A Deep Dive into the Psychology of Tennis with Josh Burger M.S.

Have you ever wondered why some tennis players seem to have an uncanny ability to maintain their cool under pressure while others falter? Well, it's no secret that the game is as much about mental strength as it is about physical prowess. And this is precisely what we unpack in our mind-stirring conversation with Josh Burger M.S., founder of Tiebreaker Psych and sport psychology coach.

Josh Burger M.S.,  a former Division III tennis player Division I tennis coach, graces us with his fascinating insights into the mental side of sports. He discusses his personal journey and background in tennis, and his foray into the world of tennis psychology with projects like Tiebreaker Psych and Tennis IQ Podcast. Together, we also put our minds to work, exploring the power of visualization, the role of breathing, and the value of pre-game routines in tennis, and routines in between points. 

In the concluding lap of our chat, we delve into the realm of abstract concepts in sports psychology. Drawing from the inspirational story of Roger Bannister's four-minute mile and David Goggins' persona, 'Goggins', we highlight the importance of self-belief and the impact of a confident state of mind on performance. We devise a roadmap for tennis players to succeed, and underscore the significance of post-match analysis and self-reflection, emphasizing the importance of learning from each match experience. So get ready and prepare to be enlightened on how to elevate your game by mastering the mental side of tennis.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
You are listening to your League Tennis Podcast with
your host, anthony Radonia.
Anthony is an avid weekendwarrior tennis player, just like
you.
Every week, he'll beinterviewing new and exciting
guests that will not only differin experience and skill level,
but also in age and physicalability.
Your League Tennis Podcast isabout making you a better tennis

(00:26):
player, whether you're abeginner or have been playing
for years, in your 20s or inyour 60s.
Now here is your host, anthonyRadonia.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Alright cool.
Well, how are you Josh?

Speaker 3 (00:43):
I'm doing well, Anthony.
Great to be with you today.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yes, I'm so thankful that you agreed to come on, so I
really appreciate it.
You are Josh Burger and wehooked up through Instagram.
I follow you on Instagram Ithink you were following me too.
I love your content.
I've been listening to some ofyour stuff recently too, just
obviously in preparation forthis, but even before I was sort

(01:07):
of skimming your Instagramalways, so I like the stuff you
put out, and I contacted you andsaid hey, if you're interested
or would do me the favor andhonor of coming on, and you said
yes, I really appreciate it,josh.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Well, no, I'm appreciative as well and, yeah,
thank you for the invite and,yeah, really, really excited to
talk with you.
I love the platform that youhave and also the message being
able to focus on league tennisand people that are playing
throughout the country and world.

(01:45):
Different tennis clubs,different parks, different.
The vast, vast, vast majorityof tennis players are not the
ones that we watch on TV thepeople that are playing, as you
said, weekend warriors, or thepeople that are doing clinics
and people that really love thesport and, yeah, I think that

(02:05):
those sorts of people deserve tobe spoken to directly by, and
so I love the platform that youhave here.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Awesome.
Thank you, josh.
Well, let's start with a littleabout you first.
So I was trying to figure outtoo the tiebreaker psych and the
tennis IQ podcast are they thesame or different?
You have two sort of separatethings going on.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Yeah, so they're different.
So tiebreaker psych is mycompany, so my full-time job is
I do sports psychology withdifferent types of athletes.
I work with a lot of tennisplayers.
Probably 50, 60% of my clientsare tennis players, you know,
adults, junior players, collegeplayers, different levels of

(02:49):
players, but also athletes ofother sports.
So tiebreaker psych, as youcould probably imagine, is a bit
of a tennis reference there.
And then tennis IQ podcast is apodcast that I'm the co-host of
along with Dr Brian Lomax, andwe talk about the mental side of
tennis.
We talk about yeah, themajority of our episodes are the

(03:11):
two of us and we talk aboutdifferent topics.
Sometimes those topics are morein terms of details, in terms
of what can you do in betweenpoints or your self-talk or
breathing, and sometimes they'rebigger picture things, more
philosophical, or aboutmotivation why do we play in the
first place?
Things like that Sometimes wehave some guests on as well, so

(03:35):
kind of a mix of things.
But yeah, it's all about themental side of tennis.
But that's something that Brianand I both do on the side,
something that we both reallyenjoy and maybe in a similar way
.
It's a great way to maybe reacha broader audience, rather than
just the specific people thatwe work with through our
businesses.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
And why the focus on tennis for the tennis IQ podcast
.
You have a background in tennisas well.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
I do, yeah, so I grew up playing different sports but
tennis became my main sport andthrough some of those early
experiences I recognized theimportance of the mental side of
the game.
And I played in college at theDivision III level and I got
into coaching and coached at theDivision I level for a couple

(04:24):
of years, coached at the TennisHall of Fame in Newport, rhode
Island, as well, at somedifferent clubs in the Northeast
and in the West Coast actually.
And yeah, so sort of through.
And Brian also comes from acompetitive tennis environment,
a competitive tennis background.
So both of us come from thistennis background and work with

(04:47):
a lot of tennis players, butsome other athletes as well, and
D'ya wanted to sort of link upand offer have a podcast that
really focuses on that side ofthings.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Okay, so how old are you?
I forgot to ask that.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
I am 29.
I turned 30 on Friday, though.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Oh my gosh, you're okay, you're still young then.
And then so are you playing nowfor fun, or league, anything
like that, or not?
So I'm playing some.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
So the last few years , so the last, I would say
almost two years so I wascoaching at the Tennis Hall of
Fame until October of 2021.
So almost two years ago.
So I was playing a lot up untilthen.
These past, you know, nearlytwo years, I haven't been
playing maybe as consistently.
I've done quite a bit of travelover that time and haven't been

(05:35):
, frankly, haven't been playingas consistently as I'd like.
But more recently, this pastmonth or two, have been trying
to, you know, play a lot moreand start to play, you know,
some more matches playing in aUSTA sorry, UTR Flex League and
trying to, you know, just getsome matches in, trying to feel,

(05:56):
you know, feel the pressure ofbeing in that match environment
which, as we know can be, can bepretty different from you know,
more of a practice environment.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
And the Flex Leagues are the ones where they let all
different UTRs in, or how doesthat work?

Speaker 3 (06:10):
So I think it's a collection of people of
different UTRs, but they pairyou with some people that are
similar UTR and then you knowyou and that person, you get
their email and their phonenumber and you can, you know,
arrange the match on your ownschedules rather than you know,
playing in a tournament wherethey say you know you have to be

(06:31):
here at this time and you know,especially when people are busy
, it can be, you know, it can benice.
But I definitely plan to play insome tournaments and some
leagues in the very near future.
It's been a goal of mine inrecent months.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
That's cool.
Yeah, there's something likethat out here in Orange County
where they do that too.
They sort of set up atournament.
It's a little different.
They set up a tournament butthey give everyone the time to
sort of work out the matches,Like they trade phone numbers
Really cool idea and so peoplejust work out the time together.
So pretty cool.
So when did you start gettinginto the mental side, the

(07:11):
tiebreaker psych and obviouslyyour focus of study?
You know, when did you startgoing down that road?

