May 4, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, I'm joined by Melani Ladygo to explore the RIE approach — a respectful, relationship-based way of communicating with children from infancy onward. Developed by Magda Gerber in the late 1970s, RIE (Resources for Infant Educarers) is built on the idea that even the youngest babies deserve to be treated as capable individuals, with mutual respect at the core.
Melani shares how RIE gives parents a practical framework for setting boundaries without being either too harsh or too permissive. We talk about what respectful caregiving actually looks like with infants and toddlers, how to respond to challenging behaviors like hitting, biting, and tantrums, and why staying calm and connected matters so much — even when emotions run high.
If you're looking for a parenting approach that blends empathy, clear boundaries, and authentic connection, this conversation will offer both inspiration and real-world tools you can start using right away.
👉 To learn more about RIE or find a certified RIE associate near you, visit RIE.org.
👉 To find Melani Ladygo check out her website
Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.
For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Hi everybody, and welcome back to your child is
(00:02):
normal. I'm Dr Jessica Hochman,your host, and today we're going
to talk about a parentingapproach that can actually
transform the way youcommunicate with your child,
starting from infancy. Yes, Isaid it infancy. I'm joined by
Melanie latigo, and we're goingto talk about the RAI approach.
The Rai approach is a philosophycreated by Magda Gerber in the
late 1970s and it's built on onesimple but powerful idea, treat
(00:24):
babies and young children withthe same respect we offer
adults. This approach givesparents a path that's neither
too harsh nor too permissive,and the idea is it'll help you
build a strong connection whilesetting healthy, respectful
boundaries. So if you're lookingfor a way to feel more confident
and connected in your parenting,I think you're going to love
this conversation and learningabout the rye philosophy. Now
(00:44):
let's jump in. Melanie latigo,welcome to your child is normal.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for inviting me, and Ilove, love, love, love your
title. Your child is normalbecause normal is a spectrum,
and we are all normal. We aresomewhere on that bell curve,
and so I love it.
Thank you so much for sayingthat it's actually the reason
(01:06):
why I picked the title, becauseso many parents come into my
office they're worried thatsomething's wrong with their
child, when really what they'reseeing is totally normal. And I
think when we understand ChildDevelopment a little bit better,
it helps us feel more confident.
And then the best part is, byfeeling more confident, we feel
more connected with ourchildren, and that's a big
reason why I've become sointerested in the Rye approach.
I think it gives parents a lotof helpful direction for how to
(01:28):
handle those totally normal buttricky toddler behaviors.
Yeah. I mean, that's what theapproach really is. It's a
framework. It can be seen asvery black and white, because,
you know, you read a book, oryou see someone do something,
and you think, okay, that'sright, I have to do that. But
really, Rye is very gray. It'sShades of Gray, and it's
(01:50):
figuring out, you know, when toget a little darker and when to
get a little bit lighter. Andthe wonderful thing about Rye is
that it's, it is really for allages. Magda Gerber in who's the
founder of the organization, inone of her classic videos, she
was talking to early educationprofessionals, and they said,
Well, what you're saying justmakes so much sense. I would do
(02:12):
that with, you know, a five yearold, or a four year old, or even
a two and a half year old,somebody who can talk. But what
ry does is it just takes qualityeducation and quality
relationships, and it starts atinfancy. And so we start with
babies on their backs, but, youknow, at any point, you know
what, what person doesn't wantto be respected, you know,
(02:34):
including an infant. And sothat's the special sauce is that
we start with with infancy.
So you use that word respect.
Can you tie into how respect ispart of the rye method? And what
is the rye method in general? Ifyou could sum it up for people
listening, how would youdescribe it? So,
so rye itself is actually thenonprofit. We're an
organization. We're 501, c3,been around for 50 years. So
(02:57):
what we but we call it rye, butit's really the educating
approach. And so the educatingapproach is about having parents
and professionals, people whoare interacting with young
children, zero to two,especially slowing them down and
helping them develop arespectful, reciprocal
relationship from the very, verybeginning. And you know what
(03:19):
that really looks like is takingassuming that the person that
you're interacting with has apoint of view and taking that
into consideration. And you dothat, you know, very, very
simply by looking what are theyinterested in? What are they
noticing? Let me slow downbefore I whisk you around, and
(03:40):
let me tell you what's going tohappen. Babies. Don't want to
feel manipulated or forced intodoing things. We want to build a
sense of trust. And so we talkabout respect. But when we talk
about respect, what we're reallytalking about is, how do you
develop a trusting relationship?
And you do that by not beingmanipulated, by being told
(04:01):
what's going to happen, by beinggiven real choices, there's
still limits and boundaries thatwe have to set in a reciprocal,
respectful relationship. And sorye teaches parents how to set
boundaries respectfully and inways that feel good for them and
ultimately feel good forchildren as well.
(04:23):
I like what you're describing,but when you talk about
respecting an infant, you know Ican, I can picture having a
respectful relationship with anadult with an older child. But
how would that? How would thatplay out? What would that look
like with an infant? SoI just started a brand new class
with very young babies that theycut, they come in, and we start
by putting them down on theirbacks. We sit on the floor with
(04:44):
them. We put them on a soft butfirm space, and you make eye
contact, and you say, Hi, I seeyou. And then maybe we notice
what they're noticing. And ifthey start to cry, we approach
with a sense of wonder. And calmto kind of encapsulate that,
boy, you seem to be upset aboutsomething. I'm wondering. Are
you hungry? Are youuncomfortable? Let me get a
(05:06):
little bit closer to you. Oh,you didn't want me to get close.
That seems to be too much foryou. You know? What can? You
know? Just paying really closeattention, and when we're
talking also about like thediaper changes and the poops and
everything like that, that'sactually a really great
opportunity for you to develop arespectful relationship, because
(05:26):
actually attachment is formedthrough caregiving. It is I see
a need and I'm going to meet it,or I'm going to respond in a way
that says, I see that there. Soyou're changing a diaper, you're
saying, Okay, I'm going to takeaway this uncomfortable, maybe a
little bit smelly, but I'm notgoing to do it as fast as
possible, because that doesn'tfeel good. I'm going to talk to
(05:48):
you slowly and help you liftyour legs. And here's the wipe
that's coming that helps babiesfeel relaxed, just like it helps
us feel relaxed. I'venoticed in my office, if I have
kids that seem a little extraanxious, I really try to explain
what I'm going to do next, and Ican tell that makes a difference
oftentimes. Yeah, you know, Ican say, next, I'm going to look
in your ears. You're going tofeel me touch you here. Next,
(06:10):
I'm going to look in your mouth.
I'm looking for this. If youreally explain what's happening
ahead of time, I I can see thatthat alleviates anxiety. So
that's so interesting to thinkabout doing it to an infant?
Yeah,absolutely. And the other, the
other kind of special thingabout that is it helps bring us
calm, right? So if you'rechanging a diaper and your baby
is crying and upset and you'rejust kind of wanting to rush
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through, I mean, think aboutwhat happens to your hands when
you're feeling anxious, and ifyou're picking them up with this
kind of energy, or versuspicking them up and touching
them with a gentle energy andtalking helps re regulate you as
well, and it helps bring youinto a calm space. I can
see that if parents keep a calmenergy, that that plays a huge
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role in this, because energy iscontagious, and so if you have a
calm energy. I can see how thatwould influence a baby for the
positive,absolutely, absolutely. And the
Talking is to tell them what'sgoing to happen. So eventually
they're going to be able to becooperative and a whole part, a
part of it, but it is absolutelya way to help you stay grounded
and help you not miss any stepseither, right, just come into it
(07:20):
together.
You know, as you're talking, I'mthinking about how when kids are
sick, if the parents come inwith a calm energy, it makes
such a difference, because kidslook to their parents for
guidance, as opposed to if aparent comes in frazzled, which
happens because parents getnervous when their kids are
sick. That also feeds off thekids energy, so I think that Rye
(07:43):
is a great influence.
Yeah, I mean, genuinely, thatwas my thought when I was going
down the path of learning moreabout this approach, was that if
it makes my life as a caregivereasier, I want to give this to
parents, you know, where we canbe authentic and we can be in
relationship. And clearly thisis something that resonates with
(08:04):
people, and they want to theywant to know it, they want to
feel it, and we want to shareit.
So what are some misconceptionsabout the rye method that you'd
love to clear up with myaudience?
So I was thinking about that.
I think there's, there's kind oftwo camps, like there's either
(08:25):
people think that fry is toostrict and too austere, like we
don't give them toys and we talkto them like they're adults, and
we let them cry. And thenthere's the too permissive side,
where it's like, oh, but youdon't make them share. So it's
like I said, Rye is not blackand white, it's gray. So, you
know, yes, I talk to childrenlike I would talk to you. I i
(08:51):
might sometimes use some babytalk, but generally, I'm gonna
say, hey, it's time for snack,or it's time for your diaper.
