why?
(21:04):
Why do I need that? Like, Icould just put a wipe on it, or
I could just try to be reallyquick, like, aware that it could
happen, you know, because Ithink even if you had it PPTP,
you're still probably going toget peed on. And in a way,
making the mistakes is part ofthe process, right? And helpful,
because it helps you learn. Youknow that that dad who was
giving you wisdom about thefourth baby, he wasn't like
(21:27):
that, I'm sure with the firstyou know. So you really gain
knowledge as you care for moreand more babies. Yeah, you grow
into it. I definitely can saythat the size of my diaper bag
from my first child to my thirdit. It was unrecognizable. The
first diaper bag was loaded witheverything you could think of,
multiple outfit changes,blankets, teething toys and
(21:49):
whatnot. And I don't even knowif we had a diaper bag for my
third child in all Can I tellyou? Because my third is still a
year old, right? And so thefirst we always had the diaper I
was, like, decked out. We hadeverything we needed in it,
because, for whatever reason, Iwas like, Oh, if they have a
dirty onesie, it's at the end ofthe world. But like, with my
third we're often in the car,we're like, a half hour away
from the house, and my husbandwill turn to me and be like, Did
(22:13):
you pack the diaper bag? And Iwas like, what diaper bag?
There's no diaper bag.
Like, it's just funny that,like, we're often just
forgetting it. Now, one time, Iremember my husband walked out
the door with just a diaper inhis back pocket and our child,
and I said, that's all you need.
And he goes, we'll figure therest out. And he wasn't wrong.
He wasn't wrong. He took agamble. So okay, so bringing
back to I think what's soimportant here, and I think the
(22:34):
crux of your message is howbonding with our child really is
what matters at the end of theday, I'm thinking specifically
for the parents that might findparenting a little boring in
those early months. Do you haveany advice to help foster that
connection so that it reallyfeels good for the parent?
I think, I think really allowingyourself to focus on what you
(22:59):
want this relationship to looklike and know that it's a long
term endeavor and not somethingthat you need to figure out the
minute the baby is born. So giveyourself time and space and
recognize that while there is ajoy in raising a newborn, there
it is a challenging period ofparenting, and it is okay to
take a break. You also talkedabout in your book how routine
(23:22):
can matter, how simple dailyroutines, like feeding,
responding to cries, the mostbasic needs of the baby, if you
respond to those that can make adifference in helping
attachment. Can you explain thata little bit more and why that's
the case? Yeah, one of myfavorite things to do with my
babies was just the tasks Ineeded to do around the house,
and I would add flavor to it bynarrating it to the baby. So as
(23:46):
I was folding the laundry, Iwould kind of play with the
sheets, with them, but also talkto them about how I was doing
the laundry, what the laundrywas, you know, things that are
boring to me, and I think that'sso important for caregivers to
know, the things that are reallystimulating and brain boosting
for your baby to sometimes bereally boring for you, and
that's okay, because then Icould incorporate the baby in
(24:08):
the daily tasks I needed to doaround the house. I was a big
baby wearer, so I would talk tobaby a lot while they were
sleeping on me, just movingaround the house, like I
mentioned, the laundry, likeloading and unloading the
dishwasher too. We talked aboutserving return too, how you
could just respond to the thingsthe baby's trying to tell you,
and that's actually buildingtheir language and also their
(24:28):
connection with you as aneonatologist or a baby doctor,
that skin to skin, and actuallyholding particularly really
fresh newborn babies helps themkind of regulate their own
physiology. And that's what likereally newborn babies want, is
that closeness with theircaregiver, so the act of even
just holding them is enough tobe helping that brain circuitry
(24:52):
start to grow and fire. And Ithink it's also important to
realize that play is somethingthat is really a.
Essential in framing how thebaby develops and really play
can look like a lot of differentthings. Sometimes just talking
and interacting is play. Butalso, you don't need fancy toys
or fancy mats or play mats forthis. You just need to be
(25:14):
allowing yourself the time tohave joy with baby and show them
different things and talk tothem and be on the floor with
them and making eye contact withthem. For baby, that is very
stimulating, and that is play.
So again, find the joy in itwhere you can, because it is
such a demanding phase.
Now I have to ask you, you're aneonatologist, beyond the three
(25:36):
years of pediatric residency,you also did an additional few
years to learn more aboutbabies, correct? That's correct.
Yeah. Okay, so I just want toask you these questions, because
a lot of parents are worriedthat something is wrong with
their baby. Can you just telleverybody what are the real red
flags? What are the real worriesthat parents should be aware of
(25:57):
when they have a newborn? Soyour newborn should be
interested in eating, right?
They should be engaged inwanting to feed eight to 12
times in a day, which is roughlyevery three hours. But some
babies will wake up in an hourand a half and be hungry, or
they'll do wake up in three anda half hours. So no schedule
there, but thinking about theamount of feeds, they should be
pooping and peeing, so watchingtheir diapers is sometimes a
(26:20):
really important thing forcaring for baby. A lot of
parents intuitively know yousupport the baby's head, right?
