THE STAR: Naked in the Water w/ Chantal de Felice

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello and welcome to your Creative and Magical Life,
which is hopefully your actuallife.
But is also this podcast a showthat explores how tarot,
divination and spirituality canhelp us live a life that
sparkles with magic andcreativity?
I'm your host, cecily Saylor.
Let's make some magic.

(00:31):
Hello, creative spirits,Welcome to another episode of
your Creative and Magical Life.

(00:51):
This is a special episodebecause it's a beautiful sounds
that you hear in the episode.
When I give the episodes to beedited, you know sometimes I do

(01:15):
those like straight, just metalking, and I don't put the
beautiful music in because I'm alittle bit lazy and overwhelmed
by the technology.
But this amazing human who madethe music is also the amazing
human who edits some of ourepisodes and really made it
possible for me to launch thispodcast in a way that felt like

(01:37):
aligned with the vision thedreamy little vision I had for
it.
And since I started thinkingabout how the podcast would
progress and how we might movethrough the archetypes of the
major arcana and have theseconversations, chantal de Felice

(01:58):
was always on my mind for thestar.
I don't get to spend time withher in person much, but I get to
watch from afar her travels andtravails and the art she makes
and the way that she interactswith the world.
You know, I get someimpressions from watching her

(02:19):
social media feed and I thinkand I've gotten to know Chantal
a little bit and some of herstory over the last few years
that also feel really resonantwith the star.
So I'm really excited for y'allto hear from Chantal and learn
about her and her work.
I will introduce her a littlemore formally and then we'll

(02:41):
dive in.
Chantal de Felice is a wanderer,a flanus in the city, a
barefoot child in the forest, aselkie in the sea.
She gathers field recordings,still pictures and moving images
as she wanders, transmutingthese collections into studious

(03:02):
ink drawings, colorful paintingson wood, sonic landscapes and
ephemeral video collages.
In her live performances, soundand video are layered, then
manipulated in real time,amplified and beamed onto large
surfaces.
Over the last 20 years Chantalhas shown her paintings in

(03:22):
galleries, sold her handmadeearrings at craft markets and in
shops.
They're really beautiful.
I need to get a pair.
She has performed heraudiovisual pieces on stage,
given artist talks in schools,curated group shows with other
artists and much, much more.
Chantal, I'm so glad to havethis conversation with you.

(03:43):
Welcome on to the show frombehind the curtain.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Thank you so much for having me.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation for about a
year, since you first invited me, and it really is so fun to be
on this side of the production,because I've gotten to listen to
every interview in its raw formand it's just, yeah, so happy

(04:13):
to be here.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yay, long awaited for me as well.
So we're going to talk aboutthe Star and maybe we can just
start there really quick ormaybe not really quick.
We're not in a rush and, as youknow, these episodes can be
long.
But let's talk about the star alittle bit and then we'll dive

(04:38):
into other things.
And you brought a version ofthe card from the Evanest deck
by Kenyatta AC Hinkle, who is afriend of yours.
I think I've seen this deck insome of your posts.
Really beautiful.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
A really gorgeous, really powerful deck.
You can see here all the cardshave gold-dipped edges and the
artwork is all of Kenyatta'soriginal drawings using brushes
made from naturally foragedmaterials branches, leaves.

(05:21):
I actually read a bit from theto remind myself from the
guidebook today.
She describes her process andsound is a big part of it.
So the Evan Nest is a.
It's an ongoing exhibition thatKenyatta has created, but it's

(05:45):
basically channeling theenergies, the attitudes of
disappeared and murdered women,black women inclusive.
Black women inclusive uh, useof the word women and these

(06:09):
drawings really every single oneof them you can just feel like
a whole unique spirit comingthrough, uh.
But so kenyatta utilizes umsound as she's creating them and
that's also part of the tarotdeck as well Sonic
recommendations with each card,songs to listen to and lyrics as

(06:34):
mantras.
So it's a really powerful deckand the star card I thought the
best.
Kenyatta has a description thatshe wrote of the image.
Let's see I can see it here Aprofile of a woman, and again

(06:56):
she describes at the beginning.
She uses the spelling W-O-M-X-Nthroughout this book, so I'll
just say when I say woman, it'sinclusive.
A profile of a woman from thewaist up wearing a cobalt blue
turban stretching her arm out,bent at the wrist.
Floating up from her wrist areseveral wisps of smoke that

(07:19):
appear to be allowing anotherbeing to materialize.
She looks up with a slightsmile at her channeling slash
manifestation.
There appears to be three starsthat make up a constellation of
the woman's body.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, beautiful Like looks like an ink drawing just
line, mostly except for thatblue turban and the actions
mostly happening, like in thelower half of the card and the

(07:56):
figures kind of like leaned back, um, almost like like I'm
thinking of like rearing back ina way, as like that arm is out
stretched, yeah, and the starskind of create these from here.

(08:16):
They look like littledisturbances or something on the
body.
Yeah, because they almost seemto sort of like interact with
the flesh a little bit, which isalso making me think like we're
all made of stardust kind ofthing, which I think is probably
a true message for the starcard.

(08:38):
And then this channeling of thesmoke, and then this channeling
of the smoke, thismanifestation of another, being
very cool.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
What do you see or how do you personally connect
with that image when you see it,and the idea of channeling and
manifestation and I'm such adream supporter for my own self
and for others and you know thisidea of envisioning as an

(09:16):
artist, envisioning things thatdon't exist.
But also, when you say stardust, you know calling into this
ancestral, actual physicality,like in our bodies.
And I always say you'll hear meas we get into the interview
that when I talk about my momdying, I actually usually say

(09:41):
her return to Stardust.
I would usually say her returnto Stardust.
And so, yeah, it's somethingabout this smoke in the card

(10:02):
suggests a lot of that etherealnature of manifestation and
calling in ancestors to support.
And yeah, I actually be whenwhen I'm preparing for this.
So just to tell you a little bit, when you first asked me if I
would like to be interviewed forthe Star Card and I looked at
the Modern Witch deck, which I'dbeen using for a while, and
like, oh, yeah, that's me Likethe naked, the water out in

(10:27):
nature, and I didn't even go toomuch further into it at that
time.
And then recently I was readingabout the I like to look up the
Biddy Tarot descriptions, and Isaw so many more things that
related to my journey in theselast four years that we'll talk

(10:49):
about uh having to do with, youknow, discovering uh more of
your true self and going throughthese exercises, through the
chakras and and um, what theyrepresent and the psychology,
and so, anyways, this card justcouldn't be more relevant to

(11:12):
what?
To what I've seen as my recentexperience.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
So yeah, so just to reference also that kind of
traditional quote unquote imageof the star, you'll you know,
many people probably wouldrecognize this, but you'll see
usually a nude, usually femme,female figure kneeling in this

(11:42):
natural space and there's a pool.
They usually have one foot inthe pool and they're pouring
from two vessels, pouring waterfrom two vessels.
One of the vessels will pourinto the pool of water and one
is being poured onto the land,but then that water is like
running back into the pool ofwater and that pool of water can

(12:07):
represent the unconscious, thesubconscious, the intuitive,
knowing.
You know dreams and, I think,some things that are interesting
about this card.
You'll also see eight largestars overhead.
There's one like gigantic starin the sky and then this ring of

(12:29):
stars, this ring of six stars,and one additional smaller star
with those other six for thetotal of seven, and that's
probably the reference to theseven chakras, and there's kind
of like a mountain in thebackground and a tree that has
an ibis in it, and the ibis is asacred bird going back to

(12:52):
Egyptian times, but also aliving bird that has many
different species.
I actually wrote a whole essayabout the star and the ibis and
the magic of birds for the rebus, um, in their star issue, if
anyone wants to check that out.
But yeah, a really beautifulcard and one thing I think is
remarkable about this one islike there's no man-made other

(13:15):
than the vessels, the cups.
There's nothing that'sconstructed by humans in the
card.
There's no throne, there's no,there's no, like it's all a
natural space.
And this card follows the tower, which is really about like a
man-made, a human-madeconstructed edifice or a system

(13:39):
or dynamic or whatever thatcomes down and leaving a lot of
space for this like naturalemergence, for this
recalibration and this balancingand this reharmonizing.
And it's like once thatcontainer, that tower, that

