January 28, 2025 • 51 mins
In this eye-opening episode, we sit down with Michael Horn (Co-founder of the Clayton Christensen Institute, Harvard Graduate School of Education) and Bob Moesta (Founder of Rewired Group, Kellogg School of Management) to discuss their groundbreaking book "Job Moves" and revolutionize how you think about career transitions.
Discover why the traditional job search process is broken and learn how to take control of your career path by "hiring" your next job. Our guests break down the four primary career quests that drive job changes, debunk the myth of "getting lucky" in job searches, and reveal why money isn't the real motivator behind career decisions.
Key topics include:
- Understanding the four career quests and identifying yours
- Why job descriptions are "made up" and how to navigate beyond them
- The truth about career progression vs. genuine progress
- How to leverage your network effectively in job searches
- Practical strategies for energy management in your career
- The future of work and AI's impact on career transitions
Whether you're actively job hunting, feeling stuck in your current role, or planning your next career move, this conversation provides actionable insights for navigating the modern job market with intention and purpose.
Featuring career development experts Michael Horn and Bob Moesta, this episode is essential listening for professionals ready to take control of their career trajectory in 2024 and beyond.
#CareerDevelopment #JobSearch #CareerTransition #CareerAdvice #ProfessionalDevelopment #JobMoves #CareerGrowth #Leadership #FutureOfWork #CareerCoaching
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Just because you're good at it doesn't mean you like
to do it.
Yeah, part of it is being ableto actually know who you are and
know what you're good at.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I almost wore that same lipstick today that would
have been hilarious.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Sometimes you just need, like a, just a boost you
know, yeah, so really it looksreally beautiful.
Thank you Honestly.
There's just so much schmutzgoing on in the world right now
the news cycle I cannot I cannot, I can't keep up with this news
cycle Listen.
We had a pretty kick-assconversation last week.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This has been one of my most favorite discussions in
a long long time.
I mean, I love all our guests,but this has just been a really.
It was just a rad conversation.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yeah, I thought so too.
We talked to Michael B Horn andBob Moesta.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, Michael Horn is the co-founder of the Clayton
Christensen Institute and heteaches at Harvard Graduate
School of Education.
And Bob is the founder ofRewired Group and also an
(01:28):
adjunct lecturer at the KelloggSchool of Management for
Northwestern University and alsoa fellow of the Clayton
Christensen Institute and justall around amazing human beings
to talk to us about their newbook, Job Moves, Job Moves.
As someone who has been deeplyinvolved with talent acquisition
and now I do career coachingfor individuals, I just think
the tool that they've pulledtogether on their website and
understanding the quest thatyou're on which, by the way, we
all have four quests that wetypically are on to decide what
(01:48):
our next move is going to beHighly recommend reading the
book just to understand that.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
This book, honestly, is giving people permission to
hire their next job.
We are all in that position.
This is not where you're at themercy of employers.
This is really permission andan amazing opportunity and,
honestly, the data to tell youno, what you really need to do
is be honest with yourself aboutwhat you want, what your
strengths are, and then go outthere and hire your next job.
(02:13):
This conversation was so funfor me just because a they're
just so well-researched, greatconversationalists and, honestly
, gave a lot of really greattips on how do you really think
about hiring your next job.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, if you want to feel empowered with your career
and the decisions you're makingaround your career, this is the
book to read and this is theepisode to listen to.
So with that, here's Michaeland Bob.
(02:52):
Let's just get to the pointreal quick.
What's the biggest myth thatfolks tell themselves about
their career, growth or progress?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
The one that surprised me the most was how
much they thought they got luckyto get their next job, and when
you really kind of unpackedeverything they said and how
they did it, luck is more thefact that they were prepared and
the opportunity appeared andthey were able to actually seize
it, and so I wouldn't call thatluck, but they wouldn't assign
any kind of causation to it.
And what we found was thatthere are very simple things
(03:23):
that actually have to happen toyou to make you ready for the
next job and then all of asudden, you only see them when
these other things happen to you.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
So that's one of them .
Bob, you stole mine.
I was going to say the exactsame thing, so I agree.
The only other thing I mightadd is I think people discount
the role that their networkplays for them when they're
looking for a job.
They think it's a very sololike.
I applied online to hundreds ofjobs.
These days, increasingly, AIsupported me and they don't
(03:54):
realize the importance of theirnetwork as part of that process
that Bob alluded to.
Coming in, making them aware ofopportunities, helping them get
the job, being the trustedbroker right so that I will
trust and actually hire you.
Most jobs are filled by someonethat you know in network.
They're not filled by anonymous, random things.
So that's the second one Imight add is people discount the
(04:18):
role of their network aroundthem.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I'm going to add a third.
The third thing to me was money.
Money is a means to an end, somoney turns out to be about
respect, or money turns out tobe I have to provide for my
family.
More Like.
There's like five or sixdifferent definitions of why
people want more money, not one.
And you start to realize likepeople are mixing them all up
and they're just using thatlever of here.
Let me offer you more money,and it's it's not just more
(04:42):
money that makes job the worksatisfying.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I love to hear you say that, because I just had a
conversation with a friend whowas feeling so down on
themselves because they hadn'treached what they felt was
success in terms of salary.
And she's worked withincredible people, incredible
organizations, but somehow thatwas the sole thing telling her
(05:06):
or at least her own narrativethat she has not been successful
because of that one element.
So it's good to remember thatdoesn't define your true success
.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Well, but the fact is it's one of the wrong metrics,
but it's a metric of how whatsuccess or progress feels like
for them, and so when you startto put that there, you don't
have the why of like.
Really what I want is respect,and ultimately there's other
ways to get respect, and so thisis why, for example, sometimes
a position change will actuallyhelp people feel that progress,
and without a salary increase.
(05:34):
There's many variables here atplay and ultimately it was very
fascinating because we didalmost like the exit interview
but the real exit interviews.
We did over a thousand of themand it was so fun to hear the
stories and what had to happento them to make them ready to
look and then ultimately howthey found it.
It was kind of what the book isall about.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, I love it.
What gets in the way of trueprogress?
What?
How do we remove it?
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Part of it is.
I mean, starting with that, wedon't actually know what
progress looks like for us,right?
So we'll tell ourselves thesestorylines.
Money is a great example.
I want more money, and once youwant more money, you want more
and more.
There's no limit to that, right, without understanding
underneath causality of what'sactually driving me to say these
are the things that are notgood enough in my current role,
(06:19):
these are the priorities that Ireally want to get in my next
role.
And so not really understandingwhat progress looks like for
you, I think is actually a bigthing that gets in the way of
progress.
And then the second one that'smaybe sort of goes in concert
with that is I don't actuallyknow how to make the trade-offs
for that next role to get theprogress that I really desire.
(06:42):
And the thinking behind that isa fewfold One.
There's no perfect job on everydimension.
Every job is going to have somesuck in it, it's going to have
some things that I don't loveabout it.
But what are the things thatI'm going to consciously choose,
not settle for, but say like,hey, I'm going to take the lower
salary so that I get thebasically non-existent commute,
(07:02):
I get to have the title I get tobe around my kids, whatever the
set of things are.
We could drill down deeper intoall of those, but how do I make
those trade-offs?
Most people, I think, don'tknow how to make those and as a
result, they get caught up inroles that sound good in paper.
They're quick returns to ego,but they're not actually helping
them make that progress.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, I believe it.
I think I've definitely foundmyself in that position, right.
And then, when you don'tmeasure the trade-offs and
what's really important to you,you find yourself in the same
position just two years later,like here I am again.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
The yellow brick road was supposed to lead somewhere,
but somehow I just looped backand we're right where we started
.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I have one more to add on this.
I think one of the other thingsis people don't have a
realistic or real understandingof what they're good at, what
they suck at, what gives themenergy, what they don't really
know who they are and howthey're driven.
They haven't taken the time tostudy themselves, and so that's
part of this is having peoplereflect back and find those
moments where they got energyand find out those moments where
(08:05):
the energy got sucked out ofthem.
And just because you're good atit doesn't mean you like to do
it, and so part of it is beingable to actually know who you
are and know what you're good at.
But I always think for me, thething to learn most is what do
you suck at and how do youactually realize like you don't
need to get better at that?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
You need to find a teammate who's actually who
loves to do this stuff you suckat, yeah, and actually, mel,
just stay on that for a moment,cause Bob put me on the hot seat
in the last week or two on this, where he was like saying but
you're so.
I stopped wanting to managepeople when my twin girls were
born in 2014.
And Bob was like but you'rereally good at managing, like
that was something that was likea superpower of yours, and I'm
like.
It was like but you're reallygood at managing.
(08:50):
That was like a superpower ofyours.
And I'm like it's the lastthing I freaking want to do.
And he was basically like right, because just because you're
good at it, the context changeddoesn't mean you get energy from
it anymore.
You did Right, but here's thething.
It goes back to your friend whowas telling themselves the
narrative of like I need to makethis much money or whatever it
is.
We often say like, oh, successis then I'm going to be a
manager and I'm going to havethis big team and I'm going to
measure based on the directreports and their direct reports
(09:11):
, and et cetera, et cetera.
And like maybe that isn't whatgives you energy at this stage,
even if it is something that youcould do, but we don't pay
attention to the context andthose signals about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, Just because you can doesn't mean you should
always right.
Just a good rule of thumb andyour, our priorities and our
values change over time, sothat's constantly like you have
your twins and so that's right.
Things change.
Okay.
Something I loved I'm going topivot really quick.
Something I really loved in thebook because, as a career coach
myself and a former recruiter,I always tell people you're
(09:49):
interviewing your employer justas much as they're interviewing
you as a reminder.
And what I really loved was youboth said it is critical to
hire your next job.
Why Tell our folks why?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
So this is one of the things that we flipped the lens
on, and we used a theory that Ibuilt with Clay Christensen
called jobs to be done, and thewhole premise is people don't
buy products, they hire them tomake progress in their life.
And so part of this was torealize, at some point in time,
when you talk to people aroundhiring, you start to realize
(10:25):
actually the lens is flipped.
And the fact is, know peoplearound hiring, you start to
realize, like it's actually thelens is flipped and the fact is
we, as an employer, you thinkyou hire somebody, but the fact
is everybody's an at willemployee, or most of them are at
will employees and they chooseto come to you or not, and so
it's actually they're hiring youmore than their, than the
employer is hiring the employee.
And so you start to realizewhen that's the case, you
actually need to study theemployees and say why, what
(10:45):
causes them to say today's theday I'm going to leave and what
causes you to say today's theday I'm going to move to this
thing better?
It's really, ultimately, we'retrying to get employees to hire
better because once you find theplace, it's the right place.
(11:10):
It's not work anymore.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Yeah, Right, yeah, I was.
I was thinking, mel, when you,when, when you said that like of
of how you're coaching peopleto interview just as much as
they're being interviewed.
That really changes the agency,it really changes the equation,
and I think it goes back towhat Bob said in the beginning
around luck is, the reasonpeople don't do it is they think
(11:36):
that I'm going to cross myfingers and just hope that this
works out and I'll be luckyenough to be the one chosen for
this job, and they're notthinking about what their
priorities are.
What does progress mean for meand that I get to choose?
Is this the job I'm going to doin exchange for the benefits
around, and not just aroundmoney, vacation, et cetera, but
also the work I get to do on adaily basis and who I interact
(11:58):
with, and so forth.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, I was equating it to being an adult and
realizing you still have freewill to make choices.
