June 11, 2025 • 41 mins
The truth about creating workplace culture that actually drives results (not just good vibes)
We sat down with Joan Burke, legendary CHRO and board member and founder of the CPO Forum, who built the iconic "work of your life" culture at DocuSign, Marketo, and Responsys. This conversation reveals exactly how to create cultures where people do their best work - and why it's MORE critical now than ever.
Joan doesn't just talk theory. She gives you the actual playbook for building workplace cultures that survive economic downturns, retain top talent, and drive real business results.
Here's what we're diving into:
⏰ 8:15 Why "work of your life" became DocuSign's secret weapon for talent retention
⏰ 15:30 The business case for investing in people during tough economic times
⏰ 22:45 How to operationalize culture (it's not just posters on walls) ⏰ 28:20 Why 75% of your development budget should go to managers, not individual contributors
⏰ 35:10 The pandemic stress test: How great cultures actually get stronger during crisis
⏰ 48:15 Building your "work of your life" when your company doesn't prioritize culture
🔥 REAL TALK YOU CAN USE TODAY:
- The exact questions to ask in interviews to spot authentic vs. fake culture
- How to build networks and find your tribe when you're stuck in a bad situation
- CEO buy-in tactics that actually work (with specific scripts)
People-first cultures outperform, especially when times get tough. Here's the playbook to get there.
About Joan Burke:
Joan is Board Member and Advisor, Former Chief People Officer at DocuSign, Marketo, Responsys who ran business while creating environments where people could do the work of their lives. She is now lifting up the next generation of CPOs and CHROs as the co-founder of The CPO Forum.
#WorkplaceCulture #Leadership #HR #TalentRetention #EmployeeEngagement #CHRO #ManagementDevelopment #CompanyCulture #WorkplaceStrategy #PeopleFirst #EmployeeExperience #OrganizationalDevelopment #TalentStrategy #WorkLifeBalance #CareerDevelopment #PodcastInterview #YourWorkFriends
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So if you really care about the success of your
organization, if you care aboutrevenue, then you got to care
about the people who are leadingthe organization and your
talent.
It is a no-brainer.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to your Work.
Friends.
I'm Francesca and I'm Mel, andwe're breaking down work so you
get ahead.
For those of you that don'tknow, every year, mel and I sit
down and think about what arethe topics that we want to talk
about, and then we think aboutthe guests we want, and we're
always looking for people thatare actively in it.
They're either a really deepsubject matter expert, they're
(00:44):
on the line in the seat doingthe role and they're really able
to think about how you get someof this stuff done.
So we can always make workbetter, and one of the things
that we were always wonderingabout are how do you create
these cultures where people feellike they can really do their
best work?
And that brought us to JoanBurke.
Joan, if you don't know, her isjust a real deal CHRO.
(01:07):
She is now a board member,she's an advisor.
She's been a chief peopleofficer at places like DocuSign,
marketo Responses.
She's been a CHRO at smallcompanies, major companies, in
multiple different industries.
She's been there, she's donethat and she's been able to
create these cultures wherepeople can do the work of their
lives, and we wanted to talk toher about how she did that.
(01:30):
What did you think of thisconversation, mel?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I loved it because as an HR person lifelong HR person
like Joan I really appreciatethe hard line that she took in
every interview, which was she'shuman-centered and it's human
first and if that doesn't alignthen it's not the right fit for
her.
And because of that alignmentshe's been able to go in and
build these beautiful workplaces.
(01:54):
I'm just really inspired by thelegacy she leaves behind and
the message it leaves for others.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It takes a whole village to create a culture
where people feel like they cando the work of their lives.
Joan gives you the playbook forhow she did this, what needed
to be in play at DocuSign, atResponsys.
She's.
Also gave us some tips Ifyou're not in these types of
companies, what you can doyourselves to create the work of
your life and if you'reinterviewing, what you can look
(02:20):
for and some questions you canask to see if a company is going
to enable you to do the work ofyour life.
This conversation, to me, wasjust fantastic.
Joan's the real deal, and withthat, here's Joan.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
At DocuSign, you really created something super
special, right?
It was a culture where thatemployee experience enabled a
lot of folks to, as you call it,do the work of their lives.
In today's environment, thingsare changing.
How do you make the businesscase to do that today?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So the business case is the same as the business case
was when we did it in DocuSign.
I joined them in 2017.
Even though it's an employer'smarket, the best talent always
has options.
You should never walk away fromthat or feel as though I have
to prioritize revenue.
I have to prioritize this and Idon't have time or this isn't
important.
(03:22):
It is as important now as itwas when we were doing it.
Now, when we were doing it hypercompetitive, the market was
crazy.
Everybody's trying to get goodtalent.
Now.
I would say it's important todo that because you need to keep
your good talent.
The pendulum will swing.
It will go from being anemployer's market to being an
(03:42):
employee's market at some pointin time, and the companies that
invest in their people now, whenthat happens, they're not going
to see them walking out thedoor.
They're going to have anincrease in retention and I
think it's a false narrative tosay it's an either or.
If you're going to prioritize abusiness, you're going to
prioritize people.
So it's absolutely as importantnow as it was seven years ago,
(04:03):
when the market was verydifferent than it is today.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Francesca and I often say people fuel your business.
So absolutely Both are so superimportant right Well, at the
end of the day, if you thinkabout it, revenue happens
because you've got great talent.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
These things do not happen on their own.
It always is people that areresponsible for that success in
organizations, always.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Oh, and they're the base of the business.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, so you have a very good point.
I think the thing that won'tchange is that people want to be
able to do work and do the goodwork and to do the work of
their lives.
I don't think that's going tochange.
I really don't that intrinsicneed want desire.
At DocuSign.
That was what you were reallystriving for people to have is
(04:47):
had some great partnerships inthe leadership team there.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Certainly Dan Springer, the CEO, scott Ulrich,
who was initially the CMO,became the COO.
These are people who totallygot it and we thought really
long and hard about how do wedifferentiate DocuSign and so
candidate is going to be lookingat a number of different
companies.
What is going to make them wantto come to DocuSign?
If a candidate is going to belooking at a number of different
companies, what is going tomake them want to come to
DocuSign versus go to Adobe, goto Google?
(05:28):
How do we make sure, also, thatthe values that we stood for
authentically DocuSign and notones that you could go to any
website and pick up the wordsand they're fine, but there's
nothing special about it?
This is where the working lifecame in.
This is what we said.
People, as you just said,francesca, people want to do
(05:49):
great work.
Employees do not come to workto do a crappy job.
They don't.
They don't come to work to do aboring job.
They come to work because theywant to succeed, they want to
contribute and they want to do agreat job.
So we thought, looking back,when people view their career,
what we hoped is that peoplewould say donkey, sign.
(06:10):
That's where I did the work ofmy life.
This was a marketing thing,because Scott is a great
marketer.
We intentionally didn't say thebest work of your life, because
you don't need best.
It's like the work of your life.
That vacation I had the time ofmy life, so we had to
operationalize it.
We had to bring it to life andwe talked about it as being
actually really important and,in many ways, a personal
(06:32):
statement.
I, joe, wouldn't know what oneof my employees' work of their
life was until I spent time withthem and we understood how we
were going to help that personget there and what were the
opportunities, what was thedevelopment?
And then, when it came time todo our low engagement surveys,
one of the questions we alwaysask is are you doing the work of
your life?
If you're not doing the work ofyour life, what do you need
(06:54):
from the company?
What do you need from yourmanager to do the work of your
life?
We put it into self-evaluations.
We put it into feedback.
It was an employment brand forus.
Your recruiters are going to goto job fairs, they're going to
have a booth, they're going tohave a banner.
It might as well be somethingcool that makes some sense, and
it did.
Our recruiters would say peoplewould go by and say, whoa, work
(07:16):
your Life, what's that allabout?
There were a lot of componentsto the work of your life.
We also invested very heavilyin our managers in terms of
developing and training them.
We had a work your lifemanagement program that was
based on four pillars.
That were pillars that webelieve were unique to DocuSign,
that we want to help be ourmanagers.
So it was very real and I'llgive you an example.
(07:38):
I was on LinkedIn the other dayand there's a woman who I hired
, probably about six monthsbefore I left DocuSign day, and
there's a woman who I hiredprobably about six months before
I left DocuSign.
She just left now.
So we're talking three yearsago.
She was talking about goinginto the organization, but when
she was talking about DocuSign,she said I did the work of my
life.
So I thought, wow, it stuck.
It stuck, at least for peoplewho were there.
(07:59):
I think when we created thatprogram, the work your life
starts up.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
That, to me, is a real test.
