Belonging & Unhiding at Work w/ Dr. Beth Kaplan and Ruth Rathblott

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Most of us are hiding something about ourselves and
it's exhausting and it's lonelyand we come up with a narrative
that we think we're the onlyones.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello friends, I am Mel and this is your Work,
friends, and with me is myco-host, francesca.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Hello.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Okay, great introduction.
And today we are so lucky tohave two amazing experts with us
and we're talking aboutbelonging and unhiding at work.
We're going to dive into whatbelonging and unhiding mean,
what they look like in action,why people hide, the true costs
of hiding, how to incorporatestrategies to nurture belonging

(00:57):
and unhiding in the workplace,especially in this climate.
And we're going to leave someroom for some listener Q&A, and
our experts are going to give ustheir bold predictions on the
way out.
So let me introduce theselovely folks.
With us is Ruth Rothblatt.
She is my mentor through theNational Speakers Association,
but she is also an esteemed TEDxspeaker, executive coach,

(01:20):
consultant, bestselling, authorof three books Single-Handedly
Learning to Unhide and EmbraceConnection and Unhide and Seek
Live your Best Life, do yourBest Work.
She also was published in Timeeverybody, so check that out.
She's acknowledged for herexpertise in unlocking
individual and team potentialand just all around rad human

(01:41):
being.
And also with us is Dr BethKaplan.
She is the author of Bravingthe Workplace, which officially
launched today.
Get this book, it's amazing.
She has also been recognized asa must read by the Next Big
Idea Club.
She's a researcher, writer,thought leader.
She's worked with organizationslike Salesforce, the University
of Pennsylvania, georgetownUniversity and the Carnegie

(02:04):
Foundation.
She's also developing agroundbreaking belonging tool
with the University ofPennsylvania, georgetown
University and the CarnegieFoundation.
She's also developing agroundbreaking belonging tool
with the University ofPennsylvania which will measure
belonging and propensity tothrive.
Welcome to you both and thanksfor joining us today.
Thank you, great to be with you.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, thanks for having this.
I'm excited for thisconversation.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, Very awesome.
I'd love to jump in right awayand just learning more about
your personal stories, how yougot started in this work, what
inspired you to start this work.
So tell me a little bit moreabout you guys.
Beth, I'll start with you.

Speaker 4 (02:38):
Sure so excited to be with all of you today.
And, yes, it is launch day, sohow exciting is that?
Thank you so much for cheeringme on.
So, believe it or not, I didn'tset out to study belonging.
However, like most researcherswho studied their own trauma, I
set out to understand why somany people, myself included,
felt like they had to provetheir worth just to exist in

(02:58):
certain spaces, and the more Iresearched, the clearer it
became belonging.
It's always about belonging,and belonging is so complex and
everyone has their owndefinition.
So, for me, my exciting gift tothe world was redefining and
being able to give new tools anda language to something that's
a little bit more complex thanmost of us understand.

(03:21):
So, to me, I look at belongingas the innate desire to be part
of something larger thanourselves, without sacrificing
who we are.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
I like it.
I like the.
Let's not sacrifice ourselvesfor the greater good?
Oh, absolutely.
How about you, Ruth?

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in terms of what Beth
was just saying that resonatesso deeply.
I also did not start out totalk about unhiding in my life.
I probably was the furthestfrom wanting to do that, as
someone who hid for 25 years abig part of myself.
I actually started in thenonprofit space.
I was a nonprofit leader andCEO who was focused on young

(04:00):
people and helping them expressthemselves, helping them think
about college access and collegesuccess, mentoring and
education, and it wasn't until Iwas in a conversation about
actually DEI that I started torealize I had been hiding a huge
part of myself and I had notshared that with the world.

(04:22):
I hadn't shared it with myself,so I had been.
I was born with a disability.
I hadn't shared it with myself,so I had been.
I was born with a disability.
I was born with a limbdifference and for your
listeners that means I was bornmissing my left hand, part of my
left hand, and when I was 13, Istarted tucking it in my pocket
.
When you go off to a new highschool, I think some of us have
those flashes of what highschool can feel like, where it's

(04:45):
oh, I have to fit in.
Do I make friends?
Am I going to get along withpeople?
Who am I going to sit with atlunch?
Like all those feelings of highschool.
And I started hiding at thattime and didn't realize the
impact it was having on how Iwas showing up, how I was
connecting with people, anddidn't even know there was a
tool or a conversation or wordthat could help unhide.

(05:10):
And so that's where I've spentthe last few years really
delving into that research,delving into what was the
process of unhiding and thenfinding out honestly, beth and
Mel and Francesca, that most ofus are hiding something about
ourselves, and it's exhaustingand it's lonely and we come up
with a narrative that we thinkwe're the only ones.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, I don't think we are.
I think that's, ruth I, why Ilove what you're doing so much,
because you can't have belongingwithout unhiding yourself too.
So I'm so excited to talk abouthow these things align together
.
And yeah, I think we've all canrelate to that feeling of not
belonging through high schoolfor sure, but some I used to

(05:52):
joke often that corporateenvironments can often feel like
high school, where there arecertainly cliques or in groups
and out groups and navigatingpolitical landmines and then,
for various reasons, to fit intothose groups, you change
yourself.
I tried to hide my New Englandaccent, but someone called out
the R that I add on idea, justlittle things like that.

(06:13):
I think we all do things to tryto hide who we are.
But today is the purpose oftoday is like how do we get
people comfortable with thinkingabout belonging differently and
what that could look like andhow to unhide themselves?
So I appreciate it.
I'm going to hand it over toFrancesca.
She's going to dive into how wedefine it.
So thanks.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
I think both of these topics are so important in and
of themselves, and I know, beth,you started by talking about
how belonging is this innatedesire to be something or to be
part of something bigger thanourselves, without sacrificing
ourselves, yes, which I think isyour contribution there is

(06:50):
there without sacrificingourselves, which is critical,
right.
And then I think the unhidingpiece, too, I'm curious about
just to ground ourselves on howboth of these things show up at
work, the belonging piece andthe unhiding piece.
And, beth, I guess we're takingyour definition.
Is there anything in additionto your core definition about
how this shows up at work?

Speaker 4 (07:09):
Yeah, there's a lot to say here, and what's really
most interesting and probablymost confusing to people is they
think the opposite of belongingis exclusion.
That's one of the biggestmisconceptions in the workplace,
when in reality, the oppositeof belonging is fitting in.
Misconceptions in the workplacewhen in reality the opposite of
belonging is fitting in.
And why I believe that with somuch passion is because fitting

(07:33):
in means giving up a part ofyourself to be part of something
else.
Where belonging doesn't requireyou to give up who you are, it
means being who you are right.
A lot of us in the workplace inparticular will hide.
A lot of us in the workplace inparticular will hide, as we
know, different parts.
They may mask or they may coveror flat out just hide, and we
think it's going to make us feellike we belong harder, and

(07:54):
that's just not true.
It never ends well.
I think Ruth's story is sobrilliant and so powerful
because, a it's real, b all ofus can relate to something.
And C we understand it right.