Like I want a piece of cake, soI'm going to go have one for
dinner, and you sometimes forget, in all of the everyday schmutz
of life, like, oh, I do haveagency and free will in these
choices.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
So we're the social contagion right Of like.
We tell ourselves thesenarratives of how we think we
want to be for others and how wethink we're supposed to show up
as opposed to.
Well, what do you want and howdo we understand that?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
The other thing to me is the fact is is that when you
study kind of the employee,employer side of this and you
learn about the job description,you realize that the job
description is just made up.
It's just made up and soeverybody's trying to morph
themselves to fit thisunrealistic ideal situation of
like make the people fit the job, when the reality is is what we
(12:53):
should be doing is actuallyshaping the work that to fit the
people.
Because when you actually dothat intentionally, you start to
realize like okay, I suck atthese three things, so, and it's
part of my job, so how do Iactually figure out how to get
rid of that and do more of thestuff I'm really good at and
find somebody to do the stuffthat I suck at?
And so it's this notion of like.
At some point, if you reallystudy how people make job
(13:13):
descriptions, it's either theycopy it, they do chat, gpt, they
then take all the things thatthey don't want to do and add it
to the list and it's just, andso as an employee, you don't
realize that that's actually allmade up and very negotiable in
some cases on certain dimensions.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I want to back up what you're saying because,
having led a lot of talentorganizations, I can tell you
that most people don't even knowwhat they're hiring for or what
they want people to really do.
And the idea of opening up theopportunity to have that
conversation and figure out howcould this fit together, I think
is really on the table, becauseit is shocking how many hiring
(13:54):
managers and, honestly, how manylike talent organizations don't
really know what they wanttheir people to do.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
By the way, the notion of a hiring manager.
I got confused by the wholeprocess because I'm thinking,
well, the hiring manager is theperson inside the HR.
I'm like no, no, that's theperson that actually they're
going to work for.
I'm like, yeah, but who teachesthem to write a job description
?
Nobody.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Nobody.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
It's compliance cut and paste For half the time
you're not even trained to be amanager.
You're trained to be a leader,but nobody teaches management
skills anymore right.
You're just left out on that.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
And this is why the job description has been so
enduring, right?
Is it's really a legal documentto give me justification for my
hiring and firing down the roadas well, More than to your
point, Francesca, like an actualset of what's this person going
to do?
How do I want them tocontribute?
What's the outcomes right?
What's the work?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, we need a whole revamp on the job description.
Yes, indeed.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Michael and I are going down that road.
It's like we wrote thisprimarily for employees, to
empower employees, because abillion people a year switch
jobs.
Most of them don't actuallyswitch jobs in a positive way,
and so part of it is how do weactually help them make better
decisions so they can actuallyfeel like they've made progress
in their career.
But along the way we'verealized like there's so much
about the employer around, kindof how do you manage, how do you
(15:10):
do performance reviews, how doyou think about fit, how do you
actually rethink the hiringprocess and all those kinds of
things, and it's really helpingus kind of rethink a different
way of kind of seeing it fromthat perspective.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
We love to see it.
So do we of seeing it from thatperspective.
We love to see it In the book.
You touched on the great talentshortage and what's happening
by 20, that it could exceed 85million people.
And we hear stories from folksall the time how they're
applying to a thousand jobs andthey have no luck, or they've
been out of work for a year,right.
But when you hear this onestory, there's this massive
(15:46):
talent shortage, and then youhear this other narrative that
nobody can find a job.
These two things areconflicting, right.
So I'm hoping I can do somemyth busting with you both here.
Do employees actually hold thecard.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
So I think it's interesting.
And let's just go deeper in theparadox, because the other
piece of this is, if you lookedat the job market, you'd be like
it's actually really healthywhat economists consider full
employment, and people arecoming off long-term
unemployment and coming into thejob market, et cetera, et
cetera, et cetera, and yet it'staking longer and longer to hire
.
There's articles like in theWall Street Journal even Harvard
(16:22):
MBAs can't find jobs, and sothere's all this anxiety on all
sides of the market and I thinkwhat's happening is that there's
a lot of paralysis because ofthat lack of clarity that we
were just talking about of whatdo I really want?
How would I know someone canactually do the things that I
want them to do, and do theyreally know what they want to do
(16:43):
and the trade-offs they'rewilling to make to go get it?
So there's like a lot of lackof clarity on all sides.
Might there be a skills gap?
That's contributing Absolutely,but might it also be that we
just don't have clarity aboutwhat work looks like and should
be and so forth?
I think also the case, and interms of this talent shortage.
(17:03):
Look, all these are projectionsbased off of a lot of macro
stuff, so I think, believe it asfar as you can throw a piece of
paper, but I think the bottomline is that we know that
there's a lot of change inskills.
Ai is certainly changing thejob market.
The baby boomers are leaving,millennials are starting to
retire, there are lower birthrates of people coming up
(17:25):
underneath, and so that's sortof the dynamic in which you have
this maelstrom we justdescribed.
But from my perspective,employees do carry a lot more
cards than they realize or wouldbe employees.
But it's not through thisanonymous online posting pray
for quote, unquote luck rightApproach.
(17:46):
It's instead getting clarityabout myself what are my
priorities, what's the work Iwant to do, and looking for fit,
rather than just hoping someonehires me and me being able to
go to the employer and be likethis is what I can do, this is
what I suck at.
This is how I can help you andhave that conversation, because
(18:07):
I think it's a very differentdialogue when you're coming in
with your cards, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Face up that way, market has been automating the
insanity because at some pointit starts at what I call there's
three layers of language.
There's a pablum layer oflanguage where we can, hey, how
was your day?
Oh, it was great, right, but itreally wasn't great.
Or if it was great, what madeit be great right?
And you start to realize thatyou have to get down from the
pablum level to the fantasylevel, past the fantasy down to
(18:32):
the causal level, like whatcaused it to be a great day
right?
And so part part of it is whatthey did is they literally are
taking everybody's resume.
They're filtering it in certainways.
They're basically doing allthese words Like I was trying to
be on a public board and one ofthe things that they said is I
had to have the word businessleader in my CV like four to
eight times, or I wouldn't evenget past the filter.
I'm like what's that?
(18:52):
Like, how does that work?
I'm an engineer and I wastaught to simplify and then
automate, and so part of this iswhat we're trying to do is like
how do we get this down to?
What is a good job look likefor me as an employee?
What's the work that I need toget done.
That helps me as thecorporation.
And how do we?
Actually it's fit.
It's just like product, marketfit, but it's employee, employer
fit, and so it's this notion ofbeing able to do that and I
(19:14):
think, like you said, if we stayat the pablum level, it's going
to look like employment's goingto get bigger and bigger and
bigger.
Because when your answer to thequestion is what's your greatest
weakness?
Oh, I work too hard.
That's just not like.
Come on, everybody sucks atsomething and you have to be
able to actually be veryarticulated.
What we found from the book isthat when people can talk about
(19:36):
look, I love to do these things,I get energy from doing this
and oh, by the way, I can dothese things, but they really
suck the energy out of me.
It allows people to actually behumble and become real.
Which the pieces of paper?
Speaker 4 (19:47):
don't do If we can just stay on it for one second
right.
Essentially, the employerswe've already established are
looking for unicorns, like thesehuge job descriptions with all
these skills and whatever else.
So the individuals on paper arethen constructing themselves to
look like superheroes, whichthe employers don't believe.
And so if you come in therewith an articulate conversation
(20:07):
around, this is where I getenergy, this is what I'm awesome
at, this sucks my energy, thisis what I suck at, etc.
Etc.
You're being honest and now wecan talk about fit and you go
from one of a thousandapplications to one of three or
four people who actually aregoing to fill what I need to
make progress on the employerside.
(20:27):
But it's because we've brokenout of this game of like
unicorns and superheroes that weall know is a lie.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Oh, agreed, it sounds like you have another book in
your back pocket with theclarity shortage going on on
both sides.
So the unicorns.
As a former recruiter, oh yeah,working with folks wanting the
unicorn.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I think the other part is it's what the resume has
, is what you did, it's not whatyou do, and just because you
did, it means you don't like todo it.
And so again it's this lack ofclarity around what do you want
to be doing and what are youactually good at and what gives
you energy?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
It's like this massive search for honesty on
both sides.
I feel like if the job marketwas dating, this would just be
like.
You know what I'm saying.
You know it's like.
(21:29):
This is how you mentioned.
A million people change jobsevery year.
That's 30% of the workforce,which I think most people don't
think that many people changejobs, but they do.
And the reasons why yououtlined in the book.
You talk about four quests.
What are those reasons whypeople leave?
Speaker 4 (21:47):
First, as a sort of prelude, we found 30 forces that
are pushing and pulling peopleto say, today's the day I might
want to switch, and when certaincombinations of them come
together, they overwhelm theanxieties and the habits that
are sort of holding us in place.
And so the four quests forprogress are essentially looking
at the clusters, or closest toeach other, if you will.
(22:09):
That comprise a quest, or whatBob earlier would have called
the job to be done.
And so the first one we saw iswhat we call get out.
So these are people I don'tlike the way I'm being managed.
This is a job to nowhere.
The company's going nowhere,fast stuff like that.
It's a lot of push right andthey're like I got to get out
and fast.
(22:29):
On the flip side of that,there's what we call the take
the next steppers, if you will,and these are people like hey,
career, personal, whatever lifemilestones hitting, I'm ready to
take that next step in mycareer.
It feels almost like thelogical next thing I would do.
This is the closest to thecareer ladder, although it's not
synonymous with it, and sort ofit feels like I'm going to
(22:49):
build on what gives me energy.
I'm going to build on mycurrent capabilities and let's
keep on margin.
Those are sort of the two poles, if you will.
And then we have folks that sayI want to regain alignment.
And so these are people who sayI actually like how I'm
energized at the moment, but Idon't like what they're asking
(23:10):
me in terms of my capabilitiesto do, or I feel fundamentally
disrespected on the what I do,and so these are people that I
want to regain alignment interms of the skills assets that
I get to use on the job.
And then, on the other side ofit is the regain control folks,
and they're basically saying Iactually, in this case, like
what I get to do, but I don'tlike how it engages my energy or
(23:33):
my time and things like that.
I feel fundamentally out ofwhack.
This might be the work-lifebalance folks, as an example.
This might be people that sayI'm being micromanaged.
This might be people saying God, they're telling me I have to
come into the office five days aweek when I know I do the job
well, when I get to work twodays at home, what the heck's
going on here?
So these are the folks that arelooking to regain control.
(23:56):
And basically these are fourquests.
They're not absolute.
As you probably saw when youtake the quiz.
It gives you sort of a mostlikely fit score for each of
them, but it helps youunderstand what's progress for
me right now.
And I'll give you a classicexample.
If you're like regain controland you're just going to march
(24:16):
up the totem pole and take thenext logical job right on the
mythical career ladder in yourcurrent employer, that's
probably going to be afundamental mismatch for the
things that you're actuallylooking for, and so you really
want to understand what'sdriving me, what's causing me to
say today's the day and thenstart to use that as a sorting
mechanism.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah, the assessment is really powerful and I
consider myself someone that issavvy when it comes to my career
or even knowing myself.