(13:59):
fixture in our lives isdismantled for whatever reason
which doesn't always mean thatit was like a bad fixture, but
just like you know, it's beenthere for a while.
But when that is gone or removedor changes or withers as the
cycle of life will, you know,always inevitably bring change

(14:23):
then there's this, yeah, room orthis like opportunity to sort
of rediscover who we are like.
Who am I now, who can I be inthe absence of this thing, this
tower, let's say, coming down?
So that's just a little bitmore about the card and and
maybe thinking about the towerand the star, chantal, how do

(14:47):
you see, like, where was thatmoment for you?
I think you've alreadymentioned it, but maybe would
you talk a little bit more aboutthat part of the story before
we get into the kind of likestar part, the finding oneself
again part part, the findingoneself again part.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, definitely, as you were describing that, I was
sort of overlaying my personalstory onto it.
So I always start out with thissentence, you know, when I'm
telling people kind of where I'mat in life, that I was a
caregiver for my mom for 20years, and that word is so

(15:29):
insufficient, I I find that youknow people who get it, get it
right, uh, uh.
But I do wish that we had amore expansive word to describe
what that actually means to beresponsible for someone's life,

(15:51):
but in in a totally differentway than than a parent, uh, and
a child.
You know me being a childcaregiver of a parent.
I, uh, my mom, started tobecome paranoid and delusional

(16:11):
when I was a teenager and it wasa long crumbling in itself over
these 20 years.
Over these 20 years, but evenbefore that, you know, I had
been the daughter of a singlemother and I think a lot of,

(16:38):
especially an only child of asingle parent, understand I was
helping her with everythingaround the house.
We were a team and also she wasa childlike fairy herself, um,
so I took on a lot of thoseresponsibilities early on, even
before um, her, her mentalillness.
So, but this as this, like yousaid this, this, this 20 years

(17:02):
of caregiving, I mean what?
It went through differentphases, uh, there was a long
time with psychosis, uh, and Iwas the primary person that she
interacted with, I was the onlyperson that she trusted.
For all of that time I wasresponsible for every piece of

(17:23):
food that went into her mouth,every piece of clothing that she
wore.
She didn't live with me, whichwas an absolute blessing that I
was able to receive enough help,but she lived a couple blocks
from me for almost all of thattime and showed up at my house

(17:46):
and called 50 or 60 times a dayand would show up and not leave.
And there were these elementswhere, when I say caregiving, it
sounds like so soft.
But I was, you know, in tormentfor a long time.
When I was younger, I thought,when I was in my 20s, I thought,
you know, the mom that I grewup with, who was a magical,

(18:08):
creative fairy, is dead.
In my mind, you know, I waslike that person has been
replaced by this scary,controlling, psychotic entity,
psychotic entity, um, but thenshe, she at some point sort of
transitioned into a more, uh,like a, like a more again to use

(18:42):
the word childlike uh phase,and she was sweeter and funnier
again and um, but at that timeshe was still very much living
in her own reality.
So I, over these years,developed all the survival
strategies that uh that we doand I.
I think that that length oftime also makes it really hard

(19:08):
to summarize what it was like,but basically, I couldn't have
my own life.
I couldn't go where I wanted togo.
Traveling was very fraught.
She didn't want me to leave thecity, you know, and so I had to

(19:30):
maneuver a lot around that Um,so when it came to she, um did
decline and then uh returned toStardust in uh, may of 2020,
which was a whole other story initself.
She was in a care facility onlockdown, so I wasn't able to be

(19:53):
there, which was very strangeafter 20 years of caring for her
physical form so intensely, um.

(20:14):
But as you said, when thathappened, I, the morning we, you
know, I got the call from thecare facility Um a I.
My instant visual was of mymom's spirit tearing across the
planes of infinity like a wildMustang, like that freedom that
we wish for.
Uh, someone's spirit who hasbeen ill, like that was my first
visualization, like, just likeshe was so willful and such a

(20:37):
just.
She's a legend.
You know, I do want to talkabout her, her incredible, uh,
artist spirit, you know.
But, um, the next thought wasthat I thought I was stuck in
this thing forever.
So when you talk about the, thetower, as being this thing,
that's there, I really thoughtshe was never going to fucking

(21:00):
die, you know, and um, andstrangely enough, we were in
quarantine so I couldn't jet outright when it happened, I had a
year of processing, but then,you know, when I was able to

(21:22):
start to seek my own life, ithad all these aspects of this
star renewal.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, yeah, wow, thank you for sharing all of
that.
And thank you for sharing thatso honestly, like I think, as
you're describing it, I reallystart to feel a little bit what
you mean about caregiving beingtoo limiting a word.

(21:54):
Um, I'm also an only child andmy dad now lives close to me and
he's his abilities are becomingmore limited.
He's now basically homebound.
So you know I do things for himbut he's also like a pretty

(22:17):
it's kind of a chill caregivingsituation for the moment and I
feel really blessed by that.
And, yeah, you know, part of itis their, like some of their
illusions and fears and all ofthat on you and you being the

(22:52):
only child who can like navigatethat and who must seemingly
navigate that Cause you're sortof in this position of like I
guess you could run away, butwhen we have like values and
integrity and love, like thatfeels totally impossible.
Yeah, so it's not just likemanaging some money and like the

(23:15):
material stuff or the medicalstuff, but also like moving and
navigating through your mother'spsychological space like for so
long.
20 years is a really long time.
And, uh, it sounds like youreally like you started really
early.
You know I started caring formy dad, like maybe five or six

(23:38):
years, like in my forties, youknow, and so like a lot of your
youth and your like younger kindof development and sort of like
comeuppance in the world wasreally defined by this.
So, um, yeah, what likestrength you had to develop and,
um, I'm curious, like how youmanaged to care for yourself

(24:01):
through that.
That's maybe like a whole booklength story, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
That really is.
That really is, uh, so muchthere.
I I think the timing.
What you're talking about isthe timing.
Is everything right that I shewas starting to to become unable
to care for herself when I wasa teenager.
But I didn't.

(24:28):
It wasn't complete, and so Iwas able to go to college for a
year and then she basicallycollapsed and it was apparent
that she could not care forherself in the most most basic

(24:48):
ways, and so I was snapped back.
You know, it was like I startedmy my adolescent uh, you know
what do you call it when you setout away from your parents and
you're, you're okay, I'm goingto go make my life.
And I was an artist, I wascraving, I wanted to be a city
girl, I wanted to go to collegein the far-flung lands, like you

(25:09):
know, and but I was snappedback and I think that became it
was so excruciating in mytwenties and I drank through it.
All my friends were drinking,obviously, you know, or not
obviously, but we were in asmall town and that definitely

(25:30):
was a really unhealthy copingmechanism.
But I'm surprised I didn't doworse.
I mean, she was.
What happened was I developedthe things like freeze, fawn,

(25:52):
acquiesce.
Her willpower was so strongthat I had to.
You know, whenever I tried tostand up to it, it just it drove
me, you know, up the wall, so.
So I had to learn to uh littlelike shape-shifting or kind of
like performing sometimes.

(26:15):
And and her, um, you know, shewould do these like really long.
Um, it was like a long loopthat she had to complete to tell
me this delusional thing and ifI interrupted the loop it would
just prolong it.
So I would go into this stateof just.
I thought I was developing thisbeautiful like Zen, patience,

(26:38):
resilience.
I was like this is mysuperpower.
And since I've been on thisrecovery, healing path, I'm like
, oh no, that was freeze and Iwas denying my, I was completely
denying my body messages likewhether I needed to, you know,

(26:58):
get up and walk away or go pee,or drink water, eat food that
was a big thing.
Instead, I just froze and lether finish the loop.
Sometimes it would take hoursand so so, yeah, I I when I go,
when I think about what I woulddo differently, I mean I don't

(27:20):
even know this was in the timethis was happening, you know,
starting to happen reallydramatically in 1999.
Like, I was using a phone bookto try to find resources, like I
didn't know anyone else who wasgoing through this.
Actually, you know, outside ofmy family, I thought I was so

(27:40):
alone, I was ashamed of her.
When I took her in public, Iwas scared of the police.
We had some interactions a fewtimes.
I was very scared of theintolerance for mental illness.
We lived in, again, a smallconservative town where there
were three notable homelesscharacters that people knew Like

(28:04):
my mom stood out, notablehomeless characters that people
knew like my mom stood out, andso, yeah, just the shame and all
of that.
I think it it was.
That was also of its time.
You know how I went through theexperience and how, how, what

(28:29):
difficulties there were in it.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, I, yeah, it is.
There's so many additionalconstraints, not only like the
circumstances of like yourfamily or you being the only
child and your mom's specificsituation and condition, but
also, yeah, the setting and likewhat's available and public
services and support andpeople's outlook.

