In this episode, we hang out with Lareina Yee, senior partner at McKinsey and absolute powerhouse who's helping crack the code on women's career advancement. As co-founder of the Women in the Workplace Study and co-author of "The Broken Rung," Lareina breaks down the shocking truth about the earliest career barrier holding women back (hint: it starts way earlier than most of us realize).
We get REAL about why that first promotion is such a make-or-break moment (would you believe for every 100 men promoted, only 81 women get the same opportunity?), why building the right kind of network matters more than just working hard, and how motherhood might actually be your secret career superpower if you play it right. The best part? This isn't just theoretical talk – Lareina shares actual tactical moves that could help achieve gender parity in one generation instead of waiting 150+ years.
Listen for:
- The eye-opening truth about the "broken rung" and why fixing it could slash the gender parity timeline from 150 years to just 10
- Why you absolutely need to grab some "experience capital" (especially P&L roles) if you want serious career advancement
- How to build a powerful sponsorship network even if you're totally not the networking type
- Real strategies for turning parenthood into a career boost instead of a career killer
- The critical difference between being mentored (which most women have plenty of) and being sponsored (which most women desperately lack)
- Practical moves to jump career hurdles no matter where you are on your journey
Episode Highlights
⏰ 5:20 The Broken Rung Reality Check: Where the gender gap actually begins (and it's not where you think)
⏰ 11:45 Experience Capital 101: The business skills that literally determine half your lifetime earnings
⏰ 15:30 Sponsorship vs. Mentorship: Why one coffee chat buddy isn't the same as someone opening actual doors for you
⏰ 22:30 Motherhood Game Plan: Tactical moves to avoid the "motherhood penalty" and maybe even get ahead
⏰ 27:15 Career Pep Talk: Why you're never "off track" – just taking a more interesting route to success
Whether you're just starting out, drowning in the "messy middle," or eyeing that corner office, this conversation gives you an actual playbook for breaking through career barriers at any stage. This isn't just for women either – it's essential listening for anyone who wants to create more equitab
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Mel Plett, talent strategist coach and someone
who survived big law, big fourand more than a few broken org
charts.
I'm Francesca.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I've led people strategy at Nike and Deloitte.
I like my advice how I like mycoffee strong and no bullshit.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We host your work, friends.
The podcast that breaks workdown, so you stay ahead.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
We talk work stuff, the human stuff, the awkward
messy, what the f*** is actuallyhappening stuff.
Each week we drop new episodeswith real talk, smart guests,
fresh insights and straight upadvice.
Hit play.
We've got you Ahas and ahas and, yeah, the occasional F-bomb or
(00:42):
two.
We had a really interestingconversation, we did.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
We were able to speak with Lorena Yee, one of the
co-authors of the Broken Rung.
Lorena is a senior partner atMcKinsey Company and she advises
companies on growth technologyand transformation.
She also co-founded the Womenin the Workplace Study with
leaninorg.
That's what made us reach outto her, as we were fascinated.
(01:10):
We covered that a few monthsago in New Week New Headlines
and then, obviously, the BrokenRung book came out and in that
report they're highlighting allof the challenges that women are
facing in corporate America.
Lorena also chairs McKinsey'sTechnology Council and hosts the
podcast At the Edge, where shetalks about technology trends.
And then, beyond herprofessional role, she's a mom
(01:31):
of three and she serves on theboard of San Francisco's Ballet.
But this was an awesome episode.
She is talking about one of theearliest career barriers that
women face, which is this brokenrung and ways that we can
overcome it together.
In this book I think you and Iboth said it was covered cover
to cover with yellow highlighterfrom all of the stats that we
(01:53):
were reading- yeah, I ran out ofhighlighter while I was reading
this book.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
The thing for me is we've had the glass ceiling.
We know pay parity is not thereyet and probably won't be for
our lifetime, and what was sointeresting was this early
career issue that they havereally nailed on.
Even if you're not early career, even if you're not a woman,
(02:18):
the thing about this book is itis a playbook for how to get
ahead in your career If you're awoman, if you're a man, if
you're gender non-binary.
This book is absolutely packedwith how do you get ahead when
you have everything against you,and it is a must read for
anybody, especially in corporateAmerica.
We love talking with her.
(02:38):
We focus a lot about women here, but I think it can apply to
anybody.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
One of the things that really stood out to me is
this isn't just a playbook.
If you're in your early career,it's identifying when this
starts, but it is.
It does give you information,no matter where you are, whether
you're just starting out,you're in the messy middle or if
you're like towards the end ofin thinking about your next move
.
She gives you ways that you canthink about how to level up.
(03:05):
The other thing for me that wasso interesting was the concept
of if we were able to fix thisbroken rung at the start of a
woman's career, then we couldhave parity in a generation
versus 150 plus years.
So that, to me, was superpowerful.
I'm just going to read a quotefrom the book Lorena mentioned
(03:26):
was this is not just a women'sissue, as you point out.
It's an issue for our wholesociety and the global economy.
So read the book, listen to theepisode.
Here's Lorena.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
All right, loretta.
For those of us that haven'theard about this concept of the
broken run, I'm wondering if youcan explain it to our listeners
, like a five-year-old.
What?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
is the broken run.
You start work, you landed thejob and you find that pretty
much men and women are prettyequal.
When you look around the room,right, 48% women entering the
corporate pipeline in the UnitedStates, for example, and
similarly globally.
But guess what?
Time for the first promotion.
And here's the rub For every100 men who have the odds of
(04:18):
getting that promotion, only 81women see those same odds of
advancement.
And that's the broken rung.
That very first step on thecareer ladder is broken and it
comes up fast.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
What was so interesting to me so much of the
time we're thinking about women, advancement, we're thinking
about it manager on up, how dowe get people to a C-suite or a
VP?
Because it's happening at thismanager level.
We're not getting people intothese upper echelons.
And I thought what's sointeresting about your research
is that this is happening veryearly and if you don't nail it
(04:55):
early or don't look at it early,it has this kind of compounding
effect on your career.
What about that keeps you up atnight?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
your career.
What about that keeps you up atnight?
All of it.
By focusing on the broken rung,I wouldn't want to take
attention away from the factthat people will call that
middle layer, francesca, likethe messy middle, the frozen
middle, that piece of it or theglass ceiling.
Let's be clear that stillexists, and whilst we've made
progress in corporate America,as an example, when I founded
(05:26):
Women in the Workplace, we were19% women reporting to CEOs at
the C-suite.
Now we're at 29%, so we'rereally close to 30.
So that's great, but we're allreally good at math.
That's not parity, that's not50%, that doesn't represent the
population.
So we've got challenges acrossthe whole talent pipeline or
(05:47):
ladder, however you want tovisualize it.
I think the challenge with themiddle, though the math, is that
you've already lost a lot ofwomen, or they've gotten stuck
or they're stalled.
It's not entirely clear exactlywhat happens to all those women
, because some of them don'tleave the workforce altogether,
but let's just say largelystalled and stuck.
(06:09):
So you are already in themiddle, dealing with probably
something around 37% women.
You're already dealing with asmaller population, trying to
put it in slates, so you're justso many steps behind, and I do
think to the early broken rung.
I do think it catches women bysurprise and it may even happen
and they didn't even realize it,because it's not like an exam
(06:31):
where they publish the results.
You don't know where you are onthe curve and it may have been
a delay by a year, six months,two years, or maybe you decided
to go somewhere else and so someof these types of things may
not be completely perceptible,but I think when you talk to
women over the course of 20, 30years in work and they think
(06:51):
back, they're like huh.
And when we look at the datayear over year, it shows that
same phenomenon.
Maybe it's 84 women, maybe it's81, maybe 79.
It's bouncing around a littlebit, but it's nowhere near
parity.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
I want to dive into that.
Why that first promotion?
Why is that so critical forpeople to really focus on?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
There are a lot of things.
One, if you just think of amerit-based view, you want to
actually be rewarded for thework you do.
So there's a simple thing.
There's also financially.
You're not just working to workfor the benefit of society and
you may feel very missionoriented, you may feel very
(07:35):
purpose filled and you may feelincredible pride for what you do
, but you're also there for youreconomic earnings.
And to earn less throughdifferences in promotion is
another type of tax on top of ageneral phenomenon we see in
terms of a wage disparitybetween women and men.
(07:57):
It's another form.
But the other thing is let'sjust think about a talented
woman who, by and large womengraduate at higher rates than
men for undergraduate degreesand by and large, with higher
GPAs.
And so you've got a talentedwoman.
She's doing all the rightthings and missing maybe by a
(08:17):
year, maybe two or three years,that first promotion is missing
her ability to reach her fullprofessional potential, and
careers in life are long andthose delays have almost
compound effects over time.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
And we haven't even hit motherhood yet.
This is the thing that I readin the book the idea of the
motherhood tax, where we'll talkabout it a little bit longer.
But for every kid that someonehas, they get taxed.
More and more Theirathers get abonus for having kids.
It's phenomenal, it'sabsolutely phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I mean, we've all been in the meeting where the
mom is rushing to go to thesoccer game and everyone's like
okay, fine, maybe even non-event, not even like eyebrow raising.
And then the guy is I've got togo.
Same thing, I've got to go,I've got to get to the soccer
game at 430.
