March 11, 2025 • 30 mins
You can text us here with any comments, questions, or thoughts!
In this episode, Kemi welcomes Dr. Mia Yang, a geriatrician and associate professor at Wake Forest School of Medicine, to discuss her unique journey in the healthcare system. Dr. Yang received her medical degree from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Medicine and has been in practice between 10+ years. She has expertise in treating diabetes, Alzheimer's dementia, dementia, among other conditions and she is also is an alumnus of our Get That Grant® coaching program!
Join the conversation as Mia shares her insights on the challenges of geriatrics, understanding the complexities of patient care, and the importance of grant writing in creating meaningful change.
Highlights:
- Mia's journey in balancing clinical work and research
- The significance of grant writing and strategic planning
- Building a supportive community and mentorship in healthcare
- Advice for women of color faculty in the Get That Grant® program
Loved this convo? Please go find Dr. Yang on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and BlueSky (@askdrmia.bsky.social) to show her some love! You can also check out her podcast, Ask Dr. Mia: Answers on Dementia Caregiving, at www.miayangmd.com.
And if you'd like to learn more foundational career navigation concepts for women of color in academic medicine and public health, sign up for our KD Coaching Foundations Series: www.kemidoll.com/foundations.
REMINDER: Your Unapologetic Career Podcast now releases episode every other week! Can't wait that long? Be sure you are signed up for our newsletter (above) where there are NEW issues every month!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
in our healthcare system and also in the way that
we train future physicians,there is very much this
artificial siloing of peopleinto, you know, one specific
box.
And I have always pushed againstthis artificial box in all my
differentiation.
I just can't get these thingsthat are like the least
(00:22):
differentiated.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (00:25):
That is so like hashtag get that grant Katie
coach value.
Like I feel like it's likepeople People just constantly
resisting the label, resistingthe box, crossing fields, being
interdisciplinary in all ways.
If you feel that way, if you'relistening to me and you're like,
that really sounds like me, thenyou really need to stay for the
rest of this conversationbecause I think what we're going
to get into is how that isactivating for you, how you have
(00:49):
all that passion, but also howthat can be challenging within
the structures that we arewithin.
Hello, hello.
You are listening to YourUnapologetic Career.
Being a woman of color facultyin academic medicine who wants
(01:11):
to make a real difference withyour career can be tough.
Listen, these systems are notbuilt for us, but that doesn't
mean we can't make them work forus.
In each episode, I'll be takinga deep dive into one core growth
strategy so you can gainconfidence and effectiveness
Thank you so much for joiningus.
(02:03):
Hello, hello, and welcome backto the show, folks.
I'm really excited today to betalking to one of our Get That
Grant alumni.
These are so fun, reallyinteresting conversations for me
because I've said before, but Irepeat myself and I'm good with
it.
It never ceases to amaze me howmuch something that was created
(02:23):
years ago when I felt like I wasin such deep struggle figuring
out how to do this career, etcetera, is continuing to give
back to other people years andyears and years down the line.
And it's a testament to how muchat the time when I was writing
this curriculum, it felt like areally ridiculous thing to do.
There's like all these otherpriorities going, but I just
(02:45):
felt like this is really callingto me and following that really
paid off.
And so I really want to thankyou, Mia, for being here today
and like contributing to thatexperience that I get to have.
And I'm really excited for therest of our listeners to hear
more about you and your work.
So with that said, can you letthem know who you are and kind
of where you are in the worldand then what kind of work you
(03:06):
do.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Thank you so much for having me, Dr.
Doll Kemi.
Oh, you better call me Kemi.
Okay.
All right.
I don't know.
I'm jumping into the doctorhere.
My name is Mia Yang.
I am a geriatrician andassociate professor within Wake
Forest School of Medicine inWinston-Salem, North Carolina,
and that I do a spectrum of workclinically ranging from
(03:31):
home-based medical care all theway to inpatient care, but my
research focus is really ondementia care models, kind of
translating clinical trials,models of care that are
comprehensive and collaborativewith patients and family
caregivers into routine clinicalpractice.
SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
I love it.
I had two thoughts.
One is I just think it's sointeresting how so many of you
in Get That Grant that comethrough are like doing the kind
of work that like often herepeople are like, why, how come
the healthcare system is sobroken?
And how come somebody is notfiguring out how to do this?
or make this easier.
And I always wanna be like, weare.
A lot of people who specificallywanna ask these kinds of
(04:12):
questions to make yourhealthcare experience better and
make it make more sense.
And yet it's not easy to do,right?
And so that was like my veryfirst thought was just wanting
to like rah-rah for the factthat a lot of us really are
trying to make sense of thisinsanely broken system.
My second question was, can youtell folks what a geriatrician
(04:32):
is and then what made you wantto go into that field?
specifically?
Because I think it calls to acertain, there's like a clear
interest there to choosegeriatrics.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
Yeah.
So this is funny because when Iwas going through geriatric
fellowship, so it's anadditional specialization,
usually after people finishinternal medicine or family
medicine residency.
And I say it like a pediatricianfor young children, a
geriatrician is a doctor who isspecialized in the care of older
(05:04):
adults.
And you might think, well, thereshould be lots of geriatricians
with the boomers getting olderand Medicare funding so much of,
you know, postgraduate medicaleducation.
But there are still very, veryfew of us.
And in fact, there are decliningnumber of people who are
choosing to go into geriatricsfor a multitude of reasons.
(05:27):
But I think some of it comesfrom there's not enough of us to
be in medical education to showlearners how great the field of
geriatrics
SPEAKER_02 (05:38):
could
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
be.
But I also think there's otherstructural issues like the fact
that insurance typically paysfor procedural specialties
higher than a cognitivespecialty.
And that ageism is alive andreal, y'all.
Both internalized and external.
And so why did I decide to gointo geriatrics?
(06:01):
I think it's really, initially Ichose geriatric really as almost
like an extension of my internalmedicine training.