I feel like I try to be veryintrospective and I will tell
you, when I read the book, Irealized that I haven't been as
introspective as I could havethroughout my career.
I was just like go to whateverwas paying more or the next step
(24:59):
up.
It was one of those two things.
That's how I made my choices,even though it wasn't
necessarily the work I liked todo, or even putting myself in a
healthier situation.
And I'm wondering, flippingthis from, like, an employer
perspective, why shouldemployers care about the four
quests?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
The reason is twofold is like, at some point the
current employees are going towant to make progress and if you
don't have opportunities thatactually match the quests of
where they want to go, thereality is that they're going to
have to go somewhere else, andso that's the first aspect here
is that when we talk abouttrying to have company loyalty,
it really is.
It's not company loyalty likebrand loyalty.
(25:39):
This is literally like I'mwilling to stay because you're
actually looking out for me.
Most people, they end up havingto take a job because there's a
vacancy in the job and the factis it's not part of their
career path, and they end uphaving to slot in because, oh,
we have this opportunity for you, but it's not with any respect
to who they are necessarily orwhat they want to do.
(26:02):
It's so we can actually keep thebusiness going.
So I think part of that is one.
I think the second part is thatto realize these quests, you
can actually recruit completelydifferently.
Go find people who are actuallywanting to get out, Because at
some point in time right now,when we put a job out there,
we're only looking for thepeople who've already raised
their hand.
But I know that he's got thesepushes I can attract and say,
hey, don't want to bemicromanaged anymore, Want to
actually have a place where youcan do these kinds of things.
(26:23):
Come, come, talk to us.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
My favorite recent example of a recruiter doing
this really well was on LinkedInthis week where, in response to
Zuckerberg's recent interviewwith Joe Rogan, an interview
called out hey, if you don'twant to work for a guy like that
in an aggressive environment,come work for us, and it was
flooded with comments.
So I just think it'sinteresting for companies.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
you know they'll win if they get ahead of it, and
that's the thing is.
But I think the employers haveto realize they have to talk
about.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
What's the work you want me to do Is it the work you
want them to do and is it alsokind of tapping into that
emotional need around, what theyneed to see in the quest, for
example?
You mentioned like if you don'twant to be micromanaged, but is
it tapping into that questlanguage?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yes, and it's using that language we talk about.
There's things that push you toleave and there's things that
pull you to the new job, andit's ultimately the trade-offs
you make that actually make ithappen.
For example, who's thinkingabout leaving?
We talked to people who reallyleft their job and went
somewhere else, and so there's abig difference between wanting
to do it and doing it, and soultimately, there's a certain
amount of energy that has to bepart of it, and we have to
(27:30):
understand both sides of that.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
I think it's a really cool hack also right If you're
a marketer or if you're tryingto attract and understanding who
you're trying to attract thepushes and pulls that cause
people to leave.
This is ultimately like theirlanguage, lived experience.
This is like actually what'shappening to them.
It's not invented from what wewould call the supply side.
(27:53):
The company is imagining whysomeone might want to come to
them.
Companies imagining why someonemight want to come to them.
This is the real energy thatcauses someone to say today's
the day and you get to use thatto get the people that are right
for your role.
And, by the way, you get tocontinue to use that information
on the day-to-day.
Because here's the third thing Iwould say we know that roughly
two-thirds, depending on thesurvey of workers are completely
(28:16):
disengaged.
Call it quietly quittingwhatever you want to do from
their current role.
That's not an employee I wantto be hiring on my team.
That's not someone I want.
I want someone who's engaged,hard charging, doing a great job
.
So how do I make sure Iunderstand the forces acting on
them right now so I can betterengage the people that I
(28:38):
actually want to keep on my team?
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I work mostly in the startup world and so I have some
people have taken this andthey've taken the pushes, which
are, you know, do you feelmicromanaged?
Are you pushed across yourbillies?
Are you bored?
Do you not know where to gonext?
Like there's a list of 13 kindof things that have to happen,
and if any four of them happen,that's when you start to get
activated.
But they're using that as partof the sit down and the
(29:00):
quarterly review to say are anyof these things happening?
If they are, let's talk aboutthem, because if there's no push
, there's no way they're goingto start thinking about anything
else, and so part of it is torealize that the pushes are the
things that actually create thespace in the brain for you to
kind of go like all right, I gotto look somewhere else.
So there's these little things,but those little things then
accumulate into two things, andthen three things, and then four
(29:21):
things is where you go allright, it's time for me to look.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, I think, organizationally doing those
kinds of audits as a team oreven as an org I'm thinking for
my own work and doing likeculture strategy looking at
those things and seeing is thistrue in our organization, is
this the type of culture we have?
And then we can get into themarketing exercise of saying, if
you want this, this is whereyou can come in terms of us.
So that's awesome.
(29:44):
I want to go back to theemployee side, because in the
book you also talk about thingslike progress versus progression
and I'm curious if you can talkthrough that.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
So progression is that career ladder, the supply
side right, we have our orgcharts.
Career ladder, the supply sideright, we have our org charts.
You come in as an entry-levelworker, probably an individual
contributor.
We imagine that you start tomove up, you become manager,
director, right, on and on andon, and it's sort of that
climbing of the career ladder,the next step.
We just keep on thisprogression.
It's the thing that drives.
(30:12):
Frankly, mel, like your friendwho's like I had to be making
this amount of money right,because that's progression,
whereas progress is all thethings we've been talking around
, these quests and what isdriving your energy and getting
more of that in the next role,in the current context you're in
, and so forth, and those thingssometimes line up Progression
(30:33):
as an organization or employerwould think about it and
progress as an individual.
But our research suggests thatat least 75% of the time they're
not lining up that there'sactually divergence between the
two.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
That's huge.
I think the other part, though,is that as you start to think
about it is when you get toprogress.
Most people feel like they havetwo lives.
I have a work life and I have ahome life.
The reality is we have one life, we don't have two and two
lives I have a work life and Ihave a home life.
The reality is we have one life, we don't have two, and the
fact is is we have to learn howto merge the two, and the reason
why somebody might be great forthe position but something
happens at home, got to takecare of the parents, have babies
(31:07):
, whatever it is, the fact is,life changes and then, all of a
sudden, what you want to makeprogress on before is very
different than now, and nobodytakes into account that we have
one life and we have a wholebunch of things we have to move
and, ultimately, how do we makeof these spheres as very
separate you?
Speaker 4 (31:21):
jumped on your career track.
You stayed there and that wasit, and then you had your life
and that was going on.
(31:41):
I don't think that was everreally true to Bob's point.
But now individuals are livingincreasingly in a way that shows
just how much of a lie that isand how interdependent our
careers and the rest of ourlives are.
And it's one of the reasons Bobwill tell someone when he's
coaching them he's like look,you don't have to get it all in
(32:02):
the job.
You can have a side hustle andthen you can volunteer here and
then make sure you're doing thisthere and together you get the
things that are most importantto you.
But you look holistically andorganizations need to sort of
recognize that that's true fortheir employees.
They can put their head in thesand and pretend it's not, but
that doesn't mean theindividuals aren't going to live
their lives that way.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
This might be an obvious question, but why don't
you think people have done thistype of introspection before,
like why it's hard, it's hard,it's hard.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
I mean, one of the things is we wrote the book, we
have nine steps, like, and ifyou do all nine steps, you're
gonna be like amazing, but thereality is not everybody's gonna
do every step and but there arethere's three or four of these
steps are really reallyessential.
For example, energy drivers andenergy drains.
You need to start to payattention to where are those
moments where you walk into asituation and you get energy.
(32:53):
That's a thing you need toactually pay attention to, and
the fact is is most people don'tpay attention to that, or they
know it but they don't accountfor it and they don't actually
think about, like, what is itabout this situation that gives
me energy?
Is it the people?
Is it the topic?
Is it the pressure?
There's variables in thatsituation that does that, and so
it's making people way moremindful about where do they get
(33:14):
their energy from and where doestheir energy go when it gets
sucked out.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
I, yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
The biggest question we oftenget when we show the pushes and
pulls to audiences, they say,like money's not on that list or
like the surface level thing,and I think the thing is like
we've been telling ourselves astory.
Bob would call it at the pablumlevel, I would call it.
You know, we're not yet atcausality right, and so what I
(33:42):
think this book and the researchfrankly does is we drill down
into real root causes and thenwe gave language to that
causality.
That hopefully makes it I don'twant to say it's easy, it's not
, but easier so that more peoplecan start to identify what
really is driving me at thispoint in time.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I know we can't cover the full nine-step journey and
I think folks absolutely need toread your books, but one of the
pieces of the journey thatstood out to me was the
experiences, not features.
Part of that.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean features.
Right are the things like themoney, the vacation, the title,
all those sort of surface levelor problem level that we were
talking about before.
Experiences are what do Iactually do on a day-to-day
basis in the role the doingright and, as Bob would push us,
what will you do as opposed towhat have you done, and what is
(34:56):
this going to look like and howis it going to integrate with
the rest of your life on aday-to-day basis?
The analogy we use in the bookis thinking about real estate
listings where they tout lots offeatures natural light, granite
countertops, bob's built homesso he can talk more about this
and the reality is they allstart to blend into each other
(35:16):
and it's not until you actuallythink about how am I actually
going to live in this space,what are the experiences that I
want, that then featuresactually start to take on
meaning around.
How will it or won't it workwith my life?
Right, in my case, any house Ilive in.
I need a quiet space where Ican do my work, where the kids
are not going to interfere andrun around as they come home
(35:39):
from school and the like.
That all of a sudden givesdefinition to what is a good or
bad choice for me, not whetherthere's natural light and
granite countertops in theabstract.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
The reason why I love the house one is you can look
at a listing, but you don't knowwhat it's like to live in that
house until you go there.
And so part of it is thisreality is like where's the
grocery store and who are theneighbors and where's school.
And you start to realize atsome point they tell you all
about the house but you don'teven get a feel for like how to
live in it.
And so it's this notion of,well, we'll get you a virtual
tour.
That's not the thing, man tour.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
That's not the thing, man.
No right.
My mother-in-law right now islooking at downsizing and she
sent us a place that she clearlyhad never been to and I was
like, oh boy, that's a busyintersection, there's no way
that's going to work.
But she had to go.
She went and she emailed me.
She's like, wow, that's a busyintersection, no way that's
going to work.
And I'm like yep.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
There's an airport nearby or a church bell goes off
.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
every Sunday it's like a Burger King on one side
and a McDonald's drive-thru onthe other, and I was like I
already know the answer to thisquestion, but go for it.
But part of it is they have toexperience it?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
No, the experience is important.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Right and her imagining oh wow, what's my
day-to-day going to look like?
Against that, there's nothingthat replaces that.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, got to do your homework, got to do your
homework.
I want to flip over to wherework is going, because I mean
I'm excited to be alive rightnow, but there's just a ton of
shit happening eitherpolitically with AI, yada, yada.
Where do you see work going inthe next two to five years,
especially as it relates to jobmovement?
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Look, obviously the velocity is high right now and
the anxiety around it, I think,is higher.
I think the reality is AI atthe moment is more of an
efficiency innovation.
It's sort of automating andallowing us to do what we
already did a little bit better.
I think the evidence issuggesting it actually helps
those who are lowest performersbe better.
I do think the reality is it'staking out a lot of entry-level
(37:34):
work right away, a lot ofemployers, the jobs that they
had open as entry-level roles.
