This week on Your Child is Normal, Dr. Jessica Hochman welcomes back Lynn Lyons—licensed therapist, author, and host of the Flusterclux podcast—for a surprising and eye-opening conversation about clinical hypnosis for kids.
You might associate hypnosis with stage tricks or pop culture shenanigans, but as Lynn explains, it's actually a science-backed, deeply therapeutic technique—especially powerful for children dealing with anxiety, phobias, or even chronic pain.
Drawing from her book Using Hypnosis with Children, Lynn breaks down how hypnosis really works (hint: it’s not about going into a trance), why kids are natural candidates for it, and how parents can use simple hypnotic language to help their children right away.
Whether you're a skeptic or already curious, this episode will expand your thinking and leave you with practical, compassionate tools to help your child shift from stuck to solution.
Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.
For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com
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Do you have a future topic you'd like Dr Jessica Hochman to discuss? Email Dr Jessica Hochman askdrjessicamd@gmail.com.
The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to your child is
normal. I'm your host, DrJessica Hochman, so this month
on the podcast, we're focusingon anxiety, one of the most
common concerns that I see inkids, and we're going to talk
about different ways to helpthem feel better. So last week,
we looked at how acupuncture canhelp support anxious children,
and today, we're diving intoanother thoughtful and evidence
(00:20):
informed approach hypnosis. Myguest is Lynn Lyons, a licensed
therapist, author and one of thetop voices in the field of
childhood anxiety. You might befamiliar with Lynn from her
podcast fluster klux, where sheshares compassionate, practical
advice for parents of kids whoworry. Lynn is truly gifted, and
I'm so glad to welcome her backto the show this time, she's
going to help us understandhypnotherapy, what it is, how it
(00:43):
works, and why it can be such apowerful tool for anxious kids.
She even wrote an entire bookdedicated to this topic. And
before we dive in, if you'reenjoying your child as normal,
please consider leaving a fivestar review or sharing the
podcast with a friend. Yoursupport really helps others find
the show. So thank you inadvance. Now on to my
conversation with Lynn Lyons,Lynn, thank you so much for
(01:06):
coming back on the podcast. Ican't tell you how excited I am
to talk to you again.
I'm excited to talk to you,Jessica, we're friends now.
We are friends now. I'm veryproud of that. Yeah, I know
you came to we had lunch inConcord, New Hampshire, and we
went for a hike in Los Angeles,California.
This is all true. And you put upwith my children at lunch in
(01:27):
Concord, New Hampshire, oh no, Ididn't put up with your
children. Your children weredelightful and funny, and I
loved being with them. AndI just want to say right off the
bat for anybody who's listeningwho does not know of Lynn Lyons
and is not aware of her amazingpodcast. Stop what you're doing,
just follow and subscribe andlisten to Lynn Lyons, fluster,
klux podcast. It's so wonderfulfor any parent that has a kid
(01:50):
who's struggling with anxiety. Ijust think the world of what
you're doing, it's your adviceis so helpful, it's so
actionable, and you do it withsuch a fun, loving spirit.
You're not so serious, which Ifeel like a lot of healthcare
providers nowadays are just wetake everything too seriously,
and I feel like you do in theperfect way. So thank you. So
I'm excited to talk to you,because I've known you for a
(02:11):
while, and we've talked aboutchildren and anxiety and how to
help parents deal with theirkids anxiety. What I did not
know was that You've alsowritten a book, a really big,
thick book. I'm holding it righthere, yes, all about how to use
hypnosis as a technique withchildren who have anxiety. Yeah,
there's other, all sorts ofthings, all sorts of things,
(02:31):
yeah, yeah. And I just wanted toexplore this with you, because
I'm always looking for moretools to help parents with their
kids and hypnosis, I find reallyinteresting, because I have to
admit, in my mind, I alwayspictured hypnosis as something
that might not be solid inscience, that may be a little
more theatrical, yeah, but afterreading your book, I've come to
(02:53):
understand that that's not it atall, and that it's really a
helpful therapeutic tool forchildren,
it is. And the reason you didn'tknow that I wrote a book on
hypnosis is because I don't talkabout it all that much, which is
a little self protective,because people have impressions
about it, and they're like, Oh,she does hypnosis. I've had
(03:15):
schools where I'm going to dopresentations. I used to have it
in my bio, you know, you listthe books that you've written.
I've written four books, andI've had people ask me to take
that book off. Because, yes, so,so you're totally you're sort of
like, Hmm, about hypnosis istotally valid. Because here's
the problem, hypnosis lives inthis weird world where it is
(03:37):
both entertainment andshenanigans and ridiculousness
and highly backed up by reallygood science and research. And
there aren't too many fieldsthat straddle those two very
dichotomous positions. So itmakes it harder to be somebody
(03:59):
who does hypnosis, because a lotof exposure that people have had
to it has been that they went tothat R rated hypnosis show when
they were in college, or thatepisode from Gilligan's Island,
which, of course, I'm datingmyself, where the guy came and
hypnotized everybody on TheIsland. It's silliness, but
(04:19):
until probably 50 years ago,hypnosis was a part of medical
school training. It was a verysolid and appreciated part of
psychiatry, and it, in fact, isa much more respected and used
in Europe than it is in theUnited States,
(04:42):
that's fascinating, and so I'mcurious, how did you become
exposed to hypnosis and itsbenefits?
Well, so long ago, when I was alittle tiny new social worker, a
friend of mine said, I'mbringing in this guy named
Michael yapko, who. I talk aboutall the time. He's been on the
podcast. Not only is he one ofthe world's experts in
(05:05):
depression, he's also one of theworld's experts in the use of
clinical hypnosis withdepression. And in fact, before
Michael It was sort of standardoperating procedure that you
didn't do hypnosis withdepressed people. And he was
like, hmm, because he questionsa lot of things in a wonderful
way. So when I first met Michaelback in that would have been in
(05:28):
like, I can't even remember 1993or something. When I first met
him, he introduced me toclinical hypnosis, and that was
my first knowledge of it. Ididn't know anything about it. I
didn't know what it was about. Ididn't know how it operated, and
he was the one who taught memost everything I know about it.
(05:51):
I've worked with other peopletoo, but it's such a good
clinical tool, and it's got somany applications in my work and
in your work, by the way,Jessica, pediatricians use it
like crazy. And in fact, thebiggest pediatric Hypnosis
Training Institute is full ofMDS that use it in all sorts of
(06:17):
medical ways. Well,today I used it with a child who
was getting ready for avaccination, yeah, and we talked
about using their imaginationand going to a different place.
And they told me, you know, theylove playing soccer. So we were
picturing them, you know, canand being the star of a soccer
game. And they appreciatedthinking about how to be
distracted in anticipation ofhaving an uncomfortable
experience. Yeah, I already amtrying to implement a little bit
(06:40):
of it. I love it. I loveit. The way I think about it is
that I am always trying to sellsomething, to get somebody to
hear something, or understandsomething, or shift something,
and hypnosis is just one of theways that I can do that. So it's
really a delivery system andhypnotic language, as you
(07:01):
discovered today, with youryoung client, with your young
patient, hypnosis is a way ofharnessing imagination, and it's
really, really helpful andreally easy with kids, because
they kind of naturally do thatanyway. So it's about how I
deliver what I want to deliverin a way that's interesting or
(07:24):
creative or sometimessurprising, and harnessing those
wonderful imaginative qualitiesand creative qualities that kids
and adults have. Actuallywhat I find interesting is a lot
of therapists now talk about howimportant is to feel your
feelings, how to get overanxiety, or how to move through
feelings that are unwanted. Youactually have to embrace them,
(07:46):
and you have to feel them. But Ithink you describe it
beautifully in your book, thathypnosis, you actually do the
opposite. You want to disconnecton purpose. And so thinking that
disconnection can actually be atool, I found really interesting
to thinkabout well, and that's the
thing, is that hypnosis fearsnothing. And so again, when I'm
(08:06):
doing hypnosis, I am trying tooffer the message that the
person needs. So sometimes themessage is like, if you're
giving somebody a shot.
Sometimes the message isdisconnection. We're going to
leave your arm here and take therest of you to that soccer
(08:28):
field. Sometimes it's aboutconnection, because there are
certain situations or ailmentsthat we deal with in which
connecting somebody back totheir body is also important. So
whatever they're doing, we andthis is what I'm doing as a
therapist too. Whatever they'redoing, I am trying to create a
(08:50):
session that offers aninterruption to the pattern, a
better way of doing things. Soan example of a situation in
which connection might be. Thegoal is, say, I'm working with a
dad. And this dad, the mom,comes in, and the family is
(09:11):
working on anxiety or whatever,and this dad is like, look, my
kid is a baby. Boys aren'tsupposed to cry, and when he
gets upset, I just need to tunehim out. I just I can't even
tolerate his emotions. Nowthat's not really a good way to
(09:31):
parent. So the mom might sayhe's really mean, like our child
is struggling, or he's asensitive kid, and he cries, and
my husband just dismisses him.
