August 18, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode of Your Child is Normal, Jessica Hochman, MD, talks with Amy Chinian, founder of My Hair Helpers, about the truth behind lice—what they are, how they really spread, and why they have nothing to do with hygiene. Together, they bust common myths (spoiler: you can stop bagging stuffed animals for two weeks), explain the most effective ways to check for lice, and share safe, non-toxic treatment options. Whether you’ve been through a lice outbreak or just want to be prepared, this conversation will help you.
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Unknown (00:00):
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Hi everyone, and welcome back toyour child is normal. I'm your
host and pediatrician, DrJessica Hochman, so today we're
discussing a topic that makesmany people start scratching
(00:41):
their heads the moment they hearthe name head lice. But did you
know that much of what we thinkwe know about lice is actually
myth and misinformation? So tohelp us separate fact from
fiction, I'm joined by Amychinnian. She's a lice expert,
and she's worked with many, manyfamilies to demystify this very
normal and very treatablechildhood issue. So in today's
episode, we'll talk about whatlice are and what they aren't,
(01:02):
how they really are spread,which treatments actually work,
and how parents can feel calmerand more confident if lice
happened to show up in yourfamily. Now, I hope I don't make
anyone start scratching by mesaying this, but let's start
talking about head lice. AmyChaney, and welcome to your
child as normal. Thank you somuch for being here.
I am so excited to be here. Ilove talking to pediatricians,
(01:25):
so I am looking forward to thisconversation. Specifically. I
want to help everybodyunderstand about lice, what lice
is. I can't wait to bust somemyths with you about lice, and
then I would love for everybodyto know about you and what you
do. So first, can you tell usabout what you do at lice
helpers and how you got intothis work in the first place?
(01:47):
Okay, the name of my company ismy hair helpers. And I started
17 years ago. I had a licecrisis in 2000 with my fifth
daughter, I was pregnant and myhair was itching, and I had not
grown up with lice. I didn'treally know much about it. I
(02:09):
didn't know how normal it was,and honestly, I didn't know that
there a bug could actually livein your hair. So when my hair
was itching, I had a friend atmy house, and she looked at my
hair, and she said, Well, you'vegot head lice. I said, What? How
could that be like? How doesthis bug live in my hair? How
did it get there? I had amillion questions. And so that
(02:32):
kind of started my journey. Ihired the only company I could
find. There was only one ladythat had started a company. She
de loused all four kids andmyself. And I didn't really
remember much of thatexperience, but I just remember,
Oh, thank God, it's out. So atmy hair helpers, we use non
(02:55):
toxic products. We put them onthe hair, we section it, we go
through with the fine toothcomb. You know, it takes maybe
an hour, maybe two hours, so youleave our salon knowing it's
gone, which is beautiful. Soas a pediatrician, I'm very
familiar with lice. I know thatit's a very normal, common
occurrence with children, withfamilies, but I do find that
(03:18):
there's a lot of shame aroundlice. I think a lot of parents,
they all dread getting an emailfrom school that there's a case
in the classroom. Or I meet alot of parents that don't want
to talk about it. They want tokeep it a secret. They don't
want their friends and familymembers to know, because they
worry about how they're going tobe perceived if someone else
finds out that their kid haslice in their hair. Why do you
(03:40):
think this came to be? Why, inyour opinion, is there so much
shame around lice?
Well, there, there are a lot ofmyths surrounding lice. So when
I first started my company and Iwas doing research on lice, I
was shocked at just thediffering things I was reading,
that they didn't match up withthe CDC. They didn't match up
(04:03):
with what people were saying. Imean, the myths are just crazy.
I'm so excited to talk to youfor this reason, because I agree
there are many, many myths outthere about lice. So is it okay
if we go through them? Oh yeah,I'd love to absolutely okay. So
the first question I have foryou, is lice related to hygiene
(04:23):
at all? Is it true that gettinga diagnosis of lice comes from
not being clean enough, notshowering enough, for example?
So I will tell you this, thathygiene has zero to do with
lice. It's about being at thewrong place, at the wrong time.
It's head to head contact, onlywhich most people don't know.
(04:44):
It's not living in yourenvironment. You're not living
in a dirty house that has licecrawling around. It's simply
head to head contact, they loveclean hair, they love dirty
hair. They love curly hair. Theylove straight hair. They love
babies. They love. Grandmas.
They're equal opportunity bugs.
They will go to anybody.
(05:04):
So this is great to know. So ithas nothing to do with hygiene.
Will you say that again, nothingto do with hygiene. But I will
tell you is that sometimespeople have a lot of children.
They're living in smallquarters. All it takes is, you
know, one case of lice to spreadquickly to the rest of the
family.
So that's interesting, that yousay that they like head to head
(05:28):
contact. So a lot of times wegive advice for kids not to
share hats, not to sharehelmets, not to share bedding.
Does that mean that that's amyth as well.
I would say that 99% of lice ispassed head to head. The other
1% we don't know, and I wouldnot tell you that a hat is a
good way of transporting lice,because they're not very
(05:51):
coordinated. They can't justhang on in a hat and then the
next person puts the hat on.
They like long, dangling hair,and that's how they travel. And
the way I know this is because Igo to lice conferences once a
year, and I'm with the worldexperts in lice, and I always
ask them, Why is this somisunderstood? Why does
everybody think it's in hats?
(06:14):
It's in furniture? They need theblood to survive. If they end up
on a couch or somewhere, ahairbrush, they're going to die
quickly. And I asked theexperts, what's the 1% you know,
if 99% is passed head to head,what's that 1% they didn't know.
They said, I don't know, but weknow that it's head to head
(06:35):
contact.
