In Episode 206 of 'Your Child is Normal,' the host welcomes back Devon, a toddler expert, to discuss her journey since the last time she appeared three years ago. During this time, Devon became a mother and wrote a comprehensive book titled 'Transforming Toddlerhood.' She shares her evolved perspectives on toddler behavior and parenting, emphasizing the significance of empathy, the benefits of natural consequences, and practical advice for dealing with common toddler challenges like tantrums, transitions, and defiance. Devon also elaborates on her book, which serves as a practical guide for parents with actionable advice, focusing on various aspects of toddler development. Additionally, the conversation highlights the importance of community support, outdoor activities for children, and self-compassion for parents. The episode concludes with information on where to find Devon’s new book and her extensive online community at transformingtoddlerhood.com. Devon’s book 'Transforming Toddlerhood' is available on Amazon and other major book retailers.
Your Child is Normal is the trusted podcast for parents, pediatricians, and child health experts who want smart, nuanced conversations about raising healthy, resilient kids. Hosted by Dr. Jessica Hochman — a board-certified practicing pediatrician — the show combines evidence-based medicine, expert interviews, and real-world parenting advice to help listeners navigate everything from sleep struggles to mental health, nutrition, screen time, and more.
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Hi everyone, and welcome back toyour child is normal. I'm your
host. Dr Jessica Hochman, todayI'm thrilled to welcome back
toddler expert Devon fromtransforming toddlerhood. It's
been over three years since shewas last on the podcast. If
you'd like to go back andlisten, that was episode 40, and
so much has changed for hersince then, she's launched a
course, she's written a book,and she's become a mom herself.
So in this conversation, we talkabout how real life parenting
(00:53):
deepens her empathy, why stayingcalm is a superpower during
tantrums, and we dig intotransitions, screens, natural
consequences and how to reframetoddler behavior as
communication. So if you have atoddler in your life, I think
you'll find this episodeincredibly helpful. Devon offers
practical tools. She helps usunderstand what's really going
on with toddlers, and sheprovides so much reassurance.
(01:15):
Please share this episode withanyone who might benefit from a
thoughtful and encouragingconversation about toddler
behavior. All right. Now let'sdive into my conversation with
Devin from transformingtoddlerhood. I want to take a
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Devin, I'm so happy to have youback on the podcast, and I
cannot believe that it was overthree years that you were last
on Iknow it's just hard to think
(02:16):
that much time has passed.
It's true. And I was so gratefulwhen you agreed to come on my
podcast, because at the time, Iwas just getting started, and
you had already amassed a largefollowing, and when you said
yes, I was so excited. So thankyou again for coming on the
podcast before and coming backon today.
Oh well, thank you so much forhaving me. I mean, I love
(02:39):
talking about toddlers more thananything in the world, so I'm
always jazzed up to doit. So I'm very excited for you.
Since we've last talked, a lothas changed. Yes, we're going to
talk about your book and yourcourse, but also, you've become
a mom since we last spoke.
You know, last night Icelebrated my 42nd birthday, my
son is now three, and I justwasn't even ready for this
(03:04):
moment where he had his birthdaytwo months ago, and he really
started to understand, like abirthday, a party gifts. And so
the night before my birthday, Itold him, tomorrow is Mama's
birthday, he was so excited,asking, do you want balloons?
Can we use the Lightning McQueencandle? And so it made it so
much more special, because hewas so excited and jazzed up to
(03:26):
celebrate with me. And I'm like,I wasn't prepared for such a
fun, special moment likethat. How wonderful to
experience where your child ishappy for you. Yeah, absolutely.
So I'm just so curious, beforeyou became a parent, you were a
toddler expert. We spoke a lotabout toddler behavior and
managing toddler communicationand difficult scenarios that
come up with toddlers. Since youbecome a mom, are there any
(03:48):
stances or thoughts that you hadin the past that have now
softened or changed?
Yeah, well, I would say when itcomes to parenting,
specifically, this stance hasn'tnecessarily change. If anything,
I think it's interesting theemotional bond, right? The
emotional bond with my child hasgiven me access to, like, so
(04:09):
much more empathy. And in thesemoments where I just see him,
like, melding down and upset,I'm just like, oh, this poor
little child, like he is justdoing his best, and he's not
trying to be bad right now. He'sjust really having a hard time.
So it's like, grown my empathyby so much at the same time,
because I see moments where itwould be easier to just be
(04:29):
permissive and not followthrough on a limit or not set a
limit that needs to actually beset. And so there's moments I
notice myself wanting to bepermissive, just so my son will
stop crying, and so I have to,like, remind myself from those
moments, oh, it's important toset this limit. And just because
he's crying doesn't mean I'mdoing something wrong, nor is
(04:50):
there anything wrong with him.
It's just part of the processhere. So that's been an
interesting nuance for me. Andaside from that, it's funny,
there's all kinds of things Isaid I wouldn't do. As a parent,
I don't know, like, buy my kid,like, a bunch of plastic toys
and stuff like that. Andwouldn't you know, my kid's
obsessed with cars, like DisneyCars, and we have so many things
from that. And I'm like, Youknow what? You never know what
(05:14):
your child's gonna be passionateabout, isn't
that the truth? And it's so funwhen they find their passion.
Yeah, I have to say myself,looking back before I had kids
and I was a pediatrician, I gavea lot of advice that after
having kids, I would not giveany more. So I was curious if
you had a similar experiencegiving advice before having a
kid as a toddler, expert andthen afterwards. So it sounds
(05:36):
like in your situation, it madeyou a better mom, a more
compassionatemom. I definitely think I can
see just how hard it is to setlimits and follow through
whenever it's your own child,right, because of the emotional
bond. So I think I have a newlevel of empathy for everyone,
absolutely.
And I think empathy is the keyto making so many life scenarios
easier. You know, the ability tostand in someone else's shoes or
(05:57):
to think, how would it feel if Iwas in their shoes? Just softens
all of the emotions it truly butI'm thinking about before I had
kids at work, let's say theirtoddler injured themselves. I
would tell parents, oh, just putice on it. And then I remember
when I had a toddler trying tokeep ice on their forehead was
impossible. So I now I change itto if you can, if they let you
(06:17):
put ice on their forehead,consider that for a few minutes.
Or another example I'm thinkingof is when when kids are sick. I
would tell parents before I hadkids, keep your kids separated
so that they don't pass theillness from one to the other.
And then after having kids, Irealized that that is an
impossible ask, unless youliterally live in different
homes. So I do think having kidsdefinitely changes the advice
(06:40):
that parenting or child expertsgive in a good way, I hope,
yeah, absolutely, in a moreempathetic way, as you said,
yep. Okay, so, so getting ontoyour book, which I am so excited
for you that you wrote a book Iknow that is no easy feat, and I
can't imagine how much work youput into creating such a
wonderful book. What was theinspiration for you, because I
(07:01):
know there's a lot of books thatexist already on toddlers. What
inspired you to write a book?
What did you think was missingfrom the current bookshelves?
Like, what excited you to writea book that wasn't already
available for parents toread? So I'm so glad you asked
me this question. I startedtransforming toddlerhood in 2018
so all of these years, I've hadso many parents DMing me, asking
(07:22):
me the same types of questionsover and over about biting and
hitting and tantrums and all ofthese things. And I started to
realize that parents are just soexhausted by searching all over
Instagram, Googling everywhereto find quality information on
how to handle all of thesedifferent scenarios, and it's
(07:45):
challenging, right? And you wantto have information you can rely
on. And so what I realized wasmissing is a book that's
basically the equivalent to whatto expect. But for toddlerhood,
we have books that arecomprehensive for pregnancy, for
infancy, but we don't reallyhave it for the toddler years.
So when I wrote transformingtoddlerhood, this is an all in
(08:07):
one, comprehensive guide toparenting kids ages one to five,
we cover it all. We cover whatis a toddler and how do you know
you have one? We coverdevelopment, brain development,
sensory system, decoding,behavior and discipline that is
developmentally smart, and thenbeyond that, we cover more than
27 different common challengesyou're going to face with your
(08:31):
child. And there is a small minichapter on each one of those,
giving you toddler tips,scripts, behavior, red flags,
everything you need to know tobe able to overcome these
challenges. And I just wantedthere to be a quick reference
guide that could be like yourparental companion or best
friend.
What you're saying is, you know,all the questions, all the most
(08:52):
common questions that parentsask when they have a toddler,
and now all of those commonquestions are available in one
book to read, to readexactly. And also, quite
frankly, I want to write a bookthat I could actually read as a
toddler parent. Because rightnow, if you ask me to read a
book that has like 12 chaptersand each chapter is like 20 some
pages, like, I can't make itthrough more than a couple of
(09:13):
pages. I'm like, rereading it.