I just felt like I wanted tolearn more about all the places,
all the settings that mypatients go through.
And I think geriatricsfellowship really kind of fills
those gaps that have beentraditionally missing in typical
(06:25):
adult medicine training, whichis, you know, nursing home,
rehab facilities, hospice, homecare, all of the things that's
kind of a mix of neural Thankyou so much.
(07:05):
work with communityorganizations, gosh, I mean,
just the type of knowledge thatwe have really should be more
widely disseminated.
And yet, why are fewer and fewertrainees deciding to go into
geriatrics?
I think it's something that thefield has really grappled with.
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
Yeah, I thank you for that really comprehensive
kind of 360 look at it, like whyyou wanted to do it, which was
this desire to understand more.
I know what you mean.
about the black box.
It's like they get dischargedand it's like, good luck, you
know?
And it's like, I remember, Imean, it's been a long time, but
I still do remember my internalmedicine rotation days where it
was like, I just remember likethe whole goal is to get the
(07:47):
person to a SNF, which is askilled nursing facility, but we
say SNF because SNF.
And like, I just also rememberhow it was like, and that was
it.
It was like out of theimagination.
It's like, oh, the social workerfigured out a SNF, it's done.
But of course you're looking atthe person the day they're
leaving and you're like, what isabout to happen to you?
Like, You're going from thisinpatient setting to where, to
(08:08):
what, and you know, there's theinevitable bounce backs and all
that.
So I hear what you're sayingabout like being oriented, going
towards those black boxes foryou.
You were like, no, I want toactually know the full story.
I want to, I want to understandit.
And the complexity of it is notintimidating to me.
And I don't know anythingspecifically about geriatrics
(08:29):
and like the conversations youall are having in the field, but
I think that any field, and Iinclude mine in this, any field
where there's like either clearor increasing challenges or
barriers or things to the field,we really do have to get out
there to communicate to peoplelike what is so desirable?
(08:49):
What is so interesting?
What is so activating aboutthat?
Because I don't know.
I just think that I see a trendwhere people are like, I've
worked really hard, you know,and I like, I don't want to add
to my hardship.
And I'm always like, of course,like nobody wants you to add to
your hardship.
But on the other side, Mia, Iwant you to have a career that
feels fulfilling.
(09:09):
And if you're choosing yourcareer just based on the fact
that it feels easy, you're goingto get bored.
Like you really are.
And then like, you don't knowwhat it's like to be looking at
decades in a job that doesn'tgive you, it doesn't excite you.
It doesn't challenge you.
It doesn't do anything likethat.
So that is my mini lecture aboutthe topic in general.
(09:31):
But I totally hear you aboutthat interesting dichotomy.
And do you feel this way likesometimes there's like a certain
pride though I have and like Ipick something that people you
know what I mean that like youreally have to pick this it's
not a default pathway and I'mlike proud to like be a part of
it do you feel that internallytoo I
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
do I do feel oftentimes that there's a bit of
a chip on my shoulder in thesense that you know I sometimes
even hear from colleagues ininternal medicine like why would
you do a geriatric fellowshiplike I take care of older adults
you know but that's not that'snot the same and it's a
different, it kind of underminesthe specialist additional
(10:12):
training and
SPEAKER_02 (10:12):
understanding.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
And I do think that geriatrics in particular is a
very, both a very holistic fieldin the sense that when we think
of problems, we don't think ofit as a disease focus.
We think of it as functionallyfocused.
So, you know, the classic fourM's of geriatrics, those would
be, you know, medications, milkmentation or mood, and then what
(10:39):
matters most.
So those cross organs and crossdisease states, which I think
it's really ultimately what'smost important.
But I think that in ourhealthcare system and also in
the way that we train futurephysicians, there is very much
this artificial siloing ofpeople into one specific box.
(11:01):
And I have always pushed againstthis artificial box in all my
differentiation.
I just kept picking things thatare like the least
differentiated.
Yes.
Oh, I'm just going to resist.
I'm going to resist.
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Oh my God.
That is so like hashtag get thatgrant Katie coach value.
Like I feel like it's likepeople just constantly resisting
the label, resisting the box,like crossing fields, right.
Being interdisciplinary, like inall ways.
If you feel that way, if you'relistening to me and you're like,
that really sounds like me, thenyou really need need to stay for
the rest of this conversation,because I think what we're going
(11:39):
to get into is how that isactivating for you, how feeling
that way is activating for you,how you have all that passion,
but also how that can bechallenging within the
structures that we are within.
So that's what we're going toget into.
So with that said, why don't youtell us a little bit about what
challenges you were having andlike where you were in your
(12:00):
career, what was going on whenyou were like, I need coaching
help, or I'm going to at leastgive this a try.
What wasn't working for you.
SPEAKER_00 (12:07):
Right.
So I have been exposed to kindof personal life coaching before
I really started get that grant.
And I have been in otherprofessional development
programs, both sort of, yeah,mostly internally within the
institution.
And I always felt like therewasn't a great fit for me as
someone who wanted to straddleboth clinical work and research.
(12:31):
I always felt like I was sort ofin between fields, whether it's
within geriatrics itself, butalso larger context of, you
know, how do I not only makeresearch work for its academic
outputs, but how do I actuallymake it make real change in real
people's lives?
Yeah, right.
(12:51):
Beyond
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
my number of papers.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
exactly.
I want research to be a methodto create change rather than the
product.
Yes!
SPEAKER_01 (13:03):
Sorry, I can't help it.
It's a tool.
Research is a tool.
It's right.
These professional developmentprograms that you had been in
and stuff were just like, I'msure they were helpful.
It's not being a hundred percentdisparaging, but just like there
was this limit.
They weren't really speaking tolike your orientation maybe
around what you were trying todo.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (13:23):
Yes.
