November 5, 2024 • 47 mins
In a world obsessed with productivity, could play be your team's secret weapon?
Brandon Wetzstein has helped transform teams at major organizations by tapping into the power of strategic play. In this episode, he breaks down why traditional "serious" approaches often lead to mediocre solutions, and how structured play can break through conventional thinking to unlock breakthrough ideas.
Key Episode Highlights:
[00:03:45] Why NASA and Google use play-based methods for complex problems [00:12:30] The psychology behind why play creates psychological safety [00:18:20] How one leadership team resolved long-standing conflicts through play [00:25:15] Practical techniques for introducing play in traditional environments [00:35:40] The science of why play leads to better solutions than conventional methods
Whether you're:
- Leading a team through transformation
- Looking to drive innovation in a traditional industry
- Trying to break down silos between departments
- Building psychological safety in your team
This episode provides actionable strategies for using play as a serious business tool.
Featured Guest: Brandon Wetzstein, founder of In8 Create, certified LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® facilitator, and expert in using play-based methodologies for organizational transformation.
Resources Mentioned:
- Connect with Brandon on LinkedIn
- In8 Create
- Book: "Play" by Dr. Stuart Brown
- LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® methodology
Tags: workplace innovation, leadership development, team building, organizational psychology, corporate culture, professional development, business strategy, team communication, change management, employee engagement
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And a lot of times we need more ideas to come up with
better.
If you ask people for ideas,the first like one to seven or
eight ideas.
Everyone just comes up with thesame things.
They're very similar because wehave a very systematic mind.
For the most part, it's whenyou start getting to idea nine,
10, 11, 12, 13.
And yeah, sometimes we need toget a little bit weird to come
(00:20):
up with that thing.
That is the brilliant idea.
And the more ideas, the morecreativity we can have, the more
imagination, the more we canget out of our own way.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
What's going on, mel?
Not much is going on.
It's finally chilly here.
Last week we had some 80-degreeweather on November 1st, which
was a little strange, but wewent down to the beach to enjoy
it, which was really nice.
How about you?
Very?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
nice, very nice.
I have a bone to pick withevery single person that I grew
up with.
Tell me more, okay.
So we're going back andre-watching these kid movies,
mainly because I have aseven-year-old, and one of the
movies we watched that I justsaw for the first time was
Karate Kid.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I can't get over that .
You're just seeing Karate Kid.
First of all, Listen.
When I meet your parents, Ineed to ask why.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Because my dad felt that the Betamax was superior
technology to the VHS and therewas like one rental store that
actually had Betamax nobloodluster for you.
It was like we finally got it aVHS when it was too late.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
DVDs are coming out, but you finally got the VHS.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yes, 100% the switch.
There was like three months.
Like I just saw Goonies, I justsaw most of the Star.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Wars.
I mean, those are pretty bigones to miss in your childhood.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Going through high school and college with
everybody quoting these moviesetc.
And the quotes from Karate Kidwere always like wax on, wax off
.
Yeah, why is it that no oneever talked about the ending of
that movie?
Because, I swear to God, you gothrough two hours and then all
of a sudden the movie justfreaking ends.
That is the most abrupt endingI've ever had in my life.
(02:08):
You're like wait, what happened?
What if that bit?
I would like to know why no onetalked about the dumb ending of
that movie.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It's the 80s.
Tell you, watching 80s moviesis so funny.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
The choices All right , yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
We had the pleasure of sitting down with Brandon
Wettstein from AnyCreate.
He's just so rad.
He's talking to us about playin the workplace and you and I
have talked about the importanceof play at work, and we're not
talking about forced teambuilding events here at all.
One of the things that reallystands out to me is how the play
(02:44):
part of being at work, havingfun with what you do has been
beaten out of org cultures.
It seems we no longer relax andget to this point where you can
shut off the noise and reallyconnect as a team and get
together and just think aboutwhat's possible.
But there's so many stats thatshow how important play is for
(03:08):
the success of teams and fororganizations.
It nurtures things likecritical thinking, creativity,
it powers innovation, it helpsreally make teams feel connected
.
Breakdown silos increasescollaboration, communication.
The list goes on and on.
What do you think?
The thing that I loved?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
about our conversation with Brandon is,
when you think about play atwork, automatically a lot of
people think ping pong tables,play-doh, etc.
But there are many ways that wecan play at work.
For instance, organizing work,that could be an aspect of play.
If you really get into that,like if you really love to plan
events or organize events, thatcan be an aspect of play.
(03:47):
And really understanding whatplay is to you is critical.
So I loved this conversationbecause, to your point, I think
we've lost play and we can getit back.
You can choose to get it backand reincorporate it into your
work, even if it's not comingfrom your organization 100%.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
This is a goodie.
We leave you guys with somereally good pointers on how to
start thinking about play withinthe org, especially if you're a
leader, how to start nurturingthat with your own teams and the
work that you do.
So with that, here's Brandon.
All right, brandon, could youtell us about your journey and
(04:35):
what inspired you to start inEatCreate?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Oh yes, it's one of those things where whenever you
look backwards, it all makessense Going forward.
You're like what, how did thishappen?
I started my career in retail,working in stores selling
electronics, actually when I wasin college.
When I date myself here, hgtvfirst came out as a giant, huge
TVs and that led me moving intocorporate environments, again in
(04:59):
a very retail.
Most of my career was in retail, both store side and corporate.
And then there was there's likethat epiphany moment that
happens and for me it wasrunning a design thinking
workshop within the operationsgroup at Target, which is one of
the companies that, and thatmoment crystallized my purpose.
And what happened in thatmoment is there was a person who
(05:21):
was on my team, a person whowas a little bit shy, and this
person came a lot in this designthinking workshop right.
Their ideas came up.
It's so much information, somuch energy and I always hold
that moment really close to myheart because I remember how
great it felt to give thatperson an avenue, an arena to to
share, whereas in the normalspace of, especially in
(05:43):
operations, teams like I wasalways in operations and
operators make the fun zoneright.
Yeah, it's the black and whiteright.
There's no gray, and so SOPland yeah.
This was the challenging part ishow do you get creative and
innovative and have some fun,have some joy and get people to
come up with some crazy ideas inoperations when that's not like
(06:06):
the way that they normally workand I shouldn't say they me too
, that was an operator as well,and so I just I love that moment
and that was really acrystallizing piece, and so I
was introduced to Lego seriousplay not too far after that
moment and my curiosity just gotto me on this and I started
pulling the thread and readingsome books.
I never could quite figure outhow to do it on my own.
I wanted to try it, but I justcouldn't.
(06:27):
So I finally got certified in2019 and I fell in love.
I was like this is amazing.
This is the secret to gettinggroups to communicate and
understand and listen to eachother in a fun and playful way,
and so that's why I started at8Create and again, it's been
five years now, which is justamazing to me, and I still love
it.
Every session I do, everyworkshop, every team building,
(06:50):
bringing these methods tovarious teams to help them
connect, communicate andcollaborate differently.
It's just, it's so joyfulbecause it's this unexpected.
We're going to have fun andwe're going to do work like that
possible.
No, that doesn't make any sense, but it is and it works and
it's amazingly impactful and Ican't wait to do it with more
and more companies hopefully therest of my days.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, pretty nice.
I didn't even know you couldget certified in play.
That sounds like a really funprocess to go through.
How was that?
What was that like?
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I'm certified it's very specifically in a
methodology that's called Legoserious play.
I did not make this up.
Lego back in the late ninetieswas really looking at who they
were as a company.
They stood for creativity andimagination they still do but
that's not how they weredeveloping their business
internally.
We have all this creativity andimagination that we're bringing
(07:42):
to the world and to childreneverywhere, but how do we bring
that into our boardroom?
How can we bring creativity andimagination into strategy
really was the question, andthen they spent a few years
building this, playing with it,tweaking with it, and then they
sold it as a consulting servicefor better part of a decade.
Now, as we know of Lego today,they're not a consulting company
.
This is not what they do, andthey know that too, and they
(08:04):
stepped away from it in about2010.
And they did release an opensource document that anyone can
go read.
You can go on Lego's website Ibelieve it's legocom slash
serious play.
There's all sorts ofinformation on there.
However, it's not enough toread and do on your own At least
, for me, it wasn't and so partof the people that ran and
developed this system at Legowere basically gifted some of
(08:25):
the IP and they created more IParound it and they created these
certifications.
There's about two or threedifferent groups out there that
are very well known forcertifications and they all have
different strengths andbackgrounds histories, but it
does help to understand and seehow this comes to life from
someone who knows what they'redoing.
And then, once you have thatand the idea is it's like
drinking from a fire hose Onceyou get done, you're like, oh my
(08:48):
gosh, I could do anything withthis.
There's so many applicationsand ways that you can use it and
people use it for a lot ofdifferent things.
I use it for organizations andteams mostly, but there are some
people that I was certifiedwith that use it for play
therapy.
There's people that half thepeople that were in my
certification class worked inschools, various high schools,
colleges, trying to get studentsto think differently and get
out of their own way.
So it really is a communicationmethodology that allows you to
(09:11):
get out of your own way andbring that creativity and
imagination that Lego wasstriving to bring to really any
type of situation.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I love that.
I also love that yourbackground is in operations,
because when people think ofplay, they think of only the
forced fun, team buildingactivities that happen.
We often hear like the I don'twant forced fun, but that's not
what you're saying, that's notwhat you're talking about here.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I was introduced to it when I was working at Target,
but I know that companies likeNASA, the Department of Defense,
google, apple there's so manyorganizations that have used
this because it's beenscientifically proven.
It's not even just the playfulaspect of it, but there's so
many other psychology like thecommunication pieces, the
mentally offloading informationand physical objects.
All of these things havedifferent types of benefits.
(09:58):
When you combine them, they'rejust new and creative ways to
get people out of their own way.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, can you explain how Innate Create helps
organizations really embraceplay and creativity in the
workplace?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Absolutely, and so the most important part of at
least the workshops and the teambuilding sessions that we do is
that it's not like you're goingto do this and have fun.
It's we're going to create, inessence, a sandbox.
We're going to create theenvironment that allows you to
figure out how you want to playin this space, if that makes
(10:34):
sense.
So with this Lego method, thatis our primary methodology.
There's a couple of keys to it.
One people are building storiesout of Lego bricks, and when I
say building stories, we'rebasically using metaphor and
generally don't introduce itthat way, because a lot of
people hold on metaphor.
Let's back this up a little bit.
No, we're just going to createstories and we start off with a
(10:55):
very basic build just to getthem back into playing with
Legos, Because for a lot ofpeople, they maybe haven't
touched Lego in a long time orthey put away their kids Legos.