It's one of the real tests ofhow do you have a brand that you
know sticks, and one is justpeople using the language, which
is huge.
And what I love about the workyou did, whenever I think about
a brand and thinking about ifyou're going to say we want you
to be able to do the work ofyour life no-transcript DocuSign
(08:56):
stood for, which is anenvironment and the climate.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And we say DocuSign helps people, it saves paper,
paper saves trees.
So we're all about DocuSign forforests.
And I would talk to candidatesand I could see the excitement,
enthusiasm when I would say letme tell you what we're about,
let me tell you about this workyou're doing, let me tell you
how much we care about theenvironment in the world.
There were a lot of reallygreat components of the DocuSign
(09:22):
culture that kind of cametogether in a way that I think
made people feel really goodabout the organization.
And one of the things you mightask is how did you know that it
really delivered results forthe company?
And I think it's hard to takeup one program and say, okay, I
could connect the dots and thisis the exact revenue we got from
this because of that.
But I can tell you that everytime we did anything around this
(09:45):
, anytime we talked about thework-year life and when we would
fortunately for us get greatreviews from our employees on
Glassdoor, we saw an incrediblespike in the number of resumes
that were coming in.
People want to work for acompany that they feel good
about.
Dan Springer is the CEO.
His approval rating onGlassdoor was 98.
(10:07):
We were always in like the top15 companies in technology.
That's how we can say it made adifference because our
employees cared about writinggreat reviews, and those are the
only reviews we cared about.
Docusend was not a pay-to-playcompany.
We were not going to ever beinformed.
We were never going to pay tobe part of some sort of a best
place to work.
That's what we felt the realvalue was.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
That's what our employees really said.
Yeah, out of curiosity, theday-to-day feel like the vibe.
I am very much on vibes lately,joan, when you think about the
vibe at Dacusign when the workof your life was hitting on all
pistons After launch.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
It's embedded in the DNA.
What did it feel like, just asa leader and an employee?
Once they got it and that was amore from an employee
communication perspective wewould do mid-year feedback
sessions.
So it wasn't about evaluations,it was just feedback, and they
were having conversations withtheir managers and we would
really target those disingenuousabout work your life, figure
out whether this is working forpeople.
So there was some excitement,enthusiasm.
We went into a pandemic and theworld changed overnight in
(11:16):
March of 2020.
Now, I would say, because wehad built such a foundation with
our employees about caringabout them, about their
development, about work yourlife, we were able to carry that
through during the pandemic.
For any sheep people officer, Iwill tell you that in that
47-year career I had the hardestwork I ever did was running a
(11:40):
people organization during thepandemic.
Yeah, trying to figure out howdo we best support our employees
through their mental health,through daycare.
Hiring managers get comfortablearound hiring people over Zoom,
where they're like I neverhired somebody I didn't meet in
person.
You better do it becausesomebody else is going to hire
them.
So I think we took the samelevel of care during that period
(12:03):
.
It looked a little different.
It was around support.
There was a lot of differentthings we did to help our
employees be successful and itpaid off, I would say, in states
.
So the work shifted a bit and Iused to say the companies that
are win when this pandemic isover are the companies where the
employees feel really good andfelt very taken care of during
(12:27):
that period.
And DocuSign did it.
And the reason why DocuSign didit it was a leadership team
that actually believed that thiswas ultimately what's good for
the employees.
It's going to be good for thecompany.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, it sounds like, even in, I would say, a crisis
situation, which COVID,especially in HR it was.
I'm just going to say bonkers,absolutely bonkers.
Right, but I love the fact thatlens to enable people to do the
work of your life, to trulycare for people.
It sounds like you're makingdecisions through that lens.
It didn't change just becausewe were going through a very
(12:59):
traumatic time.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
You feel like you turned the volume up on that
care during that time turned itup and we saw the feedback that
we got in our employeeengagement surveys, which we did
at least two a year or more.
The last survey that we did, wegot 6,000 comments in that
survey 6,000 comments and Danand I would read every single
(13:24):
one of those comments.
He'd read them.
I was going to read them.
There was no way I was notgoing to be a patient animal
reading those comments.
But they actually produce somuch more richness than really
just the raw data and we heardpeople talk about how well they
felt supported by their manager,and not just from a corporate
perspective, and not just theprograms and the benefits that
(13:45):
we put in place, which were allnew.
During that period we were ableto really pressure test that the
work we were doing and thedecisions we were making and the
investments we were making inagain these benefits and trying
to make it easy for people totake care of their kids and work
from home and have Zoom andparents who were ill, and it was
(14:08):
thank you, Francesca.
It was a bonkers period,there's no other word for it.
And then, if you think about it, we went from that to the great
resignation right which can Isay something that lasted about
15 minutes, Like really that wasdone and now the pendulum has
(14:29):
swollen completely the other way.
So one of the things I wouldsay is think about the time
you're in and what you need todo, but know that things change
and can change very quickly.
You don't abandon all thethings that matter to you, that
are important to yourorganization, just because you
can and you can.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Out of curiosity, how important is it to have your
peer group, the CMO, the CTO,any of the C's your CEO or your
board?
How important is it to havethem on board when you're trying
to make these kind of decisionsand, probably more importantly,
stick to the plan when shit'shitting the fan?
How important is that so?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
well, I critical.
If the only people who areenthused about these programs
that are willing to keep themalive, as the HR team, that's
doomed, it's just never going towork.
But having that consistencywhen the shit hits the fan,
you're still not going to walkaway from your principles and
your values as an organization.
You're still going to invest inemployees, you're still going
to care about the development,you're still going to give them
(15:27):
feedback.
You cannot do that without theleadership involved.
The reason why I think we wereso successful at DocuSign is
because Dan was so authentic inboth belief in these programs
and talked about it.
We did all hands meetings everyquarter and during COVID we did
a lot more of them just to makesure we stayed connected to
people.
He never abandoned the thingsthat were like the pillars of
(16:01):
who we were as an organization.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
You've done this several times over now DocuSign.
You did this at Responsys.
What was the secret sauce?
You have to have the CEO.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
If you don't have the CEO, then it's going to be lips
of risk, because that's whopeople look to, that's their
coming to door, that's wherethey're getting their insight
and their messaging.
And it has to be authentic.
It cannot be lips of riskbecause people see through
falsehoods and I always say themost important leadership is
authentic leadership.
It's be who you are and withall those organizations I've had
(16:34):
really authentic leaders whowould speak to the programs, who
would talk about the importanceof employees in the team and
helping them be successful.
It worked.
But if you don't have that, Iwould say it's running uphill
Everything dies If HR is runningit.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
you have to have that buy-in.
Let's say your CEO is a skeptic.
How do you fight through thatskepticism?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
You kind of build a business case right and the
business case is talent drivessuccess.
It just does.
And even in a bad job market,which we're in right now, the
best talent always has options,always has options, how bad it
is, they always do.
So if you really care about thesuccessful organization, if you
care about revenue, then yougot to care about the people who
(17:18):
are leading the organizationand your talent.
It is a no-brainer in some ways.
And here's what I am excitedabout.
I feel like in manyorganizations and particularly
I'm working with some VCs theyget it, they totally get it, and
where a lot in the past youmight say, oh VCs, I don't want
their portfolio companies tospend a lot of money on
(17:38):
marketing and HR, I'm seeing VCsactually pushing their
portfolio companies and theseare companies of maybe $30 to
$50 million of revenue to hirethat cheap people officer sooner
than a lot of founders areready to do, because founders,
by the most part, they don'twant to spend money.
So I am extremely encouragedabout that.
I'm also seeing a lot ofenthusiasm for people going to
(18:02):
these smaller private companiesand not so much like the big
companies the Googles, the Metasthat people went to.
They're feeling like they'regetting an opportunity to really
be very hands-on, to be part ofa successful organization, to
see where their contribution isactually making a difference on
(18:22):
a daily basis, with lessbureaucracy, maybe less politics
.
So I think that there's a lotof opportunity for people to
seek out these smaller privateorganizations.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I coach a lot of folks who are being impacted by
layoffs right now, so I'm seeingthat trend as well.
Even if they came from thesebig megas, they're looking at
smaller orgs where they canactually feel the impact that
they have.
So that's tracking.
When you think of pushback onbudgets, we hear a lot around.
Budgets are tightening up witheverything that's happening with
AI.
Leadership's very focused onshort-term results.
(18:55):
Someone making the businesscase.
What advice would you give tothem?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I would say that the Work of your Life program at
DocSign it was not a heavyinvestment at all.
These were things we werealready doing.