Well, then I might do a hypnosissession with the dad that is
about, how do we connect?
Because he's already got thedisconnection thing down pat. So
(09:54):
it might be being able to talkto him about the importance of.
Of being there for his son. Howdo different animals connect
with their young? I might talkabout that. I might talk about
how you handle a situation inwhich you really want to leave
(10:14):
the situation but it's importantfor you to stick around. I mean,
there's all sorts of examples ofthat. So sometimes for sure the
goal is connection, andsometimes for sure the goal is
disconnection.
So interesting, yeah, forsomeone like me who may not know
what hypnosis is actually like,what is hypnosis actually feel
(10:37):
like for a child? Is it likebeing in a trance? Is it like
being in a guided Daydream painta picture for us what a hypnosis
session would look like.
So it depends how old the childis, because developmentally, it
can be very different. And what,what I talk about, and what you
proudly did today is that youfocused on being hypnotic,
(11:00):
rather than doing hypnosis. Andbeing hypnotic means that you
use your language, maybe youchange your voice a little bit.
It's an invitation. So beinghypnotic is an invitation to use
your imagination. If I'm doingwith a little kid, if I'm doing
(11:20):
it with a six year old and I'mhelping them get ready because
they have to go and get someteeth pulled, or they're having
difficulty falling asleep atnight because they're so worried
about monsters under the bed, orthey have a chronic health issue
that they need to deal with in adifferent way, I am going To
invite them into using theirimagination. And so I might even
(11:43):
say, Hey, I've got a story totell you. Do you want me to tell
you a story? Alright, sit back,and I just want you to listen to
this story. And then I starttalking, and my voice changes a
little bit, and I slow down alittle bit, and I pull them into
the story. Their eyes may bewide open. They may be, you
(12:04):
know, looking right at me, orthey may be moving around.
People have an idea thathypnosis. You're sitting there,
you're perfectly still, youreyes are closed, you're in a
trance. As we get older, that'soften how it looks. But with
little kids, it's very fluid.
Once kids get older, then Imight say, alright, we're going
(12:24):
to work on doing something like,let's take the shot example.
We're going to work on doingsomething that's going to help
you get your vaccination. Sohere's what I want you to do. I
want you to sit back. I want youto close your eyes. I want you
to get absorbed in thisconversation. And again, I'm
inviting them into something,but it's going to be a little
(12:48):
bit more structured. And whenI'm doing a hypnosis session,
the way I was trained and how Ihave practiced, and what the
book is about is that it is verystructured and I am laying it
out. I have a process that I'mgoing through. I'm not just
(13:08):
talking willy nilly. I reallyhave an idea of how I set it up,
how I deliver the message, how Icement the message, how I do
that post hypnotic suggestionthat says, now the next time
that you're in situation X,you'll be able to experience why
(13:29):
all of that is very, veryspecific and very, very clear in
my mind. So there's a lot ofparticular elements to a
hypnosis session that I'm reallypaying attention to, and that's
just a testament to the trainingthat I had early on. Yeah. So it
(13:50):
sounds like when you providehypnosis as a therapeutic
session, you really have to planahead of time what the therapy
session is going to be like. Youjust don't go in willy nilly and
guide them through hypnosis?
Well, sort of I may know I'mgoing to do hypnosis, but
because I've been doing this forsuch a long time, I am
interviewing them, and I amcreating the session in my head.
(14:14):
So I am listening for words. Iam listening for potential
metaphors to use. I am listeningto the way that they take in
information. I am listening toall of that, and then I'm
creating the session as I'mtalking to them. Usually I might
interview somebody for 10 or 15minutes, and then I do the
session, which I always record.
I always record my sessions sothat people can have them, that
(14:37):
they can listen to them later,that they can refer to them if
I'm doing sessions with kids,I'm always happy to have parents
in the room, but then if, say,one parent couldn't be there,
but they want to hear, what didI do, they can listen to the
session later, but I'm creatingthe session in my head as I'm
listening to the client. As I'minterviewing I'm asking
(14:58):
specific. Specific questions.
I'm gathering information sothat I can put it all together.
That's the fun of it. Actually,for me, it's very it's very
creative.
Is there a particular age whereyou find it's most helpful with
kids? I know little kids inparticular, I'm thinking they
have such vivid imaginations,but it might also benefit
(15:18):
teenagers who tend to have moreworries in their heads.
Yeah, we're all the above, allthe above. You just have to be
able to adapt your style to theteenager. What I talk about in
the book is how it's differentwith little kids, and they're
easy, like, I don't even use theword hypnosis. Sometimes with
them, I'm like, Hey, you want tohear a story, you want to do
something. And they're all inolder kids, sometimes teenagers,
(15:42):
they're kind of curious aboutit. Remember that hypnosis is
just the delivery method. So ifI have a child who needs to get
a cavity filled, or a childwho's getting chemotherapy, or a
child who is having difficultyhitting their siblings, I'm can
do a session with that. If I'vegot a teenager that is
struggling with depression,teenager who's using self harm,
(16:05):
teenager who is having a reallyhard time expressing their
feelings to people who need tohear their feelings, teenager
who wants to do better in schoolbut is having a difficult time
getting their homework Done.
Whatever the problem is, I canuse the hypnosis as a way of
delivering the message.
(16:26):
And what do most patients thatyou take care of? What do most
kids say about how they feelafterwards? Do they realize they
were in a hypnosis or does itjust feel like play to them? Is
there a common consensus thatyou hear from your patients so
for older kids, like, startingat the age of nine or so. And
you asked, What's a good age?
Nine is such a good age? Like, Ijust love nine year olds. You
(16:46):
know, you know nine year olds,they're just so great. I know, I
know they're the best, but theywill say, like, wow, that was
cool. Or I, I can't remembereverything that you said, but I
could hear everything you said.
And one of the questions that Ioften ask at the end is I'll
(17:07):
say, without looking at theclock, do you have a sense of
how long I was talking to you?
And they'll say, like, 10minutes. And I'll go, no, 35 and
they're like, Wow. So they havethis distorted sense of time,
which is cool. And I'll say tothem, Do you Do you remember
what we talked about? Andsometimes they say yes, and
(17:27):
sometimes they say no. Idefinitely check in with people
during the session, so I'mmaking sure that they're getting
the message that I'm deliveringso they remember that you think
generally they come in, they'relike, that was cool, or that was
different than I thought. Orthey'll say, How do I know I was
hypnotized? And then I'll say,how long was I talking to you?
(17:49):
And they say, 10 minutes. I go,No, 35 minutes. So I can tell
you I've been doing this for along time. I've done hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds ofhypnosis sessions, and with
very, very, very few exceptions,I can really only remember one,
and it was a grown up. Mostpeople have a very positive
experience with it.
(18:14):
It's amazing. Are there certainpediatric issues that you find
hypnosis works best with? So forexample, specific phobias, or
you'd mentioned self harm ordepression, any particular type
of anxiety that you've noticed,notice better outcomes.
Probably specific phobias. It'sreally helpful. Needle phobia,
(18:36):
it's really helpful with forsure, pediatric emergency rooms
and a lot of oncology practices,chemotherapy. Use it for side
effects, for medication, forcancer treatment. Use it for
there's a lot of research on itseffectiveness in spinal taps or
(18:59):
lung bar lumbar punctures,emergency rooms use it for
stitches, for injury, for justbringing things down when
somebody needs to be stillduring a procedure. So there's
all those medical applicationsfor sure in my field, certainly
(19:19):
for anxiety, being able to dealwith worry. But my whole goal
when I'm dealing with with achild with anxiety, is to not
try and get rid of anything. Sothe more you try and get rid of
it, the more you say you're notgoing to worry anymore, or
(19:39):
you're going to feel calm andrelaxed as you take this test.
That is not what I'm doing withhypnosis. It is not about
creating relaxation or creatingcalmness. And in fact, there's a
talk that I do a lot calledBeyond calming down, and it's
about using hypnosis in a waythat doesn't support. Support
(20:00):
this idea that we need to becalm and relaxed. What I am
doing is I am saying we aregoing to help you with hypnosis.
Be more flexible, becauserigidity is a huge problem in
anxiety. We're going to help youtolerate uncertainty. I'm going
to tell them stories aboutstepping in to situations in
(20:23):
which you don't know exactlywhat's going to happen. So
again, I'm delivering all thesame messages, but I'm doing it
hypnotically. I'm usingmetaphors. I'm using stories.