Because they don't have, like,very strong necks, and so they
can't hold their heads up, butin thinking about that too, they
have really tiny airways, sosafe sleep, to me also making
sure there's nothing that canblock their nose or their mouth.
And they primarily like tobreathe out of their noses, so
(26:41):
you want to make sure that inthe times when it's 3am and
you're really tired, that youhave your baby in a safe spot,
so you don't need to be worriedabout how their airway is or how
they're breathing at night. Andalso, you're going to have that
safe sleep environment for them.
And then, you know, anytime ababy has a fever is a medical
emergency. It's always useful tohave a thermometer that can take
(27:05):
baby's temperature and make surethat you get baby help if they
have a fever, because all yourpediatrician is going to
recommend going to the emergencyroom for that. And I really have
a very close relationship withmy pediatrician. I think having
a close relationship with yourpediatrician is something that's
going to really help allay someof those worries for you. So
make sure it's someone that youcan ask questions of, that you
(27:26):
can have conversation with, andthat that is going to be open to
really talking with you aboutyour parenting, and making sure
that they're giving you thosepearls for what they're worried
about, too, when things happenand change with baby. And you
know, there's a lot of focustoo, on, you know, baby's weight
and length, and I think thosethings are important, how
they're growing, and the growthcurves. But growth curves are
(27:48):
not individualized. They'repopulation based. And so
essentially, that what the datapoint that you're born at tells
you more about how the placentagrew you than it does about the
growth potential of the baby.
And then afterwards, your babyneeds to find their curve, and
they're going to be babies atthe bottom of the curve, and
they're going to be babies atthe top of the curve, and you
don't know where your baby'sgoing to be. So that's why I
(28:09):
think it's important to havethose regular pediatrician
visits. You know, really, werecommend nine in that first
year of life, which is a lotwhen you think about it, right?
But up to nine visits, maybemore to help watch how the
baby's growing and developingwith you, but growth and those
parameters are just one part ofoverall health for your baby.
And I'm also just curious, as aneonatologist, do you find that
(28:30):
there are common concerns thatparents bring up with you that
you wish they knew not to worryabout? I think again, this gets
back to they're really justwanting their baby to have the
best start, right? Like theywant their baby to
be able to have the beststimulation to let their brain
(28:51):
grow. And I think we lose thefocus on how important
relationships are. So thisquestion, for me, it really gets
back to understanding that youare enough and that it's the
relationships that you have withyour baby that are going to be
the ones that are moststimulating for them as they get
bigger. Yes, and I do think thepower of the mind, I believe, is
so important. So for example, mysecond child, I was nervous
(29:15):
because my first child, by thetime she was two, I just loved
her so much, and I could notpicture loving another baby as
much as I loved my first born.
So I was feeling guilty already.
How could it be possible that Icould love him in the same plane
as my first kid? And I remembertalking to my dad, and I
expressed what I was worriedabout, and he said to me, Look,
(29:38):
I have three kids. I have youand your two sisters. Can you
tell that I love any of you anydifferently? And I said, No, I
can't. He goes, it'll justhappen. And I felt so reassured
by talking to him, expressing myworries and having him just give
me this common sense answer, Ithink, made a big difference.
And from that point forward, Ijust believed.
(30:00):
I'm going to love him as much asI love my daughter. And of
course, it became true. So Ithink a lot of the lessons that
I've learned parenting that havemade me feel better have been
reaching out to others who aremore experienced, and then
having the mindset that myworries aren't going to happen,
that things are going to workout in the best positive way.
And I do think if you canconvince yourself to have that
(30:22):
positive mindset, it will make adifference. I think you're
totally right. I remember I hadthe same guilt when I had a lot
of infertility issues gettingpregnant the first time. So I
just kind of assumed I wouldhave sort of the same issues
when I was trying to getpregnant with my second and then
that pregnancy happened rightaway, and I was overwhelmed with
guilt that, oh, my other baby isnot even two, and here I am
(30:45):
pregnant again. How is thisgoing to affect our connection?
But it's just again. It's thoserelationships. And I have to say
too, it's really incredible towatch the sibling relationship
develop between my two oldestand now my youngest in the mix.
I mean, love is so powerful.
Your heart can really grow insize, but the relationships are
all different, which is reallycool. It's so true. I think if,
(31:07):
if anyone's feeling that guilt,if you again, take take a step
back and you think about howmany people that you know are
really close with theirsiblings, or how many parents
feel joy when they watch theirsiblings play, it is true that
it really is the best, as theysay, the best things money can't
buy. I think that there'snothing truer than looking at a
really special relationship,like between parents and their
(31:28):
kids or between siblings. So Ithink what you're talking about
is really important. It's areally good reminder for people
to take to think about the bigpicture, about what really
matters. And thank you forputting it into words. Well,
thank you so much for having meon today. It's been so nice to
chat with you. Thank you forlistening, and I hope you
enjoyed this week's episode ofyour child is normal. Also, if
you could take a moment andleave a five star review,
(31:51):
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica. See
you next Monday. You.