And I also think that when itcomes to grant writing, there's
a very different focus whenyou're a clinician versus if
you're primarily doing researchAnd I've never been someone who
was 80% or 85% devoted toresearch, partly because I tried
(13:45):
unsuccessfully writing for aK-23 for three years until I
felt like I was really trying tosqueeze myself like a round peg
into a square hole.
And so I've always needed adifferent set of tools to be
able to one, set my clinicalresponsibilities as to really
(14:06):
focus and prioritize my researchinterests.
But also I felt like my mentors,both internally and externally,
were either not doing the typeof research that I wanted to do
or that they were great at whatthey did, but couldn't really
translate that to teach me tohow to do it myself.
(14:27):
Yep.
Amen.
And so I actually found youafter I was promoted to
associate professor because Iwas like, okay, I've gotten
lucky with sponsorship andmentorship so far to get
promoted, but I really need tokick this up a notch in terms of
doing some of the grant writingand the way of thinking about my
(14:50):
career in a more, I don't knowif systematic is the right way,
but in a way that serves me forthe sustainable future and not
just kind of push here, pushthere, kind of do it
sporadically depending on who istelling me to do what.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Yep.
Yeah.
I follow you a hundred percent.
I think, I think what a lot ofpeople experience is like, Ooh,
I got really good adviceclinically.
And then they do that andthey're like, okay, but this
does not work for what I want todo in research.
And then they get, they're like,Ooh, I got really great research
advice.
And then they try that andthey're like, I cannot do this,
my clinic.
Like, and so what they'reconstantly experiencing is this,
like, I guess I'm devoted tothis during this season.
And then, and it just, like yousaid, it's not sustainable.
(15:31):
And you start to realize, like,it's not really a good feeling
to feel like that intention.
Like, oh, if I am doing what I'msupposed to be doing over here
in this part of my job, I amactively not doing what I'm
supposed to be doing in thisother area that I also care
about.
Like, that's not what we'retrying to do.
So I think that's what you'respeaking to as well.
And unfortunately, institution,I mean, institutional culture
(15:53):
is, I think, still really slowto change from this model of,
like you said, 80% research,85%, like basically you don't
have clinical concerns versus orthe opposite.
And I think there are a ofpeople like you that are like,
no, I am in the middle and wantto do real work, like want to
make a difference.
Okay.
So what is a moment and get thatgrant where something really
(16:15):
shifted for you where maybe youhad that thought that you're
like, okay, this really isdifferent from these prior
experiences I had.
And I feel like this is going togive me what I need.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
Yeah, I think I have already been a pretty
self-responsible person where Ididn't need as much of the
coaching in terms of plan Yeah.
(17:05):
having sort of a common projectscope where I think I was
writing grants with sort of acommon project scope, but it was
never elucidated in such a coolway.
But then also this timeline, Ifelt like so much grant writing
advice doesn't account for thetimeline, but I have to account
(17:25):
for the timeline.
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
Yes.
Why do we
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
pack people up like that?
Sorry, go ahead.
I'm like, I need to cover mysalary, the part that I'm not
seeing people.
Yes.
Amen.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
(18:05):
I feel like that is a part whereI probably didn't get enough
feedback or that I wasn't askingfor specific enough feedback to
(18:25):
just focus on the big picture.
But I couldn't tell them thatactually, no, I need you to like
look at the big pictures firstand tell me whether there are
collaborators that I should haveor that I don't instead of
(18:47):
getting into the weeds rightfrom the beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Yes.
Oh, my gosh.
I love this answer.
I'm so glad we get to talk aboutgrants.
Okay, so I agree.
And I think it's interestingbecause you also shared how you
had a multi-year experience withtrying to apply for a K.
And this is the first time thatyou heard what I would say is
grant writing and grants.
grant-getting professionaldevelopment that is focused on
strategy and execution.
(19:11):
And I think we kind of, thetraditional way I think is more
focused on, I don't know, kindof grantsmanship, which does
matter, you know, to somedegree.
But like you said, if you can'tactually get it done, and if you
don't know how to get yourbuilding blocks together, good
ones, like really strong things,then none of that matters
because it all falls apart soquickly.
So things like the CommonProject Scope help you know what
(19:34):
feedback to take.
Like this is so basic.
Like if you know your commonproject scope, then you know
when somebody makes a suggestionthat is outside of that, it
might be a great suggestion, butyou're like, yeah, I'm not going
to do that because that's notwhat I'm doing.
Whereas people always, they'relike, well, how do you know
people have conflicting adviceand what do you take?
I'm like, because you have toget so much more clear first and
(19:54):
then you have to know what youare asking.
Like, what are you askingsomebody for?
And so I really love that youhighlighted that because I think
even that alone starts to changeyour experience of the feedback
loops, because now you have afilter on like what you're using
and why.
I think the work that we doaround like the mentor
optimization and stuff likethat, like kind of turning on
(20:17):
those power analysis skills, Ithink also helps people
understand the differentperspective.
So it's like, oh, this is greatadvice from your perspective,
like you were saying before,right?
But from where I'm trying to go,it actually makes no sense.
These are things that I thinkactually most people need to
explicitly learn and practiceand then see how it comes
together in a grant application.
(20:38):
And then I think, yeah, thefeedback loops.
I love that.
I still use those.
And I don't know if thishappened to you in your K-23 or
not, but like, I think that whatcan happen too is that I do
think we hear Mia a lot.
We hear the advice, like getearly feedback.
Like, don't you, I think youhear that a lot.
Like, oh, you know, don't waittill the last minute, get early
feedback.
But to me, that's not specificenough.
(20:58):
Like on what, so people willkind of, maybe they'll throw
together a specific aims page ormaybe they'll like try to work
really far in advance and puteverything together and then be
like, okay, now I'm just goingto revise it for six months.
Because for six months, you'rechanging your mind about what
you're doing over and overagain.
First of all, that soundsexhausting.
And it's really hard to get to aplace where you feel like you're
(21:20):
building confidence.