It's not necessarily a joyfulthing for them at home.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Or they're like.
I just stepped on a Lego lastnight.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I just bombed all out of my house Exactly, but one of
the key aspects of thismethodology is that the builder
can't be wrong and I'm going tosay that again because it's so
impactful.
The builder can't be wrong.
And so, when you think aboutthis, we're not building
airplanes, we're not buildingcars and trucks.
We're not building things perse, because there's certain
(11:30):
people that I'm sure are muchmore attuned to building things
and coming up with creative Legoideas.
But when you build stories andyou can't be wrong suddenly
whatever you build is up to you,and so some people build these
large, elaborate things.
Some people do build cars andships, and that's fine, but some
people build really abstractthings that you have no idea
what they mean until they tellyou.
(11:51):
And so it gives this freedom topeople to express themselves in
whatever way they would like,and some people will just put
two pieces together and thatwill be their answer to a
question.
And to give you an example of aquestion we might ask and one
of my favorite ones is in ourteam building sessions.
It's just, the main focus isgetting people to know each
other better.
They ask people to build amodel that tells a story about
(12:13):
who they are outside of work.
That's it.
That's it.
It's that simple and there's no.
You can't be wrong and you canchoose right.
Okay, how do you build a modelof oh my gosh, what a huge topic
.
Do I build my hobbies?
Do I build my children, myfamily, the fact that I have a
soup pot and the crock pot,whatever, right, there's no
wrong answer.
And what you get is thisamazing amount of ideas and
(12:34):
thoughts, of insights, andpeople share what they want.
And so that's where I think itreally is different from most
other types of team buildings,because it gives people the
freedom to express themselvesand share whatever they might
want to share.
And it's amazing, the thingsthat come up in these sessions,
too.
You find out.
I did a session in Californiaonce where we found out like
half the group was growingcitrus, like as a whole.
(12:55):
You're like, oh, wow, we're allgrowing citrus, cool, okay.
So they created a little groupafterwards.
Another group I did in DC.
We had a group of five or sixpeople that all had adopted a
dog in the past like six months,and it was just this weird
thing.
We're like no one knew this.
So it's amazing.
There's so much depth anddimensions of who we are outside
of work, but we don'tnecessarily show up and just
(13:15):
talk about ourselves.
It's not socially acceptableand this just gives us an avenue
to share a little bit, but doso in a very psychologically
safe way, do so in a very easyway and, again, each person
decides how much and what theywould like to share.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, I love that.
What's one of the mostrewarding projects you've worked
on since you've been in thisspace?
Because you came from OBS, so Ialways think of those being the
most skeptical folks coming inon this stuff, right.
So is there a skeptic whosemind you changed or someone you
were really nervous about?
That was really rewarding onceyou ran this year workshop.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, one of my favorites is a two and a half or
three hour session with thesenior leadership team of a very
large nonprofit, and we werethere to really dig into
communication, which is shocking.
It's one of the things I getbrought in to talk about a lot
because communication is one ofthose interesting things where
it's very important to talkabout, but it's very sharp right
(14:11):
.
It has a lot of edges, so youhave to watch out how you're
going to talk about it, and soI've got 12 participants in this
group and it was amazing towatch A the variety.
There's a little bit ofskepticism in the room.
There's a little bit ofskepticism in the room.
There's a little bit ofexcitement too, though there
always is, because some peoplelike to play with Legos.
But then the question when youget that level of seniority is
is this fluffy or is this awaste of time?
Are we actually going to getsomething?
(14:33):
And I think the reason why Ilove it so much is A.
It was amazingly impactful.
We really looked at thecommunication journey from a
standpoint of what doesworld-class communication look
like in a senior leadership team, and we got to a point where
everyone had a chance to expresstheir thoughts and their ideas.
Using the Lego models.
We looked at the negative sideof things.
(14:54):
Think of the worst team you'veever worked for.
Build a model that shows whathorrible communication looks
like.
Let's take a look at a model ofwhat amazing communication
looks like.
Let's take a look at whatcommunication looks like from a
psychological safety perspectiveor from a candor perspective.
And we started putting a lot ofthese lenses to it and what
ended up happening is, afterabout two and a half three hours
(15:14):
, we were able to reallypinpoint about three different,
very important point of views onthis leadership team, and that
were there was a group of peoplethat was extremely frustrated
with the level of psychologicalsafety.
They wanted to feel like theywere able to express their
opinions and their thoughts in asafe way.
(15:34):
There was another group ofpeople that felt like there was
a responsibility in everyone inthe group, needed to have a
certain level of candor witheach other.
And then there was anotherperson in the group this was
actually the CEO who really didnot necessarily disagree with
those, but felt like everyonehad a responsibility to really
put in the legwork and theeffort before bringing up ideas,
(15:55):
thoughts or opinions.
So you get these three aspectsall rotating around one another
right.
We need to have candor andspeak our mind and speak up.
We need to be able to feel safeto speak up, but we also need
to put in the due diligence Ifwe're going to bring up an
opinion or a thought or an ideathat we've actually thought
about it right, we're not justwinging it and firing from the
hip.
And the thing is, when you lookat all three of those, they're
(16:15):
all doable.
You just have to have theseexpectations with each other in
that reflection point, and so tobe able to get to that type of
information in two and a half,three hours is amazing, and to
do so in such a fun and playfulway.
And that was that's why that wassuch a favorite for me because
the play aspect.
It really allows people to putaside some of the group dynamics
(16:39):
that stops us fromcommunicating effectively.
You put eight, 10, 12 people ina room.
You're going to have hierarchydifferences, you're going to
have ego differences, you'regoing to have extroversion,
introversion, all of thesethings histories, backgrounds,
all of this comes into play inevery type of meeting and with
this play aspect, especiallywith this Lego serious play
method that gets reducedmassively, if not even
(17:01):
eliminated, because you're sopeople are so focused on the
model that they're building.
And how do I create the storyaround what?
My thoughts are?
That it allows for a much moreopen expression in a very safe
way, but it also keeps thetangents very much out of the
way.
It keeps people very focused onthe topic at hand.
We're not allowing ourselves togo off in one direction or
(17:23):
another, so we can get to thetopic at hand, really understand
where everyone's at.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, it really cuts through some of the dynamics
that might be happening right.
It removes all of the minutiaethat shows up in team dynamics
and it seems really powerful tocome to this joint agreement in
just under two hours on howyou're going to operate as a
team in terms of communicationand idea sharing, which is
really fantastic.
Francesca and I have facilitated, like you, a ton of learning
(17:50):
and sometimes, when you'reworking with teams, those
dynamics especially when you'retalking about how are we going
to operate, how do we prefer towork Like, how do we come
together with different workingstyles and show up as a team
together To your good point someof those dynamics can take the
conversation off the rails andyou start to go down these
routes that are not productiveand not getting to know.
(18:13):
But what can we do together?
So I love the concept of howthis offers a level of focus and
safety for everyone to sharetheir ideas, and it's pretty
impactful to come to a jointleadership agreement on this is
how we're going to operate injust share their ideas, and it's
pretty impactful to come to ajoint leadership agreement on
this is how we're going tooperate in just under two hours,
and everyone feels positiveabout that outcome because they
all contributed in a way that isreally beautiful.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It does From a psychological perspective.
There's a couple of key thingsthat's really fun to see.
So one and this is part of thefacilitation as well is when
people build their model.
So let's say I have my model.
Of course I've got a visual ofAIDS, I've got a little duck in
front of me, but let's say thisis my idea of like world-class
communication is speaking yourmind?
I don't know right.
I could say that that's whatthis, uh, sure, we'll go with
(18:56):
that.
But what happens is, as I'mtalking and usually someone does
build a duck they buildsomething weird and something it
looks like something a fiveyear old might make.
People are generally looking atthe model and not the person,
and so what happens is thatdisplaces the attention onto
whatever the thing is and notdirectly at you, and so it makes
it easier to talk.
(19:16):
One because the attention is onthe model itself, but also, too
, because this idea is out herenow, and so now I'm not talking
about this thing or this opinionthat's in my head, but I'm
talking about this weird littletoy thing.
That's a pile of Legos, whichis not threatening, which is
easy to, it's playful.
Usually there's some funmetaphors going on in there you
can see some physicality,no-transcript, say in the middle
(19:54):
of sessions wow, I didn'treally need to go that deep or I
didn't mean to say that much orI didn't mean to go that far,
but because it's so safe to talk, right, it's usually not a
regretful thing, but it's moreof a reflection.
Oh, I can't believe I just saidthat in this group of people
that I never would have saidthis if we were just having a
verbal discussion.
But it's really.
I think it's empowering too,where people are like oh yeah,
(20:14):
you know what?
I'm glad I said that right,because it is what people truly
think.
They put time into buildingthis model and their thoughts
and their opinions.
And, yeah, they get to takethat psychological safety and
feel a little bit better aboutsharing whatever it is they
might be doing.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I'm wondering about how play shows up when it's not
facilitated.
How play shows up potentiallyat work, or should could show up
at work, and just the dailinessof work.
Why is play essential forsomeone at work?
And just the dailiness of work.
Why is play essential forsomeone at work in general?
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Oh, there's so many.
There's so many good answers tothis that if you think about
play, you go back to childhood.
Right, and here's the fun partIf you want to research, play
and go read books on play, like90% of the books on play, if not
98%, are all about kids.
Because kids, that's what kidsdo, right, it's natural Watch
children.
No one needs to be taught howto play.
They just go, they do it, theyplay pretend, they try things
(21:25):
out, and so play gives us somany different tools.
So one it allows us to trythings right.
And we think about everythingthat's been written about
embracing failure.
Do kids think about failurewhen they try stuff while
playing?
No they just do, and if itdoesn't work out, fine, I
learned, I go on to the nextthing, I go on to the next thing
, I go great.
I think one is trying things,you're able to try things on,
(21:46):
You're able to play, and itgives you a way to experience
something in a very low risktype of scenario.
No-transcript, little bit goofy, being a little bit silly,
(22:28):
allows you to take all of theseborders that we have in our mind
right, all of these boundaries,all of these walls, all of
these rules, and get rid of themand start thinking about things
in different ways than youmight have done before.
One of my favorite exercises isan improv exercise.
I do this with my audience.
I have people pair up and I usean animal of some kind of.
(22:50):
One person gets to be a llamaand the other person gets to be
a lion.
Everyone choose and I'll set atimer for 45 seconds and have
one person say lions are greatbecause X and they have to list
as many things as they can andthey have to say lions are great
because every time so.
