June 4, 2025 • 45 mins
The uncomfortable truth about your job security that no one's talking about : Employment is dead.
We sat down with Deborah Perry Piscione, Josh Drean, authors of "Employment is Dead:How Disruptive Technologies Are Revolutionizing the Way We Work," and founders of the Work 3 Institute. This conversation kinda blew our minds. They break down why traditional 9-to-5 employment is literally dying and how to thrive in what's coming next.
This isn't doom and gloom. It's about seeing the massive opportunity in the biggest work transformation in 150 years.
Here's what we're diving into:
⏰ 5:30 Why the industrial age work model is officially dead
⏰ 12:45 Why AI is moving so fast they give their book 5 months of relevance
⏰ 18:20 How teenage Roblox developers make $65K and ditch traditional jobs
⏰ 25:15 Gig Economy 3.0: DAOs and why Switzerland is living in the future
⏰ 32:40 When money goes away: Village economies and bartering
⏰ 38:50 Building multiple revenue streams and being "incredibly entrepreneurial" NOW
🔥 REAL TALK YOU CAN USE TODAY:
- Why 50% of entry-level jobs will disappear in 1-5 years
- How to build skills alongside AI instead of competing against it
- Making revenue streams work together (the Uber driver cookie example)
Join us as we explore why "wake the hell up" isn't just good advice - it's survival.
About Our Guests:
Deborah Perry Piscione, Globally recognized innovation thought leader, New York Times bestselling author, and serial entrepreneur who's built six companies and worked on Capitol Hill.
Josh Drean, Co-founder and Director of Employee Experience at Work Three Institute, featured in Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and The Economist for his insights on the future of work.
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Traditional models of employment are failing to meet
the needs of the evolvingworkforce.
Employment as it looks from anindustrial age kind of model of
you work for me, I'll give you Xamount of dollars for Y amount
of hours, I'm the boss, I tellyou exactly what you need to
build and exactly what you needto do, and you don't ask
(00:22):
questions.
Just does not serve us anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hey, this is your Work Friends.
I'm Mel Plett and I'm FrancescaRanieri.
We're breaking down work tohelp you stay ahead.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
We're also joined by Lucy, a 60 pound boxer, who is
breathing into the mic right now.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
How is that a hot breath going for you?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
It's like the best dog, but her breath is just.
Here's a mint.
Here's a mint.
I know I gotta get some ofthose greenies.
I'm like here's a mint, here'sa mint.
I know I gotta get some ofthose greenies.
I'm like I don't want to know.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I don't want to know oh, I mean, here she is just,
but this is the panting, is notfrancesca it?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
is not.
It is not.
It's just like in a brand new,whole new audience base after
this episode and in other newswe'll do a class for only fans
oh my god, a new way of working.
A new way of working.
Yeah, speaking of a new way ofworking, we had a mind-blowing
conversation the other day wedid we met with the authors of
(01:36):
employment is dead.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
deborah perry piscione is a globally
recognized innovation thoughtleader.
She's an architect ofimprovisational innovation, a
New York Times bestsellingauthor the Secrets of Silicon
Valley, serial entrepreneur ofsix companies, a LinkedIn
learning author, and she alsoworked on Capitol Hill.
(01:59):
And then Josh Dreen joined usas well.
He's the co-author, co-founderand director of employee
experience at the Work3Institute.
His work has been featured inHarvard Business Review, forbes,
fast Company and the Economist.
They both speak globallyactually to bring work and tech
insights to digital firstleaders, but they're very
focused on human-centricworkplaces as well.
(02:20):
Very interesting conceptEmployment is dead.
What I also took away from thatconversation is it's mainly how
we think about traditionalemployment.
But work is still here to stay.
It just might look a little bitdifferent.
How about you?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
One of the things in this whole AI conversation that
I think we've been reallymissing is what could work
really look like in the nextfive to 10 years.
Both Josh and Debra broughtsome very mind-blowing
perspectives of how work couldfeel decentralized and gigged
and really exciting Potentially,how we don't even have money
(02:58):
anymore.
Are we going to return tovillages?
If you are looking for afuturist's view of what the
world of work, what your lifemight look like, especially on
this whole AI trajectory, thisis the episode for you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Listen, it's a thought piece for sure.
Noodle on it.
Let us know what you think.
With that, here's Debra andJosh.
All right, welcome Josh andDeborah.
We're so excited to see youboth.
(03:35):
All right, we're going to setthe stage and jump right in,
because we're in it.
The title Employment is Dead.
Really bold statement.
What led you both to thisconclusion?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Oh yes, employment is dead.
Our bold pitch is thattraditional models of employment
are failing to meet the needsof the evolving workforce.
Employment, as it looks from anindustrial age kind of model of
you work for me, I'll give youX amount of dollars for Y amount
of hours, I'm the boss, I tellyou exactly what you need to
(04:07):
build and exactly what you needto do, and you don't ask
questions, just does not serveus anymore.
And when Debra said it's dead,we do make the distinction that
work and employment are two verydifferent things, and we've
just bled it together and don'tthink too much about it.
But in the very first chapterof the book we say employment is
(04:27):
this construct that we designed.
That doesn't work.
Work, on the other hand,individuals who want to build
skills, who want to be a part ofa company or a movement bigger
than themselves, to belong to acommunity.
That is what is important.
So how do we reclaim some ofthose elements?
And we talk more about this andwe can get further into it, but
I'm curious to have you weighin on that, debra.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Well, I wanted to give a little bit of another
additional nugget on thebackstory.
Josh and I really thought we'dhave a multi-year run rate with
this book, and we'll be lucky ifwe have five months, because
this concept of these jobseroding is happening so quickly.
So the world really needs towake up and, on the one hand,
we're going to get back moretime so that we can be better
(05:11):
citizens, better family members,have more time to do things.
We just really have beendesiring this European lifestyle
for so long.
Now we're going to be able toget it, but we do need to look
down the road, not only forourselves, for subsistence, but
how do we all collectively worktogether, which can look quite
(05:33):
different from an economic modelthat we've known for over 150
years?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, I think everyone's pretty cozy with how
it's always been right.
That's always hard, but what Igained from the book was
traditional jobs are gone, butwork is here to stay.
So the optimistic realist in meis employment might be dead,
but work is here to stay.
There's work that's going tohappen For the time being.
(05:59):
Yeah, for the time being.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
I almost got, even though Waymo has been in San
Francisco for quite some time Ihaven't seen it in my Silicon
Valley neighborhood untilrecently and I was waiting to
wave at the car, not realizingit was a Waymo, because I smile
at people when I they're waitingfor me to cross the street.
I was like there's nobody inthat car so soon.
(06:20):
Just as much as AI is evolving,so are robots and humanoids,
and so we are getting to, youknow, that general AGI,
artificial intelligence, whereit can rationalize, teach itself
and be in concert with robotsbeing able to learn on their own
, and so that's happening a lotfaster than we anticipated as
(06:43):
well, and so that's happening alot faster than we anticipated
as well.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
The evolution of work has changed.
A lot of people haven't studiedthis so deeply, so I'm
wondering if you can talkthrough how expectations of work
have changed over the years,just to set the stage.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, I can jump in here.
I spent a lot of time workingwith HR professionals and when
you look at HR in general, thatfield has just shifted so much.
When you look at the beginningof HR, right, it was personnel
and I think that it was birthedout of this idea of we have
people who work at the company.
We need to pay them.
They could get into trouble andwe could be sued as a company
(07:22):
for whatever they say orwhatever they do after hours,
and so let's get ahead of that.
So the traditional model of HRwas how can we do the paper
things it's paying people PTOand then we got into this era of
discretionary effort where itwas like people work for us nine
to five.
It's very contractual, but howcan we almost trick them into
(07:46):
doing more work, staying later,creeping into some of their
personal time?
What can we do to make theworkplace exciting?
To be there at 6 pm, at 7 pm,come in earlier, and so there's
the carrot and the stick.
Your bonuses are tied to that.
And there's also the look we'vegot snacks in the break room,
We've got beer on tap, we have alot of different things.
(08:06):
And that birthed the employeeengagement movement which was
yeah, we're Apple, we're Google,we want you to have an amazing
experience at our organization.
So how can we engage you more?
And that's where we have hotyoga, or we cater food every
single day, or we'll watch yourpet.
We have a pet daycare on campusright, it's very much this
(08:31):
2000s view and that has shiftedinto employee experience.
I think is where we are today ishow can we design experiences
that employees want to have andneed to have?
The problem is we're stillfalling behind because we're
unwilling to look at the deepand true needs of employees.
We actually write about it inthe book.
We call them the 10 operatingprinciples of work, three, the
(08:52):
non-negotiables of the modernworkforce.
And, just to give you anexample, employees want
flexibility.
That's one of our operatingprinciples.
Can we offer them flexibility?
And, like we did during thepandemic, we don't really do it
now, and so we see a lot ofcompanies who are more.
