July 14, 2025 • 39 mins
Friendship is one of the most important parts of childhood—and yet, many kids struggle to make and keep friends, especially in today's tech-heavy world. In this episode, I talk with friendship expert and podcast host Nina Badzin about how parents can support their children's social lives. We cover how to help kids initiate plans, what makes a healthy friendship, why being the “hosting house” matters, and how to guide your child through conflict and growing apart from friends. This episode is full of practical tips for helping your child feel more confident, connected, and socially capable.
To learn more from Nina, please follow her on instagram @dearninafriendship, subscribe to her podcast: Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship and subscribe to her substack to learn her insights about friendships.
Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.
For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Your social life is in your hands. If you want plans,
(00:04):
you make plans. You do not waitfor someone to invite you.
Whether you are 10 years old or85 years old.
Hi everyone, and welcome back toyour child is normal. I'm your
host, Dr, Jessica Hochman, andtoday we're talking about a
topic that's near and dear to myheart, something that I believe
is essential for healthychildhood, and honestly, for
adults too, and that is thetopic of friendships. Friendship
(00:26):
is a skill kids need to learnand practice just like anything
else, and as parents, weactually play a big role in
helping them build those socialmuscles. Joining me today is
friendship expert Nina badson.
Nina is the host of the dearNina podcast, which I highly
recommend. She's also a writerwho spent over a decade offering
thoughtful, practical adviceabout friendships, so whether
your child is struggling to makefriends or just needs a little
(00:47):
encouragement to put themselvesout there, this episode is full
of insight and takeaways thatyou can use right away, and a
big thank you to Nina for beinghere. I definitely learned a lot
from this conversation. Andalso, before we get started, if
you're enjoying your child asnormal, please consider leaving
a five star review wherever itis. You listen to podcasts, it
really helps the show grow andreach more parents like you.
Now, let's get into it. Ninabasin, I think the subject of
(01:11):
friendship is so important, sothank you for being
here. I agree my whole, everymoment of my work life is
dedicated to this topic. So I'mso glad to be here to talk to
you so you have a podcast that'stotally dedicated to the subject
of friendship, correct?
And it came from advice columnthat I had for about seven years
(01:32):
about friendship, and then Irealized the audience is really
listening. Now they're notreading as much, and that was
four years ago. So in 2021 Istarted dear Nina conversations
about friendship. And the earlydays, I really based it on the
letters I was still getting, andI still get letters, and I use
those letters on my sub stacknewsletter that's called
conversations about friendship.
But the podcast has taken on acompletely different life.
(01:55):
Although the themes are thesame, it's really focused on
adult friendship. Sometimes Icover teens, but the truth is,
all friendship skills areageless and timeless. And
actually, I used to have aparenting column, and the
friendship column came from theparenting column. I wrote a
parenting column for brain childmagazine for a few years, and
around that time, I was hired towrite a friendship advice
(02:18):
column, not because I'm atherapist, because I'm not, but
because I'd written a lot aboutfriendship, and I have a very
practical take. It's a topicI've always cared about, and
then that turned into its ownbody of work. So I've been
writing about friendship for adecade. You've been talking
about this subject for a longtime. Is there something that
you can pinpoint to why this hasbecome your passion?
Yes, I would say three things.
I'll try to make it brief.
(02:39):
Number one, and it's pertinentto this episode, friendship was
so important to my parents. Imean, they talked about it all
the time, they modeled it allthe time. They always spent time
with friends and not like in aparty. Ish kind of way. My
parents were actually moretraditional, but they always
were involved in their ownthings, book clubs and different
things. My dad would shoot hoopswith his buddies in our
backyard. He played tennis. Heplayed bridge. Both my parents
(03:02):
played bridge in a couplesgroup. Friendship was a big
deal, and they talked about itand they modeled it, and they
left us with babysitters a lot.
And I don't mean that in aresentful kind of way. I've
really modeled our adult lifeafter that, although we're quite
a bit more religiously observantthan my parents were. So I mean,
we're home on Friday nights nomatter what. We have friends
over for Shabbat dinner, but wego out on Saturday nights like I
always had a babysitter when thekids were little, and we went
(03:24):
out every Saturday night, and wemostly still do. So that's one
thing. Is my parents modelingit. After high school, I was
ghosted by my very best friend,and that really had an effect on
me big time. And it comes uphere and there. And I'm 48 years
old. Just to give context, I was18 at the time, and that was
before ghosting was a term. Ididn't call it that at the time,
(03:46):
I called it being dumped. Youknow, in 1995 we called it being
dumped. But now people call itbeing ghosted. Same idea. And
then I would say the next thingwas moving to Minneapolis as an
adult, knowing zero people. Ihad never really had trouble
making friends before, justbecause I never moved as a kid,
my mom just sold the house thatI grew up in, that my father
(04:08):
grew up in. I mean, we were inChicago forever, and then I
didn't really have a hard timein college or camp. I mean, I
had times like we all do, whereI was left out, where people
accused me of leaving them out,the regular stuff, but not real
trouble. Moving to Minneapolis,I really had a hard time. And so
then going through that piece ofit is part of what I would write
about sometimes in those earlywriting years. And then I ended
(04:28):
up having other advice columnson different topics that advice
voice just really fit with me.
And friendship is it's alwaysbeen there. It's been there
forever. I love thistopic tremendously. I feel like
it can relate to you on manylevels. When you're talking
about your parents, havingfriendships is such a big part
of their life. And I wonder if alot of people listening can
relate to that as well. Maybethis shift away from having
(04:50):
friends so involved in your lifehas to do with the new world and
in terms of social media andeverything is much more. Yeah,
on the screens rather thangetting together in person.
Yes, I agree, the screens, thesocial media, and I agree that's
a huge difference that parentsnowadays had from our parents. I
think there's another thing. AndI know you've covered this on
(05:12):
your show too, a lot of peopleare very involved with their
kids sports, and that hasreplaced the social time. So of
course, you can't make a plan ona Saturday night because your
kid might have a tournament, andyou're not going to get the
tournament schedule. Tournamentschedule until a day before. So
how can you make a plan? I thinkthis is a mistake, but I also
don't know exactly the way outof it for people, so I would
(05:32):
just be aware of it. If yourentire social life has been
based on your kids sports, Ipromise you that you are going
to be writing me an anonymousletter in 10 years. I get a lot
of letters from people who arenewly empty nesters, and they
realize, oh, wait, I don't havereally any close friends.
It's true. I think there's alsosomething about that period of
life where you're raising yourchildren. I think it's
(05:53):
particularly difficult becauseyou're so busy and consumed with
your kids, whether it's sports,whether it's music, you know,
whatever extracurricular thatthey're involved in. What I try
to do with my friends is just tohave some touch points. You
know, I'll send them a text ifI'm thinking about them, or
we'll try to schedule somethingin the future. And you can
probably comment on this more.
It's worth keeping up with yourfriendships. At some point we
become empty nesters, and youwant to make sure that those
(06:15):
relationships have been somewhatnurtured, because I do want to
make sure that we all havefriends when that time comes?
Yeah, that's a big part of myaudience, I think, are people
who find themselves in a time oflife where they want to be
working on their friendshipsagain. So it's okay if you're
starting over at that time, butit would be nice if you've kept
that social muscle exercised.
You know that you didn't justbecome friends with people who
(06:38):
happen to be in your space, butthat you actively seek people
out that share your interests asan adult. And again, this is
good modeling for the kids.
Absolutely. I love your podcasttopic because I think a lot of
people didn't have that modeledfor them, or they're not quite
sure how to not only makefriends, but then keep friends.
What's some basic advice thatparents can give their kids if
(06:58):
they're having trouble makingfriendships?
When you're talking to your kidsabout friends, the best skill
you could give them is to focuson what they can do, not what
others have done for them. It isa life skill you are giving
them. So when my kids were alittle younger, I used to ask
them, Who did you talk to today?
Not who talked to you, not whoinvited you. Who did you invite
(07:19):
to hang out with at recess? Liketo really constantly remind them
through life, and this isimportant for adults to
remember. I'm telling you thatit isn't always about what
others did for you. Your sociallife is in your hands. If you
want plans, you make plans, youdo not wait for someone to
invite you. Whether you are 10years old, or 85 years old. If
(07:39):
you want to be busy, then youhave to make yourself busy. If
you wait for people to inviteyou, you could be waiting a long
time. Or the people that you'remost interested in might not be
the people that invite you to dothings. Who are you interested
in? Who is somebody that seemsappealing to you, and why? How
do you feel around them? I tellmy kids all the time, and I tell
(08:00):
my listeners, you should befriends with people you like who
you feel good around most of thetime, but not who make you feel
good, because most people,that's putting too much power in
their hands. So people who youlike is chemistry. There is a
thing called chemistry, andsometimes we can't explain
it. You can tell when you'reclicking with somebody you know.
You can tell right away ifthere's something about them
(08:22):
that draws you to one another.
And then there's also thispractical piece of you can have
great chemistry with somebody,and maybe you met them at a
baseball tournament. I'm sorryto keep thinking about sports,
but I'm just thinking of kidsand where kids hang out. But if
that kid lives 45 minutes fromyou, and you're the parent, and
you liked that kid as a parent,I would probably not invest in
that friendship. So that soundskind of harsh, but you can have
(08:44):
the best chemistry in the worldif it's not convenient, and
that's true for adults too. Youcan have just okay, chemistry.
Maybe it wasn't love at firstsight friendship, but they live
around the corner. You invest inthat friendship as a kid or as
the parent for the kid, that's afriendship worth investing in,
because proximity actually is ahuge factor in friendship of all
ages, proximity. I mean, Ireally, really urge people to
(09:06):
focus on hyper local friendship,not just the 20 minute away
friend. I'm talking walkingdistance, biking distance. That
is how your kid will stay busyand social. That's how you will
stay busy and social, and alsoyou as a parent, can get out of
it a little bit whenI think about my own childhood,
or my husband's childhood, ourbest friends were people that
lived around the corner from us,next door to us. So I agree with
(09:27):
you, living close to somebodyreally does matter.