I'm talking to them about allthe ways they've already changed
since they were little, and howthis is going to just be another
(20:44):
opportunity for them to changesome patterns. So it's all about
delivering those messages. Thevery same thing goes for
particularly teenagers that aredealing with depression. There
are certain patterns that makeyou at risk for depression,
certain patterns that keepdepression going. And I can use
(21:06):
hypnosis as a way to offer analternative to those patterns,
and it's usually with me tellingstories, giving examples,
talking about the pattern ratherthan the content, and then
offering this suggestion, posthypnotic suggestion, that says,
(21:26):
the next time you find yourselfin a situation in which you're
experiencing this, wouldn't itbe interesting if you allowed
yourself to experience thisinstead? So it's all I'm playing
with language, I'm creating anexperience in which they are
feeling differently in my officethan they felt before, and I'm
(21:50):
using all of that stuff, all ofthose experiences, to support
the idea that you can change andthat's a critical message for
anxious and depressed kids toget
I think you say it so nicely inyour book when you talk about
how hypnosis is a bridge frombeing stuck to solutions,
(22:12):
because I do find that for somany of us, the problem is we
just get stuck in our heads andwe aren't solution oriented. And
this is such a nice avenue toconsider
well. And you know, the thing,the thing that's interesting to
me about using hypnosis is thatI'm saying a lot of the things
that are pretty common sensical.
You know, if you're giving ashot, what's the message that
(22:34):
you want to give to a childwho's afraid of needles?
This may bother you, but you cando it right,
and that it's gonna hurt alittle bit, but
be better off for it on theother end, more protected,
right?
And it's tolerable, and you'llget through it right? So that's
the message you want to deliver.
So say you were delivering thatin a hypnotic way. You might
(22:58):
talk about how interesting it isthat different parts of our
bodies feel different ways atdifferent times. And isn't it
kind of cool how if you arerunning around outside and
having a great time with yourfriends, and then you come in
later and you notice you have ascratch on your leg, and maybe
(23:21):
it's even bleeding a little bit,and you think I didn't even
notice when I got that scratch.
It's so cool, isn't it? So youtell that story, and you're
delivering the message of, isn'tit interesting how sensations
are different at different timesin different circumstances,
(23:42):
right?
It's so true. I say thatactually, without hearing,
having heard your example, I saythat all the time with kids, I
noticed a lot of bruises ontheir shins, or you see, as you
said, scratch marks. And I'llsay, when did that happen? And
most of the time, they have norecollection of right, hurt
themselves. But you're right,when they're when they're
getting their shots, they thinka lot about it. They really
anticipate the pain. They dreadthe sensation. And probably in
(24:05):
most situations, it was not asbad as that time when they did
get the big bruise on theirlegs,
right, right. And so you can useall of that experience as a way
to just talk about withcuriosity. Isn't it cool that
bump, bump, bump, bump, bump,right? Isn't it interesting? And
you're pulling them into this ina way that's very different than
(24:27):
saying, Okay, so we're going togive you a shot, and it's
necessary that you have thisvaccination, because it protects
you from disease, and it reallywon't hurt for very long. And
let's do all these distractiontechniques and blah, blah, blah,
although distraction can behelpful for sure, as you know,
but we're really creating thisatmosphere of curiosity and
almost kind of delight, like,isn't it so astounding how blah
(24:53):
blah blah blah blah, right?
That's what I'm doing. I'm justplaying with those things that
human beings do on a regularbasis. And. I did an episode
recently on fluster klux abouthypnosis, and I think I told the
story on that episode of thetime that I was running through
my house, I clipped the side ofa wood table with my toe. You
know how you do that? And itkills. I was lying down on the
(25:13):
rug in my living room. My kidswere little, and I said to my
kids, I'm going to the top ofthe mountain in Montana. It's a
mountain called Great Northern.
I'm going to the top of GreatNorthern. I'll be back in a
minute. And they were like,okay, yeah. And I just lied
there. I just took myself out ofmy body for a little while, went
(25:34):
to the top of the mountain. Mytoes still hurt, but I wasn't
panicking. I wasn't freakingout. And then I came back and
things were much better. Let'ssay someone's hearing your story
and they think, Okay, thissounds great. Should they
visualize where they want to gobefore the moment? So for
example, right now, should I sayto myself, Okay, I like the
beach. Should I take myself togoing to the beach the next time
(25:54):
I hurt myself?
Yeah, sure. So you have it inyour back pocket. So I my
favorite place to be is on thetop of mountains. I love hiking
up mountains, so of course, I'mgoing to go to a mountain. You
love the beach. So somebodymight say, Oh, I love to play
tennis, so I'm just going toimagine whacking the most
perfect backhand ever. Somebodyelse might say, Oh, I love
(26:15):
riding my horse, so I'm justgoing to put myself on my horse.
Or I love canoeing. Doesn'tmatter. I love ice cream. So I'm
going to imagine, you know,licking an ice cream cone so you
have it in your back pocket. Andit's fun to do that with kids
too. You can say, okay, so whenwe go into this situation, like,
maybe you have a cavity, or youhave to get a shot, or you have
(26:36):
to, whatever, let's just imaginefor a moment, where would we
take ourselves if we wanted alittle break from this
situation? Yeah, and I don't. Ihonestly, just so you know, in
in the use of my hypnosis, Idon't use this whole going to a
(26:56):
safe place very often when I'mdoing anxiety, when I'm working
with anxiety and depression,there's a lot of stuff in
hypnosis that is actually prettysimplistic to me. So, you know,
imagine yourself in a safeplace, or imagine yourself
walking through a forest. Youknow, I'm like, Okay, here we
go. It really is about creatingsomething or having somebody
(27:19):
come up with their ownexperience, and you helping them
create their own experience.
That's the opposite of what'skeeping them stuck. Yeah,
so for a parent who can't find atrained provider right away,
yeah, I'm thinking of an examplein my own family. Last night, my
nine year old had a really badcanker sore and I did all the
(27:41):
pediatrician and mom things forher. I gave her ibuprofen, I
gave her a topical medicine toput on her, canker, sort of
helper, and she was stillcomplaining about it. Is there
something I could have done tohelp her, use her imagination or
sort of a hypnotic therapy todisconnect her from that
discomfort?
Yeah, so you could have said,Okay, so I've done all the
things that we can do to make itfeel better, but it's not going
(28:05):
to feel perfect, and right now,why don't we imagine you could
either say, taking thediscomfort and putting in a
little box, or you could alsosay, let's take the part of your
brain that's really focusing onthe discomfort, and put that
somewhere else too. So you couldsay, like, oh, here comes whiny
(28:28):
Wanda, right? We've got, oh,boy, she's really focused on the
canker sore. What you focus on,you amplify. That's one of the
key rules of hypnosis andpsychotherapy, actually. And so
you say, oh, there's that whinypart of you that's really paying
attention to this and reallythinking about it, so let's call
it whiny Wanda. Where shall weput whiny Wanda? Should we put
her in a soundproof booth?
Should we put her blah blah? Andyou can play with it in that
(28:50):
way. So you're not saying we'regoing to take all of the
discomfort away, but we're goingto shift your focus away from
this part of it. Right? Thatwould be something that that we
might do. So thefirst time that I heard of
hypnosis being utilized in themedical community, where it's
been more legitimized, has beenhypnosis with moms who want to
have a non medicated labor.
(29:15):
That's me, and I've talked to alot of moms where it's been very
successful. Yeah, I hadboth my kids using hypnosis, as
you can imagine,you did wait so, yeah, amazing,
yeah, because I guide youthrough it. Or did you do it on
your own?
I mean, it's so I had thingsthat I would imagine, and so I
would just put myself into thatlittle trance state the second
(29:36):
time with my second son, who wasa big boy, right? I'm not a I'm
not a big person. He was like,he was an over an eight pounder.
I had six hour labors with bothmy kids, and at one point, the
midwife said to me, I was at theBirthing Center here in Concord,
and the midwife said, said tome, like, Hey, we're going to
(29:58):
need a little something fromyou. Mm. Right? I mean, like,
he's, he's here. I was like,fully dilated. They're like, you
know, I mean, we hate to disturbyou, but we need you to, we need
you to sort of push a littlebit. I was like, oh, okay, yeah,
thoseare pretty incredible. That's
really cool. You've been usinghypnosis. You've used it in your
(30:18):
life for many situations. Itsounds like where it's been
beneficial.
Oh, for sure. Yeah, I've used itover and over again. I've used
it for pain, I've used it forchildbirth, I've used it for
medical procedures. I've used iton my kids, my husband.
Yeah, amazing, amazing. And whenyou think back to using hypnosis
(30:38):
with your patients or with yourclients, do you have a favorite
story that sticks out, or maybea case that really has stuck
with you, where you've noticedthat hypnosis made a big
difference in their anxiety orin their well being?
Yeah. So there was this one boy,he had been to a lot of
therapists before, he had beenreally therapized, and they were
(31:01):
working on his anxiety. This wasa kid that had a great
difficulty getting into school,which is not unusual for me and
my area of specialty. He washaving a really hard time making
friends. His life had justgotten smaller and smaller and
smaller because of his anxiety.
