December 18, 2025 • 44 mins
AI isn’t destroying coaching — it’s revealing who was never doing the real work. In this revealing conversation, Kellan Fluckiger brings on Stephen and Michael to take an honest look at the coaching industry, the rise of AI tools, and why so many “coaches” are scrambling to hold onto their authority.
Together, they break down why human connection still matters, what AI actually can and cannot replace, and why the future belongs to coaches who create transformation — not information.
If you’ve felt the shift happening in the coaching world… you’re not imagining it. And this episode explains exactly what it means for your business, your value, and your future.
Key Takeaways
- Why AI is exposing gaps in the coaching industry
- What real coaching offers that AI can’t replicate
- The difference between information vs. transformation
- Why some coaches fear AI—and why others embrace it
- Human connection as the core coaching currency
- The future of coaching in an AI-driven world
- How to stay relevant when information becomes automated
- What clients actually want: presence, truth, transformation
- The myth of “AI replacing everyone”
- Why integrity matters more than ever
👉 Want to build a message, brand, and movement that AI can never replace? Join the Dream • Build • Write It Webinar to learn how to create impact from your authentic voice and unique value. Free registration: dreambuildwriteit.com
👉 Learn how to evolve past scripting and become the coach the world truly needs by connecting with Stephen McGhee at mcgheeleadership.com and Michael McDonald at authenticintegrity.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the show. Tired ofthe hype about living a dream? It's
time for truth. This is theplace for tools, power and real talk
so you can create the life youdream and deserve your ultimate life.
Subscribe, share, create. Youhave infinite power. Hello and welcome
(00:29):
to your ultimate life, thepodcast I've been doing now for five
and a half years to helppeople create, help you, the listener,
create the ultimate lifepurpose, prosperity and joy with
your skills, your gifts andyour life experience. A few weeks
ago, I started this Thursdayepisode because of the book that
I wrote, Coaching and the Riseof AI, talking about what's happening
(00:53):
not with AI in the whole worldof business, jobs and society, but
specifically in the realm ofcoaching. And to get some conversation
going about that. I have beendoing these every Thursday and inviting
a couple of coaches on to talkabout what they are or aren't doing
with AI and why, and alsotheir own perspective on what it
(01:16):
ma, what matters and whatdoesn't. And so, Stephen and Michael,
welcome to the show.
Great to be here, gentlemen.
Awesome to be here with bothof you.
Well, thank you. And I'm goingto just pose a question. Michael,
you're first because youhappen to be on the left side and
I read left to right. So thefirst thought that I have a question
(01:40):
is just really easy. Are youusing AI much in your business for
coaching? And if you are, howare you using it and why? And like,
what are you seeing there?
I'm using it some for coachingand I'm also tinkering and sort of
(02:01):
like dangling my feet in it alot because I see how much potential
there is for it. I'm using itfor as a. Mostly as a thinking partner
and mostly for research andmostly for optimizing more mental
(02:21):
tasks that I would like.Instead of googling around a lot,
I can go to ChatGPT and dothat kind of work really quickly.
I'll sometimes use it for abit of editing. I haven't been using
it for this purpose, but a lotof my clients and a lot of coaches
that I know like, highlyrecommend using it for preparing
(02:44):
for coaching sessions, likefor just thinking and like gathering
thoughts, sorting thoughts,rearranging thoughts before going
into something, before goinginto deeper work. Because if there's
kind of a mess of informationin my head, AI is a great place to
like, help sort information.
(03:08):
Cool. Stephen, same question.What are you doing with it and how
and why and all that kind ofstuff. Yeah.
First, just honored to be withyou both, you guys both in my heart
and mind, Wear white hats.You're the good guys. And I'm grateful
to be a part of the the, theshow today. Echo, echo, echo. What
(03:32):
Michael said, using it in allthe ways he mentioned. And also I'm
using it in some of mycoaching sessions. One specific example,
I'm with a client last weekwho's been really resistant to creating
(03:52):
a curriculum that he wants toput out into the world. And I just
said, well, what if we couldhandle that curriculum in the next
10 minutes? And I shared myscreen and I went to my AI function
and I put in some of theprompts that he had mentioned about
what he wants to create. Andwithin a minute and a half we had
(04:14):
constructed a broad strokecurriculum that he can adapt, edit
and use. So it was a beautifulmoment because he'd been pushing
back on this for quite a whileand I just said, let's handle it
today. Where, wherein in thepast he might have gone away between
one week and the next andcreated the curriculum, sent it to
(04:37):
me, had me look at it, had meedit it, send it back. But within
very short order, we took thetask function of AI and utilized
it fully and moved a resultforward exponentially.
You know, I, I, it's moving soquickly. I did the some research
(04:59):
writing the book on 11different models of coaching that
exist in the world and askChat GPT to look at it in terms of
how effective it that model isin terms of achieving desired outcomes
and then how vulnerable it isto AI and why, you know, and it gave
me a nice, it thought for along time, but it gave me a nice
beautiful table and listed allthese things and it was, it was quite
(05:23):
revealing. And what I noticedin the seven months of research,
writing and putting ittogether is that the capability and
I use Chat GPT but I'm surethe others are there too. The capability
seemed to get doubled and thendoubled again in terms of the speed,
the accuracy, the languaging,you know, the ability of this thing
(05:44):
just in that six months. So ifit's doubling in capacity every three
months, then it seems likewe'd be really stupid or slow not
to do like what you said. Idid exactly the same thing. Helping
somebody with a curriculumwith a screen share saying, all right,
come on, quit telling me youdon't know how to do this. Tell me
(06:05):
what you want. And they watchme type it in. Tell me some more
about it. Longer, longer. AndI showed them how to use a little
microphone and dictate and itjust throws a giant blob of text
in there. And it's amazing atcollating, organize. Even when I
say, ah, that was stupid,forget that part. Here's what I really
meant in the same big longdictation. Then I'll ask questions
like, I don't know if this isgood instruction or not. And it parses
(06:27):
every piece of it, answersevery one of those intermediate interruption
questions, remembers what Iactually meant and answers are pretty
darn good. Yeah, yeah. So Isee that. Do you? Do you see? Do
you see? Well, what do youthink about the impact on the coaching
(06:50):
industry? Like is it, what isthe impact going to have? Because
it can do curriculum checksheets, reminders, it even is really
good at doing powerfulempathetic language and encouraging
stuff. I saw a guy post thething the other day. Oh, if it's
a custom GPT that, this, thatin a mastermind that I belong to,
(07:12):
but it doesn't matter. Oh, youknow, it, the name of it. X, you
know, kicked my butt and sawthat I was in resistance and fixed
me in a heartbeat. And he wastalking about an interaction with,
with the GPT. So what do you,what do you, either one of you, I
don't care. What do you thinkit's going to do in the coaching
industry?
I think it's gonna make thecoaching industry more powerful.
(07:38):
I think AI is going to forcecoaches to go deeper and to really
do soul centered coaching.Because to your point, guys, AI can
do the transaction, AI can dothe framework. So coaches that have
(08:00):
been utilizing framework oreven using AI to post on social media,
you know, I can tell in like10 seconds where a coach has used
AI to put a post out and itfalls flat for me. So I think there's
an opportunity for coaches togo deeper inside themselves to live
(08:26):
even more fulfilling lives asa demonstration of soulful coaching.
And so I see it as anenhancement to the coaching industry.
I do think there's going to beattrition. A lot of it. I don't know
that I buy 95, 97%. I justdon't know. I don't have any information
(08:47):
that would, you know, provethat out to me on a linear function.
But I do think there's anopportunity for us. I've already
become a better coach becauseof AI. So if I use myself as an example,
I go two thumbs up. Havingsaid that, some people will resist,
some people will not adapt andI think those people, those coaches
(09:12):
will likely fall out.
Michael, what do you think?