That's fascinating. There's asaying that goes around the
pediatrician community. We'llsay that which kids wear we do
not share. So that sounds likeit may not be entirely true,
that sharing things, or sharinghats in particular, might not be
the greatest source of spreadinglice. That's so interesting
to me. Maybe a hairbrush, youknow, but they did studies in
(06:57):
the hair, on the lice and hairbrushes and their legs were
broken, the lice under themicroscope, their legs were all
broken. Now here's somethinginteresting. This is going to
prove my point. During covid,when all the kids were six feet
apart, I did not have one newcase of lice. The only cases I
had were cases that were leftover from kids in school. Had
(07:19):
been, you know, breeding intheir hair for a few months. But
like I said, all of usnitpickers got together, and
we're like, see, we told you,during covid, nobody got lice.
They were all six feet apart.
Okay, so that's interesting.
That makes sense, that head tohead contact would be the
primary source of spread. Istill have a hard time, you
know, it's still ingrained in menot to share hair brushes and
(07:41):
not to share hats, but I thinkthat's really interesting, that
that's the primary way that it'sspread. And it makes sense, as
you said, that the lice like tofeed on the scalp.
Well, what I like to tell mycustomers, when I see them face
to face, I'll say, I want you toknow lice is not living in your
home, and it's not living inyour bedding. It's not living in
(08:02):
your couch. If it falls off ontoone of those areas, it's dead or
dying. And I tell them, it'snice to have a clean home. It
just doesn't impact lice. Youcan go nuts on your house. Clean
it. That feels good, but there'snot going to be an outbreak of
lice because you didn't cleanyour home. It has to do with
checking every family member,making sure every family member
(08:25):
is clear. That's how you getlice back. And you get lice back
from your friendship group. Yourkids brought home lice because
they had a friend with lice.
That's how you get it, notbecause you didn't clean your
home, or you didn't scoureverything, and I found that so
interesting, suchmisinformation.
It reminds me of illnesses,colds. For example, you get
(08:48):
colds from other humans. Youdon't get colds from sitting on
your couch, from from touchingother things. Generally, yeah,
yeah. The most, the most commonway to get them is from somebody
else that's sick, from your kidhanging out with somebody else
who has a cold, right? Youknow, this is the most
misunderstood bug which I whichis why I love talking about it.
For example, the eggs, the netsthat the lice lay, they can't
(09:09):
even hatch off your hair. So thewhole fact of bagging stuff up
for two weeks, I just imaginesome poor little child with
their stuffy, and they can'thave their stuffy for two weeks
because the parents think thatthat they're in the stuffed
animals. I mean, it's just thisinformation got circulated years
ago, and so I'm just here tobust it.
(09:34):
When I was a kid, I remember ourfamily had an outbreak of lice.
Myself and my two sisters and mymom did put all of our stuffed
animals in a bag, all of oursheets in a bag. And I remember
that very clearly, because Imissed having my toys to play
with. So so interesting to knowthat that didn't make a
difference.
Doesn't make any difference. ButI tell people, if it makes a
(09:56):
difference in your mental state,by all means, clean your home.
Mm. Yeah.
So just in conclusion, ifparents want to vacuum, if they
want to clean, if they want towash all the bedding, it may be
overkill, but it's not going tocontribute to worsening of the
spread of lice, but it's havinga clean home never hurt anyone.
It'snot going to solve your life's
problem, but it's going to serveit's going to solve your anxiety
(10:17):
because you did itfair enough, and that's and
that's worth something rightnow. How about how lice move?
How they transport themselves?
Do they jump or fly from head tohead?
Okay, so the anatomy of a lifebug is that they have three legs
on each side of their body. Theythey don't have wings. They
(10:39):
can't fly, thank God. And theycan't jump. They have no back
legs, so they crawl veryquickly. All it takes is your
child, you know, hugging anotherchild, looking at a maybe a book
or computer screen together,sitting on a couch together,
boom, crawls over.
What I'm learning here is thatlong hair plays more of a factor
(11:00):
in the spread of lice than Irealized.
I mean, they're equalopportunity, for sure, but long
hair is a swinging bridge forthe lice to crawl across. It
makes it a little easier.
Now, can you bust this myth? Forme, are pets a source of lice?
So for example, if my headtouches a dog, can my dog be a
source that spreads lice withinmy home, absolutely
(11:22):
not. Dogs have a different bodytemperature and a different bug
that loves them, fleas. And wedon't carry fleas around and
they don't carry lice around. Wecan't interchange the two bugs.
Thisis great to know, so dogs and
pets do not need to be treated.
And it sounds like lice are onlyspread via human to human
(11:44):
contact. That's right, that'sright. I do get questions, like
one lady threw her mattress out,and I'm thinking she's got them
confused with bed bugs.
Somebody's, you know, vacuuming,they're thinking about fleas. So
this, this bug. Your best tocheck every family member. Okay?
20% of men get lice. 80% of momsget lice.
(12:08):
Okay, so my next question is,what I would like parents to
know is, how can they checktheir children for lice? So
let's say they get that emailfrom school there's been a lice
outbreak. Where can they look onthe scalp to confirm a lice
diagnosis.
That's a very good question. Sothe first place you want to look
is the nape of the neck andbehind the ears. For some reason
(12:30):
it's nice and cozy and warmthere, and that is the first
place that the lice lay theireggs. They look like little
brown or clear egg sacs. And theway to tell if it's dandruff or
lice is that if it's dandruff,it flakes off and falls a lice,
egg is not going to come offunless you pull it down with
(12:51):
your nails. It's glued on thereso that it can hatch. And the
best way to know is to take yourfingernails and slide it over.