Whereas one of the things wetalk about is how critical that
first round of feedback is.
That is what you mentioned,which is, does this idea fly?
Does it float?
Does it make sense?
Unless like why or why not?
And I think what scares peopleabout that is this idea that
like other people can tell youit doesn't make sense and it's
(21:41):
over, but it's not.
It's more like you've got toknow your blind spots.
That's what it is.
It's doing, it's like, you thinkit makes sense totally.
And then somebody can come andtell you like, okay, but what
about this?
And that helps you refine itearly, super early.
So there's a lot more to that,but I just thank you for
sharing, getting into the nittygritty with grants with me.
Cause you know, I love them somuch, but often we end up
(22:03):
talking about purpose mantra andthe spotlight episodes.
It makes me happy to talk aboutgrants.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
Absolutely.
And I feel like in terms of thecommon project scope, what I was
doing was also writing to fitinto grants announcement,
funding announcement, ratherthan deciding what it is that I
want to do and then trying tofind the funding sources to
match that.
Or picking a project becauseit's feasible, but not because
(22:31):
it's exciting.
SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
Yes.
Oh, that's horrible.
Because something's onlyfeasible as long as you have the
willpower to do it.
Right.
Where is your willpower comingfrom when you are not excited
about it and tired?
I'm like, guys, don't do it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
But that's literally some of the mentorship advice
that I've gotten.
Because, you know, say like, ifyou build your K on this larger
grant, then, you know, it'seasier for you to get it.
But then again, this largergrant may not serve the purpose
that Exactly.
So then
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
what are we doing?
(23:34):
feeling first step before yougo.
But often the way that it'soperationalized is what you
said.
It's like, well, this isfeasible and it's easy and it's
this and it's that.
So make this your first step.
But it's like, oh, but thatdoesn't go where I'm trying to
go.
Then what are we doing?
And I think those grants, theyare not as well written.
There's not as much passion.
There's not, it's like, you canfeel the fact that there's a
disconnect between what theperson is really trying to do.
(23:57):
So yeah, I think that's a reallyimportant point that I just love
to reemphasize on this episodethat like, I need people to stop
doing that and And what grantstrategy is for me is to say,
okay, this is my idea.
And maybe I know that it feelstoo big or whatever.
What you want is thoughtpartners who can help you break
it down.
Not people who are going to tellyou to do something else, but
(24:17):
somebody who can be like, oh, Isee exactly what you're trying
to do.
This is how we can pull it back.
This is how we can make thefirst step feasible.
Not, well, I happen to have thislying around, so you might as
well do that and then figure itout.
Do you know, I even had a mentoronce who told me, I cannot
believe this happened.
He was like, well, it doesn'tmatter.
It doesn't really matter whatyou write your K about because
once you get the money, you canjust like do whatever you want.
(24:39):
I mean, as long as you dosomething.
And I was like, what?
He was like, yeah, like nobody'sreally going to check to see
like what you actually did.
So my first thought was you're awhite man.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
Second thought is you're just spending all this
time and energy and training todo something that you are not
actually going to do.
Okay.
All
SPEAKER_01 (25:03):
right.
Mia, Kenya.
you imagine?
I thought this is what they meanabout the audacity.
I was like, I don't, I wanted tobe like, yeah, so I don't do
that.
Like, I don't operate that way.
I don't say I'm going to dothings, planning not to do it.
That is like, I could not evenforce myself to do that.
But it did make me think like,no wonder people are lost, you
(25:25):
know, like no wonder.
And yeah, there's more there,but let's keep going.
So I love how people answer thisquestion.
So I'll just ask you the wayit's written.
What do you have now that youdidn't have before embarking on
the Get That Grant program?
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
I think I have a grant strategy that I did not
have before.
Yes.
But I also think that thecommunity of Get That Grant and
now I'm fully funded, kind ofhaving that community of other
women, you know, clinicianresearchers is also really
(26:00):
empowering to feel like we're inthis together and that I have
have a non-institutionallydependent source of feedback and
help.
And there's politics everywhere,but there are politics where I
am, where sometimes if I alignwith someone else's work, I can
(26:22):
get usurped into their researchagenda rather than doing
something that is really what Iwant to do.
And I also feel like, I thinkfrom my main mentors perspective
like he has done a lot to helpme get to where I am in terms of
my career but he is not someonewho is going to give me the type
(26:44):
of grant writing strategy that Inow have because yeah get that
grant
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
thank you it makes me happy I'm glad you got what
you needed and I want to saythat like that's okay and we
need to get out of the modelthat one person or even your
mentor team is going to doeverything like it's almost like
what going back to being ageriatric and recognizing what
like, we're not going to fixpeople just by seeing them in
clinic and the hospital.
(27:09):
Like it's a multi-pronged kindof approach.
That's what I think about thiscoaching program and the
experiences and everything isthat like, it's not saying
there's no value ininstitutional work or your
mentors, whatever.
It's just saying there's a lotto navigate here.
And if you happen to be kind oflike one of our people, like we
talked about at the beginning,you know, if you have to be
passionate about what you do andyou have a marginalized identity
(27:31):
and like all these things likecome together You care a lot.
It turns out there are a lot ofways you can channel that
productively and thoughtfully toget where you're wanting to go a
little bit easier.
And not all of that.
I think, honestly, most of thatis not necessarily going to be
within and taught within thewalls of your institution.
And so to me, it's just it'sabout the holistic approach.
(27:53):
OK, so we are going to begearing up soonish by the time,
especially this airs, where anew cohort is going to be
starting.
So what advice would you give awoman of color faculty like you
who just signed up?
for GTG and they want to get themost out of it?
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
I would say pace yourself.
Don't worry and don't getoverwhelmed by all of the
content and just kind of do alittle bit at a time.
And I know I certainly didn'tmake all of the coaching
sessions and that's totallyokay.