Hi everybody. Thank you so much for being here and
tuning back into your child asnormal. I'm your host and
pediatrician, Dr Jessica Hochmanon today's episode, I'm joined
by a neonatologist and authorand fellow pediatric podcaster,
Dr Joanna pargabellinky, andshe's here to talk about her new
book, The baby bonding book.
She's also the co host of theAAP pediatrics on call podcast.
In this episode, we talk aboutwhat truly supports a baby's
(00:21):
development, and that is strong,nurturing relationships with
their caregivers. We talk abouthow it's normal for bonding to
not happen right away, and whyfancy baby gear isn't nearly as
important as being present. Ifyou're enjoying this podcast,
please share it with a friendand leave a five star review.
Reviews help others find theshow, and it reminds them your
child is normal.
(00:42):
Dr, Joanna, Parga belenky, thankyou so much for joining me
today. I'm so excited to sharewith my audience all of the
wisdom that you shared in yournew book that just came out last
month, the baby bonding book. Sothank you for being here. Thank
you so much for having me. Sotell everybody about yourself.
You're a doctor, you're apodcaster, you're a mother,
share a little bit about who youare. I know you and I share a
(01:04):
lot of things in common. So I'ma neonatologist or a Baby
doctor. I live in Philadelphia.
I am a mother as well. I havethree children. They're ages
seven, five and one, so justcoming out of the baby phase
myself, but my one year old istotally a full blown toddler
right now. So that is great. AndI also work a lot with the
American Academy of Pediatrics.
(01:27):
I'm a spokesperson for them, andI do their weekly podcast called
pediatrics on call. So you weara lot of hats, a lot of hats,
which I feel like a lot ofpediatrician mothers do, and
then within all of that, youstill found time to write a book
that's been impressive. Thankyou. The book was a labor of
love, unintended because it'sabout babies, but it was really
(01:52):
a response to when I was atwork, I get so many questions
about, How do I make sure thatmy baby's brain is developing.
Well, how do I make sure I'mstimulating enough? What are the
things that I should be doing?
And the easy answer to thatquestion is, have a good
relationship with them, safe,stable, nurturing relationships
are what build baby's brains.
(02:15):
And so I really wanted to getparents back to that, to them
realizing that they're enoughand for them to really focus on
relationship building with theirnewborn, which can be hard
because parenting a newborn is achallenging phase of parenting.
So I was really hoping to helpparents connect with their
babies and find the joy inbuilding that relationship. Do
(02:36):
you feel like those questionsare happening more and more
because of easy access to socialmedia. Or do you think those
questions that parents haveafter having babies is a normal
process? It's definitely normalto have questions when you have
a baby, babies don't communicatein the same way that we do, and
so figuring out how your baby'strying to communicate with you
is a part of what makesparenting a newborn challenging,
(02:59):
and they need 24/7 care. I mean,being tired is a fixture of
parenting a newborn, I think.
But on top of that,modern parenting has allowed for
us to have information at ourfingertips. There's so much
knowledge that you can get frombeing on the internet, and not
all of it's good information,and so I do think there's this
(03:19):
extra stress on parents today tofeel like they have to know
everything about the care oftheir baby, and I think that
takes away from the experientiallearning that is so much a part
of relationship building with ababy. And again, I want parents
to get back to the joy that isgetting to know someone and not
knowing all the answers, whichis stressful Yes, but also can
(03:42):
be exciting. And I think part ofthe reason why the questions
feel more and more is becausethere's less of the village,
quote, unquote, to rely on. AndI think because the social media
world makes everything look soperfect, that makes things
harder for moms, because we allknow that nothing's perfect.
Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I'mactually really happy you
(04:03):
brought up the village, the ideaof community, because a lot of
times when parents are like,Okay, what do I need for my
baby? You need to sit down andthink about who are the people
that support you, who are thepeople that are going to step up
parenting a newborn. It can't bean individual pursuit. It's
something that you needcommunity for. It's something
that you need other people for.
(04:25):
So who are the other people? Thegrandparents, the best friends,
the neighbors, the pediatrician,but you need other people. And
it can't just be your phone,because you need physical
support for your baby's braingrowth and development and for
you to take a time out too,especially if you're the mom or
the primary parent for thatinfant, right? And so that
concept of a village and acommunity is just so important.
(04:47):
I feel maybe I'm not entirelycorrect on this, but I feel like
more and more families don'thave that village. I think it's
just hard. Maybe because ofjobs, you live far from your
family, maybe your spouse isfrom a different state than.
You. And a lot of people areaway from their biologic
village, which I think is okay,I think you can substitute that
with other relationships, but Ijust feel like today it's harder
(05:10):
and harder to make that happen.
I think that contributes a lotto the stress of a new parent.