Yeah. And then what I was sayingearlier about being the
initiator, if you could teachone skill to your kids, about
making friends, it is like Isaid, to make plans and to not
be scared, to be the first toinitiate and to be the first to
initiate again and again, andnot to keep score. These are
(09:48):
just basic skills, but they needto be taught. I think our
default as humans is to wantpeople to do for us. I mean, of
course, it's so much easier ifsomeone reaches out to you. I
mean, it's a wonderful and thereare some people. People that are
just magnets, and everyonereaches out to them, and they're
lucky. Those people areexceptions. Most people have to
do the work. And if you canteach your kid that there's
(10:09):
nothing wrong with them, thatthey always have to be the one
to reach out, it really is.
So with my kids, sometimesthey're scared to go up to
somebody and start talking tothem. So at home, will practice.
We talk about giving acompliment or saying something
nice about someone that comesinto your head. So I'll say
whatever it is that you likeabout that person, say it out
loud to them and see how theyrespond. And so my nine year
(10:31):
old, she's been working on this.
She came home the other day andshe said, Mommy, it worked. I
told someone that I liked theirT shirt. Next thing you know,
they're off playing handballtogether. That is a piece of
advice that I've given to mykids. That's
great advice for adults, too, bythe way. Adults, too, by the
way, like you start theconversation, you offer
something and a compliment. So awonderful way to do that, and
it's a generous thing to do. Whowouldn't feel good about that?
We also role played a lot withthe kids growing up. I don't
(10:54):
think I said this on theepisode. You just know this, but
I think it's good for listenersto know that my kids are older
than yours, so I have one that'salmost 21, it's 18, one that's
16, and one that is 13. So I'vebeen through a lot of the things
you've been through, and I havethe college thing going on now.
I have the one going to college.
You know, eventually my kidstake gap years, so that's a
whole thing. I've been through alot of things where they have to
(11:15):
make friends and be in newsituations. And we have done the
role playing. They roll theireyes now at it, because I'll
even do it sometimes thoughthey're like, Mom, stop. The
otherbig piece of this that I also
talk about is asking peoplequestions about themselves,
because I find that peoplereally like talking about
themselves. And you know, youstart to learn as you get older,
that when you talk aboutyourself, it actually it feels
(11:36):
boring. Already know aboutmyself. So I tell my kids, the
more you ask other people aboutthemselves, that's how you
learn, and it feels good to theother person that someone's
showing an interest in them. Sothis is a skill that I've tried
to impress upon my younger kids,that trying to learn about other
people, that that really makes adifference, because I think for
littler kids in particular,they're more egocentric, which
(11:56):
is natural, but that's a skillto learn to show interest in
others. There's a new book outcalled talk by a professor at
Harvard. She's from the businessschool. I think her name's
Allison Brooks, and she talksabout how one of the many
lessons is about askingquestions, and how most people
worry they're asking too manyquestions. And the truth is,
it's very hard. I mean, they'vedone research on this, it's very
(12:19):
hard to actually reach thethreshold where you've asked too
many questions that actuallymost people ask less questions
than they think they are asking.
So don't be afraid to askquestions.
I do feel like we live in an agenow where people are shy or
maybe they don't want to seemlike they're prying. I think
people are so afraid to offendpeople these days, but I do
think that if you take aninterest in somebody, I think
(12:40):
that's a real positive thing todo,
yeah, and it's very noticeablewhen someone doesn't. So it's
very easy to notice when you'reout in a social setting and
you're asking all the questions,and then you leave that thing
and you're like, I don't thinkthey asked me one thing. It's
noticeable. And so you want tobe asking questions,
yes. So these are good tips. Sojust to kind of summarize so
far. So we've talked aboutmaking sure that you're the
(13:01):
initiator. Don't be afraid to goup to others and initiate the
friendship. Don't be afraid tocompliment them. Don't be afraid
to ask them questions even morethan you think. Just keep on
asking and show an interest. Iknow this is a topic we could
keep talking about all day, butany other big points that you
think we could offer as tips toparents to talk to their kids
aboutscheduling is the worst part of
friend making for kids andadults, being in an activity is
(13:25):
a positive thing. The reasonactivities can be a positive
thing is it takes the schedulingout of it. Now, your kid's going
to see somebody and have asocial experience, even if it's
while they're doing an activity,because it's already on the
schedule. You know, they have atennis drill every Tuesdays, and
those might not be their bestfriends, but it is exercising a
social muscle too, becauseusually kids activities are a
(13:45):
little more fun. There's somesocialization in it, but things
that are more group. So it's notthe worst thing to have some
kind of extracurricular activityfor your kid, because it's
something that they don't haveto worry about week to week. It
is on the schedule, it'shappening.
So you're saying that schedulingis a positive for children.
Well, I'm saying that schedulingsocial stuff is the hardest part
(14:09):
about keeping and makingfriends. Well, making first and
then keeping friends is because,first of all, you have to rely
on your parents a lot of timesto make plans for you when
you're younger, and it's veryhard for adults to even make
their own plans, and adults justhave a hard time with this. And
so when something's just on thecalendar, outside of you having
to make the schedule, it'salready on there. It's Mondays,
is tennis group or whatever itis, you at least know that your
(14:32):
kids having that social timethat day, because it's out of
your hands at this point, youhave decided it's on the family
calendar and it's happening.
These are great tips in terms ofinitiating friendships when it
comes to maintainingfriendships. Do you have any
general advice in that capacity?
Yeah, and I'm trying to decideif we're talking about the kids
doing things themselves, or howparents can help the kids. And I
(14:55):
think since parents are thelisteners, it's really how
parents can help the kids,what I'm. And I talk to parents,
their kids just aren't as socialanymore. They're at home more. I
don't know if it's the pandemic,I don't know if it's the phones
or all of the above, but a lotof kids are having struggles.
They don't have that manyfriends, and I think it's a
lonely world out there. And so Ithink what I'm trying to figure
(15:16):
out is, how can we parents helpour kids push beyond
that. Okay, I have a huge tip. Idivide the weekend up into four
social opportunities for kids.
Okay, so here's how I see it andhow it worked. At my house, you
could invite somebody over forour Friday Night Dinner. We
always have Friday Night Dinner,and the kids can have anyone
they want, and they just have tolet me know by Thursday. So I
(15:37):
make enough food, but that's oneopportunity. Saturday day is
another opportunity for us.
Religiously, they would have tohave someone over, like we're
not taking them anywhere, butthey can have anyone over, any
amount of kids over, that'sanother opportunity. Saturday
night is like a separate unit oftime, and then Sunday day, some
of my kids are more social thanothers, and because I think
(15:57):
having friends is so important,I really push this a lot that
you had to just fill one ofthose boxes, not all four,
though, that would be a lot ofpressure to tell a kid that they
need to be busy all weekend,Friday nights, Saturday
mornings, Saturday nights,Sundays. One of those four boxes
you had to check one, basically.
And so I would get off your caseif you told me as a teenager in
my house, if you're 14 years oldand you say, I need a ride to
(16:19):
the mall Sunday because I'mmeeting my friend. Great. I will
get off your case the rest ofthe weekend. Or what are you
doing Saturday night? Because Iactually think that can make
kids feel really bad if you'realways like I'm thinking
slightly older kids now, youknow, maybe 12, 1314, if you're
always saying to your kid, doyou have plans? Or have you
reached out to someone? I don'tpester them as long as they've
told me I have this one plan,but if it's Thursday or Friday
(16:42):
and I haven't heard about oneplan for the weekend, Hey, did
you consider reaching out to soand so we're available Sunday to
drive you somewhere if you want.
I think parents have to helpwith this and remind and
encourage in a positive way.
Encourage your kids to reach outand make plans. That's why I
talked about this at thebeginning, and it is really
really important. It's lowhanging fruit to do the online
(17:05):
stuff, and I think it's a littleeasier for parents too. They
don't have to drive their kidsanywhere. They don't have to
worry about they're feedingeverybody. But you gotta step it
up a little bit. You gotta helpyour kids, and you have to be
willing to host. If you arewilling to host and be the
hosting house, your kids will bebusy, and you have to have stuff
to do at your house that is notjust video games. I just had a
wonderful guest on my podcastnamed Catherine matrinko, and
(17:28):
she wrote a book calledchildhood unplugged. Her kids
are around your kids age, andshe talks a lot about being the
hosting house and having tons ofstuff for the kids to do outside
the house her kids, she has acouple boys that may be around
1516, she has lifting equipmentin the garage. She has stuff
that the kids want to do. Shehas some sort of rope thing in
(17:48):
the backyard, some ropes.
Course, they didn't do it all atonce. You know, over the years,
you kind of collect things anddevelop things, because it isn't
really fair to the kids to say,Get off your screen if there's
nothing for them to do. I thinkthis is such an important point,
because you're right. I thinkfor parents, it's really
important to recognize that wedo have to step it up a little
bit. And I'm guilty of thismyself. I'm a working mom. I
(18:09):
come home, I want to hang outwith my kids and I'm tired, but
we have to, I think, for ourchildren, for their development,
for their emotional well being,it's so important to make that
effort to help them be withtheir friends. Because my kids,
for example, they're not ofdriving age, so I have to be
there to assist. So you'retotally right, and I appreciate
(18:30):
you bringing up thatperspective.
And I would push it on your kidsas early as you can. Like,
meaning you're going to have todeal with other parents yourself
when they're younger. There's noway around it if you are going
to delay your kids getting aphone, which I highly recommend.
