July 28, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode of Your Child is Normal, Dr. Jessica Hochman is joined by Dr. Tara McCannel—retinal surgeon, ocular oncologist, and co-founder of Seyhart Acupuncture in Santa Monica, California. They discuss how acupuncture can be a powerful, evidence-informed, and low-risk option to support anxiety—especially in children who present with physical symptoms like headaches, stomach aches, or sleep disturbances. Whether you're a parent seeking alternatives to medication, or simply curious about the science behind acupuncture, this episode is full of practical insights and thoughtful reflection.
Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.
For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com
-For a plant-based, USDA Organic certified vitamin supplement, check out : Llama Naturals Vitamin and use discount code: DRJESSICA20
-To test your child's microbiome and get recommendations, check out:
Tiny Health using code: DRJESSICA
Do you have a future topic you'd like Dr Jessica Hochman to discuss? Email Dr Jessica Hochman askdrjessicamd@gmail.com.
The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to your child is
(00:02):
normal. I'm your host. DrJessica Hochman, so anxiety is
one of the most common concernsthat I see in kids, and parents
often ask me about optionsbeyond medication or traditional
therapy. So that's why I'mexcited to talk today about a
gentle evidence, informed toolthat might not be on your radar,
acupuncture. My guest today isDr Tara McConnell. She's a
retinal surgeon who made athoughtful pivot into holistic
(00:23):
healing. She and her husband nowco run say heart acupuncture in
Santa Monica, California, wherethey help both kids and adults
manage their anxiety throughMind Body Care. Today, we're
going to talk about the sciencebehind how acupuncture is
thought to work, what a sessionlooks like for children, and why
it can be especially helpful forkids who struggle with sleep,
stomach aches, headaches or anyother physical symptoms that are
(00:44):
tied to anxiety. Thank you somuch for listening, and if
you're enjoying this podcast,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a five star reviewwherever it is you listen to
podcasts now, let's get started.
Dr Taryn mccannel, thank you somuch for being here to have this
conversation. I'm so lookingforward to learning from you and
talkingwith you. Thank you, Jessica,
this has been awesome.
So tell everybody you're adoctor. Your husband's a doctor.
(01:08):
You guys are very highly trainedophthalmologists dealing with
cancer, dealing with neurologicissues and dealing with the eye.
And now you also have a new sidehobby, correct?
Yes. So you know, when you're inmedicine and years go by, you
start to really focus much lessso on the technical things and
(01:28):
the procedures. And it's reallyfor myself anyway, it's more
about getting connected withpatients and understanding how
we're really helping them. Andwhen you are in a field of
oncology and you're talking lifeand death with your patients.
The real key things of what'simportant about how our doctors
really came out, for me, andwhat I've learned is that it's
(01:49):
how we help our patients thatallow them to thrive and do
really well. And one of thethings that I've learned and had
some exposure to is sort of thisapproach of incorporating
complementary medicine, becauseI've realized that, you know, we
know so very little in westernmedicine. We don't understand
why certain diseases happen. Wehave a good understanding of
(02:10):
what we've looked at in thebody, but there's so much that
we're missing. I've learned thatit's important to really embrace
everything, especially mentaland emotional health and this
mind body connection, which Ifeel as an ophthalmologist, we
don't really look beyond theeyeball. Sometimes we look in
the body, because there's someconnections, but we don't think
about mental, emotional healthas important things that we can
(02:35):
guide patients in to really dotheir best. And so a few years
ago, my husband and I decided toopen an acupuncture, holistic
healing studio. And so a lot ofthis is is taken time to curate,
but it's very important if we'regoing to offer something to help
people, it needs to be vetted,it needs to be trusted, it needs
(02:57):
to be backed in science. Sothat's what say. Heart
acupuncture for anxiety is allabout and definitely, you know,
in our journey as businessowners and understanding this
area, it has become moreapparent than ever that mental
and emotional health is behindmost of our problems. And so you
know, this is a way to harnessthe whole body and help support
(03:19):
mental emotional health toimprove physical ailments and
many other conditions thatacupuncture can help.
I love that you're combiningeastern and western medicine. I
think there's a desire to learnmore about Eastern medicine.
It's been around for 1000s ofyears, and clearly it's
persisted for a reason. But Ithink that you and your husband
are so interesting to me. Youseem like such unicorns because
(03:40):
the stereotype of surgeons isthat, you know, if you give
someone a nail, they have ahammer that you're looking at
the one body part, and you'vebeen trained to think about so I
find it so commendable, to behonest, that you're able to step
back and look at the biggerpicture.
Yeah, thank you so much. Youknow, I think it's as we go
through our careers, we alwayshave to stop and reassess and
say what's happening. And youknow, once you've finished
(04:02):
learning the voluminous amountof information and become
skilled at what you're doing, Ithink it's really important to
keep asking questions and beingable to really reflect on what
are we doing in life, and howare we helping people? I mean, I
think we all want to do thingsthat are meaningful, and I've
had a chance to do a lot ofreflection and thinking about
what I really want to do, and Ithink it's important for all of
(04:24):
us who are busy to pause,reflect and ask those questions,
to make sure that you'reyourself fulfilled.
I completely agree. I think whenyou're doing something to help
somebody else in life, whateverthat may be, I think that's when
you feel your best. So I thinkthat's such a noble mission that
you have, I agree. How did youget exposed to acupuncture in
the firstplace? The very first time I had
(04:46):
acupuncture was when my firstborn was not turned properly
towards the end of pregnancy,and he was sort of upside down.
And they said, well. You canjust sort of monitor. You can
sit on a ball for a while, oryou can try acupuncture. And I
was thinking, Well, yeah, I'mgoing to try everything, because
(05:06):
I don't want to breach delivery.
I want things to be as smooth aspossible. So, like, I'll lay
down on a table and you putneedles and do whatever. So
that's my first time havingacupuncture. It's funny, the
acupuncturist has become a dearfriend, and she's somebody that
has we've reached out to to giveus a lot of advice on our
mission with our own acupuncturestudio. I mean, you just it's so
(05:27):
relaxing. I had no idea you laythere, needles go in, and lights
are dimmed, you can't goanywhere, and can't really move
your body, and you just leteverything happen. And I
remember feeling incrediblyrelaxed. I didn't really have
any concept of what washappening inside, but I was just
so relaxed. It was a wonderfulthing. And I looked forward to
(05:49):
going, because I have had thiscomplete relaxation. And that
was the very beginning. Afterthat, I did not go regularly to
acupuncture, but I stumbledacross acupuncture in my
workplace, and got a chance todo some programs with the Center
for East West Medicine at UCLA,and I met acupuncturist there,
and I started to be involved insome programs. And really was
(06:13):
impressed with how helpfulacupuncture was for my own
patients. So I suddenly thoughtwe got to do all these things
because we think we understandin western medicine, and just
because we think we understandeverything, we kind of don't
look for other possibilities.