How do we get them back intothe office?
(09:12):
The RTO mandate over.
What if we customized theirschedules and individualized it
so they can work according totheir circadian rhythm?
Yes, you can go get your kidsat 3 pm, Because we know that
you log back on at 7 and youwork until midnight type thing,
and so there's a lot offlexibility that we can be
offering employees.
It's just it feels like we'restill stuck in that model.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Why do you think that is?
Why are we still stuck?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Today's model is based on really Taylorism, which
Taylor was an engineer in theearly 1900s who came up with the
concept and said people do nothave emotions.
They don't have feelings,they're just cogs on a wheel to
get that widget job done.
And that was really thecreation around middle
(09:59):
management as well.
We became very consumed withtime and for someone like myself
, I never understood if I didn'teat lunch on a particular day
in my Washington DC Capitol Hilloffice and my work was done at
two o'clock, why do I have tosit there until six?
Because our hours were eight tosix.
And then, if you pulledall-nighters in Washington DC,
(10:21):
at least in my generation, yougot like a badge of honor.
Rather than looking at theoutput or the productivity
behind work, we just got intothe concept of time, and so it
is really hard if you may bevery innovative and I think,
sitting here in Silicon Valleyaround companies like Google who
(10:44):
did try to do things verydifferently Marissa Mayer was
very famous at Google forallowing people to tap into
their rhythm, as Josh mentionedand just when do you work best?
It may not be within that eightto six timeframe, and I had to
adopt that engineer model when Ifirst moved to Silicon Valley,
(11:06):
because every engineer I workedwith was really extraordinary in
the middle of the night andthat's when they got their work
done.
Technology and products andconsumerism in foods.
But yet our cost of living isat its highest, in part because
(11:29):
of premium pricing.
So Gen Z has like 82% lessbuying power than baby boomers
did because of all thisadditional abundance and the
fees around it.
So if you're always trying tocatch up in order to pay your
rent or your mortgage, it's justhard to grow beyond.
(11:50):
You just don't have time tothink about it because you're on
that treadmill.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, it's such an interesting thing because we
know that a 30-year-old today isworse off than their parents
were.
To your very good point right,the buying power in the younger
generation is not there, and Ithink there's a lot of reasons
for that too.
And then we're also looking atpotentially jobs going away,
work going away.
(12:15):
This idea of job securitynon-existent definitely now
doesn't exist anymore.
Technology is going to drivethis so much faster, right,
we're going to get into theseholes so much faster.
My biggest concern is thiseconomic wealth gap is going to
get even bigger, from the peoplethat have to the people that
(12:35):
don't have.
And does technology exacerbatethat or does it democratize that
?
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Yeah, that's such a great question because, as Josh
knows, I used to always say AIis going to democratize
opportunity, but really whatit's coming down to is digital
fluency.
I sit in the middle of thisstuff and trying to keep up with
it day to day.
I'm like, oh, you haven't heardabout Manus, that's going to
build out the company for you.
(13:01):
That's Reid Hoffman's newstartup and Josh and I are very
much on the global speakingcircuit and I'm lucky of a
speech last two weeks.
I'm constantly revising it.
So there's exhaustion withkeeping up and you cannot keep
pace with the five or so AIcompanies.
Where they're going to be thewinner takes all situation.
(13:25):
There was a venture capitalistwho made a famous statement as
the SaaS kind of model where youwould eventually exhaust those
sales.
In an AI model, you can notonly take all the jobs, but you
can take all the salaries of thepeople that used to work for
you.
It's endless.
The money is endless.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, I was just reading AI 2027, that white
paper that's out there too, andit just feels like it all starts
to funnel up into three bigthings at the end of the day,
and it's just holy shit, as allthe wealth and all of the
abundance, if you will, going toladder into these three
conglomerates, whatever we wantto call them.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
It's fascinating to watch, and the3, because I and
Josh.
You started to talk about it alittle bit, but can you both
break down what Work3 is allabout for our listeners?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah.
So the Work3 Institute is an HRand AI advisory where we help
companies marry emergingtechnologies with workforce
strategies.
It's hey, we want to use AI.
We have no idea how to getstarted.
We want to help our peoplebetter use AI and upskill them
to be able to 50x productivity,10x productivity, whatever the
(14:51):
promise of AI is going to be.
We just don't know how to dothat, and a lot of it tends to
be.
These forward-thinkinghuman-centric companies who see
the change happening don't knowhow to get on board and we match
them with some of thistechnology.
A lot of it, to be honest, islike you've never touched a
generative ai tool.
Here's a few options.
And generative AI tool here's afew options.
(15:13):
Here's some homework to startusing it today.
Just use it in your daily life.
We are big on helping reclaimhuman fulfillment at work and
satisfaction.
It's something that, especiallyas companies are being squeezed
right now economically, how dowe not lose sight of employee
satisfaction?
How do you continue to do wellby your people?
(15:34):
Because if you look at thestats, they're not great either.
Most employees are burned out.
Most employees would take a newjob in a heartbeat.
Most employees don't trusttheir companies to do right by
them at this time, and sotackling those human-centric
projects head on.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
You talked about the principles earlier and I loved,
debra, what you were saying too.
Just, things are changing soquickly and Josh mentioning RTO,
right, we swung all the wayover here during COVID.
Now we're all the way back andsomething about the traditional
model and I know we started totouch on those barriers that
actually are gonna get people tothe future.
Some of it has to do with, like, executive leadership still
(16:15):
thinking in that verytraditional way, right, like
even some of these folks who arereally tech forward are still
like I need to see your face andI need to see it every day from
eight to six, as you mentioned,deborah, and if you're not a
butt in a seat, I don't trustyou're getting the work done.
How do you get them to cutthrough that old way of thinking
(16:36):
to get them to the future?
Speaker 4 (16:38):
So the last chapter of our book is on the work three
transformation.
How do you go from thetraditional organization into
the era of AI?
And a lot of it has to do withcommunication and, as Josh
mentioned, it's about the people.
First, the human element.
When we wrote this book, wereally thought the adoption
(17:00):
would come from a lot of the bigorganizations and the
consulting firms.
But what happened, with Dogecoming out and the geopolitical
component of this is, peoplewere losing their jobs so much
faster.
And then there needed to be aproof point If you were in the
hiring business, that you had toprove that AI couldn't do that
(17:20):
job.
This book quickly shifted to theindividual wanting to know what
do I need to do?
Because we can't call thisunemployment anymore.
We need an entirely neweconomic model in this era of AI
, because moving into that nextjob, it's just not going to be
there.
But I think, mel, it's moreabout fear and holding on as
(17:43):
long as they can, because theyknow this is happening.
So I don't care if you'reAccenture or you're a law firm
or whatever you are.
You know that AI is going totake over your business.
It just is.
And so let me hold on to thework element as long as I can,
(18:03):
and Josh and I have certainlytalked about it.
They probably sign theselong-term real estate leases.
They're just holding on as longas they possibly can, and I
know you want to talk about somerecent articles where one of
the anthropic co-founders hastalked about job loss.
That's going to happen at theentry level, but CEOs, boards of
(18:24):
directors, can all be taken outby AI, so why not hold on as
long as you can and let's worktogether as long?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
as we can.
We saw it even two years ago,right when they were testing AI,
taking the bar exam or theaccounting exam, and they're
passing with flying colors Likeabsolutely it's at all levels,
not just entry level, For thosetypes of business leaders or
even in professional servicesthat are kind of holding on with
fear.
How do you move them to theplace of opportunity of the
(18:53):
portfolio worker in thoseenvironments so that everyone
can continue to feel?
Speaker 4 (18:58):
whole to some degree.
What's happening simultaneouslyis Gen Z coming up.
We often talk about variouskind of use cases or individuals
, young people that have made atremendous amount of money at 15
years old, generating, creatinga game on Roblox, and I think
(19:19):
the average Roblox developer,Josh teenager, makes about
$65,000 a year.
So you know they're not goingto want to necessarily come into
what traditional work offerswhen they've had so much control
and ownership over being thatgain developer.
And so you are having thismarket.
(19:42):
Yes, 50% of these entry-leveljobs, white-collar jobs, are
going to go away in the next oneto five years.
There's also a lot ofinteresting things happen on the
Web3 side in the metaverse.
Josh, you're really the experthere, so you should weigh in.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, the answer is if you look at the pattern over
time, companies who operate infear, especially large companies
who don't take the risks thatDebra's talking about and don't
push things forward, will riskobsolescence.
That's just how it is.
And the argument that we makeagain is that if we are still
having the employmentconversation and that's exactly
(20:20):
what we're having right nowwhich is oh, are you at a nine
to five full-time employmentwith one company or unemployed?
Those are the only two options.
This doesn't make sense.
And the younger generation toDebra's point already has
abandoned traditional nine tofives.