He had had a lot of therapy. Hehad been on medication and off
(31:22):
medication. His parents werejust beside themselves. They
were such nice, loving parents.
They didn't know what to do. Sohe came to see me, and I said,
let's do some hypnosis. After I,you know, met with him a few
times, and I did a session withhim that talked about the
ability to do something that youdidn't think was possible. And
(31:46):
there are all sorts of stories Ihave for that. So I talked to
him about running a four minutemile, which is a story I march
out a lot with kids, how nobodybelieved it was possible to run
a four minute mile. And thenRoger Banister ran the four
minute mile. And then all theseother people ran the four minute
mile that nobody believedlooking up at the moon, that it
(32:07):
would be possible for humanbeings to walk on the moon. And
then, sure enough, astronautswalked on the moon, you know,
stories on and on and on, andthen connecting it to him, that
just because, basically themessage was that there are all
sorts of things that peoplebelieve over centuries, that
(32:30):
people believe human beingsbelieve. And isn't it
interesting when we startbusting those beliefs? And then
I'm going to say, I wonder whatbeliefs you've been carrying
about you that maybe are worthbusting. I wonder how you can
begin to see things in adifferent way that maybe you
(32:50):
haven't seen them before. Iwonder what messages you've
gotten, just like everybody gotabout the four minute mile or
the moon or polio. I wonder whatyou can begin to see as possible
that maybe you never knew waspossible. And then I would say,
and so the next time that you'restepping into a situation where
(33:13):
your worry shows up and says,This isn't possible, I wonder if
you'll think about Roger or themoon, or, you know, other
stories I told him, and I wonderhow that will change the way you
think about you. So that was thesession I did. I recorded it. He
had it to listen to. I did a fewmore after that, just sort of
reinforcing that. And withinabout two months, he was back in
(33:36):
school. He was riding the schoolbus, he took up an instrument
and was playing in the schoolorchestra. Huge, huge changes.
And it was all the things that Ihad been telling him, but there
was a message of this ispossible that he really needed
to hear. Instead of hearing,this is what's wrong with you.
(33:58):
You have all these diagnoses.
These are the things, oh mygosh, your brain doesn't work,
right? Blah, blah, blah. He hadto hear a message of, this is
what's possible. And for somereason, delivering things in
this hypnotic way seems to, youknow, like uncork the bottle.
And I don't even know how itworks. I don't even know it's
(34:18):
just, it's just a pretty cooltool.
Well, it sounds so positive, itsounds so glass is half full.
And I do feel like mindsetreally makes a big difference.
So it makes sense to me why thiswould work. Because I do feel
like the more you're looking forgood things to happen to you in
your life, you find those goodthings, those good things start
(34:39):
to happen to you. On the on theflip side, the more you start
thinking that bad things aregoing to happen to you, you'll
find those bad things. So Ithink messaging that you're
giving,yeah, and that that right there,
Jessica, would be a greathypnosis session, right? So
somebody comes in to see you,and you know that they have a
pessimistic view of the world.
(34:59):
We know. That depressed peopleand anxious people have a really
hard time imagining a positivefuture. When they go into their
imagination, they don't pullthat stuff up. So then you do a
session with somebody on thatvery theme of, isn't it
interesting that when we lookfor good things, we see them,
and when we look for bad things,we see them. And there's a
(35:20):
gazillion examples of that,right? So yeah, what's the
difference between somebody whogoes for a walk in their
neighborhood and just noticesFrank isn't mowing his lawn the
way I wanted to, or, boy, thatmailbox looks terrible. Oh boy,
Phyllis still has herValentine's decorations out in
its March. Or somebody who goesfor a walk in the neighborhood
and is like, oh my gosh, look atthose chipmunks. Or, oh, look
(35:44):
like, obviously, so and so'shome from college because the
basketballs are all over thefront lawn. You could do a
whole, a whole hypnosis sessionabout what glasses we're wearing
as we're walking through theworld.
Yes. And I'm thinking, I hopeI'm not Person A that you
described. You want to be aroundpeople that have good, positive
energy. It's sort of, it's asnowball effect, right? The more
(36:07):
you think positively, the moreyou're looking for the good to
happen. It's a, it's a selffulfilling prophecy,
yeah, such a wonderful exampleof you saying, here's a message
that I think is really importantto deliver. And then I say,
okay, so how am I going todeliver that message
hypnotically? Hypnosis is justthe delivery system, and it's
(36:28):
just a fun, positive, often veryenjoyable experience for people
to get a message delivered tothem. You know, some people
think about hypnosis forsmoking, right? And so what?
What's the message that you'regoing to get delivered when you
go to get hypnosis for for toend smoking, which is about 50%
(36:52):
effective, by the way, at best,so which is huge, yeah, that's
pretty darn good,right? I actually have a friend
who used hypnosis to quitsmoking. She smoked for almost
20 years, and it was effective.
It actually got herto stop, yeah, and so I would
wonder, I would ask her, like,what was the message that was
delivered? Right? Maybe shedoesn't know, but what was the
message that was delivered? Andwe know to stop smoking. You
(37:15):
probably know this, the researchshows that talking about the
health effects of smokingdoesn't really have that big an
impact, but talking about theimpact of your smoking on other
people has more of an impact.
And maybe she stopped smokingbecause the person doing the
hypnosis session was able tobring home for her in a way she
(37:37):
hadn't heard before how annoyingother people find her smoking, I
don't know, but that would bethe message that I would
deliver. So we're reallyfocusing on, what are we saying
to people? What are we saying tokids that allows them to do
something differently,amazing? Yeah, it's such a
(37:57):
great tool to learn about. AndI'm thinking, for people that
are listening and they'reinterested in using hypnosis, do
you know where they could findsomebody who's trained in
hypnosisto experience hypnosis? Like to
go to a practitioner? So there'sif
you're a parent who like, let'ssay you're a parent who's
listening, and your child hassome specific phobias, and you
want to use hypnosis as a as atool, how can they start finding
(38:21):
somebody that they trust andthat's experienced and good at
hypnosis? Yeah.
So a good place to go is theAmerican Society of Clinical
hypnosis, otherwise known asash. And there are some other
organizations too, the Nationalpediatric Hypnosis Training
Institute, otherwise known asnifty. They do a lot of training
(38:45):
for people interested inpediatric hypnosis, and they
probably have a referral basethere too. So that's another
good place to start. Here's thething, do not go to somebody for
hypnosis who is not clinicallytrained. So this is the other
problem with hypnosis, is thatyou can go and get certified in
(39:07):
hypnosis by going to a weekendcourse. It's sort of like being
able to get certified as aparent coach in 40 hours or
something, right? So, so thereare very different levels of
training. Hypnosis is notregulated. You don't have to
have a license to do it. You andI to have our licenses for our
(39:29):
professions. We have to dothings all the time to prove
that we are competent at ourjobs. You don't want to go to
somebody who calls themselves acertified hypnotist or a
certified hypnotherapist, ifthey also aren't qualified as a
(39:50):
medical or mental healthprofessional? Yeah, that's how
you want to make the difference.
And I'm just thinking a lot ofpatients, when their kids have
anxiety, you. They don't knowwhat to do next, and they don't
know that there are otherexisting tools out there. So I
think this is, this is sohelpful to know about. So thank
you so so much for spreading theword.
You're so welcome. The otherthing too that parents can do,
(40:14):
and it's not like I'm humping myown book because of all the
books I've written, My hypnosisbook has sold far less copies
than any other book, justbecause it's kind of a niche
market. But the book that Iwrote, I think my mom said to
me, when she read it, everygrandparent should read this
(40:35):
book, because the language init, it helps you introduce this
idea of using your language in away that helps kids. And so it
is full of ideas and languageand examples that help parents
too. So it's a great book toread if you're interested in
learning clinically how to dohypnosis, but also if you're a
(40:56):
parent thinking like, How can Ilearn to use language in that
way? I really filled it with allsorts of examples that I think
are very digestible for a parentwanting to learn how to how to
use this tool, just like you didwith your daughter, right?
This is a very, very usefulbook. I agree with your mom. Oh,
(41:17):
well,my mom likes this book better
than this is her favorite bookof mine, and she always says to
me, you shouldn't have puthypnosis on the cover. That's
why people don't read it. Andshe's probably right about that,
but it's what the book is about.
So Ithink it's very cool. I'm very,
very proud of you, and I willmake sure and link the book in
the description of the podcast.
It's called using hypnosis withchildren. Lynn, you are such a
(41:38):
gift. You're such a gem. I feelso lucky to have this
conversation with you, and thankyou so much for being a guest
again on this podcast.
I really appreciate you.