Why don't you come on over,we'll get your diaper change,
because that feels good, andbecause it helps with language
development. And we don't givethem the typical toys. We're not
a big fan of the subscriptions.
Instead, we emphasize havingwhat we call simple toys,
(09:13):
because simple toys make activebabies, and so we want to
provide them with real things. Iwant to give them metal. I want
to give them wood. I want togive them cloth. I want to give
them silicone. I want to givethem things that go in and out.
They spend so much more timewith open ended toys. And that
continues a number of years ago,my niece, who is now 13 and a
(09:36):
half, was visiting me when shewas three, and I was like, so
stressed, because I don't haveany toys for three year olds.
What am I going to do? I onlyhave my baby toys, and they were
all open ended. And you knowwhat? She played for hours with
them. And it was, it was just sorefreshing to see
(09:59):
this. Is so true in my ownexperience. Yeah, I remember
when my daughter was teething, Iwent on Amazon and I bought all
the popular teething toys. Ibought teething rings, whatever,
whatever I thought might helpher teething. I had it for her,
and it ended up that she justwanted to chew on my knuckles.
And I remember thinking, Boy, Iwasted so much money investing
on teething toys when I shouldhave just let her explore on her
(10:21):
own. So I love that point thatjust this, just just letting
parents know that you don't haveto spend a ton of money on toys
that you can let kids explore ontheir own. I think that sounds
great.
Oh my gosh. When I during COVID,I took my classes outdoors. We
did not need one single toy. Andthat's the big piece of these
classes, is allowing children tokind of work things out
(10:43):
together. And so that leads meto, like the other, one of those
other misconceptions, it's like,we don't make children share.
Absolutely, I'm not going tosay, especially to a child under
two, that you need to share. Allof the brain development tells
us you can expect sharing andplease and thank you, and I'm
sorry, from three and a half tofour, that is when you can
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really start to expect to seethat come on a regular basis. So
when I've got two children whoare struggling over a toy, I
don't want to jump in and solvethis and mitigate this, because
what I want for children is tofigure out how to work it out
together. That does not mean Idon't do anything and I turn
around. It's not Lord of theFlies. I keep children safe. And
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if someone snatches somethingout of someone's hands, and
first of all, if the firstperson doesn't care, then I
don't care. It's they've movedon. But if the person whose toy
gets snatched cares, then what Iwant to do is make the person
who took the object aware ofwhat's happening for the person
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that had been holding on to it.
Because when you think about it,it doesn't feel good to take
something from someone else. Itjust doesn't but you don't know
that until you've done it, andthen you've taken it, and then
you're sitting there with thatfeeling of, oh, I want children
to feel that, because that isthe feeling that is going to
(12:11):
motivate them to do somethingdifferent, to maybe bring it
back, to not snatch it in thefuture, like it's all just a
learningprocess. They can see in real
time, that they upset somebody,that they made somebody feel
bad. And I think that isvaluable information. There's a
similar example when kids playon the when they play out at
recess. There's a lot ofconversation about how we need
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to let kids work things out ontheir own. Because if somebody,
for example, puts sand on afriend and they cry, there's a
lot of value in that childseeing how they made somebody
cry. They can see in real timethat it made somebody feel bad.
And I think that's where thethat's hopefully where the
learning comes from.
Yeah, and when we jump in tooquickly to mitigate that, then
(12:53):
we are taking the attention fromwhat's happening to the other
person, and we're bringing it towhat's happening with the
parent, which we don't need todo, they will feel we're all
going to even a seasoned ryepeople will will clench when
something gets taken, because weare social creatures. We want to
be in society. We want to workthings out. So, you know,
(13:16):
someone will take a toy. We'llall go, whoa, whoa. Yeah, I
don't think she was done withthat? Hmm, yeah, you're holding
on to it and and not to forcethe answer, because, on the
other hand, the person who's hadthe object taken away. So then
they have a lesson here. Do Ihold on to it more next time?
Do, do I re regulate with help,or do I re regulate by myself?
(13:39):
Do? What are my strategies forgetting this back? Maybe it's
asking for help from a parent,but maybe it's like just
noticing that they put it down,and I think I'll get it later.
Or maybe I can go trade a toy.
It's it's giving children theopportunity to problem solve.
And this is what people need.
This is this is what we need tosurvive, to be, speak,
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comfortable with problemsolving, because life has a lot
of problems. SoI love getting into these real
world examples, because I thinkthis is where parents struggle,
where we all struggle. So I justwant to clarify this. So this
scenario where a child takesanother kid's toy, let's say the
kid who had the toy taken fromthem comes to a parent and they
and they're crying. They'reupset. My toy was taken How
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should a parent respond to thatmoment?
I'm so glad you brought that up,because the first thing you want
to do is you want to empathize,right? I saw you were holding on
to that. You had a plan forthat. Oh, and they came and they
took it, and now they have it,and that's really upsetting. So
we want to start with the REregulation, because there's no
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learning that's happening whenwe're triggered right when we're
in a fight, flight or freezestage. There's no learning
that's happening. So we're goingto comfort and we're going to
talk about it, and as they calmdown, we might say, I wonder
what we should do about thisnext. Just it. And that's kind
of where, like that othermisconception of rye comes in,
(15:06):
where, you know, we don't say wedon't rush through the fears and
the tears. We allow children tofeel those feelings, because
those are also part of life. Andagain, we're not just like, let
me know when you're done crying.
We're there, and we'reempathizing with them, and we're
helping them recover. A parentactually is in class with her
second child now, and she cameinto class just the other week,
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and she was talking about howher four and a half year old was
not loving having a babybrother, and he was saying
things to her, like, you don'tlove me as much. We never spend
time together. And he was justreally upset. And this has been
a pattern. And previously, shehad said, Well, I pick you up
after school, and of course, Ilove you as much as your
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brother. And like, she just kindof kept coming back with reason,
reason, reason. And this pastweek she said, that sounds
really hard. That's just thatdoesn't sound like it feels
good, and that was all heneeded, was just for someone to
see his experience. And that iswhat we teach parents, is come
and empathize and and get reregulated, and then figure it
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out what you're going to donext.
I think I can see that with achild, with any human being,
actually, it goes a long way ifyou can let somebody know that
you see why they'reuncomfortable, why they're
upset. So it makes sense that itwould feel good to a little
child, absolutely. Now, whatabout, okay, the kids that hit,
(16:38):
that bite, that physicallybother another child. What would
rye? What would the rye methodlook like in that situation?
Because it is hard to seeanother child inflict pain on
another kid. It's hard not tointervene as a parent. Yeah,
so, and I don't want that tohappen. I do want children to
feel comfortable coming closeand touching each other, but if
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I see a child hit or bite orpull hair, I'm going to stop it.
And the most important thingthat you can do with this, or
any limits that you're trying toset is I want you to say what
you want them to do. So ifsomeone's pulling hair, you say,
open your hand if they're goingif they're going to hit. You can
say, I'm not going to let youhit. You may say that you want
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this. You may reach for it. Youmay tell them, I will not let
you hit. So you're going to setthat limit. I'm going to put my
hand to keep you from hitting.
And if I'm noticing that a childis really struggling and is
doing a lot of hitting or a lotof biting. I want to see what's
what's bringing up thisbehavior. Is it because they are
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having trouble communicating? Isit because they're tired or
hungry or sick? Is it becausethe room is too stimulating? Is
it because their mom just walkedout and they're having a hard
time with that? And like, I wantto address whatever is the
underlying issue. If I'mnoticing that there's a
continual issue with a childthat is hurting another child,
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and then, you know, be close andhelp children figure out the pro
social way to express whateverit is they're needing. So it
sounds like you could start byacknowledging why they're
frustrated. Oh, I see thatyou're upset that your mommy
left for the day, but I cannotlet you hit. Need to open your
hand. Yeah, I will not let youhit. I'm gonna open your hand
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and and then I'm gonna see wherewe go from there. Do we? Do we
need to cuddle? Do we need toget comforted? Of course, there
could also just be like a momentof just frustration, or
especially with bitingexploration, even with hair
pulling, with babies andtoddlers, it's just sort of like
this. I mean, this feels good,you know, to wrap your fingers
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into something and really tug.