We're already doing performancereviews.
We were already doing employeeengagement surveys.
We already cared about whatpeople felt on Glassdoor.
We were already going to jobfairs.
It's not true that these thingscost a lot of money.
Get that off the table.
(19:19):
Just say it's bullshit.
Right here there is investment,for sure is when you're
investing in developing peopleand particularly leaders.
So when we created the Workyour Life Management Program,
that was an investment.
We again decided that it wasreally extremely important to us
to have great managers in thecompany.
We needed to put togetherprograms, we needed to design
(19:41):
them, we needed to facilitatethem.
So there were certain placeswhere you may be able to say,
okay, I'm going to cut back alittle bit on this one and maybe
use some different approacheswhere I don't spend quite the
same money, but caring aboutyour corporate culture, being
articulate about your corporateculture and reinforcing your
corporate culture it doesn'tcost money.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Those human components, those day-to-day
interactions.
That's free.
You can change that tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
One of the things that we did at DocuSign is we
had a mentor program andeverybody wanted mentors, right.
So we're like, all right, howare we going to make this,
operationalize this and makethis make sense?
And we realized, when you asksomebody to be your mentor, it's
a big deal right, and it's timethis is going to take.
But one of the things that wedid, which is like a skinny
version of a mentor program, iswe said anybody will go and have
(20:31):
a cup of coffee with you Halfhour Well, great.
So if somebody called me up andsaid, john, I was watching the
all-hands meeting last month, Ithink you did a great job with
the presentation.
I'm really trying to work outskills.
Can we have a cup of coffee inhalf hour and just talk about
that?
It's like absolutely so.
There are ways to just skivvyback certain programs and things
that are less intense or maybenot so time consuming and not so
(20:55):
expensive.
You just gotta be a little bitthoughtful and creative about it
.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
If your budget's tight, what are the three areas?
You'd say?
This is where you double down.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
It's really about helping grow people.
Managers we always cared abouthow we help individual
contributors grow and succeedtoo.
But at the end of the day, if Ihad a dollar of investment, I'm
going to put 75 cents of itagainst managers and 25 cents
against the individualcontributors, because I know
that ultimately the value thatthose individual contributors
are going to get is becausethey've got a better manager who
(21:28):
cares about their development,who cares about their career,
who thinks about not just jobopportunities but actually
assignments that are going tohelp them grow and develop.
And I always say that the mostpowerful thing we can do to help
people grow is put them, givethem on-job assignments to see
how they stretch, see how theygrow.
The investment you make on theindividual contributor side pays
off by really overinvesting,maybe in the managers.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I love to hear it because I was just at a
conference where a room full ofpeople, when we asked how many
people invested in theirmanager's training and
development, maybe 5% of theroom raised their hand, which
was really disheartening to see.
So you heard it here, folks 75cents for your managers.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
It's nuts to me.
I'm going to make a CatholicItalian reference here, but you
can cut this.
So in Italian cooking, a lot ofdishes start with the trinity,
which is the onion, the carrotand the celery.
It is the substance that makeseverything right, it's the base,
mirepoix, if you will.
And I always think the trinityof talent development is
(22:30):
onboarding, manager developmentand coaching.
If you had to pick three andmanager development, you're very
good.
Point, joan, 75 cents of that,right.
The biggest onion little bit ofcarrot, little bit of celery.
The onion is the managerdevelopment.
The data's there, the resultsare there.
You could do absolutely noformal training whatsoever, but
(22:50):
if you had an amazing manager,you're set.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I love that.
I've never heard about theTrinity Battalion cooking.
I'm going to use that.
Seriously, no gosh, God, reallyno.
We grew up Irish.
My mother was Italian.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
There you go, there you go.
We're big fans.
We're big fans.
Let's say you're an employee,you don't have this.
What can somebody do as anindividual contributor, no
matter what their circumstance?
Create the work of their lifefor themselves.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Oh man, that's a tough one.
Yeah, I know they're not in apowerful position to be able to
do that, which many people arenot.
Sometimes I say find itelsewhere, and I'm not saying
leave your job right.
For some people it might beleave your job, but for many
others that's unrealistic.
It just is not the right marketfor people to do that.
(23:39):
But find your tribe right.
Find the people who arelike-minded, who have the same
sets of values.
Find that network where,through connection and through
conversations and throughlearnings about how people are
dealing with those challengesinside their organizations, that
you can take back for yourselfto be able to say I'm not
getting from my company, but Iam getting what I need from this
(24:02):
group of people up there.
One of the things that'sdifficult is developing a
network is hard, it takes a lotof work, but it can be so
rewarding.
I remember during the pandemicI had this network of about 20
chief people officers and we metevery week for like just an
hour and it was the good, badand the ugly advice in terms of
(24:29):
the thing that was working, thethings that weren't working.
It was so important, it was sopowerful that if you don't have
that if you can find a way tocreate that, I'm just, I have
just always thought that couldbe incredibly rewarding to just
have whatever mind appears.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
It's interesting to see what other people are doing
commiserate on the good, bad andugly, because that's every job.
There's always things.
There's something so importantabout being part of a community.
Just like, you're not alone inthis, no matter what stage you
are in your career, becausethere's a lot of human messy
feelings that go along withevery single stage in your
career.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Absolutely.
I could go into depth withDiWalt on this call about those
crappy jobs I had and how hardthey were and the lesson I
learned and how I hoped duringthat period.
And that's like experiences,right.
The other thing I would say isyou can create a network of
people who have similar valuesat you but are at different
(25:23):
stages of their career, so haveseen the work and experienced it
and can look back and say, allright, let me tell you, when I
was in my 30s, the world wasdifferent, but a lot of the
experiences and the challengesthat you have there's definitely
similarities.
So here's how I cultivatepeople for all different
(25:44):
generations and I think you'llfind it very worthwhile.
Best advice.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Curious about.
On the flip of this, whereyou're interviewing for a
company, what are the tells?
What are the tells that saythis is a great culture, this is
a culture that's going tosupport you in doing the work of
your life?
Are there tells people can seefrom the outside?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
There are.
You want to make sure that it'snot just the recruiters who are
telling you that story.
Their job is to serve a certainorganization.
You need to drill down.
So when you're talking to anorganization and hopefully
having a number of differentinterviews with people so you
get a good sense of that companyand some of them would be peers
, some of them would be amanager is that you're paying
(26:22):
very good attention to whatthey're saying and you're
actually teasing out from themwhether or not what you're
hearing from these recruiters ifin fact they're real McCoy.
And then you check out Glassdoor, you check out Blind, you look
at what people are saying insidethe organization to know
whether it's for real or whetherit is just give talk.
(26:42):
So you got to do your ownhomework and it does help, as I
said, if you know your why andyou can actually articulate your
why, to have the people sittingacross from you, from the
company, explain why your why iseither going to work or not
work in this company.
You should put them on the spota little bit in a nice kind of
way.
That's how you tease this out,right.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
What were some of your go-to questions?
To tease it out.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Well, I think the biggest thing would be to say
tell me what people three layersdown this organization are
saying about this company.
Tell me what you're hearingfrom your teams.
And if I was to just go aroundright now and go from desk to
desk and just kind of casuallystop and ask people questions
what is it like to work here?
(27:26):
What would they tell me?
Would they tell it to?
What would they say?
And ask those questions and saywhat are your employee
engagement scores?
What are people saying aboutthe employee experience here?
Have you seen progress or arethings going backwards?
So it's just doing a lot of duediligence and interviewing the
people in the company as much asthey're interviewing you with
(27:53):
you.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
There's what you ask in the interview, but then
there's what really happenedwhen you get there on day one,
your first 90 days in a company.
How do you further tease thisout?
Like, how do you figure out whoare the secret decision makers?
What are the things that aregoing to make it a better
experience?
What are your questions inthose first 90 to help you?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Who are the savvy insiders?
You got to figure them out andsome of that is asking.
Again, it's asking a lot ofpeople, a lot of questions and
owning your own onboarding right.
So it isn't just I'm themanager, here's the playbook,
you have the free people to talkto.
It's like all right.
(28:28):
I got to drill down even more.
I want to speak with these fourpeople over here.
I want to know more aboutwhat's going on in the IT
department, not relying on aroutine onboarding process, but
create something for yourselfthat's robust.
And I would also say, as aninsider from Chief People
Officer perspective, onboardingis so important.
(28:48):
Those first 90 days, thosefirst six months, it's how you
show up, because you want toknow what's going on, but you
want people to know you.
My mother used to say it's notwho you know, it's who knows you
that matters.