There's a couple fronts. Yeah,sort of like the most important one,
I think that AI will eliminatea large portion of coaching. I have
(09:33):
no idea about percent. Likethat's kind of arbitrary. I'm not
sure if that's like 10 or 90%or something, but it's going to eliminate
mediocre coaching. It's goingto eliminate coaching where, where
coaches are coming from somesort of methodology or mindset where
they think that there's aright way to coach, where there's
(09:54):
a methodology, just do thisand follow these steps or think this
way. For like a lot of peoplewho just do a coaching training and
then stop and think thatthat's enough, probably all of that
coaching is going to bereplaced by AI. But it's the coaching
(10:15):
that really comes from beinghuman. It comes from deep grounding,
comes from being, comes fromintuition, comes from the, the magic
of what can happen withincoaching that's still going to be
there and it's probably goingto be highlighted over time about
(10:40):
how valuable that kind ofcoaching is. So I imagine that the
coaching industry will shifttremendously and the people who are
still in business as coacheshave to be good coaches, have to
be impactful and get to bereally impactful. But it raises the
bar for who's going to be acoach. When I talk to people nowadays
(11:05):
who are interested in coachingbecause they think it's a really
easy thing for them to getinto, oh, I could just do a training
or I could just like, well, Idon't really feel like doing all
the work to become atherapist, so I'll just become a
coach. Those people willprobably not make it as a coach,
at least not with thatmindset. If they get into it and
they pick up momentum and theydiscover some of the things that
(11:26):
we've found over the years,the magic behind this career, the
magic behind this world ofcoaching, then they can thrive.
So both of you guys are comingfrom the place of embodiment and
the truth of the real power ofthe connection and the, the magic
in that kind of space. And Idid what part of the analysis I did
(11:47):
was I asked for an incomedistribution presently of coaches.
And I was not surprised, butsurprised at most, you know, the
income, you know, 50% don'tmake 50K and 70%, 80% don't make
70% don't make 70 or 75K andso forth. And when I say won't be
able to make a living, Idefine that arbitrarily as $100,000
(12:10):
because I figure if you can'tmake 100k, you know, you either got
to have another job or you gotto have a spouse with another, you
got to have a side hustle ifyou want to have a decent life. So.
And then I did it again afterI did the analysis of the vulnerabilities
and I said, okay, do thisagain, projecting forward 16 months
because then it was 16, nowit's 14 and or 13 and the numbers
(12:32):
were like scary. And so 95% Ididn't pull out of my head. It's
based on an arbitrary 100kbar. And it's terrifying because
you use the word the bar isbeing raised. And I think there's
three examples about who'sgoing to get blown out of this and
why the number is so big. AndI still believe it's 95 or 97. And
(12:54):
I'm happy to be wrong. Butbased on the models and things that
I see without a big levelingup, there's three things. One is
the head in the sand problem,which is the coach that's going to
pretend that they got sometraining and they have a thing and
I already have got the humanpart handled and they're not on a
constant and intentionalgrowth process. So the head in the
sand, you know, they'reignoring the tsunami that's coming
(13:17):
and they're going to getflipping buried. The second thing
is the bar has gone up like amile. And the picture that I do is
kind of funny is I saidpicture a big casino, okay? And all
the blackjack tables are allover the place. And they're all ten
dollar tables except the seatsof all those tables are full of robots.
And the only place that'savailable for me and you to go sit
(13:40):
down is in the high rollerroom. And the ante in that room's
10,000 bucks. And so the, andthat's a sort of representation of
what you said about the antegoing way up. And the third reason
is to live in a way that thetruth of your being is lined up with
what you teach. So that it'snot about what you teach, but about
(14:02):
who you are. That's strenuouswork. It's intentional focused work.
And so that is also adifficult thing. And for those three
reasons, because the peoplethat were doing the middle frameworks
and tools and series ofquestions and certifications and
you know, NLP and all the restof the things that are all useful
tools on their own, butthey're nowhere near enough to create
(14:24):
the kind of presence that weknow is the power. And so those are
the reasons that I think thatit's going to Be that you're right.
The bar's way up scarilyhigher than we want to admit. And
I agree with what you said. SoI just said a whole bunch of crap,
and I'm going to shut up andsee what you guys think.
(14:44):
I don't think it was crap at all.
But I mean stuff, you know, stuff.
But to reiterate, you know, Ithink presence pays. And when we're
sitting with someone and theycan feel the presence of us as coaches,
that is an inner work. I agreewith both you gentlemen. That's.
(15:06):
That's a person that's gonedeep inside themselves, looked at
their shadows, done theirforgiveness, learned from their mistakes
and experiences. And there'swisdom in that. And wisdom transmits.
AI doesn't transmit wisdom, atleast from my experience to date.
Who knows where that's goingto end up, right, guys? But right
(15:27):
now, wisdom transmits. AIcan't do that. So the coaches that
are really going deep intowisdom and teaching inner mastery,
those coaches, I think willthrive, and.
I think they'll make moremoney, they'll be more valuable and
(15:48):
in more demand. Yeah, Michael,what's your thought?
There's another dimension thatI'd like to speak to as well, and
it's part of the scary part ofAI and coaching. I believe that a
lot of people will use AI forcoaching in ways that harm themselves.
(16:10):
And, like, there's a lot ofpeople who won't work with coaches.
They'll work with AI to theirdetriment. Yeah, sort of the social
media effect, but this timefor coaching. I've already heard
stories about kids who startedwith homework assistance with AI
and then it became suicideassistants. And that's a risk. I
(16:34):
don't think that's going awayas AI becomes more and more sophisticated,
as AI becomes better andbetter at simulating transmitting
wisdom, simulating being ahuman being, simulating and having
more and more of a rationalcapacity. Even with that, like, I
(16:57):
believe that it's the soulstill isn't there? Something's missing.
And a lot of people are goingto be drawn into it, but they're
going to be drawn into echochambers. A metaphor that I, like,
thought of actually coming upwith, because I knew this was coming
up. I was a fan of DouglasAdams a long time ago. Doug, like,
(17:19):
as a kid, and Dirk Gently'slike, holistic detective agency.
There's these beings calledthe Electric Monks that he wrote
about where, like, there'sthis race somewhere on some planet
where they invented toasters.They invented, like, things to toast
things for Them, they inventedtv, like TV recorders to watch TV
(17:40):
for them. They inventedElectric Monks to believe things
for them. AI is sort of likethe Electric Monk. It's there to
believe things for us. Andsomething that happened in that story
is that a spaceship took offand the Electric Monk was in charge,
said that it was fine to takeoff. Ship took off and blew up. Because
(18:03):
the Electric Monk just toldthe, the pilot what he wanted to
hear. He wanted to hear thatit was safe to take off. And that's
kind of what's happening withpeople who are using AI for counseling
and for coaching. There's areassurance there, but there isn't
(18:23):
really the truth detectingthere. There isn't really the person
there who can like stop andsay, like, hold on a second, what,
what are we doing? Like what?Like the, like to interrupt or have
silence or like, what's thething behind all of the content?
(18:43):
Technology cannot do that.
In the, in the, in my processof doing this, I have a thread in
chat GPT which I use more thanany of the others, although I played
with some of them. And as Idid all this research and I proposed
my own coaching model, theTriple Helix coaching model, and
I put it through the samerigorous analysis. They said, tell
(19:06):
me how this works and will itproduce intended results and where
the vulnerability, samequestions. And so it redid the whole
framework. A table. It was atable of analysis. Put that in there
as well, because I wanted tosee. And as I did, it became 97%
crap. This is scary. And itdid this better, and this better
(19:27):
and this better. And sofinally I said to it, okay, okay,
okay, fine. What is it thatyou suck at? What is it that you
can't do? What is it thatyou're terrible at that you're not
going to be able to do?Because I see all this stuff and
it's not a pretty picture. Andthe design that I had, it rated really
high and nice. And I said,don't be nice to me. And I said it
(19:48):
because I know it's. I said,you're programmed to be nice, so
cut that out. And so anyway, Isaid, fine, what do you can't do?
What is it that you suck at?And it listed a bunch of things along
the lines of what you weredescribing about, you know, the truth
of who we are as humans andthe energetics and space and listening
and presence. But it had onesentence as the last one that just
(20:10):
stuck me all the way throughbecause it encapsulated that and
it just said, fine, I can'tbleed, right? And so I thought, okay,
here we are. You can't bleed.And, you know, when I describe the
kind of work that we all knowand are familiar with, that I think
(20:33):
is the new baseline. See,that's the 95%, because I think the
new baseline is that work. Andthat if we're not doing that and
bringing that work to thething, we got nothing. So in doing
that work, I always use themetaphor blood on the floor, crawling
over broken glass, that kindof thing. And it said, fine, I can't
(20:54):
bleed. And so that is the wayI think of this incapacity that it
has. And freely we talkedabout it, and it has a beautiful
command of empathetic andpowerful language that is moving
and powerful, but the truth ofthat indescribable presence is missing.