And the newborn period itself isa kind of isolating period,
right? And parents do yourightly worry about things like
infection in those first fewmonths. And so this is an
isolating time in general. And Iagree we're in this virtual
world now where you might noteven have a job, where you need
to go into the office. And so Ithink there has to be an
(05:32):
intentional effort to seek outcommunity. But remember, what
the newborn needs for theirbrain growth and development is
a safe, stable, nurturingrelationship. They need an
attentive, loving caregiver, andit can just be one. It can Yes,
but for that caregiver, it can'tjust be you. For myself, if I
have a question about how to fixsomething or how to solve a
(05:53):
problem, it's so easy to go ontoyour phone and say, How do I
treat a diaper rash? And maybethere'd be a lot of value in
asking for the wisdom from yourmother, your grandmother, from
somebody else in your familywho's been through it, or a
friend who's been through it.
But I do think there's sometrickiness, love or hate it with
the digital world and the easeof the digital world well, and
it's like, if you YouTube thediaper rash, let's take that as
(06:15):
an example. It's not a back andforth you're gonna have with the
YouTube video about the diaperrash. And so you could do
everything the video saysperfectly. And the diaper rashes
are so ubiquitous. I mean, theyhappen, they're gonna happen,
that it might not be the thingthat helps with your diaper
rash. And so having someone totalk to about it, like find a
pediatrician you really trust.
And again, it's the humanconnection that builds a baby's
(06:38):
brain. So in the first year oflife, the baby's brain is
growing tremendously. It'screating all of these new
neuronal networks. It's probablythe biggest time of brain growth
in your entire life as a humanbeing. And to make sure that
your baby's making all theseconnections and feeling like
they can trust the world aroundthem and that they have someone
(07:02):
to learn from, is thatrelationship with you they're
always learning from theirloving, trusting caregivers. And
so this gets to do how importantthat your attentiveness and your
caring for that baby really is,because then, when they have a
problem and they're calling out,they're crying, right? Because
that's a big way that babiescommunicate, and you're
responding to it. You'reteaching them how they should be
(07:25):
interacting with the world, andyou're also showing them, hey,
there's somebody really caresabout me that's trying to
comfort me, and that is going tolay the foundation of how their
brain responds to theenvironment in the world. And so
many things that you're settingup in that early period of time
just by interacting with babyand responding to them.
(07:47):
As a pediatrician, I find itincredibly fascinating to look
at what newborns are capable ofdoing, because all of their
normal newborn reflexes promotebonding with a caregiver. So for
example, they have somethingcalled the Palmer reflex. If you
push in the center of theirhand, they grasp your hand,
which How do you not fall inlove with your baby if they hold
your hand from the get go? Ialso think it's interesting that
(08:09):
if you look at the vision of ababy, they can only see about 12
inches away, which is exactlythe distance from your face to
how far away they would be ifyou're holding them in your
arms, and even with feeding, ifyou tickle them on the cheek,
they'll immediately respond bywanting to root to feed. And
feeding a baby promotes bonding.
So it makes sense biologicallythat the things that they are
(08:30):
born innately doing promotebonding with a caregiver. And
it's incredible. It's about sixweeks that they start making out
faces too, and that's when theysmile at you, and that's when
parents, I think, get more intobonding with baby, because so
they're like, Oh, wow. Like, nowthey really see me, but that
brain is laying down itsfoundations, and they are
(08:50):
primed. They are primed forrelationships and for building a
relationship, because, again,that is supporting their
neurodevelopment. And it's true,it's so fascinating to see that
the subsequent capabilities thatthey have as they get older are
smiling, making better eyecontact. You know, around two
months they're cooing, where youlook at them and you say
(09:12):
something, and then they respondback to you. So I agree, they
are really primed and set up toconnect with you, which makes it
really joyful. I say thisbecause a lot of parents have a
hard time in those first fewweeks, but very quickly they are
giving back to you. They'resmiling at you. They're cooing
with you. Gets more fun as timegoes on, and I it is really hard
in those first few weeks,because it's demanding. Not only
(09:34):
do they need you for theirsurvival and to feed them and to
change them, but they are alsoneeding you to figure out how to
communicate with them. I have alot of parents that struggle
with that, because they don'tfeel like the baby's doing
anything. I've heard babiesdescribed as things like sacks
of potatoes or house plants, butreally the things you're doing
(09:55):
in that period are things thatare.
Are shaping how they're going torespond to the world. And one
thing you mentioned, I reallywanted to highlight for
families, because I have a lotof families be like, how do I
bond with this baby that doesn'tgive me much? And the cooing and
the cooing back that has a namethat's called serve and return.