Is it feel bumpy? Is it glued atan angle? And you can check your
child for lice. The best way toalso check is to use a good lice
comb, because sometimes a bugjust passed and is hiding in
(13:14):
there. They haven't laid eggsyet. And say, you find out, Oh,
my kid's been exposed to lice.
The only way to know is to wetthe hair. I use like a mint
shampoo and detangle the hairand just go through comb your
kids scalp, swiping on a whitepaper towel, they look like
little strawberry seeds. Andanother fact that people don't
realize is that lice like toreturn to the same heads. It's a
(13:37):
scent they leave behind, andthey're more prone to go back to
your child once you've hadlives. And so what I tell
parents, if you have a childprone to lies, they keep getting
it over and over. You know youcould have missed something, and
it's coming back. So the bestthing to do is, once a week,
take a peek. Okay, that's mymotto. Once a week, take a peek.
(13:57):
If you see somethinginteresting, and you don't know,
you can send me a picture. And Ialways welcome that I get a lot
of pictures of lice. Sometimes,when I'm out at a nice dinner
with my husband, I'll get apicture of lice, and I'll say,
excuse me one second.
I have a very weird life,but you sound very passionate
(14:20):
about it. And I'm also assumingit's possible that they're so
easy to miss one or two and theycould probably reinfect the
scalp that way, correct?
If you are doing a treatmentyourself, if you've decided to
get products and do a treatment,it is very hard to get
everything, and I don'trecommend chemicals. I don't use
(14:44):
toxins. They keep making therecipe stronger. So red and Nyx,
they just keep making thechemicals stronger and stronger,
and the lice are more and moreresistant. So what I do
differently is I have oil. Itsuffocates them, especially.
Special oil, special enzymes,and then we go through strand by
(15:04):
strand, combing everything out.
Now I have to admit to you, inmy home, one of my kids did have
lice a few years ago, and I diduse the over the counter
treatment. You know, we didretreat a couple weeks later
just to make sure it wasproperly treated. And it did
work in my situation. But I dohave to say, even though I know
(15:25):
the data has shown thatpermethrin, 1% is safe, I did
smell the chemicals, and I wouldprefer not to use chemicals. So
it's, it is nice to know aboutnon chemical options, so I I
definitely appreciate whatyou're doing.
Yeah, yeah. In the in here's alittle fact. The tiny bugs, the
tiniest one that's newly hatchedis called a nymph. They don't
(15:48):
have developed nervous systems.
So what if you're using a wordto counter treatment, it's not
going to kill them. It's notgoing to get them
because it doesn't have anythingin it to affect them.
Interesting. It's too early intheir life cycle. Now, a lot of
people ask me about homeremedies. Maybe they grew up
using mayonnaise. I've heardcoconut oil. I've heard about
(16:11):
vinegar. I even heard aboutVaseline, you know, covering the
hair in Vaseline as a way tosuffocate the lice. Do these
actuallywork? Well, what I tell my
customers is, if you usemayonnaise, you'll never look at
a sandwich the same. It's kindof gross and messy. The idea is,
you do want an oil and you dowant a good comb. So I tell my
customers, if I can't get to youtonight, just put some coconut
(16:34):
oil on your hair. That'll atleast hold you over until I
could see you, because no matterwhat you're using, you still
have to comb everything out.
And I know you touched on thisearlier, but what can people
expect a typical visit at licehelpers to be like you said. It
(16:56):
takes about an hour or two andyou gently comb through all of
the individual hair strands. Isthere anything else that you
want parentsto know? So when you come to my
salon, you are going to first ofall have a great experience.
Okay, they're all kid friendly.
We are going to put you in asalon chair, and we are going to
(17:16):
spray product on your hair. It'sgoing to smell like mint, and
first we check, we comb throughthe whole scalp to see if
there's anything in there. Andthe minute we find something, we
add more products. We use oilsand enzymes. And then the
technician is going to sectionthe hair and go through the
whole head. And then you'regoing to come back in five to
(17:36):
seven days, we're going to seeif there's been any more
exposure to lice. Okay, we wantto make sure that once you put
your child back in the sameenvironment, that they didn't
get it again.
It sounds good to me, yeah, andyou're so experienced with lice,
you've been dealing with headlice for so many years. What do
you wish that more pediatriciansand school nurses knew about
(17:59):
lice management?
So I would like them to knowfirst of all, how to diagnose
it. You've got to look atpictures see what it looks like.
You've got to use a rule ofthumb, when you're looking above
the ears, nape of the neck, doesit fall off easily? Does it
crumble when you touch it? Ifit's lumpy, when you run your
(18:22):
fingernails over it, it's lice.
And then I would like them toknow that the over the counter
products are not effectiveanymore, that people need to
find products that really work,enzymes and oils is what I use.
But there's got to be these.
Focus has to be checking everyfamily member, and not cleaning
(18:45):
and bagging and all that stuffthat makes you exhausted. You
have to just check the familyand then you have to just treat
them twice, okay, the firsttime, and then about a week
later, that that basically iswhat I want doctors and nurses
to know, and they need to studylice and see what it looks like
(19:10):
so that they can really diagnoseit.
I think that's a really goodpoint. I do agree, when my when
I send my kids to camp, thereare people that will double
check all of the scalps of thecampers before they enter camp,
and I can see they're notlooking at the nape of the neck
and behind the ears. They'relooking at the top of the head.
So I think that is reallyhelpful advice.