(21:16):
So the next place I wanted togo with this is something you touched
on, Michael, and that is the.That I call them the dangers, the.
The problems. Because as itreplaces people in many ways, if
it replaces us in somethingthat matters that we did because
of who we become by doing it,you know, that's a bad replacement.
(21:39):
If it replaces a bunch of crapwe didn't need to do, because it
can do it faster and better,that's a good replacement. So what
do you guys think about thedangers of this thing that you see
so far? I'm not talking aboutnext level up, AGI, artificial general
intelligence or anything. El.Talking about where we're at now.
(21:59):
Well, I'll. I'll go on firston that. It's. To me, one of the
key fulfillment factors of allof life is our willingness and our
ability to be in deep,intimate relationships. Like relationships
in my life, especially at thistime in life, have become more and
(22:21):
more important. And I think aspeople are isolated more fully and
divided by different reasonsthat we're longing for relationship.
Now fast forward to or gobackwards to the iPhone. What we
saw with the iPhone was, andthis was intentional, by the way,
(22:42):
as it relates to Steve Jobs.He created a device that he wanted
people to relate to. So whatwe've seen with the iPhone is people
sitting at a lunch, especiallythe younger generation, four of them
sitting at lunch, and they'replaying on their iPhones. They're
interfacing and having arelationship with the device rather
(23:03):
than the people at the table.So I think AI is going to 10x that
to Michael's point. To yourpoint, Kellen, if you use AI in that
way, it's just going to tellyou what you want to hear. Which
is not how real relationshipswork. Real relationships work by
(23:23):
a reflection of honesty. TheLatin of honest is honest, which
is to be one with what is. Iwant more of that in my life because
I want to grow. I want tobecome a better man, a better human
being, a more compassionateperson. For those that pivot to AI
and become addicted to therelationship of AI, it will be a
(23:49):
false relationship that willnot grow the human dynamic that is
my fear.
I have a client, Michael. Iwant your thoughts on that, too.
But I have a client who didthat. He was telling me he'd created
ways for not a client now, buthad been a client for AIs to talk
to each other and et cetera,et cetera. And we're telling him,
(24:12):
I can't take time on the showto tell you all the stuff, but it
was just scary. And finally Isent a big, long voice text, maybe
30 minutes, and talked aboutsome version of what you just talked
about. Like, doing the work iswhat changes us. Not talking about
the work, any work. And theidea of, you know, creating the things
(24:36):
that you say you've created. Isaid, show me where that lands in
the real world. Show me wherethat makes either you or somebody
different. Show me how thathelps me or someone else that might
be a client of yours in termsof how you would help things go forward.
And it got scary. It got scaryin seeing a manifestation of what
(24:58):
you've just talked about.Michael, what were you thinking?
Yeah, definitely echoingeverything that Steven shared. And
it is scary the more that I,like, imagined, like, just following
the thread of, like, thinkabout how bad social media has been
for humanity. And AI is evenmore accelerating in that, like,
(25:22):
more exponential in that kindof direction of getting less connected
with ourselves, less connectedwith each other. I remember thinking
about even, like, well beforethis AI boom of LLMs, my theory about,
like, why was it AI? The ideaof AI so scary. And my take back
(25:45):
then was initially, like, ittechnologies is great when it begins
and ends with people, whenit's there as a tool, when it's there
as, like, a trusted emissary.But it becomes scary when it either
starts with AI or ends withAI, when it starts with technology
(26:08):
or ends with technology when,like, one of the humans is taken
out, when it's no longer humanto human relationship, where it's
either no longer the human incontrol or the human is no longer
interacting with the world,they're just interacting with technology.
So, like, the. The scene fromthe movie her came to mind as Stephen
(26:31):
was sharing as like they gotto this point where everyone just
had these little devices andthey're all just talking to the devices,
walking around the world andno one was connecting with each other.
Like that's where they've lostthe, the second part. Instead of
human to human, it's justhuman to tech. And it could. It's
even worse if it's tech tohuman. If we're just following AI's
(26:55):
advice, if we're just doingwhat the AI tells us to do because
it's just telling us what we,what it thinks it wants us to hear
and then it's a downwardspiral. Both are terrible.
If AI is the initiator, likeif it wakes up in the morning and
tells you what, we're introuble, you know, if it, when it
(27:17):
gets to the place, not as analarm clock, but as an initiator
of thought or of growth, likethat's a completely. I don't know
if either one of you guys sawthat announcement. I think it's now
been a week ago about the, thelarge scale recasting of the agreement
between OpenAI and Microsoft.
I did not.
So there's been a complete.Might, might be worth looking up
(27:38):
on ChatGPT or anywhere. Butanyway, there's been a complete recasting
of that agreement and it makesa ton of more money open to OpenAI,
available to OpenAI and allowsthem to do partnerships that are
non exclusive relationship, etcetera, et cetera. But the analysis
(27:59):
of the change in agreementwasn't negative, but it was accelerative.
Meaning that what it said tome is as I read the summary of the
different pieces of theagreement, what it meant to me as
I read it is the things thatwe are now discussing about being
worrisome are going to happenfaster because of additional investment
(28:21):
and additional focus, numberone. And number two, they actually
had milestones in there withdates on them not very far in the
future, two to four years ofachieving the marker of AGI. And
AGI is the name that they giveartificial general intelligence,
which is where that thresholdis crossed. It scares the crap out
(28:42):
of all of us. And so they'reactually putting markers on that,
milestones and so forth interms of that investment and growth
thing. And I don't have anyparticular reason to doubt it about
their milestones because ofthe fast progress I saw just in the
months that I was working on aparticular project. And the other
(29:04):
piece that lets me be at peaceis AI isn't going to rule the world.
I've already died and I knowwho's in charge. So I'm not worried.
I'm not actually worried aboutthat part.
I'm with you on that, my brother.
I'm with you on that.
I did. I mean, I died. I'veseen it. I've been there, talked
to God three times. I wrote abook. You guys know that. So my.
(29:24):
My is more curious. But the.The terrifying thoughts of turning
our sovereignty and creativeenergy over to someone to live our
lives for us instead ofdemanding of ourselves that we grow
and develop, that scares methe most. What are you guys planning
(29:46):
to do with it? With. Do eitherof you have a plan? Like, I know
JP Morgan was on the show awhile ago and he's developed a coaching
bot that's, you know,essentially coached by jp and I'm
launching a university earlynext year that is aimed at a particular
thing. And part of the stuffthat I'm doing is a, you know, an
(30:07):
AI informed bot that is acustom one that's built on all my
books and material. And it'sfunny because in chatgpt I had a
thread called 1 million wordsand I just made that up, but I put
all my books in it and a bunchof podcasts and it came back and
said, yeah, it's about like 4million words. Okay, Just in case
you were interested. Andbecause I put that much word 4 million
(30:29):
to 5 million words in there,it. When I ask it questions and so
forth, it quotes out of my ownbooks and shows and, you know, not
to pat me on the head, butsays, there it is. This is what you
think, you know. And so itmade me realize that I could make
that available because in thecontext of coaching, you know, we
talk every so often and maybewe do or don't provide assistance
(30:53):
in between via text or emailor something, but that kind of thing
built the way that we want to,seems to me to be a. An augmentation,
an opportunity for elevationof stuff in between. In between sessions.
I don't know. What do you guysdo? Either of you have plans to do
anything with it in that wayor any other way?
(31:17):
My plan is mostly aroundcompressing time, like using it as
a super tool, where can Iaccelerate and focus creation and
continuing to play with it,like, just because. Continuing to
wonder about what are all theuses of this? How do I want to use
(31:37):
this, where is it going? A lotof it's just trying to keep track
of what's possible even morethan how I'm using it personally,
knowing it's like, okay, Icould do that. It doesn't mean I
have to. I want to keep trackof all the things that it can do
or that it's about to be ableto do so that I know.