I'm falling asleep. I mean, I'ma tired toddler parent, so
that's why I wrote a book with abunch of short chapters that
just as really easy to read andeasy to digest, so you just
don't have to go searching tofind the information you
actually need.
Fantastic. That sounds perfect.
Yeah. So I thought I could gothrough with you some of the
(09:34):
most common questions that Ihear at work as a pediatrician,
I think a lot of families willreally appreciate hearing what a
toddler expert has to say, whatyour advice would be. So the
first big question that comes upis a lot of parents are just
plain and simple frustrated whentheir kids tantrum. I think we
tend to take it personally. Wefeel like our kids shouldn't be
tantruming. People are lookingat us, especially if it's
(09:57):
happening in public. Maybe wefeel judged. Maybe we feel like
it's a behavior that should beavoided. How can you help
parents reconsider how we'rethinking about tantrums so that
we don't take itpersonally? Yeah, here's the
thing, it's hard to hear yourchild cry. It is so hard for so
many different reasons, andtantrums are such an important
(10:17):
and typical part of toddlerdevelopment. It's really an
emotional release, right? It'sthe release of all the build up
frustrations and emotions thathave built up for your child.
You know, because toddlers havevery little control over their
lives, and so they're constantlybeing faced with their lack of
control and lack of independencewhen they're in a developmental
(10:39):
period that they have adevelopmental drive to have a
sense of control and to beindependent. So it's very
challenging. And so thosefrustrations build up all day
long, and then something happensthat will push them over the
edge. So my friend Pattywhipfler, the founder of hand in
hand parenting, likes to callthis an emotional poop. So I
find that that's a reallyhumorous way to start reframing,
(11:02):
like, Oh, my child just needs tohave their emotional poop, and
then they're going to feelbetter. Because the reality is,
is that when a child has atantrum and then they're able to
come back to their equilibriumwith our support, then they're
creating that emotionalresilience and learning those
social emotional skills that aregonna serve them for years to
(11:24):
come.
I love that expression, theemotional poop, because adding
some humor to the idea oftantrums, I think is fantastic
and brilliant. Because I find alot of us parents, we sort of
tiptoe around our kids. We sortof walk on eggshells for fear
that they're going to have atantrum. We're afraid to say no
to them for that piece of cake,or we're afraid to tell them no
(11:45):
that they can't have that toy atthe toy store. So I think
reframing it for parents,understanding that it is normal,
that having an emotional releaseis healthy, I think that's a
really positive spin on it, so Iappreciate that perspective.
Yeah, so then that leads me towhile they're having the
tantrum. As you said, it'sreally hard for parents to hear
their kids cry. What advice doyou have for parents to keep our
(12:07):
calm, to keep our cool?
Yeah, well, I think the biggestthing whether it's your child
tantruming, your child, youknow, just took a toy from
someone, your toddler, hit you,whatever the behavior might be
reminding yourself that this isnot an emergency. Is going to be
(12:28):
your best friend if you haveestablished physical safety. So
in a tantrum, establishingphysical safety might mean your
child's not going to, like fallout of a cart at a store, or
they're not going to fall off acouch, or if they're having a
tantrum on the kitchen floor,they're not going to hit their
head on like, the edge ofcupboards or something like
that. So you know your child isphysically safe, and you've
(12:50):
created some distance thatthey're like, lashing out,
hitting and kicking, and thenyou can tell yourself, this is
not an emergency. I am safe. Mychild is safe. Because, quite
frankly, that sense of urgencywe feel that gets us all revved
up as part of our own stressresponse, and it's our job to
disrupt our stress response sothen we can stay calm. And the
more that we can stay calm, thenthe more likely our child is to
(13:13):
calm down faster when we're notjumping on their emotional
roller coaster. And then, onceyou say this is not an
emergency, what you want to dois start looking at, okay, how
do you ground yourself? What aresome grounding practices that
work for you? So maybe it isopening the window, taking a
breath of fresh air, taking deepbreaths, like getting our body
(13:34):
and our senses focused in adifferent direction will
oftentimes help us disrupt thatstress response. So I'm
thinking it's a good reminder tothink of other alternatives.
Yes, I find myself checking out.
You know, look at my phone, orI'll walk away. But better to
stay there and stay present.
But oftentimes, though,honestly, I feel like that if
where we're at in that moment iseither checking out or losing it
(13:57):
on our child, checking out is amore emotionally safe thing to
do. That being said, you don'twant to not check back in, so
it's okay to, like, leave theroom, create some space, maybe
even look at your phone, takesome deep breaths. But then, now
that you've disrupted thatstress response, can you come
back in and engage? So it's notnecessarily bad or wrong what
(14:20):
you're doing because you'redoing what you know that will
keep you from exploding. And ofcourse, there's always
opportunities to try new things,and the ones that I said are
ones that typically work for me,but there's a million ways that
we can ground ourselves right.
I agree. And the other thing Itell myself is that all of these
tantrums, as difficult as theyare in the moment, they always
(14:41):
end. There's always an ending,and usually it feels a lot
longer than it is, just becausethe crying can be so intense and
so triggering. But they alwaysdo end. Dr Siggy Cohen, who I
adore, she always says the linethat your power as your parent
is your calm. And I think aboutthat a lot because. Sometimes,
you know, our instinct is to notstay calm and to yell or to get
(15:04):
excitable and match the child'senergy, but it really doesn't
serve anybody, particularlyourselves. I find that if I get
upset or yell, it only makes mefeel guilty afterwards. So that
line I really appreciate, and Itry to really reinforce that to
myself and tell myself that mypower is my calm. Everything is
going to be better off if I canjust stay calm, cool and
collected.
(15:25):
Yeah, and it's a practice,right? We're going to practice,
you know, sometimes we're goingto do great, other times it's
going to be harder. We're goingto learn from it, and then we're
going to practice again. But Ilove this idea. Maybe, in
addition to saying like, this isnot an emergency, another great
phrase that can help us disruptour stress response is saying
this won't last forever. This isjust a moment in time. This is
(15:45):
just a phase. Absolutely,because it's true. It is
absolutely. What's even moretrue is that whatever is, you
know, ruffling your feathers andmaking you upset with your
toddler's behavior right now, orthat's just really exhausting,
you like, say, your childstarted waking up at 2am all of
a sudden, they hadn't been doingthat. Now they are, guess what?
Three weeks from now, it'sprobably gonna be something
completely different. In themoment, we're like, oh my gosh,
(16:08):
this is forever. This is sohard. But our toddlers are just
growing and changing so rapidlyevery day that whatever is
bothering us right now, hertoddler, most likely, in three
weeks, will be a long forgottenthought.
Absolutely I can say that nowthat my youngest child is almost
10, and I'm past thankfully andnot so thankfully, because I do
(16:28):
miss those stages, but past thetoddler stage, it is really true
what they say that. You know, itall goes by very quickly. So
keeping that in mind, I think,also helps add some perspective.
Okay, so now I want to ask youabout toddler standoffs, so to
speak. I have a lot of parentsthat feel very stressed when
they're trying to do somethingfor the better of their child,
like put their coat on when it'scold outside, or help them brush
(16:51):
their teeth or change a dirtydiaper, and their toddler flat
out refuses and tells them no.
How do you advise parents inthose situations when we want to
do something that we know is theright thing for them, but
they're refusing.
Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked,because you gave two examples
that are really great for me to,like, illustrate, like, the
differences between them.
Because, yes, as a parent, wewant to help our kids. We want
(17:14):
to do things that are going tobe supportive and helpful, but
sometimes, in our quest to besupportive and helpful, we're
actually preventing our kidsfrom learning through
experience, and we're trying toprevent something from happening
right now, if we're trying toprevent our child from being
injured, absolutely we need todo that, because it's our job as
(17:35):
the adult to keep Our childrensafe and healthy. So it's non
negotiable, right for a kid tobe buckled into a car seat like
they absolutely just have to,however, when it comes to
putting on a coat, for example,this is a great scenario where a
child could learn throughexperience. We might be sitting
(17:56):
in a power struggle trying toforce them into the coat, but
actually, we could just let ourchild be in charge of their own
bodies and how they're feeling.
