Ep. 45 Redefining Success: Crafting a Life of Financial Freedom and Personal Growth (with special guest Andy Moran)

Episode Transcript
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Erin Gray (00:00):
You're listening to Generate a Life Well-Lived
podcast.
I'm your friend and confidant,erin Gray.
I'm a former certifiedfinancial planner, turned human
design, financial mentor andguide to entrepreneurs.
I believe our money and ourbusiness can only thrive at the
level of our emotional wellbeing.
I empower entrepreneurs to feelconfident with their money and
in their business so that theycan have fun now and in the

(00:22):
future.
On this podcast, we will exploreall things money, business and
self-development, includinghuman design.
I hope you enjoy the journeywhere I share everything that I
know and am continuing to learnalong the way, as I honor my
heart's desires while inspiringand encouraging you to do the
same.
Hey, hey, my friends, how arewe today?
So I've got Andy Moran on thepodcast today, and he is a

(00:45):
financial planner that helpspeople in tech pay less in taxes
and also take career breaks,and we have a lot of
commonalities, so I'm superstoked about this podcast to
talk about all things.
We've both taken time off andall the different things in
terms of money and how to thinkabout money differently, use
your money differently, and soI'm so grateful that you're here

(01:07):
, andy, and, yeah, let's dive in.

Andy Moran (01:10):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
As soon as I remember, I think,we met at a mixer and I gave my
story and you gave your storyand it was like, oh man, there's
a lot of residents here.
I'm going to have to follow up.
And then I feel like Iencountered you somewhere else
again and I was like, okay, Ireally have to get.
I already had it on my to-dolist, my checklist.
Okay, reach out to Aaron like,listen to her podcast.

(01:31):
And then I ran into you again,I think another context and I
was like, okay, and then, as Ilistened to your podcast and had
conversations with you, it wasvery clear yeah, I'm really
excited to have thisconversation with you you.

Erin Gray (01:45):
It's very clear.
Yeah, I'm really excited tohave this conversation with you.
Yeah, thanks for thanks forcoming.
Um, you know, I think it'sgetting more and you can talk
about this.
I think it's getting more andmore.
Um, except, it doesn't evenfeel like the, the correct word,
but like, uh, more, what is theword?
Whatever normal is air quote,normal right Of like this idea

(02:09):
of like we can actually taketime off of work, um, and we can
do some of the things that welove.
Like you know, on a previouspodcast I called it like a mini
retirement right.
Like we have, we have builtthis like societal conditioning
into like you work, you saveyour money, you save for
retirement and then you get togo and enjoy your life.

(02:29):
So do you want to share withthe listeners like, kind of,
what has been your story of?
Kind of, yeah, doing thechecklist, following, you know,
following all the air quotesrules, and then now, how you
have kind of kind of almost donelike a 180.

Andy Moran (02:44):
For sure, yeah, I feel there's definitely like
aspects of generationalperspectives on it, its rules,
and then now how you have kindof kind of almost done like a
180.
For sure, yeah, I feel there'sdefinitely like aspects of
generational perspectives on it.
I think, for sure, like certaindegree right, like you'd say,
like maybe the baby boomergeneration maybe grew up in the
era of, you know, getting aneducation, going to school was
going to provide you with thewhite picket fence and the
american dream.
Uh, you know, you just workhard, um, hard maybe collect the
pension.

(03:04):
But I think us, growing up, theidea of a nine to five, to 65,
and that you're going to becollecting this pension, it
always felt a bit antiquated forme, even from a young age.
But I still internalized a lotof the messages you receive
because you're young and youjust take them in and you don't
always parse them critically oryou have to go through the

(03:25):
process, really, at least in myexperience of unlearning, like
actively unlearning the thingsthat were put into your head for
usually well-intentionedreasons, right.
So I was kind of brought up inSilicon Valley where I felt like
you know this kind of message Icould felt like there was
aspects of not truth to it.
I could felt like there wasaspects of not truth to it, but
I grew up in a very Midwesternhousehold.
So I was very focused on, youknow, kind of frugality, you

(03:49):
know hard work, discipline, kindof those values you know very
like debt phobic and very muchlike you know, work hard, grind
and everything will be OK.
So I kind of was following thatchecklist Right.
I threw myself into school, gotstraight A's, you know, crushed
all the standardized testsbecause I thought that's what
you need to do.
You just got to get really goodat test taking, right, you know

(04:10):
.
And then of course, you realizelike life is nothing like the
tests, right.
So I threw myself into college,did pretty well with that, you
know.
Then, kind of professionally,kind of threw myself into that
as well.
I found a nice enough job.
It was at a startup in SiliconValley.
I had, you know, prettyflexible hours, which was
honestly a lot of what kept methere, because I did really get

(04:31):
the value of that flexibility.
We kind of come into the officeMonday, wednesday and Thursday
and a lot of times like peoplewould come in, you know, after
the morning rush hour trafficand like leave before the
evening rush hour traffic it was.
It was pretty nice in a lot ofrespects.
Um, you know, and kind of earlyon there's all this talk of

(04:52):
we're gonna ipo and it was veryexciting because growing up in
silicon valley you really seethe power that there is in like
companies going public to likekind of create transformational
wealth in people's lives, likeyou definitely kind of grew up
seeing that in my own family andkind of seeing it in the Valley
more broadly.
But you know cause I was atthis firm and just kind of over

(05:12):
the course of years, the talk ofoh, we're going to IPO in two
to three years, that startedlike shifting further and
further out.
It started becoming more of anebulous and distant thing.
And you know, a certain point Ikind of found, and you know, at
a certain point I kind of foundmyself, you know, and kind of
within that timeframe I was kindof continued to take on new
positions and I kept learningnew things, so climbing up the
ladder.
But at a certain point I was, Ifound myself kind of being like

(05:36):
a firefighter in chief.
I kind of worked on so manydifferent areas of the product,
that kind of, whenever there waslike a big emergency issue in
production.
They'd be like hey, andy, youcan go fix it right.
And part of me, like Icontributed to my role in this
right, like I threw myself intowork because that was the
toolkit I had.
You, you just work hard, um,and I'd gone through some

(05:57):
deprogramming of my own so likeit wasn't just that all my
existence was around work, likeus, and it was important to have
other things in life and I andI was kind of doing that.
But kind of between where I wasat in in my job with my
profession, and kind of betweensome crazy stuff in my personal
life around the same time,around 2018, 2019, uh,

(06:20):
definitely kind of found myselfseriously burnt out, depressed,
stressed, feeling very stuck inmy job.
And so it's kind of at thatpoint I really hatched a plan to
take my job remote, travel thecountry for a year while saving
money, reset some of my habitsand then kind of take a year off
with those savings.
Now things didn't go exactly toplan.

(06:40):
I moved out of my apartment atthe end of February 2020.
I took my job remote March 1st2020.
I was prepping my van to go toan event in Austin early April
at my parents' house, asmid-March when COVID lockdowns
come in.
So things didn't exactly go toplan, but I was able to still

(07:01):
kind of execute on like the coredrivers of that and it really
changed my life.
Uh, hasn't been the same since.
I was able to do quite a bit oftraveling in 2020.
Um, you know, I quit my job inthat that fall and four years
later, three and a half, youknow, I'm kind of still living
the matic life.
Um, now I'm kind oftransitioned from tech into

(07:22):
becoming a financial planner andI'm one year into kind of
running my own financialadvisory firm.
You know, kind of with thosecore missions of really helping
people take career breaks ontheir own, pay less in taxes.

Erin Gray (07:32):
Yeah, it's.
I obviously, you know financialplanning has been my background
and been around financialplanners and also working with
financial planners and trying to.
You know, as I'm building thiscohort for people to come in and
and and learn, and youdefinitely, because I think you
have had that experience youdefinitely have a different view

(07:55):
from a financial planning viewand I want you to talk a little
bit more about that, because Ithink that a lot of us go to our
financial planner and this iswhat I've heard from a lot of
entrepreneurs too right, it'slike I don't want to do the
normal like in a box thing thatyou know, financial planners
have been taught to do.
Right, like what are some otherways that we can invest our

(08:15):
money?
Or just different, differentideas and things of that sort to
use our money, versus the, the,the stereotypical right Like
these.
These are the ways that you, youknow, should invest, or this is
how you you need, you know youneed to save, and I think a lot
of us are now like wising up forlack of a better word of like,

(08:35):
I want to, I want to use mymoney in ways that feel really
good to me, versus this Okay, wehave to save and like,
accumulate and put all of oureggs, you know, for this in goal
at some point.
You know when we're actuallygoing to get to enjoy, enjoy
life.
So I would love it if you wouldshare, just you know kind of
your take on financial planningand and you know how, how being

(08:56):
off of work has shaped that andjust yeah, different, different
ideas and thoughts that you havearound that.