(10:15):
So the baby is serving up, I'mgoing to vocalize, and then the
parent vocalizes back. You'restarting a conversation with
them, and they maybe have anidea of what they're trying to
communicate, but you don't, butyou're responding to them, and
it gets to the point where youdon't have to have all the
answers, like if you have acrying baby, which is a
stressful thing, especially Ifelt like, as the birth parent,
(10:37):
when my baby cried, it just gotmy hormones flaring and I was
upset, and sometimes I wouldn'tbe able to stop them from
crying. I had a colicky baby, myfirst baby, and so sometimes I
just would not be able to figureout why they were crying. But
the act of trying, andyou don't have to get it right,
but the act of trying is soimportant for making that baby
feel secure and for opening upthat baby to interacting with
(10:58):
the world, and they are watchingus, and they are appreciating
the things that we're doing,even though they can't say it,
because it's so important forthem to have that connection
with us. Yeah, I think we haveto believe it, because you're
right. We don't feel a lot inreturn. Yet, they're not talking
to us. They're not telling usthat they appreciate us, that
they love us. So you have tobelieve that it matters as much
(11:18):
as it does, because it doesmatter. Yeah, and it's
incredible when you allowyourself to take a step back
from our busy world and activelylisten to baby what you start to
learn about them. Andrelationships take time to
build. So again, if you don'tfeel that relationship day one
hour zero, that's okay, becauseyou're building a relationship
(11:38):
over time, and the newbornperiod is fleeting. Childhood is
also fleeting, and then you havethis adult.
So I always tell parents too,yes, this is really hard. Make
it feel really intense, but takea step back and think of this
adult that you're going to haverelationship and you want to
raise, and sometimes that helpsto be more reflective about the
(11:59):
future when the now is so hard.
Yeah, I'm reflecting back when Ihad my first born, like your
first child, she was reallycolicky. She cried all the time.
There was very little that Icould do, honestly, besides feed
her where she wouldn't becrying. And it was very
stressful. And I rememberfeeling like I really wanted to
bond with her, and I felt badthat it wasn't as innate, it
wasn't as easy as I wanted tobe. So do you have any advice
(12:21):
for moms in a similar situationwhere they have a newborn, they
have a desire to bond, but it'snot coming easy. What would your
advice be to that mom? Because Iknow this happens more than
people realize, yeah, becauselove at first sight is like
something that's in the movies.
It's not real life. In reallife, relationships are messy.
(12:41):
They're complicated, I wouldsay, reflect on some of the
adult relationships you have inyour life, and very often,
there's ups and downs to everyrelationship. And love is not
this steady thing. Love growsand expands and changes and
evolves as you do. And I thinkit's hard, because there's this
(13:02):
idea that you're going toimmediately bond with your
child, and maybe it's the casesometimes for some parents, but
I think for a lot of people,that bonding period does take a
while, also right after birth,it's a very emotional time. You
know, I work in a job where Isee deliveries not go the way
that people had really hoped andplanned for those deliveries to
go, and so that makes for a muchrougher start in starting a
(13:27):
relationship with somebody whenyou're meeting them and and we
have to talk about how there ispostpartum depression and
anxiety. There's sort of twinsof each other. The postpartum
blues is really common up to 80%of birth parents feel very
emotional around the time ofdelivery, and sometimes when I'm
caring for families, the motherswill just cry for little things.
(13:52):
And so we have to be aware thatour emotions are changing, our
hormones are changing, and ourmental health is different
around the time that we have ababy, and all of these things
can influence how you bond withthat baby. So I think it's just
really important again toremember that this is a lifelong
relationship that you'rebuilding, and if it's not love
(14:13):
at first sight, that is okay.
Also thinking for myself, I feltlonely. There were times when
I'd be home with the baby and Idreamt of catching up on Netflix
and having it really feel fun tojust be at home with a newborn,
but honestly, it was anythingbut fun. I can say this because
now she's 14, and she'swonderful, but at the time, it
was very stressful because shewas crying all the time, and in
(14:34):
those first couple of months, itwas hard to really feel bonded
in the way that I wanted. Sowhen I look back, I think what
really helped me, just this isjust for anyone listening who
might be in the same situation.
What really helped me, because Iam not introverted. I get a lot
of joy from being around otherpeople. I started to ask people
for help, and also when peopleoffered to help, I tried to say
(14:57):
yes, because I think.
Think for a lot of people, theinstinct is to not take the
help. But I would encouragepeople, if you're struggling, if
you're feeling lonely, if you'refeeling isolated, just try it.
Just see what happens. Just takethe help from the in laws, from
the cousins, from the friends,because it helps them also bond
with your baby, which is helpfulfor everybody. And help takes
(15:19):
different forms. You werementioning having a meal
prepared. They could be comingover too, not to hold the baby,
but to help you run a load oflaundry or take your package to
the post office, or to give you30 minutes to take a shower,
where you know someone'swatching the baby, and it
doesn't have to be you. So thehelp can look a variety of
(15:39):
different ways. And you broughtup the amazing point that you
might have all these goals foryour maternity leave, but that
baby needs you, they're going todemand much of your time, and so
not having those goals is alsohelpful. Because I remember with
my first I was like, I'm goingto do all these things. I'm
going to catch up on the allthese shows like you were
talking about. I'm going to readall these books. No, none of
(16:01):
that. I was surviving day to dayand taking care of my baby. And
this gets back to what I wassaying earlier. The time and
energy you're putting intocaring for that child is growing
their brain, and that's all youneed to do. And I think being
able to disconnect in that wayis really tough, especially
today, where we have so manydistractions, but knowing that
(16:21):
like the little things thatyou're doing for baby every day
are really making a differenceis so important. And if you're
someone that has a colicky baby,make sure someone else is
watching them for a while,because it's really hard to
listen to a baby cry for hourson end. I've been there too.
