July 15, 2023 • 73 mins
Join me and my guest, Joe Ballewag, as we take a thrilling journey into the world of tennis. Joe brought with him a wealth of wisdom and insights from coaching tennis, to participating in prestigious tournaments, and being a captain of many USTA 4.5 leagues over the years. As we dive deep, we unravel the puzzle-like nature of tennis and how it compares to other sports like boxing and karate, and how a player's mentality has an impact on their game.
Our conversation took an introspective turn as we delved into the beauty of tennis not being solely about winning. We mused over the importance of understanding opponents' strengths and weaknesses, and how the sport serves as an excellent platform for character building. As a parent and a coach, I shared my experiences of the challenges and rewards of nurturing a child in tennis and in life. The topic of intrinsic motivation sparked a fascinating dialogue as we explored the correlation with participation awards and how a simple compliment and support can outshine a trophy.
Our conversation wound down with a heartwarming reflection on the friendships fostered through tennis, the mentors we've had and the power of conversation in creating meaningful relationships. So, come along with us on this exciting journey and delve into the captivating world of sports with us.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You are listening to your League Tennis Podcast with
your host, anthony Radonia.
Anthony is an avid weekendwarrior tennis player, just like
you.
Every week, he'll beinterviewing new and exciting
guests that will not only differin experience and skill level,
but also in age and physicalability.
Your League Tennis Podcast isabout making you a better tennis
(00:26):
player, whether you're abeginner or have been playing
for years, in your 20s or inyour 60s.
Now here is your host, anthonyRadonia.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
All right Joe.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
It's quite a crowd right there.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, I know Everyone says that they're always
surprised how big the crowd is.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I didn't know you had so many people following this
podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, everyone came out just to hear you tonight,
joe, so I'm happy.
First of all, what's the hat?
I'm going to say the La Jolla,that's the father-son one you
just did.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, it was the most recent La Jolla championship.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
That's cool.
It's like a hundred andsomething.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I don't know.
I think it may actually say ahundred plus years, yeah, 1917.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Wow they are.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
yeah, that's a well done tournament.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, I love La Jolla , La Jolla and then Ojai, like
if you've ever played Ojai orwent.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I haven't played, but I've had, because I don't know
if you knew, but I coached highschool tennis at.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Schopenhauer.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
High School one of our high schools and then Great
Oak High School, and so I wouldalways take my players out to
Ojai and coach them, but I'venever played in.
Ojai For CIF.
Yeah for the well, they have aCIF bracket there that goes
right alongside the Pac-10, nowPac-12 championships.
Yeah, Pac-12.
And then they have just aregular junior open tournament
(01:46):
at the same time too.
So there's a lot of tennis upthere, but yeah, my players
would always enter the CIFbracket Good tennis.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Oh yeah.
And then Ojai, I want to say islike 1890s or something, when
it started, something goes away,something in the 1800s, which
is a little crazy.
Do me a favor, bring in alittle closer to you Because I
can hear you good, but later on,like for Spotify, it's
sometimes a little weird.
How's that?
That sounds better, cool, well,thank you for coming.
My friend and you brought yourson.
(02:16):
They're jamming downstairs, himand my daughter.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yes, which is?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
nice, they're playing a little guitar, hopefully
having fun, oh yeah.
I hope so.
That's cool.
Okay, so let's get into yourrating, which is always the
beginning of each podcast,because obviously you're here to
talk tennis.
You're a four or five UST ratedplayer.
Yes, do you know your UTR.
I always ask this.
Some people don't, some peopledo.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, I don't, and I don't know how this may be too
much information, but howreliable it is anyway, because
my oldest son his name is thesame as mine.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
And our results often get mixed up.
And so.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
I have some college wins on my resume, even though
I've never played in collegeNice, and he's got some wins
against 50 year old guys thathe's never played as well.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Oh, hey guys and some losses on both ends.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah yeah.
So I don't know how reliable myUTR would even be.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
UTR is so crazy to me how a year ago I had no clue
about it and all the kids werealways talking about what's his
UTR.
Like I'd play a tournament andlike kids at the club would be
like, hey, what's the guy's UTRyou played?
I'm like I don't even know whatyou're talking about.
So I signed up and found out Ihad a UTR which I didn't know
about.
But it's so crazy that itchanges every pretty much almost
(03:28):
every day, no joke.
And it all depends on, like,who you played and if they beat
someone or lost someone.
If you don't beat them.
6-0, 6-1,.
If they're lower than you, yourrating can actually drop if you
win, every game matters.
Yeah, every game matters.
I kind of like the concept.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I like the idea and I'm sure they're.
I mean, it's been around nowfor years.
I'm sure they are getting allthe wrinkles out of it, but it's
a great concept.
I'm guessing you're probably.
What are you?
I don't want to undervalue you.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Take a guess, I know exactly what I meant.
Actually, I check almost everyday, even though I hate UTR.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You're in the double digits.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Nah, I was.
Are you a high nine?
I'm 9.62.
As of this morning, I was just9.9, something I was trying to
break into the 10s.
And then I lost to someonerecently and it threw me down to
a 9.6, which was crazy becausethe guy I lost to, I think, was
a high 9.2.
So I don't know how losing tosomeone who's equal to you
(04:27):
messes you up, but I don't know.
It's a complicated formula,yeah, it must be that and
Google's those are both heavilyguarded secrets and YouTube's
algorithm, or something.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah well, I would know that if my UTR was accurate
, it would not be as high asyours.
My guess is that I wouldprobably max out in the high
eights in terms of ability level.
No, and I also.
Most of the tournaments I wouldsay in the last two years that
I've played have been doublesand father's.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
And so I have not really done a lot of singles.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
They do singles and dubs, by the way, yeah, yeah, so
that, yeah, it's interesting,but I think you know how it is.
We talked to kids who are allinto it and some people just
care about it too much.
If they're playing a UTR who'sbetter than them, they assume
they're going to lose.
Yeah, and if they play UTRbelow them, they have to win or
else they'll get mad.
(05:25):
Yeah, it's like yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Nothing but stress producing.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, seriously, that's interesting.
So we've known each other, Idon't know, since 2018, 17,
maybe something around there.
Lifetimes yeah, and you'remarried.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I am married, happily married, to my high school
sweetheart.
We've been together for over 25years marriage.
Wow Over 30 years.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
When someone says high school sweetheart, that
literally means they dated inhigh school and never and I
don't know, not necessarilydidn't break up, but have still
been together.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
We've been together, since we've been together.
Wow, that's so awesome.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, I'm very blessed, Same as my parents
actually.
Yeah, my parents are 70something now and they've been
dating since high school.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
That's crazy.
What a great that's.
I'm sure they're great modelsfor you.
Yeah, how old are you?
52.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Wow, I've been dating since high school.
That is so cool.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, we grew up in the same town and,
although we didn't go to thesame high school, she went to an
all Catholic girls school, orall girls Catholic school, and I
went to a public school, andshe's two years younger than me,
but her, my brother and herwere in the same class.
Oh, okay.
In grade school.
(06:44):
My brother did not go to an allgirls Catholic school.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, I was just trying to figure that out.
That's interesting.
So you met her through yourbrother.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I met her, yeah, and our parents were friends.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Oh, and your parents were friends.
Yeah, that's so cool.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
And then, you know, just to make it even more,
probably less interesting, Herbest friend ended up marrying my
brother, and so you know it waslike this friend group yeah, oh
, that's so cool, that'sactually really cool it is.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
It's very cool, and so are you guys are good friends
or not, really.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We're.
My brother and his wife werestill together and very happily
married.
We're family, but we don't livein the same town.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So we don't see each other as much as we'd like to,
but yeah we're it's awesome.
Yeah, that's so cool.
When did you guys get married,you and your wife?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
We got married in 97.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, 97.
That's right.
Did you guys go to college?
I should be more sure aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah 1997.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Yeah, she went to college at San Jose State
University as an aviation majorand I went to college at San
Diego State University.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Aviation major, what I've never even knew.
That was a thing.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
It was, I believe, at the time, one of two females in
the program and she graduatedas an aviation major, took a lot
of math, science and mechaniclike classes, ended up getting
her single pilot license thatmarried me instead and never
(08:24):
really used it.
Wow, now she teaches.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
She's teaching grade school.
She does, yeah, so does sheever think about flying still?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I don't think so.
No, not at all, I mean, I'msure she thinks about it, but
she's very happy.
Yeah, no, I'm sure she is.
She's doing.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
That's so cool.
I always tell a story that oneof my buddies in college he was
getting his license.
I don't remember if he was likehe had to get ours.
I don't really know how it allworks, but he took me up in a.
It was literally a two-seater.
We were flying like 75 milesper hour in the air and it was
the scariest thing I've everexperienced in my life.
I couldn't believe we weregoing that slow.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
I thought all planes go 300 miles per hour or
something, I have no idea,probably in a Cessna or
something, something like that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
But I want to say it was going like 80.
Does that sound crazy or doesthat sound right?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, we just went up because I had actually never
gone up with her.
And we went up.
One of my good friends has afriend who does license or
lessons at French Valley Airport, right here, oh okay, and so he
, for her birthday, he said, hey, I'll let you guys go up with
him.
Oh, so cool.
(09:35):
And so we went up and she hadto take the controls.
It was fun on the watch.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Oh, that's so cool.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
And, yeah, it was always a passion of hers, but I
think more and it probably getsto a tennis conversation.
What I've always loved abouther, and just love about people,
is actually the experience ofbeing one of two females in a
program that was so maledominated and what that did
(10:02):
beyond just being a pilot, buthow that kind of forms you and
how it makes you who you are andtough, and how you learn how to
push through things and build acharacter and those are things
that I think.
Yeah those are the things thatthat matter, and I think it's
what we have To offer.
(10:23):
When I say we have to offer, Imean because of what I now do
for a living.
I think, it's some of thereally powerful pieces that
organized sports and school dofor people beyond just the,
beyond the winds and losses andbeyond just being involved.
It's how it sharpens and hones.
(10:46):
Yeah, character that, I think,is interesting, and it's really
what's drawn me to tennis morethan anything else, because it's
a sport that, unlike some ofthe other sports, you can do it
with one other person, so youcan keep at it, and you can do
it your entire life, and you cando it no matter what level
you're at.
I think it's one of the reasonswhy you were interested in this
podcast.
Yeah because you can.
(11:07):
You can talk to so many peoplewho are so passionate about the
sport and what the sport offersthem, and Probably never hear
the same story.
Yeah and it really doesn'tmatter the level you are, you're
always striving and trying toget better.
Yeah and it's one of the thingsthat drew me to my wife and has
always Spoken to me is how thoseexperiences so often and as I
(11:31):
talked to my own kids, theyeither make or break you, and I
think tennis has a lot of thatmake or break in it, and it's
what I love about the sport somuch so when we go through
something personally and Thingsbreak us like a lot, you know, I
mean, it happens, right, we'rehuman.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
So what is it about sports that you find like so
intriguing, that like you couldbe broken?
I guess you need to keep usingthat word and feel, like you
know, sad that about a loss andthings.
But what is it about sports?
I guess in general, before wego into tennis, that yeah that
intrigues you so much.
(12:13):
You know because of that, youknow because I I actually it's
weird.
I guess the thing I'm thinkingabout when you were talking is I
Am so happy I played sports inmy life.
I really think it shaped me.
But it's interesting as I'm notpushing my kids into it, even
though I found it so valuable inmy life.
(12:33):
But I it's hard as a parentbecause you don't want them to
get hurt, you don't want them tolose, but it's also valuable
that they go through thesethings, and so I Don't know if I
even have a question, but itwas just the things I'm thinking
about when you were talking.
It was just so Interesting tome because I'm always thinking
(12:55):
about my kids when someone'stalking about something like
that.
Yeah but why is?
Why are sports so valuable?
Then?
Because of that, I guess.
Yeah, I think it's there's One.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
They're so unpredictable, but I think, at
least in my life, one of thethings about sports is that
makes them Important is you havea goal, so there's there's
rules, there's common, there's acommon way that you engage in
(13:36):
the behaviors or in thecompetition, and then, because
there's a common way, and thenyou have a goal, and Most of the
time that goal is to win, butsometimes it, you know, as you
start to play the sport more andstart to understand the nuances
of the sport, the goals getmore complex and complicated and
they begin to become, as youplay sport more often and you
(14:04):
begin to do it Over time, Ithink the winning Becomes part
of a lot of other things thathelp to lead up to the winning,
and so I think you know, goingback to what you had, what you
talked about about kids and I'vechosen to be an educator in my
(14:27):
life, it's what I do for aliving is One of the things that
sport offers that.
I think is so unique is anopportunity for for people to
set goals and To strive toachieve those goals, and You're
(14:48):
not always going to get thegrowth at the rate and or the
level that you want, and so howdo you react to that?
How do you respond to that?
And that, I think, is whatbegins to hone and shape a
person in, in terms of who theyare and how they are when they
(15:09):
react to adversity outside ofsport, and so it's such a great
testing ground for how one dealswith hard times and adversity,
and so when you bring up yourown kids, and how you you want
them, you know, to have fun andyeah
you know, see sport for all thegreat things that it is, which I
(15:31):
think is so true for everyone,but I've always viewed it as
that and how it makes.
How do you in fact, I had thisconversation with my son today,
my youngest son.
You know, oftentimes thingsdon't go right or the way you
plan them to go.
And what a really importantpiece is, how do you react when
(15:51):
it doesn't go the way youthought it was going to go?
And that's the lesson that Ithink sport offers people better
than any other Endeavor thatI've encountered in my life.
I heard a remark the other daythat it wasn't the first time I
heard it, but it it brought itback into my mind.
(16:13):
I played a lot of baseball as akid.