They're taking them off thetable, and so that's, I think,
where it's maybe making thebiggest immediate impact because
they can imagine how AI allowsthat next person on the rung to
quickly use that tool to do itand then actually become more
productive.
For people starting theircareers or switching industries
(37:57):
or whatnot, getting experienceswhen you're out of before the
job market, in schooling,internships, entrepreneurially,
side hustles, whatever it is isgoing to become more and more
important to show you know whatto do and you can actually do
the work.
I think the bigger termtransformations that people love
to sort of dream and speculateabout.
(38:19):
My own belief is that that'snot going to come until new
business models andorganizations are built around
these technologies sort oforganically and it goes to how
every technology has made itsbiggest impact, whether it's
electricity, where peoplerealize, oh, we can distribute,
we don't have to put everythingaround the watermill anymore and
things like that, and we can dofactories differently, or I
(38:42):
mean even frankly, digitaladvertising, when it's sort of a
P&G brand that wants everyoneto come in the store because of
the way they've thought aboutconsumer packaged goods, versus
a startup that's thinking muchmore targeted, performance-based
advertising.
Technologies, I think, are mosttransformational when business
models are actually built aroundthem as an enabler, as opposed
(39:03):
to trying to cram it into theexisting models.
I think we're a few years awayfrom that still.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Yeah, we're just starting to see people think
about AI-first organizations.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, I look back to history on this.
When I was early in theworkforce, I worked at Ford and
they had something called thetyping pool.
This was just a bunch of peoplewho wrote, who typed, and they
had carbon paper the whole.
You guys have no idea that thisexisted, but the big thing was
like, what is word processinggoing to do to the typing pool?
And you started to realize thatit's somebody.
(39:32):
Everybody was against itbecause the typing pool is going
to go away.
Where are they going to work?
Well, it turns out those peoplecould actually write copy and
they could do all these otherthings and do much higher level
things.
And so, channeling Clay here,clay would say what we want to
do is have people work at thetop of their profession, and the
work that sucks is the workthat we want AI to be doing for
us.
The thing is, we will stillthink more than AI, but AI can
(39:56):
actually provide us the input toactually help us think better.
I think that what's going tohappen is it's going to force
people to be kind of again.
You know, my children ask mewhen they're like, what's going
to happen to all the cab driverswhen we have self-driving cars,
they're going to figure outsomething else to do.
They don't get to retire andthey don't get to move out of
that thing and they'll always besomebody who wants to actually
(40:16):
have a human in the cab.
But the reality is it's changingthe market and basically being
able to say but how do we gethumans as a whole to basically
step up to the next level?
Because we got some technologythat can take care of things at
the lowest level that we don'tneed to worry about.
I'm very bullish on where it'sgoing to go.
The question is do peoplereally want to work differently
(40:37):
and think better and harder?
Speaker 3 (40:39):
I think that's the thing, because it's like, when
you think about, we can do thishigher level thinking, this
higher work as well, that doestake work, because it's breaking
out of what we've been doing Imean, we're talking about
knowing thyself in this wholeconversation and then it's like
how do you get to that higherlevel?
But I think we'll get there.
We have gotten there before,we'll get there, it's just the
next.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
And there'll be dislocation right as we go
through it, like there's goingto be a whole bunch of people in
the moment that it's stressfuland they're going to have to
work through it and we'll figureit out.
But I think over time Bob'sright, that's the direction it
goes and the pathway at themoment, frankly, is those people
who help people make progresson that journey.
They're going to becomeemployers of choice as well, in
(41:20):
my mind.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Anything you would recommendemployees do now.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
I think having a clear sense of your strengths
but maybe equally what you'renot strong at and you don't want
to do and what you are going tochoose to sort of say I'm going
to suck at, so that you knowwhat to build on and you know
what to let others do, or let AIdo for you, or whatever it
might be, I think is a reallyimportant step.
And then the second one comesfrom the book.
(41:48):
It's this career balance sheetidea.
This is where I think this ideais powerful is understanding
the useful life of your currentassets and where and how am I
going to have to invest to makethem still relevant in the
future and have some sense of?
Are those trade-offs that Iwant to make in terms of my time
and money to keep those thingscurrent, or are there other
things I want to invest in?
Speaker 1 (42:07):
The thing to me, is the energy drivers and energy
drains.
Like the fact is is just beingable to know what are the things
that have to come together toenable you to have energy is
when I'm coaching people.
What I'm doing is I'm like Iwant you to go through the next
week and just start to writedown when it happens because I
don't think people are actuallyaware of it and then start to
(42:28):
then parameterize it tounderstand, like what's going on
Well, oh, I get to learn a lotof new things, okay, or, or it's
I get to organize things.
Like my wife is in finance andthe thing is my wife loves to
balance.
Like when it balances, it'slike I hit a serotonin.
Like, oh, my god, I just likethat balance is perfect.
I'm like, yeah, I I get nothingfrom that, but she gets a lot of
it's knowing where it comesfrom, but then all the
(42:51):
conversely, knowing when theenergy gets pulled out of you,
because a lot of times you're socaught up emotionally that like
it's almost like you need tostep back from yourself and look
at the situation and go likewhy is this basically draining
all my energy?
What's going on here?
And it's like it's people, it's, it's situations, it's time of
day, it's like a whole bunch ofthings and start to see those
(43:11):
patterns.
I it's like a whole bunch ofthings and start to see those
patterns.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
I think that's, to me , the biggest advice I'd give
people and, by the way, I don'twant this to be said the wrong
way, but I think it's actuallythe easiest step you can reflect
on in the book in many ways,because, as Bob said, it's not
something that I have to lockmyself into a closet and think
three hours.
It's literally I'm living life.
When am I in flow?
When did that suck?
(43:34):
Okay, start to notice thepatterns, start to interrogate
it.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Right, just keep a sticky right and start noticing
and unpacking them.
I did it on my cell phone.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
It's kind of like keeping a food diary it's not,
and it's just you know, you justget it in the habit.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
It's an excellent exercise.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
And the cool thing is , you don't have to then figure
out how big was that portion andhow do I measure it, because
that's the part about the fooddiary I could never figure out.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
We like to do rapid round because we want to know
you as human beings, aside fromjust your work and your book.
Does that sound okay?
Speaker 4 (44:13):
Yep, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
All right.
What music are you listening toright now?
Speaker 4 (44:17):
I'm eclectic on music tastes.
I've been really into theMerrily we Roll Along soundtrack
, though the last week and ahalf I have not been able to get
it out of my head.
We saw it on Broadway a fewmonths ago at this point, I
guess, and it all of a suddencame back into my
subconsciousness.
So I've been really enjoyingthat.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
So I'm listening to mostly I don't know the kind of
music, but it's basically BobbyAlua and Matt Duncan.
It's a little bit of reggae, alittle bit of beach vibe, a
little bit of background beat,but it's just.
It's one of those things where,because I'm ADHD, like I like
to have the same music play overand over and over again, and so
it's one of those things I'mdeep down into that one where
(44:59):
it's like I've probably listenedto the same playlist now 50
times.
So that's where I'm at Nothingwrong with that.
It just it just makes itlighter.
It's a, it's light and airy.
That's all I can tell you.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
And does it make you feel warm, even though it's five
?
Speaker 1 (45:14):
degrees it reminds me of going to Mexico is what it
does and it's like okay, here wego.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, love it.
Okay, what are you readingright now?
Speaker 4 (45:24):
I'm currently reading a draft of my father's book
that he thinks he's writing forpublication.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
He thinks Well based on what I'm reading, so you're
getting the feedback before.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I'm giving it to him, so maybe I should just leave it
there.
Does he know our podcast?
Probably not.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
He's got some more work to do.
If he thinks it's ready forprimetime, okay.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
How about you, Bob?
So for me I'm listening to.
I have a couple of books I waslistening to.
One is called Radical Humility.
It's very interesting.
I would say I learned myhumility from the best, who was
Clay Christensen, but ultimatelyI didn't understand kind of
like the components of how itworks and what it is and the
reality is.
It's very interesting to kindof see how this person has
(46:09):
basically broken it down andfigured it out.
The other book I'm reading isFingerprints of the Gods.
I'm very deep into basicallyelectromagnetic waves and
basically geometry and how thetwo work together, and so it's
just this notion of a lot ofthings in ancient history.
Take into account this notionof geometry and frequencies and
just I don't know why I'm downthere, but it's very fun, Very
(46:31):
fun for me.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
You know, in Chichen Itza, where if you clap it makes
the sound of the bird in Mexico.
Is that related to this?
Speaker 1 (46:39):
book.
The notion is that frequency,like everything, has a frequency
and everything actuallygenerates a frequency.
And when you start to seenatural harmonics happen, it's
kind of when you get thosemoments where you get energy.
It's related back to energydrivers and drains.
But it really is this notion oflike, where does that emotion
come from and how do youactually get it?
And it comes from, I believe,electromagnetic waves and
(47:01):
basically geometry.
So it's very deep, very deepdown the rabbit hole.
Sorry, no, don't apologize.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
I have a million more questions, but yeah, who do you
both really admire?
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Am I allowed to say Bob?
I feel like Bob is someone whohas superpowers, who sees around
corners before things happenbecause of his superpowers and
knew we would be friends andcolleagues and get to
collaborate with each other Wellbefore I understood this fact.
And the reality is it's likeit's come together because he
(47:33):
understands causality in a waythat I'm constantly aspiring and
learning from.
So I'll say you, bob, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to say you,
no, I have a feeling I know whoyou're going to say yeah, I have
to say my wife.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
I most admire my wife .
So I'm a neurodivergent person.
I've had three close head braininjuries.
I can't read, I can't write.
I've done seven startups, I'veworked on 3,500 products.
I've had four children in fiveyears, but my wife is the one
who holds it all together.
And that is just one of thosethings where I'm working on a
(48:06):
book now around relationshipsand finding your life partner.
And one of the things yourealize is I thought when I got
married I could not possiblylove my wife anymore and I
realized it was actually thelowest point of how much I love
my wife.
And it's just grown so muchthat we've been married to 35
years and it's just one of thosethings where we've been able to
kind of just move.
And it's one of those thingswhere who are opposites don't
(48:31):
get along well or there'sthere's always friction, but we
know how to actually dancetogether very well and so it's
it's it's just, it's just a joyto spend time with her and be
with her oh someone cuttingonions in here.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, I'm like, oh shit, I'm getting teared up I
knew he was gonna pull at theheartstrings all right last
question what's one piece ofadvice you want everyone to know
, and it can be related to thebook or just something personal
that you want to share?
Speaker 1 (49:04):
I will tell you that I think that people should be
much more cognizant, explicit,intentional about the progress
they're trying to make in theirlife.
Every time you buy something,every time you change something,
it always has an intention, andthe more you can actually
become intentional about it,that one is the less change
you'll make and the moremeaningful changes you'll make.
(49:25):
And so this is just one examplein your career.
But like finding your lifepartner, buying a new pair of
socks, Like I know it soundscrazy, but the fact is is all of
them have that same thing oflike.
Do I really need a new pair ofsocks?
And why do I need a new pair ofsocks?
And how are these socks betterthan the socks I had before?
