December 8, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of Your Child Is Normal, Dr. Jessica Hochman sits down with dietitian and author Kim Shapira whose book This Is What You’re Really Hungry For helps people rebuild a peaceful relationship with food.
Kim shares how her own childhood health struggles and experiences with patients led her away from traditional dieting and toward an approach centered on trust, body awareness, and emotional honesty around eating.
- Why using dessert or “treats” as rewards (for shots, potty training, etc.) can wire kids to use food for comfort.
- How to talk to kids about hunger and fullness without shaming them or making them feel watched.
- A different way to think about “picky eating” that avoids labels and keeps the door open for kids to change and explore.
- Practical ideas for structuring meals at home—like always offering fruits and vegetables, involving kids in cooking, and de-dramatizing snacks and sweets.
- Why obsessing over ingredients like seed oils may matter less than the bigger picture of connection, variety, and listening to your body.
Instagram / X / general: @kimshapiramethod
Website: Kim Shapira Method
Your Child is Normal is the trusted podcast for parents, pediatricians, and child health experts who want smart, nuanced conversations about raising healthy, resilient kids. Hosted by Dr. Jessica Hochman — a board-certified practicing pediatrician — the show combines evidence-based medicine, expert interviews, and real-world parenting advice to help listeners navigate everything from sleep struggles to mental health, nutrition, screen time, and more.
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YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Kim, welcome back to your child is normal. I'm your
host, Dr Jessica Hochman, andtoday we're talking about
something that so many familiesstruggle with, food. If you've
ever worried that your child isa picky eater, stressed out
about sugar or food labels, orwondered whether you're
accidentally setting your kidsup for a complicated
relationship with food later inlife, this episode is for you.
I'm joined today by dietitianand author Kim Shapira, whose
(00:22):
book, this is what you're reallyhungry for, focuses on helping
people create peace with food.
Kim has such a refreshingapproach. She's not into
restrictive diets. She doesn'tlabel food as good or bad, and
she encourages helping kids andparents learn to listen to their
bodies and trust their naturalcues. My hope is that this
conversation gives you practicalguidance and confidence and
helps you feel more grounded asyou raise intuitive eaters
(00:44):
without pressure power strugglesor stress at the table. And one
quick note before we getstarted, if you found this
podcast helpful, taking a momentto leave a five star review
would really mean so much.
Reviews help other parentsdiscover the show and also
support your child as normal asit continues to grow. Thank you
so much. Let's get started,Kim, it is so great to have you
(01:05):
here. Thank you so much forcoming on this podcast. I'm so
excited to be with you. Thanksfor having me. So I had the
pleasure of meeting Kim lastweek. We went out to dinner, and
I found out she was a dietitian,and I was expecting, in all
honesty, to see you order asalad, some kale, some water.
And I have to tell you, I was soexcited that what you wanted and
(01:26):
what you ordered was a pizza.
Yeah, and I thought this is adietitian that I like. That's so
funny, yes. And how good wasthat pizza? It was amazing. I
love pizza, but I think I'm soaverse to restrictive diets, and
I'm sure we feel similarly, butthere's so much chatter all the
(01:47):
time about different types ofdiets and what you should and
what you shouldn't eat, and Ijust find it so refreshing that
you're not that way. Yeah, I'mlike, the opposite of that, and
I try and open everybody's mindto be the opposite of that. I'm
just so curious, is thatsomething that you've
intuitively known as yourapproach, or did you come to
that over time? That's a reallygood question, because I think
(02:09):
there's multiple answers. Mymom, I think, had been
restricted growing up, and so wewere not, and I was fortunate
enough to live in a house wherewe had a walk in pantry. It was
like the best room in the house,and we had everything you can
imagine in that pantry andnothing at the same time. But
when my friends would come over,they had seen things that they
(02:32):
were never allowed to be around,and they were not interesting.
Whatever was in the pantrywasn't interesting to me,
because we always had it so likemy go to snack, when I came home
from school, was cutting a headof lettuce and making a salad,
but I had all the hostess andtimons Kudos, like all the
things that you can imagine,that's just not what I
gravitated towards, because Ialways had it. So I think that
(02:56):
was natural, and we didn'treally talk about food growing
up, or anything weight relatedor body related. But I was a
sick kid and I wanted to behealthy, and a doctor or mentor
of mine told me in high schoolthat food can make a person sick
or healthy, and that was it forme. I was like, I want to be
healthy. I want to help people,because I bet they want to be
(03:19):
healthy too. That's sointeresting that your mentors
words made that impression onyou. Yeah, yeah, yes, they
really did, but I was so sick.
So just out of curiosity, youdon't have to share. But how
were you sick as a kid? Yeah,and that's also a good question.
In 1986 I got a stomach ache,and then it turned into so much
more. I went to all sixpediatricians in my practice and
(03:42):
ended up at gynecologist officefour months later. I'm going to
speed through it. I was one ofeight people who had ever been
born with this congenital defectin 1986
so multiple surgeries later anda year like a whole year later,
you know, of all that. And thenI think just victim mentality
(04:07):
and depression and what justhappened to me
took a toll on me, you know, inhigh school, like Epstein, Barr,
like those kinds of things. So Iwas probably low vitamin D, to
be honest, and just not well,and I wanted to I wanted to be
well, I wanted to be healthy. Iwanted my body to be thriving.
So it must be true, and I wouldlove to hear what you have to
(04:30):
say about this. But did thatexperience as a kid and someone
telling you that nutrition couldbe a way to be healthier? Did
that impact your decision inyour career? It must have it did
in every way I knew that I wasgoing to like help people with
food, even though I didn't knowthe first thing about food and
didn't care about food. It wasinteresting because I never
(04:51):
struggled with an eatingdisorder or disordered eating.
But for sure, we all do. We all,for sure, have some disordered
ish if.
I wouldn't label it that, but Iwould call myself picky if I did
use labels. But I don't, youknow, I like what I like, and
I'm very opinionated on what Ilike. I had dinner the other
night with my friend. She wantedto go to sushi, and we went to
(05:13):
sushi, but she's like, What doyou want? I'm like, Oh,
actually, I don't eat raw fish,you know, but I love going to
sushi. I just don't want to eatwhat you're going to eat. That's
fair. I think a lot of peoplehave strong preferences, and I
think it's rare to meet someonewho really, truly enjoys
everything. So sounds likeyou're also being honest? Yeah,
I think I'm being honest, and Ialso am not afraid to be honest
that I don't want to eat certainfoods. And it's just, I think
(05:37):
it's okay. You know, the truthis, our taste buds change every
seven years. So of course, mytaste buds have changed too, and
now I like tomatoes. And, youknow, like when I was a kid, I
wouldn't eat tomatoes, and so,you know, speaking of like kids,
even, I would never label a kidpicky. And maybe that's
something we should definitelytalk about at some point,
because I feel like maybe atsome point I will want to eat
(05:59):
fish, raw fish. But right now Idon't, but I do want permission
to be able to change. Oh, I lovethat. I completely agree with
not labeling anybody anything,because once you put a label on
a kid, they're that picky eater,or they're the kid that doesn't
eat raw fish, then all of asudden that's the way they think
of themselves, and it leavesthem hesitant to open up if they
(06:21):
ever change their mind, which weall change our minds, right? I
mean, it's not uncommon tochange your mind, yeah. And I
want that. I want to be able tochange my mind too. Yeah, when I
think of dietitians, sometimes,maybe I make an incorrect
assumption. But I I wonder, havethey struggled in their life
with eating, and is that whythey chose to be a dietitian?
But your path sounds sointeresting just struggling with
(06:41):
health issues as a kid, whichI'm really sorry that you went
through all that I'm truly notlike I definitely wouldn't be
here without it. Yeah, I shouldtell you, though,
when we would drive to UCLA,which was every Wednesday, so I
would go from Calabasas toWestwood every Wednesday to see
my doctors, my mom would say tome, like, Google Shopping after
(07:03):
your doctor appointment. Soalthough I didn't struggle with
food, I struggled with shopping.
And it became like no matterwhat doctor appointment I went
to or what emotion I wasfeeling, there was going to be
some shopping involved. Earlyon, when I started my practice,
I put my clients on diets,because we were trained to use,
like any diet that you putsomebody on, it would be like,
(07:26):
not calories in, calories out,but I would use a diabetic
exchanges. So I would say, ifyou use this many starches and
this many proteins and this manyfruits and vegetables, we can
basically guarantee that youwon't be hungry, and also you
will lose weight, and alsoyou're going to fix all
metabolic dysregulation, meaningyou're going to improve your
blood sugars, your bloodpressure, your heart problems,
whatever it is. I did thisreally early on in my practice,
(07:47):
and one of my very first clientswho was older than me, probably
my age now, but she was atherapist, and I was not her
first stop. She had been to manypeople before me, and I put her
on a diet, and she lost 30pounds, and I really felt like I
was winning. And then she toldme, after she got off her blood
pressure medication, that shewas going to gain the weight
(08:08):
back. And I said, Why? Why wouldyou gain the weight back? You
just like, improved your health?
And she said, Well, the truthis, my husband wants to be
intimate with me all the time,and I was molested as a child,
and wow, got it in that moment,I really deeply understood that
this had nothing to do withfood, and the way that she's
(08:29):
eating, and the way that myclients are eating is very much
the same way that I'm shopping.
That's really interesting. Soyou're saying that she wanted to
lose the weight, and she wasmotivated to lose the weight,
but her weight was also hershield. It protected her from
being vulnerable. Yes, that'sreally interesting. Yes. And I
also your point about how yourmom took you shopping after
doctor's appointments. What I'mhearing is it was sort of like a
(08:51):
Pavlov's dog experience, whereshe wanted to tie a positive
experience to something negativeyou were going through, so it'd
make it more positive, so thatit made it not as bad. It made
it more palatable. I'd love tohear what you have to say about
this, but I have a lot ofparents where their kids come
here for unpleasantinteractions, for example,
getting their vaccinations. Andall the time they'll say to
(09:12):
their kids in front of me, afteryou get your shots, we're going
to go get ice cream, or I'llhear it in a lot of situations.
After if you potty trainyourself. I'll give you candy.
And I notice a lot of parentstie unpleasant Doctor
interactions or medicalexperiences with a treat or
dessert. The way I think aboutit is I don't want my kids to
put that much weight, to putthat much pleasure into dessert
(09:34):
or something that I know isunhealthy for them, because then
I worry forever. Are they goingto think, Okay, I'm having this
unpleasant situation. Well,afterwards, I'm going to treat
myself to dessert, which I don'tknow if that's the best habit to
really obsess with what you'resaying right now, I'm obsessed
with it, and it's exactly righton and like, you can use me as
like, an example, right? Therewas one day I was crying,
(09:58):
driving to use.
La, and my mom said, don't cry.
We'll go shopping. And she tookmy irrational mindset and she
gave me comfort and fun, and shedidn't help me get back to a
rational mindset. And the truthis, is that we do everything 47%
the way we did the day before.