Andy Moran (09:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
Like I mean I definitely had.
I would say I had a fairlynegative view of the profession
coming into it for sure, like Idefinitely was, like oh, I'm
here as this outsider that'sgonna disrupt it.
But you know, I think mystereotype of a financial
advisor was maybe like a whitedude, maybe like in his 60s or
50s, wearing a suit, who's gonnatry to tell you you got to

(09:23):
diversify and put you in like a60-40 portfolio and that's kind
of that was the image and and tosome degree there's, there's
some truth to that image, rightthere's still some, some.
It is a very older white mandominated profession, um, and I
guess I'm somewhat I mean, I'mnot I'm not as maybe I'm a
little younger, but I guess Istill have present as like a
white man to people, uh, suchbut such as it may be.

(09:45):
Yeah, I mean I definitely like.
Growing up, I probably grew upwith a lot of skepticism of
advisors because I feel likeengineers in general.
My dad was an engineer, his dadwas an engineer.
You know I started on theengineering path.
There's there's a lot ofskepticism of, I think a lot of
engineers feel like this senseof like I can do this thing

(10:07):
which is honestly there, is.
That is pretty awesome thatengineers can go out and kind of
design and create and buildthese things in the real world.
It honestly is really cool.
But I think it can also be easyto dismiss things that you have
maybe less understanding orless skill or aptitude in, not

(10:31):
to say, engineers are usually alot of engineers you know may
also be good at managing theirmoney sometimes.
Um, so I grew up with kind ofyeah, interesting mixed messages
around money because, like, onthe one hand, I feel like I
learned so much about the fearof going into debt, like not
going into debt and and notgoing into debt and honestly to
a certain degree, like there islike I don't like being in debt,
that is still definitely athing where I probably lean,

(10:53):
maybe an extreme of that, likeyou know, continuum.
But I did also kind of learn,you know, the Silicon Valley.
My dad was an entrepreneur, soI kind of got to see like the
potential upside and you know,making kind of more risky
decisions like running abusiness.
So it's an interesting mixedmessage of like very risk averse

(11:16):
, very fearful in a lot of ways,honestly, but also like go and
take that big swing, take thesebig risks.
Kind of different messages.
Go and take that big swing,take these big risks.
Kind of different messages.
And I think in tech that there'sa common it's definitely a
common perspective of kind ofgoing.
You're kind of going for thosebig home runs.
Right, you're looking to startat a small startup, have it,

(11:37):
reach some large enterprisevalue and get a large exit.
Or I guess the other path youknow if you work at like a big
tech company, you're working atAmazon, facebook, google you're
just it's less about like thelarge IPO payoff and more just
you're getting a lot of equitycompensation.
As part of your package, you'regetting a lot of restricted
stock units, which it'sbasically like a bonus, but in

(11:58):
the form of stock.
So anyways, I forgot where Iwas rambling.
I feel like I've diverted alittle bit, but in terms of
alternatives.
So I think one of the bigthings, too is is also like just
getting clear on what it is youwant out of life.
Um, you know, because you think, if you just think in terms of
money, I think money makes likea horror, makes a.

(12:19):
It's a, it's a great servantand it's going to be a terrible
master.
Uh, like if your only goal,like I feel like there's a lot
servant and it's going to be aterrible master.
Like if your only goal, I feellike, there's a lot of people in
Silicon Valley, and not justSilicon Valley.

Erin Gray (12:29):
Yeah, it's everywhere yeah.

Andy Moran (12:31):
It's everywhere.
It's easy to like build, youknow this, I'll be happy when I
have 5 million, when I have 10million, whatever the number is.
And, like part of me, I gotreally into the, the financial
independence, retire early,community kind of, because, like
you know, like oh, I can, youknow, save up to a certain
amount of money, then I couldlive off my investments.

(12:52):
Like there's a lot I still likeabout some of the, the aspects
that community um, but I alsothink that it can almost like
create new false idols of.
Like I got to reach this FInumber and I know for me like I
kind of felt like anchored to,even though my number wasn't
necessarily, like you know, ashigh as some people's, because

(13:14):
it could be a moving target.
Like I've talked to people nowwhere they have like $11 million
and they're like I, you knowthey're like it's not enough
thing out about whether it'sgoing to be enough and it's like
you know your kids are going tonot want to be with you soon.
If you want to spend time withyour kids and have those

(13:37):
memories, you need to dosomething about it now.
And it's easy to just go onautopilot and not reflect on
those things.
But I think for a lot of peoplewe just kind of get in our
day-to-day grind or day-to-dayflow, and we kind of lose sight
of what we're really trying toget out of life sometimes, and
sometimes it takes like thesereally big crises to get, and I
and I hope more people, don'tyou know?
I hope.

Erin Gray (13:52):
I can you know we can meet some of these people
before they get to the pointthat I got to, or perhaps you
got to as well, but such as itmay be, yeah, I want to go back
to debt because a lot of peoplehave, you know, I remember gosh
I don't know if it was on Forbesor if it was on tech, I think
it was on Forbes, forbesmagazine, when Michael Dell was
on there, and this was I don'tknow how many like this might've

(14:14):
been a couple of years ago, buthe was talking about how he was
like everyone was talking aboutgoing to the moon and doing all
of these things.
He was like I know that the waythat things are changing, that
I don't know if you read thatarticle or not but like the way
things are changing, that cloudstorage is going to be a thing.

(14:34):
And so he and don't quote me onthis exact number, but like
maybe he had, he knew thatthat's what's going to be, he
was going to invest in that, andso he did like 75 million right
In debt for this.
But then what was his payoff?
Right, like it was like in thebillions, right.
And so going back to debt, likeI think we've been taught with,
like the Dave Ramsey's or theSusie Orman's or like all of
these, like we, we idolize thesementors of like, oh, they say

(14:55):
no debt, no debt, no debt, nodebt, right, versus.
Okay, well, what are you usingthe debt for?
And, like you were saying with,you know, silicon Valley, like,
are you going to for lack of abetter word make good on the
debt?
Right, like, are you using itto propel you and not from a
place of, like you know, becauseI think it could be a slippery
slope too.
Right, like, are you because it, because it is all energy?

(15:17):
Right, like you are from anenergetic standpoint, you are
withdrawing before you have, youknow, energetically, you know,
created that.
But I think that there isn't aone size fits all with debt and
I think that we as a societyhave been taught like there kind
of is right, and then there'sso much shame around debt.
Right, like, why do we viewlike a mortgage as as okay debt,

(15:41):
but we don't view, you know,like, putting money on a credit
card or business loan orwhatever, to, you know, to to
create something, as that'sdifferent?
You know what I mean.
It's just, it's just this,these ideas that we have around
debt, and so I would encourageeach of you, like you know, like
, like, like Andy, saying like,what do you want your life to
look like?
And starting to make decisionsfor yourself, versus like

(16:02):
so-and-so said and then this iswhat I should do.
You also talked about, you know, people like 10, 11 million,
like it's like this goalpostright, Like we have been taught,
like this number is going togive you the feeling and that is
never at least it's been mycase and people that I've worked
with and helped and talked toright, like that that number is
never going to give you thefeeling that you're chasing

(16:23):
after.
And also it's almost like youget to that point and then you
realize it doesn't and thenyou're like, okay, well, I need
to keep doing more and more andmore right Versus doing work you
love now.
Like living the life that youlove now.
And that isn't a just straightaway of like, ah, spend all the
money now, you know it's just.
It's also like where's thebalance?
And like enjoying your life,doing work that you that you

(16:47):
love and that, like you want toget up in the morning time for
um, versus this, like I got tohustle and grind and save the
money so then I can get to enjoymy life, um, at some point, you
know, in the future.
And I think that that's I thinka lot of us have been I don't
want to say sold that story, butyou know like it's almost.

(17:09):
Like you know, I was on thefire bandwagon for a long time
too, and I was like I'mliterally like almost killing
myself to get to this point.
You know, it doesn't feel goodin my body to like deprive
myself of everything right now,to that in you know, five more
years.
I can actually like I haven'tbeen on many diets, but that's I

(17:31):
could imagine.
That's what it feels like,right, like you're just.
You're just denying everypleasure and enjoyment of the
present day for this fantasy inthe future, you know.