I will come back anytime. Andyou also have to come back on
fluster klux too, because youare a guest on my podcast, and
people love the episode that youdid on our podcast, so we're
gonna have to make that happentoo
well. Thank you so much. You'rewelcome. Thank you for
(41:59):
listening, and I hope youenjoyed this week's episode of
your child is normal. Also, ifyou could take a moment and
leave a five star review,wherever it is you listen to
podcasts, I would greatlyappreciate it. It really makes a
difference to help this podcastgrow. You can also follow me on
Instagram at ask Dr Jessica.
Hi everyone, and welcome back to your child is
normal. I'm your host, DrJessica Hochman, so this month
on the podcast, we're focusingon anxiety, one of the most
common concerns that I see inkids, and we're going to talk
about different ways to helpthem feel better. So last week,
we looked at how acupuncture canhelp support anxious children,
and today, we're diving intoanother thoughtful and evidence
(00:20):
informed approach hypnosis. Myguest is Lynn Lyons, a licensed
therapist, author and one of thetop voices in the field of
childhood anxiety. You might befamiliar with Lynn from her
podcast fluster klux, where sheshares compassionate, practical
advice for parents of kids whoworry. Lynn is truly gifted, and
I'm so glad to welcome her backto the show this time, she's
going to help us understandhypnotherapy, what it is, how it
(00:43):
works, and why it can be such apowerful tool for anxious kids.
She even wrote an entire bookdedicated to this topic. And
before we dive in, if you'reenjoying your child as normal,
please consider leaving a fivestar review or sharing the
podcast with a friend. Yoursupport really helps others find
the show. So thank you inadvance. Now on to my
conversation with Lynn Lyons,Lynn, thank you so much for
(01:06):
coming back on the podcast. Ican't tell you how excited I am
to talk to you again.
I'm excited to talk to you,Jessica, we're friends now.
We are friends now. I'm veryproud of that. Yeah, I know
you came to we had lunch inConcord, New Hampshire, and we
went for a hike in Los Angeles,California.
This is all true. And you put upwith my children at lunch in
(01:27):
Concord, New Hampshire, oh no, Ididn't put up with your
children. Your children weredelightful and funny, and I
loved being with them. AndI just want to say right off the
bat for anybody who's listeningwho does not know of Lynn Lyons
and is not aware of her amazingpodcast. Stop what you're doing,
just follow and subscribe andlisten to Lynn Lyons, fluster,
klux podcast. It's so wonderfulfor any parent that has a kid
(01:50):
who's struggling with anxiety. Ijust think the world of what
you're doing, it's your adviceis so helpful, it's so
actionable, and you do it withsuch a fun, loving spirit.
You're not so serious, which Ifeel like a lot of healthcare
providers nowadays are just wetake everything too seriously,
and I feel like you do in theperfect way. So thank you. So
I'm excited to talk to you,because I've known you for a
(02:11):
while, and we've talked aboutchildren and anxiety and how to
help parents deal with theirkids anxiety. What I did not
know was that You've alsowritten a book, a really big,
thick book. I'm holding it righthere, yes, all about how to use
hypnosis as a technique withchildren who have anxiety. Yeah,
there's other, all sorts ofthings, all sorts of things,
(02:31):
yeah, yeah. And I just wanted toexplore this with you, because
I'm always looking for moretools to help parents with their
kids and hypnosis, I find reallyinteresting, because I have to
admit, in my mind, I alwayspictured hypnosis as something
that might not be solid inscience, that may be a little
more theatrical, yeah, but afterreading your book, I've come to
(02:53):
understand that that's not it atall, and that it's really a
helpful therapeutic tool forchildren,
it is. And the reason you didn'tknow that I wrote a book on
hypnosis is because I don't talkabout it all that much, which is
a little self protective,because people have impressions
about it, and they're like, Oh,she does hypnosis. I've had
(03:15):
schools where I'm going to dopresentations. I used to have it
in my bio, you know, you listthe books that you've written.
I've written four books, andI've had people ask me to take
that book off. Because, yes, so,so you're totally you're sort of
like, Hmm, about hypnosis istotally valid. Because here's
the problem, hypnosis lives inthis weird world where it is
(03:37):
both entertainment andshenanigans and ridiculousness
and highly backed up by reallygood science and research. And
there aren't too many fieldsthat straddle those two very
dichotomous positions. So itmakes it harder to be somebody
(03:59):
who does hypnosis, because a lotof exposure that people have had
to it has been that they went tothat R rated hypnosis show when
they were in college, or thatepisode from Gilligan's Island,
which, of course, I'm datingmyself, where the guy came and
hypnotized everybody on TheIsland. It's silliness, but
(04:19):
until probably 50 years ago,hypnosis was a part of medical
school training. It was a verysolid and appreciated part of
psychiatry, and it, in fact, isa much more respected and used
in Europe than it is in theUnited States,
(04:42):
that's fascinating, and so I'mcurious, how did you become
exposed to hypnosis and itsbenefits?
Well, so long ago, when I was alittle tiny new social worker, a
friend of mine said, I'mbringing in this guy named
Michael yapko, who. I talk aboutall the time. He's been on the
podcast. Not only is he one ofthe world's experts in
(05:05):
depression, he's also one of theworld's experts in the use of
clinical hypnosis withdepression. And in fact, before
Michael It was sort of standardoperating procedure that you
didn't do hypnosis withdepressed people. And he was
like, hmm, because he questionsa lot of things in a wonderful
way. So when I first met Michaelback in that would have been in
(05:28):
like, I can't even remember 1993or something. When I first met
him, he introduced me toclinical hypnosis, and that was
my first knowledge of it. Ididn't know anything about it. I
didn't know what it was about. Ididn't know how it operated, and
he was the one who taught memost everything I know about it.
(05:51):
I've worked with other peopletoo, but it's such a good
clinical tool, and it's got somany applications in my work and
in your work, by the way,Jessica, pediatricians use it
like crazy. And in fact, thebiggest pediatric Hypnosis
Training Institute is full ofMDS that use it in all sorts of
(06:17):
medical ways. Well,today I used it with a child who
was getting ready for avaccination, yeah, and we talked
about using their imaginationand going to a different place.
And they told me, you know, theylove playing soccer. So we were
picturing them, you know, canand being the star of a soccer
game. And they appreciatedthinking about how to be
distracted in anticipation ofhaving an uncomfortable
experience. Yeah, I already amtrying to implement a little bit
(06:40):
of it. I love it. I loveit. The way I think about it is
that I am always trying to sellsomething, to get somebody to
hear something, or understandsomething, or shift something,
and hypnosis is just one of theways that I can do that. So it's
really a delivery system andhypnotic language, as you
(07:01):
discovered today, with youryoung client, with your young
patient, hypnosis is a way ofharnessing imagination, and it's
really, really helpful andreally easy with kids, because
they kind of naturally do thatanyway. So it's about how I
deliver what I want to deliverin a way that's interesting or
(07:24):
creative or sometimessurprising, and harnessing those
wonderful imaginative qualitiesand creative qualities that kids
and adults have. Actuallywhat I find interesting is a lot
of therapists now talk about howimportant is to feel your
feelings, how to get overanxiety, or how to move through
feelings that are unwanted. Youactually have to embrace them,
(07:46):
and you have to feel them. But Ithink you describe it
beautifully in your book, thathypnosis, you actually do the
opposite. You want to disconnecton purpose. And so thinking that
disconnection can actually be atool, I found really interesting
to thinkabout well, and that's the
thing, is that hypnosis fearsnothing. And so again, when I'm
(08:06):
doing hypnosis, I am trying tooffer the message that the
person needs. So sometimes themessage is like, if you're
giving somebody a shot.
Sometimes the message isdisconnection. We're going to
leave your arm here and take therest of you to that soccer
(08:28):
field. Sometimes it's aboutconnection, because there are
certain situations or ailmentsthat we deal with in which
connecting somebody back totheir body is also important. So
whatever they're doing, we andthis is what I'm doing as a
therapist too. Whatever they'redoing, I am trying to create a
(08:50):
session that offers aninterruption to the pattern, a
better way of doing things. Soan example of a situation in
which connection might be. Thegoal is, say, I'm working with a
dad. And this dad, the mom,comes in, and the family is
(09:11):
working on anxiety or whatever,and this dad is like, look, my
kid is a baby. Boys aren'tsupposed to cry, and when he
gets upset, I just need to tunehim out. I just I can't even
tolerate his emotions. Nowthat's not really a good way to
(09:31):
parent. So the mom might sayhe's really mean, like our child
is struggling, or he's asensitive kid, and he cries, and
my husband just dismisses him.
Well, then I might do a hypnosissession with the dad that is
about, how do we connect?
Because he's already got thedisconnection thing down pat. So
(09:54):
it might be being able to talkto him about the importance of.