I didn't get into tennis untillater on in life, and In
baseball you are the bestplayers in that sport fail Seven
out of ten times.
You know they're up to bat,yeah, and so you're failing far
more often than you aresucceeding.
When it comes to you know whatyour goal is in terms of you
(16:36):
know, getting a hit, getting onbase, and so that sport becomes
a sport of attrition.
How do you deal with failure?
Because you're failing morethan you're succeeding at that
metric or at that level, andthat to me is One of the
beauties again of what sportdoes for people.
So I would just say to youngkids and I say all the time to
(16:57):
young kids is when we sit downand set goals, winning is going
to be in there somewhere, butit's not going to be the only
goal.
Yeah we're going to talk a lotmore about development and
character.
And then again it inevitablycomes to what happens when what
(17:21):
you thought was going to happendoesn't happen, or what happens
when it gets hard.
What can we build inside of you, what can we develop so that
you, you're able to push throughthe difficulties?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
so, obviously, then if you fail, you learn from that
failure.
But as a parent, then are you Idon't want to say intentionally
putting them in situationswhere they fail, but would you,
I guess, would you like, is that, is that a lesson of itself?
Would you put, let's say you're, you know Joey, your oldest,
(17:59):
when he was 16?
Would you intentionally put himagainst someone Obviously very
better and better than him, tosee how he handles the loss or
to see if he can learn Somethingfrom them?
Do you know?
I'm saying that gets there tosort of different things.
Yeah because I've never thoughtof it as intentionally putting
my kid with someone who's betterso they can lose.
(18:20):
Intentionally I've neverthought of it that way.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So Bringing up my son and I'm outing him here.
He may not like this, but youknow, when he when he started
playing tournaments, he startedplaying the satellite, so not
opens at the junior level.
He was about 11 years old, 12years old, and he started a
little bit later.
He was also one thattransitioned from baseball to
(18:49):
tennis, the.
He played satellites and he wasoh and 11 in satellite
tournaments.
So it took him his 12th match.
What age was this 12 years old.
Okay, it took him his 12thmatch before he actually got a
victory and you know I, I, heand I would talk fondly often
(19:12):
how hard that was at the timeBecause he was playing people
that were better than him.
Yeah, as he was just learningthe sport and and it was, it was
really mentally draining on himand taxing on him and how many
times we would go.
We would always have thisrestaurant we would go to on the
way back from Orange County.
Oh, okay restaurant on the wayback from San Diego, because
(19:34):
that's where the tournamentswere, and we would sit at the
same table and you know he'd bereally upset and I'd be trying
to figure out Okay, how do am I,are we gonna?
Are we breaking them?
Or do you stick with this?
Is he able to handle this?
And so I do think it'sIndividual.
It's.
(19:54):
As parents, we know our kidsreally well.
Yeah and he was able to handleit.
And so after he got that firstwin, you know you, you start to
figure out what works a littlebit better and some of the
things that you talk about inthe sport in terms of strategy
Begin to become more clear.
As a player, but as a father,you know, I think those, those
(20:19):
losses, are what made him ableto Whether adversity in the
sport when he got older andstarted playing in college.
Because Things, as we know, nomatter what level you play,
you're, you're gonna makemistakes and you're gonna face
(20:40):
people that you think you shouldbe beating and you're not
beating, and you're gonna facesituations on the court that you
didn't anticipate and maybeyou're not playing your best
that day.
What do you?
What do you do about it?
And I think he has such a wellto go back to as a result of
those you know first 12 matchesthat he wasn't able to win, to
(21:04):
remember that it's not alwaysyou easy, but to know that if
you don't give up, there's waysto solve the puzzle.
And so I feel like tennis, morethan any other sport, to kind
(21:24):
of start focusing a bit ontennis presents you as a player,
regardless of your abilitylevel.
It has presented me, as aplayer, with puzzles that are
fun to try to solve.
Every single player that youcome up against has a different
(21:45):
thing they're trying to do andsomething different that they're
good at and something thatthey're not quite as good at,
and I just I view it so much asyou know this, in singles
especially, it's the most funpuzzle to try to solve because
it's physical and it's mentaland it's a testament to your
(22:08):
character and that is a funchallenge.
And so I find it to be a reallyfun sport to help young people
work through, largely because ofthe combination of the mental
aspects with the physicalaspects of the sport and then
(22:30):
you know, getting into thestrategy of it all, because when
I look at mental, I'm thinkingmore about, like, the social,
emotional ability of justhandling what is presented to
you on the court, and then youhave the strategy part of it, of
what you're trying to do andwhat they're trying to do to you
, and then you also just havethe physical ability that the
sport presents to you as well,and I think tennis is just the
(22:53):
perfect combination of thosepieces.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, what other sport is sort of like this?
I mean even individual sports.
It's more like playing againsta field of people, Like I could
think of some things like whereyou're sort of trying to get the
highest score and kind of thingand you're not necessarily
playing one-on-one Tennis isone-on-one, right and you're
advancing in a draw.
(23:17):
I guess there's a lot ofphysical sports like boxing,
karate, things like that, butmost other sports aren't really
like that.
You know, tennis is so unique.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, I think of it a lot like and I know I've read
Andre Agassiz autobiographywhich was super well done, but
you know his dad was a boxer andhe often would use that
comparison of boxing and tennis.
And to me it's a lot like aboxing match or maybe boxing is
(23:51):
like tennis as well, in thatyou're trying to solve a puzzle
that your opponent is presentingto you and that you have a
specific amount of time withinthe rules of the sport in order
to figure that puzzle out.
And whoever figures it outfirst is likely going to be
(24:13):
victorious.
And it's a combination of yourability to mentally withstand
what they're presenting, thestrategy that you're able to
employ and how you're able to beflexible and fluid with that
strategy, and just physicaltalent of you and the person
(24:34):
that is across from you, acrossthe net from you, and I think
that's a lot like boxing or MMAor as you say karate or any of
those pieces.
I think those are the bestprobably comparisons.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, so I do want to get to that because obviously
I've always, anytime I've playeddoubles with you, you are a
thinker out there and so not tosay that other people aren't I
think you're the most like.
You are thinking the most outthere when I play.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Okay, I think I will say it makes me chuckle, because
I am also the.
You know, I'm five, seven and ahundred and forty pounds
soaking wet and so I'm not goingout physical anybody out there.
And so it's part of figuringout what, when you look at it
with those three aspects atleast I've always looked at it
with those three aspects whichof what can I maximize?
(25:29):
And I'm not generally going tobe able to maximize the physical
part.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, okay, that makes sense.
So you got to do other stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
I got to do other stuff, the dark arts, yeah, okay
.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
So I do want to get to that Before I do.
I think I even told your sonthis like I'm happy doing this
podcast is talking with people,but it ended up being a thing
where I'm like using people,like to teach me things, and
it's been really nice to be likejust like I get free advice,
like doing this, like it's likea show.
It's a show like come on out,you know and talk with me, but
(26:02):
it's become this thing where Iget all this free advice.
So I'm like learning more andmore each time I do this.
So I want to stay on theparenting thing just a little
more.
That those 12 losses right Fromyour son.
So I think back on this quoteKobe gave when, when Kobe Bryant
, when he was talking about hiskids, like after retirement, he
(26:23):
obviously started teaching a lotof basketball with his daughter
, specifically the one thatpassed away with him, which is
very sad and he I forget whoquestioned him I might have been
, I forget who, but KevinGarnett, maybe I forget he was
on this podcast himself and Kobesaid it like it was understood.
He was like hey, man, you know,we can teach our kids to win
(26:46):
every game he goes, but that'snot the point right now he goes.
I'm trying to teach them and Iforget how he explained it, sort
of other things, and I don'tremember the other stuff he was
talking about.
Sorry, my ears are messing uphere, but it was really eye
opening to me that Kobe was likeI can, because I am who I am, I
(27:06):
can teach my daughter to go outand win that particular game
and in that moment.
But I know it's more beneficialfor her to do it this other way
, where I teach her for the longrun, versus winning this.
And so it made me think aboutthat.
When you're talking about yourson's losses, like how much were
you just like I hope he wins,or were you more just like happy
(27:30):
he was learning, like the hardway or I don't know describe
that maybe.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, it's a really it's a really good question and
I was.
It was a it's really difficultbecause it's your son, it's your
blood, it's somebody you careso deeply about and you're
watching them struggle and whenyou're in that moment we are all
.
At times we all can empathizewith somebody who's in a
(27:57):
struggle and is putting in time.
Like I would go and hit feed myson countless baskets of balls
on hot days where we live, itgets hot in the degrees and he's
, he's putting in the work andhe's trying really hard and he's
committed and he loves it.
(28:19):
And then you know, you get tothe match and it's another loss
into the next match and it'sanother loss, and that's hard on
the parent.
It you know it's.
In my view you have to be aparent to understand this, but
to me it's so much harder towatch your kid going through a
difficult time than it is to gothrough a difficult time
(28:41):
yourself, obviously.
And so the in no way, shape orform was I hopeful that he was
going to have these, you know,11, 12, 11 or 12 losses at the
start of his tennis.
You know, taking tennisseriously and and rejoicing in
(29:04):
that it was every single time.
It was hoping that he getspositives from a sport that I
love.
With that being said, it wasreworking what the goals were,
that the goals for me in theconversations I would have with
him weren't always or ever thatyou get a win.
(29:28):
They were that you are, you co,into the match with an
understanding of what yourstrengths are and what your
weaknesses are, and working onunderstanding the person that's
across from you, because youcan't control that necessarily.
You mean you entered the drawand, yes, there are a certain
age and there are certain, youknow, in satellite there are
(29:51):
certain level, but you don'tknow who they are and you show
up across from them and in thatfive minute warm up, can you
discern what their strengths areand where they're going to
struggle a little bit and canyou do something in the match
that's going to make their timemore difficult.
(30:12):
And so we would celebrate thesmall, those small goals and
those small pieces that, even inthose first 11 and 12 matches,
did not end up in a win, butthey ended up in taking another
step toward understanding thatthere's going to be success at
some time.
So but to answer your questiondirectly, no, it was an awful
(30:34):
time.
Yeah.
But looking back on it, both ofus can say that it taught him
and me that sport is more thanwinning and losing.
Winning and losing matters,absolutely matters, but it was
so much more about gettingbetter and progressing and being
(30:58):
able to understand where, wherethe his game was kind of
shaping up, where he wasstarting to understand how he
can create patterns on thetennis court that accentuate his
strengths and allow him to hitthe ball where and with the
stroke that he's best at and tryto keep patterns away from
(31:28):
places that expose hisweaknesses and that for an 11,
12 year old you know,kid, let alone a 52 year old man
, that struggles with that whenI play on a court is the beauty
of the game, but it's also thedifficulty of the game, and so
at the time, as a parent, it wasreally difficult, but again
being able to have so.
This is what I love about my mychildren deciding that they
(31:56):
also wanted to play sports andthat they enjoyed it is being
able to celebrate the processand being in pain with them when
it wasn't fast enough or whenit wasn't resulting in wins or
(32:18):
victories.
And in those times and thosemoments, I think, are what
create the bonds and that letthem know that you know you're
always going to be there forthem, you have their best
interest in mind and that whenyou look back because now he's
24, my daughter's 21, she didsoccer it those are the best
(32:44):
memories, and I think those arethe unspoken conversations that
you have as a parent and a kid,the experiences that you built
together that communicate somuch more than words can
communicate.
And so, for me, as a parent,sport provided opportunities for
(33:06):
me to show my kids that I'llalways be there for them in life
, in their successes and intheir struggles and we'll work
together on figuring out how wecan make get through those
struggles, and I think they bothunderstand that we're not going
to be able to avoid struggles,but that's what make them that's
(33:27):
what's going to make themsuccessful in life.
So I would hope that, as parentsbecause again, I love what I
get to do as a living and as acareer I would hope that we, as
a society, we don't shy awayfrom putting our kids into
(33:50):
experiences that challenge them,where maybe they're not going
to be successful, maybe they'renot going to be, you know, the
top 2% of the class, or they'renot going to be the you know the
varsity star, but they'replugging away at it and they're
working hard at it and they'reunderstanding how to deal with
(34:15):
things when it doesn't pan outthe way they hoped it would.
Yet that's what I think sportprovides and what we as adults
in education, educators can dofor kids and, when I work with
parents in the educationalsetting, being able to have
(34:36):
conversations like this aboutwhat the goals are and what
we're trying to do and how thatoften takes time.
Those are, I think, reallyimportant, and I hope that again
, as a society, we don't losesight of what the real goals are
, which is creating kind,compassionate, capable, talented
(35:03):
people that our society and ourdemocracy needs in order to
continue to thrive.
So I think we I don't want tomake this you know more than
it's supposed to be.
But oftentimes I think we rightnow in society try to get the
quick kind of fix to what we'reafter and to try to make it
(35:28):
easier for ourselves, but alsofor our children, and I I would
for me and my family.
I've always leaned instead intoplaces where we can learn
together how to deal withstruggle, cause I think it's a
(35:49):
more valuable asset to have inlife itself, and sport provides
that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yeah, when you were talking right now, it actually
it was making me think aboutrunning, because when I go
running, I mean the goal isobviously I need to get back
home.
Right, I don't want to, I don'twant to stop in the middle, but
when you run you don't have agoal.
It's just like the struggle ofrunning and I was when you were
(36:16):
talking right now it sort ofinspired me to think more about
like man, I got to get out andrun more because it's just that
putting yourself through pain.
There's no true like award,right, Like when you go, do it
yourself, you're not facinganyone.
It's all intrinsic, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yeah, so it's just such a cool thing.
The more you were talking about, the more I started just
thinking about why I enjoyrunning.
Cause I do.
I love to put on someheadphones and just go in and
like I love coming home justdead Like I didn't achieve
anything.