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, I would say it was actually some of my
experiences as a junior tennisplayer that first led me to that
.
You know, I both me and some ofthe people around me, I would
say had challenges relating tothe mental side of the game.
You know, I would, yeah, be ina higher pressure moment and

(07:39):
really feel that, feel thenerves or the anxiety.
I would get pretty frustratedand I think some of the people
around me were maybe even worse.
So it became, you know, itbecame pretty clear from a, you
know, relatively young age, I'dsay from around middle school,
when I started getting into thesport a little bit more, that
this was important, that themental game was important.

(08:00):
I read a couple of books on themental side of tennis, winning
ugly and the inner game oftennis, yep, and you know,
through both of thoseexperiences, yeah, through
reading both of those books,they helped me.
They just sort of understand alittle bit more what was going
on mentally.
And I never talked to anyone,you know, never talked to the

(08:22):
sports psychology professional,but you know, some of those
experiences, yeah, led me to bemore interested in it.
And then when I got to college,I was playing, you know,
college tennis I studiedpsychology and you know,
definitely you know, startedthinking about what I wanted to
do long term and did a master'sdegree in sports psychology.
You know, right after, rightafter my undergrad and while I

(08:44):
was there, I did my dissertationinto mental toughness in
college tennis and interviewedsome division one coaches on
mental.
You know about mental toughnessand yeah, that sort of one
thing.
One thing led to another in acertain way, but yeah, it really
started with some of thoseearly experiences.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Oh man, that's so cool.
So your business then isliterally is it more, I guess,
what I would think of as anormal psychologist?
Are you sitting down one on onewith someone and sort of
talking through whatever theirissues are, or how does that?

Speaker 3 (09:22):
work.
So it's different.
I mean, I always try to be, youknow, pretty clear in terms of
what I do.
You know what I offer and whatI'm qualified to do, and what I
don't do and what I'm notqualified to do.
So you know really, what I workon with athletes is the
performance side.
So I'm a, you know, sportspsychology coach.
I'm not a, you know, therapistor a psychologist.
So you know there is thatdifference here.

(09:43):
So really what I work on withathletes is the performance side
, so really trying to builddifferent skills that can help
them hopefully perform you know,perform at higher levels, enjoy
their sport, more things likethat.
So it really is.
You know there's some talkingthrough things that takes place.
You know, if they just playedin a match or a tournament, you

(10:03):
know let's start there, let'stalk about how did that go, what
went well, what didn't go sowell.
You know how are they applyingsome of the things that we're
talking about?
But then there's a lot aboutthat, you know, that skill
development piece in terms of,you know, building different
mental skills, whether those beself-talk, whether those be
routines, whether that's how weprepare for matches, things like

(10:25):
visualization, goal setting, anumber of different skills.
But yeah, I would say it's alot about that and really trying
to, you know, build skills thatthey can help athletes perform
in the way that they want to.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
So how big is this mental side of things in sports?
So I mean, let's obviously justrelate it to tennis.
If I'm a talented tennis player, let's say I don't work as hard
as the next person, but Ireally have a strong mentality,
a strong mental game.
I mean, is there a way to sortof I don't know like put me on

(11:01):
the scale of should I be just asgood as another person who
doesn't have a mental game?
And you know, I guess this isin great shape, or something
like that?
Is there a way to compare it?

Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah, it's tough.
I mean you hear differentpeople, whether they're
professional athletes, whetherthey're, you know, club league
players, talk about it and putpercentages on it.
Some you know, and if you ask 10different people what
percentage of the sport ismental, I think you'll get 10
different answers.

(11:32):
So you know, I think it's toughto compare.
I would say that the mentalside of the game is definitely a
critical piece.
It's a critical, necessarypiece to success and to playing,
you know, to playing your bestversion of your game, and so is
the physical piece right.
I think they're both criticalpieces and I think, you know, as

(11:57):
we reach higher and higherlevels and I know probably a lot
of league players, whateverlevel they're playing at, if
they're at the 3.0 level, notall, but many of them have
aspirations one day of maybeplaying at the 3.5 level.
The 3.5 player wants to play atthe 4.0 level at some point.
And I think, as we start toclimb the ladder a little bit, I

(12:24):
think, for I think the mentalgame can be more and more of a
difference maker because at acertain level, everybody has the
physical abilities.
If we look at the ATP and WTAplayers, they all have the
physical abilities.
They wouldn't be there.
But if we look at the 3.5player, how many of them are

(12:49):
focusing on the mental game?
Some of them certainly are, butI think it can really be the
difference maker and I broughtup the name of my podcast
earlier and it sort of is adouble meaning.
There's a tiebreaker side.
It's sort of two differentthings.
Number one, we want to be ableto play at our best during the

(13:09):
biggest moments, duringtiebreakers or third sets or
things like that, but also thatit can be a tiebreaker or it can
be a difference maker betweendifferent people, where if
there's two players and theyboth, they both have a similar
level of physical ability andone of them is more focused on
how they're gonna handledifferent situations mentally.

(13:31):
Okay, when I mend this deucepoint or this third set, this is
how I wanna play and I have agame plan and I'm talking to
myself in a constructive,effective way and I have a
routine that I use in betweenpoints, which is, I think, one
of the biggest skills thatplayers can try to develop From

(13:55):
utilizing some of thesedifferent skills.
And who's a similar physicallevel isn't I like my chances.
So I think it really can bethat difference maker.
But I think it's the mentalpiece and the physical piece are
both really critical to eachplayer's success.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, and I remember even seeing a post I thought it
was on your Instagram.
I might have made a note of it.
But yeah, it was interestingbecause you were saying how much
of a percentage the mental sideis, and I've always tried to
figure that out too.
It's like if 100% is, what wewant is like 50% mental, 50%

(14:34):
talent and hard work.
But then I started thinkingwhen I was looking through your
posts yeah, that's, it's tootough to do it that way.
It might just be like can wereach our 100% of hard work?
Can we reach our 100% of themental side, kind of thing you
know.
And then once we at leastmaximize our categories, then

(14:56):
we've achieved sort of what wewant as an individual right, and
so you know, can you talk alittle more about routine?
You've said routine a few times.
I'm really interested to hearwhy is that so important from
the mental side?

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, and I like the way that you framed that,
anthony, in terms of you know,each person's formula or each
person's sort of combination offactors is different, and that's
okay.
Some people have a you knowstronger serve.
Some people are more consistent, some people are faster, like
you know.
Some people maybe naturallyhave you know, are stronger in

(15:34):
certain elements of the mentalgame.
Maybe that'd be focused, maybethat'd be confidence, whatever
that may be.
To answer your question aboutroutines, yeah, I find the
especially for tennis players,the in-between point routine to
be up there with the mostimportant skills that a player
can really develop as it relatesto the mental game.

(15:56):
You know, according to the rulebook and again, some people
play a little bit faster andsome people play a little bit
slower according to the rulebook, you generally have about
20 seconds in between points.
But I would ask you, anthony,and I would ask whoever's
listening as well how would yousay you're generally spending

(16:18):
that time in between points.
Let me ask you how would yousay you generally spend that
time in between points, andmaybe it depends a little bit on
what's been happening.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah, well, it's interesting because, as we're
talking about it, I don't knowwhich is obviously a bad answer
Besides probably me mentallytrying to catch my breath, you
know, sort of a good breathingexercise.
That's probably it, sadly, andthat's probably not good enough.