And I think being curious andnoticing how people are
benefiting, we have to do this.
(06:33):
And so that's kind of howacupuncture came into my life.
I think this is reallyfascinating, what you're
exploring, and I'm so happy forpeople to know more about this,
because I have to say, as apediatrician, anxiety is by far
and away one of the most commonconcerns that parents experience
with their own kids, and theywant to help their kids, and
(06:54):
they don't necessarily want toput them on a medication, they
don't necessarily want to sendthem to therapy. Maybe it's too
expensive, maybe it's too timeconsuming, whatever the reason
may be. So I think it's reallynice for people to know that
there are other options outthere.
Yeah, I think, you know, when wethink of whole body approaches,
acupuncture is one of thosethings that can be incorporated
(07:17):
into your daily life. Andcertainly when we we see a lot
of adults, and when people comeregularly, like, you know, once
every couple weeks or once amonth, and they just have a
standing session where they justhave everything reset. I mean,
these are the people who havethe most benefit in our children
that we see. A lot of kids comein for anxiety, and I think
(07:40):
anxiety presents itself inphysical manifestations, for
example, kids that are havingtrouble sleeping or have a lot
of stomach aches or havepersistent headaches, yet
nothing is really wrong. And Ithink these are important signs
for parents to be aware of,because it might not necessarily
mean that they need to be put onantibiotics or treated with
(08:01):
medications for the headache,they need to be aware of the
possibility that this could bemanifestations of anxiety and
feeling overwhelmed. I find thatfor children, I don't think it's
it's natural to think thatthey're, they're going to
actually tell us that they'refeeling anxious. We have to look
carefully in their behaviors.
And you know, when thepediatrician feels that the
patient is physically healthy,but these symptoms persist. You
(08:22):
know, this is the perfectopportunity to introduce another
therapy that is very safe, thatdoesn't involve pharmaceuticals.
You know, acupuncture isactually becoming more popular,
and I think a lot of that isbecause people are understanding
the benefit of complementaryapproaches. And you know, I
think more and more we knowpeople are learning about their
(08:43):
health conditions looking atother options. It's certainly
not a replacement for yourregular medical care, but once
everything has been addressedand you still have symptoms,
it's a great way to supplementhealing and recovery.
I completely agree. I thinkthere are definitely a lot of
parents that feel torn betweenwanting to jump straight to
(09:06):
therapy or medication, andthey're looking for a gentler
bridge. They want to beproactive, but they don't want
to be too invasive, and soacupuncture seems like a really
nice avenue to be aware of. AndI completely agree with you that
I've met countless childrenwhere they've had persistent
headaches, they're havingdifficulty sleeping, they have
chronic stomach aches, they havephysical symptoms that the
(09:28):
parents can't point their fingerto. What is the root cause of
these chronic symptoms? And it'sinteresting that kids often
can't verbalize why they'refeeling what they're feeling.
And then, as they get older,they look back and reflect, and
they go, Oh, I was just reallyanxious. You know, I was really
nervous about starting middleschool, and I had terrible
stomach aches, and it wasanxiety. And I think I
(09:50):
appreciate you bringing up thepoint that anxiety in children
can manifest as physicalsymptoms, so I think that's a
very important thing for parentsto be aware of
absolutely and you. Know Whenparents sort of understand that
acupuncture really helps,because it does stimulate and
encourage the parasympatheticnervous system. It works great.
Parents want to combinetherapies. We have patients who
(10:13):
have a therapist and haveacupuncture. You know, as a
parent myself, I want to figureout all the avenues that I can
help them. Certainly, if you'rein a very severe state, you need
to see a psychiatrist, andprobably medications would be
helpful to temporize things. ButI find that most children and
adolescents have very low levelsthat sort of are in the
(10:34):
background that don'tnecessarily qualify for heavy
handed treatment and as apreventive method, acupuncture
is a very gentle, consistenttreatment that is accepted now
that I think most kids andfamilies don't feel hesitant
about incorporating acomplementary approach. And, you
know, I'm all for Westernmedicine, but a lot of kids get
(10:54):
put on medications very fastbefore really looking at
underlying causes. And I reallybelieve that acupuncture can
help people in this way, becauseit's very gentle, it's very
holistic, we often find childrenhave a faster response to
acupuncture than grown ups do.
And whether that's becausethey're just a little more
neuroplastic, they're in atransition. There's a lot of
(11:16):
growth happening, whereas adultswere very kind of set and
settled, and there's slowergrowth. Children respond very
well to acupuncture, and weoften see things that are
indirect signs of improvement.
Parents will say that theirchild is sleeping better and
seems more focused since they'vebeen doing the acupuncture. So
there's a lot of other benefitsthat can happen when we go to
(11:39):
the root of theproblem. So for people that are
listening and they think, okay,acupuncture, this sounds like
something that I'm interested intrying. Can you explain for
people that aren't familiar,what is acupuncture exactly, and
how do we think it works on thebody?
Yeah, that's a great question,and a question I think it's
important for people tounderstand. So, you know,
there's two ways to look at howacupuncture works. One is sort
(12:00):
of the traditional Chinesemedicine approach, where you
know, for 1000s of years,acupuncture, the meridians that
are used sort of the connectionsin the body, how the brain is
connected to the liver and howthe organs are connected along
these energy channels. Intraditional Chinese medicine,
everything your body, life, theuniverse is all connected by
(12:23):
energy, and this energy iscalled Chi, which is spelled Q,
I, but it means life force. Andthere's all this energy flowing
all around us, in ourenvironment, in us and through
us. And how Chinese medicinebelieves acupuncture works, is
by moving that energy so itenhances energy flow. And a lot
(12:45):
of times in Chinese medicine,when people have ailments, it's
because of energy stagnation andpeople are stuck. I can relate
when I think about if you feelkind of stuck and you're going
nowhere, and you're kind oflike, down, and you have
acupuncture kind of helps movethe energy stimulate. And in
Chinese medicine, a lot ofphysical ailments are because of
stagnation. If you havestiffness and soreness, you want
(13:07):
to move that energy to have itflow more freely and sort of
relieve you of some of thephysical effects of what's
happening in your body. And soChinese medicine is very
different than Western medicine,because it believes that this is
at the core of everything. Inwestern medicine, we have all of
our separate organs. We eachorgan has its own set of
diseases, and we don't reallythink of everything working
(13:29):
together. And a lot of times inwestern medicine, a person will
have a doctor for every organ,body part. And in Chinese
medicine, it's sort of moreblended. And so Chinese medicine
really addresses sort of theroot of issues, and because it's
energy affecting the whole body,there's a lot of Mind Body
connections. And in Chinesemedicine, a lot of physical
(13:50):
ailments originate withblockages in your mind, in
mental health. Now, as a Westernphysician trained in
conservative approaches, I alsowant to understand how that may
work in, you know, sort of morecontemporary Western ideology.