Andy Moran (17:43):
No, absolutely, and I think to your point too.
There's just it's so easy totake these rules of thumb and
turn them into these absolutesthat that govern our life in
ways that's not always healthy.
Like, like these principles,they may be sound generally
speaking, sometimes I meansometimes not but you know
there's, there's definitelyadvice that can be generally
useful, generally practical, butit can still definitely not be

(18:05):
what's ideal for you and andsometimes it, you know, there's
definitely gray areas.
Well, like you know, as afinancial planner, I have to put
on my like fiduciary hat oflike what is the prudent person
say?
But sometimes, sometimes inlife, like I mean, I, you know,
I know, like other financialplanners, that to start their
businesses, they withdrew fromtheir 401k.
Or I, you know, I know, likeother financial planners, that
to start their businesses, theywithdrew from their 401k or they

(18:27):
you know, took on credit carddebt.
You know, while they're buildingit, like these stories exist to
your point about you know kindof businesses as well in debt.
When you mentioned the Dellstory, like I feel like in
America there's really like Ithink of it as like there's
three like main path to kind ofwealth in the American system,
as I view it at least, thatreally you know either have to

(18:48):
own like financial assets ofsome sort or or a business, like
some kind of something that'sgenerating cashflow or some kind
of real estate.
You know owning, really owningassets.
But like of the those are thekind of three main forms that
that the tax code favors thatare more conducive to generating
those outcomes.

(19:08):
And it's interesting becausebusiness ownership is really
risky.
It's kind of like, let's say,index funds.
You can say investing in indexfunds is less risky than maybe
owning a business.
I mean real estate.
You could slice it differentways depending on what you're
like.
If you're just buying the housebecause you want to live there

(19:29):
and it's like I generallyapproach decisions about you
know, I mean there's also like Igenerally approach like
homeownership decisions from thestandpoint of like you know,
the lifestyle that you want tolive Like, are you going to stay
there for a while?
I feel like home should bebecause you really want to have
that lifestyle, not because it'sgoing to appreciate and value
and I'm going to sell it.

(19:49):
I think people have gotten usedto that being the case.
Um it that doesn't.
It's not always guaranteed tobe the case, and I would say the
same thing with with indexfunds.
So, like I you know, I'mdefinitely a big you know
advocate for index funds, um,diversifying, having a, a
diversified portfolio ofinvestable assets.
But stock markets have theirups and cycles too.

(20:09):
It's not a straight line up.
You look at a stock chart, youtake the world index or whatever
.
There's a lot of ups and downsalong the way and depending on
when you invest in and when youexit, especially if you're
trying to achieve a short-termoutcome.
I mean, that's probably why, ifyou're going for a short-term
outcome, index funds aren'tnecessarily the investment you

(20:31):
should do.
It kind of depends on what yourgoal is.
So I think really starting withyour goal and then what you
want to achieve out of it isjust so key.
And, like I said, there's manydifferent ways to approach these
problems and there's differentbenefits.
Personally, I've gotten lucky inmy life at some time and luck
is part of the journey for a lotof generally any kind of

(20:54):
success.
Right, you met the right person.
That connected you to the rightthing.
I had some individual stocksthat I'd been investing in in
the 2010s and when, kind of whenI quit my job, I had saved up
enough just for my salary andsavings to kind of take another
year off at that point.
But then I also kind of gotlucky because I had some
individual stocks that had beenkind of going crazy during COVID

(21:15):
.
But I also you know, there'salso planning opportunities that
are available if you're notworking, like if you're in a low
income year like, oh, I cansell some of these stocks and
pay 0% in federal taxes on them,depending on the state you're
in.
Like, if you're in California,you're still going to pay taxes
on that.
But so there's definitely someopportunities there when you're

(21:37):
kind of in a low income year aswell, so you're able to take
advantage of those and learnfrom that.

Erin Gray (21:42):
That brings me to the point of you know, like one of
the things that you, we, we atleast I've been brought up that
way and kind of like, it's likeyou know 401k or like tax, you
know, um, qualified accounts andlike tax deferred and like
that's great.
And when I started thinkingabout it, you know, like one of
the things they'd say is likeokay, cause you're going to be
in a lower tax bracket when youretire.

(22:03):
It's like, actually I don'twant to be in a lower tax
bracket when I retire.
You know, and you know thinkingabout like are you investing in
other places besides justqualified accounts?
Because if you do want to usethat money like which I have
right, like and I worked throughthe emotional part of it Cause
you were taught like never touchthat money before 59 and a half
but like you are paying taxesand penalties you know what I

(22:25):
mean Versus, if you were to dosomething like in a
non-qualified we're just in aninvestable account, right, like
you would just pay long-termcapital gains on that, you know.
And so there's so manydifferent.
I think, like what you're sayingis so powerful, andy, of like
what is the goal?
Because I think we are just liketaught with okay, this is the
way to do it, or you know thisis, you know, minimize taxes.

(22:47):
Like we're so focused almost ina way of like from a scarcity
standpoint, right, like I haveto minimize taxes.
Like I've talked to businessowners, I'm like and they're
like talking to me about, youknow, invoices for the year and
things of that sort I'm likejust bill it, just do it.
Like well, you know like we'llworry about paying the taxes,
but like almost like shootingthemselves in the foot.

(23:08):
You know, because we're been soconditioned of, like minimize
taxes, minimize taxes versus,yes, you want to be wise with
paying taxes, and how can we usethe tax law to minimize our
taxes but not at the expense ofour revenue generating?
You know activities and thingsof that sort.
So, you know, would you be opento sharing like just some just

(23:31):
general things that you kind oftalk to different people're
saying you know what are somethings that during that time you
can kind of take advantage of?
You know of of those lowerincome years, as if you're
taking time off or you knowyou're just getting started in

(23:54):
your business, things of thatsort.

Andy Moran (23:55):
Oh, for sure, there, like you say, there's um, yeah,
like it brings up a fewdifferent things in my mind.
Yeah, kind of.
On the topic about future taxrates, it's definitely kind of a
I want to talk about puttingmoney into Roth accounts where
you've kind of already paid thetaxes and theoretically you can
withdraw that money tax-free andpenalty-free in the future.

(24:17):
But when we're talking aboutfuture tax rates, these are
things that no one knows forsure.
These are all just guesses andso much of financial planning is
is working with like the bestguesses based on the information
we have, um, but but thecircumstances are changing all
the time and I I totally I'mwith you on the the taxes thing.

(24:38):
So I know, in financialplanning I the phrase you hear a
lot among the profession islike letting the tax tail wag
the investment dog, or waggingthe financial planning dog,
because it does become like thisalbatross.
That can be hard.
So actually that was kind ofone of the things that I feel
like I felt like I was going tohelp people with in terms of the

(24:58):
focus was there's a lot ofpeople let's say Silicon Valley
that you know if they hadinvestments in companies, that,
in companies that went booming.
They have investments in maybetheir own company through RSUs
that they didn't then sell.
They may have these kind ofconcentrated stock positions.
But the fear of the tax billkind of results in a lot of
people not doing anything rightBecause they just hold on to

(25:20):
these things and they kind ofjust keep increasing.
In some cases, I mean in somecases, the market takes care of
it for you and brings you,brings it back down.
So you know you can kind of cutboth ways, depending on your
and this is where luck um.
So, but I feel like when you'rein a situation like you might
have a low income year, it does.
You know, looking at from afinancial planner perspective, I

(25:42):
do think of it as anopportunity to invite them to.
The prospect of doing itwithout the tax impact is a way
to approach the discussionaround things that I feel like
they should probably already behaving, but it can be an
enticement to get them tofinally take the movement that

(26:02):
they might have been afraid to.
So, for instance, one of the bigones being, if you're not
really earning any income, youcould harvest a fair amount of
appreciation in your stocks.
So if you have stocks thatyou've held kind of more than a
year and it's what they calllong-term capital gains rate if
you're not making any income.