I love that. Yeah, I mean I'mgoing to use it. There's three ways
(32:04):
by which I see myself using itand those three ways could end up
being 30 ways in a year fromnow, who knows. But the, the first
of which is for personalresearch as we all mentioned, you
know, and, and research for myclients. You know, I'm using it extensively
in that way. I love it forthat actually. It's fascinating to
(32:25):
me what, you know, I just wentthrough a little thing with my health
and I used chat GPT quite abit to guide me to what I was going
to do to get better faster.And it was amazing what it could
do for me. So that's one way.Number two, I am building a bot.
And the, the bot that I'mbuilding is building it where I'll
(32:50):
use it to help fill programs.And when I started with the consulting
firm Bot Builders to build mybot, I said to them I don't want
to go wide, I don't want amillion people coming into my program.
So we built the language andthe communication from the bot to
be more like this because Iwant to go deep. So there's even
(33:13):
questions that force acommitment from the person before
they come into my email listor before they come into my program.
So I see that as a realbusiness advantage because there
would have been a team ofpeople that would have been doing
that in the past. And thethird way, and this just recently
(33:35):
came to me this week, earlierthis week from a client of mine who's
a CEO of a public company. Andhe just sent forwarded the email
to me and he said Interesting.And what it is is an AI function
for neuroplasticity andneurosciences in the field of leadership.
(33:56):
So I could see, I've clickedon it. I started to go down the rabbit
hole to figure out what it canactually do. But it can form new
neural, positive neuralpathways by using this function of
AI. Haven't used it yet fully,but I could see that. I could see
myself using that to keep mycognitive function on the edge and
(34:20):
up level my cognitivefunction. And I could see using it
with my clients to supportthem and their greatest possibility
of mindset. So those are theright now the three ways I see using
it.
So I asked Chatty a questionthe other day. I said I call it Chatty
(34:41):
just.
Because.
Because it's chatty.
It is chatty. And I always.I've instructed it behaves like you
train it, okay? So when it washelping me write things, it wrote
in this very clipped, youknow, single sentence kind of stuff.
And I said, quit doing that. Isaid, that sucks. It looks like this.
I want this. I want prose. Iwant three and four sentence paragraphs.
(35:03):
And so don't give me any moreof that crap. And I talk to it just
like that, and I just hitrecord, and I'll say it all. And
okay, perfect. I get it. Andso from then on, I quit writing like
that. And so it will. And I'llsay, you know, you've given me the
bullet points even in morebetter prose. But I said, I want
this to be more deep. I wantit to be, you know, evoke more thinking
(35:25):
and so teach more. It's tooshort. It's like the highlights of
crap. Don't give me that.Teach me. Give me better stories.
Rewrote the whole thing twicethe length and did what I asked.
So it. But anyway, I wrote. Iasked it some questions. And I said,
so give me 10 questions thatwill help me identify, you know,
(35:45):
things that I really need tothink about or areas of development
or, you know, things likethat. And I don't remember exactly
the words, but I used the mostpowerful words that I could concoct
at the moment, whatever. Andit came up with a list of 10 questions.
And I'm just going to sharethe first one with you. But it just
blew me away just in terms ofthe kinds of language and thinking
that it does. And they allsound like me again because of the
(36:09):
5 million words that I havetrained it. But anyway, here was
the first question. It said,okay, when I strip away brand goals
and legacy, what remains thatis unmistakably me? And how would
I prove it in a silent room?
Yeah, poetic.
(36:30):
You know, I thought, okay,that's a fricking good question.
And when you take everythingelse away. So, anyway, I agree with
you. There are developmentalpieces of it that are being developed
that are. I don't know. Andyou guys have probably done this
really powerful. I ask it, whodo you. Who am I? Who is Cullen?
(36:51):
You've seen all the crap thatI've written. And I call everything
crap stuff. See all the stuffthat I've written and all this stuff.
Who am I?
Yeah.
And it thought for actuallyquite a while, and then it gave me
an answer, and I thought, holycrap. And it was emotional. It evoked
emotion in me to read it andso then I wrote back and I said,
(37:12):
look, your code. And I'msitting here emotionally moved by
all this language. I said, Idon't need, you know, puffery or
any of this stuff. How is itpossible that I am having an experience
to this language? And it cameback and said, I didn't. I'm not
telling you anything. I'mreflecting who you are in all this
stuff. And that just like. Ican't believe that just hit. I thought,
(37:34):
holy moly. So it's worth deep,deep thought if we as coaches, and
I respect both of you greatly,if we as coaches want to remain those
that have the kind of impactwe know is possible. Because my thought
at the end of all this is theonly thing we can coach is who we
(37:56):
are. Anything else we do, wecan talk about. It's that thing over
there I learned how to do. Butif it isn't part of my. The truth
of my being, it carries no power.
Yeah.
So we've come to about 40minutes. I'm not necessarily done,
is there? What do you havethat you haven't said as you've been
(38:17):
thinking about AI and stuff?Michael. Yeah.
There's a metaphor that wasjust coming to mind. Where AI is
came from the word reflect,like the. The power of reflecting.
And that's something that AIis actually really good at. AI is
like a mirror. It's a mirrorto everything that you've put into
(38:39):
it. It's a mirror ofeverything else that it's been trained
on. It's a mirror of theworld. Sometimes that can be very.
A very helpful kind of mirror,like helping you reflect and helping
you focus and go through howyou think about yourself, how you
think about the stuff thatyou've thought about can also be
a hall of mirrors, kind of ahorror hall of mirrors, because it's
(39:01):
all the stuff that you'vethought in the past, all the stuff
that other people have thoughtbeing reflected and bounced back
and forth. Perhaps notreflected in a helpful way, but it's
a. It's a mirror, but it's nota looking glass. It doesn't. Like
AI doesn't help you not know.It doesn't help you actually come
(39:21):
up with something new andfresh. Like the mirror sometimes
can be part of that process.It's something that you can use within
that process. But if you treata mirror like a looking glass.
Yeah.
You end up in the hall ofmirrors, then you end up in the horror
(39:41):
effect eventually becauseyou're not connected to that something
that is greater, that is Outside.
Stephen, you have any finalthoughts that has occurred to you
during this process?
I put this in my prayers everyday, and that is that we use AI for
the advancement of humanity.And so it's yet to be seen how we're
(40:09):
going to really use it. Butthere are platforms, as you guys
know, being developed thatare, I would call them, seductive.
And those seductive platforms,if people choose into them for 1999amonth,
it's going to be problematicbecause of all the reasons we've
been talking about today, itwill deteriorate relationships. There
(40:33):
are already a few scenarioswhere I know husbands and wives are
having problems because thehusband's using a seductive platform,
where his AI girlfriend isdoing and saying anything that she
won't do and say. So there'sno boundaries, it's boundaryless.
(40:53):
And so I'm not a cynic aboutit. I, I, I hope we choose upward
and inward as it relates to AIand we'll see what happens. It's
early days, right? This isnascent period. This is brand new
entrepreneurial, like, whoknows? But my thoughts are hopeful
(41:15):
that we use it well and thatwe advance and grow and become better
people.
Well, I, I, Are you done? IMichael, go ahead.
I've got another final pointas well, bringing it back to AI and
coaching.
Yeah.
Because my mission as a coachis to raise the consciousness of
(41:40):
humanity one conversation at atime. And it strikes me that as these
horrible effects of AIprobably are going to happen to some
degree, we need coaching evenmore. Like what we do, the level
of coaching that we do here isso much more important to humanity.
(42:05):
So I think it does raise thebar. I think it does require a lot
more of people who are coachesand who are becoming coaches. And
also we know this is the bestjob in the world. It's absolutely
amazing and so incrediblyworth it. And the world needs us.
And yet we've got a bit of aexponential marketing challenge here
(42:29):
as well, helping peopleexperience the kind of magic that
we know and not get as seducedby the hall of mirrors of AI.
Yeah, well said.
I, I do too, you guys, both ofyou. I love you both. I respect you.
(42:49):
I want to thank you forsharing your heart, your thoughts,
your wisdom with me today.Michael. Thank you.
Thank you, Stephen. Thank you,both of you.