Listen to them after the fact.
And I also think that having abuddy to check in has been
(28:31):
really helpful as well, giveneverything crazy that's going on
in our world right now, justhaving that community of other
people who are going throughsomething similar is really
helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (28:43):
Yes, I love it.
You heard it from me at firstpace yourself.
Pace yourself.
Thank you so much.
This was so lovely.
And I'm glad we got to talk.
And I just really appreciate yousharing with our larger podcast
community here your experience.
SPEAKER_00 (28:57):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (28:59):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
Take care.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
Thank you for tuning in to the Your unapologetic
career podcast.
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(29:20):
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(29:40):
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(30:19):
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Thank you again for being partof our community.
in our healthcare system and also in the way that
we train future physicians,there is very much this
artificial siloing of peopleinto, you know, one specific
box.
And I have always pushed againstthis artificial box in all my
differentiation.
I just can't get these thingsthat are like the least
(00:22):
differentiated.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (00:25):
That is so like hashtag get that grant Katie
coach value.
Like I feel like it's likepeople People just constantly
resisting the label, resistingthe box, crossing fields, being
interdisciplinary in all ways.
If you feel that way, if you'relistening to me and you're like,
that really sounds like me, thenyou really need to stay for the
rest of this conversationbecause I think what we're going
to get into is how that isactivating for you, how you have
(00:49):
all that passion, but also howthat can be challenging within
the structures that we arewithin.
Hello, hello.
You are listening to YourUnapologetic Career.
Being a woman of color facultyin academic medicine who wants
(01:11):
to make a real difference withyour career can be tough.
Listen, these systems are notbuilt for us, but that doesn't
mean we can't make them work forus.
In each episode, I'll be takinga deep dive into one core growth
strategy so you can gainconfidence and effectiveness
Thank you so much for joiningus.
(02:03):
Hello, hello, and welcome backto the show, folks.
I'm really excited today to betalking to one of our Get That
Grant alumni.
These are so fun, reallyinteresting conversations for me
because I've said before, but Irepeat myself and I'm good with
it.
It never ceases to amaze me howmuch something that was created
(02:23):
years ago when I felt like I wasin such deep struggle figuring
out how to do this career, etcetera, is continuing to give
back to other people years andyears and years down the line.
And it's a testament to how muchat the time when I was writing
this curriculum, it felt like areally ridiculous thing to do.
There's like all these otherpriorities going, but I just
(02:45):
felt like this is really callingto me and following that really
paid off.
And so I really want to thankyou, Mia, for being here today
and like contributing to thatexperience that I get to have.
And I'm really excited for therest of our listeners to hear
more about you and your work.
So with that said, can you letthem know who you are and kind
of where you are in the worldand then what kind of work you
(03:06):
do.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Thank you so much for having me, Dr.
Doll Kemi.
Oh, you better call me Kemi.
Okay.
All right.
I don't know.
I'm jumping into the doctorhere.
My name is Mia Yang.
I am a geriatrician andassociate professor within Wake
Forest School of Medicine inWinston-Salem, North Carolina,
and that I do a spectrum of workclinically ranging from
(03:31):
home-based medical care all theway to inpatient care, but my
research focus is really ondementia care models, kind of
translating clinical trials,models of care that are
comprehensive and collaborativewith patients and family
caregivers into routine clinicalpractice.
SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
I love it.
I had two thoughts.
One is I just think it's sointeresting how so many of you
in Get That Grant that comethrough are like doing the kind
of work that like often herepeople are like, why, how come
the healthcare system is sobroken?
And how come somebody is notfiguring out how to do this?
or make this easier.
And I always wanna be like, weare.
A lot of people who specificallywanna ask these kinds of
(04:12):
questions to make yourhealthcare experience better and
make it make more sense.
And yet it's not easy to do,right?
And so that was like my veryfirst thought was just wanting
to like rah-rah for the factthat a lot of us really are
trying to make sense of thisinsanely broken system.
My second question was, can youtell folks what a geriatrician
(04:32):
is and then what made you wantto go into that field?
specifically?
Because I think it calls to acertain, there's like a clear
interest there to choosegeriatrics.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
Yeah.
So this is funny because when Iwas going through geriatric
fellowship, so it's anadditional specialization,
usually after people finishinternal medicine or family
medicine residency.
And I say it like a pediatricianfor young children, a
geriatrician is a doctor who isspecialized in the care of older
(05:04):
adults.
And you might think, well, thereshould be lots of geriatricians
with the boomers getting olderand Medicare funding so much of,
you know, postgraduate medicaleducation.
But there are still very, veryfew of us.
And in fact, there are decliningnumber of people who are
choosing to go into geriatricsfor a multitude of reasons.
(05:27):
But I think some of it comesfrom there's not enough of us to
be in medical education to showlearners how great the field of
geriatrics
SPEAKER_02 (05:38):
could
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
be.
But I also think there's otherstructural issues like the fact
that insurance typically paysfor procedural specialties
higher than a cognitivespecialty.
And that ageism is alive andreal, y'all.
Both internalized and external.
And so why did I decide to gointo geriatrics?
(06:01):
I think it's really, initially Ichose geriatric really as almost
like an extension of my internalmedicine training.
I just felt like I wanted tolearn more about all the places,
all the settings that mypatients go through.
And I think geriatricsfellowship really kind of fills
those gaps that have beentraditionally missing in typical
(06:25):
adult medicine training, whichis, you know, nursing home,
rehab facilities, hospice, homecare, all of the things that's
kind of a mix of neural Thankyou so much.
(07:05):
work with communityorganizations, gosh, I mean,
just the type of knowledge thatwe have really should be more
widely disseminated.
And yet, why are fewer and fewertrainees deciding to go into
geriatrics?
I think it's something that thefield has really grappled with.
SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
Yeah, I thank you for that really comprehensive
kind of 360 look at it, like whyyou wanted to do it, which was
this desire to understand more.
