STRENGTH: Embracing Self-Love & Inner Resilience w/ Madeleine Gunhart

Can the path to healing and self-love be found within the cards of the Tarot? Join me as we explore the profound lessons of the Strength card in the Major Arcana and its themes of self-love, tenderness, and resilience. Through personal reflections and stories, we unravel how this card invites us to embrace and nurture all aspects of ourselves, even those parts we find difficult to love.

For this episode, I'm joined by Madeleine Gunhart, a cherished member of the Typewriter Tarot community, who shares her journey of navigating and overcoming emotional abuse, finding solace in the Tarot, and the transformative power of self-acceptance.

In this conversation with Madeleine, you’ll discover how an unexpected spiritual journey, sparked by a fascination with witchcraft and nudged along by a perceptive therapist, can open doors to personal growth and inner peace. We also confront common misconceptions about spirituality and the societal judgments that often accompany it. Through vivid discussions about the recurring infinity symbol in the Strength card and its connection to renewable spiritual energy, we illustrate the ongoing journey of self-acceptance and love. Madeleine’s insights into the Swords suit add depth to our conversation, highlighting the importance of confronting and nurturing our inner thoughts and beliefs.

We also get into topics like: our deep love for animals, Rachel Pollack's 78 Degrees of Wisdom, the therapeutic power of writing, and setting boundaries.

You can learn more about Madeleine and connect with her on Instagram or via her website. And read Madeleine's essay, "Plucking Out and Picking Up the Swords," on our blog.

This podcast is a production of Typewriter Tarot. Learn more & join us:

• Join the newsletter and receive the first 3 journaling prompts from Tarot for Creative Spirits (the workbook).
• Subscribe to Typewriter Tarot's Substack.
• Check out upcoming events & workshops.
• Join the Creative Magic Collective.
• Work one-on-one with Cecily (book a free curiosity call).
• Book a Tarot reading.
• Shop our bookshop.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello and welcome to your Creative and Magical Life,
which is hopefully your actuallife, but is also this podcast,
a show that explores how tarot,divination and spirituality can
help us live a life thatsparkles with magic and
creativity.
I'm your host, cecily Saylor.
Let's make some magic.

(00:31):
Hello, creative spirits,Welcome to another episode of
your Creative and Magical Life.

(00:52):
I'm so glad you're here.
I appreciate you listening.
This episode is an explorationof the Strength card, which is
card number eight in the MajorArcana.
It comes after the Chariot andbefore the Hermit, and this is
one of my favorite cards to see.

(01:15):
It always feels really sweet,really tender, really loving to
see this card and I always feelreally held by it.
My sense on some level, whenthis card comes up for me, is
that the universe, the greatconsciousness, the great mystery

(01:38):
you know, I don't, I don't knowwhat to call it all the time,
but I feel like that great forcebeyond me is inviting me to
love myself even more fully,even more deeply, to bring love
to myself, to parts of myselfthat I find sometimes difficult

(01:59):
to love or that I assume otherpeople find difficult to love
and maybe they do.
But it's as if the universe issaying you belong here, you are
loved in this great cosmos.
Can you love yourself as fully?
There's a really beautifulconversation you're about to
hear where we get into differentfacets of this card, different

(02:24):
aspects of it, different ways toread it and think about it, and
I'm really excited to sharethis conversation.
It's with Madeline Gunhart, whohas been a part of the
Typewriter Tarot community forseveral years now.
Madeline has attended workshopsand classes.

(02:44):
Madeline has attended workshopsand classes and she has also
worked with me for a time in acoaching container and I was
supporting her both with herwriting but then with other
things that were coming up inher life around that time and
related to the work of herwriting.

(03:05):
And it's been a reallybeautiful thing for me to get to
know Madeline over time andbuild a relationship with her
and get to know her writing,which is really incredible.
She often writes for youngreaders, but there's a beautiful
sense of humor and playfulnessand also seriousness and

(03:25):
tenderness in her work.
And then, more recently,madeline has been helping out
with Typewriter Tarot, sometimesbehind the scenes, sometimes
out there on the stage.
She's written pieces for ourblog.
She's helped in various ways andhas been a very welcome
supporter of the many differentthings typewriter tarot does and

(03:49):
she's just an incrediblythoughtful, sweet person, not
only a writer, but a tarotreader herself and also an
animal lover an empath, I think,and, yeah, I'm just a big fan
and she shares in this episodevery tenderly and vulnerably
about her relationship with thiscard and also some difficult

(04:13):
experiences in her life, whichinclude emotional abuse.
There's not a lot of detailthat she shares about that, but
I want to mention that up frontin case that's a tender spot for
you as well.
Listen with care.
But Madeline recently wrote apiece for our blog about working

(04:33):
with the sword suit and howthat suit, initially to her,
felt quite harsh and scary,especially having felt some of
the emotional attacks she hadexperienced in the past.
But over time she's been ableto work with that suit in

(04:55):
interesting ways and really findmore freedom and more peace and
more self-love through workingwith that suit.
And I think that's the kind ofwork that strength is inviting
us to do when it shows up is tolook at our thoughts, look at
our beliefs, look at the partsof us that are calling out for a

(05:19):
bit more love and attention.
So I wanted to bring Madeline onthe show.
For that reason, her piecereally inspired me, really moved
me.
You'll find a link to it in theshow notes.
But yeah, I hope thisconversation helps you see this
card in the big, expansive,multifaceted way that I think it

(05:42):
can be related to.
So yeah, let's get into it.
Hello Madeline, welcome to yourCreative and Magical Life.
It's so nice to have you on theshow and I'm excited to talk

(06:04):
about the strength card with you.
Hi, cecily, it's so nice tohave you on the show and I'm
excited to talk about thestrength card with you, hi.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
Cecily, I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, my pleasure.
It's been really wonderfulgetting to know you over a
period of years and latelyyou've been doing some work for
Typewriter Tarot, you've beenhelping with the blog, you've
been writing beautiful essays,you've been doing tarot scopes
and helping with other littlethings, and we've also worked

(06:32):
together in a coaching container.
And I don't know how long hasit been since like we first
connected, and do you rememberhow that happened?

Speaker 2 (06:43):
I want to say it was 2020 when I first started
following you and then coming toevents and things.
Um, I believe that's when Ifirst made my Instagram and at
that point, um, my face was notconnected to it or anything.
Um, it was just a place where Iposted, like my personal tarot
readings and, um, I pretendedthat I was like a mouse.

(07:04):
I had this little mouse puppetand.
I had, uh, the mouse always inmy tarot pictures and a friend
of mine was like I found thisreally cool tarot account.
I think you'd really dig it.
And at the time, I think likeevery Monday you were reading
out one of the mystic messagepoems and I just immediately was
like who is this person?

(07:25):
She is so cool, I like so vibewith everything that's going on
here.
So I followed you and I orderedsome mystic messages and then I
started coming to the eventsand classes and, you know,
eventually I guess I just kindof became a familiar face who
was like always showing up atyour events.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, well, I'm glad, I'm so glad that happened and,
um, I've, like the whole time,been connecting with your vibe
too and it's been really, um,yeah, lovely for me to get to
know.
You know different people inthe community, but but today
we're focused on you and it'sbeen really fun getting to know

(08:08):
your work.
You're a writer, a fictionwriter, and a tarot reader now,
and so we're going to talk aboutthe strength card, but first I
thought, maybe would you tell mehow you got into tarot and how
tarot came to you.
Yeah, when did that start?
What did that look like?