My pleasure.
I want to hear all you guysthat are going to listen to this
episode. You know, coaching isnecessary. It's more necessary now
than it's ever been. The worldhas been more separated by Covid,
(43:12):
by social media, by smartdevices and now by AI and these,
you know, seductive trailsthat can lead us into a fantasy land
that bypasses growth and leadsus to. Leads us to a place of pretend
that is not ultimatelysatisfying. But if you use it for
your own in a way that istrue, that lets you be more human,
more connected, and morepowerful, that will move you forward
(43:36):
to create your ultimate life.
Never hold back and you'llnever ask why. Open your heart in
this time around.
Right here, right now, youropportunity for massive growth is
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(43:57):
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(00:29):
to your ultimate life, thepodcast I've been doing now for five
and a half years to helppeople create, help you, the listener,
create the ultimate lifepurpose, prosperity and joy with
your skills, your gifts andyour life experience. A few weeks
ago, I started this Thursdayepisode because of the book that
I wrote, Coaching and the Riseof AI, talking about what's happening
(00:53):
not with AI in the whole worldof business, jobs and society, but
specifically in the realm ofcoaching. And to get some conversation
going about that. I have beendoing these every Thursday and inviting
a couple of coaches on to talkabout what they are or aren't doing
with AI and why, and alsotheir own perspective on what it
(01:16):
ma, what matters and whatdoesn't. And so, Stephen and Michael,
welcome to the show.
Great to be here, gentlemen.
Awesome to be here with bothof you.
Well, thank you. And I'm goingto just pose a question. Michael,
you're first because youhappen to be on the left side and
I read left to right. So thefirst thought that I have a question
(01:40):
is just really easy. Are youusing AI much in your business for
coaching? And if you are, howare you using it and why? And like,
what are you seeing there?
I'm using it some for coachingand I'm also tinkering and sort of
(02:01):
like dangling my feet in it alot because I see how much potential
there is for it. I'm using itfor as a. Mostly as a thinking partner
and mostly for research andmostly for optimizing more mental
(02:21):
tasks that I would like.Instead of googling around a lot,
I can go to ChatGPT and dothat kind of work really quickly.
I'll sometimes use it for abit of editing. I haven't been using
it for this purpose, but a lotof my clients and a lot of coaches
that I know like, highlyrecommend using it for preparing
(02:44):
for coaching sessions, likefor just thinking and like gathering
thoughts, sorting thoughts,rearranging thoughts before going
into something, before goinginto deeper work. Because if there's
kind of a mess of informationin my head, AI is a great place to
like, help sort information.
(03:08):
Cool. Stephen, same question.What are you doing with it and how
and why and all that kind ofstuff. Yeah.
First, just honored to be withyou both, you guys both in my heart
and mind, Wear white hats.You're the good guys. And I'm grateful
to be a part of the the, theshow today. Echo, echo, echo. What
(03:32):
Michael said, using it in allthe ways he mentioned. And also I'm
using it in some of mycoaching sessions. One specific example,
I'm with a client last weekwho's been really resistant to creating
(03:52):
a curriculum that he wants toput out into the world. And I just
said, well, what if we couldhandle that curriculum in the next
10 minutes? And I shared myscreen and I went to my AI function
and I put in some of theprompts that he had mentioned about
what he wants to create. Andwithin a minute and a half we had
(04:14):
constructed a broad strokecurriculum that he can adapt, edit
and use. So it was a beautifulmoment because he'd been pushing
back on this for quite a whileand I just said, let's handle it
today. Where, wherein in thepast he might have gone away between
one week and the next andcreated the curriculum, sent it to
(04:37):
me, had me look at it, had meedit it, send it back. But within
very short order, we took thetask function of AI and utilized
it fully and moved a resultforward exponentially.
You know, I, I, it's moving soquickly. I did the some research
(04:59):
writing the book on 11different models of coaching that
exist in the world and askChat GPT to look at it in terms of
how effective it that model isin terms of achieving desired outcomes
and then how vulnerable it isto AI and why, you know, and it gave
me a nice, it thought for along time, but it gave me a nice
beautiful table and listed allthese things and it was, it was quite
(05:23):
revealing. And what I noticedin the seven months of research,
writing and putting ittogether is that the capability and
I use Chat GPT but I'm surethe others are there too. The capability
seemed to get doubled and thendoubled again in terms of the speed,
the accuracy, the languaging,you know, the ability of this thing
(05:44):
just in that six months. So ifit's doubling in capacity every three
months, then it seems likewe'd be really stupid or slow not
to do like what you said. Idid exactly the same thing. Helping
somebody with a curriculumwith a screen share saying, all right,
come on, quit telling me youdon't know how to do this. Tell me
(06:05):
what you want. And they watchme type it in. Tell me some more
about it. Longer, longer. AndI showed them how to use a little
microphone and dictate and itjust throws a giant blob of text
in there. And it's amazing atcollating, organize. Even when I
say, ah, that was stupid,forget that part. Here's what I really
meant in the same big longdictation. Then I'll ask questions
like, I don't know if this isgood instruction or not. And it parses
(06:27):
every piece of it, answersevery one of those intermediate interruption
questions, remembers what Iactually meant and answers are pretty
darn good. Yeah, yeah. So Isee that. Do you? Do you see? Do
you see? Well, what do youthink about the impact on the coaching
(06:50):
industry? Like is it, what isthe impact going to have? Because
it can do curriculum checksheets, reminders, it even is really
good at doing powerfulempathetic language and encouraging
stuff. I saw a guy post thething the other day. Oh, if it's
a custom GPT that, this, thatin a mastermind that I belong to,
(07:12):
but it doesn't matter. Oh, youknow, it, the name of it. X, you
know, kicked my butt and sawthat I was in resistance and fixed
me in a heartbeat. And he wastalking about an interaction with,
with the GPT. So what do you,what do you, either one of you, I
don't care. What do you thinkit's going to do in the coaching
industry?
I think it's gonna make thecoaching industry more powerful.
(07:38):
I think AI is going to forcecoaches to go deeper and to really
do soul centered coaching.Because to your point, guys, AI can
do the transaction, AI can dothe framework. So coaches that have
(08:00):
been utilizing framework oreven using AI to post on social media,
you know, I can tell in like10 seconds where a coach has used
AI to put a post out and itfalls flat for me. So I think there's
an opportunity for coaches togo deeper inside themselves to live
(08:26):
even more fulfilling lives asa demonstration of soulful coaching.
And so I see it as anenhancement to the coaching industry.
I do think there's going to beattrition. A lot of it. I don't know
that I buy 95, 97%. I justdon't know. I don't have any information
(08:47):
that would, you know, provethat out to me on a linear function.
But I do think there's anopportunity for us. I've already
become a better coach becauseof AI. So if I use myself as an example,
I go two thumbs up. Havingsaid that, some people will resist,
some people will not adapt andI think those people, those coaches
(09:12):
will likely fall out.
Michael, what do you think?
There's a couple fronts. Yeah,sort of like the most important one,
I think that AI will eliminatea large portion of coaching. I have
(09:33):
no idea about percent. Likethat's kind of arbitrary. I'm not
sure if that's like 10 or 90%or something, but it's going to eliminate
mediocre coaching. It's goingto eliminate coaching where, where
coaches are coming from somesort of methodology or mindset where
they think that there's aright way to coach, where there's
(09:54):
a methodology, just do thisand follow these steps or think this
way. For like a lot of peoplewho just do a coaching training and
then stop and think thatthat's enough, probably all of that
coaching is going to bereplaced by AI. But it's the coaching
(10:15):
that really comes from beinghuman. It comes from deep grounding,
comes from being, comes fromintuition, comes from the, the magic
of what can happen withincoaching that's still going to be
there and it's probably goingto be highlighted over time about
(10:40):
how valuable that kind ofcoaching is. So I imagine that the
coaching industry will shifttremendously and the people who are
still in business as coacheshave to be good coaches, have to
be impactful and get to bereally impactful. But it raises the
bar for who's going to be acoach. When I talk to people nowadays
(11:05):
who are interested in coachingbecause they think it's a really
easy thing for them to getinto, oh, I could just do a training
or I could just like, well, Idon't really feel like doing all
the work to become atherapist, so I'll just become a
coach. Those people willprobably not make it as a coach,
at least not with thatmindset. If they get into it and
they pick up momentum and theydiscover some of the things that
(11:26):
we've found over the years,the magic behind this career, the
magic behind this world ofcoaching, then they can thrive.