And that's really right, mom,that's what I would do.
I would be really thoughtfulabout who I wanted to meet with
(29:09):
and just make it happen.
Just make it happen.
And people don't say no, theyreally don't, you're new to the
organization, they want to meetthe new person.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I'll tell you I have a few regrets looking back on my
career, A few.
There's times where I'm like Ishould not have handled that the
way I did I did.
Life goes on.
You learn right, you live, youlearn.
But one of the red threadregrets or if I could do it over
again is I wish I would havedone what you just suggested,
which was get out there and meetpeople, Ask for the coffee, Get
(29:39):
a habit of just asking for thecoffee.
Even when I was an individualcontributor, I wish I would have
done that, because it makes itso much more easy and enjoyable
to get work done.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
That is part of working yourlife right.
It's just feeling like you'repart of an organization that
you're connected to.
Connections are so important.
At the end of the day, we lookback and say, did I feel like I
made a difference here and whoare the people that I can look
and say, oh my God, look at thetribe.
I was able to be part of thatbuilt up, part of something.
Completely agree with you,francesca.
(30:10):
Very important.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
What you created super valuable and, I think,
unfortunately a lot of ways,unique, and I hope you get to a
place where this is more thestandard and not the exception.
How can we get there?
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Back to what I was saying earlier about the
pendulum swinging.
People and leaders could bemindful of the fact that things
are going to change and thecompanies that continue to be
committed throughout a sluggishjob market and challenging
competitive environment, theystay true to who they are.
They're the ones who are goingto win at the end of the day.
(30:46):
They're the ones who are notgoing to lose their talent.
Let's think about this.
On the other side, all of thoselaw firms that capitulated to
the administration and actuallyin many ways destroyed their
brand, hurt their culture andtheir values, and they've had
some of their top lawyers whoare walking out the door saying
I'm not going to be part of thisLaw students who got out of law
(31:09):
school.
They don't want to interviewwith those organizations.
So there's a big price to payfor abandoning what managed you
as an organization just becauseyou can or because the times are
tough.
In fact, when the times aretough is when you really need to
double down and just be evenmore vigilant about what matters
(31:29):
to you and how you want to runyour organization.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Joan, are you up for some rapid round questions?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I am ready.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
This can be one word answers.
This can be as long as you'dlike to take it, but really
quick.
Whatever comes to top of mind,Okay jumping in.
It's 2030.
What's your prediction aboutwhat work looks like?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
One exciting thing is , I think we're all going to
have AI agents who are going tobe reading our emails for us and
making our travel plans andmaybe scheduling our doctor's
appointments.
So those are things I'm superexcited about.
But I want to answer thatquestion by saying here's what I
hope.
I hope that by 2030, thehuman-centered jobs are more
(32:24):
valued and are highercompensated, and by that I mean
the teachers, the EMTs, thecaregivers, the therapists.
I hope that AI will have helpedautomate so much of the roles
that can be automated that wewill really see the need for
these people to be doing thegreat job that they do.
That's my hope.
I like that.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
That's a good one.
What is one?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
thing about corporate culture that you'd like to just
see die already.
Personality assessments, color,myers-briggs Dis I like to see
them all go far away.
I believe that they labelpeople, and I have seen them do
more damage inside anorganization than them.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
I agree with you.
I think they're fun and it'sinteresting if it's like
personal introspection.
But too often they can beweaponized and people make them
their whole personality whenthat's not the intent.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Let me just tell you I was talking to somebody who
was leaving the organization andthey were looking for their
next role.
We were talking and they saidthey did colors in their
organization.
This person said every singleperson on the HR leadership team
was a red.
So that kind of said you're nota red, you're probably not
going to be on the HR leadershipteam.
Anyway, that is a bugaboo ofmine which I've actually had for
some time.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Okay, what is the greatest opportunity that orgs
are actually missing out on?
Speaker 1 (33:45):
So I think it's cross-functional data.
Data exists in silos insideorganizations.
First of all, we know it's notpristine and I think part of
this whole going to AI is goingto be like cleaning up data and
making it good.
But if companies can use thepower of cross-functional
information, they're going to beable to streamline
(34:07):
decision-making, become way moreefficient as organizations.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
How many times have we all worked in an organization
and found out three otherdepartments are working on a
similar project Exactly?
A little more personal.
What's on your playlist rightnow?
What music are you listening to?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
So I'm listening to a guy named Leif Volderweck Okay,
check him out.
One of his songs I really likeTransatlantic Flight.
I also love Kim Petraeus.
She does a version of the oldKate Bush song Running Up that
Hill, and if you like that songand there's many different
versions of it I would say checkout her version of it and her
(34:46):
video of doing it at OutsideLands in San Francisco in 2022.
She's so cool and it's justcompletely joyful.
And then I'm a big fan ofFlorence, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
I love her.
You did a really beautifulcollaboration.
Do you know the artist BloodOrange?
Yes, have you heard hercollaboration with him?
I have not.
So this is a great tip.
Very good, put that in your asFrancesca says, be in your
bonnet for this weekend.
Go look it up, it's really good.
What are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It could be audiobook or old school pages, so I'm an
old school pages person, soright now I'm reading the Night
Watchman by Louise Erdrichperson, so right now I'm reading
the Night Watchman by LouiseErdrich.
I stopped on the Pulitzer, Ithink, in 2020.
But I would say that the bookthat I've loved the most that
I've read in the last eightmonths has been James by
Percival Everett, and I wouldhighly recommend that book.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
What do you really admire?
Could be personal, professional.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
There's so many people in my life and
historically I admire, but I'mgoing to pick one person Right
now.
I'm going to pick Laura Steinem.
We need to stand on theshoulders of the people who came
before us talking about andreporting on women's issues, on
(36:07):
reproductive rights, on equalpay, on health care.
And the thing I love about her,she's 91 years old.
She's still with us.
She absolutely never sold out.
She's my shout out, she's myhero right now.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
What's one piece of advice that you've received, or
just something that's yourpersonal piece of advice that
you want someone to know youwould give everybody today?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
If I could pick a couple, because there's career
and then there's personal.
So if I think about careeradvice, I want to say careers
are long.
Mine was very long, was 47years long, and that means that
you're going to have some jobsthat are crappy jobs, and,
rather than running away fromthem, a lot of those crappy jobs
(36:46):
are incredibly important andmeaningful.
They're either the lessons youneeded to learn, they're people
you needed to know, or, in onecase, it was a ticket I needed
to punch.
It was experience.
I needed to get that next job,which was my goal, and so
embrace the crappy jobs.
They're going to happen the wayof life.
(37:07):
The other thing I would say,though, from a career
perspective, is know your brandand who you are.
Know your why, know what isimportant to you.
So let me give you an example.
When I would meet with CEOs andI was doing job interviews for
chief people officer roles, Iwould always say to them I
(37:27):
believe the best human resources, I believe my job as the head
of human resources is to helpmanagers be the best managers
they can be.
Only people who work for me atHR is my team, the rest of the
people who work for managers andhow they feel about the
organization is oftentimes howthey feel about their managers.
Do they feel like they'regetting feedback and they're
being coached and they're beingdeveloped?
So I would say, if you don'tagree with that, perfectly fine,
(37:51):
but that means I'm not theright person for you, I'm not
right for the role.
Go hire somebody else.
So that's just an example of aphilosophy that I developed
early on that stayed true for methroughout my career and I
would use it as an evaluationtool as I was deciding where I
was going to go next.
And then the personal adviceand this is not profound.
(38:12):
Everybody on this who'slistening to this has probably
heard this, but it's a lessonthat we don't always take to
heart, and I can even give you arecent example that I did not,
and I regret it.
Make sure you tell the peoplein your life who have been
meaningful to you, who you'velearned from, what they've done
(38:33):
and how they've helped you, andbe specific.
When I was starting my careermany years ago, I was at a large
financial services company inBoston and as a very junior
person, I had the opportunity towork with the CEO of that
company, and it was remarkablethat I had that opportunity
because he was here and I waslike and I got to know him and
(38:54):
we worked on a few projects andI learned so much from him and I
had so many great stories aboutthis person as a human, as a
leader.
Two months ago he died at 98years old and I wrote his wife a
note and I said I want to tellyou stories about your husband
that come from a youngprofessional.
And I told her these stories.
(39:15):
She wrote back to me and shesaid it was very profound for
her to hear these and she saidthey were so jizzing with Jim.
The stories were so Jim and shesaid I wish he could have read
this.
And I'm like I wish I couldhave written it.
I wish I had written it.
So don't wait till thatperson's gone and you're telling
their spouse.