(10:18):
We sleep, walk througheverything that we do, so we
have to be super intentional tomake some changes, and people
don't like to do hard work, andso it's just really easy, just
to repeat old behaviors. Butwhat our mind is doing the
second it becomes stressed,let's say, and stress can come
in the form of, I'm worriedabout getting a shot, I'm in
(10:39):
physical pain, or I'm full orI'm hungry, it can also be I'm
really worried about going toget the shot right. Those are
the types of stress that wehave, but our body can't tell
the difference, and our brainkind of flips its lid in under
10 seconds in response to anyone of those stresses. And then
we automatically try and think,How can I make this moment more
(11:00):
pleasurable, and then if it'sshopping or if it's ice cream,
after we've kind of sealed thedeal that the next time I feel
this way, I'm my mind is goingto tell me that's the best thing
I can do in this moment. We'dhave to be so aware. First of
all, I'm emotionally triggeredor stressed out, and second of
all, that's funny that my mindis giving me this idea, I don't
(11:23):
really want ice cream. It's likefive o'clock in the morning, you
know, like, why am I thinkingabout it? So we have to be so
aware and rational. I thinkwhat's so hard as a parent is
that I really want to teach mykids good, healthy eating
habits. You know, they're onlywith me for so many years, and
this is something that I caninstill in them so that when
they grow up, hopefully theywon't have quote, unquote,
(11:43):
eating issues. Yeah, but what Ifind tricky is you don't want to
put that much weight onunhealthy foods like your mom
did, right? You want to makesure sugar doesn't feel
forbidden, that treats don'tfeel forbidden, so that it's not
as appealing because it's thereand available. But at the same
time, you want to teach themhealthy eating habits, yeah?
(12:03):
Because the truth is, I don'twant my kids to eat hostess,
right? Don't want them to eattoo much junk. And so I think
that's where it's hard asparents, you want to raise them
to be healthy eaters, but youalso don't want them to obsess
about it, yeah, and I geteverything you're saying, and at
some point we have to trustthem, right? We have to also
recognize this is their journey,and I'm only their guide. And
(12:26):
you know, modeling a behavior isway better than restricting
something. So when you thinkabout, like, what you said about
if you're going to have a shot,then you're going to go for ice
cream, we want a child to say,Okay, what you're doing is
you're getting the shot, andthis, it could hurt, it probably
won't. But also, I'm curious howyou feel when you have it, and
(12:46):
it's probably doing somethingfor your body that you need, and
afterward, you probably won'tremember anything about it. But
I'm curious how you feel aboutit, like actually talk to them
about it, but don't try andreward them, because that child
will grow up to be an adult. Youdon't want to sugarcoat it. Pun
intended, yeah, right. And like,at the same time, like, I really
(13:09):
prefer and also coach people notto eat while they're distracted
or in front of the TV. And a lotof parents will say, but this is
what we do on Friday night. Youknow, we sit in front of the TV
or whatnot, and that's okayoccasionally, but the reality is
these kids will grow up with thehabit of having a snack or
eating in front of the TVbecause they trained and
rehearsed that practice over andover and over. I completely
(13:32):
agree with that, and parentsoften tell me, with their
younger children in particular,that they're really stressed out
because their toddler doesn'teat very much doesn't eat
dinner, which is so typical fortoddlers, they're notoriously
not big eaters, especially whenyou prepare them a dinner. Yeah,
and they will, quote, unquote,trick them to eat more by
distracting them, by puttingthem in front of a screen. And I
(13:53):
really discourage parents fromdoing that, because, okay, you
may see them eat more, but thenyou're teaching them the habit
that you eat while you're bored.
You eat while you're distracted,as opposed to really being
present, savoring the food,enjoying the taste, enjoying
your company. I think it's areally bad habit, so I encourage
parents to stay away from thatat the outset. Yeah, I mean, I
stopped putting people on dietsprobably 28 years ago, to be
(14:15):
honest with you at this point.
And I teach them what hunger is,and I teach them what satiety
feels like, and I teach themwhat inflammatory issues feel
like in your body. And I remindthem to trust themselves and to
come back to connecting to whattheir body is telling them. And
a lot of people, I mean, I havethis fun book club that I do a
(14:37):
couple times a year, and we justsat and kind of read 50 pages
together, and it was a group of,like, probably 45 women, and
they fear hunger, and it's like,nobody wakes up in the morning
and thinks I'm going to have topee six times today. I really am
worried about that, and wherethose toilets were going to be.
Everybody wakes up and truststhat they will find a toilet
(14:58):
when they need one. And.
Sometimes it could get a littleuncomfortable, but it's not the
end of the world. But withhunger and with eating, there's
so much stress that goes intoit. I am also not somebody who
labels food good bad health orunhealthy at all. I call all
food banana, and I say, eat thebanana when you're hungry.
There's so much that you saidthat I'm just thinking about in
(15:19):
my own personal life, how I grewup. You know, I'm thinking, My
mom has a fear of being hungry.
It's a real fear. She cannot goto sleep where she thinks she's
going to be hungry. So shealways, always, always has a
snack before bed, because sheworries that she's going to wake
up hungry. And so what you'resaying, it's interesting,
because we live in this land ofplenty, it's not like food is
hard to find. It's everywhere,everywhere. But it's true that
(15:42):
it's a real fear that peoplehave. Yeah, I would love to talk
about your book. So that bringsme to the title of your book,
which I love so much. It'scalled this is what you're
really hungry for. So can youtell us what inspired the title?
I think you've shared somenuggets that may have led you to
this title, but I'm curious, howdid you pick this title? It's a
good question. You're good atthe questions. I had a client
(16:03):
today who came to me and shesaid, I want to lose 15 pounds.
And I said, so the goal of thiscall is to lose weight? And she
said, Yes. And I said, Do youmind if I I remove that goal?
And she goes, No, no. That's whyI'm calling you. I said, Can I
shift that goal into I want tolearn the practice of learning
how to keep the weight off. Mostpeople think like, oh, I just
(16:26):
want to lose weight. And thenthey don't worry about the day
after, and then they don'treally have a practice built in.
So I decided I was going to flipit and give them a practice that
was going to give them the sideeffect of the results they
wanted. And what it comes downto is, it's really funny, all
the answers I get when I askpeople, What are you hungry for?
Donuts, pizza, you know, I'mlike, no, no, what are you
(16:49):
really hungry for? And it's Ilike to open people's minds to
this idea of like, we don'treally want to worry about our
weight or food or our health. Wejust want it to be natural in a
given and so that's kind of likewhere it came from. The answer
is, we want peace that is sotrue. You just want to take it
off the table. There's so muchmental anguish and energy that
(17:11):
can go into thinking about yourweight, your kids, weight,
weight, in general, and it'sexhausting. And it would be so
nice to find peace from that forso many families, I think they
can relate to that statement.
Yeah, I hope so. So the goal isto figure out how to find peace
from what you're eating. Yeah,also, like, I think parents
(17:33):
should refrain from labelingfood too. I mean, I think it's
going to be a hot button foryou, so I want to kind of like
push that button a littlebecause I'm curious what you
think. Like not everybody is thesame, even though we're all the
same, sort of speak right? Weall have 37 trillion cells, and
our body's functioningrelatively the same, but some of
us have had antibiotics or highstress levels, or some of us
(17:58):
don't move as much, some of usdon't sleep well, and we have
different levels ofinflammation, and so not all
foods are the same, or our bodyreacts to food. I mean, you got
people with allergies andsensitivities, and so what's the
point of labeling a food likeShouldn't we make it a personal
experience? Absolutely, Icouldn't agree with that more. I
(18:22):
have to say, I when I find ayoung child who uses the word
macros or who talks about theirprotein consumption, it's not my
favorite, to be honest, becauseI feel like they're so young and
they should be kids, and theyshould just be eating for the
joy of it, and they shouldn't bethinking like so many adults,
think they're too young to worryabout protein and processed
foods and red dye, 40 and sugar.
And I do understand that someeducation is really helpful for
(18:45):
kids. I do try to educate mykids to a point I'll ask them,
for example, is this a foodthat's grown from the earth? You
know, if you can visualize wherethe food comes from, where it's
grown, how it's made, those aregood choices. But I try really
hard not to get into the nittygritty, because I just don't
think it becomes mentallyhealthy. Nutrition education is
very, very tricky, becausethere's a lot of shame involved,
(19:07):
and I think you're smart indoing it that way. Like I said,
we're all very similar, and wedo need the same things, which
is a variety of fruits andvegetables, whole grains, fiber,
omega threes, fermented food,probiotics. But our bodies are
capable of healing in so manyways. And so you know, a client
of mine, her daughter, was inand out of drug rehab, and
(19:31):
finally, this one time, she hadjust come from breaking her her
leg, and then it healed. Andturned to her mom, and she said,
you know why this one's going tobe different? Because I didn't
know I could heal. And I thinkit's deeply profound to really
love and respect our body somuch that we offer all that we
can to support it, but we do notget caught up in the small
(19:55):
stuff, like I talk about sixrules all the time.
I use the word rules on purposebecause it's kind of like in
kindergarten, you have rules,and these have to become a
practice, and they have tobecome the essence so you grow
up and to be this person whoalready has this built in
practice, right? And one of therules is to eat when you're
hungry. And so then I'll say tothem, okay, but now, where does
(20:18):
cake fit in? And it's confusing.
And I would say cake is normal.
It's very normal to have cake.
It's also very normal to notalways have cake, but if you
have to have cake every singleday, we have a problem. But it
doesn't always have to be whenyou're hungry. And so like when
my kids came home from schoolevery day, and my kids now are
2119and 16, there would be a plate
(20:41):
of cut fruit and cut vegetableson the counter, like ready for
their snack. But they would alsogo into the snack drawer and get
anything they wanted. So maybe Imade muffins that day, or there
was, like, 100 calorie packs,who knows. But it was always a
combination of things as it'salways been. And it was never,
know you can't have it, but itwas more. How does that make you
(21:01):
feel? You're complaining of astomach ache. I wonder if it's
that. What if you tried nothaving it and see how you felt?
So you lead with the healthyfood. You make sure you offer
the healthy food. Yeah, I don'tcall it healthy, but yeah. Okay,
okay, yeah. I mean, blueberriesgive me diarrhea if you really
want to know. And they're superfood. So not all foods treat
everyone the same, yeah, to yourpoint, everybody has different
(21:24):
sensitivities. My daughter, forexample, she can't have carrots.
They make her stomach hurt,yeah? And for most people, I
would say it feels like a verynutritious food. Yeah, it has a
lot of nutrition, yeah. So Iwould say, you offer it, the
kids will eat it, but I wouldn'tlabel it. Basically, you're
taking the power away from it.
(21:44):
You're putting it out there. Ifthey're hungry, you'll trust
they'll have a bite. They'llhelp themselves, without putting
any stress or shame on whatthey're eating. Yeah. So I love
how you talk about trusting yourbody, teaching a kid to trust
their body, and I agree withthis in principle. I think as an
adult, I can tell when a food,you know, I don't want to say
the word unhealthy. I have tobreak this habit, but a less
(22:06):
good choice for my body makes mefeel not great if I have a lot
of cake, for example, or toomany of my mom's homemade
cookies. But I find with mykids, that doesn't happen very
often, their bar until they'renot going to feel good is pretty
high. And so how do you impartthat wisdom to a child who can
have three in and out burgersand still feel great, and
(22:29):
explain that that's not the bestchoice for a growing body. Is it
three hamburgers in a row, orthree in a day? Three in an
hour?