Lions are great because theyhave big teeth.
Lions are great because theyhave giant veins.
Lions are great because they'reking of the jungle, and after
about 45 seconds, the otherperson's counting.
(23:11):
We asked the audience how manydid you get?
Seven, eight, nine, 10, 15,whatever the number is.
But then we asked what didpeople say?
And they all said things thatwere true about lions right,
that they are kings of thejungle, that they have, that
they eat meat, whatever thatmight be Like.
Did anyone say that lions aregreat at their taxes?
Did anyone say that lions aregreat because they wear polka
dots on Halloween?
Did anyone say that lions aregreat because they make an
(23:31):
amazing vegetarian chili?
And everyone's, yeah, they startlaughing.
You're like what, wait a minute, hold on.
They're like there's no rulesto this, you can make up
whatever you want.
And so then we flip it aroundand we have the llamas go and we
do the same exact thing, butthis time take off those
limitations that you put onyourself.
Right, with this rule that ithas to actually be true about
lions, and then we watcheveryone do 1.5 to 2.
(23:53):
Times more ideas.
Right, instead of going, I'mjust coming out with as many
ideas as possible.
I'm really trying to think ofwhat is actually true, about why
it's, and so that is just aninteresting framework to think
of.
Okay, so now, when we're tryingto be creative or innovative at
work, what type of rules are weputting in our own way?
And this is where that playfulmindset right.
How do we use play to have morefun, come up with better ideas?
(24:15):
And a lot of times we need moreideas to come up with better.
If you ask people for ideas,the first like one to seven or
eight ideas.
Everyone just comes up with thesame things.
They're very similar because wehave a very systematic mind Not
100%, but for the most partit's when you start getting to
idea nine, 10, 11, 12, 13.
And yeah, sometimes we need toget a little bit weird to come
(24:37):
up with that thing.
That is the brilliant idea.
And the more ideas, the morecreativity we can have, the more
imagination, the more we canget out of our own way.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
You said the mindset of play.
So many times when I thinkabout mindsets it comes down to
a trigger question you can askyourself so you get into the
mindset?
Is there a question you can askyourself to say how do I get
into play?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of different ways to do
this.
One of the things that I do onmy own not shockingly, I use
Legos because I have them, but Iwill actually build out my
thoughts and ideas out of likeon a table.
I'll build it physically, I'llsay this is what I'm doing for
my business plan or my marketingplan or whatever, and I'll
build it out of Lego and havesome fun with it.
Right, and then you can come upwith some ideas.
(25:20):
So that's one aspect to youcould ask a question of and this
is another exercise from designthinking is to give yourself
different prompts of how might Isolve this If I was Walt Disney
?
How might I solve this If I hadno money?
How might I solve this If had atrillion dollars?
Or if I was, pick a name, right, if I was Harvey T Firestone,
(25:40):
how would I solve this?
Or pick anyone, and just giveyourself a different frame and
try to get out of your own way.
And I think that's the hardestpart is right, we know what we
know and we're in our own mindsall the time.
Right, we're here, we're notgoing anywhere, but we have to
(26:11):
recognize when we get in our ownrut.
This question could be verydifferent for different people
and it could be using a physicalmedium, it could be framing
someone else, it could beutilizing music there's so many
different triggers.
But having something and tryingsomething and literally playing
with it is step one.
Each person is probably goingto be a little bit different,
but the fact that you're tryingis probably that first step into
figuring out how each personcan make that true for
themselves.
(26:33):
The cool other part of play isit's fun, right, it can be fun.
The cool other part of play isit's fun, right, it can be fun.
And I think one of the otheraspects is we think about stress
, and especially now we'regetting much smarter about how
the brain reacts to stress andwhat cortisol does to our
creativity.
And yet when we get people in aplayful state, their ideas are
better, they're more creative,they work better together.
(26:55):
And one of the other aspects ofplay that works with especially
with children and adults, iswhen we play with people we
actually connect.
Think of when you play.
There's a wonderful book outthere titled Aptly Play by Dr
Stuart Brown, and he outlineseight attributes of play, and
one of those attributes is adiminished consciousness of self
.
So when we think about how wethink about ourselves, we're in
(27:17):
a stressful board meeting witheight people or 10, and how are
we going to fix this thing?
Everyone's stressed right, andso we're not going to come up
with our best ideas when we'restressed and we're feeling under
pressure.
But if we can deflate that alittle bit and get a little play
and start building off of eachother's ideas and getting that
consciousness of self, insteadof sitting there wondering how
(27:40):
am I being viewed?
How I speak up?
Should I not speak up?
Will I be judged for this?
When we're playing, we're justbringing our full self forward,
and so we connect better, workbetter together.
Everything just gets better.
We have that play aspectattached to it just freaking
refreshing too.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
like I, I have a six-year-old and it's always
amazing to watch him play and toyour very good point, that he
doesn't give a shit about how helooks, if he's feeling, if he's
dirty, if it's the right thingto do or not, and your idea
around to around that diminishedsense of self, or even the fact
that people don't care whatother people think they're just
(28:11):
creating or in that mode.
We lose that so quickly.
I think about adolescence andeverything else.
We lose it really quickly.
And then to be able to comeback to yourself and your work
and come back to play in yourwork in these little ways is
just so refreshing.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
There's an important thing there, right, some of us
lose play, yeah, and it's inthose teenage years, and I've
been thinking a lot about thisbecause I have a couple of
nieces that are in that age.
We're there, you know, I thinkone's 12 and the other's 15
right now, and it's been reallyinteresting because I visit them
often and to watch this sort oftransition, and especially from
(28:53):
a play mindset, because, as yousaid before, kids are like I'm
going to go play, I'm going togo do goofy things, we're going
gonna go nuts.
And yet I watched as the oldeststarted having this little bit
of a divide and I think if inthe I started to think about
this and reflect on my own lifeand I'm actually curious if this
was true to you too but therebecomes this point where you
start wanting to be an adult andfor some reason, we decide that
(29:17):
play is not part of that.
And I remember going to beingat the breakfast table or
whatever with my parents oraunts and sitting there and yeah
, so we are going to have thislittle more conversation.
I am an adult and I'm going tonot be silly and playful.
And then 10 minutes lateryou're off playing and you're
being silly.
So you create this interestingdivergent path where you still
want to play as a kid but youalso want to be adult because
you see all this coolresponsibility like I can stay
(29:40):
up later, eat what I want allthese freedoms that come with
adulthood, and somehow you justsee this divergence happen and I
think a lot of folks don'tnecessarily find their way back
to play right, because you'realso in those teenage and those
adolescent years.
You're trying to figure out howyou fit in at school with your
peers.
You figure out who you are, howyou dress a face full of acne
(30:01):
or whatever's going on.
You're also worried about whatpeople think of you, that you're
a little bit more protectedwith who you are and you're not
as free as you were with thatfive or six year old.
this is how we're gonna playright, let's just have a fun
time.
I don't care what anyone thinks.
Now you care what everyonethinks a lot.
And so that transition we justhave to find our way back to
play Again.
It's fun, it's joy, it'screativity, it's learning.
(30:22):
It's learning, it's tryingthings, it's growing.
If you ever want to connect withpeople or make friends in a
very quick way, go find a way toplay with them.
Go play on a sports team.
Go play board games With adultstoo.
One of the cool aspects of thisbook play is they outline
different archetypes as adults,because we play different as we
get older.
Some people want to play sportsand games and things that are
(30:43):
still considered very play like,but to other people, things
like collecting things becomesplay, or collecting experiences
becomes a version of play.
One of my favorites is there'sthe planner, or the director is
one of the terms that Dr Brownuses for one of the archetypes,
and this is the person who lovesto like plan parties or plan
vacations, and they want to putall this stuff together.
I'm like that's not play for me, but for some people apparently
(31:03):
that's really fun.
They can't wait to do that andthat's play for them.
So it's interesting as we getolder too, we can recognize what
play means for and and it'sgoing to be different from
person to person.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Uh, like, running is running play.
It depends why you're running,how.
No, I know, yeah, but to yourpoint, some there's I have a lot
of friends that that isabsolutely play like they, they
live for it, live for it and Iwould just be like shoot me in
the face.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yes, I am totally the planner for fun.
It's so funny because I'm likethe travel planner.
I am the friend people call tofind they want to go to Italy
for 20 days on this type ofbudget.
What can we make happen?
And I figure it out and it'slike a puzzle.
I think it's fun to figure itout.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I love it.
No way, some people love it.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Yeah, exactly, this is just where my joy is versus.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
That's the fun.
Right, as we have unique,different ways.
One of the recommendations ofDr Brown, in the book too, is,
as an adult, if you're notfinding play, is to think about
what you liked as a kid.
What did you like to play?
And go back to some of thatstuff.
Right, and maybe there's playarchetypes that you've not tried
.
It could be.
The explorer is one of the playarchetypes, the collector, the
artist, where just creation isfun.
(32:23):
I think I have a lot of friendsI like to cook.
You know for a lot of otherfriends that experimentation and
creating dishes, that's play.
That could be fun becauseyou're creating something, and
so there's so many things thatcan be played that we can open
our definition.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
We can the play that we can open our definition.
We could broaden it a littlebit into just playing, pretend
or goofing off or being silly.
Yeah, I love that that, thatyou're providing this like
larger framework of what playcan look like and it's not just
what we traditionally think ofas play.
For sure, absolutely was anyoneelse guilty of doing like weird
plays with your cousins, orcreating musicals and then
making your family watch them.
Anyone I think that's just me,just me I used to love to play
like hotel or restaurant.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I used to love to organize things, puzzles like
mel it's interesting to thinkabout.
There's windows to the soulthroughout life and play early
on window can absolutely show upin your adult life as well.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
With the technology tools.
Now, you know my nieces andnephews.
They make movies, they recordand get scripts and all of these
things.
One of the things that alwaysamazes me most is they don't sit
down and think about it.
Let's talk about how this isgoing to work and make a big
plan, which is what adults do.
They're like no, we're justgoing to do it, we're just going
to jump in and figure it out.
It goes back to that like justno hesitation to do, and there's
(33:40):
something empowering about that, there's something so fantastic
about that.
Are you guys familiar with themarshmallow spaghetti exercise?
This is like a corporate thingthat's been done for years.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
No, tell us more.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
It's an interesting exercise.
You basically break up a teaminto groups and you have three
or four people and you give them, like there's three, I would
say three things.
You give them like a box ofspaghetti noodles, marshmallow
and like some tape and that's it.