I know what you mean.
about the black box.
It's like they get dischargedand it's like, good luck, you
know?
And it's like, I remember, Imean, it's been a long time, but
I still do remember my internalmedicine rotation days where it
was like, I just remember likethe whole goal is to get the
(07:47):
person to a SNF, which is askilled nursing facility, but we
say SNF because SNF.
And like, I just also rememberhow it was like, and that was
it.
It was like out of theimagination.
It's like, oh, the social workerfigured out a SNF, it's done.
But of course you're looking atthe person the day they're
leaving and you're like, what isabout to happen to you?
Like, You're going from thisinpatient setting to where, to
(08:08):
what, and you know, there's theinevitable bounce backs and all
that.
So I hear what you're sayingabout like being oriented, going
towards those black boxes foryou.
You were like, no, I want toactually know the full story.
I want to, I want to understandit.
And the complexity of it is notintimidating to me.
And I don't know anythingspecifically about geriatrics
(08:29):
and like the conversations youall are having in the field, but
I think that any field, and Iinclude mine in this, any field
where there's like either clearor increasing challenges or
barriers or things to the field,we really do have to get out
there to communicate to peoplelike what is so desirable?
(08:49):
What is so interesting?
What is so activating aboutthat?
Because I don't know.
I just think that I see a trendwhere people are like, I've
worked really hard, you know,and I like, I don't want to add
to my hardship.
And I'm always like, of course,like nobody wants you to add to
your hardship.
But on the other side, Mia, Iwant you to have a career that
feels fulfilling.
(09:09):
And if you're choosing yourcareer just based on the fact
that it feels easy, you're goingto get bored.
Like you really are.
And then like, you don't knowwhat it's like to be looking at
decades in a job that doesn'tgive you, it doesn't excite you.
It doesn't challenge you.
It doesn't do anything likethat.
So that is my mini lecture aboutthe topic in general.
(09:31):
But I totally hear you aboutthat interesting dichotomy.
And do you feel this way likesometimes there's like a certain
pride though I have and like Ipick something that people you
know what I mean that like youreally have to pick this it's
not a default pathway and I'mlike proud to like be a part of
it do you feel that internallytoo I
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
do I do feel oftentimes that there's a bit of
a chip on my shoulder in thesense that you know I sometimes
even hear from colleagues ininternal medicine like why would
you do a geriatric fellowshiplike I take care of older adults
you know but that's not that'snot the same and it's a
different, it kind of underminesthe specialist additional
(10:12):
training and
SPEAKER_02 (10:12):
understanding.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
And I do think that geriatrics in particular is a
very, both a very holistic fieldin the sense that when we think
of problems, we don't think ofit as a disease focus.
We think of it as functionallyfocused.
So, you know, the classic fourM's of geriatrics, those would
be, you know, medications, milkmentation or mood, and then what
(10:39):
matters most.
So those cross organs and crossdisease states, which I think
it's really ultimately what'smost important.
But I think that in ourhealthcare system and also in
the way that we train futurephysicians, there is very much
this artificial siloing ofpeople into one specific box.
(11:01):
And I have always pushed againstthis artificial box in all my
differentiation.
I just kept picking things thatare like the least
differentiated.
Yes.
Oh, I'm just going to resist.
I'm going to resist.
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Oh my God.
That is so like hashtag get thatgrant Katie coach value.
Like I feel like it's likepeople just constantly resisting
the label, resisting the box,like crossing fields, right.
Being interdisciplinary, like inall ways.
If you feel that way, if you'relistening to me and you're like,
that really sounds like me, thenyou really need need to stay for
the rest of this conversation,because I think what we're going
(11:39):
to get into is how that isactivating for you, how feeling
that way is activating for you,how you have all that passion,
but also how that can bechallenging within the
structures that we are within.
So that's what we're going toget into.
So with that said, why don't youtell us a little bit about what
challenges you were having andlike where you were in your
(12:00):
career, what was going on whenyou were like, I need coaching
help, or I'm going to at leastgive this a try.
What wasn't working for you.
SPEAKER_00 (12:07):
Right.
So I have been exposed to kindof personal life coaching before
I really started get that grant.
And I have been in otherprofessional development
programs, both sort of, yeah,mostly internally within the
institution.
And I always felt like therewasn't a great fit for me as
someone who wanted to straddleboth clinical work and research.
(12:31):
I always felt like I was sort ofin between fields, whether it's
within geriatrics itself, butalso larger context of, you
know, how do I not only makeresearch work for its academic
outputs, but how do I actuallymake it make real change in real
people's lives?
Yeah, right.
(12:51):
Beyond
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
my number of papers.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
exactly.
I want research to be a methodto create change rather than the
product.
Yes!
SPEAKER_01 (13:03):
Sorry, I can't help it.
It's a tool.
Research is a tool.
It's right.
These professional developmentprograms that you had been in
and stuff were just like, I'msure they were helpful.
It's not being a hundred percentdisparaging, but just like there
was this limit.
They weren't really speaking tolike your orientation maybe
around what you were trying todo.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (13:23):
Yes.
And I also think that when itcomes to grant writing, there's
a very different focus whenyou're a clinician versus if
you're primarily doing researchAnd I've never been someone who
was 80% or 85% devoted toresearch, partly because I tried
(13:45):
unsuccessfully writing for aK-23 for three years until I
felt like I was really trying tosqueeze myself like a round peg
into a square hole.
And so I've always needed adifferent set of tools to be
able to one, set my clinicalresponsibilities as to really
(14:06):
focus and prioritize my researchinterests.
But also I felt like my mentors,both internally and externally,
were either not doing the typeof research that I wanted to do
or that they were great at whatthey did, but couldn't really
translate that to teach me tohow to do it myself.
(14:27):
Yep.
Amen.