And people are like high five,you're amazing.
And, by the way, do I thinkit's amazing that dad is leaving
(09:10):
for the soccer game, a hundredpercent, I'm just saying that.
I equally think it's a highfive moment for the woman to
leave as well.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, it is.
Eye roll for the woman oh,gotta go again.
And then for the guy it's goodfor you, you're such a good dad.
Yeah, you're a leader.
You're a leader.
I want to talk about experiencecapital.
That was one of my favoriteparts of the book because I
agree it's totally needed.
But can you share with ourlisteners what is experience
(09:40):
capital?
Speaker 3 (09:40):
What's that concept?
So the punchline is 50% of yourlifetime earnings come from what
you gain on the job, and thereason this is important is you
look at many women and, as Imentioned earlier, women
outperform in school, theygraduate at higher rates,
particularly in the UnitedStates, and oftentimes they're
graduating with higher GPAs andso they have done the first part
(10:05):
really well.
But when we just look atrepresentation nevermind how the
experience feels, which we havea lot of data on as well, it's
women are not succeeding totheir potential in the workplace
, at least if you look atrepresentation, right, and so
the idea of experience capitalis if you were really great at
(10:25):
school, how do you apply whathelped you be wonderful at
school to managing intentionallyyour portfolio of experiences
that drive both the economicoutcomes for you, your
livelihood, but also yourprofessional opportunities, and
so you think about choosing yourmajor, choosing your classes,
(10:46):
getting an A.
How do you be purposeful inmaking those decisions, in
accumulating the experiencesthat matter, not just the job in
front of you, which certainlyis important, but what is the
accumulation of experience overtime, and can you get it earlier
?
Because it pays to get itearlier often, and bigger.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Can you do that in a way that sets you up really well
for a lifetime of work?
One of the things that youcalled out that I really love
too was, as part of gaining thatexperience capital, was making
sure you gain some of thatexperience capital, unlike the
P&L side of the house and likereally being deep into the
business.
So for anyone listening, p&l,profit and loss, that's one
example.
But what are some of thoseexamples of like business side?
So, say you're, I have a verystrong HR background, by the way
(11:37):
, but to be in strategic HR, Ihad to get that experience
pretty early.
So how can folks who aren'ttraditionally like on that
business side, how can they gainthat very important business
experience capital and what doesthat mean?
How is it different when youthink about the experience
capital you do gain?
How does that differently setthem up financially down the
(11:59):
road?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Sure, Well, let's take your career as an example,
and I might be getting parts ofthat wrong, but you have a
passion for HR and a lot ofwomen will connect with work to
where they feel purpose, wherethey feel talent and being an
aspiring alley, which is a P&Lrole maybe sales, maybe product,
maybe in a business unit.
That experience GM.
But it is to say that havingthat experience short long at
(12:25):
some point will make you betterat whatever you want to do.
The other thing is if youaspire to be a CEO to the chip
(12:57):
tracker idea, the pink chip oneyear we looked at it, 95% of the
CEOs that year we looked at itall came from P&L.
So like virtually impossible,very unlikely, that if you
haven't had P&L experience andyou realize, understandably,
halfway through your career thatyou aspire to be a CEO, this is
(13:19):
going to be a central part.
So that's one experience.
Another piece of experiencecapital is entrepreneurship and
people think that's just being afounder and yes, that's amazing
.
Both of you have founded this.
That's entrepreneurship.
But I bet both of you also wereentrepreneurs in the companies
that you were in before and it'sa huge skill that makes a
(13:40):
difference.
How do you take initiative, howdo you lead?
How do you invent Versus?
Here's the thing that I wasgiven and I've checked all the
boxes, so entrepreneurship is ahuge piece.
The other thing that we talkabout is skill differentiation.
We call that bold moves, and soif you look at one job to a
next job and it could be withinthe same company right, You're
doing different roles.
(14:01):
Bold moves are where you do a25% or more skill difference
between your former job and yournew job, and women who take two
, three big bold moves overtheir career have outsized
impact, both economically aswell as their ability to
progress.
So there are more, but justmaybe to pause, take a deep
(14:21):
breath.
There are a lot of things wecan do that are super concrete
that help us build experiencecapital.
And if you're young in yourcareer gosh, you got to build
that early and often.
And if you're a little older inyour career you know me, or
like middle age, think about theexperience capital you need to
maybe pivot or do something newor to expand even more
(14:44):
opportunities.
It's a huge piece.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
I appreciate that because I think a lot of folks
forget that you can have anentrepreneurial experience while
you're in an organization.
It's like looking for thoseproject opportunities where you
can gain that skill set.
For somebody who might be moreof an introvert I'm an ambivert
right, so it takes a lot ofeffort to reach out for those
(15:08):
experiences and that sort ofthing.
Maybe they don't have a flashyor visible role.
What's a way that they canstart to advocate for themselves
, to begin to build thatexperience capital?
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I think, first of all , you've got to play to your
strengths.
So you may see someone who's anextrovert, very charismatic,
maybe an athlete, so she happensto play golf which tends to be
helpful in a male world andyou're not in all cases.
She's out in the golf courseand you're just like that's not
(15:40):
me and first of all, good forher, she should go with all
those strengths.
But you're like that's not meand first of all, good for her,
she should go with all thestrengths, right.
But you're like how do I meetother people if I'm different?
So I think there's one thingwhich is to know yourself and
build off your strengths.
I remember early in my careerbeing in consulting.
My strength was the data andthe analysis that I was doing
(16:02):
and part of the credibility wasreally just the work itself.
But the work is a basis to havea conversation with others and
a basis to build trust.
And then you start maybebuilding a relationship and
entrepreneurship is following up.
I remember meeting just thisamazing executive and I was like
you're just so like you're arole model, and I didn't say
(16:25):
that.
But then I remember justkeeping in touch with her over
time.
Not a ton, I was whatever,maybe 10 levels more junior to
her, but I remember when I wasleaving Asia, moving back to the
US, she was the last personthat I had kind of coffee with
who was a client, before I left.
(16:45):
You've got to do it in your ownstyle, but I think you do need
to be purposeful and, for thosewho are analytic, write it down.
Write down who do you work with, who you have a connection and
network with, who have youworked with before that you
could rekindle.
If you're kind of customer orclient facing, or if you're
(17:06):
supply chain facing, who'soutside of your organization and
also maybe people from school.
So how do you think aboutbuilding those networks?
And just make sure that we knowthat women tend to have more
narrow, more junior networks.
Just make sure that over timeit's not going to happen
overnight, but over time youinvest in building some more
(17:27):
senior networks.
I know one guy that I talked tojoined this nonprofit board and
I invested my personal time andI spent time and had lunch with
every single board member, allof which were at least a decade
more advanced in their careerthan me, and I built this local
network.
He said so when you join aboard, you join a nonprofit
(17:47):
board.
This is what you should do, andI was like I didn't even think
about that.
I'm so busy just trying to getthrough my day.
It didn't occur to me to likeschedule lunch with each person
on the board, get to know them,build a relationship.
And it was true.
I looked at the list and I waslike I am the most junior person
from a professional person onthis board, so there are lots of
(18:07):
ways you can do it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I think it's.
Yeah, finding your littleavenue is going to be the most
important.
What works for you.
I think folks sometimes canequate being outgoing as the
folks who get the opportunity,but you don't have to fit that
niche to get the same kind ofexperience capital you're
talking about.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
And some really senior people are quite
introverted themselves, right?
So that's not, you would find aconnection.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, you'll find some kinsmanship in that, for
sure.
I wanted to talk about thesponsorship versus mentorship
because something that reallystood out to me in the Women in
the Workplace report was thatwomen are overly mentored and
we're undersponsoredsignificantly.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah.
So one thing is maybe just todefine the difference, because
sometimes I just feel like wedon't have the facts to make the
decision.
So mentorship is Francesca,you're my mentor, I identify
with you.
You go to coffee.
If I have a bad day orsomething didn't happen quite
right on a project, youempathize and you give me some
(19:19):
suggestions on how to thinkabout it.
But, mel, if you're my sponsor,you do everything Francesca
does.
But you also open windows anddoors for me and that may be as
explicit as you are actuallyputting me up for promotion, but
it could be more everydayactions.
Like Mel, you say Lorena, Iknow you've been working really
(19:41):
hard on this.
Why don't you come to themeeting and why don't you
present?
And I remember there's thisreally amazing sponsor we do a
sponsor award at McKinsey andone of the winners.
There's this story that he fakeda bloody nose because he knew
that the client was like, wantedhim to be there.
He faked a bloody nose and hewants her to go so that the
(20:04):
woman partner who is up forsenior partner would present but
also be seen as like supersenior.
It's like he was an actor.
Everybody thought he had abloody nose, medical reason to
leave, but no bloody nose.
He actually was just creatingtruly an opportunity for her to
shine.
By the way, she became one ofthe co-leaders of the client and
(20:26):
all these great things happen.
You can do that on a Tuesday atfour, on a Friday at nine.
These are not hard things andso when you think about, and if
you're senior and you'relistening to this, how do you
open doors and windows forothers?