It's great to tell their spouse, but let them know when you
(39:36):
have the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
What a gift to give someone to bring the spirit of
their loved one back through thestory.
That's a really beautiful giftto give someone.
Joan, it's been awesome to chatwith you today.
Tell us where people can findyou.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
I'm on LinkedIn Also.
I'm part of the Chief PeopleOfficer Forum, so if there's
anybody who is a Chief PeopleOfficer and wants to join a
network, to build community andwants to quarter, have topics of
interest and experts who aregoing to be able to talk about
topics, we've got one coming upnext week and it's all like AI.
What is this going to mean foryou people, officers?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
We will link to your LinkedIn and the CPO forum.
There's nothing stronger thancommunity, so definitely check
that out, joan.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
Thank you, joan.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
It was great to be with you.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us
myself, mel Plett and FrancescoRanieri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you loved this conversation
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
(40:42):
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagrams, so please join usin the socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(41:02):
Take care friends.
Bye friends.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye friends.
So if you really care about the success of your
organization, if you care aboutrevenue, then you got to care
about the people who are leadingthe organization and your
talent.
It is a no-brainer.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to your Work.
Friends.
I'm Francesca and I'm Mel, andwe're breaking down work so you
get ahead.
For those of you that don'tknow, every year, mel and I sit
down and think about what arethe topics that we want to talk
about, and then we think aboutthe guests we want, and we're
always looking for people thatare actively in it.
They're either a really deepsubject matter expert, they're
(00:44):
on the line in the seat doingthe role and they're really able
to think about how you get someof this stuff done.
So we can always make workbetter, and one of the things
that we were always wonderingabout are how do you create
these cultures where people feellike they can really do their
best work?
And that brought us to JoanBurke.
Joan, if you don't know, her isjust a real deal CHRO.
(01:07):
She is now a board member,she's an advisor.
She's been a chief peopleofficer at places like DocuSign,
marketo Responses.
She's been a CHRO at smallcompanies, major companies, in
multiple different industries.
She's been there, she's donethat and she's been able to
create these cultures wherepeople can do the work of their
lives, and we wanted to talk toher about how she did that.
(01:30):
What did you think of thisconversation, mel?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I loved it because as an HR person lifelong HR person
like Joan I really appreciatethe hard line that she took in
every interview, which was she'shuman-centered and it's human
first and if that doesn't alignthen it's not the right fit for
her.
And because of that alignmentshe's been able to go in and
build these beautiful workplaces.
(01:54):
I'm just really inspired by thelegacy she leaves behind and
the message it leaves for others.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It takes a whole village to create a culture
where people feel like they cando the work of their lives.
Joan gives you the playbook forhow she did this, what needed
to be in play at DocuSign, atResponsys.
She's.
Also gave us some tips Ifyou're not in these types of
companies, what you can doyourselves to create the work of
your life and if you'reinterviewing, what you can look
(02:20):
for and some questions you canask to see if a company is going
to enable you to do the work ofyour life.
This conversation, to me, wasjust fantastic.
Joan's the real deal, and withthat, here's Joan.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
At DocuSign, you really created something super
special, right?
It was a culture where thatemployee experience enabled a
lot of folks to, as you call it,do the work of their lives.
In today's environment, thingsare changing.
How do you make the businesscase to do that today?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So the business case is the same as the business case
was when we did it in DocuSign.
I joined them in 2017.
Even though it's an employer'smarket, the best talent always
has options.
You should never walk away fromthat or feel as though I have
to prioritize revenue.
I have to prioritize this and Idon't have time or this isn't
important.
(03:22):
It is as important now as itwas when we were doing it.
Now, when we were doing it hypercompetitive, the market was
crazy.
Everybody's trying to get goodtalent.
Now.
I would say it's important todo that because you need to keep
your good talent.
The pendulum will swing.
It will go from being anemployer's market to being an
(03:42):
employee's market at some pointin time, and the companies that
invest in their people now, whenthat happens, they're not going
to see them walking out thedoor.
They're going to have anincrease in retention and I
think it's a false narrative tosay it's an either or.
If you're going to prioritize abusiness, you're going to
prioritize people.
So it's absolutely as importantnow as it was seven years ago,
(04:03):
when the market was verydifferent than it is today.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Francesca and I often say people fuel your business.
So absolutely Both are so superimportant right Well, at the
end of the day, if you thinkabout it, revenue happens
because you've got great talent.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
These things do not happen on their own.
It always is people that areresponsible for that success in
organizations, always.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Oh, and they're the base of the business.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, so you have a very good point.
I think the thing that won'tchange is that people want to be
able to do work and do the goodwork and to do the work of
their lives.
I don't think that's going tochange.
I really don't that intrinsicneed want desire.
At DocuSign.
That was what you were reallystriving for people to have is
(04:47):
had some great partnerships inthe leadership team there.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Certainly Dan Springer, the CEO, scott Ulrich,
who was initially the CMO,became the COO.
These are people who totallygot it and we thought really
long and hard about how do wedifferentiate DocuSign and so
candidate is going to be lookingat a number of different
companies.
What is going to make them wantto come to DocuSign?
If a candidate is going to belooking at a number of different
companies, what is going tomake them want to come to
DocuSign versus go to Adobe, goto Google?
(05:28):
How do we make sure, also, thatthe values that we stood for
authentically DocuSign and notones that you could go to any
website and pick up the wordsand they're fine, but there's
nothing special about it?
This is where the working lifecame in.
This is what we said.
People, as you just said,francesca, people want to do
(05:49):
great work.
Employees do not come to workto do a crappy job.
They don't.
They don't come to work to do aboring job.
They come to work because theywant to succeed, they want to
contribute and they want to do agreat job.
So we thought, looking back,when people view their career,
what we hoped is that peoplewould say donkey, sign.
(06:10):
That's where I did the work ofmy life.
This was a marketing thing,because Scott is a great
marketer.
We intentionally didn't say thebest work of your life, because
you don't need best.
It's like the work of your life.
That vacation I had the time ofmy life, so we had to
operationalize it.
We had to bring it to life andwe talked about it as being
actually really important and,in many ways, a personal
(06:32):
statement.
I, joe, wouldn't know what oneof my employees' work of their
life was until I spent time withthem and we understood how we
were going to help that personget there and what were the
opportunities, what was thedevelopment?
And then, when it came time todo our low engagement surveys,
one of the questions we alwaysask is are you doing the work of
your life?
If you're not doing the work ofyour life, what do you need
(06:54):
from the company?
What do you need from yourmanager to do the work of your
life?
We put it into self-evaluations.
We put it into feedback.
It was an employment brand forus.
Your recruiters are going to goto job fairs, they're going to
have a booth, they're going tohave a banner.
It might as well be somethingcool that makes some sense, and
it did.
Our recruiters would say peoplewould go by and say, whoa, work
(07:16):
your Life, what's that allabout?
There were a lot of componentsto the work of your life.
We also invested very heavilyin our managers in terms of
developing and training them.
We had a work your lifemanagement program that was
based on four pillars.
That were pillars that webelieve were unique to DocuSign,
that we want to help be ourmanagers.
So it was very real and I'llgive you an example.
(07:38):
I was on LinkedIn the other dayand there's a woman who I hired
, probably about six monthsbefore I left DocuSign day, and
there's a woman who I hiredprobably about six months before
I left DocuSign.
She just left now.
So we're talking three yearsago.
She was talking about goinginto the organization, but when
she was talking about DocuSign,she said I did the work of my
life.
So I thought, wow, it stuck.
It stuck, at least for peoplewho were there.
(07:59):
I think when we created thatprogram, the work your life
starts up.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
That, to me, is a real test.
It's one of the real tests ofhow do you have a brand that you
know sticks, and one is justpeople using the language, which
is huge.
And what I love about the workyou did, whenever I think about
a brand and thinking about ifyou're going to say we want you
to be able to do the work ofyour life no-transcript DocuSign
(08:56):
stood for, which is anenvironment and the climate.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And we say DocuSign helps people, it saves paper,
paper saves trees.
So we're all about DocuSign forforests.
And I would talk to candidatesand I could see the excitement,
enthusiasm when I would say letme tell you what we're about,
let me tell you about this workyou're doing, let me tell you
how much we care about theenvironment in the world.
There were a lot of reallygreat components of the DocuSign
(09:22):
culture that kind of cametogether in a way that I think
made people feel really goodabout the organization.
And one of the things you mightask is how did you know that it
really delivered results forthe company?
And I think it's hard to takeup one program and say, okay, I
could connect the dots and thisis the exact revenue we got from
this because of that.