And the challenge is to be likewho can build the highest tower
out of these spaghetti noodlesand marshmallow and to spoil
(34:13):
what basically happens.
They've done this with MBAstudents and like high-powered
lawyers and all these differenttypes of groups that you'd think
would be really successful, andthe ones who are the most
successful it's five-year-oldsand they come up with the
tallest tower.
Because what happens is theadults as they sit, they think,
they talk, they debate, they goback and forth on what we should
we do, what could we do, whatshould we do?
You have a whole box ofspaghetti noodles and kids just
go, they just start trying stuffand they fail, they try, they
(34:35):
fail, they try, they fail, theytry, they fail, and they get so
much learning done in such ashort period of time that they
finally get a much, much betterending, and yet we adults just
talk ourselves but you're overthinkers yeah, just go do it,
just try it, see what happens atthe team level, day-to-day,
(35:10):
outside of planned events.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
How can leaders really set the tone for an
environment where, let's behonest, there's some real boring
shit we got to do, but it's aday to day or a deal with.
But how can leaders foster thisenvironment of fun or thinking
without our egos or removing theover thing to everyday work
problem?
What can they be doing?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
problem.
What can they be doing?
Part of that is recognizinglike who who on your team might
have a talent at doing this.
There's a new psychometricpersonality exercise out there
called principles this new ray,dalio, adam grant, and but
there's actually a level ofhumor and humor is one of their
traits and what's interesting isthis humor trait not shocking
very high end that peoplethey're more lighthearted, they
tend to want to create and makefun environments, and so I think
(36:04):
a lot of it might be.
If you're a leader, maybe thatisn't your bag.
Find someone whose it is andmaybe give them that
responsibility or ask them tohelp maybe create a more fun
environment or create maybe itis a happy hour or a lunch or
get some ideas out there.
And I think work with the teamtoo right.
I think there's a general.
Some communication shouldhappen before and because there
(36:26):
might be a team that maybe as awhole team doesn't have a lot of
humor and maybe they don't wanta ton of fun.
I do think that every teamshould have some fun.
There's a level, but find thatperson and empower them to do
that I was, I think.
One of the reasons why play hasbeen so central to what I have
done in all of my jobs, nomatter what role I've been in,
is very early on in my career,as I work for and with a lot of
(36:49):
people who did like to use playa lot when I worked in retail
stores in in college.
I consistently work withleaders.
We find ways to to have fun,and so I just think there needs
to be an intent and then findingthe person or people with the
skill set that would like to beable to do that and give it a
try.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
What do you recommend to the leader who wants to
introduce this to theirskeptical team on how they can
use play to innovate or build itinto the workplace?
I know, obviously find theperson on your team who's good
at play, but what do yourecommend if they've never done
this before?
(37:26):
It might not be part of thelarger culture, but it's a
microculture a leader would liketo set up to make their team
highly engaged and productive,more collaborative, more
communicative.
What would you recommend?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
I've yet to come across this.
A team of skeptics is tough,don't get me wrong.
There's probably one or twoskeptics in many groups,
especially if I'm doing a lot oflarger, like 25 to 50 person
group sessions, and there's acouple in that group.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Always.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
You can't avoid it.
But the fun part is, especiallywith the Lego sessions, is it
goes away almost immediately.
It's amazing.
So one trust that the Legomethod itself, actually it'll
just work on its own.
Two, I think it's just askingpeople to be open.
Come in, give it a try.
There's no wrong answer.
(38:14):
Right, you can't do wrong.
You're just going to have legos.
Just be yourself, right?
Yeah, engage however you wantto engage.
I think letting people knowthat the expectation is just
letting them be themselves ismaybe it takes a little bit of
pressure off.
And what I've found is that thecynics usually come around
about 20 minutes into thesession because they're like
they're not sure, but they don'twant to like be the person
(38:36):
who's just not participating.
Right, and they're like, okay,fine, I'll build.
My first build is always builda tower, whatever you want to
build yeah hours.
but something happens whenpeople open that bag of legos
and they start playing, likelittle smiles come to mouth,
they start getting into it andthey're not competing, they're
not building a thing, they'rejust.
They can do whatever they want.
And again their colleagues aresmiling, people are having fun
(39:00):
and there's something about that.
We'll say on the good side oflike group think right, where
you get these people togetherand suddenly, if every, if nine
out of 10 people are laughingand having a good time, that
10th is eventually right.
Even if they want to resist ita little bit, they'll get into
it.
And it always happens becauseI'm just building stuff with
Legos and you got little likeminig figures and at some point
(39:21):
you just can't take yourself tooseriously in that type of
situation.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Yeah, I like that.
We just talked about leadersand then I think about employees
, one of the things Mel and Italk about the future of work
all the time.
We know deeply humanconnections are going to be so
key and things like innovation,creativity, empathy,
capabilities that are trulydifferentiated from AI,
especially around play, becauseplay, to me, is one of those
competencies that incorporateall of these other aspects like
(39:54):
empathy, like creativity, likeinnovation, wrapped in one
Employees being able to advocatefor play or to be able to come
to work with play or know how toincorporate play, is so key.
Yet a lot of people are againworking in ops or in accounting
or in these very kind ofhonestly stodgy places.
(40:15):
So I'm curious as to if youhave an employee that is working
in corporate America, usa, andthey really want to bring play
more into it, what are the firstone or two steps?
I know we talked about themindset earlier, but I am
curious about what's a safe waysomebody can advocate for
bringing play into theirpersonal work more.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
So there's two aspects of that right.
There's the individual side.
It could be even starting witha colleague or two and trying
something right.
Maybe finding a method onlineor again like design thinking is
also a fantastic methodologythat you can take bits and
pieces from to create playful,innovative, unique ways of
approaching things For a broaderteam.
If you have a team, if you're aleader, again, it's taking
(40:58):
those baby steps, it's startingand one anchoring play and
creativity and imagination tohopefully some type of core
value within the organization.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Because I think that matters too.
If you're just a company andall you want to do is yeah, if
your values are to make money,then I don't know that play is
right for you.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
But if you're in a purpose-driven type organization
that truly wants to excel atcustomer experience, employee
experience, making a differencein people's lives and whatever
again, whatever product servicethat you're in and I think most
companies have this right, Ithink most companies have this
right, I think most companiesI've talked to or worked with
there's a level that we want tocreate a place where people like
to work and they create goodproducts and services for our
customers and happy employeesand engaged employees mean happy
(41:40):
and engaged customers and allof that is connected.
I think if you have those, thenplay isn't extremely hard to
get.
It's finding the right methodsthat people can apply to, and it
could be like starting small.
It could be just having alittle bit of fun.
It could be just talking aboutwhat play actually means to
people in the room.
Like, how did you play?
What was your favorite game asa kid?
You could start with somethingas little as that.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Brandon, we have what we call a rapid round.
It's quick questions, it couldbe yes or no or the first thing
you think of.
It could be longer too if it'soh no.
I have more to say about aboutthis.
Are you open to doing a rapidround with us?
Yes, do it.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I feel like I'm on a game show.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
You are a game show okay to have more creativity.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Is it a solo walking situation or brainstorming
situation?
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Oh, it's both.
I think it's both.
Yeah, I am a walker, I lovewalking, get out, it's a
physical movement.
Yeah, our bodies and minds areconnected.
Walking for sure.
But a good brainstorm is funtoo, because you can bring other
people.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, get that outside perspective.
I feel like, francesca, you andI are brainstorming every day
we go through.
Oh my God.
I feel like, francesca, you andI are brainstorming every day
we go through.
Oh my God, we're like whatabout this?
Speaker 3 (43:14):
The problem is we have too many ideas that we have
to be like stick to the plan,yeah, stick to the plan, yeah,
walking brainstorm, though wewould just be on fire, yeah,
that's true, walking brainstorm,I love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
That's a good combo.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Is a playful leader, a better leader.
I'm biased.
I'm gonna say yeah, I would,but that would be by preference,
I think.
Maybe not in general, but forme, yes, for me yeah, I think so
good, okay, best work day, pickme up play activity oh, my gosh
man.
I just just because it popped inmy head, I I would love to go
(43:54):
swing on some monkey bars.
I feel like that would be.
If that was a thing, I wouldjust go do it.
I think generally adults arenot allowed on children's
playgrounds most of the time,but if there was one at my work,
go to this.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
You may just start a new fad.
Instead of all the ping pongtables.
It's a build in jungle game.
I would do that.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
That would be fun.
Have you all tried to be?
I tried the other day becausemy son can do pull-ups.
I have no upper body strength.
I'm like what happened here.
What?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
happened here.
The last time I was at aplayground I really embarrassed
myself because the littleanimals that are like on that
weird bendy thing that you like,so I got on one and flung
myself off because I went alittle too hard.
Can creativity thrive underdeadlines?
Please say yes.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
No, I think so.
I think so Because I thinksometimes pressure can be a good
lever.
So I think back to in my lastjob.
I remember planning a managersummit and this was like a
global thing.
We're already doing it in likeBarcelona and Shanghai, and they
gave me like six weeks to thefirst one at least.
But the pressure summit andthis was like a global thing, we
were already doing it in likeBarcelona and Shanghai, and they
(44:58):
gave me like six weeks to thefirst one at least.
But the pressure forced me toget really creative, to
understand, because we didn'thave objectives or anything like
that, and so it was it did.
It forced me to move and trythings so we could figure out
what worked quickly.
No, I do think so.
I think there's a level ofreason within that If you're
like, do this tonight by 5,that's probably going to kill
creativity.
But yeah, if there's a littlebit of time in there, I think
pressure can help.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Okay, Best creativity booster music or silence.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Can I say I want to say walking.
I feel like I know we said thatbefore, but I think walking and
it could be with music orwithout, I think that's a very
personal preference.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Okay, okay, morning meetings.
Would you provide coffee orgames?
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Ooh both Okay, yeah, again, I think you've really got
to tap into the personalities.
I think there's some peoplethat are like I'm a morning
person, so let's go.
I want coffee and games, but Iknow other people that might
stare daggers at me If there wasno coffee.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
they're like no.
Game is still noon, I'm notshowing up.
Very cool.
I appreciate you answering thisrapid round.
It has been super pleasurableto have you as a guest and we're
so excited to share with ourlisteners all that they can
learn from you from play Brandon.
How can folks get in touch withyou?
Speaker 1 (46:17):
You can get in touch with me via my website.
It's innatecreatescom.
You can also go tobrandonthelegoguycom.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Thanks for joining us .
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Thank you so much for having me Bless, all right, bye
friend, that would be blessed.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
All right, bye, friend.