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, it's kind of interesting.
So I think it was about likesix years ago, it's like 2018.
And, um, you know, I wasn't onInstagram yet, but I still love
following other like writers andartists online and I was doing
through doing so through um umtumblr, which is like a blogging
site.
And then I saw, like startedseeing all these posts, um on

(08:51):
tumblr about people who arepracticing witchcraft and I
thought it was so cool.
But I thought, like this is nota world for me.
This isn't something I've beeninitiated into.
And then I decided like, well,maybe I'll write a book about
witches and then I can just likeresearch it and that can be
like my reason for looking atall this witchy stuff.
Um, so I was like very much anadmirer of all these spiritual

(09:13):
things and then it hit a pointwhere I'm like, oh, I think I
really want to get a tarotreading.
Um, but then at that point Iwas still kind of denying myself
and I was like, no, maybe whatI really need is therapy,
because I want to like talk tosomebody about my life.
Maybe I need like to go to atherapist, not a tarot reader
and it was really funny becausemy therapist ended up being

(09:35):
pretty woo woo.
When I walked into her office,one of the first things she said
is like you strike me as like agreen witch, is that true?
And I was like Whoa, holy shit,like I had not said anything to
anyone about, like my interestin witchcraft and she just like
pegged me immediately and, um,she gave me the homework to go
out and get a tarot deck Cause Iwas interested in it.

(09:58):
And uh, another really funelement is, um, one of my best
friends also kind of likesecretly was getting into tarot
at the same exact time as me, sowe became tarot buddies and he
is a teacher, so he learnedsuper fast and kind of like
helped me on my journey.
And yeah, initially it wasmainly a tool kind of for my own

(10:25):
mental health and likeconnecting to spirituality and
exploring internally, but thenat a certain point I started
reading for other people and Idiscovered I really loved doing
that too.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, beautiful, I love it.
I love that you found atherapist who could, who could,
see you, as you maybe wanted tobe seen very quickly.
And I think you're alsobringing up something that's
really common, which is likewhen people get into tarot,
they're kind of like really hushhush about it at first, and
it's a very like tender thing.

(10:59):
If you haven't been workingwith it before.
It's like you kind of likecreep up to it and you're like
am I gonna do this?
Yes, um, and then it takes awhile to kind of come out of the
broom closet and uh, yeah, soit's just for you.
I'm curious for you.
It sounds like it was partlylike should I be doing this?

(11:23):
Like is this for me?
Or like do I have permission todo it?
Was there anything else thatfelt like it created any
trepidation for you?

Speaker 2 (11:34):
About like engaging with the world of spirituality.
I'm like what if I accidentallylike summon something weird or
like step into something strange?
I shouldn't like.
I was very afraid there was,like there were, forces out
there that I might like anger orsomething I don't know.
And you know I was raised in ahousehold that was very like I

(11:57):
don't want to say antispirituality, but, like you know
, my parents were both raisedChristian and decided to leave
the faith and religion wasalways kind of treated as a joke
and like I think there's thisperception a lot of people have
that like spirituality is forpeople who are like flaky and
detached from reality.

(12:18):
So I had worries about that.
Like you know, if I do this, amI going down a path where I'm
like losing my mind?
Am I, like you know, going intoweird territory?
And then there's also thesocial element of, like you know
, people are going to think thisis really weird.
This is not something that I'veever engaged with before.
And, um, the first person notthe very first person, because I

(12:43):
uh told my husband first and heis just like always so
supportive of everything I dohe's amazing.
But the person I told afterthat laughed at me when I said,
like you know, I think I'm awitch, I'm reading tarot, and
they felt bad afterwards, but itwas like it was a little bit
humiliating and you know, ittook me a while to kind of

(13:03):
completely come out of the broomcloset.
It was definitely a longprocess and people said things
to me like oh, I'm so surprisedthat you were, like, you're too
sweet to be a witch, or you know, um, there's this whole
perception about what it is and,um, you know, I'm sure we'll
get into it a lot more becausewe're talking about strength,
about my journey with, like,stepping into myself.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
But that was, it was difficult to deal with what
other people thought at the timeyeah, that seems like a big
part of it is like otherpeople's perception of what that
means or what it says about you, and just like not having
people in your life who hadrelated to you in that way or
understood that as part of whoyou are.

(13:47):
And I kind of wanted to getinto that just for anyone who's
listening, who's in that spaceof trepidation, that like it's
normal to sort of be grapplingwith some of those questions,
and I think there is a lot ofpreconceived notions or cultural
messaging around, like what awitch is or, yeah, like you said

(14:11):
, how spiritual people can be,like just really floaty and
abstract and like vaguelypositive or something like that.
Like it doesn't seem groundedor practical or sensible, though
I found that like having aspiritual life or having

(14:33):
spirituality as part of my lifemakes helps my life feel more
grounded and helps me movethrough practical things more
effectively.
So I'm glad you thank you forsharing that.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, I feel the same way about spirituality being so
grounded, Like I was worried itwas this thing that was going
to like take me floating offinto like this weird sphere.
But it's helped me get so muchmore in touch with myself and
the earth and community and it'sbeen such a beautiful thing in
my life.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yes, amazing.
So let's get into the strengthcard before this episode gets on
too much longer.
And first let me ask you I'mgonna pull up the card for us to
look at and kind of describetogether but let me ask you if
you have kind of a personalstory with this card or if

(15:24):
there's like an initial thingyou want to say about the
strength card yeah, I have a lotto say about this card.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
um, I guess I will start with the fact that and I
won't get too much into itbefore we describe it, but I I
love that.
It's a very unexpecteddepiction of strength.
I would say, in like modernsociety, what we think of as
strength, most people would notconjure this image and to me,
this has become a beacon of whatstrength truly means for me in

(15:56):
my inner and outer worlds, and Ijust think it is a beautiful
and powerful card and I am soexcited to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
All right, let's get into it.
Yeah, I was having a similarthought this morning as I was
thinking about this episodecoming up or this conversation,
and, yeah, I was like you know,it would have been really easy
for something like the chariotimage or some sort of masculine,
like warrior image to bepresented with this notion of

(16:29):
strength, and instead we getsomething.
We have a female figure, forone thing, and this depiction of
tenderness, and so, yeah, maybetell me what you see with this
card, or will you help ourlisteners imagine it or
visualize it, if they're notalready familiar with it?

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yes, so we have a woman or a femme figure in this
beautiful long white gown.
She has a flower crown and likeflowers kind of draped around
her middle and she has her handson the head of a lion.
And the lion, you know, kind ofdepending on the day I changed

(17:14):
my mind about what hisexpression means.
But you know you could say he'sa little bit agitated maybe,
but it looks like he's lickingher wrist and in the background
is this beautiful vista of treesand mountains.
But the two figures, the womanand the lion, loom so much
larger than all of that.
Above her head is an infinitysymbol and then the background

(17:37):
is yellow sky.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
And that infinity symbol is something we also see
over the head of the magiciansymbol is something we also see
over the head of the magicianand in the chariot episode and
maybe in another episode, Ican't remember.
But I've talked about how youcan arrange the major arcana
into those three lines of sevenand when you do that, the

(17:58):
magician is directly above thestrength card, so that infinity
symbol is like upstairs anddownstairs in both of them and
with the magician it's this likemanifestation connecting to
source, or that's the way Iunderstand it, connecting to
source and I think that infinitysymbol also is a reminder that

(18:35):
we can connect with thatspiritual resource or that
spiritual energy at any time,like it's a, it's a renewable
energy, it's a sustainableenergy.
It's always available to us.
What, for you, does this cardrepresent?
Or, if we take, you know, if wenotice that the lion might be

(18:58):
agitated but that it's alsolicking her wrist and how she's
kind of caressing its head onthe top, like she's petting him,
and on the bottom, how she'skind of caressing its head on
the top like she's petting himand on the bottom like she's
kind of stroking his chin whatdoes this mean for us as humans
who get this card like what isthis an invitation to do for you
?