And so what happens inacupuncture? And there's been a
lot of research on how thisworks, but when the needles are
(14:12):
inserted into specific points,it stimulates our peripheral
nerves, which then sends signalsto the brain, the brain starts
to activate areas involved inneurotransmitter release, and we
see hormones, differentendorphins, Serotonins, get
released in the body as a resultof needle stimulation. And there
(14:36):
have been functional MRIstudies. So you have
acupuncture, and they do a scanof parts of your brain, and they
have found that areas whereemotional regulation occur light
up with acupuncture. We knowthat acupuncture also helps to
support our parasympatheticnervous system, and as you know,
(14:56):
our autonomic nervous system issort of the background of how.
Our bodies are regulated. Ithappens subconsciously, but it's
primarily made up of oursympathetics, which is the
fight, flight, freeze response,and the opposite, which is the
parasympathetics, more rest anddigest. The effect of
acupuncture needles actuallystimulates the parasympathetic
(15:17):
nervous system and it encouragesmore sort of calming, it
releases chemicals that areinvolved in sort of reducing and
regulating our cortisol. So whenpeople have acupuncture, their
cortisol levels, which is one ofthe key stress hormones, there's
actually reduced levels of thisin the body. So when we're
(15:38):
stressed, the hormone cortisolactually increases in our
bodies. Persistently elevatedcortisol over time, can be
harmful for our immune systems.
So in the setting of anxiety,acupuncture is really helpful
because it actually can helpreset this background nervous
system response by encouragingparasympathetics and resulting
in more calming symptoms. A lotof treatments for anxiety don't
(16:02):
necessarily go that deep, and Ifeel that when you include
acupuncture as a treatmentmodality for anxiety, we also
are helping to reset thesechronic stress responses, where
kids may have chronicsympathetic overdrive and
they're constantly anxious.
Acupuncture helps undo some ofthat and shift to the more rest
(16:25):
and digest nervous system. And Ithink if we think of improving
anxiety through resetting ournervous systems, that is really
the key to help kids and adultsfunction
better. As you're talking, I'minterested. I'm thinking, I
would love to do somethingwhere, without taking a
medication, I could train mynervous system to reduce my
(16:45):
cortisol levels or my stresshormone it really sounds like a
fantastic experience.
It is truly a wonderfulexperience, and it's just a very
relaxing and calming experience.
Can you describe what a typicalacupuncture session for a child
would look like? What is thesetting like? How long does it
take? How many needles areinvolved? Can you paint a
picture of what it would looklike?
(17:07):
Yes, definitely. And beforegoing into sort of what the
physical experience is like, Ijust want to touch on a fear
that a lot of people have withneedles. And I do believe that
one of the barriers to having alot of children benefit from
acupuncture for anxiety is thisidea that, Oh, my child is not
(17:27):
going to they're not going totolerate the needles. Needles
are painful. I don't likeneedles. So a couple years ago,
there was a self reported studyout of University of Southern
California at USC, where theybecause they knew that this was
a problem that a lot of parentswouldn't even consider
acupuncture for children. Sothey looked at a group of over
(17:48):
200 children between the ages ofeight and 21 and did self
reported surveys on what theirexperience was like with the
needles. And they found that thepain score, and we talk about
pain, one through 10, on averagewas 1.3 so that means most of
the people had barely anynoticeable pain with the
(18:09):
needles. And they also asked thekids, did you have any
discomfort? Almost 60% of thekids said they didn't really
feel anything with the needles.
So to me, that's like, Okay,this is how really comfortable
it is. There's really nothing tobe afraid of, and knowing that
it is going to be verycomfortable. And not only that,
the children felt that theiranxiety improved, they felt
(18:32):
relaxed. And the majority of thekids in the study looked forward
to coming back and having asession. So I want to paint that
as the start, because I feellike a lot of people just don't
go past even coming into thedoors of an acupuncture place
because of these ideas. So thisactually has been studied, and
it's really a wonderfulexperience for kids. You know,
(18:53):
one way that we start justbecause of this needle idea, we
can start with acupressure, andAcupressure is really intense
pressure, instead of the needlesat acupuncture points, so you're
still stimulating thosemeridians and still having an
effect. But it's a little lessscary for children, and
oftentimes we start withacupressure techniques. Also,
(19:15):
children can have ear seating,which is putting little stickers
and pressure points on the earsto complement other acupuncture
and ear seating helps stimulatethe vagus nerve, which is the
largest parasympathetic nerve inthe body. So it's an amazing
adjunct to having acupuncturebecause it also prolongs the
effect of the needles. So just asession for a child, usually,
(19:37):
children don't need as longsessions as adults. Most of our
children's sessions are 25minutes, and our acupuncturists
at our center are highlytrained. They are very used to
children and pediatrics, sothat's really important as well.
So there's various types ofneedles, but we use the finest
needles on the children and. Weactually don't have to go very
(20:00):
deep. When we think of needles,we think, Oh, they're going deep
into my body. They might even goin like, a quarter of an inch,
maybe the thickness of yourfingernail. So they don't have
to go very deep. And the needlesdon't have to be in for very
long. And for children, we don'tactually have to use as many
needles. So a person might havefive to 10 needles, for example,
and the experience is a lot lessthan when you think about if
(20:23):
you've ever had acupuncture asan adult, children don't need as
much, and we see benefit andturnaround much faster as well.
So kids, even after one session,may notice some improvements.
What we found, and certainly inthe literature, the more times
people come, the better theeffect. And we often recommend
starting off with maybe four tosix sessions, and then depending
(20:47):
on the child, sometimes justmaintenance sessions, maybe once
or twice a month might be allthat kids need.
Is there a certain type ofanxiety that you find
acupuncture to benefit the most.
For example, kids with sleepissues, social anxiety,
generalized anxiety. Is there acertain candidate that you think
would benefit the most fromacupuncture?
(21:11):
Well, you know, you mentionedall those conditions, and all of
those would really benefit fromacupuncture, because they're all
tied together. Acupuncture canreally help. We talked about
resetting the nervous system.
All of those conditions havesome root in
anxiety. Do you tell a child whythey're going? In other words,
does it help to go in withintention?
Well, I feel like it would besimilar to say, if you're taking
(21:34):
your child to a therapist oryou're going to a doctor, you
can say, you know, we reallywant to help you, and we want to
help you sort of feel better,and we want to figure out all
sorts of ways that we can helpyour body improve so that you
can do better. And I feel likejust sort of being open about
we're going to take all thesedifferent approaches. You've
(21:55):
seen the doctor, we have someoneyou could talk to, and then
we're bringing you to a placewhere we're going to help, kind
of help your nervous system. AndI think it's a good idea to
just, you know, talk about thisis helping your nervous system.