And so I might start by honoringthe impulse. So if I'm seeing a
child is doing a lot of pullingof hair, I have lots of doll
babies. I'm not going to let youpull people's hair, but you can
pull this doll baby's hair. Youcan go out and pull up the
grass, because that feels goodin your fingers. If you're
biting. I'm not going to let youbite, but you can bite this you
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can bite your shirt. You canbite this toy. You know, I'm
going to give you kind of anout, a pro social outlet for for
whatever that angst is. Now,what about the kid that was
afflicted? What about the kidthat did get the bite? How do
you respond to that child? Yeah,that hurt. Oh, my goodness. And
what I'm also doing is I'mmodeling what I would like the
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person who bit to do for theperson that's been bitten. Like
that looks like it really hurt.
I'm going to comfort you. Shouldwe get an ice pack? What happens
more often in my classes isthere's the parent of the child
that did the biting is theperson that's most stricken by
what happened, right? Becauseit's devastating to watch your
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child hurt someone else, and sothat's what I say to them. Is
model. You know, come in, checkon that other baby, and then,
and then also be checking inwith your baby, because
remembering you've in general,if, especially if it's an act of
quote, unquote, aggression, it'scoming from a place of
dysregulation for the person,from the person who's hitting or
biting or scratching, right? Andso we want to be empathetic with
(20:18):
them, too. I actually got bit ina classroom recently. I had two
siblings, and the older one,who's about three, was climbing
up the slide after his youngerbrother, and he was really
intent on going up and down andup and down and up and down. And
the one year old not so adept.
And so the three year old's ideais, well, I just chuck my
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brother off of the Picklertriangle, because he's in my
way. And so I put my hand there,and I said, I will not let you
push him. And I started to saythe next part, but he was
feeling thwarted, and he bit me.
And so I yelped because it hurt.
And then I moved him off theslide, picked him up and I moved
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him, and I said, it is not okayto bite me. I know you're angry.
And then he dissolved and gotcomforted by his mother, and
then we talked about it, we andwe told the story, as Tina Payne
Bryson, so eloquently says, toldthe story about what happened to
help him connect all the dots,and he did not go get me an ice
(21:20):
pack or anything, because that'sthe other thing I think parents
really need to know, is that notevery single interaction has to
be a learning. We don't have toit doesn't all have to work out
perfectly every time, it's okayfor we're all human. We make
mistakes, and they are newhumans, so they're going to make
more mistakes.
Now, what about for people thatlearned that time outs were a
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good disciplinary action, whatdoes rye say about time outs?
I am with you all the way.
They're acting out. They'recausing a disruption. They're
not regulated. I'm hearing yousay we're going to leave the
situation. We're going to go toa more peaceful place. Check,
check, check. Where I'm going todisagree with you is that you're
going to say, I'm going to leaveyou in your room until you
(22:04):
figure this out. Because whatthat says is, I don't want to be
with you when you have these bigemotions, so I'm going to wait
until you put that away byyourself. Absolutely removing a
child from an over stimulatingenvironment where they're not
able to control themselves, is100% what you should do, but to
be with them, and to be that, asJanet Lansbury says, that not
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not even kind of the ship thatsails with them, but like the
anchor at the bottom, I'm herefor me. I'm here for you, and
you can ride those waves, andthe anchor is going to stay
right here as you start to reregulate and calm down and get
into a better space. And I alsowant to give a lot of space,
because it's also verytriggering for a parent to have
(22:48):
a child that's that's acting outlike that. And so it may not
feel like you are able to bethat safe. Harper, so if there
is another person that you cantag out with, like if you feel
like you're going to beresponding in a way that's going
to escalate, as opposed to deescalate, yeah, if you can tag
out, or if you can come up withstrategies to help you come back
to center so that you can bethere, it's important. And also,
(23:11):
if, if you snap and you yell,not great. But you know what is
great, the repair that comesafter, yeah, we are having a
really hard time, I brought youup to your room to help you calm
down, but I got really angry andI yelled, and that was scary,
and I'm sorry. That is such apowerful message for children.
And I want somebody who canapologize, you know, and I want
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to be in a safe in arelationship where I can say I
messed up, and that is what isright. Ry is all about is
raising these humans that areconnected with themselves and
and noticing how how they impactother people.
When I was reading JanetLansbury book, no bad kids, I
(23:57):
realized how many quote,unquote, mistakes I made as a
parent, for example, with 15month olds, when they act out, I
would always distract them.
They're so easily distracted.
And then, according to thisbook, that's not how you want to
handle it. You want to actuallytalk them through it. You want
to give them that empathy andgive them the boundaries. And so
that was eye opening for me,well, and I always say
(24:18):
distraction is like a hammer inyour toolbox. You don't use it
for everything, right? You'renot going to use it to put in
your cabinets. You're going toneed a screwdriver for that, but
you need a hammer sometimes, andso it's okay to use it
sometimes, and especially ifyou're in a place where it's
like, okay, I need to get thisdone. And they're so they're
(24:39):
dysregulated and they're upset,and I know that if I just step
outside, we're both going to geta breather and we'll be able to
come back in and just, you caneven call it out. Let's step
outside and re regulatetogether. But yes, definitely we
are all humans, and we makemistakes. Here's
another one that I hear fromparents. Lot kids refuse to go
(25:01):
in the car seat. And my momlaughs about this, because when
I was a kid, car seats weren'tso complicated, and she feels
like they're just so they're sorestrictive for kids. So it
makes sense that they wouldreact in a way that they don't
want to be in them. Absolutely.
How would you respond to a kidwhen a parent's in a rush they
need to get them in the carseat? This is a safety issue. Is
there ever a time when you canuse those boundaries more
(25:23):
forcefully to get a kid to dowhat you want them to do?
So I always say,if you can take two steps back
and start to involve, involvethem in something, to get a
little cooperation in somethingelse, as you're approaching the
sticking point, you're going tohave a little bit better of a
time. Like we it's time to getin the car. Do you want to carry
(25:46):
this bag or this bag? Do youwant to race to the car? You
know, do something that's goingto, like, put you both in the
same on the same page before youeven get there. And then this is
the other thing. Like, we thinkwe need to rush, rush, rush
through everything, but rushingcan slow us down. So if you take
a big breath, get yourself calmand regulated, is it going to
(26:09):
take me two minutes to get themin the car seat or 30 seconds?
Is that 90 seconds going to beworth it? Can I just take an
extra breath, I'm gonna show youthe car seat. I know you hate
the car seat. Oh, my goodness,I'm gonna I'm holding you. I'm
getting the straps ready and andtalking them through it. It's
(26:29):
coming. Okay, here we go. I'mgonna put you in, and now I'm
gonna strap you in because,yeah, like Janet says, You are
the confident CEO, you have theinformation. It's just not safe
for you to ride around in theback of the car seat without
without a strap. And this iswhere, like, we had talked about
the difference betweenauthoritarian and permissive,
and rise kind of right down themiddle. Authoritarian would be
(26:51):
like, Get in the car. I I don'tcare how you're feeling, I'm
going to strap you in. Andpermissive is we're going to sit
in the car for half an houruntil you decide that you're
ready to get in. And so ry is Ihear you. You don't want to be
in. I am going to be pushingyour I know this doesn't feel
comfortable. I'm going to behelping you. I need to keep your
body safe. And you can be madabout me. You can be mad about
(27:14):
that with me. That's okay, yep,and I'm going to get in the
front seat. I will be righthere. You can keep telling me
how angry you are, and that'sokay.
What I really like about Rye isit has, it seems to strike the
balance of both, that there'sempathy. You treat the child
respectfully, but also theparent is in charge of providing
(27:36):
a boundary and making sure thatthe child is doing what the
parent thinks is best?
Yeah. I mean, when we talk abouta respectful relationship, there
are two people in arelationship, and so both people
need to feel good in thatrelationship. And so I don't
think most permissive parentsthat get too gentle tend to feel
(27:57):
uncomfortable in thatrelationship because it's
resentful to have your your lifedictated by a toddler and in the
authoritative way, I imagineboth people don't feel super
great, and so in the Ryeapproach, hopefully most of the
time, you're going to both befeeling okay. You know, one
person is going to feel moreokay for a little while, and
(28:19):
then the other person. But thewhole point is that we're
raising people that we want tobe with. I
like to remind myself too,because I do really believe this
is true, that kids wantboundaries. They may not think
they want boundaries, but theycrave them, and they're better
off for them. In Janetlansbury's book, she talks about
how, if you think about ifyou're driving a car on a
bridge, if there are no guardrails on that bridge, you're
(28:41):
going to drive across thatbridge a lot slower because
you're not sure where theboundaries are, but if there are
guardrails there, you're goingto drive across that bridge with
with more confidence. And seeingthat, thinking about that, that
makes a lot of sense to me, thatwe do want those guardrails in
place. Kids want to know thatthere's a limit to how much
dessert that they that they'resupposed to have. You know that?