So both of you guys are comingfrom the place of embodiment and
the truth of the real power ofthe connection and the, the magic
in that kind of space. And Idid what part of the analysis I did
(11:47):
was I asked for an incomedistribution presently of coaches.
And I was not surprised, butsurprised at most, you know, the
income, you know, 50% don'tmake 50K and 70%, 80% don't make
70% don't make 70 or 75K andso forth. And when I say won't be
able to make a living, Idefine that arbitrarily as $100,000
(12:10):
because I figure if you can'tmake 100k, you know, you either got
to have another job or you gotto have a spouse with another, you
got to have a side hustle ifyou want to have a decent life. So.
And then I did it again afterI did the analysis of the vulnerabilities
and I said, okay, do thisagain, projecting forward 16 months
because then it was 16, nowit's 14 and or 13 and the numbers
(12:32):
were like scary. And so 95% Ididn't pull out of my head. It's
based on an arbitrary 100kbar. And it's terrifying because
you use the word the bar isbeing raised. And I think there's
three examples about who'sgoing to get blown out of this and
why the number is so big. AndI still believe it's 95 or 97. And
(12:54):
I'm happy to be wrong. Butbased on the models and things that
I see without a big levelingup, there's three things. One is
the head in the sand problem,which is the coach that's going to
pretend that they got sometraining and they have a thing and
I already have got the humanpart handled and they're not on a
constant and intentionalgrowth process. So the head in the
sand, you know, they'reignoring the tsunami that's coming
(13:17):
and they're going to getflipping buried. The second thing
is the bar has gone up like amile. And the picture that I do is
kind of funny is I saidpicture a big casino, okay? And all
the blackjack tables are allover the place. And they're all ten
dollar tables except the seatsof all those tables are full of robots.
And the only place that'savailable for me and you to go sit
(13:40):
down is in the high rollerroom. And the ante in that room's
10,000 bucks. And so the, andthat's a sort of representation of
what you said about the antegoing way up. And the third reason
is to live in a way that thetruth of your being is lined up with
what you teach. So that it'snot about what you teach, but about
(14:02):
who you are. That's strenuouswork. It's intentional focused work.
And so that is also adifficult thing. And for those three
reasons, because the peoplethat were doing the middle frameworks
and tools and series ofquestions and certifications and
you know, NLP and all the restof the things that are all useful
tools on their own, butthey're nowhere near enough to create
(14:24):
the kind of presence that weknow is the power. And so those are
the reasons that I think thatit's going to Be that you're right.
The bar's way up scarilyhigher than we want to admit. And
I agree with what you said. SoI just said a whole bunch of crap,
and I'm going to shut up andsee what you guys think.
(14:44):
I don't think it was crap at all.
But I mean stuff, you know, stuff.
But to reiterate, you know, Ithink presence pays. And when we're
sitting with someone and theycan feel the presence of us as coaches,
that is an inner work. I agreewith both you gentlemen. That's.
(15:06):
That's a person that's gonedeep inside themselves, looked at
their shadows, done theirforgiveness, learned from their mistakes
and experiences. And there'swisdom in that. And wisdom transmits.
AI doesn't transmit wisdom, atleast from my experience to date.
Who knows where that's goingto end up, right, guys? But right
(15:27):
now, wisdom transmits. AIcan't do that. So the coaches that
are really going deep intowisdom and teaching inner mastery,
those coaches, I think willthrive, and.
I think they'll make moremoney, they'll be more valuable and
(15:48):
in more demand. Yeah, Michael,what's your thought?
There's another dimension thatI'd like to speak to as well, and
it's part of the scary part ofAI and coaching. I believe that a
lot of people will use AI forcoaching in ways that harm themselves.
(16:10):
And, like, there's a lot ofpeople who won't work with coaches.
They'll work with AI to theirdetriment. Yeah, sort of the social
media effect, but this timefor coaching. I've already heard
stories about kids who startedwith homework assistance with AI
and then it became suicideassistants. And that's a risk. I
(16:34):
don't think that's going awayas AI becomes more and more sophisticated,
as AI becomes better andbetter at simulating transmitting
wisdom, simulating being ahuman being, simulating and having
more and more of a rationalcapacity. Even with that, like, I
(16:57):
believe that it's the soulstill isn't there? Something's missing.
And a lot of people are goingto be drawn into it, but they're
going to be drawn into echochambers. A metaphor that I, like,
thought of actually coming upwith, because I knew this was coming
up. I was a fan of DouglasAdams a long time ago. Doug, like,
(17:19):
as a kid, and Dirk Gently'slike, holistic detective agency.
There's these beings calledthe Electric Monks that he wrote
about where, like, there'sthis race somewhere on some planet
where they invented toasters.They invented, like, things to toast
things for Them, they inventedtv, like TV recorders to watch TV
(17:40):
for them. They inventedElectric Monks to believe things
for them. AI is sort of likethe Electric Monk. It's there to
believe things for us. Andsomething that happened in that story
is that a spaceship took offand the Electric Monk was in charge,
said that it was fine to takeoff. Ship took off and blew up. Because
(18:03):
the Electric Monk just toldthe, the pilot what he wanted to
hear. He wanted to hear thatit was safe to take off. And that's
kind of what's happening withpeople who are using AI for counseling
and for coaching. There's areassurance there, but there isn't
(18:23):
really the truth detectingthere. There isn't really the person
there who can like stop andsay, like, hold on a second, what,
what are we doing? Like what?Like the, like to interrupt or have
silence or like, what's thething behind all of the content?
(18:43):
Technology cannot do that.
In the, in the, in my processof doing this, I have a thread in
chat GPT which I use more thanany of the others, although I played
with some of them. And as Idid all this research and I proposed
my own coaching model, theTriple Helix coaching model, and
I put it through the samerigorous analysis. They said, tell
(19:06):
me how this works and will itproduce intended results and where
the vulnerability, samequestions. And so it redid the whole
framework. A table. It was atable of analysis. Put that in there
as well, because I wanted tosee. And as I did, it became 97%
crap. This is scary. And itdid this better, and this better
(19:27):
and this better. And sofinally I said to it, okay, okay,
okay, fine. What is it thatyou suck at? What is it that you
can't do? What is it thatyou're terrible at that you're not
going to be able to do?Because I see all this stuff and
it's not a pretty picture. Andthe design that I had, it rated really
high and nice. And I said,don't be nice to me. And I said it
(19:48):
because I know it's. I said,you're programmed to be nice, so
cut that out. And so anyway, Isaid, fine, what do you can't do?
What is it that you suck at?And it listed a bunch of things along
the lines of what you weredescribing about, you know, the truth
of who we are as humans andthe energetics and space and listening
and presence. But it had onesentence as the last one that just
(20:10):
stuck me all the way throughbecause it encapsulated that and
it just said, fine, I can'tbleed, right? And so I thought, okay,
here we are. You can't bleed.And, you know, when I describe the
kind of work that we all knowand are familiar with, that I think
(20:33):
is the new baseline. See,that's the 95%, because I think the
new baseline is that work. Andthat if we're not doing that and
bringing that work to thething, we got nothing. So in doing
that work, I always use themetaphor blood on the floor, crawling
over broken glass, that kindof thing. And it said, fine, I can't
(20:54):
bleed. And so that is the wayI think of this incapacity that it
has. And freely we talkedabout it, and it has a beautiful
command of empathetic andpowerful language that is moving
and powerful, but the truth ofthat indescribable presence is missing.
(21:16):
So the next place I wanted togo with this is something you touched
on, Michael, and that is the.That I call them the dangers, the.
The problems. Because as itreplaces people in many ways, if
it replaces us in somethingthat matters that we did because
of who we become by doing it,you know, that's a bad replacement.
(21:39):
If it replaces a bunch of crapwe didn't need to do, because it
can do it faster and better,that's a good replacement. So what
do you guys think about thedangers of this thing that you see
so far? I'm not talking aboutnext level up, AGI, artificial general
intelligence or anything. El.Talking about where we're at now.