They are abandoning collegeright now, they are adopting AI
(20:42):
and they are pushing forward ina way that doesn't even make
sense to these aging leaders whohave been doing this for so
long.
In a certain way, it's justoutside their scope.
Mel, you mentioned a DAO or aDecentralized, autonomous
Organization.
Some of our more progressiveclients are piloting DAOs within
(21:03):
their organization right now,which sounds like a scary word
or a Web3 new thing, but reallyall it is like we don't need
decision makers at the top ofone person, a manager making all
of the decisions and justtelling us exactly what we need
to do.
You hired me because I haveskills and I have a voice and
I'm creative and there's a lotmore that I can offer to the
(21:23):
team.
So what if we distributedtokens to them, voting power?
Essentially it's you want tomake a choice for the team?
Get on Snapshot.
It's just a Web3 tool that willallow you to vote in real time
which direction the companycould go, and you can make
hundreds of these decisionsevery week together in an
(21:44):
instant.
And once the group has decidedcollectively which direction
they need to move, then a smartcontract will execute and say
all right, that's the directionthat we're headed.
And now you have hyper agileteams that don't.
They're not bound by the samered tape, their hands aren't as
tied as other teams and they'removing quickly and they're
(22:06):
producing more results thanother teams.
And so there are companies thatare doing it that way.
What I think this large scaleglobal DAO, like a global gig
economy, is going to be more sothe mainstream than an internal
gig economy.
Why should I work for you onlywhen I can do my same skills for
(22:27):
several companies and severalprojects?
That feels better to employees.
And so again, how do youattract Gen Z?
A lot of companies can't evenanswer that question.
They just label them as lazy orentitled.
And then there are companieswho are like oh, let's pilot
some DAOs.
And then there's, oh, let'soperate outside of traditional
(22:51):
employment, which feels like Idon't even get the value out of
the work that I contribute, sopay me more for the work that
I'm doing.
There's a lot to unpack there,but that's just a teaser.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
We know Gen Z is already making up 30% of the
workforce.
Between Gen Z and millennials,I guess borderline zennials,
that's 70% of the workforcealready.
Right, and Gen Z want to feellike they're co-creating the
workplace with you, they're notjust showing up and being told
what to do.
So I actually love that conceptof the voting piece that you
talked about.
Where is this working reallywell?
(23:18):
I know you can't share clientnames, understood, but where are
you seeing this working reallywell?
What are you hearing fromfeedback where you are testing
this out Abroad, abroad, good.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Of course Switzerland , Germany I might ask them out.
Josh and I do a lot of globalwork overall, so yeah, there's
definitely forward-thinkingindividuals overseas.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
We share case studies with them.
Individuals overseas we sharecase studies with them.
It just feels like a couplestandard deviations away from
what they are willing to do,right, Even if this was working
really well, like JuiceboxDAO isa great example, right?
This is a vibrant, interoperablecommunity that doesn't employ
anyone, and yet they have somany people core contributors,
(24:14):
or bounty hunters, as you callit in the Web3 world who are
contributing and adding valueand getting paid based on the
value that they are generating.
And so, again, it's verydifficult to come into a
leadership place and say, hey,work is changing.
And they're like give us someanswers and it's yeah, but the
answers aren't going to be whatyou're used to and they're going
(24:36):
to challenge everything thatyou know and like AI added to
all of that which is moving sorapidly.
It's difficult, and that's partof the reason why, with AI, we
see a large group of companieswho are like oh yeah, AI is
going to replace my expensiveworkforce, and people are
(24:57):
tossing around oh yeah, we'rejust going to be unemployed,
Everyone's going to beunemployed.
It's guys like broaden yourhorizons, maximize the skills
that you have and you willalways be working.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I think that's my question.
How are people going to makemoney?
I think that's my question.
How are people going to makemoney?
And you've mentioned, like thecreator economy with Roblox,
right, or, for instance, theseDAOs.
I find it very lazy whencompanies go oh, I'm just going
to fire everybody, or we're justgoing to get efficiency gains,
or we're just going to dump abunch of money in AI and throw
spaghetti at the wall to try tofigure out what's happening,
(25:32):
without really thinking aboutwhat the art of the possible
could be in their organization.
And we see this very commonlywhen technology hits.
It's like tech for tech's sake,as opposed to actually enabling
your business to be somethingbetter than it could be.
Yep, like, how are people goingto make money?
And my secondary sub questionof that is do companies really
go away?
Speaker 4 (25:54):
I'm going to tell you what I think is going to happen
in five years, when money goesaway.
Josh, why don't you do theinterim step?
Because that's the beauty ofour collaboration is Josh is in
the thick of things and I amlooking more at the economic
models of the future.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Can we have both, though, because I'd love to know
the now and the future.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
if you'd be willing to share, yeah for sure, josh,
you want to begin, and then I'llfollow up future, if you'd be
willing to share.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, for sure, Josh.
You want to begin and then I'llfollow up.
Yeah, and just to clarify howare individual employees going
to make money in kind of a gigeconomy, space creator economy,
or how are companies going tomake money knowing that
employees are probably going tochoose alternative work models?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Let's start with employees like individual people
, because I think that's thebiggest concern for a lot of
folks right now is will jobsexist?
Will work exist?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, it's so funny.
So many TikTokers who are likeI'm unemployed.
I just got laid off for thesecond time this year, so blow
up my TikTok and collectively wecan hopefully make some money.
Everyone's trying to carve thatspace out, and I would say the
reason why the creator economyhas stagnated, the reason why
the gig economy isn't hot rightnow, the reason why Airbnb and
(27:03):
Uber is not excelling like theyused to, is partially because
plenty of reasons right, butfrom an employee's perspective,
if I'm driving for Uber, youhave a centralized company.
They need massive amounts ofcashflow in order to keep the
business running, and so whereare you going to get that cash?
You can go to investors andyou're tied down to being more
(27:27):
and more profitable, and theemployee just gets to a place
where this isn't even worth it.
I'm not even making enoughmoney.
Too much of it is flowing backto a centralized organization,
and so one answer could bedecentralized organizations,
which is we cut out themiddleman.
We don't need them.
We have technology that existswhere you can open an app and
get to work.
(27:47):
It runs peer to peer, whichmeans I offer my skills and my
services outside of an Upwork.
Upwork right now is the onlyway.
There's other platforms, sure,but if you want to be a
freelancer, the only way you'regoing to find work is through
some of these channels.
Again, upwork takes a large cutof that.
(28:09):
So how do you make this makesense?
Plus, benefits are tied up intoemployment.
Specifically, there's a lot ofchallenges that have not
materialized yet, and I'm justletting everyone know on this
podcast today that smart peopleare working on this technology
and the minute that it becomesviable for the masses, why would
an employee work a full-timejob when they could have just as
(28:32):
much, if not more, money,working on projects that they
love with, like passionateindividuals, single mothers
working three hours a daybecause that makes sense to them
over other options?
And Reid Hoffman he has saidthat traditional jobs will be
dead by 2034.
And I think a lot of peoplemisinterpret that to be like AI
is taking all of your jobs.
(28:52):
You'll be done by 2034.
What he's really saying is thatmodel, that decentralized gig
economy, will be viable by 2034and everyone will be choosing
that.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
And Josh, he revised that year in the next two to
four years.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Oh Jesus.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Yeah, if you look at his Manus AI, you'll understand
why because it can create thecompany for you.
So, francesca, your question isthe question I hope that I
always get asked and rarely doso in the interim.
We're gonna have to beincredibly entrepreneurial,
whether you're entrepreneur ornot.
So you could be driving forUber right now and you also make
(29:30):
these delicious gluten-freechocolate chip cookies that
people have been asking you toprovide for parties and locally,
but now you're giving it toyour Uber customers and they're
starting to take orders.
So what I mean by that is youwant multiple revenue streams
and getting those revenuestreams to work together.
My head is really where are wegoing to be when money goes away
(29:58):
?
So I'll give you an example,and this is a geopolitical issue
as well we may move backtowards communal living.
We're seeing a lot of that popup around the world.
We may grow our own food.
I think we're going to see muchmore of the rise of the
family-run business, and I don'tmean just the mom and pop small
(30:19):
storefronts.
These can be multi-billiondollar businesses, but we are
going to have to be much morereliant on our families and our
immediate community.
And then government is going tohave to figure out an entirely
new support system, a safety net, because you can't just call it
(30:42):
unemployment anymore.
If President Trump wants to paywomen $8,000 to have a baby,
which he's asked for because ofour birth rates being in decline
, then you're going to actuallyhave to pay people to, whether
it's mom or dad, to take care ofthat child on top of it.
So you're going to have to payfor childcare or elder care
(31:04):
Again.
It is going to be sofundamentally different from
what we know today, and I'mheading off to Copenhagen and a
few other Scandinavian countriesnext week just to continue to
look at some of their ways, ofthe way they live their life and
what can be adopted around theworld.
I was just in Mexico City.