Hey friends, this episode ofyour Work Friends was hosted by
Francesca Ranieri and myself,mel Plett this episode was
produced and edited by Mel Plettand myself, Francesca Ranieri.
Our theme music is by Pink Zebraand you can follow us over on
all of our social mediaplatforms Instagram, tiktok,
(46:50):
youtube and, if you're soinclined, join us over on
LinkedIn in our large andgrowing community, and you can
email us at friend at your work,friendscom, or visit us on your
work, friendscom.
Also, folks, please like,subscribe and leave a review.
If you enjoyed this episode,and if you really enjoyed it,
please share with a work friendor two.
And a lot of times we need more ideas to come up with
better.
If you ask people for ideas,the first like one to seven or
eight ideas.
Everyone just comes up with thesame things.
They're very similar because wehave a very systematic mind.
For the most part, it's whenyou start getting to idea nine,
10, 11, 12, 13.
And yeah, sometimes we need toget a little bit weird to come
(00:20):
up with that thing.
That is the brilliant idea.
And the more ideas, the morecreativity we can have, the more
imagination, the more we canget out of our own way.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
What's going on, mel?
Not much is going on.
It's finally chilly here.
Last week we had some 80-degreeweather on November 1st, which
was a little strange, but wewent down to the beach to enjoy
it, which was really nice.
How about you?
Very?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
nice, very nice.
I have a bone to pick withevery single person that I grew
up with.
Tell me more, okay.
So we're going back andre-watching these kid movies,
mainly because I have aseven-year-old, and one of the
movies we watched that I justsaw for the first time was
Karate Kid.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I can't get over that .
You're just seeing Karate Kid.
First of all, Listen.
When I meet your parents, Ineed to ask why.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Because my dad felt that the Betamax was superior
technology to the VHS and therewas like one rental store that
actually had Betamax nobloodluster for you.
It was like we finally got it aVHS when it was too late.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
DVDs are coming out, but you finally got the VHS.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yes, 100% the switch.
There was like three months.
Like I just saw Goonies, I justsaw most of the Star.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Wars.
I mean, those are pretty bigones to miss in your childhood.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Going through high school and college with
everybody quoting these moviesetc.
And the quotes from Karate Kidwere always like wax on, wax off
.
Yeah, why is it that no oneever talked about the ending of
that movie?
Because, I swear to God, you gothrough two hours and then all
of a sudden the movie justfreaking ends.
That is the most abrupt endingI've ever had in my life.
(02:08):
You're like wait, what happened?
What if that bit?
I would like to know why no onetalked about the dumb ending of
that movie.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It's the 80s.
Tell you, watching 80s moviesis so funny.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
The choices All right , yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
We had the pleasure of sitting down with Brandon
Wettstein from AnyCreate.
He's just so rad.
He's talking to us about playin the workplace and you and I
have talked about the importanceof play at work, and we're not
talking about forced teambuilding events here at all.
One of the things that reallystands out to me is how the play
(02:44):
part of being at work, havingfun with what you do has been
beaten out of org cultures.
It seems we no longer relax andget to this point where you can
shut off the noise and reallyconnect as a team and get
together and just think aboutwhat's possible.
But there's so many stats thatshow how important play is for
(03:08):
the success of teams and fororganizations.
It nurtures things likecritical thinking, creativity,
it powers innovation, it helpsreally make teams feel connected
.
Breakdown silos increasescollaboration, communication.
The list goes on and on.
What do you think?
The thing that I loved?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
about our conversation with Brandon is,
when you think about play atwork, automatically a lot of
people think ping pong tables,play-doh, etc.
But there are many ways that wecan play at work.
For instance, organizing work,that could be an aspect of play.
If you really get into that,like if you really love to plan
events or organize events, thatcan be an aspect of play.
(03:47):
And really understanding whatplay is to you is critical.
So I loved this conversationbecause, to your point, I think
we've lost play and we can getit back.
You can choose to get it backand reincorporate it into your
work, even if it's not comingfrom your organization 100%.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
This is a goodie.
We leave you guys with somereally good pointers on how to
start thinking about play withinthe org, especially if you're a
leader, how to start nurturingthat with your own teams and the
work that you do.
So with that, here's Brandon.
All right, brandon, could youtell us about your journey and
(04:35):
what inspired you to start inEatCreate?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Oh yes, it's one of those things where whenever you
look backwards, it all makessense Going forward.
You're like what, how did thishappen?
I started my career in retail,working in stores selling
electronics, actually when I wasin college.
When I date myself here, hgtvfirst came out as a giant, huge
TVs and that led me moving intocorporate environments, again in
(04:59):
a very retail.
Most of my career was in retail, both store side and corporate.
And then there was there's likethat epiphany moment that
happens and for me it wasrunning a design thinking
workshop within the operationsgroup at Target, which is one of
the companies that, and thatmoment crystallized my purpose.
And what happened in thatmoment is there was a person who
(05:21):
was on my team, a person whowas a little bit shy, and this
person came a lot in this designthinking workshop right.
Their ideas came up.
It's so much information, somuch energy and I always hold
that moment really close to myheart because I remember how
great it felt to give thatperson an avenue, an arena to to
share, whereas in the normalspace of, especially in
(05:43):
operations, teams like I wasalways in operations and
operators make the fun zoneright.
Yeah, it's the black and whiteright.
There's no gray, and so SOPland yeah.
This was the challenging part ishow do you get creative and
innovative and have some fun,have some joy and get people to
come up with some crazy ideas inoperations when that's not like
(06:06):
the way that they normally workand I shouldn't say they me too
, that was an operator as well,and so I just I love that moment
and that was really acrystallizing piece, and so I
was introduced to Lego seriousplay not too far after that
moment and my curiosity just gotto me on this and I started
pulling the thread and readingsome books.
I never could quite figure outhow to do it on my own.
I wanted to try it, but I justcouldn't.
(06:27):
So I finally got certified in2019 and I fell in love.
I was like this is amazing.
This is the secret to gettinggroups to communicate and
understand and listen to eachother in a fun and playful way,
and so that's why I started at8Create and again, it's been
five years now, which is justamazing to me, and I still love
it.
Every session I do, everyworkshop, every team building,
(06:50):
bringing these methods tovarious teams to help them
connect, communicate andcollaborate differently.
It's just, it's so joyfulbecause it's this unexpected.
We're going to have fun andwe're going to do work like that
possible.
No, that doesn't make any sense, but it is and it works and
it's amazingly impactful and Ican't wait to do it with more
and more companies hopefully therest of my days.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, pretty nice.
I didn't even know you couldget certified in play.
That sounds like a really funprocess to go through.
How was that?
What was that like?
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I'm certified it's very specifically in a
methodology that's called Legoserious play.
I did not make this up.
Lego back in the late ninetieswas really looking at who they
were as a company.
They stood for creativity andimagination they still do but
that's not how they weredeveloping their business
internally.
We have all this creativity andimagination that we're bringing
(07:42):
to the world and to childreneverywhere, but how do we bring
that into our boardroom?
How can we bring creativity andimagination into strategy
really was the question, andthen they spent a few years
building this, playing with it,tweaking with it, and then they
sold it as a consulting servicefor better part of a decade.
Now, as we know of Lego today,they're not a consulting company
.
This is not what they do, andthey know that too, and they
(08:04):
stepped away from it in about2010.
And they did release an opensource document that anyone can
go read.
You can go on Lego's website Ibelieve it's legocom slash
serious play.
There's all sorts ofinformation on there.
However, it's not enough toread and do on your own At least
, for me, it wasn't and so partof the people that ran and
developed this system at Legowere basically gifted some of
(08:25):
the IP and they created more IParound it and they created these
certifications.
There's about two or threedifferent groups out there that
are very well known forcertifications and they all have
different strengths andbackgrounds histories, but it
does help to understand and seehow this comes to life from
someone who knows what they'redoing.
And then, once you have thatand the idea is it's like
drinking from a fire hose Onceyou get done, you're like, oh my
(08:48):
gosh, I could do anything withthis.
There's so many applicationsand ways that you can use it and
people use it for a lot ofdifferent things.
I use it for organizations andteams mostly, but there are some
people that I was certifiedwith that use it for play
therapy.
There's people that half thepeople that were in my
certification class worked inschools, various high schools,
colleges, trying to get studentsto think differently and get
out of their own way.
So it really is a communicationmethodology that allows you to
(09:11):
get out of your own way andbring that creativity and
imagination that Lego wasstriving to bring to really any
type of situation.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I love that.
I also love that yourbackground is in operations,
because when people think ofplay, they think of only the
forced fun, team buildingactivities that happen.
We often hear like the I don'twant forced fun, but that's not
what you're saying, that's notwhat you're talking about here.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I was introduced to it when I was working at Target,
but I know that companies likeNASA, the Department of Defense,
google, apple there's so manyorganizations that have used
this because it's beenscientifically proven.
It's not even just the playfulaspect of it, but there's so
many other psychology like thecommunication pieces, the
mentally offloading informationand physical objects.
All of these things havedifferent types of benefits.
(09:58):
When you combine them, they'rejust new and creative ways to
get people out of their own way.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, can you explain how Innate Create helps
organizations really embraceplay and creativity in the
workplace?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Absolutely, and so the most important part of at
least the workshops and the teambuilding sessions that we do is
that it's not like you're goingto do this and have fun.
It's we're going to create, inessence, a sandbox.
We're going to create theenvironment that allows you to
figure out how you want to playin this space, if that makes
(10:34):
sense.
So with this Lego method, thatis our primary methodology.
There's a couple of keys to it.
One people are building storiesout of Lego bricks, and when I
say building stories, we'rebasically using metaphor and
generally don't introduce itthat way, because a lot of
people hold on metaphor.
Let's back this up a little bit.
No, we're just going to createstories and we start off with a
(10:55):
very basic build just to getthem back into playing with
Legos, Because for a lot ofpeople, they maybe haven't
touched Lego in a long time orthey put away their kids Legos.
It's not necessarily a joyfulthing for them at home.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Or they're like.
I just stepped on a Lego lastnight.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I just bombed all out of my house Exactly, but one of
the key aspects of thismethodology is that the builder
can't be wrong and I'm going tosay that again because it's so
impactful.
The builder can't be wrong.
And so, when you think aboutthis, we're not building
airplanes, we're not buildingcars and trucks.
We're not building things perse, because there's certain
(11:30):
people that I'm sure are muchmore attuned to building things
and coming up with creative Legoideas.