But it can be very subtlethings that help and it can be
really being there in the momentto say this person should be on
(20:48):
the slate and really helpingyou get promoted or keeping in
touch with you and offering youan opportunity somewhere else.
Women are just under-sponsoredand maybe also it's not as clear
how to develop sponsorrelationships.
But I think it's like women.
If you put your mind to it, youcan do it.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
If you realize this is something that's as important
as delivering your quota orwhatever your MBOs are or OKRs,
and you think about it assomething you do a little bit
every quarter over time you'llhave a really powerful senior
network something that stood outto me in the book was and I'm
(21:37):
paraphrasing, but it wasessentially the biggest issue
with this broken rung is, oncethe first rung is broken, it
just has this compounding sortof domino effect, right, because
now there's less women at eachstage to continue to sponsor
other women up.
But men can be sponsors too nottrying to leave them out of the
conversation, right?
And the other powerful thingthat you said in the book was
(21:57):
that if we can repair this firstrung, it'll help us repair all
of the subsequent rungs, whichcould help us really fix this
issue or bring parity within ageneration, which is huge
because that within onegeneration is 10 years versus
150 years.
But how important issponsorship, or what level of
(22:17):
does sponsorship play, and theimportance of fixing that first
rung?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
All of the above.
So if 70% of the C-suite aremen, then it's really important
that men are sponsors in yournetwork to percent women at the
(22:52):
starting gate.
And then we dropped down in themiddle and the VP layers down
to 38, et cetera, et cetera, andat the top for the SVP layers
and the C-suite, we are at 29%.
So it's almost like a maththing because you just have
fewer women in the talent pooloverall.
So if I were to say I'd like tosee equal men and women on the
slate, that's actually somethingthat is a little hard to
(23:14):
accomplish because you actuallyhave maybe a third, maybe 40%
each level.
You have fewer women.
And so I think if we sometimeswhat we talk about for companies
that are trying to work on thisis you have a funnel, you need
to have a pipe.
So a really healthy companystarts with a percentage of
(23:36):
women and you would have thatsame percentage mirrored across
all the talent levels.
That would be really healthy.
Many years ago I met a techcompany who was like it's just
so hard, et cetera, et cetera.
The classic we don't haveengineers.
But one thing we told them thatreally surprised them.
I said you have a top beginningfunnel problem.
(23:58):
Yeah, you're at something.
I think they were maybe 38, 37%women at the entry, so that's
not good, but interestinglyenough, they had that pipe.
I said so you're doingsomething right really well,
which most of your peers are not, which is you're able to retain
them.
You do have a bit of a drop offat the top, but that's really
(24:19):
amazing.
So for you, if you actuallycould fix the entry level, you
clearly have a culture thatsupports women in a very natural
way.
You are in great shape and theywere like gosh.
I thought we were going to havethis meeting.
You're going to be an awfulreport card and I said, yeah, I
mean you're starting out ranksnot so good, but actually
(24:41):
there's some really good stuffthere.
For companies that want tochange, you have to just take a
look at your data and say, justas you would any kind of
business problem, where would bethe two or three most important
interventions?
Where, if I fix this, it wouldreally change in one generation?
And I think for companies whoare very determined to do this,
it's possible.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
It's interesting too, speaking of what companies can
do, because you mentioned,mckinsey has their sponsorship
award, which I love to hear, andwe've worked in talent forever,
so you always hear about thementorship program, but rarely
do I hear about a formalsponsorship program.
What have you seen work reallywell in terms of programs that
support the sponsorship for thiskind of success?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
I think, a couple things.
It's important to say thatwhilst women tend to feel
over-mentored, under-sponsored,there are men who also feel this
way.
If you de-average it, maybe themen who don't have the classic
archetypical attributes or menof color.
So there can be, when youde-average, lots of people need
(25:47):
this.
So a couple of things.
One is going from a spiritualagreement that sponsorship is a
good idea to actually creating aprogram.
So program means that youactually define mentorship,
sponsorship.
Program means that you actuallytrack the data.
For some you may actually holdthem accountable, not like a
quota, like you have to have Xnumber of sponsor ease or
mentors, but as part of how youthink have to have X number of
(26:07):
sponsorees or mentors, but aspart of how you think of good
leadership, as part of theequation.
If you have the data, if youhave the qualitative and what
you value gets measured in someway.
So I'm not suggesting like a onefor one.
You only get promoted if you'rea sponsor.
We all know that and you allboth know very well.
Like when you think aboutleadership, there's a way that
(26:28):
kind of goes into your reviewsand potentially your
compensation, your feedback, howyou're viewed.
I think you build it in yeah,you built it in a hundred
percent and then you may havesome programs that kind of
activate it.
But I think you really commit toa culture of sponsorship, which
the insane thing to me is ithelps.
(26:53):
It's like your classic allboats rise, everyone benefits
everyone.
And if there are women, as thehuman population will have, who
are not good sponsors, it's good.
They will, as leaders, learn tobe good sponsors.
Men will learn to be goodsponsors and sometimes for men
and I've seen this when they seetheir data and they realize
(27:16):
they don't have a single womanthat they sponsor, they will
autocorrect that themselves.
It's not like they woke up andsaid how can I not have any
women as sponsors?
Sometimes data is like anincredible amount of sunlight
for people to do the right thing.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I want to talk about motherhood and navigating career
transitions with motherhood.
You mentioned in the book thatmotherhood could actually be a
boost to your career, and it'snot something we typically hear.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout how it can boost your
career?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, so that's not an easy thing.
In the chapter we do reallyspend a bit of time on Claudia
Goldman's Nobel Prize economist.
We do want to make sure that alot of the research that she's
done gets proper understandingin terms of biases towards women
and terms of a motherhoodpenalty and all of those things.
(28:20):
With that said, it is hard.
I think part of it wassqueezing out and looking at
stories where women can succeedinside of it and, for me, also a
little bit of a search for theurban legend to see if it's true
.
So one of the stories that yousaw was a woman.
The phrase that I've always usedis make sure you pack a round
(28:41):
trip ticket, not just to leaveto go on parental leave, but
also to come back and to comeback with intention.
Leave to go on parental leave,but also to come back and to
come back with intention.
Part of that would be buildingyour network and thinking about
your skills, moderating yourtime, all these types of things.
And one of the stories in thebook is a woman who was a rising
star lawyer.
As she had her first kid, shemade the decision to actually be
(29:02):
a full-time mom.
She's an amazing mom raisedthree boys.
14 years into that, sheexercised her round trip ticket.
She went back and she did areboarding program.
Some companies, not all, offerthis, but LinkedIn offered it.
She got back into the workforceand is a rising star lawyer at
LinkedIn and I just think thisconcept that we measure it in
(29:28):
very zero one ways Okay, I hadthe baby, I'm having the baby, I
take my paid maternity orparental leave, I come back.
I think there are variations tomake that work for you.
So that's one story that I wasvery inspired by.
The other thing is would you usethe policies as ingredients to
(29:50):
bake your own cake, would yousay?
Look, in my company there's theparental leave and I see a lot
of mostly dual career couples.
We see a lot more of women andmen under 40 are dual career,
whereas baby boomers tend to bemore like a single person
leading the household.
Let's use the woman and thepartner's parental leave to
(30:13):
maximize it.
How do we, how do we go slow,go fast across that portfolio?
Like really sharing with yourpartner the chutes and ladders
of a career?
We see also like how do you usesome of the part-time?
How to use rotations tokickstart your next bold move,
like maybe you're like, okay,I'm going to do the thing that I
(30:33):
really know how to do in anexcellent way and I'm going to
do it at 80%, but then actually,when my littlest one is in
school, hits three, I'm going totake a bold move and I'm going
to do this.
Or, by the way, I'm going toactually invest in a bunch of
technology skills and pilots andthings because I'm going to
make a bold move.
(30:54):
And these are just likeexcessive examples.
How do you apply reallyintentional thinking to that
time as opposed to gosh?
This is just the discount time.
And also back to the networkpoint, I think and I don't think
this is as much in the book,but I think having a peer
(31:14):
network when you're a young momat least for me personally I see
you nodding, being able to callsomeone who was working full
time, who had kids under 10,like me, and just to say I've
had the hardest week in thattime.
I didn't need a sponsor, Ididn't need a mentor, I just
(31:34):
needed a friend to say, yeah,it's really hard with you.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, it's tough, right.
I remember this is a little bitmaybe TMI, but I always go
there is.
I remember I was at the pointwhere I was breastfeeding and I
was still working and shippingmy milk back until it was really
great about that, like freezingit and shipping it back home,
which is amazing and lovely.
But I remember just feelingtouched out, vultured because I
was getting it at work and I wasliterally having the call with
(32:03):
her while my pump was going andI felt totally okay with it.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
But she knew both of my lives and you really do need
that, that feeling of someonegets you A little grace Like I
think you have to set the paceof your own career versus expect
others, and both of you havedone that in your careers.
But there may be times whereyou're like I'm going 60 miles
an hour and by the way I'vestructured it and my
(32:27):
expectations are that, and thenthere are times I'm doubling
down and going super fast andI'm going to do a bold move and
a this and a that, and so Idon't.
I don't think it's a linearclimb and actually when we look
at men who are very successfulunderneath it, it wasn't so I
just.