(31:25):
They certainly have thefamily-run multi-billion-dollar
business nailed down, not thatit doesn't come without its
challenges, but we are going tomove much more towards the
village, if you will, almostback in time, because it's not
about the big corporationanymore.
(31:47):
They say the average company.
Big company in the future isgoing to be 50 to 200 people,
and then you're going to havethe company of one, the big
unicorn, and then you're goingto have the company of one, the
(32:15):
we going to barter?
Are we going to be moreproviding subsistence to
ourselves, our families, ourcommunities?
And that is the big unknownquestion at the moment.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
If money goes away, how do you have a multi-billion
dollar business?
Speaker 4 (32:30):
There'll be a few of those people that do have the
digital fluency because you arecapturing, as I said earlier,
the SaaS or any technologicalkind of innovation.
There was a market that youtarget to.
Now, in an AI economy, as jobsgo away, you can capture those
(32:51):
jobs and the salaries you arepaying people.
So there's still going to beservices that need to be
provided for, but we do have toservices or functions.
I used to say we'll have thebarbell economy where you're
either the AI engineer or you'rethe plumber.
Now I say you've got to do both.
(33:13):
Really, the generations of thefuture can have some degree of
cognitive functionality beforeAI completely takes it over.
We do need those physicalskills in the interim before
humanoids are fully developed.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Are you guys freaked out by this, or is this exciting
to you, or is this exciting to?
Speaker 4 (33:34):
you.
It's exciting to me because Ithink we know, had it not been
for COVID, we wouldn't haveevolved, We'd still be in the
same kind of mindset.
And so when we think about theproblems of the environment,
(33:55):
right, we don't need to drive towork anymore.
You go to a place likeCopenhagen.
Everybody is biking.
Things become more localized.
So I think we had this greatbig globalization and if
anything the president is doingright now is bringing it back to
the US, whatever your politicsare manufacturing consumerism,
(34:21):
and I think eventually that'sgoing to become more and more
localized.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Knowing humans' capacity for change, and this is
happening so quickly that willthere be in the short term a lot
of pain.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
No matter what your religious perspectives are,
there is a belief that we'recoming into the era of the
feminine, and in that feminineit is more about the heart
rather than the head.
We've been chasing capitalismfor so long, and the haves and
the have-nots, the dichotomy andthe spread continues to get
(34:58):
larger and larger.
And, to your point, has thatmade us happier, having money,
or has it made us more lonely?
Because we're always on thechase, even among the world's
richest men.
It's just a continuous battle.
Who's on top?
Who cares?
How much money do you reallyneed?
(35:18):
And so I do think we will be ina position where we will have
more time to give back in waysthat families need.
Particularly children need.
They need that love and support.
And there's something verybeautiful about that family farm
, with those children getting upat 3 am and all working
(35:39):
together to contribute to thefamily wealth.
And I think it's scary because,again, we've been in this kind
of world of work that we'veknown for 150 years now.
But we will have to evolve.
We don't have a choice.
With or without the AI hype,it's happening.
So we're not going to have achoice, but to evolve at this
(36:01):
time.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
The beauty of this.
It brings us back to a placefor why we're all here anyway,
which is to live, because Ithink one thing that I heard as
a common theme throughout COVIDpost-COVID was this mass
reflection that took placebecause people finally had an
opportunity to slow down andremove the blinders of the
hamster wheel that they werejust on and they're like whoa, I
(36:25):
didn't realize how much of mylife I'm missing on, and so it's
interesting.
It seems pretty optimistic tome, although I think there's a
lot to work through and theremay be a lot of scary things too
, but at the same time it givesus the opportunity to be just
human beings and exist.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
What about the people that are like freaked out?
We talk to people all the timethat are I'm going to lose my
job, AI is going to take my job.
You've got obviously anthropicguy saying you're not going to
have a job.
What do you say to those folks?
Speaker 1 (36:56):
I would say it's not black or white.
I have a job and I don'tanymore.
If you have skills that youwant to develop, if you have
things that you're passionateabout, start chasing them now
and don't worry about thecertifications or the college
degrees.
That stuff is irrelevant.
Just build your skillsalongside AI and there will be a
(37:16):
place for you, whether it's gigeconomy 3.0, whether it's in a
creator economy world.
Youtube has shown us that youcan make a video on anything and
you can find a following andmake money off of that.
A decentralized gig economywill be more than that.
It'll be what skills do youhave?
Let's apply it.
In these ways, ai will be ableto match you on projects.
(37:38):
You don't have to look forclients.
You don't have to beg companiesto hire you with your cover
letter.
It'll be as easy as opening anapp and getting started.
But definitely hone thoseskills.
God.
The death of the cover letter,please go.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
I was going to say you just made every employee
happy to hear that.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
I don't know if you guys are of the generation.
I actually had to mail it inthe mail.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Oh yeah, you didn't have to go through that, but I'm
a little bit more draconian.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I am wake the hell up , wrap it round, and this is to
get to know you better as humanbeings and your personal POVs on
a couple of things.
It's 2030.
In one word, or one sentencewhat's work?
Going to look like Dead.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Decentralized.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
What's one thing about corporate culture you'd
like to see disappear for good?
Speaker 4 (38:41):
All of it.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Management.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Interesting.
Okay, what's the greatestopportunity that most
organizations are missing out on?
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Treating their people as human.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
AI.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
What music are you listening to right now?
What's on your playlist Keepingyou happy?
Speaker 4 (39:08):
I'm going to Coldplay tomorrow night.
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Do you have a favorite?
Speaker 4 (39:15):
song from their albums oh many.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Just love it.
Yeah, okay, how about you, josh?
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, all of my early 2000s punk rock fans.
They're all putting out albumsnow.
So we've got some All-AmericanRejects in there, some Jimmy
World.
They're keeping me happy byfeeding me more music.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, Listen, Gen X and the millennials and Xennials
.
Over here we have the bestgeneration of music coming up.
In that time Everyone's comingback.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
No one can argue that .
Speaker 2 (39:44):
No, what are you guys reading right now?
It could be audio book too.
No judgment.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I'm reading Open Talent right now.
It's a book that actually cameout Harvard Business Review
Press about the same time asours, very much in the same vein
as the work that we wrote about, but it's very much talking
about the now of work, which ishow do we open up our workforces
to a talent marketplace or aninternal gig economy.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
So it's very fascinating marketplace or an
internal gig economy.
So it's very fascinating.
Yeah, we we had john on the podrecently.
It was an awesome book and veryin line with also your concepts
as well in terms of thatportfolio work of the future.
So it's really good.
Who do you?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
I am a work nerd, so I all of the greats the Adam
Grants, the Marcus Buckinghamscome to mind.
There's a lot of great work,social media individuals right
now who are doing some greatwork.
So a shout out to ChrisDonnelly, there Just changing
work, one TikTok at a time.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
Yeah, and I hit it more from a historical
perspective, of a lot of womenwho were the first Amelia
Earhart, just somebody I admiregreatly, even someone like Oprah
, who understood the concept ofownership rather than just being
a successful broadcaster.
(41:20):
So people who really broke themold and were first and likely
told no quite often and justcontinue to persevere.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, I like that.
And shout out to Debra, who isa modern Amelia Earhart in my
mind.
She does all the value she putson conferences in Silicon
Valley of these powerful womenwho are making big waves in the
investment space, innovationspace, keeping that trend moving
forward.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
So what's one piece of advice you want everyone to
know?
And it doesn't necessarilywe're going to get to the advice
you want employees to have atthe end.
So this could be personal orprofessional, but if you were
talking to someone you careabout, what's one piece of
advice you would give them todaythat you'd want them to take
away To?
Speaker 4 (42:06):
take risks.
There are no wrong answers.
I was always that person andthis is something I do see,
quite a dichotomy between menand women, not to generalize.
But men will just jump andwomen will come to the edge of
the cliff and it's almostanalysis by paralysis, by
analysis.
At this stage, you got to try alot of things and figure out
(42:28):
what sticks, and there are nowrong answers and there's
nothing embarrassing or just by.
I don't even want to call itfailure, because you learn along
the way.
The worst thing is to not try.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I love that, debra.
The worst thing is to not try.
It's so true.
I would say and this tends tobe aligned with the content that
we write about is prioritizeskills over experience.
I have a younger brother who'sconsidering going to college
right now and he's hey man, isit worth it?
I'm seeing a lot of stuff aboutit, and when I was a kid there
(43:06):
was no other option.
It was like go to college,that's the only way to get
skills.
But nowadays there are so manyother options to learn and grow,
and so I would say don't worryabout the piece of paper and
learn and grow.
And so I would say don't worryabout the piece of paper.
And, yes, college is a greatexperience.
The community side of it isgreat, but you need to make sure
that you are at leastgraduating with skills that are
going to be attractive in themarketplace.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
This has been an amazing conversation and super
appreciate the glimpse of what'sactually going on today and
what will be coming and howpeople can get on the bus for
their own benefit.