But when you build stories andyou can't be wrong suddenly
whatever you build is up to you,and so some people build these
large, elaborate things.
Some people do build cars andships, and that's fine, but some
people build really abstractthings that you have no idea
what they mean until they tellyou.
(11:51):
And so it gives this freedom topeople to express themselves in
whatever way they would like,and some people will just put
two pieces together and thatwill be their answer to a
question.
And to give you an example of aquestion we might ask and one
of my favorite ones is in ourteam building sessions.
It's just, the main focus isgetting people to know each
other better.
They ask people to build amodel that tells a story about
(12:13):
who they are outside of work.
That's it.
That's it.
It's that simple and there's no.
You can't be wrong and you canchoose right.
Okay, how do you build a modelof oh my gosh, what a huge topic
.
Do I build my hobbies?
Do I build my children, myfamily, the fact that I have a
soup pot and the crock pot,whatever, right, there's no
wrong answer.
And what you get is thisamazing amount of ideas and
(12:34):
thoughts, of insights, andpeople share what they want.
And so that's where I think itreally is different from most
other types of team buildings,because it gives people the
freedom to express themselvesand share whatever they might
want to share.
And it's amazing, the thingsthat come up in these sessions,
too.
You find out.
I did a session in Californiaonce where we found out like
half the group was growingcitrus, like as a whole.
(12:55):
You're like, oh, wow, we're allgrowing citrus, cool, okay.
So they created a little groupafterwards.
Another group I did in DC.
We had a group of five or sixpeople that all had adopted a
dog in the past like six months,and it was just this weird
thing.
We're like no one knew this.
So it's amazing.
There's so much depth anddimensions of who we are outside
of work, but we don'tnecessarily show up and just
(13:15):
talk about ourselves.
It's not socially acceptableand this just gives us an avenue
to share a little bit, but doso in a very psychologically
safe way, do so in a very easyway and, again, each person
decides how much and what theywould like to share.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, I love that.
What's one of the mostrewarding projects you've worked
on since you've been in thisspace?
Because you came from OBS, so Ialways think of those being the
most skeptical folks coming inon this stuff, right.
So is there a skeptic whosemind you changed or someone you
were really nervous about?
That was really rewarding onceyou ran this year workshop.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, one of my favorites is a two and a half or
three hour session with thesenior leadership team of a very
large nonprofit, and we werethere to really dig into
communication, which is shocking.
It's one of the things I getbrought in to talk about a lot
because communication is one ofthose interesting things where
it's very important to talkabout, but it's very sharp right
(14:11):
.
It has a lot of edges, so youhave to watch out how you're
going to talk about it, and soI've got 12 participants in this
group and it was amazing towatch A the variety.
There's a little bit ofskepticism in the room.
There's a little bit ofskepticism in the room.
There's a little bit ofexcitement too, though there
always is, because some peoplelike to play with Legos.
But then the question when youget that level of seniority is
is this fluffy or is this awaste of time?
Are we actually going to getsomething?
(14:33):
And I think the reason why Ilove it so much is A.
It was amazingly impactful.
We really looked at thecommunication journey from a
standpoint of what doesworld-class communication look
like in a senior leadership team, and we got to a point where
everyone had a chance to expresstheir thoughts and their ideas.
Using the Lego models.
We looked at the negative sideof things.
(14:54):
Think of the worst team you'veever worked for.
Build a model that shows whathorrible communication looks
like.
Let's take a look at a model ofwhat amazing communication
looks like.
Let's take a look at whatcommunication looks like from a
psychological safety perspectiveor from a candor perspective.
And we started putting a lot ofthese lenses to it and what
ended up happening is, afterabout two and a half three hours
(15:14):
, we were able to reallypinpoint about three different,
very important point of views onthis leadership team, and that
were there was a group of peoplethat was extremely frustrated
with the level of psychologicalsafety.
They wanted to feel like theywere able to express their
opinions and their thoughts in asafe way.
(15:34):
There was another group ofpeople that felt like there was
a responsibility in everyone inthe group, needed to have a
certain level of candor witheach other.
And then there was anotherperson in the group this was
actually the CEO who really didnot necessarily disagree with
those, but felt like everyonehad a responsibility to really
put in the legwork and theeffort before bringing up ideas,
(15:55):
thoughts or opinions.
So you get these three aspectsall rotating around one another
right.
We need to have candor andspeak our mind and speak up.
We need to be able to feel safeto speak up, but we also need
to put in the due diligence Ifwe're going to bring up an
opinion or a thought or an ideathat we've actually thought
about it right, we're not justwinging it and firing from the
hip.
And the thing is, when you lookat all three of those, they're
(16:15):
all doable.
You just have to have theseexpectations with each other in
that reflection point, and so tobe able to get to that type of
information in two and a half,three hours is amazing, and to
do so in such a fun and playfulway.
And that was that's why that wassuch a favorite for me because
the play aspect.
It really allows people to putaside some of the group dynamics
(16:39):
that stops us fromcommunicating effectively.
You put eight, 10, 12 people ina room.
You're going to have hierarchydifferences, you're going to
have ego differences, you'regoing to have extroversion,
introversion, all of thesethings histories, backgrounds,
all of this comes into play inevery type of meeting and with
this play aspect, especiallywith this Lego serious play
method that gets reducedmassively, if not even
(17:01):
eliminated, because you're sopeople are so focused on the
model that they're building.
And how do I create the storyaround what?
My thoughts are?
That it allows for a much moreopen expression in a very safe
way, but it also keeps thetangents very much out of the
way.
It keeps people very focused onthe topic at hand.
We're not allowing ourselves togo off in one direction or
(17:23):
another, so we can get to thetopic at hand, really understand
where everyone's at.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, it really cuts through some of the dynamics
that might be happening right.
It removes all of the minutiaethat shows up in team dynamics
and it seems really powerful tocome to this joint agreement in
just under two hours on howyou're going to operate as a
team in terms of communicationand idea sharing, which is
really fantastic.
Francesca and I have facilitated, like you, a ton of learning
(17:50):
and sometimes, when you'reworking with teams, those
dynamics especially when you'retalking about how are we going
to operate, how do we prefer towork Like, how do we come
together with different workingstyles and show up as a team
together To your good point someof those dynamics can take the
conversation off the rails andyou start to go down these
routes that are not productiveand not getting to know.
(18:13):
But what can we do together?
So I love the concept of howthis offers a level of focus and
safety for everyone to sharetheir ideas, and it's pretty
impactful to come to a jointleadership agreement on this is
how we're going to operate injust share their ideas, and it's
pretty impactful to come to ajoint leadership agreement on
this is how we're going tooperate in just under two hours,
and everyone feels positiveabout that outcome because they
all contributed in a way that isreally beautiful.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It does From a psychological perspective.
There's a couple of key thingsthat's really fun to see.
So one and this is part of thefacilitation as well is when
people build their model.
So let's say I have my model.
Of course I've got a visual ofAIDS, I've got a little duck in
front of me, but let's say thisis my idea of like world-class
communication is speaking yourmind?
I don't know right.
I could say that that's whatthis, uh, sure, we'll go with
(18:56):
that.
But what happens is, as I'mtalking and usually someone does
build a duck they buildsomething weird and something it
looks like something a fiveyear old might make.
People are generally looking atthe model and not the person,
and so what happens is thatdisplaces the attention onto
whatever the thing is and notdirectly at you, and so it makes
it easier to talk.
(19:16):
One because the attention is onthe model itself, but also, too
, because this idea is out herenow, and so now I'm not talking
about this thing or this opinionthat's in my head, but I'm
talking about this weird littletoy thing.
That's a pile of Legos, whichis not threatening, which is
easy to, it's playful.
Usually there's some funmetaphors going on in there you
can see some physicality,no-transcript, say in the middle
(19:54):
of sessions wow, I didn'treally need to go that deep or I
didn't mean to say that much orI didn't mean to go that far,
but because it's so safe to talk, right, it's usually not a
regretful thing, but it's moreof a reflection.
Oh, I can't believe I just saidthat in this group of people
that I never would have saidthis if we were just having a
verbal discussion.
But it's really.
I think it's empowering too,where people are like oh yeah,
(20:14):
you know what?
I'm glad I said that right,because it is what people truly
think.
They put time into buildingthis model and their thoughts
and their opinions.
And, yeah, they get to takethat psychological safety and
feel a little bit better aboutsharing whatever it is they
might be doing.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I'm wondering about how play shows up when it's not
facilitated.
How play shows up potentiallyat work, or should could show up
at work, and just the dailinessof work.
Why is play essential forsomeone at work?
And just the dailiness of work.
Why is play essential forsomeone at work in general?
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Oh, there's so many.
There's so many good answers tothis that if you think about
play, you go back to childhood.
Right, and here's the fun partIf you want to research, play
and go read books on play, like90% of the books on play, if not
98%, are all about kids.
Because kids, that's what kidsdo, right, it's natural Watch
children.
No one needs to be taught howto play.
They just go, they do it, theyplay pretend, they try things
(21:25):
out, and so play gives us somany different tools.
So one it allows us to trythings right.
And we think about everythingthat's been written about
embracing failure.
Do kids think about failurewhen they try stuff while
playing?
No they just do, and if itdoesn't work out, fine, I
learned, I go on to the nextthing, I go on to the next thing
, I go great.
I think one is trying things,you're able to try things on,
(21:46):
You're able to play, and itgives you a way to experience
something in a very low risktype of scenario.
No-transcript, little bit goofy, being a little bit silly,
(22:28):
allows you to take all of theseborders that we have in our mind
right, all of these boundaries,all of these walls, all of
these rules, and get rid of themand start thinking about things
in different ways than youmight have done before.
One of my favorite exercises isan improv exercise.
I do this with my audience.
I have people pair up and I usean animal of some kind of.
(22:50):
One person gets to be a llamaand the other person gets to be
a lion.
Everyone choose and I'll set atimer for 45 seconds and have
one person say lions are greatbecause X and they have to list
as many things as they can andthey have to say lions are great
because every time so.
Lions are great because theyhave big teeth.
Lions are great because theyhave giant veins.
Lions are great because they'reking of the jungle, and after
about 45 seconds, the otherperson's counting.
(23:11):
We asked the audience how manydid you get?
Seven, eight, nine, 10, 15,whatever the number is.
But then we asked what didpeople say?
And they all said things thatwere true about lions right,
that they are kings of thejungle, that they have, that
they eat meat, whatever thatmight be Like.
Did anyone say that lions aregreat at their taxes?
Did anyone say that lions aregreat because they wear polka
dots on Halloween?