(08:16):
So I'm sure, ruth, for you allof this is advanced common sense
, because you've been livingwith it forever.
And for listeners out there,there's probably something that
you feel that you're hiding aswell, or you're trying so hard
to fit in that you'resacrificing what makes you, and
that's going to take a toll.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
Ruth, are you seeing that too, as you're looking at
like on hiding at work too?
How are you seeing this come tofruition for people?

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, I think it's what and, beth, you started it
so perfectly in terms of thatsacrificing yourself part,
because that's where it shows up.
And I think the other piecethat, francesca, you were
intimating also is that need tobe in corporate.
And how is it, how are youfitting in?
Because that's a piece thatwe're told often like we want
you to be a good culture fit, wewant you to fit in.

(08:59):
So that means sometimessacrificing a piece of yourself,
right, or downplaying a pieceof yourself or covering a piece
of yourself, and for some itactually means to what you said,
beth.
It means hiding part ofyourself, and that comes from we
all have a need to want to beaccepted right.
There's the acceptance piece tothis, and I think about it in

(09:20):
terms of why I look at.
What's the underlying piece ofthat?
It comes from a fear ofrejection, a fear of judgment, a
fear of Really.
I had a friend recently whosaid to me I haven't shared part
of my health diagnosis out loudbecause I'm afraid of being
pitied.
So there's that fear there too.

(09:40):
A lot of this is wrapped up inshame, this idea of if I share
this part of myself, someonewill reject me, someone will
judge me.
Someone won't give me apromotion because of it.
I won't be seen as a leader.
I've had women even in 2025,who don't share that they have
kids at work because they'reafraid of someone saying they're

(10:02):
into their motherhood, theycare more about their kids.
They're not really on track forpromotion.
So I'm not going to share thatpart.
And that's sacrificing yourself.
That is absolutely sacrificingyourself to fit in, to go home.
So I do.
I think about it, how it showsup.
I think the other piece I wouldadd on is in the workplace.
Many of us were taught a veryold school mentality around

(10:25):
leadership and a frameworkaround leadership.
We were taught that you're notsupposed to share things about
yourself.
You're supposed to keep peopleat arm's length.
You're supposed to be, not bevulnerable and not share
challenges.
You're supposed to be strong,and the definition of strong was
the idea of a mask of armoraround yourself.
And so that plays in, becausethen that's how our employees

(10:50):
see us.
So then they can't makemistakes, either because they're
afraid oh, I'm going to be, I'mgoing to upset them or I'm not
going to.
I need to be perfect.
There's a full affection pieceto unhiding yeah, oh go ahead,
beth, sorry, no, I was justthinking about you.

Speaker 4 (11:03):
made me think, ruth, about duck syndrome.
Right, that's when you start tosee certain things evolve like
duck syndrome, where people makeit look so effortless and then
they're peddling their littlefeet so hard to keep up in the
name of resilience at times orfitting in or all the things,
and we're all hardwired for deephuman connection, but there's
something about us that makes usfeel unworthy of it.

(11:25):
That seems to feel like theuniversal work experience these
days.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
Which is totally nuts , because I think about the
archetype of leadership, ruth,that you were talking about, and
what it takes to get there,beth, in terms of the duck
syndrome, and it feels likewe've all grown up in this
archetype of the sports leader,the coach or the war hero.
Right, you have to beShackleton or you have to be the
freaking coach from Miracle onIce.

(11:50):
It's one of these two.
And when you unpack any of thosethings.
Yes, they demonstrated thesecertain behaviors, but then,
behind the scenes, they weremasking shit too, and so this is
all built on a farce from Get.

Speaker 4 (12:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the thing is you saidsomething that caught my
attention.
We would like to mirror theseperformance coaches, but here's
the thing Performance coachesare invested in their athletes'
health and their well-being.
Where they'll stop you ifyou're overdoing it or you're
going to burn yourself out.
Workplace rewards it.
The more sweat and tears youput into it, you're getting

(12:25):
promoted, girl.
And the thing is it makes uswant to work harder and we also
think that our sacrifice willmake us belong harder, and
that's why sacrificial belongingmakes sense to most people.
It's giving up a part ofyourself, consciously or
subconsciously, for the greatergood and, spoiler alert, it
never works.
Never.

(12:45):
It doesn't make you feel anybetter.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
No.
And to add on to that too, Ithink there's a piece around.
A symptom of it is alsooverachieving right or
overcompensating.
This need to keep the duck feetgoing, or sometimes even to
loud yourself with in terms ofthis is how much I'm doing Like
this is how much I'm constantlyoverachieving or
overcompensating so that I getahead, so that nobody will look

(13:09):
at that other part of myselfthat I'm hiding in some ways,
and also then I don't have toshare it with anyone, I can
overcompensate for it and it'sexhausting when you think about

(13:37):
psychological safety and itsrole in nurturing belonging or
creating spaces where people canunhide.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
What does that?
What does good psychologicalsafety look like in the
workplace?

Speaker 4 (13:47):
to support it it's a good question.
I think psychological safety isthe feeling of being safe, no
matter what environment you areto be able to speak up to speak
your truth, to speak truth topower, and I think it's all the
things.
The interesting thing is, inorder to have a strong sense of
belonging, psychological safetyneeds to be table stakes.

(14:10):
It doesn't mean you'llnecessarily have that sense of
belonging or maybe thisaspirational sense of belonging
that you may be searching for,but you really can't go through
the workplace feeling thatbelonging uncertainty, for
example which is the silentkiller and feel safe at the same
time.
Those thoughts don't existtogether and most psychological

(14:31):
safety is based on a positive.
So when you're starting with anegative and you're trying to
combat it with negative forces,like sacrifice or any thwarted
feelings in general, it's goingto end badly, yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's funny when I speak, I often ask people, the
organizer, I say what doessuccess look like?
When I finish the speech, whatwill?

Speaker 4 (14:53):
it look like.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
They say oh, there's an awareness raised that people
will feel like they're digginginto themselves but also their
coworkers.
And then one organizer said tome it would be great if everyone
could unhide something.
And I said absolutely not.
And she said what do you mean?
I said I'm not trying to createa Jerry Springer viral moment

(15:16):
here with people.
That's not the goal.
I want people to feel safe.
I said the only way that I willeven consider doing this is if
the leader, the CEO, goes first.
And the organizer said that'snever going to happen.
I said I know, so why would weexpect others to unhide if it's

(15:36):
not safe?
Because I really spend a lot oftime in my space thinking about
how was I as a leader, when didI create that psychological
safety for others?
When did I model it myself interms of creating that space?
Because it is about leadersgoing first in terms of creating
psychological safety, beingvulnerable, creating that safe
place.
And I think the thing that Isorry I would just add on to

(16:01):
this is the idea of sometimes wehide and it keeps people
feeling comfortable and safe.
Also, there is a payoff tohiding in terms of creating
safety and psychological safetyfor others, sometimes because
maybe it's too much, and so Ithink about it on both ends.
Why do we hide?
And then, how are those aroundus?