You both are doing work andkeeping up to date with this.
As it's changing every twoweeks, how can our listeners
stay?
Speaker 1 (43:45):
connected with you.
Find us on LinkedIn DebraPerry-Pershoni or Josh Dreen.
The Works for the Institute isthere as well.
We love to chat about any ofthe challenges that you are
facing and love to connect DebraJosh thanks so much for joining
us today.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
This episode was produced, edited and all things
by us myself, mel Plett andFrancesca Ranieri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you loved this conversation
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
(44:23):
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
also join us over on linkedin.
We have a linkedin communitypage and we have the tiktoks and
instagrams.
So please join us in thesocials and if you like this and
you've benefited from thisepisode and you think someone
else can benefit from thisepisode, please rate and
subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(44:43):
Take care, friends.
Bye, friends.
Traditional models of employment are failing to meet
the needs of the evolvingworkforce.
Employment as it looks from anindustrial age kind of model of
you work for me, I'll give you Xamount of dollars for Y amount
of hours, I'm the boss, I tellyou exactly what you need to
build and exactly what you needto do, and you don't ask
(00:22):
questions.
Just does not serve us anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hey, this is your Work Friends.
I'm Mel Plett and I'm FrancescaRanieri.
We're breaking down work tohelp you stay ahead.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
We're also joined by Lucy, a 60 pound boxer, who is
breathing into the mic right now.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
How is that a hot breath going for you?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
It's like the best dog, but her breath is just.
Here's a mint.
Here's a mint.
I know I gotta get some ofthose greenies.
I'm like here's a mint, here'sa mint.
I know I gotta get some ofthose greenies.
I'm like I don't want to know.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I don't want to know oh, I mean, here she is just,
but this is the panting, is notfrancesca it?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
is not.
It is not.
It's just like in a brand new,whole new audience base after
this episode and in other newswe'll do a class for only fans
oh my god, a new way of working.
A new way of working.
Yeah, speaking of a new way ofworking, we had a mind-blowing
conversation the other day wedid we met with the authors of
(01:36):
employment is dead.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
deborah perry piscione is a globally
recognized innovation thoughtleader.
She's an architect ofimprovisational innovation, a
New York Times bestsellingauthor the Secrets of Silicon
Valley, serial entrepreneur ofsix companies, a LinkedIn
learning author, and she alsoworked on Capitol Hill.
(01:59):
And then Josh Dreen joined usas well.
He's the co-author, co-founderand director of employee
experience at the Work3Institute.
His work has been featured inHarvard Business Review, forbes,
fast Company and the Economist.
They both speak globallyactually to bring work and tech
insights to digital firstleaders, but they're very
focused on human-centricworkplaces as well.
(02:20):
Very interesting conceptEmployment is dead.
What I also took away from thatconversation is it's mainly how
we think about traditionalemployment.
But work is still here to stay.
It just might look a little bitdifferent.
How about you?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
One of the things in this whole AI conversation that
I think we've been reallymissing is what could work
really look like in the nextfive to 10 years.
Both Josh and Debra broughtsome very mind-blowing
perspectives of how work couldfeel decentralized and gigged
and really exciting Potentially,how we don't even have money
(02:58):
anymore.
Are we going to return tovillages?
If you are looking for afuturist's view of what the
world of work, what your lifemight look like, especially on
this whole AI trajectory, thisis the episode for you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Listen, it's a thought piece for sure.
Noodle on it.
Let us know what you think.
With that, here's Debra andJosh.
All right, welcome Josh andDeborah.
We're so excited to see youboth.
(03:35):
All right, we're going to setthe stage and jump right in,
because we're in it.
The title Employment is Dead.
Really bold statement.
What led you both to thisconclusion?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Oh yes, employment is dead.
Our bold pitch is thattraditional models of employment
are failing to meet the needsof the evolving workforce.
Employment, as it looks from anindustrial age kind of model of
you work for me, I'll give youX amount of dollars for Y amount
of hours, I'm the boss, I tellyou exactly what you need to
(04:07):
build and exactly what you needto do, and you don't ask
questions, just does not serveus anymore.
And when Debra said it's dead,we do make the distinction that
work and employment are two verydifferent things, and we've
just bled it together and don'tthink too much about it.
But in the very first chapterof the book we say employment is
(04:27):
this construct that we designed.
That doesn't work.
Work, on the other hand,individuals who want to build
skills, who want to be a part ofa company or a movement bigger
than themselves, to belong to acommunity.
That is what is important.
So how do we reclaim some ofthose elements?
And we talk more about this andwe can get further into it, but
I'm curious to have you weighin on that, debra.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Well, I wanted to give a little bit of another
additional nugget on thebackstory.
Josh and I really thought we'dhave a multi-year run rate with
this book, and we'll be lucky ifwe have five months, because
this concept of these jobseroding is happening so quickly.
So the world really needs towake up and, on the one hand,
we're going to get back moretime so that we can be better
(05:11):
citizens, better family members,have more time to do things.
We just really have beendesiring this European lifestyle
for so long.
Now we're going to be able toget it, but we do need to look
down the road, not only forourselves, for subsistence, but
how do we all collectively worktogether, which can look quite
(05:33):
different from an economic modelthat we've known for over 150
years?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, I think everyone's pretty cozy with how
it's always been right.
That's always hard, but what Igained from the book was
traditional jobs are gone, butwork is here to stay.
So the optimistic realist in meis employment might be dead,
but work is here to stay.
There's work that's going tohappen For the time being.
(05:59):
Yeah, for the time being.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
I almost got, even though Waymo has been in San
Francisco for quite some time Ihaven't seen it in my Silicon
Valley neighborhood untilrecently and I was waiting to
wave at the car, not realizingit was a Waymo, because I smile
at people when I they're waitingfor me to cross the street.
I was like there's nobody inthat car so soon.
(06:20):
Just as much as AI is evolving,so are robots and humanoids,
and so we are getting to, youknow, that general AGI,
artificial intelligence, whereit can rationalize, teach itself
and be in concert with robotsbeing able to learn on their own
, and so that's happening a lotfaster than we anticipated as
(06:43):
well, and so that's happening alot faster than we anticipated
as well.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
The evolution of work has changed.
A lot of people haven't studiedthis so deeply, so I'm
wondering if you can talkthrough how expectations of work
have changed over the years,just to set the stage.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, I can jump in here.
I spent a lot of time workingwith HR professionals and when
you look at HR in general, thatfield has just shifted so much.
When you look at the beginningof HR, right, it was personnel
and I think that it was birthedout of this idea of we have
people who work at the company.
We need to pay them.
They could get into trouble andwe could be sued as a company
(07:22):
for whatever they say orwhatever they do after hours,
and so let's get ahead of that.
So the traditional model of HRwas how can we do the paper
things it's paying people PTOand then we got into this era of
discretionary effort where itwas like people work for us nine
to five.
It's very contractual, but howcan we almost trick them into
(07:46):
doing more work, staying later,creeping into some of their
personal time?
What can we do to make theworkplace exciting?
To be there at 6 pm, at 7 pm,come in earlier, and so there's
the carrot and the stick.
Your bonuses are tied to that.
And there's also the look we'vegot snacks in the break room,
We've got beer on tap, we have alot of different things.
(08:06):
And that birthed the employeeengagement movement which was
yeah, we're Apple, we're Google,we want you to have an amazing
experience at our organization.
So how can we engage you more?
And that's where we have hotyoga, or we cater food every
single day, or we'll watch yourpet.
We have a pet daycare on campusright, it's very much this
(08:31):
2000s view and that has shiftedinto employee experience.
I think is where we are today ishow can we design experiences
that employees want to have andneed to have?
The problem is we're stillfalling behind because we're
unwilling to look at the deepand true needs of employees.
We actually write about it inthe book.
We call them the 10 operatingprinciples of work, three, the
(08:52):
non-negotiables of the modernworkforce.
And, just to give you anexample, employees want
flexibility.
That's one of our operatingprinciples.
Can we offer them flexibility?
And, like we did during thepandemic, we don't really do it
now, and so we see a lot ofcompanies who are more.
How do we get them back intothe office?
(09:12):
The RTO mandate over.
What if we customized theirschedules and individualized it
so they can work according totheir circadian rhythm?
Yes, you can go get your kidsat 3 pm, Because we know that
you log back on at 7 and youwork until midnight type thing,
and so there's a lot offlexibility that we can be
offering employees.
It's just it feels like we'restill stuck in that model.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Why do you think that is?
Why are we still stuck?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Today's model is based on really Taylorism, which
Taylor was an engineer in theearly 1900s who came up with the
concept and said people do nothave emotions.
They don't have feelings,they're just cogs on a wheel to
get that widget job done.
And that was really thecreation around middle
(09:59):
management as well.
We became very consumed withtime and for someone like myself
, I never understood if I didn'teat lunch on a particular day
in my Washington DC Capitol Hilloffice and my work was done at
two o'clock, why do I have tosit there until six?