(19:30):
Yeah. I mean, I could spot anegg a mile away once you know
it. You know it. Ithink the most common question I
hear is that parents aren't surewhat is dandruff and what is
head lice. So Right? Iappreciate you bringing up the
point that lice really are hardto take off. Yeah, your
fingernails have to pinch it andpull it down. Yes. And can you
also talk about where on thescalp it's typically found? Yes,
(19:52):
so lice like to hang out abovethe ears. It's nice and warm
there. The first place that Icheck is above the. Ears, and
that's usually where we find themost amount of eggs, and the
nape of the neck and the crownof
the head, and about how far awayfrom the scalp will you find the
nets? So thenets are glued a quarter inch
from the scalp. So what happensis, the female louse comes over
(20:15):
to your hair, and they have tohave a male. They have to be
impregnated. And then whathappens is they are ready to
start laying eggs. So they layabout three eggs each time. They
lay eggs in about three times aday, and then those eggs hatch
in about seven days. And thenthe little nymph molts three
(20:35):
times and becomes an adult egglaying. Louse,
I'm thinking I want to come joinyou next time you go to your
yearly lice conference.
It's so much fun. I've never hada pediatrician come. Sounds
interesting? Yeah,I don't know what that says
about me, but it sounds veryinteresting to me. And what
would your message be to aparent that just got that
dreaded message from theirschool classroom that there's
(20:58):
lice going around? What wouldyou what would your message be
to that family?
Well, there's one of two thingsyou can do.
You can either give us a call,or find a lice company wherever
you live and go down there andget your child checked. Or you
can order my products. You canorder a good lice comb, and
(21:20):
you're going to get thatmessage. You're going to get
that call if you have a child,there's no way around it. So you
can prepare yourself when you doand have things on hand, a good
lice comb and some shampooconditioner with mint. And learn
how to comb, learn how to check.
And out of curiosity, I've beenhearing about sprays to keep
(21:42):
lice from reinfecting The hair.
Is there any data to supportthat? That's helpful? That's a
new one for me that I've beenhearing about recently.
Okay, so lice hate the smell ofmint, and remember, I told you
that they'd like to return tothe same hair. They leave a
scent behind. So what you'retrying to do is camouflage your
scent, and there's not 100%effectiveness in anything, but
(22:04):
with the hair back, braided buntfor the girls, the hair is not
dangling down, and then spraythem with the mint repellent.
I like that. Braided back andbunt, yes. Okay, okay. And
finally, can you just remind us,you know, after all, this
podcast is called, your child isnormal? Can you reaffirm to
families getting lice doesn'tmean that something is wrong
(22:25):
with your child? Correct? Iam writing a book called
everybody gets lice because Ihave to tell you that I've had
people every age, from newbornbabies to 99 year old ladies,
and then I've been to some ofthe scariest parts of La helping
to remove lice. And I've been tothe biggest reality star homes
for lice. So I will tell you, ifyou go your whole lifetime,
(22:49):
you've never had it that is sorare,
maybe if your head is shaved,maybe if you're bald,
but you just have to beprepared, because it's going to
happen, and all you have to dois check your children's hair.
And another point I want tobring up that I think people may
not be fully aware about is thatlice don't actually cause
(23:11):
disease, right? So when I thinkabout how mosquitoes, for
example, may carry malaria orWest Nile virus or other
illnesses, lice really are justa nuisance, correct? Absolutely
true. Lice are completelyharmless. They do not carry any
infectious diseases. They're notlike ticks with Lyme disease or
mosquitoes. They're just a painin the booty. Just
(23:33):
a pain in the booty. I thinkthat's a really helpful point to
remind everybody. So thank you.
Yes, you're very welcome. Well,this has been so helpful before
we close, can you telleverybody? Where can they find
you? I know not everybody thatlistens lives in Southern
California, but where are yourlocations? Absolutely
so I have six locations, 1000Oaks Downey, Pasadena,
(23:53):
Riverside, Redondo Beach, andopening Costa Mesa. I have
mobile service all the way fromSanta Barbara all the way down
to San Diego. You can buy myproducts online. I'm on Amazon,
and you can also buy them on mywebsite@www.my hair helpers.com,
we do have somebody on thephones from 7am till 10 at
(24:18):
night. 310-874-4550, 8744550,and if you have any questions,
you can text me and you will getme and I can answer any
questions. Or if you findsomething, you can send me a
picture,offering to give a number that
someone can text for you. Textthem back. That's very generous
of you.
(24:38):
It is. But I love what I do, andI love helping people. I found
my niche.
Well, thank you. As the kids saythese days, let's normalize such
and such. So we're normalizinglice, and that's great. Thank
you so much. I love meetingpeople that are passionate about
whatever it is they do, and Ilove meeting someone that's so
passionate about treating headlice. So thank you so much. Hi
(24:58):
everyone and welcome. Welcomeback to your child is normal.
I'm your host and pediatrician,Dr Jessica Hochman, so today
we're discussing a topic thatmakes many people start
scratching their heads themoment they hear the name head
lice. But did you know that muchof what we think we know about
lice is actually myth andmisinformation? So to help us
separate fact from fiction, I'mjoined by Amy chinnian. She's a
(25:20):
lice expert, and she's workedwith many, many families to
demystify this very normal andvery treatable childhood issue.
So in today's episode, we'lltalk about what lice are and
what they aren't, how theyreally are spread, which
treatments actually work, andhow parents can feel calmer and
more confident if lice happenedto show up in your family. Now I
hope I don't make anyone startscratching by me saying this,
(25:40):
but let's start talking abouthead lice. Thank you for
listening, and I hope youenjoyed this week's episode of
your child is normal. Also, ifyou could take a moment and
leave a five star review,wherever it is you listen to
podcasts, I would greatlyappreciate it. It really makes a
difference to help this podcastgrow. You can also follow me on
Instagram at ask Dr. Jessica.