Speaker 2 (19:17):
for me, this card has always been about befriending
the parts of me that feelbeastly, and showing tenderness
to every part of me, even theparts of myself that have hurt
me, the parts that I don'tunderstand, the parts that scare
me, and, um, just how it trulytakes a lot of strength to love

(19:38):
yourself and accept yourself.
And it is this journey and um Isomething I think about with
the infinity symbol too, eventhough I wouldn't say like yes,
this is the meaning of it.
But it reminds me that, likewe're constantly on this journey
with ourselves, it's like anever ending journey.
Our love story with ourselvesnever really has an ending, at

(19:59):
least in my opinion, and it'sconstant work to love and accept
ourselves.
But it can also be constant joy, or maybe not constant, but it,
you know, it can bring so muchjoy and fun.
And, like the infinity symbols,sometimes it makes me think of
like a racetrack and you're justkind of always going, and you

(20:22):
know I don't love like the racecar imagery, but maybe it should
be more like a river that'sjust always flowing.
But I do think that we oftenaren't really bold to tend to
the relationship to self, unlessit's a way of like, fix
yourself, go to therapy and fixyourself, and we're not really
invited to befriend ourselvesand have fun with ourselves or

(20:47):
like even romance ourselves.
And to me, this card is verymuch about like accepting all of
the parts.
It actually reminds me ofsomething we talked about when I
was getting creative coachingfrom you, getting creative

(21:07):
coaching from you.
And so I am somebody who hasstruggled with chronic
depression and anxiety and youhelped me see that, like you
know, often my depressiveepisodes are there to kind of
help me, like force myself intothis rest that I very much
needed.
And that's not to say likedepression is all good and fun.
But you know, there have beentimes luckily not so much
anymore, but where I've had tojust like stay in bed for a

(21:30):
couple of days, and, you know,for a very long time I
villainized my depression but it, you know, in its own way it
was working to help me, to helpme, and often these things that
we think are really scary andbeastly and harmful are just,

(21:50):
you know, these animals thatneed our love and attention.
Looking at this card, I thinkof like the big dogs I've had in
my life who are just kind oflike too rambunctious, and you
know they'll sometimesaccidentally jump up and hurt
you or scratch you, but theydon't mean to and you know, if
you just show them that love andthat affection, um, they will
show it back to you.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Um, I love what you said, like, like, there are
these, these parts of us thatmaybe we are tempted to try to
fix or we want to fix, or wefeel some perhaps shame about,
because we haven't figured outhow to address them or make them
go away as these animals thatneed our love and attention.

(22:32):
And, yeah, I think everythingyou described about the card you
said so beautifully it doestake so much courage to look at
yourself honestly and to look atthe parts of yourself that feel
to you dangerous because theymay damage relationships or they

(22:58):
might not be palatable tonormative society like, um, or
you know, we've been throughperiods of life that were
chaotic and we did and we gotlost and we did things that
we're not proud of.
And for me, this card startedto mean a lot in the early

(23:19):
months.
Well, I mean in the after.
I'm talking about when I quitdrinking alcohol and I it was
still a year after that beforetarot would come into my life.
So there was like that firstyear.
You're basically like a newbaby in an adult body.
It was like learning how tolive again.
And then tarot came in and Istarted to understand some of

(23:44):
the cards and I remember readingRachel Pollack's 78 Degrees of
Wisdom, which for me was kind ofthe first time that the major
arcana started to mean somethingreally significant and like
profound.
Because they're big archetypesLike it's hard to kind of find a
story in them.
Sometimes they just kind ofshow us, you know, like the

(24:06):
emperor is just like a dudesitting there.
In a way there's plenty ofinformation in the way he's
sitting there, but it's hard tolike see a story sometimes in
the major arcana.
And that book was really richin terms of like oh, this is
what this conveying spirituallyand I think I was pulling this
card from you know with somefrequency and it really felt

(24:30):
like this validation that I hadstarted for the first time this
process of like looking atmyself and parts of myself and
things that I had done or failedto do, when, you know, alcohol
was such a big part of my lifeand was just like suppressing me
from doing things like withintegrity or doing things with

(24:53):
courage or doing things withlike boldness and really like
saying, you know, that's whathappened and that's like the
journey I went through and itwasn't beautiful and it was not
like good and I'm not real proudof it, but that's also like how
I am here now and it just feltlike such a sweet reflection of

(25:18):
that.
Really difficult because, likeyou know, for me when I and I'm
sorry I'm sort of like gettingtoo deeply into the story, but
suddenly I'm feeling veryconnected to the card.
You know, like the thing likedrinking could not allow me to
look at myself honestly and itrequired a lot of denial and, um

(25:39):
, when it went away, like when Iquit, that was not, I couldn't
use that anymore.
And the way to like keepstaying sober was to go through
this process of self,self-acceptance and like
learning to love myself in adifferent way.
So, yeah, I've just like wentdown, went down a whole rabbit
hole there with that, but, um,this card is just really special

(26:02):
.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
That was really beautiful and powerful.
I'm so glad you shared that.
Thank you, and, um, Icompletely relate to just
getting very emotional about thestrength card.
So I love, I love that we'rehaving this conversation.
I think it's great.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Thank you, good Thank you for being part of it.
A couple of things were comingup for me as you were talking,
and one of them is your ownrelationship with animals.
You and I are both like deeplyin love with animals, like
generally, and, um, I rememberduring our work together there

(26:41):
was like some conversation aboutcreating like a plan for
yourself.
Like maybe you were waiting fornews about something, you know,
would this thing be a yes or ano?
And we kind of crafted thisplan for you.
What were you going to doregardless and how are you going
to celebrate your effortsanyway?
And you chose to go to thisanimal refuge and be with the

(27:01):
animals and I just I was likethat's perfect for you and like
that sounds so fun and so lovely.
And I wonder, like, how do youfeel a connection with animals?
And like can you talk a littlebit about what it's like for you
?
Because what we're seeing inthis card is like when you make
that approach with an animalthat doesn't know you and we

(27:23):
have to kind of you know wecan't just like throw our arms
around like a horse that we justmet right, like that's gonna be
fucked up, like that energy oflike approaching in a certain
way.
Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 (27:37):
I totally know what you're saying and, um, you know,
in some strange ways I almostfeel like it's more intuitive
for me to communicate withanimals and other humans, cause
with humans we have all these,all these, like you know, the
veneer of small talk and howmuch can I share and when.
But like animals, I feel likeyou know, just look at them and

(27:59):
you kind of are reading eachother's vibe and connecting on
the soul level and reading thebody language and, um, I don't
know, to me I've always had suchan easier time with animals and
people because there's not allthis kind of weird societal
veneer of shoulds.
It's just like this is how weare and this is how we relate

(28:22):
and we are really taking thetime to observe each other and
you know, as you mentioned withthe horse example, like there's
a lot of consent that needs tohappen with interactions with
animals.
It's interesting because I wasjust talking to a friend who's a
new mom and she was talkingabout how awful it is that

(28:44):
people just come up and feellike they can like touch her
daughter and talk to her whenshe's out and about, and I have
very vivid memories of being ayoung, young child and being
held and just wanting to be outand just feeling like a caged
animal and um.
So you know, perhaps that'spart of it too why I, you know,

(29:04):
connected with, you know my catsfrom such a young age.
That was like the first pet Ihad growing up because, you know
, they understood thoseboundaries and we could see it
in each other in a way thatpeople I feel like kind of often
bulldozed past, if that makessense.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, totally, and I think with you know, with humans
that have a respect for animalsand a love for them, there's
this like curiosity seems to bethe way to connect.
And curiosity is something youcan hold in your own space and

(29:45):
you can kind of like open yourfield, you know, or like you can
look at the animal and sort ofwatch to see is the animal also
curious about you?
And then you can kind of likemove closer together and there
can you know if you're meeting anew dog, we like give it the
back of our hand to sniff.

(30:05):
I know my dog.
Even when you like give thehand, she gets even more mad,
like she's very suspicious ofnew people, and so you actually
have to like just sort of donothing and then she comes and
sniffs your crotch and thenthere's like a relationship that
can start.
And yeah, that curiosity is thesame kind of thing I think we

(30:27):
have to use in the self loveprocess.
Like I'm thinking back to mylong story about when I quit
drinking, like the only way tokind of enter that chasm of like
the person I had been and someof the things I had done that I

(30:48):
wasn't proud of, or some of thethings I had ignored or not
taken care of was this curiositylike how did that happen?
Or, you know, my dad was aheavy drinker growing up.
Both of my grandfathers werealcoholics and, you know, died
in some their their deaths wereassociated with their addiction,

(31:08):
and so and I'm not saying thatwas the only contributing factor
, but it certainly like set meup for something, not to mention
how casually they like drankand how drinking was just kind
of like what you do at the endof a work day or something, or
what you do when you're relaxing.