(28:54):
And yeah, it just like you knowit, just like it feels
astonishing and overwhelminglike the amount of like calculus
you had to probably runconstantly to to navigate this.
And, yeah, I think it makessense that, like how would you
know how to like really care foryourself, especially when

(29:14):
there's, like you're the onlyperson that you know facing
something like this and, um,yeah, really having to face it
alone or and not, I'm sure,wanting to like quote, unquote
like drag other people into, um,into the situation, um, so I

(29:35):
just want to send you a lot oflike love and appreciation for
your strength and resilience and, um, the love I'm sure you had
to like conjure to continue andand keep caring for her over
that period and so, but thenthat period did end and like

(30:01):
breath of fresh air, I canimagine suddenly you're like,
what the fuck do I do with likethe fact that I don't have to do
this anymore.
And yeah, and then you reallylike went out there, you're like
bye At some point, not too far,not too much later.

(30:22):
I remember meeting you not toolong after she had passed and I
think you know, as part of areading, because we have a
mutual friend and um, yeah, but,but you were preparing at that
point to like set out, and sowhat came next for?

Speaker 2 (30:46):
you, oh, yeah.
So one beautiful thing I haveto share is that.
So when I do want to talk moreabout this later, but I have
been a journaler since I was 12,and not consistently, uh, but
at some point in my twenties Ihad my mom's things and there

(31:07):
was this box I found of herjournals from the seventies and
from around the time I was born.
And I found the box.
I called my aunt.
I said, oh my God, I foundthese journals and my mom's.
I'm going to go home and get abottle of whiskey and read them.
And my aunt said, stop, yourmom is still alive.

(31:27):
Those are her private thoughts.
You need to respect that.
Think about this.
So I said, you know, yeah, okay, yeah, you're right.
And I put the journals away.
So when my mom died, years andyears later, I said, oh, the
journals, so I was in quarantine.
I said, oh, the journals, so Iwas in quarantine.
And that summer I very slowlygot one spiral bound notebook at

(31:52):
a time and started to read,read my mom's poetry about
nature and her delight in theworld, but also her
investigations intoconsciousness and different
religions and spiritualities andher interest in learning about

(32:12):
people.
And that was the first step ofthis layer of healing right.
So I, in quarantine, read mymom's journals and I swam in the
ocean I was living close enoughwhere I could walk to the ocean
and swim and started to buildup momentum and bravery.

(32:36):
And then it was literally, yousent a, a newsletter with an
in-bulk spread.
A newsletter with an in-bulkspread.
This was in February of 2021,so almost a year after, uh, and
I can't remember the specificsof the spread, but I remember

(32:57):
the first card I drew was theeight of cups, and in the modern
witch deck it's this littlefigure, you know, with its back
towards the viewer, a littlebackpack on, and it's setting
out towards the mountains.
And I saw that image and I saidit's time.
And literally that was themoment, like the you know, the

(33:19):
time had been coming for me toleave, but but that moment I
looked at it okay, it's time'stime.
So I, within a few days, gavenotice on my studio that I had
had for six years this beautifullittle bubble of art and
science and books and shells andfossils and plants that I had

(33:41):
created.
That was my sanctuary.
And so I gave notice and I, youknow, gave away my plants to
friends and packed, packed allmy things up into storage, I
sold my car and I left myhometown, you know, which I'd
been in again for over 20 years,and I had this really exuberant

(34:06):
feeling like I'm going to goexplore, I'm going to wander, I
want to learn how to make adecision of what's next.
Once I hit the fork in the road, like I wanted to be living in
the present and trust that Icould make the decisions as I go
, the decisions as I go, and Iset out and almost instantly I

(34:34):
felt like the slap back of theuniverse.
And the slap was that I wassetting out as a maiden with a
lot of fresh eyed kind of.
You know I'd been throughtraumas but I still had this
like sort of small town naivete,you know, and also no

(34:54):
boundaries.
I didn't know what a fuckingboundary was.
I literally did not know whatit meant.
And you know, one of the firstexperiences I remember I was in
New York City.
That's where I had gone firstand I remember this guy came and
sat and talked to me in thepark and I was interested in his
story.
I'm so interested in people'sstories who are so different

(35:17):
from me but he kept kind ofscooting and like putting his
grubby, crusty foot on myblanket and I remember I would
say, oh hey, hey, sorry, can you, you know?
And kind of like gently gesture, and he would kind of scoot it
back and we'd talk and he'd endup on my blanket again and I

(35:38):
just kept letting it happen.
And when I look at that momentnow I'm like, oh my God, I can't
believe you know, I was alittle red riding hood.
I can't believe you know I wasa little red riding hood.
I can't believe I didn't geteaten by wolves.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
It's interesting, the eight of cups came to you, this
card of departure, and likegoing out in search of something
more, something greater, withthe real like belief and
understanding that, like, whatyou're seeking isn't where you
are.
Like the current conditions andsituation may be like fine,

(36:14):
like your beautiful sanctuary,like you had all your like tools
and bits of objects ofinspiration, all your art, all
of that, bits of objects ofinspiration, all your art, all
of that, but the sense that,like, my growth probably will be
limited.
Nevertheless, if I stay hereand I don't know exactly where

(36:35):
to go to like find, I may noteven know exactly what I'm
seeking.
So I definitely don't know,like where it's located.
But if it's not here and I feelpretty sure about that, like I
have to go out there to look forit.
And so, yeah, it makes sensethat kind of stripped of the
situation with your mother,which was such a codependent

(37:00):
situation, with someone relyingon you for like everything, and
having to step into that dynamicor that position of caregiving
like way before you reallyshould be taking on that
responsibility.
And while you're still in this,like such a formative space as

(37:23):
a young person, and so this,like such a formative space as a
young person and so, yeah, likeyour main relationship was with
your mother by necessity, andshe had no boundaries.
It sounds like with you, um, orno sense of like what your
boundaries might be, asevidenced by that story.
Oh, poor Chantal just having tolike go to the bathroom and

(37:44):
listen to these like ravings.
So, yeah, then you get out inthe world and, like, you still
have these patterns and nowthey're kind of being like
brought into relief throughthese interactions with like the
other, with other people, withthe rest of the world.
But with the rest of the worldand there's so much healing from

(38:11):
you know that experience, notonly the grief but like all the
kind of like, baggage, that andchallenge that came with it.
And I know you know your art,the art that you make feels so
healing to look at, whether it'slike a pair of earrings or a
painting you're doing or, um,you know a lot of I've like,

(38:36):
once you set out, I would seeyou on Instagram like with a
little microphone, like out inthe waves or like holding a
little microphone up to like atree or moss or something.
And I'm like that in the waves,or like holding a little
microphone up to like a tree orsome moss or something and I'm
like that is so fucking cool,but just these really like kind
of unconventional.

(38:57):
You know, I guess like paintingisn't that unconventional, but
within the like conventionalityof some of your artistic
practices, like also this, likenot just keeping it in the
studio and having an interactionwith living things as part of
your creative process, I'm kindof like jumping, I guess what

(39:20):
I'm.
What I'm getting at is like italso see, since your art feels
so healing to witness orexperience, I hope that it feels
healing to create.
And, yeah, like what happened,you know, as you said in some of
your notes before we had thisconversation like being a

(39:41):
tumbleweed for four years, andso I'm curious about that like
constantly having to sort oflike find a new location, choose
where you want to go next, stayspontaneous but feel a sense of
security, make your art, havethese like encounters, be in
unfamiliar spaces and be healingfrom this big thing.

(40:05):
So it's such a huge question.
What is to be said about that?
What comes up for you as youthink about that?
Now?

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, I mean, the first thought is the word
challenge.
It was such a challenge when Iset out, first of all, not
having my studio as an artist,not having my things, my
precious treasures, around me,not having my books, you know, I
it really sent me into, I wouldsay, like an identity crisis.