I assume you do too as apediatrician, like as late as
possible. But that does meanyou're gonna have to be involved
(18:51):
a little bit, but once they areable to communicate on their
own, to encourage the kids to doit, oh, reach out. You have to
say the words, reach out to soand so you had so much fun last
time. Why don't you see if hewants to come over and even with
my youngest, because now I'mmuch more experienced, I will
suggest to him, let's see if youcan go over there. I know that
seems like kind of rude, but Ilook, if we've had a kid a bunch
(19:12):
of times, instead of beatingaround the bush or hoping that
they'll invite back, just say,Oh, hey, can we come to your
house this time? And he'll doit, he'll text a friend and say,
Can I come over? Andthat's a good lesson in
friendship, too. I thinkreciprocity means a lot, and it
holds a lot of weight, becausenobody wants to feel like
they're doing all the work anddoing all the inviting. It feels
good to be askedback. Yes. Oh, by the way, I'm
glad you brought up reciprocity.
(19:33):
It's one of my biggest topicsthat comes up for adults.
Reciprocity is important, I saidearlier, to not keep score, to
teach kids that reciprocity isnot one for one, it's not I came
to your house now I go to yourhouse and then I go to my house
again, and then your houseagain. Some people just don't
like to have friends over, likeI said, maybe they're more
introverted, and they just don'thave the need as much to have a
(19:54):
friend. So unless someonereached out to them, they're
probably not going to reach out.
But if it's important to youand. Family to have these social
ties, you may just have to do alittle more. So it might be
three to one. I still considerthat reciprocal. They at least
did the one for the three, orthey answer back quickly, or
they're good listeners. And Iagree with who are doing this
one to one. Are alwaysdisappointed in friendship, kids
(20:15):
andadults. I completely agree with
that, and I relate to that. Ithink friends are good for
different reasons, and I thinkwhat's so much healthier is to
look to the good that they bringin your life. So maybe they're a
friend that has you over a lotfor dinner, but maybe they're a
friend that's a really goodlistener. Maybe they're a friend
that loves to go out you'regoing out. Friend to me,
friendships about the feeling.
(20:37):
Are you bringing joy to eachother's life? Are you adding
something to each other's life.
I hear from so many parents thatthey give up on the friendship
for the kids, because theyalways say, well, we've had so
and so over five times. They'venever had my kid over. I think
it's a mistake if your kidenjoys that kid, kid doesn't
enjoy that kid, okay, we couldprobably stop inviting that kid
(20:57):
over, but if your kid does, youare robbing your kid of a
friendship because you as theparent are upset that the other
parent doesn't have your socialskills, maybe, or has a lot on
their plate, has an extra job,has more kids than you have, has
a kid who's some kind of travelathlete, and they truly love
that you invite their kid over,but they're not home to ever
supervise your kid. There's justa lot of unknowns, and we get in
(21:21):
the way of our kids friendshipsby putting our own sort of
sensitivity and level of insultthat we have felt.
No, I think you're right. To me,the bottom line is, is this a
healthy friendship for my child?
And if the answer is yes, therest doesn't matter to me. Yes.
I like being the house where thekids come over because I like
seeing what's happening. I likebeing part of my kid's life. I'm
also happy when my kids go totheir friends houses, but I
(21:43):
agree with what you're sayingearlier about how you want to
make your house fun for thekids, beyond just screens. Yeah,
so this is something I'mconstantly working on.
Yes, it really is on theparents. If you don't want your
kids making tiktoks, 24/7, whenthey're hanging with friends, it
is not actually fair to say thatyou're a kid, if you have
nothing to do in your house, yougotta have stuff to do or let
(22:04):
them bite to the park, if you'renever going to let them out of
your sight. And then you alsoare saying to them in the same
breath, get off Tiktok. Okay.
Well, what else is there to doaround here? Do you ever put
your phone down? I know I soundvery like luxury right now, but
again, back to Catherine, therecent guest. She was quoting
Cal Newport, who's done a lot ofwonderful work on life off of a
screen and really managing yourscreen life. And he had a
(22:26):
expression, fix your analog lifefirst. And it's so important
that, and this is what we'retalking about, if you want
anyone to spend any time off ofa screen, it's will work better
if the things that they haveOffice screen exist. So that's
why they do some extracurricularactivities, or adults too. You
gotta have things to do,otherwise it's impossible to get
(22:48):
off your phone. Your phonesbecome your social life. Well,
of course, if you all of asudden put it down, you're gonna
be lonely if you haven't set upa system of life that exists off
the phone.
Yes, and this is also importantrole modeling for our own
children. What I'm havingdifficulty with my kids is, yes,
I want to be a good role modelfor them, and also when their
(23:10):
friends come over, what's trickyis their friends come over on
phones, and so this is somethingI'm trying to figure out how to
navigate, because I don't wantto embarrass my kids and tell
their friends, hey, do you mindin our home, we try not to look
at phones, or, I'm not sure if Ishould talk to their parents
first. I haven't quite found thesolution to this problem yet,
(23:30):
but I have noticed that the lastnumber of times my kids friends
have come over, they've been ontheir phones, and my kids feel
bad when they see their friendson Tiktok or on social media or
distracted by their phone,because I think that you see
someone else on the screen, thenyou think, Oh, I must not be
that interesting. Or what am Isupposed to do right now? Let me
pick up a phone as well.
Of course, adults do it too.
It's completely contagious. Itis
(23:54):
so that's, I don't know if youhad to deal with that with your
kids and their friends, butyeah, no,
we don't have phones on Fridaynights and Saturdays in our
house. But what helps with thatis that feels like a rule
outside of ourselves. So like,sometimes the kids will tell
their friends now, because theyour kids will be like, oh, you
know, we don't have phones onFriday nights. What they mean
is, in front of my parents,because I'm, you know, who knows
(24:17):
what my kids are doing behindclosed doors. They're much older
now, but they have gotten thememo. My kids and they, without
embarrassment, give it over totheir friends, like, oh, there's
no phones at the table Fridaynight. It's like this rule that
exists, like on high, evenhigher than us, that only helps
on a Friday or Saturday.
But at least you have someboundaries there. Just having 24
hours where kids can learn to bewithout digital devices, I think
(24:40):
is really healthy.
Yeah, every house reallystruggles with this. I will say,
just your house, your rules asyou think, you cannot really
police what happens at otherpeople's houses
though, your house, your rules.
I have to say one thing I'mreally proud of myself for is we
just got back from a vacationwith my sister's kids and my
parents and my daughter, she's14. She's the oldest of all the
cousins. There's nine cousins.
And she came on the trip, andshe did not bring her phone,
(25:02):
because we have a rule thatthere's no phones on trips. I
think it makes a difference,because she's more interested in
playing with her cousins, heryounger cousins.
This is actually really amazing,and you're so right about the
cousin thing, like we've seenthis too on family trips, the
second and older cousin isalways older cousin, right? At
some point transitions togetting a phone. That cousin's
gone. That cousin is like, notone of the kid cousins anymore.
(25:25):
It's really sadwhen she got a phone. That was
one of my fears, and I told her,I don't want you to be the
teenager off in the corner, gonefrom the party. So that is a
rule that we made in our house.
I'm happy that she's sticking toit. So so far. So yeah. So Okay,
another question, do you thinkthat the number of kids that are
together matters? Meaning, I wasalways told as a kid, be careful
(25:45):
with the number three, becausesomeone's going to be left out.
Is that something that parentsshould think about when we're
helping our kids make plans?
That's a really good question. Ijust did an episode on white
lotus, and people were so intothe friendship triangle in that
show. For listeners who haven'tseen it. That was one of many
big plot points that was inSocial Media Lab, these three
adult women who were childhoodfriends, and you're watching
(26:08):
their forever dynamic kind ofplay out. And my thesis there
was, three actually is not aproblem. No number is a problem.
It's the people themselves.
Three doesn't have to be aproblem. It can be but I
actually think three sometimesis better than two, because two
really puts a lot of pressure oneach person to bring a lot to
the table. Sometimes having thatthird person to bounce things
off of lightens the load foreverybody socially. But yeah,
(26:30):
numbers and friendship and kidsreally is an issue, only in that
kids really crave a group. Whenthey see other kids in a group,
the issue really is more liketeaching them to be satisfied
with a smaller number. That'swhere the number thing, I think,
comes into play with kids, isthat it's okay. And not only
okay, but research backs up thatjust having a few close friends
(26:53):
is all you need. Of course,social media, TV shows,
everything makes you want thisgroup. But anyone who's been in
a group, I mean, I've been ingroups, both as a kid as an
adult, knows that it's notalways what it looks like, and I
think that's helpful for kids toknow. I think that's a great
reminder my friend Stacymartinucci, she's a great friend
of mine from medical school.
She's now an OB GYN in NewJersey, but she used to tell me
(27:15):
her grandma gave her this greatadvice. She said, if you have
more close friends, and you cancount on one hand you have too
many good friends. And I alwaysthink about that, because I do
think nowadays people thinkabout, How many followers do you
have? How many friendships Doyou have? We're looking at big
numbers, and the big numbersaren't what matter. It really is
the quality.
(27:35):
Yeah, and that inner circle,that three to five really close
friends that you might have,they change over time. I think
it's another really importantmessage for kids and to model as
adults that it's totally normalfor those inner people to swap
in and out through time.
Yes, I agree. My best friend,his name is Greg. He doesn't
(27:56):
really listen to this podcast,but he's someone I talk to all
the time. We've been really dearfriends since I was 10 years
old. You know, we both hadfriends sort of come and go. And
he has a line, reason, seasonlife.
I mean, the words are mixed up alittle bit, season, reason or
lifetime, I think, but I don't.
People say it in very differentways. But yes, not all
friendships are meant to lastforever, and that doesn't mean
(28:16):
there's anything wrong with thefriendship and the bitterness
and hurt that I felt about thesenior year in high school, or
that she was sort of a foreverfriend that goes to me. I've
matured a lot on my feelings onthat since then. I was
devastated at the time, ofcourse, but I understand now as
an adult that that didn'tnecessarily have anything to do
(28:36):
with me, or even if it did,that's okay, like maybe it had
run its course, and she probablyin an abrupt way, unfortunately,
but fast forwarded somethingthat was going to happen anyway.