What helped me the most was whenmy mother in law, my mom, would
come and take the baby away fromme for a little bit of time,
(16:41):
even a half an hour, would makea huge difference. I totally
agree, and there's a saying thatI like that disappointment comes
when expectations are not met.
So I think if you can keep yourexpectations a little bit on the
lower side, especially in thosefirst few months, just take it
day by day. Know it's going tobe hard, know that you're going
to feel sleep deprived. Knowthat it takes some time to feel
mentally the way you feltbefore, and just give yourself
(17:04):
grace. And I think that also canmake a difference. It's somber,
but there are such moments ofjoy peppered in there too, in
all that hardship. Because whenyou do hard things and you
dedicate yourself to them,there's joy in that too. There's
joy in watching the baby grow,in watching in that first smile,
(17:24):
in seeing how other peopleinteract with your baby and
being able to share that. Andeven something as simple as I
had two girls, and like puttinga particular bow on them for an
hour brought me joy. And socapture that joy, so that when
you're in those moments that arereally hard, you can also
reflect back on those littlethings. I do agree, enjoying the
(17:47):
good moments is so important, itmakes all the difference being
present as best you can. But Iguess I'm more reflecting on the
harder times, just for people toknow that if they are going
through it, it's normal, and itwill get better, yeah, such a
short time, really, but it's sointense. It's so intense when
(18:08):
you're in it,so it doesn't feel that way when
you're living it. I think it's agreat reminder for people that
bonding can take time.
Connection doesn't always happenimmediately, but it will happen.
The bonding will happen. So Ireally like there's a part in
your book where you talk abouttoday's focus on baby gear, all
the elaborate registries. Whatdo you think we're getting wrong
(18:30):
as a culture when it comes tonewborn care? Well, I think that
the fact that there are so manythings you could buy for a baby
just speaks to how challengingthis part of parenting can be
because people are trying tofind solutions for it, and so
they're trying to come up withthese things that'll make it
easier. It's not easy. It's justnot an easy part of parenting.
And truthfully, to care for anewborn baby, you only need a
(18:55):
handful of things, and otherwisethe baby really just needs a
loving, attentive caregiver.
They need someone to respond tothem, something to be there for
them. And so instead of focusingall this time on making this
list of things that you couldbuy, make a list of people that
are going to be there for you,that you know you can call upon
to help, and that want to comehelp and be a part of you and
your baby's life, and also makethat space for recognizing that
(19:16):
you are the most important thingfor your baby. I couldn't agree
more that I think today'sculture has made everything feel
way too fancy. There's way toomuch stuff to think about, and
it's easy to fall for that trap,because if you go to a baby
store and you see all this gearand diaper warmers and different
kinds of bottle warmers anddifferent options for blankets
(19:38):
and binkies, and literally, youcould mortgage your home and all
the money that you could spendon baby gear. And I always think
about this time when I wasgetting ready for my first born.
I had a conversation with myfriend's older brother, who was
about to have his fourth child,and I was telling him about my
registry, and I was asking forhis advice on what I would need
to get. And he said to me,honestly.
(20:00):
All you need is a blanket and adiaper, everything else you'll
figure out later. And I rememberthinking he was so calm and so
confident saying, that's all Iwould need. And I really
reflected on that, because afterI had my child, he was right.
The rest of the things that weneeded. As time went on, we
figured out you can feel likeyou need a lot more, when the
truth is, you really don't needhardly any of it. Yeah, and it
(20:23):
can over complicate that tryingto start a relationship, right?
Because you're like, Oh, well,if I don't have this thing, I'm
going to be in trouble likeyou're not. You could do it.
The ultimate goal is to have, asyou said, a safe, stable
relationship and watch them growup and be close and connected.
You don't need the Diaper Genieto make that happen. Yeah, so I
(20:43):
had my son, and eventuallyyou'll get peed on by a baby boy
if you have a baby boy in yourhouse and you're caring for
them, because that's just whathappens. And I remember someone
was like, Oh, do you have thePPTP? And I was like, what's
that? And it's like, thiscontraption you could buy that
you could throw over the penis,and it'll catch the urine when
you're changing. And I was like,Why?