They want to know that there's abedtime in place that feels
(29:03):
good. They want to know thatthere are limits to what they
are supposed to do.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we ifyou don't give them boundaries,
they will look for them. Theywill keep looking for them. And
yes, they will push up againstthem, yeah, but they are
supposed to push up againstthem. And you know. You can also
say the bedtime is this time,and they push up against it. And
(29:24):
you can always say, You knowwhat, you're right. Maybe it is
too early for bed today, like wecan you can always move your
boundaries in communication. Youdon't have to be rigid with
them,but they have to be there. The
respectful piece of ryeresonates with me so much,
because any relationship thriveswith mutual respect. So it makes
(29:44):
a lot of sense that that is thebasis of rye. Yeah,
and, and that is, you know, wewere raising a generation of
respectful people who are goingto look for that in their
friendships and in theirrelationships.
Now, what about with tantrumswhen kids are so. Dysregulated.
How would rye advise a parent torespond in that situation?
(30:05):
So when you're with a childwho's having a tantrum, I always
say like, you need to be kind oflike that soft pillow that's
there to absorb it, as opposedto the hard, metal cookie sheet
that is going to reverberateagainst it. There's when a child
is in a tantrum, they are, likeI said earlier, there's no
learning happening. There. Theyare literally, this is really
(30:27):
important for parents to know.
When you're in a tantrum, theyour ear bones, the little ear
bones that you hear with, theyget closer together. So it's
like literally harder to hearbecause you're in a protective
state, because you are so, so soupset, and so you kind of have
to just ride the wave until theyhave come back from it. And
there's actually a while ago,there was this really beautiful
(30:47):
video of a of a dad and a babywho was having a huge meltdown,
just completely falling apart,and like sometimes throwing
herself in his arms andsometimes throwing herself on
the floor, and he was justavailable until she was able to
finally just dissolve and finishcrying, and then they regrouped.
And so that's that's where youwant to be when a child is
(31:10):
having a tantrum. I think thisis such
an important reminder forparents that while they're
tantruming, there really isn't alot that we can do. They're
totally dysregulated. They'renot listening. So yelling at
them or getting mad at themisn't going to help the
situation. It's notgoing to help and it might make
it worse. So if possible, tojust ride the wave until it's
(31:30):
it's over, and then as they, youknow, kind of recover, then
again, go back and tell thestory. You were really upset
about that. I wonder if it'sbecause we hadn't had lunch yet,
or I'm wondering if you weretired, or there may not be an
answer, right? Children aregrowing, and so much is
happening in their brains, andall of that is happening through
(31:53):
hormones. So it could just be ahormonal imbalance at that
moment, it's just feeling likethe world is too much.
I have to tell you that myselfas a parent, I think, where I
struggled a lot, where I feellike I could have done a lot
better and can do better, iswhen my kids tantrum, I find it
really hard to stay calm. Ialmost find that I have to walk
(32:13):
away or take a breather, becauseit's hard. It's hard to watch
them get upset without lettingit upset me. And so I like that
rye reminds us that there'sreally nothing that we can do.
And also I like to remind myselfthat eventually the tantrum does
end, and when it ends, that'swhen we parents can act and try
to repair and try to have agrowing moment come from it.
(32:37):
Yes, absolutely, I think someoneis absolutely superhuman if they
can learn how to not let theirchild's tantrum affect them.
And honestly, do you really wantto hang out with someone who you
can't influence with yourfeelings? Like, wouldn't that
feel so uncomfortable, likeyou're falling apart and the
other person is just like, I'mhere for you, like that that
(32:59):
just doesn't feel human, notthat we, you know, want to go
all the way to like, betriggered and be frustrated, but
it's, it's, it's part of humannature, yes.
And I also think, going back towhat we were talking about,
human development and naturalchild development, I think if we
remind ourselves that this iswhat kids go through, their
frontal lobe is stilldeveloping, it's normal for kids
(33:21):
to fall apart, especially ifthey're tired or they're hungry
or who knows, as you pointed outbefore, but it's all normal, and
it's all part of the joys ofparenting. Yeah,
yeah. Magda says weunderestimate infants and we
overestimate toddlers, and Ithink we overestimate children
and teenagers too. You know, weforget that frontal lobe is
(33:42):
developing until well into the20s. It's all part of the normal
developmental process. I have toremind myself that, okay, so
now, just for parents listeningin the moment, sometimes it's
hard to remember what to do. Doyou have any go to scripts that
we can share with parents sothat they can sort of practice
those scripts, or think aboutthose scripts so that if they
are in a moment where theirchild's dysregulated, that that
(34:03):
they can go back to and useI get that asked that question a
lot, and what I say is, youknow, I can give you some of the
things that I would say, butit's important for you to try on
and see how it sounds coming outof your mouth and how you feel
and what's in your vernacular,because the other piece of Rye
(34:24):
is the authenticity. And so ifwe lean too heavily into the
scripts, then that's that'sreally not going to be that
helpful. So think about whatyour desire is. You know, when a
child is having a tantrum, like,Okay, I want them to recover,
and I want them to know that I'mhere. So how do I how do I
communicate that like the way IMelanie will communicate that
(34:46):
is, I will say, Gosh, I see you.
That's really upsetting. Yourmom just walked out the door and
you're crying, and that'sreally, really hard, but it's
important to. People come upwith, think about what your goal
is, and then just talk about itin the most simple terms.
(35:07):
I think about in my head, I sayempathy, followed by the
boundary. So you see the child,you try to see why they're
frustrated, and then as theparent, you let them know why
they can't do that, or what youexpect of them. Does that sound
right?
That sounds good? Yeah. Magdasaid, reflect respect. Respond.
So you see what's happening. Youtake their point of view into
(35:29):
consideration and yours, andthen you figure out what the
next thing is. Reflect respect,respond.
Now here's another one that Ihear a lot from parents that I
think would be helpful to getyour take on. Sometimes, when
parents provide a boundary orthey're strict, the child
responds by laughing. And thatfrustrates so many parents,
because it doesn't feel like thenatural response. What would you
(35:51):
say about that response? Yeah,well, and laughing is, it's a
response, you know? It can be afear response, or it can be
like, Oh my god, I did. Can'tbelieve I did that thing. Like,
have you ever like, Have youever like, done something that
you were so stunned that you didthat you kind of laughed at
yourself even though you werelike that? I can't believe I
just did that. And so that's,that's where it comes from. And
I try to tell parents, it's sohard because it's triggering,
(36:15):
but try not to respond to thelaughing like you could say, you
know, I've told you not to hityour sister, and they just
laugh. And you say, you justused to say, Yeah, I mean it.
You're not allowed to hit yoursister and like, just just not
even give a response toit, just not give it attention.
It's true, what we what we giveattention to, they'll do more of
so that makes sense, just to tryyour best to ignore it. Yeah.
(36:40):
And then again, like thatlaughing is probably coming
from, like, if they've hit theirsister, and now you, the parent
has come in and said, Don't dothis. They're laughing. It's
probably like, kind of a stressresponse. And so you're going to
continue to enforce theboundary, but then we're going
to talk about it later. Hey, Icame in and I said, don't hit
(37:02):
your sister. And that's thatprobably was kind of startling.
Let's tell the story about whathappened. And yeah, then, and
then you laughed. I think youwere surprised that I came in so
strongly. Ihave to say, I'm really enjoying
this conversation. I think forso many parents, we love our
children to the moon. We wantnothing more than to have a
beautiful relationship withthem, but when they act up,
which all kids do, I think itreally helps to have a guiding
(37:25):
principle on how to respond, andrye is really a helpful method.
So thank you for explaining itto everybody.
Rye is an approach that isdesigned to bring comfort and
joy to parents and to children,and that is what I hope people
will take away from it.
(37:46):
Now, for people that arelistening, they've loved what
they've heard so far about rye,they want to learn more. Can you
direct them to where they canlearn from you, or any resources
that you recommend?
Sure. So Rye is our website. R,I, E, dot, O, R, G, that is
where you will find all of ourassociates. Rye has been around
for almost 50 years. We haveover 80 associates all over the
(38:10):
world, not just here in SouthernCalifornia, but we have people
in Washington, in New York, inCanada, in Australia, New
Zealand, China. We are very wellspread out and and most of this
work is, of course, face to faceand personal, but you can always
find someone that you can hop onthe phone with, or you can have
an email exchange with ryeassociates are people who have
(38:33):
gone through the multi yeartraining to teach other people
about this work. So that's whatyou want to look for if you're
looking to take a class or takea course or get a little bit
more information. So R, i e, dotO, R, G and
Melanie, I have to tell you thatmy patients that go to you, they
say the best things about you.
They've loved your guidance. Sothank you so much for being here
and for sharing your thoughtsabout ry. It's been really
(38:55):
helpful.