I just wasn't ready for it then.
But she wasn't wrong, that weweren't really the right match,
like that. Everything can lastforever. We change as people,
(28:57):
and you can always make newfriends. You're never too old,
it's never too late, and it'shealthy to allow new people into
your life as you change. Now Iagree that you can't have a
bazillion close, close friends,but you can have a wide social
network. It's good for you. It'shealthy.
Another point that is helpful totalk to kids about is how to
treat friends, even if you don'tthink the friendship is going to
(29:18):
last. For example, ghostingsomebody, I don't think is very
kind behavior. Yeah. What issome advice that you can give to
adults, for adults to talk tokids about in terms of how, if
you feel like you've outgrown afriendship, how can somebody
sort of move away from thatfriendship?
It is so hard. This is one ofthose topics where there is not
one right answer and there'sreally no great options. The
(29:41):
textbook thing would be to havea direct conversation and kindly
explain that you feel you'removing into different
directions. I've heard otherfriendship experts talk about
that. I agree that would bewonderful. I think that is very,
very hard. Doesn't mean itwouldn't be a nice thing, but I
think if my friend had donethat, for example, I would be.
Just as hurt who wants to sitdown and hear like the
(30:03):
friendships over, and if you'rereally so sure it's done, I
mean, are you inviting anopportunity for that friend to
give their plea for why itshouldn't be? That is one way.
So I'm just telling you what'sout there is that you can have a
direct but gentle conversationto explain that you're not going
to be as available and you'renot as interested. You don't
want to like be mean about it.
You can make it about you.
(30:25):
You're have other prioritiesright now. I don't think it
would be any easier to hear asthe
recipient. What it's like theold song, Breaking up is hard to
do. It is like a breakup.
There's a term called Quietquitting that kind of started in
the workplace, where maybepeople just weren't putting as
much of an effort into work.
They worked less hours. Theykind of just did the least in
their jobs. That expression isnow morphed into social context,
(30:47):
and people, when they talk aboutquiet quitting, they're talking
about friendships a lot, ordating, and that's somewhere
between ghosting and the directconversation. It's not abruptly
not texting back. It's nottexting back as often. It's not
being as available. This isprobably the most common way to
distance yourself from a friend,and it probably is the most
(31:08):
natural and maybe even thekindest, because I try to teach
my kids things don't have to beso black and white. You want to
be like best friends and thennot friends at all. Can there be
room in your life to seesomebody sometimes, maybe
they're not the person that youwant to have at your birthday
dinner if you're only havingfour people. But can you hang
out with them once in a while?
(31:31):
Can you text back and forth oncein a while? Can you send a funny
meme once in a while? It doesn'thave to be this formal breakup
all the time that, I think, isthe lesson that there is room in
life to not burn a bridge. Andactually, it's good advice to
not burn a bridge and to allowpeople to be in your life in
that in between gray and becomfortable with a little bit of
(31:51):
gray. And I think most of uswould probably prefer that on
the receiving end, but it takesa little discussion with your
kid, if your kids do one whowants some distance, and if
you're the kid who's on thereceiving end of someone who
doesn't respond as quicklyanymore, or doesn't invite you
over as much anymore,I think something like ghosting
feels very hurtful, becausenobody wants to feel ignored.
But I think if you can politelyrespond back, but maybe less
(32:14):
frequently, or maybe stopinviting them over as much, I
think that is helpful advice forkids they've had friends where
maybe they're not as excitedabout the friend, or maybe the
spark isn't quite there anymore.
And I think just pulling back alittle bit is like you said,
feels better to me. I thinkburning bridges is something
that you want to avoid, ifpossible, in life. And
(32:36):
if you go to school with thisperson, or you're on a team with
this person, I would reallyencourage the kids that they
will probably be on thereceiving end of something like
this at some time, and just tokeep it pleasant for everybody,
I think one of the hardestfriendship ending issues that
happens with kids is usuallythis is a very good topic, an
important one, I think, for yourlisteners, it's when the
(32:58):
children of adults who arefriends Don't really have
chemistry anymore, so youprobably got together when you
were young, like the parentswould get together, you would
invite them over, and you'd allbe together. And as the kids get
a little older, I think we seethis usually around, you know,
fourth grade, fifth grade socialgroup sector form, and maybe at
school, your best friend's kidis really in a different group.
(33:18):
That's tough, but kids have tohave the ability to choose their
own friends, that you cannotforce a friendship. So yes, you
can ask your kid to be kind, butat a certain point, this may be
a controversial thing to say. Idon't think it does kids any
favor if they're always invitedbecause the parents are doing
favors for each other. Really anissue. Jessica, this is the kid
(33:41):
who ends up being a sophomore inhigh school who doesn't have a
homecoming group. Why do theynot have a homecoming group?
Because everything they've everbeen invited to before was a
favor to their mom. You have torelease that kid earlier on so
that kid can actually find truefriends who they do have good
chemistry with, friends whoactually want them around, not
just because the mom stood overthem while they were texting to
(34:02):
say, You better invite so andso, because otherwise their
mom's gonna be so upset with me.
And this is where the quietquitting comes in. Maybe the
parents at some point need tohave a slightly more direct
conversation and say, We'regonna be friends no matter what.
I think that's a good point tobring up, that, yes, it's sort
of a bonus if our kids get alongwith our friends kids, but I
(34:22):
think a healthier, morerealistic perspective to help
our kids forge strongfriendships is to let them find
them on their own. And as youpointed out earlier, this is the
part that I'm really going totake from this interview in my
own life to really make surethat we are encouraging and
fostering those friendships andmaking an effort as parents to
help our kids form thosefriendships,
(34:42):
yeah, and give over the messagethat it's in your hands, your
social life is in your hands.
You make the plans, and youthink about, who do you like,
Who do you feel good around, andreach out to those people. But
that's why, yeah, it doesn't doa favor. Do you see what I'm
saying? Like, how it happens? Itreally, I think, damages the
other. Kid, you think you'redoing your friend a favor, and
adults are guilty of callingeach other and saying, Oh, could
(35:04):
you make sure so and so isincluded in homecoming? I keep
using homecoming because it'sthinking about a big group.
Okay, sure, maybe we can do thatfor ninth grade. But at what
point are you going to make itokay for your kid to not be
included, so that they have theopportunity, like they sometimes
have to be set free, so thatthey can be encouraged to find
realfriends. Now, kids inevitably
(35:26):
will fight with their friends.
They'll get into an argument.
How should parents, in yourmind, help our kids navigate
through conflict? Like, do youhave any general advice that we
can offer our kids? Is it justto be a good listener. Is it to
help our kids stand in theirshoes? Are there some general
tips and guidelines that youthink about when it comes to
(35:47):
conflict? Yeah, and it's allthings adults need to do a
better job as well. We don'tactually know what anyone else
is thinking, so the story wetell ourselves about what our
friend is thinking is reallyjust a story we're telling
ourselves, just like no oneknows what we're thinking. And
so I really would encourage yourkid to give the other kid as
much of a break as they givethemselves. Meaning, we make
(36:10):
mistakes. We all make mistakes,but we know why we made them.
Like we know that we saidsomething not that nice at lunch
because we were hungry and wegot a really bad grade in our
test the period before, andthat's why we said something
kind of nasty. It's like, whatif we could give the next person
as much of a break as we giveourselves, and that most people
(36:31):
deserve forgiveness, like we allmess up. So if you're upset with
a friend, it is good to expressit, but not with assumptions.
That's what I'm saying not toalready assume that you know
they did and some things areworth letting go, like, just
like we're saying we people dothings, and it's not always
personal. If it's a repetitivething, somebody's always nasty
to you at lunch and you don'tknow why they're picking on you,
(36:54):
okay, well now that's adifferent thing than they said
something one time. So what I'msaying is help your kid know
when to let something go andwhen to actually bring it up
with I statements, you know notyou are, but like I felt, and
then listen, let them talk, givethem the opportunity. It's a
gift. When you give your friendas an adult or a child, the
opportunity to explainthemselves, it shows you care
(37:15):
about the friendship like I careabout this friendship enough
that instead of me sulking overhere in the corner forever. I'm
going to give you theopportunity to just hear me out,
and I'm going to hear you out,but you can't do that for every
little thing. Part of gettingalong with people is allowing
for some room for mistakes,because you're going to want
that room too.
Totally agree with you. I think,yes, if you start to hear a
(37:37):
pattern from your child thatthere's a particular friend,
where there's a repeating theme,where maybe they're not nice, or
they're not acting kind, okay,maybe we don't have to encourage
that friendship, but if they'regenerally a good friend to your
child, I believe 100% in givingpeople grace, we don't know
what's happening in someone'slife. We don't know what's going
on in someone's mind. They mightinterpret something that your
(37:58):
child did in the wrong way. So Ithink that's such helpful life
advice for all of us. Quitefrankly, you never know what
it's like to stand in somebodyelse's shoes. And I think the
more we remember that, the moreyou forgive somebody, the easier
everything becomes.
Yeah, that's right. Don't holdpeople to impossible standards.
That's what it comes down andyour kids aren't perfect. Either
we can we're advising our kidson friendship. I think we should
(38:20):
remember that our kids are notperfect.
We are not perfect. They're notperfect. They have a lot of
growing to do. And I agree. I dothink sometimes, as parents, we
want to defend our kids all theway, but it's also important for
us to recognize that improvingis a good thing. Learning from
life experiences is going tobenefit them in the long run.
Yeah. So Nina, I've so enjoyedthis conversation. I think your
(38:42):
podcast is helping so manypeople. So thank you for the
work that you're doing. I thinkgetting advice about friendships
would benefit all of us. So telleverybody. Where can we find
you? Somy podcast is called Dear Nina
conversations about friendship,and I'm on Instagram and Tiktok
at dear Nina friendship. Andthen there's the newsletter
conversations about friendshipon substack.