(31:29):
It was just like part of thatway of living.
And so that wasn't the onlything.
There were also like wounds orlike voids inside of me that I
was trying to fill with alcohol.
But having curiosity became away for me to say, oh, this is
how I got here and this is howit kind of took the path that it

(31:51):
did.
And even if that wasn'tsomething I could like get super
excited about, it was somethingI could start to understand and
give, give myself compassionfor, and I think, like I love
what you said too about animals,how they don't have like the
pretense and there's noposturing, and it's just kind of

(32:13):
this like feeling sense witheach other and that that feels
really genuine.
Yeah, it also something elsegot me thinking as we were
talking and you don't have torespond to this, but there was
another moment in our worktogether where, like big cats,
like the lion in this card,started to play play a role in

(32:38):
some way and would would youfeel okay sharing anything about
that, do you?
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (32:43):
I would love to share .
I um, I was hoping this wouldcome up and thank you for
reminding me because I mighthave forgotten, but, um, yeah,
so, uh, we did a guidedmeditation and, as I recall, in
the guided meditation I was on aboat on a river and then,
rounding a corner, there wasthis tiger that was just sitting

(33:06):
there and staring me in the eyeand it was like powerful and it
was also really scary.
And as we dug deeper into that,I shared that I was having
these recurring dreams of thesebig cats attacking me, where
they would just run up and jumpon me.
And it was always these reallyscary dreams, like the kind that

(33:28):
I would wake up and my heartwould be racing.
Cecily did this like reallyamazing, like detective work
with this and was kind of asking, like, oh well, does the cat
ever attack you Really, like arethe claws coming out as you're
biting, like not in a judgmentalway, but just kind of like
trying to understand the pictureof these dreams, and I realized

(33:50):
, like you know what?
No, it's, you know they'realways jumping on me and I'm
terrified, but it doesn'tprogress beyond that and Cecily
said you know, I wonder if thesebig cats are actually trying to
hug you and like, get yourattention and show you love.
And that just like exploded mybrain a little bit.
I was like holy shit.

(34:11):
At the same time my mom wascleaning out her garage and she
brought out this porcelainpainted tiger that my maternal
grandmother had painted.
And my maternal grandmotherdied well before I was born and
when I was a really young kid.

(34:31):
One day I just went up to mymom and very confidently said
I'm your mom.
And according to my mom, itfelt different than like playing
or goofing around, like I justwas like dead serious, told her
that walked away.
So there's this kind of beliefin my family that I might be my
grandma reincarnated and it wasjust so powerful that, you know,

(34:56):
just as we were happening to dothis work, my mom pulls out
this tiger of hers.
And then Cecily and I were likeoh, wow.
So maybe you know the big catin this dream is like my grandma
giving me a hug and you know ifI am, you know any part of my
grandma that's also likeself-love, like me hugging

(35:16):
myself Right, it's wild.
Since then I have not had thosedreams anymore.
So I feel like I really feellike that was the message that
was trying to come across to me,and the big cat was like you
finally did it.
You finally got it.
I'm going to move on.
I've been trying to tell youthis for years, you know.
Um, so it was, uh, reallyreally just fucking cool and

(35:39):
mind blowing and amazing.
And, um, after that, we kind ofdeveloped like the tiger as a
symbol of my confidence andstrength and resilience, and I
would be out walking my dog andyou know I'd be getting in my
head about things.
And then I was like no, I'vebeen imagined the tiger walking
next to me and I would suddenlyjust feel so much more powerful.

(36:00):
It really is like wild how itwas like the strength card
coming to life and like comingin my dreams, to me.
So yeah, thank you so much forbringing that up.
I, I like still get goosebumpsthinking about that honestly
yeah, it's funny because it's.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
I don't think I made the connection with the strength
card at the time, but now itseems quite obvious.
But there's a lot, there was alot to unpack and yeah, I just
thought that was so beautifuland so magical that also, like
this literal porcelain tigerfrom your childhood, connected

(36:38):
with your grandmother, appearedI don't think I knew that you
had said that to your mom as akid um, which sort of just adds
another layer of magic to all ofthis.
But I do remember how that thecats were this like fierce,
scary thing and then there wasthis ability or capacity to

(36:59):
transform that into like an allyand to sort of see yourself as
strong and bold and like proudas such an animal.
Um, and you know, for you as alover of animals, like they pick
a scary animal for the strengthcard on purpose.
And there's like another aspectof that card that I've heard

(37:24):
that that like she and maybethis comes from Lindsay Mack but
that like this idea that no onewould encourage this human
figure to approach this cat,like everyone would say you need
to stay away from that lion,don't pet lions.
But there's this felt sense inher that the lion is not going

(37:47):
to kill her and she will likesurvive this encounter and
perhaps even come away with itwith something like more
valuable.
And so, in spite of whateveryone would say and you know,
similarly like, in spite ofconventional wisdom, which is
mostly implicit, to like hide,sometimes explicit, actually,
more and more now but like tohide these parts of yourself

(38:11):
that are strange, queer, youknow, not normalized, not
socialized properly, that arewild, to like keep all that down
, keep it in check, don'tapproach it, don't even look at
it, much less like befriend it,because what happens when you
befriend it is like you canbring it back into yourself.

(38:35):
It's like like what you weresaying about depression was
trying to like show yousomething and again, we're not
saying like depression's great,such a beautiful teacher, or
like that that's always the casefor everyone but that there was
something trying to speak fromdeep down inside of you and your
ability to like open up tolistening to that, rather than

(38:57):
just trying to like hey, cansomeone get me free, can you
just like stop this depressionfor me?
Or like, do you know,chemically, do whatever you can,
but there was like a, theharder work of like what might
be going on here and like whatpart of me might be needing
something and how can I look atthat, find acceptance and that

(39:19):
it can come live inside mewithout making me sick yes,
absolutely, and that that's sopowerful.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
That's something I've never really thought about with
the strength card before, aboutlike there's a strength in this
woman going up to the lion with, like you know can imagine,
people in the back are like no,what the hell are you doing?
Stop that, you know.
And not only is it strong of usto accept and love and examine

(39:49):
all these parts of ourselves.
It's not always encouraged work.
It transforms us in ways that,um, I think often, you know,
other people are not going to bereceptive of immediately, and
so there's kind of just boththis internal and external
strength at play there.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
I should have a better grasp specifically on
this quote and who it's from.
I almost feel like it's OctaviaButler, audre Lorde, and shame
on me.
I also have terrible recallwhen I'm trying to think of
something spontaneously.
So please, please, forgive meout there, but this notion that,
like, if you've fully acceptedyourself, there's nothing anyone

(40:32):
externally can do to shame youbecause you've already like done
that work of like diggingaround and like saying, okay,
that's part of me too, and Ichoose to love myself, or I
practice loving myself, and soyou know, yeah, any jerk who's
like you're this, you're that,you're too, whatever it doesn't

(40:54):
have to.
Your strength is like in beingunaffected by that or not taking
it as truth, but someone else'sfilter, which is what it is.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Absolutely yeah, and I I might be getting ahead of
myself here, but in the workthat Cecily and I did, a lot of
it was work on kind of undoing alot of negative voices inside
of me and it got to a pointwhere I realized that I was
trusting other people's voicesabove my own all the time, and

(41:32):
it wasn't even just these voices.
I kind of have been, you know,yapping at me for all these
years, but even sometimes I, youknow, would trust like a
stranger's judgment over my own,like oh, you're probably right,
you know, if you disagree withme, it's probably me, it's
probably something going on.
So it really was a big part ofmy strength journey to trust my

(41:56):
own judgment and trust my ownmind and my own perception.
So that that really rings true,you sharing.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
That makes me want to kind of take the bridge to the
essay that you recently wrotefor typewriter tarot, which was
about working with the swordscards, and it's a really
beautiful piece.
I'm going to link it in theshow notes.
Everyone should read it.
But like people most people donot like the swords.
They're really hard, they'rekind of hardcore.