And so being intentional aboutthe changes in the purchases you
(49:45):
make is probably one of themost satisfying things you can
do, because it allows you toactually be explicit about the
progress you make and takecontrol of your life.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
Far be it for me to try to build on that, because
I've tried to take this into myown life, as Bob knows, with
every decision I make.
Now I'll say something totallydifferent, which is a motto that
I always live by, which is akuna matata from Lion King.
But no worries, I think weoverstress and have a lot of
anxiety that are about thingsthat we can't control, and we
(50:17):
should focus much more on thethings that we can and worry
less about the details and keepthe big picture in mind.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I love it.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us
myself, mel Plett and FrancescaRanieri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you loved this conversation
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
(50:48):
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagram, so please join us inthe socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(51:08):
Take care, friends.
Bye friends.
Bye friends.
Just because you're good at it doesn't mean you like
to do it.
Yeah, part of it is being ableto actually know who you are and
know what you're good at.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I almost wore that same lipstick today that would
have been hilarious.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Sometimes you just need, like a, just a boost you
know, yeah, so really it looksreally beautiful.
Thank you Honestly.
There's just so much schmutzgoing on in the world right now
the news cycle I cannot I cannot, I can't keep up with this news
cycle Listen.
We had a pretty kick-assconversation last week.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This has been one of my most favorite discussions in
a long long time.
I mean, I love all our guests,but this has just been a really.
It was just a rad conversation.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yeah, I thought so too.
We talked to Michael B Horn andBob Moesta.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, Michael Horn is the co-founder of the Clayton
Christensen Institute and heteaches at Harvard Graduate
School of Education.
And Bob is the founder ofRewired Group and also an
(01:28):
adjunct lecturer at the KelloggSchool of Management for
Northwestern University and alsoa fellow of the Clayton
Christensen Institute and justall around amazing human beings
to talk to us about their newbook, Job Moves, Job Moves.
As someone who has been deeplyinvolved with talent acquisition
and now I do career coachingfor individuals, I just think
the tool that they've pulledtogether on their website and
understanding the quest thatyou're on which, by the way, we
all have four quests that wetypically are on to decide what
(01:48):
our next move is going to beHighly recommend reading the
book just to understand that.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
This book, honestly, is giving people permission to
hire their next job.
We are all in that position.
This is not where you're at themercy of employers.
This is really permission andan amazing opportunity and,
honestly, the data to tell youno, what you really need to do
is be honest with yourself aboutwhat you want, what your
strengths are, and then go outthere and hire your next job.
(02:13):
This conversation was so funfor me just because a they're
just so well-researched, greatconversationalists and, honestly
, gave a lot of really greattips on how do you really think
about hiring your next job.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, if you want to feel empowered with your career
and the decisions you're makingaround your career, this is the
book to read and this is theepisode to listen to.
So with that, here's Michaeland Bob.
(02:52):
Let's just get to the pointreal quick.
What's the biggest myth thatfolks tell themselves about
their career, growth or progress?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
The one that surprised me the most was how
much they thought they got luckyto get their next job, and when
you really kind of unpackedeverything they said and how
they did it, luck is more thefact that they were prepared and
the opportunity appeared andthey were able to actually seize
it, and so I wouldn't call thatluck, but they wouldn't assign
any kind of causation to it.
And what we found was thatthere are very simple things
(03:23):
that actually have to happen toyou to make you ready for the
next job and then all of asudden, you only see them when
these other things happen to you.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
So that's one of them .
Bob, you stole mine.
I was going to say the exactsame thing, so I agree.
The only other thing I mightadd is I think people discount
the role that their networkplays for them when they're
looking for a job.
They think it's a very sololike.
I applied online to hundreds ofjobs.
These days, increasingly, AIsupported me and they don't
(03:54):
realize the importance of theirnetwork as part of that process
that Bob alluded to.
Coming in, making them aware ofopportunities, helping them get
the job, being the trustedbroker right so that I will
trust and actually hire you.
Most jobs are filled by someonethat you know in network.
They're not filled by anonymous, random things.
So that's the second one Imight add is people discount the
(04:18):
role of their network aroundthem.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I'm going to add a third.
The third thing to me was money.
Money is a means to an end, somoney turns out to be about
respect, or money turns out tobe I have to provide for my
family.
More Like.
There's like five or sixdifferent definitions of why
people want more money, not one.
And you start to realize likepeople are mixing them all up
and they're just using thatlever of here.
Let me offer you more money,and it's it's not just more
(04:42):
money that makes job the worksatisfying.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I love to hear you say that, because I just had a
conversation with a friend whowas feeling so down on
themselves because they hadn'treached what they felt was
success in terms of salary.
And she's worked withincredible people, incredible
organizations, but somehow thatwas the sole thing telling her
(05:06):
or at least her own narrativethat she has not been successful
because of that one element.
So it's good to remember thatdoesn't define your true success
.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Well, but the fact is it's one of the wrong metrics,
but it's a metric of how whatsuccess or progress feels like
for them, and so when you startto put that there, you don't
have the why of like.
Really what I want is respect,and ultimately there's other
ways to get respect, and so thisis why, for example, sometimes
a position change will actuallyhelp people feel that progress,
and without a salary increase.
(05:34):
There's many variables here atplay and ultimately it was very
fascinating because we didalmost like the exit interview
but the real exit interviews.
We did over a thousand of themand it was so fun to hear the
stories and what had to happento them to make them ready to
look and then ultimately howthey found it.
It was kind of what the book isall about.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, I love it.
What gets in the way of trueprogress?
What?
How do we remove it?
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Part of it is.
I mean, starting with that, wedon't actually know what
progress looks like for us,right?
So we'll tell ourselves thesestorylines.
Money is a great example.
I want more money, and once youwant more money, you want more
and more.
There's no limit to that, right, without understanding
underneath causality of what'sactually driving me to say these
are the things that are notgood enough in my current role,
(06:19):
these are the priorities that Ireally want to get in my next
role.
And so not really understandingwhat progress looks like for
you, I think is actually a bigthing that gets in the way of
progress.
And then the second one that'smaybe sort of goes in concert
with that is I don't actuallyknow how to make the trade-offs
for that next role to get theprogress that I really desire.
(06:42):
And the thinking behind that isa fewfold One.
There's no perfect job on everydimension.
Every job is going to have somesuck in it, it's going to have
some things that I don't loveabout it.
But what are the things thatI'm going to consciously choose,
not settle for, but say like,hey, I'm going to take the lower
salary so that I get thebasically non-existent commute,
(07:02):
I get to have the title I get tobe around my kids, whatever the
set of things are.
We could drill down deeper intoall of those, but how do I make
those trade-offs?
Most people, I think, don'tknow how to make those and as a
result, they get caught up inroles that sound good in paper.
They're quick returns to ego,but they're not actually helping
them make that progress.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, I believe it.
I think I've definitely foundmyself in that position, right.
And then, when you don'tmeasure the trade-offs and
what's really important to you,you find yourself in the same
position just two years later,like here I am again.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
The yellow brick road was supposed to lead somewhere,
but somehow I just looped backand we're right where we started
.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I have one more to add on this.
I think one of the other thingsis people don't have a
realistic or real understandingof what they're good at, what
they suck at, what gives themenergy, what they don't really
know who they are and howthey're driven.
They haven't taken the time tostudy themselves, and so that's
part of this is having peoplereflect back and find those
moments where they got energyand find out those moments where
(08:05):
the energy got sucked out ofthem.
And just because you're good atit doesn't mean you like to do
it, and so part of it is beingable to actually know who you
are and know what you're good at.
But I always think for me, thething to learn most is what do
you suck at and how do youactually realize like you don't
need to get better at that?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
You need to find a teammate who's actually who
loves to do this stuff you suckat, yeah, and actually, mel,
just stay on that for a moment,cause Bob put me on the hot seat
in the last week or two on this, where he was like saying but
you're so.
I stopped wanting to managepeople when my twin girls were
born in 2014.
And Bob was like but you'rereally good at managing, like
that was something that was likea superpower of yours, and I'm
like.
It was like but you're reallygood at managing.
(08:50):
That was like a superpower ofyours.
And I'm like it's the lastthing I freaking want to do.
And he was basically like right, because just because you're
good at it, the context changeddoesn't mean you get energy from
it anymore.
You did Right, but here's thething.
It goes back to your friend whowas telling themselves the
narrative of like I need to makethis much money or whatever it
is.
We often say like, oh, successis then I'm going to be a
manager and I'm going to havethis big team and I'm going to
measure based on the directreports and their direct reports
(09:11):
, and et cetera, et cetera.
And like maybe that isn't whatgives you energy at this stage,
even if it is something that youcould do, but we don't pay
attention to the context andthose signals about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, Just because you can doesn't mean you should
always right.
Just a good rule of thumb andyour, our priorities and our
values change over time, sothat's constantly like you have
your twins and so that's right.
Things change.
Okay.
Something I loved I'm going topivot really quick.
Something I really loved in thebook because, as a career coach
myself and a former recruiter,I always tell people you're
(09:49):
interviewing your employer justas much as they're interviewing
you as a reminder.
And what I really loved was youboth said it is critical to
hire your next job.
Why Tell our folks why?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
So this is one of the things that we flipped the lens
on, and we used a theory that Ibuilt with Clay Christensen
called jobs to be done, and thewhole premise is people don't
buy products, they hire them tomake progress in their life.
And so part of this was torealize, at some point in time,
when you talk to people aroundhiring, you start to realize
(10:25):
actually the lens is flipped.
And the fact is, know peoplearound hiring, you start to
realize, like it's actually thelens is flipped and the fact is
we, as an employer, you thinkyou hire somebody, but the fact
is everybody's an at willemployee, or most of them are at
will employees and they chooseto come to you or not, and so
it's actually they're hiring youmore than their, than the
employer is hiring the employee.
And so you start to realizewhen that's the case, you
actually need to study theemployees and say why, what
(10:45):
causes them to say today's theday I'm going to leave and what
causes you to say today's theday I'm going to move to this
thing better?
It's really, ultimately, we'retrying to get employees to hire
better because once you find theplace, it's the right place.
(11:10):
It's not work anymore.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Yeah, Right, yeah, I was.
I was thinking, mel, when you,when, when you said that like of
of how you're coaching peopleto interview just as much as
they're being interviewed.
That really changes the agency,it really changes the equation,
and I think it goes back towhat Bob said in the beginning
around luck is, the reasonpeople don't do it is they think
(11:36):
that I'm going to cross myfingers and just hope that this
works out and I'll be luckyenough to be the one chosen for
this job, and they're notthinking about what their
priorities are.
What does progress mean for meand that I get to choose?
Is this the job I'm going to doin exchange for the benefits
around, and not just aroundmoney, vacation, et cetera, but
also the work I get to do on adaily basis and who I interact
(11:58):
with, and so forth.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, I was equating it to being an adult and
realizing you still have freewill to make choices.
Like I want a piece of cake, soI'm going to go have one for
dinner, and you sometimes forget, in all of the everyday schmutz
of life, like, oh, I do haveagency and free will in these
choices.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
So we're the social contagion right Of like.
We tell ourselves thesenarratives of how we think we
want to be for others and how wethink we're supposed to show up
as opposed to.
Well, what do you want and howdo we understand that?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
The other thing to me is the fact is is that when you
study kind of the employee,employer side of this and you
learn about the job description,you realize that the job
description is just made up.