Did anyone say that lions aregreat because they make an
(23:31):
amazing vegetarian chili?
And everyone's, yeah, they startlaughing.
You're like what, wait a minute, hold on.
They're like there's no rulesto this, you can make up
whatever you want.
And so then we flip it aroundand we have the llamas go and we
do the same exact thing, butthis time take off those
limitations that you put onyourself.
Right, with this rule that ithas to actually be true about
lions, and then we watcheveryone do 1.5 to 2.
(23:53):
Times more ideas.
Right, instead of going, I'mjust coming out with as many
ideas as possible.
I'm really trying to think ofwhat is actually true, about why
it's, and so that is just aninteresting framework to think
of.
Okay, so now, when we're tryingto be creative or innovative at
work, what type of rules are weputting in our own way?
And this is where that playfulmindset right.
How do we use play to have morefun, come up with better ideas?
(24:15):
And a lot of times we need moreideas to come up with better.
If you ask people for ideas,the first like one to seven or
eight ideas.
Everyone just comes up with thesame things.
They're very similar because wehave a very systematic mind Not
100%, but for the most partit's when you start getting to
idea nine, 10, 11, 12, 13.
And yeah, sometimes we need toget a little bit weird to come
(24:37):
up with that thing.
That is the brilliant idea.
And the more ideas, the morecreativity we can have, the more
imagination, the more we canget out of our own way.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
You said the mindset of play.
So many times when I thinkabout mindsets it comes down to
a trigger question you can askyourself so you get into the
mindset?
Is there a question you can askyourself to say how do I get
into play?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of different ways to do
this.
One of the things that I do onmy own not shockingly, I use
Legos because I have them, but Iwill actually build out my
thoughts and ideas out of likeon a table.
I'll build it physically, I'llsay this is what I'm doing for
my business plan or my marketingplan or whatever, and I'll
build it out of Lego and havesome fun with it.
Right, and then you can come upwith some ideas.
(25:20):
So that's one aspect to youcould ask a question of and this
is another exercise from designthinking is to give yourself
different prompts of how might Isolve this If I was Walt Disney
?
How might I solve this If I hadno money?
How might I solve this If had atrillion dollars?
Or if I was, pick a name, right, if I was Harvey T Firestone,
(25:40):
how would I solve this?
Or pick anyone, and just giveyourself a different frame and
try to get out of your own way.
And I think that's the hardestpart is right, we know what we
know and we're in our own mindsall the time.
Right, we're here, we're notgoing anywhere, but we have to
(26:11):
recognize when we get in our ownrut.
This question could be verydifferent for different people
and it could be using a physicalmedium, it could be framing
someone else, it could beutilizing music there's so many
different triggers.
But having something and tryingsomething and literally playing
with it is step one.
Each person is probably goingto be a little bit different,
but the fact that you're tryingis probably that first step into
figuring out how each personcan make that true for
themselves.
(26:33):
The cool other part of play isit's fun, right, it can be fun.
The cool other part of play isit's fun, right, it can be fun.
And I think one of the otheraspects is we think about stress
, and especially now we'regetting much smarter about how
the brain reacts to stress andwhat cortisol does to our
creativity.
And yet when we get people in aplayful state, their ideas are
better, they're more creative,they work better together.
(26:55):
And one of the other aspects ofplay that works with especially
with children and adults, iswhen we play with people we
actually connect.
Think of when you play.
There's a wonderful book outthere titled Aptly Play by Dr
Stuart Brown, and he outlineseight attributes of play, and
one of those attributes is adiminished consciousness of self
.
So when we think about how wethink about ourselves, we're in
(27:17):
a stressful board meeting witheight people or 10, and how are
we going to fix this thing?
Everyone's stressed right, andso we're not going to come up
with our best ideas when we'restressed and we're feeling under
pressure.
But if we can deflate that alittle bit and get a little play
and start building off of eachother's ideas and getting that
consciousness of self, insteadof sitting there wondering how
(27:40):
am I being viewed?
How I speak up?
Should I not speak up?
Will I be judged for this?
When we're playing, we're justbringing our full self forward,
and so we connect better, workbetter together.
Everything just gets better.
We have that play aspectattached to it just freaking
refreshing too.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
like I, I have a six-year-old and it's always
amazing to watch him play and toyour very good point, that he
doesn't give a shit about how helooks, if he's feeling, if he's
dirty, if it's the right thingto do or not, and your idea
around to around that diminishedsense of self, or even the fact
that people don't care whatother people think they're just
(28:11):
creating or in that mode.
We lose that so quickly.
I think about adolescence andeverything else.
We lose it really quickly.
And then to be able to comeback to yourself and your work
and come back to play in yourwork in these little ways is
just so refreshing.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
There's an important thing there, right, some of us
lose play, yeah, and it's inthose teenage years, and I've
been thinking a lot about thisbecause I have a couple of
nieces that are in that age.
We're there, you know, I thinkone's 12 and the other's 15
right now, and it's been reallyinteresting because I visit them
often and to watch this sort oftransition, and especially from
(28:53):
a play mindset, because, as yousaid before, kids are like I'm
going to go play, I'm going togo do goofy things, we're going
gonna go nuts.
And yet I watched as the oldeststarted having this little bit
of a divide and I think if inthe I started to think about
this and reflect on my own lifeand I'm actually curious if this
was true to you too but therebecomes this point where you
start wanting to be an adult andfor some reason, we decide that
(29:17):
play is not part of that.
And I remember going to beingat the breakfast table or
whatever with my parents oraunts and sitting there and yeah
, so we are going to have thislittle more conversation.
I am an adult and I'm going tonot be silly and playful.
And then 10 minutes lateryou're off playing and you're
being silly.
So you create this interestingdivergent path where you still
want to play as a kid but youalso want to be adult because
you see all this coolresponsibility like I can stay
(29:40):
up later, eat what I want allthese freedoms that come with
adulthood, and somehow you justsee this divergence happen and I
think a lot of folks don'tnecessarily find their way back
to play right, because you'realso in those teenage and those
adolescent years.
You're trying to figure out howyou fit in at school with your
peers.
You figure out who you are, howyou dress a face full of acne
(30:01):
or whatever's going on.
You're also worried about whatpeople think of you, that you're
a little bit more protectedwith who you are and you're not
as free as you were with thatfive or six year old.
this is how we're gonna playright, let's just have a fun
time.
I don't care what anyone thinks.
Now you care what everyonethinks a lot.
And so that transition we justhave to find our way back to
play Again.
It's fun, it's joy, it'screativity, it's learning.
(30:22):
It's learning, it's tryingthings, it's growing.
If you ever want to connect withpeople or make friends in a
very quick way, go find a way toplay with them.
Go play on a sports team.
Go play board games With adultstoo.
One of the cool aspects of thisbook play is they outline
different archetypes as adults,because we play different as we
get older.
Some people want to play sportsand games and things that are
(30:43):
still considered very play like,but to other people, things
like collecting things becomesplay, or collecting experiences
becomes a version of play.
One of my favorites is there'sthe planner, or the director is
one of the terms that Dr Brownuses for one of the archetypes,
and this is the person who lovesto like plan parties or plan
vacations, and they want to putall this stuff together.
I'm like that's not play for me, but for some people apparently
(31:03):
that's really fun.
They can't wait to do that andthat's play for them.
So it's interesting as we getolder too, we can recognize what
play means for and and it'sgoing to be different from
person to person.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Uh, like, running is running play.
It depends why you're running,how.
No, I know, yeah, but to yourpoint, some there's I have a lot
of friends that that isabsolutely play like they, they
live for it, live for it and Iwould just be like shoot me in
the face.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yes, I am totally the planner for fun.
It's so funny because I'm likethe travel planner.
I am the friend people call tofind they want to go to Italy
for 20 days on this type ofbudget.
What can we make happen?
And I figure it out and it'slike a puzzle.
I think it's fun to figure itout.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I love it.
No way, some people love it.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Yeah, exactly, this is just where my joy is versus.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
That's the fun.
Right, as we have unique,different ways.
One of the recommendations ofDr Brown, in the book too, is,
as an adult, if you're notfinding play, is to think about
what you liked as a kid.
What did you like to play?
And go back to some of thatstuff.
Right, and maybe there's playarchetypes that you've not tried
.
It could be.
The explorer is one of the playarchetypes, the collector, the
artist, where just creation isfun.
(32:23):
I think I have a lot of friendsI like to cook.
You know for a lot of otherfriends that experimentation and
creating dishes, that's play.
That could be fun becauseyou're creating something, and
so there's so many things thatcan be played that we can open
our definition.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
We can the play that we can open our definition.
We could broaden it a littlebit into just playing, pretend
or goofing off or being silly.
Yeah, I love that that, thatyou're providing this like
larger framework of what playcan look like and it's not just
what we traditionally think ofas play.
For sure, absolutely was anyoneelse guilty of doing like weird
plays with your cousins, orcreating musicals and then
making your family watch them.
Anyone I think that's just me,just me I used to love to play
like hotel or restaurant.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I used to love to organize things, puzzles like
mel it's interesting to thinkabout.
There's windows to the soulthroughout life and play early
on window can absolutely show upin your adult life as well.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
With the technology tools.
Now, you know my nieces andnephews.
They make movies, they recordand get scripts and all of these
things.
One of the things that alwaysamazes me most is they don't sit
down and think about it.
Let's talk about how this isgoing to work and make a big
plan, which is what adults do.
They're like no, we're justgoing to do it, we're just going
to jump in and figure it out.
It goes back to that like justno hesitation to do, and there's
(33:40):
something empowering about that, there's something so fantastic
about that.
Are you guys familiar with themarshmallow spaghetti exercise?
This is like a corporate thingthat's been done for years.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
No, tell us more.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
It's an interesting exercise.
You basically break up a teaminto groups and you have three
or four people and you give them, like there's three, I would
say three things.
You give them like a box ofspaghetti noodles, marshmallow
and like some tape and that's it.
And the challenge is to be likewho can build the highest tower
out of these spaghetti noodlesand marshmallow and to spoil
(34:13):
what basically happens.
They've done this with MBAstudents and like high-powered
lawyers and all these differenttypes of groups that you'd think
would be really successful, andthe ones who are the most
successful it's five-year-oldsand they come up with the
tallest tower.
Because what happens is theadults as they sit, they think,
they talk, they debate, they goback and forth on what we should
we do, what could we do, whatshould we do?