And so I actually found youafter I was promoted to
associate professor because Iwas like, okay, I've gotten
lucky with sponsorship andmentorship so far to get
promoted, but I really need tokick this up a notch in terms of
doing some of the grant writingand the way of thinking about my
(14:50):
career in a more, I don't knowif systematic is the right way,
but in a way that serves me forthe sustainable future and not
just kind of push here, pushthere, kind of do it
sporadically depending on who istelling me to do what.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Yep.
Yeah.
I follow you a hundred percent.
I think, I think what a lot ofpeople experience is like, Ooh,
I got really good adviceclinically.
And then they do that andthey're like, okay, but this
does not work for what I want todo in research.
And then they get, they're like,Ooh, I got really great research
advice.
And then they try that andthey're like, I cannot do this,
my clinic.
Like, and so what they'reconstantly experiencing is this,
like, I guess I'm devoted tothis during this season.
And then, and it just, like yousaid, it's not sustainable.
(15:31):
And you start to realize, like,it's not really a good feeling
to feel like that intention.
Like, oh, if I am doing what I'msupposed to be doing over here
in this part of my job, I amactively not doing what I'm
supposed to be doing in thisother area that I also care
about.
Like, that's not what we'retrying to do.
So I think that's what you'respeaking to as well.
And unfortunately, institution,I mean, institutional culture
(15:53):
is, I think, still really slowto change from this model of,
like you said, 80% research,85%, like basically you don't
have clinical concerns versus orthe opposite.
And I think there are a ofpeople like you that are like,
no, I am in the middle and wantto do real work, like want to
make a difference.
Okay.
So what is a moment and get thatgrant where something really
(16:15):
shifted for you where maybe youhad that thought that you're
like, okay, this really isdifferent from these prior
experiences I had.
And I feel like this is going togive me what I need.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
Yeah, I think I have already been a pretty
self-responsible person where Ididn't need as much of the
coaching in terms of plan Yeah.
(17:05):
having sort of a common projectscope where I think I was
writing grants with sort of acommon project scope, but it was
never elucidated in such a coolway.
But then also this timeline, Ifelt like so much grant writing
advice doesn't account for thetimeline, but I have to account
(17:25):
for the timeline.
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
Yes.
Why do we
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
pack people up like that?
Sorry, go ahead.
I'm like, I need to cover mysalary, the part that I'm not
seeing people.
Yes.
Amen.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
(18:05):
I feel like that is a part whereI probably didn't get enough
feedback or that I wasn't askingfor specific enough feedback to
(18:25):
just focus on the big picture.
But I couldn't tell them thatactually, no, I need you to like
look at the big pictures firstand tell me whether there are
collaborators that I should haveor that I don't instead of
(18:47):
getting into the weeds rightfrom the beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Yes.
Oh, my gosh.
I love this answer.
I'm so glad we get to talk aboutgrants.
Okay, so I agree.
And I think it's interestingbecause you also shared how you
had a multi-year experience withtrying to apply for a K.
And this is the first time thatyou heard what I would say is
grant writing and grants.
grant-getting professionaldevelopment that is focused on
strategy and execution.
(19:11):
And I think we kind of, thetraditional way I think is more
focused on, I don't know, kindof grantsmanship, which does
matter, you know, to somedegree.
But like you said, if you can'tactually get it done, and if you
don't know how to get yourbuilding blocks together, good
ones, like really strong things,then none of that matters
because it all falls apart soquickly.
So things like the CommonProject Scope help you know what
(19:34):
feedback to take.
Like this is so basic.
Like if you know your commonproject scope, then you know
when somebody makes a suggestionthat is outside of that, it
might be a great suggestion, butyou're like, yeah, I'm not going
to do that because that's notwhat I'm doing.
Whereas people always, they'relike, well, how do you know
people have conflicting adviceand what do you take?
I'm like, because you have toget so much more clear first and
(19:54):
then you have to know what youare asking.
Like, what are you askingsomebody for?
And so I really love that youhighlighted that because I think
even that alone starts to changeyour experience of the feedback
loops, because now you have afilter on like what you're using
and why.
I think the work that we doaround like the mentor
optimization and stuff likethat, like kind of turning on
(20:17):
those power analysis skills, Ithink also helps people
understand the differentperspective.
So it's like, oh, this is greatadvice from your perspective,
like you were saying before,right?
But from where I'm trying to go,it actually makes no sense.
These are things that I thinkactually most people need to
explicitly learn and practiceand then see how it comes
together in a grant application.
(20:38):
And then I think, yeah, thefeedback loops.
I love that.
I still use those.
And I don't know if thishappened to you in your K-23 or
not, but like, I think that whatcan happen too is that I do
think we hear Mia a lot.
We hear the advice, like getearly feedback.
Like, don't you, I think youhear that a lot.
Like, oh, you know, don't waittill the last minute, get early
feedback.
But to me, that's not specificenough.
(20:58):
Like on what, so people willkind of, maybe they'll throw
together a specific aims page ormaybe they'll like try to work
really far in advance and puteverything together and then be
like, okay, now I'm just goingto revise it for six months.
Because for six months, you'rechanging your mind about what
you're doing over and overagain.
First of all, that soundsexhausting.
And it's really hard to get to aplace where you feel like you're
(21:20):
building confidence.
Whereas one of the things wetalk about is how critical that
first round of feedback is.
That is what you mentioned,which is, does this idea fly?
Does it float?
Does it make sense?
Unless like why or why not?
And I think what scares peopleabout that is this idea that
like other people can tell youit doesn't make sense and it's
(21:41):
over, but it's not.
It's more like you've got toknow your blind spots.
That's what it is.
It's doing, it's like, you thinkit makes sense totally.
And then somebody can come andtell you like, okay, but what
about this?
And that helps you refine itearly, super early.
So there's a lot more to that,but I just thank you for
sharing, getting into the nittygritty with grants with me.
Cause you know, I love them somuch, but often we end up
(22:03):
talking about purpose mantra andthe spotlight episodes.