(40:38):
Or later, when I learned aboutthe heroine's journey, I was
like, oh the the dissent,because I started to doubt, you
know, am I even an artist?
And I started to reallyquestion like why did I
purposely make myself houseless,you know, and post-quarantine,

(40:59):
let's say, inflation, jacked upand rental costs, you know,
short term or otherwise and carsand everything was so expensive
and I was, I didn't have moneyto do this.
I set out um with, you know, Ihad, I had done a couple of big

(41:20):
paintings and I had a fewthousand dollars um which I
spent in New York and then thatwas that.
But so it was reallychallenging.
At first I was doubting myself.
I was very unmoored, ungrounded, and I was staying a lot with

(41:41):
friends and family who I hadn'tseen, you know, sort of like
almost like a funeral tour in away, or like a post quarantine
tour.
But that immediately brought tolight how much my codependent
habits and behaviors were notlimited to my relationship with
my mom, that I had ingrainedthem and and really been

(42:05):
enacting them for years with allof my friends and loved ones,
where I just I, gave, gave, gave.
I stayed at people's houses andwas, you know, the ideal house
guest, while not taking care ofmy own needs and depleting
myself so that first, you know,year or two, definitely a year

(42:25):
or two of being a tumbleweed, Iwas really, um, I, you know, was
still dreaming and andoptimistic, but I was really
depleting myself a lot.
I was traveling too much for mybody, too many short term, um,
you know, jaunts around, andthat was a big thing.

(42:47):
I started to notice, like on acellular level, my body felt
like it was vibrating from, youknow, too much airplane travel,
like going through the air atthat high speed and even driving
road trips, like driving in acar for eight hours a day.
I think the reason we feel sojittery afterwards is really
like all this, like molecularthis is just my own theory, but

(43:07):
like on this molecular level,moving through space that fast,
it's, it's, um, you know, astressor.
I think not having a studiomeant for a while I wasn't

(43:28):
working as much but I was, youknow, trying to gather as much
as I could.
So, like you said, thegathering sounds, gathering
videos as I moved, anddefinitely you know, is a
respite for me.
This beauty in nature I couldfall into a little pile of moss

(43:55):
for hours, tide pools, forgetabout it.
I love the small world's future, uh and.
But I have to say too, Iquestioned a lot if beauty was
enough, right, and if my artworkwas enough because it was

(44:18):
calming and beautiful, like, isit doing enough?
Is it saying enough?
Am I actually making art?
That's important.
Um, I feel differently now, butwe can get to that.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
I feel like the eight of cups sort of like.
Like.
On the one hand, it sounds likesomeone could read this like an
overcorrection, like, oh, I'vebeen kind of like closed in for
so long, so I'm going to likebust out and do like the 180
degree opposite and then beinglike, whoa, what am I doing?

(44:54):
That slap back that you talkedabout.
But it also, with the Eight ofCups, feels like exactly what
you needed to do, like I don'tknow the whole.
It doesn't seem like there wasgoing to be a soft exit to that
situation.

(45:14):
Um yeah, and like the world sortof becomes this testing ground
for the resilience you hadpracticed, even if kind of like
in a dysfunctional nervoussystem state for a lot of it.
But the world becoming thisplace where your resilience

(45:35):
takes on a new form and a placewhere you start to really feel
like, oh, these are some of thelasting impacts of this
experience that I've had andlike I am responsible for
shifting them, even if I'm notresponsible necessarily for
creating them in the first place.

(45:56):
And also I can imagine thenature part like being able to
see so many different,especially someone who loves and
appreciates nature like you do,like being able to really make
contact with the earth in itsmany different like expressions

(46:18):
of its beauty, which issomething we see happening in
the star.
There's like this ritual beingenacted by the figure who's
making an offering to the waterand to the land and becoming
part of, kind of like, the watercycle, basically this like
interlocutor for the water cycle, and how all of these things

(46:42):
are connected.
Like what you experienced withyour mother is going to be
connected with what youexperience in the world.
Having her journals feels likethat also presented this
connection, naturally, that bothof you have to like yeah, like

(47:04):
you know, being attracted tosparkly fairy things and also
exploring spirituality andconsciousness and just being
like, really like being seekersand mystics and artists, and so
that connection, you know, isalso there.
And so, yeah, anything you wantto say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
I was jotting notes while you were saying.
First of all, you were soperceptive.
I love hearing you build onwhat I've just said and that you
really are understanding a lotof things that I'm not actually
saying.
So, first of all, theovercompensation that you
mentioned, where I set out andwas just like gobbling the world

(48:00):
, I really do think that a bigpart of that which I really
understand now was I don't wantto be bitter and I can see at my
age I'm in my mid forties and Iread this, I think in the um
women who ran with the wolvesshe mentions um, there's kind of

(48:24):
a deciding point where you areyou like, am I going to heal my
shit or am I going to be bitterthe rest of my life?
And like I knew that but Idon't know that I would have
been able to put it in thosewords, but I needed to to fill
up this, this pit of despairthat I had walked around with

(48:47):
for years Um, this envy, thisyou know, anytime somebody was
like talking about travel, Iwould ask them questions and you
know I was.
I was interested in curious butalso low level like fuck, like
I wish, I wish.
So low level, like fuck, like Iwish I wish you know, and so so

(49:11):
I do think I did have to gokind of hard, um, at first to to
fill up that space.
But uh, what you're sayingabout the nature and water is
definitely from the get-go ofleaving.
So I had been swimming in theocean daily back in my hometown

(49:32):
and that's where I built up allthis courage, throwing myself
into the waves and shouting intothe waves.
When I first set out bathtubsif there was a bathtub somewhere
, that became a thing.
I felt like Daryl Hannah inSplash.
I would be starting todesiccate and then I'm like, oh,
there became a thing.
I felt like Daryl Hannah inSplash would be like starting to
desiccate and then like, oh,there's a bathtub.
You know whoever's house I'd bestaying at, I'd be like, oh, is

(49:54):
there a bathtub?
Okay, and that's actually sidenote.
Some of the sounds for thepodcast are me playing kalimba
in the bathtub.
You can hear a little splashingand kalimba, because I had this
.
I was carrying around a kalimbaand playing it in the bathtub
as part of my like soothing andgrounding as I was going from
place to place.

(50:14):
So getting into water became athing.
I was definitely searching.
So everywhere I was travelingto which the first year was a
lot of the US, and I actuallydid go pretty early on to the
place I was born, which is righton the California-Oregon border

(50:35):
.
I was conceived there's a stateline highway, that's the border
.
I was conceived in a house onthe California side and, across
the road, born in a house on theOregon side, and I didn't know
that until I went there.
The house has been refurbishedbut it's still there and it was

(50:55):
vacant, and so I was able towander the property and see this
, the creek that my mom you know, I know her and I were baby.
this the Creek that my mom youknow, I know her and I were baby
, I think I was baptized in thatlittle Creek, um, and and then
went to the Lake.
There's a picture of me as atiny, tiny baby.
So the first Lake I ever wentin, I went to it Lily Lake, um,

(51:24):
so it did become this.
Like you know, water floatingmy body and water, um, became a
really big part of my journeyand like part of the healing and
and um and part of the myexperience of place, and for a
long time I was studying thetheme of place in my art because
I was kind of like tethered toone place.

(51:44):
So I did a whole series onmicroscopes, microscopic imagery
, because I was stuck in this, Icouldn't, I couldn't go explore
, but so, okay, my explorationbecame microscopic and so, as I
set out and I was going todifferent new places, um, yeah,
part of that experience becamewhere's the water?

(52:07):
And this is a project I wouldlove to do going forward is how?
Who has access to swimming inclean water?
How can water be rehabilitated?
I really want to know, becauserivers can become healthy again.
Right, we're becoming moreaware of that.
But you know, I want to knowhow that works and talk to

(52:31):
scientists and make art about it.
That helps convey the message,because I think this is one of
these human essential rightsthat we should have is to be
able to put our bodies into anatural body of water, and
that's obviously not currentlyaccessible to everyone.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that and I don't
know you say it so well.
It's like I think you're rightLike that feeling of taking,
like alleviating the weight ofbeing earthbound, is like a gift

(53:10):
that the water gives us and,you know, not only like an
appreciation for what, likewater beings, like experience
and live in and water being justsuch this like mysterious
element.
There are parts of the ocean,many, many parts of the ocean,

(53:32):
that we just like have nofucking idea what's down there,
like it's as unfathomable asspace, but at the same time, you
know, like we're water beings,most of our bodies are comprised
of water and water seeks water.
Like I think there's thisbiological imperative to connect

(53:54):
with water, to hear it, to lookat it, to be submerged in it
from time to time.
And, yeah, we live in a worldnow that's so overdeveloped that
and privatized that likewaterways are, um, very
difficult to access, especiallywhere the ones that are public

(54:16):
are not super well cared for ina lot of places.
Um, yeah, and I think that givesa lot of us, like without even
recognizing it, this sense ofalienation from, like the
fucking planet.
Um, and I, you know, one thingI would see you do is get in the

(54:37):
water naked, as you mentioned,like you would show us
everything in your Instagrampost, but uh, week, you know,
you would confess or mentionthat.
It's like you know thisunmediated experience with the
body and the water and likearchetypally, in the tarot and
in many other places, the wateris intuition, is the

(54:59):
subconscious, and so I wonder if, like those encounters with
water, and also it's atwo-parter, like, what does it
mean for you to be naked in thewater, and especially as a woman
, and what does it mean?
Did these experiences, youthink, like, enhance your
connection with your intuition?