No one patted me on the back,no one even knows, like how long
I ran, like I don't even knowif I tell my wife I'm just tired
, you know.
So it's just I was just thinkingabout that when you're talking.
(36:52):
Another thing I was thinkingabout when you were talking,
though, is I've never quiteagreed with participation awards
or participation trophies, butthe more you talked, the more I
just maybe we don't need to givethe trophy, but we do have to
provide our children with that.
Had a boy, had a girl pat onthe back and just say you tried,
(37:16):
and it doesn't matter if youfailed or succeeded, or if
that's even the thing right.
Failure doesn't mean you camein second, and succeeding
doesn't mean you came first.
But I just started thinkingabout this, cause you know it's
easy to go.
Participation trophies those arestupid.
But the more you startedtalking, the more I started
thinking about it.
It's like, man, I got to openup my mind to stuff like that
(37:38):
because maybe they're not so bad.
Like it's like hey, you get anaward for participating, for
actually stepping out of, maybe,your comfort zone, showing up
to something.
Maybe you didn't want to do it,maybe parents made you, I don't
know, but you went through itand like congratulations, kind
of thing.
I've never quite thought of itthat way.
I don't even know if you weretalking about that, but I just
(38:00):
sort of started thinking moreabout it, cause I'm usually
poo-pooing participation award,participation awards, right, but
I don't know about the awarditself, but I definitely give my
kids that participation award.
Like you know that talk likehey, I don't care if you won, I
don't care if you lost, you didsomething out there, amazing.
(38:21):
You put yourself in a scenariowhere you have the opportunity
to come second and lose andyou're still here to talk about
it.
And that's just amazing.
And that's the participationaward in a way.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Yeah, I think I certainly don't want to come
across as someone who is forjust false praise and or praise
for the sake of you showed up.
Yeah, I think that's a longerconversation, but I'm certainly
(38:55):
not.
I don't think there's value inthat.
But I do think that it goesback to what goals have you set
and did you make progress towardthose goals?
And if progress has been made,like discernible progress,
there's data to show that youset out to do this, we worked on
(39:16):
these things and as a result ofthat, you showed progress, and
in that case, I do think that'scommendable.
I don't think the reward is atrophy.
I don't think the reward istangible.
I think the reward is thejourney and the experiences that
were created, that are nowintrinsically embedded in you as
(39:42):
a result of what you'veaccomplished, and it takes
maturity, obviously, tounderstand that.
I mean, yeah, when my son wasgoing through the struggles he
was going through early on bynot getting victories, he at
that time wasn't interested inthe participation trophy.
That would have meant nothingto him.
He wouldn't have touched it andI think most kids are like that
(40:10):
At the time would have spoken tohim.
Most was to see results, and soit was a matter of changing the
perspective of what thoseresults are, to take them away
from the victory or who won thematch and put them more toward.
(40:33):
Where was your first servepercentage?
How many returns did you make?
How many unforced errors didyou have?
How many times did you getpinned on your backhand side?
How many balls did you attackthat were short balls where
you're able to get two feet intothe court?
Those were the things that webegan to talk about and to kind
(40:54):
of work on, as opposed to didyou win the match or did you not
win the match?
It's such a binary yes or no inthat one, and I believe that
one of the reasons why tennis issuch an amazing sport is
because it's not at the end ofthe day.
It's about so much more thanjust a winner or a loss.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
My little one came in to wave to us Close it, mama
she's amazing.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
By the way, she's one of the most positive people
I've ever been.
Yeah, she really is Alwayssmiling.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Just today I took her to get Sonic Burger up the
street.
It's really hot outside so Ihad to have the air cool on, but
she wanted the window down.
She put her arm up.
She said, put on her favoritesong, and she was just her head
out the window.
Just smiling the whole time.
I always call her big teethbecause not that she has big
teeth, but she just alwaysshowing her teeth, always
(41:50):
smiling, and I was in awe, likeI'm, like that's just.
Humans like that are, I don'tknow, just rare.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Don't take that for granted.
I know you don't because that'sspecial, yeah, and she's gonna
be able to lean into that somuch as she grows together.
And I know how much you loveher and I can tell just when you
talk about her.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
But that's the crazy thing I really do have a hard
time finding and that's why I'mso interested in what you're
saying right now and I wouldlove to have this conversation a
lot longer, like over a beer orwhatever, continuously, forever
, because I do struggle withthat.
I just I don't wanna keep herin a bubble because she does
(42:37):
karate, she does tennis, shedoes a lot of stuff.
She's playing down the street,she scrapes her knees, all these
things right.
But it's also that thing ofit's hard for me to figure out,
like where the protection likestops and where I let her fall,
kind of thing.
Do you know what I'm saying?
It's really tough for me latelyand I don't know.
(42:58):
It's been one of those thingswhere me, like I'm constantly
thinking about it, like I don'tknow if I saw her fall.
You know what I mean.
This is a what's it called?
Not a real example, but Iforget, not an analogy, but
whatever it is.
I'm painting the picture.
This isn't a real thing that'shappening.
But if I'm seeing her fall,should I let her fall and then
(43:19):
explain to her people fall andwhat scrapes are and how we mend
the scrapes, kind of thing,versus should I stop her from
falling and then she'll fall inlife.
Obviously, right, I won't bethere, but does dad need to show
her?
Will she find out later on onher own?
Like that's the thing I'mhaving a real struggle with.
It's really tough.
(43:39):
I don't know.
Parenting is so hard.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Yeah, where did?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
this all come from within you.
I mean, like I said, you, whenwe play, you are constantly
telling me about this persondoesn't like their backhand, or
let's do an eye formation herebecause it's gonna mess them up
or whatever it is, and usuallyI'm just out there swinging Like
I'm not really thinking.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Because you're really talented Physically.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Well then that's, but that's a problem, then, right.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Like I think it's an opportunity.
So again going back to at leastyou know I'm just Joe 4.5
player that you know was a 4.0and got a little bit better.
I'm no expert in any of thisbut for me, and what's always
worked for me is I've alwayslooked at tennis, in particular
(44:34):
again at those three aspects ofthe how you handle emotionally
what's going on on the court andthe challenges, the puzzles
that are presented to you, whatstrategies can be employed.
I think is the second piece, sothat's another mental part of
the game, but it's not theemotional part, it's the
(44:54):
strategy part and then just thephysicality of the game itself
how well do you move, howproficient are your strokes,
what breaks down faster, thoseparts that physically you can
improve.
But I don't know how many peoplereally think deeply about the
(45:15):
first two and so for me you knowI don't is it a problem?
You know, tony, are physicallygifted, you know your eye hand
coordination is really good, youmove really well on the court,
you're able to reproduce thestrokes that work for you
consistently and your timing'sreally good.
(45:35):
And so as a result of all thosethings, you can you maximize
that piece, can you get betterphysically?
Absolutely.
You're also getting older, sowhere can you maximize?
some of the other things thatyou can maximize.
Some of the other parts of yourgame you can probably maximize
the.
I mean emotionally you'repretty good on the court, but
(45:58):
that strategy part.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
You know, and maybe that's what you know is an area
where you can even improve yourgame more and potentially faster
is by looking specifically atthat part.
And so I've just always andlargely because of what I've
decided again to do for my life,is I always look at what are
(46:20):
the rules of the contest orwhatever it is that you're
playing and what's required inorder to do it well, and then
breaking it down and just reallythinking in a way that breaks
it down and then so that it canbe worked on.
(46:42):
And again, I think for me thatcomes in large part from the
fact that I'm just not physical,and so in what I mean by that
is, I'm not big, I'm notnecessarily really really fast,
I'm not strong necessarily, youknow, in terms of when you're
(47:04):
matched up against one of theiropponent, and so I've had to
look at things a little bitdifferently in order to be able
to even compete at a level thatI would like to, and so I don't
think that's necessarily aproblem.
I think it's.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
I'm just not maximizing what I guess my
potential then.
Maybe Because you're right.
I see people that are top inthe world in their sport.
As I hate when people say, oh,they're so talented and
obviously they are Right you canwe talk about, like if we talk
about basketball, because Ithink basketball is one of those
(47:44):
sports where talent does getyou a long way.
Like you can pick up abasketball and sort of be good
pretty quickly.
Obviously it won't be great,but it's one of those things
where talent sometimes wins outmore.
But when you're at that highlevel you need the 100% talent.
But you also need, without hardwork, who cares?
No one would know your name,kind of thing, and so.
(48:07):
But in tennis you know hard work.
I'm obviously working hard, I'mobviously like caring about my
craft kind of thing, but forsome reason when I get on the
match I don't think about theopponent, I'm just thinking
about myself.
So when Adam was here in yourseat, he said the same thing as
you, which was during that fiveminute warmup.
(48:29):
He's watching them and I'll behonest with you, joe, and I
don't know if this sounds crazyto you Before Adam said that
I've never once in my whole lifetried to figure out their
strengths and weaknesses duringthe five minute warmup, zero
times.
I've done it Cause I was alwaysworried about myself.
I was like get your forehandstroke good, feel good on your
backhand, that kind of stuff.
(48:49):
Sure, so I must be missing,like a big component of you know
, possibly winning, like youknow what I mean If I'm not
thinking about their weaknesses.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah, for whatever reason, of late I've been
thinking about this for thesport of tennis and I think it's
cause I've hit kind of a lullin my own game, in my own
progression.
Um the that, for me it'sthinking about understanding
(49:21):
your game first and having areally clear understanding of
what you are good at in thissport, what are your strengths?
And I mean I go to a point oflike listing, like literally
formalizing it, and for meformalizing means we're writing
it down and so it exists nowlike tangibly these are the
(49:45):
things that I'm good at.
And so what do we base that on?
What makes you believe you'regood at those things?
Speaker 5 (49:52):
And that kind of reflection, because you can do
it on your own.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
And I always find it better if you're able to talk to
somebody about it.
But what are you good at?
So, if these are the piecesthat you're good at, how do you
make sure that you can beconsistently good at them and
when it's time to play in acompetition, that they're going
(50:16):
to be there for you, you canrely on them.
That it's not that, hey.
On Tuesday my forehand wasamazing and on Wednesday I
couldn't find my forehand.
And on.
Thursday it was pretty good andthen on Friday I couldn't find
it again.
It's that I have this base,that I can always rely on, that
I know these are the things Ican go to, so when times get
hard, I know I at least havethis base.
(50:38):
Sometimes the other playerstrying to solve the same
problems you're trying to solveand so they can sometimes figure
out ways to chip into your base.
But something that you knowabout yourself that's great, and
I think that's one of thethings you're really good at is
I think you know yourself reallywell and you know the parts of
your game that you can rely on,and it's pretty.
(51:01):
I mean, you're a good player andso there's a lot that you have
in there in your base.
But once you have that, then Ithink you think about how you
understand your opponent better,and in a sport like tennis you
don't have a lot of time tounderstand it, and so you try to
get as much information as youpossibly can at least for me, in
(51:26):
that five minute warmup.
You may know a little bit aboutthe player because you've
played them before or you'veheard about them or you've seen
their results, but that fiveminute warmup would then be to
me invaluable.
If you can rely on your baseand what you already know you do
well, then for me the wholefive minutes is all about.
(51:47):
I'm just collecting informationon what it seems like you like,
where you seem to flatten theball out more, where you seem to
hit the ball harder, where,like a lot of people at the
level I play at, they tend towarm up favor the shot they like
(52:08):
the most, and so, if it'stypically a forehand, if you hit
balls to their backhand side.
They're literally running aroundthem and hitting the forehand
and it may be that they're justtrying to warm that up, but it
typically is just kind of thisinvoluntary thing that that's
the shot they like the most, andthen also giving them a few
different balls.
(52:29):
What do they do when the ballbounces above their chest?
What do they do when the ball'slow?
Speaker 2 (52:33):
And you're doing this in the five minute warmup.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
Just like I'm not just gonna give you the same
ball.
I wanna see what you do whenthere's a low ball.
I wanna see what you do whenyou're pinned a little bit
deeper because this is reallytripping me out.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
Those are the I've never done any of these things.
Speaker 3 (52:48):
Those are the pieces that, as the match starts, you
can begin to rely on, and againI wanna say I'm no expert at any
of this, but because I can'trely on my, I don't have the
physical gifts you have.
What I have learned in my lifeof sport that started with
(53:12):
baseball is how do I like?
For me it was when I graduatedhigh school.
I was five foot to 97 pounds.
That's graduating from highschool 97.
I was the smallest kid in school.
I was the kid in high schoolthat wore the backpack and all
you saw was two legs stickingout the bottom of the backpack
Really small kid.
But I love sports and I had tofigure out ways to be able to
(53:37):
play against people that wereway bigger, way stronger than me
.
So for me it was alwaysmaximizing the strengths that I
had, and so that's why I lovedtennis so much.
Once I started to play, it isthat, oh, this is like, it's
like a puzzle, like the mentalpart matters.
And yeah, that game, thatinside game, I can.
(53:58):
While this person's strongerthan me, hits the ball harder
than me, moves faster than me,there are some things I can do
that he doesn't like, thatactually equalize us.
And if I can set up patternsduring the match that allows me,
especially during the importantpoints, that allows me to get
(54:22):
into those patterns that giveshim balls more often that he
doesn't like or in places on thecourt that he doesn't like to
be and me places that I like tobe, I'm gonna win more of those
points, or at least that's theidea.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
And if I don't, you're probably just a little
physical.
So you're the casino.
You just want a small littleedge, Just the advantage, just a
little edge.
Speaker 3 (54:40):
Because you have the edge on the physical side.
That's why I wouldn't say that,but it's a problem for you.
You're maximizing what you have, I'm trying to maximize what I
have and we just that's what'sbeautiful about.