When we look at men who arevery successful underneath it,
(32:49):
it wasn't so I just I think it's.
We try.
Sometimes perfection can be theenemy of progress.
That phrase and maybe redefinewhat perfection is.
At certain moments of yourcareer, I took a really long
first parental leave and I wasreally fortunate to be in a dual
career situation so I couldafford to.
But I was really young, Iwasn't even 30 yet and I really
(33:14):
I just wanted to learn how to bea mom for a while.
I wanted to take nine monthsoff and at that time paid leave
was not six weeks, single digitsor something like that that's
also betting on yourself andtaking a risk.
It's saying I'm confident thatwhen I'm ready to go back, that
job will be there and I may havemissed something.
(33:38):
But I actually, as a gift notjust to my child but also to
myself, would like to learn howto be a mom for a bit and enjoy
it.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
The beautiful thing about the book, though, is it
does give you the playbook, forif you're going to make those
choices which are totally greatto make that there are other
moves you can make that won'tmake that choice, just like a
lifelong decision to write.
I feel like this idea of theseare your options, these are the
ways you can put it in sixthgear, pull it down to third gear
(34:08):
, make a right turn, make a leftturn and create a beautiful
career for yourself and a greatlife too, because I feel like
I'm not saying you can balanceeverything all the time and have
everything you want, but youcan sure as hell be way more
intentional about it and get towhere you want to go in a way
that maybe was linear to yourpoint.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
And some of those basics matter.
I remember we talk aboutnegotiation.
People always think negotiationis just your pay, by the way,
women tend not to negotiate.
So, hi, pro tip, do negotiate.
But negotiation is also othertypes of things.
So I remember because we didn'thave at the time this was 22
years ago we didn't have thetype of programs and I was
(34:55):
actually not even in the UnitedStates, and so I remember
talking to the office managerand saying look, I know that
this isn't the typical thing,but I'd really like to take nine
months, maybe more off, but Iactually am super committed to
coming back and I will stay intouch.
And when I came back, they werelike that's hard and consulting
(35:18):
, and you were flying out.
And I said, look, just for myfirst thing, back for my first
month, can you just help me dosomething local so that I just
don't get straight on anairplane and whatever that is,
I'll do it.
Any industry, any team, thatwould be such a gift and that's
(35:38):
part of negotiating how you comeback.
He said got it, let's do.
That Turns out to theentrepreneurship we were working
on something that became a hugelocal client and because I
worked on it and worked reallyhard with all these other folks,
some of which I didn't knowalready.
We actually had all these sortof.
I had a year where I didn't geton the airplane, and part of it
(35:59):
is a little bit of a little bitof luck, a little bit of
negotiating, asking that's.
That's a positive negotiation.
I will work really hard, butcould you help me not reduce
travel just for a little bit,and then we'll sort it out.
Just give me a sec to rebase.
I'm still the person that youloved and valued before.
(36:20):
I didn't think at the time.
It takes courage to do that,but it does take some courage to
have that conversation and youdo need to work in an
environment where thatconversation would be received
well, not to make too much ofthe example, but I do think in
the book there are all thesewomen who make it work in spite
of, and so there's a lot of data, mel, as you mentioned, but for
(36:42):
me I think the stories are justreally inspirational about what
are the tactical things theydid to get from A to B.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, a lot of great moves.
I think it's required reading,quite honestly, to think about
how do you really own yourcareer, and own your career as a
woman?
Just you got to read up.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
You got to read up.
Keeping it simple for ourlisteners, especially those who
might be like am I already partof the broken rung?
Do I need to address this?
What's one thing they can donext week to get back on track?
Speaker 3 (37:16):
reframe.
You're not off track.
You are always on track andthere's always opportunity in
front of you, and betting onyourself is always a good bet.
So look ahead and what's yournext move?
Do you want to go to the poweralley?
Do you want to exerciseentrepreneurship?
(37:38):
Do you want to build in theskills that matter for the
future, the 12 millionoccupations that we know will
shift by 2030.
Do you want to increase yournetwork?
Pick one, pick one, just pickone and get started.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
I love that.
I love that concept that you'renever off track.
You're never off track.
Yeah, we're just all taking funside quests.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
How much you have already.
Yeah, I, your portfolio justmay look a little different than
that guy next door to you, andthat's okay.
Really, what are you good at?
What do you have?
Where does that point you?
And then start opening thewindows and doors yourself.
Go get people to help you.
Yeah, I love it.
(38:26):
You can do it.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
What about leaders?
If you're a leader leading ateam and this is information new
and for maybe it's newinformation for somebody
listening today what's somethingthat they can take away or
start to do to analyze and makesure that they're being a good
sponsor or they're recognizingthat they might be holding
(38:48):
people back.
How can they support notholding them back or pushing
them forward?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
The first thing is to maybe just mark a couple of
like a piece of data or storythat that honestly struck you
very authentically.
Doesn't need to be many, justone or two.
And I would go share that witha man and a woman on your team
and just say I was reading thissince stopped me in my tracks.
(39:14):
What do you think?
Do you think we have a fairworkplace?
Do you feel the opportunitiesare the same?
And the man might say I feelover-mentored, under-sponsored.
You're like that's goodfeedback, but pro tip, does any
of this resonate with you?
I just start with that.
(39:35):
Just start locally, in your owncommunity and neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Starting the conversation.
Let's just have theconversation.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Yeah, and I think the other thing a leader can
de-risk what feel like highstakes conversations, and
opening to have the conversation, to listen, to learn, is huge.
There's a story of a woman whowas in the creative arts.
She was in performing arts inNew York and she had an
underlying mindset that if youare creative it's okay to be
disorganized, because that kindof comes with being creative.
(40:11):
And she didn't even know thatthis was an underlying mindset.
But she was super disorganizedand she had her baby a couple
months old and for women whoremember or who have had babies
in that early stage, there'svery few windows.
If you live in New York City,you can get that baby outside
(40:31):
and take the baby for a walkbefore the baby needs to eat and
nap.
And so she missed the wholewindow because she was so
disorganized.
She was like, oh my God,where's the diapers?
Where's this, where's that?
She missed the window and shewas so disorganized she's like,
oh my God, where's the diapers?
Where's this, where's that?
She missed the window.
And then the baby's crying andshe describes and I've talked to
her about this also personallyshe describes looking at this
wonderful child's face andsaying, kiddo, this isn't going
(40:51):
to work.
So not only that's a point ofdeep failure, like I think for
me.
I'm like, oh my god, I wouldhave been in a ball and tears
and like that just sounds awfuland we've all been there.
Anyway, the reason I mentionedthis is because it's a very
relatable moment.
But from that moment, not onlydoes she become really good at
(41:13):
organizing, she builds abusiness to organize other
executives, both men and women.
She writes two New York Timesbestseller books or more, and
she has this whole career whereshe actually helps people with
their operating models, withtheir leadership.
But it starts with the wedge ofwhat was a point of failure
(41:35):
became a point of strength,became a point of building a
business, became a point ofgiving to others and helping
others not organize how they gettheir walks for their babies,
but like thinking about how thesofter skills help you be a
better leader, the full set ofsofter skills.
And she's no longer inperforming arts, she's in
corporate America and I just Ialso just wanted to share that
(41:59):
sometimes both men and women areso afraid to make a mistake and
there's a lot in the zeitgeistabout that.
But I do think you never know,like, how do you take that in as
a pivot point to something elsewe'll run on.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
I'm gonna start with some high-level questions.
They can be one word responses,or one sentence, two sentences,
whatever you feel mostconfident with, but the whole
point is just to get yourimmediate reaction to the
question.
Okay, ready to dive in, ready?
Okay, it's 2030.
What's work going to look like?
It will be AI powered.
Okay, what's one thing aboutcorporate culture you'd like to
(42:48):
see disappear for good?
Bias, thank you.
What's the greatest opportunitythat most organizations are
missing out on right now?
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Women, young women, even better answer.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
What music are you listening to right now?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Oh, I really like Bruno Mars and his
collaborations, many of whichare women artists, but I do
really love the collaborations.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I like his new stuff too.
It's like fun, yeah, so good.
What are you reading, and thatcould be physically reading or
listening to an audio book rightnow?
Speaker 3 (43:25):
I am obsessed with AI podcasts, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
What's your favorite AI podcast?
What do you recommend?
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Oh, I really like no Priors and Training Data from
Sequoia and the Possible podcast.
And of course, I think everyonein tech listens to Hard Fork.
I'd be remiss not to mentionHard Fork, but that's kind of
obvious.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Perfect, who do?
Speaker 3 (43:54):
you really admire the 11% women CEOs of the world
Each and every one of them.
For everything that they'redoing and for being a pioneer
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
We recommend all the time on this podcast that people
start to follow.
I'm sure you do, but theorganization Pink Chip that's
tracking all of the globalfemale CEOs and their success.
So, yeah, any chance I can toplug it, I like to bring it back
up.
Good plug.
Yeah, what's a piece of adviceyou want everyone to know?
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Build your networks make sure they're powerful
networks and people who aregoing to be your personal board
of directors.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
All right.
Last thing, where can listenersfollow?
You stay abreast of all of thegoodness and new research that
you have coming out on thistopic.
What's the what's the best?
Obviously, read the book.