(21:04):
Why do I need that? Like, Icould just put a wipe on it, or
I could just try to be reallyquick, like, aware that it could
happen, you know, because Ithink even if you had it PPTP,
you're still probably going toget peed on. And in a way,
making the mistakes is part ofthe process, right? And helpful,
because it helps you learn. Youknow that that dad who was
giving you wisdom about thefourth baby, he wasn't like
(21:27):
that, I'm sure with the firstyou know. So you really gain
knowledge as you care for moreand more babies. Yeah, you grow
into it. I definitely can saythat the size of my diaper bag
from my first child to my thirdit. It was unrecognizable. The
first diaper bag was loaded witheverything you could think of,
multiple outfit changes,blankets, teething toys and
(21:49):
whatnot. And I don't even knowif we had a diaper bag for my
third child in all Can I tellyou? Because my third is still a
year old, right? And so thefirst we always had the diaper I
was, like, decked out. We hadeverything we needed in it,
because, for whatever reason, Iwas like, Oh, if they have a
dirty onesie, it's at the end ofthe world. But like, with my
third we're often in the car,we're like, a half hour away
from the house, and my husbandwill turn to me and be like, Did
(22:13):
you pack the diaper bag? And Iwas like, what diaper bag?
There's no diaper bag.
Like, it's just funny that,like, we're often just
forgetting it. Now, one time, Iremember my husband walked out
the door with just a diaper inhis back pocket and our child,
and I said, that's all you need.
And he goes, we'll figure therest out. And he wasn't wrong.
He wasn't wrong. He took agamble. So okay, so bringing
back to I think what's soimportant here, and I think the
(22:34):
crux of your message is howbonding with our child really is
what matters at the end of theday, I'm thinking specifically
for the parents that might findparenting a little boring in
those early months. Do you haveany advice to help foster that
connection so that it reallyfeels good for the parent?
I think, I think really allowingyourself to focus on what you
(22:59):
want this relationship to looklike and know that it's a long
term endeavor and not somethingthat you need to figure out the
minute the baby is born. So giveyourself time and space and
recognize that while there is ajoy in raising a newborn, there
it is a challenging period ofparenting, and it is okay to
take a break. You also talkedabout in your book how routine
(23:22):
can matter, how simple dailyroutines, like feeding,
responding to cries, the mostbasic needs of the baby, if you
respond to those that can make adifference in helping
attachment. Can you explain thata little bit more and why that's
the case? Yeah, one of myfavorite things to do with my
babies was just the tasks Ineeded to do around the house,
and I would add flavor to it bynarrating it to the baby. So as
(23:46):
I was folding the laundry, Iwould kind of play with the
sheets, with them, but also talkto them about how I was doing
the laundry, what the laundrywas, you know, things that are
boring to me, and I think that'sso important for caregivers to
know, the things that are reallystimulating and brain boosting
for your baby to sometimes bereally boring for you, and
that's okay, because then Icould incorporate the baby in
(24:08):
the daily tasks I needed to doaround the house. I was a big
baby wearer, so I would talk tobaby a lot while they were
sleeping on me, just movingaround the house, like I
mentioned, the laundry, likeloading and unloading the
dishwasher too. We talked aboutserving return too, how you
could just respond to the thingsthe baby's trying to tell you,
and that's actually buildingtheir language and also their
(24:28):
connection with you as aneonatologist or a baby doctor,
that skin to skin, and actuallyholding particularly really
fresh newborn babies helps themkind of regulate their own
physiology. And that's what likereally newborn babies want, is
that closeness with theircaregiver, so the act of even
just holding them is enough tobe helping that brain circuitry
(24:52):
start to grow and fire. And Ithink it's also important to
realize that play is somethingthat is really a.
Essential in framing how thebaby develops and really play
can look like a lot of differentthings. Sometimes just talking
and interacting is play. Butalso, you don't need fancy toys
or fancy mats or play mats forthis. You just need to be
(25:14):
allowing yourself the time tohave joy with baby and show them
different things and talk tothem and be on the floor with
them and making eye contact withthem. For baby, that is very
stimulating, and that is play.
So again, find the joy in itwhere you can, because it is
such a demanding phase.
Now I have to ask you, you're aneonatologist, beyond the three
(25:36):
years of pediatric residency,you also did an additional few
years to learn more aboutbabies, correct? That's correct.
Yeah. Okay, so I just want toask you these questions, because
a lot of parents are worriedthat something is wrong with
their baby. Can you just telleverybody what are the real red
flags? What are the real worriesthat parents should be aware of
(25:57):
when they have a newborn? Soyour newborn should be
interested in eating, right?
They should be engaged inwanting to feed eight to 12
times in a day, which is roughlyevery three hours. But some
babies will wake up in an hourand a half and be hungry, or
they'll do wake up in three anda half hours. So no schedule
there, but thinking about theamount of feeds, they should be
pooping and peeing, so watchingtheir diapers is sometimes a
(26:20):
really important thing forcaring for baby. A lot of
parents intuitively know yousupport the baby's head, right?