One of the things that'sbeautiful about tennis is we
approach it differently and yousee it on the pro tour all the
(55:01):
time different body types,different people that approach
it differently, but they'realways I mean they hire whole
teams around them to accentuatetheir strengths and try to
minimize their weakness.
Speaker 2 (55:13):
If you were able to somehow physically able to get
stronger, to put on 50 pounds ofmuscle, et cetera, or if I was
able to get smarter or thinkabout the mental side more, we
would be a more complete player.
Obviously it's so easy, butjust saying out loud is sort of
like, of course, but then whydon't I?
(55:35):
It would just sort ofinteresting.
Speaker 3 (55:37):
Because you're a dad and a husband and you have a job
, you're a lawyer, and so and Idon't want that to sound like an
excuse you like to run becausewe do other things.
But the people that I've talkedto, people in the sport of
tennis that have and I even at acertain time, at a certain
(55:59):
level, which is a lower levelsaid hey, I'm gonna like for a
year I'm gonna be all in, I'mthrowing all my chips in, not to
say I'm quitting my job, I'mquitting being a dad, I'm
quitting being a husband, but myfree time I'm gonna put in the
hours every week to just see howgood can I get at this level.
And it yeah, it get better, itpays off.
(56:21):
But that's like we're not in thesport, you and me, as a career.
We're putting our timeelsewhere, and so I think part
of the conversation, what I likeabout this podcast a little bit
is it's for parts of it and forme, this conversation the
(56:45):
things that interest me most arethe conversations with people
who just love the sport and aretrying to get better, but it's
they can't put in 40 hours aweek or even 20 hours a week
playingit because we have other
commitments that we're doing,but when we're playing it, we
(57:05):
wanna figure out how tocontinually maximize our
abilities and continue to growin the game, because it's so fun
, and so that's what I likeabout your podcast.
It's what I like about thesport itself and why I brought
it up earlier, why I was soexcited that my oldest son and
(57:28):
now my youngest son play thesport, is because it's a sport
that, even if you, as you getolder and like me, I'm not and
never was physical, but now Idon't recover the way I used to.
For me, I play less tournamentsdown singles, especially because
it's hard for me to play twogrueling singles matches in a
(57:49):
row, two days in a row andsometimes you gotta play them
twice in one day.
And my body just doesn'trespond that way anymore.
And so you're getting older,but I can still go out and have
fun Saturday morning playingdoubles, or play a singles match
on Monday night.
It's still.
I can still have a good time,but the goals are different.
Speaker 2 (58:08):
And anytime I played an open where they make you play
same day, first day, twomatches.
The second match has been atotal waste.
I've been trying, I'm mentallytrying, but nothing's working.
It's like why aren't thesethighs doing what they're
supposed to do, or you're?
Speaker 3 (58:23):
40, something is old and you're likely playing
against people that are 30 or 20.
And they already have thephysical advantage.
Yeah, that's true.
And so that gets back toremembering those other
components.
And are there things in thoseother components that maybe you
can begin to maximize a littlebit, because you may be able to,
(58:43):
in that first match, still getthe win, but not play the
physical, grueling type of match?
If you figure out a little bitsooner, maybe, how to win more
points or create patterns thatwill allow you to win points
without such a physical grind.
Because you play as good as youare, I think you play a brand
(59:08):
of tennis where you like to hita lot of balls.
That's just the way that I seeyou.
You're very consistent, you canflatten balls out, you can hit
winners.
You could do a lot on the court.
For a person like me.
My favorite matches, thematches where I tend to be most
successful against people thatare at my level, are like three
(59:28):
hours long.
They're long, grueling.
We're hitting 20, 30 shots perpoint because I just love to
stand but just be on thebaseline and spin a lot of balls
in and there's just that thingabout I'm gonna, I am going to
outlast you, and that's part ofthe physical and mental part
(59:52):
that suits my game best, atleast right now and as I have
been playing tennis.
But for you, I think you hit alot of balls.
If you employed the mental sideof it, you may be able to win
that first match in an open andhave more in the tank to be able
to also then come back in thesecond match.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Or the second match, be willing to use strategy
versus just physicality, becauseI've been very upset.
I've come home, won my firstmatch, lost my second match, and
I've been so upset at my bodylike, oh, I need to lose weight,
I need to run more, I need todo this, and it was that.
But it's also now that we'retalking.
(01:00:34):
It's the other stuff, too, thatI never even thought of.
I never thought I need tochange my game because I'm tired
.
I just went out and tried to dothe same exact thing, but I was
tired and I couldn't right.
So, yeah, I gotta start usingmy brain, joe.
Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
And you're playing against guys that you're not.
They're not gonna get tiredJust out of college, they're
still playing they're trying toaccomplish things in their life
with tennis.
Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
you know, they have a tennis goal and, like you said,
we're just trying to get out,be out there and have fun, and
yeah, so it's interesting.
So, man, we've already beentalking for an hour, joe.
I don't wanna end, though, buttell me if was there anything
that started all this with you,where you said it was about your
(01:01:19):
size or whatever in high school.
But was it that, like, were youalways just this way, like
trying to figure things out,like what?
Was it that sort of started youdown that path of trying to be
more of the thinker?
I guess?
I think it's a so and do you doother things?
Like is chess like do you playcards Like do you read, like I
(01:01:42):
don't know what's some otherstuff, I guess that is like this
yeah, I love to read.
Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
I don't read as much as I would like to.
I am, so I guess I would answerthat question, but a lot of it
would be my parents, which is somuch of us.
We are our parents and I had a.
I have a mom that is a really,really, really hard worker and
(01:02:14):
very type A and a perfectionist,and so I grew up with that
being modeled for me.
And there was nothing that you,there was no problem that
couldn't be solved.
And so in adversity, when I wasgrowing up and my family was
faced with difficult times, Iwould see my mom modeling for me
(01:02:38):
yeah, this is a hard one, butlet's sit down together and
figure out how we're gonna solveit.
And so that was in like in mefrom a very young age.
And then my dad, who's verydifferent than me.
He's a brute.
He was a tank driver in theMarines and a police officer and
(01:03:02):
just very physical.
His legs are like tree trunks.
He's built very differentlythan I am.
Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
He's still alive, or no?
Uh-huh, oh, he is, yeah, and hewhen?
Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
was he a police officer?
Los Angeles LAPD oh was no andhe.
So he modeled for me this ideaof of you can always out
(01:03:34):
physical people, which I knew Icouldn't, and you can always
outlast and outwork others, andso he instilled in me the
importance of from his militarybackground.
When you say you're going to dosomething, or when you commit
(01:03:58):
to do something, the worst thingthat can happen is you don't do
it.
The worst thing that can happenis not that you lose or you fail
, because as long as you do, yougive your best at what you said
you were going to do, youdidn't lose and you didn't fail,
and that he showed me everysingle day with adversity that
(01:04:22):
we have as I was growing up, andso those two pieces were
instilled in me and I think Itake those onto the tennis court
with me all the time and Ithink it also is why to answer
your question about, like, doyou play chess, do you do these
other things, what I do?
I'm just a workaholic.
I just love my job and I loveto work and that's where, like
(01:04:45):
even when I talk here, Iprobably referenced being an
educator, a couple times becauseI, just once I commit to
something and I make acommitment that you're going to
entrust your kids with me orwith the organization that I
work with, then you're going toget 120% what we do to make it
(01:05:06):
the best possible experience itcan be, and that translates, I
think, to the tennis court andto this idea that we can.
there's more than just thephysical piece to it.
There's also the mental piece,and there's also the how hard
(01:05:26):
you work at it piece and thenthe emotional side, which I know
we've talked for an hour andwe're done, but it's I think
it's a really important and funconversation to have with in
tennis that hopefully we get tokeep having off air around the
mental side and how you use thewarm-up and have somebody like
(01:05:48):
me who doesn't have the physicalgifts can go far in a
tournament simply by engagingyour brain.
There's a part in that fortennis.
Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Yeah, you know what's interesting though I might be
taking away the wrong thing fromthis, so you tell me if I'm
wrong but if we're talking aboutsort of physical, mental and
the work, hard work,interestingly enough, what I'm
coming out of this with is I cancontrol the hard work.
So I can't always control themental side.
(01:06:20):
Maybe I'm not the smartest, Ican't, I'm not always the most
physical or the biggest orwhatever.
I guess I can control that toowith hard work.
But I think, like you weresaying, I think it's something
might it reminds me of somethingmy dad used to tell me too was
but just outwork them and you'reprobably going to be better
than 90% of the people out therebecause they're not working as
(01:06:41):
hard.
And so he always said thisthing like that, which is just
work as hard as you can andyou'll see, you'll sort of rise
to the top.
Just because of that you won'tbe the smartest, you won't be
the strongest, but outworkeveryone.
And so when you, when you weretalking about I'm, I was coming
away with that, and obviously Ineed to remember the mental side
, the physical side, but thehard work stuff for me is like
(01:07:04):
so valuable.
When you were saying it justreminded me of stuff my dad used
to tell me to yeah, I mean wewill never escape our parents.
Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
But yeah, I also think maximizing the area that
you're best at, which I thinkyou do such a great job at is,
is great yeah and I mean alwayswhen, when we talk, it seems
like you're always searching for, like that next piece, that's
(01:07:35):
gonna like elevate your game andsometimes I think you just kind
of hit on a piece that's soimportant is also leaning into
and lingering or settling in onjust enjoying.
Enjoying the journey and whatyou have and and how you're
(01:07:57):
employing that or using thatright now I think is great.
It's hard, I think, to bereally thoughtful, strategic,
working hard and talented or youhave all the level of
commitments that we have yeahand so sometimes that all of a
sudden makes it not fun yeah andthat's the piece that I think
(01:08:20):
is really important.
Like I think to leave with isthe coolest thing I think that I
enjoy about our relationship iswe both love to play tennis and
as long as tennis is still fun,then, yeah, then I think we're
winning no, you're right.
Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
That's why I so want someone our age 40s, 50s to just
win an open like to me, thatwould be the greatest thing.
I'll probably try to write adocumentary about them or
something.
That would be the greatestthing in the world for me.
I don't just to see like theyput in all the hard work.
They're old, they're fallingapart and they just somehow beat
all the young kids maybe RogerFederer will come back yeah,
(01:08:59):
maybe.
Huh, I mean, what are, what isFederer?
only low 40s probably rightancient for tennis yeah, ancient
for tennis 42 at that levelyeah yeah, before we get off, I
give everyone a gift.
So I went out and bought this.
What I wanted us to do was openit.
You take them all.
But I know you're a bigfootball soccer fan, so I went
(01:09:20):
out and bought tops, chromesoccer for us.
So I just went to this localcar shop I'm like, hey, give me
the latest and greatest soccerpacks, so let's open them.
I won't know anyone's namebesides Messi, I guess.
And who's the other one?
Ronaldo?
Ronaldo, yeah, I know those two,so I'll know those.
Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
But can you name one American soccer player?
Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
I can't give me one, wow, give me.
Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
Just give me one like maybe like a retired one wait,
also place tennis in our area oh, um, what was his name?
And even do that?
Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
oh man, he plays for San Diego teams what's his name?
Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
what was his name again Landon donovan, that's
right.
Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Okay, so I got Stephen burge win.
See, I don't even and the othercrazy part is, I don't even
know these teams.
Hey, jack Amsterdam, is that ateam?
Champions League check?
Okay, so this must be ChampionsLeague cards.
And I never even understoodthat really really nice cards
yeah, they call him chrome, andthey come out really beautiful.
(01:10:20):
Joe Felix, tell me if there'sanyone good here, joe.
Joe, joe sorry.
Joe Felix, joseph stun stunts astitch.
It says future stars.
That might be a rookie cardhe's a youngster, yeah something
to hold on to.
Oh, here's a colored one.
These ones are usually thenumbered ones.
This is a hundred and twentysix out of 199, so they only
made 199 of these name arejunior.
Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
Yeah, you got name are is he good?
Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
you don't know who name are oh he's amazing
Brazilian show name, oh okay.
Oh, I recognize the face forsure.
I recognize his face for sureyeah, he's special so you might
have got a good car here.
This might be special, thismight be um, I know that one's,
that's high level, so what?
Did you get anyone?
Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
good, the one that's probably most known yeah,
definitely is paydry.
I place for FC Barcelona oh,let me see that.
Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Okay.
Oh, that's a nice one too, butthat that might be just the base
card.
So you probably you don'tcollect cards, but nowadays they
make base cards and then theymake short numbered cards and
different colors and and alleveryone's chasing those.
So this is probably still anamazing guy, but the cards
probably not worth that much.
Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
But so beautiful yeah , but card he's a.
Really he's a really goodsoccer player.
Oh really yeah, who cares that?
Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
yeah, so you remember we were kids who just collect
cards because we like them, youknow.
And now so it's sort of sadcards like all your.
It's like the lotto.
You're just chasing this onecard like they make that see
that one was out of 199.
They'll make them out of oneand like it'll say one of one on
the back and that's all peoplecare about.
They don't care who it is no oneof one is special oh, heck,
(01:11:56):
yeah, they'll make it gold andall this stuff, and do you have
any one of ones?
No, I have no one, a one stone,okay, but the best card I have
is behind you.
Some Carlos cards, I have somegood ones.
Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
Yeah, my son has told me about your Carlos collection
yeah so but what a player.
Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
Yeah, but um well, this was my thank you to you,
joe.
Thank you so much, my friend,for coming.
Oh yeah, that fell out shoot.
Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
I knocked it out.
Yeah, thank you, tony.
I appreciate our friendshipthat was so fun.
Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
No, me too, and, like I told your son, like I really
value your friendship.