We're going to link to that buthow can they continue to stay
informed beyond reading the book?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
All of our gender and research.
On mckinseycom, you can searchunder my name or just search
under the topics.
We have 10 years of women inthe workplace, so there's a lot
of data in there.
And I'm on LinkedIn and I'vebeen trying to be better at
posting thoughts and sharingthings that are interesting.
You all can give me thefeedback.
(45:15):
You're like, nah, it's notreally working, but it'd be good
if you were more.
But I'm focused on LinkedIn methe feedback.
You're like nah, it's notreally working, but it'd be good
if you were more but I'mfocused on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
This has been so lovely.
Lorena, thank you for joiningus.
Oh, thank you.
Both Appreciate you.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us
myself, mel Plett and FrancescaRanieri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra, andif you loved this conversation
(45:51):
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagrams, so please join usin the socials and if you like
this and you've benefited fromthis episode and you think
someone else can benefit fromthis episode, please rate and
(46:15):
subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye, friends.
I'm Mel Plett, talent strategist coach and someone
who survived big law, big fourand more than a few broken org
charts.
I'm Francesca.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I've led people strategy at Nike and Deloitte.
I like my advice how I like mycoffee strong and no bullshit.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We host your work, friends.
The podcast that breaks workdown, so you stay ahead.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
We talk work stuff, the human stuff, the awkward
messy, what the f*** is actuallyhappening stuff.
Each week we drop new episodeswith real talk, smart guests,
fresh insights and straight upadvice.
Hit play.
We've got you Ahas and ahas and, yeah, the occasional F-bomb or
(00:42):
two.
We had a really interestingconversation, we did.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
We were able to speak with Lorena Yee, one of the
co-authors of the Broken Rung.
Lorena is a senior partner atMcKinsey Company and she advises
companies on growth technologyand transformation.
She also co-founded the Womenin the Workplace Study with
leaninorg.
That's what made us reach outto her, as we were fascinated.
(01:10):
We covered that a few monthsago in New Week New Headlines
and then, obviously, the BrokenRung book came out and in that
report they're highlighting allof the challenges that women are
facing in corporate America.
Lorena also chairs McKinsey'sTechnology Council and hosts the
podcast At the Edge, where shetalks about technology trends.
And then, beyond herprofessional role, she's a mom
(01:31):
of three and she serves on theboard of San Francisco's Ballet.
But this was an awesome episode.
She is talking about one of theearliest career barriers that
women face, which is this brokenrung and ways that we can
overcome it together.
In this book I think you and Iboth said it was covered cover
to cover with yellow highlighterfrom all of the stats that we
(01:53):
were reading- yeah, I ran out ofhighlighter while I was reading
this book.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
The thing for me is we've had the glass ceiling.
We know pay parity is not thereyet and probably won't be for
our lifetime, and what was sointeresting was this early
career issue that they havereally nailed on.
Even if you're not early career, even if you're not a woman,
(02:18):
the thing about this book is itis a playbook for how to get
ahead in your career If you're awoman, if you're a man, if
you're gender non-binary.
This book is absolutely packedwith how do you get ahead when
you have everything against you,and it is a must read for
anybody, especially in corporateAmerica.
We love talking with her.
(02:38):
We focus a lot about women here, but I think it can apply to
anybody.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
One of the things that really stood out to me is
this isn't just a playbook.
If you're in your early career,it's identifying when this
starts, but it is.
It does give you information,no matter where you are, whether
you're just starting out,you're in the messy middle or if
you're like towards the end ofin thinking about your next move
.
She gives you ways that you canthink about how to level up.
(03:05):
The other thing for me that wasso interesting was the concept
of if we were able to fix thisbroken rung at the start of a
woman's career, then we couldhave parity in a generation
versus 150 plus years.
So that, to me, was superpowerful.
I'm just going to read a quotefrom the book Lorena mentioned
(03:26):
was this is not just a women'sissue, as you point out.
It's an issue for our wholesociety and the global economy.
So read the book, listen to theepisode.
Here's Lorena.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
All right, loretta.
For those of us that haven'theard about this concept of the
broken run, I'm wondering if youcan explain it to our listeners
, like a five-year-old.
What?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
is the broken run.
You start work, you landed thejob and you find that pretty
much men and women are prettyequal.
When you look around the room,right, 48% women entering the
corporate pipeline in the UnitedStates, for example, and
similarly globally.
But guess what?
Time for the first promotion.
And here's the rub For every100 men who have the odds of
(04:18):
getting that promotion, only 81women see those same odds of
advancement.
And that's the broken rung.
That very first step on thecareer ladder is broken and it
comes up fast.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
What was so interesting to me so much of the
time we're thinking about women, advancement, we're thinking
about it manager on up, how dowe get people to a C-suite or a
VP?
Because it's happening at thismanager level.
We're not getting people intothese upper echelons.
And I thought what's sointeresting about your research
is that this is happening veryearly and if you don't nail it
(04:55):
early or don't look at it early,it has this kind of compounding
effect on your career.
What about that keeps you up atnight?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
your career.
What about that keeps you up atnight?
All of it.
By focusing on the broken rung,I wouldn't want to take
attention away from the factthat people will call that
middle layer, francesca, likethe messy middle, the frozen
middle, that piece of it or theglass ceiling.
Let's be clear that stillexists, and whilst we've made
progress in corporate America,as an example, when I founded
(05:26):
Women in the Workplace, we were19% women reporting to CEOs at
the C-suite.
Now we're at 29%, so we'rereally close to 30.
So that's great, but we're allreally good at math.
That's not parity, that's not50%, that doesn't represent the
population.
So we've got challenges acrossthe whole talent pipeline or
(05:47):
ladder, however you want tovisualize it.
I think the challenge with themiddle, though the math, is that
you've already lost a lot ofwomen, or they've gotten stuck
or they're stalled.
It's not entirely clear exactlywhat happens to all those women
, because some of them don'tleave the workforce altogether,
but let's just say largelystalled and stuck.
(06:09):
So you are already in themiddle, dealing with probably
something around 37% women.
You're already dealing with asmaller population, trying to
put it in slates, so you're justso many steps behind, and I do
think to the early broken rung.
I do think it catches women bysurprise and it may even happen
and they didn't even realize it,because it's not like an exam
(06:31):
where they publish the results.
You don't know where you are onthe curve and it may have been
a delay by a year, six months,two years, or maybe you decided
to go somewhere else and so someof these types of things may
not be completely perceptible,but I think when you talk to
women over the course of 20, 30years in work and they think
(06:51):
back, they're like huh.
And when we look at the datayear over year, it shows that
same phenomenon.
Maybe it's 84 women, maybe it's81, maybe 79.
It's bouncing around a littlebit, but it's nowhere near
parity.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
I want to dive into that.
Why that first promotion?
Why is that so critical forpeople to really focus on?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
There are a lot of things.
One, if you just think of amerit-based view, you want to
actually be rewarded for thework you do.
So there's a simple thing.
There's also financially.
You're not just working to workfor the benefit of society and
you may feel very missionoriented, you may feel very
(07:35):
purpose filled and you may feelincredible pride for what you do
, but you're also there for youreconomic earnings.
And to earn less throughdifferences in promotion is
another type of tax on top of ageneral phenomenon we see in
terms of a wage disparitybetween women and men.
(07:57):
It's another form.
But the other thing is let'sjust think about a talented
woman who, by and large womengraduate at higher rates than
men for undergraduate degreesand by and large, with higher
GPAs.
And so you've got a talentedwoman.
She's doing all the rightthings and missing maybe by a
(08:17):
year, maybe two or three years,that first promotion is missing
her ability to reach her fullprofessional potential, and
careers in life are long andthose delays have almost
compound effects over time.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
And we haven't even hit motherhood yet.
This is the thing that I readin the book the idea of the
motherhood tax, where we'll talkabout it a little bit longer.
But for every kid that someonehas, they get taxed.
More and more Theirathers get abonus for having kids.
It's phenomenal, it'sabsolutely phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I mean, we've all been in the meeting where the
mom is rushing to go to thesoccer game and everyone's like
okay, fine, maybe even non-event, not even like eyebrow raising.
And then the guy is I've got togo.
Same thing, I've got to go,I've got to get to the soccer
game at 430.
And people are like high five,you're amazing.
And, by the way, do I thinkit's amazing that dad is leaving
(09:10):
for the soccer game, a hundredpercent, I'm just saying that.
I equally think it's a highfive moment for the woman to
leave as well.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, it is.
Eye roll for the woman oh,gotta go again.
And then for the guy it's goodfor you, you're such a good dad.
Yeah, you're a leader.
You're a leader.
I want to talk about experiencecapital.
That was one of my favoriteparts of the book because I
agree it's totally needed.
But can you share with ourlisteners what is experience
(09:40):
capital?
Speaker 3 (09:40):
What's that concept?
So the punchline is 50% of yourlifetime earnings come from what
you gain on the job, and thereason this is important is you
look at many women and, as Imentioned earlier, women
outperform in school, theygraduate at higher rates,
particularly in the UnitedStates, and oftentimes they're
graduating with higher GPAs andso they have done the first part
(10:05):
really well.