(16:47):
And the only thing I can thinkof where I should probably add
something is and I wanted to askyou about this too, and I know
you brought this up through yourInstagram was visualization.
So maybe there's an opportunitythere to visualize my return
prior to them serving or myserve prior to me serving, but I
don't do that, so I need to.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
I think visualization can definitely play an
important role here.
I think breathing can as well.
You know, I think essentiallywe wanna have a system where we
can put one point behind us,reset and then really try to
refocus on that next point.
And I think, you know, aframework I like to use is from

(17:30):
Dr Jim Lear, who's some peoplemight be familiar with.
He's been in tennis for decadesand decades.
He's based down, you know, wasbased down in Florida, worked
with a lot of, you know, topprofessional players and he
developed a system called the 16second cure where it's
essentially four steps where youknow each of those steps only

(17:55):
really being a few seconds long,but really with that first step
having a way to put that lastpoint behind you.
You know, can we recognize whathappened in that last point?
Sort of try to do thatobjectively.
You know, let's just noticewhat happened in that last point
.
And, you know, can we also walk, you know, not just stay where
we are.
Can we walk away from sort ofwhere that point ended, but do

(18:18):
that with, try to do that withgood body language.
You know some people even shifttheir racket.
So, sort of starting there thatfirst step in, like you know
first of all what happened, andthen I'm moving away, you know,
using my body language to helpme move away, and then sort of
getting into that next step.
We're really focusing on ourbreathing, really trying to
reset, relax.
I know I like that.

(18:38):
You mentioned that.
You know, catching our breathis really important and I
recently moved out to Boulder,colorado, where the altitude is
over 5,000 feet.
It's, you know, it's about amile high here and the altitude
is, you know, playing analtitude as, as you know, some
people may have experienced isvery different, both in terms of

(19:01):
how the ball flies but also interms of, you know, catching
your breath in between points.
I struggle with that.
So, yeah, that second step,we're trying to sort of reset,
use our breath, and then thatthird step.
We're starting that third stepwe're starting to get into, like
, you know, what are we tryingto do next?
You know, can I really preparefor that next point?
Can I have that clear plan, Ithink, focusing on, you know,

(19:24):
our first couple shots?
Okay, if I'm serving, where doI want to serve?
And then can I try to set up myforehand or my weapon, or maybe
I'm returning and I want toattack the first serve.
You know, I want to attack thesecond serve, return, and I want
to follow it into the net, or Iwant to.
You know, I'm really trying tocome up with a clear game plan
in that step and then I'm goinginto.

(19:45):
You know what is my ritualbouncing the ball or getting on
my toes but having some sort ofsystem where it's like, you know
, I'm recognizing what happened,I'm resetting and then I start
to really focus on that nextpoint.
I think having something likethat can help players to put
that last point behind us,because I think, if not, it's
really hard to yeah, it can bereally hard to let go of it.

(20:10):
Right we?
You know we play a point and wedouble fall, do we?
It's an easy volley and youknow, being able to let go of
that I think can be a realchallenge.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, definitely, and this might be I think it's on
topic, but I mean, when you werespeaking about this, it's it
made me think more about thisother note that I wrote, which
is negative talk.
And then I wanted to ask youabout sort of tough love.
I wrote this down, tough love,because sometimes I treat myself
like a sort of tough love, likeI'll say rude or mean things

(20:45):
kind of thing.
But I'm really wondering howthis all works in with this
routine and I'm wondering, youknow, positive talk obviously is
helpful, but can I don't wantto say negative talk but can
tough love or hey, come on, dothis I mean, can that be helpful
in between shots or do we justtotally stay away from that

(21:06):
stuff?

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Different things work for different people.
I think, you know, we can lookat the top players in the world
and I think we can think abouttheir mentalities, or at least
how we perceive theirmentalities to be, and I think
different things work for themand I think different things
work for each of us.
I mean, I think sometimesthere's, you know, people think
of.
You know, oh, I just want to bepositive with myself, I just

(21:30):
want to be positive, but I thinksometimes that doesn't fully.
You know, that's not alwaysmaybe as effective as well.
You know, when we're just beingpositive, we're sometimes
overlooking some of the otherthings that we actually need to
focus on.
I think the tough love approachcan be effective.
I think sometimes that might goa little overboard, where we're

(21:51):
maybe being too harsh or toocritical with ourselves, and
then that can, you know, hold usback or that can get in our way
in some way.
So I think, yeah, we just wantto be, you know, really
intentional with how we talk toourselves.
I think one exercise that I tryto do with people sometimes is

(22:12):
to try to think about thesituations where maybe your
self-talk can either hold youback or maybe it can be more
negative or maybe it is moretough love.
Can you even think about whatare some of those situations?
Maybe it's right aftersomebody's broken my self.
Maybe it's right before a matchand I'm feeling anxious or
nervous.
Maybe it's some other timing.

(22:34):
Can I start to write, thinkabout what are the situations
and can I actually write downwhat are some of the things I'm
saying to myself?
And sometimes, when somebodyhas written down some of those
thoughts or has you know whenthe act of writing it down and
actually reading it back, youcan start to realize, okay,
maybe some of these things I'msaying to myself maybe they feel

(22:56):
like tough love in the moment,but as I'm reading them now, I
don't know if these are actuallyhelping me.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
So I think, yeah, having some sort of way to maybe
analyze what are our thoughts,what are some of the things that
I'm saying to myself, and if Irecognize that they're not
helping me, or some of themaren't helping me, can I start a
process of trying to come upwith an intention.
How do I wanna talk to myselfat Deuce Point, you know?
How do I wanna talk to myselfin a tiebreaker?

(23:28):
Can I plan some of that out?
And it doesn't mean I'm gonnabe perfect and use that all the
time, but I think it does buildsome awareness in terms of how
we talk to ourself.
And then I think, by havingthat intention, hopefully over
time, we can start to use someof these specific things that we
want to be saying to ourselves.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, it is interesting.
I'm glad you said, though, andpointed out, that you know
obviously everyone's different,because I've always found it
interesting that someworld-class athletes talk about
that chip on their shoulder, andI view that, as you know,
growing up, someone told themthey couldn't do something,
someone sort of berated them ortalked down to them, and I can

(24:08):
see, obviously, humans goingdown two different paths, right.
One human sort of being quietand sort of you know more, like
hey, I'm not gonna speak up, I'mnot gonna do things, and this
other person, this person who'sworld-class athlete, who's
talking about this chip on theshoulder, somehow took that
negative energy and turned itinto a positive.
So I guess that's what I wassometimes trying to focus on.

(24:30):
I'm always trying to wonder ifI do get frustrated, if I do
yell, if I do those things like.
Should I actively try not to dothose things?
But I think you answered itEveryone's different.
As long as it's not negativetalk, that's gonna hurt me and
destroy my self-confidence.
I think I should use it right.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah, I think we wanna be in a place where we can
channel, where we can channelthe anger or the frustration.
You know, I think that's whatyou know, because everyone feels
angry at times.
Right, you miss an easy shot oryou're losing, you're not
playing as well as you want to.
Everyone can feel that it'sjust a matter of okay.