(26:22):
So I don't have the exactnumbers you know, but but at
least at a federal level.
So, depending on your state,there may be state tax impact,
but like, if you're like amarried couple and you're filing
together, um, you know youcould, there's a certain
exclusion.
I think it's maybe like thirtytwo thousand dollars if you're
not itemizing, or something likethat.
Right, yeah, and maybe there'sanother like eighty80,000 of the

(26:44):
cap.
So basically, you can likeharvest, you know, somewhere
around $100,000 a year as amarried couple in the gains, not
even just like the total valueof the stock, but like how much
it's gone up.
So that's a valuableopportunity for people with
maybe they have likecryptocurrency or they have
individual stocks that kind ofblew up.
This is probably moreapplicable a few years ago, but

(27:08):
I've seen that Bitcoin's back upagain.
So these kind of things recurand there's cycles to these kind
of conversations, but they'rekind of rooted in these more
timeless principles.
So, yeah, 0% long-term capitalgain harvesting is a big one.
Another is kind of theconversation around Roth
conversions while you're in alow tax bracket.
So you have money in a 401k orsome company plan, but in a year

(27:33):
you're not earning income.
You could theoretically converta lot of this to a Roth account
, which then you've already paidthe taxes on it.
But while you're in that lowertax bracket um and roth accounts
too they also have someadditional flexibility.
I probably should havementioned this earlier.
We talked about the tax timingthing, but with the roth

(27:53):
accounts in particular, versus atraditional 401k, they kind of
have this interesting propertywhere the the actual like
contributions to the rothaccount that you can kind of
withdraw those in five yearsinstead of having to necessarily
wait until.
So it provides some interestingLike the maybe quote-unquote
ideal situation is really thatyou're placing your more

(28:14):
aggressive high-growth assets inthe Roth account, so that kind
of the amount that you'renetting post-tax in the long run
is the highest.
That's kind of like thetextbook theoretical case, but
in practice there definitely issome opportunities.
It can almost function like aquasi-emergency fund of like oh
I could, especially if you don'tneed it for those five years.

(28:36):
So that is kind of a commonstrategy in the financial
independent community is aroundexecuting these things.
They call Roth ladders, whereyou kind of basically run these
conversions in a way that youkind of have availability to
these funds in five yearstax-free.
So as you're getting close tothat 59, so maybe you're in your
early 50s you might starthaving a strategic plan using

(29:00):
those tools to get there.
There's also another techniquefor people.
They have incentive stockoptions, they kind of, and it's
a form of equity compensationwith kind of some unique
properties and interestingchallenges as well.
So, like when you exercisethese incentive stock options,

(29:21):
they're not subject to likenormal taxation at all if you
don't sell them, but you canincur like this thing called
alternative minimum tax, whichis like this parallel tax system
.
So ISO planning is weirdbecause you really have to run
the numbers on these twodifferent systems and then kind
of iterate from there.
But if you're in a low incomeyear, there's a certain amount

(29:43):
of income that kind of getsexcluded from amt calculation
right off the bat.
So I, I think, I think thisyear it might, it might be like
75 000, don't quote me on thatbut like theoretically, there's,
like you know, some amount ofspace to convert or exercise
some of these isos withouthaving to incur amt.
There's also, you know, ifyou're on student loans, you

(30:07):
know you could recertify yourstudent.
If you're on an income drivenkind of plan, if you have
federal loans, you can.
You know if I could likerecertify that right away.
What does that mean yeah, so youcan kind of get them to like
reassess your income and giveyou, like, a new rate of payment
.
So if you're not earning anymoney, your payment, you know

(30:28):
could close to low anddrastically reduce that kind of
monthly expense that you'd haveto incur.
And I should have double checked, but I'm pretty sure for most
of those, I think you have torecertify, like the next year,
but I forget the exact specificson it but there's basically a
period of time where you cankind of get, I think, when I

(30:50):
forget exactly if you have toreport when you get a new job.
So don't quote, but butbasically there's just another
ability to kind of create longerstretches of time where you're
not having diabetes anddepending on the state you're in
.
Like, health care is a bigthing and that's that's one of
the big things I navigate withpeople.
Thinking about career breaks iskind of you know how do I so
much of the American medicalsystem right is kind of built

(31:11):
it's, you know, not a, not a.
I don't love it.

Erin Gray (31:14):
It's not a healthcare system.
I'll say it it's not awellbeing system.

Andy Moran (31:19):
We gotta, we gotta make the insurance companies
profit somehow, Erin.

Erin Gray (31:23):
Man between that and the pharmaceutical companies.
I'm just like wow.

Andy Moran (31:30):
But depending on your state, you may you may be
able to qualify for Medicaid.
Certain states have differentrestrictions around whether you
could own assets or how theyassess your income, blah blah
blah.
But certain states Medicaid canbe kind of a great way to kind
of get some health coverage andhave it all be covered.
So anyway, those are kind of afew of the kind of topics and
tactics for those kind of lowincome years.

Erin Gray (31:50):
And I want to bring up, like how important it is to,
I think, some of us that workwith CPAs, where we think of it
like okay, it's my like.
I'd be curious to know for you,to your clients of like oh, it's
time for taxes, versus likeactual tax planning, like I'm
thinking of doing this, or theseare my kind of ideas over the

(32:11):
next year, two years, threeyears, like really forward
thinking planning for like howdo we optimize this, working
with you and the CPA to figureout like what is kind of you
know and there's when I saystrategy, like obviously
ultimately coming back toyourself and like what feels
good, you're knowing that kindof stuff but like give me some
ideas, like what you were justsaying about the student loans,

(32:33):
you know like no idea, had noidea about that, Right, and so I
think there's a lot of thingsthat are out there for people
that either we're not talkingabout it, we're not sharing it,
we don't and, as the consumer,like we don't know about it, so
we don't even know the questionsto ask, to even know that this
is a possibility absolutely.

Andy Moran (32:52):
Yeah, I feel like that's definitely the tax
planning is.
So that's kind of one of thereasons I focus on it in the
marketing is it's just.
It is such a pain point thatpeople feel like a lot of times
people when, when I, when yousay you're a financial planner,
they may not really like knowwhat that, what that even is or
what that fully means, like theymay know, like it's associated
with money somehow, maybe theythey think, oh, it's around

(33:12):
investments, um, but really it's.
I mean, at least the way that Iapproach it for me is like it's
really around, like what kindof life do you want to live?
And then kind of like how canwe work to make that possible
through the system that we haveand kind of the resources that
you have?
So yeah, the tax planning pieceI feel is very important
because everyone feels the painof taxes in their life.

(33:34):
So it's kind of a thing that'slike a more known and understood
thing.
But I think most people theythink of it as, like you know,
you give your documents to theCPA.

Erin Gray (33:43):
It's like, okay, they do my taxes right.

Andy Moran (33:46):
But it's like no, you can like strategize around
how you want to potentially likerealize income like how you
want to.
You know, maybe you want to,especially if you're like a bit
like for business owners andsolopreneurs.
You know you can have aself-employed 401k and put a lot
more money into those than youcould on the kind of the
consumer end 401k at a company.
I think the I think this yearit's something like $70,000 or

(34:12):
somewhere in that ballpark thatyou can.
So if you're a business owner,let's say you're at a 35% tax
bracket, that's a prettysignificant tax savings if
you're deferring, I mean whetherthat's long-term optimal,
that's kind of another question,because there's definitely
advantages to also and there'shonestly benefit to, I think, to
a certain degree from atactical perspective, having
some funds in each of thesetypes of accounts gives you

(34:35):
different leverage, right Likethere's some cases where you may
need to realize more income, inwhich case having money in a
401k could be a way thatactually generates some of that
income versus like.
If you have all your money inRoth accounts like, that's
awesome, that's great.
But like you basically wastedsome of that income versus like.
If you have all your money inRoth accounts like that's
awesome, that's great, but, likeyou, basically, are wasted some
of it because you could haverealized some income and not
paid any taxes on it.

(34:55):
So a lot of these will, youknow, vary depending on your
specific situation, but I thinkso much of it tends to be like
iterative kind of you know,planning out a kind of a course
of you know, maybe like lookingahead to to the next couple
years and tactically, likewhat's coming up, how can we
strategize around it, and then,as those events occur and life
happens, like the reality islike this, I feel modern life is

(35:17):
very dynamic.
like you know, you look backlike three, three year, like two
years, three years, five years,at least for me, like my life,
I feel, was very different ateach of those points yes you
know, and I feel like trying toproject out two, three, five
years, like yeah, it's, it's not, it's not a bad idea to have
like a direction and like acourse, but like you also have

(35:39):
to be flexible with that andrealize that things change.
Right, that's just the natureof reality yeah, I 100 agree, we
.