Thank you so much for invitingme. This was a really fun
conversation, and I appreciateit.
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review,
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica, see
you next Monday. Bye.
Hi everybody, and welcome back to your child is
(00:02):
normal. I'm Dr Jessica Hochman,your host, and today we're going
to talk about a parentingapproach that can actually
transform the way youcommunicate with your child,
starting from infancy. Yes, Isaid it infancy. I'm joined by
Melanie latigo, and we're goingto talk about the RAI approach.
The Rai approach is a philosophycreated by Magda Gerber in the
late 1970s and it's built on onesimple but powerful idea, treat
(00:24):
babies and young children withthe same respect we offer
adults. This approach givesparents a path that's neither
too harsh nor too permissive,and the idea is it'll help you
build a strong connection whilesetting healthy, respectful
boundaries. So if you're lookingfor a way to feel more confident
and connected in your parenting,I think you're going to love
this conversation and learningabout the rye philosophy. Now
(00:44):
let's jump in. Melanie latigo,welcome to your child is normal.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for inviting me, and Ilove, love, love, love your
title. Your child is normalbecause normal is a spectrum,
and we are all normal. We aresomewhere on that bell curve,
and so I love it.
Thank you so much for sayingthat it's actually the reason
(01:06):
why I picked the title, becauseso many parents come into my
office they're worried thatsomething's wrong with their
child, when really what they'reseeing is totally normal. And I
think when we understand ChildDevelopment a little bit better,
it helps us feel more confident.
And then the best part is, byfeeling more confident, we feel
more connected with ourchildren, and that's a big
reason why I've become sointerested in the Rye approach.
I think it gives parents a lotof helpful direction for how to
(01:28):
handle those totally normal buttricky toddler behaviors.
Yeah. I mean, that's what theapproach really is. It's a
framework. It can be seen asvery black and white, because,
you know, you read a book, oryou see someone do something,
and you think, okay, that'sright, I have to do that. But
really, Rye is very gray. It'sShades of Gray, and it's
(01:50):
figuring out, you know, when toget a little darker and when to
get a little bit lighter. Andthe wonderful thing about Rye is
that it's, it is really for allages. Magda Gerber in who's the
founder of the organization, inone of her classic videos, she
was talking to early educationprofessionals, and they said,
Well, what you're saying justmakes so much sense. I would do
(02:12):
that with, you know, a five yearold, or a four year old, or even
a two and a half year old,somebody who can talk. But what
ry does is it just takes qualityeducation and quality
relationships, and it starts atinfancy. And so we start with
babies on their backs, but, youknow, at any point, you know
what, what person doesn't wantto be respected, you know,
(02:34):
including an infant. And sothat's the special sauce is that
we start with with infancy.
So you use that word respect.
Can you tie into how respect ispart of the rye method? And what
is the rye method in general? Ifyou could sum it up for people
listening, how would youdescribe it? So,
so rye itself is actually thenonprofit. We're an
organization. We're 501, c3,been around for 50 years. So
(02:57):
what we but we call it rye, butit's really the educating
approach. And so the educatingapproach is about having parents
and professionals, people whoare interacting with young
children, zero to two,especially slowing them down and
helping them develop arespectful, reciprocal
relationship from the very, verybeginning. And you know what
(03:19):
that really looks like is takingassuming that the person that
you're interacting with has apoint of view and taking that
into consideration. And you dothat, you know, very, very
simply by looking what are theyinterested in? What are they
noticing? Let me slow downbefore I whisk you around, and
(03:40):
let me tell you what's going tohappen. Babies. Don't want to
feel manipulated or forced intodoing things. We want to build a
sense of trust. And so we talkabout respect. But when we talk
about respect, what we're reallytalking about is, how do you
develop a trusting relationship?
And you do that by not beingmanipulated, by being told
(04:01):
what's going to happen, by beinggiven real choices, there's
still limits and boundaries thatwe have to set in a reciprocal,
respectful relationship. And sorye teaches parents how to set
boundaries respectfully and inways that feel good for them and
ultimately feel good forchildren as well.
(04:23):
I like what you're describing,but when you talk about
respecting an infant, you know Ican, I can picture having a
respectful relationship with anadult with an older child. But
how would that? How would thatplay out? What would that look
like with an infant? SoI just started a brand new class
with very young babies that theycut, they come in, and we start
by putting them down on theirbacks. We sit on the floor with
(04:44):
them. We put them on a soft butfirm space, and you make eye
contact, and you say, Hi, I seeyou. And then maybe we notice
what they're noticing. And ifthey start to cry, we approach
with a sense of wonder. And calmto kind of encapsulate that,
boy, you seem to be upset aboutsomething. I'm wondering. Are
you hungry? Are youuncomfortable? Let me get a
(05:06):
little bit closer to you. Oh,you didn't want me to get close.
That seems to be too much foryou. You know? What can? You
know? Just paying really closeattention, and when we're
talking also about like thediaper changes and the poops and
everything like that, that'sactually a really great
opportunity for you to develop arespectful relationship, because
(05:26):
actually attachment is formedthrough caregiving. It is I see
a need and I'm going to meet it,or I'm going to respond in a way
that says, I see that there. Soyou're changing a diaper, you're
saying, Okay, I'm going to takeaway this uncomfortable, maybe a
little bit smelly, but I'm notgoing to do it as fast as
possible, because that doesn'tfeel good. I'm going to talk to
(05:48):
you slowly and help you liftyour legs. And here's the wipe
that's coming that helps babiesfeel relaxed, just like it helps
us feel relaxed. I'venoticed in my office, if I have
kids that seem a little extraanxious, I really try to explain
what I'm going to do next, and Ican tell that makes a difference
oftentimes. Yeah, you know, Ican say, next, I'm going to look
in your ears. You're going tofeel me touch you here. Next,
(06:10):
I'm going to look in your mouth.
I'm looking for this. If youreally explain what's happening
ahead of time, I I can see thatthat alleviates anxiety. So
that's so interesting to thinkabout doing it to an infant?
Yeah,absolutely. And the other, the
other kind of special thingabout that is it helps bring us
calm, right? So if you'rechanging a diaper and your baby
is crying and upset and you'rejust kind of wanting to rush
(06:34):
through, I mean, think aboutwhat happens to your hands when
you're feeling anxious, and ifyou're picking them up with this
kind of energy, or versuspicking them up and touching
them with a gentle energy andtalking helps re regulate you as
well, and it helps bring youinto a calm space. I can
see that if parents keep a calmenergy, that that plays a huge
(06:56):
role in this, because energy iscontagious, and so if you have a
calm energy. I can see how thatwould influence a baby for the
positive,absolutely, absolutely. And the
Talking is to tell them what'sgoing to happen. So eventually
they're going to be able to becooperative and a whole part, a
part of it, but it is absolutelya way to help you stay grounded
and help you not miss any stepseither, right, just come into it
(07:20):
together.
You know, as you're talking, I'mthinking about how when kids are
sick, if the parents come inwith a calm energy, it makes
such a difference, because kidslook to their parents for
guidance, as opposed to if aparent comes in frazzled, which
happens because parents getnervous when their kids are
sick. That also feeds off thekids energy, so I think that Rye
(07:43):
is a great influence.
Yeah, I mean, genuinely, thatwas my thought when I was going
down the path of learning moreabout this approach, was that if
it makes my life as a caregivereasier, I want to give this to
parents, you know, where we canbe authentic and we can be in
relationship. And clearly thisis something that resonates with
(08:04):
people, and they want to theywant to know it, they want to
feel it, and we want to shareit.
So what are some misconceptionsabout the rye method that you'd
love to clear up with myaudience?
So I was thinking about that.
I think there's, there's kind oftwo camps, like there's either
(08:25):
people think that fry is toostrict and too austere, like we
don't give them toys and we talkto them like they're adults, and
we let them cry. And thenthere's the too permissive side,
where it's like, oh, but youdon't make them share. So it's
like I said, Rye is not blackand white, it's gray. So, you
know, yes, I talk to childrenlike I would talk to you. I i
(08:51):
might sometimes use some babytalk, but generally, I'm gonna
say, hey, it's time for snack,or it's time for your diaper.
Why don't you come on over,we'll get your diaper change,
because that feels good, andbecause it helps with language
development. And we don't givethem the typical toys. We're not
a big fan of the subscriptions.
Instead, we emphasize havingwhat we call simple toys,
(09:13):
because simple toys make activebabies, and so we want to
provide them with real things. Iwant to give them metal. I want
to give them wood. I want togive them cloth. I want to give
them silicone. I want to givethem things that go in and out.