Hello, listeners. This is Dr Jessica Hochman. I'm
excited to share that I am nowbooking sponsorships for your
child as normal for this fall.
If you have a product, serviceor a message that you think our
listeners would benefit from,whether it's for parents, kids,
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checking the show notes. Justclick the link that says how to
(00:20):
sponsor an episode, and I'll letyou know for a good match and
get back to you.
Hi everyone, and welcome back toyour child is normal. I'm your
host and pediatrician, DrJessica Hochman, so today we're
discussing a topic that makesmany people start scratching
(00:41):
their heads the moment they hearthe name head lice. But did you
know that much of what we thinkwe know about lice is actually
myth and misinformation? So tohelp us separate fact from
fiction, I'm joined by Amychinnian. She's a lice expert,
and she's worked with many, manyfamilies to demystify this very
normal and very treatablechildhood issue. So in today's
episode, we'll talk about whatlice are and what they aren't,
(01:02):
how they really are spread,which treatments actually work,
and how parents can feel calmerand more confident if lice
happened to show up in yourfamily. Now, I hope I don't make
anyone start scratching by mesaying this, but let's start
talking about head lice. AmyChaney, and welcome to your
child as normal. Thank you somuch for being here.
I am so excited to be here. Ilove talking to pediatricians,
(01:25):
so I am looking forward to thisconversation. Specifically. I
want to help everybodyunderstand about lice, what lice
is. I can't wait to bust somemyths with you about lice, and
then I would love for everybodyto know about you and what you
do. So first, can you tell usabout what you do at lice
helpers and how you got intothis work in the first place?
(01:47):
Okay, the name of my company ismy hair helpers. And I started
17 years ago. I had a licecrisis in 2000 with my fifth
daughter, I was pregnant and myhair was itching, and I had not
grown up with lice. I didn'treally know much about it. I
(02:09):
didn't know how normal it was,and honestly, I didn't know that
there a bug could actually livein your hair. So when my hair
was itching, I had a friend atmy house, and she looked at my
hair, and she said, Well, you'vegot head lice. I said, What? How
could that be like? How doesthis bug live in my hair? How
did it get there? I had amillion questions. And so that
(02:32):
kind of started my journey. Ihired the only company I could
find. There was only one ladythat had started a company. She
de loused all four kids andmyself. And I didn't really
remember much of thatexperience, but I just remember,
Oh, thank God, it's out. So atmy hair helpers, we use non
(02:55):
toxic products. We put them onthe hair, we section it, we go
through with the fine toothcomb. You know, it takes maybe
an hour, maybe two hours, so youleave our salon knowing it's
gone, which is beautiful. Soas a pediatrician, I'm very
familiar with lice. I know thatit's a very normal, common
occurrence with children, withfamilies, but I do find that
(03:18):
there's a lot of shame aroundlice. I think a lot of parents,
they all dread getting an emailfrom school that there's a case
in the classroom. Or I meet alot of parents that don't want
to talk about it. They want tokeep it a secret. They don't
want their friends and familymembers to know, because they
worry about how they're going tobe perceived if someone else
finds out that their kid haslice in their hair. Why do you
(03:40):
think this came to be? Why, inyour opinion, is there so much
shame around lice?
Well, there, there are a lot ofmyths surrounding lice. So when
I first started my company and Iwas doing research on lice, I
was shocked at just thediffering things I was reading,
that they didn't match up withthe CDC. They didn't match up
(04:03):
with what people were saying. Imean, the myths are just crazy.
I'm so excited to talk to youfor this reason, because I agree
there are many, many myths outthere about lice. So is it okay
if we go through them? Oh yeah,I'd love to absolutely okay. So
the first question I have foryou, is lice related to hygiene
(04:23):
at all? Is it true that gettinga diagnosis of lice comes from
not being clean enough, notshowering enough, for example?
So I will tell you this, thathygiene has zero to do with
lice. It's about being at thewrong place, at the wrong time.
It's head to head contact, onlywhich most people don't know.
(04:44):
It's not living in yourenvironment. You're not living
in a dirty house that has licecrawling around. It's simply
head to head contact, they loveclean hair, they love dirty
hair. They love curly hair. Theylove straight hair. They love
babies. They love. Grandmas.
They're equal opportunity bugs.
They will go to anybody.
(05:04):
So this is great to know. So ithas nothing to do with hygiene.
Will you say that again, nothingto do with hygiene. But I will
tell you is that sometimespeople have a lot of children.
They're living in smallquarters. All it takes is, you
know, one case of lice to spreadquickly to the rest of the
family.
So that's interesting, that yousay that they like head to head
(05:28):
contact. So a lot of times wegive advice for kids not to
share hats, not to sharehelmets, not to share bedding.
Does that mean that that's amyth as well.
I would say that 99% of lice ispassed head to head. The other
1% we don't know, and I wouldnot tell you that a hat is a
good way of transporting lice,because they're not very
(05:51):
coordinated. They can't justhang on in a hat and then the
next person puts the hat on.
They like long, dangling hair,and that's how they travel. And
the way I know this is because Igo to lice conferences once a
year, and I'm with the worldexperts in lice, and I always
ask them, Why is this somisunderstood? Why does
everybody think it's in hats?
(06:14):
It's in furniture? They need theblood to survive. If they end up
on a couch or somewhere, ahairbrush, they're going to die
quickly. And I asked theexperts, what's the 1% you know,
if 99% is passed head to head,what's that 1% they didn't know.
They said, I don't know, but weknow that it's head to head
(06:35):
contact.