Erin Gray (35:47):
I was sitting down with our daughter she's gonna
turn 12 and at the time when shewas born, we were working with
our financial planner and welived in Texas at the time, and
so I was telling Grayson, likeokay, well, we did this.
It's called the Texas tuitionpromise fund, which, basically,
in Texas, it was like you put alump sum of money in, right.
And I'm like, okay, well, howdoes that?
First of all, like Aaron, backthen she was doing the best that

(36:09):
she could, right, like, shewanted to make sure her child,
you know.
But like now, my kid is like Idon't even know if I'm going to
go to school, mom.
And like, am I even going to goto school in Texas?
Which probably not, right, like.
And so it's just like whatyou're saying.
Like we, I think that what we'retrying to feel when we're

(36:30):
trying to plan so far ahead issafety and security and
certainty.
Right, and so many of us havebeen taught that by doing
something that's going to bringthat feeling, versus knowing and
becoming and generating thosefeelings within us.
Because, you know, now I lookback and I'm like, okay, I mean,
we could, we can take the moneyout.
It's our money.
But it's just like I literallywas my baby was a newborn, right

(36:51):
, and we were planning when shewas going to be 18 and like what
you know what are the units incollege and all of this kind of
stuff.
And now it's like that cannoteat, like it could probably be
so one 80 and farthest from thewhat might happen, right.
And so, really, just likeyou're saying, andy, of having
the knowledge and having alsothat flexibility, right, like,

(37:12):
okay, let's try this and let'sdo this for a year or two and
then let's reevaluate.
I think so many of us think,okay, that is the plan, we're
going down this route for 18, 20years, you know, versus, like,
like you said, like my life,your life is so vastly different
than it was several years ago,like allowing for that
flexibility and for that freedom.
I want to go back real quick,just because I'm curious.

(37:34):
So, the self-employed 401k andI know I'm not holding you to
the numbers, but I'm trying toremember with the SEP IRA and
the self-employed 401k, is therea difference tax-wise or is it
just a dollar amount?
But the SEP are your employeesable to do that as well?

(37:55):
I'm trying to pull back mymemory.
I'm like I cannot remember.

Andy Moran (37:57):
I think the big thing with the SEP versus the
Solo is it's a little lessflexible.
If you want to have, I thinkthe big thing with the SEP is
it's only employer contributions, so employees can't contribute.
So the solo one 401k has alittle more flexibility because
you can kind of contribute, likeif you're a solopreneur, you
can kind of contribute as theemployee and as the employer.

(38:18):
So SEPs, though, the big thingis like if you're offering them
whatever contribution thatyou're offering yourself, you
kind of also have to offer it inkind too.
So maybe you don't want tooffer to employees the same
structure that you want to setup for your own, and that,
versus like a 401k, is a littlemore flexible.
You could have employercontributions but you could also

(38:39):
kind of have that employeeflexibility where they can put
in their own money, you canmatch them or whatever else
maybe.

Erin Gray (38:45):
Yeah, that it brings back to days, they're a little
simpler to create though maybe,yeah, that that, um, it brings
back to days.

Andy Moran (38:50):
They're a little simpler to create, though.

Erin Gray (38:53):
So in one 401ks there's a little bit more.

Andy Moran (38:54):
like I was going to say, when you get up to a
certain amount of assets,there's an extra, yeah, there's
an extra layer of compliancewhere you have to file like a
form with the IRS it's.
I mean, there are companiesthat will kind of do potentially
a little more flexibility, um,to the types of ways that you
want to set it up.
Um, I, I want to say a bunch ofstuff, but then I'm like not

(39:17):
sure if this is correct, Cause Ihaven't.
I haven't been in this, thisspace, for the steps for a while
.
I remember, you know, a yearago, when I was studying for the
CFP exam, I had all this stuffdown.
But then you know, when you gointo the field and you're
actually doing the work right,it's much more like, as it comes
up, you're like, okay, I knowthe lay of the land where I need
to look, but you're notnecessarily like, in any given
moment, like you don't need toknow every everything.

Erin Gray (39:39):
No, it's, it's it.
That was one of the things thatI really had to learn, because
I used to have such anxiety withmy clients, because I put so
much pressure on myself to knowand I'm like, wait a second.
When I call my CPA, they tellme nine times out of 10, I don't
know, let me go look it up.
Why am I expecting myself toknow every single thing for
every client?
And like what you're sayingwith the, when you said that

(40:03):
with the SEP it's definitely Ithink it's an employer funded
side versus the 401k right, likeyou get to and you can do
different things of you knowprofit sharing and matching and
all kinds of stuff.

Andy Moran (40:13):
And so I think, like what you're saying, um you know
I could be wrong here that mythought was like I feel like
maybe they don't support RothRoth accounts.
I may be incorrect on that.
I need to circle back anddouble check on that.

Erin Gray (40:24):
Yeah, oh, a SEP IRAs you mean mean, yeah, I think
it's just traditional IRA.
And hey, to all of youlistening and watching, go do
your own research.
We're just giving you someideas and some thought processes
to take and run with it andlittle nuggets to think about
differently.
But, yeah, I think that andlike anything right, it's like.
This is the sentiment I keephearing from people is like I

(40:46):
don't know what I don't know.
You know, like I, there was alot of things that I either
brought to my family'sconstruction business or I
learned on the job while we were.
You know, um, like you'resaying, like with the 401k and
like all of the TPA, which isthird party administration, and
just like the.
You know IRS regulations andlike that stuff.

(41:06):
You learn in real time likesome of that can be sped up.
You know IRS regulations andlike that stuff, you learn in
real time Like some of that canbe sped up.
You know, through eitherworking with someone that knows
that stuff, and sometimes it'sjust like now we're in this
position.
Now I need to figure it out,you know.
So, um, would you love to shareabout like advice only,
financial planners likefee-based or is would you?
Would you term advice only andfee-based in the same category

(41:28):
versus kind of uh?
What would you?
Would you term advice only andfee based in the same category
versus kind of uh?
What would you?
How would you kind ofcategorize other financial
planners that kind of likegenerate income over your total
assets and things of that sort?

Andy Moran (41:41):
yeah, there's all kinds of different labels and
some of them, you know, maybemore or less confusing the
consumer, like to.
Certainly, I feel like advisorsprobably care about these
labels more than consumer.
Although I definitely came intoit, um, you know, my
perspective was I always feltlike an advisor collecting what
they call the assets undermanagement.

(42:02):
Aum, yep, I I always was kindof like viewed it as like shoot,
they're just trying to likecollect rent was the words and
kind of the phrase that I had touse to describe that on my I've
.
I've since like realized like Ifeel like every model has got
its pros and cons.
So so maybe, like I'll startwith kind of like some basics,
like even when you get licensedas a financial advisor, so like

(42:26):
it kind of.
For me, my path started when Ikind of had a friend who
approached me for help withinvesting.
He'd had a successful businessand was kind of looking for help
on the investment side and thatkind of really kicked off in me
.
I was not looking to make acareer change at that point.
I was kind of I had juststarted my own career break.
I was.
I was actually kind of lookingat maybe doing like freelancing.

(42:47):
I had been doing more webprogramming the last couple
years and I could maybefreelance around there.
I started taking a machinelearning course.
I was like I kind of want tolearn a little bit about that.
But I had this friend approachedme for investment help and it
just, you know, I was like whatis even required to do this,
like legally, as like anindependent, you know person?
So I I learned that thelicensing is kind of not.

(43:10):
It's interesting there's a fewdifferent paths to licensing,
that a financial, any like afinancial advisor quote unquote
can mean many different things.
Um, it can mean, like at onelevel, people that are licensed
to sell insurance products oftenanswers like I'm a financial
advisor but like fundamentallythey're there to sell insurance
products, right, and there's, sothat's, there's a licensing

(43:32):
that's specific to that.
There's also like a licensingthat's specific to selling
investment products.
Like you make money sellingcommissioned mutual funds or
commissioned like annuities ordifferent kinds of products.
I actually I think annuitieswould fall under the insurance.

Erin Gray (43:47):
Well, let me yeah, no , no, no, I think it is under
the series and I just want tosay that there are different
licenses for investments, right,like, because I knew people
that took, like, and I knowwe're going down a rabbit hole,
but I think it's important toknow, right Like, there are
people that you can take, like,a series six, right, but I had
to take the series seven, whichwas a much more in detailed, and
so there are differences of,like, what you can sell based on

(44:09):
the licenses and the tests thatyou take.
So, and and I don't want tothere's no good or bad right,
it's just like knowledge andknowing, like what does your
advisor hold?
And like what you know, whatcan they sell?
Oh, and I want to talk aboutcaptive and non-captive, but go
ahead and keep talking about thelicenses and things of that
sort sure, yeah.