Of being there for his son. Howdo different animals connect
with their young? I might talkabout that. I might talk about
how you handle a situation inwhich you really want to leave
(10:14):
the situation but it's importantfor you to stick around. I mean,
there's all sorts of examples ofthat. So sometimes for sure the
goal is connection, andsometimes for sure the goal is
disconnection.
So interesting, yeah, forsomeone like me who may not know
what hypnosis is actually like,what is hypnosis actually feel
(10:37):
like for a child? Is it likebeing in a trance? Is it like
being in a guided Daydream painta picture for us what a hypnosis
session would look like.
So it depends how old the childis, because developmentally, it
can be very different. And what,what I talk about, and what you
proudly did today is that youfocused on being hypnotic,
(11:00):
rather than doing hypnosis. Andbeing hypnotic means that you
use your language, maybe youchange your voice a little bit.
It's an invitation. So beinghypnotic is an invitation to use
your imagination. If I'm doingwith a little kid, if I'm doing
(11:20):
it with a six year old and I'mhelping them get ready because
they have to go and get someteeth pulled, or they're having
difficulty falling asleep atnight because they're so worried
about monsters under the bed, orthey have a chronic health issue
that they need to deal with in adifferent way, I am going To
invite them into using theirimagination. And so I might even
(11:43):
say, Hey, I've got a story totell you. Do you want me to tell
you a story? Alright, sit back,and I just want you to listen to
this story. And then I starttalking, and my voice changes a
little bit, and I slow down alittle bit, and I pull them into
the story. Their eyes may bewide open. They may be, you
(12:04):
know, looking right at me, orthey may be moving around.
People have an idea thathypnosis. You're sitting there,
you're perfectly still, youreyes are closed, you're in a
trance. As we get older, that'soften how it looks. But with
little kids, it's very fluid.
Once kids get older, then Imight say, alright, we're going
(12:24):
to work on doing something like,let's take the shot example.
We're going to work on doingsomething that's going to help
you get your vaccination. Sohere's what I want you to do. I
want you to sit back. I want youto close your eyes. I want you
to get absorbed in thisconversation. And again, I'm
inviting them into something,but it's going to be a little
(12:48):
bit more structured. And whenI'm doing a hypnosis session,
the way I was trained and how Ihave practiced, and what the
book is about is that it is verystructured and I am laying it
out. I have a process that I'mgoing through. I'm not just
(13:08):
talking willy nilly. I reallyhave an idea of how I set it up,
how I deliver the message, how Icement the message, how I do
that post hypnotic suggestionthat says, now the next time
that you're in situation X,you'll be able to experience why
(13:29):
all of that is very, veryspecific and very, very clear in
my mind. So there's a lot ofparticular elements to a
hypnosis session that I'm reallypaying attention to, and that's
just a testament to the trainingthat I had early on. Yeah. So it
(13:50):
sounds like when you providehypnosis as a therapeutic
session, you really have to planahead of time what the therapy
session is going to be like. Youjust don't go in willy nilly and
guide them through hypnosis?
Well, sort of I may know I'mgoing to do hypnosis, but
because I've been doing this forsuch a long time, I am
interviewing them, and I amcreating the session in my head.
(14:14):
So I am listening for words. Iam listening for potential
metaphors to use. I am listeningto the way that they take in
information. I am listening toall of that, and then I'm
creating the session as I'mtalking to them. Usually I might
interview somebody for 10 or 15minutes, and then I do the
session, which I always record.
I always record my sessions sothat people can have them, that
(14:37):
they can listen to them later,that they can refer to them if
I'm doing sessions with kids,I'm always happy to have parents
in the room, but then if, say,one parent couldn't be there,
but they want to hear, what didI do, they can listen to the
session later, but I'm creatingthe session in my head as I'm
listening to the client. As I'minterviewing I'm asking
(14:58):
specific. Specific questions.
I'm gathering information sothat I can put it all together.
That's the fun of it. Actually,for me, it's very it's very
creative.
Is there a particular age whereyou find it's most helpful with
kids? I know little kids inparticular, I'm thinking they
have such vivid imaginations,but it might also benefit
(15:18):
teenagers who tend to have moreworries in their heads.
Yeah, we're all the above, allthe above. You just have to be
able to adapt your style to theteenager. What I talk about in
the book is how it's differentwith little kids, and they're
easy, like, I don't even use theword hypnosis. Sometimes with
them, I'm like, Hey, you want tohear a story, you want to do
something. And they're all inolder kids, sometimes teenagers,
(15:42):
they're kind of curious aboutit. Remember that hypnosis is
just the delivery method. So ifI have a child who needs to get
a cavity filled, or a childwho's getting chemotherapy, or a
child who is having difficultyhitting their siblings, I'm can
do a session with that. If I'vegot a teenager that is
struggling with depression,teenager who's using self harm,
(16:05):
teenager who is having a reallyhard time expressing their
feelings to people who need tohear their feelings, teenager
who wants to do better in schoolbut is having a difficult time
getting their homework Done.
Whatever the problem is, I canuse the hypnosis as a way of
delivering the message.
(16:26):
And what do most patients thatyou take care of? What do most
kids say about how they feelafterwards? Do they realize they
were in a hypnosis or does itjust feel like play to them? Is
there a common consensus thatyou hear from your patients so
for older kids, like, startingat the age of nine or so. And
you asked, What's a good age?
Nine is such a good age? Like, Ijust love nine year olds. You
(16:46):
know, you know nine year olds,they're just so great. I know, I
know they're the best, but theywill say, like, wow, that was
cool. Or I, I can't remembereverything that you said, but I
could hear everything you said.
And one of the questions that Ioften ask at the end is I'll
(17:07):
say, without looking at theclock, do you have a sense of
how long I was talking to you?
And they'll say, like, 10minutes. And I'll go, no, 35 and
they're like, Wow. So they havethis distorted sense of time,
which is cool. And I'll say tothem, Do you Do you remember
what we talked about? Andsometimes they say yes, and
(17:27):
sometimes they say no. Idefinitely check in with people
during the session, so I'mmaking sure that they're getting
the message that I'm deliveringso they remember that you think
generally they come in, they'relike, that was cool, or that was
different than I thought. Orthey'll say, How do I know I was
hypnotized? And then I'll say,how long was I talking to you?
(17:49):
And they say, 10 minutes. I go,No, 35 minutes. So I can tell
you I've been doing this for along time. I've done hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds ofhypnosis sessions, and with
very, very, very few exceptions,I can really only remember one,
and it was a grown up. Mostpeople have a very positive
experience with it.
(18:14):
It's amazing. Are there certainpediatric issues that you find
hypnosis works best with? So forexample, specific phobias, or
you'd mentioned self harm ordepression, any particular type
of anxiety that you've noticed,notice better outcomes.
Probably specific phobias. It'sreally helpful. Needle phobia,
(18:36):
it's really helpful with forsure, pediatric emergency rooms
and a lot of oncology practices,chemotherapy. Use it for side
effects, for medication, forcancer treatment. Use it for
there's a lot of research on itseffectiveness in spinal taps or
(18:59):
lung bar lumbar punctures,emergency rooms use it for
stitches, for injury, for justbringing things down when
somebody needs to be stillduring a procedure. So there's
all those medical applicationsfor sure in my field, certainly
(19:19):
for anxiety, being able to dealwith worry. But my whole goal
when I'm dealing with with achild with anxiety, is to not
try and get rid of anything. Sothe more you try and get rid of
it, the more you say you're notgoing to worry anymore, or
(19:39):
you're going to feel calm andrelaxed as you take this test.
That is not what I'm doing withhypnosis. It is not about
creating relaxation or creatingcalmness. And in fact, there's a
talk that I do a lot calledBeyond calming down, and it's
about using hypnosis in a waythat doesn't support. Support
(20:00):
this idea that we need to becalm and relaxed. What I am
doing is I am saying we aregoing to help you with hypnosis.
Be more flexible, becauserigidity is a huge problem in
anxiety. We're going to help youtolerate uncertainty. I'm going
to tell them stories aboutstepping in to situations in
(20:23):
which you don't know exactlywhat's going to happen. So
again, I'm delivering all thesame messages, but I'm doing it
hypnotically. I'm usingmetaphors. I'm using stories.
I'm talking to them about allthe ways they've already changed
since they were little, and howthis is going to just be another
(20:44):
opportunity for them to changesome patterns. So it's all about
delivering those messages. Thevery same thing goes for
particularly teenagers that aredealing with depression. There
are certain patterns that makeyou at risk for depression,
certain patterns that keepdepression going. And I can use
(21:06):
hypnosis as a way to offer analternative to those patterns,
and it's usually with me tellingstories, giving examples,
talking about the pattern ratherthan the content, and then
offering this suggestion, posthypnotic suggestion, that says,
(21:26):
the next time you find yourselfin a situation in which you're
experiencing this, wouldn't itbe interesting if you allowed
yourself to experience thisinstead? So it's all I'm playing
with language, I'm creating anexperience in which they are
feeling differently in my officethan they felt before, and I'm
(21:50):
using all of that stuff, all ofthose experiences, to support
the idea that you can change andthat's a critical message for
anxious and depressed kids toget
I think you say it so nicely inyour book when you talk about
how hypnosis is a bridge frombeing stuck to solutions,
(22:12):
because I do find that for somany of us, the problem is we
just get stuck in our heads andwe aren't solution oriented. And
this is such a nice avenue toconsider
well. And you know, the thing,the thing that's interesting to
me about using hypnosis is thatI'm saying a lot of the things
that are pretty common sensical.