(39:03):
Thank you so much, Nina, it'sbeen really a joy. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. Thankyou for listening, and I hope
you enjoyed this week's episodeof your child is normal. Also,
if you could take a moment andleave a five star review
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica, see
you next Monday. You.
Your social life is in your hands. If you want plans,
(00:04):
you make plans. You do not waitfor someone to invite you.
Whether you are 10 years old or85 years old.
Hi everyone, and welcome back toyour child is normal. I'm your
host, Dr, Jessica Hochman, andtoday we're talking about a
topic that's near and dear to myheart, something that I believe
is essential for healthychildhood, and honestly, for
adults too, and that is thetopic of friendships. Friendship
(00:26):
is a skill kids need to learnand practice just like anything
else, and as parents, weactually play a big role in
helping them build those socialmuscles. Joining me today is
friendship expert Nina badson.
Nina is the host of the dearNina podcast, which I highly
recommend. She's also a writerwho spent over a decade offering
thoughtful, practical adviceabout friendships, so whether
your child is struggling to makefriends or just needs a little
(00:47):
encouragement to put themselvesout there, this episode is full
of insight and takeaways thatyou can use right away, and a
big thank you to Nina for beinghere. I definitely learned a lot
from this conversation. Andalso, before we get started, if
you're enjoying your child asnormal, please consider leaving
a five star review wherever itis. You listen to podcasts, it
really helps the show grow andreach more parents like you.
Now, let's get into it. Ninabasin, I think the subject of
(01:11):
friendship is so important, sothank you for being
here. I agree my whole, everymoment of my work life is
dedicated to this topic. So I'mso glad to be here to talk to
you so you have a podcast that'stotally dedicated to the subject
of friendship, correct?
And it came from advice columnthat I had for about seven years
(01:32):
about friendship, and then Irealized the audience is really
listening. Now they're notreading as much, and that was
four years ago. So in 2021 Istarted dear Nina conversations
about friendship. And the earlydays, I really based it on the
letters I was still getting, andI still get letters, and I use
those letters on my sub stacknewsletter that's called
conversations about friendship.
But the podcast has taken on acompletely different life.
(01:55):
Although the themes are thesame, it's really focused on
adult friendship. Sometimes Icover teens, but the truth is,
all friendship skills areageless and timeless. And
actually, I used to have aparenting column, and the
friendship column came from theparenting column. I wrote a
parenting column for brain childmagazine for a few years, and
around that time, I was hired towrite a friendship advice
(02:18):
column, not because I'm atherapist, because I'm not, but
because I'd written a lot aboutfriendship, and I have a very
practical take. It's a topicI've always cared about, and
then that turned into its ownbody of work. So I've been
writing about friendship for adecade. You've been talking
about this subject for a longtime. Is there something that
you can pinpoint to why this hasbecome your passion?
Yes, I would say three things.
I'll try to make it brief.
(02:39):
Number one, and it's pertinentto this episode, friendship was
so important to my parents. Imean, they talked about it all
the time, they modeled it allthe time. They always spent time
with friends and not like in aparty. Ish kind of way. My
parents were actually moretraditional, but they always
were involved in their ownthings, book clubs and different
things. My dad would shoot hoopswith his buddies in our
backyard. He played tennis. Heplayed bridge. Both my parents
(03:02):
played bridge in a couplesgroup. Friendship was a big
deal, and they talked about itand they modeled it, and they
left us with babysitters a lot.
And I don't mean that in aresentful kind of way. I've
really modeled our adult lifeafter that, although we're quite
a bit more religiously observantthan my parents were. So I mean,
we're home on Friday nights nomatter what. We have friends
over for Shabbat dinner, but wego out on Saturday nights like I
always had a babysitter when thekids were little, and we went
(03:24):
out every Saturday night, and wemostly still do. So that's one
thing. Is my parents modelingit. After high school, I was
ghosted by my very best friend,and that really had an effect on
me big time. And it comes uphere and there. And I'm 48 years
old. Just to give context, I was18 at the time, and that was
before ghosting was a term. Ididn't call it that at the time,
(03:46):
I called it being dumped. Youknow, in 1995 we called it being
dumped. But now people call itbeing ghosted. Same idea. And
then I would say the next thingwas moving to Minneapolis as an
adult, knowing zero people. Ihad never really had trouble
making friends before, justbecause I never moved as a kid,
my mom just sold the house thatI grew up in, that my father
(04:08):
grew up in. I mean, we were inChicago forever, and then I
didn't really have a hard timein college or camp. I mean, I
had times like we all do, whereI was left out, where people
accused me of leaving them out,the regular stuff, but not real
trouble. Moving to Minneapolis,I really had a hard time. And so
then going through that piece ofit is part of what I would write
about sometimes in those earlywriting years. And then I ended
(04:28):
up having other advice columnson different topics that advice
voice just really fit with me.
And friendship is it's alwaysbeen there. It's been there
forever. I love thistopic tremendously. I feel like
it can relate to you on manylevels. When you're talking
about your parents, havingfriendships is such a big part
of their life. And I wonder if alot of people listening can
relate to that as well. Maybethis shift away from having
(04:50):
friends so involved in your lifehas to do with the new world and
in terms of social media andeverything is much more. Yeah,
on the screens rather thangetting together in person.
Yes, I agree, the screens, thesocial media, and I agree that's
a huge difference that parentsnowadays had from our parents. I
think there's another thing. AndI know you've covered this on
(05:12):
your show too, a lot of peopleare very involved with their
kids sports, and that hasreplaced the social time. So of
course, you can't make a plan ona Saturday night because your
kid might have a tournament, andyou're not going to get the
tournament schedule. Tournamentschedule until a day before. So
how can you make a plan? I thinkthis is a mistake, but I also
don't know exactly the way outof it for people, so I would
(05:32):
just be aware of it. If yourentire social life has been
based on your kids sports, Ipromise you that you are going
to be writing me an anonymousletter in 10 years. I get a lot
of letters from people who arenewly empty nesters, and they
realize, oh, wait, I don't havereally any close friends.
It's true. I think there's alsosomething about that period of
life where you're raising yourchildren. I think it's
(05:53):
particularly difficult becauseyou're so busy and consumed with
your kids, whether it's sports,whether it's music, you know,
whatever extracurricular thatthey're involved in. What I try
to do with my friends is just tohave some touch points. You
know, I'll send them a text ifI'm thinking about them, or
we'll try to schedule somethingin the future. And you can
probably comment on this more.
It's worth keeping up with yourfriendships. At some point we
become empty nesters, and youwant to make sure that those
(06:15):
relationships have been somewhatnurtured, because I do want to
make sure that we all havefriends when that time comes?
Yeah, that's a big part of myaudience, I think, are people
who find themselves in a time oflife where they want to be
working on their friendshipsagain. So it's okay if you're
starting over at that time, butit would be nice if you've kept
that social muscle exercised.
You know that you didn't justbecome friends with people who
(06:38):
happen to be in your space, butthat you actively seek people
out that share your interests asan adult. And again, this is
good modeling for the kids.
Absolutely. I love your podcasttopic because I think a lot of
people didn't have that modeledfor them, or they're not quite
sure how to not only makefriends, but then keep friends.
What's some basic advice thatparents can give their kids if
(06:58):
they're having trouble makingfriendships?
When you're talking to your kidsabout friends, the best skill
you could give them is to focuson what they can do, not what
others have done for them. It isa life skill you are giving
them. So when my kids were alittle younger, I used to ask
them, Who did you talk to today?
Not who talked to you, not whoinvited you. Who did you invite
(07:19):
to hang out with at recess? Liketo really constantly remind them
through life, and this isimportant for adults to
remember. I'm telling you thatit isn't always about what
others did for you. Your sociallife is in your hands. If you
want plans, you make plans, youdo not wait for someone to
invite you. Whether you are 10years old, or 85 years old. If
(07:39):
you want to be busy, then youhave to make yourself busy. If
you wait for people to inviteyou, you could be waiting a long
time. Or the people that you'remost interested in might not be
the people that invite you to dothings. Who are you interested
in? Who is somebody that seemsappealing to you, and why? How
do you feel around them? I tellmy kids all the time, and I tell
(08:00):
my listeners, you should befriends with people you like who
you feel good around most of thetime, but not who make you feel
good, because most people,that's putting too much power in
their hands. So people who youlike is chemistry. There is a
thing called chemistry, andsometimes we can't explain
it. You can tell when you'reclicking with somebody you know.
You can tell right away ifthere's something about them
(08:22):
that draws you to one another.
And then there's also thispractical piece of you can have
great chemistry with somebody,and maybe you met them at a
baseball tournament. I'm sorryto keep thinking about sports,
but I'm just thinking of kidsand where kids hang out. But if
that kid lives 45 minutes fromyou, and you're the parent, and
you liked that kid as a parent,I would probably not invest in
that friendship. So that soundskind of harsh, but you can have
(08:44):
the best chemistry in the worldif it's not convenient, and
that's true for adults too. Youcan have just okay, chemistry.
Maybe it wasn't love at firstsight friendship, but they live
around the corner. You invest inthat friendship as a kid or as
the parent for the kid, that's afriendship worth investing in,
because proximity actually is ahuge factor in friendship of all
ages, proximity. I mean, Ireally, really urge people to
(09:06):
focus on hyper local friendship,not just the 20 minute away
friend. I'm talking walkingdistance, biking distance. That
is how your kid will stay busyand social. That's how you will
stay busy and social, and alsoyou as a parent, can get out of
it a little bit whenI think about my own childhood,
or my husband's childhood, ourbest friends were people that
lived around the corner from us,next door to us. So I agree with
(09:27):
you, living close to somebodyreally does matter.