But when we just look atrepresentation nevermind how the
experience feels, which we havea lot of data on as well, it's
women are not succeeding totheir potential in the workplace
, at least if you look atrepresentation, right, and so
the idea of experience capitalis if you were really great at
(10:25):
school, how do you apply whathelped you be wonderful at
school to managing intentionallyyour portfolio of experiences
that drive both the economicoutcomes for you, your
livelihood, but also yourprofessional opportunities, and
so you think about choosing yourmajor, choosing your classes,
(10:46):
getting an A.
How do you be purposeful inmaking those decisions, in
accumulating the experiencesthat matter, not just the job in
front of you, which certainlyis important, but what is the
accumulation of experience overtime, and can you get it earlier
?
Because it pays to get itearlier often, and bigger.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Can you do that in a way that sets you up really well
for a lifetime of work?
One of the things that youcalled out that I really love
too was, as part of gaining thatexperience capital, was making
sure you gain some of thatexperience capital, unlike the
P&L side of the house and likereally being deep into the
business.
So for anyone listening, p&l,profit and loss, that's one
example.
But what are some of thoseexamples of like business side?
So, say you're, I have a verystrong HR background, by the way
(11:37):
, but to be in strategic HR, Ihad to get that experience
pretty early.
So how can folks who aren'ttraditionally like on that
business side, how can they gainthat very important business
experience capital and what doesthat mean?
How is it different when youthink about the experience
capital you do gain?
How does that differently setthem up financially down the
(11:59):
road?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Sure, Well, let's take your career as an example,
and I might be getting parts ofthat wrong, but you have a
passion for HR and a lot ofwomen will connect with work to
where they feel purpose, wherethey feel talent and being an
aspiring alley, which is a P&Lrole maybe sales, maybe product,
maybe in a business unit.
That experience GM.
But it is to say that havingthat experience short long at
(12:25):
some point will make you betterat whatever you want to do.
The other thing is if youaspire to be a CEO to the chip
(12:57):
tracker idea, the pink chip oneyear we looked at it, 95% of the
CEOs that year we looked at itall came from P&L.
So like virtually impossible,very unlikely, that if you
haven't had P&L experience andyou realize, understandably,
halfway through your career thatyou aspire to be a CEO, this is
(13:19):
going to be a central part.
So that's one experience.
Another piece of experiencecapital is entrepreneurship and
people think that's just being afounder and yes, that's amazing
.
Both of you have founded this.
That's entrepreneurship.
But I bet both of you also wereentrepreneurs in the companies
that you were in before and it'sa huge skill that makes a
(13:40):
difference.
How do you take initiative, howdo you lead?
How do you invent Versus?
Here's the thing that I wasgiven and I've checked all the
boxes, so entrepreneurship is ahuge piece.
The other thing that we talkabout is skill differentiation.
We call that bold moves, and soif you look at one job to a
next job and it could be withinthe same company right, You're
doing different roles.
(14:01):
Bold moves are where you do a25% or more skill difference
between your former job and yournew job, and women who take two
, three big bold moves overtheir career have outsized
impact, both economically aswell as their ability to
progress.
So there are more, but justmaybe to pause, take a deep
(14:21):
breath.
There are a lot of things wecan do that are super concrete
that help us build experiencecapital.
And if you're young in yourcareer gosh, you got to build
that early and often.
And if you're a little older inyour career you know me, or
like middle age, think about theexperience capital you need to
maybe pivot or do something newor to expand even more
(14:44):
opportunities.
It's a huge piece.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
I appreciate that because I think a lot of folks
forget that you can have anentrepreneurial experience while
you're in an organization.
It's like looking for thoseproject opportunities where you
can gain that skill set.
For somebody who might be moreof an introvert I'm an ambivert
right, so it takes a lot ofeffort to reach out for those
(15:08):
experiences and that sort ofthing.
Maybe they don't have a flashyor visible role.
What's a way that they canstart to advocate for themselves
, to begin to build thatexperience capital?
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I think, first of all , you've got to play to your
strengths.
So you may see someone who's anextrovert, very charismatic,
maybe an athlete, so she happensto play golf which tends to be
helpful in a male world andyou're not in all cases.
She's out in the golf courseand you're just like that's not
(15:40):
me and first of all, good forher, she should go with all
those strengths.
But you're like that's not meand first of all, good for her,
she should go with all thestrengths, right.
But you're like how do I meetother people if I'm different?
So I think there's one thingwhich is to know yourself and
build off your strengths.
I remember early in my careerbeing in consulting.
My strength was the data andthe analysis that I was doing
(16:02):
and part of the credibility wasreally just the work itself.
But the work is a basis to havea conversation with others and
a basis to build trust.
And then you start maybebuilding a relationship and
entrepreneurship is following up.
I remember meeting just thisamazing executive and I was like
you're just so like you're arole model, and I didn't say
(16:25):
that.
But then I remember justkeeping in touch with her over
time.
Not a ton, I was whatever,maybe 10 levels more junior to
her, but I remember when I wasleaving Asia, moving back to the
US, she was the last personthat I had kind of coffee with
who was a client, before I left.
(16:45):
You've got to do it in your ownstyle, but I think you do need
to be purposeful and, for thosewho are analytic, write it down.
Write down who do you work with, who you have a connection and
network with, who have youworked with before that you
could rekindle.
If you're kind of customer orclient facing, or if you're
(17:06):
supply chain facing, who'soutside of your organization and
also maybe people from school.
So how do you think aboutbuilding those networks?
And just make sure that we knowthat women tend to have more
narrow, more junior networks.
Just make sure that over timeit's not going to happen
overnight, but over time youinvest in building some more
(17:27):
senior networks.
I know one guy that I talked tojoined this nonprofit board and
I invested my personal time andI spent time and had lunch with
every single board member, allof which were at least a decade
more advanced in their careerthan me, and I built this local
network.
He said so when you join aboard, you join a nonprofit
(17:47):
board.
This is what you should do, andI was like I didn't even think
about that.
I'm so busy just trying to getthrough my day.
It didn't occur to me to likeschedule lunch with each person
on the board, get to know them,build a relationship.
And it was true.
I looked at the list and I waslike I am the most junior person
from a professional person onthis board, so there are lots of
(18:07):
ways you can do it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I think it's.
Yeah, finding your littleavenue is going to be the most
important.
What works for you.
I think folks sometimes canequate being outgoing as the
folks who get the opportunity,but you don't have to fit that
niche to get the same kind ofexperience capital you're
talking about.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
And some really senior people are quite
introverted themselves, right?
So that's not, you would find aconnection.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, you'll find some kinsmanship in that, for
sure.
I wanted to talk about thesponsorship versus mentorship
because something that reallystood out to me in the Women in
the Workplace report was thatwomen are overly mentored and
we're undersponsoredsignificantly.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah.
So one thing is maybe just todefine the difference, because
sometimes I just feel like wedon't have the facts to make the
decision.
So mentorship is Francesca,you're my mentor, I identify
with you.
You go to coffee.
If I have a bad day orsomething didn't happen quite
right on a project, youempathize and you give me some
(19:19):
suggestions on how to thinkabout it.
But, mel, if you're my sponsor,you do everything Francesca
does.
But you also open windows anddoors for me and that may be as
explicit as you are actuallyputting me up for promotion, but
it could be more everydayactions.
Like Mel, you say Lorena, Iknow you've been working really
(19:41):
hard on this.
Why don't you come to themeeting and why don't you
present?
And I remember there's thisreally amazing sponsor we do a
sponsor award at McKinsey andone of the winners.
There's this story that he fakeda bloody nose because he knew
that the client was like, wantedhim to be there.
He faked a bloody nose and hewants her to go so that the
(20:04):
woman partner who is up forsenior partner would present but
also be seen as like supersenior.
It's like he was an actor.
Everybody thought he had abloody nose, medical reason to
leave, but no bloody nose.
He actually was just creatingtruly an opportunity for her to
shine.
By the way, she became one ofthe co-leaders of the client and
(20:26):
all these great things happen.
You can do that on a Tuesday atfour, on a Friday at nine.
These are not hard things andso when you think about, and if
you're senior and you'relistening to this, how do you
open doors and windows forothers?
But it can be very subtlethings that help and it can be
really being there in the momentto say this person should be on
(20:48):
the slate and really helpingyou get promoted or keeping in
touch with you and offering youan opportunity somewhere else.
Women are just under-sponsoredand maybe also it's not as clear
how to develop sponsorrelationships.
But I think it's like women.
If you put your mind to it, youcan do it.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
If you realize this is something that's as important
as delivering your quota orwhatever your MBOs are or OKRs,
and you think about it assomething you do a little bit
every quarter over time you'llhave a really powerful senior
network something that stood outto me in the book was and I'm
(21:37):
paraphrasing, but it wasessentially the biggest issue
with this broken rung is, oncethe first rung is broken, it
just has this compounding sortof domino effect, right, because
now there's less women at eachstage to continue to sponsor
other women up.
But men can be sponsors too nottrying to leave them out of the
conversation, right?
And the other powerful thingthat you said in the book was
(21:57):
that if we can repair this firstrung, it'll help us repair all
of the subsequent rungs, whichcould help us really fix this
issue or bring parity within ageneration, which is huge
because that within onegeneration is 10 years versus
150 years.