It helps you relax. And even ifyou don't say that, children
will often feel very relaxedafter so just pointing out that
it's part of the package ofthings that we're going to do to
(22:18):
help you be your best. I thinkthat really helps.
Are there any side effects thatparents should be aware
of? The side effects ofacupuncture are very minimal.
Rarely, we might get a littlebruising at a needle site.
Sometimes the skin might look alittle red after and just so
that you know your audienceknows when we do acupuncture,
(22:40):
all the needles are disposable.
Once a needle is used, it'stossed. I mean, there have been
very rare reports of peoplegetting infections with
acupuncture, but it isincredibly safe, and the risks
of getting a little bit ofbruising or even a little
bleeding, like they almost neverhappen. So we just don't see
that in people.
One of my favorite aspects ofacupuncture is that the side
(23:01):
effect profile is so so so low,because there are so many things
that we do in medicine that dohave side effects. So I'm so in
favor of considering acupuncturefor whatever modality it may
benefit, because the side effectprofile is so favorable.
And that's the beauty of this isnot only does it have so few
side effects, you can use ittogether with whatever you're
(23:23):
working on to try to be in abetter place.
Yeah, it seems to me, it's oneof these situations where
there's really nothing to lose,especially if you're looking for
a way to feel better, why notgive acupuncture a try? Yeah,
totally agree. Now you may nothave an answer to this, but have
there been any studies that haveshown that acupuncture benefits
kids with anxiety.
(23:43):
Yes, probably the best study waspublished in 2018 and it was
performed out of the Universityof Calgary in Alberta, Canada.
They looked at children andadolescents who had a diagnosis
of generalized anxiety disorder.
It was a randomized pilot, whichmeans that it wasn't like
hundreds and hundreds ofpatients. There's only 20
(24:04):
patients that they did thisstudy on, and they found
significant improvement inanxiety. They did a lot of
scores to see how people feltafterwards, and it significantly
improved symptoms of generalizedanxiety disorder. There have
been other studies that havethere have been some meta
analysis looking at reviews, andas you can imagine, there's not
(24:24):
a lot of data and literature inthe area of Pediatrics, anxiety
and acupuncture use. Butindirectly, there have been
studies looking at children andways to resolve headache in
children. A lot of times, theheadache may not have a
physiologic source. In thisstudy, a significant portion of
patients were under the age of24 and they noticed that with
(24:46):
acupuncture for headaches, itactually reduced anxiety
symptoms as well. There's also astudy that came out of China
that looked at children who bitetheir nails when they combined
action. Acupuncture with thehabit reversing tips that they
used, it resulted in asignificant reduction in nail
biting. So this is, I mean,these are sort of indirect
(25:08):
studies that have been performedin children and adolescents that
show benefit. And I think that,you know, there's definitely the
reduction in anxiety, intreating chronic pain in
children. We have those thatdata doesn't it looks like
chronic pain, but maybe notnecessarily anxiety directly,
but there's a lot of overlap inthese studies, and I think that
(25:29):
to me, that's plenty to convinceme that this is a great modality
to add when we're trying to helpour kids with anxiety.
Absolutely. And in preparationfor this, I was actually looking
up the studies to see if there'sanything supporting acupuncture,
and I also found a lot ofsmaller trials that showed
really promising results forkids that do acupuncture in
(25:51):
conjunction with CBT or therapy.
Oh, that looks very favorable,yeah.
And it's just like we talkedabout before, like there's no
one way to help your kid withanxiety. And you know, I
totally, I think CBT isfantastic, and I think that's a
real cornerstone in helping kidswith anxiety, especially higher
levels of anxiety. But I youknow, all these approaches are
(26:14):
necessary to help our kids.
Now, what is the youngest agekid that you will see at your
center?
We actually see neonates. We'vehad some really little kids. And
of course, our acupuncturiststend not to use needles in kids
that are like less than four orfive. They use more of the deep
(26:35):
kneading and little kids. Imean, you're probably wondering,
why would an almost newborn comein. But, you know, sometimes
parents bring in their babiesbecause of really excessive
crying. They seem really fussyin it maybe making the parent
feel anxious, and they'relooking at what sort of body
work techniques can help. And sotuina and a little Gua Sha,
(26:55):
which is like a gentle scrapingover the limbs that can be very
calming on babies. And so wehave seen parents bringing kids
who just cry a lot and just seemfussy. And so we see that the
very little end of the spectrum.
So there's definitely arange amazing. And in your
experience, are you getting goodfeedback from families where
they've noticed that theacupuncture has lessened the
(27:18):
child's anxiety?
Oh yes. I mean, kids will comefor a regular period of time,
and then we'll see them not needto come in that much. There's a
boy, actually, who had panicattacks, and after three or four
sessions, significant reductionin his panic attacks and and
sometimes when I'm at our centerand just chatting with clients
(27:40):
and people who are waiting to goin. I mean, I hear stories like
acupuncture turned my lifearound. I'm so grateful for what
you do here, and it just reallyinspires me to keep going with
this. We need people to learnthat there are incredible
avenues that are very safe, thatcan really support your mind,
body health. Yeah, no, I highlyencourage people who've never
(28:02):
tried it to just be really openminded and think of it as a body
reset, relaxation. And you gottacome in. You gotta return like
the people who have the bestresponses and do best, they
consistently come on a regularbasis and they see the
improvement. Andcan you tell us, what is the
cost of getting acupuncture? Ithink
(28:23):
the, you know, there's most ofthe acupuncturists that I know
and collaborate with are all outof network, which means it's out
of pocket. It's not covered byinsurance. However, we do
provide a super bill, and wefind that most of our clients
get about, you know, depends onyour insurance, but you can get
about 80% back. Most healthinsurance has allowances for a
(28:47):
certain number of acupuncturesessions per year, as well as
chiropractic and so, you know,in terms of cost, it can be, you
know, our very young children,where our our fees are less than
$100 it's much less when youhave a baby, and we're just
doing a very short session. Andthen, depending on how long the
sessions are, usually it'saround like $150 give or take,
(29:09):
depending on if you want to haveadditional things like ear
seating treatment or some GuaSha together with it. But I
think that the take home is thata lot of flexible health
spending, accounts and healthinsurance will reimburse. So
just make sure that you ask forthe super bill up front when you
can submit that to your healthinsurance. For
(29:29):
people that are interested andthey want to come see you and
they want to go to your center,where can they find you?