Yeah. And then what I was sayingearlier about being the
initiator, if you could teachone skill to your kids, about
making friends, it is like Isaid, to make plans and to not
be scared, to be the first toinitiate and to be the first to
initiate again and again, andnot to keep score. These are
(09:48):
just basic skills, but they needto be taught. I think our
default as humans is to wantpeople to do for us. I mean, of
course, it's so much easier ifsomeone reaches out to you. I
mean, it's a wonderful and thereare some people. People that are
just magnets, and everyonereaches out to them, and they're
lucky. Those people areexceptions. Most people have to
do the work. And if you canteach your kid that there's
(10:09):
nothing wrong with them, thatthey always have to be the one
to reach out, it really is.
So with my kids, sometimesthey're scared to go up to
somebody and start talking tothem. So at home, will practice.
We talk about giving acompliment or saying something
nice about someone that comesinto your head. So I'll say
whatever it is that you likeabout that person, say it out
loud to them and see how theyrespond. And so my nine year
(10:31):
old, she's been working on this.
She came home the other day andshe said, Mommy, it worked. I
told someone that I liked theirT shirt. Next thing you know,
they're off playing handballtogether. That is a piece of
advice that I've given to mykids. That's
great advice for adults, too, bythe way. Adults, too, by the
way, like you start theconversation, you offer
something and a compliment. So awonderful way to do that, and
it's a generous thing to do. Whowouldn't feel good about that?
We also role played a lot withthe kids growing up. I don't
(10:54):
think I said this on theepisode. You just know this, but
I think it's good for listenersto know that my kids are older
than yours, so I have one that'salmost 21, it's 18, one that's
16, and one that is 13. So I'vebeen through a lot of the things
you've been through, and I havethe college thing going on now.
I have the one going to college.
You know, eventually my kidstake gap years, so that's a
whole thing. I've been through alot of things where they have to
(11:15):
make friends and be in newsituations. And we have done the
role playing. They roll theireyes now at it, because I'll
even do it sometimes thoughthey're like, Mom, stop. The
otherbig piece of this that I also
talk about is asking peoplequestions about themselves,
because I find that peoplereally like talking about
themselves. And you know, youstart to learn as you get older,
that when you talk aboutyourself, it actually it feels
(11:36):
boring. Already know aboutmyself. So I tell my kids, the
more you ask other people aboutthemselves, that's how you
learn, and it feels good to theother person that someone's
showing an interest in them. Sothis is a skill that I've tried
to impress upon my younger kids,that trying to learn about other
people, that that really makes adifference, because I think for
littler kids in particular,they're more egocentric, which
(11:56):
is natural, but that's a skillto learn to show interest in
others. There's a new book outcalled talk by a professor at
Harvard. She's from the businessschool. I think her name's
Allison Brooks, and she talksabout how one of the many
lessons is about askingquestions, and how most people
worry they're asking too manyquestions. And the truth is,
it's very hard. I mean, they'vedone research on this, it's very
(12:19):
hard to actually reach thethreshold where you've asked too
many questions that actuallymost people ask less questions
than they think they are asking.
So don't be afraid to askquestions.
I do feel like we live in an agenow where people are shy or
maybe they don't want to seemlike they're prying. I think
people are so afraid to offendpeople these days, but I do
think that if you take aninterest in somebody, I think
(12:40):
that's a real positive thing todo,
yeah, and it's very noticeablewhen someone doesn't. So it's
very easy to notice when you'reout in a social setting and
you're asking all the questions,and then you leave that thing
and you're like, I don't thinkthey asked me one thing. It's
noticeable. And so you want tobe asking questions,
yes. So these are good tips. Sojust to kind of summarize so
far. So we've talked aboutmaking sure that you're the
(13:01):
initiator. Don't be afraid to goup to others and initiate the
friendship. Don't be afraid tocompliment them. Don't be afraid
to ask them questions even morethan you think. Just keep on
asking and show an interest. Iknow this is a topic we could
keep talking about all day, butany other big points that you
think we could offer as tips toparents to talk to their kids
aboutscheduling is the worst part of
friend making for kids andadults, being in an activity is
(13:25):
a positive thing. The reasonactivities can be a positive
thing is it takes the schedulingout of it. Now, your kid's going
to see somebody and have asocial experience, even if it's
while they're doing an activity,because it's already on the
schedule. You know, they have atennis drill every Tuesdays, and
those might not be their bestfriends, but it is exercising a
social muscle too, becauseusually kids activities are a
(13:45):
little more fun. There's somesocialization in it, but things
that are more group. So it's notthe worst thing to have some
kind of extracurricular activityfor your kid, because it's
something that they don't haveto worry about week to week. It
is on the schedule, it'shappening.
So you're saying that schedulingis a positive for children.
Well, I'm saying that schedulingsocial stuff is the hardest part
(14:09):
about keeping and makingfriends. Well, making first and
then keeping friends is because,first of all, you have to rely
on your parents a lot of timesto make plans for you when
you're younger, and it's veryhard for adults to even make
their own plans, and adults justhave a hard time with this. And
so when something's just on thecalendar, outside of you having
to make the schedule, it'salready on there. It's Mondays,
is tennis group or whatever itis, you at least know that your
(14:32):
kids having that social timethat day, because it's out of
your hands at this point, youhave decided it's on the family
calendar and it's happening.
These are great tips in terms ofinitiating friendships when it
comes to maintainingfriendships. Do you have any
general advice in that capacity?
Yeah, and I'm trying to decideif we're talking about the kids
doing things themselves, or howparents can help the kids. And I
(14:55):
think since parents are thelisteners, it's really how
parents can help the kids,what I'm. And I talk to parents,
their kids just aren't as socialanymore. They're at home more. I
don't know if it's the pandemic,I don't know if it's the phones
or all of the above, but a lotof kids are having struggles.
They don't have that manyfriends, and I think it's a
lonely world out there. And so Ithink what I'm trying to figure
(15:16):
out is, how can we parents helpour kids push beyond
that. Okay, I have a huge tip. Idivide the weekend up into four
social opportunities for kids.
Okay, so here's how I see it andhow it worked. At my house, you
could invite somebody over forour Friday Night Dinner. We
always have Friday Night Dinner,and the kids can have anyone
they want, and they just have tolet me know by Thursday. So I
(15:37):
make enough food, but that's oneopportunity. Saturday day is
another opportunity for us.
Religiously, they would have tohave someone over, like we're
not taking them anywhere, butthey can have anyone over, any
amount of kids over, that'sanother opportunity. Saturday
night is like a separate unit oftime, and then Sunday day, some
of my kids are more social thanothers, and because I think
(15:57):
having friends is so important,I really push this a lot that
you had to just fill one ofthose boxes, not all four,
though, that would be a lot ofpressure to tell a kid that they
need to be busy all weekend,Friday nights, Saturday
mornings, Saturday nights,Sundays. One of those four boxes
you had to check one, basically.
And so I would get off your caseif you told me as a teenager in
my house, if you're 14 years oldand you say, I need a ride to
(16:19):
the mall Sunday because I'mmeeting my friend. Great. I will
get off your case the rest ofthe weekend. Or what are you
doing Saturday night? Because Iactually think that can make
kids feel really bad if you'realways like I'm thinking
slightly older kids now, youknow, maybe 12, 1314, if you're
always saying to your kid, doyou have plans? Or have you
reached out to someone? I don'tpester them as long as they've
told me I have this one plan,but if it's Thursday or Friday
(16:42):
and I haven't heard about oneplan for the weekend, Hey, did
you consider reaching out to soand so we're available Sunday to
drive you somewhere if you want.
I think parents have to helpwith this and remind and
encourage in a positive way.
Encourage your kids to reach outand make plans. That's why I
talked about this at thebeginning, and it is really
really important. It's lowhanging fruit to do the online
(17:05):
stuff, and I think it's a littleeasier for parents too. They
don't have to drive their kidsanywhere. They don't have to
worry about they're feedingeverybody. But you gotta step it
up a little bit. You gotta helpyour kids, and you have to be
willing to host. If you arewilling to host and be the
hosting house, your kids will bebusy, and you have to have stuff
to do at your house that is notjust video games. I just had a
wonderful guest on my podcastnamed Catherine matrinko, and
(17:28):
she wrote a book calledchildhood unplugged. Her kids
are around your kids age, andshe talks a lot about being the
hosting house and having tons ofstuff for the kids to do outside
the house her kids, she has acouple boys that may be around
1516, she has lifting equipmentin the garage. She has stuff
that the kids want to do. Shehas some sort of rope thing in
(17:48):
the backyard, some ropes.
Course, they didn't do it all atonce. You know, over the years,
you kind of collect things anddevelop things, because it isn't
really fair to the kids to say,Get off your screen if there's
nothing for them to do. I thinkthis is such an important point,
because you're right. I thinkfor parents, it's really
important to recognize that wedo have to step it up a little
bit. And I'm guilty of thismyself. I'm a working mom. I
(18:09):
come home, I want to hang outwith my kids and I'm tired, but
we have to, I think, for ourchildren, for their development,
for their emotional well being,it's so important to make that
effort to help them be withtheir friends. Because my kids,
for example, they're not ofdriving age, so I have to be
there to assist. So you'retotally right, and I appreciate
(18:30):
you bringing up thatperspective.
And I would push it on your kidsas early as you can. Like,
meaning you're going to have todeal with other parents yourself
when they're younger. There's noway around it if you are going
to delay your kids getting aphone, which I highly recommend.
I assume you do too as apediatrician, like as late as
possible. But that does meanyou're gonna have to be involved
(18:51):
a little bit, but once they areable to communicate on their
own, to encourage the kids to doit, oh, reach out. You have to
say the words, reach out to soand so you had so much fun last
time. Why don't you see if hewants to come over and even with
my youngest, because now I'mmuch more experienced, I will
suggest to him, let's see if youcan go over there. I know that
seems like kind of rude, but Ilook, if we've had a kid a bunch
(19:12):
of times, instead of beatingaround the bush or hoping that
they'll invite back, just say,Oh, hey, can we come to your
house this time? And he'll doit, he'll text a friend and say,
Can I come over? Andthat's a good lesson in
friendship, too. I thinkreciprocity means a lot, and it
holds a lot of weight, becausenobody wants to feel like
they're doing all the work anddoing all the inviting. It feels
good to be askedback. Yes. Oh, by the way, I'm
glad you brought up reciprocity.