(25:12):
Once we feel that, what do wedecide to do about it?
Am I letting it out and am Ideciding to throw my racket or
swearing at myself?
Or am I able to somehow channelthat frustration into greater
focus or greater motivation?
Okay, I'm frustrated, but Ireally wanna find a way to get

(25:33):
to win.
Or I'm frustrated, but I'mgonna use that to try to feel
even more focused in this nextpoint.
So I think when it can bechanneled, then it can be
beneficial.
When the anger is sort oftaking over you and you're out

(25:53):
of control, that's when I thinkwe want to be.
That's what we want to avoid.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Do you have any sort of tips on?
I've been hitting with mywife's really playing a lot of
league lately and she'stechnically a 3.0 and you know
those ratings too right,obviously okay, and so she's a
3.0, she plays some 3.5 league.
But I've been hitting with herand her friends more and one of
the things I notice is obviouslybut I think this is everyone In

(26:20):
practice we're loose andsometimes in the match people
will revert to what's safe.
I think in sometimes safe isn'tthe best stroke, like we might
go back to a slice when weshouldn't or things like that,
and I think that's justnervousness or maybe not
trusting ourselves.
Is there sort of something thatwe can do in the match at that

(26:42):
moment to sort of get past that?

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, no, I think it's a great question and I
think it's an experience thatmost tennis players maybe all
tennis players experience.
I think there's differentthings.
I mean, I think there's thingsthat we can do relating to
physical tension, and then Ithink there's things more on the
mental side.
So I think something likebreathing and being really

(27:09):
intentional with our breath,both on court and off court, can
do a lot to help us releasesome of that tension.
There's more and more athletesnow talking about meditation no
back joke of it.
Chigashvian Tech, biancaAndrescu.
I know LeBron does a lot of.
One of his big sponsors is Calmand he talks about meditating.

(27:33):
So I think something likemeditation can be really helpful
.
There's also something calledprogressive muscle relaxation,
or PMR, which is something thatpeople can do.
They can even try this now asthey're listening where
essentially they're tensing andloosening different parts,
different muscle groups.
So you can start at your feetand sort of curl your toes.

(27:55):
If you're sitting with yourfeet on the ground, curl your
toes towards your heels and sortof hold that tension, keep
holding it and then release it.
Then you can do the same thingwith your calves and tense your
calves, hold it and release itand then you're off, I'm like
doing it right now.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
As you're talking to you, I was like yeah, good, good
.

Speaker 3 (28:16):
And you could sort of work your way up your body that
way and what that does is itreally gives you a tool that you
can use where, if I'm feelingtense, hopefully first of all
through using a tool like that,I could start to recognize where
, physically, is that tension,is that held in a certain part
of my body?
And then, number two, if I'mfeeling that way, I have the

(28:40):
ability hopefully to loosen, totense and then loosen up that
part of my body in the moment.
So I think some combination ofbreathing and progressive muscle
relaxation can be reallyhelpful tools physically.
And then, I think, mentally, Ithink players wanna be clear
about how they wanna play and Ithink everyone falls into this

(29:03):
trap, myself included.
But you know, cause we'repracticing, we're not afraid to
miss, and then we're gonna matchand all of a sudden there's
more consequences.
Okay, I'm thinking about myNTRP rating, or I'm thinking
about my UTR rating, or I'mthinking about who's gonna see
this score.
And all of a sudden, ratherthan folks saying, hey, I hit

(29:26):
this nice forehand with topspin,you know, okay, maybe I slice
it cause maybe I don't wannamiss it.
So you know, I think it's veryeasy to shift in those moments,
I think, if we can have a clearidea for how we play it, our
best, or the type of player thatwe're trying to become and
striving to become, I think themore clear we can be about those

(29:48):
things, the better.
And then we can, you know,really try to judge ourselves at
the end of the match and say,okay, how well did I do with my
goal?
I was trying to play in thisway, how did I do with that?
And, you know, hopefully thenext time around I can do a
little better with that.
And just trying to, you know,keep moving in that direction,

(30:11):
based on yeah, based on what ourintention is in terms of how
we're trying to play, and thenhaving some sort of reflection
process Maybe it's journaling,maybe it's something else, maybe
it's a, you know, conversationwhere we're able to reflect on
our performance and, you know,measure ourselves based on what
we were trying to do and comparethat to what we actually did

(30:35):
out there.
And I think having some sort ofprocess like that helps us to
make improvements over time.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
So you've talked about this a few times, but I'm
assuming some sort ofself-reflection, some sort of,
like you know, discussion, ordissecting your own match after
the match is helpful too, thenright, I mean, I guess, when I
said self-reflection, I thinkI'm referencing what you were
talking about earlier, which was, you know, you talk to people

(31:05):
after their match.
So what is that talk about?
I mean, what are we talkingabout after the match?

Speaker 3 (31:13):
I think there's different things that we can
talk about after a match.
I mean, there's a very simplereflection exercise called a
three, two, one that I willsometimes use to at least start
the conversation, which is threethings that went well, two
things that we want to improveupon and one thing that we
learned.

(31:33):
And I think, just even beingable to start here we're just
saying, you know, because Ithink oftentimes after a match
we feel like, you know, thatdidn't go well at all or nothing
went well.
So I think, can we at leastfind certain things that we did
well out there?
Maybe it's, you know, maybe Ihad great sportsmanship, or
maybe I started off the matchwith a good attitude, or maybe,

(31:59):
you know, maybe I had goodeffort.
So, you know, can we at leastidentify what those things are
that went well and then, youknow, be able to focus on some
of these other pieces?
But I think what it does is itcan help us sort of put things
into perspective a little bitand rather than just focusing on
, you know, one aspect of ourperformance, we can start to see

(32:22):
the bigger picture and start tohave more, maybe a fair
understanding of how we actuallyplayed.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, and I like the fact that number one was what
was it again?
The learn, say the.

Speaker 3 (32:35):
So, three things that we did well, two things we want
to improve upon and one thingthat we learned.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah, none of that is really negative.
I mean two things we want toimprove upon.
I guess someone can come at itwith sort of a negative or even
number one, something that welearned can be like oh I screwed
up on this and here's what Iwant to change.
But I like how it's all sort ofphrased in a positive way.
But obviously, you know,through failure we learn a lot,
you know, obviously.
And some people say we learnmore through failure.

(33:03):
So that's interesting, that'sgood, I like that.
So is there?
What I'm trying to figure outtoo is is there some sort of way
of recognizing when I'm at mypeak mental state?
And the thing I've talked aboutwith some other people is I've
personally found myself at theheight of my tennis ability,

(33:29):
when I'm playing the best.
There's this feeling of I'maware of everything going on
around me, but I can sort ofdismiss it in a weird way.
It doesn't really matter to me,like there can be a kid
screaming to my left or a dogbarking, and I can acknowledge
it, but it doesn't bug me.
And then also, coupled withthat, I found that when I'm and

(33:55):
I wanna say this right, but whenI'm a little, I think it's
confident slash cocky, not rude,but there's this confidence
slash cockiness where I havethis ability to sort of I can
speak up when someone calls aball out.
That's in.
You know, I have this abilityof being different and other
times I'll just be quiet, right,and I feel like there's this.