So our center, it's say, heartacupuncture for anxiety. That's
S, E, y, H, A, R T. We are inSanta Monica at the corner of 26
in Wilshire Boulevard. We thebest way to book appointments is
(29:50):
actually online on our website,which is say heart.com and we
would love to help yourchildren, Help yourselves. That.
That's what our mission is. Wewant to help people, mind, body
and spirit. Thank youfor your time. I've really
enjoyed this conversation.
Thank you so much. Dr, Jessica,really appreciate it.
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
(30:11):
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica, see
you next month.
Hi everyone, and welcome back to your child is
(00:02):
normal. I'm your host. DrJessica Hochman, so anxiety is
one of the most common concernsthat I see in kids, and parents
often ask me about optionsbeyond medication or traditional
therapy. So that's why I'mexcited to talk today about a
gentle evidence, informed toolthat might not be on your radar,
acupuncture. My guest today isDr Tara McConnell. She's a
retinal surgeon who made athoughtful pivot into holistic
(00:23):
healing. She and her husband nowco run say heart acupuncture in
Santa Monica, California, wherethey help both kids and adults
manage their anxiety throughMind Body Care. Today, we're
going to talk about the sciencebehind how acupuncture is
thought to work, what a sessionlooks like for children, and why
it can be especially helpful forkids who struggle with sleep,
stomach aches, headaches or anyother physical symptoms that are
(00:44):
tied to anxiety. Thank you somuch for listening, and if
you're enjoying this podcast,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a five star reviewwherever it is you listen to
podcasts now, let's get started.
Dr Taryn mccannel, thank you somuch for being here to have this
conversation. I'm so lookingforward to learning from you and
talkingwith you. Thank you, Jessica,
this has been awesome.
So tell everybody you're adoctor. Your husband's a doctor.
(01:08):
You guys are very highly trainedophthalmologists dealing with
cancer, dealing with neurologicissues and dealing with the eye.
And now you also have a new sidehobby, correct?
Yes. So you know, when you're inmedicine and years go by, you
start to really focus much lessso on the technical things and
(01:28):
the procedures. And it's reallyfor myself anyway, it's more
about getting connected withpatients and understanding how
we're really helping them. Andwhen you are in a field of
oncology and you're talking lifeand death with your patients.
The real key things of what'simportant about how our doctors
really came out, for me, andwhat I've learned is that it's
(01:49):
how we help our patients thatallow them to thrive and do
really well. And one of thethings that I've learned and had
some exposure to is sort of thisapproach of incorporating
complementary medicine, becauseI've realized that, you know, we
know so very little in westernmedicine. We don't understand
why certain diseases happen. Wehave a good understanding of
(02:10):
what we've looked at in thebody, but there's so much that
we're missing. I've learned thatit's important to really embrace
everything, especially mentaland emotional health and this
mind body connection, which Ifeel as an ophthalmologist, we
don't really look beyond theeyeball. Sometimes we look in
the body, because there's someconnections, but we don't think
about mental, emotional healthas important things that we can
(02:35):
guide patients in to really dotheir best. And so a few years
ago, my husband and I decided toopen an acupuncture, holistic
healing studio. And so a lot ofthis is is taken time to curate,
but it's very important if we'regoing to offer something to help
people, it needs to be vetted,it needs to be trusted, it needs
(02:57):
to be backed in science. Sothat's what say. Heart
acupuncture for anxiety is allabout and definitely, you know,
in our journey as businessowners and understanding this
area, it has become moreapparent than ever that mental
and emotional health is behindmost of our problems. And so you
know, this is a way to harnessthe whole body and help support
(03:19):
mental emotional health toimprove physical ailments and
many other conditions thatacupuncture can help.
I love that you're combiningeastern and western medicine. I
think there's a desire to learnmore about Eastern medicine.
It's been around for 1000s ofyears, and clearly it's
persisted for a reason. But Ithink that you and your husband
are so interesting to me. Youseem like such unicorns because
(03:40):
the stereotype of surgeons isthat, you know, if you give
someone a nail, they have ahammer that you're looking at
the one body part, and you'vebeen trained to think about so I
find it so commendable, to behonest, that you're able to step
back and look at the biggerpicture.
Yeah, thank you so much. Youknow, I think it's as we go
through our careers, we alwayshave to stop and reassess and
say what's happening. And youknow, once you've finished
(04:02):
learning the voluminous amountof information and become
skilled at what you're doing, Ithink it's really important to
keep asking questions and beingable to really reflect on what
are we doing in life, and howare we helping people? I mean, I
think we all want to do thingsthat are meaningful, and I've
had a chance to do a lot ofreflection and thinking about
what I really want to do, and Ithink it's important for all of
(04:24):
us who are busy to pause,reflect and ask those questions,
to make sure that you'reyourself fulfilled.
I completely agree. I think whenyou're doing something to help
somebody else in life, whateverthat may be, I think that's when
you feel your best. So I thinkthat's such a noble mission that
you have, I agree. How did youget exposed to acupuncture in
the firstplace? The very first time I had
(04:46):
acupuncture was when my firstborn was not turned properly
towards the end of pregnancy,and he was sort of upside down.
And they said, well. You canjust sort of monitor. You can
sit on a ball for a while, oryou can try acupuncture. And I
was thinking, Well, yeah, I'mgoing to try everything, because
(05:06):
I don't want to breach delivery.
I want things to be as smooth aspossible. So, like, I'll lay
down on a table and you putneedles and do whatever. So
that's my first time havingacupuncture. It's funny, the
acupuncturist has become a dearfriend, and she's somebody that
has we've reached out to to giveus a lot of advice on our
mission with our own acupuncturestudio. I mean, you just it's so
(05:27):
relaxing. I had no idea you laythere, needles go in, and lights
are dimmed, you can't goanywhere, and can't really move
your body, and you just leteverything happen. And I
remember feeling incrediblyrelaxed. I didn't really have
any concept of what washappening inside, but I was just
so relaxed. It was a wonderfulthing. And I looked forward to
(05:49):
going, because I have had thiscomplete relaxation. And that
was the very beginning. Afterthat, I did not go regularly to
acupuncture, but I stumbledacross acupuncture in my
workplace, and got a chance todo some programs with the Center
for East West Medicine at UCLA,and I met acupuncturist there,
and I started to be involved insome programs. And really was
(06:13):
impressed with how helpfulacupuncture was for my own
patients. So I suddenly thoughtwe got to do all these things
because we think we understandin western medicine, and just
because we think we understandeverything, we kind of don't
look for other possibilities.
And I think being curious andnoticing how people are
benefiting, we have to do this.
(06:33):
And so that's kind of howacupuncture came into my life.