Because our hours were eight tosix.
And then, if you pulledall-nighters in Washington DC,
(10:21):
at least in my generation, yougot like a badge of honor.
Rather than looking at theoutput or the productivity
behind work, we just got intothe concept of time, and so it
is really hard if you may bevery innovative and I think,
sitting here in Silicon Valleyaround companies like Google who
(10:44):
did try to do things verydifferently Marissa Mayer was
very famous at Google forallowing people to tap into
their rhythm, as Josh mentionedand just when do you work best?
It may not be within that eightto six timeframe, and I had to
adopt that engineer model when Ifirst moved to Silicon Valley,
(11:06):
because every engineer I workedwith was really extraordinary in
the middle of the night andthat's when they got their work
done.
Technology and products andconsumerism in foods.
But yet our cost of living isat its highest, in part because
(11:29):
of premium pricing.
So Gen Z has like 82% lessbuying power than baby boomers
did because of all thisadditional abundance and the
fees around it.
So if you're always trying tocatch up in order to pay your
rent or your mortgage, it's justhard to grow beyond.
(11:50):
You just don't have time tothink about it because you're on
that treadmill.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, it's such an interesting thing because we
know that a 30-year-old today isworse off than their parents
were.
To your very good point right,the buying power in the younger
generation is not there, and Ithink there's a lot of reasons
for that too.
And then we're also looking atpotentially jobs going away,
work going away.
(12:15):
This idea of job securitynon-existent definitely now
doesn't exist anymore.
Technology is going to drivethis so much faster, right,
we're going to get into theseholes so much faster.
My biggest concern is thiseconomic wealth gap is going to
get even bigger, from the peoplethat have to the people that
(12:35):
don't have.
And does technology exacerbatethat or does it democratize that
?
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Yeah, that's such a great question because, as Josh
knows, I used to always say AIis going to democratize
opportunity, but really whatit's coming down to is digital
fluency.
I sit in the middle of thisstuff and trying to keep up with
it day to day.
I'm like, oh, you haven't heardabout Manus, that's going to
build out the company for you.
(13:01):
That's Reid Hoffman's newstartup and Josh and I are very
much on the global speakingcircuit and I'm lucky of a
speech last two weeks.
I'm constantly revising it.
So there's exhaustion withkeeping up and you cannot keep
pace with the five or so AIcompanies.
Where they're going to be thewinner takes all situation.
(13:25):
There was a venture capitalistwho made a famous statement as
the SaaS kind of model where youwould eventually exhaust those
sales.
In an AI model, you can notonly take all the jobs, but you
can take all the salaries of thepeople that used to work for
you.
It's endless.
The money is endless.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, I was just reading AI 2027, that white
paper that's out there too, andit just feels like it all starts
to funnel up into three bigthings at the end of the day,
and it's just holy shit, as allthe wealth and all of the
abundance, if you will, going toladder into these three
conglomerates, whatever we wantto call them.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
It's fascinating to watch, and the3, because I and
Josh.
You started to talk about it alittle bit, but can you both
break down what Work3 is allabout for our listeners?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah.
So the Work3 Institute is an HRand AI advisory where we help
companies marry emergingtechnologies with workforce
strategies.
It's hey, we want to use AI.
We have no idea how to getstarted.
We want to help our peoplebetter use AI and upskill them
to be able to 50x productivity,10x productivity, whatever the
(14:51):
promise of AI is going to be.
We just don't know how to dothat, and a lot of it tends to
be.
These forward-thinkinghuman-centric companies who see
the change happening don't knowhow to get on board and we match
them with some of thistechnology.
A lot of it, to be honest, islike you've never touched a
generative ai tool.
Here's a few options.
And generative AI tool here's afew options.
(15:13):
Here's some homework to startusing it today.
Just use it in your daily life.
We are big on helping reclaimhuman fulfillment at work and
satisfaction.
It's something that, especiallyas companies are being squeezed
right now economically, how dowe not lose sight of employee
satisfaction?
How do you continue to do wellby your people?
(15:34):
Because if you look at thestats, they're not great either.
Most employees are burned out.
Most employees would take a newjob in a heartbeat.
Most employees don't trusttheir companies to do right by
them at this time, and sotackling those human-centric
projects head on.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
You talked about the principles earlier and I loved,
debra, what you were saying too.
Just, things are changing soquickly and Josh mentioning RTO,
right, we swung all the wayover here during COVID.
Now we're all the way back andsomething about the traditional
model and I know we started totouch on those barriers that
actually are gonna get people tothe future.
Some of it has to do with, like, executive leadership still
(16:15):
thinking in that verytraditional way, right, like
even some of these folks who arereally tech forward are still
like I need to see your face andI need to see it every day from
eight to six, as you mentioned,deborah, and if you're not a
butt in a seat, I don't trustyou're getting the work done.
How do you get them to cutthrough that old way of thinking
(16:36):
to get them to the future?
Speaker 4 (16:38):
So the last chapter of our book is on the work three
transformation.
How do you go from thetraditional organization into
the era of AI?
And a lot of it has to do withcommunication and, as Josh
mentioned, it's about the people.
First, the human element.
When we wrote this book, wereally thought the adoption
(17:00):
would come from a lot of the bigorganizations and the
consulting firms.
But what happened, with Dogecoming out and the geopolitical
component of this is, peoplewere losing their jobs so much
faster.
And then there needed to be aproof point If you were in the
hiring business, that you had toprove that AI couldn't do that
(17:20):
job.
This book quickly shifted to theindividual wanting to know what
do I need to do?
Because we can't call thisunemployment anymore.
We need an entirely neweconomic model in this era of AI
, because moving into that nextjob, it's just not going to be
there.
But I think, mel, it's moreabout fear and holding on as
(17:43):
long as they can, because theyknow this is happening.
So I don't care if you'reAccenture or you're a law firm
or whatever you are.
You know that AI is going totake over your business.
It just is.
And so let me hold on to thework element as long as I can,
(18:03):
and Josh and I have certainlytalked about it.
They probably sign theselong-term real estate leases.
They're just holding on as longas they possibly can, and I
know you want to talk about somerecent articles where one of
the anthropic co-founders hastalked about job loss.
That's going to happen at theentry level, but CEOs, boards of
(18:24):
directors, can all be taken outby AI, so why not hold on as
long as you can and let's worktogether as long?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
as we can.
We saw it even two years ago,right when they were testing AI,
taking the bar exam or theaccounting exam, and they're
passing with flying colors Likeabsolutely it's at all levels,
not just entry level, For thosetypes of business leaders or
even in professional servicesthat are kind of holding on with
fear.
How do you move them to theplace of opportunity of the
(18:53):
portfolio worker in thoseenvironments so that everyone
can continue to feel?
Speaker 4 (18:58):
whole to some degree.
What's happening simultaneouslyis Gen Z coming up.
We often talk about variouskind of use cases or individuals
, young people that have made atremendous amount of money at 15
years old, generating, creatinga game on Roblox, and I think
(19:19):
the average Roblox developer,Josh teenager, makes about
$65,000 a year.
So you know they're not goingto want to necessarily come into
what traditional work offerswhen they've had so much control
and ownership over being thatgain developer.
And so you are having thismarket.
(19:42):
Yes, 50% of these entry-leveljobs, white-collar jobs, are
going to go away in the next oneto five years.
There's also a lot ofinteresting things happen on the
Web3 side in the metaverse.
Josh, you're really the experthere, so you should weigh in.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, the answer is if you look at the pattern over
time, companies who operate infear, especially large companies
who don't take the risks thatDebra's talking about and don't
push things forward, will riskobsolescence.
That's just how it is.
And the argument that we makeagain is that if we are still
having the employmentconversation and that's exactly
(20:20):
what we're having right nowwhich is oh, are you at a nine
to five full-time employmentwith one company or unemployed?
Those are the only two options.
This doesn't make sense.
And the younger generation toDebra's point already has
abandoned traditional nine tofives.
They are abandoning collegeright now, they are adopting AI
(20:42):
and they are pushing forward ina way that doesn't even make
sense to these aging leaders whohave been doing this for so
long.
In a certain way, it's justoutside their scope.
Mel, you mentioned a DAO or aDecentralized, autonomous
Organization.
Some of our more progressiveclients are piloting DAOs within
(21:03):
their organization right now,which sounds like a scary word
or a Web3 new thing, but reallyall it is like we don't need
decision makers at the top ofone person, a manager making all
of the decisions and justtelling us exactly what we need
to do.
You hired me because I haveskills and I have a voice and
I'm creative and there's a lotmore that I can offer to the
(21:23):
team.
So what if we distributedtokens to them, voting power?
Essentially it's you want tomake a choice for the team?
Get on Snapshot.
It's just a Web3 tool that willallow you to vote in real time
which direction the companycould go, and you can make
hundreds of these decisionsevery week together in an
(21:44):
instant.