Speaker 2 (55:20):
um, yeah, so, yeah, I think before I wouldn't, I
didn't understand, like, theconnection between water and
intuition.
Um, I wouldn't.
Before this tumbleweed time Idon't think I would have really
understood that.
But what it makes me think ofis that a fundamental thing that

(55:44):
has come about as part of thishealing adventure is connection
to my senses, right and andreally starting to learn to
listen, and it's been a slowprocess to listen to the
messages that my senses aretelling me.

(56:07):
And swimming in water, floatingin water, is a big part of that,
but it's also a big part of thelike this rest, right.
So I'm spending a lot of timeon land trying to learn how to,
you know, pick up cues andlisten to things and eat
properly and just take care ofmy needs, right.

(56:31):
Identifying needs that was abig thing, right.
I was like, oh, I need to learnhow to do that.
I don't know, I really don'tknow.
And identifying needs starts atlistening to your body, right,
and then enacting on the needs.
So that's hard work when youhaven't done it for a long time.

(56:51):
It's building up these musclesand now that I'm saying it out
loud, you know, I guess thefloating in the water I love I
jotted it down, alleviating theweight of being earthbound.
And part of that is if I'm in asafe place, which a lot of
times it's like if I can sneakinto some nature place alone.

(57:12):
Especially in the US,toplessness is not, you know, as
free as it is in some otherplaces, but if I'm alone and I
can safely take off my top or benaked in the water, that is a

(57:33):
floating respite from all thisother body work.
And I'm talking about calmbodies of water because I've
learned now, over these lastcouple of years, the ocean was
my.
That's one thing, and oceanwith waves is one thing.
You know, that's a whole dancewith this greatest force on

(57:57):
earth.
And floating in a lake istotally different.
I've also swam in rivers withsnakes.
That I never thought I would do, or you know things like that.
That is like every body ofwater has different
characteristics, differentcharacteristics.
But to generalize this, whenthese times when I've been able

(58:18):
to be naked especially, um, aslike a woman body that's I
experienced a lot of shame, um,internalized shame.
I did not show my body when Iwas younger.
I did not go to saunas nakedwith other people until I was in
my late 30s I guess.
So I was completely you knowand again this is something I'm

(58:44):
still undoing but like thishatred of my body and I think,
swimming and floating naked andfree and I'm a ample, bosomed
woman on top of it.
So there's always been thislike shame and just like a
tension I've gotten and beingable to like let my titties free

(59:09):
in the water and float and justenjoy the elements and is
healing of like the highestorder.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
I can't, I can't overstate how much that's given
to me in terms of healing how Ifeel in my body yeah, I'm glad,
it's almost like I'm feelingobviously obviously it's your
experience, but I am feeling,obviously obviously it's your
experience.
But I'm feeling this like, ifnothing else, the like

(59:38):
tumbleweed thing, like youneeded to go get in all the
bodies of water and, yeah,experience that sense of like
freedom, of like not beinglooked at or not, like your body
being entirely your own andbeing like a natural, occurring

(01:00:02):
thing that wants to commune withnature and like, yeah, it's.
I mean I feel like we could godown like a whole rabbit hole
with like tits and the male gazeand objectification and, um,
yeah, like big tits are greatbut like also terrible.
Or like you know, or every kindof tit is great but also

(01:00:23):
horrible.
Like you, it's so hard to likeyour body in this world, and I
was.
I saw something this morning onInstagram.
It was Sophie Strand talkingabout speaking of consciousness,
like that.
I can't remember exactly howshe said it, but basically the
idea was that, like ourconsciousness we think of as

(01:00:46):
this like individual thingthat's contained in our body,
but that consciousness isactually like, interconnected
with our environment, and so thepoint she was making was, like
you know, to sit in a room witha therapist.
Like a sterile room, more orless sterile room with a

(01:01:07):
therapist and have like aone-on-one conversation about
healing or your problems, likedoesn't allow for this broader,
more multifaceted, intricate,subtle, complex.
Like consciousness andawareness and like beingness
that we have as our nature innature, like that the trees are

(01:01:31):
also part of the consciousnessand awareness around where we
are, or the birds or the animalsor the plants.
And yeah, I'm just like hearingthat this morning and thinking
about what you're sharing.
Like you getting to take yourconsciousness out of this study

(01:01:58):
when your life was like reallyshrunk down to then being able
to like have a whole sensoryexperience out in the world that
was like vast and sort ofunlimited and also very
authentic in terms of it justbeing like this is what nature
is.
And like you getting to be thatand not getting not having to
like be defined by the role youwere needing to fill or, um,

(01:02:20):
some other aspect of youridentity.
It's just really, reallybeautiful and I wonder I want to
hear more about.
Well, let's, let's move intothe art is where where I want to
go.
But, um, yeah, I had noticedthat you were making these

(01:02:41):
soundscapes and like collecting,gathering, as you were saying,
um, from all these differentplaces and travels, and I was
thinking about this podcast andI was like, yeah, I need, I do
want, I do want some music.
I want a little theme song, butI don't want like a ditty, I
don't want and I don't know likewho to pay to like sing
something or write lyrics orwhatever.
And also, like you, I feel veryI'm just thinking about nature

(01:03:09):
all the time.
I'm thinking about climatechange all the time.
I'm like feel this yearning tobe more immersed in nature, um,
as a city person and, yeah, thislike grief of the diminishing
contact we have with nature.
And so, um, I really wanted tolike express that through the

(01:03:31):
music by just having morenatural sound and creating like
beautiful sounds through thisacknowledgement of nature.
And so I was like ChantalChantal can make this and you
did, um such a beautiful job andI sent you like some sound from
the crows in my mother'sbackyard and I was um horse
sitting on a ranch as this wascoming up.
And I was horse sitting on aranch as this was coming up and

(01:03:55):
I was like gathering sounds oflike my feet hitting the dirt
road and I don't know if I got,like some of the horses walking,
but also like fox birdschirping, there was a big stand
of oaks with a bunch of windchimes in it that I tried to

(01:04:15):
collect sound for.
So I just want to, like I don'tknow, set that context for
listeners.
This is where these things comefrom and Chantal made them, and
also the kalimba in yourbathtub.
But yeah, talk to us a littlebit about what your art practice
is looking like now, whatyou're working on, what you're

(01:04:35):
excited about, what's fuelingyou creatively.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Yeah, first of all, I was so delighted when you
invited me to participate andcollaborate in this way for the
podcast, in this way for thepodcast, and you know I had this
library of so many collectedsounds and it was just really
fun to be able to put them, putthem to use.
And I do want to say that someof the sounds that so I actually

(01:05:07):
pulled up you know the list ofsounds that I used for the
podcast music and in addition towhat you mentioned, there's,
you know, ocean waves, tide,pool cracklings, rain, frogs,
thunder but some of the soundsthere's a process you can do

(01:05:28):
where you take the sound like,for example, pl, plink, plink of
the rain, and you can turnthose, um, sort of like those
notes into an instrument, um, soI did that with even some of
the sounds you hear in thepodcast, where it might sound

(01:05:49):
like a musical instrument, butit's actually a pattern
generated from nature, so thatwas a fun way to play with it as
well.
But, yeah, I think the processis about field recording and, in
how it really is, a way ofencouraging deep listening, and
so I loved that you werecollecting sounds, because I

(01:06:10):
knew that that meant that yourears were turned on in a new way
, and I think that's somethingthat I've noticed through
recording in the environment isthat, even if I never do
anything with the sample that Igather, just the act of the way