But I can tell you that everytime we did anything around this
(09:45):
, anytime we talked about thework-year life and when we would
fortunately for us get greatreviews from our employees on
Glassdoor, we saw an incrediblespike in the number of resumes
that were coming in.
People want to work for acompany that they feel good
about.
Dan Springer is the CEO.
His approval rating onGlassdoor was 98.
(10:07):
We were always in like the top15 companies in technology.
That's how we can say it made adifference because our
employees cared about writinggreat reviews, and those are the
only reviews we cared about.
Docusend was not a pay-to-playcompany.
We were not going to ever beinformed.
We were never going to pay tobe part of some sort of a best
place to work.
That's what we felt the realvalue was.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
That's what our employees really said.
Yeah, out of curiosity, theday-to-day feel like the vibe.
I am very much on vibes lately,joan, when you think about the
vibe at Dacusign when the workof your life was hitting on all
pistons After launch.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
It's embedded in the DNA.
What did it feel like, just asa leader and an employee?
Once they got it and that was amore from an employee
communication perspective wewould do mid-year feedback
sessions.
So it wasn't about evaluations,it was just feedback, and they
were having conversations withtheir managers and we would
really target those disingenuousabout work your life, figure
out whether this is working forpeople.
So there was some excitement,enthusiasm.
We went into a pandemic and theworld changed overnight in
(11:16):
March of 2020.
Now, I would say, because wehad built such a foundation with
our employees about caringabout them, about their
development, about work yourlife, we were able to carry that
through during the pandemic.
For any sheep people officer, Iwill tell you that in that
47-year career I had the hardestwork I ever did was running a
(11:40):
people organization during thepandemic.
Yeah, trying to figure out howdo we best support our employees
through their mental health,through daycare.
Hiring managers get comfortablearound hiring people over Zoom,
where they're like I neverhired somebody I didn't meet in
person.
You better do it becausesomebody else is going to hire
them.
So I think we took the samelevel of care during that period
(12:03):
.
It looked a little different.
It was around support.
There was a lot of differentthings we did to help our
employees be successful and itpaid off, I would say, in states
.
So the work shifted a bit and Iused to say the companies that
are win when this pandemic isover are the companies where the
employees feel really good andfelt very taken care of during
(12:27):
that period.
And DocuSign did it.
And the reason why DocuSign didit it was a leadership team
that actually believed that thiswas ultimately what's good for
the employees.
It's going to be good for thecompany.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, it sounds like, even in, I would say, a crisis
situation, which COVID,especially in HR it was.
I'm just going to say bonkers,absolutely bonkers.
Right, but I love the fact thatlens to enable people to do the
work of your life, to trulycare for people.
It sounds like you're makingdecisions through that lens.
It didn't change just becausewe were going through a very
(12:59):
traumatic time.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
You feel like you turned the volume up on that
care during that time turned itup and we saw the feedback that
we got in our employeeengagement surveys, which we did
at least two a year or more.
The last survey that we did, wegot 6,000 comments in that
survey 6,000 comments and Danand I would read every single
(13:24):
one of those comments.
He'd read them.
I was going to read them.
There was no way I was notgoing to be a patient animal
reading those comments.
But they actually produce somuch more richness than really
just the raw data and we heardpeople talk about how well they
felt supported by their manager,and not just from a corporate
perspective, and not just theprograms and the benefits that
(13:45):
we put in place, which were allnew.
During that period we were ableto really pressure test that the
work we were doing and thedecisions we were making and the
investments we were making inagain these benefits and trying
to make it easy for people totake care of their kids and work
from home and have Zoom andparents who were ill, and it was
(14:08):
thank you, Francesca.
It was a bonkers period,there's no other word for it.
And then, if you think about it, we went from that to the great
resignation right which can Isay something that lasted about
15 minutes, Like really that wasdone and now the pendulum has
(14:29):
swollen completely the other way.
So one of the things I wouldsay is think about the time
you're in and what you need todo, but know that things change
and can change very quickly.
You don't abandon all thethings that matter to you, that
are important to yourorganization, just because you
can and you can.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Out of curiosity, how important is it to have your
peer group, the CMO, the CTO,any of the C's your CEO or your
board?
How important is it to havethem on board when you're trying
to make these kind of decisionsand, probably more importantly,
stick to the plan when shit'shitting the fan?
How important is that so?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
well, I critical.
If the only people who areenthused about these programs
that are willing to keep themalive, as the HR team, that's
doomed, it's just never going towork.
But having that consistencywhen the shit hits the fan,
you're still not going to walkaway from your principles and
your values as an organization.
You're still going to invest inemployees, you're still going
to care about the development,you're still going to give them
(15:27):
feedback.
You cannot do that without theleadership involved.
The reason why I think we wereso successful at DocuSign is
because Dan was so authentic inboth belief in these programs
and talked about it.
We did all hands meetings everyquarter and during COVID we did
a lot more of them just to makesure we stayed connected to
people.
He never abandoned the thingsthat were like the pillars of
(16:01):
who we were as an organization.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
You've done this several times over now DocuSign.
You did this at Responsys.
What was the secret sauce?
You have to have the CEO.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
If you don't have the CEO, then it's going to be lips
of risk, because that's whopeople look to, that's their
coming to door, that's wherethey're getting their insight
and their messaging.
And it has to be authentic.
It cannot be lips of riskbecause people see through
falsehoods and I always say themost important leadership is
authentic leadership.
It's be who you are and withall those organizations I've had
(16:34):
really authentic leaders whowould speak to the programs, who
would talk about the importanceof employees in the team and
helping them be successful.
It worked.
But if you don't have that, Iwould say it's running uphill
Everything dies If HR is runningit.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
you have to have that buy-in.
Let's say your CEO is a skeptic.
How do you fight through thatskepticism?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
You kind of build a business case right and the
business case is talent drivessuccess.
It just does.
And even in a bad job market,which we're in right now, the
best talent always has options,always has options, how bad it
is, they always do.
So if you really care about thesuccessful organization, if you
care about revenue, then yougot to care about the people who
(17:18):
are leading the organizationand your talent.
It is a no-brainer in some ways.
And here's what I am excitedabout.
I feel like in manyorganizations and particularly
I'm working with some VCs theyget it, they totally get it, and
where a lot in the past youmight say, oh VCs, I don't want
their portfolio companies tospend a lot of money on
(17:38):
marketing and HR, I'm seeing VCsactually pushing their
portfolio companies and theseare companies of maybe $30 to
$50 million of revenue to hirethat cheap people officer sooner
than a lot of founders areready to do, because founders,
by the most part, they don'twant to spend money.
So I am extremely encouragedabout that.
I'm also seeing a lot ofenthusiasm for people going to
(18:02):
these smaller private companiesand not so much like the big
companies the Googles, the Metasthat people went to.
They're feeling like they'regetting an opportunity to really
be very hands-on, to be part ofa successful organization, to
see where their contribution isactually making a difference on
(18:22):
a daily basis, with lessbureaucracy, maybe less politics
.
So I think that there's a lotof opportunity for people to
seek out these smaller privateorganizations.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I coach a lot of folks who are being impacted by
layoffs right now, so I'm seeingthat trend as well.
Even if they came from thesebig megas, they're looking at
smaller orgs where they canactually feel the impact that
they have.
So that's tracking.
When you think of pushback onbudgets, we hear a lot around.
Budgets are tightening up witheverything that's happening with
AI.
Leadership's very focused onshort-term results.
(18:55):
Someone making the businesscase.
What advice would you give tothem?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I would say that the Work of your Life program at
DocSign it was not a heavyinvestment at all.
These were things we werealready doing.
We're already doing performancereviews.
We were already doing employeeengagement surveys.
We already cared about whatpeople felt on Glassdoor.
We were already going to jobfairs.
It's not true that these thingscost a lot of money.
Get that off the table.
(19:19):
Just say it's bullshit.
Right here there is investment,for sure is when you're
investing in developing peopleand particularly leaders.
So when we created the Workyour Life Management Program,
that was an investment.
We again decided that it wasreally extremely important to us
to have great managers in thecompany.
We needed to put togetherprograms, we needed to design
(19:41):
them, we needed to facilitatethem.
So there were certain placeswhere you may be able to say,
okay, I'm going to cut back alittle bit on this one and maybe
use some different approacheswhere I don't spend quite the
same money, but caring aboutyour corporate culture, being
articulate about your corporateculture and reinforcing your
corporate culture it doesn'tcost money.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Those human components, those day-to-day
interactions.
That's free.