But how important issponsorship, or what level of
(22:17):
does sponsorship play, and theimportance of fixing that first
rung?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
All of the above.
So if 70% of the C-suite aremen, then it's really important
that men are sponsors in yournetwork to percent women at the
(22:52):
starting gate.
And then we dropped down in themiddle and the VP layers down
to 38, et cetera, et cetera, andat the top for the SVP layers
and the C-suite, we are at 29%.
So it's almost like a maththing because you just have
fewer women in the talent pooloverall.
So if I were to say I'd like tosee equal men and women on the
slate, that's actually somethingthat is a little hard to
(23:14):
accomplish because you actuallyhave maybe a third, maybe 40%
each level.
You have fewer women.
And so I think if we sometimeswhat we talk about for companies
that are trying to work on thisis you have a funnel, you need
to have a pipe.
So a really healthy companystarts with a percentage of
(23:36):
women and you would have thatsame percentage mirrored across
all the talent levels.
That would be really healthy.
Many years ago I met a techcompany who was like it's just
so hard, et cetera, et cetera.
The classic we don't haveengineers.
But one thing we told them thatreally surprised them.
I said you have a top beginningfunnel problem.
(23:58):
Yeah, you're at something.
I think they were maybe 38, 37%women at the entry, so that's
not good, but interestinglyenough, they had that pipe.
I said so you're doingsomething right really well,
which most of your peers are not, which is you're able to retain
them.
You do have a bit of a drop offat the top, but that's really
(24:19):
amazing.
So for you, if you actuallycould fix the entry level, you
clearly have a culture thatsupports women in a very natural
way.
You are in great shape and theywere like gosh.
I thought we were going to havethis meeting.
You're going to be an awfulreport card and I said, yeah, I
mean you're starting out ranksnot so good, but actually
(24:41):
there's some really good stuffthere.
For companies that want tochange, you have to just take a
look at your data and say, justas you would any kind of
business problem, where would bethe two or three most important
interventions?
Where, if I fix this, it wouldreally change in one generation?
And I think for companies whoare very determined to do this,
it's possible.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
It's interesting too, speaking of what companies can
do, because you mentioned,mckinsey has their sponsorship
award, which I love to hear, andwe've worked in talent forever,
so you always hear about thementorship program, but rarely
do I hear about a formalsponsorship program.
What have you seen work reallywell in terms of programs that
support the sponsorship for thiskind of success?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
I think, a couple things.
It's important to say thatwhilst women tend to feel
over-mentored, under-sponsored,there are men who also feel this
way.
If you de-average it, maybe themen who don't have the classic
archetypical attributes or menof color.
So there can be, when youde-average, lots of people need
(25:47):
this.
So a couple of things.
One is going from a spiritualagreement that sponsorship is a
good idea to actually creating aprogram.
So program means that youactually define mentorship,
sponsorship.
Program means that you actuallytrack the data.
For some you may actually holdthem accountable, not like a
quota, like you have to have Xnumber of sponsor ease or
mentors, but as part of how youthink have to have X number of
(26:07):
sponsorees or mentors, but aspart of how you think of good
leadership, as part of theequation.
If you have the data, if youhave the qualitative and what
you value gets measured in someway.
So I'm not suggesting like a onefor one.
You only get promoted if you'rea sponsor.
We all know that and you allboth know very well.
Like when you think aboutleadership, there's a way that
(26:28):
kind of goes into your reviewsand potentially your
compensation, your feedback, howyou're viewed.
I think you build it in yeah,you built it in a hundred
percent and then you may havesome programs that kind of
activate it.
But I think you really commit toa culture of sponsorship, which
the insane thing to me is ithelps.
(26:53):
It's like your classic allboats rise, everyone benefits
everyone.
And if there are women, as thehuman population will have, who
are not good sponsors, it's good.
They will, as leaders, learn tobe good sponsors.
Men will learn to be goodsponsors and sometimes for men
and I've seen this when they seetheir data and they realize
(27:16):
they don't have a single womanthat they sponsor, they will
autocorrect that themselves.
It's not like they woke up andsaid how can I not have any
women as sponsors?
Sometimes data is like anincredible amount of sunlight
for people to do the right thing.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I want to talk about motherhood and navigating career
transitions with motherhood.
You mentioned in the book thatmotherhood could actually be a
boost to your career, and it'snot something we typically hear.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout how it can boost your
career?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, so that's not an easy thing.
In the chapter we do reallyspend a bit of time on Claudia
Goldman's Nobel Prize economist.
We do want to make sure that alot of the research that she's
done gets proper understandingin terms of biases towards women
and terms of a motherhoodpenalty and all of those things.
(28:20):
With that said, it is hard.
I think part of it wassqueezing out and looking at
stories where women can succeedinside of it and, for me, also a
little bit of a search for theurban legend to see if it's true
.
So one of the stories that yousaw was a woman.
The phrase that I've always usedis make sure you pack a round
(28:41):
trip ticket, not just to leaveto go on parental leave, but
also to come back and to comeback with intention.
Leave to go on parental leave,but also to come back and to
come back with intention.
Part of that would be buildingyour network and thinking about
your skills, moderating yourtime, all these types of things.
And one of the stories in thebook is a woman who was a rising
star lawyer.
As she had her first kid, shemade the decision to actually be
(29:02):
a full-time mom.
She's an amazing mom raisedthree boys.
14 years into that, sheexercised her round trip ticket.
She went back and she did areboarding program.
Some companies, not all, offerthis, but LinkedIn offered it.
She got back into the workforceand is a rising star lawyer at
LinkedIn and I just think thisconcept that we measure it in
(29:28):
very zero one ways Okay, I hadthe baby, I'm having the baby, I
take my paid maternity orparental leave, I come back.
I think there are variations tomake that work for you.
So that's one story that I wasvery inspired by.
The other thing is would you usethe policies as ingredients to
(29:50):
bake your own cake, would yousay?
Look, in my company there's theparental leave and I see a lot
of mostly dual career couples.
We see a lot more of women andmen under 40 are dual career,
whereas baby boomers tend to bemore like a single person
leading the household.
Let's use the woman and thepartner's parental leave to
(30:13):
maximize it.
How do we, how do we go slow,go fast across that portfolio?
Like really sharing with yourpartner the chutes and ladders
of a career?
We see also like how do you usesome of the part-time?
How to use rotations tokickstart your next bold move,
like maybe you're like, okay,I'm going to do the thing that I
(30:33):
really know how to do in anexcellent way and I'm going to
do it at 80%, but then actually,when my littlest one is in
school, hits three, I'm going totake a bold move and I'm going
to do this.
Or, by the way, I'm going toactually invest in a bunch of
technology skills and pilots andthings because I'm going to
make a bold move.
(30:54):
And these are just likeexcessive examples.
How do you apply reallyintentional thinking to that
time as opposed to gosh?
This is just the discount time.
And also back to the networkpoint, I think and I don't think
this is as much in the book,but I think having a peer
(31:14):
network when you're a young momat least for me personally I see
you nodding, being able to callsomeone who was working full
time, who had kids under 10,like me, and just to say I've
had the hardest week in thattime.
I didn't need a sponsor, Ididn't need a mentor, I just
(31:34):
needed a friend to say, yeah,it's really hard with you.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, it's tough, right.
I remember this is a little bitmaybe TMI, but I always go
there is.
I remember I was at the pointwhere I was breastfeeding and I
was still working and shippingmy milk back until it was really
great about that, like freezingit and shipping it back home,
which is amazing and lovely.
But I remember just feelingtouched out, vultured because I
was getting it at work and I wasliterally having the call with
(32:03):
her while my pump was going andI felt totally okay with it.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
But she knew both of my lives and you really do need
that, that feeling of someonegets you A little grace Like I
think you have to set the paceof your own career versus expect
others, and both of you havedone that in your careers.
But there may be times whereyou're like I'm going 60 miles
an hour and by the way I'vestructured it and my
(32:27):
expectations are that, and thenthere are times I'm doubling
down and going super fast andI'm going to do a bold move and
a this and a that, and so Idon't.
I don't think it's a linearclimb and actually when we look
at men who are very successfulunderneath it, it wasn't so I
just.
When we look at men who arevery successful underneath it,
(32:49):
it wasn't so I just I think it's.
We try.
Sometimes perfection can be theenemy of progress.
That phrase and maybe redefinewhat perfection is.
At certain moments of yourcareer, I took a really long
first parental leave and I wasreally fortunate to be in a dual
career situation so I couldafford to.
But I was really young, Iwasn't even 30 yet and I really
(33:14):
I just wanted to learn how to bea mom for a while.
I wanted to take nine monthsoff and at that time paid leave
was not six weeks, single digitsor something like that that's
also betting on yourself andtaking a risk.
It's saying I'm confident thatwhen I'm ready to go back, that
job will be there and I may havemissed something.
(33:38):
But I actually, as a gift notjust to my child but also to
myself, would like to learn howto be a mom for a bit and enjoy
it.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
The beautiful thing about the book, though, is it
does give you the playbook, forif you're going to make those
choices which are totally greatto make that there are other
moves you can make that won'tmake that choice, just like a
lifelong decision to write.