(01:06:31):
that I listen while I'mrecording is like this, you know
, hyper-focused listening.
So, yeah, so lately I've madesome sonic portraits of place
using sort of like a soundcollage, but the biggest thing
I'm doing now is that I, inSeptember, I came to New Orleans

(01:06:58):
and it's actually this is likea dream seed I planted in 2019.
I came here when, before beforethe tower fell, I had this
magical two weeks alone here inthe city, having all of these
just synchronous experiences andexplorations of place.
And I went back to my smalltown and I was like, wow, ok,

(01:07:23):
you know, new Orleans is a placeof place, like it has all the
aspects that make a place aplace like you know music,
culture, food, you know theweather and the landscape and
the history fuck the history andthe art, and so, um, you know,

(01:07:48):
at the time I had said, like,what would it take for me to
move to New Orleans?
And it, you know I didn't putthat answer on my list.
But really what it?
What it meant was, um, notcaregiving for my mom, and so,
anyways, my my traveling tumbledaround and an opportunity came

(01:08:09):
up a few months ago for me tocome here.
And as I was heading towardshere and thinking, oh, I might
stay a couple months now it'sturned into six months but I
realized that I've beenjournaling along the way and

(01:08:30):
that my journaling really becamesomething different when I
started to tumbleweed about.
I have about 50 journals herefrom the last four years.
I write a little bit big, butstill I'm averaging like a book
average-sized journal, about onea month, some with sketches and

(01:08:52):
drawings, about one a month,some with sketches and drawings.
But it became a way for me toexplore my shadow, you know,
connect with private parts ofmyself that I wanted to face,
think about my values andintegrity.
I write to my Nana, who passed.

(01:09:13):
She returned to Stardust, youknow, 14 years ago and I've
written to her since then, dearNana.
So I really connect with myancestry.
I invoke my other, gramsci, andmy great-granny and my mom now,
which was a little bitcomplicated at first, but she's

(01:09:36):
become an absolute likebenevolent ancestor and has
actually, through magical spirit, things I know she's helping me
on this journey.
But so basically I came herewith my journals and I am
working on a book.
So I did one pass where I readthrough all the journals, cried,

(01:10:01):
took a bunch of hot baths.
It was really hard to see.
You know, I went through somefriend breakups, breakup
breakups, romantic loverbreakups, and I guess just you
know, reading back when you readback your old journals and you

(01:10:24):
see like how it's, you know,embarrassing, sometimes Like oh
my God, what I didn't know,saying sometimes like oh my god,
what I didn't know.
But so I did one pass ofreading through them and now I'm
in a process of transcribingexcerpts and from the journals

(01:10:44):
I'm halfway through and then mynext phase will be illustrating
them.
So I want it to be aillustrated memoir, graphic
memoir.
But it's really important forme to this act of telling my
story as part of the sort ofcoalescing of this healing

(01:11:07):
recovery journey.
I think the act I've beenreading about, I've been
studying a lot of, I've beenlistening to this podcast called
this Jungie in life.
Yeah, oh, it is so great, um Ispecifically listened to
episodes like aboutself-betrayal, self-loathing,

(01:11:27):
the ego, self-access, and I'mreally interested in what I have
done in these last four years,you know, through my journals
and through my experiences, todevelop a more secure
relationship with self, and sothis book project really centers
on that, and I've actuallygiven a couple of workshops, a

(01:11:49):
couple online and one in personhere in New Orleans so far, um
about my journaling practice andsharing the exercises that I do
and the way that I've used itto um to, uh, you know, nurture
this relationship.
So beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
Yeah, I've seen you've shared some of the images
that you're working on andagain, they're really like
beautiful and wonderful to takein and you're such a skilled
artist.
But this feels sounds like aincredible synthesis of like the

(01:12:36):
journey and this reclaiming,and one thing that's feeling
important, as we honor yourstory, is the time it takes and
like the star.
You know and I'm not sayinglike I don't want to reduce your
whole experience to like towerstar, like there's a lot more

(01:13:01):
nuance to it than that.
But that transition, that actof reclaiming, you know, when we
look at the cards side by side,it's like, oh, this one looks
terrifying and this one looks sonice and lovely and it's almost
like we could take away.
I think you know, with theparts of us that really love

(01:13:23):
like big shifts, like immediategratification, like results ASAP
, that it's like, oh, this andthen that, like it just bam bam,
but like, depending on yourtower and what that means for
you and what it looked like andwhat it felt like and how long

(01:13:44):
it lasted, and that kind ofthing.
It's going to also inform theprocess of reclaiming, which I
think is just sort of like inthis world at this time, is an
ongoing undertaking, because theworld we live in is not
conducive to us learning how tohonor ourselves or giving us

(01:14:07):
space to do that.
Just the fact that we have, tolike, have enough money to live
and that things are becomingless and less affordable means
discovering like, differentparts of ourselves, making space
for that, um, accessing thingsthat help us heal, like.
All of that becomes more andmore difficult, and so it makes

(01:14:28):
sense to, of course, like I meanjust as a natural process.
It takes time, uh, when we havechallenges and barriers in our
way, the time maybe extends, butI think there's something
beautiful in the fact that yourjourney has taken this winding,
kind of like watery, fluid path,and maybe now there's like a

(01:14:53):
pool gathering for you in NewOrleans, which indeed is a
magical, interesting characterof a city, um, and so, yeah,
those sketches also like, or the, the work that you're doing,
the project that you're workingon, it feels like this I love
that word coalescing but thiskind of like synthesis of the

(01:15:17):
skills you have, the practicesyou've always been using, the
fact that you are willing to sitwith all of your journals and
go through them is so courageous.
Like anyone, anyone who doesthis is going to have like
cringe wash over them.
Anyone who does this is goingto have like cringe wash over
them.
But you really get to likeacknowledge and see what you've

(01:15:41):
gone through and like how you'vegrown and how you've opened up
and now you believes a lot inlike the power of creative
practice, the creative process,that taking all of this and like

(01:16:03):
channeling it into someartistic object or artifact
really crystallizes something orit becomes this huge marker in
time for you.
So sorry that was like a longessay but so spot on.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
It made me think a couple of things.
One is that I had I had thismoment the last time I was in
California or in this pastsummer, where I basically
inadvertently went out just alittle too far in the waves and
I couldn't touch, and then twobig thumpers came in back to

(01:16:39):
back and I was pulled underneathand tumbled for a long time and
when the second wave came Ididn't have much time to catch
my breath.
And when I popped up the secondtime and I think it was maybe
more anxiety, but there wasanother wave coming and I had it
was the most frightened I'veever been in the water.

(01:17:00):
And when I came out of thewater and first of all I was
like, oh, that would be sofucking ironic if I did this
whole traveling journey and thendrowned on the beach that I had
tried to leave journey and thendrowned on the beach that I had
tried to leave.
But anyway, I came out the waterand I had a fresh journal there

(01:17:20):
and I was like you know, Idescribed the whole scenario and
then you know, like what's whatwe, we, we all have this like
unknown clock right and what'smost important to me and I want
to leave a book.
Like I haven't wanted to havechildren, but like if I can

(01:17:44):
birth a book in the time I have.
You know, I have other storiesI would like to do more, but if
I can at least just get this oneout, um, that will feel like I
have contributed to thisbeautiful artistic language and
legacy that books, uh, and thinkit's just what I'm doing right

(01:18:14):
now is like feel so, soimportant that any doubts I had
at the beginning, where I waslike, oh, I shouldn't take up
space telling my dumb story, andnow I'm just like I can't even
Nope, no room for that.
Like I just I know this is whatI need to do before I can do

(01:18:34):
other work and I hope this bookis an offering.
I hope this, this story of ofself and learning, to.
I do think one thing I've reallybeen wanting to learn how to
love without obligation, and Ididn't think that was actually a
true thing when I started out.
I was like, eh, I don't know, Idon't think that's true, but

(01:18:55):
now I think it.
Love obviously in our Englishlanguage is not a big enough
word for all the different typesof love that we practice and
engage in and verb Um.
But I think I have learnedthrough interdependence and
adaptability and engaging, youknow, in reciprocal

(01:19:19):
relationships where I can fairlysay, or, you know, honestly,
speak my needs and hear someoneelse's needs and then we see
what we can share with eachother and that that type of
interdependence, that's a typeof love without obligation, and
that's been like one of the mostbeautiful things I've learned
through staying in strangers'houses along the way or I don't

(01:19:45):
know the customs and findingways to interact in this honest
and kind way with people.