You can change that tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
One of the things that we did at DocuSign is we
had a mentor program andeverybody wanted mentors, right.
So we're like, all right, howare we going to make this,
operationalize this and makethis make sense?
And we realized, when you asksomebody to be your mentor, it's
a big deal right, and it's timethis is going to take.
But one of the things that wedid, which is like a skinny
version of a mentor program, iswe said anybody will go and have
(20:31):
a cup of coffee with you Halfhour Well, great.
So if somebody called me up andsaid, john, I was watching the
all-hands meeting last month, Ithink you did a great job with
the presentation.
I'm really trying to work outskills.
Can we have a cup of coffee inhalf hour and just talk about
that?
It's like absolutely so.
There are ways to just skivvyback certain programs and things
that are less intense or maybenot so time consuming and not so
(20:55):
expensive.
You just gotta be a little bitthoughtful and creative about it
.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
If your budget's tight, what are the three areas?
You'd say?
This is where you double down.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
It's really about helping grow people.
Managers we always cared abouthow we help individual
contributors grow and succeedtoo.
But at the end of the day, if Ihad a dollar of investment, I'm
going to put 75 cents of itagainst managers and 25 cents
against the individualcontributors, because I know
that ultimately the value thatthose individual contributors
are going to get is becausethey've got a better manager who
(21:28):
cares about their development,who cares about their career,
who thinks about not just jobopportunities but actually
assignments that are going tohelp them grow and develop.
And I always say that the mostpowerful thing we can do to help
people grow is put them, givethem on-job assignments to see
how they stretch, see how theygrow.
The investment you make on theindividual contributor side pays
off by really overinvesting,maybe in the managers.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I love to hear it because I was just at a
conference where a room full ofpeople, when we asked how many
people invested in theirmanager's training and
development, maybe 5% of theroom raised their hand, which
was really disheartening to see.
So you heard it here, folks 75cents for your managers.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
It's nuts to me.
I'm going to make a CatholicItalian reference here, but you
can cut this.
So in Italian cooking, a lot ofdishes start with the trinity,
which is the onion, the carrotand the celery.
It is the substance that makeseverything right, it's the base,
mirepoix, if you will.
And I always think the trinityof talent development is
(22:30):
onboarding, manager developmentand coaching.
If you had to pick three andmanager development, you're very
good.
Point, joan, 75 cents of that,right.
The biggest onion little bit ofcarrot, little bit of celery.
The onion is the managerdevelopment.
The data's there, the resultsare there.
You could do absolutely noformal training whatsoever, but
(22:50):
if you had an amazing manager,you're set.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I love that.
I've never heard about theTrinity Battalion cooking.
I'm going to use that.
Seriously, no gosh, God, reallyno.
We grew up Irish.
My mother was Italian.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
There you go, there you go.
We're big fans.
We're big fans.
Let's say you're an employee,you don't have this.
What can somebody do as anindividual contributor, no
matter what their circumstance?
Create the work of their lifefor themselves.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Oh man, that's a tough one.
Yeah, I know they're not in apowerful position to be able to
do that, which many people arenot.
Sometimes I say find itelsewhere, and I'm not saying
leave your job right.
For some people it might beleave your job, but for many
others that's unrealistic.
It just is not the right marketfor people to do that.
(23:39):
But find your tribe right.
Find the people who arelike-minded, who have the same
sets of values.
Find that network where,through connection and through
conversations and throughlearnings about how people are
dealing with those challengesinside their organizations, that
you can take back for yourselfto be able to say I'm not
getting from my company, but Iam getting what I need from this
(24:02):
group of people up there.
One of the things that'sdifficult is developing a
network is hard, it takes a lotof work, but it can be so
rewarding.
I remember during the pandemicI had this network of about 20
chief people officers and we metevery week for like just an
hour and it was the good, badand the ugly advice in terms of
(24:29):
the thing that was working, thethings that weren't working.
It was so important, it was sopowerful that if you don't have
that if you can find a way tocreate that, I'm just, I have
just always thought that couldbe incredibly rewarding to just
have whatever mind appears.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
It's interesting to see what other people are doing
commiserate on the good, bad andugly, because that's every job.
There's always things.
There's something so importantabout being part of a community.
Just like, you're not alone inthis, no matter what stage you
are in your career, becausethere's a lot of human messy
feelings that go along withevery single stage in your
career.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Absolutely.
I could go into depth withDiWalt on this call about those
crappy jobs I had and how hardthey were and the lesson I
learned and how I hoped duringthat period.
And that's like experiences,right.
The other thing I would say isyou can create a network of
people who have similar valuesat you but are at different
(25:23):
stages of their career, so haveseen the work and experienced it
and can look back and say, allright, let me tell you, when I
was in my 30s, the world wasdifferent, but a lot of the
experiences and the challengesthat you have there's definitely
similarities.
So here's how I cultivatepeople for all different
(25:44):
generations and I think you'llfind it very worthwhile.
Best advice.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Curious about.
On the flip of this, whereyou're interviewing for a
company, what are the tells?
What are the tells that saythis is a great culture, this is
a culture that's going tosupport you in doing the work of
your life?
Are there tells people can seefrom the outside?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
There are.
You want to make sure that it'snot just the recruiters who are
telling you that story.
Their job is to serve a certainorganization.
You need to drill down.
So when you're talking to anorganization and hopefully
having a number of differentinterviews with people so you
get a good sense of that companyand some of them would be peers
, some of them would be amanager is that you're paying
(26:22):
very good attention to whatthey're saying and you're
actually teasing out from themwhether or not what you're
hearing from these recruiters ifin fact they're real McCoy.
And then you check out Glassdoor, you check out Blind, you look
at what people are saying insidethe organization to know
whether it's for real or whetherit is just give talk.
(26:42):
So you got to do your ownhomework and it does help, as I
said, if you know your why andyou can actually articulate your
why, to have the people sittingacross from you, from the
company, explain why your why iseither going to work or not
work in this company.
You should put them on the spota little bit in a nice kind of
way.
That's how you tease this out,right.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
What were some of your go-to questions?
To tease it out.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Well, I think the biggest thing would be to say
tell me what people three layersdown this organization are
saying about this company.
Tell me what you're hearingfrom your teams.
And if I was to just go aroundright now and go from desk to
desk and just kind of casuallystop and ask people questions
what is it like to work here?
(27:26):
What would they tell me?
Would they tell it to?
What would they say?
And ask those questions and saywhat are your employee
engagement scores?
What are people saying aboutthe employee experience here?
Have you seen progress or arethings going backwards?
So it's just doing a lot of duediligence and interviewing the
people in the company as much asthey're interviewing you with
(27:53):
you.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
There's what you ask in the interview, but then
there's what really happenedwhen you get there on day one,
your first 90 days in a company.
How do you further tease thisout?
Like, how do you figure out whoare the secret decision makers?
What are the things that aregoing to make it a better
experience?
What are your questions inthose first 90 to help you?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Who are the savvy insiders?
You got to figure them out andsome of that is asking.
Again, it's asking a lot ofpeople, a lot of questions and
owning your own onboarding right.
So it isn't just I'm themanager, here's the playbook,
you have the free people to talkto.
It's like all right.
(28:28):
I got to drill down even more.
I want to speak with these fourpeople over here.
I want to know more aboutwhat's going on in the IT
department, not relying on aroutine onboarding process, but
create something for yourselfthat's robust.
And I would also say, as aninsider from Chief People
Officer perspective, onboardingis so important.
(28:48):
Those first 90 days, thosefirst six months, it's how you
show up, because you want toknow what's going on, but you
want people to know you.
My mother used to say it's notwho you know, it's who knows you
that matters.
And that's really right, mom,that's what I would do.
I would be really thoughtfulabout who I wanted to meet with
(29:09):
and just make it happen.
Just make it happen.
And people don't say no, theyreally don't, you're new to the
organization, they want to meetthe new person.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I'll tell you I have a few regrets looking back on my
career, A few.
There's times where I'm like Ishould not have handled that the
way I did I did.
Life goes on.
You learn right, you live, youlearn.
But one of the red threadregrets or if I could do it over
again is I wish I would havedone what you just suggested,
which was get out there and meetpeople, Ask for the coffee, Get
(29:39):
a habit of just asking for thecoffee.
Even when I was an individualcontributor, I wish I would have
done that, because it makes itso much more easy and enjoyable
to get work done.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
That is part of working yourlife right.
It's just feeling like you'repart of an organization that
you're connected to.
Connections are so important.
At the end of the day, we lookback and say, did I feel like I
made a difference here and whoare the people that I can look
and say, oh my God, look at thetribe.