You and Keith, really, andScott were the real three guys
who originally just made me lovemyriad of tennis club because,
um, I just enjoyed your guysfriendship so much and you guys
similar ages obviously, but justto me have always sort of been
(01:12:44):
mentors because of you guysalways thought of the game
differently and if I just reallyenjoyed that, so I just I thank
you, my friend for coming.
Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
Yeah, how do we get through an hour of tennis
conversation without bringing upKeith or Scott?
Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
yeah, I know, or Tom, or I had to say Tom's name
right before we get off.
Yeah, I say every podcast.
Talk about Tom and ice cream sothat was my mention, tom, and
ice cream at the end.
Thanks, joe, all right man,thanks.
You are listening to your League Tennis Podcast with
your host, anthony Radonia.
Anthony is an avid weekendwarrior tennis player, just like
you.
Every week, he'll beinterviewing new and exciting
guests that will not only differin experience and skill level,
but also in age and physicalability.
Your League Tennis Podcast isabout making you a better tennis
(00:26):
player, whether you're abeginner or have been playing
for years, in your 20s or inyour 60s.
Now here is your host, anthonyRadonia.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
All right Joe.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
It's quite a crowd right there.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, I know Everyone says that they're always
surprised how big the crowd is.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I didn't know you had so many people following this
podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, everyone came out just to hear you tonight,
joe, so I'm happy.
First of all, what's the hat?
I'm going to say the La Jolla,that's the father-son one you
just did.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, it was the most recent La Jolla championship.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
That's cool.
It's like a hundred andsomething.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I don't know.
I think it may actually say ahundred plus years, yeah, 1917.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Wow they are.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
yeah, that's a well done tournament.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, I love La Jolla , La Jolla and then Ojai, like
if you've ever played Ojai orwent.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I haven't played, but I've had, because I don't know
if you knew, but I coached highschool tennis at.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Schopenhauer.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
High School one of our high schools and then Great
Oak High School, and so I wouldalways take my players out to
Ojai and coach them, but I'venever played in.
Ojai For CIF.
Yeah for the well, they have aCIF bracket there that goes
right alongside the Pac-10, nowPac-12 championships.
Yeah, Pac-12.
And then they have just aregular junior open tournament
(01:46):
at the same time too.
So there's a lot of tennis upthere, but yeah, my players
would always enter the CIFbracket Good tennis.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Oh yeah.
And then Ojai, I want to say islike 1890s or something, when
it started, something goes away,something in the 1800s, which
is a little crazy.
Do me a favor, bring in alittle closer to you Because I
can hear you good, but later on,like for Spotify, it's
sometimes a little weird.
How's that?
That sounds better, cool, well,thank you for coming.
My friend and you brought yourson.
(02:16):
They're jamming downstairs, himand my daughter.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yes, which is?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
nice, they're playing a little guitar, hopefully
having fun, oh yeah.
I hope so.
That's cool.
Okay, so let's get into yourrating, which is always the
beginning of each podcast,because obviously you're here to
talk tennis.
You're a four or five UST ratedplayer.
Yes, do you know your UTR.
I always ask this.
Some people don't, some peopledo.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, I don't, and I don't know how this may be too
much information, but howreliable it is anyway, because
my oldest son his name is thesame as mine.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
And our results often get mixed up.
And so.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
I have some college wins on my resume, even though
I've never played in collegeNice, and he's got some wins
against 50 year old guys thathe's never played as well.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Oh, hey guys and some losses on both ends.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah yeah.
So I don't know how reliable myUTR would even be.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
UTR is so crazy to me how a year ago I had no clue
about it and all the kids werealways talking about what's his
UTR.
Like I'd play a tournament andlike kids at the club would be
like, hey, what's the guy's UTRyou played?
I'm like I don't even know whatyou're talking about.
So I signed up and found out Ihad a UTR which I didn't know
about.
But it's so crazy that itchanges every pretty much almost
(03:28):
every day, no joke.
And it all depends on, like,who you played and if they beat
someone or lost someone.
If you don't beat them.
6-0, 6-1,.
If they're lower than you, yourrating can actually drop if you
win, every game matters.
Yeah, every game matters.
I kind of like the concept.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I like the idea and I'm sure they're.
I mean, it's been around nowfor years.
I'm sure they are getting allthe wrinkles out of it, but it's
a great concept.
I'm guessing you're probably.
What are you?
I don't want to undervalue you.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Take a guess, I know exactly what I meant.
Actually, I check almost everyday, even though I hate UTR.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You're in the double digits.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Nah, I was.
Are you a high nine?
I'm 9.62.
As of this morning, I was just9.9, something I was trying to
break into the 10s.
And then I lost to someonerecently and it threw me down to
a 9.6, which was crazy becausethe guy I lost to, I think, was
a high 9.2.
So I don't know how losing tosomeone who's equal to you
(04:27):
messes you up, but I don't know.
It's a complicated formula,yeah, it must be that and
Google's those are both heavilyguarded secrets and YouTube's
algorithm, or something.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah well, I would know that if my UTR was accurate
, it would not be as high asyours.
My guess is that I wouldprobably max out in the high
eights in terms of ability level.
No, and I also.
Most of the tournaments I wouldsay in the last two years that
I've played have been doublesand father's.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
And so I have not really done a lot of singles.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
They do singles and dubs, by the way, yeah, yeah, so
that, yeah, it's interesting,but I think you know how it is.
We talked to kids who are allinto it and some people just
care about it too much.
If they're playing a UTR who'sbetter than them, they assume
they're going to lose.
Yeah, and if they play UTRbelow them, they have to win or
else they'll get mad.
(05:25):
Yeah, it's like yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Nothing but stress producing.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, seriously, that's interesting.
So we've known each other, Idon't know, since 2018, 17,
maybe something around there.
Lifetimes yeah, and you'remarried.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I am married, happily married, to my high school
sweetheart.
We've been together for over 25years marriage.
Wow Over 30 years.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
When someone says high school sweetheart, that
literally means they dated inhigh school and never and I
don't know, not necessarilydidn't break up, but have still
been together.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
We've been together, since we've been together.
Wow, that's so awesome.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, I'm very blessed, Same as my parents
actually.
Yeah, my parents are 70something now and they've been
dating since high school.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
That's crazy.
What a great that's.
I'm sure they're great modelsfor you.
Yeah, how old are you?
52.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Wow, I've been dating since high school.
That is so cool.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, we grew up in the same town and,
although we didn't go to thesame high school, she went to an
all Catholic girls school, orall girls Catholic school, and I
went to a public school, andshe's two years younger than me,
but her, my brother and herwere in the same class.
Oh, okay.
In grade school.
(06:44):
My brother did not go to an allgirls Catholic school.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, I was just trying to figure that out.
That's interesting.
So you met her through yourbrother.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I met her, yeah, and our parents were friends.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Oh, and your parents were friends.
Yeah, that's so cool.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
And then, you know, just to make it even more,
probably less interesting, Herbest friend ended up marrying my
brother, and so you know it waslike this friend group yeah, oh
, that's so cool, that'sactually really cool it is.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
It's very cool, and so are you guys are good friends
or not, really.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We're.
My brother and his wife werestill together and very happily
married.
We're family, but we don't livein the same town.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So we don't see each other as much as we'd like to,
but yeah we're it's awesome.
Yeah, that's so cool.
When did you guys get married,you and your wife?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
We got married in 97.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, 97.
That's right.
Did you guys go to college?
I should be more sure aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah 1997.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Yeah, she went to college at San Jose State
University as an aviation majorand I went to college at San
Diego State University.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Aviation major, what I've never even knew.
That was a thing.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
It was, I believe, at the time, one of two females in
the program and she graduatedas an aviation major, took a lot
of math, science and mechaniclike classes, ended up getting
her single pilot license thatmarried me instead and never
(08:24):
really used it.
Wow, now she teaches.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
She's teaching grade school.
She does, yeah, so does sheever think about flying still?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I don't think so.
No, not at all, I mean, I'msure she thinks about it, but
she's very happy.
Yeah, no, I'm sure she is.
She's doing.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
That's so cool.
I always tell a story that oneof my buddies in college he was
getting his license.
I don't remember if he was likehe had to get ours.
I don't really know how it allworks, but he took me up in a.
It was literally a two-seater.
We were flying like 75 milesper hour in the air and it was
the scariest thing I've everexperienced in my life.
I couldn't believe we weregoing that slow.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
I thought all planes go 300 miles per hour or
something, I have no idea,probably in a Cessna or
something, something like that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
But I want to say it was going like 80.
Does that sound crazy or doesthat sound right?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, we just went up because I had actually never
gone up with her.
And we went up.
One of my good friends has afriend who does license or
lessons at French Valley Airport, right here, oh okay, and so he
, for her birthday, he said, hey, I'll let you guys go up with
him.
Oh, so cool.
(09:35):
And so we went up and she hadto take the controls.
It was fun on the watch.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Oh, that's so cool.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
And, yeah, it was always a passion of hers, but I
think more and it probably getsto a tennis conversation.
What I've always loved abouther, and just love about people,
is actually the experience ofbeing one of two females in a
program that was so maledominated and what that did
(10:02):
beyond just being a pilot, buthow that kind of forms you and
how it makes you who you are andtough, and how you learn how to
push through things and build acharacter and those are things
that I think.
Yeah those are the things thatthat matter, and I think it's
what we have To offer.
(10:23):
When I say we have to offer, Imean because of what I now do
for a living.
I think, it's some of thereally powerful pieces that
organized sports and school dofor people beyond just the,
beyond the winds and losses andbeyond just being involved.
It's how it sharpens and hones.
(10:46):
Yeah, character that, I think,is interesting, and it's really
what's drawn me to tennis morethan anything else, because it's
a sport that, unlike some ofthe other sports, you can do it
with one other person, so youcan keep at it, and you can do
it your entire life, and you cando it no matter what level
you're at.
I think it's one of the reasonswhy you were interested in this
podcast.
Yeah because you can.
(11:07):
You can talk to so many peoplewho are so passionate about the
sport and what the sport offersthem, and Probably never hear
the same story.
Yeah and it really doesn'tmatter the level you are, you're
always striving and trying toget better.
Yeah and it's one of the thingsthat drew me to my wife and has
always Spoken to me is how thoseexperiences so often and as I
(11:31):
talked to my own kids, theyeither make or break you, and I
think tennis has a lot of thatmake or break in it, and it's
what I love about the sport somuch so when we go through
something personally and Thingsbreak us like a lot, you know, I
mean, it happens, right, we'rehuman.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
So what is it about sports that you find like so
intriguing, that like you couldbe broken?
I guess you need to keep usingthat word and feel, like you
know, sad that about a loss andthings.
But what is it about sports?
I guess in general, before wego into tennis, that yeah that
intrigues you so much.
(12:13):
You know because of that, youknow because I I actually it's
weird.
I guess the thing I'm thinkingabout when you were talking is I
Am so happy I played sports inmy life.
I really think it shaped me.
But it's interesting as I'm notpushing my kids into it, even
though I found it so valuable inmy life.
(12:33):
But I it's hard as a parentbecause you don't want them to
get hurt, you don't want them tolose, but it's also valuable
that they go through thesethings, and so I Don't know if I
even have a question, but itwas just the things I'm thinking
about when you were talking.
It was just so Interesting tome because I'm always thinking
(12:55):
about my kids when someone'stalking about something like
that.
Yeah but why is?
Why are sports so valuable?
Then?
Because of that, I guess.
Yeah, I think it's there's One.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
They're so unpredictable, but I think, at
least in my life, one of thethings about sports is that
makes them Important is you havea goal, so there's there's
rules, there's common, there's acommon way that you engage in
(13:36):
the behaviors or in thecompetition, and then, because
there's a common way, and thenyou have a goal, and Most of the
time that goal is to win, butsometimes it, you know, as you
start to play the sport more andstart to understand the nuances
of the sport, the goals getmore complex and complicated and
they begin to become, as youplay sport more often and you
(14:04):
begin to do it Over time, Ithink the winning Becomes part
of a lot of other things thathelp to lead up to the winning,
and so I think you know, goingback to what you had, what you
talked about about kids and I'vechosen to be an educator in my
(14:27):
life, it's what I do for aliving is One of the things that
sport offers that.
I think is so unique is anopportunity for for people to
set goals and To strive toachieve those goals, and You're
(14:48):
not always going to get thegrowth at the rate and or the
level that you want, and so howdo you react to that?
How do you respond to that?
And that, I think, is whatbegins to hone and shape a
person in, in terms of who theyare and how they are when they
(15:09):
react to adversity outside ofsport, and so it's such a great
testing ground for how one dealswith hard times and adversity,
and so when you bring up yourown kids, and how you you want
them, you know, to have fun andyeah
you know, see sport for all thegreat things that it is, which I
(15:31):
think is so true for everyone,but I've always viewed it as
that and how it makes.
How do you in fact, I had thisconversation with my son today,
my youngest son.
You know, oftentimes thingsdon't go right or the way you
plan them to go.
And what a really importantpiece is, how do you react when
(15:51):
it doesn't go the way youthought it was going to go?
And that's the lesson that Ithink sport offers people better
than any other Endeavor thatI've encountered in my life.
I heard a remark the other daythat it wasn't the first time I
heard it, but it it brought itback into my mind.
(16:13):
I played a lot of baseball as akid.
I didn't get into tennis untillater on in life, and In
baseball you are the bestplayers in that sport fail Seven
out of ten times.
You know they're up to bat,yeah, and so you're failing far
more often than you aresucceeding.
When it comes to you know whatyour goal is in terms of you
(16:36):
know, getting a hit, getting onbase, and so that sport becomes
a sport of attrition.
How do you deal with failure?
Because you're failing morethan you're succeeding at that
metric or at that level, andthat to me is One of the
beauties again of what sportdoes for people.