It's just made up and soeverybody's trying to morph
themselves to fit thisunrealistic ideal situation of
like make the people fit the job, when the reality is is what we
(12:53):
should be doing is actuallyshaping the work that to fit the
people.
Because when you actually dothat intentionally, you start to
realize like okay, I suck atthese three things, so, and it's
part of my job, so how do Iactually figure out how to get
rid of that and do more of thestuff I'm really good at and
find somebody to do the stuffthat I suck at?
And so it's this notion of like.
At some point, if you reallystudy how people make job
(13:13):
descriptions, it's either theycopy it, they do chat, gpt, they
then take all the things thatthey don't want to do and add it
to the list and it's just, andso as an employee, you don't
realize that that's actually allmade up and very negotiable in
some cases on certain dimensions.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I want to back up what you're saying because,
having led a lot of talentorganizations, I can tell you
that most people don't even knowwhat they're hiring for or what
they want people to really do.
And the idea of opening up theopportunity to have that
conversation and figure out howcould this fit together, I think
is really on the table, becauseit is shocking how many hiring
(13:54):
managers and, honestly, how manylike talent organizations don't
really know what they wanttheir people to do.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
By the way, the notion of a hiring manager.
I got confused by the wholeprocess because I'm thinking,
well, the hiring manager is theperson inside the HR.
I'm like no, no, that's theperson that actually they're
going to work for.
I'm like, yeah, but who teachesthem to write a job description
?
Nobody.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Nobody.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
It's compliance cut and paste For half the time
you're not even trained to be amanager.
You're trained to be a leader,but nobody teaches management
skills anymore right.
You're just left out on that.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
And this is why the job description has been so
enduring, right?
Is it's really a legal documentto give me justification for my
hiring and firing down the roadas well, More than to your
point, Francesca, like an actualset of what's this person going
to do?
How do I want them tocontribute?
What's the outcomes right?
What's the work?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, we need a whole revamp on the job description.
Yes, indeed.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Michael and I are going down that road.
It's like we wrote thisprimarily for employees, to
empower employees, because abillion people a year switch
jobs.
Most of them don't actuallyswitch jobs in a positive way,
and so part of it is how do weactually help them make better
decisions so they can actuallyfeel like they've made progress
in their career.
But along the way we'verealized like there's so much
about the employer around, kindof how do you manage, how do you
(15:10):
do performance reviews, how doyou think about fit, how do you
actually rethink the hiringprocess and all those kinds of
things, and it's really helpingus kind of rethink a different
way of kind of seeing it fromthat perspective.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
We love to see it.
So do we of seeing it from thatperspective.
We love to see it In the book.
You touched on the great talentshortage and what's happening
by 20, that it could exceed 85million people.
And we hear stories from folksall the time how they're
applying to a thousand jobs andthey have no luck, or they've
been out of work for a year,right.
But when you hear this onestory, there's this massive
(15:46):
talent shortage, and then youhear this other narrative that
nobody can find a job.
These two things areconflicting, right.
So I'm hoping I can do somemyth busting with you both here.
Do employees actually hold thecard.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
So I think it's interesting.
And let's just go deeper in theparadox, because the other
piece of this is, if you lookedat the job market, you'd be like
it's actually really healthywhat economists consider full
employment, and people arecoming off long-term
unemployment and coming into thejob market, et cetera, et
cetera, et cetera, and yet it'staking longer and longer to hire
.
There's articles like in theWall Street Journal even Harvard
(16:22):
MBAs can't find jobs, and sothere's all this anxiety on all
sides of the market and I thinkwhat's happening is that there's
a lot of paralysis because ofthat lack of clarity that we
were just talking about of whatdo I really want?
How would I know someone canactually do the things that I
want them to do, and do theyreally know what they want to do
(16:43):
and the trade-offs they'rewilling to make to go get it?
So there's like a lot of lackof clarity on all sides.
Might there be a skills gap?
That's contributing Absolutely,but might it also be that we
just don't have clarity aboutwhat work looks like and should
be and so forth?
I think also the case, and interms of this talent shortage.
(17:03):
Look, all these are projectionsbased off of a lot of macro
stuff, so I think, believe it asfar as you can throw a piece of
paper, but I think the bottomline is that we know that
there's a lot of change inskills.
Ai is certainly changing thejob market.
The baby boomers are leaving,millennials are starting to
retire, there are lower birthrates of people coming up
(17:25):
underneath, and so that's sortof the dynamic in which you have
this maelstrom we justdescribed.
But from my perspective,employees do carry a lot more
cards than they realize or wouldbe employees.
But it's not through thisanonymous online posting pray
for quote, unquote luck rightApproach.
(17:46):
It's instead getting clarityabout myself what are my
priorities, what's the work Iwant to do, and looking for fit,
rather than just hoping someonehires me and me being able to
go to the employer and be likethis is what I can do, this is
what I suck at.
This is how I can help you andhave that conversation, because
(18:07):
I think it's a very differentdialogue when you're coming in
with your cards, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Face up that way, market has been automating the
insanity because at some pointit starts at what I call there's
three layers of language.
There's a pablum layer oflanguage where we can, hey, how
was your day?
Oh, it was great, right, but itreally wasn't great.
Or if it was great, what madeit be great right?
And you start to realize thatyou have to get down from the
pablum level to the fantasylevel, past the fantasy down to
(18:32):
the causal level, like whatcaused it to be a great day
right?
And so part part of it is whatthey did is they literally are
taking everybody's resume.
They're filtering it in certainways.
They're basically doing allthese words Like I was trying to
be on a public board and one ofthe things that they said is I
had to have the word businessleader in my CV like four to
eight times, or I wouldn't evenget past the filter.
I'm like what's that?
(18:52):
Like, how does that work?
I'm an engineer and I wastaught to simplify and then
automate, and so part of this iswhat we're trying to do is like
how do we get this down to?
What is a good job look likefor me as an employee?
What's the work that I need toget done.
That helps me as thecorporation.
And how do we?
Actually it's fit.
It's just like product, marketfit, but it's employee, employer
fit, and so it's this notion ofbeing able to do that and I
(19:14):
think, like you said, if we stayat the pablum level, it's going
to look like employment's goingto get bigger and bigger and
bigger.
Because when your answer to thequestion is what's your greatest
weakness?
Oh, I work too hard.
That's just not like.
Come on, everybody sucks atsomething and you have to be
able to actually be veryarticulated.
What we found from the book isthat when people can talk about
(19:36):
look, I love to do these things,I get energy from doing this
and oh, by the way, I can dothese things, but they really
suck the energy out of me.
It allows people to actually behumble and become real.
Which the pieces of paper?
Speaker 4 (19:47):
don't do If we can just stay on it for one second
right.
Essentially, the employerswe've already established are
looking for unicorns, like thesehuge job descriptions with all
these skills and whatever else.
So the individuals on paper arethen constructing themselves to
look like superheroes, whichthe employers don't believe.
And so if you come in therewith an articulate conversation
(20:07):
around, this is where I getenergy, this is what I'm awesome
at, this sucks my energy, thisis what I suck at, etc.
Etc.
You're being honest and now wecan talk about fit and you go
from one of a thousandapplications to one of three or
four people who actually aregoing to fill what I need to
make progress on the employerside.
(20:27):
But it's because we've brokenout of this game of like
unicorns and superheroes that weall know is a lie.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Oh, agreed, it sounds like you have another book in
your back pocket with theclarity shortage going on on
both sides.
So the unicorns.
As a former recruiter, oh yeah,working with folks wanting the
unicorn.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I think the other part is it's what the resume has
, is what you did, it's not whatyou do, and just because you
did, it means you don't like todo it.
And so again it's this lack ofclarity around what do you want
to be doing and what are youactually good at and what gives
you energy?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
It's like this massive search for honesty on
both sides.
I feel like if the job marketwas dating, this would just be
like.
You know what I'm saying.
You know it's like.
(21:29):
This is how you mentioned.
A million people change jobsevery year.
That's 30% of the workforce,which I think most people don't
think that many people changejobs, but they do.
And the reasons why yououtlined in the book.
You talk about four quests.
What are those reasons whypeople leave?
Speaker 4 (21:47):
First, as a sort of prelude, we found 30 forces that
are pushing and pulling peopleto say, today's the day I might
want to switch, and when certaincombinations of them come
together, they overwhelm theanxieties and the habits that
are sort of holding us in place.
And so the four quests forprogress are essentially looking
at the clusters, or closest toeach other, if you will.
(22:09):
That comprise a quest, or whatBob earlier would have called
the job to be done.
And so the first one we saw iswhat we call get out.
So these are people I don'tlike the way I'm being managed.
This is a job to nowhere.
The company's going nowhere,fast stuff like that.
It's a lot of push right andthey're like I got to get out
and fast.
(22:29):
On the flip side of that,there's what we call the take
the next steppers, if you will,and these are people like hey,
career, personal, whatever lifemilestones hitting, I'm ready to
take that next step in mycareer.
It feels almost like thelogical next thing I would do.
This is the closest to thecareer ladder, although it's not
synonymous with it, and sort ofit feels like I'm going to
(22:49):
build on what gives me energy.
I'm going to build on mycurrent capabilities and let's
keep on margin.
Those are sort of the two poles, if you will.
And then we have folks that sayI want to regain alignment.
And so these are people who sayI actually like how I'm
energized at the moment, but Idon't like what they're asking
(23:10):
me in terms of my capabilitiesto do, or I feel fundamentally
disrespected on the what I do,and so these are people that I
want to regain alignment interms of the skills assets that
I get to use on the job.
And then, on the other side ofit is the regain control folks,
and they're basically saying Iactually, in this case, like
what I get to do, but I don'tlike how it engages my energy or
(23:33):
my time and things like that.
I feel fundamentally out ofwhack.
This might be the work-lifebalance folks, as an example.
This might be people that sayI'm being micromanaged.
This might be people saying God, they're telling me I have to
come into the office five days aweek when I know I do the job
well, when I get to work twodays at home, what the heck's
going on here?
So these are the folks that arelooking to regain control.
(23:56):
And basically these are fourquests.
They're not absolute.
As you probably saw when youtake the quiz.
It gives you sort of a mostlikely fit score for each of
them, but it helps youunderstand what's progress for
me right now.
And I'll give you a classicexample.
If you're like regain controland you're just going to march
(24:16):
up the totem pole and take thenext logical job right on the
mythical career ladder in yourcurrent employer, that's
probably going to be afundamental mismatch for the
things that you're actuallylooking for, and so you really
want to understand what'sdriving me, what's causing me to
say today's the day and thenstart to use that as a sorting
mechanism.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah, the assessment is really powerful and I
consider myself someone that issavvy when it comes to my career
or even knowing myself.
I feel like I try to be veryintrospective and I will tell
you, when I read the book, Irealized that I haven't been as
introspective as I could havethroughout my career.
I was just like go to whateverwas paying more or the next step
(24:59):
up.
It was one of those two things.
That's how I made my choices,even though it wasn't
necessarily the work I liked todo, or even putting myself in a
healthier situation.
And I'm wondering, flippingthis from, like, an employer
perspective, why shouldemployers care about the four
quests?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
The reason is twofold is like, at some point the
current employees are going towant to make progress and if you
don't have opportunities thatactually match the quests of
where they want to go, thereality is that they're going to
have to go somewhere else, andso that's the first aspect here
is that when we talk abouttrying to have company loyalty,
it really is.