My son, who was in seventhgrade, he could definitely put
away a few hamburgers if I lethim. Yeah, that's funny. Okay,
and how was he before thehamburgers? Now we're just going
(22:49):
to pick on your son. I feel bad.
Don't feel bad. He's actually agood eater, so I'm a little bit
exaggerating, but I would say hewas hungry for dinner. Yeah.
Okay, so I try and remind peopleto smell their food, not so
literally, but also literally,right? Because we need to use
our mouth for what it was madefor, which is breaking down
food. It's our first form ofdigestion. So sometimes just
(23:12):
smelling food or thinking aboutlemons or pickles creates
salivary amylase, which we need.
And then, you know, all of ourteeth, we're supposed to chew
our food between 15 and 44 timesper bite. And so, like steak, 44
bites. Maybe a banana would belike three or four, right? But
somewhere in there is the truthof what you need to be doing.
(23:34):
And this is not a popularopinion, but this is the truth
food is very, very boring if weeat it correctly. So what
happens is your son would nowsmell the hamburger just like
basically he knows that he'sready for food. If we don't get
saliva, it actually means thatour body is telling us we're not
ready for food. We could be in aheightened, anxious state, and
(23:55):
we need to kind of take somemore deep breaths until we
actually feel the saliva. Andthen I would recommend taking a
bite of the hamburger, puttingthe hamburger down, and now we
gotta chew the food. Superboring. Nobody likes to chew it
because we like to chew, chew,chew, swallow instead of chew,
like 10 or 15 or 20 times we aresupposed to swallow liquid,
boluses, right? If we're not,then we're actually making our
(24:19):
stomach do more work than it'sintended to, and it can't do the
work. Our stomach is very, veryacidic, and it's meant to break
down proteins, fats, viruses,funguses, all that. But if we
don't properly break it down inour mouth, we actually then
create inflammatory responses.
And so with your son, who's inseventh grade, my guess is he's
getting very hungry, and he'seating very quickly, and he's
(24:40):
missing out on really importantthings. And so instead of
focusing on this is bad or thisis junk, what I would say is I
wonder what would happen if youslowed down. I think that's
great advice, because I'm justthinking about in today's fast
paced world where parents arealways on the go, taking their
kids to soccer practice, back toschool, back from this activity.
You to the next activity. Ithink a lot of us eat on the go.
(25:03):
We're always in a rush, and asI'm hearing you talk, I'm
thinking about how I'm somethingthat I really want to work on is
finding the time to really sitdown with my kids and have meals
where we take our time, wherewe're not in a rush. Because I
think that would hit on a lot ofwhat you're saying. It would
give us time to smell food, tochew slowly, to really enjoy a
nice quality meal together, allof that, and also it's what your
(25:27):
body actually needs. So likehunger is based on your ghrelin
hormone, right? It sends asignal to your brain, it's time
to eat. And then satiety, orfullness, is based on leptin,
the hormone that tells yourbrain, okay, we're satisfied.
And that happens from the 15minutes mark, from the moment
you start eating. And so I oncehad a client who, every time she
(25:49):
would go into advisory, theteacher would bring donut holes.
And she was a kind of person whowould eat like, three donut
holes very quickly. And when Ithought of myself eating donut
holes, I thought, I think Iwould take bites of a donut
hole. I wouldn't pop it in mymouth, so I probably would take
two or three bites of a donuthole, which means I'm eating one
donut hole at the same timeshe's eating three donut holes.
(26:11):
And so when I'm thinking of theexample of your son eating three
hamburgers, it's because he's sohungry and he's doing it so
fast. Or else he doesn't reallyever get access to those
hamburgers, and he doesn't knowwhen he's going to get it again,
and so we tend to overeat or eatfast when something is not
available. So I think this is areally helpful tip, because I
(26:35):
talk to a lot of parents thatare very stressed, honestly,
very, very stressed, becausethey notice their kids have not
so healthy habits, that theyfill up on really processed
foods, that they look for thechips and the cookies and more
junk food. And we talk about howto help the kids avoid those
foods and how to substitute forother foods, but what I'm
learning from you is that maybeit's not about stopping them
(26:57):
consuming those foods. It'sabout teaching them to
appreciate them, to slow down,to chew them. Maybe that's
something that I need to stresswith families. Yeah, I really
wish you would. I think youwould see, first of all, a lot
of peace, a lot of fear, first,especially if they think their
kid's going to eat the whole bagof chips because they haven't
been given the chips, andsuddenly they're bringing chips
(27:18):
into the house. But what I woulddo with chips is they would be
part of a meal, right? So theywould be next to the fruits and
vegetables. I remember whenNatasha, she was 16, when she
was really, really little, shewanted ice cream once for
dinner. She didn't say how muchshe wanted, and so I got, like,
the tiniest little cup, and Iput it right next to the dinner,
(27:39):
and she just ate it with herfood. We didn't call it special.
We didn't call it a treat. Wedidn't call it anything, right?
I mean, there were so manythings that I did when my kids
were growing up, like we mademenus, very loose menus, but
each kid got one night, andevery single night, like Olivia
would pick, let's say chickenand potatoes, but every single
night there were fruits andvegetables cut, and then there
(28:01):
was also a salad or steamedvegetable or roasted vegetable
on top of the cut fruits andvegetables, because maybe
Natasha didn't eat the chicken,or she didn't like the potato,
but I knew that she would eatfruits and vegetables, and my
job was done, right? And thenevery single night, a kid got a
night, and we just always, nomatter what, had so many fruits
(28:22):
and vegetables, like, so many,like, there was five of us
growing up, so that's like, youknow, three or four fruits a day
we had, like, what, 3040, piecesof fruit in the fridge available
to be cut. You sound like agreat mom. You're putting a lot
of love to your kids through howyou feed them. And that's really
beautiful. Thank you. So Iwanted to talk about some of the
(28:43):
rules in the six simple rulesthat you laid out in your book,
you mentioned the rule that youhave to eat when you're hungry.
So I'm just curious, how wouldyou talk to a kid about that?
Because I feel like the tonereally matters. Some parents, as
they see their kid havingdessert, I can picture my mind
them saying, Are you reallyhungry? Do you really want that
food? And that's sort of alreadyinstilling a little bit of
(29:03):
shame, I think, in the waythey're saying it. So how should
a parent check in on a kid andmake sure that they're eating
when they're hungry? Yeah, Ilearned a long time ago, when
Olivia was like a newborn in mymommy and me class, the teacher
said, when your child is walkingdown the sidewalk and they fall
and they start crying. Don'tever tell them, Don't cry. This
(29:27):
doesn't hurt, because you can'tactually see the pebbles that
are buried in their skin. And Ithink that it's really important
to trust your child. And so Iwould ask, what does hunger feel
like? Do you feel it in yourstomach? Do you feel it in your
chest? Is it in your hand? Yourhands? Is it in your head?
Because hunger should beisolated to your stomach. It's
not scary, it's notuncomfortable, but it does get
(29:50):
louder when you ignore it. Is ita little hungry? Let's talk
about what a little is, but therule is to you when you're
hungry and just start with half.
And so there's a fail.
Safe that no one's over eatingright because the other half is
just on hold right there. Andthis really came from me wanting
to buy something I couldn'tafford, so I put it on hold, I
walked away, and then Irealized, Oh, actually, I don't
(30:11):
want it. I do that with Amazonshopping. I put in my cart, and
I make myself sit on it for aday or two. Yeah, it's the same
thing. So if we just put itthere, and then we also feel
safe that it's right there, thenwe don't need to overeat it. So
I would be playful about this.
What does hunger feel like?
Because it's not scary. It'sinteresting. Because, as you
(30:32):
mentioned, a lot of people dofear hunger. And so I wonder how
much of it comes from ourchildhood, and how much of it
can we try to correct? Yeah, Ithink a lot of it, I remember
going every time I had to have ablood test in the morning and a
fasting one, I was petrified,like I was going to starve to
death. And then one time, mydoctor was running really late,
and I didn't starve to death,and I was, like, amazed. It's an
(30:54):
expression, right? Not thereality, yeah. So when you talk
about the satiety hormones andthe hunger hormones like ghrelin
and leptin. I'm so curious, dothose actually work against us,
like when people are feelinghungry? I've always read that
there's a natural set point inthe body that if you end up
losing some weight, the bodywill want to bring you back to
(31:15):
that original set point, 100%100%
Yeah. So, I mean, there's somuch we can talk about just
right, you know, like ournatural GLP, one, our natural
glucagon, like peptide hormone,that when that's in harmony, we
actually can feel hunger andsatiety. But what's really
amazing about this is that ourbody thrives in consistency. And
(31:37):
so if you eat, you know, let'ssay 2000 calories today. You
don't need to count caloriestomorrow, your body will drive
your appetite to get the sameamount of food, not in calories,
but in weight. Interesting,yeah, and so let's just say you
binged. Then you can bet thatyour body is going to drive you
(32:00):
to get the same amount of foodand weight the next day. And
what's really interesting isI've never kept track of my,
like, what I'm eating orwhatnot, but the ranch in Malibu
sent me, like, a couple days offood. So it was like three days.
Didn't look like a lot, but itwas like normal amount of food.
And so I just wanted to try andsee how I felt. So this is,
(32:21):
like, the first time I've everexperienced experimented with
something like this, and I atethe flat bread when it came or
whatever, and I was hungry andready for the meal when I ate
it. And I was satisfied everysingle day for those three days,
but the next week, I wasravenous, like I couldn't catch
up to getting satisfied. So it'svery interesting how our body
(32:45):
can communicate. So then thequestion is, then, how do we
really lose weight, or how do wereally make changes? Right?
Absolutely, and I'm thinkingthere was a time in my life
where I gained some weight. Fromthe end of high school through
the first couple years ofcollege, I was steadily gaining
10 pounds a year, and before Iknew it, I was about 40 pounds
overweight. And I rememberfeeling hungry. My mom would say
(33:08):
to me, you just had dinner andyou had dessert, and you're
still looking in therefrigerator for more food. And
I truly felt hunger in my body,and I remember that was a really
hard habit to break. I knew Iwas overeating, but I really
wanted and was craving food. Andwhat made a shift for me was my
junior year, I did a semesterabroad in Spain, and the way
they eat is very different.
There's not really foods tosnack on. It's a different food
(33:29):
culture than we have and I waswalking a lot to class, and the
weight slowly started to comeoff. It came off very naturally.
And then I started to have ahabit where I wasn't as hungry
anymore. I sort of got used tohaving less calories or less
food every day, and then it justsort of stayed with me. Does
that fit into your story? Noway. Yeah, it does. It does. But
it also fits in to the emotionalpiece. Because, like, I wish I
(33:51):
could have asked your youngerself, like, where did you
actually feel hunger? Probablystress. I mean, looking back, I
was pre med, and I would havesnacks while I would study,
because it was something that Icould look forward to. Yeah, so
have dried mangoes while Istudied. Were they nutritious?