(34:17):
I'm trying to find this peakmental spot where I go.
Oh, that's when I play best.
Is there anything like that?
Or obviously it's allindividual based.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah, no, I think it is individual in a certain way.
I mean, I think for most peopleit's when they play best is
sort of a combination of beingaware of what's happening around
them and within them, but alsohaving the ability to sort of

(34:54):
decide what we do with it.
So I think, if we think aboutmindfulness and I know I brought
up meditation earlier I sort ofthink of it as that awareness
of the moment, what's happeningright now, what's happening
around me?
Do I hear that kid screamingand crying?
Do I?

(35:16):
Are there certain things thatI'm seeing around me?
Can I really connect to mysenses in the moment, in terms
of what's going on around me,but also what's going on within
me?
How do I feel?
What thoughts am I having, whatare the emotions that I'm
experiencing?
So, can I really connect withthe moment, which I think is a

(35:36):
challenge?
I think, as athletes, andespecially tennis players, as a
sport where there's instantfeedback, we win a point or we
lose a point.
There's no in between.
So I think it's very easy tolook backwards and be upset
about things that have happenedin the past, or look forwards
and start to think about what ifI win today?

(35:56):
What if I lose today, hope Idon't, you know, whatever, hope
I don't lose this Verychallenging to stay present.
So I think that awareness ofthe moment is key, but then it's
also, you know, what am I gonnado with it?
Okay, I have this awareness, I'mable to, you know, be in the
present, at least for a periodof time, and then what can I do

(36:17):
about it?
How can I go into this nextpoint, you know, and really use
that?
Or do I want to be, you know,maybe in a different state,
where I'm, you know, a littlebit less locked in and focused,
where maybe I wanna be a littlebit looser, because maybe I'm,
you know, some people have theexperience of maybe feeling a

(36:38):
little bit too much in themoment.
Or you know too, you know, Ithink, in a certain way that can
lead to some nerves or someanxiety when you're, you know,
too fixated on what's happeningright now.
You know, sometimes people needto just take a step back and
maybe, you know, find those waysto loosen up and not to take

(37:00):
this next point so seriously,because I think sometimes it can
feel like that next point isthat everything in the world you
know that everything rides onthis next point or that it's
life and death, but it's goodyou know recognizing.
Okay, this is just one pointand if I can I take a step back
and just, you know, put thingsinto perspective a little bit.

(37:21):
So I think that was a long,long answer to your question,
but I hope that kind of touchedon some of the pieces that you
were.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
No, it definitely does.
I mean the thing I was.
I always think about, you know,david Goggins, obviously big
name and he invented Goggins,right.
So he talks about this, right,his name's David Goggins, but he
always thinks of Goggins asthis different person.
And so I sometimes I literallythink about this.
I sometimes think should I gointo the match sort of being

(37:51):
this other person?
If I can recognize that whenI'm playing best it's when I am
a little confident, slash, cockyAgain, not rude.
I don't ever want to be rude toanyone, even outside of tennis,
right, I want to be veryrespectful towards everyone.
But there is this thing wherewhen I cross the line of I want

(38:13):
to win, and then that translatesinto me being sort of this
different person where I won'tbe pushed around.
I don't know what it is.
I don't know if I grew up awayor if I was pushed around, if I
stayed quiet or if I was pushedaround, I pushed back.
But I guess what I'm trying tofigure out is should I go into
the match trying to invent thatGoggins personality of?

(38:36):
Ok, I need to be someonedifferent today, start out being
cocky, start out being a littlemore confident than usual,
instead of finding it during thematch.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Does that question make sense?

Speaker 3 (38:50):
I think it does and I think and I like the brought up
David Goggins, I'm a big fan ofhim as well yeah, I think if we
can recognize when we play best, ok, I play.
You were saying you play bestin that state where maybe there
is a little bit of thatconfidence or even a little bit
of cockiness.
I don't see anything wrong withthat.

(39:11):
Can you try to bring about thatstate from the start,
intentionally?
Right, so it's OK.
How can I be intentional withmy preparation leading up to
this match so that I can givemyself the best possible chance
to start this match with themindset that I want, so that I'm
not having to wait a few gamesinto the match to hopefully get

(39:36):
to that point?
If I can be intentional with itfrom the start, I think I give
myself a much better chance toactually make that happen.
Because I think, if not, if I doplay best in that state where
that's a little bit confidentand a little bit cocked, and
then I fall, I go down threelove, maybe it's a lot harder to

(39:59):
get into that state.
I've started in that place,whether I'm up or behind.
Hopefully I'm able to keep thatmentality going and then I can
hopefully implement someproblem-solving and think about
OK, why is the score three?
Love, what's happening rightnow?
Is my opponent just beating me?
Is there something I could bedoing better?

(40:19):
What's going on?
But hopefully we've at leaststarted with that point of that
mentality that we want.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, ok, good, I want to go back to something too
, because we talked aboutvisualization.
One of the podcasts I did waswith my friend, bobby Kilty.
He's on another league out here, a 5.0 rated player about a
half hour away from me, and hewas a World Series champ.
He came in for a pinch hit in2007.

(40:47):
Didn't play the whole WorldSeries, he was on Boston Red Sox
, but he came in in game fourand pretty much hit the
game-winning home run First atbat of the series in game four.
Hasn't hit, hasn't been in thefield at all, came in as a pinch
hitter and first pitch,literally hit a home run and
ended up sealing the game forthem for the 2007 World Series.

(41:07):
He talked about in the podcastwith him visualization and it
was, I guess, not surprising,but at the time I was a little
like wow, my eyebrows rose.
He said before getting up tobat he visualized hitting that
home run four to 500 times, Ithink was his quote.
Just that day, that's all hesaid.

(41:29):
Was he visualized?
And I guess this is the backroom stuff that I don't know
about baseball, but he said heknew if this particular pitcher
comes up at this particular timethey're going to pinch hit him
and it's exactly what happened.
So he was able to really focushis visualization on one
particular pitcher in oneparticular moment and so,

(41:52):
getting to that at bat at thatmoment, I guess he hit the home
run like 500 times prior to thatduring the day, which is sort
of how he described it.
So can you, I guess, moreexpound on visualization, how
important it is?

Speaker 3 (42:07):
It's extremely important and I love that
example.
I hadn't heard that example ofhim, but I think for you know,
for so many athletes,visualization is a really key
critical tool because you knowwhat, what it does, what
essentially visualization is ismental rehearsal.