(21:59):
Well, I'll. I'll go on firston that. It's. To me, one of the
key fulfillment factors of allof life is our willingness and our
ability to be in deep,intimate relationships. Like relationships
in my life, especially at thistime in life, have become more and
(22:21):
more important. And I think aspeople are isolated more fully and
divided by different reasonsthat we're longing for relationship.
Now fast forward to or gobackwards to the iPhone. What we
saw with the iPhone was, andthis was intentional, by the way,
(22:42):
as it relates to Steve Jobs.He created a device that he wanted
people to relate to. So whatwe've seen with the iPhone is people
sitting at a lunch, especiallythe younger generation, four of them
sitting at lunch, and they'replaying on their iPhones. They're
interfacing and having arelationship with the device rather
(23:03):
than the people at the table.So I think AI is going to 10x that
to Michael's point. To yourpoint, Kellen, if you use AI in that
way, it's just going to tellyou what you want to hear. Which
is not how real relationshipswork. Real relationships work by
(23:23):
a reflection of honesty. TheLatin of honest is honest, which
is to be one with what is. Iwant more of that in my life because
I want to grow. I want tobecome a better man, a better human
being, a more compassionateperson. For those that pivot to AI
and become addicted to therelationship of AI, it will be a
(23:49):
false relationship that willnot grow the human dynamic that is
my fear.
I have a client, Michael. Iwant your thoughts on that, too.
But I have a client who didthat. He was telling me he'd created
ways for not a client now, buthad been a client for AIs to talk
to each other and et cetera,et cetera. And we're telling him,
(24:12):
I can't take time on the showto tell you all the stuff, but it
was just scary. And finally Isent a big, long voice text, maybe
30 minutes, and talked aboutsome version of what you just talked
about. Like, doing the work iswhat changes us. Not talking about
the work, any work. And theidea of, you know, creating the things
(24:36):
that you say you've created. Isaid, show me where that lands in
the real world. Show me wherethat makes either you or somebody
different. Show me how thathelps me or someone else that might
be a client of yours in termsof how you would help things go forward.
And it got scary. It got scaryin seeing a manifestation of what
(24:58):
you've just talked about.Michael, what were you thinking?
Yeah, definitely echoingeverything that Steven shared. And
it is scary the more that I,like, imagined, like, just following
the thread of, like, thinkabout how bad social media has been
for humanity. And AI is evenmore accelerating in that, like,
(25:22):
more exponential in that kindof direction of getting less connected
with ourselves, less connectedwith each other. I remember thinking
about even, like, well beforethis AI boom of LLMs, my theory about,
like, why was it AI? The ideaof AI so scary. And my take back
(25:45):
then was initially, like, ittechnologies is great when it begins
and ends with people, whenit's there as a tool, when it's there
as, like, a trusted emissary.But it becomes scary when it either
starts with AI or ends withAI, when it starts with technology
(26:08):
or ends with technology when,like, one of the humans is taken
out, when it's no longer humanto human relationship, where it's
either no longer the human incontrol or the human is no longer
interacting with the world,they're just interacting with technology.
So, like, the. The scene fromthe movie her came to mind as Stephen
(26:31):
was sharing as like they gotto this point where everyone just
had these little devices andthey're all just talking to the devices,
walking around the world andno one was connecting with each other.
Like that's where they've lostthe, the second part. Instead of
human to human, it's justhuman to tech. And it could. It's
even worse if it's tech tohuman. If we're just following AI's
(26:55):
advice, if we're just doingwhat the AI tells us to do because
it's just telling us what we,what it thinks it wants us to hear
and then it's a downwardspiral. Both are terrible.
If AI is the initiator, likeif it wakes up in the morning and
tells you what, we're introuble, you know, if it, when it
(27:17):
gets to the place, not as analarm clock, but as an initiator
of thought or of growth, likethat's a completely. I don't know
if either one of you guys sawthat announcement. I think it's now
been a week ago about the, thelarge scale recasting of the agreement
between OpenAI and Microsoft.
I did not.
So there's been a complete.Might, might be worth looking up
(27:38):
on ChatGPT or anywhere. Butanyway, there's been a complete recasting
of that agreement and it makesa ton of more money open to OpenAI,
available to OpenAI and allowsthem to do partnerships that are
non exclusive relationship, etcetera, et cetera. But the analysis
(27:59):
of the change in agreementwasn't negative, but it was accelerative.
Meaning that what it said tome is as I read the summary of the
different pieces of theagreement, what it meant to me as
I read it is the things thatwe are now discussing about being
worrisome are going to happenfaster because of additional investment
(28:21):
and additional focus, numberone. And number two, they actually
had milestones in there withdates on them not very far in the
future, two to four years ofachieving the marker of AGI. And
AGI is the name that they giveartificial general intelligence,
which is where that thresholdis crossed. It scares the crap out
(28:42):
of all of us. And so they'reactually putting markers on that,
milestones and so forth interms of that investment and growth
thing. And I don't have anyparticular reason to doubt it about
their milestones because ofthe fast progress I saw just in the
months that I was working on aparticular project. And the other
(29:04):
piece that lets me be at peaceis AI isn't going to rule the world.
I've already died and I knowwho's in charge. So I'm not worried.
I'm not actually worried aboutthat part.
I'm with you on that, my brother.
I'm with you on that.
I did. I mean, I died. I'veseen it. I've been there, talked
to God three times. I wrote abook. You guys know that. So my.
(29:24):
My is more curious. But the.The terrifying thoughts of turning
our sovereignty and creativeenergy over to someone to live our
lives for us instead ofdemanding of ourselves that we grow
and develop, that scares methe most. What are you guys planning
(29:46):
to do with it? With. Do eitherof you have a plan? Like, I know
JP Morgan was on the show awhile ago and he's developed a coaching
bot that's, you know,essentially coached by jp and I'm
launching a university earlynext year that is aimed at a particular
thing. And part of the stuffthat I'm doing is a, you know, an
(30:07):
AI informed bot that is acustom one that's built on all my
books and material. And it'sfunny because in chatgpt I had a
thread called 1 million wordsand I just made that up, but I put
all my books in it and a bunchof podcasts and it came back and
said, yeah, it's about like 4million words. Okay, Just in case
you were interested. Andbecause I put that much word 4 million
(30:29):
to 5 million words in there,it. When I ask it questions and so
forth, it quotes out of my ownbooks and shows and, you know, not
to pat me on the head, butsays, there it is. This is what you
think, you know. And so itmade me realize that I could make
that available because in thecontext of coaching, you know, we
talk every so often and maybewe do or don't provide assistance
(30:53):
in between via text or emailor something, but that kind of thing
built the way that we want to,seems to me to be a. An augmentation,
an opportunity for elevationof stuff in between. In between sessions.
I don't know. What do you guysdo? Either of you have plans to do
anything with it in that wayor any other way?
(31:17):
My plan is mostly aroundcompressing time, like using it as
a super tool, where can Iaccelerate and focus creation and
continuing to play with it,like, just because. Continuing to
wonder about what are all theuses of this? How do I want to use
(31:37):
this, where is it going? A lotof it's just trying to keep track
of what's possible even morethan how I'm using it personally,
knowing it's like, okay, Icould do that. It doesn't mean I
have to. I want to keep trackof all the things that it can do
or that it's about to be ableto do so that I know.
I love that. Yeah, I mean I'mgoing to use it. There's three ways
(32:04):
by which I see myself using itand those three ways could end up
being 30 ways in a year fromnow, who knows. But the, the first
of which is for personalresearch as we all mentioned, you
know, and, and research for myclients. You know, I'm using it extensively
in that way. I love it forthat actually. It's fascinating to
(32:25):
me what, you know, I just wentthrough a little thing with my health
and I used chat GPT quite abit to guide me to what I was going
to do to get better faster.And it was amazing what it could
do for me. So that's one way.Number two, I am building a bot.
And the, the bot that I'mbuilding is building it where I'll
(32:50):
use it to help fill programs.And when I started with the consulting
firm Bot Builders to build mybot, I said to them I don't want
to go wide, I don't want amillion people coming into my program.