That's fascinating. There's asaying that goes around the
pediatrician community. We'llsay that which kids wear we do
not share. So that sounds likeit may not be entirely true,
that sharing things, or sharinghats in particular, might not be
the greatest source of spreadinglice. That's so interesting
to me. Maybe a hairbrush, youknow, but they did studies in
(06:57):
the hair, on the lice and hairbrushes and their legs were
broken, the lice under themicroscope, their legs were all
broken. Now here's somethinginteresting. This is going to
prove my point. During covid,when all the kids were six feet
apart, I did not have one newcase of lice. The only cases I
had were cases that were leftover from kids in school. Had
(07:19):
been, you know, breeding intheir hair for a few months. But
like I said, all of usnitpickers got together, and
we're like, see, we told you,during covid, nobody got lice.
They were all six feet apart.
Okay, so that's interesting.
That makes sense, that head tohead contact would be the
primary source of spread. Istill have a hard time, you
know, it's still ingrained in menot to share hair brushes and
(07:41):
not to share hats, but I thinkthat's really interesting, that
that's the primary way that it'sspread. And it makes sense, as
you said, that the lice like tofeed on the scalp.
Well, what I like to tell mycustomers, when I see them face
to face, I'll say, I want you toknow lice is not living in your
home, and it's not living inyour bedding. It's not living in
(08:02):
your couch. If it falls off ontoone of those areas, it's dead or
dying. And I tell them, it'snice to have a clean home. It
just doesn't impact lice. Youcan go nuts on your house. Clean
it. That feels good, but there'snot going to be an outbreak of
lice because you didn't cleanyour home. It has to do with
checking every family member,making sure every family member
(08:25):
is clear. That's how you getlice back. And you get lice back
from your friendship group. Yourkids brought home lice because
they had a friend with lice.
That's how you get it, notbecause you didn't clean your
home, or you didn't scoureverything, and I found that so
interesting, suchmisinformation.
It reminds me of illnesses,colds. For example, you get
(08:48):
colds from other humans. Youdon't get colds from sitting on
your couch, from from touchingother things. Generally, yeah,
yeah. The most, the most commonway to get them is from somebody
else that's sick, from your kidhanging out with somebody else
who has a cold, right? Youknow, this is the most
misunderstood bug which I whichis why I love talking about it.
For example, the eggs, the netsthat the lice lay, they can't
(09:09):
even hatch off your hair. So thewhole fact of bagging stuff up
for two weeks, I just imaginesome poor little child with
their stuffy, and they can'thave their stuffy for two weeks
because the parents think thatthat they're in the stuffed
animals. I mean, it's just thisinformation got circulated years
ago, and so I'm just here tobust it.
(09:34):
When I was a kid, I remember ourfamily had an outbreak of lice.
Myself and my two sisters and mymom did put all of our stuffed
animals in a bag, all of oursheets in a bag. And I remember
that very clearly, because Imissed having my toys to play
with. So so interesting to knowthat that didn't make a
difference.
Doesn't make any difference. ButI tell people, if it makes a
(09:56):
difference in your mental state,by all means, clean your home.
Mm. Yeah.
So just in conclusion, ifparents want to vacuum, if they
want to clean, if they want towash all the bedding, it may be
overkill, but it's not going tocontribute to worsening of the
spread of lice, but it's havinga clean home never hurt anyone.
It'snot going to solve your life's
problem, but it's going to serveit's going to solve your anxiety
(10:17):
because you did itfair enough, and that's and
that's worth something rightnow. How about how lice move?
How they transport themselves?
Do they jump or fly from head tohead?
Okay, so the anatomy of a lifebug is that they have three legs
on each side of their body. Theythey don't have wings. They
(10:39):
can't fly, thank God. And theycan't jump. They have no back
legs, so they crawl veryquickly. All it takes is your
child, you know, hugging anotherchild, looking at a maybe a book
or computer screen together,sitting on a couch together,
boom, crawls over.
What I'm learning here is thatlong hair plays more of a factor
(11:00):
in the spread of lice than Irealized.
I mean, they're equalopportunity, for sure, but long
hair is a swinging bridge forthe lice to crawl across. It
makes it a little easier.
Now, can you bust this myth? Forme, are pets a source of lice?
So for example, if my headtouches a dog, can my dog be a
source that spreads lice withinmy home, absolutely
(11:22):
not. Dogs have a different bodytemperature and a different bug
that loves them, fleas. And wedon't carry fleas around and
they don't carry lice around. Wecan't interchange the two bugs.
Thisis great to know, so dogs and
pets do not need to be treated.
And it sounds like lice are onlyspread via human to human
(11:44):
contact. That's right, that'sright. I do get questions, like
one lady threw her mattress out,and I'm thinking she's got them
confused with bed bugs.
Somebody's, you know, vacuuming,they're thinking about fleas. So
this, this bug. Your best tocheck every family member. Okay?
20% of men get lice. 80% of momsget lice.
(12:08):
Okay, so my next question is,what I would like parents to
know is, how can they checktheir children for lice? So
let's say they get that emailfrom school there's been a lice
outbreak. Where can they look onthe scalp to confirm a lice
diagnosis.
That's a very good question. Sothe first place you want to look
is the nape of the neck andbehind the ears. For some reason
(12:30):
it's nice and cozy and warmthere, and that is the first
place that the lice lay theireggs. They look like little
brown or clear egg sacs. And theway to tell if it's dandruff or
lice is that if it's dandruff,it flakes off and falls a lice,
egg is not going to come offunless you pull it down with
(12:51):
your nails. It's glued on thereso that it can hatch. And the
best way to know is to take yourfingernails and slide it over.