(42:25):
They're the suit that presents,I think, more challenge than
the cups, the wands or thepentacles.
And the swords are about themind and what you were just
describing like taking otherpeople's thoughts or not
trusting your own thoughts asmore of a default, and then also
these like harsh thoughts thatyou had about yourself and kind

(42:48):
of realizing that your innerdialogue, which is the mind
talking to us, was notsupporting you.
Then that's the work of theswords to kind of examine what's
happening in the mind and seeif there's anything we want to
change or just look at like howour minds are functioning and

(43:08):
whether that's helping us orwhether that's hindering us and
like what could be possible toshift.
It feels to me like I don'tthink the the strength card is
exclusively about like swordskind of work, but I think it
probably like would have somekind of swords work involved,

(43:28):
cause there is this likecognitive process, like for me
in the example I've been sharing.
It's like that curiosity, likehow did this happen, what?
How did I end up on thisjourney and you know why.
Sometimes it was like why didit take me so long to change?
Which was a lot of fear, a lotof like over-identification, a

(43:50):
lot of habit, and a lot of likeactual neurological, like, uh,
truly biological, you know, likea kind of addiction, what
happens in the human body tosubstances that are addictive.
And so, yeah, will you talk alittle bit about that piece and

(44:11):
how you see the swords connectedto the strength card?

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yeah, jumping off of what you just shared, there was
a piece in my essay where I saidsomething along the lines of
you know, I needed to see, withthe clarity of the swords and I
do think that, you know,connected to what I was saying
about like trusting my own truthI feel like there's an element

(44:38):
of swords that is like kind ofcutting through the bullshit,
cutting through all the mess andleaving standing just like what
is really there in front of you, and I definitely think that's
part of a strength journey aswell is like understanding your
own truth, understanding thetruth that every part of you

(45:00):
wants to share.
Also, like I think there's apiece of kind of like defending
yourself, and I don't mean likeliterally picking up a sword and
like fighting people off, butfor me at least, a big part of
my strength journey was learningto love and respect myself
enough to protect myself and dothings like setting up

(45:22):
boundaries, for example.
That helped me feel moreprotected and understanding that
I deserve that protection, thatI am not, you know, somebody
who should just be a punchingbag laid out for everyone to use
as they will.
Like you know, I am thispowerful person with a tiger by

(45:43):
my side and I love being gentleand I love being sweet, but also
, you know, there's this phraseI learned recently that I really
love and it's called.
The phrase is even a worm willturn.
And what that means is likeeven the most like docile
creature, when provoked, willattack.
And that's just something I'vehad in my mind a lot, because I

(46:07):
very much relate to all thosespecies of animals who are like
I'm going to mind my business.
Unless you fuck with me, thenI'll fuck with you back.
And again, I'm not saying it inlike a revenge or like a
violent way, but, like you know,I have my defense mechanisms.
I will puff up my quills orfeathers or whatever they may be
if you try to attack me, whichis something I didn't really do

(46:30):
before I underwent this wholejourney.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
We also, like in our work together, came to this.
There was a sort of the clarity.
I guess there was like a momentof clarity, perhaps, and push
back if this doesn't feel right,but where, like, you had been a
punching bag in a way andreally had had experienced some

(46:54):
abuse that you didn't even think, or like you hadn't yet let
yourself think of as that,because no one else yes, seen it
that way and you had done, likeall of your, all of your mind,

(47:15):
your, your mental work had beensort of either trying to
downplay the severity of it,maybe telling yourself you were
too sensitive or that you wereat fault for provoking something
.
And then there was this momentof like no, you didn't deserve
any of that.
Like none of that is cool.

(47:36):
And then this, and I shut up, Ithink, because this is your
story, but I wonder how thiskind of plays.
That's something.
It's something you write aboutin that essay as well.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Yeah, so, um, what Cecily is bringing up here is,
um, kind of this discovery thatwe made together during our
coaching time that I had beenemotionally abused for years and
I had been severely gaslitabout it.
And, um, for years and I hadbeen severely gaslit about it

(48:17):
and, um, you know, part of thereason I feel like you know why
the gaslighting was even morepotent was because, um, my
abuser was not didn't fit intothe typical narrative of what
society described an abuser, asI feel like there are certain
roles in your life, um, thatlike a very narrow set of roles

(48:39):
that society is like.
You know, if you faced abuse,it's from this kind of person or
this kind of person in yourlife.
And, um, I am intentionallybeing vague for my own safety,
but I do think it's important torecognize that, like, abuse can
come in so many forms.
It can come from so manydifferent types of people, that

(49:02):
different relationships,different things.
So you know that that was justkind of part of the cocktail of
me never allowing myself to nameit as abuse, and you know, it
was very downplayed by people inmy life who didn't understand,
for people who enabled my abuser, and often it was turned back

(49:25):
on me and said like, well, youknow they, they wouldn't hurt
you if you just did this or ifyou just acted like that.
And I very much internalizedthat my behavior was a trigger
for this abuse, that it was upto me to make myself small

(49:47):
enough and docile enough andpalatable enough so that I
wouldn't get hurt and docileenough and palatable enough so
that I wouldn't get hurt.
Yeah, so it's.
I feel like I might have lostthe thread of what we initially
were saying there, but those aresome initial thoughts on that.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
Yeah, and I appreciate you speaking about it
in the way that you have andspeaking about it at all, and I
think you know what you describeis this situation that's very
common in an abusive dynamic andthere's like the harm of the

(50:24):
abuse itself, but then there'sthis extra layer of harm when
people who see the abuse do notintervene or do not say anything
or side with the abusive person, and so then this shame
develops because you're there,perceiving the abuse through.

(50:48):
Like you feel terrible, it'spainful, painful, it hurts, and
no one else around you willidentify your pain or join you
in it or come to you to say,like that was fucked up, that
shouldn't have happened, likewhat do you need?
And so, in the absence of that,people who experience abuse

(51:14):
develop a bit of shame around,like this idea that, yeah,
you're.
This is sort of like thismechanism.
That's the opposite of thestrength card, where it's like I
better contort myself intosomeone I don't even recognize,
or I need to become this personthat is not naturally me in
order to just like get throughthe situation or survive.

(51:39):
And yeah, like I just want tocelebrate your courage and
exploring that and also movingat a pace that was feasible for
you to start to like reclaimwhat had to be suppressed and to

(52:03):
then go beyond that and sort offind your strength again and
then create boundaries that werebased on your needs and what
your heart needed for you andwhat you're just like
spiritually, energetically, youneeded for yourself to be the

(52:24):
person that you want to be, theperson that you are, and so it's
really painful to excavate whatyou've tried and to also like
re-encounter the fact that somepeople abandoned you in that
process and I mean that in thesense of like not leaving you in
a relationship but did not cometo help you, you know, or

(52:45):
didn't affirm your experience.
So having to kind of look atthat again and say like, yeah,
that's really fucked, is verypainful, and then then the
healing you know starts tostarts to occur and these
changes can be made.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
So I also just want to applaud you for the, the love
that you've given yourself,like the strength card
experience that you've curatedfor yourself, and also the
beautiful way that you've umwritten about it in that essay
thank you so much, cecily, andum, I always have to thank you

(53:26):
too for your role in myunderstanding of this, because
and this is not me dunking on mytherapist, but I I was in
therapy for five years and I gota lot of really good stuff out
of it, but this was something wedidn't really tap into or
explore.
It was not named as abuse andyou know, part of that might