Because they don't have, like,very strong necks, and so they
can't hold their heads up, butin thinking about that too, they
have really tiny airways, sosafe sleep, to me also making
sure there's nothing that canblock their nose or their mouth.
And they primarily like tobreathe out of their noses, so
(26:41):
you want to make sure that inthe times when it's 3am and
you're really tired, that youhave your baby in a safe spot,
so you don't need to be worriedabout how their airway is or how
they're breathing at night. Andalso, you're going to have that
safe sleep environment for them.
And then, you know, anytime ababy has a fever is a medical
emergency. It's always useful tohave a thermometer that can take
(27:05):
baby's temperature and make surethat you get baby help if they
have a fever, because all yourpediatrician is going to
recommend going to the emergencyroom for that. And I really have
a very close relationship withmy pediatrician. I think having
a close relationship with yourpediatrician is something that's
going to really help allay someof those worries for you. So
make sure it's someone that youcan ask questions of, that you
(27:26):
can have conversation with, andthat that is going to be open to
really talking with you aboutyour parenting, and making sure
that they're giving you thosepearls for what they're worried
about, too, when things happenand change with baby. And you
know, there's a lot of focustoo, on, you know, baby's weight
and length, and I think thosethings are important, how
they're growing, and the growthcurves. But growth curves are
(27:48):
not individualized. They'repopulation based. And so
essentially, that what the datapoint that you're born at tells
you more about how the placentagrew you than it does about the
growth potential of the baby.
And then afterwards, your babyneeds to find their curve, and
they're going to be babies atthe bottom of the curve, and
they're going to be babies atthe top of the curve, and you
don't know where your baby'sgoing to be. So that's why I
(28:09):
think it's important to havethose regular pediatrician
visits. You know, really, werecommend nine in that first
year of life, which is a lotwhen you think about it, right?
But up to nine visits, maybemore to help watch how the
baby's growing and developingwith you, but growth and those
parameters are just one part ofoverall health for your baby.
And I'm also just curious, as aneonatologist, do you find that
(28:30):
there are common concerns thatparents bring up with you that
you wish they knew not to worryabout? I think again, this gets
back to they're really justwanting their baby to have the
best start, right? Like theywant their baby to
be able to have the beststimulation to let their brain
(28:51):
grow. And I think we lose thefocus on how important
relationships are. So thisquestion, for me, it really gets
back to understanding that youare enough and that it's the
relationships that you have withyour baby that are going to be
the ones that are moststimulating for them as they get
bigger. Yes, and I do think thepower of the mind, I believe, is
so important. So for example, mysecond child, I was nervous
(29:15):
because my first child, by thetime she was two, I just loved
her so much, and I could notpicture loving another baby as
much as I loved my first born.
So I was feeling guilty already.
How could it be possible that Icould love him in the same plane
as my first kid? And I remembertalking to my dad, and I
expressed what I was worriedabout, and he said to me, Look,
(29:38):
I have three kids. I have youand your two sisters. Can you
tell that I love any of you anydifferently? And I said, No, I
can't. He goes, it'll justhappen. And I felt so reassured
by talking to him, expressing myworries and having him just give
me this common sense answer, Ithink, made a big difference.
And from that point forward, Ijust believed.
(30:00):
I'm going to love him as much asI love my daughter. And of
course, it became true. So Ithink a lot of the lessons that
I've learned parenting that havemade me feel better have been
reaching out to others who aremore experienced, and then
having the mindset that myworries aren't going to happen,
that things are going to workout in the best positive way.
And I do think if you canconvince yourself to have that
(30:22):
positive mindset, it will make adifference. I think you're
totally right. I remember I hadthe same guilt when I had a lot
of infertility issues gettingpregnant the first time. So I
just kind of assumed I wouldhave sort of the same issues
when I was trying to getpregnant with my second and then
that pregnancy happened rightaway, and I was overwhelmed with
guilt that, oh, my other baby isnot even two, and here I am
(30:45):
pregnant again. How is thisgoing to affect our connection?
But it's just again. It's thoserelationships. And I have to say
too, it's really incredible towatch the sibling relationship
develop between my two oldestand now my youngest in the mix.
I mean, love is so powerful.
Your heart can really grow insize, but the relationships are
all different, which is reallycool. It's so true. I think if,
(31:07):
if anyone's feeling that guilt,if you again, take take a step
back and you think about howmany people that you know are
really close with theirsiblings, or how many parents
feel joy when they watch theirsiblings play, it is true that
it really is the best, as theysay, the best things money can't
buy. I think that there'snothing truer than looking at a
really special relationship,like between parents and their
(31:28):
kids or between siblings. So Ithink what you're talking about
is really important. It's areally good reminder for people
to take to think about the bigpicture, about what really
matters. And thank you forputting it into words. Well,
thank you so much for having meon today. It's been so nice to
chat with you. Thank you forlistening, and I hope you
enjoyed this week's episode ofyour child is normal. Also, if
you could take a moment andleave a five star review,
(31:51):
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica. See
you next Monday. You.
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