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):
I think again, that's love feminine slash, like a
mirror to the way you had tolive for a long time where like
love kind of was an obligation,like the love you felt was

(01:20:25):
inherent and like you didn'thave to like necessarily
manufacture that perhaps.
But with that came this senseof like, obligation, like
because I love, like I mustprovide in this way.
And so venturing out into theworld becomes this teacher for

(01:20:48):
like what does it mean to lovewithout obligation?
Um, and maybe like withoutexpectation and without the
sense of like responsibility,and like love is kind of like a
force or a vibration or anenergy in addition to an action.
Yeah, that seems reallybeautiful and I think in a

(01:21:11):
transactional world, a lot of usare trying to figure out.
I mean, many of us are nottrying to figure out, but some
of us are trying to feel intothat, even if we don't know that
we're trying.
So I understand and honor howisolating your experience must

(01:21:32):
have felt, caregiving for yourmother.
But also, you know, imaginethere are many other people who
go through similar kinds ofscenarios in their own unique
way, and your book forthcomingwill like provide witness for
that, you know, like maybe evenprovide a map, maybe for someone

(01:21:54):
else.
It's like I'm stuck in thisthing and I feel like it's never
going to end.
But I found this book that'slike oh, there is another side.
Like I just kind of have tolike hold on.
And then, yeah, being thisexample of like what healing can
look like, what reclaiming canlook like, what love can look

(01:22:16):
like feels, there's the questionof like how do you make this

(01:22:37):
work Like financially, like itseems like you're, you know,
really committed to your art,that that really takes like a
lot of the room of your life andthe traveling and you mentioned
it a little bit at thebeginning like having some money
and kind of running out, and itreally, I imagine I think

(01:23:17):
that's something that would stopso many people from even trying
.
Any of this is like, oh, I'llrun out.
Ends meet both as like acreative person on the move, um,
and not necessarily having likea steady income.
You don't have to answer that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
But no, no, no no, it's part of it's, one of the
it's.
One of the main themes is thatum.
I actually my, my financialsituation was so intertwined
with my mom's for a long timewhere I would use my money to
buy things for her and then Ididn't have money to pay my

(01:23:43):
bills and I had to ask for helpand I felt like a piece of shit
for years because it felt like Ididn't know how to manage money
and also, not to mention andthis happens with a lot of
caregivers I was on call.
I was spending hours a weekcleaning my mom's house, taking

(01:24:04):
care of her, doing all of thesethings that I was, you know, not
being paid for.
I did have some family helphelp.
My mom did not get anygovernment help because she
always resisted putting a labelof sick on herself, which I
understand now.
It was highly frustrating, butI understand autonomy and I

(01:24:24):
understand now you know what ascary proposition that is to
label yourself as disabled inthis culture and systems.
But anyway, so for a long timemy money situation was was
really unhealthy.
I was, I was very anti-money, Iwas anti-rich.

(01:24:46):
I was like, if I make moneywith my art, then that means I'm
colluding with you know, thenthat means I'm colluding with
you know, and at the beginningof this journey, the I actually

(01:25:08):
I had connected a little bitpreviously, but I started a um,
uh, it was a money circle, uh,with someone who's become a dear
friend, um, and she, uh goesunder the name financials for
creatives.
And um, jenny Carlson reframesthis idea of money as energy,

(01:25:42):
and for me, what it did is thatI started to realize that I was
not eating properly.
I was living secretly in mystudio without a shower.
For many years, I was, you know,not able to take care of my
basic needs because I wasputting my art first or my mom

(01:26:04):
first, or whatever it was, andthat in these last few years, my
journals are full of drawingsfrom this money deck and
journaling about how to reframethis relationship with money.
Thank you, money.
Thank you money for a safeplace to sleep tonight.
You've helped me buy this foodthat I need and ideally, yes, I

(01:26:26):
would fucking love to live in abarter system, you know, but
that's not where we're at yet.
Um, so I had to reframe my ideaaround like appreciating money
and thanking it and inviting iton this adventure with me and
really not just being like now Ihave no money, please.

(01:26:50):
Like begging money to show up,you know.
And now it's like I have moreof this maintenance with my
relationship with money.
So that includes asking forhelp in a way that I don't talk
myself into a shit, self-hatinguh, you know depression before I
ask for help.
Um, that was a big thing I wasdoing in the past, uh, but now I

(01:27:14):
can.
I look ahead better, I budgetbetter because of the traveling.
It taught me a lot about,realistically, what things are
going to cost and the details ofwhat I'm going to need to get
from A to B.
Um, so anticipating that's beena big thing, but I do a lot of.
I am working the free angles.

(01:27:35):
I'm working the opportunities.
You know I've gotten to do acouple artist residencies and
some things that on Instagramlook so luxurious, but really,
you know, either it didn't costmuch or I was gifted something,
or I do work along the way,making paintings and doing video

(01:28:01):
art.
I've been paid for creatingmusic videos, doing editing for
this podcast.
There's ways that I have beenable to work along the way.
But, uh, I have also found,like you know, some
opportunities through, likedoing a big commission painting

(01:28:22):
and staying at their gorgeoushouse while I do the painting.
You know that type of thing.
So it's very patchwork puttogether and I still have money
anxieties, but now I can reallyregulate them and call things in

(01:28:42):
in a way that's like so muchmore positive and and healthy
and proactive too, because a lotof my anxiety monies in the
past were like put my head inthe sand, hope it works out.
And so my, so Jenny's, jenny'sfavorite, my favorite piece of
advice from Jenny is thiswarrior, magician attitude.

(01:29:04):
So it's it's, with all of thatlike the magic things are going
to come.
You're, you're putting it inthe universe and the warrior is
the proactive.
What can I do today to nurturemy relationship with money or to
invite money in and things likethat?
So, um, it's very much takingthe victim mindset that I had.
In the past too, I had a veryvictim mindset about money, uh,

(01:29:28):
but taking that away andreplacing it with this like
warrior act, yeah, and it takesa lot, takes a lot.
I still have to write about ita lot to to counteract the other
messages that say that I'm notworth sleeping in a safe place
because I am an artist whosticks by my.

(01:29:49):
You know like that narrative isjust so prevalent.
It takes a lot to counteract it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:56):
What a good answer.
Thank you, that was, I think Ineeded to hear that.
So, yeah, and like it's such atrip, it's such a mindfuck.
I think to like money feels andfeels and is, I guess, like an

(01:30:16):
external thing, and so we thinkwe have to do all external
things to have enough money andwe do, you know, like to the
warrior point, like we have todo things, but also like the way

(01:30:38):
that we feel towards money andall the stories we were
indoctrinated with around moneylike become a filter for that
relationship we have externallywith it.
And yeah, I think for creativepeople, relating to money is one
of the most difficult thingsbecause there's so many stories

(01:31:01):
about just like creativity andpoverty and like having you know
, so I that's just that's superhelpful to hear.
Good for you too, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:31:20):
One last tidbit, coming from that what you said.
Um so, as as I started workingwith Jenny's deck, which let's
put in the show notes, it's suchan incredible tool as I started
working with it.
one of the things was I would godown to the ocean and say money
loves me, money wants to comeon this adventure with me.

(01:31:42):
So I started with that and thatwas kind of uncomfortable to say
.
It took me months before Irealized, oh shit, I have to
also tell money that I love itand to say the words out loud I
love money.
Like I couldn't do it and andthinking about it in this way of

(01:32:04):
a reciprocal relationship.
And that's when, you know, Istarted to really work on this,
like gratitude for gratitude forit's not cute, it's not, you
know for where I cannot createart, when my brain hurts because
I'm hungry, like, and I'velived that life and it's not

(01:32:25):
sustainable anymore, I cannot doit, and that means I have to
figure out a way to take care ofmyself, and that means I have
to have this relationship withmoney.
And for me it's about like justenough, right, like I just want
enough so that I can eat andsleep safely, and so I don't.