(42:28):
So I'm mentally rehearsing whatI want to happen in a
particular situation and I thinkyou know that we can do that in
different ways and that can bejust a positive experience.
Like, okay, I'm going up to theplate and I'm, you know,
hitting a home run here and and,and, and it sounds like he Did

(42:49):
that and you know, and picturedhimself in that situation and
Rehearsed that over and over andover again.
And then, you know, there's alot of research that shows that
when we do that, we, our brain,doesn't necessarily know the
difference.
It feels like we've actuallybeen in that situation.
So I think that's one way to doit.
I think another way is we canvisualize ourselves in tough

(43:11):
situations and challengingsituations.
We're sticking with thebaseball example.
Maybe it's an o2 count, for ifwe're in a tennis example, maybe
we're serving at love 40 orit's, you know, we're down in
the set or whatever it is andwe're picturing ourselves in a
tough situation, but we'reVisualizing ourselves coming
through it and being successfuland thinking about how do we

(43:34):
Implement our tools that we havein that tough situation.
I think a couple things that Ilike to suggest in terms of
making visualization more feelmore realistic, because I think
sometimes it doesn't, especiallywhen someone's just starting it
.
It, you know, they close theireyes and it maybe it doesn't
feel so realistic.
So a couple things that I liketo suggest, or really try to get

(43:56):
the senses involved, you know.
So not just what am I seeing?
You know, not just okay, I'mwatching myself play a point the
way that I want to, but can Iget these different sense
involved?
It senses involved.
Can I think about the sound ofthe ball?
Can I think about the sound ofmy feet, you know in mice, my
sneakers against the ground?
Can I?
Are there other sounds?

(44:17):
Sounds from the court overbirds chirping, you know how?
About the sense of feel?
Can I visualize the feel of thegrip in my hand?
Can I visualize the way thatthe ball feels when I make
contact with it?
I'm about to serve.
Can I visualize the fuzz of theball in my hand?
You know, smell and taste arealways a little tougher.
Yeah maybe there's a smell offreshly cut grass.

(44:40):
Maybe, if we're playing indoors, there's a familiar smell of
the indoor tennis facility.
I grew up in Connecticut andthere's.
You know, we play indoors for agood portion of the year and
you know that's a familiar smell, for for many people.
You know taste.
Maybe there's water or Gatoradethat you're having on the bench

(45:02):
.
Can we visualize that?
Or the taste of sweat.
So when we can get thesedifferent senses involved and
also emotion, so maybe there's achallenging emotion, like you
know, anxiety or anger orwhatever it is At love 40, but
then maybe we come through itand then what's the emotion then
?
Maybe it's Excitement, you know, maybe it's something like that

(45:25):
.
So you know, trying to getthese senses and these emotions
involved Makes our visualizationfeel more real, feel more
realistic.
Oftentimes I'll work withathletes and we'll write out a
script.
So it's, you know, them in asituation, though they're
writing it out in third personand they'll record it and they
can close their eyes and listento their own voice of them, you

(45:47):
know, talking through step bystep by step, what happens in
that situation, how they getfrom love 40 to winning that
game, how they turn that matcharound when they were feeling
all that anger Earlier in thatmatch.
So I think there's differentways to do it.
You know, maybe someone'sworking on their serve.
They're trying to hit theirserve in a new way and they can

(46:07):
visualize themselves over andover and over again Hitting that
serve in that new way.
You're essentially gettingthose mental repetitions or
rehearsing that Over again, justthe way that Bobby did.
So I love that example.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yeah, and that actually perfectly help goes
into this next thing that I gotfrom your website, which I think
is obviously easy to Agree with, which is, in order to succeed,
we must first believe that wecan, and so I think I got that
from a post in 2020 on yourInstagram page.
But to me, that's sort of thesame thing with this

(46:41):
visualization stuff, which is,if we can't see ourselves
Succeeding, if we can't seeourselves Maybe even doing the
shot that we want we'reattempting to do During the
match, we're not going to beable to do it, and so I've
always been so Amazed at thestory of Roger Bannister, this
runner in 1954, the first personto break the four-minute

(47:05):
barrier for the mile, and so Ialways found the story very
interesting that Once he did it,many people started doing it
after, and I I'm only bringingthat up to Hopefully combine the
two, which is the visualizationIn order to succeed, we have to
believe we can.
Somehow the world started tobelieve that they can break this

(47:27):
four-mile minute barrier oncethey saw another human do it,
and I found it so interesting.
Just last night, I looked upand I wonder when the next
person ran a Sub-4-minute mile?
It was 46 days later, whensomeone broke Roger Bannister's
record, and so everyone juststarted breaking.
High schoolers now break itobviously really top high

(47:49):
schoolers but people arebreaking that record.
I don't want to say every day,but a lot, and so I Guess, just
to stay on the subject a littlemore, how important is it to
believe, and is that isconnected to visualization, then
right.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
Definitely.
I think that self-belief pieceis key, but I think it's a real
challenge for most people.
Hmm, I think we can even lookat this at the professional
level.
You know somebody like JoeKovic right there certain times
where he seems unbeatable,completely unbeatable, and then
you see, you know the Wimbledonfinal, and Alcaraz, in an

(48:27):
absolute battle, beats him infive sets.
Now, does that change thebelief of other top 10, top 20
players that not that they'regonna beat him, because, yeah, I
think it's a it's a tall task,but you know that that it's
possible, that they can do it.
Just like you know, whensomebody sees Roger Bannister

(48:47):
break that for four minute mileNot that they're gonna break
that four minute mile, but atleast that it's possible.
And I think, when it comes toself-belief, we want to.
When we go up and play anybodyand I think this is true for
people that are listening tothis podcast Whoever you're
playing, you don't necessarilywant you.
I don't think you necessarilywant to think that you, you will

(49:08):
beat this person.
I think if we go in to match isthinking I will beat this
person.
I think we're, in many ways,setting ourselves up for I Don't
want to say setting ourselvesup for failure, but I think
we're.
We're potentially making thingstougher, we're giving ourselves
the.
There's the potential of Ofoverlooking an opponent if I

(49:30):
think, okay, I will beat thisperson.
Maybe I don't take them asseriously, maybe I don't do all
my preparation the way that Ineed to, maybe I don't move my
feet the way I need to.
So instead of I will beat thisperson, I think can we go in and
say I can't.
I know I can.
Okay, whether this person israted, as you know, a point

(49:52):
higher than me, a half pointhigher than me, whether this
person is Around the same ratingor lower than me, whatever it
is, feeling like I can Compete,I can beat this person, I can be
successful here.
It doesn't mean that I will,doesn't mean that I should, and
I think a lot of times peopleuse words like I should beat
this person.
I'm supposed to beat thisperson, I need to, but instead

(50:15):
of that Saying I can't, I know Ican, it's a matter of you know.
Will I be able to Play at thatlevel?
Will I be able to utilize myPhysical and mental tools to
make it happen?
But I know that I can, and Ithink that gives a certain sense
of confidence, and then it'sjust a matter of, you know,
being able to Bring your gameout.

(50:37):
And, yeah, make it.
And execute.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah, exactly, I like that.
No, that is interesting becauseI, when you said you know, it's
not always maybe not the bestchoice to say I will, I will I
was a little like, hmm, I wonderwhere he's going with this.
But I really like that.
Actually, that I can is thispositive approach that I have
the ability to, and now I haveto recognize that I have to

(50:59):
execute.
That's, that's awesome.
I like that, you know.
And you touched on somethingtoo that I wrote a little note
on, which was I wrote downLosing ten tie breaks in a row.
Winning ten tie breaks in a row,and the reason I'm bringing
that up now, as you talked aboutthis Jokovic thing, where
people Jokovic, I think his tiebreak record was ridiculous.
He was like unstoppable in tiebreaks and that has to be mental

(51:22):
, right, that just has to bemental.
Because what, why is he so?
You know, hundred percent orwhatever the crazy tie break
thing was.
In the last half year, wedidn't lose any tie breaks and
I'm wondering how destructive orhow helpful is it to To go
through success or to go throughbad times, like if I lost the
last ten tie breaks I got into.