And once the group has decidedcollectively which direction
they need to move, then a smartcontract will execute and say
all right, that's the directionthat we're headed.
And now you have hyper agileteams that don't.
They're not bound by the samered tape, their hands aren't as
tied as other teams and they'removing quickly and they're
(22:06):
producing more results thanother teams.
And so there are companies thatare doing it that way.
What I think this large scaleglobal DAO, like a global gig
economy, is going to be more sothe mainstream than an internal
gig economy.
Why should I work for you onlywhen I can do my same skills for
(22:27):
several companies and severalprojects?
That feels better to employees.
And so again, how do youattract Gen Z?
A lot of companies can't evenanswer that question.
They just label them as lazy orentitled.
And then there are companieswho are like oh, let's pilot
some DAOs.
And then there's, oh, let'soperate outside of traditional
(22:51):
employment, which feels like Idon't even get the value out of
the work that I contribute, sopay me more for the work that
I'm doing.
There's a lot to unpack there,but that's just a teaser.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
We know Gen Z is already making up 30% of the
workforce.
Between Gen Z and millennials,I guess borderline zennials,
that's 70% of the workforcealready.
Right, and Gen Z want to feellike they're co-creating the
workplace with you, they're notjust showing up and being told
what to do.
So I actually love that conceptof the voting piece that you
talked about.
Where is this working reallywell?
(23:18):
I know you can't share clientnames, understood, but where are
you seeing this working reallywell?
What are you hearing fromfeedback where you are testing
this out Abroad, abroad, good.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Of course Switzerland , Germany I might ask them out.
Josh and I do a lot of globalwork overall, so yeah, there's
definitely forward-thinkingindividuals overseas.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
We share case studies with them.
Individuals overseas we sharecase studies with them.
It just feels like a couplestandard deviations away from
what they are willing to do,right, Even if this was working
really well, like JuiceboxDAO isa great example, right?
This is a vibrant, interoperablecommunity that doesn't employ
anyone, and yet they have somany people core contributors,
(24:14):
or bounty hunters, as you callit in the Web3 world who are
contributing and adding valueand getting paid based on the
value that they are generating.
And so, again, it's verydifficult to come into a
leadership place and say, hey,work is changing.
And they're like give us someanswers and it's yeah, but the
answers aren't going to be whatyou're used to and they're going
(24:36):
to challenge everything thatyou know and like AI added to
all of that which is moving sorapidly.
It's difficult, and that's partof the reason why, with AI, we
see a large group of companieswho are like oh yeah, AI is
going to replace my expensiveworkforce, and people are
(24:57):
tossing around oh yeah, we'rejust going to be unemployed,
Everyone's going to beunemployed.
It's guys like broaden yourhorizons, maximize the skills
that you have and you willalways be working.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I think that's my question.
How are people going to makemoney?
I think that's my question.
How are people going to makemoney?
And you've mentioned, like thecreator economy with Roblox,
right, or, for instance, theseDAOs.
I find it very lazy whencompanies go oh, I'm just going
to fire everybody, or we're justgoing to get efficiency gains,
or we're just going to dump abunch of money in AI and throw
spaghetti at the wall to try tofigure out what's happening,
(25:32):
without really thinking aboutwhat the art of the possible
could be in their organization.
And we see this very commonlywhen technology hits.
It's like tech for tech's sake,as opposed to actually enabling
your business to be somethingbetter than it could be.
Yep, like, how are people goingto make money?
And my secondary sub questionof that is do companies really
go away?
Speaker 4 (25:54):
I'm going to tell you what I think is going to happen
in five years, when money goesaway.
Josh, why don't you do theinterim step?
Because that's the beauty ofour collaboration is Josh is in
the thick of things and I amlooking more at the economic
models of the future.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Can we have both, though, because I'd love to know
the now and the future.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
if you'd be willing to share, yeah for sure, josh,
you want to begin, and then I'llfollow up future, if you'd be
willing to share.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, for sure, Josh.
You want to begin and then I'llfollow up.
Yeah, and just to clarify howare individual employees going
to make money in kind of a gigeconomy, space creator economy,
or how are companies going tomake money knowing that
employees are probably going tochoose alternative work models?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Let's start with employees like individual people
, because I think that's thebiggest concern for a lot of
folks right now is will jobsexist?
Will work exist?
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, it's so funny.
So many TikTokers who are likeI'm unemployed.
I just got laid off for thesecond time this year, so blow
up my TikTok and collectively wecan hopefully make some money.
Everyone's trying to carve thatspace out, and I would say the
reason why the creator economyhas stagnated, the reason why
the gig economy isn't hot rightnow, the reason why Airbnb and
(27:03):
Uber is not excelling like theyused to, is partially because
plenty of reasons right, butfrom an employee's perspective,
if I'm driving for Uber, youhave a centralized company.
They need massive amounts ofcashflow in order to keep the
business running, and so whereare you going to get that cash?
You can go to investors andyou're tied down to being more
(27:27):
and more profitable, and theemployee just gets to a place
where this isn't even worth it.
I'm not even making enoughmoney.
Too much of it is flowing backto a centralized organization,
and so one answer could bedecentralized organizations,
which is we cut out themiddleman.
We don't need them.
We have technology that existswhere you can open an app and
get to work.
(27:47):
It runs peer to peer, whichmeans I offer my skills and my
services outside of an Upwork.
Upwork right now is the onlyway.
There's other platforms, sure,but if you want to be a
freelancer, the only way you'regoing to find work is through
some of these channels.
Again, upwork takes a large cutof that.
(28:09):
So how do you make this makesense?
Plus, benefits are tied up intoemployment.
Specifically, there's a lot ofchallenges that have not
materialized yet, and I'm justletting everyone know on this
podcast today that smart peopleare working on this technology
and the minute that it becomesviable for the masses, why would
an employee work a full-timejob when they could have just as
(28:32):
much, if not more, money,working on projects that they
love with, like passionateindividuals, single mothers
working three hours a daybecause that makes sense to them
over other options?
And Reid Hoffman he has saidthat traditional jobs will be
dead by 2034.
And I think a lot of peoplemisinterpret that to be like AI
is taking all of your jobs.
(28:52):
You'll be done by 2034.
What he's really saying is thatmodel, that decentralized gig
economy, will be viable by 2034and everyone will be choosing
that.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
And Josh, he revised that year in the next two to
four years.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Oh Jesus.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Yeah, if you look at his Manus AI, you'll understand
why because it can create thecompany for you.
So, francesca, your question isthe question I hope that I
always get asked and rarely doso in the interim.
We're gonna have to beincredibly entrepreneurial,
whether you're entrepreneur ornot.
So you could be driving forUber right now and you also make
(29:30):
these delicious gluten-freechocolate chip cookies that
people have been asking you toprovide for parties and locally,
but now you're giving it toyour Uber customers and they're
starting to take orders.
So what I mean by that is youwant multiple revenue streams
and getting those revenuestreams to work together.
My head is really where are wegoing to be when money goes away
(29:58):
?
So I'll give you an example,and this is a geopolitical issue
as well we may move backtowards communal living.
We're seeing a lot of that popup around the world.
We may grow our own food.
I think we're going to see muchmore of the rise of the
family-run business, and I don'tmean just the mom and pop small
(30:19):
storefronts.
These can be multi-billiondollar businesses, but we are
going to have to be much morereliant on our families and our
immediate community.
And then government is going tohave to figure out an entirely
new support system, a safety net, because you can't just call it
(30:42):
unemployment anymore.
If President Trump wants to paywomen $8,000 to have a baby,
which he's asked for because ofour birth rates being in decline
, then you're going to actuallyhave to pay people to, whether
it's mom or dad, to take care ofthat child on top of it.
So you're going to have to payfor childcare or elder care
(31:04):
Again.
It is going to be sofundamentally different from
what we know today, and I'mheading off to Copenhagen and a
few other Scandinavian countriesnext week just to continue to
look at some of their ways, ofthe way they live their life and
what can be adopted around theworld.
I was just in Mexico City.
(31:25):
They certainly have thefamily-run multi-billion-dollar
business nailed down, not thatit doesn't come without its
challenges, but we are going tomove much more towards the
village, if you will, almostback in time, because it's not
about the big corporationanymore.
(31:47):
They say the average company.
Big company in the future isgoing to be 50 to 200 people,
and then you're going to havethe company of one, the big
unicorn, and then you're goingto have the company of one, the
(32:15):
we going to barter?
Are we going to be moreproviding subsistence to
ourselves, our families, ourcommunities?
And that is the big unknownquestion at the moment.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
If money goes away, how do you have a multi-billion
dollar business?
Speaker 4 (32:30):
There'll be a few of those people that do have the
digital fluency because you arecapturing, as I said earlier,
the SaaS or any technologicalkind of innovation.
There was a market that youtarget to.