(01:32:45):
I hate that we are, I don'twant to, especially right now,
this like, oh, this vulgar greed.
you know that we're witnessingmakes you think, oh, it's gross
to say I love money, but it's,you know, we have to again,

(01:33:07):
especially as artists.
We have to reframe that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:09):
So yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I that I did a course calledthe Trauma of Money back in, I
guess, 2023.
And I did the professionaltrack and you can get their

(01:33:31):
certification, which means youcan use their tools and
materials.
It was a really holistic course, um, that I highly recommend.
And since I was like lateturning in my certification
thing that was due actually likelast week, so I the last couple
of weeks I was like going backthrough the material and

(01:33:52):
revisiting and, um, the lastcouple of weeks I was like going
back through the material andrevisiting.
And the last couple of yearshave been kind of fraught.
I mean, a lot of my life hasbeen fraught with money, working
in nonprofits and not really,you know, it seems like the best
way to like have a steadyincome is to do something
corporate, basically, which isnot a good fit for me.

(01:34:16):
And going through thesematerials again, I've been like
this opportunity to like docause there's a lot of different
, like facilitators who show upin the course and offer
different things and talk aboutdifferent aspects of like
capitalism and financialliteracy and course like trauma
nervous system regulation.
So, but long story long like,I've been working similarly with

(01:34:39):
this notion like I had to belike, oh, money is not my enemy,
money is my friend and likelook at all the things money has
enabled me to do, even though alot for many, you know.
Most of the time I felt like Ijust have enough or like it's a

(01:34:59):
close call, you know?
Um, so yeah, when you said likeyelling, I love money into the
waves, like my body was alsolike, oh god, that's a.
Um.
Yeah, there's like the part ofme like the little kid, like I
was reading babysitter's cluband I was like I want to make a

(01:35:20):
little money, or like thelemonade stand.
And even when I startedtypewriter tarot and would do
readings for like 20 bucks orsomething at a bar or like at an
event or like a market, andthen come home with like this,
like wad of cash, or this littlelike three digit number in my
Venmo.
I was like this is so fun andlike it's okay.

(01:35:42):
You know, to feel like, wow, Idid something people felt was
valuable and they exchanged thiswith me and letting that be
okay, especially while you'relike, oh fuck, billionaires and
uh, yeah, our whole publicsystem is being raided so rich
people can be richer Like it'syeah, it's a real mindfuck, but

(01:36:04):
thank you for sharing all ofthat.
That's really beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
One last thing about the earning money.
As an artist, I've had thesemoments, um, that I recognize.
I recognize again because ofwhat I've learned the money
compass deck of doing an artproject where at the end of it I
recognize, oh, I'm existing inthe middle of this Venn diagram

(01:36:29):
of emotional fulfillment,financial fulfillment and
creative fulfillment and thisproject hits all three of those.
It's in my you know, with myintegrity and, and that's the
sweet spot that I'm looking forand I actually have really taken
years to like weed out doingprojects that don't align with

(01:36:50):
that.
And you know it took me time.
I hustled and did a bunch ofdumb, dumb stuff for years,
different jobs in the past, butalso with art commissions that
you know hurt to draw or paintor whatever.
But over time that's reallybeen my goal is to get to that

(01:37:11):
sweet spot.

Speaker 1 (01:37:14):
I love that Emotionally, financially,
creatively.
Yeah, that really is where it'sat, just like out there for
people who can't, through theirwork, like, access much of that

(01:37:35):
or even get to be that creativewhen you know 40 hours a week or
whatever, um, and to you outthere, we love you, keep keep
creating, fight, fight for it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:48):
Um, yeah, so I think we're at a good place in our
journey and probably time-wise,I was cracking up, because
whenever I'm editing theseepisodes and I'm like girl
Cecily, another two-hour episodeas I'm editing, I'm like wow,
wow, and now this one.

(01:38:09):
I'm like are you sure we haveto go already?

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
You see how it happens one.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
I'm like are you sure we have to go already?
You see how it happens and Ijust want to say you, you've
shouted out in the past, um,like where people are tuning in
from, and it is such just adelight.
I was so excited getting readyfor this today.
It's such an honor, a delightto get to transmit a little bit

(01:38:36):
of my story and my intention topeople in other places and I am
like you said, we're rooting foryou.
I am cheering on the dreamers inevery part of the world,
especially especially those ofyou who feel stuck and tethered,
and that is who I want toconnect with, especially like

(01:39:02):
Lifeline.
I am absolutely going back intime to my past self, who felt
so stuck and alone and saying,like, just keep dreaming, just
keep visualizing, imagining likethe most delicious scenarios
and dreams and even if a littletiny piece of them comes true,

(01:39:23):
like you'll feel thatsatisfaction, you know, and that
fulfillment, and so, um, yeah,so I just want to, yeah, send
the, send love tentacles out towhoever listens to this and
thank you so much for takingyour time and I hope it's giving
you something.

Speaker 1 (01:39:43):
Yeah, and thank you, chantal, for offering all of
this in our conversation.
And yeah, so there's some wayspeople can support and work with
you.
You have a Patreon.
We'll come back to that.
You so you also.
You you offer the creativejournaling workshops from time

(01:40:04):
to time.
You do live performance visualprojections.
You're available for podcastediting.
You're available for podcastediting.
Chantal is great.
If you've got a podcast or wantto start one, call Chantal.
Um, yeah, what happens?
Tell us about your Patreon andwe'll put all of these links in

(01:40:25):
the show notes.
So people, and your Instagramtoo, so people can find you yeah
, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:40:31):
I, uh, my Patreon is, you know, been limping along
for a couple years.
It's been a struggle for me tofigure out how what to put there
.
It's such a different modalitythan Instagram as far as
engagement and like what, whatdo these people want?
And it's long form, but youknow, so I'm still kind of, but

(01:40:51):
it's there and I do talk about,like you know, um, so I'm still
kind of, but it's there and Iand I do talk about, like you
know, behind the scenes of myprocess and what, where I'm at,
what I'm working on, uh, but Iwould love to revive it more
especially, you know, as itfeels healthier and healthier to
spend less time, um, in theInstagram space, but, uh, for,

(01:41:12):
fortunately, unfortunately, I,my Instagram has been a living
portfolio for years now.
Um, and if you do want to checkout, uh, specific aspects of my
work, I ha, I use hashtags as afiling system, as a portfolio,
so I have hashtag ChantalDeFelice video, chantal DeFelice

(01:41:34):
audio, chantal DeFelice audio,chantal DeFelice paintings,
chantal DeFelice drawings and afew more.
So it's hard for me to let goof that space and you know the
engagement there.
But, yeah, so my Instagram,I'll put it in the show notes,
but it's just my name, chantal tfelice patreon.

(01:41:56):
um the workshops and I guess youdo commission pieces if they
suit you yeah, um, yeah, I'vedone a couple of fulfilling
portrait commissions recently,but, yeah, the live video

(01:42:17):
performance and, yeah, forartist residencies, I've done a
few of those, a couple over thelast few years, but I'm always
looking for DIY artistresidencies too.
Oh, okay, so getting to gospend a chunk of time at a place
and and make my art, I think,um, traditional residencies are

(01:42:39):
really competitive and, uh, youknow, really far out, like the
application and then when theresidency is, and so that's been
tricky for me.
But, um, but I love to, youknow, make trades or I think I
bring a lot to a space when Icome to your town For sure,

(01:43:01):
beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
Well, again, all of that will be in the show notes,
and thank you again so much formaking this podcast possible and
sound good.
When the episodes don't soundgood, it's probably because
Chantal was not involved, andthank you so much for everything
that you shared.

Speaker 2 (01:43:21):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:43:28):
Thanks so much for listening.
Creative spirits, I reallyappreciate having you along on
this journey and I hope theconversations and, yeah, I hope
what we're transmitting isbringing something good into
your life.
If it is, and you want moresupport with your creativity and

(01:43:51):
magic, I recommend hopping onmy email list, which is where
you're going to get informationfrom me about what I'm sharing
and offering in a more timelyfashion, and you'll get like
more savings and more bonusesand you'll just be more in the
ecosystem and there'll be morefor you.

(01:44:14):
So you can hop over totypewriter tarotcom and add your
.
Add your name and email address.
I email about once a weekunless I'm like really launching
something, but I always giveyou a way to um opt out of any
emails that are coming at afaster clip.
So, yeah, I just want to sendyou some love.

(01:44:38):
Thank you for listening, Thankyou to Chantal for being on the
show and I hope there's somecreativity and magic brewing in
your week and I will talk to younext time.
Okay, bye.

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THE STAR: Naked in the Water w/ Chantal de Felice

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