I think this is reallyfascinating, what you're
exploring, and I'm so happy forpeople to know more about this,
because I have to say, as apediatrician, anxiety is by far
and away one of the most commonconcerns that parents experience
with their own kids, and theywant to help their kids, and
(06:54):
they don't necessarily want toput them on a medication, they
don't necessarily want to sendthem to therapy. Maybe it's too
expensive, maybe it's too timeconsuming, whatever the reason
may be. So I think it's reallynice for people to know that
there are other options outthere.
Yeah, I think, you know, when wethink of whole body approaches,
acupuncture is one of thosethings that can be incorporated
(07:17):
into your daily life. Andcertainly when we we see a lot
of adults, and when people comeregularly, like, you know, once
every couple weeks or once amonth, and they just have a
standing session where they justhave everything reset. I mean,
these are the people who havethe most benefit in our children
that we see. A lot of kids comein for anxiety, and I think
(07:40):
anxiety presents itself inphysical manifestations, for
example, kids that are havingtrouble sleeping or have a lot
of stomach aches or havepersistent headaches, yet
nothing is really wrong. And Ithink these are important signs
for parents to be aware of,because it might not necessarily
mean that they need to be put onantibiotics or treated with
(08:01):
medications for the headache,they need to be aware of the
possibility that this could bemanifestations of anxiety and
feeling overwhelmed. I find thatfor children, I don't think it's
it's natural to think thatthey're, they're going to
actually tell us that they'refeeling anxious. We have to look
carefully in their behaviors.
And you know, when thepediatrician feels that the
patient is physically healthy,but these symptoms persist. You
(08:22):
know, this is the perfectopportunity to introduce another
therapy that is very safe, thatdoesn't involve pharmaceuticals.
You know, acupuncture isactually becoming more popular,
and I think a lot of that isbecause people are understanding
the benefit of complementaryapproaches. And you know, I
think more and more we knowpeople are learning about their
(08:43):
health conditions looking atother options. It's certainly
not a replacement for yourregular medical care, but once
everything has been addressedand you still have symptoms,
it's a great way to supplementhealing and recovery.
I completely agree. I thinkthere are definitely a lot of
parents that feel torn betweenwanting to jump straight to
(09:06):
therapy or medication, andthey're looking for a gentler
bridge. They want to beproactive, but they don't want
to be too invasive, and soacupuncture seems like a really
nice avenue to be aware of. AndI completely agree with you that
I've met countless childrenwhere they've had persistent
headaches, they're havingdifficulty sleeping, they have
chronic stomach aches, they havephysical symptoms that the
(09:28):
parents can't point their fingerto. What is the root cause of
these chronic symptoms? And it'sinteresting that kids often
can't verbalize why they'refeeling what they're feeling.
And then, as they get older,they look back and reflect, and
they go, Oh, I was just reallyanxious. You know, I was really
nervous about starting middleschool, and I had terrible
stomach aches, and it wasanxiety. And I think I
(09:50):
appreciate you bringing up thepoint that anxiety in children
can manifest as physicalsymptoms, so I think that's a
very important thing for parentsto be aware of
absolutely and you. Know Whenparents sort of understand that
acupuncture really helps,because it does stimulate and
encourage the parasympatheticnervous system. It works great.
Parents want to combinetherapies. We have patients who
(10:13):
have a therapist and haveacupuncture. You know, as a
parent myself, I want to figureout all the avenues that I can
help them. Certainly, if you'rein a very severe state, you need
to see a psychiatrist, andprobably medications would be
helpful to temporize things. ButI find that most children and
adolescents have very low levelsthat sort of are in the
(10:34):
background that don'tnecessarily qualify for heavy
handed treatment and as apreventive method, acupuncture
is a very gentle, consistenttreatment that is accepted now
that I think most kids andfamilies don't feel hesitant
about incorporating acomplementary approach. And, you
know, I'm all for Westernmedicine, but a lot of kids get
(10:54):
put on medications very fastbefore really looking at
underlying causes. And I reallybelieve that acupuncture can
help people in this way, becauseit's very gentle, it's very
holistic, we often find childrenhave a faster response to
acupuncture than grown ups do.
And whether that's becausethey're just a little more
neuroplastic, they're in atransition. There's a lot of
(11:16):
growth happening, whereas adultswere very kind of set and
settled, and there's slowergrowth. Children respond very
well to acupuncture, and weoften see things that are
indirect signs of improvement.
Parents will say that theirchild is sleeping better and
seems more focused since they'vebeen doing the acupuncture. So
there's a lot of other benefitsthat can happen when we go to
(11:39):
the root of theproblem. So for people that are
listening and they think, okay,acupuncture, this sounds like
something that I'm interested intrying. Can you explain for
people that aren't familiar,what is acupuncture exactly, and
how do we think it works on thebody?
Yeah, that's a great question,and a question I think it's
important for people tounderstand. So, you know,
there's two ways to look at howacupuncture works. One is sort
(12:00):
of the traditional Chinesemedicine approach, where you
know, for 1000s of years,acupuncture, the meridians that
are used sort of the connectionsin the body, how the brain is
connected to the liver and howthe organs are connected along
these energy channels. Intraditional Chinese medicine,
everything your body, life, theuniverse is all connected by
(12:23):
energy, and this energy iscalled Chi, which is spelled Q,
I, but it means life force. Andthere's all this energy flowing
all around us, in ourenvironment, in us and through
us. And how Chinese medicinebelieves acupuncture works, is
by moving that energy so itenhances energy flow. And a lot
(12:45):
of times in Chinese medicine,when people have ailments, it's
because of energy stagnation andpeople are stuck. I can relate
when I think about if you feelkind of stuck and you're going
nowhere, and you're kind oflike, down, and you have
acupuncture kind of helps movethe energy stimulate. And in
Chinese medicine, a lot ofphysical ailments are because of
stagnation. If you havestiffness and soreness, you want
(13:07):
to move that energy to have itflow more freely and sort of
relieve you of some of thephysical effects of what's
happening in your body. And soChinese medicine is very
different than Western medicine,because it believes that this is
at the core of everything. Inwestern medicine, we have all of
our separate organs. We eachorgan has its own set of
diseases, and we don't reallythink of everything working
(13:29):
together. And a lot of times inwestern medicine, a person will
have a doctor for every organ,body part. And in Chinese
medicine, it's sort of moreblended. And so Chinese medicine
really addresses sort of theroot of issues, and because it's
energy affecting the whole body,there's a lot of Mind Body
connections. And in Chinesemedicine, a lot of physical
(13:50):
ailments originate withblockages in your mind, in
mental health. Now, as a Westernphysician trained in
conservative approaches, I alsowant to understand how that may
work in, you know, sort of morecontemporary Western ideology.