(16:21):
How are we creating that safe,comfortable space for them?

Speaker 4 (16:25):
Absolutely.
I'm going to chime in becausewe do those things on purpose,
because the hiding sometimesfeels better than facing
something head on that may feelreally uncomfortable.
I talk about this a lot in thebook about the different
disorders that are related tothe workplace, and one of them
happens to be avoidance disorder, and I would raise my hand and

(16:45):
tell you that I'm amongst theworst, in fact, in a way that
makes every leader that I'veever had feel better about me.
There's sometimes when I've hadleaders in the past I haven't
maybe talked to them for a monthor so and a one-on-one will
come up and I'm like there'sjust too much to say and they're
so busy.
So I'll go to them and I'llcancel and I'll be like I don't
have that much and you're busy,they love it.

(17:07):
It's almost like it's addictive.
The last leader I had that Isaid that and I did that with
said to me you, just you're thebest.
I can't understand how I got solucky and, truthfully, what I
had to force myself to the nexttime was to let her know that I
was avoiding her and it wasincredibly uncomfortable because

(17:27):
she did nothing to warrant it.
I need to also make that veryclear it was on me.
It was a story I was tellingmyself that she was too busy,
that I wasn't as important, thatshe had bigger fish to fry.
I could keep going and going,but the reality of the situation
is that I was not comfortablecommunicating with her because
so much time kept passing.
So I'm sure there's otherpeople out there that are

(17:51):
listening.
That may get that very well and, like I said, it's often
rewarded because you're givingtime back in someone's mind.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
I think we've all been there, right when we're
like, I just don't want tobother them, so I'm not going to
ask.
I'll suffer in silence overhere it's fine, but death by a
million, it's fine where thehell am I going with this Is

(18:25):
where is the line Like?

Speaker 3 (18:26):
if it's psychological safety, like a bell curve right
when you want to create as muchsafety for people to feel like
they're comfortable, but not toomuch safety where they're too
comfortable.
Does this make sense?

Speaker 4 (18:36):
Yes, it does, because there's comfort, and then
there's also self-awareness.
A lot of times people ask methat all the time, is it safe to
bring your authentic self towork?
Yes, but you should not be inspots that you shouldn't be
loyal, in spots that your braincan't get you out of.
And it's the same thing withpsychological safety.
Knowing and being self-awarehas to accompany it.

(18:58):
It really does.
There's things that are justnot appropriate, and those are
typically not necessarilyrelated to your identity.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Or necessarily right for the workplace.
That's right, yeah, when youthink about a professional
environment versus a personalenvironment.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
Ruth, do you feel like you could bring your
authentic self to work?

Speaker 1 (19:18):
No, and I you know what.
I don't even actually alwaysadvise it quite yet, because I
think that we're not totally setup for it.
I think that sometimes in theworkplace we don't have the
coaches and the supports and theleaders who are willing to go
first and the support that itrequires, because what it may
mean to bring my authentic selfto work if I'm someone and maybe

(19:39):
it's one of your listeners aswell is bringing my depression
forward right.
That authentic self.
It may mean the caretakingresponsibilities that I have at
home, that I'm afraid to tellsomebody that because somebody
is going to say, oh, you knowwhat, you're more interested in
taking care of your child oryour parent or your child or

(20:00):
somebody in your life, and soI'm not totally convinced that
we're there yet.
I would love that to be theNorth Star, where we could bring
our best selves to work,because that's what I'm invested
in is how do we bring our bestselves to work?
I will say, even with thatthough there's a caveat to me in
terms of my work that I talkabout strategic hiding that

(20:20):
sometimes feels okay to hidepart of yourself because it's
not advantageous to whetheryou're in a lawsuit or you're in
a negotiation or you're insomething that bringing your
authentic self would damage orhurt you in terms of that space.
So I think about it asstrategic hiding.
How do we allow for ourselvesto discern when we unhide, when

(20:45):
we create that space forourselves?
Is it a safe environment?
I was at a speed dating thingrecently and I was thinking
about my hand and did it feelsafe to share it with people in
a seven minute cycle whereyou're going around and checking
in.
Did it feel safe in that moment?
It's about having agency, aboutwhen do we choose to unhide,

(21:05):
when do we choose to hide.
So I get the choice of when doI share that out?
And I think that's the samewith any aspect, whether it's we
hide parts of our past, whetherit's we hide parts of our
present, or even I've had peopleshare that they hide parts of
their dreams and aspirations.
So it's that when do we shareit so that we can feel supported

(21:26):
?
That's when I think aboutspreading, and how is it holding
us back?
What are some of?

Speaker 2 (21:30):
the like signals that someone can look for or kind of
pay attention for to or for inorder to make those split
decision thing, split decisionsaround whether it's safe to
unhide, or what does that looklike for both of you?

Speaker 4 (21:50):
That's a really great question.
So I, through the conversation,I was thinking about one of the
types of belonging which iscalled dissimulated belonging,
and it's confusing to people.
Truthfully, dissimulatedbelonging is when you do feel a
sense of belonging, but maybenot in the context you're in.
Let's just say that Ruth is aphenomenal employee, but she's
just not the corporatecheerleader and, by the way, she

(22:13):
doesn't want to be and she'shappy.
But we all know the workplacewants corporate cheerleaders.
We want everyone rolling outthe drink cart for happy hour
and we want everyone to be ableto go after work.
After you've just spent ninehours with your nearest and
dearest and spend another fivehours with them, and there's
some people that get theirpurpose outside of work, which
sounds blasphemous to some of us.
So dissimulated belonging is agreat example of people that are

(22:36):
very happy with their sense ofbelonging, right, and they may
just need to get out of therebecause why not?
But it's never acceptable tosay that right.
I hear time and time again therewas a work event and I need to
go work out after work, but Ilied and I said I have to get
home because my commute is toolong and I'm going to pick up
work when I get home and theneveryone's like oh, that makes

(22:58):
sense.
And why should we have to hidethe fact that we don't
necessarily want to be aworkhorse, because that's what
gets us promoted, or to be seenbetter in people's eyes.
It's really sad when the stateof the world is that that is a
factor in promotion.
I know you both know this verywell.

(23:19):
I think what we used to say inthe early 2000s which makes me
cringe every time is we would beat the promotion table with I
don't know, it might've beenlike a 50 bucks.
Then now it's two bucks or fourbucks and we'd be like can you
get a drink with him?
Guys, remember that one ordissimulated belongers.
They have a sense of belonging.
It's just not in your workplaceand, by the way, they don't

(23:41):
feel bad about it.
It's usually everyone aroundthem and that's yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
I've also had the.
They're accused of not reallybeing in it.
If they don't go to the happyhour, or it's like this.
It's a, and then it becomes aculture fit issue.
Oh, they don't really want it.