Andy Moran (44:30):
So then kind of, on the other, so if, if you want to
sell advice but you don't haveany like commission products to
sell, you don't get anycommissions off of investment
products or insurance products,there's the series 65, um, so
that's kind of what most likemost people that are like I'm a
fiduciary financial advisor,usually it's like they hold like
the serious 65 is kind of likethe basic license to hold, which

(44:52):
is really not that high of abar.
Like you know, it didn't takeme a lot of studying to pass
that test.
To be honest, if I'm, it wasnot.
I mean, definitely as soon as Ipassed the test I'm like I
realized, yeah, I really don'tknow enough to do this in charge
of people's money, like no way.
So like that was just thebeginning of my journey and then
, kind of from there, I took theCertified Financial Planner

(45:14):
coursework and they, you know, Istarted doing like externships
and masterminds and I was, youknow, really like learning from,
like people that had been doingit, people that are, you know,
in the best, like the top 100financial advisor lists, and a
lot of those kind of folk Istarted hanging out with
learning from.
But anyway, so fee-only versusand fee-based are kind of based

(45:38):
off the idea that so fee-basedadvisors will be able to
potentially charge a fee that'sdirectly for the advice and they
may also have commissionedproducts, as opposed to someone
if they're only making moneythrough these other products.
Fee-based means that you cancharge a base fee at the core.

(46:04):
There may be ancillary servicesthat commissions are earned on.
After Fee-only is this of likehey, we're not incentivized by
our commissions.
Like our advice is unbiased,it's just based off what's in
your interest, right?
Yep, and I think that reallykind of came into play a lot in

(46:25):
the 90s and kind of has grown alot over the last 20, 30 years
At least that's my perspectiveas an outsider from what I hear
and there's been a lot ofvariations and evolutions of
that now where I know there'sfolks that are like we're a flat
fee planner where we onlycharge like a flat fee and that
may include investmentmanagement or not.

(46:47):
So when I launched my firm, Istarted as what they call advice
only, which is like we don'teven offer investment management
in case for people that areafraid that you know the fact
that you could manageinvestments creates a conflict
of interest.
So I have kind of moved awayfrom that to where I now I'm
offering, like, like investmentmanagement is an optional thing

(47:08):
for me, like I don't need tomanage your investments, right,
I kind of charge the same feeregardless.
If people want to do itthemselves or if I'm going to
manage the investments for them,I just charge a flat fee for
that.
But it is kind of interestingto me just, yeah, all these new
models evolve to serve newsegments.
Because, like I came in, youknow, with that whole thing of

(47:30):
like I would have sought out anadvisor myself in the case of
where I really felt that Ididn't know what I didn't know,
because like I kind of knew thattheoretically but like I didn't
feel it was enough of a painpoint for me to have ever
searched out an advisor.
Um, in my head I always thoughtof it as if I find out my
company is going to ipo.
That's when I probably want toreach out to someone, because I
knew about alternative minimumtax.

(47:51):
I knew about these things.
But then actually puttingtogether, calculating that tax,
strategizing around it and theimpact it has, that's kind of
where I felt like, okay, I woulddefinitely need to reach out to
someone in this case.
So I kind of started with thatmodel but it somewhat evolved
because I realized, or one ofthe things at I feel like the

(48:16):
end, like there are people thatdo care about it, but like no
one's like coming to yourbusiness just because you have a
different business model.
Right, you can be like this isme, I have this unique model but
, like you know, peoplefundamentally care about.
Can you help me with my problem?
Not like, are you running?
Like the most pure business?
Like you know, and and and it'seasy to get fixated on with

(48:37):
these ideas of like puritybecause, like, like, I grew up
with a strong kind of a liketraditional, faith-based
upbringing where I think a lotof that still stuck, of like
this idea of like this purity ofwhat I'm offering, but, like
the consumer, it doesn'tnecessarily.
I mean, there are some peoplefor whom they they seek out
those kind of planners, and I'mglad there are more different

(48:59):
types of planners out there sopeople can find the kind that
maybe fits with what they'relooking for.
Um, but also, as you say, likeI've seen sometimes you, you go
into it thinking you want athing, and then you, so a lot of
people come to financialadvisors.
They come to us like for athing or two, yeah, but then
they kind of don't realize inthe process, like all the other
stuff, that we're it's likeweaving down a little rabbit

(49:21):
hole right Like yeah, I meangoing back to like you don't
know what you don't know.

Erin Gray (49:25):
And then you talk to someone who does this all day,
every day, and then you get moreclarity and you're like, oh,
but then this and this, and thenthis stuff starts to come out
of you know the purity part.
It's like I would much ratherwork with someone who is
genuinely loves what they'redoing and like the relationship
is there.
Like I have over the.

(49:46):
You know I had a planner for along time but it became very
transactional based.
It was like okay, here's my youknow annual or quarter like
call to you versus like thisdoesn't really feel fun.
You know what I mean.
Like and I think that's I meanthat is something really
important.
Like I want to go work withpeople like that want to have
some fun and like, oh, I'm goingto go meet like because I think

(50:06):
we already have so much heavyfeelings around money already.
It's like going to talk to yourCPA or your you know attorney
or your financial planner.
It's like let's have some funwhen we go do it.
Like that to me is for me,that's my belief, right.
Like that weighs more heavilyfor me than like someone that
knows all of the things and islike oh, I got to go see

(50:30):
so-and-so because it's time togo.
Do that, you know.

Andy Moran (50:34):
Absolutely, I definitely like that.
I feel like that's definitelywhat proved to be the case, at
least, kind of working with myfirst few clients.
I feel that most people, theythey chose to work with me
because, like maybe I was alsohad been in tech or I had been a
programmer and kind of thingsthat they could resonate to in a
way that, like a traditionalfinancial advisor wouldn't
necessarily have that samebackground.

(50:57):
And even as is now, likeactually I just literally
yesterday I was sendingpaperwork to a new client too
they kind of were alreadyworking with an advisor but
they're like I don't feel likemy advisor gets me, like I they
kind of felt they didn't reallyfeel very understood or and kind
of when I was like digging intolike their situation, I was
really surprised that the thingstheir advisor hadn't been
talking about with them, likereally you don't talk about,

(51:18):
like you know your your like asa business, as someone who's
like doing freelancing, likethey're not like preparing you
for your tax bill, likethroughout the year, like
they're not working, like to meI'm like that's like table
stakes, right, this is just likebasic.
You know the stuff that ifyou're serving business owners,
that you know it's a huge painpoint.
It's a huge part of the valuethat you can help people with.
So my very first client, too,he was like I like that you're

(51:42):
not driving the fancy cars.
And he's like, hey, I like thefinancial advisor who lives out
of a van and is traveling aroundand living his best life.
I found a lot of peopleresonate with that and,
ironically, a lot of CPAs andaccountants.
I feel like a lot of.
I don't know if it's like thestereotype of like this life
that's interesting and exoticversus the stereotype of, maybe

(52:03):
a typical.

Erin Gray (52:03):
I think you're living the life they want.
I think that's what's happening.

Andy Moran (52:07):
I feel I'm.
I look at a lot of times I lookaround at people that are they
like to talk about howsuccessful they are and all this
stuff.
I'm like I'm pretty sure I'mliving a much happier life and I
don't mean that, to say thatlike in an egoistic, you know,
but I, you know it's.
You can have all these numbers,you can check all the things on
the box so you can be verysuccessful Like I, I know, in

(52:29):
Silicon Valley.
I've seen people with you knowlarge exits and, like you know
tens of millions of dollars thatare not that happy, miserable.

Erin Gray (52:36):
Yeah, I think this is really important to drive home
and this is like at the core ofmy message, right Of like it's
really how we feel.
Like we have been soconditioned in society to say
like, oh, someone's successfulor I'm successful, and it is a
dollar amount in your bankaccount or what your revenue or
profit is in your business, andyou're miserable and there is no

(52:58):
amount of money that is evergoing to bring you that feeling.
And so, like what Andy issaying without saying, it is
like how do you actually want todefine your success?
Right?
Like success for me is like alife well lived.
Right, like having fun alongthe way as I create more and
give back, and you know, it'sjust like all areas of your life
feel like fulfilled and andthat's not to say I don't have

(53:20):
bad days and you know all ofthat Right, but it's just like
on a on a baseline, daily basis,like do I love waking up in the
morning?
Do I love putting my head on mypillow at the end of the night
and being like that was so funtoday?
Right, and I think that for alot, of, a lot of us I know I
was in this boat that that isn'tnecessarily the case, you know.