(53:47):
very well have been that, youknow, I was so gaslit and so
used to thinking like, oh, Ihave to present this like it's
no big deal.
So, like you know, maybe I justdid not kind of show enough how
big of a deal this abuse was inmy life and how it really
shaped so much of myself For meto come to Cecily after like a

(54:08):
very raw moment where you know,I had interacted with my abuser
again and it got really bad.
And I remember, coming toCecily that morning we had, you
know, our scheduled chat forcoaching and I was like I have
some like really intense shit tobring to the table.
I don't know if you're feelingprepared for that and Cely was

(54:30):
like, yeah, let's get into it.
And you know there's probably alot of specifics of the
conversation I don't remember,but just like I will never, ever
forget the feeling of havingthat experience validated for
the first time as abuse andbeing able to like hold that
label and being held by somebodywho I so admired and trusted

(54:54):
and saying like, yes, thishappened to you, this was real.
This was not in your head, thiswas like a big fucking deal.
Yeah, it's just.
Oh my gosh, this is so powerfuland just you know that kind of
started this whole journey.
I've been on, like you know, Ifeel like I'm on like several

(55:15):
journeys at all times, but thatreally got the ball rolling on
this like massive, massivejourney I did with self work and
self love, and I was finallyable to crack things that I
hadn't been able to for years,because I was finally
understanding where they werecoming from and finally
understanding my truth in a wayI hadn't before.

(55:37):
Um, so, yeah, this is just alittle like love circle, saying
like thank you, cecily, for justlike seeing me and validating
me and acknowledging me andcontinuing to lift me up.
And I don't want you to feellike you were fishing for this

(55:58):
in any way.
You were not at all, but youjust really have been such a
guardian influence in my lifeand I just think it's so magical
, but also meant to be, that wehave connected.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
I feel that way too and feel very honored that you
trusted me to you know, workwith you and that part of your
life and support you and I'm,you know, just really so glad
that you have a different likeyou're in a different place with

(56:35):
it and again just reallycelebrate you for the way that
you've led yourself and lovedyourself.
That's been really beautiful towatch.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
Yeah, and I'll just highlight like the clarity part,
and that's not to say like Idon't think the clarity we don't
have any clarity about, likeexactly why the abusive person
behaves in this way, right, likethere's some theorizing or
something, but that's likereally not your business and not

(57:11):
mine, right.
But the clarity for you becamelike, oh, this is why this feels
so bad and this is why it'slike, this is why, uh, this is
probably why I talked to myselfin certain ways and it just
happens without my awareness.
It's because you had likeinternalized some of the

(57:32):
language of this abuse and sothat that clarity, I think, is
part of that strength card.
Um, of like moving toward thelove is like starting to see
something, and it kind of takesme back to, like the animal
thing.
It's like we're trying, youknow, with an animal we don't
really.
The difference between ourselvesand the animal is kind of a

(57:55):
good thing because it createsmore curiosity.
Sometimes, like I mean, I seemy dogs every day, all day long,
and sometimes I look at my dogand I'm like are you real?
Are you like an actual, realcreature?
You're amazing.
And so like looking at thisanimal that's so different, that

(58:16):
has like a different experienceof life that we cannot access,
and that curiosity of like howare you Like, what are you?
And we can't really find out.
I think I'm probably makingconnections a little bit um, uh,
fumbling in the dark here, butum, the curiosity maybe
sometimes gets us to the claritywe need, at least for ourselves

(58:39):
, and sometimes I think maybejust seeing an animal being
curious about an animal helps usturn that back around on
ourselves, like, oh yeah, I'm ananimal too.
Like, how the hell am I like onthis planet living this?

Speaker 2 (58:53):
life.
Yes, absolutely, you know, I Iwas vibing with that the entire
time and feeling it so hard and,um, a moment, I have been
thinking about a lot with thestrength card too.
Um, so I am a huge fan of HayaoMiyazaki, who is a filmmaker

(59:13):
and animator and director, andhe just makes these gorgeous
animated films.
There are always these messagesof environmentalism and
anti-war and kind of loving andrespecting our earth and also

(59:37):
ourselves and each other, and Irewatched one of his films the
other day.
It's called Nausicaa and theValley of the Wind.
The main character, nausicaa, atone point, meets this little
cat-like creature and it's likethis feral little thing and
people are telling her to becautious of it.
And she's like no, no, I gotthis, it's okay.

(59:58):
And the little cat creaturecrawls up on her and she offers
her hand and it sinks its teethinto her finger and instead of
like yelping or getting upset orlike pulling away, she's just
like no, look, you don't have tobe afraid of me, it's okay,
it's okay.
And like lets the cat bite her,even though it's like obviously
hurting her really badly.

(01:00:19):
And then, um, the creatureeventually like gets back and
then just starts licking herfinger where it bit her and um,
to me that very much feelsstrength, journey too, of you
know, as we've been talkingabout, like some parts of
ourselves, whether they're likeparts that live within us or

(01:00:40):
parts of our past, you know,maybe seem kind of feral or
unlovable or scary to us, but wecan still offer them that love
and they might fight back alittle bit, but I, I personally
believe that we can loveourselves fully if we just kind

(01:01:01):
of keep trying and keep offeringour fingers with the
understanding that we might getbit a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
It's not without a little bit of pain, and I think
that's just from life.
It's not because of like who weare, it's just life.
Life has pain in it but we heal.
We, we have a scar, we, uh, welick the wound right, or the,

(01:01:28):
the little cat we found, likefor us.
I want to talk a little bitabout your writing and something
else that I got to enjoy in ourwork together, and one thing
you were working on at the timewas this novel about a

(01:01:49):
14-year-old girl who was a tarotreader in her high school and
she also, um, experiencedanxiety and there's this whole
yeah, there's like a great thingwith like tarot and bullying.
I mean, the bullying is nevergreat, but as a plot, as a plot

(01:02:11):
construct, it was um, very likeinteresting in the story and, um
, I also love the idea of like ayoung girl reading tarot in
high school and also kind ofusing it as a way to sort of
because she's very shy, like shedoesn't like to be seen, but
she's also very.
She's the narrator in the story.

(01:02:32):
She's very lovable, veryinteresting, she loves animals.
She reminds me a little bit ofyou, but I wonder, and it was
also just like wonderful to read.
You're a fantastic writer, thankyou.
But yeah, like, how do you see?
I believe her name was LilyLily, yes, yeah, I hope I'm not

(01:02:53):
sharing too much.
No, no, no, how do you see herin a strength kind of way?
Or maybe a parallel question islike does writing about
characters that have some echoof you help you in, like,

(01:03:13):
cultivating strength foryourself?

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
Yes, yeah, absolutely On both of those points.
I think the hardest parts of mylife were probably around age
14.
So there is something veryhealing about writing a
character who has, you know,similar qualities to me in some
ways and kind of giving her thisjourney earlier in her life and

(01:03:43):
just giving her some kinds ofcare and attention that I did
not receive at that point in mylife.
That I did not receive at thatpoint in my life.
One thing that I personallythink is really fun about Lily
is that like she has a hard timeexpressing herself and like
conversations and sticking upfor herself, but like when she's
reading tarot she can be sodirect and so, like this is what

(01:04:05):
I see, this is the message Likeshe's such a different
communicator when she's readingtarot than when she's just, like
, know, speaking out in theworld with people, and that is
something that in points in mylife, I have related to as well.
Um, a big part of her journey iskind of reconciling what she
sees as like this tarot readerversion of herself, who's very

(01:04:28):
like, cool and informed and ableto tell people things, and this
other part of herself thatstruggles with that more and
realizing that like they're allthe same self.
She has all of these attributesin her at the same time and she
kind of goes on this journeyabout finding her voice and
being able to stick up forherself and what she believes,

(01:04:51):
and being able to stick up forherself and what she believes.
When I write for teens, that isvery often kind of something
that's woven into my booksBecause, you know, partially
because I struggled with that somuch at that age, but I feel
like you know, it's so fuckinghard to be a teenager honestly,
like that is such a hard time oflife because there's like so