It's not company loyalty likebrand loyalty.
(25:39):
This is literally like I'mwilling to stay because you're
actually looking out for me.
Most people, they end up havingto take a job because there's a
vacancy in the job and the factis it's not part of their
career path, and they end uphaving to slot in because, oh,
we have this opportunity for you, but it's not with any respect
to who they are necessarily orwhat they want to do.
(26:02):
It's so we can actually keep thebusiness going.
So I think part of that is one.
I think the second part is thatto realize these quests, you
can actually recruit completelydifferently.
Go find people who are actuallywanting to get out, Because at
some point in time right now,when we put a job out there,
we're only looking for thepeople who've already raised
their hand.
But I know that he's got thesepushes I can attract and say,
hey, don't want to bemicromanaged anymore, Want to
actually have a place where youcan do these kinds of things.
(26:23):
Come, come, talk to us.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
My favorite recent example of a recruiter doing
this really well was on LinkedInthis week where, in response to
Zuckerberg's recent interviewwith Joe Rogan, an interview
called out hey, if you don'twant to work for a guy like that
in an aggressive environment,come work for us, and it was
flooded with comments.
So I just think it'sinteresting for companies.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
you know they'll win if they get ahead of it, and
that's the thing is.
But I think the employers haveto realize they have to talk
about.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
What's the work you want me to do Is it the work you
want them to do and is it alsokind of tapping into that
emotional need around, what theyneed to see in the quest, for
example?
You mentioned like if you don'twant to be micromanaged, but is
it tapping into that questlanguage?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yes, and it's using that language we talk about.
There's things that push you toleave and there's things that
pull you to the new job, andit's ultimately the trade-offs
you make that actually make ithappen.
For example, who's thinkingabout leaving?
We talked to people who reallyleft their job and went
somewhere else, and so there's abig difference between wanting
to do it and doing it, and soultimately, there's a certain
amount of energy that has to bepart of it, and we have to
(27:30):
understand both sides of that.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
I think it's a really cool hack also right If you're
a marketer or if you're tryingto attract and understanding who
you're trying to attract thepushes and pulls that cause
people to leave.
This is ultimately like theirlanguage, lived experience.
This is like actually what'shappening to them.
It's not invented from what wewould call the supply side.
(27:53):
The company is imagining whysomeone might want to come to
them.
Companies imagining why someonemight want to come to them.
This is the real energy thatcauses someone to say today's
the day and you get to use thatto get the people that are right
for your role.
And, by the way, you get tocontinue to use that information
on the day-to-day.
Because here's the third thing Iwould say we know that roughly
two-thirds, depending on thesurvey of workers are completely
(28:16):
disengaged.
Call it quietly quittingwhatever you want to do from
their current role.
That's not an employee I wantto be hiring on my team.
That's not someone I want.
I want someone who's engaged,hard charging, doing a great job
.
So how do I make sure Iunderstand the forces acting on
them right now so I can betterengage the people that I
(28:38):
actually want to keep on my team?
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I work mostly in the startup world and so I have some
people have taken this andthey've taken the pushes, which
are, you know, do you feelmicromanaged?
Are you pushed across yourbillies?
Are you bored?
Do you not know where to gonext?
Like there's a list of 13 kindof things that have to happen,
and if any four of them happen,that's when you start to get
activated.
But they're using that as partof the sit down and the
(29:00):
quarterly review to say are anyof these things happening?
If they are, let's talk aboutthem, because if there's no push
, there's no way they're goingto start thinking about anything
else, and so part of it is torealize that the pushes are the
things that actually create thespace in the brain for you to
kind of go like all right, I gotto look somewhere else.
So there's these little things,but those little things then
accumulate into two things, andthen three things, and then four
(29:21):
things is where you go allright, it's time for me to look.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, I think, organizationally doing those
kinds of audits as a team oreven as an org I'm thinking for
my own work and doing likeculture strategy looking at
those things and seeing is thistrue in our organization, is
this the type of culture we have?
And then we can get into themarketing exercise of saying, if
you want this, this is whereyou can come in terms of us.
So that's awesome.
(29:44):
I want to go back to theemployee side, because in the
book you also talk about thingslike progress versus progression
and I'm curious if you can talkthrough that.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
So progression is that career ladder, the supply
side right, we have our orgcharts.
Career ladder, the supply sideright, we have our org charts.
You come in as an entry-levelworker, probably an individual
contributor.
We imagine that you start tomove up, you become manager,
director, right, on and on andon, and it's sort of that
climbing of the career ladder,the next step.
We just keep on thisprogression.
It's the thing that drives.
(30:12):
Frankly, mel, like your friendwho's like I had to be making
this amount of money right,because that's progression,
whereas progress is all thethings we've been talking around
, these quests and what isdriving your energy and getting
more of that in the next role,in the current context you're in
, and so forth, and those thingssometimes line up Progression
(30:33):
as an organization or employerwould think about it and
progress as an individual.
But our research suggests thatat least 75% of the time they're
not lining up that there'sactually divergence between the
two.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
That's huge.
I think the other part, though,is that as you start to think
about it is when you get toprogress.
Most people feel like they havetwo lives.
I have a work life and I have ahome life.
The reality is we have one life, we don't have two and two
lives I have a work life and Ihave a home life.
The reality is we have one life, we don't have two, and the
fact is is we have to learn howto merge the two, and the reason
why somebody might be great forthe position but something
happens at home, got to takecare of the parents, have babies
(31:07):
, whatever it is, the fact is,life changes and then, all of a
sudden, what you want to makeprogress on before is very
different than now, and nobodytakes into account that we have
one life and we have a wholebunch of things we have to move
and, ultimately, how do we makeof these spheres as very
separate you?
Speaker 4 (31:21):
jumped on your career track.
You stayed there and that wasit, and then you had your life
and that was going on.
(31:41):
I don't think that was everreally true to Bob's point.
But now individuals are livingincreasingly in a way that shows
just how much of a lie that isand how interdependent our
careers and the rest of ourlives are.
And it's one of the reasons Bobwill tell someone when he's
coaching them he's like look,you don't have to get it all in
(32:02):
the job.
You can have a side hustle andthen you can volunteer here and
then make sure you're doing thisthere and together you get the
things that are most importantto you.
But you look holistically andorganizations need to sort of
recognize that that's true fortheir employees.
They can put their head in thesand and pretend it's not, but
that doesn't mean theindividuals aren't going to live
their lives that way.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
This might be an obvious question, but why don't
you think people have done thistype of introspection before,
like why it's hard, it's hard,it's hard.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
I mean, one of the things is we wrote the book, we
have nine steps, like, and ifyou do all nine steps, you're
gonna be like amazing, but thereality is not everybody's gonna
do every step and but there arethere's three or four of these
steps are really reallyessential.
For example, energy drivers andenergy drains.
You need to start to payattention to where are those
moments where you walk into asituation and you get energy.
(32:53):
That's a thing you need toactually pay attention to, and
the fact is is most people don'tpay attention to that, or they
know it but they don't accountfor it and they don't actually
think about, like, what is itabout this situation that gives
me energy?
Is it the people?
Is it the topic?
Is it the pressure?
There's variables in thatsituation that does that, and so
it's making people way moremindful about where do they get
(33:14):
their energy from and where doestheir energy go when it gets
sucked out.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
I, yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
The biggest question we oftenget when we show the pushes and
pulls to audiences, they say,like money's not on that list or
like the surface level thing,and I think the thing is like
we've been telling ourselves astory.
Bob would call it at the pablumlevel, I would call it.
You know, we're not yet atcausality right, and so what I
(33:42):
think this book and the researchfrankly does is we drill down
into real root causes and thenwe gave language to that
causality.
That hopefully makes it I don'twant to say it's easy, it's not
, but easier so that more peoplecan start to identify what
really is driving me at thispoint in time.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I know we can't cover the full nine-step journey and
I think folks absolutely need toread your books, but one of the
pieces of the journey thatstood out to me was the
experiences, not features.
Part of that.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean features.
Right are the things like themoney, the vacation, the title,
all those sort of surface levelor problem level that we were
talking about before.
Experiences are what do Iactually do on a day-to-day
basis in the role the doingright and, as Bob would push us,
what will you do as opposed towhat have you done, and what is
(34:56):
this going to look like and howis it going to integrate with
the rest of your life on aday-to-day basis?
The analogy we use in the bookis thinking about real estate
listings where they tout lots offeatures natural light, granite
countertops, bob's built homesso he can talk more about this
and the reality is they allstart to blend into each other
(35:16):
and it's not until you actuallythink about how am I actually
going to live in this space,what are the experiences that I
want, that then featuresactually start to take on
meaning around.
How will it or won't it workwith my life?
Right, in my case, any house Ilive in.
I need a quiet space where Ican do my work, where the kids
are not going to interfere andrun around as they come home
(35:39):
from school and the like.
That all of a sudden givesdefinition to what is a good or
bad choice for me, not whetherthere's natural light and
granite countertops in theabstract.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
The reason why I love the house one is you can look
at a listing, but you don't knowwhat it's like to live in that
house until you go there.
And so part of it is thisreality is like where's the
grocery store and who are theneighbors and where's school.
And you start to realize atsome point they tell you all
about the house but you don'teven get a feel for like how to
live in it.
And so it's this notion of,well, we'll get you a virtual
tour.
That's not the thing, man tour.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
That's not the thing, man.
No right.
My mother-in-law right now islooking at downsizing and she
sent us a place that she clearlyhad never been to and I was
like, oh boy, that's a busyintersection, there's no way
that's going to work.
But she had to go.
She went and she emailed me.
She's like, wow, that's a busyintersection, no way that's
going to work.
And I'm like yep.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
There's an airport nearby or a church bell goes off
.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
every Sunday it's like a Burger King on one side
and a McDonald's drive-thru onthe other, and I was like I
already know the answer to thisquestion, but go for it.
But part of it is they have toexperience it?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
No, the experience is important.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Right and her imagining oh wow, what's my
day-to-day going to look like?
Against that, there's nothingthat replaces that.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, got to do your homework, got to do your
homework.
I want to flip over to wherework is going, because I mean
I'm excited to be alive rightnow, but there's just a ton of
shit happening eitherpolitically with AI, yada, yada.
Where do you see work going inthe next two to five years,
especially as it relates to jobmovement?
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Look, obviously the velocity is high right now and
the anxiety around it, I think,is higher.
I think the reality is AI atthe moment is more of an
efficiency innovation.
It's sort of automating andallowing us to do what we
already did a little bit better.
I think the evidence issuggesting it actually helps
those who are lowest performersbe better.
I do think the reality is it'staking out a lot of entry-level
(37:34):
work right away, a lot ofemployers, the jobs that they
had open as entry-level roles.
They're taking them off thetable, and so that's, I think,
where it's maybe making thebiggest immediate impact because
they can imagine how AI allowsthat next person on the rung to
quickly use that tool to do itand then actually become more
productive.
For people starting theircareers or switching industries
(37:57):
or whatnot, getting experienceswhen you're out of before the
job market, in schooling,internships, entrepreneurially,
side hustles, whatever it is isgoing to become more and more
important to show you know whatto do and you can actually do
the work.
I think the bigger termtransformations that people love
to sort of dream and speculateabout.