Speaker 4 (23:55):
Some people also don't want to hang with their
boss after work.
Yeah, boss is not.
It's never the most comfortablesituation and it doesn't matter
how close you are, becausesometimes that's even harder in
that right.
So I think that's one greatexample of hiding that takes
place.
That's appropriate, becausewe're not all built the same and
we all get differentmotivations, and most of us

(24:18):
don't like to share when it'snot work that it's their
motivating factor.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, sometimes bosses don't want to go to the
happy hour.
Oh yeah, so I totallyunderstand that, and sometimes
they do, and then they're likenobody wants me here.
But, I think the other piece tosome of this is, as leaders and
managers, we focus a lot onperformance.
We focus on productivity andsometimes we forget about people

(24:43):
Right, and we make a lot ofassumptions about behavior
rather than checking in, and soI'm a big proponent of what do
those pause check-ins look like,right, when you first sit down
with someone with your fullagenda, how do you create space
to find out how they are, howyou can support them?
How do you slow it down alittle bit?
Because I think again, Isometimes I own my leadership

(25:12):
style for years.
How do we slow it down a littlebit so that we can have the
conversation about how are youdoing?
How can I support you?
What's going on?
I'm noticing some things in yourwork, just so people have a
space, a safe space, to be ableto talk about it, and that it's
consistent, because there'sdefinitely research out there.
That's talking aboutconsistency, and there's also
research about I think I guessthe first piece to all of this
Francesca and Mel and Beth isnaming it right.

(25:33):
So we have to be able to namethat.
Hiding is universal.
Most of us are doing it at somepoint.
What does it look like?
How is it holding you back?
Deloitte did a study 60% ofpeople are hiding.
Randstadt, the HR survey, did asurvey recently that said that
68% of Gen Z the ones that haveall the apps and all the social

(25:54):
media that we think oh, they'reout there all the time they talk
about 68% of them are hidingand they don't trust their
leaders to unhide too, so theyjust keep their noses down in
their work and they're like I'llget through it.
That is not existence, that isnot freedom, that is not joy,
that is not belonging.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
It's got to be really bad for business too, when you
think about it, right, becausewhat are you missing out on by
not nurturing these types ofenvironments?
I'm going to hand it over toFrancesca to talk about that,
because I'd love to hear aboutthe cost.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yeah, I'm going to start, I'm going to try to say I
want to separate these twobecause I'm curious if there is
a difference in the cost.
And I'm going to start, ruth,with you, without a hiding piece
of it what is the cost ofhiding at work?
And you can take that from theemployee, from the org, from the
manager.
What's the cost?

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, I think there's a personal cost and I think
there's a professional cost.
I like to split them.
The personal cost is it'sexhausting.
It takes a toll on our mentaland our physical health.
That is a big piece of it.
It is lonely in terms of youthink you're the only one, so
you sit there and you're like,oh, nobody's going to understand
this.
So there's this loneliness,isolation piece to it.

(27:00):
And then there's also feelingdisconnected.
That's that belonging piecethat I think Beth talks about
and I want to even hear more anddig into that piece.
So there's that personal piece.
And then from a professionalpiece, when we're hiding, we
don't feel as engaged right Ourcompany, even as leaders, we're
not as engaged.
We don't feel the same sense ofloyalty to the company that

(27:21):
we're working for.
The retention suffers.
That's a big piece of whenyou're hiding.
And then the last piece, which Ithink is probably one of the
most critical pieces in terms ofthe bottom line of any business
, is innovation.
Innovation suffers when you areso sitting there worried about
how much if somebody finds outthis thing about me, or wow, I

(27:43):
didn't go to the right school,or my education's not high
enough, or my finances aren'twhat they're supposed to be, or
my relationship status.
It is preoccupying your mindthat you don't get a chance to
be as innovative and as creativeas you need to be, and I can
tell you, as someone who wasborn with a difference, I spent
my life being creative, but whenI hid that, that got taken away

(28:06):
because I was so spent so muchtime in that other space of
hiding, and so that retention,that engagement and that
innovation are lacking, and evenour leadership then lacks
because we don't feel connectedto our teams.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
Yeah, and those are big costs and all things that
are absolutely needed, right,yeah?

Speaker 4 (28:26):
So I can tell you that employee engagement costs
the US anywhere between $450 and$550 billion annually.
That's pretty sad and crazy.
And if we want to dive a littledeeper, when it's loneliness
driven or stress related inparticular, it costs $154
billion annually arestress-related in particular, it

(28:48):
costs $154 billion annually.
That's just unbelievable.
It feels like the things we'reputting in place are really
killing a fly with a hammer.
There's nothing more to that,and a lot of the times these
things could be fixed with justsimple care.
That's what's scary.
Employees that feel excluded are50% more likely to leave than
those who feel a strong sense ofbelonging.
Okay, so we think about this.

(29:09):
We think of belonginguncertainty, which I always call
the silent killer, which leadsto presenteeism, where employees
are physically present, they'reall mentally checked out, and
there's so many varieties ofdisengagement when care costs us
very little and I always say topeople that feel like unhiding
or belonging is a bit hokierbecause it has anything to do

(29:29):
with emotions Then if you don'twant to, if you want to look at
it in a bottom lines numberskind of game, then look at the
disengagement and look how muchit's costing you.
We used to say something likeit costs one to two times a
person's salary and now they'reestimating it's four times.
Oh wow, because it goes beyondthe onboarding and the retention
, the recruiting and thedifferent efforts.

(29:51):
It cycles back to the top levelvision and problems the
company's face.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
All those like the 2x , the 3x, the 4x numbers.
I think what's interestingabout those is one is that
scales right.
It scales from individualcontributor up to exact right
and I believe me, I've metdisengaged C-level folks.
This isn't just a manager or afrontline person, this is all
the way to the top, which ismassive.
The other thing I'm curiousabout, too, is especially when

(30:19):
you have a leader who'sdisengaged, a leader that
doesn't feel like they belong,like that's got to cast a shadow
in an organization.
I just I can't.
I cannot believe that you couldhave a disengaged leader or
someone that doesn't feel likethey belong or someone that
feels like they're hiding, yetthey're creating an organization
that has that.

Speaker 4 (30:38):
Do you see that?
Yeah, it's in the research thatI've done.
What happens to the leader, andI will say this.
So psychological safety doesfocus around the fact that the
leader needs to build thatsafety, but what happens when
the leader needs to build it forthemselves?
I often feel like the workplacedemands so much of leaders, and
what about their safety?
That being said, I know thatthe leaders are mostly causing

(31:01):
the harm, so I'm not naive inthat sense.
But when leaders themselvesdon't feel a sense of belonging,
it permeates in so manydifferent ways, including a lot
of armchair therapy.
That happens with yoursubordinates who don't know what
they're doing.
And since people look to theirleaders in times of change, yes,
it's killing the innovationthat Ruth talked about but it's
also can be really soul crushingbecause, unfortunately, people

(31:25):
think their leaders are betterthan them.
They look to their leaders toknow more than them, and that's
just not always the case.
That's why, in truthfulness, wetalked about leadership training
.
But I'll tell you, I'm one ofthose people that never received
leadership training until I waslike 10 to 15 years.
In.
Leaders are typically made, notborn, that way, and so most of