(19:33):
It's one of my biggest topicsthat comes up for adults.
Reciprocity is important, I saidearlier, to not keep score, to
teach kids that reciprocity isnot one for one, it's not I came
to your house now I go to yourhouse and then I go to my house
again, and then your houseagain. Some people just don't
like to have friends over, likeI said, maybe they're more
introverted, and they just don'thave the need as much to have a
(19:54):
friend. So unless someonereached out to them, they're
probably not going to reach out.
But if it's important to youand. Family to have these social
ties, you may just have to do alittle more. So it might be
three to one. I still considerthat reciprocal. They at least
did the one for the three, orthey answer back quickly, or
they're good listeners. And Iagree with who are doing this
one to one. Are alwaysdisappointed in friendship, kids
(20:15):
andadults. I completely agree with
that, and I relate to that. Ithink friends are good for
different reasons, and I thinkwhat's so much healthier is to
look to the good that they bringin your life. So maybe they're a
friend that has you over a lotfor dinner, but maybe they're a
friend that's a really goodlistener. Maybe they're a friend
that loves to go out you'regoing out. Friend to me,
friendships about the feeling.
(20:37):
Are you bringing joy to eachother's life? Are you adding
something to each other's life.
I hear from so many parents thatthey give up on the friendship
for the kids, because theyalways say, well, we've had so
and so over five times. They'venever had my kid over. I think
it's a mistake if your kidenjoys that kid, kid doesn't
enjoy that kid, okay, we couldprobably stop inviting that kid
(20:57):
over, but if your kid does, youare robbing your kid of a
friendship because you as theparent are upset that the other
parent doesn't have your socialskills, maybe, or has a lot on
their plate, has an extra job,has more kids than you have, has
a kid who's some kind of travelathlete, and they truly love
that you invite their kid over,but they're not home to ever
supervise your kid. There's justa lot of unknowns, and we get in
(21:21):
the way of our kids friendshipsby putting our own sort of
sensitivity and level of insultthat we have felt.
No, I think you're right. To me,the bottom line is, is this a
healthy friendship for my child?
And if the answer is yes, therest doesn't matter to me. Yes.
I like being the house where thekids come over because I like
seeing what's happening. I likebeing part of my kid's life. I'm
also happy when my kids go totheir friends houses, but I
(21:43):
agree with what you're sayingearlier about how you want to
make your house fun for thekids, beyond just screens. Yeah,
so this is something I'mconstantly working on.
Yes, it really is on theparents. If you don't want your
kids making tiktoks, 24/7, whenthey're hanging with friends, it
is not actually fair to say thatyou're a kid, if you have
nothing to do in your house, yougotta have stuff to do or let
(22:04):
them bite to the park, if you'renever going to let them out of
your sight. And then you alsoare saying to them in the same
breath, get off Tiktok. Okay.
Well, what else is there to doaround here? Do you ever put
your phone down? I know I soundvery like luxury right now, but
again, back to Catherine, therecent guest. She was quoting
Cal Newport, who's done a lot ofwonderful work on life off of a
screen and really managing yourscreen life. And he had a
(22:26):
expression, fix your analog lifefirst. And it's so important
that, and this is what we'retalking about, if you want
anyone to spend any time off ofa screen, it's will work better
if the things that they haveOffice screen exist. So that's
why they do some extracurricularactivities, or adults too. You
gotta have things to do,otherwise it's impossible to get
(22:48):
off your phone. Your phonesbecome your social life. Well,
of course, if you all of asudden put it down, you're gonna
be lonely if you haven't set upa system of life that exists off
the phone.
Yes, and this is also importantrole modeling for our own
children. What I'm havingdifficulty with my kids is, yes,
I want to be a good role modelfor them, and also when their
(23:10):
friends come over, what's trickyis their friends come over on
phones, and so this is somethingI'm trying to figure out how to
navigate, because I don't wantto embarrass my kids and tell
their friends, hey, do you mindin our home, we try not to look
at phones, or, I'm not sure if Ishould talk to their parents
first. I haven't quite found thesolution to this problem yet,
(23:30):
but I have noticed that the lastnumber of times my kids friends
have come over, they've been ontheir phones, and my kids feel
bad when they see their friendson Tiktok or on social media or
distracted by their phone,because I think that you see
someone else on the screen, thenyou think, Oh, I must not be
that interesting. Or what am Isupposed to do right now? Let me
pick up a phone as well.
Of course, adults do it too.
It's completely contagious. Itis
(23:54):
so that's, I don't know if youhad to deal with that with your
kids and their friends, butyeah, no,
we don't have phones on Fridaynights and Saturdays in our
house. But what helps with thatis that feels like a rule
outside of ourselves. So like,sometimes the kids will tell
their friends now, because theyour kids will be like, oh, you
know, we don't have phones onFriday nights. What they mean
is, in front of my parents,because I'm, you know, who knows
(24:17):
what my kids are doing behindclosed doors. They're much older
now, but they have gotten thememo. My kids and they, without
embarrassment, give it over totheir friends, like, oh, there's
no phones at the table Fridaynight. It's like this rule that
exists, like on high, evenhigher than us, that only helps
on a Friday or Saturday.
But at least you have someboundaries there. Just having 24
hours where kids can learn to bewithout digital devices, I think
(24:40):
is really healthy.
Yeah, every house reallystruggles with this. I will say,
just your house, your rules asyou think, you cannot really
police what happens at otherpeople's houses
though, your house, your rules.
I have to say one thing I'mreally proud of myself for is we
just got back from a vacationwith my sister's kids and my
parents and my daughter, she's14. She's the oldest of all the
cousins. There's nine cousins.
And she came on the trip, andshe did not bring her phone,
(25:02):
because we have a rule thatthere's no phones on trips. I
think it makes a difference,because she's more interested in
playing with her cousins, heryounger cousins.
This is actually really amazing,and you're so right about the
cousin thing, like we've seenthis too on family trips, the
second and older cousin isalways older cousin, right? At
some point transitions togetting a phone. That cousin's
gone. That cousin is like, notone of the kid cousins anymore.
(25:25):
It's really sadwhen she got a phone. That was
one of my fears, and I told her,I don't want you to be the
teenager off in the corner, gonefrom the party. So that is a
rule that we made in our house.
I'm happy that she's sticking toit. So so far. So yeah. So Okay,
another question, do you thinkthat the number of kids that are
together matters? Meaning, I wasalways told as a kid, be careful
(25:45):
with the number three, becausesomeone's going to be left out.
Is that something that parentsshould think about when we're
helping our kids make plans?
That's a really good question. Ijust did an episode on white
lotus, and people were so intothe friendship triangle in that
show. For listeners who haven'tseen it. That was one of many
big plot points that was inSocial Media Lab, these three
adult women who were childhoodfriends, and you're watching
(26:08):
their forever dynamic kind ofplay out. And my thesis there
was, three actually is not aproblem. No number is a problem.
It's the people themselves.
Three doesn't have to be aproblem. It can be but I
actually think three sometimesis better than two, because two
really puts a lot of pressure oneach person to bring a lot to
the table. Sometimes having thatthird person to bounce things
off of lightens the load foreverybody socially. But yeah,
(26:30):
numbers and friendship and kidsreally is an issue, only in that
kids really crave a group. Whenthey see other kids in a group,
the issue really is more liketeaching them to be satisfied
with a smaller number. That'swhere the number thing, I think,
comes into play with kids, isthat it's okay. And not only
okay, but research backs up thatjust having a few close friends
(26:53):
is all you need. Of course,social media, TV shows,
everything makes you want thisgroup. But anyone who's been in
a group, I mean, I've been ingroups, both as a kid as an
adult, knows that it's notalways what it looks like, and I
think that's helpful for kids toknow. I think that's a great
reminder my friend Stacymartinucci, she's a great friend
of mine from medical school.
She's now an OB GYN in NewJersey, but she used to tell me
(27:15):
her grandma gave her this greatadvice. She said, if you have
more close friends, and you cancount on one hand you have too
many good friends. And I alwaysthink about that, because I do
think nowadays people thinkabout, How many followers do you
have? How many friendships Doyou have? We're looking at big
numbers, and the big numbersaren't what matter. It really is
the quality.
(27:35):
Yeah, and that inner circle,that three to five really close
friends that you might have,they change over time. I think
it's another really importantmessage for kids and to model as
adults that it's totally normalfor those inner people to swap
in and out through time.
Yes, I agree. My best friend,his name is Greg. He doesn't
(27:56):
really listen to this podcast,but he's someone I talk to all
the time. We've been really dearfriends since I was 10 years
old. You know, we both hadfriends sort of come and go. And
he has a line, reason, seasonlife.
I mean, the words are mixed up alittle bit, season, reason or
lifetime, I think, but I don't.
People say it in very differentways. But yes, not all
friendships are meant to lastforever, and that doesn't mean
(28:16):
there's anything wrong with thefriendship and the bitterness
and hurt that I felt about thesenior year in high school, or
that she was sort of a foreverfriend that goes to me. I've
matured a lot on my feelings onthat since then. I was
devastated at the time, ofcourse, but I understand now as
an adult that that didn'tnecessarily have anything to do
(28:36):
with me, or even if it did,that's okay, like maybe it had
run its course, and she probablyin an abrupt way, unfortunately,
but fast forwarded somethingthat was going to happen anyway.
I just wasn't ready for it then.