We can bring the coat along withus, and when they get outside
and they realize they're cold,then they'll decide to put the
coat on, because, again, at thisdevelopmental stage, toddlers
are craving a sense of controland independence. So when we can
(18:19):
let them have that sense ofcontrol and independence and
make the decision forthemselves. We're going to avoid
a lot of power struggles, andthere's probably not going to be
a lot of harm or child notwearing a coat right
away. I think you bring up areally important distinction,
that when it comes to safety,those are non negotiables. So
absolutely, cars are a greatexample, holding hands when
crossing the street, beingsupervised in the pool. These
(18:41):
are all non negotiables, butwhen it comes to things like
refusing to put on their shoesor putting on a coat or brushing
their hair, even the best, Ithink, is when they learn it
naturally. They learn, oh, Iwalked outside without my shoes
on, and my feet hurt better. Putmy shoes on. That feels better.
Or I walked outside without acoat on, I'm okay for now, but
thankfully, mommy brought thecoat with me. Now I'm cold, and
(19:01):
it feels good to have that. Havethat coat on me, and so if you
learn naturally, that feels alot better for the child and the
parent, because they're learningon their own. We've guided them
without having to force them.
Yes, it's just reduces so manypower struggles, and that's why
I dedicated part of the book totalking about natural
consequences, logicalconsequences and arbitrary
consequences, so we can kind oflearn the difference between the
(19:23):
three and know which ones aresupportive and how to use them.
Gosh, power struggles, and thesetoddlers, it really is hard for
so many parents.
Oh my gosh, even myself right asa parent, and that's why I
always say, like it takes twopeople to be in a power
struggle, and so it's importantto know that if you're waiting
(19:45):
on your toddler to get out ofthe power struggle, you're going
to be waiting a long timebecause they are developmentally
wired to push against us asthey're becoming their own
person for the first time. So wehave to find ways to get out of
the power struggle without beingpermissive, leaving. Power
Struggle in an empowered way.
Whatis your advice on transition?
That's a difficult scenario forparents. Now, certain kids, I
(20:05):
think, have an easier time thanothers, but I was talking to a
mom yesterday, for example, andshe's really struggling with her
kid. Even when she gives her kidFive Minute Warnings, 10 Minute
Warnings, he still has a lot oftrouble transitioning from a fun
event to another event, orspecifically, she was telling
me, when she turns off the TV,he really, really has
difficulty. So what is youradvice for kids that struggle
(20:27):
with transitions?
Oh my gosh. Well, so manythings. First, kids do not have
a really great sense of time atthis age, so saying five minutes
doesn't mean a lot. So using avisual timer, that's like a sand
timer, or another type of visualtimer that's set for five
minutes can be super helpfulusing a transition object. So if
(20:49):
you're trying to leave the houseand your toddler's happily
playing, you're going to avoid apower struggle. When you say,
Oh, wow, you're having so muchfun playing with your cars, look
at how you set them up, and it'stime to leave. Let's grab this
bag and you put the cars youwant to bring in this bag, and
we'll bring them with us. So nowyou're meeting your child where
(21:10):
they're at, and then you'rehelping them with the transition
by bringing a transition object,you know, even if it's like to
the bathtub, put the cars, like,on the bathroom counter. Oh,
they're gonna watch you take abath. They're here, you know,
and looking for ways like that.
I like that a lot, because bybringing a bag with you, the fun
isn't ending, you're continuingthe party. Yes, yes. So
(21:31):
this is helpful for getting outof the house or like transitions
within the home when it comes toscreens, specifically, sometimes
kids have a really hard time,and you might pause it five
minutes before it ends and say,Hey, there's only five more
minutes. And you might watch thelast five minutes with your
child, so you're alreadybringing them out of that like
(21:54):
TV realm back to the presentmoment by sitting with them.
That can make the transitioneasier. And sometimes kids just
need to be seen and heard. I'vehad clients who say, I know you
want to keep watching bluey. Youwish that you could just watch
bluey all day long, and thenjust pause, sit there, see what
your child has to say. Andsometimes kids will all of a
(22:18):
sudden, like, exhale and go,Yeah, I wish I could and like,
they'll walk away or turn offthe TV, you know, like,
sometimes kids just want to feelseen, heard and understood, but
we rush the connection piece soit doesn't have time to work its
magic.
I think that sounds like reallysolid advice for kids, that the
parents sit down with thembefore they turn off the TV,
(22:40):
that they get ample warningtime. I also honestly find that
sometimes just avoiding the TValtogether can be a better
answer, because it's soaddictive for kids, certain kids
in particular, that, yes, it'sso nice because there's common
quiet in the house while they'rewatching the TV, but dealing
with the consequences after youturn it off can be so difficult
(23:02):
that sometimes I think it's justnot worth it. Definitely, if you
find that it's hard every timeyou try to turn off a screen, it
might be a sign that screens aretoo much for your child. And I
have a whole chapter on my bookdevoted to screen time that
actually can show you how totest going screen free in your
home to seeing if that makes adifference, because I've had
clients who have had really bigpower struggles around screens
(23:24):
decide to go screen free, andthen have come back to me after
three weeks and said, Devin,this is the child I always
longed to have, or wish I had,or I always thought was in
there, but I've never seenbecause We've just been using
screens since they were ninemonths old, and I didn't know
this was possible, and gettingrid of screens for three weeks
(23:47):
has completely changed how theirchild interacts with the world,
and then their relationship withtheir child has a result
amazing.
Thank you. Okay, now I love howyou talk about in your book that
toddler behavior iscommunication. So along those
lines, how would you apply thatwhen kids are doing behaviors
that we really don't likeseeing, like biting, hitting,
(24:10):
yelling, how in those situationswould you say that behavior is
their form of communication?
So what I like to say, first ofall, is that when you have an
infant, infants communicate withus by crying. They don't really
have any other way tocommunicate their needs, right?
They either are not crying orthey're crying, so that's really
what they have. And then youhave a toddler on your hands.
(24:32):
They still cry, but now they'vematured physically, and now
they're able to use their bodiesto communicate more. So they
might hit, kick, throw, bite,trying to communicate. And then
you have an older toddler. Thoseare ones and two year olds.
Older toddlers, three and fouryear olds, they still gonna cry,
some still use their bodies, butnow they have a better command
of expressive language, andthey're gonna say things like,
(24:55):
you're not my favorite anymore.
I don't like you. You're a meanmommy. They're going to say
these things now it doesn't meanthat. Literally, that's what it
is. What they're saying is, Idon't like that you said, No,
I'm frustrated that we can't goto the park. I'm mad that we're
not having cookies right now.
But they communicate the bestway they know how. So knowing
(25:18):
that all behaviors communicationand what it's communicating our
needs, like sensory needs,developmental needs and basic
needs, feelings and emotions.
Then once we know that, we canstart to say to ourselves,
instead of saying whatpunishment Does my child need to
have better behavior or to learna lesson, we can say, What skill
(25:40):
or support Does my child need tobe successful here? Because you
have to know that toddlers havevery immature brains and they
lack a lot of impulse controland life experience. So when
they are having these meltdownsabout like the red plate or the
blue plate or leaving the park,what they're really doing is
saying I'm frustrated becauseI'm not in control here, because
(26:03):
they're so developmentallydriven to have a sense of
control.
I also think it's interestingdevelopmentally toddlers, what
they understand and what they'rethinking is way more advanced
than what they're able toarticulate with words. So I read
that a lot of times they canunderstand, you know, 30 times
more than the words that theycan say, and even upwards of
(26:25):
that. So I like thinking of itas, what if you yourself were
dropped off in a country whereyou did not speak the language
and you had to figure out how toget from point A to point B, or
how to get yourself lunch toeat? It would be a very, very
frustrating experience. Youcouple that with a toddler who
doesn't have the emotionalmaturity to handle life's
frustrations, of course, they'regoing to have a meltdown, and I
(26:49):
think when they do things likebite or hit, that's a very quick
way to get a response fromsomebody. Absolutely. What I try
to remind parents is they're notdoing it out of malice. They're
not doing it because they wantto hurt somebody. They're just
doing it because that's how theyget a reaction and a response
well, becausemost behavior is really trying
to get their needs met right,and a lot of behavior is
strategic in trying to get thoseneeds met the best way they know
(27:11):
how. And I just love that yousaid this about can understand
more than they can say. This isprobably one of the most
important points of parents,especially with one to two year
olds, because I always haveparents saying, Okay, I hear
what you're saying. But is thatreally for my one year old, like
they're not talking yet. Buthere's the thing, they're
understanding so much more thanwhat we think. And so yes, they
(27:32):
may not be able to respond, butwe can still say the words, and
they're going to understand mostof it, and we're setting up like
the habit of communication, sowhen they can talk to us, then
that habits are going to be setup on both sides.