It was an excess. So in thatway, it was not healthy. It was
not nutrition. This is one ofthe reasons why I'd be careful,
(34:14):
because, like, we rationalizewhat we consider healthy all the
time, and our body can't tellthe difference between
strawberries and ice cream whenwe're not hungry, so I would not
call something healthy,especially if it's you know,
causing you to maybe have someghrelin resistance, where you
really weren't able to recognizewhat true hunger was versus
(34:35):
emotional hunger. But what Iloved about your story was so
beautiful, because what youfound was yourself, right? You
walked, you ended up eating justas much as you needed. And Spain
wasn't about the food, it wasabout the culture, and it was
something exciting, and therewas some ease in your day. And
so like, yeah, we have tooverhaul our lives.
(35:00):
Types, sometimes we have to havereally good boundaries and say,
You know what, I'm going tospend an hour walking every day,
or I'm going to start takingworkout classes and build some
muscle in my body. And I can'ttell you how many times people
want to argue with me when I sayfood is not fun. And they say
no, but it is. And like, youknow, when I was at dinner with
you, my food was delicious, butit wasn't my fun. You were my
(35:23):
fun. You were my entertainment.
Yeah, actually, really agreewith that. Good company is the
entertainment, exactly. And sowhen we misplace it and think
it's about the food, most eatingdisorders or emotional eating,
it's never about the food, butwe do make it about the food.
But I have to say, I really canenjoy a good meal. I really do
love when food tastes good andit feels it should satisfy and
(35:43):
enjoyable, yes, but it shouldn'tbe our form of fun or
entertainment or our source ofcomfort, and it's also not the
enemy. The only thing I wouldsay to that is we have to do it
so often, right? You can't noteat, yeah, and we often eat
multiple times a day. So in mymind, I always think, because we
have to do it so often, why notmake it something enjoyable? So
(36:05):
I actually do try to think offood as an enjoyable experience.
I'm because 21 times in a weekminimum, hopefully. But Rule
number two is to eat what youlove. I'm not going to eat what
I don't love. I love deliciousfood. I love what I love. I see
what you're saying, but I do itwhen I'm hungry, and only as
much as I need trusting I'mgoing to eat it again, probably
(36:28):
in three hours. It's not ourentertainment, it's our
sustenance, and we shouldsustain ourselves with food that
we actually enjoy the taste of.
Studies prove that we taste thefirst and last bite of
everything we eat and nothing inthe middle. So I would challenge
everybody to eat, to be present.
Like your son probably notpresent, and he probably would
have wanted to be I've actuallytried to teach that rule to my
(36:50):
kids when we go for ice cream,I'll tell them, there's the law
of diminishing returns. Thefirst bite that you have is the
best, and every bite after thatis not going to be as enjoyable.
And they'll have 1015, bites,and they'll say, Mommy, we're
still enjoying our ice cream.
That's good, as they should.
Yes, as they should. That'sgood. Then they're doing it
right? They're full of presents,you know? Perfect. Okay, good,
(37:11):
good, yeah. And I think I wantthem to pay attention to when
they're not enjoying it anymore,to stop, because at that point
it becomes mindless. And yeah, Imean, we have six thoughts a
day, right? And sometimes thosethoughts are, this isn't enough
food, and sometimes the thoughtis, this is going to be too much
food. Either way, it's reallyhonoring what is my mind saying.
(37:34):
And also, like is that the truthis there truth behind what my
mind is saying. Because most ofthe time our mind is lying to
us. It's trying to help us getinto a more pleasurable moment.
That's true. We are creaturesthat seek pleasure, that is for
sure.
So I'm curious. You want to talkabout picky eating, and your
thoughts on picky eaters? Thatis a question that I do get all
(37:55):
the time from parents. There's alot of stress in the house
because parents feel like theirkids are so picky, and that's
something that they need toimprove and work on with their
kids. So what do you have to sayto that? What would you tell
parents that find stress overtheir kids being quote, unquote
picky? Yeah, don't label them aspicky. Let them show you who
they are and give thempermission to change. So I would
(38:17):
take them to every kind ofsupermarket, farmer's market,
any little farm that you can goand I would have your child get
their hands on the food, in thefood, cooking the food, taking
ownership of the food. Theydon't have to try it. A child
has to see a food 10 timesbefore they're even interested
in trying it. But give the childtotal ownership over the food,
(38:41):
like, what would you like tomake? You know, for dinner
tonight, what should we add tothe meal? Make them a
participant. Don't label themand don't make them feel bad
about food. It's true. When mykids are active participants,
they're much more likely to eatthe food. My oldest daughter has
gotten into baking, and she'sgotten into some light cooking,
and when she makes the foodherself, when she has some say
(39:02):
in it, I know for sure she'sgoing to eat that food. Yeah,
there was a study done many,many years ago. They took
kindergarteners, and they askedthe kindergarteners to stand
still for as long as they could.
And I think these five year oldscould stand still for like,
three minutes. And then theysaid to the kindergarteners,
okay, now pretend you'reguarding a princess, and these
young kids stood for 30 minutesin play. And so when we can get
(39:26):
them to use their imaginationand to be playful, they'll do
anything. That's a great tip. Ido think whenever you can add in
some playfulness, making thingsa little lighter, adding in
humor, maybe some stories, kidsrespond very well to that. Yeah.
Now, what about parents? So youmentioned that your mom had her
own stuff around eating, and shewas able to raise you in a way
(39:48):
where food wasn't restricted.
Yeah, I love that, and I'm justassuming. Do you think that's a
lesson that we parents shouldlearn from your mom and how she
i.
Actually think so. My mom didn'treally share a lot. She just
when she goes shopping, shewon't buy elastic pants, and she
also doesn't like label food, ornecessarily think that people
(40:11):
should be restricted, because Ithink she had been. And so it
wasn't a big topic growing up,which is interesting when I look
back and I'm so grateful, but itwas just just simple things that
she told us intuitively. Itsounds like she knew she wanted
to do it differently. Yeah,yeah. She modeled a great
behavior my mom's rule, which Iactually really appreciate. She
(40:35):
said she would bake for usanytime we asked, and she really
did, but she didn't want us tohave food that was made with any
kind of chemical. So as a kid,we didn't have Oreos and we
didn't have a lot of candy inthe house. But if we asked her
mom, can you make your bananacake? Can you make your
chocolate chip cookies? Can youmake your brownies, your lemon
squares, she would gladly do it,even though there were some
(40:56):
things that we didn't reallyhave in our home. She didn't
make sweets forbidden for us,and I think as a result, that
did us a lot of favors. Yeah, Ithink so. And I think if anyone
takes anything away, I thinkthey should really put this into
practice. I agree. Now one lastthing I want to ask you about.
You had mentioned not to callfoods good or bad, and I love
(41:18):
this point. I want to ask youabout this, because I find that
we do label foods as bad.
There's so much talk aboutingredients we should stay away
from. For example, seed oils areall the talk, and I have to
wonder, if we get a little bitin our body, is it really that
bad? But what are your thoughts?
I'd love for you to expand moreon that thought about good foods
and bad foods and why we shouldstay away from those labels. So
(41:40):
seed, seeds, in general, arevery good sources of vitamin E,
linoleic acid. They have omegasixes. And of course, we want to
have a higher ratio of omegathrees. And what we do want some
omega sixes. And in general,seeds have all these great
nutrients that we need, andthere is no proof that they
cause inflammation in our body.
Now, the what they could beattached to, or what product
(42:03):
they could be in, could besomething like carrots. And so
your daughter might be mistakinglike this seed oil, and that's
why I have inflammation. But itwas carrots all along. And so I
would be very careful inthinking this way. Every single
thing we eat is processed in oneway or another, and our bodies
again, heal, and if we cansupport it to the best of our
(42:26):
ability, then these noxiouschemicals that are in a lot of
things our body basically candetox, if we just give it what
it needs and let it be I thinkit's so fascinating that people
will put so much thought intoseed oils, but they'll drink
alcohol, no problem. And that'svery hard on the body, but the
liver mostly can handle it. Wehave a very powerful body, and I
(42:48):
agree with you, it's capable ofdoing a lot of healing. We can
handle a lot. We can handle alot. So I would say, like, don't
get so caught up in that, andmake sure you're having all the
other things you need on top ofwhatever else is around. But I
do like the idea of calling fooda banana. The example would be
like you're having chicken andpotatoes and broccoli and salad
(43:09):
and then for dessert,cheesecake. But if we changed it
to like a banana with somebanana and a side of banana with
a little banana, and then you'reprobably not going to want the
other banana after dinner. Whatends up happening is you really
question, what do I need in thismoment? What does my body need
and how much? And you don't missout on any of the stuff that you
really think is delicious, butyou really do pay attention to
(43:33):
what you're needing. It's sofunny because I hear what you're
saying absolutely but I'mthinking, Could I really think
of my dessert as a banana anddifferent from the salad that I
start off with. I'm going togive it a try. But how many
times do people eat dessert whenthey're not hungry? All the
time? And the problem is, isthat that's the problem. Where
does that get stored? How doesour body handle it? And again,
(43:54):
our body cannot tell thedifference, but it doesn't have
room. It will store it as fat. Iagree with that. I think what
you're saying absolutely iscorrect, that a gift that we can
give ourselves is if we canlearn to eat when we're hungry
and stop when we're not, andtrust that there's more, and
trust that there's more becausethere is more, there is more, a
lot more. Yeah. And so if we cangive up the shame of, you know,
(44:17):
I'm going to be bad tonight, orI'm going to eat this. You know,
treat these are not things thatwe should be saying or how we
should feel about ourselves.
There's a line that I've likedpeople will say, try to be 80%
good and 20% bad. And I don'treally think of things in terms
of percentages, but I think thatconcept of do your best to eat
(44:41):
well for yourself, give yourselfsome fiber, some nutritious
foods. And if you're eating someother foods that aren't as good
for you, so be it. But just trynot to lead with that. And I
would kind of even take itfurther, to love yourself so
much that you honor what yourbody needs. So for parents,
listening, if you could.
Leave them with one core messageabout how to raise their kids to
(45:03):
grow up, to be confident,intuitive eaters. What would it
be? I would say, fill your housewith a variety of foods. Don't
label them. Have your kids getreally involved in the kitchen.
Buy fun things to help them getreally into like cooking and
cleaning and all that stuff, andmake dinner time pleasant, but
don't make it about the food.
Don't ever make it about thefood. And Kim, I love that. That
message really resonates withme. So thank you for people that
(45:26):
are listening, that want to findyou. They're interested, they
want to schedule a visit withyou. Tell them the age of people
that you'll see. Will you seekids? Do you only see adults who
can schedule a visit with you?
And how can they find you? Yes,you guys can find me on all
socials at Kim Shapira method.
My website is Kim Shapiramethod. I post every day on like
all the socials to try and giveyou guys good information to
(45:50):
help with your relationship withfood. I see all ages across the
board for everything, but ifyour child is struggling, I
would rather see the parent toreally talk about how you talk
to your child about food andwhat eating is like in your
house, and giving a parent toolson how to make it a more
(46:11):
pleasant experience. Thank you.