So I would just say to youngkids and I say all the time to
(16:57):
young kids is when we sit downand set goals, winning is going
to be in there somewhere, butit's not going to be the only
goal.
Yeah we're going to talk a lotmore about development and
character.
And then again it inevitablycomes to what happens when what
(17:21):
you thought was going to happendoesn't happen, or what happens
when it gets hard.
What can we build inside of you, what can we develop so that
you, you're able to push throughthe difficulties?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
so, obviously, then if you fail, you learn from that
failure.
But as a parent, then are you Idon't want to say intentionally
putting them in situationswhere they fail, but would you,
I guess, would you like, is that, is that a lesson of itself?
Would you put, let's say you're, you know Joey, your oldest,
(17:59):
when he was 16?
Would you intentionally put himagainst someone Obviously very
better and better than him, tosee how he handles the loss or
to see if he can learn Somethingfrom them?
Do you know?
I'm saying that gets there tosort of different things.
Yeah because I've never thoughtof it as intentionally putting
my kid with someone who's betterso they can lose.
(18:20):
Intentionally I've neverthought of it that way.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So Bringing up my son and I'm outing him here.
He may not like this, but youknow, when he when he started
playing tournaments, he startedplaying the satellite, so not
opens at the junior level.
He was about 11 years old, 12years old, and he started a
little bit later.
He was also one thattransitioned from baseball to
(18:49):
tennis, the.
He played satellites and he wasoh and 11 in satellite
tournaments.
So it took him his 12th match.
What age was this 12 years old.
Okay, it took him his 12thmatch before he actually got a
victory and you know I, I, heand I would talk fondly often
(19:12):
how hard that was at the timeBecause he was playing people
that were better than him.
Yeah, as he was just learningthe sport and and it was, it was
really mentally draining on himand taxing on him and how many
times we would go.
We would always have thisrestaurant we would go to on the
way back from Orange County.
Oh, okay restaurant on the wayback from San Diego, because
(19:34):
that's where the tournamentswere, and we would sit at the
same table and you know he'd bereally upset and I'd be trying
to figure out Okay, how do am I,are we gonna?
Are we breaking them?
Or do you stick with this?
Is he able to handle this?
And so I do think it'sIndividual.
It's.
(19:54):
As parents, we know our kidsreally well.
Yeah and he was able to handleit.
And so after he got that firstwin, you know you, you start to
figure out what works a littlebit better and some of the
things that you talk about inthe sport in terms of strategy
Begin to become more clear.
As a player, but as a father,you know, I think those, those
(20:19):
losses, are what made him ableto Whether adversity in the
sport when he got older andstarted playing in college.
Because Things, as we know, nomatter what level you play,
you're, you're gonna makemistakes and you're gonna face
(20:40):
people that you think you shouldbe beating and you're not
beating, and you're gonna facesituations on the court that you
didn't anticipate and maybeyou're not playing your best
that day.
What do you?
What do you do about it?
And I think he has such a wellto go back to as a result of
those you know first 12 matchesthat he wasn't able to win, to
(21:04):
remember that it's not alwaysyou easy, but to know that if
you don't give up, there's waysto solve the puzzle.
And so I feel like tennis, morethan any other sport, to kind
(21:24):
of start focusing a bit ontennis presents you as a player,
regardless of your abilitylevel.
It has presented me, as aplayer, with puzzles that are
fun to try to solve.
Every single player that youcome up against has a different
(21:45):
thing they're trying to do andsomething different that they're
good at and something thatthey're not quite as good at,
and I just I view it so much asyou know this, in singles
especially, it's the most funpuzzle to try to solve because
it's physical and it's mentaland it's a testament to your
(22:08):
character and that is a funchallenge.
And so I find it to be a reallyfun sport to help young people
work through, largely because ofthe combination of the mental
aspects with the physicalaspects of the sport and then
(22:30):
you know, getting into thestrategy of it all, because when
I look at mental, I'm thinkingmore about, like, the social,
emotional ability of justhandling what is presented to
you on the court, and then youhave the strategy part of it, of
what you're trying to do andwhat they're trying to do to you
, and then you also just havethe physical ability that the
sport presents to you as well,and I think tennis is just the
(22:53):
perfect combination of thosepieces.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, what other sport is sort of like this?
I mean even individual sports.
It's more like playing againsta field of people, Like I could
think of some things like whereyou're sort of trying to get the
highest score and kind of thingand you're not necessarily
playing one-on-one Tennis isone-on-one, right and you're
advancing in a draw.
(23:17):
I guess there's a lot ofphysical sports like boxing,
karate, things like that, butmost other sports aren't really
like that.
You know, tennis is so unique.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, I think of it a lot like and I know I've read
Andre Agassiz autobiographywhich was super well done, but
you know his dad was a boxer andhe often would use that
comparison of boxing and tennis.
And to me it's a lot like aboxing match or maybe boxing is
(23:51):
like tennis as well, in thatyou're trying to solve a puzzle
that your opponent is presentingto you and that you have a
specific amount of time withinthe rules of the sport in order
to figure that puzzle out.
And whoever figures it outfirst is likely going to be
(24:13):
victorious.
And it's a combination of yourability to mentally withstand
what they're presenting, thestrategy that you're able to
employ and how you're able to beflexible and fluid with that
strategy, and just physicaltalent of you and the person
(24:34):
that is across from you, acrossthe net from you, and I think
that's a lot like boxing or MMAor as you say karate or any of
those pieces.
I think those are the bestprobably comparisons.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, so I do want to get to that because obviously
I've always, anytime I've playeddoubles with you, you are a
thinker out there and so not tosay that other people aren't I
think you're the most like.
You are thinking the most outthere when I play.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Okay, I think I will say it makes me chuckle, because
I am also the.
You know, I'm five, seven and ahundred and forty pounds
soaking wet and so I'm not goingout physical anybody out there.
And so it's part of figuringout what, when you look at it
with those three aspects atleast I've always looked at it
with those three aspects whichof what can I maximize?
(25:29):
And I'm not generally going tobe able to maximize the physical
part.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, okay, that makes sense.
So you got to do other stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
I got to do other stuff, the dark arts, yeah, okay
.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
So I do want to get to that Before I do.
I think I even told your sonthis like I'm happy doing this
podcast is talking with people,but it ended up being a thing
where I'm like using people,like to teach me things, and
it's been really nice to be likejust like I get free advice,
like doing this, like it's likea show.
It's a show like come on out,you know and talk with me, but
(26:02):
it's become this thing where Iget all this free advice.
So I'm like learning more andmore each time I do this.
So I want to stay on theparenting thing just a little
more.
That those 12 losses right Fromyour son.
So I think back on this quoteKobe gave when, when Kobe Bryant
, when he was talking about hiskids, like after retirement, he
(26:23):
obviously started teaching a lotof basketball with his daughter
, specifically the one thatpassed away with him, which is
very sad and he I forget whoquestioned him I might have been
, I forget who, but KevinGarnett, maybe I forget he was
on this podcast himself and Kobesaid it like it was understood.
He was like hey, man, you know,we can teach our kids to win
(26:46):
every game he goes, but that'snot the point right now he goes.
I'm trying to teach them and Iforget how he explained it, sort
of other things, and I don'tremember the other stuff he was
talking about.
Sorry, my ears are messing uphere, but it was really eye
opening to me that Kobe was likeI can, because I am who I am, I
(27:06):
can teach my daughter to go outand win that particular game
and in that moment.
But I know it's more beneficialfor her to do it this other way
, where I teach her for the longrun, versus winning this.
And so it made me think aboutthat.
When you're talking about yourson's losses, like how much were
you just like I hope he wins,or were you more just like happy
(27:30):
he was learning, like the hardway or I don't know describe
that maybe.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, it's a really it's a really good question and
I was.
It was a it's really difficultbecause it's your son, it's your
blood, it's somebody you careso deeply about and you're
watching them struggle and whenyou're in that moment we are all
.
At times we all can empathizewith somebody who's in a
(27:57):
struggle and is putting in time.
Like I would go and hit feed myson countless baskets of balls
on hot days where we live, itgets hot in the degrees and he's
, he's putting in the work andhe's trying really hard and he's
committed and he loves it.
(28:19):
And then you know, you get tothe match and it's another loss
into the next match and it'sanother loss, and that's hard on
the parent.
It you know it's.
In my view you have to be aparent to understand this, but
to me it's so much harder towatch your kid going through a
difficult time than it is to gothrough a difficult time
(28:41):
yourself, obviously.
And so the in no way, shape orform was I hopeful that he was
going to have these, you know,11, 12, 11 or 12 losses at the
start of his tennis.
You know, taking tennisseriously and and rejoicing in
(29:04):
that it was every single time.
It was hoping that he getspositives from a sport that I
love.
With that being said, it wasreworking what the goals were,
that the goals for me in theconversations I would have with
him weren't always or ever thatyou get a win.
(29:28):
They were that you are, you co,into the match with an
understanding of what yourstrengths are and what your
weaknesses are, and working onunderstanding the person that's
across from you, because youcan't control that necessarily.
You mean you entered the drawand, yes, there are a certain
age and there are certain, youknow, in satellite there are
(29:51):
certain level, but you don'tknow who they are and you show
up across from them and in thatfive minute warm up, can you
discern what their strengths areand where they're going to
struggle a little bit and canyou do something in the match
that's going to make their timemore difficult.
(30:12):
And so we would celebrate thesmall, those small goals and
those small pieces that, even inthose first 11 and 12 matches,
did not end up in a win, butthey ended up in taking another
step toward understanding thatthere's going to be success at
some time.
So but to answer your questiondirectly, no, it was an awful
(30:34):
time.
Yeah.
But looking back on it, both ofus can say that it taught him
and me that sport is more thanwinning and losing.
Winning and losing matters,absolutely matters, but it was
so much more about gettingbetter and progressing and being
(30:58):
able to understand where, wherethe his game was kind of
shaping up, where he wasstarting to understand how he
can create patterns on thetennis court that accentuate his
strengths and allow him to hitthe ball where and with the
stroke that he's best at and tryto keep patterns away from
(31:28):
places that expose hisweaknesses and that for an 11,
12 year old you know,kid, let alone a 52 year old man
, that struggles with that whenI play on a court is the beauty
of the game, but it's also thedifficulty of the game, and so
at the time, as a parent, it wasreally difficult, but again
being able to have so.
This is what I love about my mychildren deciding that they
(31:56):
also wanted to play sports andthat they enjoyed it is being
able to celebrate the processand being in pain with them when
it wasn't fast enough or whenit wasn't resulting in wins or
(32:18):
victories.
And in those times and thosemoments, I think, are what
create the bonds and that letthem know that you know you're
always going to be there forthem, you have their best
interest in mind and that whenyou look back because now he's
24, my daughter's 21, she didsoccer it those are the best
(32:44):
memories, and I think those arethe unspoken conversations that
you have as a parent and a kid,the experiences that you built
together that communicate somuch more than words can
communicate.
And so, for me, as a parent,sport provided opportunities for
(33:06):
me to show my kids that I'llalways be there for them in life
, in their successes and intheir struggles and we'll work
together on figuring out how wecan make get through those
struggles, and I think they bothunderstand that we're not going
to be able to avoid struggles,but that's what make them that's
(33:27):
what's going to make themsuccessful in life.
So I would hope that, as parentsbecause again, I love what I
get to do as a living and as acareer I would hope that we, as
a society, we don't shy awayfrom putting our kids into
(33:50):
experiences that challenge them,where maybe they're not going
to be successful, maybe they'renot going to be, you know, the
top 2% of the class, or they'renot going to be the you know the
varsity star, but they'replugging away at it and they're
working hard at it and they'reunderstanding how to deal with
(34:15):
things when it doesn't pan outthe way they hoped it would.
Yet that's what I think sportprovides and what we as adults
in education, educators can dofor kids and, when I work with
parents in the educationalsetting, being able to have
(34:36):
conversations like this aboutwhat the goals are and what
we're trying to do and how thatoften takes time.
Those are, I think, reallyimportant, and I hope that again
, as a society, we don't losesight of what the real goals are
, which is creating kind,compassionate, capable, talented
(35:03):
people that our society and ourdemocracy needs in order to
continue to thrive.
So I think we I don't want tomake this you know more than
it's supposed to be.
But oftentimes I think we rightnow in society try to get the
quick kind of fix to what we'reafter and to try to make it
(35:28):
easier for ourselves, but alsofor our children, and I I would
for me and my family.
I've always leaned instead intoplaces where we can learn
together how to deal withstruggle, cause I think it's a
(35:49):
more valuable asset to have inlife itself, and sport provides
that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yeah, when you were talking right now, it actually
it was making me think aboutrunning, because when I go
running, I mean the goal isobviously I need to get back
home.
Right, I don't want to, I don'twant to stop in the middle, but
when you run you don't have agoal.
It's just like the struggle ofrunning and I was when you were
(36:16):
talking right now it sort ofinspired me to think more about
like man, I got to get out andrun more because it's just that
putting yourself through pain.
There's no true like award,right, Like when you go, do it
yourself, you're not facinganyone.
It's all intrinsic, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yeah, so it's just such a cool thing.
The more you were talking about, the more I started just
thinking about why I enjoyrunning.
Cause I do.
I love to put on someheadphones and just go in and
like I love coming home justdead Like I didn't achieve
anything.
No one patted me on the back,no one even knows, like how long
I ran, like I don't even knowif I tell my wife I'm just tired
, you know.
So it's just I was just thinkingabout that when you're talking.
(36:52):
Another thing I was thinkingabout when you were talking,
though, is I've never quiteagreed with participation awards
or participation trophies, butthe more you talked, the more I
just maybe we don't need to givethe trophy, but we do have to
provide our children with that.
Had a boy, had a girl pat onthe back and just say you tried,
(37:16):
and it doesn't matter if youfailed or succeeded, or if
that's even the thing right.