(51:43):
That's going to screw with mementally.
I'm really wondering how tobreak that and I'm also sort of
wondering, should I even care?
Like I don't know.
I'm trying, I'm struggling withthis, like, if we get into
these bad habits kind of thing,right, how do we break those?

Speaker 3 (52:02):
And losing is a habit , sort of too, I think losing
can definitely be a habit and Ithink the expectation of losing
is Can.
It can be a real challenge herewhen if we've, if we have lost
the last ten tie breaks you know, when we get into a tiebreaker
it's it's often oh, here we goagain.
Yeah, or we, we, we, you knowwe.

(52:25):
We Feel that it's not going togo well and we expect that, and
then it can become aself-fulfilling prophecy in a
certain way.
I see the same thing with doucepoints, when people play no ad
and some people are saying, oh,I hate playing no ad.
I know those situations andit's like you know, I would.
I would question people to say,okay, well, how are you talking

(52:46):
to yourself Going into a doucepoint, are you talking to
yourself and it's saying thatyou're expecting to lose it, or
are you focusing on okay, whatdo I need to do in this point?
So I think a Lot of it is basedon those expectations and I
think, yeah, in terms of maybeturning things around.
I think it's all you know and Ithink this connects to

(53:09):
self-talk.
I think it's a lot aboutcatching ourselves noticing it.
I don't think it's the end ofthe world if we use certain
phrases or certain words thataren't the most helpful, but I
think we want to at leastrecognize it and catch it in the
moment when we are using it.
Okay, you know, if I'm about toget into a tiebreaker and I say,
oh, here we go again.
You've lost the last 10.

(53:30):
Yeah, you know this isn't gonnago well, you know, can I just
notice?
Can I notice and catch myselfsaying those things and then
hopefully then I can introduceMaybe some more effective
self-talk in that moment.
But I think that can onlyhappen once we're aware that
we're saying it.
Once we catch ourselves talkingin that way, then we can start

(53:51):
to introduce something that'smaybe more productive in that
moment.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's so important and the more we talk,
the more I see, or at least forme, after this phone call and
Prior to matches.
And you know, when I have offtime I'm gonna intentionally try
to visualize a match.
And I've never thought about,like you said, the sounds, the

(54:16):
feel of the grip.
I've never went that far.
I have went as far as one timeTried to visualize a full match
in my brain.
It was really tough actually,but I'm gonna try to do what you
said.
I know it's gonna be helpful, Ireally do.
And oh, you know, what's funnyis I wrote this quote down too.
This was an Aristotle quote,but he said we are about, we are

(54:39):
what we repeatedly do.
Excellence, then, is not an actbut a habit.
The only reason I bring that uphere is because we were talking
about this losing could be ahabit, winning could be a habit,
and I'm just really trying tofind that way of, I guess,
continuing excellence, you know,seeing a positive and somehow

(55:06):
continuing it and making it ahabit, and because sometimes we
have these like flashes ofAmazement and excellence in a
match and then I sort of forgetabout it.
It's like why, man, six monthsago I was playing so good, what
the heck happened, and I don'tknow what happened.
To be honest and I'm trying, Imight just be the the answer
might just be to visualize or toself reflect after the match,

(55:27):
which I've never done, and soI'm really wondering how to keep
that habit going.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Yeah, I mean I think with with both of those, with
something like visualization andwith something like that self
reflection piece.
Yeah, and I love that quotefrom Aristotle it's how can we
get to that point of doing itrepeatedly?
And I think you know you beingable to write out, you know what
am I doing before a match andwhat am I doing after a match.

(55:57):
So maybe what I'm doing beforea match is I'm doing some
breathing techniques for a fewminutes and maybe then I'm
visualizing a couple ofdifferent things.
Maybe I'm visualizing myselfplaying points the way that I
want to.
Some people will visualizetheir highlight reel or even
their best matches and try tovisualize some of that.
You know, maybe there's someother behaviors that we want to

(56:21):
do.
Maybe I want to review myselftalking, how I want to talk to
myself out there.
So can I write out some ofthose key things that I want to
do before a match and also writeout some of those key things
that I want to do after a match?
And I think the biggest one onthe mental side is the
reflection.
But you know, maybe I can writeout a few things I want to do
after a match.
Maybe I want to do somethingphysical, like foam rolling,

(56:45):
maybe I want to do somestretching, maybe I want to do
some, you know, some reflection,right, and can I write all that
all out?
But also think about when Ithink with the reflection piece.
Sometimes that takes place toosoon, you know.
I think sometimes it's rightafter a match and people start
to try to reflect and they're,you know, emotional and they try

(57:09):
to reflect on their match toosoon.
I see this a lot with juniorplayers, you know.
Sometimes it's that car ridehome with the parents and they,
you know, tense because you knowthey're upset and maybe the
parent was watching and theparent noticed certain things.
They're trying to get into thatconversation and there's a lot
of emotion there.
And I think the same thing canhappen with, you know, with

(57:30):
league players, where you knowyou play a match, maybe you lose
it or maybe you didn't play aswell, and you're frustrated and
rather than giving yourself thatspace to, you know, to digest
first and to process it first,you start trying to reflect on
that match, maybe a little bittoo soon, and then it, you know

(57:51):
it hasn't quite, you haven'tquite gotten to the point where
you're ready to do that yet.
So I think plan, being able toplan out and write out when you
do these things Can, number one,make these tools more effective
, and number one and number two,you can be more consistent with
them.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
You know, what's funny is I make the joke when I
bring people on the podcast.
I'm really just trying toimprove myself.
It's not really for thelisteners, it's just for me.
But you know it's a joke butpart real.
So let's focus on me for asecond.
So what I got out of thispodcast really and I think it's
obviously very helpful was Ineed to establish a routine
prior to the match, and I'vealways found that that routine

(58:32):
might include music, mightinclude some sort of way of, you
know, getting me in the rightmood and eating well, things
like that, but also a routineduring which I've never thought
about.
So during the match, I need toestablish a routine during the
match, in between points, okay,and then including breathing and
visualization, like during thematch, in between points, and

(58:54):
then after the match, which I'venever done, I guess I've, in a
way, probably probably did badself-reflection or bad talk like
why did I do that?
Or something like that.
But I need to dissect, diagnosemyself.
After the match Self-reflection, what did I do right, what can
I learn from during the match,what can I do better next time?

(59:16):
I think that's a pretty goodmap for me.
In a way, I probably got somefree advice from you today.
Right, obviously, but that'sthe point.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
Absolutely and I think just also being able to
keep, you know, recognize thateach match is a learning
experience.
And I know that can maybe soundcliche and I get that, but you
know each time you go out for amatch it's not going to be the.
You know it's not going to bethe last match you play.
Yeah.

(59:48):
So can each match be practicefor your future matches?
Can each match be a learningexperience?
Can we, you know, try to put inplace a really nice system like
what you just described before,during and after, and try to
learn from it?
Okay, how did that work thistime?
Okay, maybe certain aspects ofthe system worked really well.
Maybe I didn't prepare the waythat I wanted to.