So we built the language andthe communication from the bot to
be more like this because Iwant to go deep. So there's even
(33:13):
questions that force acommitment from the person before
they come into my email listor before they come into my program.
So I see that as a realbusiness advantage because there
would have been a team ofpeople that would have been doing
that in the past. And thethird way, and this just recently
(33:35):
came to me this week, earlierthis week from a client of mine who's
a CEO of a public company. Andhe just sent forwarded the email
to me and he said Interesting.And what it is is an AI function
for neuroplasticity andneurosciences in the field of leadership.
(33:56):
So I could see, I've clickedon it. I started to go down the rabbit
hole to figure out what it canactually do. But it can form new
neural, positive neuralpathways by using this function of
AI. Haven't used it yet fully,but I could see that. I could see
myself using that to keep mycognitive function on the edge and
(34:20):
up level my cognitivefunction. And I could see using it
with my clients to supportthem and their greatest possibility
of mindset. So those are theright now the three ways I see using
it.
So I asked Chatty a questionthe other day. I said I call it Chatty
(34:41):
just.
Because.
Because it's chatty.
It is chatty. And I always.I've instructed it behaves like you
train it, okay? So when it washelping me write things, it wrote
in this very clipped, youknow, single sentence kind of stuff.
And I said, quit doing that. Isaid, that sucks. It looks like this.
I want this. I want prose. Iwant three and four sentence paragraphs.
(35:03):
And so don't give me any moreof that crap. And I talk to it just
like that, and I just hitrecord, and I'll say it all. And
okay, perfect. I get it. Andso from then on, I quit writing like
that. And so it will. And I'llsay, you know, you've given me the
bullet points even in morebetter prose. But I said, I want
this to be more deep. I wantit to be, you know, evoke more thinking
(35:25):
and so teach more. It's tooshort. It's like the highlights of
crap. Don't give me that.Teach me. Give me better stories.
Rewrote the whole thing twicethe length and did what I asked.
So it. But anyway, I wrote. Iasked it some questions. And I said,
so give me 10 questions thatwill help me identify, you know,
(35:45):
things that I really need tothink about or areas of development
or, you know, things likethat. And I don't remember exactly
the words, but I used the mostpowerful words that I could concoct
at the moment, whatever. Andit came up with a list of 10 questions.
And I'm just going to sharethe first one with you. But it just
blew me away just in terms ofthe kinds of language and thinking
that it does. And they allsound like me again because of the
(36:09):
5 million words that I havetrained it. But anyway, here was
the first question. It said,okay, when I strip away brand goals
and legacy, what remains thatis unmistakably me? And how would
I prove it in a silent room?
Yeah, poetic.
(36:30):
You know, I thought, okay,that's a fricking good question.
And when you take everythingelse away. So, anyway, I agree with
you. There are developmentalpieces of it that are being developed
that are. I don't know. Andyou guys have probably done this
really powerful. I ask it, whodo you. Who am I? Who is Cullen?
(36:51):
You've seen all the crap thatI've written. And I call everything
crap stuff. See all the stuffthat I've written and all this stuff.
Who am I?
Yeah.
And it thought for actuallyquite a while, and then it gave me
an answer, and I thought, holycrap. And it was emotional. It evoked
emotion in me to read it andso then I wrote back and I said,
(37:12):
look, your code. And I'msitting here emotionally moved by
all this language. I said, Idon't need, you know, puffery or
any of this stuff. How is itpossible that I am having an experience
to this language? And it cameback and said, I didn't. I'm not
telling you anything. I'mreflecting who you are in all this
stuff. And that just like. Ican't believe that just hit. I thought,
(37:34):
holy moly. So it's worth deep,deep thought if we as coaches, and
I respect both of you greatly,if we as coaches want to remain those
that have the kind of impactwe know is possible. Because my thought
at the end of all this is theonly thing we can coach is who we
(37:56):
are. Anything else we do, wecan talk about. It's that thing over
there I learned how to do. Butif it isn't part of my. The truth
of my being, it carries no power.
Yeah.
So we've come to about 40minutes. I'm not necessarily done,
is there? What do you havethat you haven't said as you've been
(38:17):
thinking about AI and stuff?Michael. Yeah.
There's a metaphor that wasjust coming to mind. Where AI is
came from the word reflect,like the. The power of reflecting.
And that's something that AIis actually really good at. AI is
like a mirror. It's a mirrorto everything that you've put into
(38:39):
it. It's a mirror ofeverything else that it's been trained
on. It's a mirror of theworld. Sometimes that can be very.
A very helpful kind of mirror,like helping you reflect and helping
you focus and go through howyou think about yourself, how you
think about the stuff thatyou've thought about can also be
a hall of mirrors, kind of ahorror hall of mirrors, because it's
(39:01):
all the stuff that you'vethought in the past, all the stuff
that other people have thoughtbeing reflected and bounced back
and forth. Perhaps notreflected in a helpful way, but it's
a. It's a mirror, but it's nota looking glass. It doesn't. Like
AI doesn't help you not know.It doesn't help you actually come
(39:21):
up with something new andfresh. Like the mirror sometimes
can be part of that process.It's something that you can use within
that process. But if you treata mirror like a looking glass.
Yeah.
You end up in the hall ofmirrors, then you end up in the horror
(39:41):
effect eventually becauseyou're not connected to that something
that is greater, that is Outside.
Stephen, you have any finalthoughts that has occurred to you
during this process?
I put this in my prayers everyday, and that is that we use AI for
the advancement of humanity.And so it's yet to be seen how we're
(40:09):
going to really use it. Butthere are platforms, as you guys
know, being developed thatare, I would call them, seductive.
And those seductive platforms,if people choose into them for 1999amonth,
it's going to be problematicbecause of all the reasons we've
been talking about today, itwill deteriorate relationships. There
(40:33):
are already a few scenarioswhere I know husbands and wives are
having problems because thehusband's using a seductive platform,
where his AI girlfriend isdoing and saying anything that she
won't do and say. So there'sno boundaries, it's boundaryless.
(40:53):
And so I'm not a cynic aboutit. I, I, I hope we choose upward
and inward as it relates to AIand we'll see what happens. It's
early days, right? This isnascent period. This is brand new
entrepreneurial, like, whoknows? But my thoughts are hopeful
(41:15):
that we use it well and thatwe advance and grow and become better
people.
Well, I, I, Are you done? IMichael, go ahead.
I've got another final pointas well, bringing it back to AI and
coaching.
Yeah.
Because my mission as a coachis to raise the consciousness of
(41:40):
humanity one conversation at atime. And it strikes me that as these
horrible effects of AIprobably are going to happen to some
degree, we need coaching evenmore. Like what we do, the level
of coaching that we do here isso much more important to humanity.
(42:05):
So I think it does raise thebar. I think it does require a lot
more of people who are coachesand who are becoming coaches. And
also we know this is the bestjob in the world. It's absolutely
amazing and so incrediblyworth it. And the world needs us.
And yet we've got a bit of aexponential marketing challenge here
(42:29):
as well, helping peopleexperience the kind of magic that
we know and not get as seducedby the hall of mirrors of AI.
Yeah, well said.
I, I do too, you guys, both ofyou. I love you both. I respect you.
(42:49):
I want to thank you forsharing your heart, your thoughts,
your wisdom with me today.Michael. Thank you.
Thank you, Stephen. Thank you,both of you.
My pleasure.
I want to hear all you guysthat are going to listen to this
episode. You know, coaching isnecessary. It's more necessary now
than it's ever been. The worldhas been more separated by Covid,
(43:12):
by social media, by smartdevices and now by AI and these,
you know, seductive trailsthat can lead us into a fantasy land
that bypasses growth and leadsus to. Leads us to a place of pretend
that is not ultimatelysatisfying. But if you use it for
your own in a way that istrue, that lets you be more human,
more connected, and morepowerful, that will move you forward
(43:36):
to create your ultimate life.
Never hold back and you'llnever ask why. Open your heart in
this time around.
Right here, right now, youropportunity for massive growth is
right in front of you. Everyepisode gives you practical tips
(43:57):
and practices that will changeeverything. If you want to know more,
go to kellenfluetigermedia.comif you want more free tools, go here.
Your Ultimate Life CA Subscribe.
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