All right, so you will see kidsand you'll do tele visits as
well. Yeah, I think my wholepractice is televisits At this
point, and your book can befound on Amazon and everywhere,
everywhere books are sold. Thisis what you're really hungry
for. Well, thank you so much fordoing what you do. I'm really
appreciative to know thatthere's a dietitian out there
like you. So thank you. Thankyou. Thank you for listening,
(46:32):
and I hope you enjoyed thisweek's episode of your child is
normal. Also, if you could takea moment and leave a five star
review wherever it is you listento podcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow.
Kim, welcome back to your child is normal. I'm your
host, Dr Jessica Hochman, andtoday we're talking about
something that so many familiesstruggle with, food. If you've
ever worried that your child isa picky eater, stressed out
about sugar or food labels, orwondered whether you're
accidentally setting your kidsup for a complicated
relationship with food later inlife, this episode is for you.
I'm joined today by dietitianand author Kim Shapira, whose
(00:22):
book, this is what you're reallyhungry for, focuses on helping
people create peace with food.
Kim has such a refreshingapproach. She's not into
restrictive diets. She doesn'tlabel food as good or bad, and
she encourages helping kids andparents learn to listen to their
bodies and trust their naturalcues. My hope is that this
conversation gives you practicalguidance and confidence and
helps you feel more grounded asyou raise intuitive eaters
(00:44):
without pressure power strugglesor stress at the table. And one
quick note before we getstarted, if you found this
podcast helpful, taking a momentto leave a five star review
would really mean so much.
Reviews help other parentsdiscover the show and also
support your child as normal asit continues to grow. Thank you
so much. Let's get started,Kim, it is so great to have you
(01:05):
here. Thank you so much forcoming on this podcast. I'm so
excited to be with you. Thanksfor having me. So I had the
pleasure of meeting Kim lastweek. We went out to dinner, and
I found out she was a dietitian,and I was expecting, in all
honesty, to see you order asalad, some kale, some water.
And I have to tell you, I was soexcited that what you wanted and
(01:26):
what you ordered was a pizza.
Yeah, and I thought this is adietitian that I like. That's so
funny, yes. And how good wasthat pizza? It was amazing. I
love pizza, but I think I'm soaverse to restrictive diets, and
I'm sure we feel similarly, butthere's so much chatter all the
(01:47):
time about different types ofdiets and what you should and
what you shouldn't eat, and Ijust find it so refreshing that
you're not that way. Yeah, I'mlike, the opposite of that, and
I try and open everybody's mindto be the opposite of that. I'm
just so curious, is thatsomething that you've
intuitively known as yourapproach, or did you come to
that over time? That's a reallygood question, because I think
(02:09):
there's multiple answers. Mymom, I think, had been
restricted growing up, and so wewere not, and I was fortunate
enough to live in a house wherewe had a walk in pantry. It was
like the best room in the house,and we had everything you can
imagine in that pantry andnothing at the same time. But
when my friends would come over,they had seen things that they
(02:32):
were never allowed to be around,and they were not interesting.
Whatever was in the pantrywasn't interesting to me,
because we always had it so likemy go to snack, when I came home
from school, was cutting a headof lettuce and making a salad,
but I had all the hostess andtimons Kudos, like all the
things that you can imagine,that's just not what I
gravitated towards, because Ialways had it. So I think that
(02:56):
was natural, and we didn'treally talk about food growing
up, or anything weight relatedor body related. But I was a
sick kid and I wanted to behealthy, and a doctor or mentor
of mine told me in high schoolthat food can make a person sick
or healthy, and that was it forme. I was like, I want to be
healthy. I want to help people,because I bet they want to be
(03:19):
healthy too. That's sointeresting that your mentors
words made that impression onyou. Yeah, yeah, yes, they
really did, but I was so sick.
So just out of curiosity, youdon't have to share. But how
were you sick as a kid? Yeah,and that's also a good question.
In 1986 I got a stomach ache,and then it turned into so much
more. I went to all sixpediatricians in my practice and
(03:42):
ended up at gynecologist officefour months later. I'm going to
speed through it. I was one ofeight people who had ever been
born with this congenital defectin 1986
so multiple surgeries later anda year like a whole year later,
you know, of all that. And thenI think just victim mentality
(04:07):
and depression and what justhappened to me
took a toll on me, you know, inhigh school, like Epstein, Barr,
like those kinds of things. So Iwas probably low vitamin D, to
be honest, and just not well,and I wanted to I wanted to be
well, I wanted to be healthy. Iwanted my body to be thriving.
So it must be true, and I wouldlove to hear what you have to
(04:30):
say about this. But did thatexperience as a kid and someone
telling you that nutrition couldbe a way to be healthier? Did
that impact your decision inyour career? It must have it did
in every way I knew that I wasgoing to like help people with
food, even though I didn't knowthe first thing about food and
didn't care about food. It wasinteresting because I never
(04:51):
struggled with an eatingdisorder or disordered eating.
But for sure, we all do. We all,for sure, have some disordered
ish if.
I wouldn't label it that, but Iwould call myself picky if I did
use labels. But I don't, youknow, I like what I like, and
I'm very opinionated on what Ilike. I had dinner the other
night with my friend. She wantedto go to sushi, and we went to
(05:13):
sushi, but she's like, What doyou want? I'm like, Oh,
actually, I don't eat raw fish,you know, but I love going to
sushi. I just don't want to eatwhat you're going to eat. That's
fair. I think a lot of peoplehave strong preferences, and I
think it's rare to meet someonewho really, truly enjoys
everything. So sounds likeyou're also being honest? Yeah,
I think I'm being honest, and Ialso am not afraid to be honest
that I don't want to eat certainfoods. And it's just, I think
(05:37):
it's okay. You know, the truthis, our taste buds change every
seven years. So of course, mytaste buds have changed too, and
now I like tomatoes. And, youknow, like when I was a kid, I
wouldn't eat tomatoes, and so,you know, speaking of like kids,
even, I would never label a kidpicky. And maybe that's
something we should definitelytalk about at some point,
because I feel like maybe atsome point I will want to eat
(05:59):
fish, raw fish. But right now Idon't, but I do want permission
to be able to change. Oh, I lovethat. I completely agree with
not labeling anybody anything,because once you put a label on
a kid, they're that picky eater,or they're the kid that doesn't
eat raw fish, then all of asudden that's the way they think
of themselves, and it leavesthem hesitant to open up if they
(06:21):
ever change their mind, which weall change our minds, right? I
mean, it's not uncommon tochange your mind, yeah. And I
want that. I want to be able tochange my mind too. Yeah, when I
think of dietitians, sometimes,maybe I make an incorrect
assumption. But I I wonder, havethey struggled in their life
with eating, and is that whythey chose to be a dietitian?
But your path sounds sointeresting just struggling with
(06:41):
health issues as a kid, whichI'm really sorry that you went
through all that I'm truly notlike I definitely wouldn't be
here without it. Yeah, I shouldtell you, though,
when we would drive to UCLA,which was every Wednesday, so I
would go from Calabasas toWestwood every Wednesday to see
my doctors, my mom would say tome, like, Google Shopping after
(07:03):
your doctor appointment. Soalthough I didn't struggle with
food, I struggled with shopping.
And it became like no matterwhat doctor appointment I went
to or what emotion I wasfeeling, there was going to be
some shopping involved. Earlyon, when I started my practice,
I put my clients on diets,because we were trained to use,
like any diet that you putsomebody on, it would be like,
(07:26):
not calories in, calories out,but I would use a diabetic
exchanges. So I would say, ifyou use this many starches and
this many proteins and this manyfruits and vegetables, we can
basically guarantee that youwon't be hungry, and also you
will lose weight, and alsoyou're going to fix all
metabolic dysregulation, meaningyou're going to improve your
blood sugars, your bloodpressure, your heart problems,
whatever it is. I did thisreally early on in my practice,
(07:47):
and one of my very first clientswho was older than me, probably
my age now, but she was atherapist, and I was not her
first stop. She had been to manypeople before me, and I put her
on a diet, and she lost 30pounds, and I really felt like I
was winning. And then she toldme, after she got off her blood
pressure medication, that shewas going to gain the weight
(08:08):
back. And I said, Why? Why wouldyou gain the weight back? You
just like, improved your health?
And she said, Well, the truthis, my husband wants to be
intimate with me all the time,and I was molested as a child,
and wow, got it in that moment,I really deeply understood that
this had nothing to do withfood, and the way that she's
(08:29):
eating, and the way that myclients are eating is very much
the same way that I'm shopping.
That's really interesting. Soyou're saying that she wanted to
lose the weight, and she wasmotivated to lose the weight,
but her weight was also hershield. It protected her from
being vulnerable. Yes, that'sreally interesting. Yes. And I
also your point about how yourmom took you shopping after
doctor's appointments. What I'mhearing is it was sort of like a
(08:51):
Pavlov's dog experience, whereshe wanted to tie a positive
experience to something negativeyou were going through, so it'd
make it more positive, so thatit made it not as bad. It made
it more palatable. I'd love tohear what you have to say about
this, but I have a lot ofparents where their kids come
here for unpleasantinteractions, for example,
getting their vaccinations. Andall the time they'll say to
(09:12):
their kids in front of me, afteryou get your shots, we're going
to go get ice cream, or I'llhear it in a lot of situations.
After if you potty trainyourself. I'll give you candy.
And I notice a lot of parentstie unpleasant Doctor
interactions or medicalexperiences with a treat or
dessert. The way I think aboutit is I don't want my kids to
put that much weight, to putthat much pleasure into dessert
(09:34):
or something that I know isunhealthy for them, because then
I worry forever. Are they goingto think, Okay, I'm having this
unpleasant situation. Well,afterwards, I'm going to treat
myself to dessert, which I don'tknow if that's the best habit to
really obsess with what you'resaying right now, I'm obsessed
with it, and it's exactly righton and like, you can use me as
like, an example, right? Therewas one day I was crying,
(09:58):
driving to use.
La, and my mom said, don't cry.
We'll go shopping. And she tookmy irrational mindset and she
gave me comfort and fun, and shedidn't help me get back to a
rational mindset. And the truthis, is that we do everything 47%
the way we did the day before.