(31:46):
us were promoted because we werejust really good at our jobs.
So there's this unfair standard, and now, especially, most
workplaces expect their leadersto have an element of psychology
that we've never been trainedfor.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
Yeah, nor do we have time for right.
It's Mel and I are pulling thelongitudinal data on, like the
amount of direct reportsmanagers have right now has
almost doubled Like you havemore to do.
You have more resources or moredirect reports, more on your
plate, and now, all of a sudden,you need to be a therapist and

(32:20):
maybe you went through managertraining and you're not getting
leadership training until you'rea VP or an SVP or an EVP, so
everyone in between is likefighting for themselves,
absolutely.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
And the workforce is changing too.
In terms of newer to theworkforce, there is a level of
transparency that they'redemanding from leadership in a
very interesting and intense way, really political correct here.
That's a piece of it.
And then also, you have, forthe first time, one of the
blessings of what came out ofCOVID is the opportunity to talk

(32:53):
about mental health for thefirst time, especially as
leaders, and honestly evenowning it for themselves, right,
and being able to talk about it.
And yet how?
To your point, leaders arerequired to do a lot right now
and employees are demanding, andyet we have this old, this way
that we were trained, if we didget training, or even if we just

(33:13):
watched leaders ahead of us.
In terms of that osmosis,training of this is the way
leaders are supposed to be, andit hasn't caught up in terms of
how and that's why, where Ispend my time, even like you,
beth, thinking about graduateschools, right, or even where
that college is thinking aboutwhat do leaders need and what
are they going to need in termsof this work?

Speaker 3 (33:33):
And organizationally, how do we set up systems that
they can actually operate withintoo?
It's like the two differentcomponents of it for sure, right
.

Speaker 4 (33:40):
Think about all the return to work, all the things
that leaders have to deal with.
If you're a leader who worksfrom home and then you have
because you're in a remoteoffice, then you have to enforce
other people Right After.
You've just talked about thefact of how great it is to have
no commute or the things thatyou can get done or how you're
supplementing that time withthings that are healthy for you,
and then you have to take thataway from others.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
It's pretty taxing things that are healthy for you
and then you have to take thataway from others.
It's pretty taxing.
It's funny when we were comingout of COVID we had a friend
share a story with us like thecatalyst, as we started to talk
about building this podcast,which the first episode idea
officially was something likeGucci sweaters and lake house
dreams, because I think ourfriend mentioned they were in an
all handshands meeting aboutreturning to office while the

(34:25):
leader was in their second lakehouse talking about being at
their lake house wearing a veryexpensive Gucci sweater and just
not thinking about the impacton folks with what that does for
their team.
Love to hear what you can do asan individual, if, if you're a

(35:05):
leader, or really what orgsshould be doing.
So we talked a little bit aboutindividual right and what it
means to bring your authenticself and how you can evaluate
that.
But what other advice would yougive to individuals here who
are struggling with hiding orstruggling with belonging?
What advice would you give orstrategies to those individuals?

(35:27):
Ruth, you want to go first.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
No, you can go first.
I definitely have a framework,so I'm ready for that.

Speaker 4 (35:33):
So if we're talking about individuals, I like to say
that you control the narrative.
So everyone wants one-on-onetime with their leaders.
Build the agenda, make surethat you're taking control of
that.
I often say the exact samething to leaders is that's your
employees' time with you.
So, while you may come into themeeting with at least like 15

(35:55):
checklist items you need to dobecause you need to report to
someone else that's their timewith you.
Your job in that meeting is tomeet them where they're at.
The number one thing that ouremployees want from leaders is
care.
Right, it's not, I wish.
Every single time I hear this,people are like oh trust, oh
respect, and it's always care.

(36:15):
And care has a really largespectrum thoughtfulness, candor,
advocacy.
There's so many components toit.
And when you tell, when you asan individual go to your manager
and you're able to have aconversation with them about
what it means to be successfulin role, it also is a wake-up
call for them to say what issuccessful as a leader, right,

(36:38):
how are people going to want tofollow me?
So I always say to individualsis to build the agenda and to
make sure that your leaders aresticking with it.
At the same time, leaders, whenyou're opening up your calls
with people, the first thing onyour mouth should be what can I
do for you?
What interference can I remove?
And as you walk through thatagenda with them, start to also

(37:00):
remember what's important tothat person.
You need to get to know themoutside of this little Zoom box
here and you need to be able toknow what's important.
And that may be.
You may be thinking to yourselfI don't know what they do on
the weekends and I don't knowwhat's important to them, but
that's not what I mean.
What values do they have?
What do they like about theirjobs?
And make sure at all costs thatyou do something that helps

(37:21):
light them up.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
Really huge.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
You want to always make sure that you're doing
things that show them that youknow who they are, and that's
really one of the biggest thingsthat helps change our sense of
longing in the workplace.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Ruth, yeah, and I think where Beth and I
definitely overlap is that it'sa choice, right.
It's a powerful choice that youget to make, and I think that
holds true with unhiding as well.
And for me there's a four-stepframework that I created in
whether it's an individual, or Iwas just meeting with someone
who inherited a really toxicquote, unquote team and I said

(37:58):
try this framework.
And so the first step isacknowledging it, right Only,
like creating a space ofawareness, like whether it's
again as an individual orwhether it's a leader or whether
it's managing a team.
It's the idea of acknowledgewhat's happening, like create
awareness, and I, you can dothat through journaling, you can
do that through therapy,through meditation, through just

(38:21):
taking a silent moment to be alittle bit what I call
self-centered, right, likecentering on yourself and think
about that space.
The second piece to it isinviting someone in, and I
imagine when I say that secondstep, somebody immediately comes
to your mind, right, somebody,whether it's an HR leader,
whether it's your manager,whether it's a coworker, whether

(38:42):
it's a friend, to say, hey,here's what's happening.
When that person came to mewith a toxic work environment, I
said what's beautiful aboutwhat you're doing is you're
inviting each person inone-on-one, not making this a
group, collective thing, butstarting to talk about
individual behavior, talkingabout inviting them in.
Here's what I'm seeing, samewith hiding how am I showing up?

(39:05):
What am I holding back?
How is hiding, holding me backand inviting that one person in
that you can share that with?
I imagine the people I thinkabout as the cheat sheet is
somebody who shows empathy,somebody who asks questions with
kindness and curiosity, someonewho's willing to reveal a
little bit about themselves andshare their own journey with you

(39:27):
, someone who asks questions.
That's the person I'd belooking for in that second step.
The third step, after you'veacknowledged it and you've
invited someone in, is about howdo you then build community?
And we've all seen thoseemployee resource groups or
business resource groups.
They actually can If you stepback.