They spend so much more timewith open ended toys. And that
continues a number of years ago,my niece, who is now 13 and a
(09:36):
half, was visiting me when shewas three, and I was like, so
stressed, because I don't haveany toys for three year olds.
What am I going to do? I onlyhave my baby toys, and they were
all open ended. And you knowwhat? She played for hours with
them. And it was, it was just sorefreshing to see
(09:59):
this. Is so true in my ownexperience. Yeah, I remember
when my daughter was teething, Iwent on Amazon and I bought all
the popular teething toys. Ibought teething rings, whatever,
whatever I thought might helpher teething. I had it for her,
and it ended up that she justwanted to chew on my knuckles.
And I remember thinking, Boy, Iwasted so much money investing
on teething toys when I shouldhave just let her explore on her
(10:21):
own. So I love that point thatjust this, just just letting
parents know that you don't haveto spend a ton of money on toys
that you can let kids explore ontheir own. I think that sounds
great.
Oh my gosh. When I during COVID,I took my classes outdoors. We
did not need one single toy. Andthat's the big piece of these
classes, is allowing children tokind of work things out
(10:43):
together. And so that leads meto, like the other, one of those
other misconceptions, it's like,we don't make children share.
Absolutely, I'm not going tosay, especially to a child under
two, that you need to share. Allof the brain development tells
us you can expect sharing andplease and thank you, and I'm
sorry, from three and a half tofour, that is when you can
(11:07):
really start to expect to seethat come on a regular basis. So
when I've got two children whoare struggling over a toy, I
don't want to jump in and solvethis and mitigate this, because
what I want for children is tofigure out how to work it out
together. That does not mean Idon't do anything and I turn
around. It's not Lord of theFlies. I keep children safe. And
(11:28):
if someone snatches somethingout of someone's hands, and
first of all, if the firstperson doesn't care, then I
don't care. It's they've movedon. But if the person whose toy
gets snatched cares, then what Iwant to do is make the person
who took the object aware ofwhat's happening for the person
(11:49):
that had been holding on to it.
Because when you think about it,it doesn't feel good to take
something from someone else. Itjust doesn't but you don't know
that until you've done it, andthen you've taken it, and then
you're sitting there with thatfeeling of, oh, I want children
to feel that, because that isthe feeling that is going to
(12:11):
motivate them to do somethingdifferent, to maybe bring it
back, to not snatch it in thefuture, like it's all just a
learningprocess. They can see in real
time, that they upset somebody,that they made somebody feel
bad. And I think that isvaluable information. There's a
similar example when kids playon the when they play out at
recess. There's a lot ofconversation about how we need
(12:32):
to let kids work things out ontheir own. Because if somebody,
for example, puts sand on afriend and they cry, there's a
lot of value in that childseeing how they made somebody
cry. They can see in real timethat it made somebody feel bad.
And I think that's where thethat's hopefully where the
learning comes from.
Yeah, and when we jump in tooquickly to mitigate that, then
(12:53):
we are taking the attention fromwhat's happening to the other
person, and we're bringing it towhat's happening with the
parent, which we don't need todo, they will feel we're all
going to even a seasoned ryepeople will will clench when
something gets taken, because weare social creatures. We want to
be in society. We want to workthings out. So, you know,
(13:16):
someone will take a toy. We'llall go, whoa, whoa. Yeah, I
don't think she was done withthat? Hmm, yeah, you're holding
on to it and and not to forcethe answer, because, on the
other hand, the person who's hadthe object taken away. So then
they have a lesson here. Do Ihold on to it more next time?
Do, do I re regulate with help,or do I re regulate by myself?
(13:39):
Do? What are my strategies forgetting this back? Maybe it's
asking for help from a parent,but maybe it's like just
noticing that they put it down,and I think I'll get it later.
Or maybe I can go trade a toy.
It's it's giving children theopportunity to problem solve.
And this is what people need.
This is this is what we need tosurvive, to be, speak,
(14:00):
comfortable with problemsolving, because life has a lot
of problems. SoI love getting into these real
world examples, because I thinkthis is where parents struggle,
where we all struggle. So I justwant to clarify this. So this
scenario where a child takesanother kid's toy, let's say the
kid who had the toy taken fromthem comes to a parent and they
and they're crying. They'reupset. My toy was taken How
(14:22):
should a parent respond to thatmoment?
I'm so glad you brought that up,because the first thing you want
to do is you want to empathize,right? I saw you were holding on
to that. You had a plan forthat. Oh, and they came and they
took it, and now they have it,and that's really upsetting. So
we want to start with the REregulation, because there's no
(14:45):
learning that's happening whenwe're triggered right when we're
in a fight, flight or freezestage. There's no learning
that's happening. So we're goingto comfort and we're going to
talk about it, and as they calmdown, we might say, I wonder
what we should do about thisnext. Just it. And that's kind
of where, like that othermisconception of rye comes in,
(15:06):
where, you know, we don't say wedon't rush through the fears and
the tears. We allow children tofeel those feelings, because
those are also part of life. Andagain, we're not just like, let
me know when you're done crying.
We're there, and we'reempathizing with them, and we're
helping them recover. A parentactually is in class with her
second child now, and she cameinto class just the other week,
(15:30):
and she was talking about howher four and a half year old was
not loving having a babybrother, and he was saying
things to her, like, you don'tlove me as much. We never spend
time together. And he was justreally upset. And this has been
a pattern. And previously, shehad said, Well, I pick you up
after school, and of course, Ilove you as much as your
(15:52):
brother. And like, she just kindof kept coming back with reason,
reason, reason. And this pastweek she said, that sounds
really hard. That's just thatdoesn't sound like it feels
good, and that was all heneeded, was just for someone to
see his experience. And that iswhat we teach parents, is come
and empathize and and get reregulated, and then figure it
(16:17):
out what you're going to donext.
I think I can see that with achild, with any human being,
actually, it goes a long way ifyou can let somebody know that
you see why they'reuncomfortable, why they're
upset. So it makes sense that itwould feel good to a little
child, absolutely. Now, whatabout, okay, the kids that hit,
(16:38):
that bite, that physicallybother another child. What would
rye? What would the rye methodlook like in that situation?
Because it is hard to seeanother child inflict pain on
another kid. It's hard not tointervene as a parent. Yeah,
so, and I don't want that tohappen. I do want children to
feel comfortable coming closeand touching each other, but if
(17:00):
I see a child hit or bite orpull hair, I'm going to stop it.
And the most important thingthat you can do with this, or
any limits that you're trying toset is I want you to say what
you want them to do. So ifsomeone's pulling hair, you say,
open your hand if they're goingif they're going to hit. You can
say, I'm not going to let youhit. You may say that you want
(17:23):
this. You may reach for it. Youmay tell them, I will not let
you hit. So you're going to setthat limit. I'm going to put my
hand to keep you from hitting.
And if I'm noticing that a childis really struggling and is
doing a lot of hitting or a lotof biting. I want to see what's
what's bringing up thisbehavior. Is it because they are
(17:44):
having trouble communicating? Isit because they're tired or
hungry or sick? Is it becausethe room is too stimulating? Is
it because their mom just walkedout and they're having a hard
time with that? And like, I wantto address whatever is the
underlying issue. If I'mnoticing that there's a
continual issue with a childthat is hurting another child,
(18:06):
and then, you know, be close andhelp children figure out the pro
social way to express whateverit is they're needing. So it
sounds like you could start byacknowledging why they're
frustrated. Oh, I see thatyou're upset that your mommy
left for the day, but I cannotlet you hit. Need to open your
hand. Yeah, I will not let youhit. I'm gonna open your hand
(18:29):
and and then I'm gonna see wherewe go from there. Do we? Do we
need to cuddle? Do we need toget comforted? Of course, there
could also just be like a momentof just frustration, or
especially with bitingexploration, even with hair
pulling, with babies andtoddlers, it's just sort of like
this. I mean, this feels good,you know, to wrap your fingers
(18:50):
into something and really tug.
And so I might start by honoringthe impulse. So if I'm seeing a
child is doing a lot of pullingof hair, I have lots of doll
babies. I'm not going to let youpull people's hair, but you can
pull this doll baby's hair. Youcan go out and pull up the
grass, because that feels goodin your fingers. If you're
biting. I'm not going to let youbite, but you can bite this you
(19:11):
can bite your shirt. You canbite this toy. You know, I'm
going to give you kind of anout, a pro social outlet for for
whatever that angst is. Now,what about the kid that was
afflicted? What about the kidthat did get the bite? How do
you respond to that child? Yeah,that hurt. Oh, my goodness. And
what I'm also doing is I'mmodeling what I would like the
(19:33):
person who bit to do for theperson that's been bitten. Like
that looks like it really hurt.