Is it feel bumpy? Is it glued atan angle? And you can check your
child for lice. The best way toalso check is to use a good lice
comb, because sometimes a bugjust passed and is hiding in
(13:14):
there. They haven't laid eggsyet. And say, you find out, Oh,
my kid's been exposed to lice.
The only way to know is to wetthe hair. I use like a mint
shampoo and detangle the hairand just go through comb your
kids scalp, swiping on a whitepaper towel, they look like
little strawberry seeds. Andanother fact that people don't
realize is that lice like toreturn to the same heads. It's a
(13:37):
scent they leave behind, andthey're more prone to go back to
your child once you've hadlives. And so what I tell
parents, if you have a childprone to lies, they keep getting
it over and over. You know youcould have missed something, and
it's coming back. So the bestthing to do is, once a week,
take a peek. Okay, that's mymotto. Once a week, take a peek.
(13:57):
If you see somethinginteresting, and you don't know,
you can send me a picture. And Ialways welcome that I get a lot
of pictures of lice. Sometimes,when I'm out at a nice dinner
with my husband, I'll get apicture of lice, and I'll say,
excuse me one second.
I have a very weird life,but you sound very passionate
(14:20):
about it. And I'm also assumingit's possible that they're so
easy to miss one or two and theycould probably reinfect the
scalp that way, correct?
If you are doing a treatmentyourself, if you've decided to
get products and do a treatment,it is very hard to get
everything, and I don'trecommend chemicals. I don't use
(14:44):
toxins. They keep making therecipe stronger. So red and Nyx,
they just keep making thechemicals stronger and stronger,
and the lice are more and moreresistant. So what I do
differently is I have oil. Itsuffocates them, especially.
Special oil, special enzymes,and then we go through strand by
(15:04):
strand, combing everything out.
Now I have to admit to you, inmy home, one of my kids did have
lice a few years ago, and I diduse the over the counter
treatment. You know, we didretreat a couple weeks later
just to make sure it wasproperly treated. And it did
work in my situation. But I dohave to say, even though I know
(15:25):
the data has shown thatpermethrin, 1% is safe, I did
smell the chemicals, and I wouldprefer not to use chemicals. So
it's, it is nice to know aboutnon chemical options, so I I
definitely appreciate whatyou're doing.
Yeah, yeah. In the in here's alittle fact. The tiny bugs, the
tiniest one that's newly hatchedis called a nymph. They don't
(15:48):
have developed nervous systems.
So what if you're using a wordto counter treatment, it's not
going to kill them. It's notgoing to get them
because it doesn't have anythingin it to affect them.
Interesting. It's too early intheir life cycle. Now, a lot of
people ask me about homeremedies. Maybe they grew up
using mayonnaise. I've heardcoconut oil. I've heard about
(16:11):
vinegar. I even heard aboutVaseline, you know, covering the
hair in Vaseline as a way tosuffocate the lice. Do these
actuallywork? Well, what I tell my
customers is, if you usemayonnaise, you'll never look at
a sandwich the same. It's kindof gross and messy. The idea is,
you do want an oil and you dowant a good comb. So I tell my
customers, if I can't get to youtonight, just put some coconut
(16:34):
oil on your hair. That'll atleast hold you over until I
could see you, because no matterwhat you're using, you still
have to comb everything out.
And I know you touched on thisearlier, but what can people
expect a typical visit at licehelpers to be like you said. It
(16:56):
takes about an hour or two andyou gently comb through all of
the individual hair strands. Isthere anything else that you
want parentsto know? So when you come to my
salon, you are going to first ofall have a great experience.
Okay, they're all kid friendly.
We are going to put you in asalon chair, and we are going to
(17:16):
spray product on your hair. It'sgoing to smell like mint, and
first we check, we comb throughthe whole scalp to see if
there's anything in there. Andthe minute we find something, we
add more products. We use oilsand enzymes. And then the
technician is going to sectionthe hair and go through the
whole head. And then you'regoing to come back in five to
(17:36):
seven days, we're going to seeif there's been any more
exposure to lice. Okay, we wantto make sure that once you put
your child back in the sameenvironment, that they didn't
get it again.
It sounds good to me, yeah, andyou're so experienced with lice,
you've been dealing with headlice for so many years. What do
you wish that more pediatriciansand school nurses knew about
(17:59):
lice management?
So I would like them to knowfirst of all, how to diagnose
it. You've got to look atpictures see what it looks like.
You've got to use a rule ofthumb, when you're looking above
the ears, nape of the neck, doesit fall off easily? Does it
crumble when you touch it? Ifit's lumpy, when you run your
(18:22):
fingernails over it, it's lice.
And then I would like them toknow that the over the counter
products are not effectiveanymore, that people need to
find products that really work,enzymes and oils is what I use.
But there's got to be these.
Focus has to be checking everyfamily member, and not cleaning
(18:45):
and bagging and all that stuffthat makes you exhausted. You
have to just check the familyand then you have to just treat
them twice, okay, the firsttime, and then about a week
later, that that basically iswhat I want doctors and nurses
to know, and they need to studylice and see what it looks like
(19:10):
so that they can really diagnoseit.
I think that's a really goodpoint. I do agree, when my when
I send my kids to camp, thereare people that will double
check all of the scalps of thecampers before they enter camp,
and I can see they're notlooking at the nape of the neck
and behind the ears. They'relooking at the top of the head.
So I think that is reallyhelpful advice.