(01:05:13):
much expectation of you to beone certain way or to not be
this way or that way.
So, um, it's a bit of a way toshow love for, you know, my
inner 14 year old that stilllives with me, while also, you
know, hopefully one day, youknow, other teens will be able
to read this and maybe kind ofcontemplate their own strength

(01:05:35):
journey to some extent.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely think the book offers
that and needs to exist in theworld for that reason and others
.
Yeah, and I wanted to kind ofget into because I think you you
write about things that youlove and you care about, but you

(01:05:59):
also seem to have a goodsensibility around like the
palability of a story and like,maybe, how a story needs to move
and keep a reader engaged, andparticularly like writing for a
younger age group.
Um, and so you have, I don'tlike, from my point of view,

(01:06:19):
you've got like all the chopsand the commitment, um, and you
know, like so, in terms of thecreative, you seem to do well
for yourself and like be good toyourself.
And then for every writerseeking publication, there's
this like turning point whereyou finish the creative part and

(01:06:42):
then it's like will someonetake this and publish it?
Journey is a whole, completelydifferent set of circumstances
and one that I think requires aperson to dig into a strength at
a very deep level.
Will you talk a little bitabout that and kind of that very

(01:07:07):
the two worlds you have to kindof travel in as a writer, going
from, like, the creative to thepublication process?

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Absolutely that has been.
Um, you know, if the past likesix years of my life were a book
, that would be like the mainstory arc is me like moving
through this and, um, mycharacter development would very
much be around, um, around howI relate to my writing and
publishing and how that is, youknow, separate and how it's not

(01:07:38):
One of my.
So the first book that I wentout with the publishers so we
don't have to get into the nittygritty of it.
But basically, you know, myagent will send my book out to
publishers who might beinterested and then there's kind
of like a whole processinternally within the publishing
house of like multiple steps ifthey're interested.
The first book was another youngadult book and it almost sold.

(01:08:04):
It got like the very closest itcould get to selling without it
actually selling.
And, um, I yeah, I did not dothat the whole week that I knew
that, um, these meetings werehappening, I literally got hives
all over my body.
I had to like put on Bob Rossto like calm myself down and

(01:08:27):
watch like multiple episodes ofBob Ross, um, and watch him like
paint and be very calm.
You know, I I had a very hardtime after, um, that book
ultimately got rejected and mytherapist at the time actually
said like you are likelegitimately going through a
grieving process right now andyou have to like, let yourself,

(01:08:50):
you yourself, you know, um,treat it like that.
That process is hard, no matterwhere you're at mentally, I
think, but part of what made itjust excruciating for me was
that, like, to me, that book waslike a part of myself that was
still like attached to me, itwas like an organ of mine or

(01:09:10):
something and like, by rejectingit, I felt like I was getting
rejected again and um, you know,I have some very deep wounds
about that and, um, I, I justhad this feeling like, okay, it
wasn't good enough, there wassomething I needed to do
differently or a way I needed tothink differently or something

(01:09:32):
that I needed to do differentand kind of wasn't really
allowing myself to accept that.
You know, it's not all in mycontrol, and something that's
really helped me with that iskind of befriending other
writers and reading theirunpublished work and seeing all
this amazing work that gothrough the same process that

(01:09:55):
mine did right, like eventuallydidn't get picked up.
And it's also infuriating,because I like fall in love with
these books, that I so wantthem to be real and out in the
world and I'm like what the hellare these people doing?
Why can't they see how amazingthis is?
Yeah, so it's kind of like insome ways I have the opposite
journey of my character, lily,who had to kind of like realize

(01:10:18):
that all these parts of her werelike the same thing and for me
I kind of had to take somerealize that like my work is a
part of me but I am not my work.
And when my work gets passed on, it's not somebody telling me
I'm not a good enough human,it's just, you know, business

(01:10:40):
decisions about like numbercrunching or you know whatever
they do in those locked rooms.
I feel like for a long time Iknew I needed to get to that
place of detachment, but it wasvery hard for me to actually get
there.
It was like a journey of yearsand you know it's never going to
be perfect, but I feel like Ikind of finally had this tower
moment last year where I waslike I like cannot do this

(01:11:04):
anymore, I cannot go on likethis, but I uh realize I still,
you know, writing is always whatI have loved to do and, um, I
didn't want to give up trying.
So what really needed to happenis like I needed to kind of
like move around some Jengablocks within my own mind and
kind of collapse this structureof how I thought about my

(01:11:27):
writing and publication.
And, um, so I, I was veryheavily raised on Disney movies
and a very common theme inDisney movies it's like you have
one dream in your life and yourlife is fulfilled when you um
achieve that dream.
And for a long time I was likegetting a book published is my
dream.
It's my big like shiny Disneystar in the sky that I need to

(01:11:49):
like grasp onto.
And part of the work I did waskind of realizing my life around
the book in writing.
And you know how writing a bookis just part of my life and
hopefully, you know, gettingpublished one day will just be

(01:12:09):
part of my life.
But there is so much else aboutme, um, so many other rich
experiences that are worthliving for.
And life isn't some video gamewhere there's just one end goal
that you're trying to get to asfast as you can.
Um, so, yeah, I, you know I'mstill working on it in some ways

(01:12:32):
, but um seeing myself in mywork and the industry of
publishing as three veryseparate things was very
instrumental for me and likehealing this wound I had around
feeling like I was beingpersonally rejected all the time
.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
Yeah, I love that contrast you make between Lily
and her discovery and the waythat you had to go about it for
yourself, and I think that issuch an important like framework
or perspective to adopt that,for one thing, disney movies I
don't think are doing anyone anyfavors, other than they're
lovely and entertaining and goodstories yes, but yeah, they

(01:13:24):
sort of hinge on a very narrowdefinition of multiple kinds of
things.
And yeah, I think we have thisidea that, like we have one
purpose in life and we need tofigure out what it is, and then
we need to like do a bunch ofthings, like really hard things,

(01:13:46):
to sort of actualize thatpurpose, and I do think having a
purposeful life is reallyimportant.
I also think our purposes canshift, or our sense of purpose,
let's say but yeah, like what?
I think that's what's just sucha beat down for writers, but
also all kinds of creativepeople, is that there's no part

(01:14:09):
of it's so hard to have acreative experience that is not
influenced by capitalism in someway.
So if you're trying to bepublished with a traditional
publisher, like, you'reabsolutely interacting with a
capitalistic enterprise.
You know art purchasing andbuying has capitalism baked in,

(01:14:31):
unless you're sort of likemaking art at a beautiful picnic
and kind of like exchangingapples for you know, like
paintings or something, or justgiving things away.
Like you have to sort ofconfront this thing that is this

(01:14:52):
institution or the systemthat's very impersonal and
doesn't really care who you Imean kind of cares who you are,
but in a capitalistic way andyeah, but it's hard to suddenly
like make yourself into amachine that can relate to
capitalism without beingaffected by it and be like, oh

(01:15:14):
well, that's just business, Idon't care, you know, because
you put in hundreds of hours ofwork.
But I love what you're talkingabout in terms of expanding your
view that, like you make booksbecause you love them and there
will hopefully be a time whenthey are published, and I'm one

(01:15:38):
of those people like readingyour books, like this book needs
to exist somebody and if you'relistening out there, if you're
an agent or a publisher, callMadeline.
It's really good.
Um, but yeah, the sense that,like you're going to do it
because you love it and you'regoing to continue to pursue this

(01:15:59):
dream, but that you can't letyourself be wrecked by decisions
that have like to do with, yeah, data and the market and profit
and loss statements and howmuch is sitting in a warehouse
and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Definitely, and it was kind of another area where I
had to put up some more liketangible boundaries in order to,
like, make these distinctionsin my head.
It used to be that, like Iwould ask my agent to see what
every single um editor orpublishing house had said when

(01:16:37):
they passed on my book and thenotes they gave.
But then I kind of realizedthat, um, it wasn't really
serving me at all and um, so nowI told my agent, like you know,
if there's something you feellike I really should hear you
know, let me know.
But otherwise I just kind ofwant to be in the dark about
what's happening.