It's so funny that you mentionedthe red plate versus the blue
(27:53):
plate, because I totally forgotabout this. But my kids used to
fight over a plate that had anelephant on it. I need to remind
them of that later, but yeah,fighting over the color of
plates. It's a very commonscenario in homes. But you're
right. I think it makes sensethat the toddlers are just
looking for some sort of controlin their life, and there's not a
whole lot that they can controlwhen they're two years old. It's
so true. Now, what about thekids that chronically say no? So
(28:16):
you talked about offeringchoices. Do you have any other
advice for for kids that say no,because I know that that can
feel very frustrating forparents.
Oh, so frustrating. First ofall, one thing you might want to
look at is, how often are yousaying no to your toddler?
Because toddlers are reallygreat mirrors that reflect
things back to us. And so yes,they're developmentally wired to
(28:37):
say no. And if we're saying noevery five seconds, they're just
going to keep pushing backagainst us and saying no all the
time.
Now, what I would love to askyou, do you have any helpful
pieces of advice for parentswhose kids are having behavioral
challenges, like any big pictureadvice that you think would
benefit parents to hear fromyou?
(28:57):
Yeah, well, it was reallyimportant to me, for me to in my
book, include this idea ofhaving behavior red flags,
because so often parents werewondering like, is this normal?
Should I get more help here? Andfirst of all, you have to listen
to your intuition. So if youthink that something isn't
right, or something is atypical,or going out with your child
(29:19):
that seems off, you absolutelyshould bring it up to your
pediatrician. And you know,while it's typical for toddlers
to have tantrums duringtoddlerhood, if you find that
your toddler is just having onetantrum after another all day
long, it's important to lookinto what could this be? What?
What could be the explanationhere? Because sometimes, if your
(29:39):
toddler is having veryaggressive tantrums, several
tantrums a day that where it'slike they never fully get out of
the upset, they never get backto their emotional equilibrium,
and then they're just off to thenext tantrum. This could mean
that there's something elsegoing on, and so you want to
talk again to your pediatrician,or maybe to a pediatric
occupational therapist thatspecializes. In the sensory
(30:00):
system, and so can bechallenging to differentiate
between typical behaviors andwhen behaviors have become more
than that, and you got to listento your
gut. That's great advice. So nowI'm reflecting myself when my
kids were going through thosedifficult toddler years, and I'm
thinking if I could go back intime and talk to myself when I
(30:21):
was raising my younger kids,what advice would I have like to
hear? And I thought I wouldshare some advice, and maybe, if
you know, I'd love to go backand forth and hear what your
advice would be, yes, but onething that I think is really
helpful is having a community, Ithink, getting together with
other parents that have kids ofsimilar ages that really, really
(30:42):
helped make the toddler years alot more fun. So I think, for
anybody listening, if you feellike you're alone, I encourage
you to reach out to, you know,toddler groups, whether it be
online or ideally, I think inperson, getting together with
another mom or another group ofparents at a park, it makes the
park so much more fun whenyou're with other people.
Yes, and don't be afraid to talkto people. I was actually at a
(31:05):
coffee shop yesterday, and Ididn't have my toddler with me,
but there were several toddlerparents there, and, you know, I
chatted with them. And I think,like you know, there's a lot of
opportunities to meet likeminded individuals, if we look
for itabsolutely but yes, I can't
emphasize that enough thatfinding a community, it's the
saving grace. I think I reallyfeel like it makes a difficult
(31:25):
period into a fun time, if youcan find a group and a community
to spend time with, especiallyin those younger years. The
other thing that I find reallyhelpful with toddlers in
particular is getting them outof the house. I think all too
often, parents, I don't know ifwe just feel lazy or there's a
lot of inertia to get kids outof the house, but once you do,
and you get them, especially outinto nature, I think that is
(31:47):
really, really good for all ofus. I feel like the kids get
their energy out, they have agood time when they're outside.
I mean, I find so many toddlers,one of their first words is
outside, and I think that'sbecause they just thrive when
they're outside. So that'sanother thing that I would
encourage parents to keep inmind, is get your kids out of
the house.
(32:09):
I agree. I mean, and out of thehouse when he was an infant and
just crying so much, that wasone of the only things that
calmed him down, was gettingoutside in our backyard.
It's amazing. They say naturemakes the best mobiles.
Yeah, I love that. This is alsowhy my son's in a forest school,
preschool, because he's outsidein nature all day long. It's
just so helpful forhim a forest school, preschool,
(32:29):
I love that so much. Yeah,it's really great. Is the idea
he's outdoors all day, yeah? Soit's only three hours a day,
three days a week, but they'reoutside in all types of weather
exploring. They have a cutelittle classroom built in the
forest, and they're out there onhikes and exploring the pond and
the creek and all the things inbetween.
(32:51):
Oh, he must love it so much.
It's the best. I love thatyou're doing that that sounds
ideal. So parents, if you'relistening and you're looking for
a school, make sure there'splenty outdoor time. I think
that is so important for kids.
And the other thing that I wasthinking, if I could talk to my
younger self, it would be just abig reminder that all of this is
temporary, that the stages don'tlast forever, and trying to
(33:13):
enjoy what you can out of it,because you will one day look
back at pictures and miss a lotof those moments, even though
there were a lot of tantrums anddifficult behavioral moments.
I couldn't agree more with that,and I think that it's hard to
stay stay focused on the biggerpicture when we're in the heat
of the moment. And so justremembering that this doesn't
last forever, that the days arelong, the years are short, it's
(33:35):
important to really try to bringthat perspective back when we
feel like we're just gettingsucked into the emotional roller
coaster.
Emotional roller coaster is agreat way to put it. Now, is
there any other advice thatyou'd like to offer to parents
as they move through the toddleryears that you think would be
helpful for them to hear fromyou?
Yeah, absolutely. In addition tothe things that you said, I
think the biggest thing that Iwould love parents to walk away
(33:58):
with and to think about is justremember that you are human
being, and so is your child. Andso Humans inherently are going
to make mistakes that does notmake you bad or wrong. So your
child does not need a perfectparent. They do not need a robot
as a parent. All of thechallenging moments are
opportunities for learning andgrowth, and so when we're
(34:21):
willing to learn alongside ourchild and not have all the
answers, that's where the beautyhappens. That's where all the
love and connection andvulnerability happens. So just
know that you are a good parent.
You're allowed to make mistakesand learn from them. You're
allowed to repair therelationship whenever you lose
your cool and practice whatyou're going to do next time,
(34:42):
and your child is also a humanbeing with very little life
experience and a very immaturebrain, and you're all just doing
the best that you can. So justcontinue giving yourself
compassion and remembering thatindeed, everyone is just human.
I lovethat we're. Reminder so much, I
will tell you probably not a daygoes by at work where I don't
(35:03):
hear from a parent that they'reexperiencing some feelings of
guilt as to how they'reparenting their kids. So I think
that is such a helpful reminder.
Kids don't need perfect parents.
There's no such thing. Nobody isperfect. But I think trusting
your intuition and trying to doyour best, giving your kids love
that's really all we can hopefor. I agree. So now tell
everybody about your book. Plugyour online community, where can
(35:26):
people learn more from you andfind more about transforming
toddlerhood?
Yes, well, first of all, so mybook is available on Amazon and
everywhere the books are sold.
It comes out October 21 and youcan also go to transforming
toddlerhood.com to learn moreabout the book. And if you're
pre ordering, get access to lotsof great goodies. The other
(35:48):
thing that I want to say is thatthis book is broken down into
five different sections, thetoddler parent, the toddler,
explain, the social toddler, theemotional toddler and the
physical toddler. And to make itsuper easy to find the answers
you need when you need them. Andthe best place to find me and
interact with me on a dailybasis is on Instagram at
transforming toddlerhood. Andsoon I'll be reopening my
(36:11):
parenting community in therewhere everyone can learn all of
the developmentally smartparenting tools that will help
you make parenting easier,amazing, and you're almost at a
million followers Correct? Yes,we're going to have to celebrate
when that happens. That's aworthy milestone. Thank you. I'm
so excited. Well,congratulations to you on your
(36:32):
book, on your following and onbecoming a mother, and I'm so
excited for all of your success.
And thank you so much for takingthe time to come on your child
as normal. It's been a it's beena really fun, fun conversation.
Sothank you. Thank you so much for
having me again. Thank you somuch for listening to your child
as normal. I'm so gratefulyou're here and part of this
community. If you're enjoyingthis podcast, it would mean the
(36:53):
world if you shared an episodewith a friend, subscribe and
left a five star review, anddon't forget to follow me on
Instagram at ask Dr Jessica forparenting tips and updates. See
you next Monday. You.