(19:30):
Yeah. I mean, I could spot anegg a mile away once you know
it. You know it. Ithink the most common question I
hear is that parents aren't surewhat is dandruff and what is
head lice. So Right? Iappreciate you bringing up the
point that lice really are hardto take off. Yeah, your
fingernails have to pinch it andpull it down. Yes. And can you
also talk about where on thescalp it's typically found? Yes,
(19:52):
so lice like to hang out abovethe ears. It's nice and warm
there. The first place that Icheck is above the. Ears, and
that's usually where we find themost amount of eggs, and the
nape of the neck and the crownof
the head, and about how far awayfrom the scalp will you find the
nets? So thenets are glued a quarter inch
from the scalp. So what happensis, the female louse comes over
(20:15):
to your hair, and they have tohave a male. They have to be
impregnated. And then whathappens is they are ready to
start laying eggs. So they layabout three eggs each time. They
lay eggs in about three times aday, and then those eggs hatch
in about seven days. And thenthe little nymph molts three
(20:35):
times and becomes an adult egglaying. Louse,
I'm thinking I want to come joinyou next time you go to your
yearly lice conference.
It's so much fun. I've never hada pediatrician come. Sounds
interesting? Yeah,I don't know what that says
about me, but it sounds veryinteresting to me. And what
would your message be to aparent that just got that
dreaded message from theirschool classroom that there's
(20:58):
lice going around? What wouldyou what would your message be
to that family?
Well, there's one of two thingsyou can do.
You can either give us a call,or find a lice company wherever
you live and go down there andget your child checked. Or you
can order my products. You canorder a good lice comb, and
(21:20):
you're going to get thatmessage. You're going to get
that call if you have a child,there's no way around it. So you
can prepare yourself when you doand have things on hand, a good
lice comb and some shampooconditioner with mint. And learn
how to comb, learn how to check.
And out of curiosity, I've beenhearing about sprays to keep
(21:42):
lice from reinfecting The hair.
Is there any data to supportthat? That's helpful? That's a
new one for me that I've beenhearing about recently.
Okay, so lice hate the smell ofmint, and remember, I told you
that they'd like to return tothe same hair. They leave a
scent behind. So what you'retrying to do is camouflage your
scent, and there's not 100%effectiveness in anything, but
(22:04):
with the hair back, braided buntfor the girls, the hair is not
dangling down, and then spraythem with the mint repellent.
I like that. Braided back andbunt, yes. Okay, okay. And
finally, can you just remind us,you know, after all, this
podcast is called, your child isnormal? Can you reaffirm to
families getting lice doesn'tmean that something is wrong
(22:25):
with your child? Correct? Iam writing a book called
everybody gets lice because Ihave to tell you that I've had
people every age, from newbornbabies to 99 year old ladies,
and then I've been to some ofthe scariest parts of La helping
to remove lice. And I've been tothe biggest reality star homes
for lice. So I will tell you, ifyou go your whole lifetime,
(22:49):
you've never had it that is sorare,
maybe if your head is shaved,maybe if you're bald,
but you just have to beprepared, because it's going to
happen, and all you have to dois check your children's hair.
And another point I want tobring up that I think people may
not be fully aware about is thatlice don't actually cause
(23:11):
disease, right? So when I thinkabout how mosquitoes, for
example, may carry malaria orWest Nile virus or other
illnesses, lice really are justa nuisance, correct? Absolutely
true. Lice are completelyharmless. They do not carry any
infectious diseases. They're notlike ticks with Lyme disease or
mosquitoes. They're just a painin the booty. Just
(23:33):
a pain in the booty. I thinkthat's a really helpful point to
remind everybody. So thank you.
Yes, you're very welcome. Well,this has been so helpful before
we close, can you telleverybody? Where can they find
you? I know not everybody thatlistens lives in Southern
California, but where are yourlocations? Absolutely
so I have six locations, 1000Oaks Downey, Pasadena,
(23:53):
Riverside, Redondo Beach, andopening Costa Mesa. I have
mobile service all the way fromSanta Barbara all the way down
to San Diego. You can buy myproducts online. I'm on Amazon,
and you can also buy them on mywebsite@www.my hair helpers.com,
we do have somebody on thephones from 7am till 10 at
(24:18):
night. 310-874-4550, 8744550,and if you have any questions,
you can text me and you will getme and I can answer any
questions. Or if you findsomething, you can send me a
picture,offering to give a number that
someone can text for you. Textthem back. That's very generous
of you.
(24:38):
It is. But I love what I do, andI love helping people. I found
my niche.
Well, thank you. As the kids saythese days, let's normalize such
and such. So we're normalizinglice, and that's great. Thank
you so much. I love meetingpeople that are passionate about
whatever it is they do, and Ilove meeting someone that's so
passionate about treating headlice. So thank you so much. Hi
(24:58):
everyone and welcome. Welcomeback to your child is normal.
I'm your host and pediatrician,Dr Jessica Hochman, so today
we're discussing a topic thatmakes many people start
scratching their heads themoment they hear the name head
lice. But did you know that muchof what we think we know about
lice is actually myth andmisinformation? So to help us
separate fact from fiction, I'mjoined by Amy chinnian. She's a
(25:20):
lice expert, and she's workedwith many, many families to
demystify this very normal andvery treatable childhood issue.
So in today's episode, we'lltalk about what lice are and
what they aren't, how theyreally are spread, which
treatments actually work, andhow parents can feel calmer and
more confident if lice happenedto show up in your family. Now I
hope I don't make anyone startscratching by me saying this,
(25:40):
but let's start talking abouthead lice. Thank you for
listening, and I hope youenjoyed this week's episode of
your child is normal. Also, ifyou could take a moment and
leave a five star review,wherever it is you listen to
podcasts, I would greatlyappreciate it. It really makes a
difference to help this podcastgrow. You can also follow me on
Instagram at ask Dr. Jessica.
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