And so what happens inacupuncture? And there's been a
lot of research on how thisworks, but when the needles are
(14:12):
inserted into specific points,it stimulates our peripheral
nerves, which then sends signalsto the brain, the brain starts
to activate areas involved inneurotransmitter release, and we
see hormones, differentendorphins, Serotonins, get
released in the body as a resultof needle stimulation. And there
(14:36):
have been functional MRIstudies. So you have
acupuncture, and they do a scanof parts of your brain, and they
have found that areas whereemotional regulation occur light
up with acupuncture. We knowthat acupuncture also helps to
support our parasympatheticnervous system, and as you know,
(14:56):
our autonomic nervous system issort of the background of how.
Our bodies are regulated. Ithappens subconsciously, but it's
primarily made up of oursympathetics, which is the
fight, flight, freeze response,and the opposite, which is the
parasympathetics, more rest anddigest. The effect of
acupuncture needles actuallystimulates the parasympathetic
(15:17):
nervous system and it encouragesmore sort of calming, it
releases chemicals that areinvolved in sort of reducing and
regulating our cortisol. So whenpeople have acupuncture, their
cortisol levels, which is one ofthe key stress hormones, there's
actually reduced levels of thisin the body. So when we're
(15:38):
stressed, the hormone cortisolactually increases in our
bodies. Persistently elevatedcortisol over time, can be
harmful for our immune systems.
So in the setting of anxiety,acupuncture is really helpful
because it actually can helpreset this background nervous
system response by encouragingparasympathetics and resulting
in more calming symptoms. A lotof treatments for anxiety don't
(16:02):
necessarily go that deep, and Ifeel that when you include
acupuncture as a treatmentmodality for anxiety, we also
are helping to reset thesechronic stress responses, where
kids may have chronicsympathetic overdrive and
they're constantly anxious.
Acupuncture helps undo some ofthat and shift to the more rest
(16:25):
and digest nervous system. And Ithink if we think of improving
anxiety through resetting ournervous systems, that is really
the key to help kids and adultsfunction
better. As you're talking, I'minterested. I'm thinking, I
would love to do somethingwhere, without taking a
medication, I could train mynervous system to reduce my
(16:45):
cortisol levels or my stresshormone it really sounds like a
fantastic experience.
It is truly a wonderfulexperience, and it's just a very
relaxing and calming experience.
Can you describe what a typicalacupuncture session for a child
would look like? What is thesetting like? How long does it
take? How many needles areinvolved? Can you paint a
picture of what it would looklike?
(17:07):
Yes, definitely. And beforegoing into sort of what the
physical experience is like, Ijust want to touch on a fear
that a lot of people have withneedles. And I do believe that
one of the barriers to having alot of children benefit from
acupuncture for anxiety is thisidea that, Oh, my child is not
(17:27):
going to they're not going totolerate the needles. Needles
are painful. I don't likeneedles. So a couple years ago,
there was a self reported studyout of University of Southern
California at USC, where theybecause they knew that this was
a problem that a lot of parentswouldn't even consider
acupuncture for children. Sothey looked at a group of over
(17:48):
200 children between the ages ofeight and 21 and did self
reported surveys on what theirexperience was like with the
needles. And they found that thepain score, and we talk about
pain, one through 10, on averagewas 1.3 so that means most of
the people had barely anynoticeable pain with the
(18:09):
needles. And they also asked thekids, did you have any
discomfort? Almost 60% of thekids said they didn't really
feel anything with the needles.
So to me, that's like, Okay,this is how really comfortable
it is. There's really nothing tobe afraid of, and knowing that
it is going to be verycomfortable. And not only that,
the children felt that theiranxiety improved, they felt
(18:32):
relaxed. And the majority of thekids in the study looked forward
to coming back and having asession. So I want to paint that
as the start, because I feellike a lot of people just don't
go past even coming into thedoors of an acupuncture place
because of these ideas. So thisactually has been studied, and
it's really a wonderfulexperience for kids. You know,
(18:53):
one way that we start justbecause of this needle idea, we
can start with acupressure, andAcupressure is really intense
pressure, instead of the needlesat acupuncture points, so you're
still stimulating thosemeridians and still having an
effect. But it's a little lessscary for children, and
oftentimes we start withacupressure techniques. Also,
(19:15):
children can have ear seating,which is putting little stickers
and pressure points on the earsto complement other acupuncture
and ear seating helps stimulatethe vagus nerve, which is the
largest parasympathetic nerve inthe body. So it's an amazing
adjunct to having acupuncturebecause it also prolongs the
effect of the needles. So just asession for a child, usually,
(19:37):
children don't need as longsessions as adults. Most of our
children's sessions are 25minutes, and our acupuncturists
at our center are highlytrained. They are very used to
children and pediatrics, sothat's really important as well.
So there's various types ofneedles, but we use the finest
needles on the children and. Weactually don't have to go very
(20:00):
deep. When we think of needles,we think, Oh, they're going deep
into my body. They might even goin like, a quarter of an inch,
maybe the thickness of yourfingernail. So they don't have
to go very deep. And the needlesdon't have to be in for very
long. And for children, we don'tactually have to use as many
needles. So a person might havefive to 10 needles, for example,
and the experience is a lot lessthan when you think about if
(20:23):
you've ever had acupuncture asan adult, children don't need as
much, and we see benefit andturnaround much faster as well.
So kids, even after one session,may notice some improvements.
What we found, and certainly inthe literature, the more times
people come, the better theeffect. And we often recommend
starting off with maybe four tosix sessions, and then depending
(20:47):
on the child, sometimes justmaintenance sessions, maybe once
or twice a month might be allthat kids need.
Is there a certain type ofanxiety that you find
acupuncture to benefit the most.
For example, kids with sleepissues, social anxiety,
generalized anxiety. Is there acertain candidate that you think
would benefit the most fromacupuncture?
(21:11):
Well, you know, you mentionedall those conditions, and all of
those would really benefit fromacupuncture, because they're all
tied together. Acupuncture canreally help. We talked about
resetting the nervous system.
All of those conditions havesome root in
anxiety. Do you tell a child whythey're going? In other words,
does it help to go in withintention?
Well, I feel like it would besimilar to say, if you're taking
(21:34):
your child to a therapist oryou're going to a doctor, you
can say, you know, we reallywant to help you, and we want to
help you sort of feel better,and we want to figure out all
sorts of ways that we can helpyour body improve so that you
can do better. And I feel likejust sort of being open about
we're going to take all thesedifferent approaches. You've
(21:55):
seen the doctor, we have someoneyou could talk to, and then
we're bringing you to a placewhere we're going to help, kind
of help your nervous system. AndI think it's a good idea to
just, you know, talk about thisis helping your nervous system.
It helps you relax. And even ifyou don't say that, children
will often feel very relaxedafter so just pointing out that
it's part of the package ofthings that we're going to do to
(22:18):
help you be your best. I thinkthat really helps.