You know, if you're giving ashot, what's the message that
(22:34):
you want to give to a childwho's afraid of needles?
This may bother you, but you cando it right,
and that it's gonna hurt alittle bit, but
be better off for it on theother end, more protected,
right?
And it's tolerable, and you'llget through it right? So that's
the message you want to deliver.
So say you were delivering thatin a hypnotic way. You might
(22:58):
talk about how interesting it isthat different parts of our
bodies feel different ways atdifferent times. And isn't it
kind of cool how if you arerunning around outside and
having a great time with yourfriends, and then you come in
later and you notice you have ascratch on your leg, and maybe
(23:21):
it's even bleeding a little bit,and you think I didn't even
notice when I got that scratch.
It's so cool, isn't it? So youtell that story, and you're
delivering the message of, isn'tit interesting how sensations
are different at different timesin different circumstances,
(23:42):
right?
It's so true. I say thatactually, without hearing,
having heard your example, I saythat all the time with kids, I
noticed a lot of bruises ontheir shins, or you see, as you
said, scratch marks. And I'llsay, when did that happen? And
most of the time, they have norecollection of right, hurt
themselves. But you're right,when they're when they're
getting their shots, they thinka lot about it. They really
anticipate the pain. They dreadthe sensation. And probably in
(24:05):
most situations, it was not asbad as that time when they did
get the big bruise on theirlegs,
right, right. And so you can useall of that experience as a way
to just talk about withcuriosity. Isn't it cool that
bump, bump, bump, bump, bump,right? Isn't it interesting? And
you're pulling them into this ina way that's very different than
(24:27):
saying, Okay, so we're going togive you a shot, and it's
necessary that you have thisvaccination, because it protects
you from disease, and it reallywon't hurt for very long. And
let's do all these distractiontechniques and blah, blah, blah,
although distraction can behelpful for sure, as you know,
but we're really creating thisatmosphere of curiosity and
almost kind of delight, like,isn't it so astounding how blah
(24:53):
blah blah blah blah, right?
That's what I'm doing. I'm justplaying with those things that
human beings do on a regularbasis. And. I did an episode
recently on fluster klux abouthypnosis, and I think I told the
story on that episode of thetime that I was running through
my house, I clipped the side ofa wood table with my toe. You
know how you do that? And itkills. I was lying down on the
(25:13):
rug in my living room. My kidswere little, and I said to my
kids, I'm going to the top ofthe mountain in Montana. It's a
mountain called Great Northern.
I'm going to the top of GreatNorthern. I'll be back in a
minute. And they were like,okay, yeah. And I just lied
there. I just took myself out ofmy body for a little while, went
(25:34):
to the top of the mountain. Mytoes still hurt, but I wasn't
panicking. I wasn't freakingout. And then I came back and
things were much better. Let'ssay someone's hearing your story
and they think, Okay, thissounds great. Should they
visualize where they want to gobefore the moment? So for
example, right now, should I sayto myself, Okay, I like the
beach. Should I take myself togoing to the beach the next time
(25:54):
I hurt myself?
Yeah, sure. So you have it inyour back pocket. So I my
favorite place to be is on thetop of mountains. I love hiking
up mountains, so of course, I'mgoing to go to a mountain. You
love the beach. So somebodymight say, Oh, I love to play
tennis, so I'm just going toimagine whacking the most
perfect backhand ever. Somebodyelse might say, Oh, I love
(26:15):
riding my horse, so I'm justgoing to put myself on my horse.
Or I love canoeing. Doesn'tmatter. I love ice cream. So I'm
going to imagine, you know,licking an ice cream cone so you
have it in your back pocket. Andit's fun to do that with kids
too. You can say, okay, so whenwe go into this situation, like,
maybe you have a cavity, or youhave to get a shot, or you have
(26:36):
to, whatever, let's just imaginefor a moment, where would we
take ourselves if we wanted alittle break from this
situation? Yeah, and I don't. Ihonestly, just so you know, in
in the use of my hypnosis, Idon't use this whole going to a
(26:56):
safe place very often when I'mdoing anxiety, when I'm working
with anxiety and depression,there's a lot of stuff in
hypnosis that is actually prettysimplistic to me. So, you know,
imagine yourself in a safeplace, or imagine yourself
walking through a forest. Youknow, I'm like, Okay, here we
go. It really is about creatingsomething or having somebody
(27:19):
come up with their ownexperience, and you helping them
create their own experience.
That's the opposite of what'skeeping them stuck. Yeah,
so for a parent who can't find atrained provider right away,
yeah, I'm thinking of an examplein my own family. Last night, my
nine year old had a really badcanker sore and I did all the
(27:41):
pediatrician and mom things forher. I gave her ibuprofen, I
gave her a topical medicine toput on her, canker, sort of
helper, and she was stillcomplaining about it. Is there
something I could have done tohelp her, use her imagination or
sort of a hypnotic therapy todisconnect her from that
discomfort?
Yeah, so you could have said,Okay, so I've done all the
things that we can do to make itfeel better, but it's not going
(28:05):
to feel perfect, and right now,why don't we imagine you could
either say, taking thediscomfort and putting in a
little box, or you could alsosay, let's take the part of your
brain that's really focusing onthe discomfort, and put that
somewhere else too. So you couldsay, like, oh, here comes whiny
(28:28):
Wanda, right? We've got, oh,boy, she's really focused on the
canker sore. What you focus on,you amplify. That's one of the
key rules of hypnosis andpsychotherapy, actually. And so
you say, oh, there's that whinypart of you that's really paying
attention to this and reallythinking about it, so let's call
it whiny Wanda. Where shall weput whiny Wanda? Should we put
her in a soundproof booth?
Should we put her blah blah? Andyou can play with it in that
(28:50):
way. So you're not saying we'regoing to take all of the
discomfort away, but we're goingto shift your focus away from
this part of it. Right? Thatwould be something that that we
might do. So thefirst time that I heard of
hypnosis being utilized in themedical community, where it's
been more legitimized, has beenhypnosis with moms who want to
have a non medicated labor.
(29:15):
That's me, and I've talked to alot of moms where it's been very
successful. Yeah, I hadboth my kids using hypnosis, as
you can imagine,you did wait so, yeah, amazing,
yeah, because I guide youthrough it. Or did you do it on
your own?
I mean, it's so I had thingsthat I would imagine, and so I
would just put myself into thatlittle trance state the second
(29:36):
time with my second son, who wasa big boy, right? I'm not a I'm
not a big person. He was like,he was an over an eight pounder.
I had six hour labors with bothmy kids, and at one point, the
midwife said to me, I was at theBirthing Center here in Concord,
and the midwife said, said tome, like, Hey, we're going to
(29:58):
need a little something fromyou. Mm. Right? I mean, like,
he's, he's here. I was like,fully dilated. They're like, you
know, I mean, we hate to disturbyou, but we need you to, we need
you to sort of push a littlebit. I was like, oh, okay, yeah,
thoseare pretty incredible. That's
really cool. You've been usinghypnosis. You've used it in your
(30:18):
life for many situations. Itsounds like where it's been
beneficial.
Oh, for sure. Yeah, I've used itover and over again. I've used
it for pain, I've used it forchildbirth, I've used it for
medical procedures. I've used iton my kids, my husband.
Yeah, amazing, amazing. And whenyou think back to using hypnosis
(30:38):
with your patients or with yourclients, do you have a favorite
story that sticks out, or maybea case that really has stuck
with you, where you've noticedthat hypnosis made a big
difference in their anxiety orin their well being?
Yeah. So there was this one boy,he had been to a lot of
therapists before, he had beenreally therapized, and they were
(31:01):
working on his anxiety. This wasa kid that had a great
difficulty getting into school,which is not unusual for me and
my area of specialty. He washaving a really hard time making
friends. His life had justgotten smaller and smaller and
smaller because of his anxiety.
He had had a lot of therapy. Hehad been on medication and off
(31:22):
medication. His parents werejust beside themselves. They
were such nice, loving parents.