Hello listeners. This is Dr Jessica Hochman. I'm
(00:02):
excited to share that I am nowbooking sponsorships for your
child. Is normal for this fall.
If you have a product, serviceor a message that you think our
listeners would benefit from,whether it's for parents, kids,
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get back to you.
(00:31):
Hi everyone, and welcome back toyour child is normal. I'm your
host. Dr Jessica Hochman, todayI'm thrilled to welcome back
toddler expert Devon fromtransforming toddlerhood. It's
been over three years since shewas last on the podcast. If
you'd like to go back andlisten, that was episode 40, and
so much has changed for hersince then, she's launched a
course, she's written a book,and she's become a mom herself.
So in this conversation, we talkabout how real life parenting
(00:53):
deepens her empathy, why stayingcalm is a superpower during
tantrums, and we dig intotransitions, screens, natural
consequences and how to reframetoddler behavior as
communication. So if you have atoddler in your life, I think
you'll find this episodeincredibly helpful. Devon offers
practical tools. She helps usunderstand what's really going
on with toddlers, and sheprovides so much reassurance.
(01:15):
Please share this episode withanyone who might benefit from a
thoughtful and encouragingconversation about toddler
behavior. All right. Now let'sdive into my conversation with
Devin from transformingtoddlerhood. I want to take a
moment to tell you about tinyhealth. Tiny health is the first
and only at home microbiome testdesigned specifically for kids.
So as a pediatrician, I'm oftenasked, Should I give my child
(01:36):
probiotics? And if so, whichone? And the truth is,
everyone's microbiome is unique,so without testing, it's nearly
impossible to know what yourchild may actually need. So
that's where tiny health comesin. Their Easy at Home test
gives you a clear snapshot ofyour child's gut microbiome, and
you'll get back personalizedscience based recommendations.
The results help you knowexactly what supports may be
(01:56):
helpful, and sometimes you'llfind that your child doesn't
need anything at all to try tinyhealth for your family. Go to
tinyhealth.com and use the code.
Dr Jessica, D, R, J, E, S, S, I,C, A, for an exclusive discount.
Devin, I'm so happy to have youback on the podcast, and I
cannot believe that it was overthree years that you were last
on Iknow it's just hard to think
(02:16):
that much time has passed.
It's true. And I was so gratefulwhen you agreed to come on my
podcast, because at the time, Iwas just getting started, and
you had already amassed a largefollowing, and when you said
yes, I was so excited. So thankyou again for coming on the
podcast before and coming backon today.
Oh well, thank you so much forhaving me. I mean, I love
(02:39):
talking about toddlers more thananything in the world, so I'm
always jazzed up to doit. So I'm very excited for you.
Since we've last talked, a lothas changed. Yes, we're going to
talk about your book and yourcourse, but also, you've become
a mom since we last spoke.
You know, last night Icelebrated my 42nd birthday, my
son is now three, and I justwasn't even ready for this
(03:04):
moment where he had his birthdaytwo months ago, and he really
started to understand, like abirthday, a party gifts. And so
the night before my birthday, Itold him, tomorrow is Mama's
birthday, he was so excited,asking, do you want balloons?
Can we use the Lightning McQueencandle? And so it made it so
much more special, because hewas so excited and jazzed up to
(03:26):
celebrate with me. And I'm like,I wasn't prepared for such a
fun, special moment likethat. How wonderful to
experience where your child ishappy for you. Yeah, absolutely.
So I'm just so curious, beforeyou became a parent, you were a
toddler expert. We spoke a lotabout toddler behavior and
managing toddler communicationand difficult scenarios that
come up with toddlers. Since youbecome a mom, are there any
(03:48):
stances or thoughts that you hadin the past that have now
softened or changed?
Yeah, well, I would say when itcomes to parenting,
specifically, this stance hasn'tnecessarily change. If anything,
I think it's interesting theemotional bond, right? The
emotional bond with my child hasgiven me access to, like, so
(04:09):
much more empathy. And in thesemoments where I just see him,
like, melding down and upset,I'm just like, oh, this poor
little child, like he is justdoing his best, and he's not
trying to be bad right now. He'sjust really having a hard time.
So it's like, grown my empathyby so much at the same time,
because I see moments where itwould be easier to just be
(04:29):
permissive and not followthrough on a limit or not set a
limit that needs to actually beset. And so there's moments I
notice myself wanting to bepermissive, just so my son will
stop crying, and so I have to,like, remind myself from those
moments, oh, it's important toset this limit. And just because
he's crying doesn't mean I'mdoing something wrong, nor is
(04:50):
there anything wrong with him.
It's just part of the processhere. So that's been an
interesting nuance for me. Andaside from that, it's funny,
there's all kinds of things Isaid I wouldn't do. As a parent,
I don't know, like, buy my kid,like, a bunch of plastic toys
and stuff like that. Andwouldn't you know, my kid's
obsessed with cars, like DisneyCars, and we have so many things
from that. And I'm like, Youknow what? You never know what
(05:14):
your child's gonna be passionateabout, isn't
that the truth? And it's so funwhen they find their passion.
Yeah, I have to say myself,looking back before I had kids
and I was a pediatrician, I gavea lot of advice that after
having kids, I would not giveany more. So I was curious if
you had a similar experiencegiving advice before having a
kid as a toddler, expert andthen afterwards. So it sounds
(05:36):
like in your situation, it madeyou a better mom, a more
compassionatemom. I definitely think I can
see just how hard it is to setlimits and follow through
whenever it's your own child,right, because of the emotional
bond. So I think I have a newlevel of empathy for everyone,
absolutely.
And I think empathy is the keyto making so many life scenarios
easier. You know, the ability tostand in someone else's shoes or
(05:57):
to think, how would it feel if Iwas in their shoes? Just softens
all of the emotions it truly butI'm thinking about before I had
kids at work, let's say theirtoddler injured themselves. I
would tell parents, oh, just putice on it. And then I remember
when I had a toddler trying tokeep ice on their forehead was
impossible. So I now I change itto if you can, if they let you
(06:17):
put ice on their forehead,consider that for a few minutes.
Or another example I'm thinkingof is when when kids are sick. I
would tell parents before I hadkids, keep your kids separated
so that they don't pass theillness from one to the other.
And then after having kids, Irealized that that is an
impossible ask, unless youliterally live in different
homes. So I do think having kidsdefinitely changes the advice
(06:40):
that parenting or child expertsgive in a good way, I hope,
yeah, absolutely, in a moreempathetic way, as you said,
yep. Okay, so, so getting ontoyour book, which I am so excited
for you that you wrote a book Iknow that is no easy feat, and I
can't imagine how much work youput into creating such a
wonderful book. What was theinspiration for you, because I
(07:01):
know there's a lot of books thatexist already on toddlers. What
inspired you to write a book?
What did you think was missingfrom the current bookshelves?
Like, what excited you to writea book that wasn't already
available for parents toread? So I'm so glad you asked
me this question. I startedtransforming toddlerhood in 2018
so all of these years, I've hadso many parents DMing me, asking
(07:22):
me the same types of questionsover and over about biting and
hitting and tantrums and all ofthese things. And I started to
realize that parents are just soexhausted by searching all over
Instagram, Googling everywhereto find quality information on
how to handle all of thesedifferent scenarios, and it's
(07:45):
challenging, right? And you wantto have information you can rely
on. And so what I realized wasmissing is a book that's
basically the equivalent to whatto expect. But for toddlerhood,
we have books that arecomprehensive for pregnancy, for
infancy, but we don't reallyhave it for the toddler years.
So when I wrote transformingtoddlerhood, this is an all in
(08:07):
one, comprehensive guide toparenting kids ages one to five,
we cover it all. We cover whatis a toddler and how do you know
you have one? We coverdevelopment, brain development,
sensory system, decoding,behavior and discipline that is
developmentally smart, and thenbeyond that, we cover more than
27 different common challengesyou're going to face with your
(08:31):
child. And there is a small minichapter on each one of those,
giving you toddler tips,scripts, behavior, red flags,
everything you need to know tobe able to overcome these
challenges. And I just wantedthere to be a quick reference
guide that could be like yourparental companion or best
friend.
What you're saying is, you know,all the questions, all the most
(08:52):
common questions that parentsask when they have a toddler,
and now all of those commonquestions are available in one
book to read, to readexactly. And also, quite
frankly, I want to write a bookthat I could actually read as a
toddler parent. Because rightnow, if you ask me to read a
book that has like 12 chaptersand each chapter is like 20 some
pages, like, I can't make itthrough more than a couple of
(09:13):
pages. I'm like, rereading it.