(53:42):
And so, really defining foryourself, like, what, what is
success look like for you?
What is you know?
Like so many people, you knowit's like, oh, I have successful
business, but your marriage isshit.
It's like, is that reallysuccess?
Is that success that yourchildren don't know who you are,
because you've spent all ofyour time building your business
, which is great, I understandthat.
And also, like, where is thatwhat you, what you want to, to

(54:06):
kind of life do you want to live?
And so, yeah, I think, I thinkthat I'm putting my beliefs on
the CPAs and the accountants,but I really were the or the
financial advisors.
But I really think, like it'sone thing you know, it's almost
like you know, when you go andyou take a business course from
a professor, versus taking abusiness course from an
entrepreneur that just happensto teach the business course,

(54:29):
you know it's like you are aliving, breathing thing.
That is practicing what youpreach, right, like that's,
that's why we save, that's whywe invest, that's why we do all
of the things we do is like tohave the life that we want.
I do want to go back real quickbecause I think this is
important because this appliesto insurance agents too, and
this is something that I learned, you know, through financial
planning.
But like, there is captive andnon-captive and I don't think a

(54:51):
lot of people know about like.
Like what, what did that?
What does that mean from aninsurance standpoint?
Or like a um funds, investmentfunds, things of that sort.
If you want to share, sharewith people about that.

Andy Moran (55:03):
Sure, I you might know you probably know a lot
more about this than I do, soI'll I'll just share, like what,
what I think I know, which maynot actually be the most
accurate Cause I haven't been inthis space a whole lot, but, um
, at least as far as Iunderstand it, the idea is that
you know the captive agents.
They're kind of there to onlysell one family of product under
a certain like, basically, likethey're only, they can only

(55:24):
sell the products that you know.
The people that are supportingthem to sell want them to sell.
Yep, versus maybe someone whohas more latitude to employ like
a broad.
They're not beholden to anyparticular like family of
products.

Erin Gray (55:38):
Yeah, yeah, is that?
Is that?
Is that correct?
That's perfect.
Yeah, I think that that'sreally like.
I mean, it's just, if you go toyour local agent, sometimes they
might only be able to sell acouple of insurance product like
, yeah, insurance.
Like, when I say insuranceproducts, what I mean is
companies, brands of insurance,right, or same thing, like with
you know you're talking aboutindex funds, so that's not a

(55:59):
captive thing, right, but like,just if you are choosing
different types of funds, justbeing aware of, like, if they're
not suggesting index funds andthey are suggesting other brands
of mutual funds or things ofthat sort, is it coming from a
place of like, these are all ofyour options, or is it coming
from these are your options, youknow?
So, just being aware of whatthat is.

(56:20):
And and, yeah, if you hear wego back to like it's just
knowledge, right, like a lot ofpeople think like, oh, this is
what my advisor, this is whatyou know, my insurance
recommended insurance agentrecommended, but it's like, do
you, do you know that there'slots of other things that you
can to do or invest in?

Andy Moran (56:40):
there's lots of other things that you can to do
or invest in.
Absolutely I, uh, so my myundergrad before I studied
computer science, before I kindof got into personal finance
side was my undergrad, waseconomics, and I feel, of all
the things I learned ineconomics, the only I yeah,
there's a lot of just a lot ofmacros, a lot of like philosophy
and psychology actually mixedin with it, because it's like
how do you understand humanbehavior at scale?
But one of the things thatreally struck with me is just

(57:02):
the extent to which incentiveshave the potential to shape
outcomes and and.
And that doesn't mean that, ifyou know, someone has
commissioned products, because,like you know, there's the case
where sometimes it's easier forpeople to get if they have their
advisor that can, you know,write that life insurance policy
for them that they need.
Yeah, you know, it's likethere's definitely an argument
to be made that that's a thatcan be a better end service to

(57:24):
the client at times.
So it's, yeah, but it's, youknow, kind of just important to
know what, what the incentivesare, so that, yeah, you can kind
of then make the decisionthat's the most appropriate for
sure yeah, yeah.

Erin Gray (57:35):
Do you have anything else that you want to add, or uh
, share?

Andy Moran (57:39):
well when you mentioned about defining success
.
It's interesting because I hadthought about that recently like
I was thinking about well, whatwould it like?
What?
What does my life look like?
When I say that if I'm gonnalike how do I define success for
myself?
And I I kind of made it, youknow, like a bullet for him.
I was like, hey, can I spendwinter somewhere warm?

(58:01):
For me it's like, can I not feelrushed in the morning?
I like having two or threehours before working, because I
think modern life is verystimulated and very so.
I think having some time in themorning is just really
important to me, which is hardto accommodate in a nine to five
without getting up at like 5am,which is also not a thing that
I left the idea, frankly.
You know, when my incomeexceeds my expenses, I don't

(58:25):
necessarily need to.
You know I don't have like agigantic number I need to
achieve, but like, am I cashflow positive here?
Can I take frequent vacations,like, for example?
Like maybe like every quarter?
You know, am I working onprojects that excite me and
allow me to do good work?
You know, do I have happypeople in my life?
Can I dress as I please?

(58:45):
Can I say no to new business?
You know?

Erin Gray (58:48):
can I host like a?

Andy Moran (58:49):
social gathering every month and, like, can I
give back give to people without, like, without really any kind
of second thought to it?
Yep, and those are kind of thecriteria for me.
But getting clear on what thatis for you, um, and it's a
journey and it evolves over time, no doubt.
But, um, getting more clear onthose things is, you know, it's

(59:10):
the numbers.
It kind of focusing on thenumbers first and then having
that it doesn't like lead tosuccess, but like, if really
focusing on what is you want outof life, yeah, um, then once
you kind of have that vision,it's easier to kind of have the
supporting resources work toachieve that.

Erin Gray (59:25):
Yeah, it's like creating it's.
It's the back ass words waywe've been taught, right.
It's like it's actuallycreating what you want, like
knowing what you want and thencreating it from that space.
And I will say, like Aaron,four years ago, when you asked
her, like what do you want?
I knew what I didn't want.
Right, that's what I knew andfor some of us that's actually
where we have to it.
Might you know where we start?

(59:45):
Because we have that polarity,we have that contrast.
I exactly what you're saying.
I knew I was tired of workingall of the time.
I knew that.
You know, like you're sayinggetting up and that feeling of
rushing.
It's funny you say that Cause Iwas sitting just watching the
birds and the squirrels thismorning and I'm just like gosh,
how far have I come, you know towhere?

(01:00:05):
Like no phone, no phone calls,no, nothing.
Like it's nine o'clock in themorning and I'm just like
hanging with my kid on the couchand we're watching the
squirrels.
You know, like it seems so,like also to Aaron probably four
years ago would have been likethat, that, like that, but like
that is everything.
Because how to like thatfeeling?
That I feel, is not a it's ofcalm and peace, right, Versus

(01:00:28):
pressure and rush, and I thinkso many of us have just accepted
.
I think accepted and toleratedthat might be a good word for
like rushing and like you don'thave to live your life like that
, like really getting clear andand a little bit at a time,
right, Like maybe it is whereyou get to sleep, in you know, a
little bit more, or you, youknow, do take a little bit of a

(01:00:51):
slower route to work, orwhatever it is for you, that's
just a little bit of, a littlebit outside your comfort zone.
For you, because I think itdoes feel a little uncomfortable
when we're, you know, changingfrom our old way like you said,
pain points, you know, like fromour old way of being.
It does feel uncomfortable,right, Like if you're used to
having chaos and stress all ofthe time, your body is going to

(01:01:12):
send you signals.
When you're not in stress andchaos, right, it's going to want
you to return back, becausethat's what it's known and
that's what it's used to.
Versus what do I want my life tolook like?
How do I actually like startingwith opposite of money?
How do I want to feel, you know, on a day in and day out basis.
Yeah, I think that's brilliant,because that's that's really

(01:01:34):
what we're going for, you know,and and then the money just
happens as a byproduct, versusthe money being the pillar and
then trying to make everythingelse go around it.