(10:18):
We sleep, walk througheverything that we do, so we
have to be super intentional tomake some changes, and people
don't like to do hard work, andso it's just really easy, just
to repeat old behaviors. Butwhat our mind is doing the
second it becomes stressed,let's say, and stress can come
in the form of, I'm worriedabout getting a shot, I'm in
(10:39):
physical pain, or I'm full orI'm hungry, it can also be I'm
really worried about going toget the shot right. Those are
the types of stress that wehave, but our body can't tell
the difference, and our brainkind of flips its lid in under
10 seconds in response to anyone of those stresses. And then
we automatically try and think,How can I make this moment more
(11:00):
pleasurable, and then if it'sshopping or if it's ice cream,
after we've kind of sealed thedeal that the next time I feel
this way, I'm my mind is goingto tell me that's the best thing
I can do in this moment. We'dhave to be so aware. First of
all, I'm emotionally triggeredor stressed out, and second of
all, that's funny that my mindis giving me this idea, I don't
(11:23):
really want ice cream. It's likefive o'clock in the morning, you
know, like, why am I thinkingabout it? So we have to be so
aware and rational. I thinkwhat's so hard as a parent is
that I really want to teach mykids good, healthy eating
habits. You know, they're onlywith me for so many years, and
this is something that I caninstill in them so that when
they grow up, hopefully theywon't have quote, unquote,
(11:43):
eating issues. Yeah, but what Ifind tricky is you don't want to
put that much weight onunhealthy foods like your mom
did, right? You want to makesure sugar doesn't feel
forbidden, that treats don'tfeel forbidden, so that it's not
as appealing because it's thereand available. But at the same
time, you want to teach themhealthy eating habits, yeah?
(12:03):
Because the truth is, I don'twant my kids to eat hostess,
right? Don't want them to eattoo much junk. And so I think
that's where it's hard asparents, you want to raise them
to be healthy eaters, but youalso don't want them to obsess
about it, yeah, and I geteverything you're saying, and at
some point we have to trustthem, right? We have to also
recognize this is their journey,and I'm only their guide. And
(12:26):
you know, modeling a behavior isway better than restricting
something. So when you thinkabout, like, what you said about
if you're going to have a shot,then you're going to go for ice
cream, we want a child to say,Okay, what you're doing is
you're getting the shot, andthis, it could hurt, it probably
won't. But also, I'm curious howyou feel when you have it, and
(12:46):
it's probably doing somethingfor your body that you need, and
afterward, you probably won'tremember anything about it. But
I'm curious how you feel aboutit, like actually talk to them
about it, but don't try andreward them, because that child
will grow up to be an adult. Youdon't want to sugarcoat it. Pun
intended, yeah, right. And like,at the same time, like, I really
(13:09):
prefer and also coach people notto eat while they're distracted
or in front of the TV. And a lotof parents will say, but this is
what we do on Friday night. Youknow, we sit in front of the TV
or whatnot, and that's okayoccasionally, but the reality is
these kids will grow up with thehabit of having a snack or
eating in front of the TVbecause they trained and
rehearsed that practice over andover and over. I completely
(13:32):
agree with that, and parentsoften tell me, with their
younger children in particular,that they're really stressed out
because their toddler doesn'teat very much doesn't eat
dinner, which is so typical fortoddlers, they're notoriously
not big eaters, especially whenyou prepare them a dinner. Yeah,
and they will, quote, unquote,trick them to eat more by
distracting them, by puttingthem in front of a screen. And I
(13:53):
really discourage parents fromdoing that, because, okay, you
may see them eat more, but thenyou're teaching them the habit
that you eat while you're bored.
You eat while you're distracted,as opposed to really being
present, savoring the food,enjoying the taste, enjoying
your company. I think it's areally bad habit, so I encourage
parents to stay away from thatat the outset. Yeah, I mean, I
stopped putting people on dietsprobably 28 years ago, to be
(14:15):
honest with you at this point.
And I teach them what hunger is,and I teach them what satiety
feels like, and I teach themwhat inflammatory issues feel
like in your body. And I remindthem to trust themselves and to
come back to connecting to whattheir body is telling them. And
a lot of people, I mean, I havethis fun book club that I do a
(14:37):
couple times a year, and we justsat and kind of read 50 pages
together, and it was a group of,like, probably 45 women, and
they fear hunger, and it's like,nobody wakes up in the morning
and thinks I'm going to have topee six times today. I really am
worried about that, and wherethose toilets were going to be.
Everybody wakes up and truststhat they will find a toilet
(14:58):
when they need one. And.
Sometimes it could get a littleuncomfortable, but it's not the
end of the world. But withhunger and with eating, there's
so much stress that goes intoit. I am also not somebody who
labels food good bad health orunhealthy at all. I call all
food banana, and I say, eat thebanana when you're hungry.
There's so much that you saidthat I'm just thinking about in
(15:19):
my own personal life, how I grewup. You know, I'm thinking, My
mom has a fear of being hungry.
It's a real fear. She cannot goto sleep where she thinks she's
going to be hungry. So shealways, always, always has a
snack before bed, because sheworries that she's going to wake
up hungry. And so what you'resaying, it's interesting,
because we live in this land ofplenty, it's not like food is
hard to find. It's everywhere,everywhere. But it's true that
(15:42):
it's a real fear that peoplehave. Yeah, I would love to talk
about your book. So that bringsme to the title of your book,
which I love so much. It'scalled this is what you're
really hungry for. So can youtell us what inspired the title?
I think you've shared somenuggets that may have led you to
this title, but I'm curious, howdid you pick this title? It's a
good question. You're good atthe questions. I had a client
(16:03):
today who came to me and shesaid, I want to lose 15 pounds.
And I said, so the goal of thiscall is to lose weight? And she
said, Yes. And I said, Do youmind if I I remove that goal?
And she goes, No, no. That's whyI'm calling you. I said, Can I
shift that goal into I want tolearn the practice of learning
how to keep the weight off. Mostpeople think like, oh, I just
(16:26):
want to lose weight. And thenthey don't worry about the day
after, and then they don'treally have a practice built in.
So I decided I was going to flipit and give them a practice that
was going to give them the sideeffect of the results they
wanted. And what it comes downto is, it's really funny, all
the answers I get when I askpeople, What are you hungry for?
Donuts, pizza, you know, I'mlike, no, no, what are you
(16:49):
really hungry for? And it's Ilike to open people's minds to
this idea of like, we don'treally want to worry about our
weight or food or our health. Wejust want it to be natural in a
given and so that's kind of likewhere it came from. The answer
is, we want peace that is sotrue. You just want to take it
off the table. There's so muchmental anguish and energy that
(17:11):
can go into thinking about yourweight, your kids, weight,
weight, in general, and it'sexhausting. And it would be so
nice to find peace from that forso many families, I think they
can relate to that statement.
Yeah, I hope so. So the goal isto figure out how to find peace
from what you're eating. Yeah,also, like, I think parents
(17:33):
should refrain from labelingfood too. I mean, I think it's
going to be a hot button foryou, so I want to kind of like
push that button a littlebecause I'm curious what you
think. Like not everybody is thesame, even though we're all the
same, sort of speak right? Weall have 37 trillion cells, and
our body's functioningrelatively the same, but some of
us have had antibiotics or highstress levels, or some of us
(17:58):
don't move as much, some of usdon't sleep well, and we have
different levels ofinflammation, and so not all
foods are the same, or our bodyreacts to food. I mean, you got
people with allergies andsensitivities, and so what's the
point of labeling a food likeShouldn't we make it a personal
experience? Absolutely, Icouldn't agree with that more. I
(18:22):
have to say, I when I find ayoung child who uses the word
macros or who talks about theirprotein consumption, it's not my
favorite, to be honest, becauseI feel like they're so young and
they should be kids, and theyshould just be eating for the
joy of it, and they shouldn't bethinking like so many adults,
think they're too young to worryabout protein and processed
foods and red dye, 40 and sugar.
And I do understand that someeducation is really helpful for
(18:45):
kids. I do try to educate mykids to a point I'll ask them,
for example, is this a foodthat's grown from the earth? You
know, if you can visualize wherethe food comes from, where it's
grown, how it's made, those aregood choices. But I try really
hard not to get into the nittygritty, because I just don't
think it becomes mentallyhealthy. Nutrition education is
very, very tricky, becausethere's a lot of shame involved,
(19:07):
and I think you're smart indoing it that way. Like I said,
we're all very similar, and wedo need the same things, which
is a variety of fruits andvegetables, whole grains, fiber,
omega threes, fermented food,probiotics. But our bodies are
capable of healing in so manyways. And so you know, a client
of mine, her daughter, was inand out of drug rehab, and
(19:31):
finally, this one time, she hadjust come from breaking her her
leg, and then it healed. Andturned to her mom, and she said,
you know why this one's going tobe different? Because I didn't
know I could heal. And I thinkit's deeply profound to really
love and respect our body somuch that we offer all that we
can to support it, but we do notget caught up in the small
(19:55):
stuff, like I talk about sixrules all the time.
I use the word rules on purposebecause it's kind of like in
kindergarten, you have rules,and these have to become a
practice, and they have tobecome the essence so you grow
up and to be this person whoalready has this built in
practice, right? And one of therules is to eat when you're
hungry. And so then I'll say tothem, okay, but now, where does
(20:18):
cake fit in? And it's confusing.
And I would say cake is normal.
It's very normal to have cake.
It's also very normal to notalways have cake, but if you
have to have cake every singleday, we have a problem. But it
doesn't always have to be whenyou're hungry. And so like when
my kids came home from schoolevery day, and my kids now are
2119and 16, there would be a plate
(20:41):
of cut fruit and cut vegetableson the counter, like ready for
their snack. But they would alsogo into the snack drawer and get
anything they wanted. So maybe Imade muffins that day, or there
was, like, 100 calorie packs,who knows. But it was always a
combination of things as it'salways been. And it was never,
know you can't have it, but itwas more. How does that make you
(21:01):
feel? You're complaining of astomach ache. I wonder if it's
that. What if you tried nothaving it and see how you felt?
So you lead with the healthyfood. You make sure you offer
the healthy food. Yeah, I don'tcall it healthy, but yeah. Okay,
okay, yeah. I mean, blueberriesgive me diarrhea if you really
want to know. And they're superfood. So not all foods treat
everyone the same, yeah, to yourpoint, everybody has different
(21:24):
sensitivities. My daughter, forexample, she can't have carrots.
They make her stomach hurt,yeah? And for most people, I
would say it feels like a verynutritious food. Yeah, it has a
lot of nutrition, yeah. So Iwould say, you offer it, the
kids will eat it, but I wouldn'tlabel it. Basically, you're
taking the power away from it.
(21:44):
You're putting it out there. Ifthey're hungry, you'll trust
they'll have a bite. They'llhelp themselves, without putting
any stress or shame on whatthey're eating. Yeah. So I love
how you talk about trusting yourbody, teaching a kid to trust
their body, and I agree withthis in principle. I think as an
adult, I can tell when a food,you know, I don't want to say
the word unhealthy. I have tobreak this habit, but a less
(22:06):
good choice for my body makes mefeel not great if I have a lot
of cake, for example, or toomany of my mom's homemade
cookies. But I find with mykids, that doesn't happen very
often, their bar until they'renot going to feel good is pretty
high. And so how do you impartthat wisdom to a child who can
have three in and out burgersand still feel great, and
(22:29):
explain that that's not the bestchoice for a growing body. Is it
three hamburgers in a row, orthree in a day? Three in an
hour?
My son, who was in seventhgrade, he could definitely put
away a few hamburgers if I lethim. Yeah, that's funny. Okay,
and how was he before thehamburgers? Now we're just going
(22:49):
to pick on your son. I feel bad.
Don't feel bad. He's actually agood eater, so I'm a little bit
exaggerating, but I would say hewas hungry for dinner. Yeah.