It makes me happy to talk aboutgrants.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
Absolutely.
And I feel like in terms of thecommon project scope, what I was
doing was also writing to fitinto grants announcement,
funding announcement, ratherthan deciding what it is that I
want to do and then trying tofind the funding sources to
match that.
Or picking a project becauseit's feasible, but not because
(22:31):
it's exciting.
SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
Yes.
Oh, that's horrible.
Because something's onlyfeasible as long as you have the
willpower to do it.
Right.
Where is your willpower comingfrom when you are not excited
about it and tired?
I'm like, guys, don't do it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
But that's literally some of the mentorship advice
that I've gotten.
Because, you know, say like, ifyou build your K on this larger
grant, then, you know, it'seasier for you to get it.
But then again, this largergrant may not serve the purpose
that Exactly.
So then
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
what are we doing?
(23:34):
feeling first step before yougo.
But often the way that it'soperationalized is what you
said.
It's like, well, this isfeasible and it's easy and it's
this and it's that.
So make this your first step.
But it's like, oh, but thatdoesn't go where I'm trying to
go.
Then what are we doing?
And I think those grants, theyare not as well written.
There's not as much passion.
There's not, it's like, you canfeel the fact that there's a
disconnect between what theperson is really trying to do.
(23:57):
So yeah, I think that's a reallyimportant point that I just love
to reemphasize on this episodethat like, I need people to stop
doing that and And what grantstrategy is for me is to say,
okay, this is my idea.
And maybe I know that it feelstoo big or whatever.
What you want is thoughtpartners who can help you break
it down.
Not people who are going to tellyou to do something else, but
(24:17):
somebody who can be like, oh, Isee exactly what you're trying
to do.
This is how we can pull it back.
This is how we can make thefirst step feasible.
Not, well, I happen to have thislying around, so you might as
well do that and then figure itout.
Do you know, I even had a mentoronce who told me, I cannot
believe this happened.
He was like, well, it doesn'tmatter.
It doesn't really matter whatyou write your K about because
once you get the money, you canjust like do whatever you want.
(24:39):
I mean, as long as you dosomething.
And I was like, what?
He was like, yeah, like nobody'sreally going to check to see
like what you actually did.
So my first thought was you're awhite man.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
Second thought is you're just spending all this
time and energy and training todo something that you are not
actually going to do.
Okay.
All
SPEAKER_01 (25:03):
right.
Mia, Kenya.
you imagine?
I thought this is what they meanabout the audacity.
I was like, I don't, I wanted tobe like, yeah, so I don't do
that.
Like, I don't operate that way.
I don't say I'm going to dothings, planning not to do it.
That is like, I could not evenforce myself to do that.
But it did make me think like,no wonder people are lost, you
(25:25):
know, like no wonder.
And yeah, there's more there,but let's keep going.
So I love how people answer thisquestion.
So I'll just ask you the wayit's written.
What do you have now that youdidn't have before embarking on
the Get That Grant program?
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
I think I have a grant strategy that I did not
have before.
Yes.
But I also think that thecommunity of Get That Grant and
now I'm fully funded, kind ofhaving that community of other
women, you know, clinicianresearchers is also really
(26:00):
empowering to feel like we're inthis together and that I have
have a non-institutionallydependent source of feedback and
help.
And there's politics everywhere,but there are politics where I
am, where sometimes if I alignwith someone else's work, I can
(26:22):
get usurped into their researchagenda rather than doing
something that is really what Iwant to do.
And I also feel like, I thinkfrom my main mentors perspective
like he has done a lot to helpme get to where I am in terms of
my career but he is not someonewho is going to give me the type
(26:44):
of grant writing strategy that Inow have because yeah get that
grant
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
thank you it makes me happy I'm glad you got what
you needed and I want to saythat like that's okay and we
need to get out of the modelthat one person or even your
mentor team is going to doeverything like it's almost like
what going back to being ageriatric and recognizing what
like, we're not going to fixpeople just by seeing them in
clinic and the hospital.
(27:09):
Like it's a multi-pronged kindof approach.
That's what I think about thiscoaching program and the
experiences and everything isthat like, it's not saying
there's no value ininstitutional work or your
mentors, whatever.
It's just saying there's a lotto navigate here.
And if you happen to be kind oflike one of our people, like we
talked about at the beginning,you know, if you have to be
passionate about what you do andyou have a marginalized identity
(27:31):
and like all these things likecome together You care a lot.
It turns out there are a lot ofways you can channel that
productively and thoughtfully toget where you're wanting to go a
little bit easier.
And not all of that.
I think, honestly, most of thatis not necessarily going to be
within and taught within thewalls of your institution.
And so to me, it's just it'sabout the holistic approach.
(27:53):
OK, so we are going to begearing up soonish by the time,
especially this airs, where anew cohort is going to be
starting.
So what advice would you give awoman of color faculty like you
who just signed up?
for GTG and they want to get themost out of it?
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
I would say pace yourself.
Don't worry and don't getoverwhelmed by all of the
content and just kind of do alittle bit at a time.
And I know I certainly didn'tmake all of the coaching
sessions and that's totallyokay.
Listen to them after the fact.
And I also think that having abuddy to check in has been
(28:31):
really helpful as well, giveneverything crazy that's going on
in our world right now, justhaving that community of other
people who are going throughsomething similar is really
helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (28:43):
Yes, I love it.
You heard it from me at firstpace yourself.
Pace yourself.
Thank you so much.
This was so lovely.
And I'm glad we got to talk.
And I just really appreciate yousharing with our larger podcast
community here your experience.
SPEAKER_00 (28:57):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (28:59):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
Take care.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
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(29:20):
Second, I'd love to hear fromyou.
Text us any questions you haveabout this episode or just to
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Kemi Dole and the Womb atwww.kemidole.com slash womb.
(29:40):
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(30:19):
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