Failure doesn't mean you camein second, and succeeding
doesn't mean you came first.
But I just started thinkingabout this, cause you know it's
easy to go.
Participation trophies those arestupid.
But the more you startedtalking, the more I started
thinking about it.
It's like, man, I got to openup my mind to stuff like that
(37:38):
because maybe they're not so bad.
Like it's like hey, you get anaward for participating, for
actually stepping out of, maybe,your comfort zone, showing up
to something.
Maybe you didn't want to do it,maybe parents made you, I don't
know, but you went through itand like congratulations, kind
of thing.
I've never quite thought of itthat way.
I don't even know if you weretalking about that, but I just
(38:00):
sort of started thinking moreabout it, cause I'm usually
poo-pooing participation award,participation awards, right, but
I don't know about the awarditself, but I definitely give my
kids that participation award.
Like you know that talk likehey, I don't care if you won, I
don't care if you lost, you didsomething out there, amazing.
(38:21):
You put yourself in a scenariowhere you have the opportunity
to come second and lose andyou're still here to talk about
it.
And that's just amazing.
And that's the participationaward in a way.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Yeah, I think I certainly don't want to come
across as someone who is forjust false praise and or praise
for the sake of you showed up.
Yeah, I think that's a longerconversation, but I'm certainly
(38:55):
not.
I don't think there's value inthat.
But I do think that it goesback to what goals have you set
and did you make progress towardthose goals?
And if progress has been made,like discernible progress,
there's data to show that youset out to do this, we worked on
(39:16):
these things and as a result ofthat, you showed progress, and
in that case, I do think that'scommendable.
I don't think the reward is atrophy.
I don't think the reward istangible.
I think the reward is thejourney and the experiences that
were created, that are nowintrinsically embedded in you as
(39:42):
a result of what you'veaccomplished, and it takes
maturity, obviously, tounderstand that.
I mean, yeah, when my son wasgoing through the struggles he
was going through early on bynot getting victories, he at
that time wasn't interested inthe participation trophy.
That would have meant nothingto him.
He wouldn't have touched it andI think most kids are like that
(40:10):
At the time would have spoken tohim.
Most was to see results, and soit was a matter of changing the
perspective of what thoseresults are, to take them away
from the victory or who won thematch and put them more toward.
(40:33):
Where was your first servepercentage?
How many returns did you make?
How many unforced errors didyou have?
How many times did you getpinned on your backhand side?
How many balls did you attackthat were short balls where
you're able to get two feet intothe court?
Those were the things that webegan to talk about and to kind
(40:54):
of work on, as opposed to didyou win the match or did you not
win the match?
It's such a binary yes or no inthat one, and I believe that
one of the reasons why tennis issuch an amazing sport is
because it's not at the end ofthe day.
It's about so much more thanjust a winner or a loss.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
My little one came in to wave to us Close it, mama
she's amazing.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
By the way, she's one of the most positive people
I've ever been.
Yeah, she really is Alwayssmiling.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Just today I took her to get Sonic Burger up the
street.
It's really hot outside so Ihad to have the air cool on, but
she wanted the window down.
She put her arm up.
She said, put on her favoritesong, and she was just her head
out the window.
Just smiling the whole time.
I always call her big teethbecause not that she has big
teeth, but she just alwaysshowing her teeth, always
(41:50):
smiling, and I was in awe, likeI'm, like that's just.
Humans like that are, I don'tknow, just rare.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Don't take that for granted.
I know you don't because that'sspecial, yeah, and she's gonna
be able to lean into that somuch as she grows together.
And I know how much you loveher and I can tell just when you
talk about her.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
But that's the crazy thing I really do have a hard
time finding and that's why I'mso interested in what you're
saying right now and I wouldlove to have this conversation a
lot longer, like over a beer orwhatever, continuously, forever
, because I do struggle withthat.
I just I don't wanna keep herin a bubble because she does
(42:37):
karate, she does tennis, shedoes a lot of stuff.
She's playing down the street,she scrapes her knees, all these
things right.
But it's also that thing ofit's hard for me to figure out,
like where the protection likestops and where I let her fall,
kind of thing.
Do you know what I'm saying?
It's really tough for me latelyand I don't know.
(42:58):
It's been one of those thingswhere me, like I'm constantly
thinking about it, like I don'tknow if I saw her fall.
You know what I mean.
This is a what's it called?
Not a real example, but Iforget, not an analogy, but
whatever it is.
I'm painting the picture.
This isn't a real thing that'shappening.
But if I'm seeing her fall,should I let her fall and then
(43:19):
explain to her people fall andwhat scrapes are and how we mend
the scrapes, kind of thing,versus should I stop her from
falling and then she'll fall inlife.
Obviously, right, I won't bethere, but does dad need to show
her?
Will she find out later on onher own?
Like that's the thing I'mhaving a real struggle with.
It's really tough.
(43:39):
I don't know.
Parenting is so hard.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Yeah, where did?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
this all come from within you.
I mean, like I said, you, whenwe play, you are constantly
telling me about this persondoesn't like their backhand, or
let's do an eye formation herebecause it's gonna mess them up
or whatever it is, and usuallyI'm just out there swinging Like
I'm not really thinking.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Because you're really talented Physically.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Well then that's, but that's a problem, then, right.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Like I think it's an opportunity.
So again going back to at leastyou know I'm just Joe 4.5
player that you know was a 4.0and got a little bit better.
I'm no expert in any of thisbut for me, and what's always
worked for me is I've alwayslooked at tennis, in particular
(44:34):
again at those three aspects ofthe how you handle emotionally
what's going on on the court andthe challenges, the puzzles
that are presented to you, whatstrategies can be employed.
I think is the second piece, sothat's another mental part of
the game, but it's not theemotional part, it's the
(44:54):
strategy part and then just thephysicality of the game itself
how well do you move, howproficient are your strokes,
what breaks down faster, thoseparts that physically you can
improve.
But I don't know how many peoplereally think deeply about the
(45:15):
first two and so for me you knowI don't is it a problem?
You know, tony, are physicallygifted, you know your eye hand
coordination is really good, youmove really well on the court,
you're able to reproduce thestrokes that work for you
consistently and your timing'sreally good.
(45:35):
And so as a result of all thosethings, you can you maximize
that piece, can you get betterphysically?
Absolutely.
You're also getting older, sowhere can you maximize?
some of the other things thatyou can maximize.
Some of the other parts of yourgame you can probably maximize
the.
I mean emotionally you'repretty good on the court, but
(45:58):
that strategy part.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
You know, and maybe that's what you know is an area
where you can even improve yourgame more and potentially faster
is by looking specifically atthat part.
And so I've just always andlargely because of what I've
decided again to do for my life,is I always look at what are
(46:20):
the rules of the contest orwhatever it is that you're
playing and what's required inorder to do it well, and then
breaking it down and just reallythinking in a way that breaks
it down and then so that it canbe worked on.
(46:42):
And again, I think for me thatcomes in large part from the
fact that I'm just not physical,and so in what I mean by that
is, I'm not big, I'm notnecessarily really really fast,
I'm not strong necessarily, youknow, in terms of when you're
(47:04):
matched up against one of theiropponent, and so I've had to
look at things a little bitdifferently in order to be able
to even compete at a level thatI would like to, and so I don't
think that's necessarily aproblem.
I think it's.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
I'm just not maximizing what I guess my
potential then.
Maybe Because you're right.
I see people that are top inthe world in their sport.
As I hate when people say, oh,they're so talented and
obviously they are Right you canwe talk about, like if we talk
about basketball, because Ithink basketball is one of those
(47:44):
sports where talent does getyou a long way.
Like you can pick up abasketball and sort of be good
pretty quickly.
Obviously it won't be great,but it's one of those things
where talent sometimes wins outmore.
But when you're at that highlevel you need the 100% talent.
But you also need, without hardwork, who cares?
No one would know your name,kind of thing, and so.
(48:07):
But in tennis you know hard work.
I'm obviously working hard, I'mobviously like caring about my
craft kind of thing, but forsome reason when I get on the
match I don't think about theopponent, I'm just thinking
about myself.
So when Adam was here in yourseat, he said the same thing as
you, which was during that fiveminute warmup.
(48:29):
He's watching them and I'll behonest with you, joe, and I
don't know if this sounds crazyto you Before Adam said that
I've never once in my whole lifetried to figure out their
strengths and weaknesses duringthe five minute warmup, zero
times.
I've done it Cause I was alwaysworried about myself.
I was like get your forehandstroke good, feel good on your
backhand, that kind of stuff.
(48:49):
Sure, so I must be missing,like a big component of you know
, possibly winning, like youknow what I mean If I'm not
thinking about their weaknesses.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah, for whatever reason, of late I've been
thinking about this for thesport of tennis and I think it's
cause I've hit kind of a lullin my own game, in my own
progression.
Um the that, for me it'sthinking about understanding
(49:21):
your game first and having areally clear understanding of
what you are good at in thissport, what are your strengths?
And I mean I go to a point oflike listing, like literally
formalizing it, and for meformalizing means we're writing
it down and so it exists nowlike tangibly these are the
(49:45):
things that I'm good at.
And so what do we base that on?
What makes you believe you'regood at those things?
Speaker 5 (49:52):
And that kind of reflection, because you can do
it on your own.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
And I always find it better if you're able to talk to
somebody about it.
But what are you good at?
So, if these are the piecesthat you're good at, how do you
make sure that you can beconsistently good at them and
when it's time to play in acompetition, that they're going
(50:16):
to be there for you, you canrely on them.
That it's not that, hey.
On Tuesday my forehand wasamazing and on Wednesday I
couldn't find my forehand.
And on.
Thursday it was pretty good andthen on Friday I couldn't find
it again.
It's that I have this base,that I can always rely on, that
I know these are the things Ican go to, so when times get
hard, I know I at least havethis base.
(50:38):
Sometimes the other playerstrying to solve the same
problems you're trying to solveand so they can sometimes figure
out ways to chip into your base.
But something that you knowabout yourself that's great, and
I think that's one of thethings you're really good at is
I think you know yourself reallywell and you know the parts of
your game that you can rely on,and it's pretty.
(51:01):
I mean, you're a good player andso there's a lot that you have
in there in your base.
But once you have that, then Ithink you think about how you
understand your opponent better,and in a sport like tennis you
don't have a lot of time tounderstand it, and so you try to
get as much information as youpossibly can at least for me, in
(51:26):
that five minute warmup.
You may know a little bit aboutthe player because you've
played them before or you'veheard about them or you've seen
their results, but that fiveminute warmup would then be to
me invaluable.
If you can rely on your baseand what you already know you do
well, then for me the wholefive minutes is all about.
(51:47):
I'm just collecting informationon what it seems like you like,
where you seem to flatten theball out more, where you seem to
hit the ball harder, where,like a lot of people at the
level I play at, they tend towarm up favor the shot they like
(52:08):
the most, and so, if it'stypically a forehand, if you hit
balls to their backhand side.
They're literally running aroundthem and hitting the forehand
and it may be that they're justtrying to warm that up, but it
typically is just kind of thisinvoluntary thing that that's
the shot they like the most, andthen also giving them a few
different balls.
(52:29):
What do they do when the ballbounces above their chest?
What do they do when the ball'slow?
Speaker 2 (52:33):
And you're doing this in the five minute warmup.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
Just like I'm not just gonna give you the same
ball.
I wanna see what you do whenthere's a low ball.
I wanna see what you do whenyou're pinned a little bit
deeper because this is reallytripping me out.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
Those are the I've never done any of these things.
Speaker 3 (52:48):
Those are the pieces that, as the match starts, you
can begin to rely on, and againI wanna say I'm no expert at any
of this, but because I can'trely on my, I don't have the
physical gifts you have.
What I have learned in my lifeof sport that started with
(53:12):
baseball is how do I like?
For me it was when I graduatedhigh school.
I was five foot to 97 pounds.
That's graduating from highschool 97.
I was the smallest kid in school.
I was the kid in high schoolthat wore the backpack and all
you saw was two legs stickingout the bottom of the backpack
Really small kid.
But I love sports and I had tofigure out ways to be able to
(53:37):
play against people that wereway bigger, way stronger than me
.
So for me it was alwaysmaximizing the strengths that I
had, and so that's why I lovedtennis so much.
Once I started to play, it isthat, oh, this is like, it's
like a puzzle, like the mentalpart matters.
And yeah, that game, thatinside game, I can.
(53:58):
While this person's strongerthan me, hits the ball harder
than me, moves faster than me,there are some things I can do
that he doesn't like, thatactually equalize us.
And if I can set up patternsduring the match that allows me,
especially during the importantpoints, that allows me to get
(54:22):
into those patterns that giveshim balls more often that he
doesn't like or in places on thecourt that he doesn't like to
be and me places that I like tobe, I'm gonna win more of those
points, or at least that's theidea.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
And if I don't, you're probably just a little
physical.
So you're the casino.
You just want a small littleedge, Just the advantage, just a
little edge.
Speaker 3 (54:40):
Because you have the edge on the physical side.
That's why I wouldn't say that,but it's a problem for you.
You're maximizing what you have, I'm trying to maximize what I
have and we just that's what'sbeautiful about.
One of the things that'sbeautiful about tennis is we
approach it differently and yousee it on the pro tour all the
(55:01):
time different body types,different people that approach
it differently, but they'realways I mean they hire whole
teams around them to accentuatetheir strengths and try to
minimize their weakness.
Speaker 2 (55:13):
If you were able to somehow physically able to get
stronger, to put on 50 pounds ofmuscle, et cetera, or if I was
able to get smarter or thinkabout the mental side more, we
would be a more complete player.
Obviously it's so easy, butjust saying out loud is sort of
like, of course, but then whydon't I?