I was able to be part of thatbuilt up, part of something.
Completely agree with you,francesca.
(30:10):
Very important.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
What you created super valuable and, I think,
unfortunately a lot of ways,unique, and I hope you get to a
place where this is more thestandard and not the exception.
How can we get there?
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Back to what I was saying earlier about the
pendulum swinging.
People and leaders could bemindful of the fact that things
are going to change and thecompanies that continue to be
committed throughout a sluggishjob market and challenging
competitive environment, theystay true to who they are.
They're the ones who are goingto win at the end of the day.
(30:46):
They're the ones who are notgoing to lose their talent.
Let's think about this.
On the other side, all of thoselaw firms that capitulated to
the administration and actuallyin many ways destroyed their
brand, hurt their culture andtheir values, and they've had
some of their top lawyers whoare walking out the door saying
I'm not going to be part of thisLaw students who got out of law
(31:09):
school.
They don't want to interviewwith those organizations.
So there's a big price to payfor abandoning what managed you
as an organization just becauseyou can or because the times are
tough.
In fact, when the times aretough is when you really need to
double down and just be evenmore vigilant about what matters
(31:29):
to you and how you want to runyour organization.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Joan, are you up for some rapid round questions?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I am ready.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
This can be one word answers.
This can be as long as you'dlike to take it, but really
quick.
Whatever comes to top of mind,Okay jumping in.
It's 2030.
What's your prediction aboutwhat work looks like?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
One exciting thing is , I think we're all going to
have AI agents who are going tobe reading our emails for us and
making our travel plans andmaybe scheduling our doctor's
appointments.
So those are things I'm superexcited about.
But I want to answer thatquestion by saying here's what I
hope.
I hope that by 2030, thehuman-centered jobs are more
(32:24):
valued and are highercompensated, and by that I mean
the teachers, the EMTs, thecaregivers, the therapists.
I hope that AI will have helpedautomate so much of the roles
that can be automated that wewill really see the need for
these people to be doing thegreat job that they do.
That's my hope.
I like that.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
That's a good one.
What is one?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
thing about corporate culture that you'd like to just
see die already.
Personality assessments, color,myers-briggs Dis I like to see
them all go far away.
I believe that they labelpeople, and I have seen them do
more damage inside anorganization than them.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
I agree with you.
I think they're fun and it'sinteresting if it's like
personal introspection.
But too often they can beweaponized and people make them
their whole personality whenthat's not the intent.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Let me just tell you I was talking to somebody who
was leaving the organization andthey were looking for their
next role.
We were talking and they saidthey did colors in their
organization.
This person said every singleperson on the HR leadership team
was a red.
So that kind of said you're nota red, you're probably not
going to be on the HR leadershipteam.
Anyway, that is a bugaboo ofmine which I've actually had for
some time.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Okay, what is the greatest opportunity that orgs
are actually missing out on?
Speaker 1 (33:45):
So I think it's cross-functional data.
Data exists in silos insideorganizations.
First of all, we know it's notpristine and I think part of
this whole going to AI is goingto be like cleaning up data and
making it good.
But if companies can use thepower of cross-functional
information, they're going to beable to streamline
(34:07):
decision-making, become way moreefficient as organizations.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
How many times have we all worked in an organization
and found out three otherdepartments are working on a
similar project Exactly?
A little more personal.
What's on your playlist rightnow?
What music are you listening to?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
So I'm listening to a guy named Leif Volderweck Okay,
check him out.
One of his songs I really likeTransatlantic Flight.
I also love Kim Petraeus.
She does a version of the oldKate Bush song Running Up that
Hill, and if you like that songand there's many different
versions of it I would say checkout her version of it and her
(34:46):
video of doing it at OutsideLands in San Francisco in 2022.
She's so cool and it's justcompletely joyful.
And then I'm a big fan ofFlorence, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
I love her.
You did a really beautifulcollaboration.
Do you know the artist BloodOrange?
Yes, have you heard hercollaboration with him?
I have not.
So this is a great tip.
Very good, put that in your asFrancesca says, be in your
bonnet for this weekend.
Go look it up, it's really good.
What are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It could be audiobook or old school pages, so I'm an
old school pages person, soright now I'm reading the Night
Watchman by Louise Erdrichperson, so right now I'm reading
the Night Watchman by LouiseErdrich.
I stopped on the Pulitzer, Ithink, in 2020.
But I would say that the bookthat I've loved the most that
I've read in the last eightmonths has been James by
Percival Everett, and I wouldhighly recommend that book.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
What do you really admire?
Could be personal, professional.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
There's so many people in my life and
historically I admire, but I'mgoing to pick one person Right
now.
I'm going to pick Laura Steinem.
We need to stand on theshoulders of the people who came
before us talking about andreporting on women's issues, on
(36:07):
reproductive rights, on equalpay, on health care.
And the thing I love about her,she's 91 years old.
She's still with us.
She absolutely never sold out.
She's my shout out, she's myhero right now.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
What's one piece of advice that you've received, or
just something that's yourpersonal piece of advice that
you want someone to know youwould give everybody today?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
If I could pick a couple, because there's career
and then there's personal.
So if I think about careeradvice, I want to say careers
are long.
Mine was very long, was 47years long, and that means that
you're going to have some jobsthat are crappy jobs, and,
rather than running away fromthem, a lot of those crappy jobs
(36:46):
are incredibly important andmeaningful.
They're either the lessons youneeded to learn, they're people
you needed to know, or, in onecase, it was a ticket I needed
to punch.
It was experience.
I needed to get that next job,which was my goal, and so
embrace the crappy jobs.
They're going to happen the wayof life.
(37:07):
The other thing I would say,though, from a career
perspective, is know your brandand who you are.
Know your why, know what isimportant to you.
So let me give you an example.
When I would meet with CEOs andI was doing job interviews for
chief people officer roles, Iwould always say to them I
(37:27):
believe the best human resources, I believe my job as the head
of human resources is to helpmanagers be the best managers
they can be.
Only people who work for me atHR is my team, the rest of the
people who work for managers andhow they feel about the
organization is oftentimes howthey feel about their managers.
Do they feel like they'regetting feedback and they're
being coached and they're beingdeveloped?
So I would say, if you don'tagree with that, perfectly fine,
(37:51):
but that means I'm not theright person for you, I'm not
right for the role.
Go hire somebody else.
So that's just an example of aphilosophy that I developed
early on that stayed true for methroughout my career and I
would use it as an evaluationtool as I was deciding where I
was going to go next.
And then the personal adviceand this is not profound.
(38:12):
Everybody on this who'slistening to this has probably
heard this, but it's a lessonthat we don't always take to
heart, and I can even give you arecent example that I did not,
and I regret it.
Make sure you tell the peoplein your life who have been
meaningful to you, who you'velearned from, what they've done
(38:33):
and how they've helped you, andbe specific.
When I was starting my careermany years ago, I was at a large
financial services company inBoston and as a very junior
person, I had the opportunity towork with the CEO of that
company, and it was remarkablethat I had that opportunity
because he was here and I waslike and I got to know him and
(38:54):
we worked on a few projects andI learned so much from him and I
had so many great stories aboutthis person as a human, as a
leader.
Two months ago he died at 98years old and I wrote his wife a
note and I said I want to tellyou stories about your husband
that come from a youngprofessional.
And I told her these stories.
(39:15):
She wrote back to me and shesaid it was very profound for
her to hear these and she saidthey were so jizzing with Jim.
The stories were so Jim and shesaid I wish he could have read
this.
And I'm like I wish I couldhave written it.
I wish I had written it.
So don't wait till thatperson's gone and you're telling
their spouse.
It's great to tell their spouse, but let them know when you
(39:36):
have the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
What a gift to give someone to bring the spirit of
their loved one back through thestory.
That's a really beautiful giftto give someone.
Joan, it's been awesome to chatwith you today.
Tell us where people can findyou.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
I'm on LinkedIn Also.
I'm part of the Chief PeopleOfficer Forum, so if there's
anybody who is a Chief PeopleOfficer and wants to join a
network, to build community andwants to quarter, have topics of
interest and experts who aregoing to be able to talk about
topics, we've got one coming upnext week and it's all like AI.
What is this going to mean foryou people, officers?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
We will link to your LinkedIn and the CPO forum.
There's nothing stronger thancommunity, so definitely check
that out, joan.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
Thank you, joan.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
It was great to be with you.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us
myself, mel Plett and FrancescoRanieri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you loved this conversation
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
(40:42):
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagrams, so please join usin the socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(41:02):
Take care friends.
Bye friends.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye friends.
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