You have a whole box ofspaghetti noodles and kids just
go, they just start trying stuffand they fail, they try, they
(34:35):
fail, they try, they fail, theytry, they fail, and they get so
much learning done in such ashort period of time that they
finally get a much, much betterending, and yet we adults just
talk ourselves but you're overthinkers yeah, just go do it,
just try it, see what happens atthe team level, day-to-day,
(35:10):
outside of planned events.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
How can leaders really set the tone for an
environment where, let's behonest, there's some real boring
shit we got to do, but it's aday to day or a deal with.
But how can leaders foster thisenvironment of fun or thinking
without our egos or removing theover thing to everyday work
problem?
What can they be doing?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
problem.
What can they be doing?
Part of that is recognizinglike who who on your team might
have a talent at doing this.
There's a new psychometricpersonality exercise out there
called principles this new ray,dalio, adam grant, and but
there's actually a level ofhumor and humor is one of their
traits and what's interesting isthis humor trait not shocking
very high end that peoplethey're more lighthearted, they
tend to want to create and makefun environments, and so I think
(36:04):
a lot of it might be.
If you're a leader, maybe thatisn't your bag.
Find someone whose it is andmaybe give them that
responsibility or ask them tohelp maybe create a more fun
environment or create maybe itis a happy hour or a lunch or
get some ideas out there.
And I think work with the teamtoo right.
I think there's a general.
Some communication shouldhappen before and because there
(36:26):
might be a team that maybe as awhole team doesn't have a lot of
humor and maybe they don't wanta ton of fun.
I do think that every teamshould have some fun.
There's a level, but find thatperson and empower them to do
that I was, I think.
One of the reasons why play hasbeen so central to what I have
done in all of my jobs, nomatter what role I've been in,
is very early on in my career,as I work for and with a lot of
(36:49):
people who did like to use playa lot when I worked in retail
stores in in college.
I consistently work withleaders.
We find ways to to have fun,and so I just think there needs
to be an intent and then findingthe person or people with the
skill set that would like to beable to do that and give it a
try.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
What do you recommend to the leader who wants to
introduce this to theirskeptical team on how they can
use play to innovate or build itinto the workplace?
I know, obviously find theperson on your team who's good
at play, but what do yourecommend if they've never done
this before?
(37:26):
It might not be part of thelarger culture, but it's a
microculture a leader would liketo set up to make their team
highly engaged and productive,more collaborative, more
communicative.
What would you recommend?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
I've yet to come across this.
A team of skeptics is tough,don't get me wrong.
There's probably one or twoskeptics in many groups,
especially if I'm doing a lot oflarger, like 25 to 50 person
group sessions, and there's acouple in that group.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Always.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
You can't avoid it.
But the fun part is, especiallywith the Lego sessions, is it
goes away almost immediately.
It's amazing.
So one trust that the Legomethod itself, actually it'll
just work on its own.
Two, I think it's just askingpeople to be open.
Come in, give it a try.
There's no wrong answer.
(38:14):
Right, you can't do wrong.
You're just going to have legos.
Just be yourself, right?
Yeah, engage however you wantto engage.
I think letting people knowthat the expectation is just
letting them be themselves ismaybe it takes a little bit of
pressure off.
And what I've found is that thecynics usually come around
about 20 minutes into thesession because they're like
they're not sure, but they don'twant to like be the person
(38:36):
who's just not participating.
Right, and they're like, okay,fine, I'll build.
My first build is always builda tower, whatever you want to
build yeah hours.
but something happens whenpeople open that bag of legos
and they start playing, likelittle smiles come to mouth,
they start getting into it andthey're not competing, they're
not building a thing, they'rejust.
They can do whatever they want.
And again their colleagues aresmiling, people are having fun
(39:00):
and there's something about that.
We'll say on the good side oflike group think right, where
you get these people togetherand suddenly, if every, if nine
out of 10 people are laughingand having a good time, that
10th is eventually right.
Even if they want to resist ita little bit, they'll get into
it.
And it always happens becauseI'm just building stuff with
Legos and you got little likeminig figures and at some point
(39:21):
you just can't take yourself tooseriously in that type of
situation.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Yeah, I like that.
We just talked about leadersand then I think about employees
, one of the things Mel and Italk about the future of work
all the time.
We know deeply humanconnections are going to be so
key and things like innovation,creativity, empathy,
capabilities that are trulydifferentiated from AI,
especially around play, becauseplay, to me, is one of those
competencies that incorporateall of these other aspects like
(39:54):
empathy, like creativity, likeinnovation, wrapped in one
Employees being able to advocatefor play or to be able to come
to work with play or know how toincorporate play, is so key.
Yet a lot of people are againworking in ops or in accounting
or in these very kind ofhonestly stodgy places.
(40:15):
So I'm curious as to if youhave an employee that is working
in corporate America, usa, andthey really want to bring play
more into it, what are the firstone or two steps?
I know we talked about themindset earlier, but I am
curious about what's a safe waysomebody can advocate for
bringing play into theirpersonal work more.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
So there's two aspects of that right.
There's the individual side.
It could be even starting witha colleague or two and trying
something right.
Maybe finding a method onlineor again like design thinking is
also a fantastic methodologythat you can take bits and
pieces from to create playful,innovative, unique ways of
approaching things For a broaderteam.
If you have a team, if you're aleader, again, it's taking
(40:58):
those baby steps, it's startingand one anchoring play and
creativity and imagination tohopefully some type of core
value within the organization.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Because I think that matters too.
If you're just a company andall you want to do is yeah, if
your values are to make money,then I don't know that play is
right for you.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
But if you're in a purpose-driven type organization
that truly wants to excel atcustomer experience, employee
experience, making a differencein people's lives and whatever
again, whatever product servicethat you're in and I think most
companies have this right, Ithink most companies have this
right, I think most companiesI've talked to or worked with
there's a level that we want tocreate a place where people like
to work and they create goodproducts and services for our
customers and happy employeesand engaged employees mean happy
(41:40):
and engaged customers and allof that is connected.
I think if you have those, thenplay isn't extremely hard to
get.
It's finding the right methodsthat people can apply to, and it
could be like starting small.
It could be just having alittle bit of fun.
It could be just talking aboutwhat play actually means to
people in the room.
Like, how did you play?
What was your favorite game asa kid?
You could start with somethingas little as that.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Brandon, we have what we call a rapid round.
It's quick questions, it couldbe yes or no or the first thing
you think of.
It could be longer too if it'soh no.
I have more to say about aboutthis.
Are you open to doing a rapidround with us?
Yes, do it.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I feel like I'm on a game show.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
You are a game show okay to have more creativity.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Is it a solo walking situation or brainstorming
situation?
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Oh, it's both.
I think it's both.
Yeah, I am a walker, I lovewalking, get out, it's a
physical movement.
Yeah, our bodies and minds areconnected.
Walking for sure.
But a good brainstorm is funtoo, because you can bring other
people.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, get that outside perspective.
I feel like, francesca, you andI are brainstorming every day
we go through.
Oh my God.
I feel like, francesca, you andI are brainstorming every day
we go through.
Oh my God, we're like whatabout this?
Speaker 3 (43:14):
The problem is we have too many ideas that we have
to be like stick to the plan,yeah, stick to the plan, yeah,
walking brainstorm, though wewould just be on fire, yeah,
that's true, walking brainstorm,I love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
That's a good combo.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Is a playful leader, a better leader.
I'm biased.
I'm gonna say yeah, I would,but that would be by preference,
I think.
Maybe not in general, but forme, yes, for me yeah, I think so
good, okay, best work day, pickme up play activity oh, my gosh
man.
I just just because it popped inmy head, I I would love to go
(43:54):
swing on some monkey bars.
I feel like that would be.
If that was a thing, I wouldjust go do it.
I think generally adults arenot allowed on children's
playgrounds most of the time,but if there was one at my work,
go to this.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
You may just start a new fad.
Instead of all the ping pongtables.
It's a build in jungle game.
I would do that.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
That would be fun.
Have you all tried to be?
I tried the other day becausemy son can do pull-ups.
I have no upper body strength.
I'm like what happened here.
What?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
happened here.
The last time I was at aplayground I really embarrassed
myself because the littleanimals that are like on that
weird bendy thing that you like,so I got on one and flung
myself off because I went alittle too hard.
Can creativity thrive underdeadlines?
Please say yes.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
No, I think so.
I think so Because I thinksometimes pressure can be a good
lever.
So I think back to in my lastjob.
I remember planning a managersummit and this was like a
global thing.
We're already doing it in likeBarcelona and Shanghai, and they
gave me like six weeks to thefirst one at least.
But the pressure summit andthis was like a global thing, we
were already doing it in likeBarcelona and Shanghai, and they
(44:58):
gave me like six weeks to thefirst one at least.
But the pressure forced me toget really creative, to
understand, because we didn'thave objectives or anything like
that, and so it was it did.
It forced me to move and trythings so we could figure out
what worked quickly.
No, I do think so.
I think there's a level ofreason within that If you're
like, do this tonight by 5,that's probably going to kill
creativity.
But yeah, if there's a littlebit of time in there, I think
pressure can help.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Okay, Best creativity booster music or silence.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Can I say I want to say walking.
I feel like I know we said thatbefore, but I think walking and
it could be with music orwithout, I think that's a very
personal preference.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Okay, okay, morning meetings.
Would you provide coffee orgames?
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Ooh both Okay, yeah, again, I think you've really got
to tap into the personalities.
I think there's some peoplethat are like I'm a morning
person, so let's go.
I want coffee and games, but Iknow other people that might
stare daggers at me If there wasno coffee.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
they're like no.
Game is still noon, I'm notshowing up.
Very cool.
I appreciate you answering thisrapid round.
It has been super pleasurableto have you as a guest and we're
so excited to share with ourlisteners all that they can
learn from you from play Brandon.
How can folks get in touch withyou?
Speaker 1 (46:17):
You can get in touch with me via my website.
It's innatecreatescom.
You can also go tobrandonthelegoguycom.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Thanks for joining us .
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Thank you so much for having me Bless, all right, bye
friend, that would be blessed.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
All right, bye, friend.
Hey friends, this episode ofyour Work Friends was hosted by
Francesca Ranieri and myself,mel Plett this episode was
produced and edited by Mel Plettand myself, Francesca Ranieri.
Our theme music is by Pink Zebraand you can follow us over on
all of our social mediaplatforms Instagram, tiktok,
(46:50):
youtube and, if you're soinclined, join us over on
LinkedIn in our large andgrowing community, and you can
email us at friend at your work,friendscom, or visit us on your
work, friendscom.
Also, folks, please like,subscribe and leave a review.
If you enjoyed this episode,and if you really enjoyed it,
please share with a work friendor two.
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