(55:35):
It would just sort ofinteresting.
Speaker 3 (55:37):
Because you're a dad and a husband and you have a job
, you're a lawyer, and so and Idon't want that to sound like an
excuse you like to run becausewe do other things.
But the people that I've talkedto, people in the sport of
tennis that have and I even at acertain time, at a certain
(55:59):
level, which is a lower levelsaid hey, I'm gonna like for a
year I'm gonna be all in, I'mthrowing all my chips in, not to
say I'm quitting my job, I'mquitting being a dad, I'm
quitting being a husband, but myfree time I'm gonna put in the
hours every week to just see howgood can I get at this level.
And it yeah, it get better, itpays off.
(56:21):
But that's like we're not in thesport, you and me, as a career.
We're putting our timeelsewhere, and so I think part
of the conversation, what I likeabout this podcast a little bit
is it's for parts of it and forme, this conversation the
(56:45):
things that interest me most arethe conversations with people
who just love the sport and aretrying to get better, but it's
they can't put in 40 hours aweek or even 20 hours a week
playingit because we have other
commitments that we're doing,but when we're playing it, we
(57:05):
wanna figure out how tocontinually maximize our
abilities and continue to growin the game, because it's so fun
, and so that's what I likeabout your podcast.
It's what I like about thesport itself and why I brought
it up earlier, why I was soexcited that my oldest son and
(57:28):
now my youngest son play thesport, is because it's a sport
that, even if you, as you getolder and like me, I'm not and
never was physical, but now Idon't recover the way I used to.
For me, I play less tournamentsdown singles, especially because
it's hard for me to play twogrueling singles matches in a
(57:49):
row, two days in a row andsometimes you gotta play them
twice in one day.
And my body just doesn'trespond that way anymore.
And so you're getting older,but I can still go out and have
fun Saturday morning playingdoubles, or play a singles match
on Monday night.
It's still.
I can still have a good time,but the goals are different.
Speaker 2 (58:08):
And anytime I played an open where they make you play
same day, first day, twomatches.
The second match has been atotal waste.
I've been trying, I'm mentallytrying, but nothing's working.
It's like why aren't thesethighs doing what they're
supposed to do, or you're?
Speaker 3 (58:23):
40, something is old and you're likely playing
against people that are 30 or 20.
And they already have thephysical advantage.
Yeah, that's true.
And so that gets back toremembering those other
components.
And are there things in thoseother components that maybe you
can begin to maximize a littlebit, because you may be able to,
(58:43):
in that first match, still getthe win, but not play the
physical, grueling type of match?
If you figure out a little bitsooner, maybe, how to win more
points or create patterns thatwill allow you to win points
without such a physical grind.
Because you play as good as youare, I think you play a brand
(59:08):
of tennis where you like to hita lot of balls.
That's just the way that I seeyou.
You're very consistent, you canflatten balls out, you can hit
winners.
You could do a lot on the court.
For a person like me.
My favorite matches, thematches where I tend to be most
successful against people thatare at my level, are like three
(59:28):
hours long.
They're long, grueling.
We're hitting 20, 30 shots perpoint because I just love to
stand but just be on thebaseline and spin a lot of balls
in and there's just that thingabout I'm gonna, I am going to
outlast you, and that's part ofthe physical and mental part
(59:52):
that suits my game best, atleast right now and as I have
been playing tennis.
But for you, I think you hit alot of balls.
If you employed the mental sideof it, you may be able to win
that first match in an open andhave more in the tank to be able
to also then come back in thesecond match.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Or the second match, be willing to use strategy
versus just physicality, becauseI've been very upset.
I've come home, won my firstmatch, lost my second match, and
I've been so upset at my bodylike, oh, I need to lose weight,
I need to run more, I need todo this, and it was that.
But it's also now that we'retalking.
(01:00:34):
It's the other stuff, too, thatI never even thought of.
I never thought I need tochange my game because I'm tired
.
I just went out and tried to dothe same exact thing, but I was
tired and I couldn't right.
So, yeah, I gotta start usingmy brain, joe.
Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
And you're playing against guys that you're not.
They're not gonna get tiredJust out of college, they're
still playing they're trying toaccomplish things in their life
with tennis.
Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
you know, they have a tennis goal and, like you said,
we're just trying to get out,be out there and have fun, and
yeah, so it's interesting.
So, man, we've already beentalking for an hour, joe.
I don't wanna end, though, buttell me if was there anything
that started all this with you,where you said it was about your
(01:01:19):
size or whatever in high school.
But was it that, like, were youalways just this way, like
trying to figure things out,like what?
Was it that sort of started youdown that path of trying to be
more of the thinker?
I guess?
I think it's a so and do you doother things?
Like is chess like do you playcards Like do you read, like I
(01:01:42):
don't know what's some otherstuff, I guess that is like this
yeah, I love to read.
Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
I don't read as much as I would like to.
I am, so I guess I would answerthat question, but a lot of it
would be my parents, which is somuch of us.
We are our parents and I had a.
I have a mom that is a really,really, really hard worker and
(01:02:14):
very type A and a perfectionist,and so I grew up with that
being modeled for me.
And there was nothing that you,there was no problem that
couldn't be solved.
And so in adversity, when I wasgrowing up and my family was
faced with difficult times, Iwould see my mom modeling for me
(01:02:38):
yeah, this is a hard one, butlet's sit down together and
figure out how we're gonna solveit.
And so that was in like in mefrom a very young age.
And then my dad, who's verydifferent than me.
He's a brute.
He was a tank driver in theMarines and a police officer and
(01:03:02):
just very physical.
His legs are like tree trunks.
He's built very differentlythan I am.
Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
He's still alive, or no?
Uh-huh, oh, he is, yeah, and hewhen?
Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
was he a police officer?
Los Angeles LAPD oh was no andhe.
So he modeled for me this ideaof of you can always out
(01:03:34):
physical people, which I knew Icouldn't, and you can always
outlast and outwork others, andso he instilled in me the
importance of from his militarybackground.
When you say you're going to dosomething, or when you commit
(01:03:58):
to do something, the worst thingthat can happen is you don't do
it.
The worst thing that can happenis not that you lose or you fail
, because as long as you do, yougive your best at what you said
you were going to do, youdidn't lose and you didn't fail,
and that he showed me everysingle day with adversity that
(01:04:22):
we have as I was growing up, andso those two pieces were
instilled in me and I think Itake those onto the tennis court
with me all the time and Ithink it also is why to answer
your question about, like, doyou play chess, do you do these
other things, what I do?
I'm just a workaholic.
I just love my job and I loveto work and that's where, like
(01:04:45):
even when I talk here, Iprobably referenced being an
educator, a couple times becauseI, just once I commit to
something and I make acommitment that you're going to
entrust your kids with me orwith the organization that I
work with, then you're going toget 120% what we do to make it
(01:05:06):
the best possible experience itcan be, and that translates, I
think, to the tennis court andto this idea that we can.
there's more than just thephysical piece to it.
There's also the mental piece,and there's also the how hard
(01:05:26):
you work at it piece and thenthe emotional side, which I know
we've talked for an hour andwe're done, but it's I think
it's a really important and funconversation to have with in
tennis that hopefully we get tokeep having off air around the
mental side and how you use thewarm-up and have somebody like
(01:05:48):
me who doesn't have the physicalgifts can go far in a
tournament simply by engagingyour brain.
There's a part in that fortennis.
Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Yeah, you know what's interesting though I might be
taking away the wrong thing fromthis, so you tell me if I'm
wrong but if we're talking aboutsort of physical, mental and
the work, hard work,interestingly enough, what I'm
coming out of this with is I cancontrol the hard work.
So I can't always control themental side.
(01:06:20):
Maybe I'm not the smartest, Ican't, I'm not always the most
physical or the biggest orwhatever.
I guess I can control that toowith hard work.
But I think, like you weresaying, I think it's something
might it reminds me of somethingmy dad used to tell me too was
but just outwork them and you'reprobably going to be better
than 90% of the people out therebecause they're not working as
(01:06:41):
hard.
And so he always said thisthing like that, which is just
work as hard as you can andyou'll see, you'll sort of rise
to the top.
Just because of that you won'tbe the smartest, you won't be
the strongest, but outworkeveryone.
And so when you, when you weretalking about I'm, I was coming
away with that, and obviously Ineed to remember the mental side
, the physical side, but thehard work stuff for me is like
(01:07:04):
so valuable.
When you were saying it justreminded me of stuff my dad used
to tell me to yeah, I mean wewill never escape our parents.
Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
But yeah, I also think maximizing the area that
you're best at, which I thinkyou do such a great job at is,
is great yeah and I mean alwayswhen, when we talk, it seems
like you're always searching for, like that next piece, that's
(01:07:35):
gonna like elevate your game andsometimes I think you just kind
of hit on a piece that's soimportant is also leaning into
and lingering or settling in onjust enjoying.
Enjoying the journey and whatyou have and and how you're
(01:07:57):
employing that or using thatright now I think is great.
It's hard, I think, to bereally thoughtful, strategic,
working hard and talented or youhave all the level of
commitments that we have yeahand so sometimes that all of a
sudden makes it not fun yeah andthat's the piece that I think
(01:08:20):
is really important.
Like I think to leave with isthe coolest thing I think that I
enjoy about our relationship iswe both love to play tennis and
as long as tennis is still fun,then, yeah, then I think we're
winning no, you're right.
Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
That's why I so want someone our age 40s, 50s to just
win an open like to me, thatwould be the greatest thing.
I'll probably try to write adocumentary about them or
something.
That would be the greatestthing in the world for me.
I don't just to see like theyput in all the hard work.
They're old, they're fallingapart and they just somehow beat
all the young kids maybe RogerFederer will come back yeah,
(01:08:59):
maybe.
Huh, I mean, what are, what isFederer?
only low 40s probably rightancient for tennis yeah, ancient
for tennis 42 at that levelyeah yeah, before we get off, I
give everyone a gift.
So I went out and bought this.
What I wanted us to do was openit.
You take them all.
But I know you're a bigfootball soccer fan, so I went
(01:09:20):
out and bought tops, chromesoccer for us.
So I just went to this localcar shop I'm like, hey, give me
the latest and greatest soccerpacks, so let's open them.
I won't know anyone's namebesides Messi, I guess.
And who's the other one?
Ronaldo?
Ronaldo, yeah, I know those two,so I'll know those.
Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
But can you name one American soccer player?
Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
I can't give me one, wow, give me.
Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
Just give me one like maybe like a retired one wait,
also place tennis in our area oh, um, what was his name?
And even do that?
Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
oh man, he plays for San Diego teams what's his name?
Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
what was his name again Landon donovan, that's
right.
Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Okay, so I got Stephen burge win.
See, I don't even and the othercrazy part is, I don't even
know these teams.
Hey, jack Amsterdam, is that ateam?
Champions League check?
Okay, so this must be ChampionsLeague cards.
And I never even understoodthat really really nice cards
yeah, they call him chrome, andthey come out really beautiful.
(01:10:20):
Joe Felix, tell me if there'sanyone good here, joe.
Joe, joe sorry.
Joe Felix, joseph stun stunts astitch.
It says future stars.
That might be a rookie cardhe's a youngster, yeah something
to hold on to.
Oh, here's a colored one.
These ones are usually thenumbered ones.
This is a hundred and twentysix out of 199, so they only
made 199 of these name arejunior.
Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
Yeah, you got name are is he good?
Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
you don't know who name are oh he's amazing
Brazilian show name, oh okay.
Oh, I recognize the face forsure.
I recognize his face for sureyeah, he's special so you might
have got a good car here.
This might be special, thismight be um, I know that one's,
that's high level, so what?
Did you get anyone?
Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
good, the one that's probably most known yeah,
definitely is paydry.
I place for FC Barcelona oh,let me see that.
Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Okay.
Oh, that's a nice one too, butthat that might be just the base
card.
So you probably you don'tcollect cards, but nowadays they
make base cards and then theymake short numbered cards and
different colors and and alleveryone's chasing those.
So this is probably still anamazing guy, but the cards
probably not worth that much.
Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
But so beautiful yeah , but card he's a.
Really he's a really goodsoccer player.
Oh really yeah, who cares that?
Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
yeah, so you remember we were kids who just collect
cards because we like them, youknow.
And now so it's sort of sadcards like all your.
It's like the lotto.
You're just chasing this onecard like they make that see
that one was out of 199.
They'll make them out of oneand like it'll say one of one on
the back and that's all peoplecare about.
They don't care who it is no oneof one is special oh, heck,
(01:11:56):
yeah, they'll make it gold andall this stuff, and do you have
any one of ones?
No, I have no one, a one stone,okay, but the best card I have
is behind you.
Some Carlos cards, I have somegood ones.
Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
Yeah, my son has told me about your Carlos collection
yeah so but what a player.
Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
Yeah, but um well, this was my thank you to you,
joe.
Thank you so much, my friend,for coming.
Oh yeah, that fell out shoot.
Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
I knocked it out.
Yeah, thank you, tony.
I appreciate our friendshipthat was so fun.
Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
No, me too, and, like I told your son, like I really
value your friendship.
You and Keith, really, andScott were the real three guys
who originally just made me lovemyriad of tennis club because,
um, I just enjoyed your guysfriendship so much and you guys
similar ages obviously, but justto me have always sort of been
(01:12:44):
mentors because of you guysalways thought of the game
differently and if I just reallyenjoyed that, so I just I thank
you, my friend for coming.
Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
Yeah, how do we get through an hour of tennis
conversation without bringing upKeith or Scott?
Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
yeah, I know, or Tom, or I had to say Tom's name
right before we get off.
Yeah, I say every podcast.
Talk about Tom and ice cream sothat was my mention, tom, and
ice cream at the end.
Thanks, joe, all right man,thanks.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!