(39:47):
They have a lot of powerbecause there's a shared
experience in terms of peoplewho have gone through them.
There you can find meetups andcommunity organizations, finding
spaces where you don't feel soalone in this.
These steps are small, butthey're powerful.
And then the fourth step isscaring out your own journey so

(40:08):
that somebody else can seethemselves in you and they can
start on their own journey ofunhiding.
They can start on their ownjourney.
That same leader who said Ihave this toxic work environment
, start on their own journey.
That same leader who said Ihave this toxic work environment
.
I said, once you've gottenthrough a lot of it and gotten
your team to the place they needto be, I can imagine and I

(40:28):
would probably bet money on this, and I don't bet money easily
but that there is another teamwithin the organization that
could use what you just did totheir benefit in terms of
creating their team andimproving their team.
So, sharing out that story sothat somebody else can learn and
start their own journey, andmapping it out, that's where I
think about unhiding.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
I think that's really powerful.
And what you were just sharingactually made me think of Beth
One identifying the one personto share it with.
So I love Ruth like that.
How do you identify that person?
What are the markers?
But then, beth, it made methink of your story with your
boss.
What, just bringing it back tothat personal story, what gave
you the courage to finally share, what made it safe for you the

(41:10):
avoidance.

Speaker 4 (41:11):
For me, what made it safe was probably less to do
about her and more to do aboutme.
I was just going, I was goingout of my mind.
I I'm so tired of being sonervous before every one-on-one,
and I did wind up telling herthat and she was like me.
I'm the one who makes younervous, and we had a great

(41:32):
conversation around it.
I'm like you make everyonenervous.
She's like you've got thickskin and at the same time, maybe
I didn't.
When it comes to her, and whatshe had told me which was really
wonderful and showed me care,maybe not in the direction she
was meaning it was that she seesme as a person that she wants
to build thicker, even thickerskin with.

(41:53):
So every single time I go tohide, she's going to stop me.
So every single time I go tohide, she's going to stop me.
And it's not because she wantsto control me.
It's because she really wantsme to be a better version of
myself, because I told her Ineed to be a better version.
So she's not controlling me ormaking me be something I'm not.
She's, in fact, bringing out abetter part of me and let's be

(42:14):
honest, isn't that why we allgot into leadership?
Because you want to coach andgrow people?
I did for the money, yeah,because you love filling out a
million forms.
That's right.
It just does it for you, butthat's it, and I think what was
really fascinating is thatchanged our entire dynamic.
It really did.

(42:36):
I think that most peopleweren't very honest with her and
they were just yesing her and Ithink, out of everyone I've
ever met, she's the last personyou do that with and most of our
leaders don't want to be.
Yes, they really do wanthonesty from people, but her
entire conversation that's justnot always easy to do.
Yeah, Scary.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
The one thing I have always thought about as a leader
is it's really thoseone-on-ones are so important and
when you start moving them orcanceling them, or if somebody
starts canceling them with me,that's like a non-negotiable
Like we are.
This is your time, this issacred time, Because I think

(43:12):
that in and of itself shows carejust to keep those consistent
and keep those on the calendar.
So it's meaningful to you asthe leader as well.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
Oh yeah, consistency is care.
That's absolutely true.
Honestly, one of my best andbrightest I've ever had the
fortune of leading said that tome.
He said you give me suchanxiety because you move
meetings.
And I know that you have validreasons and I thought to myself
oh my goodness, an excuse, nomatter how many, how valid, is a

(43:42):
bad book.
And I've never moved thatperson's one-on-one, and it's
been years and years and, by theway, we still talk about it.
He still can't believe what theimpact had and as a leader, I
had no idea.
So, leaders, if you're outthere listening, don't change

(44:04):
your one-on-one times as much asyou can keep them consistent.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
It means the world to people, yeah, and if you put
your hand up to say I just needfive minutes, go find the person
after the five minutes so thatthey can know that you do want
to see them and care about findthem.
Yeah, because I think we also.
I think what you're alsotouching on, beth, is especially
in the example you gave issometimes we have that
unreliable narrator in our headright that tells us that this
person is this or I'm this tothem, or like we don't, and we

(44:29):
don't pause to check it out.
We don't stop and get theactual this is a tough one
actual, accurate information.
Yes, I didn't add another A onthere, but that's a piece of it
is this unreliable narrator whois giving us false information,
sometimes trying to keep us safebecause, oh, maybe that boss
was super scary at times ormaybe you know what you weren't

(44:50):
ready for a meeting, but it'sthe idea of yeah, how do we
check out that unreliablenarrator?

Speaker 2 (44:56):
I always ask my coaching clients to ask
themselves what evidence do Ihave to show this is true?
What evidence do you have?
And often when they pause tothink about that, they're like
you know what?
I really don't have evidence toprove that.
So it's such a just even thatone question can help with that.
I'd love to move to likeorganization-wide, because

(45:17):
leaders will wait for the thelast because they get dumped on
everything.
So, from an org standpointbecause I do think it starts at
the org level, they set the toneright.
When you think about howorganizations can implement
either strategies or policy,workplace policies around, how
we work around here, what aresome things that they can do to

(45:38):
better foster environments wherepeople have greater belonging
or can feel safe to unhide.
What does that look like?
Or what have you seen?
That's good.

Speaker 4 (45:48):
I would take a look at taking all the unwritten
rules and writing them down.
It's one of the first things Isay.
It's the easiest low-hangingfruit Things like PTO.
It's the easiest low-hangingfruit Things like PTO, which is
meant to de-stress people,stresses them out terribly.
Oh, my goodness, I had threeweeks before, but the second I
take more than one week.
Someone jumps all over me.
There's so many things thatjust need a bit of clarification

(46:12):
, because clear is kind.
So all the unwritten rules andall the social contracts start
breaking them and writing themdown.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
And I think I would add on to it unwritten rules and
all the social contracts, startbreaking them and writing them
down, and I think I would add onto it, I guess, the thing that
as you're talking about likeorganizations, though, are
people right.
So it's like leader.
I do look at leaders and I dothink about leadership, and I
think it's a two-way street.
If leaders are willing, ifwe're asking leaders to be
vulnerable and do all thesethings, employees have to meet
us also halfway, right, like ithas to be.
It's a two way street, and I do.

(46:42):
I think that there's a spacearound training.
I do think that there's a space,like it's the dirty little
secret that even most CEOs Iknow have executive coaches.
Right, there's a reason for it,and yet they don't talk about
it, because it's like the ideathat, oh, you're weak if you
have that, or you don't knowwhat you're doing, and yet why

(47:05):
is it such a dirty little secret?
Why are people hiding it?
Like it's that space of this is.
Actually it's like people whogo to therapy being like, oh, I
don't want to talk about goingto therapy, it actually makes
you stronger.
So we can start to normalizeleadership, executive coaching
and training and what thosepieces and starting with people.
That's why going back tocolleges and education around

(47:25):
leadership is so important,because that's that informs the
organization, because anorganization is just as a
typically just a spreadsheet ora what do you call it A
hierarchy and or building.
It's actually who's in thereand are they thinking about
these topics that we're bringingup today?