Are there any side effects thatparents should be aware
of? The side effects ofacupuncture are very minimal.
Rarely, we might get a littlebruising at a needle site.
Sometimes the skin might look alittle red after and just so
that you know your audienceknows when we do acupuncture,
(22:40):
all the needles are disposable.
Once a needle is used, it'stossed. I mean, there have been
very rare reports of peoplegetting infections with
acupuncture, but it isincredibly safe, and the risks
of getting a little bit ofbruising or even a little
bleeding, like they almost neverhappen. So we just don't see
that in people.
One of my favorite aspects ofacupuncture is that the side
(23:01):
effect profile is so so so low,because there are so many things
that we do in medicine that dohave side effects. So I'm so in
favor of considering acupuncturefor whatever modality it may
benefit, because the side effectprofile is so favorable.
And that's the beauty of this isnot only does it have so few
side effects, you can use ittogether with whatever you're
(23:23):
working on to try to be in abetter place.
Yeah, it seems to me, it's oneof these situations where
there's really nothing to lose,especially if you're looking for
a way to feel better, why notgive acupuncture a try? Yeah,
totally agree. Now you may nothave an answer to this, but have
there been any studies that haveshown that acupuncture benefits
kids with anxiety.
(23:43):
Yes, probably the best study waspublished in 2018 and it was
performed out of the Universityof Calgary in Alberta, Canada.
They looked at children andadolescents who had a diagnosis
of generalized anxiety disorder.
It was a randomized pilot, whichmeans that it wasn't like
hundreds and hundreds ofpatients. There's only 20
(24:04):
patients that they did thisstudy on, and they found
significant improvement inanxiety. They did a lot of
scores to see how people feltafterwards, and it significantly
improved symptoms of generalizedanxiety disorder. There have
been other studies that havethere have been some meta
analysis looking at reviews, andas you can imagine, there's not
(24:24):
a lot of data and literature inthe area of Pediatrics, anxiety
and acupuncture use. Butindirectly, there have been
studies looking at children andways to resolve headache in
children. A lot of times, theheadache may not have a
physiologic source. In thisstudy, a significant portion of
patients were under the age of24 and they noticed that with
(24:46):
acupuncture for headaches, itactually reduced anxiety
symptoms as well. There's also astudy that came out of China
that looked at children who bitetheir nails when they combined
action. Acupuncture with thehabit reversing tips that they
used, it resulted in asignificant reduction in nail
biting. So this is, I mean,these are sort of indirect
(25:08):
studies that have been performedin children and adolescents that
show benefit. And I think that,you know, there's definitely the
reduction in anxiety, intreating chronic pain in
children. We have those thatdata doesn't it looks like
chronic pain, but maybe notnecessarily anxiety directly,
but there's a lot of overlap inthese studies, and I think that
(25:29):
to me, that's plenty to convinceme that this is a great modality
to add when we're trying to helpour kids with anxiety.
Absolutely. And in preparationfor this, I was actually looking
up the studies to see if there'sanything supporting acupuncture,
and I also found a lot ofsmaller trials that showed
really promising results forkids that do acupuncture in
(25:51):
conjunction with CBT or therapy.
Oh, that looks very favorable,yeah.
And it's just like we talkedabout before, like there's no
one way to help your kid withanxiety. And you know, I
totally, I think CBT isfantastic, and I think that's a
real cornerstone in helping kidswith anxiety, especially higher
levels of anxiety. But I youknow, all these approaches are
(26:14):
necessary to help our kids.
Now, what is the youngest agekid that you will see at your
center?
We actually see neonates. We'vehad some really little kids. And
of course, our acupuncturiststend not to use needles in kids
that are like less than four orfive. They use more of the deep
(26:35):
kneading and little kids. Imean, you're probably wondering,
why would an almost newborn comein. But, you know, sometimes
parents bring in their babiesbecause of really excessive
crying. They seem really fussyin it maybe making the parent
feel anxious, and they'relooking at what sort of body
work techniques can help. And sotuina and a little Gua Sha,
(26:55):
which is like a gentle scrapingover the limbs that can be very
calming on babies. And so wehave seen parents bringing kids
who just cry a lot and just seemfussy. And so we see that the
very little end of the spectrum.
So there's definitely arange amazing. And in your
experience, are you getting goodfeedback from families where
they've noticed that theacupuncture has lessened the
(27:18):
child's anxiety?
Oh yes. I mean, kids will comefor a regular period of time,
and then we'll see them not needto come in that much. There's a
boy, actually, who had panicattacks, and after three or four
sessions, significant reductionin his panic attacks and and
sometimes when I'm at our centerand just chatting with clients
(27:40):
and people who are waiting to goin. I mean, I hear stories like
acupuncture turned my lifearound. I'm so grateful for what
you do here, and it just reallyinspires me to keep going with
this. We need people to learnthat there are incredible
avenues that are very safe, thatcan really support your mind,
body health. Yeah, no, I highlyencourage people who've never
(28:02):
tried it to just be really openminded and think of it as a body
reset, relaxation. And you gottacome in. You gotta return like
the people who have the bestresponses and do best, they
consistently come on a regularbasis and they see the
improvement. Andcan you tell us, what is the
cost of getting acupuncture? Ithink
(28:23):
the, you know, there's most ofthe acupuncturists that I know
and collaborate with are all outof network, which means it's out
of pocket. It's not covered byinsurance. However, we do
provide a super bill, and wefind that most of our clients
get about, you know, depends onyour insurance, but you can get
about 80% back. Most healthinsurance has allowances for a
(28:47):
certain number of acupuncturesessions per year, as well as
chiropractic and so, you know,in terms of cost, it can be, you
know, our very young children,where our our fees are less than
$100 it's much less when youhave a baby, and we're just
doing a very short session. Andthen, depending on how long the
sessions are, usually it'saround like $150 give or take,
(29:09):
depending on if you want to haveadditional things like ear
seating treatment or some GuaSha together with it. But I
think that the take home is thata lot of flexible health
spending, accounts and healthinsurance will reimburse. So
just make sure that you ask forthe super bill up front when you
can submit that to your healthinsurance. For
(29:29):
people that are interested andthey want to come see you and
they want to go to your center,where can they find you?
So our center, it's say, heartacupuncture for anxiety. That's
S, E, y, H, A, R T. We are inSanta Monica at the corner of 26
in Wilshire Boulevard. We thebest way to book appointments is
(29:50):
actually online on our website,which is say heart.com and we
would love to help yourchildren, Help yourselves. That.
That's what our mission is. Wewant to help people, mind, body
and spirit. Thank youfor your time. I've really
enjoyed this conversation.
Thank you so much. Dr, Jessica,really appreciate it.
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
(30:11):
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica, see
you next month.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.