I'm going to comfort you. Shouldwe get an ice pack? What happens
more often in my classes isthere's the parent of the child
that did the biting is theperson that's most stricken by
what happened, right? Becauseit's devastating to watch your
(19:56):
child hurt someone else, and sothat's what I say to them. Is
model. You know, come in, checkon that other baby, and then,
and then also be checking inwith your baby, because
remembering you've in general,if, especially if it's an act of
quote, unquote, aggression, it'scoming from a place of
dysregulation for the person,from the person who's hitting or
biting or scratching, right? Andso we want to be empathetic with
(20:18):
them, too. I actually got bit ina classroom recently. I had two
siblings, and the older one,who's about three, was climbing
up the slide after his youngerbrother, and he was really
intent on going up and down andup and down and up and down. And
the one year old not so adept.
And so the three year old's ideais, well, I just chuck my
(20:38):
brother off of the Picklertriangle, because he's in my
way. And so I put my hand there,and I said, I will not let you
push him. And I started to saythe next part, but he was
feeling thwarted, and he bit me.
And so I yelped because it hurt.
And then I moved him off theslide, picked him up and I moved
(20:59):
him, and I said, it is not okayto bite me. I know you're angry.
And then he dissolved and gotcomforted by his mother, and
then we talked about it, we andwe told the story, as Tina Payne
Bryson, so eloquently says, toldthe story about what happened to
help him connect all the dots,and he did not go get me an ice
(21:20):
pack or anything, because that'sthe other thing I think parents
really need to know, is that notevery single interaction has to
be a learning. We don't have toit doesn't all have to work out
perfectly every time, it's okayfor we're all human. We make
mistakes, and they are newhumans, so they're going to make
more mistakes.
Now, what about for people thatlearned that time outs were a
(21:43):
good disciplinary action, whatdoes rye say about time outs?
I am with you all the way.
They're acting out. They'recausing a disruption. They're
not regulated. I'm hearing yousay we're going to leave the
situation. We're going to go toa more peaceful place. Check,
check, check. Where I'm going todisagree with you is that you're
going to say, I'm going to leaveyou in your room until you
(22:04):
figure this out. Because whatthat says is, I don't want to be
with you when you have these bigemotions, so I'm going to wait
until you put that away byyourself. Absolutely removing a
child from an over stimulatingenvironment where they're not
able to control themselves, is100% what you should do, but to
be with them, and to be that, asJanet Lansbury says, that not
(22:25):
not even kind of the ship thatsails with them, but like the
anchor at the bottom, I'm herefor me. I'm here for you, and
you can ride those waves, andthe anchor is going to stay
right here as you start to reregulate and calm down and get
into a better space. And I alsowant to give a lot of space,
because it's also verytriggering for a parent to have
(22:48):
a child that's that's acting outlike that. And so it may not
feel like you are able to bethat safe. Harper, so if there
is another person that you cantag out with, like if you feel
like you're going to beresponding in a way that's going
to escalate, as opposed to deescalate, yeah, if you can tag
out, or if you can come up withstrategies to help you come back
to center so that you can bethere, it's important. And also,
(23:11):
if, if you snap and you yell,not great. But you know what is
great, the repair that comesafter, yeah, we are having a
really hard time, I brought youup to your room to help you calm
down, but I got really angry andI yelled, and that was scary,
and I'm sorry. That is such apowerful message for children.
And I want somebody who canapologize, you know, and I want
(23:36):
to be in a safe in arelationship where I can say I
messed up, and that is what isright. Ry is all about is
raising these humans that areconnected with themselves and
and noticing how how they impactother people.
When I was reading JanetLansbury book, no bad kids, I
(23:57):
realized how many quote,unquote, mistakes I made as a
parent, for example, with 15month olds, when they act out, I
would always distract them.
They're so easily distracted.
And then, according to thisbook, that's not how you want to
handle it. You want to actuallytalk them through it. You want
to give them that empathy andgive them the boundaries. And so
that was eye opening for me,well, and I always say
(24:18):
distraction is like a hammer inyour toolbox. You don't use it
for everything, right? You'renot going to use it to put in
your cabinets. You're going toneed a screwdriver for that, but
you need a hammer sometimes, andso it's okay to use it
sometimes, and especially ifyou're in a place where it's
like, okay, I need to get thisdone. And they're so they're
(24:39):
dysregulated and they're upset,and I know that if I just step
outside, we're both going to geta breather and we'll be able to
come back in and just, you caneven call it out. Let's step
outside and re regulatetogether. But yes, definitely we
are all humans, and we makemistakes. Here's
another one that I hear fromparents. Lot kids refuse to go
(25:01):
in the car seat. And my momlaughs about this, because when
I was a kid, car seats weren'tso complicated, and she feels
like they're just so they're sorestrictive for kids. So it
makes sense that they wouldreact in a way that they don't
want to be in them. Absolutely.
How would you respond to a kidwhen a parent's in a rush they
need to get them in the carseat? This is a safety issue. Is
there ever a time when you canuse those boundaries more
(25:23):
forcefully to get a kid to dowhat you want them to do?
So I always say,if you can take two steps back
and start to involve, involvethem in something, to get a
little cooperation in somethingelse, as you're approaching the
sticking point, you're going tohave a little bit better of a
time. Like we it's time to getin the car. Do you want to carry
(25:46):
this bag or this bag? Do youwant to race to the car? You
know, do something that's goingto, like, put you both in the
same on the same page before youeven get there. And then this is
the other thing. Like, we thinkwe need to rush, rush, rush
through everything, but rushingcan slow us down. So if you take
a big breath, get yourself calmand regulated, is it going to
(26:09):
take me two minutes to get themin the car seat or 30 seconds?
Is that 90 seconds going to beworth it? Can I just take an
extra breath, I'm gonna show youthe car seat. I know you hate
the car seat. Oh, my goodness,I'm gonna I'm holding you. I'm
getting the straps ready and andtalking them through it. It's
(26:29):
coming. Okay, here we go. I'mgonna put you in, and now I'm
gonna strap you in because,yeah, like Janet says, You are
the confident CEO, you have theinformation. It's just not safe
for you to ride around in theback of the car seat without
without a strap. And this iswhere, like, we had talked about
the difference betweenauthoritarian and permissive,
and rise kind of right down themiddle. Authoritarian would be
(26:51):
like, Get in the car. I I don'tcare how you're feeling, I'm
going to strap you in. Andpermissive is we're going to sit
in the car for half an houruntil you decide that you're
ready to get in. And so ry is Ihear you. You don't want to be
in. I am going to be pushingyour I know this doesn't feel
comfortable. I'm going to behelping you. I need to keep your
body safe. And you can be madabout me. You can be mad about
(27:14):
that with me. That's okay, yep,and I'm going to get in the
front seat. I will be righthere. You can keep telling me
how angry you are, and that'sokay.
What I really like about Rye isit has, it seems to strike the
balance of both, that there'sempathy. You treat the child
respectfully, but also theparent is in charge of providing
(27:36):
a boundary and making sure thatthe child is doing what the
parent thinks is best?
Yeah. I mean, when we talk abouta respectful relationship, there
are two people in arelationship, and so both people
need to feel good in thatrelationship. And so I don't
think most permissive parentsthat get too gentle tend to feel
(27:57):
uncomfortable in thatrelationship because it's
resentful to have your your lifedictated by a toddler and in the
authoritative way, I imagineboth people don't feel super
great, and so in the Ryeapproach, hopefully most of the
time, you're going to both befeeling okay. You know, one
person is going to feel moreokay for a little while, and
(28:19):
then the other person. But thewhole point is that we're
raising people that we want tobe with. I
like to remind myself too,because I do really believe this
is true, that kids wantboundaries. They may not think
they want boundaries, but theycrave them, and they're better
off for them. In Janetlansbury's book, she talks about
how, if you think about ifyou're driving a car on a
bridge, if there are no guardrails on that bridge, you're
(28:41):
going to drive across thatbridge a lot slower because
you're not sure where theboundaries are, but if there are
guardrails there, you're goingto drive across that bridge with
with more confidence. And seeingthat, thinking about that, that
makes a lot of sense to me, thatwe do want those guardrails in
place. Kids want to know thatthere's a limit to how much
dessert that they that they'resupposed to have. You know that?
They want to know that there's abedtime in place that feels
(29:03):
good. They want to know thatthere are limits to what they
are supposed to do.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we ifyou don't give them boundaries,
they will look for them. Theywill keep looking for them. And
yes, they will push up againstthem, yeah, but they are
supposed to push up againstthem. And you know. You can also
say the bedtime is this time,and they push up against it. And
(29:24):
you can always say, You knowwhat, you're right. Maybe it is
too early for bed today, like wecan you can always move your
boundaries in communication. Youdon't have to be rigid with
them,but they have to be there. The
respectful piece of ryeresonates with me so much,
because any relationship thriveswith mutual respect. So it makes
(29:44):
a lot of sense that that is thebasis of rye. Yeah,
and, and that is, you know, wewere raising a generation of
respectful people who are goingto look for that in their
friendships and in theirrelationships.