I'm falling asleep. I mean, I'ma tired toddler parent, so
that's why I wrote a book with abunch of short chapters that
just as really easy to read andeasy to digest, so you just
don't have to go searching tofind the information you
actually need.
Fantastic. That sounds perfect.
Yeah. So I thought I could gothrough with you some of the
(09:34):
most common questions that Ihear at work as a pediatrician,
I think a lot of families willreally appreciate hearing what a
toddler expert has to say, whatyour advice would be. So the
first big question that comes upis a lot of parents are just
plain and simple frustrated whentheir kids tantrum. I think we
tend to take it personally. Wefeel like our kids shouldn't be
tantruming. People are lookingat us, especially if it's
(09:57):
happening in public. Maybe wefeel judged. Maybe we feel like
it's a behavior that should beavoided. How can you help
parents reconsider how we'rethinking about tantrums so that
we don't take itpersonally? Yeah, here's the
thing, it's hard to hear yourchild cry. It is so hard for so
many different reasons, andtantrums are such an important
(10:17):
and typical part of toddlerdevelopment. It's really an
emotional release, right? It'sthe release of all the build up
frustrations and emotions thathave built up for your child.
You know, because toddlers havevery little control over their
lives, and so they're constantlybeing faced with their lack of
control and lack of independencewhen they're in a developmental
(10:39):
period that they have adevelopmental drive to have a
sense of control and to beindependent. So it's very
challenging. And so thosefrustrations build up all day
long, and then something happensthat will push them over the
edge. So my friend Pattywhipfler, the founder of hand in
hand parenting, likes to callthis an emotional poop. So I
find that that's a reallyhumorous way to start reframing,
(11:02):
like, Oh, my child just needs tohave their emotional poop, and
then they're going to feelbetter. Because the reality is,
is that when a child has atantrum and then they're able to
come back to their equilibriumwith our support, then they're
creating that emotionalresilience and learning those
social emotional skills that aregonna serve them for years to
(11:24):
come.
I love that expression, theemotional poop, because adding
some humor to the idea oftantrums, I think is fantastic
and brilliant. Because I find alot of us parents, we sort of
tiptoe around our kids. We sortof walk on eggshells for fear
that they're going to have atantrum. We're afraid to say no
to them for that piece of cake,or we're afraid to tell them no
(11:45):
that they can't have that toy atthe toy store. So I think
reframing it for parents,understanding that it is normal,
that having an emotional releaseis healthy, I think that's a
really positive spin on it, so Iappreciate that perspective.
Yeah, so then that leads me towhile they're having the
tantrum. As you said, it'sreally hard for parents to hear
their kids cry. What advice doyou have for parents to keep our
(12:07):
calm, to keep our cool?
Yeah, well, I think the biggestthing whether it's your child
tantruming, your child, youknow, just took a toy from
someone, your toddler, hit you,whatever the behavior might be
reminding yourself that this isnot an emergency. Is going to be
(12:28):
your best friend if you haveestablished physical safety. So
in a tantrum, establishingphysical safety might mean your
child's not going to, like fallout of a cart at a store, or
they're not going to fall off acouch, or if they're having a
tantrum on the kitchen floor,they're not going to hit their
head on like, the edge ofcupboards or something like
that. So you know your child isphysically safe, and you've
(12:50):
created some distance thatthey're like, lashing out,
hitting and kicking, and thenyou can tell yourself, this is
not an emergency. I am safe. Mychild is safe. Because, quite
frankly, that sense of urgencywe feel that gets us all revved
up as part of our own stressresponse, and it's our job to
disrupt our stress response sothen we can stay calm. And the
more that we can stay calm, thenthe more likely our child is to
(13:13):
calm down faster when we're notjumping on their emotional
roller coaster. And then, onceyou say this is not an
emergency, what you want to dois start looking at, okay, how
do you ground yourself? What aresome grounding practices that
work for you? So maybe it isopening the window, taking a
breath of fresh air, taking deepbreaths, like getting our body
(13:34):
and our senses focused in adifferent direction will
oftentimes help us disrupt thatstress response. So I'm
thinking it's a good reminder tothink of other alternatives.
Yes, I find myself checking out.
You know, look at my phone, orI'll walk away. But better to
stay there and stay present.
But oftentimes, though,honestly, I feel like that if
where we're at in that moment iseither checking out or losing it
(13:57):
on our child, checking out is amore emotionally safe thing to
do. That being said, you don'twant to not check back in, so
it's okay to, like, leave theroom, create some space, maybe
even look at your phone, takesome deep breaths. But then, now
that you've disrupted thatstress response, can you come
back in and engage? So it's notnecessarily bad or wrong what
(14:20):
you're doing because you'redoing what you know that will
keep you from exploding. And ofcourse, there's always
opportunities to try new things,and the ones that I said are
ones that typically work for me,but there's a million ways that
we can ground ourselves right.
I agree. And the other thing Itell myself is that all of these
tantrums, as difficult as theyare in the moment, they always
(14:41):
end. There's always an ending,and usually it feels a lot
longer than it is, just becausethe crying can be so intense and
so triggering. But they alwaysdo end. Dr Siggy Cohen, who I
adore, she always says the linethat your power as your parent
is your calm. And I think aboutthat a lot because. Sometimes,
you know, our instinct is to notstay calm and to yell or to get
(15:04):
excitable and match the child'senergy, but it really doesn't
serve anybody, particularlyourselves. I find that if I get
upset or yell, it only makes mefeel guilty afterwards. So that
line I really appreciate, and Itry to really reinforce that to
myself and tell myself that mypower is my calm. Everything is
going to be better off if I canjust stay calm, cool and
collected.
(15:25):
Yeah, and it's a practice,right? We're going to practice,
you know, sometimes we're goingto do great, other times it's
going to be harder. We're goingto learn from it, and then we're
going to practice again. But Ilove this idea. Maybe, in
addition to saying like, this isnot an emergency, another great
phrase that can help us disruptour stress response is saying
this won't last forever. This isjust a moment in time. This is
(15:45):
just a phase. Absolutely,because it's true. It is
absolutely. What's even moretrue is that whatever is, you
know, ruffling your feathers andmaking you upset with your
toddler's behavior right now, orthat's just really exhausting,
you like, say, your childstarted waking up at 2am all of
a sudden, they hadn't been doingthat. Now they are, guess what?
Three weeks from now, it'sprobably gonna be something
completely different. In themoment, we're like, oh my gosh,
(16:08):
this is forever. This is sohard. But our toddlers are just
growing and changing so rapidlyevery day that whatever is
bothering us right now, hertoddler, most likely, in three
weeks, will be a long forgottenthought.
Absolutely I can say that nowthat my youngest child is almost
10, and I'm past thankfully andnot so thankfully, because I do
(16:28):
miss those stages, but past thetoddler stage, it is really true
what they say that. You know, itall goes by very quickly. So
keeping that in mind, I think,also helps add some perspective.
Okay, so now I want to ask youabout toddler standoffs, so to
speak. I have a lot of parentsthat feel very stressed when
they're trying to do somethingfor the better of their child,
like put their coat on when it'scold outside, or help them brush
(16:51):
their teeth or change a dirtydiaper, and their toddler flat
out refuses and tells them no.
How do you advise parents inthose situations when we want to
do something that we know is theright thing for them, but
they're refusing.
Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked,because you gave two examples
that are really great for me to,like, illustrate, like, the
differences between them.
Because, yes, as a parent, wewant to help our kids. We want
(17:14):
to do things that are going tobe supportive and helpful, but
sometimes, in our quest to besupportive and helpful, we're
actually preventing our kidsfrom learning through
experience, and we're trying toprevent something from happening
right now, if we're trying toprevent our child from being
injured, absolutely we need todo that, because it's our job as
(17:35):
the adult to keep Our childrensafe and healthy. So it's non
negotiable, right for a kid tobe buckled into a car seat like
they absolutely just have to,however, when it comes to
putting on a coat, for example,this is a great scenario where a
child could learn throughexperience. We might be sitting
(17:56):
in a power struggle trying toforce them into the coat, but
actually, we could just let ourchild be in charge of their own
bodies and how they're feeling.