(01:00:10):
Okay, how can I, you know, whenI reflect, can I reflect on
that piece as well, so that nexttime around, hopefully, I can
do that piece better?
So, I think, just being able toview it as a learning experience
and frame it that way, ratherthan feeling like everything
comes down, you know, everythingis based on this one match.

(01:00:30):
I think, you know, sometimesit's easy for tennis players to
sort of have this tunnel visionand feel like each match we play
is just the most important, youknow, so critically important.
But I think that puts a lot ofpressure on us and I think a
great way to take pressure offis to recognize hey, this is one
match, this feels important.

(01:00:51):
Now I'm going to try to do myabsolute best, but I will play
other matches.
You know, this is this match,is practice for my next match
and I want to learn as much as Ican from this match and I think
going through that sort ofprocess can really help with
that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
And how important is it to go through matches to put
yourself in those tough spots,right?
I mean, how important is that?
Obviously, it's different frompractice, right?
Like we were saying at thebeginning, there's a looseness
in the practice.
There's no consequence of thebig point being lost if we miss
that forehand because we're justin drills.

(01:01:29):
But how important is it to putus in match tough situations
from a mental side?

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
I think it's.
I think it's critical, I reallydo.
I mean, I think you know thethe senses of nervousness or
anxiety.
You know the ups and downs ofemotions that you experience
during a match.
It's you know.
I think it's tough to replicateit during practice.
I think there's ways to do itwhere we can try to, you know,

(01:01:59):
add pressure to practice, but Ithink it really has a very
different feeling and I thinkyou know there's.
It really is a skill to be ableto play well in those higher
pressure moments, and I thinkthat's you know, in order to
build on that skill, it reallyneeds to be practice.
So I think it's.
It's really, really critical.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's so true and and that's
why I enjoy it's funny, becauseleague play it's all about fun,
but everyone's like really intoit, right, and so like I really
enjoy that part of it.
Like when it becomes the league, it's like everyone's so like
pumped and but I tell everyonelike that's the fun of it, like
to get into that spot whereyou're nervous or where you're

(01:02:36):
excited, and we just don't getthat from Saturday morning,
doubles with friends, kind ofthing.
You know, it's just totallydifferent.
Even though we're still playinga full match, you know, on the
weekend, but until you get intothat tournament or league, it's
a totally different world.
That, I think, just elevatesyour game and your mental side
once you put yourself in thosepositions.
You know, I forgot to ask youat the beginning.

(01:02:59):
I'll sort of maybe end it withthis, but you know, what are you
doing right now in life?
Like, what do you do for funoutside of this stuff?
You have a family, other sportsrunning.
What are you doing over there?

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
Yeah, so yeah, well, thanks, Thanks for asking.
I mean I so I moved to Boulder,colorado, in December and you
know, really like life here.
Yeah, my girlfriend and I movedhere in December.
We sort of followed my brotherand his fiance at the time, now
wife, who moved out there a fewmonths before us, and really

(01:03:34):
liking life out here.
I mean there's a, you know,there's, I think, just a great
lifestyle there's.
You know, we're near themountains you know a lot of
hiking things like that, tryingto play some more tennis.
I do, I do quite a bit oftravel.
I you know I was at RolandGarros earlier this year.
Really.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
That's so cool.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
Yeah, so I do quite a bit of travel, some related to
tennis, some not.
You know I like to travelwithin the US, outside the US,
and you know that's definitely agreat thing.
You know that's definitely areal passion of mine and, yeah,
just really, you know, reallylike the, I mean really just
passionate about, you know, alot of the work that I do in

(01:04:16):
terms of, you know, helpingpeople sort of overcome whatever
is getting in their way interms of their performance.
You know, sometimes it is aphysical thing, sometimes it's a
mental piece, but just tryingto, yeah, find ways to, you know
, be able to analyze yourperformance and, you know, move,
move past whatever is gettingin your way.

(01:04:37):
So there's definitely, you know, that that excites me.
And then I think, yeah, some ofthese other pieces that I do,
you know, some of these otherthings that I do on a daily,
weekly, monthly basis in termsof tennis, I do some running as
well.
I ran a half marathon here inBoulder a few months back, which
was just a lot of fun.
I didn't quite as much as Iwanted to, but I really enjoyed

(01:04:59):
it nonetheless.
So, you know, I think, thetennis, the running, the travel,
you know, I think all of itsort of fits in in a certain way
when I'm meeting with somebody,because I feel like in a
certain way I have more thingsthat I can talk to them about or
I can, you know, makeconnections in different areas
that connect to you know, to thework that I do.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Yeah, and if someone wants to contact you, is it best
through Instagram or just callyour number on your website?

Speaker 3 (01:05:27):
Yeah, there's my phone numbers on my website.
My email is there as well.
My website is tiebreakerpsych.
Yeah, instagram is there.
I also have my you know mypodcast, the co-host of TennisIQ
podcast on the mental side ofthe game, along with Dr Brian
Lomax.
But, yeah, people can reach outthrough my website.

(01:05:47):
I offer a free introductorysession if anyone's interested
in you know, meeting for 30 to45 minutes and, yeah, learning a
little bit more and seeing ifit's a good fit.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Cool.
I probably I don't know.
Sometimes I don't want to askthis, but do you want to talk
about your fees, like how doesthis work?
Is it sort of a per sessionthing, or do you want to bring
that up right now, or does itdepend on the person and what
they need?

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
Yeah, well, I offer some different packages.
Again, I'm happy to sort ofdiscuss that individually with
people, but it's you know, Ioffer again.
I have that first session, thatfree first session, and then I
have different packages of five,10 and 15 sessions.
I would say.
In terms of pricing, the price,the price that's similar to a

(01:06:36):
to a private, private tennislesson.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:06:40):
So so yeah, a similar sort of pricing there, and you
know it's a little bit of adifference.
If somebody does, you knowbased on which package they do
five, 10, 15 sessions and yeah,so so kind of depends in that
way.
But you know, happy to discussthat further with people and
just yeah, kind of you knowfigure out what works best for
for each person.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
Yeah, and that's cool .
And then it can all usually beby zoom, obviously right,
because we're everywhere in thecountry.
Okay, cool, that's so good.
Well, I'm, I'm definitely goingto keep you in mind.
I promise I'm going to try.
Not try, I'm going to do asession with you, so we'll,
we'll do some stuff, becausethis was interesting for me.
So I really appreciated, josh.
I like to keep these around anhour to an hour seven, so I mean

(01:07:23):
that's perfect for me.
Just thank you.
I don't know what else to sayto end this, but did I miss
anything?
Is there a hand that you shouldhave said this one little thing
that we missed, or we just sortof covered everything?

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
I think we're covered a lot.
Yeah, I think we covered a lotand yeah, let's keep in touch.
I'll definitely take you up onthat.
We'll, we'll do a session andand yeah, we'll, we'll be in
touch and I'm eager and excitedto hear how, how it goes once
you implement.
You know, some of these thingswe're talking about routines and
visualization and some of thesethings.
It would be great to hear how,how that goes for you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Yeah, appreciate it, josh.
Well, thank you.
I'm going to hit the recordrecording off here and we'll
stay on for a second, but Iappreciate it.
Thank you so much, thanks.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
Thanks.