Now, what about with tantrumswhen kids are so. Dysregulated.
How would rye advise a parent torespond in that situation?
(30:05):
So when you're with a childwho's having a tantrum, I always
say like, you need to be kind oflike that soft pillow that's
there to absorb it, as opposedto the hard, metal cookie sheet
that is going to reverberateagainst it. There's when a child
is in a tantrum, they are, likeI said earlier, there's no
learning happening. There. Theyare literally, this is really
(30:27):
important for parents to know.
When you're in a tantrum, theyour ear bones, the little ear
bones that you hear with, theyget closer together. So it's
like literally harder to hearbecause you're in a protective
state, because you are so, so soupset, and so you kind of have
to just ride the wave until theyhave come back from it. And
there's actually a while ago,there was this really beautiful
(30:47):
video of a of a dad and a babywho was having a huge meltdown,
just completely falling apart,and like sometimes throwing
herself in his arms andsometimes throwing herself on
the floor, and he was justavailable until she was able to
finally just dissolve and finishcrying, and then they regrouped.
And so that's that's where youwant to be when a child is
(31:10):
having a tantrum. I think thisis such
an important reminder forparents that while they're
tantruming, there really isn't alot that we can do. They're
totally dysregulated. They'renot listening. So yelling at
them or getting mad at themisn't going to help the
situation. It's notgoing to help and it might make
it worse. So if possible, tojust ride the wave until it's
(31:30):
it's over, and then as they, youknow, kind of recover, then
again, go back and tell thestory. You were really upset
about that. I wonder if it'sbecause we hadn't had lunch yet,
or I'm wondering if you weretired, or there may not be an
answer, right? Children aregrowing, and so much is
happening in their brains, andall of that is happening through
(31:53):
hormones. So it could just be ahormonal imbalance at that
moment, it's just feeling likethe world is too much.
I have to tell you that myselfas a parent, I think, where I
struggled a lot, where I feellike I could have done a lot
better and can do better, iswhen my kids tantrum, I find it
really hard to stay calm. Ialmost find that I have to walk
(32:13):
away or take a breather, becauseit's hard. It's hard to watch
them get upset without lettingit upset me. And so I like that
rye reminds us that there'sreally nothing that we can do.
And also I like to remind myselfthat eventually the tantrum does
end, and when it ends, that'swhen we parents can act and try
to repair and try to have agrowing moment come from it.
(32:37):
Yes, absolutely, I think someoneis absolutely superhuman if they
can learn how to not let theirchild's tantrum affect them.
And honestly, do you really wantto hang out with someone who you
can't influence with yourfeelings? Like, wouldn't that
feel so uncomfortable, likeyou're falling apart and the
other person is just like, I'mhere for you, like that that
(32:59):
just doesn't feel human, notthat we, you know, want to go
all the way to like, betriggered and be frustrated, but
it's, it's, it's part of humannature, yes.
And I also think, going back towhat we were talking about,
human development and naturalchild development, I think if we
remind ourselves that this iswhat kids go through, their
frontal lobe is stilldeveloping, it's normal for kids
(33:21):
to fall apart, especially ifthey're tired or they're hungry
or who knows, as you pointed outbefore, but it's all normal, and
it's all part of the joys ofparenting. Yeah,
yeah. Magda says weunderestimate infants and we
overestimate toddlers, and Ithink we overestimate children
and teenagers too. You know, weforget that frontal lobe is
(33:42):
developing until well into the20s. It's all part of the normal
developmental process. I have toremind myself that, okay, so
now, just for parents listeningin the moment, sometimes it's
hard to remember what to do. Doyou have any go to scripts that
we can share with parents sothat they can sort of practice
those scripts, or think aboutthose scripts so that if they
are in a moment where theirchild's dysregulated, that that
(34:03):
they can go back to and useI get that asked that question a
lot, and what I say is, youknow, I can give you some of the
things that I would say, butit's important for you to try on
and see how it sounds coming outof your mouth and how you feel
and what's in your vernacular,because the other piece of Rye
(34:24):
is the authenticity. And so ifwe lean too heavily into the
scripts, then that's that'sreally not going to be that
helpful. So think about whatyour desire is. You know, when a
child is having a tantrum, like,Okay, I want them to recover,
and I want them to know that I'mhere. So how do I how do I
communicate that like the way IMelanie will communicate that
(34:46):
is, I will say, Gosh, I see you.
That's really upsetting. Yourmom just walked out the door and
you're crying, and that'sreally, really hard, but it's
important to. People come upwith, think about what your goal
is, and then just talk about itin the most simple terms.
(35:07):
I think about in my head, I sayempathy, followed by the
boundary. So you see the child,you try to see why they're
frustrated, and then as theparent, you let them know why
they can't do that, or what youexpect of them. Does that sound
right?
That sounds good? Yeah. Magdasaid, reflect respect. Respond.
So you see what's happening. Youtake their point of view into
(35:29):
consideration and yours, andthen you figure out what the
next thing is. Reflect respect,respond.
Now here's another one that Ihear a lot from parents that I
think would be helpful to getyour take on. Sometimes, when
parents provide a boundary orthey're strict, the child
responds by laughing. And thatfrustrates so many parents,
because it doesn't feel like thenatural response. What would you
(35:51):
say about that response? Yeah,well, and laughing is, it's a
response, you know? It can be afear response, or it can be
like, Oh my god, I did. Can'tbelieve I did that thing. Like,
have you ever like, Have youever like, done something that
you were so stunned that you didthat you kind of laughed at
yourself even though you werelike that? I can't believe I
just did that. And so that's,that's where it comes from. And
I try to tell parents, it's sohard because it's triggering,
(36:15):
but try not to respond to thelaughing like you could say, you
know, I've told you not to hityour sister, and they just
laugh. And you say, you justused to say, Yeah, I mean it.
You're not allowed to hit yoursister and like, just just not
even give a response toit, just not give it attention.
It's true, what we what we giveattention to, they'll do more of
so that makes sense, just to tryyour best to ignore it. Yeah.
(36:40):
And then again, like thatlaughing is probably coming
from, like, if they've hit theirsister, and now you, the parent
has come in and said, Don't dothis. They're laughing. It's
probably like, kind of a stressresponse. And so you're going to
continue to enforce theboundary, but then we're going
to talk about it later. Hey, Icame in and I said, don't hit
(37:02):
your sister. And that's thatprobably was kind of startling.
Let's tell the story about whathappened. And yeah, then, and
then you laughed. I think youwere surprised that I came in so
strongly. Ihave to say, I'm really enjoying
this conversation. I think forso many parents, we love our
children to the moon. We wantnothing more than to have a
beautiful relationship withthem, but when they act up,
which all kids do, I think itreally helps to have a guiding
(37:25):
principle on how to respond, andrye is really a helpful method.
So thank you for explaining itto everybody.
Rye is an approach that isdesigned to bring comfort and
joy to parents and to children,and that is what I hope people
will take away from it.
(37:46):
Now, for people that arelistening, they've loved what
they've heard so far about rye,they want to learn more. Can you
direct them to where they canlearn from you, or any resources
that you recommend?
Sure. So Rye is our website. R,I, E, dot, O, R, G, that is
where you will find all of ourassociates. Rye has been around
for almost 50 years. We haveover 80 associates all over the
(38:10):
world, not just here in SouthernCalifornia, but we have people
in Washington, in New York, inCanada, in Australia, New
Zealand, China. We are very wellspread out and and most of this
work is, of course, face to faceand personal, but you can always
find someone that you can hop onthe phone with, or you can have
an email exchange with ryeassociates are people who have
(38:33):
gone through the multi yeartraining to teach other people
about this work. So that's whatyou want to look for if you're
looking to take a class or takea course or get a little bit
more information. So R, i e, dotO, R, G and
Melanie, I have to tell you thatmy patients that go to you, they
say the best things about you.
They've loved your guidance. Sothank you so much for being here
and for sharing your thoughtsabout ry. It's been really
(38:55):
helpful.
Thank you so much for invitingme. This was a really fun
conversation, and I appreciateit.
Thank you for listening, and Ihope you enjoyed this week's
episode of your child is normal.
Also, if you could take a momentand leave a five star review,
wherever it is you listen topodcasts, I would greatly
appreciate it. It really makes adifference to help this podcast
grow. You can also follow me onInstagram at ask Dr Jessica, see
you next Monday. Bye.
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