Speaker 2 (47:42):
Because they're critical.
They really are.
I agree with you.
I think recently I think it wasCulture Amp they put out an
article, that famous quote oh,people don't leave organizations
, they leave their directmanagers.
They did further research onthat and found that even if you
had the worst manager or thebest manager in the world,
you're more likely to leave ifsenior leadership doesn't model

(48:04):
the behavior that supportsleaders.
So, like, when I think of likeorganization wide, I think of
that like C-suite seniorleadership team, that really it
starts with them from the top.
And I couldn't agree with youmore, Ruth, about I wish
coaching just started from theday you join through the day you
leave as an alumni, Like it'sjust like therapy, like it just

(48:24):
supports you to be better and tobe better with other people.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
And then sometimes isn't seen as it shouldn't be
seen as a punishment, likeyou're not punished because you
actually see an executive coach,or we recommend that.
It's the idea of yeah, and I'meven I don't know if I'm totally
even convinced that it's alwaysabout senior leadership.
Sometimes it is.
It's the training about how dowe value the space.
Yeah, I think there's a lothere to unpack.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
I actually feel like, given what is going on in the
world right now, I would armevery C-level executive with a
coach, with a therapist, if theywere ready for it and if they
wanted it.
But I do not understand how youcan go through and lead an
organization in these times andnot need both of those services

(49:12):
at least every three to sixmonths.
I really don't.
Yeah, thank you for coming tomy TED Talk.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Okay, we have a few listener Q&As and we have about
nine minutes left.
We'll get to that and thenwe'll close off on some bold
predictions.
How does that sound?
Love it.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
All right, francesca, I am great.
We have four questions thatcame in.
I will do my best to read themand then whoever would like to
answer them.
Fantastic, here we go.
I've been told to bring my fullself to work, but when I speak
up or show more personality, Isometimes feel like it backfires
.
I worry about being judged orseen as unprofessional.
How can I balance authenticitywith workplace expectations?

Speaker 1 (49:52):
I can try this one.
This is where I spend time.
I do.
I think it's about finding aculture fit in terms of your
authentic self.
Where will they value thatspace of you?
And if they're not valuing it,I'm not saying you have to leave
every job, but are there spaceswithin that organization that
you can be your best self?
Because I don't even know ifit's.
Again, authentic is the rightword.

(50:13):
I think it's how do you bringyour best self where you get the
support you need?
And if you're not getting itfrom a manager or your coworkers
, are there other opportunitiesto find it?
And have you asked?
Have you gone through theprocess of asking?
And again, it's not trying tomake it a viral moment, it's
about trying to think abouttaking those small steps.
So how can you get the supportyou need around that best self

(50:37):
or where you need support?
So it's I think about it assmall steps and thinking about
where are those safeenvironments where you can be
vulnerable or where others aremodeling that?
And then leaning into thoseemployee resource groups,
leaning into the spaces orcoworkers where you can and, if
all else fails, find a new job.
And I'm not saying that lightly, I am serious when I say it is

(50:59):
find a culture fit where they doappreciate the different
perspectives and differentexperiences that you bring,
because that's the work.
The North Star here is how dowe create workplaces where they
do value different experiencesand different perspectives?

Speaker 3 (51:15):
I also love that you said about asking too, because I
think a lot of times peoplethink it's just going to show up
or arrive or be obvious, and somuch of the time you have to do
a little digging before youstart looking.
Potentially too, beth, anythingto add to that?

Speaker 4 (51:30):
I always say that if you're worried about the way
you're coming across or the wayyou're showing up, ask advice or
ask someone, one person thatyou trust, whether that's your
leader or it's a trusted friendhow am I showing up?
Because I'm getting a littleanxious when I say X, y or Z, do
a little gut check, never hurts, yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
Yeah, love it.
These are small, very doablethings that can really have a
very big impact.
I love that.
All right, I'm going to pullthis over to you, beth, for the
first one, because we're talkingabout belonging.
My company talks a lot aboutbelonging, but in practice it
feels like only certain types ofpeople truly fit in.
I'm not sure if I'm being toosensitive or if there's a real
issue.
How can employees tell if aworkplace genuinely supports

(52:09):
authenticity, and what shouldthey do if they don't feel safe
being themselves?
I'll start with you, beth.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
Been there, done that .
So I always like to say, when Italk about it a lot in the book
, what does alignment look like,or misalignment?
If a company is telling youthat their biggest values are
trust, respect and the colorpurple right, there's so many
different things Are theywearing purple?
Do they trust one another andthey're respecting?

(52:36):
So when it becomes lip service,that's when we all have that
deep disconnect.
So you have to really determinewhether or not you feel that
pull or you feel aligned to it.
If you're not feeling it there,then you really have some things
to think about.
Whether you're, you know, likewhen you become in an impasse,
our first instinct is to quit.

(52:56):
Right, but livelihood is tiedto our jobs.
That's not realistic foreveryone and here's the problem
If we don't resolve it withinthe last place we left, it's
going to come with us to everyother job.
Okay, so I talk a lot about somenasty bosses I've had in the
past and I've talked about thefact that one still follows me.

(53:17):
They do, he does, and I can'thelp it, and I've even made
strides to reach out to him andit feels like I was kind to
someone that punched me in theface, if that makes sense.
So there's ways to do it thatyou feel that you are going with
your gut and you're trustingyourself, but quitting is not
one of them, unfortunately.
In this situation, I would do alittle bit more of a deeper

(53:38):
analysis around what the fitlooks like against your values
and then, if it's not a fit,then I would slowly start to
look, because if it's erodingyour sense of self or your worth
or your identity or your senseof mattering, those are all
triggers that it is time toleave.
You just need to do it in atime and a space that's going to
make your life easier.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
All right, I'm going to do one last question just for
the sake of time here.
Sure, let's get into politics.
Just kidding, okay.
With the current politicalclimate and companies pulling
back on DEI efforts which weknow, sometimes belonging and
hiding is lumped in there withDEI sometimes I've noticed a
shift in how belonging andinclusion are talked about, or
not talked about, at work.

(54:20):
How should employees andleaders navigate these changes
while still advocating forworkplaces where everyone feels
valued?

Speaker 4 (54:28):
So my first bet is to stop shifting to belonging and
I know that's really funny froma belonging researcher.
But when we impose belonging,there's a whole lot of
performance belonging thatstarts to happen.
Right, and, by the way,corporations are not that
creative.
But when we impose belonging,there's a whole lot of
performance belonging thatstarts to happen.
Right, and, by the way,corporations are not that
creative.
If I hear one more you belonghere slogan as the theme of 2025
, because the thing is, it's notthat easy and belonging is not

(54:50):
something that others decide foryou.
That's inclusion.
So if you want to make it a moreinclusive environment, I
welcome it.
If you want to tell people theybelong, I caution you, because
that is a beautiful sentiment,but it's not always the case.
And then employees feel reallybad or like it's just them or
something's wrong with them andthat's not the outcome we want

(55:11):
for them, right?
I don't think companies set outto ruin people's lives I don't
but at the same time, those arethe outcomes.
So I personally think and I dohave research that really pulls
them apart from one anotherDiversity, equity, inclusion,
equality they're all soimportant.
Don't lump them together anddon't call them belonging just

(55:32):
because you want to reallysubstitute for something that is
being unfortunately torn awayfrom people.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
Yeah, that's a brilliant point, ruth.
What would you add there?