They didn't know what to do. Sohe came to see me, and I said,
let's do some hypnosis. After I,you know, met with him a few
times, and I did a session withhim that talked about the
ability to do something that youdidn't think was possible. And
(31:46):
there are all sorts of stories Ihave for that. So I talked to
him about running a four minutemile, which is a story I march
out a lot with kids, how nobodybelieved it was possible to run
a four minute mile. And thenRoger Banister ran the four
minute mile. And then all theseother people ran the four minute
mile that nobody believedlooking up at the moon, that it
(32:07):
would be possible for humanbeings to walk on the moon. And
then, sure enough, astronautswalked on the moon, you know,
stories on and on and on, andthen connecting it to him, that
just because, basically themessage was that there are all
sorts of things that peoplebelieve over centuries, that
(32:30):
people believe human beingsbelieve. And isn't it
interesting when we startbusting those beliefs? And then
I'm going to say, I wonder whatbeliefs you've been carrying
about you that maybe are worthbusting. I wonder how you can
begin to see things in adifferent way that maybe you
(32:50):
haven't seen them before. Iwonder what messages you've
gotten, just like everybody gotabout the four minute mile or
the moon or polio. I wonder whatyou can begin to see as possible
that maybe you never knew waspossible. And then I would say,
and so the next time that you'restepping into a situation where
(33:13):
your worry shows up and says,This isn't possible, I wonder if
you'll think about Roger or themoon, or, you know, other
stories I told him, and I wonderhow that will change the way you
think about you. So that was thesession I did. I recorded it. He
had it to listen to. I did a fewmore after that, just sort of
reinforcing that. And withinabout two months, he was back in
(33:36):
school. He was riding the schoolbus, he took up an instrument
and was playing in the schoolorchestra. Huge, huge changes.
And it was all the things that Ihad been telling him, but there
was a message of this ispossible that he really needed
to hear. Instead of hearing,this is what's wrong with you.
(33:58):
You have all these diagnoses.
These are the things, oh mygosh, your brain doesn't work,
right? Blah, blah, blah. He hadto hear a message of, this is
what's possible. And for somereason, delivering things in
this hypnotic way seems to, youknow, like uncork the bottle.
And I don't even know how itworks. I don't even know it's
(34:18):
just, it's just a pretty cooltool.
Well, it sounds so positive, itsounds so glass is half full.
And I do feel like mindsetreally makes a big difference.
So it makes sense to me why thiswould work. Because I do feel
like the more you're looking forgood things to happen to you in
your life, you find those goodthings, those good things start
(34:39):
to happen to you. On the on theflip side, the more you start
thinking that bad things aregoing to happen to you, you'll
find those bad things. So Ithink messaging that you're
giving,yeah, and that that right there,
Jessica, would be a greathypnosis session, right? So
somebody comes in to see you,and you know that they have a
pessimistic view of the world.
(34:59):
We know. That depressed peopleand anxious people have a really
hard time imagining a positivefuture. When they go into their
imagination, they don't pullthat stuff up. So then you do a
session with somebody on thatvery theme of, isn't it
interesting that when we lookfor good things, we see them,
and when we look for bad things,we see them. And there's a
(35:20):
gazillion examples of that,right? So yeah, what's the
difference between somebody whogoes for a walk in their
neighborhood and just noticesFrank isn't mowing his lawn the
way I wanted to, or, boy, thatmailbox looks terrible. Oh boy,
Phyllis still has herValentine's decorations out in
its March. Or somebody who goesfor a walk in the neighborhood
and is like, oh my gosh, look atthose chipmunks. Or, oh, look
(35:44):
like, obviously, so and so'shome from college because the
basketballs are all over thefront lawn. You could do a
whole, a whole hypnosis sessionabout what glasses we're wearing
as we're walking through theworld.
Yes. And I'm thinking, I hopeI'm not Person A that you
described. You want to be aroundpeople that have good, positive
energy. It's sort of, it's asnowball effect, right? The more
(36:07):
you think positively, the moreyou're looking for the good to
happen. It's a, it's a selffulfilling prophecy,
yeah, such a wonderful exampleof you saying, here's a message
that I think is really importantto deliver. And then I say,
okay, so how am I going todeliver that message
hypnotically? Hypnosis is justthe delivery system, and it's
(36:28):
just a fun, positive, often veryenjoyable experience for people
to get a message delivered tothem. You know, some people
think about hypnosis forsmoking, right? And so what?
What's the message that you'regoing to get delivered when you
go to get hypnosis for for toend smoking, which is about 50%
(36:52):
effective, by the way, at best,so which is huge, yeah, that's
pretty darn good,right? I actually have a friend
who used hypnosis to quitsmoking. She smoked for almost
20 years, and it was effective.
It actually got herto stop, yeah, and so I would
wonder, I would ask her, like,what was the message that was
delivered? Right? Maybe shedoesn't know, but what was the
message that was delivered? Andwe know to stop smoking. You
(37:15):
probably know this, the researchshows that talking about the
health effects of smokingdoesn't really have that big an
impact, but talking about theimpact of your smoking on other
people has more of an impact.
And maybe she stopped smokingbecause the person doing the
hypnosis session was able tobring home for her in a way she
(37:37):
hadn't heard before how annoyingother people find her smoking, I
don't know, but that would bethe message that I would
deliver. So we're reallyfocusing on, what are we saying
to people? What are we saying tokids that allows them to do
something differently,amazing? Yeah, it's such a
(37:57):
great tool to learn about. AndI'm thinking, for people that
are listening and they'reinterested in using hypnosis, do
you know where they could findsomebody who's trained in
hypnosisto experience hypnosis? Like to
go to a practitioner? So there'sif
you're a parent who like, let'ssay you're a parent who's
listening, and your child hassome specific phobias, and you
want to use hypnosis as a as atool, how can they start finding
(38:21):
somebody that they trust andthat's experienced and good at
hypnosis? Yeah.
So a good place to go is theAmerican Society of Clinical
hypnosis, otherwise known asash. And there are some other
organizations too, the Nationalpediatric Hypnosis Training
Institute, otherwise known asnifty. They do a lot of training
(38:45):
for people interested inpediatric hypnosis, and they
probably have a referral basethere too. So that's another
good place to start. Here's thething, do not go to somebody for
hypnosis who is not clinicallytrained. So this is the other
problem with hypnosis, is thatyou can go and get certified in
(39:07):
hypnosis by going to a weekendcourse. It's sort of like being
able to get certified as aparent coach in 40 hours or
something, right? So, so thereare very different levels of
training. Hypnosis is notregulated. You don't have to
have a license to do it. You andI to have our licenses for our
(39:29):
professions. We have to dothings all the time to prove
that we are competent at ourjobs. You don't want to go to
somebody who calls themselves acertified hypnotist or a
certified hypnotherapist, ifthey also aren't qualified as a
(39:50):
medical or mental healthprofessional? Yeah, that's how
you want to make the difference.
And I'm just thinking a lot ofpatients, when their kids have
anxiety, you. They don't knowwhat to do next, and they don't
know that there are otherexisting tools out there. So I
think this is, this is sohelpful to know about. So thank
you so so much for spreading theword.
You're so welcome. The otherthing too that parents can do,
(40:14):
and it's not like I'm humping myown book because of all the
books I've written, My hypnosisbook has sold far less copies
than any other book, justbecause it's kind of a niche
market. But the book that Iwrote, I think my mom said to
me, when she read it, everygrandparent should read this
(40:35):
book, because the language init, it helps you introduce this
idea of using your language in away that helps kids. And so it
is full of ideas and languageand examples that help parents
too. So it's a great book toread if you're interested in
learning clinically how to dohypnosis, but also if you're a
(40:56):
parent thinking like, How can Ilearn to use language in that
way? I really filled it with allsorts of examples that I think
are very digestible for a parentwanting to learn how to how to
use this tool, just like you didwith your daughter, right?
This is a very, very usefulbook. I agree with your mom. Oh,
(41:17):
well,my mom likes this book better
than this is her favorite bookof mine, and she always says to
me, you shouldn't have puthypnosis on the cover. That's
why people don't read it. Andshe's probably right about that,
but it's what the book is about.
So Ithink it's very cool. I'm very,
very proud of you, and I willmake sure and link the book in
the description of the podcast.
It's called using hypnosis withchildren. Lynn, you are such a
(41:38):
gift. You're such a gem. I feelso lucky to have this
conversation with you, and thankyou so much for being a guest
again on this podcast.
I really appreciate you.
I will come back anytime. Andyou also have to come back on
fluster klux too, because youare a guest on my podcast, and
people love the episode that youdid on our podcast, so we're
gonna have to make that happentoo
well. Thank you so much. You'rewelcome. Thank you for
(41:59):
listening, and I hope youenjoyed this week's episode of
your child is normal. Also, ifyou could take a moment and
leave a five star review,wherever it is you listen to
podcasts, I would greatlyappreciate it. It really makes a
difference to help this podcastgrow. You can also follow me on
Instagram at ask Dr Jessica.
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