Now, in an AI economy, as jobsgo away, you can capture those
(32:51):
jobs and the salaries you arepaying people.
So there's still going to beservices that need to be
provided for, but we do have toservices or functions.
I used to say we'll have thebarbell economy where you're
either the AI engineer or you'rethe plumber.
Now I say you've got to do both.
(33:13):
Really, the generations of thefuture can have some degree of
cognitive functionality beforeAI completely takes it over.
We do need those physicalskills in the interim before
humanoids are fully developed.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Are you guys freaked out by this, or is this exciting
to you, or is this exciting to?
Speaker 4 (33:34):
you.
It's exciting to me because Ithink we know, had it not been
for COVID, we wouldn't haveevolved, We'd still be in the
same kind of mindset.
And so when we think about theproblems of the environment,
(33:55):
right, we don't need to drive towork anymore.
You go to a place likeCopenhagen.
Everybody is biking.
Things become more localized.
So I think we had this greatbig globalization and if
anything the president is doingright now is bringing it back to
the US, whatever your politicsare manufacturing consumerism,
(34:21):
and I think eventually that'sgoing to become more and more
localized.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Knowing humans' capacity for change, and this is
happening so quickly that willthere be in the short term a lot
of pain.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
No matter what your religious perspectives are,
there is a belief that we'recoming into the era of the
feminine, and in that feminineit is more about the heart
rather than the head.
We've been chasing capitalismfor so long, and the haves and
the have-nots, the dichotomy andthe spread continues to get
(34:58):
larger and larger.
And, to your point, has thatmade us happier, having money,
or has it made us more lonely?
Because we're always on thechase, even among the world's
richest men.
It's just a continuous battle.
Who's on top?
Who cares?
How much money do you reallyneed?
(35:18):
And so I do think we will be ina position where we will have
more time to give back in waysthat families need.
Particularly children need.
They need that love and support.
And there's something verybeautiful about that family farm
, with those children getting upat 3 am and all working
(35:39):
together to contribute to thefamily wealth.
And I think it's scary because,again, we've been in this kind
of world of work that we'veknown for 150 years now.
But we will have to evolve.
We don't have a choice.
With or without the AI hype,it's happening.
So we're not going to have achoice, but to evolve at this
(36:01):
time.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
The beauty of this.
It brings us back to a placefor why we're all here anyway,
which is to live, because Ithink one thing that I heard as
a common theme throughout COVIDpost-COVID was this mass
reflection that took placebecause people finally had an
opportunity to slow down andremove the blinders of the
hamster wheel that they werejust on and they're like whoa, I
(36:25):
didn't realize how much of mylife I'm missing on, and so it's
interesting.
It seems pretty optimistic tome, although I think there's a
lot to work through and theremay be a lot of scary things too
, but at the same time it givesus the opportunity to be just
human beings and exist.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
What about the people that are like freaked out?
We talk to people all the timethat are I'm going to lose my
job, AI is going to take my job.
You've got obviously anthropicguy saying you're not going to
have a job.
What do you say to those folks?
Speaker 1 (36:56):
I would say it's not black or white.
I have a job and I don'tanymore.
If you have skills that youwant to develop, if you have
things that you're passionateabout, start chasing them now
and don't worry about thecertifications or the college
degrees.
That stuff is irrelevant.
Just build your skillsalongside AI and there will be a
(37:16):
place for you, whether it's gigeconomy 3.0, whether it's in a
creator economy world.
Youtube has shown us that youcan make a video on anything and
you can find a following andmake money off of that.
A decentralized gig economywill be more than that.
It'll be what skills do youhave?
Let's apply it.
In these ways, ai will be ableto match you on projects.
(37:38):
You don't have to look forclients.
You don't have to beg companiesto hire you with your cover
letter.
It'll be as easy as opening anapp and getting started.
But definitely hone thoseskills.
God.
The death of the cover letter,please go.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
I was going to say you just made every employee
happy to hear that.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
I don't know if you guys are of the generation.
I actually had to mail it inthe mail.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Oh yeah, you didn't have to go through that, but I'm
a little bit more draconian.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I am wake the hell up , wrap it round, and this is to
get to know you better as humanbeings and your personal POVs on
a couple of things.
It's 2030.
In one word, or one sentencewhat's work?
Going to look like Dead.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Decentralized.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
What's one thing about corporate culture you'd
like to see disappear for good?
Speaker 4 (38:41):
All of it.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Management.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Interesting.
Okay, what's the greatestopportunity that most
organizations are missing out on?
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Treating their people as human.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
AI.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
What music are you listening to right now?
What's on your playlist Keepingyou happy?
Speaker 4 (39:08):
I'm going to Coldplay tomorrow night.
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Do you have a favorite?
Speaker 4 (39:15):
song from their albums oh many.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Just love it.
Yeah, okay, how about you, josh?
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, all of my early 2000s punk rock fans.
They're all putting out albumsnow.
So we've got some All-AmericanRejects in there, some Jimmy
World.
They're keeping me happy byfeeding me more music.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, Listen, Gen X and the millennials and Xennials
.
Over here we have the bestgeneration of music coming up.
In that time Everyone's comingback.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
No one can argue that .
Speaker 2 (39:44):
No, what are you guys reading right now?
It could be audio book too.
No judgment.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I'm reading Open Talent right now.
It's a book that actually cameout Harvard Business Review
Press about the same time asours, very much in the same vein
as the work that we wrote about, but it's very much talking
about the now of work, which ishow do we open up our workforces
to a talent marketplace or aninternal gig economy.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
So it's very fascinating marketplace or an
internal gig economy.
So it's very fascinating.
Yeah, we we had john on the podrecently.
It was an awesome book and veryin line with also your concepts
as well in terms of thatportfolio work of the future.
So it's really good.
Who do you?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
I am a work nerd, so I all of the greats the Adam
Grants, the Marcus Buckinghamscome to mind.
There's a lot of great work,social media individuals right
now who are doing some greatwork.
So a shout out to ChrisDonnelly, there Just changing
work, one TikTok at a time.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
Yeah, and I hit it more from a historical
perspective, of a lot of womenwho were the first Amelia
Earhart, just somebody I admiregreatly, even someone like Oprah
, who understood the concept ofownership rather than just being
a successful broadcaster.
(41:20):
So people who really broke themold and were first and likely
told no quite often and justcontinue to persevere.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, I like that.
And shout out to Debra, who isa modern Amelia Earhart in my
mind.
She does all the value she putson conferences in Silicon
Valley of these powerful womenwho are making big waves in the
investment space, innovationspace, keeping that trend moving
forward.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
So what's one piece of advice you want everyone to
know?
And it doesn't necessarilywe're going to get to the advice
you want employees to have atthe end.
So this could be personal orprofessional, but if you were
talking to someone you careabout, what's one piece of
advice you would give them todaythat you'd want them to take
away To?
Speaker 4 (42:06):
take risks.
There are no wrong answers.
I was always that person andthis is something I do see,
quite a dichotomy between menand women, not to generalize.
But men will just jump andwomen will come to the edge of
the cliff and it's almostanalysis by paralysis, by
analysis.
At this stage, you got to try alot of things and figure out
(42:28):
what sticks, and there are nowrong answers and there's
nothing embarrassing or just by.
I don't even want to call itfailure, because you learn along
the way.
The worst thing is to not try.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I love that, debra.
The worst thing is to not try.
It's so true.
I would say and this tends tobe aligned with the content that
we write about is prioritizeskills over experience.
I have a younger brother who'sconsidering going to college
right now and he's hey man, isit worth it?
I'm seeing a lot of stuff aboutit, and when I was a kid there
(43:06):
was no other option.
It was like go to college,that's the only way to get
skills.
But nowadays there are so manyother options to learn and grow,
and so I would say don't worryabout the piece of paper and
learn and grow.
And so I would say don't worryabout the piece of paper.
And, yes, college is a greatexperience.
The community side of it isgreat, but you need to make sure
that you are at leastgraduating with skills that are
going to be attractive in themarketplace.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
This has been an amazing conversation and super
appreciate the glimpse of what'sactually going on today and
what will be coming and howpeople can get on the bus for
their own benefit.
You both are doing work andkeeping up to date with this.
As it's changing every twoweeks, how can our listeners
stay?
Speaker 1 (43:45):
connected with you.
Find us on LinkedIn DebraPerry-Pershoni or Josh Dreen.
The Works for the Institute isthere as well.
We love to chat about any ofthe challenges that you are
facing and love to connect DebraJosh thanks so much for joining
us today.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
This episode was produced, edited and all things
by us myself, mel Plett andFrancesca Ranieri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you loved this conversation
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
(44:23):
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
also join us over on linkedin.
We have a linkedin communitypage and we have the tiktoks and
instagrams.
So please join us in thesocials and if you like this and
you've benefited from thisepisode and you think someone
else can benefit from thisepisode, please rate and
subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(44:43):
Take care, friends.
Bye, friends.
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