I feel like this idea of theseare your options, these are the
ways you can put it in sixthgear, pull it down to third gear
(34:08):
, make a right turn, make a leftturn and create a beautiful
career for yourself and a greatlife too, because I feel like
I'm not saying you can balanceeverything all the time and have
everything you want, but youcan sure as hell be way more
intentional about it and get towhere you want to go in a way
that maybe was linear to yourpoint.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
And some of those basics matter.
I remember we talk aboutnegotiation.
People always think negotiationis just your pay, by the way,
women tend not to negotiate.
So, hi, pro tip, do negotiate.
But negotiation is also othertypes of things.
So I remember because we didn'thave at the time this was 22
years ago we didn't have thetype of programs and I was
(34:55):
actually not even in the UnitedStates, and so I remember
talking to the office managerand saying look, I know that
this isn't the typical thing,but I'd really like to take nine
months, maybe more off, but Iactually am super committed to
coming back and I will stay intouch.
And when I came back, they werelike that's hard and consulting
(35:18):
, and you were flying out.
And I said, look, just for myfirst thing, back for my first
month, can you just help me dosomething local so that I just
don't get straight on anairplane and whatever that is,
I'll do it.
Any industry, any team, thatwould be such a gift and that's
(35:38):
part of negotiating how you comeback.
He said got it, let's do.
That Turns out to theentrepreneurship we were working
on something that became a hugelocal client and because I
worked on it and worked reallyhard with all these other folks,
some of which I didn't knowalready.
We actually had all these sortof.
I had a year where I didn't geton the airplane, and part of it
(35:59):
is a little bit of a little bitof luck, a little bit of
negotiating, asking that's.
That's a positive negotiation.
I will work really hard, butcould you help me not reduce
travel just for a little bit,and then we'll sort it out.
Just give me a sec to rebase.
I'm still the person that youloved and valued before.
(36:20):
I didn't think at the time.
It takes courage to do that,but it does take some courage to
have that conversation and youdo need to work in an
environment where thatconversation would be received
well, not to make too much ofthe example, but I do think in
the book there are all thesewomen who make it work in spite
of, and so there's a lot of data, mel, as you mentioned, but for
(36:42):
me I think the stories are justreally inspirational about what
are the tactical things theydid to get from A to B.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, a lot of great moves.
I think it's required reading,quite honestly, to think about
how do you really own yourcareer, and own your career as a
woman?
Just you got to read up.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
You got to read up.
Keeping it simple for ourlisteners, especially those who
might be like am I already partof the broken rung?
Do I need to address this?
What's one thing they can donext week to get back on track?
Speaker 3 (37:16):
reframe.
You're not off track.
You are always on track andthere's always opportunity in
front of you, and betting onyourself is always a good bet.
So look ahead and what's yournext move?
Do you want to go to the poweralley?
Do you want to exerciseentrepreneurship?
(37:38):
Do you want to build in theskills that matter for the
future, the 12 millionoccupations that we know will
shift by 2030.
Do you want to increase yournetwork?
Pick one, pick one, just pickone and get started.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
I love that.
I love that concept that you'renever off track.
You're never off track.
Yeah, we're just all taking funside quests.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
How much you have already.
Yeah, I, your portfolio justmay look a little different than
that guy next door to you, andthat's okay.
Really, what are you good at?
What do you have?
Where does that point you?
And then start opening thewindows and doors yourself.
Go get people to help you.
Yeah, I love it.
(38:26):
You can do it.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
What about leaders?
If you're a leader leading ateam and this is information new
and for maybe it's newinformation for somebody
listening today what's somethingthat they can take away or
start to do to analyze and makesure that they're being a good
sponsor or they're recognizingthat they might be holding
(38:48):
people back.
How can they support notholding them back or pushing
them forward?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
The first thing is to maybe just mark a couple of
like a piece of data or storythat that honestly struck you
very authentically.
Doesn't need to be many, justone or two.
And I would go share that witha man and a woman on your team
and just say I was reading thissince stopped me in my tracks.
(39:14):
What do you think?
Do you think we have a fairworkplace?
Do you feel the opportunitiesare the same?
And the man might say I feelover-mentored, under-sponsored.
You're like that's goodfeedback, but pro tip, does any
of this resonate with you?
I just start with that.
(39:35):
Just start locally, in your owncommunity and neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Starting the conversation.
Let's just have theconversation.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Yeah, and I think the other thing a leader can
de-risk what feel like highstakes conversations, and
opening to have the conversation, to listen, to learn, is huge.
There's a story of a woman whowas in the creative arts.
She was in performing arts inNew York and she had an
underlying mindset that if youare creative it's okay to be
disorganized, because that kindof comes with being creative.
(40:11):
And she didn't even know thatthis was an underlying mindset.
But she was super disorganizedand she had her baby a couple
months old and for women whoremember or who have had babies
in that early stage, there'svery few windows.
If you live in New York City,you can get that baby outside
(40:31):
and take the baby for a walkbefore the baby needs to eat and
nap.
And so she missed the wholewindow because she was so
disorganized.
She was like, oh my God,where's the diapers?
Where's this, where's that?
She missed the window and shewas so disorganized she's like,
oh my God, where's the diapers?
Where's this, where's that?
She missed the window.
And then the baby's crying andshe describes and I've talked to
her about this also personallyshe describes looking at this
wonderful child's face andsaying, kiddo, this isn't going
(40:51):
to work.
So not only that's a point ofdeep failure, like I think for
me.
I'm like, oh my god, I wouldhave been in a ball and tears
and like that just sounds awfuland we've all been there.
Anyway, the reason I mentionedthis is because it's a very
relatable moment.
But from that moment, not onlydoes she become really good at
(41:13):
organizing, she builds abusiness to organize other
executives, both men and women.
She writes two New York Timesbestseller books or more, and
she has this whole career whereshe actually helps people with
their operating models, withtheir leadership.
But it starts with the wedge ofwhat was a point of failure
(41:35):
became a point of strength,became a point of building a
business, became a point ofgiving to others and helping
others not organize how they gettheir walks for their babies,
but like thinking about how thesofter skills help you be a
better leader, the full set ofsofter skills.
And she's no longer inperforming arts, she's in
corporate America and I just Ialso just wanted to share that
(41:59):
sometimes both men and women areso afraid to make a mistake and
there's a lot in the zeitgeistabout that.
But I do think you never know,like, how do you take that in as
a pivot point to something elsewe'll run on.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
I'm gonna start with some high-level questions.
They can be one word responses,or one sentence, two sentences,
whatever you feel mostconfident with, but the whole
point is just to get yourimmediate reaction to the
question.
Okay, ready to dive in, ready?
Okay, it's 2030.
What's work going to look like?
It will be AI powered.
Okay, what's one thing aboutcorporate culture you'd like to
(42:48):
see disappear for good?
Bias, thank you.
What's the greatest opportunitythat most organizations are
missing out on right now?
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Women, young women, even better answer.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
What music are you listening to right now?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Oh, I really like Bruno Mars and his
collaborations, many of whichare women artists, but I do
really love the collaborations.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I like his new stuff too.
It's like fun, yeah, so good.
What are you reading, and thatcould be physically reading or
listening to an audio book rightnow?
Speaker 3 (43:25):
I am obsessed with AI podcasts, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
What's your favorite AI podcast?
What do you recommend?
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Oh, I really like no Priors and Training Data from
Sequoia and the Possible podcast.
And of course, I think everyonein tech listens to Hard Fork.
I'd be remiss not to mentionHard Fork, but that's kind of
obvious.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Perfect, who do?
Speaker 3 (43:54):
you really admire the 11% women CEOs of the world
Each and every one of them.
For everything that they'redoing and for being a pioneer
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
We recommend all the time on this podcast that people
start to follow.
I'm sure you do, but theorganization Pink Chip that's
tracking all of the globalfemale CEOs and their success.
So, yeah, any chance I can toplug it, I like to bring it back
up.
Good plug.
Yeah, what's a piece of adviceyou want everyone to know?
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Build your networks make sure they're powerful
networks and people who aregoing to be your personal board
of directors.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
All right.
Last thing, where can listenersfollow?
You stay abreast of all of thegoodness and new research that
you have coming out on thistopic.
What's the what's the best?
Obviously, read the book.
We're going to link to that buthow can they continue to stay
informed beyond reading the book?
Speaker 3 (44:53):
All of our gender and research.
On mckinseycom, you can searchunder my name or just search
under the topics.
We have 10 years of women inthe workplace, so there's a lot
of data in there.
And I'm on LinkedIn and I'vebeen trying to be better at
posting thoughts and sharingthings that are interesting.
You all can give me thefeedback.
(45:15):
You're like, nah, it's notreally working, but it'd be good
if you were more.
But I'm focused on LinkedIn methe feedback.
You're like nah, it's notreally working, but it'd be good
if you were more but I'mfocused on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
This has been so lovely.
Lorena, thank you for joiningus.
Oh, thank you.
Both Appreciate you.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us
myself, mel Plett and FrancescaRanieri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra, andif you loved this conversation
(45:51):
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagrams, so please join usin the socials and if you like
this and you've benefited fromthis episode and you think
someone else can benefit fromthis episode, please rate and
(46:15):
subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye, friends.
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