(01:16:58):
You know, once the book hasleft my hands, I don't really
want to know what it's doing outthere.
I also removed myself fromTwitter, now known as X, where
there is kind of I don't knowwhat's going on over there
anymore, but for a long time itwas very much like a watering
hole for writers and there was alot of anxiety and a lot of

(01:17:21):
comparison and a lot ofcompetition and a lot of
discourse that I feel like wasnot really serving the community
, but that would still crop upevery now and then.
So it's, you know, part of itwas kind of this mental shift.
But in order for that to happen,I had to put down these more
tangible boundaries of like I amnot going to let myself

(01:17:44):
obsessively read what people youknow didn't connect with in my
book, or you know, I'm not goingto get involved in, you know,
whatever bleak publishing newsthere is today.
Um, and to be clear, I don't, Idon't think you know, um I don't

(01:18:05):
believe in just like turningmyself away from news in general
.
Um, I do think it's important toengage with things happening in
the world, um, even when it'slike very hard to witness them.
Um, I do think it's importantto engage with things happening
in the world, even when it'slike very hard to witness them.
I do think that witnessing is avery important part of being a
human, but I don't think thatwitnessing includes, like paper

(01:18:27):
prices have risen or you knowlittle things like that.
Like I don't need to be in tunewith all those little things
that are going to make me freakout about publishers buying less
books or whatever it's like.
That's Like I don't need to bein tune with all those little
things that are going to make mefreak out about publishers
buying less books or whateverit's like.
That's not.
That's not somewhere my energyneeds to go, so um, and in doing
so, I have freed up a lot moremental space to actually think

(01:18:47):
about my books and my charactersand my stories instead of um,
and my stories instead of havingall these other voices inside
my head.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
Beautiful.
How about we close with anyadvice you would give to someone
who is pulling the strengthcard?

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
Ooh, yes, that's a good question.
You know, in all this talk ofbeing gentle with ourselves, I
know I have been on this journeywhere I it's like it's so funny
to think about it from adistance, but like even getting

(01:19:32):
there is a journey.
So, you know, don't put thatpressure on yourself to pull the
strength card and justimmediately love everything
about yourself.
You know, for me this has beena years-long journey and it will

(01:19:58):
probably continue my entirelife.
Strength card something you cando, if it feels right, is kind
of just kind of listen to anythoughts that come up in your
head and maybe try to trace themback.
Where are they coming from?
You know, what are they reallytrying to tell me?
And like, maybe you can evenremember, like the cat that I
thought was attacking me, thatwas actually giving me a hug,
and you know giving me a hug and, um, you know, even if you

(01:20:21):
can't get to a positive placewith it, that is totally fine.
You know, not every reading isgoing to be some revelation, but
if you see the strength card,just kind of you know, if you
can just nudge yourself in thedirection of, like I want to
befriend myself or I willbefriend myself one day, even if
it's not today.
Just kind of keeping that inmind as something there that you

(01:20:44):
can get to.
And I know it's hard to believeI.
You know there are points in mylife where I would have thought
like I'm never gonna be my ownfriend.
But here I am.
So you know, no matter howyou're feeling when you pull the
card, try to keep some opennessabout you know your eventual

(01:21:05):
relationship with self, even ifyour current one is not not
feeling exactly cuddly at themoment.

Speaker 1 (01:21:14):
Yeah, I love that and it's making me just think of
that, the touch that she givesthe lion, like it's not a whole
like spooning situation or butlike how can you sort of tend to
yourself or give yourself somekind of gentle caress to sort of

(01:21:39):
take off any of the frostiness?
Yeah, where's which part of youis the lion that needs a little
bit of love today?

(01:22:00):
Yes, absolutely, madeline,thank you so much for having
this conversation with me andeverything that you shared.
I think your story, yourwriting, the things that you're
working through are reallypowerful medicine for people and
I'm just really grateful thatyou're part of the typewriter

(01:22:21):
tarot ecosphere and it's it justmeans a lot to voice these
thoughts and for you,encouraging me to go up to the
lion, even though other peoplethink it's bonkers.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
So thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
My pleasure.
I want to offer deep, heartfeltthanks to Madeline for coming

(01:23:08):
on the show and sharing all thatshe did in this conversation,
both being vulnerable andexhibiting and sharing her
strength with us and her wisdom,her sense of humor.
I hope that this exploration ofthe strength card is opening a

(01:23:29):
new portal or two for you, maybesoftening a couple new places
in your body.
Maybe you're feeling littlewell, springs of love inside you
open up, spill out, pour forthto new parts of you.
You'll find more informationabout where you can connect with

(01:23:53):
Madeline in the show notes, andyou'll also find a link to her
piece about working with theswords, which, again, I highly
recommend you check it out.
I also want to thank Chantal DeFelice for creating the
beautiful sounds for this showand also for editing this
episode, and thanks to Ami Plasfor creating our logo.

(01:24:17):
You can find links to both ofthem in the show notes as well.
And then, thank you.
Thank you to you for listening,for being here, for coming on
the journey.
If you've found me orTypewriter Tarot through this
podcast and this is serving youin some way If you like what's

(01:24:39):
going on here, I want to inviteyou into the Typewriter Tarot
Garden, where you will findworkshops, classes, tarot
readings, a beautiful blog spacethat has personal essays about
creativity and divination, aswell as our monthly tarot scopes

(01:25:01):
.
If you sign up for ournewsletter, you will get the
tarot scopes in your inbox everymonth and then, as Madeline
discussed in this episode, Ialso offer one-on-one support,
where I help folks nourish,nurture and reframe their

(01:25:21):
relationship to creativity andspirituality, and sometimes
business.
I have come to know, boththrough personal experience and
through the work that I do, thathaving a healthy relationship
to creativity and spiritualitywhich for me, the two things are
connected.

(01:25:41):
I think creativity is aspiritual energy and I think
it's one way for us to have aconcept of our own spirituality.
I'm not saying they're exactlythe same thing.
I don't know, it's still amystery to me but developing
that relationship that you wantto have with creativity requires

(01:26:04):
doing some of the work of thestrength card and really looking
at what's holding us back.
What have we internalized fromour parents, from being in the
workforce, from living inside ofcapitalism, from living in a
country that does not do a verygood job, caring for the many

(01:26:29):
communities that are part of thefabric of our society All of
that is impactful.
It takes its toll, and we'renot encouraged to just have a
flourishing relationship withcreativity.
So if you're struggling with it, it's no wonder why and so many
people do and I think thathaving a relationship with

(01:26:52):
creativity that feels open-ended, that feels flexible, that
feels exciting, that feelsnourishing, can really change
our quality of life sotremendously.
So that's why it's important forme to help folks make their way
in that direction, and I dothat from the perspective of my

(01:27:15):
work as a tarot reader, someonewho's been piecing together a
spiritual framework for myselfthat works for me and that
continues to grow and evolve andhave new layers and facets, and
also as someone who is a doubleCapricorn with a Taurus rising,

(01:27:35):
and who is very grounded in thereal world.
I like to look at the biggervision that's a Capricorn kind
of thing and I like to breakthose big visions down into
smaller pieces and help myselfand other people or whoever may
want it kind of move forward ina way that feels accessible and

(01:27:58):
practical.
This isn't just about talkingabout abstract spirituality, but
also how do we live that downhere on earth, in our homes,
with our families, with ourfriends, with our jobs, all of
that.
So if you're ever interested inexploring that kind of work,

(01:28:19):
you can go to typewritertarotcom.
You'll see the coaching pageand I offer free curiosity calls
so you can set one up and wecan have a chat.
I'd love to talk to you.
Thank you again for being hereand for listening.
I'm sending you lots of magicand creativity and I'll talk to

(01:28:43):
you next time.
Thank you.