Andy Moran (01:01:43):
I think too, sometimes we we get in these
cycles where, like you say, likewe, we get to the point where
we know that what we don't want,we realize it in negative way.
We don't want x, I almost think, and sometimes it's even hard
to know what the why is untilyou've given yourself space.
So part of what I feel like Ireally want to do is to

(01:02:05):
normalize the conversations wehave around the idea of career
breaks, because I feel like Iused to market myself as the
tech sabbatical planner and thatwas kind of the language I used
and I still will talk aboutsabbaticals.
I'm not anti-sabbatical here,that's definitely not my intent,
but I almost feel like thatwe're so afraid of saying the
word break that we have to wrapit up in language because we

(01:02:28):
can't even allow ourselves toconsider that like sometimes you
just need a break, like, yeah,human, human, real talk here.
Like um, like I knew for me,like I knew I wanted to do some
traveling, like I knew I.
So I knew there were somethings.
I knew I didn't want to juststay in the bay area although
ironically I may end up movingthere next month but that's kind
of a whole different seguethere, but it'll be different

(01:02:50):
this time, um, but.
But sometimes you don't evenknow, like, until you have that
space, like I never I wasn, Iwasn't, I never envisioned I was
going to switch to financialplanning and like, literally
these things just unfolded OnceI gave myself the space.
New opportunities emerge and Ieven find that still ongoing.
Right, I, you know, launched myfirm last year and you know you

(01:03:13):
start different things just byputting yourself out there, by
having the space for it.
Things emerge that youconsciously didn't necessarily
plan.
I've been getting potentialoffers around FinTech consulting
because I can help peoplenavigate, I could write code and
do software engineering, butI'm also a personal finance
expert as well and I feel thoseskill sets are usually not in

(01:03:37):
the same person as well.
Like I, kind of, and I feelthose skill sets are usually not
in the same person.
So I've been finding myselfgetting you know, finding the
interesting crossroads there,potentially attracting those
opportunities as well, and thatwas not you know a thing.
You plan like my interest andeverything totally changed too
for my own career break, like,um, I was not a big nature
outdoorsy person at all, butlike my original travel plans is

(01:03:58):
like you know, I was going togo to cities and go to like
concerts and events and do thecheck out the next city that I
wanted to live in.
But, like the course of kind ofdoing van, like a lot of nomadic
van life and doing a lot oflike wild camping, all in these
like giant open spaces,especially in like kind of
between the sierras and therockies, I I really like fell in
love with, like these wide openspaces and nature and astronomy

(01:04:21):
of like now do likeastrophotography and like all
these hobbies that I didn't evenlike do before or consider like
they weren't part of how Iviewed myself.
And sometimes you don't likeeven it's hard to you know we
don't always give ourselvesspace to be who we are, cause,
like modern society imposesthese demands on us.
But, like I think sometimes wejust need a break to even know

(01:04:42):
what the next step is.
And it's scary though, becauseyou take a break and you don't
always know what the plan is.
And maybe you, maybe you builda buffer, you know, maybe you
have like a fund that's likeokay, this is my replacement
income money.
Maybe you, maybe you build likean account that's like a
transition fund into the world.
Right, like some buffer, maybeyou do all these things.

(01:05:05):
But even then, like you know,there is it's definitely like an
element of when you take a leaplike that.
There is an element of like youdon't always know how it's
going to turn out.
But you know, there's sometimeswhere it's like we can get
ourselves so attached to comfortyeah that it's almost like more
uncomfortable staying in thesecomfortable positions and in

(01:05:26):
leading us down a directionthat's not like being true to
ourselves.
Even if we don't consciouslyknow it, like we may not be
consciously aware, there mightbe like a part of us that's
yearning, you know, to haveexperiences that we don't even
know that we're going to have.
Yet, like I, so many things, II have so many stories.
Last few years I didn't evenreally talk about travel or
adventure too much, or any ofthat.

Erin Gray (01:05:44):
We might have a part two for that.

So many stories that just you know it's and like
none of like, like none of thatwas was stuff I predicted,
anticipated, planned, um, andsometimes, sometimes you just
need to give yourself space tofeel those things and experience
them.

Erin Gray (01:05:57):
I love that you said that, because that is such a
huge thing.
Like we don't allow ourselvestime Right and we're so scared
because we're so I don't know ifI had major deja vu for a hot
second when you said you knowwe're addicted to the comfort
Cause I was just was I tellingyou that or someone else that I
was talking about Like almostthe money that we make we get
into this comfort of, like wedon't want to leave that, that

(01:06:18):
little, you know little comfortlifestyle that we have.
And I don't know anybody thathas left the comfort and has
wished they would go back to howit was right, like it doesn't
look anything like what theythought it would and everything
like what they wanted to feel.
And you know just that.

(01:06:39):
That that, like you said thatgiving yourself that space same
thing like with you with travel.
Like I thought I wanted travelto look a certain way and then
the more that I traveled, I'mlike I don't want to be anywhere
near.
I mean I love all the humansand I don't want to be in a you
know a city, like I want to beall about the animals and the
nature and like the vastness,like very intentional with how

(01:07:02):
we travel now, and so thatcouldn't have happened if I one
never gave myself theopportunity to take time off and
to actually went and did somethings and then realize that's
not really what I'm looking forand then being able to be
flexible, to change, like how dowe want to travel, but the

(01:07:23):
space part is huge.
Like we don't even give.
Like even you think aboutmeetings.
How many of us jam pack everysingle second of our day Like
here's?
You know what Andy and I aretalking about.
The goal ultimately right, if,if you want, is to take some
time off from work, but like youcan start small right now of
like looking at your calendar tosee, like is do I even have

(01:07:45):
time to like go sit out in thesun and enjoy my iced tea for 20
minutes between one meeting andthe next?
Like am I even allowing myselfa bathroom break?
Like I can't tell you how manypeople I talk to.
They're like, yeah, I don't.
You know, go into the bathroom.
I'm just like our sweet bodies.
You know, like what we're doingof just this constant, we're

(01:08:06):
under this stress, pressurecooker, versus, like you say,
and and being bored, right, likewe don't value being bored,
right?
We are in a society where, Imean, how many times you go out
to eat and people are eatingtogether and they're scrolling
on whatever platform they're on,right Versus, it's okay to look
out the window and just watchwhatever happens, you know,

(01:08:28):
because, and I think that goesback to like, do we like being
with ourselves, right, like, dowe like?
Do we like our own company?
Do we enjoy who we are?
No-transcript.

I love that.

Erin Gray (01:08:56):
No, absolutely yeah.
So where can people find youand if they want to reach out to
you, connect with you, all ofthe things?

Sure.
So I kind of maintain a linktree kind of site at andymoranio
A-N-D-Y-M-O-R-A-Nio and that'llkind of have links to my firm
and kind of be posting kind ofthings here and there like
promos and freebies.
Kind of got some things in thework for this year so I'm
excited for it.

Erin Gray (01:09:20):
Okay, where do you put all of the things that you
like travel, like all yourpictures and things of that sort
, like where does that go?

Oh man, honestly I don't.
I feel like I don't post enough.
It's mostly on my Instagramstories, so it's not super
branded, like, it's mostly justmy personal instagram.
But like, feel free, if youguys, if people are interested,
they can stalk me there.
And yeah, I'm, I don't do a lotof.
I feel like I do more stuff inthe story form.
It's a little more ephemeral,it's kind of fun, so you can't
always.
You know, that's kind of whereI am the most active at posting

(01:09:49):
travel stuff.
I mean, every so often I'll doa linkedin where I or, like
recently, I did a blog aboutlike how much it costs me to
spend like a month in Cancun.
Currently I'm doing thisinterview from a Puerto Vallarta
right now for another month,you know, practicing what.

Erin Gray (01:10:03):
I preach here.
I'm like Andy was surfingyesterday.

I'm like yeah, definitely the highest and the
lowest, but yeah, no, it's beena fun ride and I am looking
forward to continuing surfingthe wave.

Erin Gray (01:10:15):
Ah, perfect, okay.
Thank you, andy, for all yourtime and your knowledge.
I appreciate it.

Oh, thank you so much, Aaron.

Erin Gray (01:10:22):
Thank you for tuning in today.
I appreciate you spending yourtime with me.
I created grow the CEO cohortfor the entrepreneur that wants
to be in a community with otherheart-based entrepreneurs.
It's a place where we blend the3d of money like understanding
your bookkeeping and taxes andinvesting and how it applies to
your business along with the 5Dof money the energetics and the

(01:10:44):
emotions that you feel withmoney.
To learn more about Grow theCEO cohort, you can head over to
my website atgeneratealifewelllivedcom.
And, as always, from my soul toyours,

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Ep. 45 Redefining Success: Crafting a Life of Financial Freedom and Personal Growth (with special guest Andy Moran)

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