But she wasn't wrong, that weweren't really the right match,
like that. Everything can lastforever. We change as people,
(28:57):
and you can always make newfriends. You're never too old,
it's never too late, and it'shealthy to allow new people into
your life as you change. Now Iagree that you can't have a
bazillion close, close friends,but you can have a wide social
network. It's good for you. It'shealthy.
Another point that is helpful totalk to kids about is how to
treat friends, even if you don'tthink the friendship is going to
(29:18):
last. For example, ghostingsomebody, I don't think is very
kind behavior. Yeah. What issome advice that you can give to
adults, for adults to talk tokids about in terms of how, if
you feel like you've outgrown afriendship, how can somebody
sort of move away from thatfriendship?
It is so hard. This is one ofthose topics where there is not
one right answer and there'sreally no great options. The
(29:41):
textbook thing would be to havea direct conversation and kindly
explain that you feel you'removing into different
directions. I've heard otherfriendship experts talk about
that. I agree that would bewonderful. I think that is very,
very hard. Doesn't mean itwouldn't be a nice thing, but I
think if my friend had donethat, for example, I would be.
Just as hurt who wants to sitdown and hear like the
(30:03):
friendships over, and if you'rereally so sure it's done, I
mean, are you inviting anopportunity for that friend to
give their plea for why itshouldn't be? That is one way.
So I'm just telling you what'sout there is that you can have a
direct but gentle conversationto explain that you're not going
to be as available and you'renot as interested. You don't
want to like be mean about it.
You can make it about you.
(30:25):
You're have other prioritiesright now. I don't think it
would be any easier to hear asthe
recipient. What it's like theold song, Breaking up is hard to
do. It is like a breakup.
There's a term called Quietquitting that kind of started in
the workplace, where maybepeople just weren't putting as
much of an effort into work.
They worked less hours. Theykind of just did the least in
their jobs. That expression isnow morphed into social context,
(30:47):
and people, when they talk aboutquiet quitting, they're talking
about friendships a lot, ordating, and that's somewhere
between ghosting and the directconversation. It's not abruptly
not texting back. It's nottexting back as often. It's not
being as available. This isprobably the most common way to
distance yourself from a friend,and it probably is the most
(31:08):
natural and maybe even thekindest, because I try to teach
my kids things don't have to beso black and white. You want to
be like best friends and thennot friends at all. Can there be
room in your life to seesomebody sometimes, maybe
they're not the person that youwant to have at your birthday
dinner if you're only havingfour people. But can you hang
out with them once in a while?
(31:31):
Can you text back and forth oncein a while? Can you send a funny
meme once in a while? It doesn'thave to be this formal breakup
all the time that, I think, isthe lesson that there is room in
life to not burn a bridge. Andactually, it's good advice to
not burn a bridge and to allowpeople to be in your life in
that in between gray and becomfortable with a little bit of
(31:51):
gray. And I think most of uswould probably prefer that on
the receiving end, but it takesa little discussion with your
kid, if your kids do one whowants some distance, and if
you're the kid who's on thereceiving end of someone who
doesn't respond as quicklyanymore, or doesn't invite you
over as much anymore,I think something like ghosting
feels very hurtful, becausenobody wants to feel ignored.
But I think if you can politelyrespond back, but maybe less
(32:14):
frequently, or maybe stopinviting them over as much, I
think that is helpful advice forkids they've had friends where
maybe they're not as excitedabout the friend, or maybe the
spark isn't quite there anymore.
And I think just pulling back alittle bit is like you said,
feels better to me. I thinkburning bridges is something
that you want to avoid, ifpossible, in life. And
(32:36):
if you go to school with thisperson, or you're on a team with
this person, I would reallyencourage the kids that they
will probably be on thereceiving end of something like
this at some time, and just tokeep it pleasant for everybody,
I think one of the hardestfriendship ending issues that
happens with kids is usuallythis is a very good topic, an
important one, I think, for yourlisteners, it's when the
(32:58):
children of adults who arefriends Don't really have
chemistry anymore, so youprobably got together when you
were young, like the parentswould get together, you would
invite them over, and you'd allbe together. And as the kids get
a little older, I think we seethis usually around, you know,
fourth grade, fifth grade socialgroup sector form, and maybe at
school, your best friend's kidis really in a different group.
(33:18):
That's tough, but kids have tohave the ability to choose their
own friends, that you cannotforce a friendship. So yes, you
can ask your kid to be kind, butat a certain point, this may be
a controversial thing to say. Idon't think it does kids any
favor if they're always invitedbecause the parents are doing
favors for each other. Really anissue. Jessica, this is the kid
(33:41):
who ends up being a sophomore inhigh school who doesn't have a
homecoming group. Why do theynot have a homecoming group?
Because everything they've everbeen invited to before was a
favor to their mom. You have torelease that kid earlier on so
that kid can actually find truefriends who they do have good
chemistry with, friends whoactually want them around, not
just because the mom stood overthem while they were texting to
(34:02):
say, You better invite so andso, because otherwise their
mom's gonna be so upset with me.
And this is where the quietquitting comes in. Maybe the
parents at some point need tohave a slightly more direct
conversation and say, We'regonna be friends no matter what.
I think that's a good point tobring up, that, yes, it's sort
of a bonus if our kids get alongwith our friends kids, but I
(34:22):
think a healthier, morerealistic perspective to help
our kids forge strongfriendships is to let them find
them on their own. And as youpointed out earlier, this is the
part that I'm really going totake from this interview in my
own life to really make surethat we are encouraging and
fostering those friendships andmaking an effort as parents to
help our kids form thosefriendships,
(34:42):
yeah, and give over the messagethat it's in your hands, your
social life is in your hands.
You make the plans, and youthink about, who do you like,
Who do you feel good around, andreach out to those people. But
that's why, yeah, it doesn't doa favor. Do you see what I'm
saying? Like, how it happens? Itreally, I think, damages the
other. Kid, you think you'redoing your friend a favor, and
adults are guilty of callingeach other and saying, Oh, could
(35:04):
you make sure so and so isincluded in homecoming? I keep
using homecoming because it'sthinking about a big group.
Okay, sure, maybe we can do thatfor ninth grade. But at what
point are you going to make itokay for your kid to not be
included, so that they have theopportunity, like they sometimes
have to be set free, so thatthey can be encouraged to find
realfriends. Now, kids inevitably
(35:26):
will fight with their friends.
They'll get into an argument.
How should parents, in yourmind, help our kids navigate
through conflict? Like, do youhave any general advice that we
can offer our kids? Is it justto be a good listener. Is it to
help our kids stand in theirshoes? Are there some general
tips and guidelines that youthink about when it comes to
(35:47):
conflict? Yeah, and it's allthings adults need to do a
better job as well. We don'tactually know what anyone else
is thinking, so the story wetell ourselves about what our
friend is thinking is reallyjust a story we're telling
ourselves, just like no oneknows what we're thinking. And
so I really would encourage yourkid to give the other kid as
much of a break as they givethemselves. Meaning, we make
(36:10):
mistakes. We all make mistakes,but we know why we made them.
Like we know that we saidsomething not that nice at lunch
because we were hungry and wegot a really bad grade in our
test the period before, andthat's why we said something
kind of nasty. It's like, whatif we could give the next person
as much of a break as we giveourselves, and that most people
(36:31):
deserve forgiveness, like we allmess up. So if you're upset with
a friend, it is good to expressit, but not with assumptions.
That's what I'm saying not toalready assume that you know
they did and some things areworth letting go, like, just
like we're saying we people dothings, and it's not always
personal. If it's a repetitivething, somebody's always nasty
to you at lunch and you don'tknow why they're picking on you,
(36:54):
okay, well now that's adifferent thing than they said
something one time. So what I'msaying is help your kid know
when to let something go andwhen to actually bring it up
with I statements, you know notyou are, but like I felt, and
then listen, let them talk, givethem the opportunity. It's a
gift. When you give your friendas an adult or a child, the
opportunity to explainthemselves, it shows you care
(37:15):
about the friendship like I careabout this friendship enough
that instead of me sulking overhere in the corner forever. I'm
going to give you theopportunity to just hear me out,
and I'm going to hear you out,but you can't do that for every
little thing. Part of gettingalong with people is allowing
for some room for mistakes,because you're going to want
that room too.
Totally agree with you. I think,yes, if you start to hear a
(37:37):
pattern from your child thatthere's a particular friend,
where there's a repeating theme,where maybe they're not nice, or
they're not acting kind, okay,maybe we don't have to encourage
that friendship, but if they'regenerally a good friend to your
child, I believe 100% in givingpeople grace, we don't know
what's happening in someone'slife. We don't know what's going
on in someone's mind. They mightinterpret something that your
(37:58):
child did in the wrong way. So Ithink that's such helpful life
advice for all of us. Quitefrankly, you never know what
it's like to stand in somebodyelse's shoes. And I think the
more we remember that, the moreyou forgive somebody, the easier
everything becomes.
Yeah, that's right. Don't holdpeople to impossible standards.
That's what it comes down andyour kids aren't perfect. Either
we can we're advising our kidson friendship. I think we should
(38:20):
remember that our kids are notperfect.
We are not perfect. They're notperfect. They have a lot of
growing to do. And I agree. I dothink sometimes, as parents, we
want to defend our kids all theway, but it's also important for
us to recognize that improvingis a good thing. Learning from
life experiences is going tobenefit them in the long run.
Yeah. So Nina, I've so enjoyedthis conversation. I think your
(38:42):
podcast is helping so manypeople. So thank you for the
work that you're doing. I thinkgetting advice about friendships
would benefit all of us. So telleverybody. Where can we find
you? Somy podcast is called Dear Nina
conversations about friendship,and I'm on Instagram and Tiktok
at dear Nina friendship. Andthen there's the newsletter
conversations about friendshipon substack.
(39:03):
Thank you so much, Nina, it'sbeen really a joy. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. Thankyou for listening, and I hope
you enjoyed this week's episodeof your child is normal. Also,
if you could take a moment andleave a five star review
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica, see
you next Monday. You.
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