We can bring the coat along withus, and when they get outside
and they realize they're cold,then they'll decide to put the
coat on, because, again, at thisdevelopmental stage, toddlers
are craving a sense of controland independence. So when we can
(18:19):
let them have that sense ofcontrol and independence and
make the decision forthemselves. We're going to avoid
a lot of power struggles, andthere's probably not going to be
a lot of harm or child notwearing a coat right
away. I think you bring up areally important distinction,
that when it comes to safety,those are non negotiables. So
absolutely, cars are a greatexample, holding hands when
crossing the street, beingsupervised in the pool. These
(18:41):
are all non negotiables, butwhen it comes to things like
refusing to put on their shoesor putting on a coat or brushing
their hair, even the best, Ithink, is when they learn it
naturally. They learn, oh, Iwalked outside without my shoes
on, and my feet hurt better. Putmy shoes on. That feels better.
Or I walked outside without acoat on, I'm okay for now, but
thankfully, mommy brought thecoat with me. Now I'm cold, and
(19:01):
it feels good to have that. Havethat coat on me, and so if you
learn naturally, that feels alot better for the child and the
parent, because they're learningon their own. We've guided them
without having to force them.
Yes, it's just reduces so manypower struggles, and that's why
I dedicated part of the book totalking about natural
consequences, logicalconsequences and arbitrary
consequences, so we can kind oflearn the difference between the
(19:23):
three and know which ones aresupportive and how to use them.
Gosh, power struggles, and thesetoddlers, it really is hard for
so many parents.
Oh my gosh, even myself right asa parent, and that's why I
always say, like it takes twopeople to be in a power
struggle, and so it's importantto know that if you're waiting
(19:45):
on your toddler to get out ofthe power struggle, you're going
to be waiting a long timebecause they are developmentally
wired to push against us asthey're becoming their own
person for the first time. So wehave to find ways to get out of
the power struggle without beingpermissive, leaving. Power
Struggle in an empowered way.
Whatis your advice on transition?
That's a difficult scenario forparents. Now, certain kids, I
(20:05):
think, have an easier time thanothers, but I was talking to a
mom yesterday, for example, andshe's really struggling with her
kid. Even when she gives her kidFive Minute Warnings, 10 Minute
Warnings, he still has a lot oftrouble transitioning from a fun
event to another event, orspecifically, she was telling
me, when she turns off the TV,he really, really has
difficulty. So what is youradvice for kids that struggle
(20:27):
with transitions?
Oh my gosh. Well, so manythings. First, kids do not have
a really great sense of time atthis age, so saying five minutes
doesn't mean a lot. So using avisual timer, that's like a sand
timer, or another type of visualtimer that's set for five
minutes can be super helpfulusing a transition object. So if
(20:49):
you're trying to leave the houseand your toddler's happily
playing, you're going to avoid apower struggle. When you say,
Oh, wow, you're having so muchfun playing with your cars, look
at how you set them up, and it'stime to leave. Let's grab this
bag and you put the cars youwant to bring in this bag, and
we'll bring them with us. So nowyou're meeting your child where
(21:10):
they're at, and then you'rehelping them with the transition
by bringing a transition object,you know, even if it's like to
the bathtub, put the cars, like,on the bathroom counter. Oh,
they're gonna watch you take abath. They're here, you know,
and looking for ways like that.
I like that a lot, because bybringing a bag with you, the fun
isn't ending, you're continuingthe party. Yes, yes. So
(21:31):
this is helpful for getting outof the house or like transitions
within the home when it comes toscreens, specifically, sometimes
kids have a really hard time,and you might pause it five
minutes before it ends and say,Hey, there's only five more
minutes. And you might watch thelast five minutes with your
child, so you're alreadybringing them out of that like
(21:54):
TV realm back to the presentmoment by sitting with them.
That can make the transitioneasier. And sometimes kids just
need to be seen and heard. I'vehad clients who say, I know you
want to keep watching bluey. Youwish that you could just watch
bluey all day long, and thenjust pause, sit there, see what
your child has to say. Andsometimes kids will all of a
(22:18):
sudden, like, exhale and go,Yeah, I wish I could and like,
they'll walk away or turn offthe TV, you know, like,
sometimes kids just want to feelseen, heard and understood, but
we rush the connection piece soit doesn't have time to work its
magic.
I think that sounds like reallysolid advice for kids, that the
parents sit down with thembefore they turn off the TV,
(22:40):
that they get ample warningtime. I also honestly find that
sometimes just avoiding the TValtogether can be a better
answer, because it's soaddictive for kids, certain kids
in particular, that, yes, it'sso nice because there's common
quiet in the house while they'rewatching the TV, but dealing
with the consequences after youturn it off can be so difficult
(23:02):
that sometimes I think it's justnot worth it. Definitely, if you
find that it's hard every timeyou try to turn off a screen, it
might be a sign that screens aretoo much for your child. And I
have a whole chapter on my bookdevoted to screen time that
actually can show you how totest going screen free in your
home to seeing if that makes adifference, because I've had
clients who have had really bigpower struggles around screens
(23:24):
decide to go screen free, andthen have come back to me after
three weeks and said, Devin,this is the child I always
longed to have, or wish I had,or I always thought was in
there, but I've never seenbecause We've just been using
screens since they were ninemonths old, and I didn't know
this was possible, and gettingrid of screens for three weeks
(23:47):
has completely changed how theirchild interacts with the world,
and then their relationship withtheir child has a result
amazing.
Thank you. Okay, now I love howyou talk about in your book that
toddler behavior iscommunication. So along those
lines, how would you apply thatwhen kids are doing behaviors
that we really don't likeseeing, like biting, hitting,
(24:10):
yelling, how in those situationswould you say that behavior is
their form of communication?
So what I like to say, first ofall, is that when you have an
infant, infants communicate withus by crying. They don't really
have any other way tocommunicate their needs, right?
They either are not crying orthey're crying, so that's really
what they have. And then youhave a toddler on your hands.
(24:32):
They still cry, but now they'vematured physically, and now
they're able to use their bodiesto communicate more. So they
might hit, kick, throw, bite,trying to communicate. And then
you have an older toddler. Thoseare ones and two year olds.
Older toddlers, three and fouryear olds, they still gonna cry,
some still use their bodies, butnow they have a better command
of expressive language, andthey're gonna say things like,
(24:55):
you're not my favorite anymore.
I don't like you. You're a meanmommy. They're going to say
these things now it doesn't meanthat. Literally, that's what it
is. What they're saying is, Idon't like that you said, No,
I'm frustrated that we can't goto the park. I'm mad that we're
not having cookies right now.
But they communicate the bestway they know how. So knowing
(25:18):
that all behaviors communicationand what it's communicating our
needs, like sensory needs,developmental needs and basic
needs, feelings and emotions.
Then once we know that, we canstart to say to ourselves,
instead of saying whatpunishment Does my child need to
have better behavior or to learna lesson, we can say, What skill
(25:40):
or support Does my child need tobe successful here? Because you
have to know that toddlers havevery immature brains and they
lack a lot of impulse controland life experience. So when
they are having these meltdownsabout like the red plate or the
blue plate or leaving the park,what they're really doing is
saying I'm frustrated becauseI'm not in control here, because
(26:03):
they're so developmentallydriven to have a sense of
control.
I also think it's interestingdevelopmentally toddlers, what
they understand and what they'rethinking is way more advanced
than what they're able toarticulate with words. So I read
that a lot of times they canunderstand, you know, 30 times
more than the words that theycan say, and even upwards of
(26:25):
that. So I like thinking of itas, what if you yourself were
dropped off in a country whereyou did not speak the language
and you had to figure out how toget from point A to point B, or
how to get yourself lunch toeat? It would be a very, very
frustrating experience. Youcouple that with a toddler who
doesn't have the emotionalmaturity to handle life's
frustrations, of course, they'regoing to have a meltdown, and I
(26:49):
think when they do things likebite or hit, that's a very quick
way to get a response fromsomebody. Absolutely. What I try
to remind parents is they're notdoing it out of malice. They're
not doing it because they wantto hurt somebody. They're just
doing it because that's how theyget a reaction and a response
well, becausemost behavior is really trying
to get their needs met right,and a lot of behavior is
strategic in trying to get thoseneeds met the best way they know
(27:11):
how. And I just love that yousaid this about can understand
more than they can say. This isprobably one of the most
important points of parents,especially with one to two year
olds, because I always haveparents saying, Okay, I hear
what you're saying. But is thatreally for my one year old, like
they're not talking yet. Buthere's the thing, they're
understanding so much more thanwhat we think. And so yes, they
(27:32):
may not be able to respond, butwe can still say the words, and
they're going to understand mostof it, and we're setting up like
the habit of communication, sowhen they can talk to us, then
that habits are going to be setup on both sides.