(38:19):
My own belief is that that'snot going to come until new
business models andorganizations are built around
these technologies sort oforganically and it goes to how
every technology has made itsbiggest impact, whether it's
electricity, where peoplerealize, oh, we can distribute,
we don't have to put everythingaround the watermill anymore and
things like that, and we can dofactories differently, or I
(38:42):
mean even frankly, digitaladvertising, when it's sort of a
P&G brand that wants everyoneto come in the store because of
the way they've thought aboutconsumer packaged goods, versus
a startup that's thinking muchmore targeted, performance-based
advertising.
Technologies, I think, are mosttransformational when business
models are actually built aroundthem as an enabler, as opposed
(39:03):
to trying to cram it into theexisting models.
I think we're a few years awayfrom that still.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Yeah, we're just starting to see people think
about AI-first organizations.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, I look back to history on this.
When I was early in theworkforce, I worked at Ford and
they had something called thetyping pool.
This was just a bunch of peoplewho wrote, who typed, and they
had carbon paper the whole.
You guys have no idea that thisexisted, but the big thing was
like, what is word processinggoing to do to the typing pool?
And you started to realize thatit's somebody.
(39:32):
Everybody was against itbecause the typing pool is going
to go away.
Where are they going to work?
Well, it turns out those peoplecould actually write copy and
they could do all these otherthings and do much higher level
things.
And so, channeling Clay here,clay would say what we want to
do is have people work at thetop of their profession, and the
work that sucks is the workthat we want AI to be doing for
us.
The thing is, we will stillthink more than AI, but AI can
(39:56):
actually provide us the input toactually help us think better.
I think that what's going tohappen is it's going to force
people to be kind of again.
You know, my children ask mewhen they're like, what's going
to happen to all the cab driverswhen we have self-driving cars,
they're going to figure outsomething else to do.
They don't get to retire andthey don't get to move out of
that thing and they'll always besomebody who wants to actually
(40:16):
have a human in the cab.
But the reality is it's changingthe market and basically being
able to say but how do we gethumans as a whole to basically
step up to the next level?
Because we got some technologythat can take care of things at
the lowest level that we don'tneed to worry about.
I'm very bullish on where it'sgoing to go.
The question is do peoplereally want to work differently
(40:37):
and think better and harder?
Speaker 3 (40:39):
I think that's the thing, because it's like, when
you think about, we can do thishigher level thinking, this
higher work as well, that doestake work, because it's breaking
out of what we've been doing Imean, we're talking about
knowing thyself in this wholeconversation and then it's like
how do you get to that higherlevel?
But I think we'll get there.
We have gotten there before,we'll get there, it's just the
next.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
And there'll be dislocation right as we go
through it, like there's goingto be a whole bunch of people in
the moment that it's stressfuland they're going to have to
work through it and we'll figureit out.
But I think over time Bob'sright, that's the direction it
goes and the pathway at themoment, frankly, is those people
who help people make progresson that journey.
They're going to becomeemployers of choice as well, in
(41:20):
my mind.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Anything you would recommendemployees do now.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
I think having a clear sense of your strengths
but maybe equally what you'renot strong at and you don't want
to do and what you are going tochoose to sort of say I'm going
to suck at, so that you knowwhat to build on and you know
what to let others do, or let AIdo for you, or whatever it
might be, I think is a reallyimportant step.
And then the second one comesfrom the book.
(41:48):
It's this career balance sheetidea.
This is where I think this ideais powerful is understanding
the useful life of your currentassets and where and how am I
going to have to invest to makethem still relevant in the
future and have some sense of?
Are those trade-offs that Iwant to make in terms of my time
and money to keep those thingscurrent, or are there other
things I want to invest in?
Speaker 1 (42:07):
The thing to me, is the energy drivers and energy
drains.
Like the fact is is just beingable to know what are the things
that have to come together toenable you to have energy is
when I'm coaching people.
What I'm doing is I'm like Iwant you to go through the next
week and just start to writedown when it happens because I
don't think people are actuallyaware of it and then start to
(42:28):
then parameterize it tounderstand, like what's going on
Well, oh, I get to learn a lotof new things, okay, or, or it's
I get to organize things.
Like my wife is in finance andthe thing is my wife loves to
balance.
Like when it balances, it'slike I hit a serotonin.
Like, oh, my god, I just likethat balance is perfect.
I'm like, yeah, I I get nothingfrom that, but she gets a lot of
it's knowing where it comesfrom, but then all the
(42:51):
conversely, knowing when theenergy gets pulled out of you,
because a lot of times you're socaught up emotionally that like
it's almost like you need tostep back from yourself and look
at the situation and go likewhy is this basically draining
all my energy?
What's going on here?
And it's like it's people, it's, it's situations, it's time of
day, it's like a whole bunch ofthings and start to see those
(43:11):
patterns.
I it's like a whole bunch ofthings and start to see those
patterns.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
I think that's, to me , the biggest advice I'd give
people and, by the way, I don'twant this to be said the wrong
way, but I think it's actuallythe easiest step you can reflect
on in the book in many ways,because, as Bob said, it's not
something that I have to lockmyself into a closet and think
three hours.
It's literally I'm living life.
When am I in flow?
When did that suck?
(43:34):
Okay, start to notice thepatterns, start to interrogate
it.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Right, just keep a sticky right and start noticing
and unpacking them.
I did it on my cell phone.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
It's kind of like keeping a food diary it's not,
and it's just you know, you justget it in the habit.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
It's an excellent exercise.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
And the cool thing is , you don't have to then figure
out how big was that portion andhow do I measure it, because
that's the part about the fooddiary I could never figure out.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
We like to do rapid round because we want to know
you as human beings, aside fromjust your work and your book.
Does that sound okay?
Speaker 4 (44:13):
Yep, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
All right.
What music are you listening toright now?
Speaker 4 (44:17):
I'm eclectic on music tastes.
I've been really into theMerrily we Roll Along soundtrack
, though the last week and ahalf I have not been able to get
it out of my head.
We saw it on Broadway a fewmonths ago at this point, I
guess, and it all of a suddencame back into my
subconsciousness.
So I've been really enjoyingthat.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
So I'm listening to mostly I don't know the kind of
music, but it's basically BobbyAlua and Matt Duncan.
It's a little bit of reggae, alittle bit of beach vibe, a
little bit of background beat,but it's just.
It's one of those things where,because I'm ADHD, like I like
to have the same music play overand over and over again, and so
it's one of those things I'mdeep down into that one where
(44:59):
it's like I've probably listenedto the same playlist now 50
times.
So that's where I'm at Nothingwrong with that.
It just it just makes itlighter.
It's a, it's light and airy.
That's all I can tell you.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
And does it make you feel warm, even though it's five
?
Speaker 1 (45:14):
degrees it reminds me of going to Mexico is what it
does and it's like okay, here wego.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, love it.
Okay, what are you readingright now?
Speaker 4 (45:24):
I'm currently reading a draft of my father's book
that he thinks he's writing forpublication.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
He thinks Well based on what I'm reading, so you're
getting the feedback before.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I'm giving it to him, so maybe I should just leave it
there.
Does he know our podcast?
Probably not.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
He's got some more work to do.
If he thinks it's ready forprimetime, okay.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
How about you, Bob?
So for me I'm listening to.
I have a couple of books I waslistening to.
One is called Radical Humility.
It's very interesting.
I would say I learned myhumility from the best, who was
Clay Christensen, but ultimatelyI didn't understand kind of
like the components of how itworks and what it is and the
reality is.
It's very interesting to kindof see how this person has
(46:09):
basically broken it down andfigured it out.
The other book I'm reading isFingerprints of the Gods.
I'm very deep into basicallyelectromagnetic waves and
basically geometry and how thetwo work together, and so it's
just this notion of a lot ofthings in ancient history.
Take into account this notionof geometry and frequencies and
just I don't know why I'm downthere, but it's very fun, Very
(46:31):
fun for me.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
You know, in Chichen Itza, where if you clap it makes
the sound of the bird in Mexico.
Is that related to this?
Speaker 1 (46:39):
book.
The notion is that frequency,like everything, has a frequency
and everything actuallygenerates a frequency.
And when you start to seenatural harmonics happen, it's
kind of when you get thosemoments where you get energy.
It's related back to energydrivers and drains.
But it really is this notion oflike, where does that emotion
come from and how do youactually get it?
And it comes from, I believe,electromagnetic waves and
(47:01):
basically geometry.
So it's very deep, very deepdown the rabbit hole.
Sorry, no, don't apologize.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
I have a million more questions, but yeah, who do you
both really admire?
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Am I allowed to say Bob?
I feel like Bob is someone whohas superpowers, who sees around
corners before things happenbecause of his superpowers and
knew we would be friends andcolleagues and get to
collaborate with each other Wellbefore I understood this fact.
And the reality is it's likeit's come together because he
(47:33):
understands causality in a waythat I'm constantly aspiring and
learning from.
So I'll say you, bob, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to say you,
no, I have a feeling I know whoyou're going to say yeah, I have
to say my wife.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
I most admire my wife .
So I'm a neurodivergent person.
I've had three close head braininjuries.
I can't read, I can't write.
I've done seven startups, I'veworked on 3,500 products.
I've had four children in fiveyears, but my wife is the one
who holds it all together.
And that is just one of thosethings where I'm working on a
(48:06):
book now around relationshipsand finding your life partner.
And one of the things yourealize is I thought when I got
married I could not possiblylove my wife anymore and I
realized it was actually thelowest point of how much I love
my wife.
And it's just grown so muchthat we've been married to 35
years and it's just one of thosethings where we've been able to
kind of just move.
And it's one of those thingswhere who are opposites don't
(48:31):
get along well or there'sthere's always friction, but we
know how to actually dancetogether very well and so it's
it's it's just, it's just a joyto spend time with her and be
with her oh someone cuttingonions in here.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, I'm like, oh shit, I'm getting teared up I
knew he was gonna pull at theheartstrings all right last
question what's one piece ofadvice you want everyone to know
, and it can be related to thebook or just something personal
that you want to share?
Speaker 1 (49:04):
I will tell you that I think that people should be
much more cognizant, explicit,intentional about the progress
they're trying to make in theirlife.
Every time you buy something,every time you change something,
it always has an intention, andthe more you can actually
become intentional about it,that one is the less change
you'll make and the moremeaningful changes you'll make.
(49:25):
And so this is just one examplein your career.
But like finding your lifepartner, buying a new pair of
socks, Like I know it soundscrazy, but the fact is is all of
them have that same thing oflike.
Do I really need a new pair ofsocks?
And why do I need a new pair ofsocks?
And how are these socks betterthan the socks I had before?
And so being intentional aboutthe changes in the purchases you
(49:45):
make is probably one of themost satisfying things you can
do, because it allows you toactually be explicit about the
progress you make and takecontrol of your life.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
Far be it for me to try to build on that, because
I've tried to take this into myown life, as Bob knows, with
every decision I make.
Now I'll say something totallydifferent, which is a motto that
I always live by, which is akuna matata from Lion King.
But no worries, I think weoverstress and have a lot of
anxiety that are about thingsthat we can't control, and we
(50:17):
should focus much more on thethings that we can and worry
less about the details and keepthe big picture in mind.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I love it.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us
myself, mel Plett and FrancescaRanieri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you loved this conversation
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
(50:48):
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagram, so please join us inthe socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(51:08):
Take care, friends.
Bye friends.
Bye friends.
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