Okay, so I try and remind peopleto smell their food, not so
literally, but also literally,right? Because we need to use
our mouth for what it was madefor, which is breaking down
food. It's our first form ofdigestion. So sometimes just
(23:12):
smelling food or thinking aboutlemons or pickles creates
salivary amylase, which we need.
And then, you know, all of ourteeth, we're supposed to chew
our food between 15 and 44 timesper bite. And so, like steak, 44
bites. Maybe a banana would belike three or four, right? But
somewhere in there is the truthof what you need to be doing.
(23:34):
And this is not a popularopinion, but this is the truth
food is very, very boring if weeat it correctly. So what
happens is your son would nowsmell the hamburger just like
basically he knows that he'sready for food. If we don't get
saliva, it actually means thatour body is telling us we're not
ready for food. We could be in aheightened, anxious state, and
(23:55):
we need to kind of take somemore deep breaths until we
actually feel the saliva. Andthen I would recommend taking a
bite of the hamburger, puttingthe hamburger down, and now we
gotta chew the food. Superboring. Nobody likes to chew it
because we like to chew, chew,chew, swallow instead of chew,
like 10 or 15 or 20 times we aresupposed to swallow liquid,
boluses, right? If we're not,then we're actually making our
(24:19):
stomach do more work than it'sintended to, and it can't do the
work. Our stomach is very, veryacidic, and it's meant to break
down proteins, fats, viruses,funguses, all that. But if we
don't properly break it down inour mouth, we actually then
create inflammatory responses.
And so with your son, who's inseventh grade, my guess is he's
getting very hungry, and he'seating very quickly, and he's
(24:40):
missing out on really importantthings. And so instead of
focusing on this is bad or thisis junk, what I would say is I
wonder what would happen if youslowed down. I think that's
great advice, because I'm justthinking about in today's fast
paced world where parents arealways on the go, taking their
kids to soccer practice, back toschool, back from this activity.
You to the next activity. Ithink a lot of us eat on the go.
(25:03):
We're always in a rush, and asI'm hearing you talk, I'm
thinking about how I'm somethingthat I really want to work on is
finding the time to really sitdown with my kids and have meals
where we take our time, wherewe're not in a rush. Because I
think that would hit on a lot ofwhat you're saying. It would
give us time to smell food, tochew slowly, to really enjoy a
nice quality meal together, allof that, and also it's what your
(25:27):
body actually needs. So likehunger is based on your ghrelin
hormone, right? It sends asignal to your brain, it's time
to eat. And then satiety, orfullness, is based on leptin,
the hormone that tells yourbrain, okay, we're satisfied.
And that happens from the 15minutes mark, from the moment
you start eating. And so I oncehad a client who, every time she
(25:49):
would go into advisory, theteacher would bring donut holes.
And she was a kind of person whowould eat like, three donut
holes very quickly. And when Ithought of myself eating donut
holes, I thought, I think Iwould take bites of a donut
hole. I wouldn't pop it in mymouth, so I probably would take
two or three bites of a donuthole, which means I'm eating one
donut hole at the same timeshe's eating three donut holes.
(26:11):
And so when I'm thinking of theexample of your son eating three
hamburgers, it's because he's sohungry and he's doing it so
fast. Or else he doesn't reallyever get access to those
hamburgers, and he doesn't knowwhen he's going to get it again,
and so we tend to overeat or eatfast when something is not
available. So I think this is areally helpful tip, because I
(26:35):
talk to a lot of parents thatare very stressed, honestly,
very, very stressed, becausethey notice their kids have not
so healthy habits, that theyfill up on really processed
foods, that they look for thechips and the cookies and more
junk food. And we talk about howto help the kids avoid those
foods and how to substitute forother foods, but what I'm
learning from you is that maybeit's not about stopping them
(26:57):
consuming those foods. It'sabout teaching them to
appreciate them, to slow down,to chew them. Maybe that's
something that I need to stresswith families. Yeah, I really
wish you would. I think youwould see, first of all, a lot
of peace, a lot of fear, first,especially if they think their
kid's going to eat the whole bagof chips because they haven't
been given the chips, andsuddenly they're bringing chips
(27:18):
into the house. But what I woulddo with chips is they would be
part of a meal, right? So theywould be next to the fruits and
vegetables. I remember whenNatasha, she was 16, when she
was really, really little, shewanted ice cream once for
dinner. She didn't say how muchshe wanted, and so I got, like,
the tiniest little cup, and Iput it right next to the dinner,
(27:39):
and she just ate it with herfood. We didn't call it special.
We didn't call it a treat. Wedidn't call it anything, right?
I mean, there were so manythings that I did when my kids
were growing up, like we mademenus, very loose menus, but
each kid got one night, andevery single night, like Olivia
would pick, let's say chickenand potatoes, but every single
night there were fruits andvegetables cut, and then there
(28:01):
was also a salad or steamedvegetable or roasted vegetable
on top of the cut fruits andvegetables, because maybe
Natasha didn't eat the chicken,or she didn't like the potato,
but I knew that she would eatfruits and vegetables, and my
job was done, right? And thenevery single night, a kid got a
night, and we just always, nomatter what, had so many fruits
(28:22):
and vegetables, like, so many,like, there was five of us
growing up, so that's like, youknow, three or four fruits a day
we had, like, what, 3040, piecesof fruit in the fridge available
to be cut. You sound like agreat mom. You're putting a lot
of love to your kids through howyou feed them. And that's really
beautiful. Thank you. So Iwanted to talk about some of the
(28:43):
rules in the six simple rulesthat you laid out in your book,
you mentioned the rule that youhave to eat when you're hungry.
So I'm just curious, how wouldyou talk to a kid about that?
Because I feel like the tonereally matters. Some parents, as
they see their kid havingdessert, I can picture my mind
them saying, Are you reallyhungry? Do you really want that
food? And that's sort of alreadyinstilling a little bit of
(29:03):
shame, I think, in the waythey're saying it. So how should
a parent check in on a kid andmake sure that they're eating
when they're hungry? Yeah, Ilearned a long time ago, when
Olivia was like a newborn in mymommy and me class, the teacher
said, when your child is walkingdown the sidewalk and they fall
and they start crying. Don'tever tell them, Don't cry. This
(29:27):
doesn't hurt, because you can'tactually see the pebbles that
are buried in their skin. And Ithink that it's really important
to trust your child. And so Iwould ask, what does hunger feel
like? Do you feel it in yourstomach? Do you feel it in your
chest? Is it in your hand? Yourhands? Is it in your head?
Because hunger should beisolated to your stomach. It's
not scary, it's notuncomfortable, but it does get
(29:50):
louder when you ignore it. Is ita little hungry? Let's talk
about what a little is, but therule is to you when you're
hungry and just start with half.
And so there's a fail.
Safe that no one's over eatingright because the other half is
just on hold right there. Andthis really came from me wanting
to buy something I couldn'tafford, so I put it on hold, I
walked away, and then Irealized, Oh, actually, I don't
(30:11):
want it. I do that with Amazonshopping. I put in my cart, and
I make myself sit on it for aday or two. Yeah, it's the same
thing. So if we just put itthere, and then we also feel
safe that it's right there, thenwe don't need to overeat it. So
I would be playful about this.
What does hunger feel like?
Because it's not scary. It'sinteresting. Because, as you
(30:32):
mentioned, a lot of people dofear hunger. And so I wonder how
much of it comes from ourchildhood, and how much of it
can we try to correct? Yeah, Ithink a lot of it, I remember
going every time I had to have ablood test in the morning and a
fasting one, I was petrified,like I was going to starve to
death. And then one time, mydoctor was running really late,
and I didn't starve to death,and I was, like, amazed. It's an
(30:54):
expression, right? Not thereality, yeah. So when you talk
about the satiety hormones andthe hunger hormones like ghrelin
and leptin. I'm so curious, dothose actually work against us,
like when people are feelinghungry? I've always read that
there's a natural set point inthe body that if you end up
losing some weight, the bodywill want to bring you back to
(31:15):
that original set point, 100%100%
Yeah. So, I mean, there's somuch we can talk about just
right, you know, like ournatural GLP, one, our natural
glucagon, like peptide hormone,that when that's in harmony, we
actually can feel hunger andsatiety. But what's really
amazing about this is that ourbody thrives in consistency. And
(31:37):
so if you eat, you know, let'ssay 2000 calories today. You
don't need to count caloriestomorrow, your body will drive
your appetite to get the sameamount of food, not in calories,
but in weight. Interesting,yeah, and so let's just say you
binged. Then you can bet thatyour body is going to drive you
(32:00):
to get the same amount of foodand weight the next day. And
what's really interesting isI've never kept track of my,
like, what I'm eating orwhatnot, but the ranch in Malibu
sent me, like, a couple days offood. So it was like three days.
Didn't look like a lot, but itwas like normal amount of food.
And so I just wanted to try andsee how I felt. So this is,
(32:21):
like, the first time I've everexperienced experimented with
something like this, and I atethe flat bread when it came or
whatever, and I was hungry andready for the meal when I ate
it. And I was satisfied everysingle day for those three days,
but the next week, I wasravenous, like I couldn't catch
up to getting satisfied. So it'svery interesting how our body
(32:45):
can communicate. So then thequestion is, then, how do we
really lose weight, or how do wereally make changes? Right?
Absolutely, and I'm thinkingthere was a time in my life
where I gained some weight. Fromthe end of high school through
the first couple years ofcollege, I was steadily gaining
10 pounds a year, and before Iknew it, I was about 40 pounds
overweight. And I rememberfeeling hungry. My mom would say
(33:08):
to me, you just had dinner andyou had dessert, and you're
still looking in therefrigerator for more food. And
I truly felt hunger in my body,and I remember that was a really
hard habit to break. I knew Iwas overeating, but I really
wanted and was craving food. Andwhat made a shift for me was my
junior year, I did a semesterabroad in Spain, and the way
they eat is very different.
There's not really foods tosnack on. It's a different food
(33:29):
culture than we have and I waswalking a lot to class, and the
weight slowly started to comeoff. It came off very naturally.
And then I started to have ahabit where I wasn't as hungry
anymore. I sort of got used tohaving less calories or less
food every day, and then it justsort of stayed with me. Does
that fit into your story? Noway. Yeah, it does. It does. But
it also fits in to the emotionalpiece. Because, like, I wish I
(33:51):
could have asked your youngerself, like, where did you
actually feel hunger? Probablystress. I mean, looking back, I
was pre med, and I would havesnacks while I would study,
because it was something that Icould look forward to. Yeah, so
have dried mangoes while Istudied. Were they nutritious?
It was an excess. So in thatway, it was not healthy. It was
not nutrition. This is one ofthe reasons why I'd be careful,
(34:14):
because, like, we rationalizewhat we consider healthy all the
time, and our body can't tellthe difference between
strawberries and ice cream whenwe're not hungry, so I would not
call something healthy,especially if it's you know,
causing you to maybe have someghrelin resistance, where you
really weren't able to recognizewhat true hunger was versus
(34:35):
emotional hunger. But what Iloved about your story was so
beautiful, because what youfound was yourself, right? You
walked, you ended up eating justas much as you needed. And Spain
wasn't about the food, it wasabout the culture, and it was
something exciting, and therewas some ease in your day. And
so like, yeah, we have tooverhaul our lives.