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Yeah, I would recognize that this is happening
.
I think that's a so I'm gladyou asked the question because
if it hadn't come up, I thinkthat it impacts both the work
that Beth and I do and also thework that you are doing, mel and
Francesca.
In terms of DEI specificallyand I think that's it's funny I
was on a panel a year ago and itwas before a lot of this real

(56:03):
serious backlash.
There was beginning backlashthat we've been feeling and
people feeling excluded in someways.
What DEI didn't do well is ithad some people feeling excluded
from the conversation and therewas a really powerful speaker
that I was on the panel with andhe said you know what?
I'm going to start calling it ahumanity practice, because
nobody can start to argue withthat, and I thought that was

(56:24):
really beautiful because we areall about humanity.
We're about different.
How do we start to again valuethose different perspectives and
those different experiencesfrom employees and to leaders
and to the organization?
How do we start to reallycreate space for that?
Because that is going to drivebusiness, that is going to be
the impact on innovation andcreativity, that impacts

(56:44):
retention and engagement.
Those differences that we bringare actually the gifts that we
have.
So I know that DEI, quote,unquote is going away and this
kind of falls into the last mybold prediction.
But I'm going to these boldpredictions.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
I have some targeted questions first.
So, ruth, I don't know if we'llget to it right away, but I
want to save it, so we have tomake time for that.
Five years from now, guys areworkplaces getting this right.
What do you think?

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Think about 2020 to 2025, right.
What do you think?
Think about 2020 to 2025, right, that's a five-year segment,
right.
What did we get right and whatdid we not?
Based on a huge pandemic.
So I think about culture thatway too.

Speaker 4 (57:51):
What are we going?

Speaker 1 (57:51):
to oh, that's a tough one.
I don't know.
I don't.
I think if you had asked meyeah, if you had asked us a
month ago, maybe six weeks ago.
I'd be different.
Maybe I don't.
I think that there's going tobe a.
I think we are going to get itright, because I yeah, I'm going

(58:12):
to be positive on this one, I'mgoing to own it, because I
think there are enough of usthat are upset and seeing what's
happening and we've had a tasteof what it can look like to
value difference and what it canbe like to feel like we are
included.
And I'm scared to say, beth,but we have a taste of it, right
, so we can't go back.

(58:32):
When you see something, youcan't unsee it, and so we've
seen a taste of what it is.
And I think that there areenough of us that keep pushing
the envelope and don't getscared, because that fear is
real, even not wanting to signup for a website and putting a
fake address.
I've been doing that latelybecause I'm scared of that, but
I'm like, no, that's not the waywe push forward.

(58:53):
So I'm going to say, yes, we'reon the road to getting it right
.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
I'm going to contact you in five years.
No, what do you think?

Speaker 4 (59:02):
Seth, I think it's going to require a lot of
bravery, and I think bravery inthe workplace is being yourself
every day in a world that tellsyou to be someone else or
something different.
So I am one of the mostpositive people you're going to
meet.
It hurts me deeply to say that.
I think it might get a littleworse before it gets better, and
what I hope that happens toRuth's point is we all kick our

(59:23):
own asses a little bit out thereto make sure that we are the
change.
I'm not really a cliche person.
It's all coming out in cliches,but the thing is.
In order for us to reallyachieve that bravery, we have to
stand in our own truth and wehave to be able to pull together
, because the thing is, we needto also acknowledge that we're
in it together.
Yeah that's it.

(59:43):
It does not win whether, whenyou, until you stop sacrificing
who you are and you help theother people around you, do just
the same thing.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
Yeah, and that's really the goal of unhiding
right Is standing in truth.
That is truly it, because youcan't really.
We say we want to get to knowpeople and accept them, but
unless you fully know me, youcan't accept me.
That's part of the journey.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
There's this sign in Key West.
I saw it everywhere.
It was like one humankind orsomething like that.
But going back to your humanitypoint, ruth, it's yes.
At the end of the day, we'reall human beings, so how do we
can just support each other atthat level as like human beings?
Okay, this is my second boldprediction question for you both
.
What's one radical change Ifyou could wave a magic wand

(01:00:28):
tomorrow?
What's one radical change thatyou would have companies make?
No small tweaks, only a boldmove.
What would that one thing be?

Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
I'm going to say valuing diversity of thought.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Okay, I'm going to say having an unhiding manifesto
that every organization, justlike we did with other lenses of
diversity, that we put upmanifestos, that this one
actually believes in the idea ofvaluing difference and allowing
for that space and naming it,because, again, we can say all
the things we want, unless wename it, it doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Okay, I want to now get back to Ruth.
What's your bold predictionthat you wanted to share?

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
I absolutely believe, given return to office, given
the backlash with DEI, givenwhere we are in terms of this
conversation around belongingand inclusion and we have a
workforce that's coming indemanding transparency I
absolutely believe there is anew model of leadership that is

(01:01:32):
right there, that we can grabonto and that we are building,
because I don't think theleadership of yesterday works
anymore and the one for thefuture is almost too far for us.
What do we need right now?
And to me, that's unhiddenleadership.
That is a new model ofleadership and it's different
than authentic leadership.
It's different than boldleadership and all of the terms.
It's the idea of how do youcreate space for others to be

(01:01:55):
themselves, to be their bestselves.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
I like it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):
Beth, what about you?
What's your final bold?
I wrote down, I wrotehuman-centric leadership.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
We're on the same wavelength and I think it's
because here's the thing.
I do believe we are in atrauma-informed workplace.
That's what the state of theworkplace looks like, and for so
long it's been so taboo.
And talking about the traumathat people feel is just not
enough.
They feel like their trauma isless than, and that's just not
the truth.
And is it appropriate always todiscuss all the trauma?

(01:02:27):
No, not at all.
But human centric leadershipthat is able to balance
productivity with human need isreally.
Where is the prediction I thinkwe're going to get to?

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
I hope we all start to just demand it more.
So let's get there together.
I appreciate you both so much.
Thank you for joining us today.
This was super helpful.
We're going to sign off, butlisten, I'm going to share our
socials.
You can find us onyourworkfriendscom.
Also on this YouTube channel ifyou subscribe.
We have a LinkedIn community Ifyou're over on the professional
side and you want to join theconversation over there.

(01:03:07):
But you can also find us onInstagram and TikTok.
You should definitely check outRuth's books and you should
definitely check out Dr BethKaplan's new book.
They are awesome.
You can follow them on LinkedInand also on Instagram.
We're tagging them andeverything.
So please go find them andfollow them for more great

(01:03:27):
advice in this area.
And just thank you for joiningus tonight and with that,
francesca.
Is there anything else you'dlike to add?

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
Just Beth and Ruth had a big publishing week.
Beth, your book went out.
Ruth, you went into time thisweek.
This is big.
We will post both of these, asMel said, in our show notes.
Read them.
Required reading.

Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
Thank you.
Thank you both so much, andRuth, you're brilliant, so thank
you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
We're on the same page.
I can't wait.
We're in it together.

Speaker 4 (01:03:54):
That's right.

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