It's so funny that you mentionedthe red plate versus the blue
(27:53):
plate, because I totally forgotabout this. But my kids used to
fight over a plate that had anelephant on it. I need to remind
them of that later, but yeah,fighting over the color of
plates. It's a very commonscenario in homes. But you're
right. I think it makes sensethat the toddlers are just
looking for some sort of controlin their life, and there's not a
whole lot that they can controlwhen they're two years old. It's
so true. Now, what about thekids that chronically say no? So
(28:16):
you talked about offeringchoices. Do you have any other
advice for for kids that say no,because I know that that can
feel very frustrating forparents.
Oh, so frustrating. First ofall, one thing you might want to
look at is, how often are yousaying no to your toddler?
Because toddlers are reallygreat mirrors that reflect
things back to us. And so yes,they're developmentally wired to
(28:37):
say no. And if we're saying noevery five seconds, they're just
going to keep pushing backagainst us and saying no all the
time.
Now, what I would love to askyou, do you have any helpful
pieces of advice for parentswhose kids are having behavioral
challenges, like any big pictureadvice that you think would
benefit parents to hear fromyou?
(28:57):
Yeah, well, it was reallyimportant to me, for me to in my
book, include this idea ofhaving behavior red flags,
because so often parents werewondering like, is this normal?
Should I get more help here? Andfirst of all, you have to listen
to your intuition. So if youthink that something isn't
right, or something is atypical,or going out with your child
(29:19):
that seems off, you absolutelyshould bring it up to your
pediatrician. And you know,while it's typical for toddlers
to have tantrums duringtoddlerhood, if you find that
your toddler is just having onetantrum after another all day
long, it's important to lookinto what could this be? What?
What could be the explanationhere? Because sometimes, if your
(29:39):
toddler is having veryaggressive tantrums, several
tantrums a day that where it'slike they never fully get out of
the upset, they never get backto their emotional equilibrium,
and then they're just off to thenext tantrum. This could mean
that there's something elsegoing on, and so you want to
talk again to your pediatrician,or maybe to a pediatric
occupational therapist thatspecializes. In the sensory
(30:00):
system, and so can bechallenging to differentiate
between typical behaviors andwhen behaviors have become more
than that, and you got to listento your
gut. That's great advice. So nowI'm reflecting myself when my
kids were going through thosedifficult toddler years, and I'm
thinking if I could go back intime and talk to myself when I
(30:21):
was raising my younger kids,what advice would I have like to
hear? And I thought I wouldshare some advice, and maybe, if
you know, I'd love to go backand forth and hear what your
advice would be, yes, but onething that I think is really
helpful is having a community, Ithink, getting together with
other parents that have kids ofsimilar ages that really, really
(30:42):
helped make the toddler years alot more fun. So I think, for
anybody listening, if you feellike you're alone, I encourage
you to reach out to, you know,toddler groups, whether it be
online or ideally, I think inperson, getting together with
another mom or another group ofparents at a park, it makes the
park so much more fun whenyou're with other people.
Yes, and don't be afraid to talkto people. I was actually at a
(31:05):
coffee shop yesterday, and Ididn't have my toddler with me,
but there were several toddlerparents there, and, you know, I
chatted with them. And I think,like you know, there's a lot of
opportunities to meet likeminded individuals, if we look
for itabsolutely but yes, I can't
emphasize that enough thatfinding a community, it's the
saving grace. I think I reallyfeel like it makes a difficult
(31:25):
period into a fun time, if youcan find a group and a community
to spend time with, especiallyin those younger years. The
other thing that I find reallyhelpful with toddlers in
particular is getting them outof the house. I think all too
often, parents, I don't know ifwe just feel lazy or there's a
lot of inertia to get kids outof the house, but once you do,
and you get them, especially outinto nature, I think that is
(31:47):
really, really good for all ofus. I feel like the kids get
their energy out, they have agood time when they're outside.
I mean, I find so many toddlers,one of their first words is
outside, and I think that'sbecause they just thrive when
they're outside. So that'sanother thing that I would
encourage parents to keep inmind, is get your kids out of
the house.
(32:09):
I agree. I mean, and out of thehouse when he was an infant and
just crying so much, that wasone of the only things that
calmed him down, was gettingoutside in our backyard.
It's amazing. They say naturemakes the best mobiles.
Yeah, I love that. This is alsowhy my son's in a forest school,
preschool, because he's outsidein nature all day long. It's
just so helpful forhim a forest school, preschool,
(32:29):
I love that so much. Yeah,it's really great. Is the idea
he's outdoors all day, yeah? Soit's only three hours a day,
three days a week, but they'reoutside in all types of weather
exploring. They have a cutelittle classroom built in the
forest, and they're out there onhikes and exploring the pond and
the creek and all the things inbetween.
(32:51):
Oh, he must love it so much.
It's the best. I love thatyou're doing that that sounds
ideal. So parents, if you'relistening and you're looking for
a school, make sure there'splenty outdoor time. I think
that is so important for kids.
And the other thing that I wasthinking, if I could talk to my
younger self, it would be just abig reminder that all of this is
temporary, that the stages don'tlast forever, and trying to
(33:13):
enjoy what you can out of it,because you will one day look
back at pictures and miss a lotof those moments, even though
there were a lot of tantrums anddifficult behavioral moments.
I couldn't agree more with that,and I think that it's hard to
stay stay focused on the biggerpicture when we're in the heat
of the moment. And so justremembering that this doesn't
last forever, that the days arelong, the years are short, it's
(33:35):
important to really try to bringthat perspective back when we
feel like we're just gettingsucked into the emotional roller
coaster.
Emotional roller coaster is agreat way to put it. Now, is
there any other advice thatyou'd like to offer to parents
as they move through the toddleryears that you think would be
helpful for them to hear fromyou?
Yeah, absolutely. In addition tothe things that you said, I
think the biggest thing that Iwould love parents to walk away
(33:58):
with and to think about is justremember that you are human
being, and so is your child. Andso Humans inherently are going
to make mistakes that does notmake you bad or wrong. So your
child does not need a perfectparent. They do not need a robot
as a parent. All of thechallenging moments are
opportunities for learning andgrowth, and so when we're
(34:21):
willing to learn alongside ourchild and not have all the
answers, that's where the beautyhappens. That's where all the
love and connection andvulnerability happens. So just
know that you are a good parent.
You're allowed to make mistakesand learn from them. You're
allowed to repair therelationship whenever you lose
your cool and practice whatyou're going to do next time,
(34:42):
and your child is also a humanbeing with very little life
experience and a very immaturebrain, and you're all just doing
the best that you can. So justcontinue giving yourself
compassion and remembering thatindeed, everyone is just human.
I lovethat we're. Reminder so much, I
will tell you probably not a daygoes by at work where I don't
(35:03):
hear from a parent that they'reexperiencing some feelings of
guilt as to how they'reparenting their kids. So I think
that is such a helpful reminder.
Kids don't need perfect parents.
There's no such thing. Nobody isperfect. But I think trusting
your intuition and trying to doyour best, giving your kids love
that's really all we can hopefor. I agree. So now tell
everybody about your book. Plugyour online community, where can
(35:26):
people learn more from you andfind more about transforming
toddlerhood?
Yes, well, first of all, so mybook is available on Amazon and
everywhere the books are sold.
It comes out October 21 and youcan also go to transforming
toddlerhood.com to learn moreabout the book. And if you're
pre ordering, get access to lotsof great goodies. The other
(35:48):
thing that I want to say is thatthis book is broken down into
five different sections, thetoddler parent, the toddler,
explain, the social toddler, theemotional toddler and the
physical toddler. And to make itsuper easy to find the answers
you need when you need them. Andthe best place to find me and
interact with me on a dailybasis is on Instagram at
transforming toddlerhood. Andsoon I'll be reopening my
(36:11):
parenting community in therewhere everyone can learn all of
the developmentally smartparenting tools that will help
you make parenting easier,amazing, and you're almost at a
million followers Correct? Yes,we're going to have to celebrate
when that happens. That's aworthy milestone. Thank you. I'm
so excited. Well,congratulations to you on your
(36:32):
book, on your following and onbecoming a mother, and I'm so
excited for all of your success.
And thank you so much for takingthe time to come on your child
as normal. It's been a it's beena really fun, fun conversation.
Sothank you. Thank you so much for
having me again. Thank you somuch for listening to your child
as normal. I'm so gratefulyou're here and part of this
community. If you're enjoyingthis podcast, it would mean the
(36:53):
world if you shared an episodewith a friend, subscribe and
left a five star review, anddon't forget to follow me on
Instagram at ask Dr Jessica forparenting tips and updates. See
you next Monday. You.
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