(35:00):
Types, sometimes we have to havereally good boundaries and say,
You know what, I'm going tospend an hour walking every day,
or I'm going to start takingworkout classes and build some
muscle in my body. And I can'ttell you how many times people
want to argue with me when I sayfood is not fun. And they say
no, but it is. And like, youknow, when I was at dinner with
you, my food was delicious, butit wasn't my fun. You were my
(35:23):
fun. You were my entertainment.
Yeah, actually, really agreewith that. Good company is the
entertainment, exactly. And sowhen we misplace it and think
it's about the food, most eatingdisorders or emotional eating,
it's never about the food, butwe do make it about the food.
But I have to say, I really canenjoy a good meal. I really do
love when food tastes good andit feels it should satisfy and
(35:43):
enjoyable, yes, but it shouldn'tbe our form of fun or
entertainment or our source ofcomfort, and it's also not the
enemy. The only thing I wouldsay to that is we have to do it
so often, right? You can't noteat, yeah, and we often eat
multiple times a day. So in mymind, I always think, because we
have to do it so often, why notmake it something enjoyable? So
(36:05):
I actually do try to think offood as an enjoyable experience.
I'm because 21 times in a weekminimum, hopefully. But Rule
number two is to eat what youlove. I'm not going to eat what
I don't love. I love deliciousfood. I love what I love. I see
what you're saying, but I do itwhen I'm hungry, and only as
much as I need trusting I'mgoing to eat it again, probably
(36:28):
in three hours. It's not ourentertainment, it's our
sustenance, and we shouldsustain ourselves with food that
we actually enjoy the taste of.
Studies prove that we taste thefirst and last bite of
everything we eat and nothing inthe middle. So I would challenge
everybody to eat, to be present.
Like your son probably notpresent, and he probably would
have wanted to be I've actuallytried to teach that rule to my
(36:50):
kids when we go for ice cream,I'll tell them, there's the law
of diminishing returns. Thefirst bite that you have is the
best, and every bite after thatis not going to be as enjoyable.
And they'll have 1015, bites,and they'll say, Mommy, we're
still enjoying our ice cream.
That's good, as they should.
Yes, as they should. That'sgood. Then they're doing it
right? They're full of presents,you know? Perfect. Okay, good,
(37:11):
good, yeah. And I think I wantthem to pay attention to when
they're not enjoying it anymore,to stop, because at that point
it becomes mindless. And yeah, Imean, we have six thoughts a
day, right? And sometimes thosethoughts are, this isn't enough
food, and sometimes the thoughtis, this is going to be too much
food. Either way, it's reallyhonoring what is my mind saying.
(37:34):
And also, like is that the truthis there truth behind what my
mind is saying. Because most ofthe time our mind is lying to
us. It's trying to help us getinto a more pleasurable moment.
That's true. We are creaturesthat seek pleasure, that is for
sure.
So I'm curious. You want to talkabout picky eating, and your
thoughts on picky eaters? Thatis a question that I do get all
(37:55):
the time from parents. There's alot of stress in the house
because parents feel like theirkids are so picky, and that's
something that they need toimprove and work on with their
kids. So what do you have to sayto that? What would you tell
parents that find stress overtheir kids being quote, unquote
picky? Yeah, don't label them aspicky. Let them show you who
they are and give thempermission to change. So I would
(38:17):
take them to every kind ofsupermarket, farmer's market,
any little farm that you can goand I would have your child get
their hands on the food, in thefood, cooking the food, taking
ownership of the food. Theydon't have to try it. A child
has to see a food 10 timesbefore they're even interested
in trying it. But give the childtotal ownership over the food,
(38:41):
like, what would you like tomake? You know, for dinner
tonight, what should we add tothe meal? Make them a
participant. Don't label themand don't make them feel bad
about food. It's true. When mykids are active participants,
they're much more likely to eatthe food. My oldest daughter has
gotten into baking, and she'sgotten into some light cooking,
and when she makes the foodherself, when she has some say
(39:02):
in it, I know for sure she'sgoing to eat that food. Yeah,
there was a study done many,many years ago. They took
kindergarteners, and they askedthe kindergarteners to stand
still for as long as they could.
And I think these five year oldscould stand still for like,
three minutes. And then theysaid to the kindergarteners,
okay, now pretend you'reguarding a princess, and these
young kids stood for 30 minutesin play. And so when we can get
(39:26):
them to use their imaginationand to be playful, they'll do
anything. That's a great tip. Ido think whenever you can add in
some playfulness, making thingsa little lighter, adding in
humor, maybe some stories, kidsrespond very well to that. Yeah.
Now, what about parents? So youmentioned that your mom had her
own stuff around eating, and shewas able to raise you in a way
(39:48):
where food wasn't restricted.
Yeah, I love that, and I'm justassuming. Do you think that's a
lesson that we parents shouldlearn from your mom and how she
i.
Actually think so. My mom didn'treally share a lot. She just
when she goes shopping, shewon't buy elastic pants, and she
also doesn't like label food, ornecessarily think that people
(40:11):
should be restricted, because Ithink she had been. And so it
wasn't a big topic growing up,which is interesting when I look
back and I'm so grateful, but itwas just just simple things that
she told us intuitively. Itsounds like she knew she wanted
to do it differently. Yeah,yeah. She modeled a great
behavior my mom's rule, which Iactually really appreciate. She
(40:35):
said she would bake for usanytime we asked, and she really
did, but she didn't want us tohave food that was made with any
kind of chemical. So as a kid,we didn't have Oreos and we
didn't have a lot of candy inthe house. But if we asked her
mom, can you make your bananacake? Can you make your
chocolate chip cookies? Can youmake your brownies, your lemon
squares, she would gladly do it,even though there were some
(40:56):
things that we didn't reallyhave in our home. She didn't
make sweets forbidden for us,and I think as a result, that
did us a lot of favors. Yeah, Ithink so. And I think if anyone
takes anything away, I thinkthey should really put this into
practice. I agree. Now one lastthing I want to ask you about.
You had mentioned not to callfoods good or bad, and I love
(41:18):
this point. I want to ask youabout this, because I find that
we do label foods as bad.
There's so much talk aboutingredients we should stay away
from. For example, seed oils areall the talk, and I have to
wonder, if we get a little bitin our body, is it really that
bad? But what are your thoughts?
I'd love for you to expand moreon that thought about good foods
and bad foods and why we shouldstay away from those labels. So
(41:40):
seed, seeds, in general, arevery good sources of vitamin E,
linoleic acid. They have omegasixes. And of course, we want to
have a higher ratio of omegathrees. And what we do want some
omega sixes. And in general,seeds have all these great
nutrients that we need, andthere is no proof that they
cause inflammation in our body.
Now, the what they could beattached to, or what product
(42:03):
they could be in, could besomething like carrots. And so
your daughter might be mistakinglike this seed oil, and that's
why I have inflammation. But itwas carrots all along. And so I
would be very careful inthinking this way. Every single
thing we eat is processed in oneway or another, and our bodies
again, heal, and if we cansupport it to the best of our
(42:26):
ability, then these noxiouschemicals that are in a lot of
things our body basically candetox, if we just give it what
it needs and let it be I thinkit's so fascinating that people
will put so much thought intoseed oils, but they'll drink
alcohol, no problem. And that'svery hard on the body, but the
liver mostly can handle it. Wehave a very powerful body, and I
(42:48):
agree with you, it's capable ofdoing a lot of healing. We can
handle a lot. We can handle alot. So I would say, like, don't
get so caught up in that, andmake sure you're having all the
other things you need on top ofwhatever else is around. But I
do like the idea of calling fooda banana. The example would be
like you're having chicken andpotatoes and broccoli and salad
(43:09):
and then for dessert,cheesecake. But if we changed it
to like a banana with somebanana and a side of banana with
a little banana, and then you'reprobably not going to want the
other banana after dinner. Whatends up happening is you really
question, what do I need in thismoment? What does my body need
and how much? And you don't missout on any of the stuff that you
really think is delicious, butyou really do pay attention to
(43:33):
what you're needing. It's sofunny because I hear what you're
saying absolutely but I'mthinking, Could I really think
of my dessert as a banana anddifferent from the salad that I
start off with. I'm going togive it a try. But how many
times do people eat dessert whenthey're not hungry? All the
time? And the problem is, isthat that's the problem. Where
does that get stored? How doesour body handle it? And again,
(43:54):
our body cannot tell thedifference, but it doesn't have
room. It will store it as fat. Iagree with that. I think what
you're saying absolutely iscorrect, that a gift that we can
give ourselves is if we canlearn to eat when we're hungry
and stop when we're not, andtrust that there's more, and
trust that there's more becausethere is more, there is more, a
lot more. Yeah. And so if we cangive up the shame of, you know,
(44:17):
I'm going to be bad tonight, orI'm going to eat this. You know,
treat these are not things thatwe should be saying or how we
should feel about ourselves.
There's a line that I've likedpeople will say, try to be 80%
good and 20% bad. And I don'treally think of things in terms
of percentages, but I think thatconcept of do your best to eat
(44:41):
well for yourself, give yourselfsome fiber, some nutritious
foods. And if you're eating someother foods that aren't as good
for you, so be it. But just trynot to lead with that. And I
would kind of even take itfurther, to love yourself so
much that you honor what yourbody needs. So for parents,
listening, if you could.
Leave them with one core messageabout how to raise their kids to
(45:03):
grow up, to be confident,intuitive eaters. What would it
be? I would say, fill your housewith a variety of foods. Don't
label them. Have your kids getreally involved in the kitchen.
Buy fun things to help them getreally into like cooking and
cleaning and all that stuff, andmake dinner time pleasant, but
don't make it about the food.
Don't ever make it about thefood. And Kim, I love that. That
message really resonates withme. So thank you for people that
(45:26):
are listening, that want to findyou. They're interested, they
want to schedule a visit withyou. Tell them the age of people
that you'll see. Will you seekids? Do you only see adults who
can schedule a visit with you?
And how can they find you? Yes,you guys can find me on all
socials at Kim Shapira method.
My website is Kim Shapiramethod. I post every day on like
all the socials to try and giveyou guys good information to
(45:50):
help with your relationship withfood. I see all ages across the
board for everything, but ifyour child is struggling, I
would rather see the parent toreally talk about how you talk
to your child about food andwhat eating is like in your
house, and giving a parent toolson how to make it a more
(46:11):
pleasant experience. Thank you.
All right, so you will see kidsand you'll do tele visits as
well. Yeah, I think my wholepractice is televisits At this
point, and your book can befound on Amazon and everywhere,
everywhere books are sold. Thisis what you're really hungry
for. Well, thank you so much fordoing what you do. I'm really
appreciative to know thatthere's a dietitian out there
like you. So thank you. Thankyou. Thank you for listening,
(46:32):
and I hope you enjoyed thisweek's episode of your child is
normal. Also, if you could takea moment and leave a five star
review wherever it is you listento podcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow.
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